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kingh99
08-21-2006, 03:26 PM
]']Seeing the game right now.... Carr is decent.

LIERS!!!!!!

Listening to Kubiak last night I gathered from his comments that Rosenfeld will be relieving Carr if the team struggles with Carr in a game. That's what I heard him say. He said it's great that they have Sage to come in or something to that effect.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 03:27 PM
Kubiak's last project was Jake Plummer, and he didn't turn him completely around in one season. I don't think you guys that want to dump Carr now are being very realistic with yourselves. Carr hasn't been playing on a real NFL team. He is going to be given some time to get his poop together. He hasn't seen this much time to throw since he was a senior at Fresno State. I predict he'll calm down and shine before too long.

Most of us do not want to dump him, we just want to see improvement from DC. That is it.

real
08-21-2006, 03:33 PM
Most of us do not want to dump him, we just want to see improvement from DC. That is it.

Not just that...Some would just like for Rosenfels to be given a shot if Carr continues to play with such mediocrocy...

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 03:34 PM
There are many players who were 1st last yr. that wont be this year because they have been out played/practiced IN PRE-SEASON.

Who??

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 03:42 PM
Ok....So in your opinion, when is enough enough ???

How can you say you've had enough?? It's just the preseason, and we won both games.

If David is throwing passes into coverage week one, and running into sacks(which I don't think he's done yet) then maybe we should consider Sage. But David has really got to stink it up. Like leaving the pocket early, giving up on plays, and taking sacks he really shouldn't be. So far, he hasn't done any of those things.

well, he might have rushed those two passes to AJ(the two bad throws), but IMHO the jury is still out on those. The game hasn't slowed down for him yet.... I'll give you that. Sage seems to be playing at Game speed, I'll give you that as well. But I'd have to see 4 bad real games from David before I'd think we need a QB change.. unless like I say, he really stinks it up, and we have no chance of being competitive.

HOU-TEX
08-21-2006, 03:52 PM
For everyone who think we need to give Sage a try. Why don't we give Quinton a shot with the first teamers? I mean heck, he hasn't thrown an incompletion yet and has a passer rating of 118.8. Look, Kubiak beleives DC has what it takes. Until He changes his mind, DC will be the QB for the Texans. In all reality DC and Sages completion percentage are within .2% of each other. :brickwall :francis:

http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/HOU

real
08-21-2006, 03:52 PM
How can you say you've had enough?? It's just the preseason, and we won both games.

If David is throwing passes into coverage week one, and running into sacks(which I don't think he's done yet) then maybe we should consider Sage. But David has really got to stink it up. Like leaving the pocket early, giving up on plays, and taking sacks he really shouldn't be. So far, he hasn't done any of those things.

well, he might have rushed those two passes to AJ(the two bad throws), but IMHO the jury is still out on those. The game hasn't slowed down for him yet.... I'll give you that. Sage seems to be playing at Game speed, I'll give you that as well. But I'd have to see 4 bad real games from David before I'd think we need a QB change.. unless like I say, he really stinks it up, and we have no chance of being competitive.

Never said I've had enough...It just seems as if DC is the only starting QB in the leauge that has played poorly 5 years straight and still is the hands down starter...That isn't fair IMO...And Im not even asking for a QB change...All I want is legetimate competition at that spot just like everywhere else on the team...Carr hasn't been challenged for his spot since he's arrived, and now we have a back up, that may or may not be a more capable QB than Carr and some people don't even think he deserves a shot with the 1st team...Make Carr Sweat...put some real heat on that spot and maybe he'll step up..if he doesn't then we know what we have to do...Im not calling for Carr's head(yet). I just think that Sage's performance has warranted a series or two with the first unit...thats all...

infantrycak
08-21-2006, 03:52 PM
I'll be the first to eat my words but the line seems to be holding up it's bargain except when Seth Wand's at LT.

What bad plays did Wand have Saturday?

Listening to Kubiak last night I gathered from his comments that Rosenfeld will be relieving Carr if the team struggles with Carr in a game. That's what I heard him say. He said it's great that they have Sage to come in or something to that effect.

I love how things morph with time and desire--Kubiak said David struggled early and missed some opportunities and that Sage was a starting quality QB.

Runner
08-21-2006, 03:53 PM
Redacted.

chuckm
08-21-2006, 04:01 PM
15 pages on Monday 3PM ...... carry on gentlemen

real
08-21-2006, 04:01 PM
You all can defend Carr until hell freezes...I don't have allegiance to Carr one way or another...I don't know him as a person so I don't have any personal vindetta against the guy...I just think that he hasn't stepped his game up in any way...Both games he has played in he has thrown at least two questionable passes...has not looked comfortable in the pocket, and has looked mediocre to unimpressive....I know that kubiak believes in Carr, and everyone wants to live by the book of kubes now...well in that case he also said that he believes Sage can be a starter in this leauge so take it as you may...Im all for Carr..and im all for Sage...they are both Texans...At this point however I would just like to see a real competition at the QB spot...

GP
08-21-2006, 04:02 PM
This is funny. I watched the game and I thought as a team we played good. It was fun watching the team win. Who cares about one player? This is getting ridiculous.

The offense looked good no matter who was at the helm at QB.

I was watching the game and was like the message board should be pretty positive, WRONG. We haven't won 2 games in row in the Pre-Season ever til Saturday. We have probably scored more points in 2 games so far than we ever have have in a 2 game span. I know it's only Pre-Season but better than last Pre-Season that's for sure.

Excellent post. Could not agree more. Nicely done...

Runner
08-21-2006, 04:03 PM
15 pages on Monday 3PM ...... carry on gentlemen

Yes but it wanders between the usual, oft-repeated drivel and interesting discussion. It isn't nearly as bad as it could have been.

phan1
08-21-2006, 04:03 PM
Sage gets the ball up the field so the offense looks different with him at the helm....Carr has a LONG history of not being able to find guys in the middle of the field/down field. I think the offense looks different when Carr is in there.

That's what's got me worried. We haven't seen anything from Carr that we haven't seen before, which is a bad thing. TEs getting involved is the only difference in Carr's play. He's not getting the ball to his WRs; he's not going over the middle; he only sees the front half of the field. Right now, it looks like Palmer is still running the offense, just with TEs and a better Oline. Carr needs to get much better, and I'm worried that he's already hit his peak. The fact that the offense looks different with Rosenfels than it does with Carr tells me that it's Carr and not Kubiak's system.

All that being said, I'm still Pro-Carr for the time being.

chuckm
08-21-2006, 04:04 PM
This is funny. I watched the game and I thought as a team we played good. It was fun watching the team win. Who cares about one player? This is getting ridiculous.

The offense looked good no matter who was at the helm at QB.

I was watching the game and was like the message board should be pretty positive, WRONG. We haven't won 2 games in row in the Pre-Season ever til Saturday. We have probably scored more points in 2 games so far than we ever have have in a 2 game span. I know it's only Pre-Season but better than last Pre-Season that's for sure.


reasonable, lucid posts have no place in this thread ..... go away

real
08-21-2006, 04:05 PM
Carr needs to get much better, and I'm worried that he's already hit his peak.

If thats the Case...I feel sorry for myself..and every other Texan fan..

real
08-21-2006, 04:06 PM
Ok..I have a question for everyone that is "defending" Carr...What has he done that you are impressed with so far? What has he done that has been a pleasant surprise that leads you to think that he has made improvement ?

Bamaborn-Texasbred
08-21-2006, 04:07 PM
If you guys want to start a quarterback that has two career starts and a 49.5% completion rate, I'm glad you don't own, run, or coach this team!

infantrycak
08-21-2006, 04:07 PM
He's not getting the ball to his WRs;

Every pass attempt in the KC game was to a WR. 10 of 17 attempts in the Rams game were to WR's.

GP
08-21-2006, 04:24 PM
That's what's got me worried. We haven't seen anything from Carr that we haven't seen before, which is a bad thing. TEs getting involved is the only difference in Carr's play. He's not getting the ball to his WRs; he's not going over the middle; he only sees the front half of the field. Right now, it looks like Palmer is still running the offense, just with TEs and a better Oline. Carr needs to get much better, and I'm worried that he's already hit his peak. The fact that the offense looks different with Rosenfels than it does with Carr tells me that it's Carr and not Kubiak's system.

All that being said, I'm still Pro-Carr for the time being.

I promised myself I wouldn't do this...but I must. There's something in the Rams game that has me concerned about Carr. His throwing motion, from its beginning and all the way through the release of the ball, is seriously different than Sage AND different from most of the other QBs that I paid close attention to during highlights of other preseason games going on that same evening.

He squats when he rares back, his entire torso seems to rock backward and to his right, in somewhat of a circular motion, during the phase where his arm is going backward, and it just generally looks like Roger Clemens throwing a fastball. In addition, his right hand is releasing ball awkwardly...it's almost as if he is using his arm/shoulder to try and put "touch" on the ball instead of letting his wrist do the work.

All of this, IMO, telegraphs to the defenders the area of the field David is throwing the ball toward...giving the defender a chance to react to the ball. I specifically watched other QBs during that evening's highlight show on NFL Network, and I can say that when they showed slow motion footage of other QBs throwing the ball, it did not look like David's mechanics did.

Watching Sage more closely in the second half, I must admit that he was putting better overall touch on the ball. David is more athletic in the bootlegs and playaction...but he is (as Vinny points out) struggling in anything other than unerneath or shorter passes. I think he has a rocket arm, no doubt, but his throwing motion (to me) is a "tell" that gives a defender (especially a defensive back with good closing speed) just enough to read-and-react and get a better jump on the ball vs. a QB who stands up, does not have any wasted motion in his throwing mechanics, and snaps the release correctly.

I, too, am not anti-Carr or pro-Carr. I tended to be pro-Carr, but after racking up two straight wins (even though it is PRESEASON) and actually feeling proud of my team's accomplishment over two perennially good NFL teams, I could care less if it was Maurice Clarett at QB if he's putting up the production that we need for wins.

Again, don't parse my quotes and frame me as someone who is "turning" on David. I think he is VASTLY more athletic. In fact, we might be staring at David Carr as Elway, and Sage as Kubiak like it was back in the day. Kubiak was probably more "cerebrial" than Elway, but Elway was more athletic and heady in pressure situations. That might be a stretch, but it's all to say that we need to let things play out to a greater degree before acting as judge, jury, and executioner.

See, you CAN have civilized debate if you're sober and happy.

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 04:27 PM
Laughable?!?!?!?...You aren't talking to 12 and 13 yr. old children as they should be in school...i don't think any ideas that have been presented in this thread are laughable...differnt? yes...but not laughable...All that has been said is that Carr was outplayed by his backup...thats a fact...You can factor is all the variables you want as to why that is so but the fact still remains...Why are we so afraid to give Sage a shot with the first team ? Does he not deserve a shot ?
Facts??? What facts, all things aren't equal ie...Rosenfels has not gone against 1st stringers where there is a significant drop off. Carr is without a doubt not perfect....but still is better than Rosenfels, why can't you come to those terms?

chuckm
08-21-2006, 04:31 PM
Yes but it wanders between the usual, oft-repeated drivel and interesting discussion. It isn't nearly as bad as it could have been.


well upon reflection, you're right .... nothing compares to Jan 4th - April 28th ...

nunusguy
08-21-2006, 04:47 PM
Every pass attempt in the KC game was to a WR.
Wasn't Owen Daniels the leading receiver for # of receptions against KC ?

rmartin65
08-21-2006, 04:53 PM
If you guys want to start a quarterback that has two career starts and a 49.5% completion rate, I'm glad you don't own, run, or coach this team!
Wow, those are worse than I thought.

infantrycak
08-21-2006, 04:56 PM
Wasn't Owen Daniels the leading receiver for # of receptions against KC ?

Yes but all the passes were from Sage. I thought the guy I was responding to above was talking about Carr.

tsip
08-21-2006, 05:28 PM
I promised myself I wouldn't do this...but I must. There's something in the Rams game that has me concerned about Carr. His throwing motion, from its beginning and all the way through the release of the ball, is seriously different than Sage AND different from most of the other QBs that I paid close attention to during highlights of other preseason games going on that same evening.

He squats when he rares back, his entire torso seems to rock backward and to his right, in somewhat of a circular motion, during the phase where his arm is going backward, and it just generally looks like Roger Clemens throwing a fastball. In addition, his right hand is releasing ball awkwardly...it's almost as if he is using his arm/shoulder to try and put "touch" on the ball instead of letting his wrist do the work.

All of this, IMO, telegraphs to the defenders the area of the field David is throwing the ball toward...giving the defender a chance to react to the ball. I specifically watched other QBs during that evening's highlight show on NFL Network, and I can say that when they showed slow motion footage of other QBs throwing the ball, it did not look like David's mechanics did.

Watching Sage more closely in the second half, I must admit that he was putting better overall touch on the ball. David is more athletic in the bootlegs and playaction...but he is (as Vinny points out) struggling in anything other than unerneath or shorter passes. I think he has a rocket arm, no doubt, but his throwing motion (to me) is a "tell" that gives a defender (especially a defensive back with good closing speed) just enough to read-and-react and get a better jump on the ball vs. a QB who stands up, does not have any wasted motion in his throwing mechanics, and snaps the release correctly.

I, too, am not anti-Carr or pro-Carr. I tended to be pro-Carr, but after racking up two straight wins (even though it is PRESEASON) and actually feeling proud of my team's accomplishment over two perennially good NFL teams, I could care less if it was Maurice Clarett at QB if he's putting up the production that we need for wins.

Again, don't parse my quotes and frame me as someone who is "turning" on David. I think he is VASTLY more athletic. In fact, we might be staring at David Carr as Elway, and Sage as Kubiak like it was back in the day. Kubiak was probably more "cerebrial" than Elway, but Elway was more athletic and heady in pressure situations. That might be a stretch, but it's all to say that we need to let things play out to a greater degree before acting as judge, jury, and executioner.

See, you CAN have civilized debate if you're sober and happy.


...nice post, with an empasis on winning! IMO, your mention of Elway as 'heady' is absolutely what Carr is lacking right now with respect to pressure. If Carr can deal with his demons (pressure), he has all the physical tools and support cast he needs to excel.:)

Second Honeymoon
08-21-2006, 05:40 PM
Carr sucked his 1st year, sucked his 2nd year, kinda sucked his 3rd year, sucked his 4th year, and sucked this preseason......I just want to know when some of you homers are gonna admit that Carr sucks and will never amount to a hill of beans in this league. The guy is not fluid in his dropback or his reads and does a poor job delivering the ball. He sucks, period.

Now one day all of you guys will have to admit you were wrong in anointing Carr as a victim of circumstances. The guy sucks in any system behind any OL. Yall need to pull down the pictures of Carr from your lockers, lose the man crush, and realize that for the betterment of our team, its time to realize and admit we (and Kubiak) made a HUGE mistake in re-upping his contract.

Did I mention Carr sucks? Because he does.

Thank God our defense and running game look good because Carr is an embarassment to his family, his franchise, and his profession.

doug from the woodlands

swtbound07
08-21-2006, 05:52 PM
Yes but it wanders between the usual, oft-repeated drivel and interesting discussion. It isn't nearly as bad as it could have been.


notice i've been completely absent from this thread....

MightyTExan
08-21-2006, 05:56 PM
I've been in Carr's camp, but what I'm seeing on gameday is not what I've seen in the training camp clips. What's going on his head?

aj.
08-21-2006, 05:58 PM
AJ , did you shop at Sage ? I remember going there when I was a kid ... probably 35 years ago .

Joe Sambito shops at Sage. What a Relief!

chuckm
08-21-2006, 05:59 PM
notice i've been completely absent from this thread....


you're here in spirit ......

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 06:17 PM
Wow I just noticed my threads are being yanked by a moderator, nice. That is going overboard by yanking my threads when I make a good case. I don't care to be called names, but I don't whine about it, I just return the favor.

chuckm
08-21-2006, 06:19 PM
Wow I just noticed my threads are being yanked by a moderator, nice.



surprise, surprise, surprise ...... Gomer Pyle

infantrycak
08-21-2006, 06:19 PM
Wow I just noticed my threads are being yanked by a moderator, nice.

It wasn't me, but from looking at the posts on both sides which are gone, the pot was boiling over. Everyone take a step back and debate if you want but let's all drop the insults. :shades:

TEXANRED
08-21-2006, 06:22 PM
notice i've been completely absent from this thread....
I have stayed out of it as well.

Go Texans:redtowel:

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 06:22 PM
That's just not right. This moderator needs to step back a bit. When you call people names and then get all hot and heavy when they return the favor you don't deserve to be a moderator.

TEXANRED
08-21-2006, 06:33 PM
That's just not right. This moderator needs to step back a bit. When you call people names and then get all hot and heavy when they return the favor you don't deserve to be a moderator.
I once had a Mod call me an idiot and then when I shot back my post and thread was erased.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 06:34 PM
There are no black helicopters. The member and I have communicated via PM.

SESupergenius
08-21-2006, 06:44 PM
Yes and I apologize to xtruroyaltyx because I thought since he was a mod of this thread that he yanked it. It's that damned Kaiser Toro! There's no fun when he's around. :crutch:

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2006, 06:45 PM
Yes and I apologize to xtruroyaltyx because I thought since he was a mod of this thread that he yanked it. It's that damned Kaiser Toro! There's no fun when he's around. :crutch:

Touche all things Anti-Moderator. :)

the wonger need food
08-21-2006, 06:58 PM
Joe Sambito shops at Sage. What a Relief!


I ran into Mark Lemongiello at Weiner's.

Jwwillis
08-21-2006, 08:08 PM
Who??

I want to make the list long for you so wait till opening day. Count last years starters against the new starting line-up. You can answer your own question. Some of the 1's are on other teams, hell Walker was released and not picked up as far as i know. Some that started at some point last year will be on the team as 2's (peek,babin,pane, maybe Orr etc.). Bottom line all the moves will be made before the season starts. Nobody's gonna cry foul in there case! I AM a Carr supporter and always have been but I can't stand the blinders people put on when it comes to competition for the position of QB.

