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the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 09:15 PM
David Carr is David Carr no matter what offensive system you put him in. Rosenfels looks like a 5 year veteran and Carr still looks like a rookie. Bring all the excuses you want for the face of the franchise, but Sage will be starting by week 6.

BigDTexansFan
08-19-2006, 09:21 PM
David Carr is David Carr no matter what offensive system you put him in. Rosenfels looks like a 5 year veteran and Carr still looks like a rookie. Bring all the excuses you want for the face of the franchise, but Sage will be starting by week 6.

ALERT ESPN, Houston Sports Media anyone else you can think of David Carr faces 1st team defense and Sage sees 2nd or 3rd D's, but you have him already to start against 1st team D's rest of season. I wish I was as much of a genius as you are:pigfly: . I think I will wait for rest of lynch mob to arrive with the torches and ropes thanks anyways:sarcasm:

TFL
08-19-2006, 09:22 PM
David Carr is David Carr no matter what offensive system you put him in. Rosenfels looks like a 5 year veteran and Carr still looks like a rookie. Bring all the excuses you want for the face of the franchise, but Sage will be starting by week 6.


10/17 for 99 yards, and their D was making him hurry alot becuase of the o-line and RB not picking up the blitz in the first couple of series. I don't see why you are saying Carr looked like a rookie he didn't do bad.

TexanSam
08-19-2006, 09:25 PM
I thought David Carr played well. He did seem kind of jitterish but his play improved as the 1st half went on. The first two series' weren't good, but he didn't play poorly by any means. I believe Carr is the man. Kubiak probably thinks so too.

jerek
08-19-2006, 09:31 PM
I was going to tell you to stuff it ... but Sage has thrown some beautiful balls this game.

My jury's still out on this one (Sage vs. second team, Carr vs. first team, big difference in playcalling for both Rams D and Texans O in two halves) but Sage is impressing at this point.

the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 09:32 PM
Sage has a much better understanding of this offense and looks a lot more comfortable. He will take Carr's job before this season is over.

TexanSam
08-19-2006, 09:35 PM
Wasn't there just a 20+ page thread on this earlier this week?

jerek
08-19-2006, 09:36 PM
Sage has a much better understanding of this offense and looks a lot more comfortable. He will take Carr's job before this season is over.

I will agree that he looks more comfortable at this point. I wouldn't say he has any better "understanding." Even still, Carr was seeing a ton more pressure in the first half. It's too much apples to oranges at this point.

jerek
08-19-2006, 09:37 PM
Wasn't there just a 20+ page thread on this earlier this week?

And there will be this week.

chuckm
08-19-2006, 09:38 PM
And there will be this week.


Hey Mr. Insider Guy :) ...... it'll be 30+ this week ...

BradK10
08-19-2006, 09:39 PM
Sage has a much better understanding of this offense and looks a lot more comfortable. He will take Carr's job before this season is over.

then get ready to lose football games

jerek
08-19-2006, 09:41 PM
I think we can safely say that if Sage is the Man, then Kubiak will start him. I think Kubiak has made his position on favortism very clear.

cbnjwill
08-19-2006, 09:44 PM
sage really looks good and carr looks like he normally does inconsistent and eractic, but carr doesnt have to worry for awhile anyway about his job the texans want him to do well. they are gonna give him plenty of opportunity. but so far through two game sage looks to be the better qb. thought peek and morency looked really good.peek is there best pass rusher that guy can make plays had two sacks and batted a pass in the air that williams should have intercepted.

the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 09:48 PM
I think we can safely say that if Sage is the Man, then Kubiak will start him. I think Kubiak has made his position on favortism very clear.

Agreed. Unlike Capers, Kubiak's number one priority is winning football games.

jerek
08-19-2006, 09:51 PM
Agreed. Unlike Capers, Kubiak's number one priority is winning football games.

It's almost weird watching our games so far. I'm so used to seeing gym class football from the boys in white. My craw of PE teacher could have called better plays than Palmer and Pendry did. All of this winning-style NFL play calling, intelligent personnel decisions ... it's still like something out of a dream. That sounds corny but it's not meant to be; it's true. I watch our games with this irrational fear in the back of my mind, afraid I'll wake up in 2005 and I'll be back to watching Capersball.

Hulk75
08-19-2006, 09:51 PM
David Carr is David Carr no matter what offensive system you put him in. Rosenfels looks like a 5 year veteran and Carr still looks like a rookie. Bring all the excuses you want for the face of the franchise, but Sage will be starting by week 6.
Starters are starters and 2 and 3 string guys are 2 and 3 string guys, come with all the reasons why Sage would be starting, I guess you just forget about this.

Okay you only have 2 more weeks to convince us.:ok:

TexanSam
08-19-2006, 09:52 PM
It's almost weird watching our games so far. I'm so used to seeing gym class football from the boys in white. All of this winning-style NFL play calling, intelligent personnel decisions ... it's still like something out of a dream. That sounds corny but it's not meant to be; it's true. I'm afraid I'll wake up in 2005 and I'll be back to watching Capersball.

I won't say that it feels like a dream, but I get where you're coming from. Having an actual NFL offense that moves the ball and isn't predictable is nice.

Hulk75
08-19-2006, 09:53 PM
10/17 for 99 yards, and their D was making him hurry alot becuase of the o-line and RB not picking up the blitz in the first couple of series. I don't see why you are saying Carr looked like a rookie he didn't do bad.
Because they dont like him and it bugs the (you know) what out of them that they dont all agree.

David played very well PERIOD, some of you CRACK ME UP.

Hulk75
08-19-2006, 09:56 PM
Sage has a much better understanding of this offense and looks a lot more comfortable. He will take Carr's job before this season is over.
Bets NOW, you WILL have a AVATAR of David that I pick and next to it you will say I am sorry!

If the other way goes down I will apologize to you and say that you were right and I was wrong.

DEAL?

BradK10
08-19-2006, 09:58 PM
It's almost weird watching our games so far. I'm so used to seeing gym class football from the boys in white. My craw of PE teacher could have called better plays than Palmer and Pendry did. All of this winning-style NFL play calling, intelligent personnel decisions ... it's still like something out of a dream. That sounds corny but it's not meant to be; it's true. I watch our games with this irrational fear in the back of my mind, afraid I'll wake up in 2005 and I'll be back to watching Capersball.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I felt my Pop Warner dads I helped coach could have done better than last year. Not once...not a SINGLE DAMNED TIME was I ever confident going into a game with that incompetent coaching staff before a Texans game. Now, I love it. We've got intelligent football guys who know what they are doin.

Mr.Scarface
08-19-2006, 10:03 PM
What is the old saying: "The most popular player on the team is always...the backup QB...." There is a reason Miami didn't re-sign Sage and went out got Harrington as the backup......they didn't think Sage could do the job. Sage had alot of PT, and obviously Miami didn't believe in him. He is a good QB for a SHORT period of time...not the long haul.

the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 10:04 PM
Bets NOW, you WILL have a AVATAR of David that I pick and next to it you will say I am sorry!

If the other way goes down I will apologize to you and say that you were right and I was wrong.

DEAL?

I'm not changing my avatar, but I will make a bet with you. I have a few nice David Carr rookie cards. I will pick a nice one and put it up against something of similar value.

Hulk75
08-19-2006, 10:07 PM
What did CArr do, What I dont know what you guys want from this guy and really I dont care anymore have fun pulling this kid down, keep trying yuou only have 2 weeks left....................I wish we could all get together so I could use my voice instead of pounding my key board to heck.

David Carr is our man, get freaking use to it.


O yea we are 2-0 baby!

the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 10:10 PM
David Carr is our man, get freaking use to it.

I disagree and believe that he will be benched this year. What are we going to bet on it?

Hulk75
08-19-2006, 10:11 PM
I'm not changing my avatar, but I will make a bet with you. I have a few nice David Carr rookie cards. I will pick a nice one and put it up against something of similar value.
Okay we will get together after 2nd period..............:swing:

If the bet is to man enough I understand. I mean it should be a lock for you right, your so sure about it. what do you have to loose?

bigcarlos
08-19-2006, 10:12 PM
I'm not changing my avatar, but I will make a bet with you. I have a few nice David Carr rookie cards. I will pick a nice one and put it up against something of similar value.
On a serious note, I stopped collecting about 10 years ago or so, but does Carr's Rc really have much value? Just curious.

LORK 88
08-19-2006, 10:15 PM
What is the old saying: "The most popular player on the team is always...the backup QB...." There is a reason Miami didn't re-sign Sage and went out got Harrington as the backup......they didn't think Sage could do the job. Sage had alot of PT, and obviously Miami didn't believe in him. He is a good QB for a SHORT period of time...not the long haul.
Preach it!! Doesnt anyone else remember the threads and all the people saying "start Ragone"? Wheres he playing again?

Hulk75
08-19-2006, 10:16 PM
Preach it!! Doesnt anyone else remember the threads and all the people saying "start Ragone"? Wheres he playing again?
Love it..............

the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 10:17 PM
Okay we will get together after 2nd period..............:swing:

If the bet is to man enough I understand. I mean it should be a lock for you right, your so sure about it. what do you have to loose?

I don't plan on losing. I'll post a picture of the card sometime tomorrow and PM you to see what you want to put up. After tonight I'm more convinced than ever that Carr is not ever going to be a good NFL QB.

TexanSam
08-19-2006, 10:18 PM
I don't plan on losing. I'll post a picture of the card sometime tomorrow and PM you to see what you want to put up. After tonight I'm more convinced than ever that Carr is not ever going to be a good NFL QB.

More convinced than his poor play from last year? Geez...

the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 10:19 PM
On a serious note, I stopped collecting about 10 years ago or so, but does Carr's Rc really have much value? Just curious.

A lot less than they did when I bought them in 2002. A lot of people lost a lot of money on him, including me. His cards are now like a stock you just hold onto because it's nearly valueless and not worth selling.

the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 10:22 PM
More convinced than his poor play from last year? Geez...

He looked the same tonight as he did last year. I don't see any difference other than he actually had some time to throw tonight. Of course he still couldn't find receivers downfield. And he ran into a sack just like year. Honestly, I see the same QB that has been stinking it up for 4 years.

For the record, I couldn't care less who the QB is as long as it is the best player on the roster. Right now, Sage looks like the best QB on the roster and needs to see reps with the first team next week.

Marcus
08-19-2006, 10:28 PM
It's almost weird watching our games so far. I'm so used to seeing gym class football from the boys in white. My craw of PE teacher could have called better plays than Palmer and Pendry did. All of this winning-style NFL play calling, intelligent personnel decisions ... it's still like something out of a dream. That sounds corny but it's not meant to be; it's true. I watch our games with this irrational fear in the back of my mind, afraid I'll wake up in 2005 and I'll be back to watching Capersball.
Man, Jerek! You were taking the opposite tack over on the game thread.:confused:

the wonger need food
08-19-2006, 10:29 PM
And if you're going to leave negative rep because you are so enamored with Davie Carr that you can't stand the thought of someone questioning his abilities, be a man and leave your username. I will not leave negative rep for people just because they did it to me... promise.

Ibar_Harry
08-19-2006, 10:29 PM
The game winning score was the drive at the end of the 1st half. Rose's last two possessions were 3 and out. Carr did just fine and played against the 1st team defense. The more he played the better he got. Rose was the opposite.

What everyone should be happy about is we have two QB's who can win and we won't be bothered if one goes down due to injury or is having a bad day. Every QB has those days.

They did different things under Carr than they did under Rose. We will wait and see, but the offensive line had a few problems to begin the game. It took a while for Spencer to settle down and Wand had to come in first and give Spencer a blow. Carr has always been a slow starter.

Remember, the 1st drive or two the team is always trying to figure out what the other team is doing and then make adjustments. Our coaching staff didn't do that last year, but they are this year. Remember, Sage is getting an opportunity to watch what the other team is doing it and how they are doing it before he comes in.

Just like the days in Oakland when old man Blanda came into the game. He was a different style and the opposition's defense was planned around stopping someone else. The end result was a highly successful QB.

The same thing applys here. They plan for Carr, because that's who they want to stop. As we move through the season we are going to get better and better. I keep saying 13-3. Looks like we can relax, because it looks like we have effective replacements for DD.

Our kickoff return game isn't as good as last year, but it looks like PBUC can make the punt return game a whole lot better. With every team there are differences each year. But no one expects us to do anything and that is just great with me. I hope they all come in here thinking we a 2-14 bust.

jerek
08-19-2006, 10:40 PM
Man, Jerek! You were taking the opposite tack over on the game thread.:confused:

Overall, the playcalling is still an absolute 180 from last year; especially offensively. Just because I don't think it's as good as it can be or should be doesn't mean I don't appreciate the absolute new dimension its taken on so far this season.

jerek
08-19-2006, 10:41 PM
A lot less than they did when I bought them in 2002. A lot of people lost a lot of money on him, including me. His cards are now like a stock you just hold onto because it's nearly valueless and not worth selling.

What were they worth? It's been decades since I've seen new rookie cards for any player worth more than lunch money.

Marcus
08-19-2006, 10:44 PM
I understand what you're saying Ibar, I really do.

But just once . . . just once . . . JUST FREAKING ONCE . . . I would like to see Carr drop back, plant his feet, and loft a nice soft touch pass in the bucket like Sage did with Joppru tonight.

Do you think that would be asking too much?

jerek
08-19-2006, 10:48 PM
I understand what you're saying Ibar, I really do.

But just once . . . just once . . . JUST FREAKING ONCE . . . I would like to see Carr drop back, plant his feet, and loft a nice soft touch pass in the bucket like Sage did with Joppru tonight.

Do you think that would be asking too much?

Carr actually has done that numerous times, several last year that I remember (Mathis vs Cleveland, AJ vs Jax, to name what occurs to me off the top of my head.) Talking Carr is like politics; all party line, impossible to find or discuss the facts that exist somewhere in between the extremes.

Marcus
08-19-2006, 11:00 PM
Carr actually has done that numerous times, several last year that I remember (Mathis vs Cleveland, AJ vs Jax, to name what occurs to me off the top of my head.) Talking Carr is like politics; all party line, impossible to find or discuss the facts that exist somewhere in between the extremes.

Those were bombs, where he throws it up top. I'm talking about intermediate touch passes like the one Rose threw tonight. Don't tell me you don't know the difference. I've watched every single Texans game. Again, point out a game where he threw one like Rose did tonight?

And spare me the party line crud. I'm not one of those Wonger Carr haters.

TEXANS84
08-19-2006, 11:01 PM
I could care less, this is the stats I care about:

http://www.nfl.com/standings

chuckm
08-19-2006, 11:02 PM
This thread will be last week's "Now do I seem ridiculous?" thread .....

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-19-2006, 11:06 PM
Does Carr have a blind spot?

Hardcore Texan
08-19-2006, 11:27 PM
I have a great idea....let's debate the same ole crap day in and day out until it is time to debate the same ole crap again...what do you say?


Let Kubiak do his thing, we are off to a better start than ever before, overall the whole offensive unit looked sloppy the first couple of possessions and then they got into a rythm and looked pretty good. How is that any different from any other NFL game ever?

Carr looked off a bit at first, settle in and made good, sound decisions and throws, and got bettter as the game went on. We had protection problems early on also, our RB's weren't picking up the blitz i.e. Lundy. Morency lit it up, and did a good job with blocking, if DD can't go, he will be our starter. Rosenfels looked good, but faded a bit.

Defense did alot of bending but not breaking, had stops when it counted, Mario had more of a presence, and Peek tore it up.

Overall, we should be happy with our Texans, we have things to work on but should be very solid all around, good coaching can help that happen I hear.

Instead of all this excessive whining about who should be starting and blah, blah, blah. Let's give it a chance, and let the coaches and players do their jobs and enjoy the ride for a change.

Marcus
08-19-2006, 11:52 PM
Instead of all this excessive whining about who should be starting and blah, blah, blah. Let's give it a chance, and let the coaches and players do their jobs and enjoy the ride for a change.

Good point, and I agree. I'm done with this thread.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-20-2006, 12:06 AM
Here we go again, you need to find a new favorite team Wonger, please follow your history on Sage before you post, preseason is preseason, Sage has been bounced from team to team, with only 2 starts in history, do you really think the Dolphins and Redskins would just dump this guy if he was a star waiting to shine, highly doubt it.......Sage is not a true reflection of a first string QB, 99.9% of the people on this board never heard of him until he came here......Only time will tell, Kubiak will play his cards right, :poker: This guy is a joke wait and see.....I'd rather have Joey harrington as a back up or Marcus Vick.....I promise you this guy looks good now but let's see him against the 1st string.....If I remember correctly everyone out here on the boards said give Dave Ragone the start MVP of NFL Europe now look at him, 3 teams later, from the Texans releasing him, to the Bengals now the Rams....this guy is a backup nothing more, he is no Peyton Manning, One man will not save this team, neither can David Carr save this team alone, only all 53 final members can make this team a winner, give Kubiak time to make David Shine, just like he has done with Plummer.........

SESupergenius
08-20-2006, 12:09 AM
Gee, another Wonger hate the Carr thread. Same old, same old. I guess all the other QB's that were 2nd and 3rd string that had a good game against their opponents 2nd and 3rd strings should be given the starting job as well. Nice deep and thoughtout analysis. :superman:

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-20-2006, 12:21 AM
Thanks for the back-up SESupergenious.........Wonger take a good look in the mirror :tease: and find a new team to root for already, we all know how you feel about David Carr already ok......:ok:

HJam72
08-20-2006, 12:27 AM
Rosenfels did better against their 2nd team D than Carr did against their 2nd team D tonight. I know Carr has had great passes in the past and great games in the past and I've defended many times before, but tonight his backup outplayed him. He has developed a habit of not throwing for anything more than 5 yds (not counting run-after-catch), unless it is an 8 yd. stop-and-turn-around catch. I want to see him throw passes like he did in the first half of year 3 or in the Cardinals game last year and stop being a take-whatever-leftovers-the-D-allows you QB.

We all know that Carr has made DD the Texans #1 all-time receiver. Now, we have a lot more legitimate receivers on the field and not just a double or triple-teamed AJ and the dump-off to DD. I want to see Carr start acting like it.

