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TexanBacker93
08-15-2006, 01:21 AM
Thank you for reinforcing my point. He's not even glorifying a Training Camp Hero as much as he's just hatin' on DC.

Hell even some Dolphins fan said Rosenfels does this every year, lights it up in training camp.

Look around the NFL; the backup QBs seem to always have great preseasons. Maybe it's the lack of depth in the Defensive backfield or teams have so many guys fighting for roster spots that they don't play the 1st 2 strings much at all.

Lucky
08-15-2006, 10:33 AM
To be fair to me, I was calling for Carr to be benched BEFORE the first preseason game, so you cant really call it a knee-jerk now can you?
Fairness is a 2-way street, don't you think? Here's what I remember you (and a lot of other doubting Thomases) said about Sage at the time he signed with the Texans (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=289892&postcount=85).
and lets be fair...again i say, we are now only one bad sack away from the sage rosenfels era. God have mercy on us.
You're asking for fairness, but you want to judge the Kubiak-trained David Carr on two preseason possessions (one of which the team scored on)? Is that fair?

Honoring Earl 34
08-15-2006, 11:12 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned but one of the night crew guys on 610 sports,thinks that Rosenfels has outplayed Carr during all of training camp .

Porky
08-15-2006, 11:15 AM
You're asking for fairness, but you want to judge the Kubiak-trained David Carr on two preseason possessions (one of which the team scored on)? Is that fair?

It is if you have an agenda with a pre determined outcome. It's like an author writing the end of a whodonuit book and revealing the identity of the killer, and then writing the first section to ensure he is framed. No matter what Carr, short of perfection, had done SAturday, he had already decided to get on here and rag him imo.

powerfuldragon
08-15-2006, 11:18 AM
It is if you have an agenda with a pre determined outcome. It's like an author writing the end of a whodonuit book and revealing the identity of the killer, and then writing the first section to ensure he is framed. No matter what Carr, short of perfection, had done SAturday, he had already decided to get on here and rag him imo.
yup. :challenge

texan279
08-15-2006, 11:21 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned but one of the night crew guys on 610 sports,thinks that Rosenfels has outplayed Carr during all of training camp .

I would think if Sage has truly performed better than Carr Sage would be starting. IMO Kubiak is not going to let a guy start or play based on salary or loyalty or whatever reason like the old regime. I think Kubiak has shown that with the release of Wade and with Greenwood and TJ playing with the second team as of now, three guys who have/had pretty big contracts and were starters last season except for TJ.

HOU-TEX
08-15-2006, 12:13 PM
Just a small observation on my part...

I know that SWT is the one that started this thread, but...

Do you guys realize that he's only had four total posts since PAGE THREE?

I've noticed alot of you guys saying stuff like, "Man is this thread still alive?" "Why doesn't it just go ahead and die?" "End of discussion."

But I find it very curious that it isn't SWT that is keeping this thing alive.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_6.gif

That's why he's the pot stirrer. He starts a rediculous post and lets everyone go at it.:hides:

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 12:37 PM
It is if you have an agenda with a pre determined outcome. It's like an author writing the end of a whodonuit book and revealing the identity of the killer, and then writing the first section to ensure he is framed. No matter what Carr, short of perfection, had done SAturday, he had already decided to get on here and rag him imo.

I'm not going to lie..... and say swtbound hasn't already made up his mind. Heck, he's already told us that he has already made up his mind.

But Carr throwing into coverage, and fumbling the ball on 4th & 1 isn't helpiing Carr.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 12:40 PM
I would think if Sage has truly performed better than Carr Sage would be starting.

So......... are you saying Sage didn't play better than Carr did?? That Sage played better because of the competition level?? Or that Sage stunk it up against the second team??

jerek
08-15-2006, 12:59 PM
So......... are you saying Sage didn't play better than Carr did?? That Sage played better because of the competition level?? Or that Sage stunk it up against the second team??

I think he's saying Sage didn't play any better than Carr. I rewatched the tape last night and I have no idea where posters are getting the idea that Sage dramatically outplayed Carr. He made his share of mistakes/bad throws against a laughable KC defense. Given (a) the limited body of work for both quarterbacks and (b) the context in which they played, it's a pretty far stretch to claim that Sage was definitively better and/or should start.

But, as is the case with any thread involving Carr, we might as well just acknowledge that this probably won't die until Saturday's game.

Hookem Horns
08-15-2006, 01:00 PM
I can't believe you people throwing Carr under the bus like that and already calling on Rosenfelds to start. It's only been one preseason game for goodness sake! Geez, give Carr a chance.

jerek
08-15-2006, 01:01 PM
I can't believe you people throwing Carr under the bus like that and already calling on Rosenfelds to start. It's only been one preseason game for goodness sake! Geez, give Carr a chance.

Not to nitpick, but did you intentionally misspell Rosenfels on your avatar?

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235151.

Agree with your post.

texan279
08-15-2006, 01:03 PM
So......... are you saying Sage didn't play better than Carr did?? That Sage played better because of the competition level?? Or that Sage stunk it up against the second team??

I was quoting the post that stated someone on 610 stated that Sage has been out performing Carr during all of training camp, I said nothing about their play during the game. But since you ask, I do not think it is fair to either Carr or Sage to try and compare their performace based on the 5 passes Carr attempted against KC's 1st team defense against the time Sage played against KC's 2nd and 3rd team defensive guys.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 01:03 PM
I can't believe you people throwing Carr under the bus like that and already calling on Rosenfelds to start. It's only been one preseason game for goodness sake! Geez, give Carr a chance.


We need a role call...........

far as I know, swt is the only one throwing Carr under a bus.

real
08-15-2006, 01:03 PM
I think he's saying Sage didn't play any better than Carr. I rewatched the tape last night and I have no idea where posters are getting the idea that Sage dramatically outplayed Carr. He made his share of mistakes/bad throws against a laughable KC defense. Given (a) the limited body of work for both quarterbacks and (b) the context in which they played, it's a pretty far stretch to claim that Sage was definitively better and/or should start.

But, as is the case with any thread involving Carr, we might as well just acknowledge that this probably won't die until Saturday's game.

I think the reason people are saying sage played better than Carr is because of his presence and the efficiency in which he ran the offense...Not neccessarily his stats...I will admit that Sage "looked" better, but keeping in mind all of the different variables, Im not ready to hand him the starting spot just yet....:ok:

Hookem Horns
08-15-2006, 01:04 PM
Not to nitpick, but did you intentionally misspell Rosenfels on your avatar?

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235151.

Agree with your post.

:) I was wondering if any of the Rosenfels fan club would catch that actually.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 01:05 PM
I was quoting the post that stated someone on 610 stated that Sage has been out performing Carr during all of training camp, I said nothing about their play during the game. But since you ask, I do not think it is fair to either Carr or Sage to try and compare their performace based on the 5 passes Carr attempted against KC's 1st team defense against the time Sage played against KC's 2nd and 3rd team defensive guys.


thanks for clearing that up...... I agree with you.

Sage looked better, but he was playing chumps.

texan279
08-15-2006, 01:06 PM
I think he's saying Sage didn't play any better than Carr. I rewatched the tape last night and I have no idea where posters are getting the idea that Sage dramatically outplayed Carr. He made his share of mistakes/bad throws against a laughable KC defense. Given (a) the limited body of work for both quarterbacks and (b) the context in which they played, it's a pretty far stretch to claim that Sage was definitively better and/or should start.

But, as is the case with any thread involving Carr, we might as well just acknowledge that this probably won't die until Saturday's game.

This will not die until after we are all dead and gone lol. :deadhorse

jerek
08-15-2006, 01:06 PM
I think the reason people are saying sage played better than Carr is because of his presence and the efficiency in which he ran the offense...Not neccessarily his stats...I will admit that Sage "looked" better, but keeping in mind all of the different variables, Im not ready to hand him the starting spot just yet....:ok:

I didn't think he had any better presence -- he threw some real lemons -- but let's not start the "it" argument again. Carr ran the offense with precisely that same efficiency; don't see how anyone can differentiate based on that. But whichever; I don't think anyone will "win" this argument.

texan279
08-15-2006, 01:08 PM
thanks for clearing that up...... I agree with you.

Sage looked better, but he was playing chumps.

Sage looked good, but he made mistakes as well, I cannot honestly say he played better since Carr only threw five passes though.

Texans86
08-15-2006, 01:08 PM
After watching the game, I was impressed with Carr's work. I was hoping the Oline would be a little better, but can't complain as they didn't give up any sacks. I'm surprised no one compared running backs that each QB was using. Lundy looked like a beast out there, while Smith looked terrible. Obviously it was only two series, but Smith basically stopped the first series by himself on two terrible runs that led to a punt. When Lundy was out there, the defense had to account for him. They had to be honest on the play action passes. A good running back helps out a QB tremendously, so lets wait until this week when another tailback steps up against the first team defense.

Hookem Horns
08-15-2006, 01:09 PM
Guys face it, if we end up with a guy named "Rosenfels, Rosenfelds, Rosen whatever" starting at QB then we are in a LOT of trouble and I will be spending another season eating tickets.

texan279
08-15-2006, 01:11 PM
I didn't think he had any better presence -- he threw some real lemons -- but let's not start the "it" argument again. Carr ran the offense with precisely that same efficiency; don't see how anyone can differentiate based on that. But whichever; I don't think anyone will "win" this argument.

Honestly at this point, there really should not be an argument based on one preseason game where Carr threw 5 passes and Sage played against scrubs. SWT just started this thread to "stir the pot" which I think is his main reason for coming around since he loves to tell everyone how he likes to "stir the pot" and seems to love negative attention. He has posted all of what, 3 or 4 times in this 16 page thread? And the "it", so tired of hearing about "it" lol.

Hookem Horns
08-15-2006, 01:12 PM
Is it true that Sage has a sister named Paprika?

Texans86
08-15-2006, 01:14 PM
I forgot to mention, I watched the Cinci game the other night and they were talking about the injured Carson Palmer. He said he was fine physically, but mentally he couldn't stop watching his linemen for fear that one of them might roll on his knee or let a rusher passed that would hit his knee. I think that Carr may have a few of the same jitters with his current OL, considering how much he has been hit. Once he realizes he doesn't have to worry about getting hit as much, he will get even better.

Runner
08-15-2006, 01:14 PM
Is it true that Sage has a sister named Paprika?

Rosemary.

Lucky
08-15-2006, 01:15 PM
Is it true that Sage has a sister named Paprika?
You have too much thyme on your hands.

chuckm
08-15-2006, 01:15 PM
Rosemary.


I used to date her back once upon a thyme ...

chuckm
08-15-2006, 01:16 PM
You have too much thyme on your hands.


photo finish but you win

powerfuldragon
08-15-2006, 01:18 PM
i kinda wanna go listen to some simon and garfunkel now.

NoBullTexan
08-15-2006, 01:21 PM
So who really gives a rats a*s. It is only a preseason game. I'm gonna stir your pot big time when the season starts laddie!!! If you are still around, that is?

swtbound07
08-15-2006, 01:32 PM
So who really gives a rats a*s. It is only a preseason game. I'm gonna stir your pot big time when the season starts laddie!!! If you are still around, that is?


i've been here for years...where would i go?

Honoring Earl 34
08-15-2006, 01:34 PM
The fact that they have a backup pushing him is the best news for Texan fans .

titan hater
08-15-2006, 02:56 PM
Yes...You do sound ridiculous...DC is our QB...Get over it dude...

Hookem Horns
08-15-2006, 03:01 PM
I knew we should have drafted Vince Young! I thought I would have had to have waited a couple of seasons but I am throwing out the "I told you so" after just one preseason game.

:stirpot:

jdog
08-15-2006, 03:07 PM
I think we should take this opportunity to make it clear who the Carr haters are because when Carr is in the Pro Bowl this year we will need to know how much crow to cook.

Hookem Horns
08-15-2006, 03:08 PM
I think we should take this opportunity to make it clear who the Carr haters are because when Carr is in the Pro Bowl this year we will need to know how much crow to cook.

I'm not a Carr hater but I am also not a blind homer. I think Pro Bowl is a bit of a stretch don't you?

jdog
08-15-2006, 03:09 PM
I'm not a Carr hater but I am also not a blind homer. I think Pro Bowl is a bit of a stretch don't you?

Just a little bit...

HJam72
08-15-2006, 03:14 PM
I can't believe this thread has 321 posts.

swtbound07
08-15-2006, 03:21 PM
Why do you doubt me sir??? anything i say has 20 page potential

NATHANHALE
08-15-2006, 04:53 PM
I think we should take this opportunity to make it clear who the Carr haters are because when Carr is in the Pro Bowl this year we will need to know how much crow to cook.


...somebody already started a list for both sides (lovers and haters) but the bandwidth is still full of the :homer: 's from last year who never came forward to 'eat-up'

GP
08-15-2006, 05:01 PM
I'm not a Carr hater but I am also not a blind homer. I think Pro Bowl is a bit of a stretch don't you?

So mentioning your standard "It's not a MUST WIN, it's a MUST PLAY WELL" comment almost e-v-e-r-y time you reply to something about Carr does not constitute that you think he's awful?

When did you cross back into the line of people who think he can still be salvaged?

swtbound07
08-15-2006, 11:09 PM
So mentioning your standard "It's not a MUST WIN, it's a MUST PLAY WELL" comment almost e-v-e-r-y time you reply to something about Carr does not constitute that you think he's awful?

When did you cross back into the line of people who think he can still be salvaged?

when it became the popular thing to think....

Wolf
08-15-2006, 11:21 PM
Carr is in a no win situation with some people..

Carr can have bad stats and the team wins ... and they will gripe about Carr

Carr can have good stats and the team loses.yet gripping continues because he didn't get the "W"


life of a Qb on a team that struggles ..thats all

swtbound07
08-15-2006, 11:23 PM
Carr is in a now win situation with some people..

Carr can have bad stats and the team wins ... and they will gripe about Carr

Carr can have good stats and the team loses.yet gripping continues because he didn't get the "W"


life of a Qb on a team that struggles ..thats all


i fall under the category that wants W's...screw the stats.

texan279
08-15-2006, 11:23 PM
Carr is in a now win situation with some people..

Carr can have bad stats and the team wins ... and they will gripe about Carr

Carr can have good stats and the team loses.yet gripping continues because he didn't get the "W"


life of a Qb on a team that struggles ..thats all

Great post, I personally will give him one season, maybe a season and a half before I am ready to throw him under the bus, I am not going to judge after 5 passes in one preseason game.

Wolf
08-15-2006, 11:24 PM
i fall under the category that wants W's...screw the stats.
I believe ya,but it takes people around ya to look good ;)

Wolf
08-15-2006, 11:25 PM
Great post, I personally will give him one season, maybe a season and a half before I am ready to throw him under the bus, I am not going to judge after 5 passes in one preseason game.

I expect 2004 stats or better this season.. he has more talent around him than any time else.. no reason he can't do the 2004 stats.. even learning a new system..

just depends on how "pocket shy" he is and how Kubiak resets his mind

swtbound07
08-15-2006, 11:26 PM
I believe ya,but it takes people around ya to look good ;)


5 years....is one .500 season too much to ask?

Wolf
08-15-2006, 11:27 PM
had to fix the "now win" situation to "no win" situation" .the OCD in me :D

texan279
08-15-2006, 11:27 PM
i fall under the category that wants W's...screw the stats.

Well we won last Saturday, and we scored on one of the two possessions while Carr was in the game, so why'd you start this thread?

infantrycak
08-15-2006, 11:27 PM
i fall under the category that wants W's...screw the stats.

Except that the number of W's is... A STAT and it is a TEAM sport.

swtbound07
08-15-2006, 11:28 PM
Well we won last Saturday, and we scored on one of the two possessions while Carr was in the game, so why'd you start this thread?


because we won due to the performance of Sage Rosenfels of course....where were you?

texan279
08-15-2006, 11:28 PM
5 years....is one .500 season too much to ask?

Well in the last 4 years it was too much to ask due to poor coaching and lack of talent.

Wolf
08-15-2006, 11:29 PM
5 years....is one .500 season too much to ask?
was the people around him good? you take Bradford over Moulds? Billy Miller over (take your pick) joppru,Putzer,etc.. or even Flanagan over McKinney at Center?

infantrycak
08-15-2006, 11:30 PM
because we won due to the performance of Sage Rosenfels of course....where were you?

Seriously, this pot has been stirred, overboiled and burnt to the stove. You've made your point. No need to mention it every time a four letter word starting in C comes up or to poke anyone who says the slightest positive thing about the C word.

texan279
08-15-2006, 11:30 PM
because we won due to the performance of Sage Rosenfels of course....where were you?

I guess the drive we scored on with Carr in the game and the defense had nothing at all to do with the win...

Wolf
08-15-2006, 11:31 PM
because we won due to the performance of Sage Rosenfels of course....where were you?

i'd go along the lines of our 2nd string defensive line.. they tore up the KC 2nd string OL..

Larry Johnson was ripping us a new one up the middle (not to say we wouldn't have made adjustments) and Spencer was kicking their DE all over the place.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 11:46 PM
when it became the popular thing to think....


swtbound07........... I feel you. after watching Sage Saturday, my "notion" that Kubiak wanted him........ not only to push Carr, but to be the starter in the event Carr doesn't work out...... has been solidified. & I'm not as worried as I was about looking for a QB two years from now, if/when we concede David ain't gonna get it done.

Lord knows I don't drink the David Carr Koolaid...... but I understand making David Carr successful is as big a part of the organizations agenda as making the Texans successful.

Now I am old school, I like for players to come into an organization to start their careers, and end their careers on their terms... I hate the 49ers for how they treated Montanna....... I hate the Titans more for the way they treated McNair than anything BudAdams did to the city of Houston.

& right now, I'm as skeptical as the next guy(maybe not to the degree that you are) that David is not the man for the Texans. But........ I think it is the right thing to do.

The only thing that really upsets me, is that David has only given us one good season, and people on this board will die for him. While DD has given us three years and his left(??) knee..... but they are ready to toss him aside.

TJ...... Babin........ Weary..... Brown...... IMHO if we were going to pass on Vince Young so that David Can have a fair shot, then we should extend that same chance to all these players as well. Kubiak has...... for the most part. But the attitude of many of the posters on this board gets me down.

IMHO, David doesn't look any better than he did last year, but..... he only threw 5 passes...... we can't promote Sage on that alone.

David's going to screw up a lot....... I'm telling you that right now. you'll only be upsetting yourself, if you plan on doing this all year.

From my experience here on this board, everybody knows David screwed up alot last year(though they won't admit it) and he will screw up alot in the year to come...... but they all want to do the right thing, and that is to give David a fair chance.... and you can't fault them for that. IT's more important to them to be decent people than it is to win football games.......

As ****ty as Houston Fans are..... it's nice that they are decent folks after all.

thunderkyss
08-15-2006, 11:50 PM
was the people around him good? you take Bradford over Moulds? Billy Miller over (take your pick) joppru,Putzer,etc.. or even Flanagan over McKinney at Center?

I'd take Billy Miller back any day of the week. and teams have won with Bradford & McKinney...... and they'll win with Milford Brown and Jabar Gaffney.

texan279
08-15-2006, 11:54 PM
I'd take Billy Miller back any day of the week.

You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.

swtbound07
08-15-2006, 11:54 PM
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.

What do you have against billy miller? Great reieving tight end...i'd take him back over fragile joppru or unproven owen anyday

texan279
08-16-2006, 12:01 AM
I'd take Billy Miller back any day of the week. and teams have won with Bradford & McKinney...... and they'll win with Milford Brown and Jabar Gaffney.

Sure teams have won with Bradford and McKinney, the Packers won with Bradford but also had Brett Favre, Ahman Green, Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks, and a pretty good defense during that time. The Colts had 2 winning seasons out of the 4 McKinney was there along with Manning, Edge James, Marvin Harrison. Not sure how good the Cards and Eagles are gonna be this season though...

texan279
08-16-2006, 12:05 AM
What do you have against billy miller? Great reieving tight end...i'd take him back over fragile joppru or unproven owen anyday

I have nothing against him, but if he was that good he would have stuck with a team by now. He has been with 3 teams in the last 3 seasons and 4 teams in his 8 year career, and you know it's bad when you are released from the Texans by the Capers' regime.

TexansBull
08-16-2006, 12:06 AM
While everyone is taking a breather from the debate over the trial of the century, what would yall think of Jake Plummer being traded to us if DC doesnt produce and Cutler becomes the Elway's second coming?

That would be hilarious...

texan279
08-16-2006, 12:08 AM
While everyone is taking a breather from the debate over the trial of the century, what would yall think of Jake Plummer being traded to us if DC doesnt produce and Cutler becomes the Elway's second coming?

That would be hilarious...

I'd pass on Plummer...

TexansBull
08-16-2006, 12:13 AM
Almost as funny as everyone trying critique a players peformance down to every breath on a limited downs in preseason.

Wolf
08-16-2006, 12:34 AM
holly cow ..miller is a WR turned TE and y'all would keep him after Cleveland (with ole JR injured) let him go and now in N.O. he is 3rd string

I wished Billy Miller the best and I wished he'd had stayed but NFL wise .he didn't have starting talent (by what is shown by 3 teams now)

The Pencil Neck
08-16-2006, 02:01 AM
I expect 2004 stats or better this season.. he has more talent around him than any time else.. no reason he can't do the 2004 stats.. even learning a new system..


In another thread, I've stated that if his stats are a little better than 2004 (basically career bests across the board), I'll be happy because that's more than good enough to win on a good team. I've also said that I'm hoping for 8 wins but expecting 5 this season.

Whether I throw him under the bus at the end of this season will be based on whether I think he lost games with his play. We could win 12+ games but if his performance isn't good, then I'll be calling for someone else. OTOH, we could lose 12+ and if I think he performed well and we lost because the team as a whole didn't step up, then I won't be asking for his head.

But that's just me.

The Pencil Neck
08-16-2006, 02:05 AM
While everyone is taking a breather from the debate over the trial of the century, what would yall think of Jake Plummer being traded to us if DC doesnt produce and Cutler becomes the Elway's second coming?

That would be hilarious...

I would NOT be laughing. I do NOT want Plummer on this team.

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 07:00 AM
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.

Of the guys you mentioned, only Putz has caught more passess, and has more recieving yards than Billy Miller...... So, until I have someone that is better than him, who has proven that he can produce more than him....... yes....... I'd take Billy Miller over Daniels or Jopru.....

You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.

So....... three teams believe Bill Miller has NFL talent?? Is that supposed to be a bad thing??

Sure teams have won with Bradford and McKinney, the Packers won with Bradford but also had Brett Favre, Ahman Green, Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks, and a pretty good defense during that time.

& We had Carr, DD, Andre, Bruenner....... and a decent defense at one time.... what's your point??


The Colts had 2 winning seasons out of the 4 McKinney was there along with Manning, Edge James, Marvin Harrison.

Again, is that a knock against McKinney?? & if we are comparing
Manning to Carr....... Edge to Domanick........ & Harrison to Andre...... where would you see the biggest discrepency??

Not sure how good the Cards and Eagles are gonna be this season though...

I'm still not seeing your argument....... are you saying those teams are better off without said players??

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 07:04 AM
I have nothing against him, but if he was that good he would have stuck with a team by now. He has been with 3 teams in the last 3 seasons and 4 teams in his 8 year career, and you know it's bad when you are released from the Texans by the Capers' regime.

Billy Miller would have been an assett on this team the last two years, when we had little to no recieving Tightend threat.

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 07:08 AM
holly cow ..miller is a WR turned TE and y'all would keep him after Cleveland (with ole JR injured) let him go and now in N.O. he is 3rd string

I wished Billy Miller the best and I wished he'd had stayed but NFL wise .he didn't have starting talent (by what is shown by 3 teams now)

JebPutzier is a wide reciever turned Tightend.... is that a problem??

& we didn't have starting talent at tightend for the last two years....

GP
08-16-2006, 07:42 AM
After reading the last few posts, I am just speechless.

I know, I know. We're all entitled to our opinions. So, congratulations: Your opinion has been heard.

Wow.

texan279
08-16-2006, 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by texan279
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.


Of the guys you mentioned, only Putz has caught more passess, and has more recieving yards than Billy Miller...... So, until I have someone that is better than him, who has proven that he can produce more than him....... yes....... I'd take Billy Miller over Daniels or Jopru.....

There is more than receiving yards and catches when it comes to a good tight end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.


So....... three teams believe Bill Miller has NFL talent?? Is that supposed to be a bad thing??

When you have been dumped by the Texans and Browns, I consider that pretty bad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Sure teams have won with Bradford and McKinney, the Packers won with Bradford but also had Brett Favre, Ahman Green, Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks, and a pretty good defense during that time.


& We had Carr, DD, Andre, Bruenner....... and a decent defense at one time.... what's your point??

Carr is no Favre, DD is no Ahman Green, and Bruener is no Franks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
The Colts had 2 winning seasons out of the 4 McKinney was there along with Manning, Edge James, Marvin Harrison.


Again, is that a knock against McKinney?? & if we are comparing
Manning to Carr....... Edge to Domanick........ & Harrison to Andre...... where would you see the biggest discrepency??

Not a knock against McKinney, and I did not compare any of the above players mentioned, just stated that when the Colts had won with McKinney like you stated, that Manning, Edge, and Harrison were all on that team, I never compared them to anyone on our team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Not sure how good the Cards and Eagles are gonna be this season though...


I'm still not seeing your argument....... are you saying those teams are better off without said players??

Not saying they are better off without them, but you said the Cards and Eagles would win with Gaffney and Brown, which to me came across like you think these guys are going to put these teams over the top. Gaffney will be the Eagles 3rd WR and Brown is going to start at guard, and I don't see either of them making a major impact on their perspective teams, maybe an improvement over the guys they replaced, but I just do not see them doing anything special.

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by texan279
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.


Of the guys you mentioned, only Putz has caught more passess, and has more recieving yards than Billy Miller...... So, until I have someone that is better than him, who has proven that he can produce more than him....... yes....... I'd take Billy Miller over Daniels or Jopru.....

There is more than receiving yards and catches when it comes to a good tight end.

our problem with Tightend over the last two years, was that we didn't have a true recieving tightend.... Billy's problem..... far as I can tell was that he wasn't the best blocker. Billy would have solved the problem of recieving tightend, and given David a proven third option to Andre & DD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.


So....... three teams believe Bill Miller has NFL talent?? Is that supposed to be a bad thing??

When you have been dumped by the Texans and Browns, I consider that pretty bad.

Didn't the Browns send an entire offensive line.... or defensive line or something to Denver that worked out pretty good for Shanahan?? Haven't we been saying Caper's wouldn't know talent if you beat him with it??



Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Sure teams have won with Bradford and McKinney, the Packers won with Bradford but also had Brett Favre, Ahman Green, Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks, and a pretty good defense during that time.


& We had Carr, DD, Andre, Bruenner....... and a decent defense at one time.... what's your point??


Carr is no Favre, DD is no Ahman Green, and Bruener is no Franks.

Again, I'm not getting what you are saying.... are you saying our QB shouldn't be starting in the NFL?? That our RB doesn't add between 1300 & 1800 yrds of offense every year, and that our Tightend is lucky to be in the league??

We had talented players...... Enough to have a .500 seaso by now.




Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
The Colts had 2 winning seasons out of the 4 McKinney was there along with Manning, Edge James, Marvin Harrison.


Again, is that a knock against McKinney?? & if we are comparing
Manning to Carr....... Edge to Domanick........ & Harrison to Andre...... where would you see the biggest discrepency??


Not a knock against McKinney, and I did not compare any of the above players mentioned, just stated that when the Colts had won with McKinney like you stated, that Manning, Edge, and Harrison were all on that team, I never compared them to anyone on our team.

well if you don't think our players compare with any of those players, then we should've just started over, drafted Vince, and call it rebuilding.




Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Not sure how good the Cards and Eagles are gonna be this season though...


I'm still not seeing your argument....... are you saying those teams are better off without said players??

Not saying they are better off without them, but you said the Cards and Eagles would win with Gaffney and Brown, which to me came across like you think these guys are going to put these teams over the top. Gaffney will be the Eagles 3rd WR and Brown is going to start at guard, and I don't see either of them making a major impact on their perspective teams, maybe an improvement over the guys they replaced, but I just do not see them doing anything special.
I'm not saying either of those two are the "put you over the top" players..... those guys are role players, and they did their job for us.... just because Capers got rid of them doesn't mean they don't have talent to play in this league, or the ability to contribute to an NFL team.

but since we are on the subject, I think Gaffney is better than any reciever the Eagles have on their roster today...... I think it will be obvious to everyone else, come December. To clarify..... I didn't say before now that Gaffney is a "push them over the top" player" I beleive he is....... but haven't said so until now

Cjeremy635
08-16-2006, 09:21 AM
At some point in time you are going to have to look beyond talent as factors for winning and losing. You can't forget about the lack of creativity for play calling or the constant audible run to the left. Those are things that talent can't make up for. Remember, even if we had a tight end that could catch, we probably wouldn't have used him. I don't know if you remember when Billy Miller was here, but he used to go on FOX sports & also ABC 13 sports and talk with them about the games. I remember one time that he was aggrevated because he wasn't getting the ball thrown to him during the game and made some comment about our winning % when he has catches. So, stating that we would have used the talent we had is incorrect. We didn't and we wouldn't have. There are too many factors to say any player we had in the past sucked because they couldn't perform in our system. Look at Posey, didn't he go to San Diego & go to the pro bowl? (I think that was his name or Foley, can't remember) Our previous staff couldn't game plan or use anyone, even if they were a super star like Favre or TO, Brady or Harrison. I would be willing to bet if we had some of the top talent in the league under our old coaching staff we still would have lost.

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 11:33 AM
At some point in time you are going to have to look beyond talent as factors for winning and losing. You can't forget about the lack of creativity for play calling or the constant audible run to the left. Those are things that talent can't make up for. Remember, even if we had a tight end that could catch, we probably wouldn't have used him. I don't know if you remember when Billy Miller was here, but he used to go on FOX sports & also ABC 13 sports and talk with them about the games. I remember one time that he was aggrevated because he wasn't getting the ball thrown to him during the game and made some comment about our winning % when he has catches. So, stating that we would have used the talent we had is incorrect. We didn't and we wouldn't have. There are too many factors to say any player we had in the past sucked because they couldn't perform in our system. Look at Posey, didn't he go to San Diego & go to the pro bowl? (I think that was his name or Foley, can't remember) Our previous staff couldn't game plan or use anyone, even if they were a super star like Favre or TO, Brady or Harrison. I would be willing to bet if we had some of the top talent in the league under our old coaching staff we still would have lost.


Overall, good points, but you are arguing points no one has made. My main point.... about Billy Miller anyway... is that we've been lacking a pass recieving Tightend, and a recieving threat to ease the double teams on AJ...... Billy Miller would have helped in those two areas..

that's all.

Your points about the proper use of talent by the previous coaching staff, is directly inline with mine.

infantrycak
08-16-2006, 11:36 AM
our problem with Tightend over the last two years, was that we didn't have a true recieving tightend.... Billy's problem..... far as I can tell was that he wasn't the best blocker. Billy would have solved the problem of recieving tightend, and given David a proven third option to Andre & DD.

Miller has only been gone 1 year. He was here 2002-2004. He accounted for 178 yds in 2004 out of 3550 yds. Much of that drop in production from 2002 was scheme but Miller is not a starting quality TE and was released by Shanahan/Kubiak prior to coming here in addition to his trouble having any team accept him since departing.

I think Gaffney is better than any reciever the Eagles have on their roster today...... I think it will be obvious to everyone else, come December. To clarify..... I didn't say before now that Gaffney is a "push them over the top" player" I beleive he is....... but haven't said so until now

You should give Andy Reid a call because he sure needs to be moving Gaff up the depth chart.

Hulk75
08-16-2006, 11:48 AM
You guys find out if Carr is good or not yet.:rolleyes: :deadhorse

Vinny
08-16-2006, 11:57 AM
You should give Andy Reid a call because he sure needs to be moving Gaff up the depth chart.I've been told he is really struggling with the intensity of Reid's camp and is having trouble picking the offense up after a good showing in mini-camps. He is battling for the last wr spot.

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 12:55 PM
Miller has only been gone 1 year. He was here 2002-2004. He accounted for 178 yds in 2004 out of 3550 yds. Much of that drop in production from 2002 was scheme but Miller is not a starting quality TE and was released by Shanahan/Kubiak prior to coming here in addition to his trouble having any team accept him since departing.

Before the draft, there were many people hoping we'd get a pass catching tightend.... In free agency, there was quite a bit of excitement for gettting JebPutzier

What am I missing?? Billy Miller has been our best recieving tightend to date. I don't care what Romeo Krennel thought about him, or that Denver cut him. He worked for us. I'm not saying he was the best in the league...... I'm not saying he should be starting in place of Kellen Winslow...... all I'm saying is that we had a pass catching tightend, and we let him go. & if I could find a spot for him on our team, I would.

You should give Andy Reid a call because he sure needs to be moving Gaff up the depth chart.

what's his number??

Hardcore Texan
08-16-2006, 01:08 PM
swtbound07........... I feel you. after watching Sage Saturday, my "notion" that Kubiak wanted him........ not only to push Carr, but to be the starter in the event Carr doesn't work out...... has been solidified. & I'm not as worried as I was about looking for a QB two years from now, if/when we concede David ain't gonna get it done.

Lord knows I don't drink the David Carr Koolaid...... but I understand making David Carr successful is as big a part of the organizations agenda as making the Texans successful.

Now I am old school, I like for players to come into an organization to start their careers, and end their careers on their terms... I hate the 49ers for how they treated Montanna....... I hate the Titans more for the way they treated McNair than anything BudAdams did to the city of Houston.

& right now, I'm as skeptical as the next guy(maybe not to the degree that you are) that David is not the man for the Texans. But........ I think it is the right thing to do.

The only thing that really upsets me, is that David has only given us one good season, and people on this board will die for him. While DD has given us three years and his left(??) knee..... but they are ready to toss him aside.

TJ...... Babin........ Weary..... Brown...... IMHO if we were going to pass on Vince Young so that David Can have a fair shot, then we should extend that same chance to all these players as well. Kubiak has...... for the most part. But the attitude of many of the posters on this board gets me down.

IMHO, David doesn't look any better than he did last year, but..... he only threw 5 passes...... we can't promote Sage on that alone.

David's going to screw up a lot....... I'm telling you that right now. you'll only be upsetting yourself, if you plan on doing this all year.

From my experience here on this board, everybody knows David screwed up alot last year(though they won't admit it) and he will screw up alot in the year to come...... but they all want to do the right thing, and that is to give David a fair chance.... and you can't fault them for that. IT's more important to them to be decent people than it is to win football games.......

As ****ty as Houston Fans are..... it's nice that they are decent folks after all.


How are we going to go your predicted 13-3 if you think David or Sage or whoever are going to make a ton of mistakes. To go 13-3 you have to have more than just a so-so QB. There is no malice in my question, just curious?

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 01:12 PM
How are we going to go your predicted 13-3 if you think David or Sage or whoever are going to make a ton of mistakes. To go 13-3 you have to have more than just a so-so QB. There is no malice in my question, just curious?

David's mistake aren't really the throwing the ball into coverage kind of mistakes. He normally makes good decisions, and protects the ball.....

when I say he's going to screw up, so get ready for it, I mean he's going to run into the occasional sack.... he's going to not see open recievers... he's going to not audible when he should. We'll probably get a few delay of games on #8 as well. David isn't going to be perfect......... but I'm hoping he'll get the job done regardless........ kinda like BenRothlisberg, or Tom Brady the first year they won the SuperBowl.

Hardcore Texan
08-16-2006, 01:17 PM
IMO, Owen Daniel is going to be a great TE, from what little I have seen from him in the preseason, and what I have heard Kubiak say....at least the potential is there.

I like Billy Miller and think he will have a special place with Texans fans and should always be recognized for his signature moment, that is for sure, and I wish him luck. But no way do I see him making this squad. We are too deep at TE, with lots of talent.

Lucky
08-16-2006, 01:21 PM
Before the draft, there were many people hoping we'd get a pass catching tightend...
The Texans did draft a pass catching TE. Owen Daniels #81. Check him out this Saturday against the Rams, I think you'll like what you see.

Billy Miller was a good receiving TE for the Texans. Was. In the '03 offseason, the Texans asked Miller to put on weight in order to become a better blocker. The additional weight didn't help that much in the blocking department, and it really hurt Billy's ability to create seperation from linebackers. Miller became a guy who wasn't a good blocker and not able to uncover. And that's why he's struggling to stay in the league.

Blu
08-16-2006, 01:30 PM
I'm just happy seeing the TE being utilized now.:bananasplit:
David will benifit by having Owens,Putznier,and Benny in the mix now and open up the running game with effective protection.
With David rolling out more, the TE will find a way to get open more offten. :shades:

swtbound07
08-16-2006, 02:44 PM
Its funny to see the way my little thread meanders and grows when i go to sleep...

thunderkyss
08-16-2006, 04:41 PM
5 years....is one .500 season too much to ask?


Well in the last 4 years it was too much to ask due to poor coaching and lack of talent.


was the people around him good? you take Bradford over Moulds? Billy Miller over (take your pick) joppru,Putzer,etc.. or even Flanagan over McKinney at Center?


I'd take Billy Miller back any day of the week. and teams have won with Bradford & McKinney...... and they'll win with Milford Brown and Jabar Gaffney.


For all the people coming late to the party. My Billy Miller argument belongs in this context. I'm not comparing Billy Miller to any of the guys on our current Roster..... I'm not implying..... or trying to.... that Billy Miller would start over any of these guys.

I believe many of us agreed that we needed a tightend to threaten the middle of the field. I'm just saying Billy Miller would have filled that void. I never would have gotten rid of Billy Miller if i didn't have a proven replacement.

That's all.

powerfuldragon
08-16-2006, 04:43 PM
...here i was thinking this thread was finally going to die.

BradK10
08-16-2006, 05:51 PM
edit - not worth it

texan279
08-16-2006, 06:08 PM
EDIT* Nevermind, this thread has gotten too far off topic.

hollywood_texan
08-16-2006, 06:12 PM
Its funny to see the way my little thread meanders and grows when i go to sleep...

My take on David's performance Saturday night is that you really can't judge it too much.

The reason is simple, he only played two series.

It could have easily been a disaster if that INT wasn't dropped and he couldn't have picked up that fumbled snap to still pick up the first down.

The one thing I did notice is that is seemed all of the pass plays were really safe. It didn't seem like he was really stretching the field.

At some point they are going to have to do that, otherwise defenses will shut down that bootleg and the short passing game.

Good news, it seems as though the entire offense has not been implemented for game purposes.

I think the Denver and Tampa Bay games will provid a really good indication of how Carr and the offense will perform at the beginning of the season.

Doug
08-16-2006, 06:28 PM
My take on David's performance Saturday night is that you really can't judge it too much.

The reason is simple, he only played two series.

It could have easily been a disaster if that INT wasn't dropped and he couldn't have picked up that fumbled snap to still pick up the first down.

The one thing I did notice is that is seemed all of the pass plays were really safe. It didn't seem like he was really stretching the field.

At some point they are going to have to do that, otherwise defenses will shut down that bootleg and the short passing game.

Good news, it seems as though the entire offense has not been implemented for game purposes.

I think the Denver and Tampa Bay games will provid a really good indication of how Carr and the offense will perform at the beginning of the season.
I wouldn't be surprised if you only see Carr for one series, if at all, against Tampa.

DRAMA
08-16-2006, 06:50 PM
Things always seem rosier when looking back.

Billy Miller was an avg-to-below avg tight end on his very best day in the NFL. His hands are no better than Bruener's - he just may be more athletic...slightly. Billy Miller is often refered to as an option we used to have. We had no offense and Carr panicked quite often. Almost all young QB's (Which are more likely to be on bad teams) throw to their TE and their RB. It's a panic button. If Miller played the best season of his life, at the end of the year regardless of where he played, he would be roughly average at the very best.

hollywood_texan
08-16-2006, 07:02 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if you only see Carr for one series, if at all, against Tampa.

That will concern me.

This is a new offense and they need as many reps before the regular season if they want to start off strong.

You could be be right though. But keep in mind, this is not a proven team.

infantrycak
08-16-2006, 07:31 PM
The one thing I did notice is that is seemed all of the pass plays were really safe. It didn't seem like he was really stretching the field.

At some point they are going to have to do that, otherwise defenses will shut down that bootleg and the short passing game.

That is somewhat the Denver offense. The attempt to AJ was certainly a downfield play but was broken up by a very good play by the LB.

One thing to note--all 5 of Carr's pass attempts were to WR's. 11 of 18 passing attempts from Sage went to RB's or TE's. Not at all saying anything of merit about either player--just an observation. I would expect a healthy mix to the RB and TE's from Carr as well with more plays.

texun
08-16-2006, 08:58 PM
For all of the people who have been slamming me when I said we should start rosenfels over carr, now do you at least admit it should merit consideration?? One Qb looked poised, made good reads and throws, and ran the offense crisply, and the other looked nervous, flustered, made bad throws, locked onto his primary target, and didnt run the offense well. Rosenfels should at LEAST be starting a preseason game, if not hop Carr on the depth chart.


Let's not rush to change QB's after just 1 preseason game. I was very pleased and presently surprised at Rosenfelds play but I still believe Carr can be an elite QB under the current coaching staff.

Hulk75
08-16-2006, 10:05 PM
For anyone to think Sage is better then Carr or thinks he should start over him needs help. I would also do okay against the Chiefs 3 string guys, holy hand granade, the lack of talent drops off a lot from 1 to 3.

So we had a 5 year vet Sage going up against guys that are playing in their 1st game as a pros. :shades: :tease:

HoustonFan
08-16-2006, 10:18 PM
i fall under the category that wants W's...screw the stats.


Yeah, this sounds about right. I wouldn't care if he had 50 yards total, 6 INTs, and sacked 3+ times in the game. If the Texans won, WHO CARES ABOUT THE DAMN STATS? At the end of the day a W is a W

Wolf
08-16-2006, 10:32 PM
Carr is in a no-win situation.

Carr could complete 40 percent of passes have 14 ints and 10 Td's and Texans go 12-4 ..people will say "we could be 16-0 if we had a Qb that was any good"


or
Carr could complete 60% of passes have 34 td's and 4 ints and the Texans go 7-9and people will say "Carr isn't getting the W's"


so do you cut the red wire or the blue wire on that?

Hookem Horns
08-16-2006, 10:44 PM
Carr is in a no-win situation.

Carr could complete 40 percent of passes have 14 ints and 10 Td's and Texans go 12-4 ..people will say "we could be 16-0 if we had a Qb that was any good"


or
Carr could complete 60% of passes have 34 td's and 4 ints and the Texans go 7-9and people will say "Carr isn't getting the W's"


so do you cut the red wire or the blue wire on that?

Not following you here because those scenarios are backwards. If Carr throws for 60%, 34 TD's etc. chances are the Texans have the better record like your 12-4 scenario. I see that as a "win situation" for Carr.

If he does the other 40% of his passes, etc. chances are the Texans have the lesser record.

So I see Carr having a possible win situation. QB play has a LOT to do with the W's and L's.

Wolf
08-16-2006, 10:50 PM
Not following you here because those scenarios are backwards. If Carr throws for 60%, 34 TD's etc. chances are the Texans have the better record like your 12-4 scenario. I see that as a "win situation" for Carr.

If he does the other 40% of his passes, etc. chances are the Texans have the lesser record.

So I see Carr having a possible win situation. QB play has a LOT to do with the W's and L's.

I should have quoted the posts above.. they are saying they don't care about stats just "W"'s
I didn't do a good job exaggerating my point.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=26004
this thread talked a little about expectations and Carr

infantrycak
08-16-2006, 11:03 PM
Not following you here because those scenarios are backwards. If Carr throws for 60%, 34 TD's etc. chances are the Texans have the better record like your 12-4 scenario. I see that as a "win situation" for Carr.

If he does the other 40% of his passes, etc. chances are the Texans have the lesser record.

So I see Carr having a possible win situation. QB play has a LOT to do with the W's and L's.

I thought Wolf's point was pretty clear--some people are going to filter whatever information comes in to meet their predetermined result of not liking Carr.

I'd say that is a fair assessment for Carr, politics and most debates. The flip side is true and there are people who will filter the results to say whatever Carr did was the best that could be expected under the circumstances.

Runner
08-17-2006, 05:48 AM
I thought Wolf's point was pretty clear--some people are going to filter whatever information comes in to meet their predetermined result of not liking Carr.


...predetermined result of not liking Carr, Wand, Weary, TJ, Babin, Buchanon, etc.

I might add.

thunderkyss
08-17-2006, 06:42 AM
Should Andrew Walter be starting over Aaron Brooks??

it's a little off topic, but it's also a little comparable situation. Aaron Brooks played against the first team..... Andrew didn't. Most people believe Andrew looked better, and Oakland has a QB controversy going on right now.

Statwise, Aaron's numbers are better if not comparable to Carr's..... the only real difference is that Andrew(sp) is the future of Oakland....... which is a big difference. But judging from their performance, Monday night, and the Thursday before last...... would that be reason enough to start Andrew over Aaron??

infantrycak
08-17-2006, 07:57 AM
Statwise, Aaron's numbers are better if not comparable to Carr's..... the only real difference is that Andrew(sp) is the future of Oakland....... which is a big difference.

There wouldn't be any controversy in Oakland right now if Brooks had come in and performed to his normal average. His pre-season however has been miserable going 2 of 9 for 28 yds with 1 TD and 1 INT for a 37.5 QB rating. On top of the stats his missed throws have had to be put in mailboxes to be returned to the "if found please return" address because they have been so far off. That's the big difference.

Kaiser Toro
08-17-2006, 08:04 AM
On top of the stats his missed throws have had to be put in mailboxes to be returned to the "if found please return" address because they have been so far off. That's the big difference.

Now that is comedy.

texan279
08-17-2006, 09:09 AM
There wouldn't be any controversy in Oakland right now if Brooks had come in and performed to his normal average. His pre-season however has been miserable going 2 of 9 for 28 yds with 1 TD and 1 INT for a 37.5 QB rating. On top of the stats his missed throws have had to be put in mailboxes to be returned to the "if found please return" address because they have been so far off. That's the big difference.

Post of the year right there lmao. :bananasplit:

the wonger need food
08-17-2006, 09:19 AM
I would also do okay against the Chiefs 3 string guys, holy hand granade, the lack of talent drops off a lot from 1 to 3.

Sure you would. How would you do against USC or Texas? What about Katy High?

Seriously though, Rosenfels needs some reps with the first team to see how he performs. Allegedly he was brought in to give Davey some competition, so let's see it.

The good news is (hopefully) that if Rosenfels plays well in the preseason Kubiak won't have any issue with benching Carr... something that should have been done several times in his career.

KKHouston
08-17-2006, 09:33 AM
Sure you would. How would you do against USC or Texas? What about Katy High?

Seriously though, Rosenfels needs some reps with the first team to see how he performs. Allegedly he was brought in to give Davey some competition, so let's see it.

The good news is (hopefully) that if Rosenfels plays well in the preseason Kubiak won't have any issue with benching Carr... something that should have been done several times in his career.

Rosenfels has been a backup all 6 years in the league, and had two starts, and played in 13 games. The guy backed up Feeley and Ferrotte... He's not starter material. If he couldn't start for the Dolphins, or even Washington, why would we want him to start here? He'll be like Kubiak.... good off the bench, but a career backup.

the wonger need food
08-17-2006, 09:54 AM
Rosenfels has been a backup all 6 years in the league, and had two starts, and played in 13 games. The guy backed up Feeley and Ferrotte... He's not starter material. If he couldn't start for the Dolphins, or even Washington, why would we want him to start here? He'll be like Kubiak.... good off the bench, but a career backup.


Your opinion has been noted. However, I would argue that Carr has played like a career backup as well. The main difference is that Carr has had a lot more opportunities to show that he can be a quality NFL QB. Out of 70+ games that he has played (including preseason, and yes I've seen every single one of them) I have seen this in small peices and enough times to count on one hand.

KKHouston
08-17-2006, 10:04 AM
Your opinion has been noted. However, I would argue that Carr has played like a career backup as well. The main difference is that Carr has had a lot more opportunities to show that he can be a quality NFL QB. Out of 70+ games that he has played (including preseason, and yes I've seen every single one of them) I have seen this in small peices and enough times to count on one hand.

I think the situations are different, Wonger. Sage wasn't tossed into the mix at the very beginning of his career and expected to "Work it out" with the line, the coaching, and most importantly in my opinion, the "leadership" at the time.

Carr has shown flashes of brilliance. I've seen game 1 through now as well. As a Initial 4 seat PSL holder, I realize I may be biased towards Carr; I will support whatever the team decides is best. I do believe that Carr has what it takes, and will continue to believe he should be the starter, until proven differently. It's been reported (and with the lack of real reporting in Houston, it should be taken with a grain of salt) that all involved in decisions for the Texans belive Carr has what it takes to lead this team. I tend to agree. Would Kubiak really stake his reputation and acceptance here on Carr if he didn't believe in him?

Lucky
08-17-2006, 10:11 AM
Would Kubiak really stake his reputation and acceptance here on Carr if he didn't believe in him?
Of course he wouldn't. That doesn't seem to carry much weight with some Texan fans who are convinced they are better evaluators of the quarterback position than Kubiak.

thunderkyss
08-17-2006, 10:30 AM
Rosenfels has been a backup all 6 years in the league, and had two starts, and played in 13 games. The guy backed up Feeley and Ferrotte... He's not starter material. If he couldn't start for the Dolphins, or even Washington, why would we want him to start here? He'll be like Kubiak.... good off the bench, but a career backup.


Delhomme backed up Aaron Brooks for what 4 years?? but Somebody took a chance on him in Carolina.

texan279
08-17-2006, 10:41 AM
Delhomme backed up Aaron Brooks for what 4 years?? but Somebody took a chance on him in Carolina.

When Delhomme was brought in to Carolina, their other 2 QB's were Chris Weinke and Rodney Peete. And Delhomme had success in the NFLE and in the last two preseasons he played with New Orleans he had a passer rating of over 110 each of those two preseasons with a combined 68% completion percentage, 8 TD passes and 2 INT's, so he had shown some success before being signed by Carolina and it's not like Carolina had real solid QB's when he was brought in.

SnakeOilTanker
08-17-2006, 10:42 AM
well that settles it. since Delhomme was behind Brooks the Texans need to bench their gazillion dollar investment because Sage looked good and David looked average in one pre-season game.

solid thinking

really

titan hater
08-17-2006, 10:56 AM
well that settles it. since Delhomme was behind Brooks the Texans need to bench their gazillion dollar investment because Sage looked good and David looked average in one pre-season game.

solid thinking

really

LOL

agreed...

Intelligences = SUM of ones own stupidity (or opinion)

thunderkyss
08-17-2006, 11:35 AM
When Delhomme was brought in to Carolina, their other 2 QB's were Chris Weinke and Rodney Peete. And Delhomme had success in the NFLE and in the last two preseasons he played with New Orleans he had a passer rating of over 110 each of those two preseasons with a combined 68% completion percentage, 8 TD passes and 2 INT's, so he had shown some success before being signed by Carolina and it's not like Carolina had real solid QB's when he was brought in.
I'm going to have to take notes.... I don't remember where you stand on a couple of issues....

#1..... does preseason success mean anything?? Personally I believe it's usefull when evaluating talent.... Sage looking good in our preseason opener makes me want to see him play with the first team.... Delhomme's Preseason Success with NewOrleans has credibility in his ability to be a starting NFL QB....

#2... NFLE how much does that relate to the NFL..... personally, I think NCAA performance is more indicative of how the player will do in the NFL. Hence, Drew Henson's & Dave Ragone's success in NFLE shows me they have talent to play the game(which is what I knew when they came out of college)
I may be wrong, but again you seem to believe it adds to a guys credibility as an NFL Starter...

#3.... I've got to assume you believe we are "real solid" at the QB position??


look, I don't really want to argue this with you..... I usually end up dizzy, so let's try something else..

The sky is blue.......... your turn.

thunderkyss
08-17-2006, 11:43 AM
well that settles it. since Delhomme was behind Brooks the Texans need to bench their gazillion dollar investment because Sage looked good and David looked average in one pre-season game.

solid thinking

really

Is that what I said?? or is that the way you read it??

I've already stated I wouldn't replace Carr with Sage based on one preseason game where Carr only threw 5 passes.

I brought up Delhomme, because someone mentioned that Sage will only be a backup, since he's only been a backup.

thunderkyss
08-17-2006, 11:44 AM
LOL

agreed...

Intelligences = SUM of ones own stupidity (or opinion)

or ones ability to follow a simple train of thought.........

texan279
08-17-2006, 11:45 AM
I'm going to have to take notes.... I don't remember where you stand on a couple of issues....

#1..... does preseason success mean anything?? Personally I believe it's usefull when evaluating talent.... Sage looking good in our preseason opener makes me want to see him play with the first team.... Delhomme's Preseason Success with NewOrleans has credibility in his ability to be a starting NFL QB....

#2... NFLE how much does that relate to the NFL..... personally, I think NCAA performance is more indicative of how the player will do in the NFL. Hence, Drew Henson's & Dave Ragone's success in NFLE shows me they have talent to play the game(which is what I knew when they came out of college)
I may be wrong, but again you seem to believe it adds to a guys credibility as an NFL Starter...

#3.... I've got to assume you believe we are "real solid" at the QB position??


look, I don't really want to argue this with you..... I usually end up dizzy, so let's try something else..

The sky is blue.......... your turn.

I am not arguing anything, just stating the fact that Delhomme had success in places before being signed by Carolina. You said Carolina took a chance on him after being a backup for 4 seasons but he did show success on some levels. Sage looked good but it's only one preseason game. Delhomme in 2 preseasons had a QB rating of over 110 and a 68 percent completion percentage. Sage has not really shown success on any level that I am aware of before coming here, and the little he has done in the NFL up to this point has been less than impressive. I dont't think success in the NFLE tranlsates to success in the NFL, but it shows something. DelHomme had success in the NFLE and some preseason games with the Saint's. Ragone and Henson had success in the NFLE, and Ragone is with his what 3rd team in less than two months? Henson is now what, the Cowboys #3 QB? Delhomme has been to a Super Bowl and an NFC Championship game in 3 season with Carolina. Delhomme has proved he can do it on the NFL level while the others have not is all I am saying.

thunderkyss
08-17-2006, 11:50 AM
I am not arguing anything, just stating the fact that Delhomme had success in places before being signed by Carolina. You said Carolina took a chance on him after being a backup for 4 seasons but he did show success on some levels. Sage looked good but it's only one preseason game. Delhomme in 2 preseasons had a QB rating of over 110 and a 68 percent completion percentage. Sage has not really shown success on any level that I am aware of before coming here, and what the little he has done in the NFL up to this point has been less than impressive. I dont't think success in the NFLE tranlsates to success in the NFL, but it shows something. DelHomme had success in the NFLE and some preseason games with the Saint's. Ragone and Henson had success in the NFLE, and Ragone is with his what 3rd team in less than two months? Henson is now what, the Cowboys #3 QB? Delhomme has been to a Super Bowl and an NFC Championship game in 3 season with Carolina. Delhomme has proved he can do it on the NFL level while the others have not is all I am saying.


where are you getting these preseason stats??

just asking.

All I'm saying, is that just because Sage has been a backup for six years, doesn't mean that he will only be a backup for the next six years. Surely you can agree with that.

texan279
08-17-2006, 11:57 AM
where are you getting these preseason stats??

just asking.

All I'm saying, is that just because Sage has been a backup for six years, doesn't mean that he will only be a backup for the next six years. Surely you can agree with that.

I am not saying that, but I am not ready to put in Sage as the starter because he had one good preseason game against 2nd and 3rd team guys on a beat up Kansas City team. I got the stats from wikipedia.

infantrycak
08-17-2006, 12:09 PM
Good lord--talk about a thread full of overanalysis and overhyping. Neither QB looked spectacular or bad. They walked out of the game with mediocre at best QB ratings--Carr 71.3 and Sage 66.4. Seems pretty silly IMO for folks to be acting like Carr looked like Aaron Brooks and Sage looked like Jay Cutler. They both played reasonably well with their units against the competition they faced.

thunderkyss
08-17-2006, 12:11 PM
I am not saying that, but I am not ready to put in Sage as the starter because he had one good preseason game against 2nd and 3rd team guys on a beat up Kansas City team. I got the stats from wikipedia.

we agree...... I haven't said otherwise.........

texan279
08-17-2006, 12:12 PM
Good lord--talk about a thread full of overanalysis and overhyping. Neither QB looked spectacular or bad. They walked out of the game with mediocre at best QB ratings--Carr 71.3 and Sage 66.4. Seems pretty silly IMO for folks to be acting like Carr looked like Aaron Brooks and Sage looked like Jay Cutler. They both played reasonably well with their units against the competition they faced.

And with that, the most logical, sensable post in the entire thread, this thread should be locked and the key thrown away...:hides:

Lucky
08-17-2006, 12:13 PM
Seems pretty silly IMO for folks to be acting like Carr looked like Aaron Brooks and Sage looked like Jay Cutler.
So you're implying that the Texans should have selected Jay Cutler #1?

infantrycak
08-17-2006, 12:14 PM
So you're implying that the Texans should have selected Jay Cutler #1?

Damn you Lucky. :hunter:

texan279
08-17-2006, 12:15 PM
So you're implying that the Texans should have selected Jay Cutler #1?

Here comes about the 18th turn this thread has taken...:chicken:

GP
08-17-2006, 12:22 PM
All I'm saying, is that just because Sage has been a backup for six years, doesn't mean that he will only be a backup for the next six years. Surely you can agree with that.

Oh, I see......

Well, then give David two more years until he reaches the six-year mark. If Sage has had six years to crack the starter position, and hasn't been able to, then give David two more years to show that he shouldn't be a starter.

This is what I talk about when I say people have it in for David for much more than just the "He isn't a good quarterback" theory.

You are blatantly saying that Sage has the potential to NOT be a backup for the next six years? Then why doesn't David have the potential to flourish as the starter that he was drafted to be? Technically, David has two more years according to your comments in that last post. Otherwise, what's the difference?

(This is where we get the "David was a number 1 overall...and he has had a long time to prove he's a starter...and Sage was on bad teams..." and a whole host of other half-truths that prop up the Sage constituents).

- Still ridiculous after all these posts

michaelm
08-17-2006, 12:58 PM
Oh, I see......

Well, then give David two more years until he reaches the six-year mark. If Sage has had six years to crack the starter position, and hasn't been able to, then give David two more years to show that he shouldn't be a starter.

This is what I talk about when I say people have it in for David for much more than just the "He isn't a good quarterback" theory.

You are blatantly saying that Sage has the potential to NOT be a backup for the next six years? Then why doesn't David have the potential to flourish as the starter that he was drafted to be? Technically, David has two more years according to your comments in that last post. Otherwise, what's the difference?

(This is where we get the "David was a number 1 overall...and he has had a long time to prove he's a starter...and Sage was on bad teams..." and a whole host of other half-truths that prop up the Sage constituents).

- Still ridiculous after all these posts



game, point, match... gpshafer_1976

swtbound07
08-17-2006, 01:03 PM
This is what david carr fans do when you suggest that another qb should get first team PRESEASON reps...21 pages of debate which i've stayed out of for the most part

chuckm
08-17-2006, 01:07 PM
This is what david carr fans do when you suggest that another qb should get first team PRESEASON reps...21 pages of debate which i've stayed out of for the most part



Yea you've stayed out of it .... like screaming fire in a crowded theater and standing in the corner and giggling as people climb all over each other to get out .....

GP
08-17-2006, 01:19 PM
Yea you've stayed out of it .... like screaming fire in a crowded theater and standing in the corner and giggling as people climb all over each other to get out .....

:cowboy1: :perfect10:

swtbound07
08-17-2006, 01:26 PM
Yea you've stayed out of it .... like screaming fire in a crowded theater and standing in the corner and giggling as people climb all over each other to get out .....


that was probably the most apt analogy used on this board in a long time.....rep for you!

GP
08-17-2006, 01:26 PM
This is what david carr fans do when you suggest that another qb should get first team PRESEASON reps...21 pages of debate which i've stayed out of for the most part

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:QhmhmC3xzWUAFM:http://uk.gizmodo.com/baby%2520crying.jpg

Life is so unfair, isn't it?