Jwwillis
08-21-2006, 08:16 PM
If you guys want to start a quarterback that has two career starts and a 49.5% completion rate, I'm glad you don't own, run, or coach this team!

We gave Carr the start with 0 starts/ 0% completion rate. We gave Kubiak the HC with 0 wins as a HC. What is your point? Im glad your not an owner too.

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 08:36 PM
You all can defend Carr until hell freezes...I don't have allegiance to Carr one way or another...I don't know him as a person so I don't have any personal vindetta against the guy...I just think that he hasn't stepped his game up in any way...Both games he has played in he has thrown at least two questionable passes...has not looked comfortable in the pocket, and has looked mediocre to unimpressive....I know that kubiak believes in Carr, and everyone wants to live by the book of kubes now...well in that case he also said that he believes Sage can be a starter in this leauge so take it as you may...Im all for Carr..and im all for Sage...they are both Texans...At this point however I would just like to see a real competition at the QB spot...

Sorry, not going to happen....

texan279
08-21-2006, 08:40 PM
Sorry, not going to happen....

What's not going to happen?

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 08:44 PM
That's what's got me worried. We haven't seen anything from Carr that we haven't seen before, which is a bad thing. TEs getting involved is the only difference in Carr's play. He's not getting the ball to his WRs; he's not going over the middle; he only sees the front half of the field. Right now, it looks like Palmer is still running the offense, just with TEs and a better Oline. Carr needs to get much better, and I'm worried that he's already hit his peak. The fact that the offense looks different with Rosenfels than it does with Carr tells me that it's Carr and not Kubiak's system.

All that being said, I'm still Pro-Carr for the time being.


Understood...... do you think we should give carr time to work it out on the field?? or do you think we should start Sage??

I think we need to let Carr work it out, and I think we'll be better off in the long run.

Jwwillis
08-21-2006, 08:46 PM
What's not going to happen?

I think he means "real competition at the QB spot..."

thunderkyss
08-21-2006, 08:58 PM
I want to make the list long for you so wait till opening day. Count last years starters against the new starting line-up. You can answer your own question. Some of the 1's are on other teams, hell Walker was released and not picked up as far as i know. Some that started at some point last year will be on the team as 2's (peek,babin,pane, maybe Orr etc.). Bottom line all the moves will be made before the season starts. Nobody's gonna cry foul in there case! I AM a Carr supporter and always have been but I can't stand the blinders people put on when it comes to competition for the position of QB.

Your previous post made it sound like you saw some second teamers get promoted to the first team this year. The only one I think comes close to that, would be Wand. If Wand starts, then that would prove Capers was screwing around with our talent. IF Spencer Starts, that proves Capers was right, and Wand doesn't deserve to start on an NFL team.

TJ, Babin, Peek, Payne, Orr..... etc.. will be moving to the second team, because of the personell differences between the 3-4 & the 4-3. Not because they were outperformed by someone who won a spot in TC.

TJ may have won a starting job...... but he didn't really replace anyone...... if nothing else, Weaver moves back outside, and Babin looses his job due to moving to a 4-3 defense.

Overall, our starters will be starters from last year, or people we brought in to start..... not necessarily because of the bad play or lack of talent of our guys, but more because we were missing a particular type of player. Weaver..... a true strong side defensive end, and Cowart a middle Linebacker, and Flanagan a Center....

texan279
08-21-2006, 09:02 PM
Your previous post made it sound like you saw some second teamers get promoted to the first team this year. The only one I think comes close to that, would be Wand. If Wand starts, then that would prove Capers was screwing around with our talent. IF Spencer Starts, that proves Capers was right, and Wand doesn't deserve to start on an NFL team.

TJ, Babin, Peek, Payne, Orr..... etc.. will be moving to the second team, because of the personell differences between the 3-4 & the 4-3. Not because they were outperformed by someone who won a spot in TC.

TJ may have won a starting job...... but he didn't really replace anyone...... if nothing else, Weaver moves back outside, and Babin looses his job due to moving to a 4-3 defense.

Overall, our starters will be starters from last year, or people we brought in to start..... not necessarily because of the bad play or lack of talent of our guys, but more because we were missing a particular type of player. Weaver..... a true strong side defensive end, and Cowart a middle Linebacker, and Flanagan a Center....

You do realize that Peek and Babin played in the 4-3 in college right?

Jwwillis
08-21-2006, 09:25 PM
You do realize that Peek and Babin played in the 4-3 in college right?

Leave it alone man. You can't win with logic.

texan279
08-21-2006, 09:29 PM
Leave it alone man. You can't win with logic.

:bananasplit: LOL

cuppacoffee
08-22-2006, 12:58 AM
I went back and read Kubiaks quotes in the chronicle article linked in this thread.

These are the quotes attributed to Kubiak.

"We had an opportunity early to make some big plays and be very productive, but we didn't do it," Kubiak said. "It was disappointing.

and

"You have an agenda, something you want to accomplish. We had some opportunities to get off to a great start, but we didn't handle those situations."

Someone needs to show me where Kubiak singled out Carr as not playing well.

Kubiak isn't shy about naming names, he does not name Carr here.

"We had an opportunity to make big plays".... I don't see where he even specified whether they were offensive or defensive opportunities. The writer took the liberty to assume Kubiak was discussing Carr...:penalty:

"We had some opportunities to get off to a great start" again the writer takes the liberty to assume Kubiak was discussing Carr...:penalty:

Ever think that just maybe Kubiak was referring to defenders being out of position, receivers running the wrong routes, linemen missing key blocks, uhhh...noooooo.

According to the reporter, and a few prolific posters on this MB, its gotta be Carrs fault...:dangit:

QB controversy? I doubt there is one in Kubiaks mind.

"If you're a good player in this league and you think a lot of your ability, you always (want) that opportunity to be a starter," Kubiak said. "(Rosenfels) knows his role, but he goes out every day trying to prove that he's good enough to be a starter — if not on this team, then somewhere in this league.

"Sage is very competitive. He's always under control. He's a good leader who understands football. That's why he performs well when he gets the opportunity."

"He (Rosenfels) knows his role." What is in this statement that makes Carr bashers think there is a controversy?

:coffee:

texan279
08-22-2006, 01:02 AM
I went back and read Kubiaks quotes in the chronicle article linked in this thread.

These are the quotes attributed to Kubiak.

"We had an opportunity early to make some big plays and be very productive, but we didn't do it," Kubiak said. "It was disappointing.

and

"You have an agenda, something you want to accomplish. We had some opportunities to get off to a great start, but we didn't handle those situations."

Someone needs to show me where Kubiak singled out Carr as not playing well.

Kubiak isn't shy about naming names, he does not name Carr here.

"We had an opportunity to make big plays".... I don't see where he even specified whether they were offensive or defensive opportunities. The writer took the liberty to assume Kubiak was discussing Carr...:penalty:

"We had some opportunities to get off to a great start" again the writer takes the liberty to assume Kubiak was discussing Carr...:penalty:

Ever think that just maybe Kubiak was referring to defenders being out of position, receivers running the wrong routes, linemen missing key blocks, uhhh...noooooo.

According to the reporter, and a few prolific posters on this MB, its gotta be Carrs fault...:dangit:

QB controversy? I doubt there is one in Kubiaks mind.

"If you're a good player in this league and you think a lot of your ability, you always (want) that opportunity to be a starter," Kubiak said. "(Rosenfels) knows his role, but he goes out every day trying to prove that he's good enough to be a starter — if not on this team, then somewhere in this league.

"Sage is very competitive. He's always under control. He's a good leader who understands football. That's why he performs well when he gets the opportunity."

"He (Rosenfels) knows his role." What is in this statement that makes Carr bashers think there is a controversy?

:coffee:

Shhhhhhhh...no logical posts allowed in here...J/K

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 01:19 AM
You do realize that Peek and Babin played in the 4-3 in college right?

You do realize the talent pool is spread out a bit more in college?? We signed Weaver to play strongside DE...... Babin and Peek both IMHO are perfect for weekside DE........ just like John Abraham, & Dwight Freeney.

Then we go and Draft Mario Williams....... we gotta put him somewhere.

& again, I have to ask you what was I responding to when I posted that, because you don't appear to know...... understand.

No second teamer on this team from last year has earned a starting spot due to outperforming last years starters....... we have starters moving around...... which Capers more than likely would have done...... given his track record. & we have FAs and Draft picks assuming starting roles...... no where have we seen any of this competition that Kubiak has brought to our offseason producing anything other than what Kapers would have done.

TJ might start, beating who?? Weaver at Tackle........ a position we didn't bring him in to play.

Wand might start........ but his only competition is a Rookie who everyone(other than me) thinks will get the starting spot.

So what am I missing?? do you think Babin/Peek are going to start over Mario & Weaver?? c'mon.....

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 01:21 AM
Leave it alone man. You can't win with logic.


what argument is he trying to win??

c'mon use your superior command of logic to tell me what argument he is trying to win.

FILO_girl
08-22-2006, 01:24 AM
Daaang wonger! You need a bigger spoon to stir this 17 page pot. :shades:


Carry on.

texan279
08-22-2006, 01:25 AM
You do realize the talent pool is spread out a bit more in college?? We signed Weaver to play strongside DE...... Babin and Peek both IMHO are perfect for weekside DE........ just like John Abraham, & Dwight Freeney.

Then we go and Draft Mario Williams....... we gotta put him somewhere.

& again, I have to ask you what was I responding to when I posted that, because you don't appear to know...... understand.

No second teamer on this team from last year has earned a starting spot due to outperforming last years starters....... we have starters moving around...... which Capers more than likely would have done...... given his track record. & we have FAs and Draft picks assuming starting roles...... no where have we seen any of this competition that Kubiak has brought to our offseason producing anything other than what Kapers would have done.

TJ might start, beating who?? Weaver at Tackle........ a position we didn't bring him in to play.

Wand might start........ but his only competition is a Rookie who everyone(other than me) thinks will get the starting spot.

So what am I missing?? do you think Babin/Peek are going to start over Mario & Weaver?? c'mon.....

This is what you said in the post I responded to...

TJ, Babin, Peek, Payne, Orr..... etc.. will be moving to the second team, because of the personell differences between the 3-4 & the 4-3. Not because they were outperformed by someone who won a spot in TC.

You said Babin and Peek will be moved to second team because of the differences between the 3-4 and 4-3, not because they were outperformed. I simply responded by saying they both played in the 4-3 in college, so it's not like something new they have never seen before. Apparently you do not understand.

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 01:28 AM
I went back and read Kubiaks quotes in the chronicle article linked in this thread.

These are the quotes attributed to Kubiak.

"We had an opportunity early to make some big plays and be very productive, but we didn't do it," Kubiak said. "It was disappointing.

and

"You have an agenda, something you want to accomplish. We had some opportunities to get off to a great start, but we didn't handle those situations."

Someone needs to show me where Kubiak singled out Carr as not playing well.

Kubiak isn't shy about naming names, he does not name Carr here.

c'mon...... I agree he isn't talking about Carr alone, but it all starts with David... after the ball is snapped, he is the one with the ball... he's the one that has to do something with it.

Surely he isn't talking about Carr alone, but Kubiak hasn't put Carr above the rest of the team the way Capers did. When he says they screwed up, he means everybody on the field.

According to the reporter, and a few prolific posters on this MB, its gotta be Carrs fault...:dangit:

QB controversy? I doubt there is one in Kubiaks mind.

:coffee:

If the Coach thinks the #2 guy should be starting, then the #2 guy starts....... unless the owner is JerryJones, or Dan Snyder......... There is no controversy, because the #2 guy is starting.

It is a controversy when the fans want the #2 guy to start, and the coach won't budge.

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 01:39 AM
This is what you said in the post I responded to...



You said Babin and Peek will be moved to second team because of the differences between the 3-4 and 4-3, not because they were outperformed. I simply responded by saying they both played in the 4-3 in college, so it's not like something new they have never seen before. Apparently you do not understand.

is there another reason why Babin/Peek will end up on the second team?? Did they lose their spot to a DE we had on our team last year??

We needed a strong side DE...... we went and got Weaver in FA..... that moves Peek(IMHO) to the second team...... not because he got outplayed by anyone, but because our two DEs Babin & Peek are too small to play strongside DE......

Then we go and draft Mario..... another DE........ Babin get's bumped to the second team.... sure, we experimented with Weaver at tackle, but TJ proved to be a better tackle than Weaver, so that moves Weaver back to DE, and Babin back to the bench.

I understand you have a grasp of what I said. But you don't seem to understand why I said what I said. You think I don't know crap..... so you tell me Babin & Peek played DE in 4-3 college programs..... but that had absolutely nothing to do with the argument I was in before you butted in.

Babin and Peek lost their starting jobs because of the differences between the 4-3 and the 3-4..... so far....

chances are, our team would be better with Mario on the strong side, and either Babin or Peek on the weekside...... then we'll have a situation where Babin/Peek beats out a guy who wasn't on our team last year.

Still, that doesn't hurt my argument..... this "competition at every position" coachspeak hasn't produced any starters who wouldn't have started last year.

If Sanders starts over PBuch, that would be something....

texan279
08-22-2006, 01:51 AM
is there another reason why Babin/Peek will end up on the second team?? Did they lose their spot to a DE we had on our team last year??

We needed a strong side DE...... we went and got Weaver in FA..... that moves Peek(IMHO) to the second team...... not because he got outplayed by anyone, but because our two DEs Babin & Peek are too small to play strongside DE......

Then we go and draft Mario..... another DE........ Babin get's bumped to the second team.... sure, we experimented with Weaver at tackle, but TJ proved to be a better tackle than Weaver, so that moves Weaver back to DE, and Babin back to the bench.

I understand you have a grasp of what I said. But you don't seem to understand why I said what I said. You think I don't know crap..... so you tell me Babin & Peek played DE in 4-3 college programs..... but that had absolutely nothing to do with the argument I was in before you butted in.

Babin and Peek lost their starting jobs because of the differences between the 4-3 and the 3-4..... so far....

chances are, our team would be better with Mario on the strong side, and either Babin or Peek on the weekside...... then we'll have a situation where Babin/Peek beats out a guy who wasn't on our team last year.

Still, that doesn't hurt my argument..... this "competition at every position" coachspeak hasn't produced any starters who wouldn't have started last year.

If Sanders starts over PBuch, that would be something....

I didn't "butt into anything", this is a public messageboard where anyone can post anywhere. If you had explained your original case for Babin and Peek being moved to the second team to where someone could understand it, I would not have responded. Once again, your opriginal post...

TJ, Babin, Peek, Payne, Orr..... etc.. will be moving to the second team, because of the personell differences between the 3-4 & the 4-3. Not because they were outperformed by someone who won a spot in TC.

Now you say they will be moved to the second team because of Weaver and Mario playing DE. That has absolutely nothing to do with "personnel changes between the 3-4 and 4-3", which is what you said. It has everything to do with 2 guys being brought in who are better at DE than Babin and Peek if Weaver earns the starting DE spot. Babin and Peek, if they both lose their starting jobs, do not lose them because "of the differences between the 4-3 and the 3-4" as you say, but because Weaver and Mario are better DE's than Peek and Babin. I have no idea why the 3-4 is even being discussed in regard to our 4-3 DE's.

And you said "You still think I don't know crap". Please lead me to where I ever said this or post a quote of where I posted this, because I never said anything like that. You shouldn't assume things.

HJam72
08-22-2006, 02:08 AM
Superior logic has been deemed "unfair" and is not allowed on the message board. It's more fun without it anyway.

This message has been brought to you by :homer: and :chicken:.

Thank you.

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 02:37 AM
I didn't "butt into anything", this is a public messageboard where anyone can post anywhere. If you had explained your original case for Babin and Peek being moved to the second team to where someone could understand it, I would not have responded. Once again, your opriginal post...



Now you say they will be moved to the second team because of Weaver and Mario playing DE. That has absolutely nothing to do with "personnel changes between the 3-4 and 4-3", which is what you said. It has everything to do with 2 guys being brought in who are better at DE than Babin and Peek if Weaver earns the starting DE spot. Babin and Peek, if they both lose their starting jobs, do not lose them because "of the differences between the 4-3 and the 3-4" as you say, but because Weaver and Mario are better DE's than Peek and Babin. I have no idea why the 3-4 is even being discussed in regard to our 4-3 DE's.

And you said "You still think I don't know crap". Please lead me to where I ever said this or post a quote of where I posted this, because I never said anything like that. You shouldn't assume things.

Try readint what I quoted, and put that together with what I said. they go together.... you butted in and started into arguing with me.. it don't matter what I say, you for some reason want to argue with me, without looking at the facts.... or the whole argument..... watch....

The sky is blue......

& Babin & Peek have outplayed Mario & Weaver as DE....... but that's a whole nother argument.

texan279
08-22-2006, 02:54 AM
Try readint what I quoted, and put that together with what I said. they go together.... you butted in and started into arguing with me.. it don't matter what I say, you for some reason want to argue with me, without looking at the facts.... or the whole argument..... watch....

The sky is blue......

& Babin & Peek have outplayed Mario & Weaver as DE....... but that's a whole nother argument.

For the second time, I did not butt in, this is a public forum where we are allowed to post thoughts and opinions, you act as if I butted into a private conversation. Second, I never started an argument, I only stated that Babin and Peek played in the 4-3 in college and you went off. Third I see no facts, just your opinion that if Babin and Peek lose the starting DE spot it is "not because they were outplayed in camp" as you said, which is your opinion unless you have some inside info. Fourth, I read what you posted several times and still do not understand the correlation between Peek and Babin losing their starting spots as 4-3 DE's and the 3-4 defense. Fifth, you say I want to start arguments, as I posted already, all I posted was that Babin and Peek played in the 4-3 in college and you went off, seems to me you take things way too personal for some reason...watch.

HJam72
08-22-2006, 05:57 AM
Try readint what I quoted, and put that together with what I said. they go together.... you butted in and started into arguing with me.. it don't matter what I say, you for some reason want to argue with me, without looking at the facts.... or the whole argument..... watch....