In his defense, I will say that he did alright, just not good enough. He didn't suck or anything, like last preseason.

Ibar_Harry
08-20-2006, 02:05 AM
Rosenfels did better against their 2nd team D than Carr did against their 2nd team D tonight. I know Carr has had great passes in the past and great games in the past and I've defended many times before, but tonight his backup outplayed him. He has developed a habit of not throwing for anything more than 5 yds (not counting run-after-catch), unless it is an 8 yd. stop-and-turn-around catch. I want to see him throw passes like he did in the first half of year 3 or in the Cardinals game last year and stop being a take-whatever-leftovers-the-D-allows you QB.

We all know that Carr has made DD the Texans #1 all-time receiver. Now, we have a lot more legitimate receivers on the field and not just a double or triple-teamed AJ and the dump-off to DD. I want to see Carr start acting like it.

In his defense, I will say that he did alright, just not good enough. He didn't suck or anything, like last preseason.

And a quote from David in the Chronicle:

"There are still some things we have to fix," Carr said. "The Rams were bringing some funky blitzes early, and it took us some time to adjust. Once we started running the ball better, we settled down.

"We moved the pocket a little after getting the early pressure. We're not a team that's going to drop back and throw 40 yards down the field. We're going to run the ball well and then have the quarterback get on the perimeter and make things happen."

What he is saying is he is doing what they want him to do. He is not to drop back and throw bombs. I too would like to see that once in a while, but I believe he is doing what he is told to do. Yes, he made mistakes, but so did SPENCER and the O-line in the beginning of the game. They had to take Spencer out for a few plays and replace him with Wand. When they finally got their nerves calmed down they began to play well. David had 3 nice drives. One lead to a chip shot missed field goal, one was a TD, and the other lead to field goal in the final seconds of the 1st half. Actually the lead David left with was the final margin of victory. Sage did not increase the lead by his play, but he certainly made possible for us to win as we stayed even point wise with the Rams in the 2nd half.

In fact Sage was 3 and out in the last two possessions in the 4th Qtr and we were lucky to win the game. Sage and Carr are a find tandum and will do well. They each bring a different game to the field which will make it unsettling for defenses to play against us. They are quite opposite in many respects. I will wait to listen and read what Kubiak has to say. I think he has a different perspective on what is happening out there.

HJam72
08-20-2006, 02:16 AM
D.Carr 10-17-0, 99 yards.

S.Rosenfels 6-9-0, 99 yards and 1 touchdown.

That's going to equate to one huge difference in QB rating for one game. I saw where Rosenfels had some longer passes, but he's using the same offense that Carr is. It took Carr nearly twice as many attempts to equal the same amount of yardage and then there's the 1 touchdown pass by Rosenfels.

Most of Carr's 99 yards is run-after-catch stuff, it seems to me, and that's not a good thing when only looking at Carr's performance, IMO. It is only one game though, and we'll see how the next 2 games go.

Texans Pride
08-20-2006, 02:18 AM
I think we can safely say that if Sage is the Man, then Kubiak will start him. I think Kubiak has made his position on favortism very clear.

Ok, am four hours late to this thread, and am probably going to repeat what is said somewhere in this tread. Jerek is 100% correct. The one thing we have seen from Kubs is that he doesn't care where you were drafted, how you were acquired, or how much you make, the best person for the positions will play. I don't know which QB will prevail, but I am confident that the best QB for the job will be placed on the field.. . . I just want to win, I don't care who helps bring them in.


GO TEXANS!

Doom Capers
08-20-2006, 02:19 AM
put carr in against a second and third string and let sage start and this thread will be deleted. no way in hell sage is a better qb than carr

Ibar_Harry
08-20-2006, 02:19 AM
D.Carr 10-17-0, 99 yards.

S.Rosenfels 6-9-0, 99 yards and 1 touchdown.

That's going to equate to one huge difference in QB rating for one game. I saw where Rosenfels had some longer passes, but he's using the same offense that Carr is. It took Carr nearly twice as many attempts to equal the same amount of yardage and then there's the 1 touchdown pass by Rosenfels.

Most of Carr's 99 yards is run-after-catch stuff, it seems to me, and that's not a good thing when only looking at Carr's performance, IMO. It is only one game though, and we'll see how the next 2 games go.

When Sage went in he had an O-line that had calmed down and were playing well. He was playing against the 1st string and there is a difference. I'm not saying Sage doesn't have talent, but he was in a different situation. Again, he did not increase our lead, rather he kept it the same.

KKHouston
08-20-2006, 02:36 AM
Gee, another Wonger hate the Carr thread. Same old, same old. I guess all the other QB's that were 2nd and 3rd string that had a good game against their opponents 2nd and 3rd strings should be given the starting job as well. Nice deep and thoughtout analysis. :superman:


Now all we need is SWT_BOUND to chime in, and the two smartest non-coaches on the board will have represented...:tease:

BradK10
08-20-2006, 02:42 AM
A lot less than they did when I bought them in 2002. A lot of people lost a lot of money on him, including me. His cards are now like a stock you just hold onto because it's nearly valueless and not worth selling.


that's what you get for investing your money in a fickle commodity like sports cards

BradK10
08-20-2006, 02:45 AM
D.Carr 10-17-0, 99 yards.

S.Rosenfels 6-9-0, 99 yards and 1 touchdown.

That's going to equate to one huge difference in QB rating for one game. I saw where Rosenfels had some longer passes, but he's using the same offense that Carr is. It took Carr nearly twice as many attempts to equal the same amount of yardage and then there's the 1 touchdown pass by Rosenfels.

Most of Carr's 99 yards is run-after-catch stuff, it seems to me, and that's not a good thing when only looking at Carr's performance, IMO. It is only one game though, and we'll see how the next 2 games go.

Take into account also that the first couple series of the game were scripted, and the Rams brought some blitzes they didn't adjust to. For the non-football people out there...scripted means "these are the first 20 plays we are running, no matter what the other team does or no matter what the situation"

TK_Gamer
08-20-2006, 03:53 AM
D.Carr 10-17-0, 99 yards.

S.Rosenfels 6-9-0, 99 yards and 1 touchdown.

That's going to equate to one huge difference in QB rating for one game. I saw where Rosenfels had some longer passes, but he's using the same offense that Carr is. It took Carr nearly twice as many attempts to equal the same amount of yardage and then there's the 1 touchdown pass by Rosenfels.

Most of Carr's 99 yards is run-after-catch stuff, it seems to me, and that's not a good thing when only looking at Carr's performance, IMO. It is only one game though, and we'll see how the next 2 games go.

you forgot to mention one thing, in fact all you guys jumping on the dump carr bandwagon forgot to mention the fact that Carr got blitzed by first team defense repeatedly, not all out blitz every down but extra rushers almost every down, and he started with lundy who missed several pass blocks reportedly. rosenfells got the benefit of morency for the start of his shift who pass blocked better than any of our backs, no you can say thats just one blocker and only a running back. ask peyton manning if he would like to have edge back. and not because of his rushing yards. ask trent green if he would like to have tony richardson back. and priest holmes back. so dont compare apples to sour grapes. Carr is a starter and sage is an "also ran" quit trying to get Carr to choke so you can get someone esle you can turn on.

HJam72
08-20-2006, 07:38 AM
you forgot to mention one thing, in fact all you guys jumping on the dump carr bandwagon forgot to mention the fact that Carr got blitzed by first team defense repeatedly, not all out blitz every down but extra rushers almost every down, and he started with lundy who missed several pass blocks reportedly. rosenfells got the benefit of morency for the start of his shift who pass blocked better than any of our backs, no you can say thats just one blocker and only a running back. ask peyton manning if he would like to have edge back. and not because of his rushing yards. ask trent green if he would like to have tony richardson back. and priest holmes back. so dont compare apples to sour grapes. Carr is a starter and sage is an "also ran" quit trying to get Carr to choke so you can get someone esle you can turn on.

Calm down. I'm not saying that Carr is done (yet), I'm just saying that I believe he was outplayed in this game. I don't feel that way about game 1. I just call it how I see it.

As far as scripting the first 20 plays goes, I hate to knock Kubiak, but I think that's really stupid. It seems that most coaches do these things, especially in preseason, but not deciding these things on the fly is just asking for a melt-down, if you ask me. I mean, how 'bout if I go play a game of chess and make the first 20 moves without any regard for what my opponent is doing? I won't even get through the first 20 moves, that's what. I'll get my butt handed to me. At least have the plays you want, but run them in what ever order seems appropriate for the moment. Sheesh.

I don't know about pre-determined plays and all that, but I believe Carr was out-played by his back-up in game 2 after winning game 1. If I were deciding these things, I would also make sure that Carr plays with Morency next game, although that might not be at the start of the game for either of them. :) We need to mix things up, start people who haven't been starting, give others a chance to prove their even better against 3rd string, etc., and see what happens.

kingh99
08-20-2006, 07:46 AM
Carr looked bad with the panicked side arm shuttle crap. I don't think the dude can see further than 10 yards. Rosenfelds was about 4 times better so allowing for the second string defense I'll admit to him being only 3 times better.

"Originally Posted by TK_Gamer
you forgot to mention one thing, in fact all you guys jumping on the dump carr bandwagon forgot to mention the fact that Carr got blitzed by first team defense repeatedly"

Great point. And what makes you think that won't be the mode against David. It's not like it hasn't been darned effective. David will face relentless pressure because he hasn't proven he can burn it.

HJam72
08-20-2006, 07:48 AM
Carr faced the second team D and so did Rosenfels. That is what I'm basing my decision on--how they both did against the 2nd team D. I don't care how Carr did against 1st team or how Rosenfels did against 3rd or 4th string players. Against the 2nd team D, Carr did alright and Rosenfels did better.

This is only a one game decision. The drama goes on. :)

HJam72
08-20-2006, 07:51 AM
Hey, let's shut up the nay-sayers and play Mario only in the 2nd half. :)

HJam72
08-20-2006, 07:59 AM
I'll tell you what else I would do:

LET CARR CALL HIS OWN FREAKING PLAYS. He's proven he can do that. I know that it's not as necesarry now....well, shoot, I guess it is if we're scripting the first 20 freaking plays. All that planning and then, oh....well, what'ya know....they're blitzin' us. I guess we'll just keep running the script and get our butts handed to us. Yeah....that'll work just fine.

D-Vizzl
08-20-2006, 08:10 AM
Everything will be a little more clearer next week, let's just wait and see. The only thing I can say is everyone has a point, it's preseason yeah and Rosenfels went up against lesser talent but, if anyone has tivoed or taped the game go back and focus on DC go through his progressions, very crappy and he's still focusing on the primary WR, if anyone doesn't see this take off the blinders man. I believe Carr has some competitive ways about him and he will do enough to stave off Sage, not that he has to though.

Hulk75
08-20-2006, 08:27 AM
Hey, let's shut up the nay-sayers and play Mario only in the 2nd half. :)
:yahoo: .............funny

HeartofHouston
08-20-2006, 08:28 AM
It's kinda of funny me and my gf was talking about this last night... She was a die-hard Carr fan.. no matter all the Young talk she was all about Carr but for the first time there was another twinkle in her eye Sage Rosenfels. She said to me..

"We should consider putting that guy in instead of Carr".. I then explained to her "Look Sage plays against 2nd team players and Carr plays against 1st team players, that's a big difference".. and this is the part that caught my attention she then replies.. "Well it doesnt matter who he's playing against the guys throwing the most accurate passes that I've seen, did you see that long pass to that Lewis guy? What does it matter who you're playing against when you can throw a pass that beatiful??"

So I thought about and instead of being so "Carr-Tunnel-Visioned" that conversation open my eyes.. Sage knows how to the read defense and he's a very accurate passer. Does it really matter if it's Champ Bailey or Undrafted John Doe? if you read the defense correctly and you put the ball where only your reciever can get to it then the answer is no. Cause if you look on that long bomb to Derrick Lewis the only way that defender was getting a hand on that is if he had a jet pack strapped to him.. and I dont think they've made those legal yet..

So I'm not saying off with Carr's head or anything like that I'm saying that if Carr is not working out i'm not as hesitate to put Rosenfels in there cause i'm confident he'll do a solid job.

Hookem Horns
08-20-2006, 08:40 AM
then get ready to lose football games

We are ready. Carr has gotten us used to that.

texan279
08-20-2006, 08:40 AM
AMEN on the carr statement. I warned people last year and the year before that . Carr is horrible. Last year the O-line was called the problem, the year before that it was play calling and no weapons. When will people realize that carr totally sucks. He holds the ball to long and can't read a D.

Sage Rosenfels? I doubt it, but anything is better than carr. At least everyone will be able to see that his best play is run towards the sidelines.

Andre Johnson can't wait to get off this team or get a real QB.

Ah and here come the Carr bashers...On that last comment you made, do you have a link or source? Do you know Andre Johnson personally? Or is this just speculation on your part?

Hulk75
08-20-2006, 08:44 AM
I cant wait for week one, I got my thread all ready to go.

Hookem Horns
08-20-2006, 08:47 AM
Carr looked bad with the panicked side arm shuttle crap.

"Panicked side arm" is an excellent way to describe this guy's "mechanics" or lack thereof. It's also funny how all the Carr apologist/Vince Young bashers were bashing VY about his side arm motion before the draft. I don't think I have ever seen David Carr put a nice arch on the ball like Rosenfels did lastnight. Actually, I don't know if that is possible using the "panicked side arm" motion.

Hopefully Carr will be ready to "play well" for week one.

Hulk75
08-20-2006, 08:49 AM
"Panicked side arm" is an excellent way to describe this guy's "mechanics" or lack thereof. It's also funny how all the Carr apologist/Vince Young bashers were bashing VY about his side arm motion before the draft. I don't think I have ever seen David Carr put a nice arch on the ball like Rosenfels did lastnight. Actually, I don't know if that is possible using the "panicked side arm" motion.
Your right he never did...................:rolleyes:

texan279
08-20-2006, 08:50 AM
"Panicked side arm" is an excellent way to describe this guy's "mechanics" or lack thereof. It's also funny how all the Carr apologist/Vince Young bashers were bashing VY about his side arm motion before the draft. I don't think I have ever seen David Carr put a nice arch on the ball like Rosenfels did lastnight. Actually, I don't know if that is possible using the "panicked side arm" motion.

Hopefully Carr will be ready to "play well" for week one.

Just off the top of my head I remember the pass Carr made to Bradford against the Jags last season that Bradford dropped. The pass last night from Sage got the job done, but looked like a wounded duck.

beerlover
08-20-2006, 08:55 AM
I'm just happy that we finally have a QB debate here in Houston :) also wonder why it took 5 years to develop one :confused:

The Texans could have used a similar QB like Sage Rosenfels from their inception to save Carr's hide and while I see some improvement in Carrs tendancies in the pocket (forcing himself to stay inside the tackles) I beleive the affects may not be reversable. Sage only has Carr by one inch, but stands much taller in the pocket & dance's on his toes while Carr seems to drop his frame down in a bundled, croach'ed position, which has to impact his field of vision :chicken:

I will close by saying if Carr becomes injured at least we can have some confidence & hope that the Texans remain competitive. Also if anyone else noticed I like the chemistry on the sidelines between coach Kubes and Sage :shades:

DominickDavisFan76
08-20-2006, 09:07 AM
I wish one of the games would be televised around the U.S. like...are any of the preseason games gonna be on the NFL Channel?

but ya..um about the post....

David Carr is playin the first team D so i doubt that a guy who plays 2nd and 3rd team D is gonna start, and plus 10-17, 99 yards isnt bad at all, I see DC improving a lot and being possibly a Pro Bowler....in 2 years.....

football freak
08-20-2006, 10:19 AM
Banks should have been the starter last year and Rosenfals or someone they will no doubt trade for at a later date will this year.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2006, 11:09 AM
I'm not going to see the game until tomorrow. But... just to play Devil's Advocate...

Yeah, Sage is playing against the 2nd and 3rd stringers but he's also playing with the 2nd and 3rd stringers... and Morency who is probably going to be a 1st stringer.

Now, having said that, I think it's hard for us sitting out here watching the game to really judge the performance. We know what we "see" but we don't really know what we're looking at or what we should be looking for. The coaches know what plays were called and where the ball should have gone and how quickly it should have gotten there.

The bottom line is that with Kubiak, I really expect the best player to find his way to the field. If Sage is better, he'll be playing.

On the issue of scripted plays, it's really a strategy thing. You run a certain group of plays to set up what you're going to be doing later. Chess is a very bad analogy. Think of it more like a weird chess match. Let's say you're going to play one single person 100 times. You don't worry too much about losing the first few games because you're trying to learn how your opponent plays and thinks so that you can win more games later. So you play through certain openings and see how they react.

powerfuldragon
08-20-2006, 11:12 AM
i'm on this bandwagon

CaptainPatriot
08-20-2006, 11:56 AM
I thought David Carr played well. He did seem kind of jitterish but his play improved as the 1st half went on. The first two series' weren't good, but he didn't play poorly by any means. I believe Carr is the man. Kubiak probably thinks so too.

Go back and look at the only sack of the game. Carr went right into the block to the outside shoulder instead of stepping up into the pocket. He threw the same exact pass to AJ this week as last week. AJ had to become a DB both times. It is time to try Sage with the 1st team. Carr hasn`t not been accurate. Sage puts the ball right there almost every time!

Vinny
08-20-2006, 12:04 PM
Go back and look at the only sack of the game. Carr went right into the block to the outside shoulder instead of stepping up into the pocket. He threw the same exact pass to AJ this week as last week. AJ had to become a DB both times. It is time to try Sage with the 1st team. Carr hasn`t not been accurate. Sage puts the ball right there almost every time!
Kubiak was chewing Carr out on the side right after that early sack. I thought Carr looked like he ususally does...not real impressive except for short safe passes and can't get the ball up the field from the pocket. Most of his passing yards are yac off of a short pass.

Honoring Earl 34
08-20-2006, 12:07 PM
I did not like Carr almost getting sacked and fumbling in field goal range ... that ball has got to be out of there . I believe Carr has not found his happy place , he's been either to slow with his reads or he looks like a T.Rex throwing just to get rid of the ball .

