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View Full Version : Questions I have. Anybody have the answers?


GP
08-13-2006, 06:52 PM
OK, forgive me if these are boneheaded questions. But I was wondering...

Did Eric Winston play? If so, how did he do? I cannot recall seeing him or hearing his name called. Of course, it was the Chiefs' broadcast team and they hardly mentioned our players in the second half.

Did it seem that we were moving our defensive linemen all around the line, a lot? I noticed Mario moving further inside the line on a few plays. Is it just an in-game playcalling maneuver that Kubiak uses and they mix it up on-the-fly as to who plays wher on each play, or is there a set rotation where you know if you see Mario on the end then you got x-player at guard and y-player at tackle or if Mario slides into the tackle spot then you know where other linemen are at, etc.? I had a hard time keeping up with who was at each position all game long.

Wong didn't specifically mention when he might be back, he just said that it's looking better every day blah-blah-blah. Does anyone know the most recent timeframe for his return?

How many roster spots does Denver typically utilize for running backs? Just wondering if we can gauge how many Kubiak will carry this season.

Lucky
08-13-2006, 07:55 PM
Winston played most of (if not all) the 2nd half at RT. I thought he did well, as the entire line did. Bigs ups to the O-line!

Mario played strong side end (where the TE lined up) on the base defense, and LDT in the nickel. I think Mario would have played better just staying at LDE. But this is about getting better, not how well you play in the preseason.

I had heard Wong was trying to get back by the opener. That may be overly optimisic.

Denver kept 4 RBs and 2 FBs last season. I don't know if that is typical or not. If I were to guess, I'd say Davis, Morency, Smith, and Lundy are in. Taylor on the practice squad. Cook the fullback, with one of the TEs backing up Cook.

edo783
08-13-2006, 09:09 PM
I had heard Wong was trying to get back by the opener. That may be overly optimisic.

When they interviewed him on the sidelines he danced on the head of the pin about when he would be back. I doubt he thinks he will be back at the start of the season. I suspect he would have said that he was expecting to, if he really was. IMO, I would not be very surprised to see both he and DD puped/IR at the start of the season and then not be available until I think it's the 6th week of the season or something by the rule.

michaelm
08-14-2006, 12:59 AM
When they interviewed him on the sidelines he danced on the head of the pin about when he would be back.


That's great news! If he can dance on the head of a pin, his knee must be fine! :tease:

TK_Gamer
08-14-2006, 01:39 AM
That's great news! If he can dance on the head of a pin, his knee must be fine! :tease:

lol thats great!

thunderkyss
08-14-2006, 08:08 AM
Personally, I wasn't impressed with either Winston, or Spencer. I mean with the hype we'd been getting here, that they would be starting this year...... I don't see that happening, not unless someone gets hurt.

In theory, moving Mario inside, and putting Babin & Peek on the ends would be an awesome lineup...... explosive, and unstoppable.

In practice, I think it may slow Mario's development. Of course, this is after one preseason game.... I'd be willing to continue with this experiment, to see how it works out, but right now, I'm skeptical to say the least.

Again, this is after one preseason game, but I would like to see Weaver out on passing downs..... Mario, TJ, Payne, and Babin That would be our starting line up.

HOU-TEX
08-14-2006, 09:19 AM
Personally, I wasn't impressed with either Winston, or Spencer. I mean with the hype we'd been getting here, that they would be starting this year...... I don't see that happening, not unless someone gets hurt.

In theory, moving Mario inside, and putting Babin & Peek on the ends would be an awesome lineup...... explosive, and unstoppable.

In practice, I think it may slow Mario's development. Of course, this is after one preseason game.... I'd be willing to continue with this experiment, to see how it works out, but right now, I'm skeptical to say the least.

Again, this is after one preseason game, but I would like to see Weaver out on passing downs..... Mario, TJ, Payne, and Babin That would be our starting line up.

:challenge I think Spencer had a nice game and it also appears his coach thought he did fairly well too. Winston wasn't really noticed, which IMO, is a good thing for a line man.
http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2748&section=N%20Latest%20News

Spoda
08-14-2006, 09:28 AM
man either i was drunk ..or you were thunder...i watched spencer and he crushed that scrub he was lined up against..nearly every play he blew him up..and i remember at least twice he was all the way down field when the receiver was tackled....and he's a big man....maybe i was drunk

HJam72
08-14-2006, 09:32 AM
man either i was drunk ..or you were thunder...i watched spencer and he crushed that scrub he was lined up against..nearly every play he blew him up..and i remember at least twice he was all the way down field when the receiver was tackled....and he's a big man....maybe i was drunk

I don't thing he's supposed to beat the receivers downfield, but I guess it's OK to shove your guy into the stands. :ok:

Spoda
08-14-2006, 09:38 AM
well when i say "all the way down the field" i mean 5 yards past the line of scrimmage...we didn't exactly air it out....but he would maul his guy and look for someone else to hit...i like this guy

HOU-TEX
08-14-2006, 09:41 AM
well when i say "all the way down the field" i mean 5 yards past the line of scrimmage...we didn't exactly air it out....but he would maul his guy and look for someone else to hit...i like this guy

I like him too! He was all over the place the few times I pin-pointed his play. He's unbeleivably quick for his size as well.

thunderkyss
08-14-2006, 10:01 AM
I like him too! He was all over the place the few times I pin-pointed his play. He's unbeleivably quick for his size as well.


I agree, as a prospect, his athleticism is something else..... he's got all the tools to be a really great LT.

I'm just saying I don't believe he is ready to start in the NFL. he should definitely take a few snaps..... but I don't see him competing for a starting job anytime soon.

HOU-TEX
08-14-2006, 10:05 AM
I agree, as a prospect, his athleticism is something else..... he's got all the tools to be a really great LT.

I'm just saying I don't believe he is ready to start in the NFL. he should definitely take a few snaps..... but I don't see him competing for a starting job anytime soon.

He's has been competing for the starting position throughout TC. I think he's got a good chance of winning it too.

Vinny
08-14-2006, 10:36 AM
Personally, I wasn't impressed with either Winston, or Spencer. I mean with the hype we'd been getting here, that they would be starting this year...... I don't see that happening, not unless someone gets hurt.

In one quote I see you say you only watched the highlights then you say you aren't impressed with Spencer...which one is it?

Kubiak praised Spencer pretty highly fwiw

Roughnecks
08-14-2006, 10:50 AM
Hey no sacks and the qb really did not look like they were in danger and that has me geeked. And as far as it just being preseason the way we played last year I think it is important that we win at lease 3 of these games going in to the real season because these guys have seen nothing but losing so they need to play to win reguardless of preseason. Overall they played great and no injurys.

thunderkyss
08-14-2006, 11:20 AM
In one quote I see you say you only watched the highlights then you say you aren't impressed with Spencer...which one is it?

Kubiak praised Spencer pretty highly fwiw


They're both true...... the one where I said I only watched the highlights, were the day of the game.... I'm sure I didn't even mention spencer in my posts on Saturday.

my other posts, starting last night....... I posted saying I had watched the whole game.

Kubiak's words were vague enough.... I don't know where Spencer stood with him before the game, or what Kubiak expected from him.

but I was not impressed by the kid....... sorry. I doubt Wand is in any danger of loosing his job soon.

nunusguy
08-14-2006, 11:50 AM
man either i was drunk ..or you were thunder...i watched spencer and he crushed that scrub he was lined up against..nearly every play he blew him up..and i remember at least twice he was all the way down field when the receiver was tackled....and he's a big man....maybe i was drunk
I dunno, but maybe Thunder was the one who was drunk, because drunk or
sober, you're take is right on about Spencer, IMO.
Wand looked pretty descent to, but he's definitely more of a finesse guy
compared to the brute powerhouse that Spencer is.

texan279
08-14-2006, 11:55 AM
I dunno, but maybe Thunder was the one who was drunk, because drunk or
sober, you're take is right on about Spencer, IMO.
Wand looked pretty descent to, but he's definitely more of a finesse guy
compared to the brute powerhouse that Spencer is.

IMO, from after watching the game twice, to me, Wand looks much better against the run than the pass, but that is just from what I saw watching the game and might have missed some things, tomorrow I plan to take a closer look at the game.

Honoring Earl 34
08-14-2006, 12:06 PM
Spencer plays like Erik Williams of the Cowboys used to play . He has the hardest hand punch (I think thats what its called ) a lot of scouts have seen and he likes to use it . He pops the DE and gets him off balance and then tries to knock him down . I slow motioned several of the plays he was in .

Vinny
08-14-2006, 12:09 PM
but I was not impressed by the kid....... sorry. I doubt Wand is in any danger of loosing his job soon.I can't trust your judgment then. Spencer destroyed his man on one of the TD runs...just pure dominance. He had several 'take out' blocks...he looks like the real deal to me. I'll point you to some of the plays later when I go over all the possessions.

Runner
08-14-2006, 12:11 PM
IMO, from after watching the game twice, to me, Wand looks much better against the run than the pass, but that is just from what I saw watching the game and might have missed some things, tomorrow I plan to take a closer look at the game.

I don't think Wand's run blocking has ever been an issue - he did well as a run blocker in 2004. Pass blocking is what gets discussed most here though.

Spencer also run blocks well. I was at the game and haven't rewatched my recording yet, but I saw him punch the DE a couple of times and rock him back. Pretty nice to see.

Here is the thing. It is OK for Wand and Spencer to both be starter quality. If one gets better, that doesn't mean the other has to get worse. It doesn't have to be one or the other! Two good LTs are a luxury. Visualize - think of the old Doublemint gum commercials.

Vinny
08-14-2006, 12:12 PM
I don't think Wand's run blocking has ever been an issue - he did well as a run blocker in 2004. Pass blocking is what gets discussed most here though.I mentioned this in the game thread too..but I thought Wand held his own and played much better than I expected based on what the forum "insider guys" were telling us based on their up close look in camp.

beerlover
08-14-2006, 12:14 PM
regradless I doubt Wand can keep Spencer from becoming the starter @ LT sooner rather than latter :shades:

Vinny
08-14-2006, 12:17 PM
regradless I doubt Wand can keep Spencer from becoming the starter @ LT sooner rather than latter :shades:I can't see him beating out Spencer right now...but it's early and we can't come to too many conclusions yet. Wand was used on the right side early in his career. He may have a future at RT if Winston can't put his game together and Weigert won't be here too much longer since he is injury prone and getting old.

Texans Horror
08-14-2006, 12:22 PM
I mentioned this in the game thread too..but I thought Wand held his own and played much better than I expected based on what the forum "insider guys" were telling us based on their up close look in camp.

This was similar to my overall impression of the game from the view of the trenches. Based on what I had heard about OTAs and camp, I thought the o-line would have struggled more and the defense would have performed much better.

Runner
08-14-2006, 12:25 PM
I can't see him beating out Spencer right now...but it's early and we can't come to too many conclusions yet. Wand was used on the right side early in his career. He may have a future at RT if Winston can't put his game together and Weigert won't be here too much longer since he is injury prone and getting old.

I know this will surprise some of you, but I can see Wand holding him off.

It would be interesting to see Spencer up against a premier speed rusher like Freeney. I think Freeney's quickness and veteran savvy would give our rookie as much trouble as he gave Wand in his second year, although Spencer might not even notice his bull rush.

The thing is though, this coaching staff would never leave Spencer on an island against Freeney. They'd scheme to help him out until he was ready to take him one-on-one.

I'm optimistic about an o-line where we discuss who earns a starting slot, rather than who has to to start because we have to field 5 guys.

Kaiser Toro
08-14-2006, 12:29 PM
Now this is where I will need to defer to former lineman or current/ex-football coaches. Is it best to have one LT play the whole game or split duty for two closely rated LT's? Let's just assume they are equal in run blocking and pass protection.

I am not experienced in the ebb and flow of OL/QB chemistry.

jerek
08-14-2006, 12:29 PM
I mentioned this in the game thread too..but I thought Wand held his own and played much better than I expected based on what the forum "insider guys" were telling us based on their up close look in camp.

I was one of those "insider" guys who was saying Wand wasn't looking good early into camp. At one point he took a backseat but I added then as I do now, that it was way too early to know, and that nothing was remotely set in stone. And I think the coaching and technique work is paying off at this point ... though I still think Spencer can and might overtake him. I will be paying a lot of attention to both O and D line in tape review tonight; I tend to watch the receivers and the ball in live games, I don't typically see the O-line unless they do something really bad.

Runner
08-14-2006, 12:36 PM
Now this is where I will need to defer to former lineman or current/ex-football coaches. Is it best to have one LT play the whole game or split duty for two closely rated LT's? Let's just assume they are equal in run blocking and pass protection.

I am not experienced in the ebb and flow of OL/QB chemistry.

I'm not in the category of responder that you are looking for, but off the top of my head I can't remember any team that rotated o-lineman on a regular basis. I don't know how effective that can be given the "team play" aspects of the line - which I guess is the point of your question.

NATHANHALE
08-14-2006, 12:59 PM
This was similar to my overall impression of the game from the view of the trenches. Based on what I had heard about OTAs and camp, I thought the o-line would have struggled more and the defense would have performed much better.

...defense gave up 172yds, got 5 sacks, 14 pts, and is ranked #1 in the NFL---what exactly were you expecting after the first game in a new system?..."Much better???????????????"...please, I gotta hear this!

Runner
08-14-2006, 01:08 PM
This was similar to my overall impression of the game from the view of the trenches. Based on what I had heard about OTAs and camp, I thought the o-line would have struggled more and the defense would have performed much better.

I posted this in some of the OTA/training camp threads, but I'll repeat it here.

I think the defense has a distinct advantage in camp. After a few days the defense knows the offensive plays, and there is little the offense can do to "fool" the defense or keep them off balance. This allows the defense to be much more aggressive and may tilt the opinion of the fan observing the action.

HOU-TEX
08-14-2006, 01:15 PM
...defense gave up 172yds, got 5 sacks, 14 pts, and is ranked #1 in the NFL---what exactly were you expecting after the first game in a new system?..."Much better???????????????"...please, I gotta hear this!

He was probably refering to the first team D. I thought they could've done a little better myself. As I mentioned in another thread, the D was vanilla. They didn't run many if any blitzes with the first teamers. I expect we'll see more of our D as pre-season wears on.:)

the wonger need food
08-14-2006, 01:41 PM
They're both true...... the one where I said I only watched the highlights, were the day of the game.... I'm sure I didn't even mention spencer in my posts on Saturday.

my other posts, starting last night....... I posted saying I had watched the whole game.

Kubiak's words were vague enough.... I don't know where Spencer stood with him before the game, or what Kubiak expected from him.

but I was not impressed by the kid....... sorry. I doubt Wand is in any danger of loosing his job soon.

If Spencer isn't starting by week 6 I will eat my left shoe...

Kaiser Toro
08-14-2006, 01:44 PM
If Spencer isn't starting by week 6 I will eat my left shoe...

Mmmmmmmm, it does go well with the chicken.

Texans Horror
08-14-2006, 01:47 PM
I should have quantified my response. Yes, I am only talking first-team D. IMO, it is hard to accept teh validity of game/team stats when your second and third stringers play the majority of the game. And FWIW, Texans D did very well on their opening series.

NATHANHALE
08-14-2006, 01:48 PM
He was probably refering to the first team D. I thought they could've done a little better myself. As I mentioned in another thread, the D was vanilla. They didn't run many if any blitzes with the first teamers. I expect we'll see more of our D as pre-season wears on.:)

well, 0 pts on the first teamers is what it is--I'll take it under any circumstances--enjoy it!...too, no one is explaing how the D could have played not just better, but 'much better.'

HOU-TEX
08-14-2006, 02:08 PM
well, 0 pts on the first teamers is what it is--I'll take it under any circumstances--enjoy it!...too, no one is explaing how the D could have played not just better, but 'much better.'

IIRC, most of, if not the whole first team D was in on thier first TD drive.
Yes, it has been explained in other threads on the fact that they were running on us a little easier than what one expected. I think the Texans as a whole played good. I expect them to get better as pre-season goes on. I'm anxious to see some more blitze packages installed too.:whip:

NATHANHALE
08-14-2006, 02:15 PM
IIRC, most of, if not the whole first team D was in on thier first TD drive.
Yes, it has been explained in other threads on the fact that they were running on us a little easier than what one expected. I think the Texans as a whole played good. I expect them to get better as pre-season goes on. I'm anxious to see some more blitze packages installed too.:whip:

...ok, our 1st team was still in the game when KC's 2nd team scored mid-way through the 2nd qtr--my bag, didn't know our 1st team was in the game that long...

socalfan
08-14-2006, 11:59 PM
Who do you all think they will keep as back-ups? Also do they keep 9 or 10?

painekiller
08-15-2006, 02:37 AM
Denver kept 4 RBs and 2 FBs last season. I don't know if that is typical or not. If I were to guess, I'd say Davis, Morency, Smith, and Lundy are in. Taylor on the practice squad. Cook the fullback, with one of the TEs backing up Cook.

I'd say that was about right, if Davis can go at all. And we keep 4 TEs.

painekiller
08-15-2006, 02:47 AM
On one play Spencer had his man on the ground and just jump on top of him. Pinning him, it was a thing of beauty to me. I see him being the starter before the season is over.

threetoedpete
08-15-2006, 04:15 AM
Personally, I wasn't impressed with either Winston, or Spencer. I mean with the hype we'd been getting here, that they would be starting this year...... I don't see that happening, not unless someone gets hurt.


Befor I give you a bad rep. I'll give you a chnce to reconsider this. Spencer Stoned his man at the end of the first half, 95 % of the time. Don't know what you were watching sweet pea, but it wasn't Spencer. Oh by the way, Spencer and the tightend...rolled up... read put a collar on him and made him their B*&tch, the RDE on the lundi strecth play at the 3:29 mark of the first half. Yeah not impressive at all.

bigtex77
08-15-2006, 04:47 AM
If Spencer isn't starting by week 6 I will eat my left shoe...

Would you like some mango salsa with that? :rolleyes:

aj.
08-15-2006, 07:06 AM
Befor I give you a bad rep. I'll give you a chnce to reconsider this. Spencer Stoned his man at the end of the first half, 95 % of the time. Don't know what you were watching sweet pea, but it wasn't Spencer. Oh by the way, Spencer and the tightend...rolled up... read put a collar on him and made him their B*&tch, the RDE on the lundi strecth play at the 3:29 mark of the first half. Yeah not impressive at all.

That RDE was Clint Mitchell who I doubt will be on anyone's 53 this year. Spencer lined up against, and basically owned Mitchell the entire time he was in there but that's not saying a whole lot - other than that Spencer looked great toying with a guy who at this point is a marginal NFL player.

Spencer didn't get a chance to work against their starter Jared Allen who, unlike Mitchell, is strong and quick off the edge. I would have liked to have seen that matchup. Wand had his hands full with Allen in the first quarter.

Kubiak liked the way Seth played and he liked the way Spencer played. It's a good problem to have. Personally, I see Spencer seeing a lot of action at LT this season and eventually becoming the starter. It's just a matter of when.

Winston is learning - not coming along quite as fast as Spencer - but he will eventually get there.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 07:56 AM
Befor I give you a bad rep. I'll give you a chnce to reconsider this. Spencer Stoned his man at the end of the first half, 95 % of the time. Don't know what you were watching sweet pea, but it wasn't Spencer. Oh by the way, Spencer and the tightend...rolled up... read put a collar on him and made him their B*&tch, the RDE on the lundi strecth play at the 3:29 mark of the first half. Yeah not impressive at all.


Look, I'll definitely watch the game again...... but right now, I stand by what I said. Both Winston and Spencer looked like rookies, and the game was moving too fast for them. I think they were both working Very hard trying to keep up against 2nds & 3rds....... Spencer is clearly ahead of Winston, which doesn't say much for Winston, when he's playing the less demanding role.

They both did well........ for rookies...... but right now, I wouldn't put Spencer against Umenyiora, Freeny, Seymour, Charles Grant, or John Abraham.

Runner
08-15-2006, 08:15 AM
Spencer didn't get a chance to work against their starter Jared Allen who, unlike Mitchell, is strong and quick off the edge. I would have liked to have seen that matchup.

I totally agree - Allen was head and shoulders above any other RDE they put on the field. It will be interesting to see if the coaches make a point of getting Spencer some work against the better DEs this pre-season. I think he'll end up looking pretty good against better competition, but I doubt he'll look as dominant as he does against lesser players.

To be clear: I think Spencer is outstanding for a rookie 3rd round left tackle with his level of experience; I just don't think he will be an Orlando Pace type this year. I think some people are getting that impression; they may be disappointed in the regular season. I'm going with cautious optimism vs. unbridled enthusiasm. It's a tough position.

HOU-TEX
08-15-2006, 09:22 AM
Look, I'll definitely watch the game again...... but right now, I stand by what I said. Both Winston and Spencer looked like rookies, and the game was moving too fast for them. I think they were both working Very hard trying to keep up against 2nds & 3rds....... Spencer is clearly ahead of Winston, which doesn't say much for Winston, when he's playing the less demanding role.

They both did well........ for rookies...... but right now, I wouldn't put Spencer against Umenyiora, Freeny, Seymour, Charles Grant, or John Abraham.

Right now, I'd put them up against the best in order to achieve the correct game speed going into the regular season. I'd like to see coach K let Spencer play with the ones. I'm willing to bet he'd hold his own, and then some. I see him winning the position quicker than one would expect.:twocents:

Chance_C
08-15-2006, 10:53 AM
I have never been high on Seth Wand, but considering the guys making the decisions (Sherman and Kubiak) I was not ready to write him off. Then came the opinions of fans from camp, and I was really worried. What I'm getting at is that I was pleasantly surprised by him. I've never had TIVO or DVR or whatever the hell it is, but I do now, and I can rewind. He held his own pretty good in run blocking and pass blocking IMO. I'm not ready to declare him a future HOF'er but I'm not screaming for his head either. Spencer is the real deal I do believe that, therefore I don't think that it will be so much as Wand losing his job as it will be Spencer earning it. I feel good about both of them.

srstex
08-15-2006, 11:20 AM
I have been calling for Wand's replacement for two years now, and always thought that Pitts did a good job in his second year before being moved inside for Wand on the end in his third, ( and don't bring up the first year Pitts was a rookie LT even Gallary of the Raiders was moved to RT as a rook, very few make it as a rookie LT ). I believe in the coaching staff and their decissions, so if Sherman says Wand is the guy, I believe.
But Spencer will be the starter by game 9.

IMO

:homer:

Chance_C
08-15-2006, 11:30 AM
But Spencer will be the starter by game 9

I don't disagree with that, but I do like the fact that he will not become the starter by default. He will be pushed to earn it (which I think he can also), because Wand has improved right along with him.

texasguy346
08-15-2006, 12:32 PM
I can't trust your judgment then. Spencer destroyed his man on one of the TD runs...just pure dominance. He had several 'take out' blocks...he looks like the real deal to me. I'll point you to some of the plays later when I go over all the possessions.

Put me down as one who thinks Spencer is the "real deal" too. He looked a lot better out there than Winston did IMO, but that's not to say Winston played poorly. Spencer just played like he'd been in the league 3 or 4 seasons instead of playing like a rookie in his first taste of the NFL. He was dominant and he showed excellent strength. IMO he reminded me of Willie Roaf out there, and I know that's high praise but I think Spencer deserves it. He's bound to stumble once and again early in his career, but I think once he gets a chance to start in this leauge he's never going to relinquish the role.

chameleon_ds
08-15-2006, 12:35 PM
That's great news! If he can dance on the head of a pin, his knee must be fine! :tease:

go texans

Double Barrel
08-15-2006, 01:35 PM
Kubiak liked the way Seth played and he liked the way Spencer played. It's a good problem to have. Personally, I see Spencer seeing a lot of action at LT this season and eventually becoming the starter. It's just a matter of when.

Interesting... :hmmm: Thanks for the insight. This is a position battle that I'll definitely watch as the season progresses.

edo783
08-15-2006, 01:56 PM
IIRC, Wand is signed to a one year contract. If Spence winds up winning the LT spot, do we then go after Seth for real quality depth? The next question would be, would he take it or would some other team scoop him up as a starter?

Runner
08-15-2006, 02:26 PM
IIRC, Wand is signed to a one year contract. If Spence winds up winning the LT spot, do we then go after Seth for real quality depth? The next question would be, would he take it or would some other team scoop him up as a starter?

To answer your question, if Seth does well this year and is still beaten out as a starter, another team would be sure to bid up for an LT that has performed well. They aren’t that easy to find.

However…..

All interesting conjecture, but what if **gasp** Wand remains the starter? He hasn’t been replaced yet despite frequent and sometimes obstinate reports to the contrary.

First he wasn’t going to make the team, then he’d be a back-up, then it was an experiment with him on first team, then he wouldn’t make it through OTAs as first string. There were similar predictions for training camp, pre-season, and the season. He continues to prove the nay sayers wrong.

He has been labeled a quitter and worse, but I see a guy fighting through adversity to continue his pursuit – and succeeding. Isn’t that what people want to see? Why is he a quitter and not a fighter?

Yes Spencer has done well. I’m glad we have him! Well, Seth played against the starters and did well. Spencer played against weaker opponents. The level of competition seems to be valid in the Carr/Rosenfels debate; it should apply here equally. Why do so many people grudgingly admit Seth “didn’t suck” rather than say “he played well”? We all assume Spencer will continue to get better, but so will Wand.

Maybe it’s time to let go of the Pendry-like negative connotations for Wand.

My rant is over for now. Sorry.

Hulk75
08-15-2006, 02:35 PM
I can't trust your judgment then. Spencer destroyed his man on one of the TD runs...just pure dominance. He had several 'take out' blocks...he looks like the real deal to me. I'll point you to some of the plays later when I go over all the possessions.
Darn right Vinny I saw the same thing.

I watched Spencer and the guy IS a beast. Great feet from such a big guy. And has a lot of power, just wait untill he gets a year of NFL workouts and games under his belt.

And I do believe that Wand could lose his job, IF he cant pass protect better. I bet Charles starts the 1st game.

The drag that Carr hit Moulds on, he had to shrug off the DE cause he was pushed back so far into Carr. Wand just gives up too much room when he is pass blocking that is what I see from him. He cant let guys have that big of a head start at him, sooooo many moves a DE can do if given too much room.

Texans Horror
08-15-2006, 02:39 PM
I feel ya, dawg. I like keeping up with the o-line, and Wand vs. the world seems to be the biggest conflict since about...forever. Second only to Carr vs. the world.

My own personal theory, and it's just a theory, mind you, is that early negativity was coming from people who were bitter about Pitts not being the LT. They were so adament, I figured they were Pitts' relatives. But once it became clear Pitts was going to be starting LG (and a fine one, too, I might add), then other people on the board started crying for Spencer to replace Wand. This just seems to be the "want a newer model" variety of opinion and less the "he's my brother/uncle/whatever so you are all jerks for thinking otherwise" variety of argument. In the end, it has been fun to watch the evolution of "Wand-haters."

Eventually, though, Runner, they will be right. Cause one day, Wand will retire/go to another team. And all the haters will say "told you so. I knew he wasn't good enough." In the meantime, I am going to sit back, relax, and watch some great football.

Runner
08-15-2006, 02:48 PM
And I do believe that Wand could lose his job, IF he cant pass protect better. I bet Charles starts the 1st game.


Spencer certainly might beat Wand out. Make no mistake - I think Spencer is pretty darn good with a very high ceiling. The first game is pretty soon though - bold prediction.

-----------------------------------

If Spencer is the starter, and "the speed rusher who gives Spencer trouble right now" in the guise of Dwight Freeney takes him for 3 sacks in the first Colts game, then is Spencer our new bust and we have to start calling for Winston? I just want to be able to keep up. :rolleyes:

Hulk75
08-15-2006, 06:51 PM
Spencer certainly might beat Wand out. Make no mistake - I think Spencer is pretty darn good with a very high ceiling. The first game is pretty soon though - bold prediction.

-----------------------------------

If Spencer is the starter, and "the speed rusher who gives Spencer trouble right now" in the guise of Dwight Freeney takes him for 3 sacks in the first Colts game, then is Spencer our new bust and we have to start calling for Winston? I just want to be able to keep up. :rolleyes:
What if he does not?:shades: :cool:

Runner
08-15-2006, 07:03 PM
What if he does not?:shades: :cool:

That would be cool.

I'm just pointing out people may have some unrealistic expectations for the 3rd round rookie. The board does not handle disappointment in a player well, even if the expectations are unrealistic.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 09:55 PM
Look, I'll definitely watch the game again...... but right now, I stand by what I said. Both Winston and Spencer looked like rookies, and the game was moving too fast for them. I think they were both working Very hard trying to keep up against 2nds & 3rds....... Spencer is clearly ahead of Winston, which doesn't say much for Winston, when he's playing the less demanding role.

They both did well........ for rookies...... but right now, I wouldn't put Spencer against Umenyiora, Freeny, Seymour, Charles Grant, or John Abraham.


OK....... I watched the game again..... when I made the post I just quoted, I had Spencer rated as an 8, and Winston as a 7.... They both know what they are doing.... they move well, they're athletic enough, so far, not to get beat...... they appear to be strong enough to keep their man in front of them. They appear to be playing like solid second stringers. But I thought Spencer was a little closer to starting. Especially, if Wand doesn't please Kubiak.

Now, I'm seeing an even bigger gap between Spencer and Wand, & I don't see Spencer starting this year for any reason other than an injury to Wand, and maybe even Salaam.

Don't take this to mean they both suck, I think they'll be great eventually. But Wand looked even better the second time I watched the game.

#1, I don't see this mean streak or this domination by Spencer.. almost everytime he tried to cut block someone, that someone avoided it, and Spencer was left on the ground eating turf. This Happened on his very first play from scrimmage.... he was the beached Whale that Lundy tripped over and Rosenfels pass hit the ground.

#2 when he attacked the linebackers, once he more or less just touched the LB, and stayed between the LB & the ball carrier....... didn't blow him up, didn't put him on the ground, didn't move him out of the way. On another occassion, he put his head down, and missed, another was the missed cutblock mentioned earlier..... of which I think there were 4 alltogether. Once, he did make good contact with a linebacker........ he stunned him, but didn't go to the ground.

#3..... Our offensive line only committed one penalty the whole game....... illegal formation...... offense......#77...... no holding...... no false starts... really that's a good thing.

#4 Only once, did I see Spencer actually push the rusher away from the QB..... it was only one push, and it was a really good push.. but on most every play, the rusher.....#72 most of the time just ran himself out of the play...... But OwenDaniels did just as well blocking him..... that's not a negative on Spencer.... except that #72(Curtis Mitchell??) had a lot more to do with Spencer looking good than Spencer did.

When the run was coming his way...... he did fine... hell, he did great. But when the line moved the other way, and he was supposed to block the guy who lines up on the OG......... well, let's just say he was a little late. Twice, that guy was the guy who stopped Taylor for a short gain.

Just looking at his size..... the way he moves.... and his hustle, I have no doubt he'll be a starter in this league........ & if Kubiak says he has the potential to be one of the best, I believe him.... But I just don't see him starting this year.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 10:21 PM
Befor I give you a bad rep. I'll give you a chnce to reconsider this. Spencer Stoned his man at the end of the first half, 95 % of the time. Don't know what you were watching sweet pea, but it wasn't Spencer. Oh by the way, Spencer and the tightend...rolled up... read put a collar on him and made him their B*&tch, the RDE on the lundi strecth play at the 3:29 mark of the first half. Yeah not impressive at all.

This was the 17 yard run by Lundy(eyeballin it)....... I have it marked as one of Spencers good plays...... He knocked down Clint Mitchell..... and as the momentum of the line was going that way, he actually tripped on Mitchell.

& I'm not saying I wasn't impressed with the kid..... I am. Just that the talk on the board coming our of training camp was that Spencer was really close. & with Winston being a 1st round prospect, and Spencer picking up beter and faster than him..... I expected to see someone who could start for a number of NFL teams by the first of the season.

Right now, I'm just not seeing it.

But...... it was only one game..... I may change my mind come Saturday..

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 10:25 PM
Darn right Vinny I saw the same thing.

The drag that Carr hit Moulds on, he had to shrug off the DE cause he was pushed back so far into Carr. Wand just gives up too much room when he is pass blocking that is what I see from him. He cant let guys have that big of a head start at him, sooooo many moves a DE can do if given too much room.

It is true, that Jared Allen got a couple of Fingers in Carr's Jersey...... but that was the only play Wand gave up so much ground on..... I think it's going to take time for him to find out how far Carr will drop back... he was way behind the LOS... and of course he's got to judge the strength and speed of the DE, and adjust his technique accordingly.

aj.
08-16-2006, 06:45 AM
It is true, that Jared Allen got a couple of Fingers in Carr's Jersey...... but that was the only play Wand gave up so much ground on..... I think it's going to take time for him to find out how far Carr will drop back... he was way behind the LOS... and of course he's got to judge the strength and speed of the DE, and adjust his technique accordingly.

1. Look at the Lundy TD run - the endzone replay - and watch what Allen does to Wand (although it was away from the cutback and not really a major factor in the play). To his credit, Wand get's in Allen's way for a split second, but I don't think the one-on-one outcome was as desired.

2. Wand has several NFL starts. Pocket depth is pretty much established in any system whether it's a 3, 5, or 7 step drop. I think Wand should know where the QB is by now and the angles to take for drive-by's. Carr has to learn to step up as well but on the play in question, Wand gave up too much inside angle.

Kubiak said publicly that Wand played well and that's a good thing. But that doesn't mean he played a perfect game or that fans can't critique things that catch their eye.

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 07:43 AM
1. Look at the Lundy TD run - the endzone replay - and watch what Allen does to Wand (although it was away from the cutback and not really a major factor in the play). To his credit, Wand get's in Allen's way for a split second, but I don't think the one-on-one outcome was as desired.

NO question, Wand made mistakes as well.


2. Wand has several NFL starts. Pocket depth is pretty much established in any system whether it's a 3, 5, or 7 step drop. I think Wand should know where the QB is by now and the angles to take for drive-by's. Carr has to learn to step up as well but on the play in question, Wand gave up too much inside angle.

I could have sworn we already agreed we had bad coaching last year..... or are you one of those guys who believe only our QB coach sucked??

Kubiak said publicly that Wand played well and that's a good thing. But that doesn't mean he played a perfect game or that fans can't critique things that catch their eye.

I completely agree......

Runner
08-16-2006, 08:28 AM
Kubiak said publicly that Wand played well and that's a good thing. But that doesn't mean he played a perfect game or that fans can't critique things that catch their eye.

For Wand or any player, fair evaluations - criticism and praise - carry a lot more weight for me. I don't think anyone played a perfect game, and I don't think anyone has blown every play in training camp and during the game. I find it hard to take seriously the opinions of posters who make blanket statements of pure hyperbole and get defensive when they are called on it.

Examples of this abound - exaggeration kills a lot of good threads around here. A simple, valid criticism of Carr usually sets off a 10 pages thread of redundant posts because many want him to be considered perfect, just as does a post saying our past four years of frustration are all Carr’s fault. The truth is somewhere in the vast middle ground.

Another example – the board’s hive mind can’t even agree if Mario was double teamed for his 13 plays last Saturday. I’ve seen a lot of “he was always double teamed” posts and a few “he was never double teamed” posts. Words like always and never set off warning flags to me – the truth again is somewhere in the middle, and posts that acknowledge that are more accurate.

I was glad to see some posts that got away from pre-conceived notions after the first game. For instance, TJ got some praise for his play – he certainly exceeded my expectations, which weren’t very high to start with.

I’ll take thoughtful analysis over knee jerk opinion any time.

aj.
08-16-2006, 12:46 PM
I could have sworn we already agreed we had bad coaching last year..... or are you one of those guys who believe only our QB coach sucked??



My point was that by now, Wand should have a pretty good idea where the pocket is, and how someone playing his position needs to adjust for speed, power, and angles. This is his fourth year. He had 16 starts in '04. He started 36 games in college.

Are you saying that any poor performance can be blamed on bad coaching during a previous regime? Does his on-field experience and ojt - especially those 16 games in '04 - not count for anything? What about the things he does well? I suppose that's all because of what Sherman has done with him over the last 3 1/2 months and nothing else?

Obviously Kubiak and Co. saw enough good things on film from prior years to stick him in at left tackle from the first day of OTAs. (personally I think Spencer takes his job at some point during the season but that's another thread).

At some point it comes down to the player having the mental and physical capacity to perform effectively and consistently over time. If Seth was a really good left tackle, he wouldn't have a rookie 3rd round draft choice breathing down his neck for the job.

Again, I'm glad there seems to be legit competition for that job for the first time in 5 years. I want Wand and Spencer both to do well over there because if they do, that means Carr will be able to focus more on the things he needs to focus on...

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 01:03 PM
My point was that by now, Wand should have a pretty good idea where the pocket is, and how someone playing his position needs to adjust for speed, power, and angles. This is his fourth year. He had 16 starts in '04. He started 36 games in college.

Are you saying that any poor performance can be blamed on bad coaching during a previous regime?

NO, I made a poor argument.

but where the pocket was on that play..... ?? I don't know... for all I know, David took 7 big steps, instead of 7 steps...... he was setting up pretty far back there....... Maybe it was Wands mistake?? I don't believe it was....... Maybe Seth took the wrong angle, and had to compensate...

what are we talking about??

Runner
08-16-2006, 01:13 PM
but where the pocket was on that play..... ?? I don't know... for all I know, David took 7 big steps, instead of 7 steps...... he was setting up pretty far back there....... Maybe it was Wands mistake?? I don't believe it was....... Maybe Seth took the wrong angle, and had to compensate...


After reviewing film, comments from the boards, and other evidence from secret files (:rolleyes: ), I have come to this conclusion:

Wand got pushed back too far on that play.

Sometimes the simple answer is the correct one. Every player on the team gets beat at one time or another - they are competing against exceptional athletes on the other team too :shocked. Perfection might be expected, but the occasional mistake should be understandable.