The sky is blue......

& Babin & Peek have outplayed Mario & Weaver as DE....... but that's a whole nother argument.

The sky is NOT blue!!!! :brickwall

It's black, dude. It's dark outside. :)





....oh, was I interupting?

real
08-22-2006, 08:48 AM
Yes and I apologize to xtruroyaltyx because I thought since he was a mod of this thread that he yanked it. It's that damned Kaiser Toro! There's no fun when he's around. :crutch:

Im not a mod; and the whole thing was silly because I wasn't even arguing against what you were saying and thats why I chose to leave it alone...But it's all good...

HJam72
08-22-2006, 09:02 AM
Non-moderators can yank other's posts? You mean I could've been tickin' people off all this time? :lightbulb:

Doom Capers
08-22-2006, 09:04 AM
is this thread still alive?

delete

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 09:09 AM
The sky is NOT blue!!!! :brickwall

It's black, dude. It's dark outside. :)





....oh, was I interupting?

interrupt all you want, this is a public forum. but if you join an argument, stay on topic.

Why did we go after a DE in FA?? Was it because ours weren't any good, or was it because we didn't have one that would fit the 4-3 Strongside DE mold?? So since we switched to the 4-3, and got a DE in FA, Peek lost his starting job. We haven't even got to OTAs yet.... nobody beat anybody out of anything. Weaver fits the mold of a 4-3 strongside DE...... he starts. period. So we draft Mario Williams..... coach wants to use him primarily at strongside, so we move Weaver inside... but TJ plays better at tackle than Weaver, so we move Weaver back to strongside, we have to move Williams to the weekside....... Babin looses his starting job. Had we stayed with the 3-4, both Babin & Peek would be starting on the outside, Mario & TJ would be the DEs, and Seth would be our NoseTackle.


There are many players who were 1st last yr. that wont be this year because they have been out played/practiced IN PRE-SEASON. Its because he is the QB that people are making a big deal out of it being pre-season.


Who??


I want to make the list long for you so wait till opening day. Count last years starters against the new starting line-up. You can answer your own question. Some of the 1's are on other teams, hell Walker was released and not picked up as far as i know. Some that started at some point last year will be on the team as 2's (peek,babin,pane, maybe Orr etc.). Bottom line all the moves will be made before the season starts. Nobody's gonna cry foul in there case! I AM a Carr supporter and always have been but I can't stand the blinders people put on when it comes to competition for the position of QB.


Your previous post made it sound like you saw some second teamers get promoted to the first team this year. The only one I think comes close to that, would be Wand. If Wand starts, then that would prove Capers was screwing around with our talent. IF Spencer Starts, that proves Capers was right, and Wand doesn't deserve to start on an NFL team.

TJ, Babin, Peek, Payne, Orr..... etc.. will be moving to the second team, because of the personell differences between the 3-4 & the 4-3. Not because they were outperformed by someone who won a spot in TC.

TJ may have won a starting job...... but he didn't really replace anyone...... if nothing else, Weaver moves back outside, and Babin looses his job due to moving to a 4-3 defense.

Overall, our starters will be starters from last year, or people we brought in to start..... not necessarily because of the bad play or lack of talent of our guys, but more because we were missing a particular type of player. Weaver..... a true strong side defensive end, and Cowart a middle Linebacker, and Flanagan a Center....


You do realize that Peek and Babin played in the 4-3 in college right?


Do you see how the "Peek & Babin played in a 4-3 in college" argument doesn't fit in the "People are loosing positions due to being outplayed" argument??

A better argument would be to tell me who outplayed Babin, and who outplayed Antwoin. Heck, I played DE in college....... but that information is irrelevant, because it has nothing to do with the argument.

texan279
08-22-2006, 09:21 AM
interrupt all you want, this is a public forum. but if you join an argument, stay on topic.

Why did we go after a DE in FA?? Was it because ours weren't any good, or was it because we didn't have one that would fit the 4-3 Strongside DE mold?? So since we switched to the 4-3, and got a DE in FA, Peek lost his starting job. We haven't even got to OTAs yet.... nobody beat anybody out of anything. Weaver fits the mold of a 4-3 strongside DE...... he starts. period. So we draft Mario Williams..... coach wants to use him primarily at strongside, so we move Weaver inside... but TJ plays better at tackle than Weaver, so we move Weaver back to strongside, we have to move Williams to the weekside....... Babin looses his starting job. Had we stayed with the 3-4, both Babin & Peek would be starting on the outside, Mario & TJ would be the DEs, and Seth would be our NoseTackle.


Do you see how the "Peek & Babin played in a 4-3 in college" argument doesn't fit in the "People are loosing positions due to being outplayed" argument??

A better argument would be to tell me who outplayed Babin, and who outplayed Antwoin. Heck, I played DE in college....... but that information is irrelevant, because it has nothing to do with the argument.

It wasn't an argument, I was stating a fact. In fact, you said guys like Babin and Peek would be losing starting positions "not because of being outplayed" but "because of personnel differences between the 4-3 and the 3-4". So your side had nothing to do with anyone being "outplayed", go back and read what you wrote...

TJ, Babin, Peek, Payne, Orr..... etc.. will be moving to the second team, because of the personell differences between the 3-4 & the 4-3. Not because they were outperformed by someone who won a spot in TC.

So do you see how me stating Babin and Peek played the 4-3 in college has to relate with what you said...

TJ, Babin, Peek, Payne, Orr..... etc.. will be moving to the second team, because of the personell differences between the 3-4 & the 4-3. Not because they were outperformed by someone who won a spot in TC

I honestly do not know how I can make it any clearer.

real
08-22-2006, 09:29 AM
I think they are going to second team because a little of both..Peek is on Second team because he is just a pass rusher, and Babin got moved because weaver needed to start at DE

texan279
08-22-2006, 09:32 AM
There are two reasons these guys would be moved to the second team, Mario Williams and Anthony Weaver.

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 09:54 AM
There are two reasons these guys would be moved to the second team, Mario Williams and Anthony Weaver.


If we stayed with a 3-4, we wouldn't have signed Weaver...... Mario would be a DE, Babin & Peek would still be starting.........

But since we went to a 4-3, we needed a bigger DE to play on the strong side. we ended up getting two.. we spent too much money to put weaver or Mario on the bench....... I haven't seen the practices, but Babin & Peek are still our best DEs..... our best line up, would be a 3-4 front.... Peek, Mario, Seth, TJ, Babin. But our best 4-3 would be Peek, Mario, TJ, Babin. From what I've seen so far.

TexanFanInCC
08-22-2006, 10:10 AM
this went from being a sage rosenfels thread to a defensive line thread :challenge


i dont care what happens and who plays where as long as we are tallying up the W's

tsip
08-22-2006, 12:49 PM
[QUOTE=TexanFanInCC]this went from being a sage rosenfels thread to a defensive line thread :challenge


i dont care what happens and who plays where as long as we are tallying up the W's[/QUOTE

AMEN

Jwwillis
08-22-2006, 02:59 PM
Ug this whole post has gone south. Im done with it. Some Carr fans think healthy competition at QB is good for Carr. Is this so earth shattering? All other postions are earned why not Carrs?

Did you read todays article in the chron?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4132264.html

Does it seem to you starting postions have ben handed out for the rest of the team? And that the line up will be the same guys as last year? I want Carr to succeed as much as the next guy, but after 4 going on 5yrs its time to keep an open mind. MANY will agree this is a make or break year for Carr and its not beause of 2 pre-season games.

real
08-22-2006, 03:01 PM
Ug this whole post has gone south. Im done with it. Some Carr fans think healthy competition at QB is good for Carr. Is this so earth shattering? All other postions are earned why not Carrs?

Did you read todays article in the chron?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4132264.html

Does it seem to you starting postions have ben handed out for the rest of the team? And that the line up will be the same guys as last year? I want Carr to succeed as much as the next guy, but after 4 going on 5yrs its time to keep an open mind. MANY will agree this is a make or break year for Carr and its not beause of 2 pre-season games.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

BlueThunder
08-22-2006, 03:01 PM
I hope not because if this happens then the team is not where it needs to be.:cowboy1:

11 and 5 NO MERCY:redtowel:

tsip
08-22-2006, 03:06 PM
Ug this whole post has gone south. Im done with it. Some Carr fans think healthy competition at QB is good for Carr. Is this so earth shattering? All other postions are earned why not Carrs?

Did you read todays article in the chron?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4132264.html

Does it seem to you starting postions have ben handed out for the rest of the team? And that the line up will be the same guys as last year? I want Carr to succeed as much as the next guy, but after 4 going on 5yrs its time to keep an open mind. MANY will agree this is a make or break year for Carr and its not beause of 2 pre-season games.

...good post, but you've got to 'toned' down the logic, as some people prefer what is called 'TUNNEL VISION.' j/k, nice post

KKHouston
08-22-2006, 03:11 PM
Actually TK, here is what I posted about Sage in the OTHER Carr vs. Sage thread while responding to you....


:challenge

I am the one that said it. I take the blame.

Now... carry on.

BlueThunder
08-22-2006, 03:24 PM
I'm not going as far to say Rosenfels isn't the QB but I sure hope they convince themselves Carr isn't before the move..

I could live with Sage cleaning up a few games in mop duty or coming in if Carr has a bad game.Were going to find us a QB and Carr just happens to be first which may not be the best position to be in in a new offense.

Another thing is Carr has a totally clean slate and the other 4 years are under the rug.He will be judged under this staff for what he's done in there system.:whip:

infantrycak
08-22-2006, 03:24 PM
Ug this whole post has gone south. Im done with it. Some Carr fans think healthy competition at QB is good for Carr. Is this so earth shattering? All other postions are earned why not Carrs?

Healthy competition is good. The only problem I see going on around here is an assumption by some that the only way to have a competition is for Sage to start a pre-season game or that only the preseason games themselves count. There has been competition going on thru the entire off-season of OTA's, mini-camps and TC. Without any information to the contrary and with several statements and actions by Kubiak my belief is Kubiak is entertaining competition at every spot but still believes Carr has earned the starting job at this point vs. Sage or he would change the line-up. That doesn't just mean in the two preseason games but thru the entire offseason. He knows (and frankly everyone around here should know) you don't come in and install a new offense and try to coach any player to starting thinking and acting differently and have it instantly click--it is going to naturally speed the game up again thinking about the new techniques and system. Real play time against real competition is where the click is going to come if it ever does.

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 03:29 PM
Ug this whole post has gone south. Im done with it. Some Carr fans think healthy competition at QB is good for Carr. Is this so earth shattering? All other postions are earned why not Carrs?

Did you read todays article in the chron?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4132264.html

Does it seem to you starting postions have ben handed out for the rest of the team? And that the line up will be the same guys as last year? I want Carr to succeed as much as the next guy, but after 4 going on 5yrs its time to keep an open mind. MANY will agree this is a make or break year for Carr and its not beause of 2 pre-season games.

I am not a Carr fan......... I repeat I am not a Carr fan....

but there isn't, never has been, and never should've been any kinda competition whatsoever for the starting QB spot. The job is his to lose, and has been since he's been on this team. Kubiak made it clear that David is our guy, and he's going to do everything he can to make him successful. Since he came to Houston, Kubiak has not been shy about letting us know his goal is to get the Houston Texans to the SuperBowl with David Carr as the starting QB.


Now. onto these other open competition spots. Who will start........ or who has the opportunity to start that Capers would not have started?? Who has earned their starting spot??

IMHO McKinney is going to start..... & so will Pitts, unless he's got attitude with Kubiak. Bottom Line, Pitts is better than McKinney, McKinney is better than Weary........ granted Weary is playing well, & probably would start on another team.

Wand, I think, is the only player in Capers' doghouse who has a shot at starting. But basically, he has to beat out someone who was not on the team last year....... a rookie.

Hogdon won't start...... didn't have a chance in Hades....

We are going to go with last year's starters, and FAs we brought in to start, just like we've done for the last 4 years.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-22-2006, 03:37 PM
CAN ONE OF THE MODERATORS, PLEASE END THIS THREAD, IT'S LIKE A VIRUS THAT WILL NOT GO AWAY.........:brickwall

Porky
08-22-2006, 03:39 PM
From John Mcclains blog:

Something I'm wondering about after two preseason games: What if Sage Rosenfels continues to look more comfortable than Carr in Kubiak's offense? Would Kubiak bench Carr and play Rosenfels after he convinced owner Bob McNair that Carr was good enough to lead the Texans to the Super Bowl? It's too early to have a quarterback controversy, but it's clear that Rosenfels is very confident and comfortable in this system. I asked Kubiak Sunday if the Rams continued to come after Rosenfels the way they got after Carr on blitzes, and he said yes.

We'll keep a close eye on this one, of course. It's been a loooooooog time since a Houston NFL team has had a genuine quarterback controversy.

Blog (http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2006/08/kubiaks_denver_homecoming.html)

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-22-2006, 03:47 PM
LIKE I SAID PLEASE END THE THREAD MODERATORS, Carr is our QB, so anyone that does not like it is free to find another team that suits your needs at the QB position and move on with life.....Like I said before please give David One Chance under Kubiak, it won't kill all of you, to do that.....One thing is for sure all of us on here have one thing in common, we love our Texans, and want them to win, so what ever is best for the team only time will tell, just pray for our players, that they stay healthy this season, and we have an exciting year to look forward to, so far the future looks great...

real
08-22-2006, 03:48 PM
LIKE I SAID PLEASE END THE THREAD MODERATORS, Carr is our QB, so anyone that does not like it is free to find another team that suits your needs at the QB position and move on with life.....Like I said before please give David One Chance under Kubiak, it won't kill all of you, to do that.....One thing is for sure all of us on here have one thing in common, we love our Texans, and want them to win, so what ever is best for the team only time will tell, just pray for our players, that they stay healthy this season, and we have an exciting year to look forward to, so far the future looks great...

Here, Here...

Porky
08-22-2006, 03:53 PM
LIKE I SAID PLEASE END THE THREAD MODERATORS, Carr is our QB, so anyone that does not like it is free to find another team that suits your needs at the QB position and move on with life.....Like I said before please give David One Chance under Kubiak, it won't kill all of you, to do that.....One thing is for sure all of us on here have one thing in common, we love our Texans, and want them to win, so what ever is best for the team only time will tell, just pray for our players, that they stay healthy this season, and we have an exciting year to look forward to, so far the future looks great...

Why are you protecting David Carr so much after two mediocore performances? Last time I looked it's a free country, and some of us report what we see. I agree some are looking for anything to bash him on, but let's face it, his first two performances were underwhelming, while Sage was better, although far from perfect himself. So, we can debate other postitions, but not QB. Maybe we should check with you from now on before we discuss what we are allowed to debate.

swtbound07
08-22-2006, 03:56 PM
LIKE I SAID PLEASE END THE THREAD MODERATORS, Carr is our QB, so anyone that does not like it is free to find another team that suits your needs at the QB position and move on with life.....Like I said before please give David One Chance under Kubiak, it won't kill all of you, to do that.....One thing is for sure all of us on here have one thing in common, we love our Texans, and want them to win, so what ever is best for the team only time will tell, just pray for our players, that they stay healthy this season, and we have an exciting year to look forward to, so far the future looks great...


Sage is also our QB.....we don't owe david any more chances. I want to win...feel free to disagree on how to get there, but im not going to stop talking about benching carr because you like the guy...feel free to find another team if you don't like the way this one's fanbase acts.

SESupergenius
08-22-2006, 04:01 PM
From John Mcclains blog:

Something I'm wondering about after two preseason games: What if Sage Rosenfels continues to look more comfortable than Carr in Kubiak's offense? Would Kubiak bench Carr and play Rosenfels after he convinced owner Bob McNair that Carr was good enough to lead the Texans to the Super Bowl? It's too early to have a quarterback controversy, but it's clear that Rosenfels is very confident and comfortable in this system. I asked Kubiak Sunday if the Rams continued to come after Rosenfels the way they got after Carr on blitzes, and he said yes.

We'll keep a close eye on this one, of course. It's been a loooooooog time since a Houston NFL team has had a genuine quarterback controversy.

Blog (http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2006/08/kubiaks_denver_homecoming.html)
I watched the game last night and after reading the threads on this board I came thinking the same thing, Sage didn't have as near the pressure that Carr idid. But I will give Sage credit he did make a couple of throws that were great, but he did miss a couple as well, one for what looked like an int. The pressure that Carr got as compared to Sage was like night and day, from the get go Carr had people coming in at him, Sage had some every once in a while but the pocket still held. So they may have come after Sage the same way, but they didn't get near him. When Carr stood in under the pressure and found his open man, guess what, Chavous ate his lunch. Sage never got that kind of pressure.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-22-2006, 04:02 PM
It's not even a debate, it's called the truth, you, I, and everyone else on this board are just fans, not the coaches, nor the managment, they make the call, not us, and as for right now Porky, David is the reflection of the Houston Texans, until Kubiak say's differently.... So in the meantime stop being negative , and Pray for our players and coaches, that they will make the right call when the time comes.......If Carr does not preform in week 1 by all means replace him, whatever is best for the team is what I wrote about, it's not about liking one over another, it's about team and team only whatever it takes to get the job done:redtowel:

SESupergenius
08-22-2006, 04:05 PM
Ug this whole post has gone south. Im done with it. Some Carr fans think healthy competition at QB is good for Carr. Is this so earth shattering? All other postions are earned why not Carrs?

Did you read todays article in the chron?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4132264.html

Does it seem to you starting postions have ben handed out for the rest of the team? And that the line up will be the same guys as last year? I want Carr to succeed as much as the next guy, but after 4 going on 5yrs its time to keep an open mind. MANY will agree this is a make or break year for Carr and its not beause of 2 pre-season games.
It's not a Carr love or hate thing, you just don't go getting competition every year at the QB positions unless you are not looking to become inconsistant. We made an investment in Carr, backed by the coaching staff and I'd like to see that after one year, not after 2 preseason games where the competition between the two is like night and day. And why is everyone so quick to pull the plug on Carr when Denver took a couple years to straighten out Plummer, who in parallel came from an atrocious team and led them to the playoffs? Get back to me soom with an answer to that one folks.

texan279
08-22-2006, 04:06 PM
Why do some get so touchy about this subject? There is no QB controversy, only a few here that like to stir the pot to make it seem like there is one. It's still the preseason, we are winning games as a team, and we have seen vast improvement in several areas. We should all be celebrating. :chicken:

Wild.Bill
08-22-2006, 04:07 PM
You don't replace David Carr if he doesn't perform well in the first game of the season. This is the guy that this franchise has invested in and who Kubiak strongly supported when he was first hired.