To me the ? is will he settle down or is this as good as it gets . I will also give him the fact that he has taken a beating that is the equal to a mental ruptured ACL .

football freak
08-20-2006, 12:10 PM
was our o-line so bad that Carr's beating was all their fault?

skillz24
08-20-2006, 12:17 PM
Sage has a much better understanding of this offense and looks a lot more comfortable. He will take Carr's job before this season is over.

apparently this is sage rosenfels father and trying to talk logic with him is an exercise in futility!

the wonger need food
08-20-2006, 12:18 PM
What were they worth? It's been decades since I've seen new rookie cards for any player worth more than lunch money.

I believe his UD SP card was going for $400 when they first came out. It's steadily dropped since. I haven't seen one on ebay recently, but you could pick one up for considerably less today.

beerlover
08-20-2006, 12:18 PM
forget everything we know for a minute about David Carr or Sage Rosenfels & judge them as if you were scouting them as NFL prospects. 1st thing you look for is production (how well the offense produces points and moves the ball) mental alertness, competitiveness, toughness, leadership, arm strength, athletic ability & footwork. just to name a few. David displays toughness thats for sure & has arm strength he never uses because he rarely sets in the pocket or has the time to step through on the throw, as a matter of fact this should be his strength, the deep ball. A lot's been said about David's release (sidearm, sling, casting) but usually these are short, prevent the sack dumpoffs around oncoming traffic. when given time with a lane his delivery is uninhibited and smooth with excellent velocity. David needs to continue to improve his footwork, make reads and run the playbook Kubiak calls to be more effective and the offense to be more productive.

Rosenfels does not have the arm strength or athletic ability of Carr but he does impress with his leadership, reads the defense and seems more comfortable running plays. He stands tall in the pocket, bouncing on his toes, does not lock onto targets & keeps options open, understanding coverage, displaying progression with a natural feel for Kubiak's scheme.

In the end I can easily see how David would be rated higher as a prospect, but in the actual game his mechanics tend to breakdown, fails to execute & make progressions through vaious coverages.

On the otherhand Rosenfels actually reminds me a little of Kubiak when he played while a back-up to Elway, of course he never had much of a chance to play but I doubt Carr = Elway so Sage just might be the Rage in the Cage against the Machine, or something like that (poor attempt at humor) :shades:

eriadoc
08-20-2006, 01:23 PM
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=412353&posted=1#post412353&postcount=52

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2006, 01:30 PM
was our o-line so bad that Carr's beating was all their fault?

Of course not. There was enough blame to go around: poor play calling, poor protection schemes, poorly designed plays, bad blitz pickups by the RB's, receivers not getting open, Carr not getting rid of the ball quick enough, Carr not making the correct reads quick enough, Carr running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage or eating the ball instead of throwing the ball away, etc., etc.

BUT... over the years, the line also played very, very poorly.

In general, where you choose to put the majority of the blame is usually the dividing line on whether you're pro or anti Carr. I personally think that our line played so poorly and Carr took so many sacks because of bad coaching so I'm in favor of Carr getting another chance. Some people think that the sacks are mostly Carr's fault because he's a bad player, so they're anti-Carr... or pro-Sage at this point. :)

Jwwillis
08-20-2006, 01:35 PM
ALERT ESPN, Houston Sports Media anyone else you can think of David Carr faces 1st team defense and Sage sees 2nd or 3rd D's, but you have him already to start against 1st team D's rest of season. I wish I was as much of a genius as you are:pigfly: . I think I will wait for rest of lynch mob to arrive with the torches and ropes thanks anyways:sarcasm:

Why does everybody omit the fact Sage is playing with 2/3 talent around him on O as well? Kubiak didnt recruit Sage aggressively and pay him a 2mill signing bonus for nothing. Unless a QB starts as a rookie they are all 2/3's at some point. We are not geniuses we are just stating the obvious based on performance on the field. Tillman/Kubiak/MClain...have all mentioned the same thing. I like Carr, but im not going to put on blinders, Im sure Kubiak won't.

Jwwillis
08-20-2006, 01:39 PM
Of course not. There was enough blame to go around: poor play calling, poor protection schemes, poorly designed plays, bad blitz pickups by the RB's, receivers not getting open, Carr not getting rid of the ball quick enough, Carr not making the correct reads quick enough, Carr running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage or eating the ball instead of throwing the ball away, etc., etc.

BUT... over the years, the line also played very, very poorly.

In general, where you choose to put the majority of the blame is usually the dividing line on whether you're pro or anti Carr. I personally think that our line played so poorly and Carr took so many sacks because of bad coaching so I'm in favor of Carr getting another chance. Some people think that the sacks are mostly Carr's fault because he's a bad player, so they're anti-Carr... or pro-Sage at this point. :)

I disagree, I think "most" people understand that the o-line was mainly responsible. I am one of those people. However, if the line gets better and Carr still continues to make his mistakes......Avoiding the rush is part of the QB's responsibility too.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2006, 01:53 PM
I disagree, I think "most" people understand that the o-line was mainly responsible. I am one of those people.

Well, look at it this way, with largely the same players that have been here*, our line suddenly looks at least serviceable. To me, that points to better coaching (play calling, play design, coaching the people, personnel decisions, etc.) and tends to discount that the problem was with the personnel.

* Right now, Spencer and Winston aren't really 1st stringers so they don't really count as personnel changes, yet. The biggest 1st string change is the addition of Flanagan, the rest of the guys were here but not used correctly or put into positions to be successful.

DRAMA
08-20-2006, 01:55 PM
I think we can safely say that if Sage is the Man, then Kubiak will start him. I think Kubiak has made his position on favortism very clear.


There's the best summary I've heard so far! Sage does look comfortable in a pocket. DC still looks jittery...and rightfully so, I must add. However, the best player for our team will eventually be the starting QB at some point in the next year.

tsip
08-20-2006, 02:00 PM
Kubiak was chewing Carr out on the side right after that early sack. I thought Carr looked like he ususally does...not real impressive except for short safe passes and can't get the ball up the field from the pocket. Most of his passing yards are yac off of a short pass.

Exactly! Kubiak's no dummy, so I wonder what he's really thinking about his QB situation. Without question, every team is going to pressure/rattle Carr because- even w/o sacks (1 in 2 games)- he still does not have a verticle passing game. Hey, at least he's not running out of bounds with the ball behind the line of scrimmage...yet.:cool:

DRAMA
08-20-2006, 02:02 PM
http://z.about.com/d/collectibles/1/0/Z/7/1/ecarr.jpg

I'll do it! OK...not really.


]']Carr starts against Philly ...... anybody want to put their Carr 2002 rookie card on this baby?????


:shades: :woot2 :woot2

Ibar_Harry
08-20-2006, 02:02 PM
It's kinda of funny me and my gf was talking about this last night... She was a die-hard Carr fan.. no matter all the Young talk she was all about Carr but for the first time there was another twinkle in her eye Sage Rosenfels. She said to me..

"We should consider putting that guy in instead of Carr".. I then explained to her "Look Sage plays against 2nd team players and Carr plays against 1st team players, that's a big difference".. and this is the part that caught my attention she then replies.. "Well it doesnt matter who he's playing against the guys throwing the most accurate passes that I've seen, did you see that long pass to that Lewis guy? What does it matter who you're playing against when you can throw a pass that beatiful??"

So I thought about and instead of being so "Carr-Tunnel-Visioned" that conversation open my eyes.. Sage knows how to the read defense and he's a very accurate passer. Does it really matter if it's Champ Bailey or Undrafted John Doe? if you read the defense correctly and you put the ball where only your reciever can get to it then the answer is no. Cause if you look on that long bomb to Derrick Lewis the only way that defender was getting a hand on that is if he had a jet pack strapped to him.. and I dont think they've made those legal yet..

So I'm not saying off with Carr's head or anything like that I'm saying that if Carr is not working out i'm not as hesitate to put Rosenfels in there cause i'm confident he'll do a solid job.

Again a lot of QB's start slow and even Payton does at times. What I'm judging by is what they did when it was all said and done. When Carr left the game we have a 7 point lead. When the game was over we had a 7 point lead. With less than 2 minutes to go Carr got us down into field goal range and we kicked a field goal with a few seconds left on the clock. That was a game winning type of drive.

His work in the 2nd QTR was quite good. The drives were quality with few mistakes. If I recall correctly the failed 1st drive that lead to the missed field goal actually had a penalty which cost us the drive when we got near the end zone. I believe it was holding by Lundy.

The Team, coaches and Carr had to adjust to what the Rams were doing at the beginning of the game. It always takes some time, especially when you have nothing to study, to figure out what is going to work against your opposition. The Rams are also under new coaching. Sage had the time to watch what was happening by the time he came into the game plus our offensive line had calmed down and was playing well.

Finally, I agree that Sage is not talentless. On the other hand he did not increase the lead but we maintained it and won. However, at the critical juncture of the game the fact is I believe he was 3 and out on the last two drives and we were lucky to win with a fine goal line stand. Yes, he began strong, but he finished weak. Carr began weak, but finished strong. I guess its all in the eyes of the beholder.

Think a little bit because there is more to this game. We all have our prejudices and I certainly have mine. I think Carr is a lot better than many of you will ever understand.

tsip
08-20-2006, 02:07 PM
Of course not. There was enough blame to go around: poor play calling, poor protection schemes, poorly designed plays, bad blitz pickups by the RB's, receivers not getting open, Carr not getting rid of the ball quick enough, Carr not making the correct reads quick enough, Carr running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage or eating the ball instead of throwing the ball away, etc., etc.

BUT... over the years, the line also played very, very poorly.

In general, where you choose to put the majority of the blame is usually the dividing line on whether you're pro or anti Carr. I personally think that our line played so poorly and Carr took so many sacks because of bad coaching so I'm in favor of Carr getting another chance. Some people think that the sacks are mostly Carr's fault because he's a bad player, so they're anti-Carr... or pro-Sage at this point. :)


Ok, he's not getting sacked now plus all the new 'great' things around him, so when will we see different results on the field by Carr?...just curious.

thunderkyss
08-20-2006, 02:12 PM
I did not like Carr almost getting sacked and fumbling in field goal range ... that ball has got to be out of there . I believe Carr has not found his happy place , he's been either to slow with his reads or he looks like a T.Rex throwing just to get rid of the ball .

To me the ? is will he settle down or is this as good as it gets . I will also give him the fact that he has taken a beating that is the equal to a mental ruptured ACL .


That wasn't even an almost fumble..... blind commentators, that's all. Even at full speed, you could see that was an incomplete pass.

edo783
08-20-2006, 02:23 PM
just curious.

No your not. You are just interested in starting some sort of puzzing contest so you can continue to slamm Carr.

Wolf
08-20-2006, 02:26 PM
Ok, he's not getting sacked now plus all the new 'great' things around him, so when will we see different results on the field by Carr?...just curious.
new system is taking some time, yet if it gets to say week 6 and Carr isn't making the right reads and his struggling, I could see Kubiak not afraid to put Sage in..

I am not saying this needs to be done or not be done, I am saying Kubiak seems like a guy that will do what is best for the team and not keep someone just because of their contract or status IMO..

Jwwillis
08-20-2006, 02:27 PM
Well, look at it this way, with largely the same players that have been here*, our line suddenly looks at least serviceable. To me, that points to better coaching (play calling, play design, coaching the people, personnel decisions, etc.) and tends to discount that the problem was with the personnel.

* Right now, Spencer and Winston aren't really 1st stringers so they don't really count as personnel changes, yet. The biggest 1st string change is the addition of Flanagan, the rest of the guys were here but not used correctly or put into positions to be successful.

Sounds like all you are saying is the o-line is learning faster than Carr.

tsip
08-20-2006, 02:28 PM
That wasn't even an almost fumble..... blind commentators, that's all. Even at full speed, you could see that was an incomplete pass.

...rule change in the NFL on QB fumble--if the QB's arm is hit BEFORE the arm comes forward and the ball is knocked out, it's a fumble even if the QB's arm continues forward

Jwwillis
08-20-2006, 02:39 PM
Again a lot of QB's start slow and even Payton does at times. What I'm judging by is what they did when it was all said and done. When Carr left the game we have a 7 point lead. When the game was over we had a 7 point lead. With less than 2 minutes to go Carr got us down into field goal range and we kicked a field goal with a few seconds left on the clock. That was a game winning type of drive.

His work in the 2nd QTR was quite good. The drives were quality with few mistakes. If I recall correctly the failed 1st drive that lead to the missed field goal actually had a penalty which cost us the drive when we got near the end zone. I believe it was holding by Lundy.

The Team, coaches and Carr had to adjust to what the Rams were doing at the beginning of the game. It always takes some time, especially when you have nothing to study, to figure out what is going to work against your opposition. The Rams are also under new coaching. Sage had the time to watch what was happening by the time he came into the game plus our offensive line had calmed down and was playing well.

Finally, I agree that Sage is not talentless. On the other hand he did not increase the lead but we maintained it and won. However, at the critical juncture of the game the fact is I believe he was 3 and out on the last two drives and we were lucky to win with a fine goal line stand. Yes, he began strong, but he finished weak. Carr began weak, but finished strong. I guess its all in the eyes of the beholder.

Think a little bit because there is more to this game. We all have our prejudices and I certainly have mine. I think Carr is a lot better than many of you will ever understand.

Carr is as good as he performs on the field. Potential does not win games. Prejudice??? I, like your gf, have been a Carr supporter from the git go and still am. However, I refuse to put on blinders. Also, the Texas used to have a reputation as a fast starting team. They have produced long opening drives on many occasions. I am baffled by the Carr/Payton comparison.

edo783
08-20-2006, 02:55 PM
They have produced long opening drives on many occasions.

Not sure where you got that, but my perception has been exactly opposit of that. Usually taking 1-3 series to get it in gear.

the wonger need food
08-20-2006, 03:07 PM
I just watched the game again and Carr was just bad. A majority of his yards came on YAC and a couple of passes to AJ right before the half when the Rams were in prevent. On several occassions he had lots of time for plays to develop and chose to dump it underneath. On the sack he had room to step up into the pocket but chose to run into the defender. I don't know if he is playing scared or just doesn't grasp the position. Either way, Sage looks much competent.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2006, 03:20 PM
Ok, he's not getting sacked now plus all the new 'great' things around him, so when will we see different results on the field by Carr?...just curious.

What different results are you waiting for? So far, I've only seen the first game and he looked fine to me in that game. He didn't play badly.

From just the stats and what I've heard people saying, he didn't have a bad half last night. We had a 7 point lead that should have been 10 points when he walked off the field. I would have preferred to see more than 99 yards passing in the half but if he gets 200 yards per game for all 16 games, that's 3200 yards which is nothing to sneeze at; I'd prefer a bit more but it's not bad. He's still getting this system down and he's got a coach that's showing him what he's doing wrong.

So everything seems to be working out fine to me.

What has he done this pre-season that makes you think he should be benched?

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2006, 03:22 PM
Sounds like all you are saying is the o-line is learning faster than Carr.

Huh? No. I'm saying that this coaching staff is using the players better than the old coaching staff. This coaching staff seems (at least at this point) to be putting players into positions where they can be successful and that the o-line is working better as a team than they have in the past.

Hulk75
08-20-2006, 05:03 PM
Common sense. Who wants to play with a QB that sucks? AJ was totally frustrated last year at Mr. 'I am running out of bounds for a loss' Carr.

I will GUARANTEE that Carr finds the pine this year not due to injury but due to his vast suckiness. Prove me wrong if you can. He has no excuses left.
Okay...... :tease:

Bets? Would you like the same bet I offered someone else today................

Hulk75
08-20-2006, 05:06 PM
I just watched the game again and Carr was just bad. A majority of his yards came on YAC and a couple of passes to AJ right before the half when the Rams were in prevent. On several occassions he had lots of time for plays to develop and chose to dump it underneath. On the sack he had room to step up into the pocket but chose to run into the defender. I don't know if he is playing scared or just doesn't grasp the position. Either way, Sage looks much competent.
Okay nobody agreed with you earlier and you had a whole thread about, do you think it matters now that you said "I watched it again".
From Doc earlier.............He typed out what he saw, I guess we will just take your word for it.:)
1st pass play - incomplete now route/wr screen to AJ. Carr threw this ball just a tad too high, as it really wouldn't have left AJ in the greatest position to make a great play. Nevertheless, it would have been a solid gain if AJ didn't have oven mitts on. He leaped maybe just a few inches, grabbed the ball, brought it in and bounced it off his own chest. Bad play by AJ.

2nd pass play - seven step drop; immediately upon planting his back foot for the seventh step, the blitzer is in his face (Lundy's missed block). Carr tries to scramble away, but the defender does his job. I see no fault with Carr on this play and it even looked like he kept his eyes upfield a bit more than he might have in the past.

3rd pass play - this play is harder to assign blame. The O-line held up well and Carr makes his progression reads well. You can see him checking at least four options before #70 finally gives in and his man collapses into the pocket. Carr dances outside, behind Spencer, and wisely throws the ball at the feet of a covered receiver. Spencer did a fine job of pass pro on this play, by the way.

4th pass play - seven step drop; #72 is losing his battle as Carr is making his drop. With #72's assignment getting to him quickly, Carr has to release the ball sooner than he'd like. Carr kept his eyes downfield, turning to AJ's crossing route as he releases the ball. I think Carr could possibly have placed the ball a bit better, but he also wanted to lead AJ a bit. All in all, a good play by the defense, or a bad play by #72. I guess those of you who are hell-bent on finding bad things about Carr can say he placed the ball poorly. However, this is one of those plays where if we had been on defense and our guys had pressured the QB into throwing early, we'd be lauding the defensive effort. You can't have it both ways.

5th pass play - seven step drop; left tackle doesn't do a great job, but the FB does an even worse job. Carr steps up between the rushing defenders and delivers the screen pass to Lundy. If you watch the LB on the reverse angle, you can tell that Carr/Lundy didn't sell the handoff very well. Those of you who have to fault Carr on every play can point to that if you like.

6th pass play - this is the long screen to Putzier. Carr looks the defense off and then throws to Putzier at just the right time. Well-designed play and perfect execution.

7th pass play - this one got called back because Lundy held. Play-action handoff with a pass to Bennie Joppru. Well-designed play and executed well. Carr sells the play-action better than in the screen to Lundy and Joppru does a nice job. Carr delivers the ball with nice touch as well, which is nice to see. Lundy can't block, ugh.

8th pass play - 5-step or 7-step drop (I forgot to count when I was making notes, but it wasn't a 3-step); slant to AJ. Carr looks to AJ, looks back to mid-field, then back to AJ as he delivers the ball. It seems obvious to me that AJ was the first read and this is something that opposing teams will see on film. Good positive play, but I don't like Carr's placement. It's a bit high and he doesn't lead AJ like you would hope to see. On the other hand, AJ got jammed hard and had to fight early in the route, so that threw off the timing. I'm not sure how much of the placement was on Carr here.

9th pass play - play-action rollout. Lundy does a poor job overall here, but it's good coverage downfield. Lundy's man is charging hard at Carr, who turns on the speed, trying to buy time. Carr wisely throws it away, with no one open.

10th pass play - seven step drop; Carr is making multiple reads. Unblocked blitzer creams Carra s he's delivering ball. I don't see any fault with Carr whatsoever on this play. The Rams showed blitz pre-snap and Carr stood in there making his reads and trusting his protection. Last year, I think we'd have seen happy feet on this play. Negative play, but I liked Carr on this play.


Anyway, I know many of you Tivo the games and re-watch them with a more critical eye, so chime in and comment on my observations. I saw some minor flaws in Carr's game, as noted above, but in those plays, I honestly didn't see one bad decision at all. I'd like to see some better touch on the ball at times and I think his placement could use some precision adjustment, but for the most part, Carr did a good job.

I like what Sage did as well, but I am not going to overlook the pressure that Carr faced for most of the first half, whereas Sage faced next to no pressure. The O-line did a pretty good job with the pressure and it looked like they passed off assignments well, from my limited observations.

the wonger need food
08-20-2006, 05:26 PM
Okay nobody agreed with you earlier and you had a whole thread about, do you think it matters now that you said "I watched it again".
From Doc earlier.............He typed out what he saw, I guess we will just take your word for it.:)

I don't really care what anyone else saw. I see a scared QB that doesn't grasp the offense. I believe the term coach Kubiak used was "shaky". Sure, he led the team to a TD drive against a 2nd string defense, but this does not impress me.

I know there are a lot of people that get their feelings hurt when someone criticizes Carr, and it's understandable given that he's the face of the franchise. I just hope that the fans stop coddling Carr this year. He is not showing improvement and that's what we need to be judging his performance on in the preseason. And until he starts consistently winning regular season games he will continue to be criticized. It's nothing personal towards his fans or him... it's the business (and fandom) of NFL football.

jerek
08-20-2006, 05:28 PM
I don't really care what anyone else saw. I see a scared QB that doesn't grasp the offense. I believe the term coach Kubiak used was "shaky". Sure, he led the team to a TD drive against a 2nd string defense, but this does not impress me.

I know there are a lot of people that get their feelings hurt when someone criticizes Carr, and it's understandable given that he's the face of the franchise. I just hope that the fans stop coddling Carr this year. He is not showing improvement and that's what we need to be judging his performance on in the preseason. And until he starts consistently winning regular season games he will continue to be criticized. It's nothing personal towards his fans or him... it's the business (and fandom) of NFL football.

Gotta love the implication ... anyone who watches tape and disagrees with you is a fan "coddling" Carr.

You're consistent if nothing else wonger.

jerek
08-20-2006, 05:36 PM
Was Carr sacked last night??
I know it's off subject....but I couldn't see the game and I didn't see whether anyone mentioned it or not.



1 sack. Rapidly collapsing pocket that he might have been able to avoid, might not. A tough judgment call IMO, but that is my recollection; I don't have the tape yet.

the wonger need food
08-20-2006, 05:36 PM
Gotta love the implication ... anyone who watches tape and disagrees with you is a fan "coddling" Carr.

You're consistent if nothing else wonger.

Thanks Jerek.

Sorry, I don't mean to hurt feelings, but I just don't see any improvement in Carr's game. And last night I saw a much better QB in Rosenfels. Unlike a lot of people I am a Texans fan and want what's best for the team, not what's best for an individual player or his fans.

Hulk75
08-20-2006, 05:37 PM
I don't really care what anyone else saw. I see a scared QB that doesn't grasp the offense. I believe the term coach Kubiak used was "shaky". Sure, he led the team to a TD drive against a 2nd string defense, but this does not impress me.

I know there are a lot of people that get their feelings hurt when someone criticizes Carr, and it's understandable given that he's the face of the franchise. I just hope that the fans stop coddling Carr this year. He is not showing improvement and that's what we need to be judging his performance on in the preseason. And until he starts consistently winning regular season games he will continue to be criticized. It's nothing personal towards his fans or him... it's the business (and fandom) of NFL football.
You dont care what anyone else saw............that did it for me right there.

My bro Doc gives a 10 paragraph summary on what really happened and you come here and say "He always does this and that, its his fault, so on so on so on............". Back it up with reall liget argument.

"He sucks, start Sage"...................Okay:)

What are you so worried about anyways isnt Sage going to be the starter soon? You should be happy!:rolleyes:

not what's best for an individual player or his fans. Thats funny, some of us just know football and see bs when we read it.

the wonger need food
08-20-2006, 05:38 PM
1 sack. Rapidly collapsing pocket that he might have been able to avoid, might not. A tough judgment call IMO, but that is my recollection; I don't have the tape yet.

Actually, it was a LB blitz off right tackle that Lundi failed to pick up. If Carr steps a little left and up there is a nice pocket. He chose to step back and right, into the LB.

They almost got him on another blitz up the middle but it was an incomplete pass. Other than those 2 instances he generally had a lot of time to throw.

the wonger need food
08-20-2006, 05:47 PM
You dont care what anyone else saw............that did it for me right there.

My bro Doc gives a 10 paragraph summary on what really happened and you come here and say "He always does this and that, its his fault, so on so on so on............". Back it up with reall liget argument.

"He sucks, start Sage"...................Okay:)

What are you so worried about anyways isnt Sage going to be the starter soon? You should be happy!:rolleyes:

Thats funny, some of us just know football and see bs when we read it.

Hulk, it doesn't matter how bad Carr plays, you will defend him until your death. You've been doing it since day one and it's very admirable.

And I don't care if Duck types up 50 paragraphs on what he saw. I've been watching and following all levels of football for 30+ years. Unless Coach Kubiak or Coach Calhoun comes in here and corrects me I believe that I am right. I believe "shaky" is a good description for Carr at this point in the preseason and his career.

Jwwillis
08-20-2006, 05:54 PM
Sage was brought in to compete for the 1 spot and drive Carr to get better. Its working.

thunderkyss
08-20-2006, 05:57 PM
...rule change in the NFL on QB fumble--if the QB's arm is hit BEFORE the arm comes forward and the ball is knocked out, it's a fumble even if the QB's arm continues forward

eeeeewwwwwww ........ damn that Tom Brady...... damn him to hell.....


this is not good for QBs.

RiotCommander
08-20-2006, 05:58 PM
I know that I asked this last week and got BOMBARDED with http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_211.gif"feelings of hostility" http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_211.gifand I'm not trying to "side" with anyone in this debate. Neither am I going to pretend that I've read the exhaustive nature of this thread, but I would like to ask again...somewhat expecting to get the same "feelings of hostility".


"What would it really hurt to start SR in the place of DC in next weeks game? Just to see how he does against the 1st team D."
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_28.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824YYUS)
I sort of feel a QB controversy of sorts that may be brewing, whether it's ever addressed or not.

I mean, if WE CAN SEE the things that we see, with our limited experiences with the game and without ANY real knowledge of what's going on "behind the scenes," can you imagine how some of the players are feeling about this same thing???


While I can see that it would be a good thing to start Sage to see what he can do. I have yet to see Carr get into any kind of rhythm in the offense, and I feel that until we see a solid start from him in the preseason he is going to be the one we see starting. That is unless he gets the hook which I doubt happens.

I too want to see what Sage can do, but just remember that the grass is not always greener an all that. :deadhorse

RiotCommander
08-20-2006, 06:06 PM
The best QB should play period. David has done really nothing to earn unyeilding loyalty. I just trust the coach to know when to give Sage his chance. I just hope you guys dont butcher him when he starts to make the same mistakes too. I have seen him make a few very bad choices that were not picked off but should have been.

bayoudreamn
08-20-2006, 06:07 PM
Hulk, it doesn't matter how bad Carr plays, you will defend him until your death. You've been doing it since day one and it's very admirable.

And I don't care if Duck types up 50 paragraphs on what he saw. I've been watching and following all levels of football for 30+ years. Unless Coach Kubiak or Coach Calhoun comes in here and corrects me I believe that I am right. I believe "shaky" is a good description for Carr at this point in the preseason and his career.

There's no stopping this thread. But I do agree that Carr needs to play an exceptional game....if for no other reason than to provide a break in this never ending cycle. AAAAHHHHHHH!

tsip
08-20-2006, 06:07 PM
Jay Cutler, Denver's 1st round pick in '06, is learning the same offense as Carr. After 2 games, their stats are--


Carr 13/22 122 59.1 0 0 74.4

Cutler 22/34 291 64.7 2 0 111.3

It should be fun this weekend as these QB's will go head to head in Denver.


LEGEND--
Comp/Att Yds %comp TD INT QBRating

infantrycak
08-20-2006, 06:17 PM
...rule change in the NFL on QB fumble--if the QB's arm is hit BEFORE the arm comes forward and the ball is knocked out, it's a fumble even if the QB's arm continues forward

This is not a new rule--it has been around as part of the tuck rule for quite a while. For example, from 2001:

By rule, a "tuck" is an incomplete pass, not a fumble. Whether Warner intended to throw the ball or to stop his motion is irrelevant. The ball was in his hand when his arm was moving forward and, by rule, it is an incomplete pass.

A fumble would have been the ruling if:

1) Warner's arm had been hit before forward motion had begun. He then would have been throwing what is called an "empty hand."

OR

2) Warner had fully brought the ball into his body before it fell loose.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/4599234

rmartin65
08-20-2006, 06:24 PM
Jay Cutler, Denver's 1st round pick in '06, is learning the same offense as Carr. After 2 games, their stats are--


Carr 13/22 122 59.1 0 0 74.4

Cutler 22/34 291 64.7 2 0 111.3

It should be fun this weekend as these QB's will go head to head in Denver.


LEGEND--
Comp/Att Yds %comp TD INT QBRating
I think Cutler is playing second stringers just like Rosenfels. Could be wrong though

Honoring Earl 34
08-20-2006, 06:30 PM
So is there no brave soul that is willing to reply to the PURELY HYPOTHETICAL "CONSPIRACY THEORY" of a notion that I proposed back in #125.

I realize that it's only a theory and is founded in NO symblance of reality or proof...but HEY, so is many of the things in this thread! lol

Actually it was just a thought that I had while reading some of your posts...and I would be curious to hear your thoughts.


LYB , you must develop a secret code to talk about benching Carr freely on this board . What was the German decoder in WW11 that we swiped ? Anyways you have to have a secret bench Carr code to survive .

thunderkyss
08-20-2006, 06:30 PM
I love David Carr..... I think he is our best option at QB..... but two things need to happen.

#1wonger needs to realize Carr didn't cost us this game. No mistake he's made led to us losing the game.

#2 Some folks need to admit Carr threw a bad past into the back of a DB..... for whatever reason. & Carr didn't step up(or up & to the left) in the pocket.
..... Big deal, not very good reasons to bench your starting QB. David looks better this week, than he did last week. I expect him to look better next week, the week after, and the week after that....... that's the benefit of playing with the first team in the preseason.

infantrycak
08-20-2006, 06:34 PM
#2 Some folks need to admit Carr threw a bad past into the back of a DB..... for whatever reason.

If we are thinking about the same play it looked like a miscommunication IMO. Carr expected AJ to come underneath the DB and have his body between the ball and the DB--instead AJ got hung up a little and went behind the DB.

thunderkyss
08-20-2006, 06:38 PM
"What would it really hurt to start SR in the place of DC in next weeks game? Just to see how he does against the 1st team D."
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_28.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824YYUS)
I sort of feel a QB controversy of sorts that may be brewing, whether it's ever addressed or not.

I mean, if WE CAN SEE the things that we see, with our limited experiences with the game and without ANY real knowledge of what's going on "behind the scenes," can you imagine how some of the players are feeling about this same thing???

Carr needs the work........ I'm really surprised that he hasn't played more than what he has in the preseason. Carr plays with the first team, because he will be starting with the first team. Sage is the backup........ bottom line.
If we have Sage play with the first team, then that just takes reps away from Carr(who like I said, needs it).

Next week(week 3) the first team should play into the second half...... It would be a testament to Sage, if he starts the second half, with the first team. At the same time, we'll be saying,"Carr has done his job, no need to risk getting him hurt, so the rest of the team can get some experience".... so we won't be inviting a QB controversy...... like we would, if we start Sage in the first half.

chuckm
08-20-2006, 06:41 PM
Since next week's game is on Sunday, that gives us an extra day to push this thread past the "Now do I seem ridiculous" thread's 22 page mark .....

jerek
08-20-2006, 06:45 PM
Actually, it was a LB blitz off right tackle that Lundi failed to pick up. If Carr steps a little left and up there is a nice pocket. He chose to step back and right, into the LB.

They almost got him on another blitz up the middle but it was an incomplete pass. Other than those 2 instances he generally had a lot of time to throw.

I wouldn't say he "generally had a lot of time" to throw. "Adequate" maybe, but "a lot" ... nah. I might try to record an average time when I get ahold of the tape ... I don't have DVR just yet. But IIRC there was a lot of blitzing going on when Carr was on the game ... much moreso than when Sage was in, for that matter. That's my impression and not a factual tape review, so take FWIW.

thunderkyss
08-20-2006, 06:46 PM
If we are thinking about the same play it looked like a miscommunication IMO. Carr expected AJ to come underneath the DB and have his body between the ball and the DB--instead AJ got hung up a little and went behind the DB.

I'm trying sooo hard to be on good behavior here, but I doubt he had his eyes open on that one. & I'm sure Kubiak didn't see it that way as he chewed him out on the sideline right after the play.

Honoring Earl 34
08-20-2006, 06:49 PM
:rolleyes: OK we can draft Kevin Kolb in the third round and have Sage start until the local boy ( Kolb , UH ) is ready .

Ibar_Harry
08-20-2006, 06:56 PM
Carr needs the work........ I'm really surprised that he hasn't played more than what he has in the preseason. Carr plays with the first team, because he will be starting with the first team. Sage is the backup........ bottom line.
If we have Sage play with the first team, then that just takes reps away from Carr(who like I said, needs it).

Next week(week 3) the first team should play into the second half...... It would be a testament to Sage, if he starts the second half, with the first team. At the same time, we'll be saying,"Carr has done his job, no need to risk getting him hurt, so the rest of the team can get some experience".... so we won't be inviting a QB controversy...... like we would, if we start Sage in the first half.

I believe the plan is to play Carr most of the next game. That's at least what has been quoted from Kubiak. Sage is to play most of the game against Tampa including starting.

thunderkyss
08-20-2006, 06:56 PM
I appreciate your response to my "thoughts." But I would like it if you addressed my second post in #125 as well. Would like your thoughts on it as well.


He may very well not fit........ on paper, he is the right guy, so if it doesn't work out, it's mental..... like telling Morency to quit with the shake and bake(which is exactly what a lot of teams are looking for)......

He's got the arm, he's got the athleticism(sp), and we think he's smart enough. I think right now, we've got to see if he can process the info as fast as it is coming at him. and on a couple of occasions, it's looking like he's throwing the ball because his internal clock is ticking............ loud. But, IMHO that's fine, as long as he gets rid of the ball, and don't take a sack. I'd like to see him throw that ball higher, where either AJ can make a play on it, or put enough on it where it will sail into the stands(like Manning does).

I don't know how stubborn Kubiak is, but I'm sure he is used to winning....... He might go a couple of weeks with David screwing things up for us, but if David becomes the main problem on offense, I have on doubt he'll yank him.

tsip
08-20-2006, 06:58 PM
This is not a new rule--it has been around as part of the tuck rule for quite a while. For example, from 2001:



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/4599234

I was just going by what they said on an NFL game the other night, guess someone should call the announcers!!

KKHouston
08-20-2006, 07:00 PM
I don't really care what anyone else saw. I see a scared QB that doesn't grasp the offense. I believe the term coach Kubiak used was "shaky". Sure, he led the team to a TD drive against a 2nd string defense, but this does not impress me.



Thank goodness you're not in a position that matters, and the Texans don't care about you being impressed.

You know.. there is a team in Dallas, if you want to leave now...
:lightbulb:

NYTEXANFAN23
08-20-2006, 07:01 PM
I dont understand why so many people bash Carr. The guy has done nothing but take a beating because of probable 3 of the worst Olines in NFL history. Find me one other QB except McNair that can get sacked as many times as Carr every season and still play almost every down of the season. And Mcnair can no longer do that. Carr has a very good arm and shows very good potential now that we have what looks to be our best Oline yet. With molds now in the mix that opens up Johnson alot more and that could be big. I think Carr is gonna have his best season yet. As for all the Vince Young lovers out there I am sure the Titans are looking for some more fans. Vinces little wrsit flick release is not gonna work in the NFL and his running will change after the first big hit he takes. Now just remeber this is my opinion and I am no pro but this is how I feel and I am sick of hearing all our fans bash the one player that has showed nothing but heart out there on the field every game.

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2006, 07:02 PM
I have to say I am more than impressed with Sage's poise and delivery of the football. He looks a lot more in charge than Carr. I think we need to give serious consideration to letting Sage run the team if Carr continues to look flustered and like a rookie. The guy still looks totally out of control and just kinda sucks. He did do a good job getting rid of the ball and not taking sacks.

