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View Full Version : Not to rekindle a dying fire, BUT....


David's Busted Carr
08-07-2006, 11:10 PM
Anyone think this team could REALLY use Reggie Bush right about now? I like Mario and think he'll be a fine player and all, but man how could our organization not know the severity of DD's injury?

How can they possibly expect DD to play a significant role this year when he can't even get through a SINGLE practice without pain????

And now we're stuck with Antowain Smith, Vernand Morency, and Wali Lundy? Are you kidding me? :crutch:

So lets get David Carr a new WR, a decent TE, few new lineman, but take away his main weapon... his RB.

Oh well, at least we should be drafting in the top 3 again and be able to draft Adrian Peterson in next years draft. That is unless another DT has a stellar workout....

swtbound07
08-07-2006, 11:12 PM
Anyone think this team could REALLY use Reggie Bush right about now? I like Mario and think he'll be a fine player and all, but man how could our organization not know the severity of DD's injury?

How can they possibly expect DD to play a significant role this year when he can't even get through a SINGLE practice without pain????

And now we're stuck with Antowain Smith, Vernand Morency, and Wali Lundy? Are you kidding me? :crutch:

So lets get David Carr a new WR, a decent TE, few new lineman, but take away his main weapon... his RB.

Oh well, at least we should be drafting in the top 3 again and be able to draft Adrian Peterson in next years draft. That is unless another DT has a stellar workout....


No. I dont think ANY team is better off with that 50 million dollar mistake. WE can't use him, didn't want him, and we are better off not having him. Let it GO

TexansLucky13
08-07-2006, 11:17 PM
I have officially labeled this thread as... dead.

Kaiser Toro
08-07-2006, 11:17 PM
Oh well, at least we should be drafting in the top 3 again and be able to draft Adrian Peterson in next years draft. That is unless another DT has a stellar workout....

A chilling vision of things to come. But there is always that whole idea of that is why they play the game. At this moment in time they have zero measureables in their NFL careers, it truly is a tabula rasa.

All we have here is one more sour thread on what was, rather than on what will be.

texflex513
08-07-2006, 11:17 PM
DD is my guy and i hope he can play alot this yr, but if he cant i trust we will be fine as far as our run game is concerned i believe in our as TEXANS CHICK said 'INSERT GENERIC RUNNING BACK HERE' offense. Any one of those guys can emerge and step up its gonna be a great yr for texans football. Sit back and enjoy the ride!!:redtowel:

TFL
08-07-2006, 11:22 PM
Quoted deleted insults


You are right in that reggie could of potential helped this team, but Mario will also potential help our team. Either one of them would of helped our team out.

TexanSam
08-07-2006, 11:25 PM
I wanted Reggie Bush over Mario. If I got to choose, I would still pick Reggie. I don't think that our running situation is as dire as you make it out to be though. Yeah, it seems that way, but in the system Kubiak is installing you don't need a great talent at running back to succeed. I think Morency, Smith, and whoever the 3rd back may be will get the job back. Don't forget, our defense was terrible last year too. The Texans will still be successful in running the ball I think. Besides, it's only the 2nd week of training camp. If Domanick Davis doesn't play in any preseason games, I'll be concerned, but I'm confident that even if he is out our running game will still be good.

mexican_texan
08-07-2006, 11:26 PM
Oh, we've had this discussion plenty...before the draft. It's still comes down to the same answer: NO, Kubiak's altered system will allow for many running backs to be successful, regardless of Heisman trophies. Besides, Reggie Bush is better suited at WR with his legs.

TexanBacker93
08-07-2006, 11:26 PM
I'll probably receive hate mail for this, but....

I've enjoyed watching DD over the past 3 years and I hope he gets back on the field. He wasn't Edgerrin James or Marshall Faulk coming out of college. He's had 3 decent years behind a less than stellar line. They weren't horrible at run blocking, but they weren't the Broncos line either. How many NFL backs run for 1000 yards in a season? In those 3 seasons 18, 18, and 16 backs ran for 1000 yards. It's no longer special to run for 1000 yards. Denver has proven time and time again that you can have a top flight running attack and a top flight offense without spending high draft picks on a running back. It's true that Denver rarely has anything higher than the mid 20s unless they make a trade, but even when doing that they don't grab a running back.

Domanick Davis isn't a great running back and I think with the improved line Lundy/Smith/Taylor or Rhodes will be able to step in and be successful.

HoustonFan
08-07-2006, 11:31 PM
Aaaah let it go. Who knows, Morency or Smith could end up stepping up big. Afterall, how many of us thought that DD would have performed like he has since he has been here?

AFD1717
08-07-2006, 11:33 PM
At 2-14, just about anybody could have helped this team. The trick is who helps this team the most and the powers that be decided that it was Mario Williams. If you disagree, that's fine but we have all heard this debate before. Only Father Time knows who is right and who is wrong and he's not letting any of us know for about five or ten more years. Let's drop it.

southtexan
08-08-2006, 12:41 AM
A chilling vision of things to come. But there is always that whole idea of that is why they play the game. At this moment in time they have zero measureables in their NFL careers, it truly is a tabula rasa.

All we have here is one more sour thread on what was, rather than on what will be.
KT, could you please explain what tabula rasa means. Latin? You know, inquiring minds want to know.

TexanFan881
08-08-2006, 12:48 AM
We've got Chris Taylor, we don't need Reggie Bush :muscles:

HJam72
08-08-2006, 12:49 AM
I'm gonna guess it means immeasurable or uncountable, as in rasa means none--tabulate nothing (or something like that). I could do a search or something, but I'm too lazy. :)

TexansLucky13
08-08-2006, 01:13 AM
We've got Chris Taylor, we don't need Reggie Bush :muscles:

I think that was the important part of that statement.

southtexan
08-08-2006, 01:14 AM
I'm gonna guess it means immeasurable or uncountable, as in rasa means none--tabulate nothing (or something like that). I could do a search or something, but I'm too lazy. :)
Thanks HJam72, In my spare time I metal detect in the mountains in Mexico, I find all kinds of relic's, Spanish colonial, French, American, British, buttons, coins, insignias, etc., most of the coins have a Latin legend so is always fun to do the research.

painekiller
08-08-2006, 01:16 AM
I'll take the 60 play a game DE with off the board measurables any day to a 15-20 carry RB that wasn't even the best pro RB on his team.

HJam72
08-08-2006, 01:25 AM
2 main reasons that I've decided that Mario was the right choice:

1) Typical running back: 4 good yrs. Typical DE: 12 good yrs.

2) Zone Blocking Scheme

Originally, I wanted a trade down. When I saw that it wasn't going to happen, I settled for Bush. Actually, I wanted Young for like one day and they suddenly gave Carr the big extension. I'm glad I didn't get my wish. Right now, I'm glad I didn't even get my first wish. Let's hope it stays that way.

southtexan
08-08-2006, 01:26 AM
Tabula rasa (Latin: scraped tablet or clean slate) refers to the epistemological thesis that individual human beings are born with no innate or built-in mental content, in a word, "blank", and that their entire resource of knowledge is built up gradually from their experiences and sensory perceptions of the outside world.

HJam72
08-08-2006, 01:28 AM
Why am I thinking about abortions right now? :rolleyes:

Scooter
08-08-2006, 01:51 AM
yall know that i never wanted reggie, and even with DD looking worse by the day, i still wouldnt want reggie as the first pick. i wanted d'brick, and i think he'd still be a solid choice if we didnt pick mario, but i'm content because we addressed one of our two biggest needs first. not only did we get a pass rush, but we also used 2 first day picks on the other hole - pass blocking. our first day could not have been more perfect IMO, even in hindsight. we have something that makes bush's value on this team plummet ... that something being gary kubiak & mike sherman. if you dont think that even antwain smith as our starter can bring a strong rushing game, just look at mike anderson. plus, we've got strong depth with lundy, morency, and taylor. hopefully DD will stay healthy finally though and we'll have our first 1500+ yard rusher.

tsip
08-08-2006, 02:16 AM
"It's no longer special to run for 1000 yards."

In the last 3 years, how many backs have gained over 3000yds rushing? Too, don't forget DD's receiving yds.

HJam72
08-08-2006, 03:17 AM
We do need to remember though that most of DD's reception yards have come on pass plays where the passes SHOULD have gone to a receiver for more yardage, if they had been open and Carr'd had more time (and the inclination) to find them. This doesn't place blame on DD, but it does take away some small amount of the accolades. Too many passes to DD is a bad thing, regardless of his skill in that particular area.

TK_Gamer
08-08-2006, 03:37 AM
I have watched hundreds of games in my life, one thing I allways see is open recievers that never got the ball, it just happens, usually for different reasons, not enough time, QB confidence, collapsing pocket screening part of the QB's vision, etc, etc. If the choice is between taking the sack, throwing into coverage, or taking the 6 yard dump off to the back. Ill take the 6 yards every time. and having a back (tail back or fullback/H-back) that can consistenly catch that last resort pass is a very valuable weapon. Priest holmes is a good back, the fact that he can catch the ball 5 times a game or more for positive yards is what makes him a great back.

Mysteryhunt
08-08-2006, 04:12 AM
bah, reggie is nothing special. no joke. wow he busted a couple big ones in the national spotlight. im pretty sure he had an above average supporting cast at usc. if he played at aTm he's a mid to late first rounder.

/live 3 miles from usc

281
08-08-2006, 05:35 AM
...let's just move on already

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 08:28 AM
Anyone think this team could REALLY use Reggie Bush right about now? I like Mario and think he'll be a fine player and all, but man how could our organization not know the severity of DD's injury?



We Needed Vince more than we need Reggie..... even considering our running back status as of now.

Especially considering the offensive genius we have leading the way.

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 08:32 AM
We do need to remember though that most of DD's reception yards have come on pass plays where the passes SHOULD have gone to a receiver for more yardage, if they had been open and Carr'd had more time (and the inclination) to find them. This doesn't place blame on DD, but it does take away some small amount of the accolades. Too many passes to DD is a bad thing, regardless of his skill in that particular area.
.
which is even more reason to not draft Reggie Bush....

with two #1 recievers, there will either not be enough balls for Reggie, or we would lose the advantage of having an AJ & Moulds on the same team.

Htownsportsfan
08-08-2006, 09:30 AM
Denver just named an undrafted free agent Mike Bell #1 on their depth chart. Keep in mind while Denver does have more depth and talent at some of positions Kubiak is a disciple of Shanahans zone blocking scheme Those guys just donít believe they need a high profile back! Are they right? So far Shanahan has been, only time will tell with Kubiak!

Bearfan Blue and Orange
08-08-2006, 09:39 AM
I'll probably receive hate mail for this, but....

I've enjoyed watching DD over the past 3 years and I hope he gets back on the field. He wasn't Edgerrin James or Marshall Faulk coming out of college. He's had 3 decent years behind a less than stellar line. They weren't horrible at run blocking, but they weren't the Broncos line either. How many NFL backs run for 1000 yards in a season? In those 3 seasons 18, 18, and 16 backs ran for 1000 yards. It's no longer special to run for 1000 yards. Denver has proven time and time again that you can have a top flight running attack and a top flight offense without spending high draft picks on a running back. It's true that Denver rarely has anything higher than the mid 20s unless they make a trade, but even when doing that they don't grab a running back.

Domanick Davis isn't a great running back and I think with the improved line Lundy/Smith/Taylor or Rhodes will be able to step in and be successful.

NO HATE MAIL HERE... you are dead on. Everyone is getting so excited about Bush. Get excited about YOUR team!!! Mario Williams will make much more an impact to the players around him immediately versus a struggling offense with a great "athlete" (notice I did not say RB).

This is just my opinion, Bush is going to be hurt this year for one reason. he is not DOMINANT in one position. A RB trains to be a RB, a WR trains to be a WR, a DE trains to be a DE (I mean their body and endurance).

The only reason I will be watching the first few saints this season is to see who in the NFL puts that first monster hit on him and welcomes him to the NFL.

Kaiser Toro
08-08-2006, 09:40 AM
David Carr is paid well, but not the most important player on this team in my opinion, nor is his unit the most important to our long term success. DC is a role player as his statistics over 4 years will bear that out. Moreover, we are old and inexperienced, at position/technique, on the OL, specifically from G to G.

If Carr can manage the offense ala a Troy Aikman I will be happy as the day is long. I just do not know if he has that in him whether it was his Fresno days or his NFL career. Big arm, tough, athletic for the position, community guy, etc are all great characteristics that DC has, but not always needed to manage the game.

If he can just put up his career numbers, in the NFL this year, in this style of offense and our defense has the incremental gains that we expect based off of our investment, with players playing in their natural position in an attacking style defense, everyone wins.

2004 was his career year and we won 7 games. Just get us there and let the other 52 do their jobs and we will be on our way.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
08-08-2006, 09:43 AM
We Needed Vince more than we need Reggie..... even considering our running back status as of now.

Especially considering the offensive genius we have leading the way.


That is like saying we needed Young more than Mario... NOT!!!

Having a new scheme you need to give your QB a chance to prove what he has or does not have. Neither Bush nor Young would get you to the playoffs.

DEFENSE WINS SUPERBOWLS!!! no matter how you look at it. The Bears went to the playoffs 2 times recently with a CRAP offense, but a top tier defense. All you need with a top defense is an offense that can score 14-17 points a game.

HJam72
08-08-2006, 09:47 AM
I have watched hundreds of games in my life, one thing I allways see is open recievers that never got the ball, it just happens, usually for different reasons, not enough time, QB confidence, collapsing pocket screening part of the QB's vision, etc, etc. If the choice is between taking the sack, throwing into coverage, or taking the 6 yard dump off to the back. Ill take the 6 yards every time. and having a back (tail back or fullback/H-back) that can consistenly catch that last resort pass is a very valuable weapon. Priest holmes is a good back, the fact that he can catch the ball 5 times a game or more for positive yards is what makes him a great back.

Oh, I agree, but this particular team has treated DD like the only receiver on the field at times, which is really bad. Some of that was receivers not getting open, some was Carr's fault, and quite a bit was probably lack of protection. I don't want to over-credit DD for being on a team that over-utilized his receiving talent because of a lack of success in other areas that shouldn't have existed, but it is certainly true that we would've been in even worse shape without him. 6 yds. is great, but not when it's 3rd and 15.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 09:52 AM
bah, reggie is nothing special. no joke. wow he busted a couple big ones in the national spotlight. im pretty sure he had an above average supporting cast at usc. if he played at aTm he's a mid to late first rounder.

/live 3 miles from usc


/\ My vote for worst post of the summer.

HJam72
08-08-2006, 10:06 AM
/\ My vote for worst post of the summer.

Me too. Vince Young sucks. :tease:

TexanBacker93
08-08-2006, 10:19 AM
If an offense is geared to include the running back as a main receiver I think it's fine that the running back gets a lot of receptions. Look at Tomlinson with over 100 catches a few years ago or Faulk with over 1000 yards receiving. These are products of the systems set to utilize their players talents. Davis is a good receiver out of the backfield. Over the past 3 years he has averaged 400 yards receiving, but his receiving touches came more off of dumps and safety valves. It still counts the same in the stat column, but I'd rather them get him the ball on designed plays in the flow of the offense rather than dinks and dunks.

As for how many running backs have averaged 1000 yards the last 3 seasons:
Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Clinton Portis, Edgerrin James, LaDanian Tomlinson, Rudi Johnson, Warrick Dunn, Domanick Davis, Fred Taylor, Ricky Williams (with or without counting the hiatus year), and Curtis Martin. So, that's only 12 backs that have averaged 1000 over the last 3. A few others of note, though.

Corey Dillon averaged 970 over the last 3, but is well over 1000/ season as a pro.
Thomas Jones averaged 970 over the last 3
Larry Johnson averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play much in that 1st year.
Willis McGahee averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play in the 1st year.
Reuben Droughns averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play much before that.
There are newcomers that haven't played 3 years yet: Cadillac Williams, Steven Jackson, Willie Parker, Julius Jones, Kevin Jones, and Ronnie Brown.

If it weren't for the sharing of duties that a lot of teams are going towards you'd see 20 backs with over 1000 yards. That's why I said it wasn't "special" anymore to get 1000 yards.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 10:26 AM
Me too. Vince Young sucks. :tease:



oops, it double posted.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 10:26 AM
Me too. Vince Young sucks. :tease:



Oh I can't wait. The next 10+ years are going to be great. :drool:

titan hater
08-08-2006, 10:28 AM
Tabula rasa (Latin: scraped tablet or clean slate) refers to the epistemological thesis that individual human beings are born with no innate or built-in mental content, in a word, "blank", and that their entire resource of knowledge is built up gradually from their experiences and sensory perceptions of the outside world.

I am getting a headache because you have caused me to think back to High School Latin...Thanks alot southtexan! Hope all is well in the valley!!!

Porky
08-08-2006, 10:41 AM
/\ My vote for worst post of the summer.

If it's not the worst, it's definately in the top 10. I have been a Reggie backer all along. I felt that in Kubes offense, he would give opposing defenses nightmares. I don't think he will be as good in the Saints offense as here, but he will still be a difference maker. I really felt he would have completed the offense. As it stands, we now are weak at RB. I think people are underestimating the need to have a legit back. Sure, they have gotten good results with nobody's, but I think you guys do a disservice to those RB's when you act like Mother Theresa could gain 1000 yards in this offense. First off, we are not Denver! Get that thru your head, and let it sink in. There is a lot of over optisism around here, that I think is going to cause a lot of panic attacks over the next few weeks when people realize we are not Denver.

FILO_girl
08-08-2006, 10:41 AM
Why is it that some can't let sleeping dogs lie?

I think we need to take the posters who can't quit RB and...they have to wear the scarlet R for an avatar. Your pining for the guy is getting very embarassing!

Let Kubiak work his magic. I know, we are gunshy from the last regime but give the guy a chance to prove himself. Quit knocking his pick and lets see what he can do for us. :)

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 10:45 AM
Why is it that some can't let sleeping dogs lie?

I think we need to take the posters who can't quit RB and...they have to wear the scarlet R for an avatar. Your pining for the guy is getting very embarassing!

Let Kubiak work his magic. I know, we are gunshy from the last regime but give the guy a chance to prove himself. Quit knocking his pick and lets see what he can do for us. :)


Well a lot of people are going to be wrong (Bush or Williams people) and it's going to be verrrry interesting at the end of this year.

e.g. Bush has a Rookie of the Year type season or Mario has a ROTY type season.

Coach C.
08-08-2006, 10:55 AM
Not one person will be wrong this year. Bush is what he is and Mario is what he is. So three years from now we can see who was wrong. Mario could get 11 sacks this year and maybe make the pro-bowl if we shock some people. Similar to how Shawne Merrimen did last year. And Bush in limited carries could account for 1400 total yds. Does that make any of them a greater success. I will say one is a above another as an NFL player by who puts up the most Ws.

FILO_girl
08-08-2006, 10:57 AM
Well a lot of people are going to be wrong (Bush or Williams people) and it's going to be verrrry interesting at the end of this year.

e.g. Bush has a Rookie of the Year type season or Mario has a ROTY type season.

I expect this :homer: post from a tack fan. Don't agree with you, but it is the expected response. :cool:

I don't expect either to have a break out season, too much emphasis is put on this. Both have alot to learn before being 'all that and a bag of chips'. Even sliced bread took a couple years to catch on.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
08-08-2006, 10:59 AM
Here is a thought.... ( A far reach)

What if...
4-5 years from now, Mario has a great year and he is extended for 7-8 more years.

Bush has good years, but not great and the Texans sign him to a 2-3 year deal

Young struggles, but is better than Carr has been and they sign him to a 3-year deal.

Would that make the critics heads spin or what!!!

Sorry, I am bored!!

Bearfan Blue and Orange
08-08-2006, 11:01 AM
Well a lot of people are going to be wrong (Bush or Williams people) and it's going to be verrrry interesting at the end of this year.

e.g. Bush has a Rookie of the Year type season or Mario has a ROTY type season.

Wouldn't you want Young to have a ROTY type season, afterall it is your team!!!

This I think shows that many other teams fans have too much time on their hands and come and bash the Texans when subconsciously he is bashing his own team by eliminating the QB they have dreamed of for so long and do not want him to have a ROTY season.

TheCD
08-08-2006, 11:15 AM
I've said it once and I'll say it again...Kubiak didn't want Bush because he is everything that contradicts our new running game. We have a one-cut and go system. Do you really think Reggie Bush would be content with just one cut?

Porky
08-08-2006, 11:24 AM
I've said it once and I'll say it again...Kubiak didn't want Bush because he is everything that contradicts our new running game. We have a one-cut and go system. Do you really think Reggie Bush would be content with just one cut?

Yes, it's called coaching. Besides that, USC ran a lot of zone stuff anyway.

bigTEXan8
08-08-2006, 11:27 AM
I've said it once and I'll say it again...Kubiak didn't want Bush because he is everything that contradicts our new running game. We have a one-cut and go system. Do you really think Reggie Bush would be content with just one cut?

I agree and here's why. Usually, after that one-cute, you get hit. I don't see Bush getting hit and bouncing off to easily. I personally think Bush is going to have a rude awakening when he plays his first NFL game. D in the pros are much quicker, and much smarter. I don't see him proving to be as big of a factor as people and analysts say. I think M. Williams is better fit for the pros. JMO :thankyou:

Doug
08-08-2006, 11:27 AM
If an offense is geared to include the running back as a main receiver I think it's fine that the running back gets a lot of receptions. Look at Tomlinson with over 100 catches a few years ago or Faulk with over 1000 yards receiving. These are products of the systems set to utilize their players talents. Davis is a good receiver out of the backfield. Over the past 3 years he has averaged 400 yards receiving, but his receiving touches came more off of dumps and safety valves. It still counts the same in the stat column, but I'd rather them get him the ball on designed plays in the flow of the offense rather than dinks and dunks.

As for how many running backs have averaged 1000 yards the last 3 seasons:
Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Clinton Portis, Edgerrin James, LaDanian Tomlinson, Rudi Johnson, Warrick Dunn, Domanick Davis, Fred Taylor, Ricky Williams (with or without counting the hiatus year), and Curtis Martin. So, that's only 12 backs that have averaged 1000 over the last 3. A few others of note, though.

Corey Dillon averaged 970 over the last 3, but is well over 1000/ season as a pro.
Thomas Jones averaged 970 over the last 3
Larry Johnson averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play much in that 1st year.
Willis McGahee averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play in the 1st year.
Reuben Droughns averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play much before that.
There are newcomers that haven't played 3 years yet: Cadillac Williams, Steven Jackson, Willie Parker, Julius Jones, Kevin Jones, and Ronnie Brown.

If it weren't for the sharing of duties that a lot of teams are going towards you'd see 20 backs with over 1000 yards. That's why I said it wasn't "special" anymore to get 1000 yards.

Just curious.......How many of the running backs listed were a second day draft pick?

Hookem Horns
08-08-2006, 11:28 AM
How would drafting a passing down back / average punt returner help our situation with DD? We would still need a running back that could play on running downs and more importantly run between the tackles. Your argument would have more merit if you were talking about taking a RB in the 2nd round, and even there we are better off with Ryans. Defense wins folks.

bigTEXan8
08-08-2006, 11:31 AM
How would drafting a passing down back / average punt returner help our situation with DD? We would still need a running back that could play on running downs and more importantly run between the tackles. Your argument would have more merit if you were talking about taking a RB in the 2nd round, and even there we are better off with Ryans. Defense wins folks.

Concur...Ryans with the second pick was a solid one.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 11:37 AM
Wouldn't you want Young to have a ROTY type season, afterall it is your team!!!

This I think shows that many other teams fans have too much time on their hands and come and bash the Texans when subconsciously he is bashing his own team by eliminating the QB they have dreamed of for so long and do not want him to have a ROTY season.


OK we are obviously on two different pages here... let me explain my post further


You have three situations:

1. Mario Williams turns into a GREAT player and Reggie Bush is average/not good ... resulting in all of the people who said "Mario Williams was the better choice" being right, therefore saying "told you so!" to the "Reggie Bush People"

2. Reggie Bush turns out to be everything he was hyped up to be and Mario Williams turns out to be mediocre/courtney brown .... all of the Reggie Bush People will be like "told you SO!!!"

3. Both of the turn out to be perennial pro bowlers and no one says anything. (or vice versa)



Now, how that is bashing the Texans I don't know. My original post might have been a little unclear, but I wasn't bashing the Texans. I'm just saying that there is going to be a lot of "Told you so!" from either the "Mario Williams People" or the "Reggie Bush People"

TexanFanInCC
08-08-2006, 11:38 AM
No. I dont think ANY team is better off with that 50 million dollar mistake. WE can't use him, didn't want him, and we are better off not having him. Let it GO

amen. besides why do we need him? zone blocking will allow just about any running back with above average vision to have success. besides, u cant beat the colts in a shootout. u need to pressure manning like the chargers did in order to beat him. defense wins games...and lombardi's:trophy:

HJam72
08-08-2006, 11:39 AM
Here is my prediction:

There will be a lot of, "Told you so!" from all three sides for a very long time. Get used to it, people.

Oh, and, "I told you so!" :)

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 11:46 AM
We Needed Vince more than we need Reggie..... even considering our running back status as of now.

Especially considering the offensive genius we have leading the way.

C'mon, TK. We needed Vince more? Get off his jock, it's not becoming of you. These threads always degradate into a Vince/Reggie Carr sucks free-for-all.

Say it with me, now:

1.) Vince is a Titan.
2.) Reggie is a Saint.
3.) We didn't need either of them.

TexanBacker93
08-08-2006, 11:47 AM
Just curious.......How many of the running backs listed were a second day draft pick?


I believe just Davis and Rudi Johnson.

Of those that are just starting out, I think Willie Parker was undrafted.

Doug
08-08-2006, 11:49 AM
DD was drafted as depth and help on special teams from the fifth round (Correct me if I'm wrong on his draft status). He turned out to be a very nice surprise not only for the team but the fans. The majority of the other rb's on your list were drafted (I would think) with the intentions to start right away and with a first day pick. To alot of people on this board DD is not a great running back, he is average. To me he is a great running back because he was able to put up average numbers on a below average team, (well below average line), and always put the team before himself. In the past 3 years he has been a high point for this team when positives are far and in between.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
08-08-2006, 11:49 AM
How would drafting a passing down back / average punt returner help our situation with DD? We would still need a running back that could play on running downs and more importantly run between the tackles. Your argument would have more merit if you were talking about taking a RB in the 2nd round, and even there we are better off with Ryans. Defense wins folks.


FINALLY an Educated football fan, not just a homer!!!

swtbound07
08-08-2006, 11:51 AM
C'mon, TK. We needed Vince more? Get off his jock, it's not becoming of you. These threads always degradate into a Vince/Reggie Carr sucks free-for-all.

Say it with me, now:

1.) Vince is a Titan.
2.) Reggie is a Saint.
3.) We didn't need either of them.


THAT is not true.

Vinny
08-08-2006, 11:59 AM
:backsout: I've been out for the last two days (for the most part)...and I'm kinda scared to go back and read this thread from the start. Wish me luck!

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 12:00 PM
THAT is not true.

And why is that, SWT?

Did we need Vince Young? Do you believe we were going to draft Vince, start him, and start over?

Or was it Bush? Did we need him? A back, who while talented, and definitely exciting to watch, will probably not be the all-purpose go-to guy in the NFL?

Which one? Why did we need one of the two? Justify your opinion, so we can understand.

We have a QB. We have several RB's. Most importantly, we have a system in place now, with a Coach who knows how to win.

Runner
08-08-2006, 12:01 PM
:backsout: I've been out for the last two days (for the most part)...and I'm kinda scared to go back and read this thread from the start. Wish me luck!

Good news! This isn't the worst one.

Brandon420tx
08-08-2006, 12:01 PM
I read the first 9 words of this thread and then stopped :backsout:

Bearfan Blue and Orange
08-08-2006, 12:08 PM
THAT is not true.
You are right, the last one should say WE NEEDED MARIO MORE!!!

bulldawgtexan
08-08-2006, 12:18 PM
Reggie gets hit hard just once, and that kid is gonna be on the IR for the rest of the year.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 12:20 PM
You are right, the last one should say WE NEEDED MARIO MORE!!!

Exactly. Thanks!

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 12:27 PM
That is like saying we needed Young more than Mario... NOT!!!

Having a new scheme you need to give your QB a chance to prove what he has or does not have. Neither Bush nor Young would get you to the playoffs.

DEFENSE WINS SUPERBOWLS!!! no matter how you look at it. The Bears went to the playoffs 2 times recently with a CRAP offense, but a top tier defense. All you need with a top defense is an offense that can score 14-17 points a game.

#1, it is not like saying the same thing... we had a definite need at DE...... no need at all, at RB..... we had a starter, a veteran backup, and young promising prospect.

At defensive end, we had a two guys who played LB last year, and another that played tackle.

& if I recall correctly, the St.Louis Rams made it to the SuperBowl twice, with a shoddy defense at best........ all you need with a potent offense, is a team that can hold the offense under 24 points....

there's a little tongue and cheek there..... you can get to & win a SuperBowl in many different ways.... there is no set answer

besides...... most of the "knowledgable" people on this board(I'm not one of them) think playoffs in '06 is unrealistic......

South Texan
08-08-2006, 12:28 PM
Lets's start with this premise: Young, Bush, and Mario all live up the the hype and become Hall of Famers.

The new system doesn't need great running backs, it makes running backs great. Bush was not what we needed the most.

With the the leadership skills of the past staff (yeah, I know, what leadership skills?) we don't really know what we have with Carr. But from the vids on training camp I have seen so far, he is putting the short passes on the money (I think that will be our bread and butter this year) and has tossed some good long balls too. With the pickup of Spencer (Mr. Attitude), T-Rex (Winston), Moulds, Flanagan, and some good TE's Kubiak will make Carr a good QB this year. Young was not what we needed most.

Face it. Last year, for whatever reason, our defense didn't get-r-done. I really think trying to convert Peek and Babin to LB's instead of what they have shown they can do was a huge mistake. Our DE's have real potential to wreak havoc this year. Having to account for them will open up things for the middle of the line (even TJ may shine this year) and take pressure off the DB's. The biggest factor in the D this year? Mario... he is what we needed most.

I can't stop this rant without mentioning DeMeco... he looks like he is going to be really special. From all I am seeing and hearing, he can play any of the LB spots and make an impact. So I have to add, we really needed him too.

If you are getting the impression I am the most excited I have been about the Texans since their first season, well, you are right. :redtowel:

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 12:29 PM
Oh, I agree, but this particular team has treated DD like the only receiver on the field at times, which is really bad. Some of that was receivers not getting open, some was Carr's fault, and quite a bit was probably lack of protection. I don't want to over-credit DD for being on a team that over-utilized his receiving talent because of a lack of success in other areas that shouldn't have existed, but it is certainly true that we would've been in even worse shape without him. 6 yds. is great, but not when it's 3rd and 15.


I understand your point, but bottom line......... when asked to produce....... he produced.

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 12:33 PM
If an offense is geared to include the running back as a main receiver I think it's fine that the running back gets a lot of receptions. Look at Tomlinson with over 100 catches a few years ago or Faulk with over 1000 yards receiving. These are products of the systems set to utilize their players talents. Davis is a good receiver out of the backfield. Over the past 3 years he has averaged 400 yards receiving, but his receiving touches came more off of dumps and safety valves. It still counts the same in the stat column, but I'd rather them get him the ball on designed plays in the flow of the offense rather than dinks and dunks.

As for how many running backs have averaged 1000 yards the last 3 seasons:
Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Clinton Portis, Edgerrin James, LaDanian Tomlinson, Rudi Johnson, Warrick Dunn, Domanick Davis, Fred Taylor, Ricky Williams (with or without counting the hiatus year), and Curtis Martin. So, that's only 12 backs that have averaged 1000 over the last 3. A few others of note, though.

Corey Dillon averaged 970 over the last 3, but is well over 1000/ season as a pro.
Thomas Jones averaged 970 over the last 3
Larry Johnson averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play much in that 1st year.
Willis McGahee averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play in the 1st year.
Reuben Droughns averaged over 1000 over the last 2, but didn't play much before that.
There are newcomers that haven't played 3 years yet: Cadillac Williams, Steven Jackson, Willie Parker, Julius Jones, Kevin Jones, and Ronnie Brown.

If it weren't for the sharing of duties that a lot of teams are going towards you'd see 20 backs with over 1000 yards. That's why I said it wasn't "special" anymore to get 1000 yards.


Good points....... of the names you've mentioned, who do you think will never be great, and who was on a team as Bad as DD has been on in the last 3 years??

All I'm saying, is the list you created, is a pretty good list to be on.

TexansLucky13
08-08-2006, 12:46 PM
I understand your point, but bottom line......... when asked to produce....... he produced.

Strangely, I agree with you about the RB situation. Reggie was never a need. He was someone who we wanted.... in the end he is an extraordinary back, but it wasn't the way that Kubiak wanted to spend our first pick.

thunderkyss, the only thing I disagree with you about is your argument that you don't necessarily need a good defense to win the SB. Sure, there have been freak instances where a low rated defense manages to make it to the SB due to a high rated offense. But that is a rarity. If you look at most SBs (especially between 75-85) you will see that the huge majority of SB teams were there because they had an exceptional defense.

Of course, since this has boiled down to yet another RB v VY v Mario thread, I understand Vinnys reluctance to read any of it.

This is how it ended up.

Reggie Bush was a want, but definitely not a need. I will argue that, in depth, any day.

Vince Young was a huge want (taken the mere number of Longhorn fans on here), but once again.... NOT a need. Our QB situation is as stable as our RB situation. It's funny how I stumble across so many rankings where David Carr is in the top 25. :hmmm:

Mario was a need. Our DE situation was pitiful! Kubiak had grande cojones to make the move he did, and we are fortunate to have someone with a little foresight.

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 12:46 PM
C'mon, TK. We needed Vince more? Get off his jock, it's not becoming of you. These threads always degradate into a Vince/Reggie Carr sucks free-for-all.

Say it with me, now:

1.) Vince is a Titan.
2.) Reggie is a Saint.
3.) We didn't need either of them.

Get over yourself.... the whole post read..... we didn't need Vince...... and we didn't need Reggie......

HJam72
08-08-2006, 01:07 PM
I'm not saying anything!!!!!!!!!!

See, now that's how you get positive reps! :)

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 01:11 PM
Get over yourself.... the whole post read..... we didn't need Vince...... and we didn't need Reggie......

Go back and read your post, #28. Maybe you just thought the post said that?

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 01:27 PM
Go back and read your post, #28. Maybe you just thought the post said that?

touche......... i'm thinking about another post in another thread....... same argument.....

:shoot:

swtbound07
08-08-2006, 02:22 PM
And why is that, SWT?

Did we need Vince Young? Do you believe we were going to draft Vince, start him, and start over?

Or was it Bush? Did we need him? A back, who while talented, and definitely exciting to watch, will probably not be the all-purpose go-to guy in the NFL?

Which one? Why did we need one of the two? Justify your opinion, so we can understand.

We have a QB. We have several RB's. Most importantly, we have a system in place now, with a Coach who knows how to win.

we ARE starting over...I don't know if you've noticed or not...we pretty much removed everyone who could remotely be accountable for last year except mr. Carr. Yes I think we did and DO need vince young....if we are supposed to buy the arguement that this is a clean slate for carr and he is starting over in a new system, what exactly is the difference? For all intents and purposes we are starting a banged up Carr with a rookie mentality. We didn't need reggie, but we did and do need a quarterback...I just hope rosenfels has what it takes to get it done.

texan279
08-08-2006, 02:26 PM
we ARE starting over...I don't know if you've noticed or not...we pretty much removed everyone who could remotely be accountable for last year except mr. Carr. Yes I think we did and DO need vince young....if we are supposed to buy the arguement that this is a clean slate for carr and he is starting over in a new system, what exactly is the difference? For all intents and purposes we are starting a banged up Carr with a rookie mentality. We didn't need reggie, but we did and do need a quarterback...I just hope rosenfels has what it takes to get it done.

You say you want Sage to start then say you "HOPE he has what it takes to get it done"? :hmmm: Sounds to me like you just don't like Carr for whatever reason and would put anyone in the QB spot. If Sage was that good he would be starting somewhere in the NFL.

trane
08-08-2006, 02:49 PM
Anyone think this team could REALLY use Reggie Bush right about now? I like Mario and think he'll be a fine player and all, but man how could our organization not know the severity of DD's injury?

I don't think you can justify not drafting Reggie by DD's injury. Who knows...Reggie may wind up injured too (I think he will be often injured in his career). IMO, the problem with DD's injury is that all of the other backs are still unknown and unproven at this point and it is hard to gauge how effective they will be. Antwain Smith is a solid back but you don't know exactly what he has left. Morency showed flashes that he is at least good enough to make the team. The rest...who knows. I would have liked to see them get another back that has proven that he can play in this league or at least in this offense.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 02:55 PM
we ARE starting over...I don't know if you've noticed or not...we pretty much removed everyone who could remotely be accountable for last year except mr. Carr. Yes I think we did and DO need vince young....if we are supposed to buy the arguement that this is a clean slate for carr and he is starting over in a new system, what exactly is the difference? For all intents and purposes we are starting a banged up Carr with a rookie mentality. We didn't need reggie, but we did and do need a quarterback...I just hope rosenfels has what it takes to get it done.


We're starting over with a QB who has shown signs of being able to play. We still have the core players, and while I'm not 100 percent convinced he isn't damaged, I do think he has what it takes. I've watched Kubiak settle down QB's for quite a while now, and I believe we will see a difference this year.

Drafting Vince Young would have been a mistake. Making a decision to draft him would have been throwing a bone to some fans. Thankfully, the team didn't bow down to the pressure. Do you really think the Texans would have started Vince on Game Day 1? Did you go to UT?

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 02:59 PM
we ARE starting over...I don't know if you've noticed or not...we pretty much removed everyone who could remotely be accountable for last year except mr. Carr. Yes I think we did and DO need vince young....if we are supposed to buy the arguement that this is a clean slate for carr and he is starting over in a new system, what exactly is the difference? For all intents and purposes we are starting a banged up Carr with a rookie mentality. We didn't need reggie, but we did and do need a quarterback...I just hope rosenfels has what it takes to get it done.

And why not Leinart, over Young, if we needed a QB? Leinart appears to the most NFL ready. But we shall see... I just hope Vince is more than Vick, or McNair, or [insert name here].

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 03:04 PM
And why not Leinart, over Young, if we needed a QB? Leinart appears to the most NFL ready. But we shall see... I just hope Vince is more than Vick, or McNair, or [insert name here].


Because Leinart is a loser. Leinart had the best O-line, the best RB, the best receiving core in the country to help him out. Vince Young won the National Title pretty much on his own. I'm a huge college football fan and i could only name two receivers on Texas' roster last year (thomas and sweed).

Vince is a winner and does it himself. He's a playmaker. And not to mention he is a great human being who isn't in it mainly for the money. Leinart is a hollywood pretty boy who is in it for the money (e.g. HE IS STILL HOLDING OUT)

Leinart is a tool. Bottom line.

Answer your question?

texan279
08-08-2006, 03:06 PM
Because Leinart is a loser. Leinart had the best O-line, the best RB, the best receiving core in the country to help him out. Vince Young won the National Title pretty much on his own. I'm a huge college football fan and i could only name two receivers on Texas' roster last year (thomas and sweed).

Vince is a winner and does it himself. He's a playmaker. And not to mention he is a great human being who isn't in it mainly for the money. Leinart is a hollywood pretty boy who is in it for the money (e.g. HE IS STILL HOLDING OUT)

Leinart is a tool. Bottom line.

Answer your question?

No one guy on any football team does it himself, football is a team sport, it takes a team to win.

blockhead83
08-08-2006, 03:07 PM
Yea Vince Young did it all on his lonesome, that defense didn't help at all. Disregard UT's sucky running back's too.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 03:11 PM
Because Leinart is a loser. Leinart had the best O-line, the best RB, the best receiving core in the country to help him out. Vince Young won the National Title pretty much on his own. I'm a huge college football fan and i could only name two receivers on Texas' roster last year (thomas and sweed).

Vince is a winner and does it himself. He's a playmaker. And not to mention he is a great human being who isn't in it mainly for the money. Leinart is a hollywood pretty boy who is in it for the money (e.g. HE IS STILL HOLDING OUT)

Leinart is a tool. Bottom line.

Answer your question?
Leinart the hollywood pretty boy.If I'm not mistaken it was VY the did a show for BET TV. And by the way Leinart will more than likely have longer life in the NFL than your chosen player making it happen all by his self.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 03:17 PM
Because Leinart is a loser. Leinart had the best O-line, the best RB, the best receiving core in the country to help him out. Vince Young won the National Title pretty much on his own. I'm a huge college football fan and i could only name two receivers on Texas' roster last year (thomas and sweed).

Vince is a winner and does it himself. He's a playmaker. And not to mention he is a great human being who isn't in it mainly for the money. Leinart is a hollywood pretty boy who is in it for the money (e.g. HE IS STILL HOLDING OUT)

Leinart is a tool. Bottom line.

Answer your question?

You know... The Titans and the dumbed-down offense they put in for McNair just might be a good fit after-all.

He's not the second coming; he's a Rookie QB with talent... nothing more, nothing less until he proves his worth in the NFL.

Vince Young won the National Title pretty much on his own.

I'm sure Mack Brown agrees with you, along with the rest of the Longhorns.

Say... How is Bud Adams?

:cowboy1:

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 03:26 PM
Of course he didn't literally win the NC by himeself. You need someone to block for you and catch the balls you throw, but if anyone in the history of college sports ever won a championship and was far and away the deciding factor, it's Vince Young. Michael Jordan didn't win all those championships by himself, but damn was he wasn't the deciding factor. Same thing here.

Anyone who watched the Rose Bowl last year knows that. The scoring TD he made sums up UTs football season: Vince Young winning the game.

Argue with this, I dare you:

Vince Young is the first and only player in NCAA I-A history to pass for 3,000 yards and rush for 1,000 yards in the same season. No other player has even reached the 2,500/1,000 mark in a season.

He passed for 44 touchdowns (No. 4 in UT history) while rushing for 3,127 yards (No. 1 on UT's all-time quarterback rushing list/No. 5 on UT's all-time list) and 37 touchdowns (No. 4 on UT's all-time rushing touchdowns list/T-No. 1 among quarterbacks).

In the 2006 NCAA national championship game, he completed 30 of 40 passes for 267 yards and carried the ball 19 times for 200 yards and 3 rushing touchdowns. Those 200 rushing yards set a Bowl game rushing record by a QB. He was named Rose Bowl MVP for the second time in his career. UT beat USC by the score of 41 to 38 and Vince Young ran in the winning touchdown. In this game, UT ended USC's 34-game win streak. Young's 467 total yards set a new Rose Bowl record

2nd place in the Heisman voting, 2005 Maxwell Award (best college football player)

His .938 winning percentage as a starting quarterback ranks sixth best in NCAA Division I football history.

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 03:26 PM
We're starting over with a QB who has shown signs of being able to play. We still have the core players, and while I'm not 100 percent convinced he isn't damaged, I do think he has what it takes. I've watched Kubiak settle down QB's for quite a while now, and I believe we will see a difference this year.

Drafting Vince Young would have been a mistake. Making a decision to draft him would have been throwing a bone to some fans. Thankfully, the team didn't bow down to the pressure. Do you really think the Texans would have started Vince on Game Day 1? Did you go to UT?

watching the Titans, Vince will probably start early in '06, if not Week1.

And why not Leinart, over Young, if we needed a QB? Leinart appears to the most NFL ready. But we shall see... I just hope Vince is more than Vick, or McNair, or [insert name here].

Has Lienart made it to camp yet??

No one guy on any football team does it himself, football is a team sport, it takes a team to win.

well Vince carried the Lion's share...

Bearfan Blue and Orange
08-08-2006, 03:29 PM
You say you want Sage to start then say you "HOPE he has what it takes to get it done"? :hmmm: Sounds to me like you just don't like Carr for whatever reason and would put anyone in the QB spot. If Sage was that good he would be starting somewhere in the NFL.


BINGO

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 03:35 PM
Of course he didn't literally win the NC by himeself. You need someone to block for you and catch the balls you throw, but if anyone in the history of college sports ever won a championship and was far and away the deciding factor, it's Vince Young. Michael Jordan didn't win all those championships by himself, but damn was he wasn't the deciding factor. Same thing here.

Anyone who watched the Rose Bowl last year knows that. The scoring TD he made sums up UTs football season: Vince Young winning the game.

Argue with this, I dare you:

Vince Young is the first and only player in NCAA I-A history to pass for 3,000 yards and rush for 1,000 yards in the same season. No other player has even reached the 2,500/1,000 mark in a season.

He passed for 44 touchdowns (No. 4 in UT history) while rushing for 3,127 yards (No. 1 on UT's all-time quarterback rushing list/No. 5 on UT's all-time list) and 37 touchdowns (No. 4 on UT's all-time rushing touchdowns list/T-No. 1 among quarterbacks).

In the 2006 NCAA national championship game, he completed 30 of 40 passes for 267 yards and carried the ball 19 times for 200 yards and 3 rushing touchdowns. Those 200 rushing yards set a Bowl game rushing record by a QB. He was named Rose Bowl MVP for the second time in his career. UT beat USC by the score of 41 to 38 and Vince Young ran in the winning touchdown. In this game, UT ended USC's 34-game win streak. Young's 467 total yards set a new Rose Bowl record

2nd place in the Heisman voting, 2005 Maxwell Award (best college football plater)

Nice, eloquent post. I read the same article you did.

Now translate this to the NFL and the speed of play. Gonna be a whole different ball game.

The closest comparison to Young, is Michael Vick.

Michael Vick:
Attempts: 361
Completions: 202
Comp. %: 55.95%
Yards: 3,504
Interceptions: 12
Touchdowns: 22

Vincent Young:
Attempts: 393
Completions: 232
Comp. %: 59.03%
Yards: 3,004
Interceptions: 18
Touchdowns: 18

Translation:
Vick - 32 fewer pass attempts, 500 more yards, 4 more TDs, 6 fewer INTs

His game sure has carried over to the NFL, hasn't it? Wait... when he's not hurt by acting the stud, right?

Vinny
08-08-2006, 03:36 PM
The closest comparison to Young, is Michael Vick.

Why? Because they are both 6'5"?

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 03:43 PM
watching the Titans, Vince will probably start early in '06, if not Week1.

I truly hope so. I'm anxious to see him against NFL speed defenses. I do hope he succeeds.

Has Lienart made it to camp yet??

Never said I was a Leinart fan. Just curious why you prefered Young, over Leinart. If it's NFL Caliber you want, and want now, obviously, Leinart was probably the choice to make things happen now. Regardless, Leinart isn't any more of a tool than Mr. "I don't know anything about a house" Bush.



well Vince carried the Lion's share...

Yeah, one game, he was impressive as can be.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 03:44 PM
Why? Because they are both 6'5"?

Exactly (positive rep for Vinny!)

VY : Quarterback who can run the ball
Vick : running back who can throw the ball

Vince Young : Hybrid between McNair/Cunningham/McNabb/Culpepper
Michael Vick : 6'0 scrawny guy who runs a 4.3

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 03:44 PM
Why? Because they are both 6'5"?

Geez, Vinny... and the other reason, too. They both are similar in styles of play. Who do you compare him, to? Peyton Manning?

Vinny
08-08-2006, 03:46 PM
Never said I was a Leinart fan. Just curious why you prefered Young, over Leinart. If it's NFL Caliber you want, and want now, obviously, Leinart was probably the choice to make things happen now.
Obviously the NFL teams didn't think this or he wouldn't have slipped where he did in the draft. Someone would have moved up and taken him if his game demanded he was a top 5 talent....ie, there are not enough good QB's to go around. Leinart was overhyped by ESPN and the media just like USC was. The greatest team ever? Yeah right.

Vinny
08-08-2006, 03:49 PM
Geez, Vinny... and the other reason, too. They both are similar in styles of play. Who do you compare him, to? Peyton Manning?
I've seen both Vick and Young play but both have radically different body types. Vick is like making Reggie Bush into a QB. Young has much better vision and doesn't have to scramble just to see downfield. I don't think they are all that comparable outside of skin color and the fact that they are both good runners. I've never seen anyone quite like VY.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 03:49 PM
Exactly (positive rep for Vinny!)

VY : Quarterback who can run the ball
Vick : running back who can throw the ball

Vince Young : Hybrid between McNair/Cunningham/McNabb/Culpepper
Michael Vick : 6'0 scrawny guy who runs a 4.3

What do McNair/Cunningham/McNabb/Culpepper have in common?

Injuries. And not a Superbowl win between them.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 03:51 PM
Obviously the NFL teams didn't think this or he wouldn't have slipped where he did in the draft. Someone would have moved up and taken him if his game demanded he was a top 5 talent....ie, there are not enough good QB's to go around. Leinart was overhyped by ESPN and the media just like USC was. The greatest team ever? Yeah right.

I agree completely. Jay Cutler was the QB of the draft.

Vinny
08-08-2006, 03:51 PM
What do McNair/Cunningham/McNabb/Culpepper have in common?

Injuries. And not a Superbowl win between them.I know of some injured white guys who haven't won a super bowl either.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Why? Because they are both 6'5"?
No because thay are both running back style QB's. Tack fan I respect your position on VY but most of us on this board think VY is a injury waiting to happen. He is big and has huge talent but this is the NFL and he will not see the hit coming, the game has change so much, speed is everything and the def. he faced in college is not even close to what he will see on sundays. He needs to talk to Randell Cuttingham before throughing around his body and RUNNING in the NFL.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Obviously the NFL teams didn't think this or he wouldn't have slipped where he did in the draft. Someone would have moved up and taken him if his game demanded he was a top 5 talent....ie, there are not enough good QB's to go around. Leinart was overhyped by ESPN and the media just like USC was. The greatest team ever? Yeah right.


That's what I like to hear. USC was so overhyped it's ridiculous. I'm an LSU fan and everytime I hear about USC winning "back to back" national championships it makes my blood boil.

Check this out when you have time (http://lsuoverusc.blogspot.com/). It's a detailed report on why LSU should be the CLEAR CUT national champion of 2003. It's amazing. (scroll down to the part that says "Legitimacy and Merit: Why LSU was the sole 2003 National Champion")

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 03:55 PM
Never said I was a Leinart fan. Just curious why you prefered Young, over Leinart. If it's NFL Caliber you want, and want now, obviously, Leinart was probably the choice to make things happen now. Regardless, Leinart isn't any more of a tool than Mr. "I don't know anything about a house" Bush.


my point was that signability may have been a good reason not to sign another pretty boy QB..... we want somebody ugly....... like Vince... or Cutler....

Vinny
08-08-2006, 03:55 PM
No because thay are both running back style QB's. never hurt Steve Young....but then again, he is white.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 03:58 PM
I've seen both Vick and Young play but both have radically different body types. Vick is like making Reggie Bush into a QB. Young has much better vision and doesn't have to scramble just to see downfield. I don't they they are all that comparable outside of skin color and the fact that they are both good runners. I've never seen anyone quite like VY.


Let me make it clear - Skin Color has nothing to do with it. If you knew me, you'd know this. Why that came up, I'll never know.

My comparison is that both of these guys play in a similar way... they both will put it out there and leave nothing on the field when they leave. However, this type of QB has historically had nothing but injury problems. Great College Careers... but the intensity and speed of the NFL changes things.

I'm certainly not knocking Mr. Young or Mr. Vick. Both are incredibly talented players, with Young probably being the better of the two. It's just that given past history, these types of athletes have a tendancy to cost their teams games by being injured.

I'm glad Tack likes his man. TK as well, and from the sound of it, you too. Has nothing to do with the debate at hand... the Texans didn't choose him, or Bush, when they had the option to do so. They chose Mario, and whether or not we agree with it, it's done.

chuckm
08-08-2006, 03:58 PM
never hurt Steve Young....but then again, he is white.


Hilarious ....... Freaking hilarious .....

Tack fan created the comparison ...

Exactly (positive rep for Vinny!)

VY : Quarterback who can run the ball
Vick : running back who can throw the ball

Vince Young : Hybrid between McNair/Cunningham/McNabb/Culpepper
Michael Vick : 6'0 scrawny guy who runs a 4.3

yet you position this as if KKHouston is bringing race into the equation ....

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:00 PM
I just saw the grouping of all black QB's as the type that have problems being a QB in this league...Probably a coincidence. I know Steve Young was the same type player but he never gets mentioned when picking apart Young. I figured I'd throw him in there with the brothers.

chuckm
08-08-2006, 04:01 PM
Let me make it clear - Skin Color has nothing to do with it. If you knew me, you'd know this. Why that came up, I'll never know.



You personal leanings have nothing to do with it .... if you dare to question whether Young's talent and ability will translate to a long and successful NFL career then your obviously a racist ..... :spy:

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:02 PM
You personal leanings have nothing to do with it .... if you dare to question whether Young's talent and ability will translate to a long and successful NFL career then your obviously a racist ..... :spy:I'm just openly talking about what I see....you guys can dance around it all you want, but I haven't called anyone a racist...I'm just not pretending I don't notice the banter.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 04:03 PM
Hilarious ....... Freaking hilarious .....

Tack fan created the comparison ...



yet you position this as is KKHouston is bringing race into the equation ....


I didn't not bring Race into the equation?

Honoring Earl 34
08-08-2006, 04:03 PM
I would not have a QB that could'nt run . A QB thats a statue is just as likely to get hurt ... Carson Palmer .

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 04:05 PM
I didn't not bring Race into the equation?

I'm sure he meant "as if"

he thinks it is Ironic that the Vince Supporter compares him to the best Black QBs to have played the game, and left out the White guys like Steve Young, and John Elway........

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 04:05 PM
Obviously the NFL teams didn't think this or he wouldn't have slipped where he did in the draft. Someone would have moved up and taken him if his game demanded he was a top 5 talent....ie, there are not enough good QB's to go around. Leinart was overhyped by ESPN and the media just like USC was. The greatest team ever? Yeah right.

To be fair it very easily could have gone the other way with Leinart going 3 and Young slipping due to no fault by either one. The Titans coaches wanted Leinart but the GM wanted Young--the GM won the debate. If the same happened here, we might be watching Reggie Bush at camp.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 04:06 PM
never hurt Steve Young....but then again, he is white.
White and Black have NOTHING to do with this conversation. Where Young's rushing plays by design or were thay preasure related. All I'm saying is that Young and Vick strike me as have the some style "Pull it down and run"TMO and only MO. And IMO this style does not work in the NFL. See M. Vick

chuckm
08-08-2006, 04:07 PM
I'm just openly talking about what I see....you guys can dance around it all you want, but I haven't called anyone a racist...I'm just not pretending I don't notice the banter.


spin it however you like ..... but to dismiss other's opinions with statements like

never hurt Steve Young....but then again, he is white.

is short-sighted ...

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:07 PM
To be fair it very easily could have gone the other way with Leinart going 3 and Young slipping due to no fault by either one. The Titans coaches wanted Leinart but the GM wanted Young--the GM won the debate. If the same happened here, we might be watching Reggie Bush at camp.I don't know how it could have gone the other way when no other team in the NFL considered Leinart a top 10 QB.

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:08 PM
spin it however you like ..... but to dismiss other's opinions with statements like



is short-sighted ...No it's not...its called giving the forum a hint that all this race by code talk isn't transparent. That's not short sighted...that's just over your head.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 04:08 PM
I just saw the grouping of all black QB's as the type that have problems being a QB in this league...Probably a coincidence. I know Steve Young was the same type player but he never gets mentioned when picking apart Young. I figured I'd throw him in there with the brothers.

Wondering why you would key in on this?

Kaiser Toro
08-08-2006, 04:09 PM
Anyone have any more kindling? We seem to be losing the fire for a senseless debate. :rolleyes:

chuckm
08-08-2006, 04:10 PM
No it's not...its called giving the forum a hint that all this race by code talk isn't transparent. That's not short sighted...that's just over your head.


get over yourself Tiger ......

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 04:11 PM
I'm sure he meant "as if"

he thinks it is Ironic that the Vince Supporter compares him to the best Black QBs to have played the game, and left out the White guys like Steve Young, and John Elway........

No way to compare Elway or Young to Vince. Vince is athletic. Elway and Young did it for survival... clumsy, but effective.

Thanks for the clarification, TK

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 04:11 PM
I don't know how it could have gone the other way when no other team in the NFL considered Leinart a top 10 QB.

Well pretty easily if the Titans GM gave in to the Titans head coach and OC who wanted Leinart. Then Leinart would be the #3 pick. After that we don't know where VY would have fallen--possibly to AZ.

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:12 PM
White and Black have NOTHING to do with this conversation. Where Young's rushing plays by design or were thay preasure related. All I'm saying is that Young and Vick strike me as have the some style "Pull it down and run"TMO and only MO. And IMO this style does not work in the NFL. See M. VickIt works...see Steve Young. See how this works?

Runner
08-08-2006, 04:13 PM
I'm calling time out. Everyone stop posting for 5 minutes.






Did it work?

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:13 PM
Well pretty easily if the Titans GM gave in to the Titans head coach and OC who wanted Leinart. Then Leinart would be a #3 pick. After that we don't know where VY would have fallen--possibly to AZ.I think that if they thought Leinart was the guy they would have traded down. Obviously nobody thought it was worth trading up for Leinart.

chuckm
08-08-2006, 04:14 PM
I'm calling time out. Everyone stop posting for 5 minutes.






Did it work?


Heck no ... I wanna know which cheerleader KKHouston lives next to?

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 04:14 PM
Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 04:16 PM
To be fair it very easily could have gone the other way with Leinart going 3 and Young slipping due to no fault by either one. The Titans coaches wanted Leinart but the GM wanted Young--the GM won the debate. If the same happened here, we might be watching Reggie Bush at camp.

are you insinuating the GM wanted Reggie, and the coaches wanted Mario?? or are you just saying it could've happened??

As far as Tenessee's situation, has the coaches came out and said they didn't get the guy they wanted, and will make due with what they have, or are you just festering pre-draft speculations & inuendo??

Personally(and I'm sure you know this) If I had to choose the next Peyton Manning, or the next Steve McNair, no question about it, I'd go with the next Peyton Manning.......

But since Lienart is more likely the next Ken Dorsey, I'd have gone with Vince. It's hard for me to believe Fischer would see it differently.....

I could believe the coaches wanted Cutler & the GM wanted Vince. But not Lienart....

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 04:17 PM
I think that if they thought Leinart was the guy they would have traded down. Obviously nobody thought it was worth trading up for Leinart.

They might have wanted to trade down but just like for the Texans you have to have a trade partner and reasonable trade offer. Given the desire of both the HC and OC I don't see how it is inaccurate to say Leinart easily could have gone #3.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 04:17 PM
I don't know how it could have gone the other way when no other team in the NFL considered Leinart a top 10 QB.


The Titans sure did...

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:20 PM
They might have wanted to trade down but just like for the Texans you have to have a trade partner and reasonable trade offer. Given the desire of both the HC and OC I don't see how it is inaccurate to say Leinart easily could have gone #3.The key to getting the trade is if others value the talent enough to trade up for the player. I don't see how a QB short league would let a top 3 pick (perceived value) slide out of the top 10 using this logic.

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 04:22 PM
are you insinuating the GM wanted Reggie, and the coaches wanted Mario?? or are you just saying it could've happened??

There was some talk around draft time that Casserly wanted Bush more but basically with him on his way out Kubiak was in control--don't know that it is fact so call it could've happened.

As far as Tenessee's situation, has the coaches came out and said they didn't get the guy they wanted, and will make due with what they have, or are you just festering pre-draft speculations & inuendo??

Festering? There have been reports both pre and post draft that both Fisher and Chow wanted Leinart. I am not making any assertion about the relative merits of Leinart and VY at all, just that their draft position isn't the be all for how they were perceived--see Donte Whitner, all it takes is one team to set the draft value.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 04:23 PM
It works...see Steve Young. See how this works?
NO I dont see how this works. As stated by someone else in this post did Young run yes but he did it to stay alive to play the next play. Vick runs to run designed playes. Plays that are for him and him alone the play book changes when Schaub comes in the game And IMO that the same style tha VY has.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 04:23 PM
Heck no ... I wanna know which cheerleader KKHouston lives next to?

Hahaha... One clue.. a Five year Veteran.

I borrow Sugar and Milk from her all the time. Wonder if she's hip to me, yet?

chuckm
08-08-2006, 04:23 PM
Hahaha... One clue.. a Five year Veteran.

I borrow Sugar and Milk from her all the time. Wonder if she's hip to me, yet?


LOL

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 04:24 PM
I'm calling time out. Everyone stop posting for 5 minutes.






Did it work?
NO IT DID NOT

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:26 PM
NO I dont see how this works. As stated by someone else in this post did Young run yes but he did it to stay alive to play the next play. Vick runs to run designed playes. Plays that are for him and him alone the play book changes when Schaub comes in the game And IMO that the same style tha VY has.Young eventually matured into that QB....he didn't tear up the NFL with the Bucs and was considered a running QB in College when he first enrolled and a guy who ran too much early in his career. Young wasn't a scrambler...Young was a runner. Like Young in many ways.

When Young came to the 49ers in 1987, he played football recklessly. He would look to run, and not necessarily out of bounds, but over linebackers. He once took off running, after he lost his helmet, with several San Diego Chargers' defensive players in close pursuit. And this was in an exhibition game.

But watching Montana and learning from Bill Walsh, Mike Holmgren and Shanahan, Young eventually became such a refined quarterback he actually finished his career with better passing statistics than Montana.

"I came into the league and people that moved around, scramblers, were called mad scramblers, and that was because no one thought they could actually be efficient in the pocket, (that) they could actually overcome what they thought was a deficiency, their proclivity to head out of the pocket too early and try to do something else on their own and cause all kinds of havoc on the offense," Young said.

"I recognized that there was a reason that stereotype was there, because it did hurt offenses, that you had to learn to sit in the pocket and play. ... It's particularly difficult when you have this extra ability, to have the patience to learn the game, to learn to recognize that to be a quarterback in the NFL up to today, you've got to do it in the pocket.
http://allstarz.hollywood.com/steveyoung/hof02.htm

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 04:26 PM
start with a "T"?

It could...:) But I thought it started with "H" as in Hottie.

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 04:27 PM
The key to getting the trade is if others value the talent enough to trade up for the player. I don't see how a QB short league would let a top 3 pick (perceived value) slide out of the top 10 using this logic.

Just like we have discussed before every draft--the cost of trading up is very high. It is one thing to think a player is worth #3 and completely another to decide you want to move from #9 to #3 to go get him.

There are also all sorts of reasons why teams pass on players even if they believe they have top 10 talent--see, Ben Roethlisberger. And Leinart went at 10.

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 04:27 PM
Festering? There have been reports both pre and post draft that both Fisher and Chow wanted Leinart. I am not making any assertion about the relative merits of Leinart and VY at all, just that their draft position isn't the be all for how they were perceived--see Donte Whitner, all it takes is one team to set the draft value.

I'm just asking.... being they took Young, my thoughts are that Lienart was a smoke screen........ unless, you have a report saying that Fisher & Chow wanted the other guy...... not reports of rumors, but Fisher saying..... "We wanted Lienart, but we got hosed..." of course Fisher quiting, because he doesn't want to have to fight with teaching a young mobile QB how to play the game again would be enough to satisfy me.

But if Fisher is excited, and the reports are coming in that Vince is impressing everyone, and Fisher doesn't come out and say, "I was wrong, Vince was the right choice", then personally, I'm going to believe they got the guy they wanted.

But that's just me.

srstex
08-08-2006, 04:28 PM
Well- if things do go south this year and we draft early next year how about Brady Quinn, under Charlie Weiss at Notre Dame? Coming from the ultimate in a thinking Quaterback system, Quinn will be number 1 in 2007. As for drafting a RB, Denver is sarting,as of right now, an undrafted rookie! And Kubiak came from this mold. I like Bush ( read into that all you want ), and I like Young, but the RB position was never seriously on the Texan board, and Vince hurt himself on the wonderlick, and don't tell me about Marino, if you can't diguest the play book, you"ll are only Vick, with a better arm.

chuckm
08-08-2006, 04:29 PM
and Vince hurt himself on the wonderlick, and don't tell me about Marino, if you can't diguest the play book, you"ll are only Vick, with a better arm.


uh oh FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!!!!!!!

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 04:30 PM
Too many Youngs

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 04:30 PM
Just like we have discussed before every draft--the cost of trading up is very high. It is one thing to think a player is worth #3 and completely another to decide you want to move from #9 to #3 to go get him.



So you're saying even though Matt looked like he was a top 3 pick(according to ESPN), those who make the decisions, didn't think he was worth the price??

srstex
08-08-2006, 04:32 PM
Let me make it clear - Skin Color has nothing to do with it. If you knew me, you'd know this. Why that came up, I'll never know.

My comparison is that both of these guys play in a similar way... they both will put it out there and leave nothing on the field when they leave. However, this type of QB has historically had nothing but injury problems. Great College Careers... but the intensity and speed of the NFL changes things.

I'm certainly not knocking Mr. Young or Mr. Vick. Both are incredibly talented players, with Young probably being the better of the two. It's just that given past history, these types of athletes have a tendancy to cost their teams games by being injured.

I'm glad Tack likes his man. TK as well, and from the sound of it, you too. Has nothing to do with the debate at hand... the Texans didn't choose him, or Bush, when they had the option to do so. They chose Mario, and whether or not we agree with it, it's done.

Don't forget Fran Tarkentun ( yeah I knoe I can't spell )-Giants & Vikings

Honoring Earl 34
08-08-2006, 04:33 PM
No way to compare Elway or Young to Vince. Vince is athletic. Elway and Young did it for survival... clumsy, but effective.

Thanks for the clarification, TK
Elway and Steve Young were both very athletic ... they were'nt surviving they made plays . If VY gets in their league he'll be in the HOF not the other way around , and while he has the talent he needs to have a career first .

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 04:34 PM
Well- if things do go south this year and we draft early next year how about Brady Quinn, under Charlie Weiss at Notre Dame? Coming from the ultimate in a thinking Quaterback system, Quinn will be number 1 in 2007. As for drafting a RB, Denver is sarting,as of right now, an undrafted rookie! And Kubiak came from this mold. I like Bush ( read into that all you want ), and I like Young, but the RB position was never seriously on the Texan board, and Vince hurt himself on the wonderlick, and don't tell me about Marino, if you can't diguest the play book, you"ll are only Vick, with a better arm.


Yeah, Vince really hurt himself on the Wonderlic. Going #3 in the draft and first QB taken...damn that test really affected the Titans feelings.

F the wonderlic. Vince Young can be deaf, dumb, and blind for all i care as long as he wins us games.

Bringing up the wonderlic is pointless. These guys aren't applying for med school.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 04:34 PM
Young eventually matured into that QB....he didn't tear up the NFL with the Bucs and was considered a running QB in College and a guy who ran too much early in his career. Young wasn't a scrambler...Young was a runner. Like Young in many ways.

You're wrong. S.Young was a scrambler. Fran Tarkenton style. He was athletic, but no where near Vince's abilities. Well, he was like him in another way... you know: The Last Name.

S.Young also was known for his intelligence. That, and snubbing the NFL for the USFL. Something Vince is not known for.

Bring your race card out again, Mr. Cochran. "If you don't draft, you must be daft". I made a comment about Vince's intelligence. Is that a race thing, too?

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 04:36 PM
Well pretty easily if the Titans GM gave in to the Titans head coach and OC who wanted Leinart. Then Leinart would be the #3 pick. After that we don't know where VY would have fallen--possibly to AZ.
On this I heard that the OWNER was the one to make the call to take VY. Heard the FO and coaches all wanted Leinart. I'm realy not sure this was months ago and I'm sure Tack Fan will correct me if I'm wrong. LOL

chuckm
08-08-2006, 04:37 PM
On this I heard that the OWNER was the one to make the call to take VY. Heard the FO and coaches all wanted Leinart.


I've heard John McClain say that same thing several times ...... FWIW ....

srstex
08-08-2006, 04:40 PM
are you insinuating the GM wanted Reggie, and the coaches wanted Mario?? or are you just saying it could've happened??

As far as Tenessee's situation, has the coaches came out and said they didn't get the guy they wanted, and will make due with what they have, or are you just festering pre-draft speculations & inuendo??

Personally(and I'm sure you know this) If I had to choose the next Peyton Manning, or the next Steve McNair, no question about it, I'd go with the next Peyton Manning.......

But since Lienart is more likely the next Ken Dorsey, I'd have gone with Vince. It's hard for me to believe Fischer would see it differently.....

I could believe the coaches wanted Cutler & the GM wanted Vince. But not Lienart....

Manning or McNair ? McNair every time ! I am an old Oiler fan, and I have seen him too many times become SUPERMAN to ever take Manning over Steve. Ravens are in the playoffs this year.

Runner
08-08-2006, 04:40 PM
A chilling vision of things to come. But there is always that whole idea of that is why they play the game. At this moment in time they have zero measureables in their NFL careers, it truly is a tabula rasa.

All we have here is one more sour thread on what was, rather than on what will be.


Next time say clean slate.


I also can't believe that with post #4 you thought this would be a sour thread.

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:40 PM
You're wrong. S.Young was a scrambler. Fran Tarkenton style. He was athletic, but no where near Vince's abilities. Well, he was like him in another way... you know: The Last Name.

S.Young also was known for his intelligence. That, and snubbing the NFL for the USFL. Something Vince is not known for.
Young was an option QB and had a hard time getting on at BYU at first since they saw him as an option guy. You can check for yourself on that one. He was very much a runner as I posted in that link above. Steve Young didn't pass for over 53% till his 4th year in the NFL and had a knock on him that he ran too much. Nothing you type can change that.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 04:42 PM
Well no one really knows who wanted Vince or wanted Leinart. EVERYTHING that is said is hearsay.

If you want to go by what the coaches have said to the media, then everyone wanted Young. Well maybe not everyone, but they all came to an agreement to pick Young.

Obviously the majority of the Titans FO and Coaches wanted Young or he wouldn't be on the team. If everyone on the coaching staff and FO wanted Leinart I honestly don't think Bud would just completely veto that and say "Young or bust!" .... if Bud wanted to run his team that much he wouldn't have a GM....get my point?

So why dont we just leave it at this: Vince Young is on the Titans and he wouldn't be unless a majority of Titans FO/Coaching staff wanted him there.

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 04:42 PM
So you're saying even though Matt looked like he was a top 3 pick(according to ESPN), those who make the decisions, didn't think he was worth the price??

This really isn't a difficult concept--it is expensive to move up and if you are picking in the top 10 you already suck and have multiple holes. Sean Taylor was top 5 talent but there was no point in the Texans moving up from 10 and giving up Dunta plus 2-3 other picks. Every team in the league may rate Mario worth a 1st overall or 2nd--that doesn't mean every team or any team will trade up to get him because of the price both cap wise and pick wise to make the move.

I have not heard any reports that the Titans GM wanted anyone but VY so by the reports the owner and GM wanted VY and the HC and OC wanted Leinart. It really doesn't matter.

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:45 PM
This really isn't a difficult concept--it is expensive to move up and if you are picking in the top 10 you already suck and have multiple holes. Sean Taylor was top 5 talent but there was no point in the Texans moving up from 10 and giving up Dunta plus 2-3 other picks. Every team in the league may rate Mario worth a 1st overall or 2nd--that doesn't mean every team or any team will trade up to get him because of the price both cap wise and pick wise to make the move.I think teams will pay for a star QB but not a SS or FS. I don't even think teams want to pay 8-9 mil a year for a rb (the Bush at #1 thing). I don't think there are any teams that are wary of putting a big cap hit on a QB they feel is a can't miss...even though there is no such thing.

I think Leinart will be almost as good as Pennington when this all shakes out. Time always tells.

srstex
08-08-2006, 04:47 PM
Yeah, Vince really hurt himself on the Wonderlic. Going #3 in the draft and first QB taken...damn that test really affected the Titans feelings.

F the wonderlic. Vince Young can be deaf, dumb, and blind for all i care as long as he wins us games.

Bringing up the wonderlic is pointless. These guys aren't applying for med school.

We know VY won't

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 04:50 PM
We know VY won't

Won't what? I can't read your mind.

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 04:50 PM
I think teams will pay for a star QB but not a SS or FS.

I was just illustrating with a trade up advocated by many at this MB--the point was merely how much has to be given up--multiple players and additional cap space--to move up. So even where a team thinks a player is the 3rd best player on their board they won't move up.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 04:54 PM
Well no one really knows who wanted Vince or wanted Leinart. EVERYTHING that is said is hearsay.

If you want to go by what the coaches have said to the media, then everyone wanted Young. Well maybe not everyone, but they all came to an agreement to pick Young.

Obviously the majority of the Titans FO and Coaches wanted Young or he wouldn't be on the team. If everyone on the coaching staff and FO wanted Leinart I honestly don't think Bud would just completely veto that and say "Young or bust!" .... if Bud wanted to run his team that much he wouldn't have a GM....get my point?

So why dont we just leave it at this: Vince Young is on the Titans and he wouldn't be unless a majority of Titans FO/Coaching staff wanted him there.
We need BUM and EARL on this MB BUTT ADAMS runs the Titans What he wants he gets period. Ask every fan in HOUSTON. GM or No GM

Vinny
08-08-2006, 04:55 PM
I was just illustrating with a trade up advocated by many at this MB--the point was merely how much has to be given up--multiple players and additional cap space--to move up. So even where a team thinks a player is the 3rd best player on their board they won't move up.I understand and you make fine counter points as these issues make for a good debate/argument.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 04:57 PM
Young was an option QB and had a hard time getting on at BYU at first since they saw him as an option guy. You can check for yourself on that one. He was very much a runner as I posted in that link above. Steve Young didn't pass for over 53% till his 4th year in the NFL and had a knock on him that he ran too much. Nothing you type can change that.

Steve Young:
Completed 71.3 percent (306-429 for 3,902 yards and 33 TDs) of his passes as a senior for the highest single-season percentage in NCAA history at the time ... BYU won 11 of 12 games, including a Holiday Bowl victory over Missouri, in 1983, as he passed for better that 300 yards in all but two of the games.

During his NFL career, the left-hander threw for 3,000 or more yards six times and had 20 or more touchdown passes in a season five times, and posted a passer rating of 100 or higher six times. Aside from his passing ability, Young was a constant threat as a runner. He ran for 4,239 yards and scored 43 rushing touchdowns.

Young, one of the most accurate passers in league history, was named All-Pro in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1998 and earned All-NFC honors three times. The two-time league MVP also was selected to the Pro Bowl seven times.


BYU and Young:

He spent two years on the bench behind...Jim McMahon. Yeah, he had a hard time getting on at BYU. He simply went on after McMahon went Pro and threw for 7700+ Yard and 56 TD's in two years.


Sounds a lot like an option QB as opposed to one who was: Accurate, Intelligent, and could scramble.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 05:00 PM
We need BUM and EARL on this MB BUTT ADAMS runs the Titans What he wants he gets period. Ask every fan in HOUSTON. GM or No GM


Well then I'm glad he gets what he wants. I've been wanting to see Vince Young in two-tone blue since the '05 Rose Bowl.

Coach C.
08-08-2006, 05:02 PM
KKHouston read the post man. He said he did not pass for a certain completion percentage until till his 4th year in the league. He spent some time behind Montana, but no one questions how good HOFer Steve Young is. I doubt Vinny is even questioning that, but Young was an option QB and a running guy for a while and then settled down into the WestCoast offense. The one thing that Young had over a Vick and Young is that he was a smarter guy, and was not as athletic as they were. Young's career ended because he could not always get away like the before mentioned guys and the concussions piled up. Vick is a success in this league already, but will he ever be a good passer? Not likely...

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 05:04 PM
Well then I'm glad he gets what he wants. I've been wanting to see Vince Young in two-tone blue since the '05 Rose Bowl.

But not prior? Did you even know who he was prior to his Sophomore Year? You've followed him for a while....

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 05:07 PM
But not prior? Did you even know who he was prior to his Sophomore Year? You've followed him for a while....

Notice I said '05 Rose bowl. But before that I had only heard his name, not seen him perform.

But it is crazy how many Titans fans only saw him play in the National Championship game. I guess that's ok though, some people aren't big college fans.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 05:08 PM
KKHouston read the post man. He said he did not pass for a certain completion percentage until till his 4th year in the league. He spent some time behind Montana, but no one questions how good HOFer Steve Young is. I doubt Vinny is even questioning that, but Young was an option QB and a running guy for a while and then settled down into the WestCoast offense. The one thing that Young had over a Vick and Young is that he was a smarter guy, and was not as athletic as they were. Young's career ended because he could not always get away like the before mentioned guys and the concussions piled up. Vick is a success in this league already, but will he ever be a good passer? Not likely...

Thanks, Coach C... my point exactly. Comparing Vick and V. Young to S. Young is not the same due to intelligence, and passing ability. S. Young was a passer in College as well as he could run if needed.

V.Young has a LONG way to go to be even mentioned in the same sentence as S. Young. However, comparing him to Vick isn't that difficult at this stage. He's the closest comparison to him in the league today.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 05:11 PM
Thanks, Coach C... my point exactly. Comparing Vick and V. Young to S. Young is not the same due to intelligence, and passing ability. S. Young was a passer in College as well as he could run if needed.

V.Young has a LONG way to go to be even mentioned in the same sentence as S. Young. However, comparing him to Vick isn't that difficult at this stage. He's the closest comparison to him in the league today.

Vince might have a long way to go but I am more than willing to wait. I'd be thrilled to see Volek start all 16 games this year.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 05:13 PM
Notice I said '05 Rose bowl. But before that I had only heard his name, not seen him perform.

I went back and edited in the Sophomore year.

I've seen Vince play in High School, and thought he was something special. He is talented, and probably one of the best "pure" athletes out there today.

My only point is that this is now the NFL, and while I sincerely hope this doesn't happen, he's a prime candidate for following the McNabb/McNair/Vick path and being hurt, often. He HAS to learn to do that only when it matters, and rely on those around him to produce as well. It's difficult for someone who is such a competitor do that... as evidenced by the above players.

You've got a good player there, and I am not knocking him. He's just simply not the type of QB for Kubiak's offense here, and while I don't doubt Vince's ability, I do doubt that a leopard can change his spots.

Good luck this season.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 05:14 PM
Vince might have a long way to go but I am more than willing to wait. I'd be thrilled to see Volek start all 16 games this year.

As would I, Tack. Bring him along correctly.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 05:16 PM
Vince might have a long way to go but I am more than willing to wait. I'd be thrilled to see Volek start all 16 games this year.
Volek will not start all 16 games. I'm telling you right now Bud will start VY in the hou game just to Pi$$ of all the UT/VY fans that are unhappy with our FO for not drafting him. It's just the way the old man is when it comes to the city of Houston.

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 05:18 PM
Volek will not start all 16 games. I'm telling you right now Bud will start VY in the hou game just to Pi$$ of all the UT/VY fans that are unhappy with our FO for not drafting him. It's just the way the old man is when it comes to the city of Houston.

You're right.

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-08-2006, 05:26 PM
Well we get to see Vince in action in t-minus 3 1/2 days. I will be there in person, but you guys can catch it on NFL network.

Vince vs. Reggie baby!!!

KKHouston
08-08-2006, 05:28 PM
Well we get to see Vince in action in t-minus 3 1/2 days. I will be there in person, but you guys can catch it on NFL network.

Vince vs. Reggie baby!!!

Looking forward to it!

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 05:49 PM
Well we get to see Vince in action in t-minus 3 1/2 days. I will be there in person, but you guys can catch it on NFL network.

Vince vs. Reggie baby!!!


Part II

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 07:05 PM
Go David.

David's Busted Carr
08-09-2006, 11:31 AM
Funny how everyone says this is an "old" topic, and people a few of you have said this is the worst post of the year, but still gets 9 pages of responses.

Let me rephrase the point I was trying to make.

I am NOT bashing Mario Williams, in fact I like him and think he might become a great player (look at my avatar).

BUT, at this point in time, the Texans NEED an explosive playmaking RB/WR more than they NEED another DE. Switching to 4-3 defense we would have been just fine with Weaver, Peek, and Babin covering the DEs with Smith, Payne, and TJ inside.

Who do we have as our RBs now? And QUIT comparing this team to Denver!!! PLEASE!!! People keep doing this and it annoys the hell out of me. Denver has had an ESTABLISHED STUD quality line for the past 10 years. That is why they can plug almost anyone back there with success. The Texans Oline has been THE WORST in the NFL the past 4 years. And while Kubiak's system will help, they WILL NOT be Denver's oline!

And it's more than just on the field. Imagine the buzz and interest the Texans would have right now with Reggie on our team. Right now people mention the Texans the general sentiment is "yeah, they got a new coach, but I can't belive they didn't take Reggie Bush. they will still suck".

I hope I'm wrong. I hope Reggie Bush doesn't live up to the hype, and Mario Williams is the next Reggie White.

Runner
08-09-2006, 11:41 AM
Funny how everyone says this is an "old" topic, and people a few of you have said this is the worst post of the year, but still gets 9 pages of responses.


Don't forget those of us who extend the page count with off-topic comments - usually failed attempts at humor.

KKHouston
08-09-2006, 12:11 PM
BUT, at this point in time, the Texans NEED an explosive playmaking RB/WR more than they NEED another DE. Switching to 4-3 defense we would have been just fine with Weaver, Peek, and Babin covering the DEs with Smith, Payne, and TJ inside.

And it's more than just on the field. Imagine the buzz and interest the Texans would have right now with Reggie on our team. Right now people mention the Texans the general sentiment is "yeah, they got a new coach, but I can't belive they didn't take Reggie Bush. they will still suck".


Respectfully, I believe you're wrong. While an explosive playmaking RB would a boon to this team, spending the money on Reggie wasn't the answer, and those in control of the team agree. Our defense lost as many games for us last year, if not more, than the Offense did.

Who CARES about the buzz and interest off the field? I, along with 50000 other ticket holders reupped our tickets (it appears). Why? Because it's football, and changes were made. Maybe not the change you wanted, but the change was made, regardless. Like us or hate us, you KNOW us.

Just curious... how many season tickets were renewed? Anywhere we can get this information?

thunderkyss
08-09-2006, 12:15 PM
Funny how everyone says this is an "old" topic, and people a few of you have said this is the worst post of the year, but still gets 9 pages of responses.

Let me rephrase the point I was trying to make.

I am NOT bashing Mario Williams, in fact I like him and think he might become a great player (look at my avatar).

BUT, at this point in time, the Texans NEED an explosive playmaking RB/WR more than they NEED another DE. Switching to 4-3 defense we would have been just fine with Weaver, Peek, and Babin covering the DEs with Smith, Payne, and TJ inside.

I disagree.... I think Morency has shown plenty of promise.... so if DD can't go, he'll do fine..... Antowain Smith has also provided good/great production, for someone who has been in so many different offenses, as often as he has. So personally, I'm not worried about the RB position at all.

Then with Moulds, AJ, and Putz......... all proven in my book, all known to stretch the field, and David with his big arm....... and with a pass catching fullback, and HBs..... to keep the LBs & safeties occupied...... we're going to be pretty explosive as is.

Who do we have as our RBs now? And QUIT comparing this team to Denver!!! PLEASE!!! People keep doing this and it annoys the hell out of me.


We ran the run blocking scheme for two years....... DD(who will be ready to go by Sept 10) understands it really well.... he will have a breakout year, thanks to the similarities between our offensive system and theirs...

Denver has had an ESTABLISHED STUD quality line for the past 10 years. That is why they can plug almost anyone back there with success. The Texans Oline has been THE WORST in the NFL the past 4 years. And while Kubiak's system will help, they WILL NOT be Denver's oline!


they don't have to be... we've got a RB who will break off a thousand yards with the worst offensive line in history.... coach them up a little bit, and he'll get you 1400/1600 yards...... bank on it.

again....... if Gary Kubiak keeping Carr means that he can get the job done, then it says the same for Wand, Pitts, mcKinney, and Wiegart...... they weren't so bad because of lack of talent.... but lack of preperation.

And it's more than just on the field. Imagine the buzz and interest the Texans would have right now with Reggie on our team. Right now people mention the Texans the general sentiment is "yeah, they got a new coach, but I can't belive they didn't take Reggie Bush. they will still suck".


far as I know, everyone still expects the Saints to be at the bottom of the NFC South..... even many Saints fans.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope Reggie Bush doesn't live up to the hype, and Mario Williams is the next Reggie White.

I hope Reggie Lives up to his hype, and I hope DD sets career numbers for the next 3 years running....