This team is learning a completely new style offense and defense. There are going to be some bumps in the road, but it won't be nowhere near as bad as last years catastrophe. I think you'll see steady improvement and David emerge as the leader of this team and elevate his play to a probowl level.

HOU-TEX
08-22-2006, 04:09 PM
I watched the game last night and after reading the threads on this board I came thinking the same thing, Sage didn't have as near the pressure that Carr idid. But I will give Sage credit he did make a couple of throws that were great, but he did miss a couple as well, one for what looked like an int. The pressure that Carr got as compared to Sage was like night and day, from the get go Carr had people coming in at him, Sage had some every once in a while but the pocket still held. So they may have come after Sage the same way, but they didn't get near him. When Carr stood in under the pressure and found his open man, guess what, Chavous ate his lunch. Sage never got that kind of pressure.

On top of that Sage had Morency doing some nice blocking in the backfield. Carr had Lundy who missed a block or two. I'm not going to say one did better than the other, as it was just an observation of mine.:twocents:

real
08-22-2006, 04:10 PM
It's not a Carr love or hate thing, you just don't go getting competition every year at the QB positions unless you are not looking to becoming consistant. We made an investment in Carr, backed by the coaching staff and I'd like to see that after one year, not after 2 preseason games where the competition between the two is like night and day. And why is everyone so quick to pull the plug on Carr when Denver took a couple years to straighten out Plummer, who in parallel came from an atrocious team and led them to the playoffs? Get back to me soom with an answer to that one folks.

1) Carr has never had competition
2) Carr is not a rookie
3) Consistent in what ? Losing ? thats all we've been consistent in doing
4) and it's not just the pre-season, it's his whole tenure in the leauge thats being added into it


It's nothing wrong with competition...Especially at one of the weakest, least productive positions on the team...

No one is saying that Carr doesn't deserve his shot, and I understand the whole QB of the future thing, but it's JMO that the best QB should play, and right now there are questions about that...

BattleRedRaider
08-22-2006, 04:11 PM
Why do some get so touchy about this subject? There is no QB controversy, only a few here that like to stir the pot to make it seem like there is one. It's still the preseason, we are winning games as a team, and we have seen vast improvement in several areas. We should all be celebrating. :chicken:

*raises hand*

I've been celebrating.

real
08-22-2006, 04:12 PM
Why do some get so touchy about this subject? There is no QB controversy, only a few here that like to stir the pot to make it seem like there is one. It's still the preseason, we are winning games as a team, and we have seen vast improvement in several areas. We should all be celebrating.

Why is QB off limits but we can talk about all the other postion battles...get....outta....town....

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-22-2006, 04:12 PM
Why do some get so touchy about this subject? There is no QB controversy, only a few here that like to stir the pot to make it seem like there is one. It's still the preseason, we are winning games as a team, and we have seen vast improvement in several areas. We should all be celebrating. :chicken:


Thank-you for posting this, some people rather complain, than be happy for our team and new coaching staff, we are winning and that's all that matters, It does not matter who is at the helm, just as long as we win and stay healthy this year........:yahoo: but I'm sure someone will disagree with me and you anyway....

jerek
08-22-2006, 04:14 PM
Wow ... these things are like a virus.

real
08-22-2006, 04:15 PM
Nobody is complaining...How can you be so one sided, that we allow, and encourage debate about other starters on the team, but no one can talk about Carr...get.....outta....town

texan279
08-22-2006, 04:18 PM
Why is QB off limits but we can talk about all the other postion battles...get....outta....town....

I didn't realize there was a "position battle" at the QB spot. Sage and Carr have put up identical numbers except for the one TD pass that Sage threw. Carr has done it against 1st team defenses, Sage against second and third team guys. Look at what Kubiak has done since coming in, do you honestly think if he thought Sage was the better QB that Carr would still be starting? Kubiak wants to win, he doesn't care what your name is or how much you make, ask Gary Walker, Todd Wade, etc. The only place there is a position battle at the QB spot is on these boards. And I never said it was "off limits", UI said there "was no QB controversy except here".

KKHouston
08-22-2006, 04:18 PM
Why do some get so touchy about this subject? There is no QB controversy, only a few here that like to stir the pot to make it seem like there is one. It's still the preseason, we are winning games as a team, and we have seen vast improvement in several areas. We should all be celebrating. :chicken:


Sadly, it's because we have some former high school debate team members on the board, trying to relive their 'Glory Days'. Funny... I didn't think many Debate Members liked football? I thought they were more into Chess...

:hides:

texan279
08-22-2006, 04:20 PM
Nobody is complaining...How can you be so one sided, that we allow, and encourage debate about other starters on the team, but no one can talk about Carr...get.....outta....town

Because the other guys are involved in actual competition for starting jobs. And no one ever said Carr could not be talked about, if that was the case there wouldn't be two 20 page threads on the subject.

bigTEXan8
08-22-2006, 04:20 PM
Shouldn't we be excited at the fact that Sage is doing a good job, and that it's comforting to know that the Texans have a competent back-up QB? This is all I'm seeing. DC will be fine once the season starts. The team needs to get better at having a faster start. It's good they are getting better as the game comes along, but they need to start throwing that first punch. JM:twocents:

HOU-TEX
08-22-2006, 04:21 PM
Nobody is complaining...How can you be so one sided, that we allow, and encourage debate about other starters on the team, but no one can talk about Carr...get.....outta....town

I wouldn't say no one can talk about Carr. Especially when almost every thread on this board ends up in discussion over him. It's probably just me, but I'm sick of talking/hearing about Carr. Until the coach decides otherwise, Carr's the man.:twocents:

edit: now that I think about it, I shouldn't have gotten involved. Sorry guys

real
08-22-2006, 04:23 PM
Because the other guys are involved in actual competition for starting jobs. And no one ever said Carr could not be talked about, if that was the case there wouldn't be two 20 page threads on the subject.Shouldn't we be excited at the fact that Sage is doing a good job, and that it's comforting to know that the Texans have a competent back-up QB? This is all I'm seeing. DC will be fine once the season starts. The team needs to get better at having a faster start. It's good they are getting better as the game comes along, but they need to start throwing that first punch. JM:twocents:I wouldn't say no one can talk about Carr. Especially when almost every thread on this board ends up in discussion over him. It's probably just me, but I'm sick of talking/hearing about Carr. Until the coach decides otherwise, Carr's the man.:twocents:

edit: now that I think about it, I shouldn't have gotten involved. Sorry guys



o.k...:ok:

texan279
08-22-2006, 04:24 PM
o.k...:ok:

Do you have a quote or some inside info about a battle for our starting QB spot? I am guessing not since your only response was "OK". There sure are a lot of articles about competition for starting jobs on the defensive and offensive lines but I have yet to read one about a battle for the #1 QB spot.

SESupergenius
08-22-2006, 04:24 PM
1) Carr has never had competition.WRONG! Kent Graham, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, Dave Ragone.
2) Carr is not a rookieYes, ok. What is your point? Neither was Jake Plummer before he saw Denvers offense, and it still took him a few years to grasp that.
3) Consistent in what ? Losing ? thats all we've been consistent in doingThe only thing this organization has been consistant in is being inconsistant. Every year our offense has gone through some enormous changes and this year we get a new head coach and new philosophy, and new scheme, new players and new blocking scheme and Carr is supposed to be a superstar with all of this in 2 preseason games?? ya ok.
4) and it's not just the pre-season, it's his whole tenure in the leauge thats being added into itSage has a whole tenure of 6 years in the league and yet you are giving him a new slate, why not Carr. Interesting.

No one is saying that Carr doesn't deserve his shot, and I understand the whole QB of the future thing, but it's JMO that the best QB should play, and right now there are questions about that...
The only thing that there is no questio about is that Sage is doing well against 2nd teams and that Carr is doing mediocre with the 1st. That is just a fact.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-22-2006, 04:25 PM
Tony Banks was a good back-up need we say more......:brickwall

real
08-22-2006, 04:26 PM
WRONG! Kent Graham, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, Dave Ragone.
Yes, ok. What is your point? Neither was Jake Plummer before he saw Denvers offense, and it still took him a few years to grasp that.
The only thing this organization has been consistant in is being inconsistant. Every year our offense has gone through some enormous changes and this year we get a new head coach and new philosophy, and new scheme, new players and new blocking scheme and Carr is supposed to be a superstar with all of this in 2 preseason games?? ya ok.
Sage has a whole tenure of 6 years in the league and yet you are giving him a new slate, why not Carr. Interesting.


The only thing that there is no questio about is that Sage is doing well against 2nd teams and that Carr is doing mediocre with the 1st. That is just a fact.

O.K....:ok:

texan279
08-22-2006, 04:27 PM
O.K....:ok:

If that is your only response than there is really nothing to your argument here.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-22-2006, 04:35 PM
If that is your only response than there is really nothing to your argument here.

My response is to be truely positve, not negative, read some of my previous threads, it's about the team not David or Sage, just be happy we have some decent QB's, unlike some other teams the Raiders, Browns etc......like I said we all have one thing in common, that is we love our Texans, and our the greatest fans, pray for our players and staff that they stay healthy in our quest for the playoffs someday, merely that, I could care less who throws the pigskin down the feild to A.J. or Moulds

real
08-22-2006, 04:40 PM
If that is your only response than there is really nothing to your argument here.

O.K....:)

texan279
08-22-2006, 04:40 PM
My response is to be truely positve, not negative, read some of my previous threads, it's about the team not David or Sage, just be happy we have some decent QB's, unlike some other teams the Raiders, Browns etc......like I said we all have one thing in common, that is we love our Texans, and our the greatest fans, pray for our players and staff that they stay healthy in our quest for the playoffs someday, merely that, I could care less who throws the pigskin down the feild to A.J. or Moulds

I am not sure if you misinderstood my post, but I am on your side. I was replying to tru who just kept saying "OK" in response to everything.

Lucky
08-22-2006, 04:53 PM
My response is to be truely positve, not negative...
"To every action there is an equal but opposite reaction." Newton's 3rd law of motion played out in the houstontexans.com BullPen.

I wonder what Sage thinks about all this? I wonder if any of the members of the H-town media have the guts to ask him?

infantrycak
08-22-2006, 04:57 PM
1) Carr has never had competition


Kubiak has said Sage is here to compete several times. Prior to this year neither the other QB's or the coaches seemed capable or willing to push or coach Carr, but there is competition under Kubiak.

Strikes me the folks who keep saying there is no competition (not controversy, but competition) are predominately those who just don't like the result so far. Not you specifically but predominately, ex. swt who will never be happy with any result other than a different QB, any QB starting.

cuppacoffee
08-22-2006, 04:59 PM
[QUOTE=thunderkyss]c'mon...... I agree he isn't talking about Carr alone, but it all starts with David... after the ball is snapped, he is the one with the ball... he's the one that has to do something with it."

I also offered: Ever think that just maybe Kubiak was referring to defenders being out of position, receivers running the wrong routes, linemen missing key blocks, uhhh...noooooo."

"After the ball is snapped"...:hmmm:... David does not play defense, David does not run the wrong routes, and David does not miss key blocks.

"He has to do something with it." Missed blocks means he eats the ball, or throws it away, wrong routes mean incompletions or worse.. interceptions. My point? It ain't always the QBs fault just because he receives the snap.

"Surely he isn't talking about Carr alone, but Kubiak hasn't put Carr above the rest of the team the way Capers did. When he says they screwed up, he means everybody on the field."

Agreement at last. So if the receiver runs the wrong route I suppose we have a receiver controversy. While we are on this subject, is A. Johnson the most overrated receiver in the NFL?

"If the Coach thinks the #2 guy should be starting, then the #2 guy starts....... unless the owner is JerryJones, or Dan Snyder......... There is no controversy, because the #2 guy is starting.

It is a controversy when the fans want the #2 guy to start, and the coach won't budge."

So the controversy is in a few posters minds?

Not in mine, so there is no controversy as far as I am concerned.

:coffee:

real
08-22-2006, 05:00 PM
Kubiak has said Sage is here to compete several times. Prior to this year neither the other QB's or the coaches seemed capable or willing to push or coach Carr, but there is competition under Kubiak.

Strikes me the folks who keep saying there is no competition (not controversy, but competition) are predominately those who just don't like the result so far. Not you specifically but predominately, ex. swt who will never be happy with any result other than a different QB, any QB starting.

I meant that he hadn't really had competition in previous years...But my whole thing is just getting the best players on the field...and I think that's where a lot of people get confused because I'm not at the end of the spectrum where SWT is...

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 05:28 PM
Kubiak has said Sage is here to compete several times. Prior to this year neither the other QB's or the coaches seemed capable or willing to push or coach Carr, but there is competition under Kubiak.

Strikes me the folks who keep saying there is no competition (not controversy, but competition) are predominately those who just don't like the result so far. Not you specifically but predominately, ex. swt who will never be happy with any result other than a different QB, any QB starting.


:ok:

do you think there is a slight chance that Sage will start over Carr?? Do you think Sage can "win" the spot from Carr??

I honestly don't think he had a chance.

But I'm fine with that..... Kubiak thinks Carr is our guy.... then Carr is our guy. Backups don't earn time in Practice, or preseason..... they play, if the first guy can't. That's just the way it is. I'm not hoping Carr gets hurt or anything(I'm not like that) but...... if Sage is put in a situation where he has to produce for us...... I'm not worried...... week one, week six, week 13.... whatever.

I also know that in those situations, if Sage outperforms Carr (in the games Carr plays)... if Sage moves the ball...... if Sage leads us to scores..... if we win games, when Sage plays, and don't win games when David plays, David will get the start regardless when he is ready to play again.

I know...... I have nothing to back that up..... no link... no inside information... nothing whatsoever. But that's the feeling I get.

real
08-22-2006, 05:31 PM
:ok:

do you think there is a slight chance that Sage will start over Carr?? Do you think Sage can "win" the spot from Carr??

I honestly don't think he had a chance.

But I'm fine with that..... Kubiak thinks Carr is our guy.... then Carr is our guy. Backups don't earn time in Practice, or preseason..... they play, if the first guy can't. That's just the way it is. I'm not hoping Carr gets hurt or anything(I'm not like that) but...... if Sage is put in a situation where he has to produce for us...... I'm not worried...... week one, week six, week 13.... whatever.

I also know that in those situations, if Sage outperforms Carr (in the games Carr plays)... if Sage moves the ball...... if Sage leads us to scores..... if we win games, when Sage plays, and don't win games when David plays, David will get the start regardless when he is ready to play again.

I know...... I have nothing to back that up..... no link... no inside information... nothing whatsoever. But that's the feeling I get.


Well that would contradict everything Kubiak has done, said, and been about since he became head coach...Maybe if we were talking about a Culpepper, McNabb, Manning, Palmer, Vick, or even Brees...But Carr has never been on the level of any of those QB's...So why would he automatically get his job back; especially if he was out preformed....

infantrycak
08-22-2006, 05:35 PM
:ok:

do you think there is a slight chance that Sage will start over Carr?? Do you think Sage can "win" the spot from Carr??

I honestly don't think he had a chance.

Are you asking if Sage has the talent to take the spot or if Kubiak would ever let it happen? If it is the latter then absolutely. I think he will be much more patient than the knee jerk fans around here because he was a QB, QB coach and OC for years and knows changing bad habits, bad coaching and installing a new O doesn't happen over night and real game time experience is critical to having it gel for the QB. That said, if he comes to a point where he believes Carr isn't responding to what he is saying and therefore is not improving on a level of play he finds unacceptable I absolutely believe his 1st priority is making this team win and he will start Sage or find someone else if he thinks it gives the team a better chance of winning.

Porky
08-22-2006, 05:36 PM
Based on what I saw Saturday, I am very worried about Carr. He is out of excuses. The Rams made him look like a Jr High QB the first two series. Then the Rams started pulling starters, and all the sudden he looked competent. You don't think the Eagles won't be looking at this film? When Sage came in, he looked like a pro when the blitz came, he delivered it to the right person, and burned the D. Carr has been unable to do this throughout his tenure. This isn't new. Now, he has the weapsons, yet still seems to have the same problems. He looks flustered, throws into double and triple coverage, holds the ball too long and/or panic runs, or simply dumps it off to the nearest safety valve. Rarely does he look deep. I am willing to hang in for a few weeks into the season, but at some point, he has to start deleivering on some of that potential. And, yes, Kubes made it perfectly clear he was talking about Carr when he spoke of missed opportunities. Some of this Carr homerism just starts to become silly.

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 05:38 PM
I also offered: Ever think that just maybe Kubiak was referring to defenders being out of position, receivers running the wrong routes, linemen missing key blocks, uhhh...noooooo."


I agree with you 100%..... I didn't mention defense, because the incident we are talking about was in reference to an offensive series..... at least that was the way I understood it.... I could be wrong, but it doesn't really matter.... I still agree with you

"After the ball is snapped"...:hmmm:... David does not play defense, David does not run the wrong routes, and David does not miss key blocks.

Ok....

"He has to do something with it." Missed blocks means he eats the ball, or throws it away, wrong routes mean incompletions or worse.. interceptions. My point? It ain't always the QBs fault just because he receives the snap.

you know it must suck being David Carr. He's got to be the only QB in the NFL that has reciever's missing routes, and blockers missing blocks, because every other franchise QB doesn't struggle with this.
by thunderkyss
"Surely he isn't talking about Carr alone, but Kubiak hasn't put Carr above the rest of the team the way Capers did. When he says they screwed up, he means everybody on the field."