I think Carr sucks but that is not news. Bottom line is that I want the Texan's to have the best guy starting, and based on what I have seen, it is SAGE.

doug from the woodlands

infantrycak
08-20-2006, 07:03 PM
I'm trying sooo hard to be on good behavior here, but I doubt he had his eyes open on that one. & I'm sure Kubiak didn't see it that way as he chewed him out on the sideline right after the play.

Just watched it again and these sideline chewing reports are propagating like roaches. AJ turns the route inside and runs smooth into the DB and stops instead of turning either underneath or over the top of him and continuing the route. There is no way that route is how it was drawn up--it does appear to be a poor decision by Carr as well since AJ is in contact with the DB when the ball is thrown. Carr walks to the sideline making a hand gesture with both hands going outward (I expected AJ to run one side or the other?) and Kubiak with no visible facial expression or indication of volume says 3-4 words to him. It's called coaching--every time someone speaks to the coach it isn't a chewing out.

infantrycak
08-20-2006, 07:04 PM
I was just going by what they said on an NFL game the other night, guess someone should call the announcers!!

And I am just trying to provide some information.

tsip
08-20-2006, 07:07 PM
I've heard almost everyone at some point in time mention "Kubiak's System."

Another question... "WHAT IF" CARR is a poor fit for Kubiak's system and Kubiak knew this all along and THAT is actually why he brought SR in???

It's just a question. I mean if RB's & WR's & TE's & Lineman & etc. etc. etc. can NOT be a fit in his system...can't our beloved DC be a poor fit as well?

Just a question!!!! Don't start slinging poop at me!

I don't think the team would have spent $8 million if this was the case! Heck, they even had a $5+ million option they could have used... No, I think Kubiak bought into the theory that Carr had been poorly coached in a horrible offensive scheme with a marginal cast around him--change all that and we've got the brand new Carr...but,wait, something is not right

NYTEXANFAN23
08-20-2006, 07:09 PM
And for all the people who wanted Reggie Bush, he is not worth what he wanted to be paid

FILO_girl
08-20-2006, 07:09 PM
I am very suprised at the level of Rosenfels play, pleasantly suprised.

That pass to Lewis for a TD, pure buttah baby! That was just beautiful....:drool: I would like to see some more of that. :)

Everyone is still wound tighter than heck here, getcha some Battle Red Koolaid and sit back for a bit. Does wonders for the Texan fan soul. I may even have to partake in some, it has been a bit warm lately and it just sounds like the right thing to do. David is the 8mil QB who will start regardless, unless something major happens. I know that he is the raison d'etre for some, and a point of contention for others.

Still Preseason, fellow Rabid BattleRed fanatics. Keep that in mind.

thunderkyss
08-20-2006, 07:10 PM
Just watched it again and these sideline chewing reports are propagating like roaches. AJ turns the route inside and runs smooth into the DB and stops instead of turning either underneath or over the top of him and continuing the route. There is no way that route is how it was drawn up--it does appear to be a poor decision by Carr as well since AJ is in contact with the DB when the ball is thrown. Carr walks to the sideline making a hand gesture with both hands going outward (I expected AJ to run one side or the other?) and Kubiak with no visible facial expression or indication of volume says 3-4 words to him. It's called coaching--every time someone speaks to the coach it isn't a chewing out.


After a bad throw, a discussion with the coach is usually a butt chewing. After a throw like that....... it's usually a well deserved butt chewing.

But that's Ok....... I'd much rather see a butt chewing, than no butt chewing.

Ibar_Harry
08-20-2006, 07:11 PM
Just watched it again and these sideline chewing reports are propagating like roaches. AJ turns the route inside and runs smooth into the DB and stops instead of turning either underneath or over the top of him and continuing the route. There is no way that route is how it was drawn up--it does appear to be a poor decision by Carr as well since AJ is in contact with the DB when the ball is thrown. Carr walks to the sideline making a hand gesture with both hands going outward (I expected AJ to run one side or the other?) and Kubiak with no visible facial expression or indication of volume says 3-4 words to him. It's called coaching--every time someone speaks to the coach it isn't a chewing out.

Infantrycake I appreciate the comments. A lot of things have to happen for an offense to be good and sometimes it requires a bad defense. The difference in timing between a great catch and an interception at times is minute. This ball club is going somewhere. I feel that Carr is necessary if we are going to get there. Yes, he's big and strong and has some weaknesses, but you have to have someone who can take a beating in the NFL these days. QB's like Tarkington - as elusive as he was - simply wouldn't survive. These QB's are almost as big as the DE's anymore. It is indeed a very physical game and if you have been hammered as many times as Carr it takes a while to get use to being able to avoid the hit. Its easier to avoid 1, than it is the whole team.

kbourda
08-20-2006, 07:20 PM
I dont understand why so many people bash Carr. The guy has done nothing but take a beating because of probable 3 of the worst Olines in NFL history. Find me one other QB except McNair that can get sacked as many times as Carr every season and still play almost every down of the season. And Mcnair can no longer do that. Carr has a very good arm and shows very good potential now that we have what looks to be our best Oline yet. With molds now in the mix that opens up Johnson alot more and that could be big. I think Carr is gonna have his best season yet. As for all the Vince Young lovers out there I am sure the Titans are looking for some more fans. Vinces little wrsit flick release is not gonna work in the NFL and his running will change after the first big hit he takes. Now just remeber this is my opinion and I am no pro but this is how I feel and I am sick of hearing all our fans bash the one player that has showed nothing but heart out there on the field every game.

Since this is your first post i'll be a little easy on you. For starters, Carr's production has not nor will ever be because of VY so please don't keep bringing up his name (VY) because Carr is playing inconsistent (for his career). And that last sentence wasn't just for you (you know who you are). The draft is over and time to move on. In Carr's defense, he is learning a new offense and not an easy one either. It's just the preseason. The wins are good for morale. Anyone that thinks other wise is kidding themselves. I'll admit I am no Carr fan but i'm anxious to see how he does with this type of offense. I think Carr would do well playing in an offense like, ironically, the Rams. Carr is a gunslinger type of QB so his transition to the WCO is and will be a process that takes time. Carr has not impressed but it is the preseason. And I will hold off any thoughts of his play until about half way through the NFL season.

the wonger need food
08-20-2006, 07:24 PM
Thank goodness you're not in a position that matters, and the Texans don't care about you being impressed.

You know.. there is a team in Dallas, if you want to leave now...
:lightbulb:


As I stated previously, I am a fan of the Texans and could not care less who the QB of the team is as long as they win. Apparantly a lot of people's feelings get hurt when someone criticizes Davey Carr and that's understandable. But if he is not improving at this point in his career this is something to concerned about as a fan. Apparantly Coach Kubiak isn't very impressed with Carr's performance either... maybe he should find another team to coach.

cuppacoffee
08-20-2006, 07:38 PM
Luv_ya_blue]

"I sort of feel a QB controversy of sorts that may be brewing, whether it's ever addressed or not."

Only in a couple of posters minds.


"I mean, if WE CAN SEE the things that we see, with our limited experiences with the game and without ANY real knowledge of what's going on "behind the scenes," can you imagine how some of the players are feeling about this same thing?"

You are correct ..you obviously have limited experience (probably from watching from an easy chair) and without any real knowledge of whats going on behind the scenes."..:)

I imagine the players are cheering for Carr, happy to see him receiving and responding to decent coaching. :yahoo:

See how easy it is to imagine things.

I definitely do not see the same things you proclaim to see.

:coffee:

tsip
08-20-2006, 08:10 PM
And I am just trying to provide some information.

...thanks, appreciate it

KKHouston
08-20-2006, 08:11 PM
As I stated previously, I am a fan of the Texans and could not care less who the QB of the team is as long as they win. Apparantly a lot of people's feelings get hurt when someone criticizes Davey Carr and that's understandable. But if he is not improving at this point in his career this is something to concerned about as a fan. Apparantly Coach Kubiak isn't very impressed with Carr's performance either... maybe he should find another team to coach.

It certainly doesn't hurt my feelings if you criticize Carr.. (I'll pass on your bait attempt by calling him Davey}. In fact, most of the people posting offer something intelligent on why they feel the way they do. When I read your posts about him, all I see is pot-stirring.

You obviously don't support Kubiak's decision as it stands now. We all understand that. However, the fact remains that Carr is the starter, and will be until Kubiak decides to bench him. You can whine after every game... it's not going to matter. You're not in charge, you won't be, and you're in the minority on your opinion.

Your posts appear to be inflammatory. They don't offer anything on the subject that is new. Obviously, you don't like David Carr. However, if you were a fan as you state you are, you'd understand this is preseason. You'd also understand that not every look is being shown right now. Why show everyone you're improved? Why not keep improving and let the victories do the talking?

If the QB goes into a game not passing for 300+ yards, he's a failure. Putting up 17 points doesn't matter to you. The game was won, and Carr contributed. I don't care if he makes mistakes.... the team still won.

Come back mid-season, and let's see what side of the fence you are on.


:fortune:

Hulk75
08-20-2006, 08:11 PM
Hulk, it doesn't matter how bad Carr plays, you will defend him until your death. You've been doing it since day one and it's very admirable.

And I don't care if Duck types up 50 paragraphs on what he saw. I've been watching and following all levels of football for 30+ years. Unless Coach Kubiak or Coach Calhoun comes in here and corrects me I believe that I am right. I believe "shaky" is a good description for Carr at this point in the preseason and his career.
watching for 30 years wow............I have been playing for 15 years and have had try outs with 2 NFL teams, playing and watching are 2 different things, time to get a new hobby. From my experience your wrong PERIOD

Let me know when I have said 1 thing that was not true about David Carr or anyone else for that matter.

Hey like I say, you have nothing to be mad at you will be right around....What week 6?........ Sage will be the starter and I will be the guy that does not know anything. So you say right?

I know you as well...............You have been trying to get at Carr for years now, thats the only thing I have ever seen you do, cause you want to be the guy to say I told you so, and I think that is low.

Your just upset that there are probably 3 people that agree with you.

jdog
08-20-2006, 08:18 PM
I think we can safely say that if Sage is the Man, then Kubiak will start him. I think Kubiak has made his position on favortism very clear.

It would be interesting if he started Rosenfels in the preseason. It might light a fire under Carr's butt and help resolve fan questions.

I do not think Carr is like "what's his name" formerly of Detroit. I think Carr has toughness, athleticism, and good decision making (considering his weakness which is post traumatic stress syndrome). He needs to unlearn what he has learned from the previous coaching staff and from the previous line problems.

Is it too much work? Well, there is a lot invested in him, and I think he deserves at least a year to show progress before everyone throws him out. He has already shown progress. I see no reason why he could not be in the top five of AFC quarterbacks...albeit #5.

Manning (not as good but still the best)
Brady (finally getting some 'spect which could be bad luck for him)
Green (going conservative)
Palmer (recovering)
Plummer (lost Kubiak/Cutler is a clue)
Culpepper (no moss the sequel)
Brooks (how is this an upgrade from last year? it's not)
McNair (why is he not in Tennessee anymore?/Ravens are desperate)
Leftwich (maybe if he had Johnson/Moulds)
Roethlisberger (his accident was like an allegory for the Steelers upcoming post Super Bowl season)
Volek (he will surprise, but he is in a no win situation)
Losman/Holcomb (enough said...just ask Eric Moulds)
Frye (see Chicago's quarterback situation last year)
Rivers (he will be very good at handing the ball to Tomlinson)
Jets QB (please)

Hulk75
08-20-2006, 08:35 PM
From the horses mouth..............I guess I am not as crazy as some think. Should I not believe what he is saying? Just the bad stuff I should take for truth.:cool:

On a positive note, Kubiak was pleased with certain aspects of the offensive game such as quarterback David Carr’s performance, the running game and overall ball protection. Again, Kubiak stressed the importance of fixing those mistakes as a team for Carr to be able to perform well.

“Early in the game David got a few plays that he’s going to make for our team to give us a chance to get off to a great start,” Kubiak said. “He needs some help to make those plays. There are situations where he’s got to get the ball to a few receivers, we have to protect him a little better and then we have to make those plays when they’re there. I saw the same thing (as last week), but I did see him settle down and play well in the second quarter. He did a good job right before the second half. He did calm down from that standpoint, but we have to get the front-end corrected.”

Is he perfect NO this is a new scheme and the coaches are pleased with what he is doing so far..............

KKHouston
08-20-2006, 08:39 PM
From the horses mouth..............I guess I am not as crazy as some think. Should I not believe what he is saying? Just the bad stuff I should take for truth.:cool:

Edited because I was adding fuel to the fire.

Jwwillis
08-20-2006, 09:10 PM
I dont understand why so many people bash Carr. The guy has done nothing but take a beating because of probable 3 of the worst Olines in NFL history. Find me one other QB except McNair that can get sacked as many times as Carr every season and still play almost every down of the season. And Mcnair can no longer do that. Carr has a very good arm and shows very good potential now that we have what looks to be our best Oline yet. With molds now in the mix that opens up Johnson alot more and that could be big. I think Carr is gonna have his best season yet. As for all the Vince Young lovers out there I am sure the Titans are looking for some more fans. Vinces little wrsit flick release is not gonna work in the NFL and his running will change after the first big hit he takes. Now just remeber this is my opinion and I am no pro but this is how I feel and I am sick of hearing all our fans bash the one player that has showed nothing but heart out there on the field every game.

Archey Manning=David Carr

edo783
08-20-2006, 09:10 PM
I suspect that some who want Sage to start will get their wish in the game with Tampa Bay. It will still probably be mostly all the 2 & 3 guys playing though.

TexanFanInCC
08-20-2006, 10:12 PM
10/17 for 99 yards, and their D was making him hurry alot becuase of the o-line and RB not picking up the blitz in the first couple of series. I don't see why you are saying Carr looked like a rookie he didn't do bad.

i was displeased with carr's performance. he had plenty of times where he had all the protection in the universe and the best he did was make a hurry-up dumpoff for an incompletion. he was not focused on making reads. he looked very tense. he was making all sorts of unnecessary body movements and not hanging in the pocket long enough.

jdog
08-20-2006, 10:24 PM
It would be interesting if he started Rosenfels in the preseason. It might light a fire under Carr's butt and help resolve fan questions.

I do not think Carr is like "what's his name" formerly of Detroit. I think Carr has toughness, athleticism, and good decision making (considering his weakness which is post traumatic stress syndrome). He needs to unlearn what he has learned from the previous coaching staff and from the previous line problems.

Is it too much work? Well, there is a lot invested in him, and I think he deserves at least a year to show progress before everyone throws him out. He has already shown progress. I see no reason why he could not be in the top five of AFC quarterbacks...albeit #5.

Manning (not as good but still the best)
Brady (finally getting some 'spect which could be bad luck for him)
Green (going conservative)
Palmer (recovering)
Plummer (lost Kubiak/Cutler is a clue)
Culpepper (no moss the sequel)
Brooks (how is this an upgrade from last year? it's not)
McNair (why is he not in Tennessee anymore?/Ravens are desperate)
Leftwich (maybe if he had Johnson/Moulds)
Roethlisberger (his accident was like an allegory for the Steelers upcoming post Super Bowl season)
Volek (he will surprise, but he is in a no win situation)
Losman/Holcomb (enough said...just ask Eric Moulds)
Frye (see Chicago's quarterback situation last year)
Rivers (he will be very good at handing the ball to Tomlinson)
Jets QB (please)

Okay, I just watched the second preseason game, and I'm going to have to say that this is very questionable.

I don't think you can overlook what Kubiak brings to the position. I'm going to stay positive.

TFL
08-20-2006, 10:57 PM
Don't know if some one already posted this, but a reporter for ABC 13 asked Gary Kubiak if there was a QB controversy and he said no David is our guy. Don't have a link becuase i saw it on T.V.

It was Houston Texans inside the game on channel 13

TexansBull
08-20-2006, 11:14 PM
Man guys, I am a just a simple fan of football hoping my hometown team is finally a competitor. I could care less whos the QB of this team just as long there is a superbowl trophy in the future soon.

No, lets just make it to the playoffs.

No, lets just have a winning season..

I do hope Carr is the Qb because even though he has had 4 years to prove himself, he hasnt had a fair shake at things because of the past rigime and all his sacks.

But I havent been watching football or played football like some of you guys so can yall just help a simple guy out and answer a question that is plaguing a lot of people.

What is the purpose of preseason?

I always thought it was to get a look at all the guys, and see how they measure up in games that arent meaningful enough to be counted towards the road to the superbowl.

I think too that is is to get a look at guys that should be on the team and practice squad.

I even think that in preseason, even if a player has a lousy or great performance, it doesnt necessarily translate into meaning a player will be lousy or great in the regular season and playoffs.

And get this. I even think that QBs are graded in the regular season and how they perform. The QB controversy is solved then, when the games mean something and they are playing against the same teams.

I am really confused cause I think this, and cant understand why people are ready to tar and feather a guy before his trial has started.

Anyways, feel free to correct me. My feelings wont get hurt.

In the meantime, I am going to watch and see how long you guys are going to compare another QB controversy going on right now to this supposed one...

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/teamReport?categoryId=67040&type=StrategyAndPersonnel

Battle of the week:first sentence...interesting...:hmmm:

skillz24
08-20-2006, 11:32 PM
]']Because it was alwasy Carr's fault that we had the 31st defense last season. It was Carr's fault that Victor Riley was his left tackle last year.

Even with a really good QB coach inplace now. Carr has no more room to grow. You will hear "David Carr is David Carr" alot. Some people think david cant improve anymore and want to bench him for a Rosenfels without a regular season game played yet.

I dont think coach Kubes is that dumb. Thank GOD!



finally someone who doesn't go duhh duh drrrrrr for a living!!!!! 'Gary Kubiak' your fine in my book.

TexansBull
08-20-2006, 11:47 PM
]']Because it was alwasy Carr's fault that we had the 31st defense last season. It was Carr's fault that Victor Riley was his left tackle last year.

Even with a really good QB coach inplace now. Carr has no more room to grow. You will hear "David Carr is David Carr" alot. Some people think david cant improve anymore and want to bench him for a Rosenfels without a regular season game played yet.

I dont think coach Kubes is that dumb. Thank GOD!

Thanks for helping a brother out. I heard varios things about DC v. SR.
Everyone agrees that DC got off to a rough start from the blitz but adjusted as things went on. But it has been said by some that it took him too long and that he only did good against the 2nd stringers. Someone also posted Carr did an audible and we had a TD run from it. Is this true?

Then SR lit it up. He was just phenominal in the beginning. But some have said that he started off great but as time wore on, he got a tad bit worse and the last two possessions he was three and out. I thought we were wanting consistency from a QB...

I would love to put what I saw, but I didnt get to watch the game. A squirrel got in my transformer and got lit up! I ended up just seeing DC get sacked bad agianst the Rams defense. Then the power went out, and didnt come back on until Sage threw that TD pass. I had to turn it off. Sorry I have to resort from using other peoples comments from learning things about the players preseason performance.

I think thats what everyone else who is saying bench carr now only saw that too. Even though they had the privelege of watching the whole game and havent realized its the first year of a coaching change, and its preseason.

But I am still drinking the Carr Kool-Aide and havent put the Sage in my spagetti just yet.<---yea i stole those...

I trust Kubiak will put in the right QB to get us to that winning season.

Ibar_Harry
08-20-2006, 11:48 PM
From the horses mouth..............I guess I am not as crazy as some think. Should I not believe what he is saying? Just the bad stuff I should take for truth.:cool:

Quote:
On a positive note, Kubiak was pleased with certain aspects of the offensive game such as quarterback David Carr’s performance, the running game and overall ball protection. Again, Kubiak stressed the importance of fixing those mistakes as a team for Carr to be able to perform well.

“Early in the game David got a few plays that he’s going to make for our team to give us a chance to get off to a great start,” Kubiak said. “He needs some help to make those plays. There are situations where he’s got to get the ball to a few receivers, we have to protect him a little better and then we have to make those plays when they’re there. I saw the same thing (as last week), but I did see him settle down and play well in the second quarter. He did a good job right before the second half. He did calm down from that standpoint, but we have to get the front-end corrected.”


Is he perfect NO this is a new scheme and the coaches are pleased with what he is doing so far..............

Hulk I have been saying this for the bulk of this thread and it really is crazy what people are seeing. His less than two minute execution at the end of the 1st half was very good. We didn't do that most of the time last year. The missed field goal drive was stopped by an unfortunate play by Lundy. Don't blame Carr for that. He settled down after being hammered at the beginning. As many hits as he's taken its going to be a while before he feels confidence. The big thing is the coaches, the players adjusted to what the RAMS were doing and we won. I reiterate David finished strong and Sage finished weak. We almost lost that game on the last two series. We did nothing at a key point in the game. Our defense held them on the 1 wasn't it. What more can you say, but its a team game.

Bullpen Drew
08-20-2006, 11:57 PM
Sage looked really good last night!!

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-21-2006, 01:47 AM
After 9 pages of threads on this, still comes down to SAGE is garbage, maybe the Texans store will have a dollar sale on the Carr jersey's this week before they start making the # 18 jersey's, Sage is another Bernie Kosar, or Brian Sipe to the Browns, he will come and go just like the wind, so everyone get use to it Carr is the man for now, even if you don't like it.

TK_Gamer
08-21-2006, 02:05 AM
many people including myself have said before, David Carr has all the throws. well......he dont , he needs the quick throw to the cutter, he can hit the quick hook the quick screen ( not a good chance of picking up a 3rd and 6 with that one though) I heard Kubiak did alot of slants in training camp but they havent really done much in preseason, so maybe they are saving it for philly, but carr needs that throw, blitzes happen, it doesnt mean you have to get sacked. and since we can be reasonably certain teams will continue to throw 5 guys at carr all year, he REALLY needs that quick drop, quick read, quick release, he has the ability, just needs the poise we have all been talking about. anyone?

phan1
08-21-2006, 02:28 AM
First off, let me say that i am absolutely Pro-Carr as being our franchise QB, and have never waivered in my stance.

That being said, I do believe that he needs to play better, and to be honest, he's been a bit dissapointing. There could be many reasons why Rosenfels is out-playing Carr the last few games. I'll trust Kubiak to handle that. But bottom line is, Carr looks just OK and needs to play better.

I actually haven't seen anything impressive about Carr that he hasn't done before. The typical bootlegs, the short passes, we've seen all that. The only difference is that our TEs are catching some of those short passes instead of just DD (kind of reminiscent of our Billy Miller days).

Our wide recievers don't look like they're getting enough passes, and I haven't seen him throw the ball over the middle or hardly any past 10 yards for that matter. I know the WCO is about short passes and all, but it's not like I've never seen Plummer throw some deep ones. Things just don't look solid. Basically, our offense looks just like it did in season 3 except we have TEs catching the ball. Granted the Oline is a huge improvement but that's about it. It still looks like Carr needs to get "in the zone".

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 06:57 AM
Sage is our back up QB. I would like to hear from those who have gone to parctice how he looked against our 1st team D as we will most likely not see him against a first team D this preseason.

I just cannot believe we spent that much money for a QB in this system. I have no doubt that Kubiak will use his philosophy on QB's as he did with RB's. Plug and play all the way.

kingh99
08-21-2006, 08:26 AM
Sage has a much better understanding of this offense and looks a lot more comfortable. He will take Carr's job before this season is over.

Umm, Shaun King for the Colts could beat out Carr for the starting spot. Carr has no touch, is unable to think downfield on his feet and other teams know the fastest way to destroy the Texans game plan is to blitz him. He'll settle for dump offs every time and look terrible trying to make the completion. What is that side arm hash he's slinging. Like a said, Shaun King is a more polished passer.

cuppacoffee
08-21-2006, 08:38 AM
Umm, Shaun King for the Colts could beat out Carr for the starting spot. Carr has no touch, is unable to think downfield on his feet and other teams know the fastest way to destroy the Texans game plan is to blitz him. He'll settle for dump offs every time and look terrible trying to make the completion. What is that side arm hash he's slinging. Like a said, Shaun King is a more polished passer.

Wonger? Is that you?..:)

:coffee:

KKHouston
08-21-2006, 08:51 AM
Umm, Shaun King for the Colts could beat out Carr for the starting spot. Carr has no touch, is unable to think downfield on his feet and other teams know the fastest way to destroy the Texans game plan is to blitz him. He'll settle for dump offs every time and look terrible trying to make the completion. What is that side arm hash he's slinging. Like a said, Shaun King is a more polished passer.

So should Peyton Manning be benched? The rest of the NFL found the way to him.. Blitz him. He looks horrible when blitzed. He should be benched too.

Geez... Carr adjusted and played well.

real
08-21-2006, 08:52 AM
]']Whoaaaaaa! 2 identities huh? They do talk the same ...... Mindless Carr Bashing. Seriously, this wonger guy can't understand the idea that, Carr is not doing well and MIGHT have some more room to grow under Kubiak.

I don't think its that so much....I think it's more along the lines that Rosefels has just plain looked better thus far...He has outplayed Carr every way conceiveable...Carr has been given a pass based on potential 4 years too long...I am hoping Kubiak lets Sage get some time with the first team against Denver...

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 09:01 AM
MAn this funny. After watching 2 preseason games people want Sage Rosenfels, what has the world come to. I bet these are the same clowns that called for Banks to be the #1 guy, the same Banks that when hand the start last year fell flat on face. The patience level for fans this year is going to be next to nothing, and it's going to be a rotten year for those that think all of our troubles have been solved in 1 off season. How long has Sage been in the league now? 6 years!!! and hasn't been named the solid #1 guy. Step away from the crack bowl people, Sage is an upgrade to Banks, but he's not the leader to the promised land. Once question before I watch the game tonight, I know that Carr was blitzed a few times and that Lundy was in for a big part of that, was Rosenfels blitzed too like that? Moulds said that they were not prepared for blitzes in this preseason game.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 09:08 AM
MAn this funny. After watching 2 preseason games people want Sage Rosenfels, what has the world come to. I bet these are the same clowns that called for Banks to be the #1 guy, the same Banks that when hand the start last year fell flat on face. The patience level for fans this year is going to be next to nothing, and it's going to be a rotten year for those that think all of our troubles have been solved in 1 off season. How long has Sage been in the league now? 6 years!!! and hasn't been named the solid #1 guy. Step away from the crack bowl people, Sage is an upgrade to Banks, but he's not the leader to the promised land.

The issue is that Sage looks better than Banks ever did and Carr looks more of the same. The rest of the team is showing marked improvement, but we have not seen anything of the sort from Carr.

Carr is our starter, but to imply that he is head and shoulders above anyone's expectations by bringing in a Sage/Banks analogy is shoddy at best and does not tell the whole story in my opinion.

real
08-21-2006, 09:09 AM
]']Carr has been there and done that. When the real bullets come. I mean when the Eagles line up thier best defense out there, I want Carr out there. If it was not meant to be then it will happen......

Kubiak Might bench Carr midway through the eagles game, but he will not bench Carr based on preseason games.

I didn't say bench him...I didn't even say not to start him...I said Sage deserves a shot with the fisrt team...Which he does...it doesn't make sense to not see what he can do with the first team...Why are people so afraid of Sage being better than Carr...If he is better, he deserves to play....

TexanFanInCC
08-21-2006, 09:11 AM
So should Peyton Manning be benched? The rest of the NFL found the way to him.. Blitz him. He looks horrible when blitzed. He should be benched too.

Geez... Carr adjusted and played well.

i thought carr needed to spread the ball more. a few times he had more than enough pressure but the best he did was a little dumpoff. he was too jittery out there. he was making lots of extracurricular body movements. looked tense to me.

Runner
08-21-2006, 09:13 AM
I thought Sage showed some good pocket presence out there. IIRC, there was one time a defender was knocked down right at his feet and Sage just stood in there and continued a play.

I think if you watched Ragone play for St. Louis you could also see good pocket presence. We were bringing a lot of pressure against him, and he showed that he has the knack for making slight movements within the pocket while continuing to look down field to try to make the play.

jerek
08-21-2006, 09:20 AM
The issue is that Sage looks better than Banks ever did and Carr looks more of the same. The rest of the team is showing marked improvement, but we have not seen anything of the sort from Carr.

Not true. He hasn't wowed anybody yet but he's making better decisions with the ball, throwing it away when there's nothing there, rather than getting sacked or running out of bounds for a loss. One sack, which was primarily Lundy's fault, and 0 INTs; don't care how you slice it, and yes, our O-line is much better, but that's improvement. For all of the griping I endured last year about "Carr sacking himself" ... you'd better note he's not doing that.

I will agree that he isn't playing up to "potential" yet and has looked unsettled at times, but for the most part he is getting the job done just fine. Here too -- for all of the griping I heard last year about "the Carr-led team doesn't win" -- we're 2-0 right now under Carr-led offense.

Sage in practice vs 1st team hasn't been anything memorable by my recollection. He threw a number of bad balls and had a few ripped, but they haven't gone a lot of full pads recently so the defense is not going to get pressure. Sage has looked good in his backup time and I think he remains a very viable backup QB.

Remember, Kubiak has made it pretty clear that he's not afraid to hurt anyone's feelings. If he's convinced that Sage is better than Carr, he'll play him that way.

the wonger need food
08-21-2006, 09:27 AM
Remember, Kubiak has made it pretty clear that he's not afraid to hurt anyone's feelings.

That's good because if he benches Carr there are going to be a lot of hurt feelings on this board.

I have no doubt that Kubiak will handle the impending QB controversy the right way.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 09:28 AM
Not true. He hasn't wowed anybody yet but he's making better decisions with the ball, throwing it away when there's nothing there, rather than getting sacked or running out of bounds for a loss. One sack, which was primarily Lundy's fault, and 0 INTs; don't care how you slice it, and yes, our O-line is much better, but that's improvement. For all of the griping I endured last year about "Carr sacking himself" ... you'd better note he's not doing that.

Yes you are correct, my statement is far away from yours. :rolleyes:

jerek
08-21-2006, 09:29 AM
That's good because if he benches Carr there are going to be a lot of hurt feelings on this board.

I have no doubt that Kubiak will handle the impending QB controversy the right way.

Eh, probably so. I like Carr, but I'd rather the Texans do everything they can to win, if putting in Rosenfels is part of that.

I think Carr is the rightful starter but I love that I trust our coaching staff will have no problems putting him on the bench if not.

the wonger need food
08-21-2006, 09:30 AM
It certainly doesn't hurt my feelings if you criticize Carr.. (I'll pass on your bait attempt by calling him Davey}. In fact, most of the people posting offer something intelligent on why they feel the way they do. When I read your posts about him, all I see is pot-stirring.

You obviously don't support Kubiak's decision as it stands now. We all understand that. However, the fact remains that Carr is the starter, and will be until Kubiak decides to bench him. You can whine after every game... it's not going to matter. You're not in charge, you won't be, and you're in the minority on your opinion.

Your posts appear to be inflammatory. They don't offer anything on the subject that is new. Obviously, you don't like David Carr. However, if you were a fan as you state you are, you'd understand this is preseason. You'd also understand that not every look is being shown right now. Why show everyone you're improved? Why not keep improving and let the victories do the talking?

If the QB goes into a game not passing for 300+ yards, he's a failure. Putting up 17 points doesn't matter to you. The game was won, and Carr contributed. I don't care if he makes mistakes.... the team still won.

Come back mid-season, and let's see what side of the fence you are on.


:fortune:

Of course I support Kubiak's decisions. Read my signature....

I don't need to come back mid-season... I'll be here all season.

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 09:32 AM
The issue is that Sage looks better than Banks ever did and Carr looks more of the same. The rest of the team is showing marked improvement, but we have not seen anything of the sort from Carr.

Carr is our starter, but to imply that he is head and shoulders above anyone's expectations by bringing in a Sage/Banks analogy is shoddy at best and does not tell the whole story in my opinion.
But put that in context and see that Sage as a backup with starter experience is doing decent against 2nd and 3rd teamers, something he should absolutely do. Carr from what I understand hasn't been crisp, but he hasn't been aweful against 1st teamers. Sage has a career passing rating of 68. Enough said.

KKHouston
08-21-2006, 09:33 AM
Of course I support Kubiak's decisions. Read my signature....

I don't need to come back mid-season... I'll be here all season.

You speak out of both sides of your mouth. If you trust him, you would be calling for a change, Sir. You'd refrain from your pot stirring. You simply don't like Carr for whatever reason, and take any and every shot you get to let us know that. It's funny, in a pathetic kind of way, really.

the wonger need food
08-21-2006, 09:36 AM
watching for 30 years wow............I have been playing for 15 years and have had try outs with 2 NFL teams, playing and watching are 2 different things, time to get a new hobby. From my experience your wrong PERIOD

Let me know when I have said 1 thing that was not true about David Carr or anyone else for that matter.

Hey like I say, you have nothing to be mad at you will be right around....What week 6?........ Sage will be the starter and I will be the guy that does not know anything. So you say right?

I know you as well...............You have been trying to get at Carr for years now, thats the only thing I have ever seen you do, cause you want to be the guy to say I told you so, and I think that is low.

Your just upset that there are probably 3 people that agree with you.

I played for 10 as well and from my experience you defend Carr no matter how bad he looks so it's pointless to argue your points.

I post on a lot of subjects, not just Carr. Do your research.

A lot more than 3 people agree with me. Did you hear the thousands in Reliant boo'ing Carr last year? If he plays poorly again this year he will be boo'ed again. There are a lot of Texans fans that have lost faith in Carr after watching him play for 4 seasons. Just because they're not posting on this board doesn't mean they don't exist.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 09:37 AM
But put that in context and see that Sage as a backup with starter experience is doing decent against 2nd and 3rd teamers, something he should absolutely do. Carr from what I understand hasn't been crisp, but he hasn't been aweful against 1st teamers. Sage has a career passing rating of 68. Enough said.

Carr is our starter, there is no question about that. I just do not see Carr improving as much as some people like to point out here. He has had time, but does not make the throws. He does not appear to go through reads and does not look comfortable. These are intangible measurements against his past four years. Please point to me a measurable that says Carr is really doing X very well.

I am not dogging the guy, I just want to see some improvement out of him as I see with the Oline, TE play, RB blocking, etc.

Hulk75
08-21-2006, 09:38 AM
You speak out of both sides of your mouth. If you trust him, you would be calling for a change, Sir. You'd refrain from your pot stirring. You simply don't like Carr for whatever reason, and take any and every shot you get to let us know that. It's funny, in a pathetic kind of way, really.
Just stop posting, he wants this thread he started to drag on and on.

Mr. White
08-21-2006, 09:38 AM
Sage Rosenfels=Steve Beuerlein

Some backup QB's can light it up coming off the bench. They fill in well for an injured starter. Then, when they get a starting job, then we find out why they weren't starters all along.

Anybody remember Cody Carlson? Scott Mitchell?

texan279
08-21-2006, 09:39 AM
Let's get the facts straight, we have seen all of two preseason games and neither Carr nor Sage has played a full game yet. Carr in his last game was getting blitzed on what seemed like every play against a 1st team defense and still completed 58% of his passes. Sage has 2 good games against 2nd and 3rd team guys and all of a sudden some think Sage is our answer at QB? Fact is Sage has been in this league for 5 seasons and started what 2 games in those 5 seasons with a career completion percentage of 49.5 and thrown 6 TD's and 6 INT's? If he was really that good I would think he would be starting somewhere in the league. Sage has a couple of good games in the preseason against scrubs and some think he is our saviour sent from above...

Mr. White
08-21-2006, 09:40 AM
Bucky Richardson looked good in preseason games too.

KKHouston
08-21-2006, 09:41 AM
Just stop posting, he wants this thread he started to drag on and on.

Yes, Sir! :hides:

TFL
08-21-2006, 09:42 AM
That's good because if he benches Carr there are going to be a lot of hurt feelings on this board.

I have no doubt that Kubiak will handle the impending QB controversy the right way.


As I said early in this thread Kubiak said there was no QB controversy on channel 13 on the Houston Texans special they had last night David Carr was there guy.

the wonger need food
08-21-2006, 09:42 AM
You speak out of both sides of your mouth. If you trust him, you would be calling for a change, Sir. You'd refrain from your pot stirring. You simply don't like Carr for whatever reason, and take any and every shot you get to let us know that. It's funny, in a pathetic kind of way, really.

