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View Full Version : the truth about preseason game 1


utahmark
08-15-2006, 12:04 AM
alright ive heard to many conflicting reports about how our players played in game one. so i had to see for myself. i had some time tonight and i had the game recorded so here goes.

there were 3 players inparticular that i have read conflicting reports on.

carr is first. in no way can you tell much about a guy in 5 throws but i thought 4 out of 5 were good balls. the one of the 4 that was incomplete was a good pass although maybe he could have looked of the defender. hard to tell but it looked like he eyed johnson the whole way.

on the completion that tillman cominted on he was wrong. aj was not open until after the throw. aj was covered by the corner and might of had help over the top as well.

there was one bad pass that im not sure could of been completed even if it was thrown better. there were alot of guys around that one.

second is mario. sorry guys but he was not double teamed all night. i found it kinda odd that they would game plan for a rookie in a preseason game. and i was right. mario had 2 guys on him twice and that was just cause he happened to go to the wrong spot not because they were concentrating on him. he didnt do much of anything and he was single covered. but again it was one preseason game with very limited action. and it usually take de a while to adjust to the nfl.

last is pitts. i like pitts and hope that he finally stays put. but i cant really get a good feel for how he is doing because you have so many conflicting posts about how he is playing. he played very well in the first couple of possesions that i saw.

im not a guru like some of these guys but everyonce in awhile its hard to tell what is really going on. so you have to watch for yourself.

i guess there isnt away to edit my thread topic?

cj5776
08-15-2006, 12:50 AM
Double teamed or not, Mario got peneration. He needs to mix a little finence in with his power game. Not use just the bull rush. I still give him a solid B, becuase the raw power is there.

Invidually certain linemen might have only played OK, but as a line I think they getting close to having the type of results Kubes excepts from them.

LB and RB are still the biggest question marks. Ryan and Lundy will have a huge impact this season. Even though it is asking a lot from them, their leadership and the production from their overal units will determine whether or not this is a playoff team.

TANSTAAFL
08-15-2006, 12:42 PM
I didn't see the game, so i can't judge what was really happpening. From the description though, he was moved to multiple positions along the line. I would expect this to add to the learning/performance curve. It's not like he was set on the corner and allowed to t-off. If I remember correctly, Peppers had the exact same performance his first preseason game. No worries, lots of vanilla all over the place with small windows of playing time to evaluate.

Don't let the pundits' spouting distract you. Sure Bush did fine, but it was on a broken play where the defense totally blew back end containment. Not what I would call a play that's exclusive to Bush.

jdog
08-15-2006, 12:54 PM
]']Mario was doubled, he has alot of work to do, but you can see potential already . We were getting pressure with our front 4.


We are better now, compared to last year.

The play where Green chunked the ball to the back of Hall's feet was probably a great example of the pressure we CAN get on the quarterback. It looked like we blitzed a safety on the QB's blind side from what I could see. I watched the Chiefs coverage due to my location. I do not know if you guys had different angles on this play or not. It was obvious from seeing the throw that there was some good pressure on Green on that play though. All of the other first team passing plays that I saw for KC were pretty quick passes that did not allow much time for our defense to get to the QB. We seemed to have decent pressure from the front four, but I saw one picture of Williams one on one with their right tackle and Williams looked like he was stood up and lost the leverage battle. I think they had Gonzalez helping block Williams on some plays too. Williams will be good. It was his first NFL action, and I think I am going to give him a break. Especially since it is preseason and he is working hard to learn.

kcwilson
08-15-2006, 01:07 PM
Two series of preseason football does not a career make. Mario will be fine given his above average athleticism. Come the fourth quarter of most games, I bet he will learn to use his speed and strength to make significant impact on the pocket and run against a game-weary OL.

Likewise, I am excited that Wali Lundy had a good game, but all of a sudden the entire message boards is almost accepting him as the second coming of Christ.

I think the blocking went well, Lundy had a good run, good vision and will be a contributor. I hope he is as good as everyone is now starting to forecast. Remember, I think we showed the league a lot of what to expect from our offense and defensive gameplanning might overshadow some of those successful plays, i.e. bootlegs. More containment on the rush from the outside could easily open up between the tackle running lanes and Antowain could be a more effective runner, than Lundy. You just won't know week to week as gameplans for specifics offensive strategies unfold.

With regard to Carr, I watched his series on tivo a few times and if you look from the end zone camera angle, the pass to AJ, where the LB makes a good defensive tip, Carr's helmet angle is locked on AJ almost the whole route. Not sure where his eyes are darting to, but it would appear that he locked on.