Agreement at last.


I've been agreeing with you for a long time......

So if the receiver runs the wrong route I suppose we have a receiver controversy. While we are on this subject, is A. Johnson the most overrated receiver in the NFL?

Why not..... who do you want to start?? Lewis?? I'm with you...... you start the thread, and I'll back you up.


"If the Coach thinks the #2 guy should be starting, then the #2 guy starts....... unless the owner is JerryJones, or Dan Snyder......... There is no controversy, because the #2 guy is starting.

It is a controversy when the fans want the #2 guy to start, and the coach won't budge."

So the controversy is in a few posters minds?

Not in mine, so there is no controversy as far as I am concerned.

:coffee:

no... it is a controversy if you have fans who wants the #2 QB to start. We have fans who want the #2 QB to start...... I don't know if we have enough fans to constitute a QB controversy..... I guess we'll have to let McClain & ESPN decide.

again........ I don't want Sage to start...... & I don't think we have a QB controversy.

hit me up when you start the Reciever controversy thread..... sounds like fun.

real
08-22-2006, 05:39 PM
Based on what I saw Saturday, I am very worried about Carr. He is out of excuses. The Rams made him look like a Jr High QB the first two series. Then the Rams started pulling starters, and all the sudden he looked competent. You don't think the Eagles won't be looking at this film? When Sage came in, he looked like a pro when the blitz came, he delivered it to the right person, and burned the D. Carr has been unable to do this throughout his tenure. This isn't new. Now, he has the weapsons, yet still seems to have the same problems. He looks flustered, throws into double and triple coverage, holds the ball too long and/or panic runs, or simply dumps it off to the nearest safety valve. Rarely does he look deep. I am willing to hang in for a few weeks into the season, but at some point, he has to start deleivering on some of that potential. And, yes, Kubes made it perfectly clear he was talking about Carr when he spoke of missed opportunities. Some of this Carr homerism just starts to become silly.

Wow...I didn't know people could be rational...:hides:

real
08-22-2006, 05:42 PM
I

hit me up when you start the Reciever controversy thread..... sounds like fun.

I started a thread a while back about Andre not really being our number one reciever and even made a poll about whether or not Moulds should be the guy...No one wanted to discuss that...I will talk about any player that isn't performing to what I percieve to be the best of their ability...

jdog
08-22-2006, 05:45 PM
:ok:

do you think there is a slight chance that Sage will start over Carr?? Do you think Sage can "win" the spot from Carr??

I honestly don't think he had a chance.

But I'm fine with that..... Kubiak thinks Carr is our guy.... then Carr is our guy. Backups don't earn time in Practice, or preseason..... they play, if the first guy can't. That's just the way it is. I'm not hoping Carr gets hurt or anything(I'm not like that) but...... if Sage is put in a situation where he has to produce for us...... I'm not worried...... week one, week six, week 13.... whatever.

I also know that in those situations, if Sage outperforms Carr (in the games Carr plays)... if Sage moves the ball...... if Sage leads us to scores..... if we win games, when Sage plays, and don't win games when David plays, David will get the start regardless when he is ready to play again.

I know...... I have nothing to back that up..... no link... no inside information... nothing whatsoever. But that's the feeling I get.

Rex Grossman getting the start over Kyle Orton when he came back is a good example of this sort of thing.

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 05:48 PM
Are you asking if Sage has the talent to take the spot or if Kubiak would ever let it happen? If it is the latter then absolutely. I think he will be much more patient than the knee jerk fans around here because he was a QB, QB coach and OC for years and knows changing bad habits, bad coaching and installing a new O doesn't happen over night and real game time experience is critical to having it gel for the QB. That said, if he comes to a point where he believes Carr isn't responding to what he is saying and therefore is not improving on a level of play he finds unacceptable I absolutely believe his 1st priority is making this team win and he will start Sage or find someone else if he thinks it gives the team a better chance of winning.

Ok, that's pretty much the way I see it... Kubiak is looking at the big picture, and looking further down the road than most of the fans... it doesn't matter that Sage plays better, or gives us a better chance to win(I'm not saying that he does.... I'm just saying it doesn't matter)....... As long as Kubiak is seeing Carr progress, and doing the things he asks.... then it's Carr's job to lose.

I also believe Kubiak thinks Sage has the talent to get us to a Superbowl, but he believes David has more upside....

real
08-22-2006, 05:49 PM
Rex Grossman getting the start over Kyle Orton when he came back is a good example of this sort of thing.

No it's not...Orton didn't do ANYTHING besides be out there to fill a spot....His play was putrid...We are talking about a capable back-up...Orton is now third on the depth chart....How about Tom Brady and Drew Bledsoe....Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger...

infantrycak
08-22-2006, 05:50 PM
Rex Grossman getting the start over Kyle Orton when he came back is a good example of this sort of thing.

It would be if Orton had demonstrated anything more than just not playing so badly they lost--124 ypg, 51.8% comp., 9 TD's, 13 INT's, 59.7 QB rating.

jdog
08-22-2006, 05:53 PM
Hey, you guys are the ones suggesting Rosenfels should start. I would say you have anti-Carr blindness if you really think Rosenfels would be more than a Kyle Orton as a starter.

real
08-22-2006, 05:53 PM
Ok, that's pretty much the way I see it... Kubiak is looking at the big picture, and looking further down the road than most of the fans... it doesn't matter that Sage plays better, or gives us a better chance to win(I'm not saying that he does.... I'm just saying it doesn't matter)....... As long as Kubiak is seeing Carr progress, and doing the things he asks.... then it's Carr's job to lose.

I also believe Kubiak thinks Sage has the talent to get us to a Superbowl, but he believes David has more upside....

Now thats something I can understand....And I haven't been asking for Sage to start...All I said is give him reps in pre-season with the first team, and people act like i asked for their first born...But I understand that point of view, and you are correct...But I say Carr has untill about the 3rd or 4th if we aren't playing well...If we are playing well and winning, he will stay put even if he plays mediocre to borderline poor...

real
08-22-2006, 05:54 PM
Hey, you guys are the ones suggesting Rosenfels should start. I would say you have anti-Carr blindness if you really think Rosenfels would be more than a Kyle Orton as a starter.

Get....outta.....town

Brandon420tx
08-22-2006, 05:56 PM
I was watching NBPBSBSILTVJKESPDD, and they had this expert on who was talking about whether or not Carr would be a good quarterback. This is what I heard.

Ok, after decades of dedicated research, I have uncovered to truth about whether David Carr is actually a good QB or not! This is no joke and will once and for all end all disputes about David Carr. --

** Please excuse this interruption, this is a test of your local broadcasting station, BEEEEP BEEP BEEEEEEEEEEP BEEEEEP BEEP beep BEEEEEEP, Thankyou, this has been a test, we will now return to your regularly scheduled program. **

-- and now the Carr debates can finally cease, good night to you all

Well that clears it up.

Basically everyone has a glass half full concept when it comes to David Carrs play (Yay cliche #2 this week, I'm on a roll!)

EX: Carr plays a game and gets 150 yards No touchdowns, No Interceptions, Texans win by 6 points.

Carr haters = "Carr played mediocre, thats all he ever plays, unless he plays horribly then he just sucks. Did you see that one pass that was barely tipped by that linebacker and was 2 feet away from being intercepted by that saftey that AJ almost caught anyway. I mean, that could have been a disaster! Trade Carr!!"

Carr homers = "Carr was near perfection as usual, no INT he didn't get any TD's but we were just so great on the ground today anyways. Carr Carr Carr love Carr Carr to Moulds Carr Carrcarrcarr. He's going to the PROBOWL. CARR CARR Carr CARR"

Seriously, its all in perception, there are people on this MB that will always say Carrs performance was mediocre, and there are people on this MB that will always he had a great game no matter what.

So what I'm really saying is... continue on. :)

jdog
08-22-2006, 05:58 PM
Get....outta.....town

Okay, he would be like a more experienced Kyle Orton. :tease:

Brandon420tx
08-22-2006, 06:01 PM
*deleted*

SESupergenius
08-22-2006, 06:54 PM
It's the knee jerk reaction to this situation by fans that dislike Carr that gets under my skin. They spout off after 3 quarters of preseason play from Carr and suddenly there is a QB controversy. If anything, wait until the 3rd game of preseason when the game is more "season" like in play time and adjustments. IF Carr falls flat on his face then so be it, but he still deserves a little bit of time to adjust to to a new coaching scheme, new players and playbook. There are flaws in his game that he needs to work on (missing an wide open Moulds on a curl last game) but he needs reps to correct them. Jake Plummer played on an aweful Arizona Cardinals team before coming to Denver. Plummer had all the tools and developed into a good passer when he went to the Broncos. I don't know if Carr is as good as Plummer, but I am willing to give him shot, especially after all the knee jerks pleaded for Banks to take the helm and he fell flat on his face.

Runner
08-22-2006, 07:34 PM
It's the knee jerk reaction to this situation by fans that dislike Carr that gets under my skin. They spout off after 3 quarters of preseason play from Carr and suddenly there is a QB controversy.

:soapbox:

Of course it gets under your skin. It's not very reasonable.

The fans are so polarized on Carr we can't have a realistic discussion here.

What the "other side" doesn't like is that if someone makes valid criticism of Carr, such as "he looks more comfortable throwing from the roll-out than in the pocket; he needs to get comfortable in the pocket" - they get the knee jerk reaction of 50 posts saying that he's been sacked 200 times, his coaching sucks, give him time, etc. That's not a reasonable response either.

Both sides are equally at fault and equally fed up; people who want to have a reasonable discussion are sick of it too, because, well, they want to have a reasonable discussion. Add in the people who think being a pot stirrer equates with making foolish posts and we get instant boil over.

In my opinion, people claim they are pot stirrers so they can make unsubstantiated claims using loose logic. I think it is used to cover poor or lazy thinking. Maybe it even signifies the inability to think critically*. Pot stirring is supposed to be taking the other side of a debate with logical arguments or by bringing up alternate hypotheses.


This is the way I see it. I don't have a solution, except to suggest everyone take a deep breath and think before posting. That "everyone" word is the tripping point though. It also assumes people don't want to start Carr flames (either side), and that's not true.


*I mean this definition of critical:
Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment

Not this one:
Inclined to judge severely and find fault

Jwwillis
08-22-2006, 08:15 PM
maybe i can help..

"Healthy competition at QB" does not equal "start Sage". Hopefully it equates to a better Carr. If i say I think "Fred Weary has been terrific in the first two preseason games, he's competing with Steve McKinney and Chester Pitts for a starting job." Everyone is cool with that. If I say Sage has been terrific and is competing with Carr for the starting job, I am a traitor, Carr basher, glass half empty, loser fan and need to find another team to root for. Take it easy! Perhaps Im more of a team fan than player fan.

Anyone ever had a job where you know you were better than those above you but nobody would give you a chance to compete because of company politics?

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 08:22 PM
maybe i can help..

"Healthy competition at QB" does not equal "start Sage". Hopefully it equates to a better Carr. If i say I think "Fred Weary has been terrific in the first two preseason games, he's competing with Steve McKinney and Chester Pitts for a starting job." Everyone is cool with that. If I say Sage has been terrific and is competing with Carr for the starting job, I am a traitor and need to find another team to root for. Take it easy! Perhaps Im more of a team fan than player fan.

Anyone ever had a job where you know you were better than those above you but nobody would give you a chance to compete because of company politics?

well, I don't think there is a "healthy competition" at QB...

if Weary plays better than McKinney, Weary starts..... if Wand plays better than Spencer, Wand starts...... if Cowart Plays better than Ryans, Cowart starts.

If Sage plays better than Carr.......... I am not saying that he has or hasn't.... but if he did...... Carr will get the Start...... all day, everyday..... so if Sage has no possibility of starting, where is the competition & how does that make Carr better??

Jwwillis
08-22-2006, 08:30 PM
It's not even a debate, it's called the truth, you, I, and everyone else on this board are just fans, not the coaches, nor the managment, they make the call, not us, and as for right now Porky, David is the reflection of the Houston Texans, until Kubiak say's differently.... So in the meantime stop being negative , and Pray for our players and coaches, that they will make the right call when the time comes.......If Carr does not preform in week 1 by all means replace him, whatever is best for the team is what I wrote about, it's not about liking one over another, it's about team and team only whatever it takes to get the job done:redtowel:

:gathering: You give us way too much credit. :gathering:

Jwwillis
08-22-2006, 08:37 PM
If Sage plays better than Carr.......... I am not saying that he has or hasn't.... but if he did...... Carr will get the Start...... all day, everyday..... so if Sage has no possibility of starting, where is the competition & how does that make Carr better??

Yikes! Well it doesn't and Kubiak has failed our TEXANS playing politics. You can bet that won't happen.

Porky
08-22-2006, 08:58 PM
well, I don't think there is a "healthy competition" at QB...

if Weary plays better than McKinney, Weary starts..... if Wand plays better than Spencer, Wand starts...... if Cowart Plays better than Ryans, Cowart starts.

If Sage plays better than Carr.......... I am not saying that he has or hasn't.... but if he did...... Carr will get the Start...... all day, everyday..... so if Sage has no possibility of starting, where is the competition & how does that make Carr better??

I totally buy into this theory. No way Kubiak is going to tell Mcnair that he can turn Carr into a SB QB, and then bench him for some lightwieght from Miami who has two career starts. For better, or for worse, we are stuck with Carr until he literally proves one way or the other whether he can play or not.

Jwwillis
08-22-2006, 09:08 PM
I totally buy into this theory. No way Kubiak is going to tell Mcnair that he can turn Carr into a SB QB, and then bench him for some lightwieght from Miami who has two career starts. For better, or for worse, we are stuck with Carr until he literally proves one way or the other whether he can play or not.

Shhhhhh Dont let Carr hear you say that damit!!

thunderkyss
08-22-2006, 09:41 PM
I honestly believe Carr is going to go off this year..... he knows he has too. Kinda like he knew in his third year, with a legit RB, a Legit WR, and a Legit Defense, that he would have to play.... and he did.

It's '07 that you have to watch out for.......

HJam72
08-22-2006, 10:18 PM
It think this scripted plays business and not playing into the second half (against whatever defensive players) is what's hurting Carr. Our offense tends to cause defenses to not allow big pass plays until later in the game when they are getting tired of getting run all over. At least that's the impression I'm getting right now.

Jwwillis
08-23-2006, 02:40 PM
I link this hesitantly since I agree Lopez is a bone head. But, the quotes he uses are worth reading. This is what i have been trying to say on this thread all along. And i think its true Carr has someone breathing down his neck for the 1st time. This has GOT to be good for Carr. I pray Carr does not need to be replaced this year due to performance.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/lopez/texans/4134627.html

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-23-2006, 02:56 PM
Here is a question for all you people who really believe David should sit on the bench this year, and bust the salary cap off the Roof for the next 3 years. Why has Sage not been starting for the Redskins or Dolphins, why has he bounced from team to team, why only 2 starts in his career, Please let me know, the Dolphins QB's since Marino have been nothing special, and here comes Sage, but not 1st string material...Please let me know because we continue to believe Sage is the man on this thread into only 2 pre-season games........

thunderkyss
08-23-2006, 03:01 PM
Here is a question for all you people who really believe David should sit on the bench this year, and bust the salary cap off the Roof for the next 3 years. Why has Sage not been starting for the Redskins or Dolphins, why has he bounced from team to team, why only 2 starts in his career, Please let me know, the Dolphins QB's since Marino have been nothing special, and here comes Sage, but not 1st string material...Please let me know because we continue to believe Sage is the man on this thread into only 2 pre-season games........


Who was the last great QB to come out of Miami or Washington?? Neither team has developed a QB that I can remember in the last 10 years. They tend to go after the hottest FA they can find at the time, and try to make it work.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-23-2006, 03:05 PM
I guess only Marino for the Dolphins and Joe Theisman for the Skins.....not many......from those teams...

HOU-TEX
08-23-2006, 03:08 PM
Why do ya'll keep bumping this thread back up?:brickwall

U4ikrob
08-23-2006, 03:28 PM
Bets NOW, you WILL have a AVATAR of David that I pick and next to it you will say I am sorry!

If the other way goes down I will apologize to you and say that you were right and I was wrong.

DEAL?

Not a Homer, but this is DAvid's break out year IMO.
Ill take the bet too -

I just dont see Sage starting this year except in the last preseason game and wont be replacing Carr this year or the future unless he's injured. Sage has hooked up for some nice passes, but so has David. Over the first 2 games I would give the edge to Sage on Pocket presence, but not in talent or production on the field when comparing the numbers and taking all things into account [big picture]. I think after the next 2 games we will havea much better idea of which QB is developing better and think Kubiak will make the call he needs to make in the end and if DAvid is not stepping up and performing on the field when it counts, I am sure with this being Kubiaks first job, and reputation on the line he's really gonna mold David into the QB he wants for the team. Thus far he's shown no realy problem with ditching players he felt were overpaid and underperforming - I dont see that he will do any different with David, be cause at the end of the day Kubiak/Smith both just want this team to win games and IMO will be pushing the team and its players a bit more.

SESupergenius
08-23-2006, 03:39 PM
I don't see Carr having a breakout year, but I would like to see at least 20 TD's out of this offense. If we can get to that level then I am confident he can go further. I wrote last year that Carr needed more TD's than Int's and he obtained that. This year he needs at least 20 TD's to further progress. If Carr is just absolutely awful by midseason then sure, I can see Kubiak pulling the plug, but so far this preseason Carr has been decent (no int's) and really hasn't done anything to warrant being benched.

real
08-23-2006, 03:42 PM
I don't see Carr having a breakout year, but I would like to see at least 20 TD's out of this offense. If we can get to that level then I am confident he can go further. I wrote last year that Carr needed more TD's than Int's and he obtained that. This year he needs at least 20 TD's to further progress. If Carr is just absolutely awful by midseason then sure, I can see Kubiak pulling the plug, but so far this preseason Carr has been decent (no int's) and really hasn't done anything to warrant being benched.
All you want is 20 TD's from the Offense ? No wonder you're ok with Carr.... your standards are really really low....Manning threw for twice that many by himself...

infantrycak
08-23-2006, 03:44 PM
All you want is 20 TD's from the Offense ? No wonder you're ok with Carr.... your standards are really really low....