I believe that Sage deserves reps with the first team. Just like Weary and Peek and even Derick Lewis if they all continue to make plays.

I think Carr is a great guy, just not a very good football player.

What's pathetic is the extremes that people will go to to defend Carr.

Algebrat
08-21-2006, 09:56 AM
And Bucky Richardson was the best qb the Oilers ever had!!!!!!!!!!!! :pigfly:

Mr. White
08-21-2006, 09:58 AM
And Bucky Richardson was the best qb the Oilers ever had!!!!!!!!!!!! :pigfly:


The best QB to play special teams.

tsip
08-21-2006, 10:04 AM
As I said early in this thread Kubiak said there was no QB controversy on channel 13 on the Houston Texans special they had last night David Carr was there guy.

...so, until/unless he makes any changes, what would you expect him to say?

Battle Red Flash
08-21-2006, 10:05 AM
WAY to early to make this call. I've heard from Miami fans that Sage always looks good in PRE-season.
I'm sticking with Carr.

tsip
08-21-2006, 10:09 AM
]']Whoaaaaaa! 2 identities huh? They do talk the same ...... Mindless Carr Bashing. Seriously, this wonger guy can't understand the idea that, Carr is not doing well and MIGHT have some more room to grow under Kubiak.

...nice touch with the caps on 'MIGHT'

TFL
08-21-2006, 10:11 AM
...so, until/unless he makes any changes, what would you expect him to say?



Well the reporter asked him if there was a QB controversy and he said no. Now this may just be me, but if you did not fully beleive in your QB and you wanted to push him you would say there was a Qb controversy that way he would make David work even harder. So it appears he actually likes how David Carr is coming along.

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 10:18 AM
Carr is our starter, there is no question about that. I just do not see Carr improving as much as some people like to point out here. He has had time, but does not make the throws. He does not appear to go through reads and does not look comfortable. These are intangible measurements against his past four years. Please point to me a measurable that says Carr is really doing X very well.

I am not dogging the guy, I just want to see some improvement out of him as I see with the Oline, TE play, RB blocking, etc.
I've only seen the 1 game so far as I will be watching the other one tonight, but what I saw the 1st game was that Carr was looking center field a lot and making quick decisions. His roll out is very good and he really needs to only work on his passiveness in the blitz. I think he's scared to throw a int and thus won't fire it into the receiver and let the receiver make the play.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 10:23 AM
I've only seen the 1 game so far as I will be watching the other one tonight, but what I saw the 1st game was that Carr was looking center field a lot and making quick decisions. His roll out is very good and he really needs to only work on his passiveness in the blitz. I think he's scared to throw a int and thus won't fire it into the receiver and let the receiver make the play.

Carr looked better the first game, but I was disappointed with his pocket presence on Saturday as there seemed to be fewer roll outs. We know he can roll out and we know that Kubiak likes the roll out. I have always been concerned about him in the pocket and remain as such.

jerek
08-21-2006, 10:25 AM
Carr looked better the first game, but I was disappointed with his pocket presence on Saturday as there seemed to be fewer roll outs. We know he can roll out and we know that Kubiak likes the roll out. I have always been concerned about him in the pocket and remain as such.

Agreed ... I'm not sure why they went away from the rollouts.

HOU-TEX
08-21-2006, 10:29 AM
Carr looked better the first game, but I was disappointed with his pocket presence on Saturday as there seemed to be fewer roll outs. We know he can roll out and we know that Kubiak likes the roll out. I have always been concerned about him in the pocket and remain as such.

I agree with you here. I noticed he seemed quite skittish/antsy in the pocket. I don't think he even looked downfield once. Everything he threw, that wasn't a screen, was a dumpoff. I hope he eventually gains confidence in the line in order to relax in the pocket to make the correct reads.:twocents:

tsip
08-21-2006, 10:31 AM
"make David work even harder"

Carr may have some issues but IMO this is not one of them...

Vinny
08-21-2006, 10:34 AM
Agreed ... I'm not sure why they went away from the rollouts.
probably because these games don't count and smart people will work on their weaknesses in this type of situation.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-21-2006, 10:38 AM
Wonger, Carr has not had the coaching he has needed to develop or displine under Capers, look what Kubiak has done for QB's in the past, at least please give him this year for improvement, If he fails with the correct tools around him then he deserves to sit on the couch with Tim Couch from the Cleveland Browns their previous # 1 pick.......Also he is one of the few QB's in the league that has had to start with inaugural team from the start without a system in place for him to acheive success, look what big Ben did in Pittsburg with a system in place as a rookie......at least give him a chance....

TFL
08-21-2006, 10:39 AM
"make David work even harder"

Carr may have some issues but IMO this is not one of them...



I meant to say to push him.


Meaning that Carr would want to play even more better to keep his starter spot.

jerek
08-21-2006, 10:41 AM
probably because these games don't count and smart people will work on their weaknesses in this type of situation.

You think so? I don't know enough about coaching at the NFL level to comment on his motivation. That occurred to me also but I guess I was assuming that Kubiak was "playing to win" as much as if not moreso than he was interested in experimentation and adjusting the formula.

I agree that the preseason is a time to experiment and to try some things out, and he has clearly done that with many of our units and playcalls.

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 10:42 AM
I am getting the feeling too that Kubiak wasn't necessarily trying to let the 1st few series score a TD in that Kubiak may have been trying certain plays to see where Carr has progressed or show him what he can handle. To not have Carr roll out at least once during his tenure is very odd for this type of offense. Maybe Kubiak was trying to see if he would get happy feet, of course who would have known that Lundy couln't handle the blitz.

beerlover
08-21-2006, 10:49 AM
one things for sure the offensive line is much improved with Mike Flanagan holding the point of attack which before was the Texans true achilles heel. now David needs to re-learn the pocket since he should actually have one to bounce around in while he goes through his progressions.

several pages ago I made the comparrison between coach Kubiak in his playing days to Sage Rosenfels (He played for the Broncos from 1983-91 as the backup for Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway). one might draw the conclusion that he sees some of the same traits in Sage, but I doubt he is ever more than a back-up to Carr even though Kubiak said that Sage has starter potential. hopefully if this happens it will be on the Texans own terms instead of a necessary evil :ouch:

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Let's get the facts straight, we have seen all of two preseason games and neither Carr nor Sage has played a full game yet. Carr in his last game was getting blitzed on what seemed like every play against a 1st team defense and still completed 58% of his passes. Sage has 2 good games against 2nd and 3rd team guys and all of a sudden some think Sage is our answer at QB? Fact is Sage has been in this league for 5 seasons and started what 2 games in those 5 seasons with a career completion percentage of 49.5 and thrown 6 TD's and 6 INT's? If he was really that good I would think he would be starting somewhere in the league. Sage has a couple of good games in the preseason against scrubs and some think he is our saviour sent from above...

Some people are looking at a player on the field, and recognizing talent when they see it. That is why kubiak went and got him from Miami, and Gave him $2 mill to keep him out of Cincinnati......

They aren't looking at the poor mistakes of other coaches with poor noses for Talent.

JakeDelhomme(yes, we are going to do this again) was a back up to Billy Joe Hebert & Billy Joe Tolliver........ when Haslette took the team, he went to free Agency to get a QB.... Jeff Blake, & Aaron Brooks, when he already had Delhomme on the bench. He had 2 starts in NO where he threw 3 TDs, and 5 ints.. 55.3% completion percentage, and a 62.4 QB ratiing.

And while I love David Carr...... it is foolish to think he's ever earned the starting job..... there are many a QB with stats comparable to his, that aren't starting..

& it would be nice to believe David will earn his starting job this year, but from where I sit, it looks like it's being given to him. Kubiak has said that he can do the job, and I beieve that. & I'm fine with Starting David...... but right now, I don't believe David gives us the best chance to win.

We won two games with David Starting....... we will win games with David Starting...... come December, David may very well be head and shoulders the best QB on our roster....... but right now....... I don't think so.

hollywood_texan
08-21-2006, 11:03 AM
10/17 for 99 yards, and their D was making him hurry alot becuase of the o-line and RB not picking up the blitz in the first couple of series. I don't see why you are saying Carr looked like a rookie he didn't do bad.

I think you referring to two instances.

I believe the first one, either Lundy or Carr was out of position. Carr made such a deep drop that he seemed out of the pocket and Lundy was not that far up that the rusher really didn't have to run around or through Lundy to get to Carr. Would need to know the design of the play to know who was at fault.

The other one, where Carr got wacked. It looked a delayed two DB blitz. Lundy picked one guy (the inside guy) but couldn't get the other. Not sure how you can blame Lundy there.

I think Carr is going to get these type of blitz's until he can burn defenses consistently. The risk versus reward is to high in the favor of the defense to not blitz Carr from exotic perspectives. It seems to always deliver results.

One thing I noticed is that St. Louis was bring corners and safeties several times to disguise their blitz. Reminds of the Pittsburgh game.

Carr just needs to start burning defenses consistently or they won't stop this stuff. If defenses don't pay for the blitz, they are only going to bring more heat.

tsip
08-21-2006, 11:04 AM
I am getting the feeling too that Kubiak wasn't necessarily trying to let the 1st few series score a TD in that Kubiak may have been trying certain plays to see where Carr has progressed or show him what he can handle. To not have Carr roll out at least once during his tenure is very odd for this type of offense. Maybe Kubiak was trying to see if he would get happy feet, of course who would have known that Lundy couln't handle the blitz.


"Still, Kubiak wasn't excited about everything his team did at St. Louis. In the first quarter, the Rams had some exotic blitzes for quarterback David Carr, who didn't handle them well.

"We had an opportunity early to make some big plays and be very productive, but we didn't do it," Kubiak said. "It was disappointing.

"You have an agenda, something you want to accomplish. We had some opportunities to get off to a great start, but we didn't handle those situations."

...Chronicle 08/21/06

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 11:11 AM
Wonger, Carr has not had the coaching he has needed to develop or displine under Capers, look what Kubiak has done for QB's in the past....


who are we talking about here?? Bubby Brister?? Griese?? Tommy Maddox?? where is this going??

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 11:19 AM
I think Carr is going to get these type of blitz's until he can burn defenses consistently. The risk versus reward is to high in the favor of the defense to not blitz Carr from exotic perspectives. It seems to always deliver results.

I agree 100%..........


Carr just needs to start burning defenses consistently or they won't stop this stuff. If defenses don't pay for the blitz, they are only going to bring more heat.

If only it were that easy...... I'm not knocking anything you are saying.... just want to add to what you are saying.....

our wideouts have got to recognize the blitzes as well..... understand they need to do something to help Carr out.

When Carr got trampled, and AJ dropped the ball......... that ain't going to work.... or the other time Carr took a lick, and Moulds watched the ball fall three yards in front of him...... not going to cut it.

texan279
08-21-2006, 11:34 AM
Some people are looking at a player on the field, and recognizing talent when they see it. That is why kubiak went and got him from Miami, and Gave him $2 mill to keep him out of Cincinnati......

They aren't looking at the poor mistakes of other coaches with poor noses for Talent.

JakeDelhomme(yes, we are going to do this again) was a back up to Billy Joe Hebert & Billy Joe Tolliver........ when Haslette took the team, he went to free Agency to get a QB.... Jeff Blake, & Aaron Brooks, when he already had Delhomme on the bench. He had 2 starts in NO where he threw 3 TDs, and 5 ints.. 55.3% completion percentage, and a 62.4 QB ratiing.

And while I love David Carr...... it is foolish to think he's ever earned the starting job..... there are many a QB with stats comparable to his, that aren't starting..

& it would be nice to believe David will earn his starting job this year, but from where I sit, it looks like it's being given to him. Kubiak has said that he can do the job, and I beieve that. & I'm fine with Starting David...... but right now, I don't believe David gives us the best chance to win.

We won two games with David Starting....... we will win games with David Starting...... come December, David may very well be head and shoulders the best QB on our roster....... but right now....... I don't think so.

And like I have said before, Delhomme had 2 preseasons with the Saints where his QB rating was over 110 and also had success in the NFLE before being signed by Carolina. All this talk about stats this and stats that, do you know whose stats are comparable? Carr and Sage's stats! The only difference being Sage has thrown 1 TD and Carr has not thrown a TD pass. If you're going to go off of stats Quinten Porter should be our starting QB. Sage has made mistakes and bad throws just like Carr has, and against St. Louis Sage did not have near the amount of pressure in his face that Carr had in that game.

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 11:50 AM
And like I have said before, Delhomme had 2 preseasons with the Saints where his QB rating was over 110 and also had success in the NFLE before being signed by Carolina. All this talk about stats this and stats that, do you know whose stats are comparable? Carr and Sage's stats! The only difference being Sage has thrown 1 TD and Carr has not thrown a TD pass. If you're going to go off of stats Quinten Porter should be our starting QB. Sage has made mistakes and bad throws just like Carr has, and against St. Louis Sage did not have near the amount of pressure in his face that Carr had in that game.

For the last time......... well, until the next time....... I am not saying we should bench Carr, and start Sage..... Coach Kubiak said he could be a starter in this league, so let it go..... if you think it means anything that Kubiak says Carr can get us to the SuperBowl, then it's got to mean something if he says Sage can be a starter.....

& I stand by what I said in my previous post. Right now, I don't think David is the best QB on our team..... the QB that gives us the best chance to win. If you think Quinton Porter is the man..... hey.... you go with that. But come December, David may very well be head and shoulders above any QB on our roster.... if we continue to play him of course..... personally, I think starting Sage does nothing to get us closer to our goal..... I've got to believe Kubiak sees more in David Carr than he does in Sage.

NOt because Sage is "just a back-up" , but because he thinks David can be a better Starter, much the same way that Peyton Manning is a better Starter than.............. Drew Bledsoe.

honestly, I don't understand where all this is coming from..... why do you have to tear one guy down, just to build another up....... poor debating skills if you ask me...........:sarcasm:

texan279
08-21-2006, 11:55 AM
For the last time......... well, until the next time....... I am not saying we should bench Carr, and start Sage..... Coach Kubiak said he could be a starter in this league, so let it go..... if you think it means anything that Kubiak says Carr can get us to the SuperBowl, then it's got to mean something if he says Sage can be a starter.....

& I stand by what I said in my previous post. Right now, I don't think David is the best QB on our team..... the QB that gives us the best chance to win. If you think Quinton Porter is the man..... hey.... you go with that. But come December, David may very well be head and shoulders above any QB on our roster.... if we continue to play him of course..... personally, I think starting Sage does nothing to get us closer to our goal..... I've got to believe Kubiak sees more in David Carr than he does in Sage.

NOt because Sage is "just a back-up" , but because he thinks David can be a better Starter, much the same way that Peyton Manning is a better Starter than.............. Drew Bledsoe.

honestly, I don't understand where all this is coming from..... why do you have to tear one guy down, just to build another up....... poor debating skills if you ask me...........:sarcasm:

Better re-read my posts, I never tore anyone down, I actually said both Carr and Sage have played good this preseason and have comparable stats, I don't know where you get I am tearing someone down. I never said that it meant anything that Kubiak said Carr could get us to a Super Bowl. You say you do not think Carr is the best QB on the team yet you say you do not want Carr benched, why would you not want the best QB starting?

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 12:02 PM
]']Seeing the game right now.... Carr is decent.

LIERS!!!!!!

As expected. An 8 million dollar Qb should lead his 1st team offense to a TD score against a 2nd team Defense.

1-10-STL45 (11:45) V.Morency left tackle to SL 33 for 12 yards (J.Carter).
1-10-STL33 (11:09) V.Morency right tackle to SL 30 for 3 yards (B.Howard).
2-7-STL30 (10:32) D.Carr pass short right to A.Johnson to SL 20 for 10 yards (T.Hill).
1-10-STL20 (9:59) D.Carr pass short right to A.Johnson to SL 12 for 8 yards (T.Hill).
2-2-STL12 (9:21) V.Morency left guard to SL 8 for 4 yards (T.Hill).
1-8-STL8 (8:45) D.Carr pass short right to J.Cook pushed ob at SL 4 for 4 yards (D.Coakley).
2-4-STL4 (8:17) V.Morency up the middle for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
K.Brown extra point is GOOD, Center-B.Pittman, Holder-C.Stanley.

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 12:09 PM
Better re-read my posts, I never tore anyone down, I actually said both Carr and Sage have played good this preseason and have comparable stats, I don't know where you get I am tearing someone down. I never said that it meant anything that Kubiak said Carr could get us to a Super Bowl. You say you do not think Carr is the best QB on the team yet you say you do not want Carr benched, why would you not want the best QB starting?

by saying Sage will never be anything but a backup, is tearing him down IMHO.... nobody comes into this league to be a backup.

and I'll start David over Sage because I think it's possible for David to be the better QB in the long run.... if all we want is a winning season in '06.... start Sage. If we want years of playoff appearances, and at least one SuperBowl in the next ten, start David Carr.

It's kinda like starting Billy Volek over Vince Young..... sure Billy is the better QB...... now.... but get Vince in some real game situations, and before long, he'll be much better than Volek can dream of being.

texan279
08-21-2006, 12:11 PM
by saying Sage will never be anything but a backup, is tearing him down IMHO.... nobody comes into this league to be a backup.

and I'll start David over Sage because I think it's possible for David to be the better QB in the long run.... if all we want is a winning season in '06.... start Sage. If we want years of playoff appearances, and at least one SuperBowl in the next ten, start David Carr.

It's kinda like starting Billy Volek over Vince Young..... sure Billy is the better QB...... now.... but get Vince in some real game situations, and before long, he'll be much better than Volek can dream of being.

I would love for you to find the quote where I said "Sage will never be anything but a backup"...Only thing I said even close to that was that if Sage was as good as some of you guys think, he would be starting somewhere right now...

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 12:20 PM
]']Well then Kaiser Toro, why dont you put sage as the starting QB then.

Hahahahahha!!!!

All I am saying is that most of you guys overreacted cause Carr was not 10/10 or got yards like Manning. I am just happy all of the cylinders are firing. 3 scoring opportunities and your still riding Carr's back.

Phulllease..... Sage lead the team against second team defense and 3rd team defense and you want him to start. Your point of view is MESSED UP! I once remember a prominent member of this board ranting and raving about Tony Banks after leading a 1 minute drive TD drive against the niners. The Tony threw two interceptions.

Not sure what you base your raucous laugter on.

Who is over reacting here? You called people liers after you view our #1 QB against a #2 Defense. No one has said Sage has played against a #1 D in pre season. Your CON-text is the issue here not Carr or Sage.

Brandon420tx
08-21-2006, 12:23 PM
Wow... this thread is still going strong :hides:

I stopped reading it about 6 pages ago

texan279
08-21-2006, 12:25 PM
I would love for you to find the quote where I said "Sage will never be anything but a backup"...Only thing I said even close to that was that if Sage was as good as some of you guys think, he would be starting somewhere right now...


Actually TK, here is what I posted about Sage in the OTHER Carr vs. Sage thread while responding to you....

Originally Posted by thunderkyss
All I'm saying, is that just because Sage has been a backup for six years, doesn't mean that he will only be a backup for the next six years. Surely you can agree with that.

My response was...
I am not saying that, but I am not ready to put in Sage as the starter because he had one good preseason game against 2nd and 3rd team guys on a beat up Kansas City team.

real
08-21-2006, 12:27 PM
I don't know if Sage is "our man"...but I do think that he deserves a chance during pre-season to go with the first teamers....He has looked better than Carr despite playing against second teamers...but at the same time he was playing WITH second teamers also...Carr definitely has all the potential...but as of right now Sage has out preformed Carr and should be given run with the first team just like T.J was afforded the opprotunity....

aj.
08-21-2006, 12:29 PM
Earl Campbell shopped at Sage. He's a runnin' back!

tsip
08-21-2006, 12:32 PM
]']Well then Kaiser Toro, why dont you put sage as the starting QB then.

Hahahahahha!!!!

All I am saying is that most of you guys overreacted cause Carr was not 10/10 or got yards like Manning. I am just happy all of the cylinders are firing. 3 scoring opportunities and your still riding Carr's back.

Phulllease..... Sage lead the team against second team defense and 3rd team defense and you want him to start. Your point of view is MESSED UP! I once remember a prominent member of this board ranting and raving about Tony Banks after leading a 1 minute drive TD drive against the niners. The Tony threw two interceptions.

Who's riding Carr's back?

"Still, Kubiak wasn't excited about everything his team did at St. Louis. In the first quarter, the Rams had some exotic blitzes for quarterback David Carr, who didn't handle them well."

"We had an opportunity early to make some big plays and be very productive, but we didn't do it," Kubiak said. "It was disappointing.

"You have an agenda, something you want to accomplish. We had some opportunities to get off to a great start, but we didn't handle those situations."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4129861.html

HOOK'EM
08-21-2006, 12:44 PM
Sage Rosenfels=Steve Beuerlein

Some backup QB's can light it up coming off the bench. They fill in well for an injured starter. Then, when they get a starting job, then we find out why they weren't starters all along.

Anybody remember Cody Carlson? Scott Mitchell?


Don't forget about Kelly Holcome

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 12:48 PM
I don't know if Sage is "our man"...but I do think that he deserves a chance during pre-season to go with the first teamers....He has looked better than Carr despite playing against second teamers...but at the same time he was playing WITH second teamers also...Carr definitely has all the potential...but as of right now Sage has out preformed Carr and should be given run with the first team just like T.J was afforded the opprotunity....


I understand your post, but I don't believe starting Sage is the answer. I really think Kubiak is here to build a SuperBowl contender, and if he thinks Carr is the guy to get us there, then he should start Carr, and work on those things.

For anyone to think Carr would start this season looking like Peyton Manning, I can understand the frustration. & while TJ has shown some improvement from last year........ debatable really since he was a 3-4 defensive end, I don't think we should expect Carr to turn it around so quickly, with nothing but OTAs and Training camp...... I mean we are talking about NFL Quarterback. It takes years to really learn the position.

I'm happy to see that it's not just the Carr-haters, and Carr-bashers who see David screwing up during a game. I'm glad to see someone on the sideline telling David he screwed up.

Can you imagine if he was going to the sideline saying, " I expected him to go this way, and he went that way" then the coach saying, "Don't worry about it..... Sage would've done the same thing"

Last year, David was playing scared. & we aren't going to win many games if David is playing scared. He played an aggresive StL team this past weekend, and even though he did make some mistakes, he wasn't scared.

There was one play, where he rolled out to the sideline...... looking downfield, he ended up throwing the ball away...... Freakin Jameel Cook was right in front of him, runnig step for step with him towards the sideline..... but he threw it away??

A few plays later, exact same thing...... except he tossed it to Cook, and we got 4 yards out of it.

I was disappointed that he threw dang near the same bad pass to AJ that he threw last week...... And I haven't seen him put a ball out there for the reciever to make a play on. but overall, he looked a lot more composed this week, against a more aggresive D than he did all last year, and against KC.

real
08-21-2006, 01:03 PM
I understand your post, but I don't believe starting Sage is the answer. I really think Kubiak is here to build a SuperBowl contender, and if he thinks Carr is the guy to get us there, then he should start Carr, and work on those things.
For anyone to think Carr would start this season looking like Peyton Manning, I can understand the frustration. & while TJ has shown some improvement from last year........ debatable really since he was a 3-4 defensive end, I don't think we should expect Carr to turn it around so quickly, with nothing but OTAs and Training camp...... I mean we are talking about NFL Quarterback. It takes years to really learn the position.

I'm happy to see that it's not just the Carr-haters, and Carr-bashers who see David screwing up during a game. I'm glad to see someone on the sideline telling David he screwed up.

Can you imagine if he was going to the sideline saying, " I expected him to go this way, and he went that way" then the coach saying, "Don't worry about it..... Sage would've done the same thing"

Last year, David was playing scared. & we aren't going to win many games if David is playing scared. He played an aggresive StL team this past weekend, and even though he did make some mistakes, he wasn't scared.

There was one play, where he rolled out to the sideline...... looking downfield, he ended up throwing the ball away...... Freakin Jameel Cook was right in front of him, runnig step for step with him towards the sideline..... but he threw it away??

A few plays later, exact same thing...... except he tossed it to Cook, and we got 4 yards out of it.

I was disappointed that he threw dang near the same bad pass to AJ that he threw last week...... And I haven't seen him put a ball out there for the reciever to make a play on. but overall, he looked a lot more composed this week, against a more aggresive D than he did all last year, and against KC.

I think the whole Carr leading us to the promise land thing is where we disagree...I don't neccessarily think Carr is going to or is capable of doing so. ..and i don't neccessarily think he can't...But the one thing I know is that if we aren't good enough now, we will be good enough next year to make a legit playoff run...I am hoping within the next two years we can be thinking Superbowl appearances and not play-off births...Sage is/has played better than Carr thus far...If Sage is the better QB Sage should be playing...I know you are making comparisons to Volek, and Young...but it's not the same...VY is a rookie who most people(including myself) thinks has A LOT of learning to do...Carr has been in the league for 5 yrs...Its time..Its been time...Its past time...Carr is not a tomato in the window sill anymore, he's in the salad and dammit if it doesn't taste good im going to take it out....

Mr. White
08-21-2006, 01:08 PM
Don't forget about Kelly Holcome

Sure seems like a lot more of 'em don't pan out as starters than do. If we have a backup that causes a QB controversy, then we have a damn good backup, not necessarily one who could be a good starter.

David Carr may not be Joe Montana, but Sage Rosenfels isn't Steve Young either.

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 01:38 PM
ok I just saw the game, and really to call for Sage to be the starter is laughable. Carr had some pretty good pressure from the Rams defense and quite frankly, it wasn't until after that that Texans started calling for screens and outlets for Carr to combat that problem. Carr delivered some pretty good balls and was only off when the pressure got through. When you get pressure like that the QB isn't going to make some 20 yard throw, just look at Bulger, when he got pressure he couln't do squat either. I hate to say this, but our offensive line still isn't good at pass protection, and sure include the TE's and RB's into that protection as well. I saw Carr get nailed by Chavous when he stayed in the pocket, so as far as him falling under pressure, that just didn't happen, Carr stayed there and was looking for receivers and letting the play develop.

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 01:41 PM
..Carr has been in the league for 5 yrs...Its time..Its been time...Its past time...Carr is not a tomato in the window sill anymore, he's in the salad and dammit if it doesn't taste good im going to take it out....
Sage has been in the league for 6 years now, does he still get a shot then? If everyone is asking for David to take a hike after 5, the Sage should have already called it day and hung up cleats. Sorry folks, the QB positions is the hardest to learn, and there is no good time table to guage by.

real
08-21-2006, 01:50 PM
Sage has been in the league for 6 years now, does he still get a shot then? If everyone is asking for David to take a hike after 5, the Sage should have already called it day and hung up cleats. Sorry folks, the QB positions is the hardest to learn, and there is no good time table to guage by.

You missed the point...He was comparing VY/Volek to Carr/Sage...Time in the leauge has nothing to do with who should and shouldn't start in our situation...Neither does being the QB of the future, because the future is now...And right Now Sage has shown through two games that he is the better QB...Don't get me wrong, because as of right now i still consider Carr to be the starter for our team...All I am saying is that i would like to see what Sage can do with the first team....If he plays better than Carr, he should start....if he doesn't...then he shouldn't....My whole point has been that Sage's play thus far should warrant him some PT with the first team...just like TJ...

Vinny
08-21-2006, 01:52 PM
Sage is kind of a kicked up Cody Carelson...perhaps a Billy Volek level talent. Having Carr not clearly outshine him is troublesome. Carr clearly has more talent, but we all know that. The intangibles and instinct have always been a question mark, and he really hasn't done much to answer those questions. If Carr can't make it work then I think we go after someone as the Kubiak era unfolds. Who wants a Commander Cody/Billy Volek type talent leading their team full time?

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 01:54 PM
You missed the point...He was comparing VY/Volek to Carr/Sage...Time in the leauge has nothing to do with who should and shouldn't start in our situation...Neither does being the QB of the future, because the future is now...And right Now Sage has shown through two games that he is the better QB...Don't get me wrong, because as of right now i still consider Carr to be the starter for our team...All I am saying is that i would like to see what Sage can do with the first team....If he plays better than Carr, he should start....if he doesn't...then he shouldn't....My whole point has been that Sage's play thus far should warrant him some PT with the first team...just like TJ...
Sage didn't have nearly the blitzes thrown at him as Carr did and from I saw Sage wasn't really that spectacular. He floated one over the TE's head and got saved by a pass interference call and their rookie CB easily knocked down a pass that he floated to the endzone. Sage is not that great I'm telling you. He's a very good backup but he does have flaws.

real
08-21-2006, 01:54 PM
ok I just saw the game, and really to call for Sage to be the starter is laughable. Carr had some pretty good pressure from the Rams defense and quite frankly, it wasn't until after that that Texans started calling for screens and outlets for Carr to combat that problem. Carr delivered some pretty good balls and was only off when the pressure got through. When you get pressure like that the QB isn't going to make some 20 yard throw, just look at Bulger, when he got pressure he couln't do squat either. I hate to say this, but our offensive line still isn't good at pass protection, and sure include the TE's and RB's into that protection as well. I saw Carr get nailed by Chavous when he stayed in the pocket, so as far as him falling under pressure, that just didn't happen, Carr stayed there and was looking for receivers and letting the play develop.

Laughable?!?!?!?...You aren't talking to 12 and 13 yr. old children as they should be in school...i don't think any ideas that have been presented in this thread are laughable...differnt? yes...but not laughable...All that has been said is that Carr was outplayed by his backup...thats a fact...You can factor is all the variables you want as to why that is so but the fact still remains...Why are we so afraid to give Sage a shot with the first team ? Does he not deserve a shot ?

powerfuldragon
08-21-2006, 01:54 PM
speaking of cody's... Senor Pickett didn't get any playing time last week. think he might see some against the broncs? or will they wait until the fourth game before the play him?

Vinny
08-21-2006, 01:55 PM
Sage didn't have nearly the blitzes thrown at him as Carr did and from I saw Sage wasn't really that spectacular. He floated one over the TE's head and got saved by a pass interference call and their rookie CB easily knocked down a pass that he floated to the endzone. Sage is not that great I'm telling you. He's a very good backup but he does have flaws.
Sage gets the ball up the field so the offense looks different with him at the helm....Carr has a LONG history of not being able to find guys in the middle of the field/down field. I think the offense looks different when Carr is in there.

Honoring Earl 34
08-21-2006, 01:56 PM
Earl Campbell shopped at Sage. He's a runnin' back!
AJ , did you shop at Sage ? I remember going there when I was a kid ... probably 35 years ago .

real
08-21-2006, 01:57 PM
Sage didn't have nearly the blitzes thrown at him as Carr did and from I saw Sage wasn't really that spectacular. He floated one over the TE's head and got saved by a pass interference call and their rookie CB easily knocked down a pass that he floated to the endzone. Sage is not that great I'm telling you. He's a very good backup but he does have flaws.

And if he has out preformed Carr..What is that saying about Carr ?!? Stop trying to make it look like I'm saying Sage is a beast...Because I don't think he is...I do however believe that he can lead this team better than Carr...I know Carr has more talent than him, but Carr just doesn't play well....simple as that...Sage plays well...Carr doesn't...And Im not going to speak on the bliztes because I don't know it to be true that Sage was blitzed less...I'll just take your word for it....But did you ever stop and think why he was blitzed more ? Maybe the D-coordinator had no respect for him...What would be the harm in seeing what Sage can do with our first unit ?

Vinny
08-21-2006, 01:57 PM
AJ , did you shop at Sage ? I remember going there when I was a kid ... probably 35 years ago .We had a sage card too.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 02:01 PM
Carr's lack of improvement from last year is on him and Kubiak to date. The team looks a whole lot better, but I do not see anything different from the starting QB. When you put him in a live NFL game he looks very consistent over his tenure and with two different coaching regimes.

Where and when will we see the upside and potential of our fist #1 pick?

HOU-TEX
08-21-2006, 02:02 PM
Sage gets the ball up the field so the offense looks different with him at the helm....Carr has a LONG history of not being able to find guys in the middle of the field/down field. I think the offense looks different when Carr is in there.

Well said. The pass from Rosenfeld to D-Lewis was a beauty. Carr just needs to relax, he'll get there.:)

Mr. White
08-21-2006, 02:03 PM
We had a sage card too.


Didn't Sage get bought by Dillard's?

Lately, I've been trying to remember the name of the place where I bought my Generra threads at in the 80's.

Jwwillis
08-21-2006, 02:05 PM
First off, let me say that i am absolutely Pro-Carr as being our franchise QB, and have never waivered in my stance.

That being said, I do believe that he needs to play better, and to be honest, he's been a bit dissapointing. There could be many reasons why Rosenfels is out-playing Carr the last few games. I'll trust Kubiak to handle that. But bottom line is, Carr looks just OK and needs to play better.

I actually haven't seen anything impressive about Carr that he hasn't done before. The typical bootlegs, the short passes, we've seen all that. The only difference is that our TEs are catching some of those short passes instead of just DD (kind of reminiscent of our Billy Miller days).

Our wide recievers don't look like they're getting enough passes, and I haven't seen him throw the ball over the middle or hardly any past 10 yards for that matter. I know the WCO is about short passes and all, but it's not like I've never seen Plummer throw some deep ones. Things just don't look solid. Basically, our offense looks just like it did in season 3 except we have TEs catching the ball. Granted the Oline is a huge improvement but that's about it. It still looks like Carr needs to get "in the zone".

You saved me a lot of typing, thankyou. I'd thow in we are running better but it has nothing to do with Carr. As far as pre-season, Kubiak went into camp saying no positions were locked including QB. He picked a QB that could compete for the job and payed him a 2mill signing bonus. Positions/Depth is determined in the pre-season! It would be a disservice to Sage to not let him compete for the job. Who is better is determined on the field not by Dollars. There are many players who were 1st last yr. that wont be this year because they have been out played/practiced IN PRE-SEASON. Its because he is the QB that people are making a big deal out of it being pre-season.

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 02:06 PM
Laughable?!?!?!?...You aren't talking to 12 and 13 yr. old children as they should be in school...i don't think any ideas that have been presented in this thread are laughable...differnt? yes...but not laughable...All that has been said is that Carr was outplayed by his backup...thats a fact...You can factor is all the variables you want as to why that is so but the fact still remains...Why are we so afraid to give Sage a shot with the first team ? Does he not deserve a shot ?

IF we were looking for a QB.... sure..... but we aren't. We've got our guy, and we're going to make it work. So he needs all the playing time he can get.

real
08-21-2006, 02:07 PM
IF we were looking for a QB.... sure..... but we aren't. We've got our guy, and we're going to make it work. So he needs all the playing time he can get.

Ok....So in your opinion, when is enough enough ???

Honoring Earl 34
08-21-2006, 02:08 PM
We had a sage card too.
We'd go to the deli while my Mom and Aunts shopped . We were to mean to abduct .

Mr. White
08-21-2006, 02:18 PM
Didn't Sage get bought by Dillard's?

Lately, I've been trying to remember the name of the place where I bought my Generra threads at in the 80's.

Just remembered... it was Joske's.

HOU-TEX
08-21-2006, 02:20 PM
Just remembered... it was Joske's.

Were you driving the van in your avatar back then as well? lol:whip:

kingh99
08-21-2006, 02:23 PM
Well said. The pass from Rosenfeld to D-Lewis was a beauty. Carr just needs to relax, he'll get there.:)

I'll be the first to eat my words but the line seems to be holding up it's bargain except when Seth Wand's at LT. DC's the same old uninspired, play it safe DC. So we are going to win Ravens style? Oh boy.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
08-21-2006, 02:25 PM
Kubiak's last project was Jake Plummer, and he didn't turn him completely around in one season. I don't think you guys that want to dump Carr now are being very realistic with yourselves. Carr hasn't been playing on a real NFL team. He is going to be given some time to get his poop together. He hasn't seen this much time to throw since he was a senior at Fresno State. I predict he'll calm down and shine before too long.