In one of the next two/three games, AJ needs a big ball catch to get him going. I don't want to see him go catchless or one or two catches in the pre-season. Something needs to wake that monster up... he needs the ball and needs to start showing that he is the threat on this team. He needs to establish that he can stretch the field consistently.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 01:17 PM
I didn't see the game, so i can't judge what was really happpening. From the description though, he was moved to multiple positions along the line. I would expect this to add to the learning/performance curve. It's not like he was set on the corner and allowed to t-off. If I remember correctly, Peppers had the exact same performance his first preseason game. No worries, lots of vanilla all over the place with small windows of playing time to evaluate.

Don't let the pundits' spouting distract you. Sure Bush did fine, but it was on a broken play where the defense totally blew back end containment. Not what I would call a play that's exclusive to Bush.

I'm not a Reggie Bush fan, so don't take this out of context.......

But they didn't "totally" blow back end containment.... There was a guy there, Reggie was just faster, and beat him to the corner...... I don't know who that guy was halfway decent, he would have picked a better pursuit angle, and head Reggie off.... but...... he may have also misjudged Reggie's speed as well.

jerek
08-15-2006, 01:19 PM
In one of the next two/three games, AJ needs a big ball catch to get him going. I don't want to see him go catchless or one or two catches in the pre-season. Something needs to wake that monster up... he needs the ball and needs to start showing that he is the threat on this team. He needs to establish that he can stretch the field consistently.

Agree, and hopefully Carr's hitting Moulds a couple times will open that up for AJ. IMO though AJ will always draw the most attention and teams will be content to let the other players beat them.

I would like to see AJ used more whenever he's 1 on 1. Carr just isn't confident enough at this point to gun him whenever he draws 1 on 1 coverage, but AJ is big enough and strong enough to beat most any coverage with a sufficiently well placed ball. It doesn't have to be a spot on throw; he can fight and position himself most of the time and come up with the catch.

jerek
08-15-2006, 01:23 PM
I'm not a Reggie Bush fan, so don't take this out of context.......

But they didn't "totally" blow back end containment.... There was a guy there, Reggie was just faster, and beat him to the corner...... I don't know who that guy was halfway decent, he would have picked a better pursuit angle, and head Reggie off.... but...... he may have also misjudged Reggie's speed as well.

There were several defenders that overpursued on that play IIRC. I'm not dogging Bush nor his NFL potential but that's not much of a proving ground and it certainly didn't merit the subsequent 24/7 ESPN news flash coverage. He did well enough and I look forward to seeing him receive more carries. As always though, many people resort to descriptive extremes and avoid the simple but less exciting realism of the middle ground.

Oh, and honestly, watching our tape reminded me why Kubiak passed on him. Our running system appears plenty successful with a bunch of late-round/undrafted guys; how will it look once they improve, or Davis returns? Kubiak's entire running system is predicated on quickly finding the hole, making one cut, and taking it. That is 100% contrary to Reggie Bush's style; it's not really to say that Reggie's style is necessarily inferior, only to say that he is definitely not Kubiak's prototypical back.

texan279
08-15-2006, 01:27 PM
There were several defenders that overpursued on that play IIRC. Either way, I believe he notched that run against the second team Titans D. I'm not dogging Bush nor his NFL potential but that's not much of a proving ground and it certainly didn't merit the subsequent 24/7 ESPN news flash coverage. He did well enough and I look forward to seeing him receive more carries. As always though, many people resort to descriptive extremes and avoid the simple but less exciting realism of the middle ground.

Oh, and honestly, watching our tape reminded me why Kubiak passed on him. Our running system appears plenty successful with a bunch of late-round/undrafted guys; how will it look once they improve, or Davis returns? Kubiak's entire running system is predicated on quickly finding the hole, making one cut, and taking it. That is 100% contrary to Reggie Bush's style; it's not really to say that Reggie's style is necessarily inferior, only to say that he is definitely not Kubiak's prototypical back.

If I remember correctly, Lundy put up about the same stats as Bush except Lundy scored and Bush didn't, and Lundy played against KC's 1st team defense.

Seņor Stan
08-15-2006, 01:32 PM
Agree, and hopefully Carr's hitting Moulds a couple times will open that up for AJ. IMO though AJ will always draw the most attention and teams will be content to let the other players beat them.

I would like to see AJ used more whenever he's 1 on 1. Carr just isn't confident enough at this point to gun him whenever he draws 1 on 1 coverage, but AJ is big enough and strong enough to beat most any coverage with a sufficiently well placed ball. It doesn't have to be a spot on throw; he can fight and position himself most of the time and come up with the catch.

...and, if the ball is really thrown, he can break up the INT pretty well.

See: City, Kansas.

jerek
08-15-2006, 01:33 PM
If I remember correctly, Lundy put up about the same stats as Bush except Lundy scored and Bush didn't, and Lundy played against KC's 1st team defense.

RB: 59 yards on 6 carries, 9.8 YPC
WL: 59 yards on 9 carries, 6.6 YPC, 1 TD

I can't friggin find it anywhere on the internet: did Bush start and play against the Titans' first team D, or was he in later?

texan279
08-15-2006, 01:43 PM
RB: 59 yards on 6 carries, 9.8 YPC
WL: 59 yards on 9 carries, 6.6 YPC, 1 TD

I can't friggin find it anywhere on the internet: did Bush start and play against the Titans' first team D, or was he in later?

I checked the NFL.com play play and it shows Bush did not get his first touch until there was 4:46 left in the 1st quarter amd his last carry was with 9:52 left in the 2nd quarter, and from what I saw as far as who tackled him (Thornton, Haynesworth, Vanden Bosch) it looks like he played against the 1st team defense.

real
08-15-2006, 01:47 PM
I checked the NFL.com play play and it shows Bush did not get his first touch until there was 4:46 left in the 1st quarter amd his last carry was with 9:52 left in the 2nd quarter, and from what I saw as far as who tackled him (Thornton, Haynesworth, Vanden Bosch) it looks like he played against the 1st team defense.

Bush was the starter...I watched the Game...many times....

bigTEXan8
08-15-2006, 01:58 PM
As I heard it, Mario only played a total of 11 plays, some of which he was placed at DT. The highlights I saw of him, he was creating pressure. And if I am correct, pressue isn't a recorded individual stat. Williams will be fine in the long run, which is what's best for the team. Bush will be exciting to watch. This will be the only intentional reason I watch the Saints all year. One other thing...Bush was playing the Titans. They aren't exactly known for their stout D. (Although Bullock got me a lot of points in fantasy last year). And Bush isn't always going to be able to do that. He's going to get tatooed on of these days, and I don't think he'll be the same after. JMO.

Double Barrel
08-15-2006, 02:24 PM
Oh, and honestly, watching our tape reminded me why Kubiak passed on him. Our running system appears plenty successful with a bunch of late-round/undrafted guys; how will it look once they improve, or Davis returns? Kubiak's entire running system is predicated on quickly finding the hole, making one cut, and taking it. That is 100% contrary to Reggie Bush's style; it's not really to say that Reggie's style is necessarily inferior, only to say that he is definitely not Kubiak's prototypical back.

This is a really good point, man. And it makes me wonder how 'coachable' Reggie Bush would have been under Kubiak's system. A "superstar" is less inclined to change his basic running style, and he wants to make things happen on his own. But take a back in the later rounds, and not only does he appreciate the chance he's been given, but he's more inclined to do what needs to be done, including learning new styles and implementing them accordingly.

Just my opinion, but I have doubts if Bush would have gladly accepted the one-cut philosophy that is required under Kubiak's offense.

jerek
08-15-2006, 02:46 PM
Just my opinion, but I have doubts if Bush would have gladly accepted the one-cut philosophy that is required under Kubiak's offense.

I doubt it. I'll take our undrafted efficiency over highlight reel speed ($50M highlight reel speed, at that) any day, any time. Again, that's not a knock against Reggie and it's just my personal preference. It's the reason I like the San Antonio Spurs over the Phoenix Suns, getting layups to jump shooting, and the Pittsburgh Steelers against the Indianapolis Colts. I prefer winning and fundamentals to pure athleticism and flash; it's not to say that they're mutually exclusive, only that, well, yes ... they tend to be mutually exclusive.

So far (admittedly with very limited real game observation) I like Lundy and Taylor. Both appear to be hard workers with emphasis on coachability and fundamentals. Lundy looks very comfortable in our scheme thus far and I think Taylor is coming along nicely.

I think Kubiak probably would have taken Bush any way had Williams not been there, but I agreed with the decision then and I agree with it even moreso now.

texan279
08-15-2006, 02:53 PM
I am not knocking Bush either, but if we had drafted him, everytime he took off at full speed towards the line, I would be worried about a LB coming up and knocking the snot out of him. Maybe I am wrong, maybe his speed and elusiveness will work in the NFL, I would just be worried about him getting slammed. Not only that, but when the NFL told him he coudln't wear his golden cleats and he prances out there with his golden cleats, that would just rub me wrong if he played for us. It might be no big deal, but why would you do something the NFL tells you not to do? And I hear Adidas is paying the fine that the NFL handed down. I guess it's all about the money, especially when the companies you endorse will put up cash when you knowingly do something you were told not to do.

nunusguy
08-15-2006, 02:54 PM
second is mario. sorry guys but he was not double teamed all night. i found it kinda odd that they would game plan for a rookie in a preseason game. and i was right. mario had 2 guys on him twice and that was just cause he happened to go to the wrong spot not because they were concentrating on him. he didnt do much of anything and he was single covered. but again it was one preseason game with very limited action. and it usually take de a while to adjust to the nfl.

MarkBeth, that's the most honest assessment made of Mario's performance I've heard from anyone.
The people who didn't like the pick in the first place are putting down his performace in no uncertain terms, the other side is making excuses. But I think those making the excuses are also feeling a little discomfort.
And I just saw in the Chron where Mario may take more snaps at DT while Weaver may get some snaps on the outside. What's that about ? Kubiak and crew had Mario on the inside in some situations so that both Babin and Peek could be in game together. But now we are hearing that Weaver and Mario may be trading places in some scenarios ?
I'm comfortable with Kubiak passing on Bush, but at this point I've got a ways to go before I'm comfortable with the alternative choice they made.
But Saturday night was only about 10 snaps as I recall ? Hardly enough to reach an informed opinion about Marios prospects in the NFL. But enough to maybe give a Texan fan as much anxiety as anticipation about Saturdays game in St. Louis.

texan279
08-15-2006, 02:59 PM
MarkBeth, that's the most honest assessment made of Mario's performance I've heard from anyone.
The people who didn't like the pick in the first place are putting down his performace in no uncertain terms, the other side is making excuses. But I think those making the excuses are also feeling a little discomfort.
And I just saw in the Chron where Mario may take more snaps at DT while Weaver may get some snaps on the outside. What's that about ? Kubiak and crew had Mario on the inside in some situations so that both Babin and Peek could be in game together. But now we are hearing that Weaver and Mario may be trading places in some scenarios ?
I'm comfortable with Kubiak passing on Bush, but at this point I've got a ways to go before I'm comfortable with the alternative choice they made.
But Saturday night was only about 10 snaps as I recall ? Hardly enough to reach an informed opinion about Marios prospects in the NFL. But enough to maybe give a Texan fan as much anxiety as anticipation about Saturdays game in St. Louis.

Only reason I could think of putting Mario at DT is because of his speed and strength possibly help him bust through the middle to get into the backfield or maybe if he is in the middle taking double teams some of the time it could open it up for the DE's and LB's. I dunno...

cj5776
08-15-2006, 03:11 PM
I liked the pick and have no discomfort wit his performance. The peneration was deffantly something to build on. He provided proof that he is a strong conerstone of this rebuilt defense.

Preseason is the time to find the right combinations. I am gald they are trtying to see what works best... Weaver outside while Mario is inside or whatever esle might work.

nunusguy
08-15-2006, 03:21 PM
Only reason I could think of putting Mario at DT is because of his speed and strength possibly help him bust through the middle to get into the backfield or maybe if he is in the middle taking double teams some of the time it could open it up for the DE's and LB's. I dunno...
The primary argument the Texans have advanced for taking Mario over Bush is that an outstanding pass-rushing DE trumps an outstanding running back. And premier pass rushers play on the edge, not on the inside at tackle except possibly in limited circumstances. So moving him to the inside to improve his pass rushing opportunities just doesn't add up.

cj5776
08-15-2006, 03:32 PM
I agree with your "limited situations" desprition, but now in the preseason that has to be prefected. Mario is more than a premier pass rushing end, if so he would not have gone #1. Mario is a complete end so he will be used inside and out.

texan279
08-15-2006, 03:33 PM
The primary argument the Texans have advanced for taking Mario over Bush is that an outstanding pass-rushing DE trumps an outstanding running back. And premier pass rushers play on the edge, not on the inside at tackle except possibly in limited circumstances. So moving him to the inside to improve his pass rushing opportunities just doesn't add up.

There was mention of Mario moving inside on obvious passing downs after we drafted him. Also mention of him playing several spots on the line. I was talking about Mario helping the defense at DT more against the run than the pass, his speed, size, and athleticism could allow him to bust through the middle of the line and into the backfield instead of coming off the corner. I could have sworn Kubiak was talking about moving him to DT in passing situations though after we drafted him. These are just my thoughts on it, I am probably totally wrong in my thinking, and I would rather see him at the DE spot 90-100% of the time.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 05:54 PM
If I remember correctly, Lundy put up about the same stats as Bush except Lundy scored and Bush didn't, and Lundy played against KC's 1st team defense.


& KC was missing 20 starters.... & had a new coach.....

Only reason I could think of putting Mario at DT is because of his speed and strength possibly help him bust through the middle to get into the backfield or maybe if he is in the middle taking double teams some of the time it could open it up for the DE's and LB's. I dunno...

I don't have a problem with putting Mario in at DT....... Kubes has been saying since Draftday, that was part of the plan. But moving Weaver outside.... was there something he didn't like with Babin & Peek?? I thought they did really well when they were both out there on the ends.

GP
08-15-2006, 06:17 PM
There was mention of Mario moving inside on obvious passing downs after we drafted him. Also mention of him playing several spots on the line. I was talking about Mario helping the defense at DT more against the run than the pass, his speed, size, and athleticism could allow him to bust through the middle of the line and into the backfield instead of coming off the corner. I could have sworn Kubiak was talking about moving him to DT in passing situations though after we drafted him. These are just my thoughts on it, I am probably totally wrong in my thinking, and I would rather see him at the DE spot 90-100% of the time.

Yeah, perhaps Kubiak is thinking Mario is talented enough to dominate wherever he is placed on the line.

Well, I for one would like to see him put on the end like Freeney where he can collapse the pocket...so by the time he's squeezing the QB further in toward the center (due to him flying around the end toward the QB) then our other guys will be maneuvering enough to get the sack if the QB tries to flee Mario by moving up into the pocket. A QB moving up in the pocket is getting closer to defenders, making it easier for us to sack him or pressure him.

I don't like the idea of putting him closer to the middle or even close to two offensive linemen. I like utilizing his power AND speed to get around fat guys and wreak havoc. That's where I see Mario winning the battle: On the end.

That's just my observation though.

Come on, Kubiak: Put the guy on the far end and let him build up some steam when he gets off the line at the snap!

Maddict5
08-15-2006, 08:21 PM
& KC was missing 20 starters.... & had a new coach.....


ok that myth has to stop..they had a few injured players but just looking at the gamebook and my limited knowledges of kc's probable starters there were plenty starters....green,lj,kennison,gonzalez,wiegmann, shields/waters(1 was missing), turley, allen,dj, bell, cawika mitchell, surtain, law,knight, wesley all played..that to my count is at least 15 starters with a probable extra 4 to 5 depending on formation etc and we have a new coach also so i dont even know what that is supposed to signify?????????

Chris Taylor MVP
08-15-2006, 09:06 PM
Given the proper chance Chris Taylor would out run, out work, out think, out smart, over power and is a much better person than Reggie Bush! Though I really don't know how great a person Reggie truly is, I Do know Chris Taylor is a better athlete and a great person professionally and socially. I must also add Wali Lundy is a good running back. But through it all, over the long haul, I'll take Chris Taylor over any player in the NFL for the above-named reasons.

I doubt it. I'll take our undrafted efficiency over highlight reel speed ($50M highlight reel speed, at that) any day, any time. Again, that's not a knock against Reggie and it's just my personal preference. It's the reason I like the San Antonio Spurs over the Phoenix Suns, getting layups to jump shooting, and the Pittsburgh Steelers against the Indianapolis Colts. I prefer winning and fundamentals to pure athleticism and flash; it's not to say that they're mutually exclusive, only that, well, yes ... they tend to be mutually exclusive.

So far (admittedly with very limited real game observation) I like Lundy and Taylor. Both appear to be hard workers with emphasis on coachability and fundamentals. Lundy looks very comfortable in our scheme thus far and I think Taylor is coming along nicely.

I think Kubiak probably would have taken Bush any way had Williams not been there, but I agreed with the decision then and I agree with it even moreso now.

DocBar
08-15-2006, 09:59 PM
The primary argument the Texans have advanced for taking Mario over Bush is that an outstanding pass-rushing DE trumps an outstanding running back. And premier pass rushers play on the edge, not on the inside at tackle except possibly in limited circumstances. So moving him to the inside to improve his pass rushing opportunities just doesn't add up.
Cortez Kennedy, Sapp, Adams, Gilbert, Perry, Fuller, White and a few others might disagree with that. Lot's of NFL DT's are premier pass rushers. They just don't get as much glory. Kinda like RT's and LT's on the O-line. If swapping Mario and Weaver give the Texans the best combo and results, then it SHOULD add up perfectly. At least IMO.