You have to consider the system. Plummer had 18 TD passes last year. Denver still had the 7th ranked scoring offense and went 13-3 on the year. More is always better but if the running game really clicks the passing stats will naturally go down.

real
08-23-2006, 03:50 PM
You have to consider the system. Plummer had 18 TD passes last year. Denver still had the 7th ranked scoring offense and went 13-3 on the year. More is always better but if the running game really clicks the passing stats will naturally go down.

But only 20 td's from the offense...he said the offense, not just Carr....Didn't Manning set the record with 49...and that was by himself...20 tds from the offense ? thats less than 2 touchdowns a game...Maybe he meant to Say from Carr...

SESupergenius
08-23-2006, 03:51 PM
All you want is 20 TD's from the Offense ? No wonder you're ok with Carr.... your standards are really really low....Manning threw for twice that many by himself...
This just shows how much of a knee jerk you are, you have absolutely no clue on progression. You want instant success right now and you'll come crashing down as the season goes along and it doesn't meet your overly optimistic eagerness. Good luck on enjoying half the season. I'm ok with Carr to go this whole season as I don't expect us to leap from 2-14 to an instant success overnight.

SESupergenius
08-23-2006, 03:52 PM
But only 20 td's from the offense...he said the offense, not just Carr....Didn't Manning set the record with 49...and that was by himself...20 tds from the offense ? thats less than 2 touchdowns a game...
I hate to tell you this, but there are not may QB's in the class of Manning and that offense....they set records, but don't win the big one. And really, if I am talking about Carr in a sentence and throw in a TD stat, yes I am talking about him, not the whole team to include special teams runs and offensive running TD's. Wow, I can't beleive I need to say that.

real
08-23-2006, 03:53 PM
This just shows how much of a knee jerk you are, you have absolutely no clue on progression. You want instant success right now and you'll come crashing down as the season goes along and it doesn't meet your overly optimistic eagerness. Good luck on enjoying half the season. I'm ok with Carr to go this whole season as I don't expect us to leap from 2-14 to an instant success overnight.

So when did 20 TD's for the season become o.k ?? Knee jerk ? hahahaha...maybe you just made an error...

HOU-TEX
08-23-2006, 03:57 PM
I hate to tell you this, but there are not may QB's in the class of Manning and that offense....they set records, but don't win the big one. And really, if I am talking about Carr in a sentence and throw in a TD stat, yes I am talking about him, not the whole team to include special teams runs and offensive running TD's. Wow, I can't beleive I need to say that.

I think he was refering to the posters comment of saying 20 TDs for the offense as a whole. He was trying to prove his point by giving examples of the QBs alone producing more TDs than that. Relax on the negative bashing of a fellow Texan fan. We all want the same thing: W's

SESupergenius
08-23-2006, 03:58 PM
So when did 20 TD's for the season become o.k ?? Knee jerk ? hahahaha...maybe you just made an error...
You wanna guess how many TD's the Super Bowl champion Ben Roethlisberger threw? I don't know what your fixation on Carr is, but you seriously need to step back and view the whole picture. Our team's success doesn't lay with 1 guy.

thunderkyss
08-23-2006, 04:01 PM
........ but I would like to see at least 20 TD's out of this offense.

I know it's not what you meant.... but it is what you said... 20 TDs from the offense...

which isn't bad, if our defense can match them.

thunderkyss
08-23-2006, 04:02 PM
You wanna guess how many TD's the Super Bowl champion Ben Roethlisberger threw? I don't know what your fixation on Carr is, but you seriously need to step back and view the whole picture. Our team's success doesn't lay with 1 guy.

check my sig.......... gpshafer says it does.

U4ikrob
08-23-2006, 04:02 PM
I don't see Carr having a breakout year, but I would like to see at least 20 TD's out of this offense. If we can get to that level then I am confident he can go further. I wrote last year that Carr needed more TD's than Int's and he obtained that. This year he needs at least 20 TD's to further progress. If Carr is just absolutely awful by midseason then sure, I can see Kubiak pulling the plug, but so far this preseason Carr has been decent (no int's) and really hasn't done anything to warrant being benched.

When I say Break out I am more referring to being able to succeed with some modicum of success on the field. To me if DC got 15-20 TD's and kept his Int/TD ratio down to less than 40% or below I would consider that a really good year and a "Break out" so to speak from his old self and the start of something better to come. I really David coming on big next year after he's had time to digest the entire offense and isnt thinking thru the progressions on the field, the play call, the formation and alignments and just is able to go out and play. I look for DC to really light it up next year after having a year in the system and with the Coach.

IMO - if David doesnt produce highlight reel personal stat numbers this year in the Regular season, yet the TEAM wins games - I would consider that a good year for us and a success for the team. It will take a bit for all the players to get the offense down well enough to just play.

But if DC is producing like a rookie, a few games into the season, I could certainly see a move being made by Kubes. Bottom line David has to keep on his toes and earn his PT like everyone and I dont Kubes will play favorites when it comes down to Winning ball games.

HOU-TEX
08-23-2006, 04:02 PM
You wanna guess how many TD's the Super Bowl champion Ben Roethlisberger threw? I don't know what your fixation on Carr is, but you seriously need to step back and view the whole picture. Our team's success doesn't lay with 1 guy.

Re-read the post! Offensive TDs not QB TDs. sheesh!:challenge :challenge

real
08-23-2006, 04:03 PM
I think he was refering to the posters comment of saying 20 TDs for the offense as a whole. He was trying to prove his point by giving examples of the QBs alone producing more TDs than that. Relax on the negative bashing of a fellow Texan fan. We all want the same thing: W's

It's all good...I was just messin with em...

SESupergenius
08-23-2006, 04:04 PM
I know it's not what you meant.... but it is what you said... 20 TDs from the offense...

which isn't bad, if our defense can match them.
I guess so, but really I made no mention of the running game or any other type of TD and through this whole thread we've been talking exclusively about nothing but Carr and Rosenfels. But I guess I assumed everyone could follow along.

real
08-23-2006, 04:05 PM
Re-read the post! Offensive TDs not QB TDs. sheesh!:challenge :challenge

exactly...I haven't said one thing about Carr..ha...It's all good I realize it was a misinterpretation on my part

SESupergenius
08-23-2006, 04:05 PM
When I say Break out I am more referring to being able to succeed with some modicum of success on the field. To me if DC got 15-20 TD's and kept his Int/TD ratio down to less than 40% or below I would consider that a really good year and a "Break out" so to speak from his old self and the start of something better to come. I really David coming on big next year after he's had time to digest the entire offense and isnt thinking thru the progressions on the field, the play call, the formation and alignments and just is able to go out and play. I look for DC to really light it up next year after having a year in the system and with the Coach.

IMO - if David doesnt produce highlight reel personal stat numbers this year in the Regular season, yet the TEAM wins games - I would consider that a good year for us and a success for the team. It will take a bit for all the players to get the offense down well enough to just play.

But if DC is producing like a rookie, a few games into the season, I could certainly see a move being made by Kubes. Bottom line David has to keep on his toes and earn his PT like everyone and I dont Kubes will play favorites when it comes down to Winning ball games.
I absolutely agree.

real
08-23-2006, 04:08 PM
When I say Break out I am more referring to being able to succeed with some modicum of success on the field. To me if DC got 15-20 TD's and kept his Int/TD ratio down to less than 40% or below I would consider that a really good year and a "Break out" so to speak from his old self and the start of something better to come. I really David coming on big next year after he's had time to digest the entire offense and isnt thinking thru the progressions on the field, the play call, the formation and alignments and just is able to go out and play. I look for DC to really light it up next year after having a year in the system and with the Coach.

IMO - if David doesnt produce highlight reel personal stat numbers this year in the Regular season, yet the TEAM wins games - I would consider that a good year for us and a success for the team. It will take a bit for all the players to get the offense down well enough to just play.

But if DC is producing like a rookie, a few games into the season, I could certainly see a move being made by Kubes. Bottom line David has to keep on his toes and earn his PT like everyone and I dont Kubes will play favorites when it comes down to Winning ball games.

dito.

Napa Auto Parts
08-23-2006, 04:48 PM
this thread is ridiculous. i take it back its ridiculous that Sage has looked better than David.

JAXwithanX
08-23-2006, 05:36 PM
Carr has the better tools, but anyone would be lying if they honestly could say after watching these pre-season games that Sage doesn't give us a better chance of winning. But thats what next game is for....for Carr to show that isn't the case and he can actually transfer his QB'ing skills to not only this offense, but the NFL. He hasn't played nearly as much, so next game should be a good indicator. But if Carr struggles badly the first half, don't be surprised to have Rosenfels come in earlier, and then have a huge shot at making his last case for QB in our last pre-season game, in which he should play almost all of.

thunderkyss
08-23-2006, 05:40 PM
this thread is ridiculous. i take it back its ridiculous that Sage has looked better than David.

I totally agree..... David's been starting for 4 years, and Sage has been riding the pine for 5... David should look better than Sage...... but he don't. That's ridiculous.

SESupergenius
08-23-2006, 07:15 PM
Did I miss something or did the Carr bashers completely misread(mislead) us into thinking that Kubiak was not happy with Carr's perfomance. After looking at the Kubiaks press conference I came away thinking that Carr actually did ok:

On a positive note, Kubiak was pleased with certain aspects of the offensive game such as quarterback David Carr’s performance, the running game and overall ball protection. Again, Kubiak stressed the importance of fixing those mistakes as a team for Carr to be able to perform well.

“Early in the game David got a few plays that he has to make for our team to give us a chance to get off to a great start,” Kubiak said. “He needs some help to make those plays. There are situations where he’s got to get the ball to a few receivers, we have to protect him a little better and then we have to make those plays when they’re there. I saw the same thing (as last week), but I did see him settle down and play well in the second quarter. He did a good job right before the second half. He did calm down from that standpoint, but we have to get the front-end corrected.”

Jwwillis
08-23-2006, 07:43 PM
Here is a question for all you people who really believe David should sit on the bench this year, and bust the salary cap off the Roof for the next 3 years. Why has Sage not been starting for the Redskins or Dolphins, why has he bounced from team to team, why only 2 starts in his career, Please let me know, the Dolphins QB's since Marino have been nothing special, and here comes Sage, but not 1st string material...Please let me know because we continue to believe Sage is the man on this thread into only 2 pre-season games........

Let me take these one at a time.

"Here is a question for all you people who really believe David should sit on the bench this year, and bust the salary cap off the Roof for the next 3 years."

Who in the heck ever said they wanted Carr riding the bench? And how will trading Carr bust the cap for 3yrs. We would obviously trade him and his salary.

"Why has Sage not been starting for the Redskins or Dolphins, why has he bounced from team to team, why only 2 starts in his career"...."Please let me know because we continue to believe Sage is the man on this thread into only 2 pre-season games"

Why do you give Carr the benefit of the doubt that he will turn his career around under a new coach and system but not Sage?? You count Sages career vs. Carrs 2 pre-season games. I had your blind faith last year.

"but not 1st string material..."

Kubiak said diffrent, does his opinion count?

NO MAS

CaptainPatriot
08-23-2006, 08:08 PM
I don't really care what anyone else saw. I see a scared QB that doesn't grasp the offense. I believe the term coach Kubiak used was "shaky". Sure, he led the team to a TD drive against a 2nd string defense, but this does not impress me.

I know there are a lot of people that get their feelings hurt when someone criticizes Carr, and it's understandable given that he's the face of the franchise. I just hope that the fans stop coddling Carr this year. He is not showing improvement and that's what we need to be judging his performance on in the preseason. And until he starts consistently winning regular season games he will continue to be criticized. It's nothing personal towards his fans or him... it's the business (and fandom) of NFL football.

For Carr to complete a Pass everything has to be perfect! Even then his passes are off the mark. Can’t remember him hitting a WR in stride the last 2 games. I’m sure Carr is a great individual personally but when it comes to NFL QB he just doesn’t have IT. I guess from all the sacks his 1st yr. He just panics now. As for the face of the franchise remember Jim Plunkett. PATS traded him after 5 yrs. (QB Jim Plunkett to San Francisco for QB Tom Owen and the 49ers two first round draft choices (one through Houston) in 1976 and the 49ers first and second round choices in 1977).He even won rookie of the year! This is Carr’s 5th yr it might be good for both Carr and Texans to part ways with a trade. That PATS trade would put the Texans over the top! Let Carr sit the bench for couple yrs. That way he will have no pressure on being the starter and learn his fundamentals again. I think part of Carr’s problem is he never was able to hold a clipboard and watch for a yr. He was just thrown in there.

cuppacoffee
08-23-2006, 08:24 PM
For Carr to complete a Pass everything has to be perfect! Even then his passes are off the mark. Can’t remember him hitting a WR in stride the last 2 games. I’m sure Carr is a great individual personally but when it comes to NFL QB he just doesn’t have IT. I guess from all the sacks his 1st yr. He just panics now. As for the face of the franchise remember Jim Plunkett. PATS traded him after 5 yrs. (QB Jim Plunkett to San Francisco for QB Tom Owen and the 49ers two first round draft choices (one through Houston) in 1976 and the 49ers first and second round choices in 1977).He even won rookie of the year! This is Carr’s 5th yr it might be good for both Carr and Texans to part ways with a trade. That PATS trade would put the Texans over the top! Let Carr sit the bench for couple yrs. That way he will have no pressure on being the starter and learn his fundamentals again. I think part of Carr’s problem is he never was able to hold a clipboard and watch for a yr. He was just thrown in there.

"No, I'm not a coach....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night"...:whoohoo:
CaptainPatriot


:coffee:

Erratic Assassin
08-23-2006, 09:23 PM
450 posts? Hahaha! Someone got everyone's panties in a wad.

powerfuldragon
08-23-2006, 09:53 PM
I totally agree..... David's been starting for 4 years, and Sage has been riding the pine for 5... David should look better than Sage...... but he don't. That's ridiculous.
sage was playing against twos and threes. shh.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-23-2006, 11:24 PM
Let me take these one at a time.

"Here is a question for all you people who really believe David should sit on the bench this year, and bust the salary cap off the Roof for the next 3 years."

Who in the heck ever said they wanted Carr riding the bench? And how will trading Carr bust the cap for 3yrs. We would obviously trade him and his salary.

"Why has Sage not been starting for the Redskins or Dolphins, why has he bounced from team to team, why only 2 starts in his career"...."Please let me know because we continue to believe Sage is the man on this thread into only 2 pre-season games"

Why do you give Carr the benefit of the doubt that he will turn his career around under a new coach and system but not Sage?? You count Sages career vs. Carrs 2 pre-season games. I had your blind faith last year.

"but not 1st string material..."

Kubiak said diffrent, does his opinion count?

NO MAS

You took a long time to write this, did you re-read what you wrote, think about what you just said......:challenge

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-23-2006, 11:33 PM
WONGER BY THE WAY THIS THREAD IS OUT OF CONTROL THANKS TO YOU, HOPE YOU ARE HAPPY......:bananasplit: :bananasplit: :bananasplit:

tsip
08-23-2006, 11:34 PM
sage was playing against twos and threes. shh.

...maybe I'm wrong but didn't David have his 'success' against the Ram's 2nd team in the 2nd qtr?

Nighthawk
08-24-2006, 12:19 AM
Carr has six regular season weeks, maybe eight, to win/earn/keep the starting slot. I figure by that time if he has not solidified his position by performing up to expectations Kubiak is going to start looking at the other guy.

But Carr will get the rest of preseason plus the full 6 weeks to get it done.

Too slow for me, but there it is.

Will he get it done? If he can learn, he might.

infantrycak
08-24-2006, 12:37 AM
Carr has six regular season weeks, maybe eight, to win/earn/keep the starting slot. I figure by that time if he has not solidified his position by performing up to expectations Kubiak is going to start looking at the other guy.

But Carr will get the rest of preseason plus the full 6 weeks to get it done.

Too slow for me, but there it is.

Will he get it done? If he can learn, he might.

I'd actually say that's fair--Carr needs to show definite improvement within the 1st half of the season or Kubiak may/should move on. Shouldn't mean Carr up to pro-bowl level, just showing definite improvement and shouldn't tolerate consistant barely tolerable play.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-24-2006, 12:39 AM
Wonger did you put some energizer batteries in on this thread, it keep's going and going and going, like the pink bunny......this is my last respone on this thread hopefully everyone else will agree unless we are trying to Call Guiness Book of world records on this one for the longest thread.....:rolleyes:

Kaiser Toro
08-24-2006, 12:40 AM
In my opinon the only way Sage gets in is if we are 2-6 by mid season and DC is adding no value. If we are 6-2 and DC stinks he stays in regardless.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-24-2006, 12:43 AM
In my opinon the only way Sage gets in is if we are 2-6 by mid season and DC is adding no value. If we are 6-2 and DC stinks he stays in regardless.


Perfect way to sum it up:goodnight :, great way to end this Wonger thread.......

Roughnecks
08-24-2006, 02:01 AM
I am all about winning more than two games when they count but we all agree the biggest problem with the Texans was the coaches. Last couple of years you could see it on all there faces (players that is) things were not going good behind close doors on the field during pratice, Carr looked lost. Enter Houstons Coach K and Carr looks like a new qb Carr will be fine he has years of bad coaching to crap out of his system and once he notices hey I do not have to run 3 or 4 D-lineman everydown you will see a #1 pick qb as for Sage he reminds me of someone who played for Kubes in Denver oh yea you know how I don't have to say you know him say it, say it no not Elway Greise and you know how that turned out.

The Pencil Neck
08-24-2006, 02:20 AM
...maybe I'm wrong but didn't David have his 'success' against the Ram's 2nd team in the 2nd qtr?

