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View Full Version : The potential disaster of the RB v. MW debates?


gtexan02
08-18-2006, 03:17 PM
Is anyone else worried that all this Bush is the messiah, and Williams is a bust talk is effecting Williams?

Since the draft, I, and I know everyone else, has heard about 10,000 reports about how great Bush will be and how stupid it was for the Texans to pass on him. I have heard analogies covering every sport, every decision, etc, etc. Heck, I was in the heat of the debate for a long time. I still don't know which decision was the best, and frankly, it will be impossible to EVER know if it was the right decision. Each player would have progressed differently on each team, so no matter what happens, we can never really look back and thing "This was the best decision to make, I'm glad or I'm not glad we made it or didn't make it" If both players are awesome, or if MW is awesome and RB is terrible, we still can't know, because who knows what it would have been like if the other had played in the other stadium?

Anyway, I digress. What I'm most curious about is what people (especially ex or current athletes) think this is doing to the mental aspect of Williams game. If Bush goes out there and rushes 15 times for 35 yards, people gloss over it. If he breaks one long 25 yarder, people glorify him. If Williams on the other hand goes out there and plays a whole game, only to get 4 tackles or something, people jump all over him. If he goes out there and gets 2 sacks, people write it off as what they expected of him. Its a lose-lose situation for this guy.

Could all this pressure be building on him? Every time he gets stood up, is he not thinking about what the media is going to say? Every time he gets pancaked, does it mess with his confidence because he knows the entire country will see it? I've heard there are some coaches who are completely in your face if you make a mistake. Being in Williams shoes must be like having an entire country of those coaches, all jumping on you the second something goes wrong.

I'm actually very concerned for his playing confidence. I've seen what confidence, or the lack thereof, can do to a player. Look at B. Lidge. He has all the tools to be the best closer in the NL, but because of his confidence, has had a 5+ ERA and 1.6 WHIP all year long.

One of the reasons I'm writing this, is that I hope people will cheer him loudly on that first game of the season. I hope people will support the crap out of him everywhere they go. I hope people will stand in line for hours waiting for autographs, if only to give something back to the guy who has had the whole world trying to take it away. If he gets a sack, I want the stadium to erupt.

Vinny
08-18-2006, 03:18 PM
He has had 11 snaps....I think most people are making way too big a deal about this entire situation that will take years to assess. I don't think he is stressed out over it at all.

gtexan02
08-18-2006, 03:21 PM
Thats exactly the point, though. People are already being critical to him after 11 snaps! I don't think you understood the poitn of my post. I was wondering what people think its doing/could do to his game?

I'm not trying to argue that he had a bad game and its all due to media pressure. Heck, I don't follow DL too closely except for fantasy stats, but I wasn't aware that they were supposed to get that many tackles per game in the first place! I thought he had a decent game. But this isn't about that game. It doesn't even matter. I'm trying to question whether or not his talent could in fact be jeopardized by a fear of media scrutiny later in the season

Texan Asylum
08-18-2006, 03:22 PM
I think I'd be MORE determined to kick me some Botox!!! Nothin' like a good Botox Kickin to get the monkey off the old back.

gtexan02
08-18-2006, 03:23 PM
I guess thats true. Some players get fired up from criticism, some players dwindle.

I would guess that TO raises his game, while I am confident that players like Seth Wand and in baseball, players like ARod seem to lose a little of their skills when being criticized

clandestin
08-18-2006, 03:25 PM
Given that he only played a quarter, if Mario Williams HAD gotten a sack last week he'd be on pace to have a 64 sack season! (4X the rookie sack record)

How's that for unreasonable expectations.

gtexan02
08-18-2006, 03:26 PM
Exactly my point. People have unreasonable expectations for him. So whats the deal with this? Can this screw his confidence level up?

Vinny
08-18-2006, 03:26 PM
I don't think most players care what fans think at this point in their careers.

joetexan
08-18-2006, 03:27 PM
I wholeheartedly agree, but I don't necessarily blame the fans who are still questioning the logic. I place a lot of blame on the FO for putting Mario in that position in the first place. They should have taken the effects you mention into consideration. The pressure of being No. 1 overall is strong enough; add being taken ahead of Bush, and it's unbelievable pressure to perform.

Taking him No. 1 overall means he will forever be linked to Bush, fairly or unfairly. If they had traded down, Mario gets a lot less of this attention. If they had taken Bush, Bush takes on what he's expecting, and Mario does the same. They've basically set him up to fail miserably, because exceptional success is his only alternative.

Vinny
08-18-2006, 03:28 PM
I wholeheartedly agree, but I don't necessarily blame the fans who are still questioning the logic. I place a lot of blame on the FO for putting Mario in that position in the first place. They should have taken the effects you mention into consideration. The pressure of being No. 1 overall is strong enough; add being taken ahead of Bush, and it's unbelievable pressure to perform.

Taking him No. 1 overall means he will forever be linked to Bush, fairly or unfairly. If they had traded down, Mario gets a lot less of this attention. If they had taken Bush, Bush takes on what he's expecting, and Mario does the same.
If they trade down he is off the board. I think that argument is assuming way too much. If you want him...you got to take him where you are and not get cute.

MightyTExan
08-18-2006, 03:30 PM
I'm sure he forgets about all the Bush talk on payday...........................

Seņor Stan
08-18-2006, 03:31 PM
I wholeheartedly agree, but I don't necessarily blame the fans who are still questioning the logic. I place a lot of blame on the FO for putting Mario in that position in the first place. They should have taken the effects you mention into consideration. The pressure of being No. 1 overall is strong enough; add being taken ahead of Bush, and it's unbelievable pressure to perform.

Taking him No. 1 overall means he will forever be linked to Bush, fairly or unfairly. If they had traded down, Mario gets a lot less of this attention. If they had taken Bush, Bush takes on what he's expecting, and Mario does the same. They've basically set him up to fail miserably, because exceptional success is his only alternative.

I guess Casserly couldn't find the "trade down" button on his Blackberry.

michaelm
08-18-2006, 03:32 PM
I don't think most players care what fans think at this point in their careers.


plus, I think we have a pretty level headed coaching staff to help guide him through the b.s.

TexansFanatic
08-18-2006, 03:36 PM
I remember when the Houston Rockets drafted Robert Horry with their first pick. Everybody was disgusted. The fans had wanted Harold Miner, the highly-trumpeted player from USC. When Horry's name was announced the crowd went wild with boos. The paper the next day said something about the "Horry-ble" pick.

Last I checked Robert Horry had 6 NBA Championship rings with several different teams. Harold Miner meanwhile has retired into obscurity...

Is bad press and intense pressure going to hurt Mario Williams' chances of success? If so, it will be his fault....

Runner
08-18-2006, 03:47 PM
I don't think most players care what fans think at this point in their careers.

Or at many other points. I know a lot of athletes don't respect sports journalists/commentators opinions much either. The players can see the spin a lot better than we do - they know the real story.

da.texans
08-18-2006, 03:52 PM
He has had 11 snaps....I think most people are making way too big a deal about this entire situation that will take years to assess. I don't think he is stressed out over it at all.

That where you wrong Vinny. YOU forget about he had 11 snaps in 4 different position as a rookie

jerek
08-18-2006, 03:59 PM
Every athlete's different. Some of them seem to take fan negativity harder than others. I think of course every athlete wants to be appreciated and celebrated, but some will be swayed less than others and that will translate to performace (or lack) differently in every individual.

As far as Mario, I've barely met the guy so it'd be pure speculation for me to comment on how it'll affect him. He strikes me as a level-headed kid and a hard worker, though, and just based on what I gather of him from various interviews and reports, I think he'll end up taking a lot of it with a grain of salt. I think if anything it will help to fuel him.

FWIW he seems to be pretty well liked. I've watched after camp as guys like Carr and even Andre Johnson walk off the field relatively unbothered, and the kids/fans are swarming Mario (don't take that as a sweeping statement, it's just what I observed one morning after one of the practices). As someone pointed out, there are tons of Mario jerseys floating around the stadium. Personally I don't buy a guy's jersey (I've bought four in my lifetime) unless I really like the player.

cbnjwill
08-18-2006, 04:12 PM
all he has to do is look at his bank statement to relieve any stress he has

Double Barrel
08-18-2006, 04:13 PM
I guess Casserly couldn't find the "trade down" button on his Blackberry.

That, and...uhhh...THE FACT THAT NOBODY WAS INTERESTED IN TRADING UP FOR BUSH. :hmmm:

He has had 11 snaps....I think most people are making way too big a deal about this entire situation that will take years to assess. I don't think he is stressed out over it at all.

Exactly! Do these "critics" understand/comprehend how long it takes for a DE to realize the position? YEARS! According to Bruce Smith, he didn't feel comfortable in the NFL for several years, and the dude is one of the HoF greats at the position.

This instant gratification society of ours can't see the forest for the trees. But I'm sure they'll be all over buying no. 90 jerseys when Mario is eating QBs for breakfast in the future. :cowboy1:

Texan Asylum
08-18-2006, 04:15 PM
I remember when the Houston Rockets drafted Robert Horry with their first pick. Everybody was disgusted. The fans had wanted Harold Miner, the highly-trumpeted player from USC. When Horry's name was announced the crowd went wild with boos. The paper the next day said something about the "Horry-ble" pick.

Last I checked Robert Horry had 6 NBA Championship rings with several different teams. Harold Miner meanwhile has retired into obscurity...

Is bad press and intense pressure going to hurt Mario Williams' chances of success? If so, it will be his fault....

Not a fan of NBA, but AM a fan of Robert Horry...

GP
08-18-2006, 04:34 PM
It's a logistical nightmare:

A defensive end does not get the attention that a running back, quarterback, or wode receievr gets because of the contrasting nature of the positions.

You have to be the top defensive end, racking up massive stats at your position...and massive highlights, to get mentioend or noticed. Why? Because the sports media wants to show all the neat jukes, catches, and passes that happen on the offensive side of the ball.

It's kind of like giving people a choice between watching fireworks and watching a tug boat push a ship. Our sports culture is growing kids up to have the desire to be the playmaker, "The Man," who hits the homerun to win the game, catches the pass to win the Super Bowl, or hits the three-pointer in overtime.

And that's why ESPN and the other media hate us: We choose to go the "ugly" route and grab a guy who doesn't fit that description. I wanted Bush, but now I think it was because I, too, was blinded by the greed of having the popular guy on our team.

Took me a day-and-a-half to get over it, but when I began to analyze it all...I could see the logic in drafting Mario. Kubiak doesn't need a sensationalized running back to get the job done, so we addressed our defense. Which, when you look at the three teams in our division, I can see why we did. We need to be able to stop the Jags, Colts, and Titans. And the offense's system for our team takes care of itself.

hollywood_texan
08-18-2006, 05:20 PM
Kubiak said it best, this a marathon and not a sprint.

The rookie season between Mario and Reggie will not be the deciding the factor of how is better or who is a bust.

It's interesting, that we have another #1 draft pick on our team, and it seems as though Mario gets more of the pressure to deliver immediately and the other guy just needs more help after 4 years.

thunderkyss
08-18-2006, 05:32 PM
He has had 11 snaps....I think most people are making way too big a deal about this entire situation that will take years to assess. I don't think he is stressed out over it at all.

So you agree, it is still too early to make judgement of Babin, & TJ??

if so, I agree with you.... I don't know how great they are going to be in '06, but I can imagine Mario, TJ, Payne, and Babin being a major force to reckon with for years to come.

veazeyt
08-18-2006, 05:54 PM
In my experience in sports, when you hit the playing field, everything else in life slips away. You become focused on the tasks right in front of you. You take one step at a time and nothing else matters.

The psyche of an athelete is different from at the office mentality. Off-field distractions do not impact or distract players has much as people tend to think. If anything, off field distractions are a reason to get on the field, the environment allows everything else to fall aside.

Mario Williams is an athelete. He is blessed with many gifts that put him into where he is today. I dont think Reggie Bush will have any negative impact on Mario Williams. If anything, it sets a bar for Mario, something to prove. If you walk around with something to prove, you tend to be even more driven.

I do agree that Mario needs to hear Texans support above all else.

Seņor Stan
08-18-2006, 07:00 PM
That, and...uhhh...THE FACT THAT NOBODY WAS INTERESTED IN TRADING UP FOR BUSH. :hmmm:




That was what I was alluding to. Too many people throw down the "shoulda traded down" card. It ain't Madden. You have to have a partner.

Hookem Horns
08-18-2006, 07:14 PM
Most star running backs have great rookie seasons. For some reason the adjustment to the NFL for that position isn't as great as it is for other seasons. DE's on the other hand can take a lot more time to develop their game.

Unless Bush is a complete bust this season, the Texans are going to be hearing it because Mario isn't going to be Reggie White or Lee Roy Selmon in his rookie season.

Vinny
08-18-2006, 07:18 PM
So you agree, it is still too early to make judgement of Babin, & TJ??

I think it is common knowledge that players take a few years to develop and generally do not come into the league as a finished product, never getting better or worse (injury, exposed or whatever). I don't make many absolute assessments of players and just stick with them since players are not always the same player from year to year. Players evolve in the league and you can start to form opinions of players from their first real snap and continue to shift what you think about a player as they evolve. What I think of someone last year may not be what I think of them this year.

Ibar_Harry
08-18-2006, 07:25 PM
I think it is common knowledge that players take a few years to develop and generally do not come into the league as a finished product, never getting better or worse (injury, exposed or whatever). I don't make many absolute assessments of players and just stick with them since players are not always the same player from year to year. Players evolve in the league and you can start to form opinions of players from their first real snap and continue to shift what you think about a player as they evolve. What I think of someone last year may not be what I think of them this year.

I think you can say the same thing about Teams and Coaches as well.

nunusguy
08-18-2006, 07:26 PM
So you agree, it is still too early to make judgement of Babin, & TJ??
if so, I agree with you.... I don't know how great they are going to be in '06, but I can imagine Mario, TJ, Payne, and Babin being a major force to reckon with for years to come.
Latest word is that Kubiak & Co want to try to go with Mario on the weakside.
If that turns out to be a long-term feature of the D, then Babin's days are limited here.
Babin is, afterall, a tweener. He is most fit playing at 250-255. From what I saw of him the other night, he looks real pudgy at near 270. His highest potential in the NFL is most likely as a 3-4 OLB. Teams like the Pats, Steelers, etc. are always looking for players like him. And don't feel sorry for him he's a northern boy who probably misses the 4 seasons climate up there
where he can hunt deer in the snow.
As for TJ, he's a sunbelt boy and a 4-3 guy also, and his likelyhood of getting
entrenched in this new D scheme down here is looking pretty good now that he's finally busting his buns.

threetoedpete
08-18-2006, 08:03 PM
I wholeheartedly agree, but I don't necessarily blame the fans who are still questioning the logic. I place a lot of blame on the FO for putting Mario in that position in the first place. They should have taken the effects you mention into consideration. The pressure of being No. 1 overall is strong enough; add being taken ahead of Bush, and it's unbelievable pressure to perform.

Taking him No. 1 overall means he will forever be linked to Bush, fairly or unfairly. If they had traded down, Mario gets a lot less of this attention. If they had taken Bush, Bush takes on what he's expecting, and Mario does the same. They've basically set him up to fail miserably, because exceptional success is his only alternative.
No one want to trade. RB wasn't worth 3000 points. Neither was VY. No one wanted the #1. No one.

Double Barrel
08-18-2006, 08:52 PM
That was what I was alluding to. Too many people throw down the "shoulda traded down" card. It ain't Madden. You have to have a partner.

yep. I agree 100%. People always have 20/20 hindsight, and playing shoulda/coulda/woulda is an easy game.

Personally, I see things from the glass half full perspective. We can't change what is, so why waste that energy living in the past?

Jwwillis
08-18-2006, 09:01 PM
Remember the Harrington vs. Carr debate after the Texans selected Carr 1st round? Funny, none of the "Harrington is much better and the Texans blew it" posters are around anymore. Even though Harrington went to an established franchise (with 2-3 deep O-Lineman) he never panned out for the Lions and they cut him. He is now a back up in Miami. This doesn't mean Carris better than Harrington. It means the Lions were not willing to wait for Harrington to develope while the Texans have taken a more patient approach.

"In the 2002 draft, the first two quarterbacks selected were David Carr and Joey Harrington.

Carr is starting his fifth season with the Texans. The Lions gave up on Harrington and traded him to Miami, where he backs up Daunte Culpepper."

The same will hold true with the Bush/Young/Williams saga. If Bush goes lame from injury or is stuffed due to poor blocking it does not mean the MW pick was better. Perhaps if Bush had been drafted by a team playing on natural grass or a team with a pro-bowl o-line everything would be different. Young may suffer as a starting Rookie in Buds world if he doesn't produce right away.

McNair didn't take over full time till his 3rd yr.

"1997: In his first full season as a starter, helped the Titans set franchise mark for fewest interceptions in a single season (13) while leading the team in rushing TDs (eight) and ranking second in rushing yards with 674, the third most in NFL history by QB at the time. His 6.7 yards-per-carry average led all NFL rushers.

1996: Started four games for Oilers. Recorded first 300-yard performance (308 yards) vs. Jacksonville (12/8/96).

1995: Saw his first NFL action on the Oilers' last two series of the fourth quarter at Cleveland (11/5/95) after beginning the game as a dressed-third QB. Saw first significant action of the season versus the Lions (12/10/95), replacing Chris Chandler (mononucleosis) at the start of the second half. First completion was a five-yarder to WR Haywood Jeffries, while first TD pass was a 39-yard strike to Sanders. Made his first NFL start versus the Jets (12/17/95), connecting on 13-of-27 for 198 yards and one TD (Jeffires)."

Some owners are impatient, chasing the attendance dollar. The reason the Lions/Oilers/Saints have sucked for so long is ownership. Has to be, since in the long term ownership is the only consistant. Bud was disliked in Houston because he fired everyone every 1-3 yrs, he was nicknamed "Bottom line Bud". With new managment comes optimism and increased revenue. However, it is short lived if they don't win. Problem is they won't win till they gain consistancy. Unless you draft an Earl Campbell. Bush aint no Earl.

Texans/Saints/Titans

Of these 3 teams which has the best Ownership/MGT and allows the best opportunity for success?

blockhead83
08-18-2006, 10:52 PM
I think it's a fair question, being the #1 pick comes with alot of strings attached to the media and Mario is probably very aware of that by now. Never mind that he and his friends probably see ESPN every now and then; the media make it their business to tell Mario if Bush has done something great and ask him how he feels about it. I've gotten the impression over a multitude of Mario's interviews that he understands that he will always be tied to RB, but he's not going to worry about it, he's just going to work his hardest to be the best he can for this team. He also hasn't been shy about letting you know that he thinks he will perform to the level of a #1 pick. So, I can't imagine that Mario isn't feeling pressure. He went from being relatively unknown nationally to being rich and gaining a modest amount of time in the spotlight on TV and in the news. Mario is feeling more pressure than he ever has before on the football field, and he's feeling more pressure than the average rookie. The question is how is he going to handle that pressure. I honestly think that it won't affect him. The people from the Texans who spoke with him must've come away feeling that he can handle the pressure or else they probably wouldn't have drafted him. So, until we get to see him in some real action, let's not jump to any conclusions.

BigDTexansFan
08-19-2006, 08:55 AM
Exactly my point. People have unreasonable expectations for him. So whats the deal with this? Can this screw his confidence level up?

Mario has said he doesn't watch the news, read the paper or listen to radio So I don't think he even knows. Besides comparing a RB to a DE is apples and oranges, it would be like comparing you running at top speed with a top fuel dragster....hardly a comparison.

If we want to compare him to anybody lets wait until end of his 1st season and go back and look at Bruce Smith season 1, or any other DE considering to be best in NFL history. Then we can say WOW he is good, he did better than <name of player>.

As to 4th quarter Reggie I think you will see what you saw in preseason game against Titans, average stats with one amazing run that ESPN and every other sports programs runs until you think Superman is running there. Reggie will be a lot of smoke and little substance, he will not play every down and often in 4th quarter when team needs him he will be on sidelines (see Rose Bowl).

IF New Orleans tries to make him an every down back, I see him injured or even out by halfway point of season too tired to run. BUT that said I think they are going to a multi-back set with Deuce and Reggie swapping out, so he might last a season or two if no one rolls up on him when his blockers throw someone down to keep him running.:chicken:

TexansJunkE
08-19-2006, 10:23 AM
Reggie Bush who?
It's only an issue if you make it an Issue on this board. I believe everyone on this board has put there :twocents: on the situation. Nothing else needs to be said on this issue at least through preseason!
For the sake of my sanity it was the Titans defense. DD and the rest of the RB's in the league have done this to the Titans. :tease: