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View Full Version : Step to the light:Mario versus Bush


Wolf
08-13-2006, 05:01 PM
This debate is incredible..
How do you compare 2 different positions?

Where do you compare these guys?
What do you compare them to?
What is the standard that you set to compare them?

Bush gets stats in: rushes/yards/td's and receptions/yards/tds

Williams stats show up in tackles/assist tackles and sacks..

so with that said what is even comparable to the two is
Williams will or should command double teams..Bush will or should demand special defensive assignments due to speed.. Both players should open things up for others around them. only way to compare the two is how much does each player improve the stats of his side of the ball.. Williams should improve our defensive ranking, bush should inprove the offensive ranking of the saints.. that is the only similarities there is.


only notable stats you can compare is how many tackles and sacks does williams gets or how many td's does bush get?
that is the only noteable stats that can be looked at on paper.
How can you compare td's to sacks /tackles? how many tackles will equal to one of bush's Td's? 5? 6?

too many variables to compare two players at two totally different positons. ESPN is just trying to keep the ratings high and keep fueling the media train..

Wolf
08-13-2006, 05:06 PM
oh btw bush had 0 tds' and mario had 0 sacks if you want to compare

tulexan
08-13-2006, 05:08 PM
You can't compare them. We will have to wait until next year when Bush will go head to head against Mario (unless the unlikely scenario of a Saints - Texans Super Bowl occurs).

Wolf
08-13-2006, 05:16 PM
You can't compare them. We will have to wait until next year when Bush will go head to head against Mario (unless the unlikely scenario of a Saints - Texans Super Bowl occurs).

but how do you compare it? look at bush's long run against the titans... he went left then stopped and darted the other way.. if that was the Texans..that would tell me . Mario did his job and Bush had to dart away from him and backside didn't do their job.. you can't blame that on Mario(hypothetically)...

you can't compare them head to head.. this isn't Jordan versus Drexler or Hakeem versus Ewing..

jerek
08-13-2006, 05:22 PM
but how do you compare it? look at bush's long run against the titans... he went left then stopped and darted the other way.. if that was the Texans..that would tell me . Mario did his job and Bush had to dart away from him and backside didn't do their job.. you can't blame that on Mario(hypothetically)...

you can't compare them head to head.. this isn't Jordan versus Drexler or Hakeem versus Ewing..

Sure you can. You try hard enough, you can eventually cram a square peg into a round hole.

tulexan
08-13-2006, 05:22 PM
but how do you compare it? look at bush's long run against the titans... he went left then stopped and darted the other way.. if that was the Texans..that would tell me . Mario did his job and Bush had to dart away from him and backside didn't do their job.. you can't blame that on Mario(hypothetically)...

you can't compare them head to head.. this isn't Jordan versus Drexler or Hakeem versus Ewing..

I realize that and you make a good point. It is really hard to compare offensive players to defensive players because what they bring to the table is so different. Were Shaun Alexander's touchdowns any more or less valuable than Troy Polamalu's tackles, sacks, or interceptions? Maybe, maybe not. Both were major players in their respective team's run to the Super Bowl.

What makes it even harder to compare is that both players are going to teams that have coaching staff overhauls, so how do you know if it is the player or the coach? Reggie is not the only new addition to the Saints offense and Mario is not the only addition to the Texans defense. Is it them, or are the other new additions also the reason for the improvement?

edo783
08-13-2006, 06:45 PM
The offense guys always get the press and the defense guys get the rings. All splash and flash won't win, but strangly enough, a real talented defense can win. See Bears and Ravens. Big defense little offense. The media (with their agenda) will always try the Bush/Mario thing but it is trully apples and orenges.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-13-2006, 06:50 PM
Then I guess you can't compare our 2nd string DE (Travis LaBoy) to Larry Johnson. You can always compare players. Who played better? That's how you compare them.

Wolf
08-13-2006, 06:53 PM
Then I guess you can't compare our 2nd string DE (Travis LaBoy) to Larry Johnson. You can always compare players. Who played better? That's how you compare them.
what is the criteria?

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-13-2006, 07:09 PM
Draft is over everyone, please move on...........Saints fans pray for Reggie to have a great year, Texans Fans pray for Mario to have a great year, and both stay healthy for our teams........that's all that really matters

Wolf
08-13-2006, 07:14 PM
I agree with that Luv Ya Blue.. and I mentioned that in my original post

only way to tell is to see how much better the Texan defense is overall this year with him compared to last and vice versa for the Saints and their offense is overall..

Wolf
08-13-2006, 07:18 PM
Also San antonio sports stations is getting into the mix.. I honestly belive it is a no win situation for the Texans this season.. S.A. station talked about how mario didnt' make an impact ...next went to Vince and his debut and his ankle... then went to "the player the Texans passed on, reggie bush" (showed the highlight)..so no win...if one week bush makes a play ..texans passed on this guy...next week if VY ...texans passed on this guy.. I guess the price you pay for #1 overall... I am thinking if MW doesnt' get a sack a game (12 for the season is what Peppers got) we will hear this all season.

only way is if the Texans improve as a team and go up in the standings over the Saints and Titans..

Wolf
08-13-2006, 07:32 PM
very true LYB

It won't go away until the Texans go to the playoffs and the other teams don't IMO...

Hottoddie
08-13-2006, 07:40 PM
My opinion is that going into the draft, Mario would have a bigger impact on the Texans than Bush would. We had a couple of solid defensive players, but couldn't put any real pressure on the line. Mario gave us that.

Bush, on the other hand, would have had to run behind an OL that hadn't exactly been world beaters & we had no way of knowing that we'd be able to pick up the players we did in the draft.

However, even with the talent we acquired on the OL, it's going to take some time before they become a cohesive unit. The DL has more latitude when it comes to working together as a unit. While they too, need time to gel together, they should be working as a cohesive unit much sooner than the OL.

With a year of seasoning, the OL should be ready for a premier RB next year. That's why I hope we'll be making a serious run at Adrian Peterson in next year's draft. He's got the breakaway speed & quickness of Bush, with the size & strength to take it up the middle.

Hottoddie
08-15-2006, 01:16 AM
but you aren't saying the Saints OL are "world-beaters" are you? Great RB's (NOT saying AT ALL that RB is one) seen to find a way! Who knows how many yards B. Sanders would have had if he'd been running behind E. Smith's line?????

No. What I'm saying is that, running backs tend to have very short careers, & when you get a chance at a good one, you need to have a very good OL in place. That way, you get the most out of him. Otherwise, you could end up with one of the best RB's of all time (Sanders) & nothing to show for it.


Your comments "Mario gave us that..." are a little early on IMO. We haven't seen YET that he can tote the load and be that impact player. I hope that with a little time and coaching, he will grow into the man-child we all hope he really is. Just didn't see it yesterday.

Agreed. However, he's a rookie in his first NFL game. I believe, & reportedly so do his teammates/coaches, that he'll be a major force in the NFL. DE's tend to have very long careers (compared to RB's) & Mario (potentially) gives us the impact DE we've never had before. That is why I believe he was the better choice for the Texans.

By the way, he's already helping the team by drawing double teams from the start. That frees someone else up, & with the quality of our DL, that can only lead to good things for the good guys.

zwz404
08-15-2006, 02:01 AM
Luv_ya_Blue makes a good point on Barry S. IMO, if he had run
behind that Dal Off Line, he would have rushed for 2,000 yds a season.

Being a Packer fan,(as well as a Texan fan), reminds me of how
GB passed up on BS with the 2nd pick for Tony Mandarich, OT from
MSU. The "Manster", half man, half monster, unfortunetly "ALL-BUST".
Aikman, D Thomas rounded out the top 4. Guess which one didn't become
a Hall-of-Famer?

Hottoddie is right about the Texans needing a good def player. Our
pass rush was pathetic. And I'm hoping MW will come around and
change that.
But, I can't see passing up a player like RB for MW.
The most exciting player last year was Mathis returning kickoffs. It would
have been nice having a player like Bush, who can break a long one.

RiotCommander
08-15-2006, 03:35 AM
If you want to see how truely fickle the media is just wait and see if Bush gets hurt as most backs do these days. I don't wish the guy any ill will, but he is already labeled "soft". So lets not act like he is the golden child. ESPN is just jumping all over the Texans because its the popular opinion. Also Mario only had like 20 plays the other game. I'm sure if you look throughout the league most starting DEs dont have a sack either.

Numbskull
08-15-2006, 05:12 AM
If you want to see how truely fickle the media is just wait and see if Bush gets hurt as most backs do these days. I don't wish the guy any ill will, but he is already labeled "soft". So lets not act like he is the golden child. ESPN is just jumping all over the Texans because its the popular opinion. Also Mario only had like 20 plays the other game. I'm sure if you look throughout the league most starting DEs dont have a sack either.

I haven't seen anyone yet label him as "soft." From what I have seen from him, the kid is as tough as he can be at his size. He didn't shied away from contact once yet and is willing to put down the shoulder at times (not always a successful endeavor at 204 lbs).

Other thing.. Being the #1 overall pick.. Williams isn't one of the "starting DEs" you speak of as he has a much more pressure from the media... People will be comparing him to Bush and Vince for the rest of their careers and if he doesn't live up to either one its going to be the "I told ya so" from anyone and everyone.

I agree with lyb.. How to compare these guys is how much they impact the outcome of a game. Its not a straight stats comparison.. #'s will be meaningless as should be W/L records unless one of them takes over the game like a Jordan can in the NBA.

Its simple... from who are you getting the most bang for your buck... who's making the most impact..

threetoedpete
08-15-2006, 06:40 AM
The offense guys always get the press and the defense guys get the rings. All splash and flash won't win, but strangly enough, a real talented defense can win. See Bears and Ravens. Big defense little offense. The media (with their agenda) will always try the Bush/Mario thing but it is trully apples and orenges.
I agree with this. I also believe, MHO, that what is driving this, is ESPN tring to save face over the National title game. No matter what he dose, Mario will never be better than tinkerbell butt in their eyes. He can't be. For if he is they were dead wrong about Bush( the greatest RB in three generations) and USC ( the greatest college team of all time). And they were more than just unlucky with their analysis. They were just plain dead wrong. How can you be the expert of anything and be that wrong? They, ESPN, are circling the wagons. The rest of the press feeds off of them. We'll see who plays longer . Has the most pro bowls in their carrer. I take the 4.65, 300 lbs. guy myself, but hey that's just me.

threetoedpete
08-15-2006, 06:51 AM
but how do you compare it? look at bush's long run against the titans... he went left then stopped and darted the other way.. if that was the Texans..that would tell me . Mario did his job and Bush had to dart away from him and backside didn't do their job.. you can't blame that on Mario(hypothetically)...

you can't compare them head to head.. this isn't Jordan versus Drexler or Hakeem versus Ewing..
LOL, I'm reading the great run as: This little weasel still hasn't broken 1 between the tackles...yet. We heard he could hit it up where the big uglies play. Haven't seen it yet. But we're gauranteed he can do it. Just waiting for tinkerbell butt to walk the walk. We'll see. NFL will catch up to him. Won't take all that long either. Quicker than you can say 56 million was way toooo much for a part time back.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 09:56 AM
I agree with that Luv Ya Blue.. and I mentioned that in my original post

only way to tell is to see how much better the Texan defense is overall this year with him compared to last and vice versa for the Saints and their offense is overall..

By that standard, we botched the '02 draft, by picking Carr over Peppers......

And when I'm looking at Mario, I expect his rookie year to outshine JP, because that is what we were saying when we took him. This kid is supposed to be a Reggie White/Bruce Smith type of player.

Unfortuanately, they were also slow starters..... which might be the case with Mario.

But....... IMO........... as long as we are a top 10 rushing team, I don't think anyone should question the pass on Reggie Bush.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 10:18 AM
I haven't seen anyone yet label him as "soft." From what I have seen from him, the kid is as tough as he can be at his size. He didn't shied away from contact once yet and is willing to put down the shoulder at times (not always a successful endeavor at 204 lbs).

Other thing.. Being the #1 overall pick.. Williams isn't one of the "starting DEs" you speak of as he has a much more pressure from the media... People will be comparing him to Bush and Vince for the rest of their careers and if he doesn't live up to either one its going to be the "I told ya so" from anyone and everyone.



Kinda like Julius Peppers & David Carr right??

texan279
08-15-2006, 10:25 AM
Let's end this now. Mario is a DE, Bush a RB, there is no fair way you can compare the two at all. Just because they were drafted at #1 and #2 doesn't mean we can fairly compare them since they play two totally positions. And both have only seen one preseason game in the NFL, even if we could compare the two, there would not be much to compare.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 10:33 AM
whelp...... that settles it. 279 said we should end it now, so I guess we should end it now.

The NFL & ESPN for that matter has never been fair, and neither has the fans. They will be compared for years to come...... I ain't skurd..... I think Mario will prove he was the right choice..... this year, next year, and for years to come.

texan279
08-15-2006, 10:37 AM
whelp...... that settles it. 279 said we should end it now, so I guess we should end it now.

The NFL & ESPN for that matter has never been fair, and neither has the fans. They will be compared for years to come...... I ain't skurd..... I think Mario will prove he was the right choice..... this year, next year, and for years to come.

Well I just cannot understand how there can be a 2 page thread on a comparison between a running back and defensive end. Why don't we compare Bruce Smith vs. Emmitt Smith or Reggie White vs. Earl Campbel while we're at it...

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-15-2006, 10:51 AM
Luv_ya_Blue makes a good point on Barry S. IMO, if he had run
behind that Dal Off Line, he would have rushed for 2,000 yds a season.


I disagree with this assessment. And I've had many debates with Lions fans and Cowboy fans about this very same thing.

It was for the very fact that the Lion's O-line was NOT the Dallas O-line that Sanders was able to do what he did. Listen. Barry is what he is. A juke back. That's his nature. And no matter what offensive line, no matter what system. It's in his nature to try and create; at times where a simple cut would have sufficed. Also remember that Emmitt Smith was a hell of a lot better at after-the-hit runs. He could carry tackles for more yards. And many times even BREAK those tackles for TDs. Smith had his share of 25-45 yrd runs too, remember (after getting hit)?

Even if Sanders had the Dallas O-line, what would he done with it? Juke, that's what. And how many more yards would he have gotten after-the-hit? None. He'd still be the same guy. A defender hitting Sanders in Dallas would do the same thing in Detroit. He'd drop to the ground just like always. And think about all those after-the-hit TD runs that Emmitt did that would have never happened if Sanders would have been the Dallas RB.

While it's true that Emmitt Smith did not have the same level of juke skills. But he was no slouch on moves. But he was patient enough, crafty enough, smart enough to learn to use the O-LINE to the benefit of the himself and team. It was in his nature to take advantage of the O-line. He KNEW HOW! It was in his nature.

Did Sanders? I think he relied too much on his juke skills which would have negated *much* of what the O-LINE benefit was trying to provide for him. He still would have racked up yards. But 2000? Nah....

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-15-2006, 11:02 AM
This debate is incredible..
How do you compare 2 different positions?

Where do you compare these guys?
What do you compare them to?
What is the standard that you set to compare them?

Bush gets stats in: rushes/yards/td's and receptions/yards/tds

Williams stats show up in tackles/assist tackles and sacks..


RINGS!


Let ESPN squabble over the table scraps...

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 11:13 AM
I disagree with this assessment. And I've had many debates with Lions fans and Cowboy fans about this very same thing.

It was for the very fact that the Lion's O-line was NOT the Dallas O-line that Sanders was able to do what he did.

I don't know about all that.... Barry wouldn't have been hit on the same part of the field where Emmitt was..... if Emmit ran 7 yards, got hit, and ran for another 25, the equivalent would have been Barry juking a guy 7 yards from the LOS, then running for another 25.....

But there are other questions that go along with this.... would anyone have noticed the talent of Larry Allen, mark Stepnowski & Darryll Johnson?? Would they have been Cowboys long enough to take them to the Superbowls?? Would Jay Novacheks contributions have been so great??

Emmitt was the right back for Dallas....... Barry was Barry.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-15-2006, 11:26 AM
Emmitt was the right back for Dallas....... Barry was Barry.

That's true. But since we were talking about O-line vs the two backs. My point is that Barry was Barry and that he juked himself into trouble as much as he did to get himself out of trouble. And since he wasn't as good as breaking tackles. It averaged itself out.

I also believe that one of the reason that Barry had as many yards that he did (extra?) was because the Lions gave him the ball exclusively. In Dallas, they shared the ball (Emmitt, Irvin, Harper, Novachek, Johnson, etc..).

It was almost as though they artificially created more yrd stats for Barry, just because he was the main offense they could count on. Sharing the ball in Dallas would have lowered Barry's yardage -- or at least had a lessing effect even with a better O-line -- in addition to the effect that his juking would have created (bad and good). All of which I talked about above.

Don't get me wrong. Barry was an incredible RB with God given skills. I just think this Emmitt vs Barry vs O-line isn't as simple as some make it out to be.

Honoring Earl 34
08-15-2006, 11:29 AM
Having a really good DL and a really good OL seems to be the way most great teams are built . The byproduct may be that the QB , RB and WR look really good to .

The Cowboys of the 90's are a good example of this . They dominated both sides of the line of scrimmmage and the only thing to stop them was car wrecks , failed drug test , bad backs and free agency .

zwz404
08-17-2006, 12:04 AM
That's true. But since we were talking about O-line vs the two backs. My point is that Barry was Barry and that he juked himself into trouble as much as he did to get himself out of trouble. And since he wasn't as good as breaking tackles. It averaged itself out.

I also believe that one of the reason that Barry had as many yards that he did (extra?) was because the Lions gave him the ball exclusively. In Dallas, they shared the ball (Emmitt, Irvin, Harper, Novachek, Johnson, etc..).


Barry didn't break tackles?! I suggest you watch his highlights. He broke
tackles too many times to count.
I agree with you that Barry got the ball more with Det. He was all they had. Despite being keyed on, he still rushed for over 1,000 yds in every season of his career. He retired averaging 5 yds a carry.
Teams could not just concentrate on Emmit because of Aikman, Novcek, and Irvin. Emmit didn't get even 1,000 yds his 1st year with the Cowboys.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-18-2006, 01:31 AM
Barry didn't break tackles?! I suggest you watch his highlights. He broke
tackles too many times to count.
I agree with you that Barry got the ball more with Det. He was all they had. Despite being keyed on, he still rushed for over 1,000 yds in every season of his career. He retired averaging 5 yds a carry.
Teams could not just concentrate on Emmit because of Aikman, Novcek, and Irvin. Emmit didn't get even 1,000 yds his 1st year with the Cowboys.

I think you are mischaracterizing what I'm saying. I didn't say that Barry DID NOT break tackles. I said he wasn't *that* good at it. It wasn't HIS main game. Juking and evasion was HIS GAME. Breaking tackles to me means taking 2-3 defenders head on and either going for TD or bull rushing them for 4-5 more yards. Emmitt WAS better at this than Barry.

Next, when you said, "Despite being keyed on, he still rushed for over 1,000..." That implies that I didn't acknowledge that Barry had an individualistic skill to get yards by his own freelancing style. I was not saying that.

I was saying that him getting the ball MORE in addition to his natural ability which is what generated the yards. It comes down to the fact that Barry attained yards differently than Emmitt did. But IMO, I prefer the balanced RB (bull power AND speed; it's more versatile) than the juke style RB. To me, it's more conducive to a winning team and more dependable in 4th quarter situations.

Having said all that. This should give you a clearer picture of how Barry was able to generate yards as well as Emmitt <-- even though Emmitt shared the ball more, he still got 18K which suggest a very efficient RB.

I don't like focusing on an individualistic skill or talent (just speed or just power). I'd rather look at the whole back and their versatility in total. And then try to conceive how to use that back in a TEAM concept. And Emmitt, IMO, was a more complete back.

And just personally comes down to what type of RB do you like. The juke backs are just a pet peeve for me. As are tall, high-center of gravity RBs like Eddie George. Bah... :(

CloakNNNdagger
08-18-2006, 08:41 AM
If you want to see how truely fickle the media is just wait and see if Bush gets hurt as most backs do these days. I don't wish the guy any ill will, but he is already labeled "soft". So lets not act like he is the golden child. ESPN is just jumping all over the Texans because its the popular opinion. Also Mario only had like 20 plays the other game. I'm sure if you look throughout the league most starting DEs dont have a sack either.
************************************************** ***
This little piece I found perfectly and honestly illustrates what happens to a college back coming into the NFL relying on his ability to stay outside the tackles. The "glory" outside runs are there very occasionally but dry up quickly, and the RB better be durable when they are introduced to a 1000 pounds plus waiting for them in the middle.........Welcome to the NFL Mr. Bush.

************

Panthers: DeAngelo Williams learned much from opener
8/17/06

Rookie running back DeAngelo Williams said that of all the lessons he learned from his first game, perhaps the most important was when to stop running.

The Panthers first-round pick gained a single yard on his first seven carries before popping a 20-yarder and calling it a night against Buffalo. Included in the early struggles were back-to-back losses of 7 and 2 yards.

He said after seeing the plays on film, there were no holes for him and that he should have gone down for no gain rather than losing yardage.

"I thought I was trying to go outside a lot during the game when I should have stuck my head in and picked up 4 yards," Williams said. "Yards are hard to come by in the NFL. I found that out after the game. A college yard is a lot shorter than an NFL yard, I definitely figured that out.

"That's one of my things that I picked up after watching film. If there's nothing there, just take my head and just bury it. In college, my head coach told me 'I don't care how you get it, just get me 4 yards.' coach here says if there's nothing there, stuff it, and I'm still looking for those 4 yards.

"I'm getting my mind-frame to stuffing it. I'm getting better at that, and it'll come with more games."

link (http://buzzfans.com/sports/spcol2/story/6029734p-5)

TexanBearkat
08-18-2006, 08:52 AM
If Mario is helping the Defense get to the QB and better run defense then he is doing his job. No disrespect to Reggie Bush but I really do not care how he is doing in New Orleans. I am a Texans fan and not concerned about who we didn't pick #1 but rather with who we did get.

the wonger need food
08-18-2006, 09:20 AM
Both teams won.

The score is 1-1.

zwz404
08-19-2006, 12:14 AM
If Mario is helping the Defense get to the QB and better run defense then he is doing his job. No disrespect to Reggie Bush but I really do not care how he is doing in New Orleans. I am a Texans fan and not concerned about who we didn't pick #1 but rather with who we did get.


I think our defense will be better with Mario and with D. Ryans.
But, I will follow what Bush does in NO.
I'm a Texan fan, too. But, if Bush does turn out great, I will
remember that we had a chance to get him.