Yes. That's one of the reasons I'm not particularly ecstatic about the Ram win.

bigtex77
08-24-2006, 04:26 AM
I have defended Carr in the past, but at this point it really doesn't matter. Even if he succeeds this season the haters will say that it wasn't David, but the talent and scheme that was put around him that gave him success. Basically he'll never make some happy no matter what he does. Must be a pretty crappy feeling for him.

thunderkyss
08-24-2006, 07:30 AM
sage was playing against twos and threes. shh.

OK....... try to understand..... Sage looked like a man amoung boys against 2s & 3s........ David looked like a boy amoung men against teh 1s & 2s..... you don't agree with that...... that's fine. But when Kubiak says Shakey...... I tend to believe he agrees with the people who are honest about Carr's performance/expectations on this board.

& Don't forget. I'm on your side. I want David to succeed, I don't want Sage to start...... ever. But looking past David's faults, and not expecting him to get better isn't going to make that happen. We've got a coach now, who undertands that..... so say what you will....... but try to see what is happening.

I'd actually say that's fair--Carr needs to show definite improvement within the 1st half of the season or Kubiak may/should move on. Shouldn't mean Carr up to pro-bowl level, just showing definite improvement and shouldn't tolerate consistant barely tolerable play.

Exactly.

I am all about winning more than two games when they count but we all agree the biggest problem with the Texans was the coaches.

Exaclty

I have defended Carr in the past, but at this point it really doesn't matter. Even if he succeeds this season the haters will say that it wasn't David, but the talent and scheme that was put around him that gave him success. Basically he'll never make some happy no matter what he does. Must be a pretty crappy feeling for him.

uhh.... haven't the "homers" been saying his lack of success was due to the "talent & scheme" that surrounded him??

bigtex77
08-24-2006, 07:47 AM
uhh.... haven't the "homers" been saying his lack of success was due to the "talent & scheme" that surrounded him??

Point being that Carr wasn't exactly dropped into a "Roethlisberger" type situation, he did about as well as could be expected given the situation in my opinion. I'm not saying some of the blame shouldn't be put on David's shoulders, I'm simply pointing out my belief that if he is successful this season some will still refuse to give him any credit.

thunderkyss
08-24-2006, 08:52 AM
Point being that Carr wasn't exactly dropped into a "Roethlisberger" type situation, he did about as well as could be expected given the situation in my opinion. I'm not saying some of the blame shouldn't be put on David's shoulders, I'm simply pointing out my belief that if he is successful this season some will still refuse to give him any credit.

My point is if he hasn't been successful because of the talent around him, and the coaching scheme he played in........ then we go and get more talent to put around him, and a new coaching scheme...... & then he becomes successfull, why would it be wrong to say it's because of the talent & scheme?? If nothing else, it would be proven to be because of the talent and the scheme..

If you want anyone to say David is a great talented QB, then he's got to perform avg, or better than avg on a poor team with mediocre at best talent.

Kaiser Toro
08-24-2006, 09:00 AM
Boo-hiss to all those that say Preseason does not matter. We do not have a QB controversy, we just have a controversy on how valuable DC really is to this organization from a functional standpoint.

real
08-24-2006, 09:05 AM
Boo-hiss to all those that say Preseason does not matter. We do not have a QB controversy, we just have a controversy on how valuable DC really is to this organization from a functional standpoint.
Dito.

Honoring Earl 34
08-24-2006, 09:10 AM
Boo-hiss to all those that say Preseason does not matter. We do not have a QB controversy, we just have a controversy on how valuable DC really is to this organization from a functional standpoint.
This statement sums up my point of view . I think Carr reverts back to old habits to quick . I try but his throwing mechanics kill me and because of this I think he can be good but not great . We can get to a Super Bowl with a good QB .

srstex
08-24-2006, 09:29 AM
I think you have to look at the SB winners of late to see that the TEAM, not a person wins. Steeler fans had 13 years between SB apperences, Broncos lost 3 before they won - all with Elway, and Bills fans - well, I'm sorry. The point is, it takes every part of the team to win, and sometimes the zebra's too, and Carr, like EVERY QB before him will not win by himself. Love him, hate him, use Family Man as a bad comment all you want, the TEAM will be a winner when the TEAM gets better. Here a question, who is better P. Manning or T. Brady ?
Just win baby.

:homer:

PS: I believe in my coaching staff, I believe in the decissions of my coaching staff.

threetoedpete
08-24-2006, 12:27 PM
If I heard this right both Sages parent's are dead and he himself has faced a lot of trauma in the past due to his parents and surrounding family. The announcers also said with things like this either one destroys you or two it helps you focus to become better. That way you wont let your family down. In either case I do nota care if DC or SR is our quarterback as long as we win and Eric Moulds does not get mad by switching QB's. :rolleyes:
OK Wonger I get it. Now if only Uncle Bob had hired you or SWT instead of Rick Smith we'd have something. So hang your little banners in the stadium, dog him on road games if you must...but David Carr IS our QB for '06. The only way Sage sees the feild is if DC stinks up the house or...he gets hurt. So you go ahead and root for him to get injured, if you want. My question to the DC bashers is if it aggrovates you this much...why don't you just switch teams and boards ? If you're this unhappy...just move ? Go be Drew Bledsoe fans. The rest of us are willing to give the guy and the coaching staff a chance. What's it gonna hurt. What's one more season ? We're not going to the SB this year are we ? What's it gonna hurt. When you come to a fork in the road take it. Get on or off the band wagon DC bashers.

powerfuldragon
08-24-2006, 12:32 PM
I'm not saying carr wasn't bad. he was. he wasn't terrible, just bad. But, sage just looked more comfortable. david looked like he was paranoid of being hit.

real
08-24-2006, 12:39 PM
OK Wonger I get it. Now if only Uncle Bob had hired you or SWT instead of Rick Smith we'd have something. So hang your little banners in the stadium, dog him on road games if you must...but David Carr IS our QB for '06. The only way Sage sees the feild is if DC stinks up the house or...he gets hurt. So you go ahead and root for him to get injured, if you want. My question to the DC bashers is if it aggrovates you this much...why don't you just switch teams and boards ? If you're this unhappy...just move ? Go be Drew Bledsoe fans. The rest of us are willing to give the guy and the coaching staff a chance. What's it gonna hurt. What's one more season ? We're not going to the SB this year are we ? What's it gonna hurt. When you come to a fork in the road take it. Get on or off the band wagon DC bashers.

So we can't have a problems with certain players ? My question to all that defend Carr with tooth and nail...when did this guy become off limits, and if Carr is ever on another team will you then be a fan of his new team ?

thunderkyss
08-24-2006, 12:43 PM
So we can't have a problems with certain players ? My question to all that defend Carr with tooth and nail...when did this guy become off limits, and if Carr is ever on another team will you then be a fan of his new team ?

No one is ever going to admit Carr is off limits.....

real
08-24-2006, 12:50 PM
No one is ever going to admit Carr is off limits.....

But he is isn't he...Carr will probably go down as the most controversial player in Texans history...

threetoedpete
08-24-2006, 12:52 PM
After two seasnos, and the number of twenty page posts this off season, what more can be said ? Let it play out. I can give grace in the off season. Baseball, people bored to death something to argue about...something to read. But this is boarding on the psychotic, Good greif. What more can be said ? If DC and the teams decision to stick with DC makes you this angry,...find another outlet. Life's too short my freind . How many twenty page threads do we need ? There's been nothing new in two months. What's the point. I'm tired of it. Time to move on. No Mass !!!QQ!!!

real
08-24-2006, 12:57 PM
After two seasnos, and the number of twenty page posts this off season, what more can be said ? Let it play out. I can give grace in the off season. Baseball, people board to death something to argue about...something to read. But this is boarding on the psychotic, Good greif. What more can be said ? If DC and the teams decision to stick with DC makes you this angry,...find another outlet. Life's too short my freind . How many twenty page threads do we need ? There's been nothing new in two months. What's the point. I'm tired of it. Time to move on. No Mass !!!QQ!!!

I feel ya....It has been beaten to death...But the argument will go on even after D.Carr succeeds or fails.....Some people just don't like Carr, and some are just blind Carr homers....but not everybody fits into those two categories...

threetoedpete
08-24-2006, 01:11 PM
well if we've lost him to the sack deamons in his head, we've lost him to the sack deamons in his head. I do not deny that. But NOONE is gonna tell me that DC wasn't an a1 prospect coming out of Fresno St. NOONE. DC didn't fail this orginazation. The Texans failed him. And, further, if it plays out that he dose fail here, my bold prediction is that DC will win a SB one day. We'll see. So If we gotta have more of these twenty pagers...How about who is the next Texans QB ? Which QB is Better Golden Dommer or Schaub ala Favre Atlanta/Green bay. Just had enough of the DC bashing. What's the point ? I'm just worried some of the DC bashers might be packin' ? J/K.:bowser:

thunderkyss
08-24-2006, 01:15 PM
well if we've lost him to the sack deamons in his head, we've lost him to the sack deamons in his head. I do not deny that. But NOONE is gonna tell me that DC wasn't an a1 prospect coming out of Fresno St. NOONE. DC didn't fail this orginazation. The Texans failed him. And, further, if it plays out that he dose fail here, my bold prediction is that DC will win a SB one day. We'll see. So If we gotta have more of these twenty pagers...How about who is the next Texans QB ? Which QB is Better Golden Dommer or Schaub ala Favre Atlanta/Green bay. Just had enough of the DC bashing. What's the point ? I'm just worried some of the DC bashers might be packin' ? J/K.:bowser:

if people with your attitude would stay out of these Carr threads...... they'd be shorter, and I bet less frequent.

threetoedpete
08-24-2006, 01:27 PM
Well this people passed on four of them. What can I say. You see a five hundered pound gorilla in the room, no one else seems to get it, you point it out. It's bordering on the phsycotic is all I know. If DC fails, it's gonna kill me. I do not love DC. But I did love his potential. What a waist. It's gonna break my heart.
It won't be a victory if the DC bashers are dancing gleefully the season. Means a three year plan is now a five year plan. What Texans fan, a true fan, could find joy in that ? I don't mind the arguement. Just seems like a sucky attitude to me. What can I say, get a bunch of acheivers believers, the glass is always half full.
But you have a point. I promise to no longer feed this monster. Book it.

SESupergenius
08-24-2006, 01:30 PM
I feel ya....It has been beaten to death...But the argument will go on even after D.Carr succeeds or fails.....Some people just don't like Carr, and some are just blind Carr homers....but not everybody fits into those two categories...You and Wonger just have some sort of fixation on watching Carr plumet into the turf so that you can say "I told you so" nany nany nany. It's getty old and boring. All that is left is for you to watch the games.

real
08-24-2006, 01:34 PM
You and Wonger just have some sort of fixation on watching Carr plumet into the turf so that you can say "I told you so" nany nany nany. It's getty old and boring. All that is left is for you to watch the games.

:ok: ....get....outta...town...

real
08-24-2006, 01:40 PM
But just to clear it up...I would love it if Carr came out and was a beast so for you to imply that I have some fixation with seeing him fail is foolish...I just think that he is a mediocre sometimes terrible QB...It would be awesome if David was a beast and have a good back-up in Sage...that would make us more complete...If I am wrong about David I'll admit it.....And be happy...

Jwwillis
08-24-2006, 02:31 PM
All you have to do is make a suggestion on what Carr might do better after 4 losing seasons and:

You are a Carr hater/basher
You are a traitor to your team
You are hoping for the worst in Carr
You should find another team to root for
You are a glass half empty fan
You are not giving Carr a chance
You dont trust the coaching

Give me a break.

Hulk75
08-24-2006, 02:36 PM
You guys agree on anything yet?:rolleyes:

infantrycak
08-24-2006, 02:40 PM
All you have to do is make a suggestion on what Carr might do better after 4 losing seasons and:

You are a Carr hater/basher
You are a traitor to your team
You are hoping for the worst in Carr
You should find another team to root for
You are a glass half empty fan
You are not giving Carr a chance
You dont trust the coaching

Give me a break.

I'd say any discussion about what Carr can do better/needs to improve on or reviewing his actual play in a game is exactly the kind of discussion the MB is meant for.

Where I think folks fall off the reservation is in making projections of future performance either pro-bowl status or being replaced during the 1st game, etc. which aren't substantiated by current play or realistic considering the coaching staff's opinion and changes they are instituting.

SESupergenius
08-24-2006, 02:52 PM
All you have to do is make a suggestion on what Carr might do better after 4 losing seasons and:

You are a Carr hater/basher
You are a traitor to your team
You are hoping for the worst in Carr
You should find another team to root for
You are a glass half empty fan
You are not giving Carr a chance
You dont trust the coaching

Give me a break.
no that would be great...if it was only said maybe a couple of times. But it repeated over and over, like trolls

thunderkyss
08-24-2006, 03:09 PM
I'd say any discussion about what Carr can do better/needs to improve on or reviewing his actual play in a game is exactly the kind of discussion the MB is meant for.

Where I think folks fall off the reservation is in making projections of future performance either pro-bowl status or being replaced during the 1st game, etc. which aren't substantiated by current play or realistic considering the coaching staff's opinion and changes they are instituting.


I agree....... & that's you've got all them footballs in the top right corner of your posts.....

What I really find surprising...... is that some of our fans, not a lot..... really want to start Sage over Carr, based on their performance in two preseason games......

I can understand the guys who just want to see Sage with the 1st team.......baby steps...... but for the guys who are ready to relegate(sp) Carr to the bench is mindboggling.......

bigtex77
08-24-2006, 05:19 PM
My point is if he hasn't been successful because of the talent around him, and the coaching scheme he played in........ then we go and get more talent to put around him, and a new coaching scheme...... & then he becomes successfull, why would it be wrong to say it's because of the talent & scheme?? If nothing else, it would be proven to be because of the talent and the scheme..

If you want anyone to say David is a great talented QB, then he's got to perform avg, or better than avg on a poor team with mediocre at best talent.

I'm not saying that it would be wrong, simply stating that David would most likely have to elevate his level of play. It would be a combination of new talent/scheme and Carr playing at a higher level, I just don't think that some would give David any credit at all for the overall improvement. I have a wait and see attitude with David, if he performs well this season, I'm fine, but if he doesn't, we need to go in another direction. I am not one who thinks we should stick with David regardless of how bad things get, if the ship is lost at sea, find another captain.

HOU-TEX
08-24-2006, 05:27 PM
David, David..he's our man...if he can't do it..no one can:piano: :woot: :bouncey:

real
08-24-2006, 05:40 PM
I'm not saying that it would be wrong, simply stating that David would most likely have to elevate his level of play. It would be a combination of new talent/scheme and Carr playing at a higher level, I just don't think that some would give David any credit at all for the overall improvement. I have a wait and see attitude with David, if he performs well this season, I'm fine, but if he doesn't, we need to go in another direction. I am not one who thinks we should stick with David regardless of how bad things get, if the ship is lost at sea, find another captain.

I don't think you are giving people enough credit...Theere aren't too many Morons on the board...People can see if he plays well and we win, just like we can see if he plays poorly and we win...Everbody's not out to get David...Some of us who are dissapointed in his play are actually dissapointed in his PLAY....nothing more nothing less...David needs to play better and that is the only fact...

Napa Auto Parts
08-24-2006, 06:00 PM
i hate some of the threads like this you get punished by the david carr homers wiyth negative for wishing he was a decent QB if im to be known for a carr basher for hoping carr can play up to carson palmer standards so be it i guess i just expect to much from the field general that doesnt seem to improve with 4 full seasons under his belt.

bigtex77
08-24-2006, 06:23 PM
I don't think you are giving people enough credit...Theere aren't too many Morons on the board...People can see if he plays well and we win, just like we can see if he plays poorly and we win...Everbody's not out to get David...Some of us who are dissapointed in his play are actually dissapointed in his PLAY....nothing more nothing less...David needs to play better and that is the only fact...

Understood, I know that most will give credit where credit is due, I just believe that there are some people on this board who would (as hard as it is to believe) love to see the Texans fail just so they can blame Carr because of their personal vendetta against him. I know plenty will disagree, it's just my opinion. Let me also say that just because you (not xtruroyaltyx, but all posters in general) are highly critical of Carr doesn't mean that I believe the first part of this post applies to you. There is a difference between being critical and having a vendetta against someone.

Kaiser Toro
08-24-2006, 06:45 PM
Some of y'all have just gone plumb crazy.

SESupergenius
08-24-2006, 06:57 PM
There is nothing wrong with criticizing David Carr, just as there is nothing wrong with criticizing Mario Williams' less than spectacular play. But the criticizm needs to have some validity and if you are going to do that, then have a good angle on what you are talking about and compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Some of you are comparing Apples to $.20 stamps. I read most of the knee jerk reactions from the beginning of the week and was amazed at some of the people's comments. I didn't read any criticism of Carr's most obvious screw up against the Rams, he completely held the ball when Moulds did a curl route and Carr looked at him and didn't even throw it. That was indecisive, something he needs to work on. Instead we get the trivial SAGE IS OUR MAN thread that doesn't accurately point out Carr's flaws and what circumstances surrounded some of the offensive woes when he was under center, but just that Sage Rosenfels had an ok game against 2nd or 3rd stringers. That is just weak.

thunderkyss
08-24-2006, 08:34 PM
I'm not saying that it would be wrong, simply stating that David would most likely have to elevate his level of play. It would be a combination of new talent/scheme and Carr playing at a higher level, I just don't think that some would give David any credit at all for the overall improvement. I have a wait and see attitude with David, if he performs well this season, I'm fine, but if he doesn't, we need to go in another direction. I am not one who thinks we should stick with David regardless of how bad things get, if the ship is lost at sea, find another captain.


That's really all any of us are asking from David..... to play at a higher level than he has since joined the league....... of course we've got a few extremes........ some that think David has done nothing right..... and those that think he hasn't done anything wrong.

Now I don't believe David will remain the QB regardless of his performance. I do believe Kubiak expects him to struggle over the next 10 weeks or so. He may not even have put a number on it...... but he's got a threshold.. but until he crosses that threshold, David is the starting QB. Regardless if Sage plays better or not. If David never gets it....... which we all should realize is a possibility.... if David never gets it, then we have Sage..... & I believe Kubiak believes Sage & the Texans can be very successful.

Hardcore Texan
08-24-2006, 09:44 PM
I'd say any discussion about what Carr can do better/needs to improve on or reviewing his actual play in a game is exactly the kind of discussion the MB is meant for.

Where I think folks fall off the reservation is in making projections of future performance either pro-bowl status or being replaced during the 1st game, etc. which aren't substantiated by current play or realistic considering the coaching staff's opinion and changes they are instituting.


Hard to argue with that.......good post.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-25-2006, 02:53 AM
500 Post later we are still on the Carr topic talk about beating a dead horse:deadhorse ......What this truely comes down to is that 99.9% of the Carr haters have already given up on Kubiak and staff, already written David off before the season has started.......Failed to listen or read what Kubiak has said about David:listening ........So instead we should all bowdown:bowdown: to Sage who none of you have ever even heard of before he stepped off the plane from Maimi......due to what he has done in 2 pre-season games that mean nothing and I mean nothing.....Maybe Gary and Mike Sherman and Texans staff should read the 500 plus replies to this ongoing thread that wonger started that us fans have spoken and want Sage:survivor: as our QB, get rid of Cody, Quinton, and most importantly David......Truely unreal, if we already have doubts about our Qb before the first ball is even snapped, under the new staff, something is wrong, we are truely not fans......Bob Mcnair should of never even bothered bringing football back to Houston......For the last time give the Coaches and the 53 players that make this team on Sept. 2nd a fair chance before we write them off.....P.S. stop replying to this thread WONGER is on the phone right now with Guiness Book Of World Records, trying to cash in on this thread.......

thunderkyss
08-25-2006, 09:28 AM
I didn't read any criticism of Carr's most obvious screw up against the Rams, he completely held the ball when Moulds did a curl route and Carr looked at him and didn't even throw it. That was indecisive, something he needs to work on. Instead we get the trivial SAGE IS OUR MAN thread that doesn't accurately point out Carr's flaws and what circumstances surrounded some of the offensive woes when he was under center, but just that Sage Rosenfels had an ok game against 2nd or 3rd stringers. That is just weak.

Good point...... and good call..... I re-watched the game last night, and it happened more or less like you said. Actually there were a lot of things he did wrong here, and this is most likely one of the plays that Kubiak says David has got to make.

it was a first & ten, or a second & ten... twin recievers split left....... They looked to be in man coverage...... Moulds' man wa giving him 5 yards. Moulds ran a lazy 5 yard out, and his defender just set up shop 5 yards behind him.

David was watching him the whole time.. he should have thrown the ball just before Eric turned around, but he didn't.

Protection was pretty good. After Moulds turned around, you could see Carr looking at him trying to decide whether or not to throw the ball. As a spectator, watching on the Tele, it looked like David said.... "I'm going to throw it..... I'm not going t... I'm going to .... I'm"

He didn't throw it.... I think it was Flanagan, who was loosing a battle with a DT pushing his way towards Carr...... straight up the middle. Spencer/Wand had a guy pretty much stonewalled two steps up, and to the left of David. I think David should have slid to his right(well first, I think he should have looked around to see if anyone else was open), then run up the gaping hole where the OLine used to be..... instead, he tries to run around Wand/Spencer, and the guy being kept away from him. It was too easy for that guy to lay off Wand/Spencer, turn his hips, and bam...... he's got his hands on David...... David flicks the ball to withing three yards of where Moulds happens to be at this point...

He never looked off Moulds......
He was indecisive.....
He ran into a pressure situation........


Three areas he's got to work on..


We knew this..... shouldn't be a big deal, let's see how it goes....

real
08-25-2006, 09:35 AM
That's really all any of us are asking from David..... to play at a higher level than he has since joined the league....... of course we've got a few extremes........ some that think David has done nothing right..... and those that think he hasn't done anything wrong.

Now I don't believe David will remain the QB regardless of his performance. I do believe Kubiak expects him to struggle over the next 10 weeks or so. He may not even have put a number on it...... but he's got a threshold.. but until he crosses that threshold, David is the starting QB. Regardless if Sage plays better or not. If David never gets it....... which we all should realize is a possibility.... if David never gets it, then we have Sage..... & I believe Kubiak believes Sage & the Texans can be very successful.

IMO, this post^^^^ just about sums it up...

real
08-25-2006, 09:40 AM
And I noticed another play where Carr messed up....On third down when he threw the Ball into the ground in front of A.J....Carr did a bad job of feeling the blitz and making a quick throw...If Carr would have recognized blitz or even been expecting it he could have made a quick throw to AJ who was open...but instead he shot out of the pocket and made a bad throw on the run....I think it's safe to say that we all realize Carr needs to play better, but like tkyss said, don't expect a change so soon...(and on a side note, Kubiak said himself that Sage was blitzed just as much as Carr...take it FWIW)

infantrycak
08-25-2006, 09:45 AM
And I noticed another play where Carr messed up....On third down when he threw the Ball into the ground in front of A.J....

True, and it was a mistake OTOH it is funny IMO that some Sage mistakes are being overlooked as well (not necessarily by you, just generally). Sage tossed a ball in the dirt as well and also almost threw a pick in exactly the same fashion Carr did as well.

(and on a side note, Kubiak said himself that Sage was blitzed just as much as Carr...take it FWIW)

Yes Kubiak did say that but what he didn't say is Sage was pressured just as much as Carr. The blitzes in the 2nd half were picked up better by the OL, Morency and the TE's. Doesn't mean Carr did a good job handling the pressure just that more got to him.

real
08-25-2006, 09:55 AM
True, and it was a mistake OTOH it is funny IMO that some Sage mistakes are being overlooked as well (not necessarily by you, just generally). Sage tossed a ball in the dirt as well and also almost threw a pick in exactly the same fashion Carr did as well.


In all honesty I thought about that last night and I was going to rewatch the game just to look at all Sage's mistakes, because I realized I wasn't really being fair...If I am going to criticize Carr I am going to have to start criticizing Sage....

thunderkyss
08-25-2006, 10:09 AM
In all honesty I thought about that last night and I was going to rewatch the game just to look at all Sage's mistakes, because I realized I wasn't really being fair...If I am going to criticize Carr I am going to have to start criticizing Sage....

Sage having only 2 starts in his 5 year carreer, I beleive, is given more leeway than David Carr and his 4 years starting......

I can kinda see thier point.....

IMHO, with the bad coaching David's had, and the bad QBs Sage has been behind, they should both be looked at as 2nd year players........... ready to start, with a few rough edges. so personally, I expect them both to struggle some. Only Carr is still a BlueChipper, and should be a little more advanced than Sage.

santo
08-25-2006, 10:09 AM
In all honesty I thought about that last night and I was going to rewatch the game just to look at all Sage's mistakes, because I realized I wasn't really being fair...If I am going to criticize Carr I am going to have to start criticizing Sage....


Now there is something I would like to see...

IMO I do like that everyone here brings out what is Carr doing wrong. Makes me see that he needs to improve. But at the same time, it is making Sage look like Joe Montana out there.

I have'nt been able to watch the games, so I can't really critique any of the quaterbacks that we have, so I have to trust some of the people here. I especially like hearing the posts from Infantrycak, TKyss, and several others that try not to bring in their bias when judging Carr.

In all honesty, I would also like to hear what Sage does wrong, because as of right now, he is looking like a Probowler compared to the criticism of Carr.

real
08-25-2006, 10:10 AM
Yes Kubiak did say that but what he didn't say is Sage was pressured just as much as Carr. The blitzes in the 2nd half were picked up better by the OL, Morency and the TE's. Doesn't mean Carr did a good job handling the pressure just that more got to him.

Tis true...and that brings me to another point...I don't know exactly how the Texans pass pro scheme is blocked..although if I look at it closely I could probably figure it out...But anywho, when I played in college our QB was primarily in charge of calling out the blocking schemes on pass plays...

1) The QB has better vision of whats happening as far as defensive players showing blitz
2) he could make a call to slide the line one way or another depending on where he felt like pressure would be heaviest
3) The QB even had a call that told the rb whether he would have to stay in and block, chip a DE and go out for a pass, or just go straight into a route

I don't know if the QB has this much responsibility in Kubiaks offense, but it's the NFL and i dont see why not...My point is that when someone comes free it isn't always a "missed assingment"...When players come free the QB needs to make a "hot read" or he should have made a call so that the RB or OL can recognize ther might be an extra man coming...

Honoring Earl 34
08-25-2006, 10:13 AM
500 Post later we are still on the Carr topic talk about beating a dead horse:deadhorse ......What this truely comes down to is that 99.9% of the Carr haters have already given up on Kubiak and staff, already written David off before the season has started.......Failed to listen or read what Kubiak has said about David:listening ........So instead we should all bowdown:bowdown: to Sage who none of you have ever even heard of before he stepped off the plane from Maimi......due to what he has done in 2 pre-season games that mean nothing and I mean nothing.....Maybe Gary and Mike Sherman and Texans staff should read the 500 plus replies to this ongoing thread that wonger started that us fans have spoken and want Sage:survivor: as our QB, get rid of Cody, Quinton, and most importantly David......Truely unreal, if we already have doubts about our Qb before the first ball is even snapped, under the new staff, something is wrong, we are truely not fans......Bob Mcnair should of never even bothered bringing football back to Houston......For the last time give the Coaches and the 53 players that make this team on Sept. 2nd a fair chance before we write them off.....P.S. stop replying to this thread WONGER is on the phone right now with Guiness Book Of World Records, trying to cash in on this thread.......
Oh I got a headache so I'll cut off my head . Nobody has given up on Kubiak ... I think he's a great coach . He took a scrub backup from the Dolphins and made him into a pretty good QB .

Would everyone please stop calling people Carr haters . I find the posters who are Carr critics to be some pretty sharp football people . They see trends and are objective ( it could be any QB not just Carr ) about the play at QB .

infantrycak
08-25-2006, 10:16 AM
Tis true...and that brings me to another point...I don't know exactly how the Texans pass pro scheme is blocked..although if I look at it closely I could probably figure it out...But anywho, when I played in college our QB was primarily in charge of calling out the blocking schemes on pass plays...

1) The QB has better vision of whats happening as far as defensive players showing blitz
2) he could make a call to slide the line one way or another depending on where he felt like pressure would be heaviest
3) The QB even had a call that told the rb whether he would have to stay in and block, chip a DE and go out for a pass, or just go straight into a route

I don't know if the QB has this much responsibility in Kubiaks offense, but it's the NFL and i dont see why not...My point is that when someone comes free it isn't always a "missed assingment"...When players come free the QB needs to make a "hot read" or he should have made a call so that the RB or OL can recognize ther might be an extra man coming...

Haven't heard about the new regime. We did hear previously that Palmer and Pendry fought each other over the pass blocking schemes and they were being called by the OC. Later there was a report that other teams regarded Pendry's schemes as a joke.

real
08-25-2006, 10:19 AM
Haven't heard about the new regime. We did hear previously that Palmer and Pendry fought each other over the pass blocking schemes and they were being called by the OC. Later there was a report that other teams regarded Pendry's schemes as a joke.

And that is what makes it so hard for us as fans to truly evalutate Carr's play...We don't know their scheme....All we can see are obvious mistakes..(maybe not so obvious to casual fans)...And Obviously the old coaches were bafoons if they called the pass protection and didn't give control of the offense to there QB who was in his fourth year starting...

edo783
08-25-2006, 10:29 AM
Obviously the old coaches were bafoons if they called the pass protection and didn't give control of the offense to there QB who was in his fourth year starting...

This is probably the most likely reason that when Carr took over calling the plays that the offense did so much better. Took the bafoons out of the equation.

jerek
08-25-2006, 10:31 AM
True, and it was a mistake OTOH it is funny IMO that some Sage mistakes are being overlooked as well (not necessarily by you, just generally). Sage tossed a ball in the dirt as well and also almost threw a pick in exactly the same fashion Carr did as well.

Sssh, and repeat after me: "Sage is our man."

thunderkyss
08-25-2006, 11:00 AM
Now there is something I would like to see...

IMO I do like that everyone here brings out what is Carr doing wrong. Makes me see that he needs to improve. But at the same time, it is making Sage look like Joe Montana out there.

I have'nt been able to watch the games, so I can't really critique any of the quaterbacks that we have, so I have to trust some of the people here. I especially like hearing the posts from Infantrycak, TKyss, and several others that try not to bring in their bias when judging Carr.

In all honesty, I would also like to hear what Sage does wrong, because as of right now, he is looking like a Probowler compared to the criticism of Carr.


I hear what you are saying.... & if someone really has nothing better to do, I hope they do go in and break the plays down.... but I think it would be pointless, and a total waste of time.

Simple Version, David looks to be having trouble keeping up with the first team.... Sage looks to be ahead of the second team.....

But things like Morency picking up the blitz, and putting Cook in at fullback is helping Sage out, as well as the fact that there is very little film for anyone to know what Sage's tendancies are...

Also if people will realize David is the starting QB, and Kubiak is approaching the situation as if David was a #1 pick who is just now getting to the point where he needs to be learning on the field, and not on the sideline.

Think about Eli Manning... his first season, he was behind KurtWarner for most of that season....... when they finally got Eli on the field, they realized he's good enough, that they don't have to worry about him loosing the game for them. They knew he was going to struggle for a little while, even into the next season. But Warner wasn't going back into the game. It served no purpose. Warner was then there, in case Eli got them into the playoffs, and got hurt....... he wouldn't botch it up.

Same thing here..... we are going with Carr...... If we are doing well, get into the playoffs, Sage will be able to step in if Carr gets hurt, and he won't botch it up for us. Also, if Kubiak thinks Carr can't cut it, we' won't be desperately looking for another QB.

Runner
08-25-2006, 11:28 AM
Dead as a doornail.

-------------Shakespeare - Henry IV, part 2

Honoring Earl 34
08-25-2006, 11:41 AM
Dead as a doornail.

-------------Shakespeare - Henry IV, part 2
Was'nt William a backup QB for Oxford .

I bet Mario is glad theres a QB debate .

Runner
08-25-2006, 11:45 AM
Was'nt William a backup QB for Oxford .

I bet Mario is glad theres a QB debate .

I was trying to kill the thread with a Shakespeare quote, because the subject has been done to death*. I'm testing a new theory.


Done to death
----------------- Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing

HOU-TEX
08-25-2006, 12:04 PM
I was trying to kill the thread with a Shakespeare quote, because the subject has been done to death*. I'm testing a new theory.


Done to death
----------------- Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing

It wouldn't matter if it did die. Another thread would start it right back up again.:brickwall

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-25-2006, 01:25 PM
Oh I got a headache so I'll cut off my head . Nobody has given up on Kubiak ... I think he's a great coach . He took a scrub backup from the Dolphins and made him into a pretty good QB .

Would everyone please stop calling people Carr haters . I find the posters who are Carr critics to be some pretty sharp football people . They see trends and are objective ( it could be any QB not just Carr ) about the play at QB .

You can not see a trend or objective when you have not given the New staff a chance to work with Carr, that theory is irrelavant, as far as Carr haters that's what they are, if you don't like him find a new team, get Peyton Manning as your next QB, or Tom Brady, for God sake give the system a chance.....you are correct Kubiak has done a great job making Sage a good QB, and by all means if David does not prove himself into the new system this year, it's time for a change.............

Honoring Earl 34
08-25-2006, 01:34 PM
You are missing the point ... the so called Carr haters do not believe Carr will get it . It looked like a duck and it still quacks , so maybe its still a duck . Carr is very good at saying the right things but it has not translated to the field .

I will root for whoever I please .

thunderkyss
08-25-2006, 02:30 PM
You can not see a trend or objective when you have not given the New staff a chance to work with Carr, that theory is irrelavant, as far as Carr haters that's what they are, if you don't like him find a new team, get Peyton Manning as your next QB, or Tom Brady, for God sake give the system a chance.....you are correct Kubiak has done a great job making Sage a good QB, and by all means if David does not prove himself into the new system this year, it's time for a change.............

Which brings up the age old question, why is it ok to hate TJ, Babin, PBuch, Weary, Gafney, Walker, Coleman....... etc... but not David.

Someone critics David's play, or says we need to get rid of him..... eventually we'll get the "Go be a Peyton Fan-boy" response.......

Criticize Domanick, or TJ...... and everybody helps look for trade partners.....

infantrycak
08-25-2006, 05:27 PM
Which brings up the age old question, why is it ok to hate TJ, Babin, PBuch, Weary, Gafney, Walker, Coleman....... etc... but not David.

That's totally overstated. Everyone of those players has proponents. Babin has been lauded by Vinny and Ses for instance. Gaffney is another guy Vinny has pointed out. Walker has received props from myself and others, even Coleman prior to moving to FS. DD has folks who think he is a pro-bowler (pull up the prediction threads) to a slightly below average back.

Folks really need to stop trying to characterize the MB as unanimous or anything close to it on any issue at all--it is all over the map on just about everything.

baba ganoush
08-26-2006, 02:58 PM
Whoever said that carr is losing or gonna lose is job to sage, i dont think they understand the game really well. lets see why...

the person who gave all those statistics on qbs that are getting replaced, doesnt realize all of those qbs are STARS, and pro-bowlers...

heres my point...

Carr is seeing the 1st defense and having success while sage is seeing the 2nd defense...of course sage would have a better pre-season...

not to mention that houston has good talent with thier depth and most other teams dont...

Marcus
08-26-2006, 03:11 PM
No, listen to me.

(Merge this thread.)

Brandon420tx
08-26-2006, 03:18 PM
No, listen to me.

(Merge this thread.)
Forget merging. Shoot it :hunter:

BigDTexansFan
08-26-2006, 03:22 PM
I think we need a moratorium on QB threads what so ever, I don't care to hear people who support Carr, people who support Sage or those few so out of touch with reality they still whining about Vince Young (the one-handed wonder). Lets have the only one with NFL QB experience, off Coordinator experience and now Head Coaching experience put best QB on field

GO GARY GO GARY!!!!!!:redtowel: