PDA

View Full Version : Texan's Training Camp Report - Michael Smith


Pages : [1] 2

chuckm
08-04-2006, 02:09 PM
good read


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp06/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2539272

TheRealJoker
08-04-2006, 02:20 PM
Michael Smith rules

MightyTExan
08-04-2006, 02:24 PM
Good read, i've been waitng for this. He's one of the rare writers with a brain.

Porky
08-04-2006, 02:57 PM
Some of us mentioned that he was coddled, treated with kid gloves, et al, and most of us were excoriated by the Carr crew. But, all in all, it's like a new life for Carr as far as I am concerned. It's like being born again. I for one, am going to basically start fresh in my evualtions of him, as if he was a rookie. Let's see what he can do this year, and we will go from there. Good article!

Runner
08-04-2006, 03:05 PM
I for one, am going to basically start fresh in my evualtions of him, as if he was a rookie. Let's see what he can do this year, and we will go from there.

I did that for the entire team. Maybe not the rookie part, but you get my drift.

THEFUTURE
08-04-2006, 03:07 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp06/insider/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2539314&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos3&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2ftrainingcamp06%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fco lumnist%3dsmith

this is another article by smith he put out today, but its an insider article... so if anyone has insider they should go check it out, and be nice and repost it here

SESupergenius
08-04-2006, 03:11 PM
Carr has almost everything he needs to succeed this year, although our offensive line and running back is a concern. But it's not a perfect world and he will need to prove to people that he can get it done. I don't expect us to be .500 this year, but I do expect great things from this new scheme as far as improvement. Carr needs to throw 20 TD's this year and have more TD's than INT to gain the respect of fans. He does that and we are in the playoffs next year.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-04-2006, 03:12 PM
Great article, from ESPN, and great post let's see what happens.....now

wrestler4life
08-04-2006, 03:16 PM
For those of us who don't, can you summarize?

Runner
08-04-2006, 03:35 PM
Carr has almost everything he needs to succeed this year, although our offensive line and running back is a concern.

I know pass blocking is the cool thing to talk about, but I think our run blocking will be very good this year. That will be some help.

cap1
08-04-2006, 03:37 PM
gpshafer_1976


Thanks for the article.

Hulk75
08-04-2006, 03:48 PM
Great Job by Michael Smith:cool:

thunderkyss
08-04-2006, 03:50 PM
good read


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp06/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2539272


Thankyou........ that is the best thing I've read all summer..........

TexanSam
08-04-2006, 03:52 PM
Nice read. An article about the Texans that actually gave us some insight. I can't wait to see what Peter King has to say about the Texans. I respect him the most out of any football writer.

GP
08-04-2006, 03:56 PM
Hardly endears me to Carr--to know that this guy was babied by Capers and Carr (he acknowledged that fact) let it happen for 4 years? What about having to look your teammates in the face or being professional and proactive in trying to improve? No surprise that this guy hasn't been embraced as a leader because a leader wouldn't have to be prodded to become a better player. Sound like Carr sandbagged his azz off because he knew that he could. Talk about a paycheck player...pfft.

If Smith's column does anything, it only galvanizes what I believe Carr is all about based on his performance thus far. This article is as incriminating as anything that has been said about Casserly or Capers' foolhearted belief in his BS "system" (what a misnomer).

**I'm putting on my snorkel for the countless homers on this board who will attempt to drown me in the same pro-Carr rhetoric you've heard for the last 3 years. Some of you are worse that Chicago Cubs fans.**

Sit back and watch. And then grab a fork when we bring you a big plate of crow to eat in about two months.

If you knew as much about this topic as you proclaim, you'd know that Carr honored Capers and did what he was told to do...NOT lone-rangering his job at QB like so many characterless punks do these days. Carr didn't perform because he was one man up against a highly incapable coaching staff who, in my opinion, were worse at gameplanning than a 12-year-old on Madden '06...I swear, a 12-year-old who's been playing Madden could call better plays, and anticipate the other team's tendencies better than Capers and Fangio. Heck, Capers doesn't even get to install his own version of defense in Miami...he's been told to sit there and relay the calls, a very demeaning demotion for a guy who was head of our football program for four years.

You base your evaluation on Carr's "performance" when you never even mention or seem to recognize what Michael Smith of ESPN has recognized: "Every player realizes who poorly coached they were last year, and EVERY player (to a man) expresses supreme confidence in Kubiak even though they have yet to play a game."

Yeah, we're a bunch of homers....of course, if you had been around for the past few years on this board you would have seen lots of us who bashed Carr like you are.....only to come around at some point and realize that the entire team suffered under such incompetency the likes of which will be very easy to see when we roll onto the field soon.

Don't worry, at some point you'll see the light, too. Just takes some people longer than others. But go ahead and hold your grudge against the QB...he's always the one who gets the glory or the blame in football. It's always the QBs fault, isn't it?

Well, the whole team stunk and that's changing RAPIDLY. Take the time to read all the coverage and then mentally time warp yourself back to this time last year...try and make a mental image in your head of last year's practices vs. this year's practices. Heck, take a look at the rosters for that matter. That's enough all by itself.

thunderkyss
08-04-2006, 03:58 PM
Carr has almost everything he needs to succeed this year, although our offensive line and running back is a concern. But it's not a perfect world and he will need to prove to people that he can get it done. I don't expect us to be .500 this year, but I do expect great things from this new scheme as far as improvement. Carr needs to throw 20 TD's this year and have more TD's than INT to gain the respect of fans. He does that and we are in the playoffs next year.


I know I've predicted us to win the AFC South this year...... and a little bit of that is tongue and cheek..... but I honestly expect us to sweep the Jags(good D, but seriously overrated as a team), and the Titans....

Depending on how the Colts handle that thing with Peyton sending the kicking team off the field in the playoffs, they might be in a lot of turmoil. So I can see us winning at least one against them.

And as bad as we were last year, I think we stopped ourselves from scoring more than any other team did. I think we'll be better than okay in '06..... We still have our core....... at least three of our OLine is going to be starting, DD should be back, hopefully our full back, plus our run blocking will get him 5+ yards past the LOS before any one can touch him, and he can play all year.

Like Michael Smith said, Andre & Moulds gives Houston two #1 recievers, with Putz keeping the safeties honest, and DD & Cook being recieving threats out of the backfield...... to occupy the underneath coverage......

Man I'm really excited about '06...

GP
08-04-2006, 04:04 PM
Hardly endears me to Carr--to know that this guy was babied by Capers and Carr (he acknowledged that fact) let it happen for 4 years? What about having to look your teammates in the face or being professional and proactive in trying to improve? No surprise that this guy hasn't been embraced as a leader because a leader wouldn't have to be prodded to become a better player. Sound like Carr sandbagged his azz off because he knew that he could. Talk about a paycheck player...pfft.

If Smith's column does anything, it only galvanizes what I believe Carr is all about based on his performance thus far. This article is as incriminating as anything that has been said about Casserly or Capers' foolhearted belief in his BS "system" (what a misnomer).

**I'm putting on my snorkel for the countless homers on this board who will attempt to drown me in the same pro-Carr rhetoric you've heard for the last 3 years. Some of you are worse that Chicago Cubs fans.**

He didn't sandbag anything, man.

That's what you WANT to see so that you can act as if you are diagnosing a problem that nobody else can see.

All the head coaching candidates said Carr is the man, and Kubiak definitely thinks he is the man. And a billionaire thinks he is the man. And you, with all of ONE post, who has absolutely no hand in NFL operations, sits there and rag the guy and then rag us for cheering our guy.

Wake up, man: He's the QB. If you want to see us succeed, you'll stop the "I'm smarter than you are" act and get on board with the very real fact that the Texans' success is directly tied to the success of David Carr. The two are inseparable.

Of course, I guess you can always root for him to fail so that he gets thrown off the team...and that's what puzzles me about the anti-Car crowd. They actually want us to lose and suffer so they can be proven right. And yet you say WE are stupid for rooting for his success, for believing in the guy.

Amazing.

GP
08-04-2006, 04:05 PM
link to Texans Training Camp article:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp06/insider/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2539314

whiskeyrbl
08-04-2006, 04:14 PM
Excellent article: It's about time someone in the national spotlight says something positive about our boys.

AJExplosion80
08-04-2006, 04:14 PM
I have always liked David Carr and respected him but always thought the coaching staff was full of crap. Yeah they got us going but man last year they were predictable. I would sit at home and almost could call the same game because I knew what they were going to do and I can only imgaine the other team. I could even guess what the other team was going to do because they would do it over and over and we would keep falling for it. It is about time we have a coach and a staff that has guts and will get in everyone's face and tell them how it is. I don't like how Carr just didn't become a leader but all can be forgiven if he stands up this year and becomes a leader. I want to see some fire in him this year. Go Texans .500 in 06 would be nice. :whip:

ronaldod1
08-04-2006, 04:44 PM
Hardly endears me to Carr--to know that this guy was babied by Capers and Carr (he acknowledged that fact) let it happen for 4 years? What about having to look your teammates in the face or being professional and proactive in trying to improve? No surprise that this guy hasn't been embraced as a leader because a leader wouldn't have to be prodded to become a better player. Sound like Carr sandbagged his azz off because he knew that he could. Talk about a paycheck player...pfft.

If Smith's column does anything, it only galvanizes what I believe Carr is all about based on his performance thus far. This article is as incriminating as anything that has been said about Casserly or Capers' foolhearted belief in his BS "system" (what a misnomer).

**I'm putting on my snorkel for the countless homers on this board who will attempt to drown me in the same pro-Carr rhetoric you've heard for the last 3 years. Some of you are worse that Chicago Cubs fans.**


you ever played a sport before (at a serious level)? If you had you would understand that there is a difference between working hard and working smart. I have no doubts that most players on the team physically worked their tails off. That doesn't necessarily make you any better at all. Carr's point is that, during the capers regime, there was no system to buy into, no real purpose in their efforts. They all wanted to be better but they didnt truly know how.

you are so far off base it's ridiculous.

HOU-TEX
08-04-2006, 04:52 PM
I know I've predicted us to win the AFC South this year...... and a little bit of that is tongue and cheek..... but I honestly expect us to sweep the Jags(good D, but seriously overrated as a team), and the Titans....

Depending on how the Colts handle that thing with Peyton sending the kicking team off the field in the playoffs, they might be in a lot of turmoil. So I can see us winning at least one against them.

And as bad as we were last year, I think we stopped ourselves from scoring more than any other team did. I think we'll be better than okay in '06..... We still have our core....... at least three of our OLine is going to be starting, DD should be back, hopefully our full back, plus our run blocking will get him 5+ yards past the LOS before any one can touch him, and he can play all year.

Like Michael Smith said, Andre & Moulds gives Houston two #1 recievers, with Putz keeping the safeties honest, and DD & Cook being recieving threats out of the backfield...... to occupy the underneath coverage......

Man I'm really excited about '06...

I think this post is the best you've made since I've been reading this MB. Good job TK. Welcome to optimism.:whip: :bananasplit:

alphajoker
08-04-2006, 04:58 PM
Great article by Smith. Wasn't he basically the only writer that wrote Mario Williams would be the best pick for the Texans?

TheRealJoker
08-04-2006, 05:06 PM
Great article by Smith. Wasn't he basically the only writer that wrote Mario Williams would be the best pick for the Texans?

The best part is when he hulked up on "Around The Horn"

:mario:

GP
08-04-2006, 05:09 PM
I think this post is the best you've made since I've been reading this MB. Good job TK. Welcome to optimism.:whip: :bananasplit:

No comment.

CajunTexan
08-04-2006, 05:17 PM
I know I've predicted us to win the AFC South this year...... and a little bit of that is tongue and cheek..... but I honestly expect us to sweep the Jags(good D, but seriously overrated as a team), and the Titans....

Depending on how the Colts handle that thing with Peyton sending the kicking team off the field in the playoffs, they might be in a lot of turmoil. So I can see us winning at least one against them.

And as bad as we were last year, I think we stopped ourselves from scoring more than any other team did. I think we'll be better than okay in '06..... We still have our core....... at least three of our OLine is going to be starting, DD should be back, hopefully our full back, plus our run blocking will get him 5+ yards past the LOS before any one can touch him, and he can play all year.

Like Michael Smith said, Andre & Moulds gives Houston two #1 recievers, with Putz keeping the safeties honest, and DD & Cook being recieving threats out of the backfield...... to occupy the underneath coverage......

Man I'm really excited about '06...

T-Kyss...you are right on...I am not as optimistic as Ibar and his 13 wins, but I really believe we can win 10-11 games. Heck...just throw out 2005 and look at what the roster was in 2004 when we won 7.


WE WILL BEAT INDY THIS YEAR...I think they will be ripe for the taking in week 2 which will put us starting off 2-0. When that happens...look out!!!

Insideop
08-04-2006, 05:17 PM
Great article by Smith. Wasn't he basically the only writer that wrote Mario Williams would be the best pick for the Texans?

Yes, I think he was the only writer to say Mario would be the best pick for Houston (at least the only one I saw). I read that article about a week before the draft and I was in total agreement, but at the time I figured there was no way we would pass on Bush. I for one am glad we did! :yahoo:

SESupergenius
08-04-2006, 05:21 PM
I know I've predicted us to win the AFC South this year...... and a little bit of that is tongue and cheek..... but I honestly expect us to sweep the Jags(good D, but seriously overrated as a team), and the Titans....

Depending on how the Colts handle that thing with Peyton sending the kicking team off the field in the playoffs, they might be in a lot of turmoil. So I can see us winning at least one against them.

And as bad as we were last year, I think we stopped ourselves from scoring more than any other team did. I think we'll be better than okay in '06..... We still have our core....... at least three of our OLine is going to be starting, DD should be back, hopefully our full back, plus our run blocking will get him 5+ yards past the LOS before any one can touch him, and he can play all year.

Like Michael Smith said, Andre & Moulds gives Houston two #1 recievers, with Putz keeping the safeties honest, and DD & Cook being recieving threats out of the backfield...... to occupy the underneath coverage......

Man I'm really excited about '06...
I am just as excited but I still have reservations over the defensive backs, linebackers and offensive lines, 3 areas of concern that we had last year. With the injuries piling up, it's going to only be tougher. The first preseason game is going to tell all.

tsip
08-04-2006, 06:10 PM
"Wake up, man: He's the QB. If you want to see us succeed, you'll stop the "I'm smarter than you are" act and get on board with the very real fact that the Texans' success is directly tied to the success of David Carr. The two are inseparable"

This statement is so true...now, if you can just guarantee that 'success', we'll be all set!! Heck, we can for go the season and just 'wallow' in the 'inevitable.' I'm still trying to picture Johnny Unitas letting himself get 'coddled' for 4 years...

Grid
08-04-2006, 06:45 PM
Hardly endears me to Carr--to know that this guy was babied by Capers and Carr (he acknowledged that fact) let it happen for 4 years? What about having to look your teammates in the face or being professional and proactive in trying to improve? No surprise that this guy hasn't been embraced as a leader because a leader wouldn't have to be prodded to become a better player. Sound like Carr sandbagged his azz off because he knew that he could. Talk about a paycheck player...pfft.

If Smith's column does anything, it only galvanizes what I believe Carr is all about based on his performance thus far. This article is as incriminating as anything that has been said about Casserly or Capers' foolhearted belief in his BS "system" (what a misnomer).

**I'm putting on my snorkel for the countless homers on this board who will attempt to drown me in the same pro-Carr rhetoric you've heard for the last 3 years. Some of you are worse that Chicago Cubs fans.**


Im not gonna drown ya in logic :D.. im just gonna ignore you so i dont ever have to be unwillingly subjected to such a post again.

TexanBorn51
08-04-2006, 08:01 PM
Like I've been saying all along this year on this site and around the world it's playoff bound... why not. Luv ya Blue did it and now it's the Luv ya Red, White, and Blue time. Right on can't wait and onward to about 10 games on the win list. :fans:

Hardcore Texan
08-04-2006, 09:01 PM
Great article by Smith. Wasn't he basically the only writer that wrote Mario Williams would be the best pick for the Texans?

Such a great point! Smith is the best writer ESPN has, this guy does his research, just look at how much effort and work he put into this article.
Tell me this...Where have you seen so much accurate detail about our team? Not in the national media ever.

I have seen his analysis turn out to be more true, more often than anyone else, the guy works hard and stays informed, we need more like him!

To all the posters who have been saying that "Carr was treated with kid gloves", etc. You guys were RIGHT ON! Good job on calling it like it was, I personally didn't know enough inside info to know better, but now I am plugged into this "pipeline".

After reading that, I have tons of faith Carr will be that vocal leader, being pushed hard and called out on mistakes will ONLY make him stronger. He has the character, he has gotten up 208 times before.

Look for Carr to blow it up this season, he gets a chance to prove himself all over again and being held accountable will have much more respect from his teamates. Why would Kubiak ride him so hard, say the things he has said, and stand behind him?

Get ready for a new era in Texan Football! Kubiak is building this team for the long haul.

swtbound07
08-04-2006, 09:05 PM
He didn't sandbag anything, man.

That's what you WANT to see so that you can act as if you are diagnosing a problem that nobody else can see.

All the head coaching candidates said Carr is the man, and Kubiak definitely thinks he is the man. And a billionaire thinks he is the man. And you, with all of ONE post, who has absolutely no hand in NFL operations, sits there and rag the guy and then rag us for cheering our guy.

Wake up, man: He's the QB. If you want to see us succeed, you'll stop the "I'm smarter than you are" act and get on board with the very real fact that the Texans' success is directly tied to the success of David Carr. The two are inseparable.

Of course, I guess you can always root for him to fail so that he gets thrown off the team...and that's what puzzles me about the anti-Car crowd. They actually want us to lose and suffer so they can be proven right. And yet you say WE are stupid for rooting for his success, for believing in the guy.

Amazing.

Thats not true, and I can prove it. I would say a reasonable survey of this board would prove that Im sufficiently "anti-carr" enough to respond to this...but i do not, repeat, do NOT want him or us to fail to prove me right. I've said repeatedly i HOPE im wrong about everything i've said about him and he becomes great. I just flat out don't see it happening. I don't believe in him, and I have no confidence in him as a player......but im getting all of this out in the offseason. if he does well, i will be the first in line for my crow...but to imply that to be anti-carr is to be anti-texan is ridiculous.....we ALL want the same thing....texan's victories, where we disagree is in how to get there.

Carr Bombed
08-04-2006, 09:27 PM
That is not what I "want" to see but I was commenting on Carr's makeup as a leader and his inability to lead his team because he failed to let the old regime in on the fact that the NFL isn't Pop Warner football.

This is the biggest load of ............. I've read in quite sometime. Some of yall just sound rediculous, so not only is Carr supposed to be a elite player playing under a incompetent coaching staff, now he's to blame because he didn't tell Capers and Palmer how to do THEIR job. Carr coached us to a losing record, because he failed to teach Capers and Palmer the X's and O's of the game. Some of yall are the biggest hypocrites. The same person who posted this will probably blast a player for not being a "team guy" (I'm sure when Keyshawn wrote "give me the damn ball", he thought he was helping his team too), but then turns around and blasts a player for not challenging and speaking out against, or in this case, coaching his coaches.


P.S.........

and please will people get off of the LEADER tag, that is the most overrated thing on this board. Leaders are born with winning. Capers scheme prevents WINNING, There is no way Carr is going to become a LEADER of this team going 4-12, 5-11, 7-9, and a dismal 2-14

I went over this in another thread so I'll just post the link.

As far as us not going anywhere, "with Carr leading this team". Its funny how all the "great leaders", played on great teams.

Steve Young was a "Great Leader", that lead his team's to championship, funny how when he was with Tampa Bay, and surrounded with absolute crap he was a hack of a QB and was destined to be a career back up.

Its funny how when Bradshaw came into the league he struggled, but soon became a gritty leader about the same time his receivers developed and the team fielded quite possibly the greatest defensive team of a decade.

Its funny how a 6th round pick can come into the league and is now regarded as a great "leader" playing behind one of the best Olines, defenses, defensive guru of a coach, top flight O coordinator, and won two of his Superbowls with the right foot of his kicker.

Its funny how Bret Favre is considered a field General, but as soon as his Offensive line falls apart, as well as the talent level of the players around him, he no longer holds that title.


http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=359656#post359656

I've heard of QBs getting to much blame and to much credit, but this takes it to a whole other level.

If we could do it all over again I wish we never drafted Carr, only because it is nearly impossible for a rookie QB to succeed on a expansion team. Expansion teams should pick up a vet to hold down the fort for about three years while the team builds an actual NFL caliber team, especially a NFL OLINE and then look for their Franchise QB.

Carr Bombed
08-04-2006, 09:28 PM
Oh yeah....anybody the has ESPN insider, can you please give us a run down about what that article about Mario said.........thank you

thunderkyss
08-04-2006, 09:31 PM
He didn't sandbag anything, man.

Wake up, man: He's the QB. If you want to see us succeed, you'll stop the "I'm smarter than you are" act and get on board with the very real fact that the Texans' success is directly tied to the success of David Carr. The two are inseparable.

Amazing.

So what does last years failure say about our QB??

Texans_Chick
08-04-2006, 09:33 PM
you ever played a sport before (at a serious level)? If you had you would understand that there is a difference between working hard and working smart. I have no doubts that most players on the team physically worked their tails off. That doesn't necessarily make you any better at all. Carr's point is that, during the capers regime, there was no system to buy into, no real purpose in their efforts. They all wanted to be better but they didnt truly know how.

you are so far off base it's ridiculous.


I need to fashion a tin foil hat.

It seems as though someone here has a device to read my thoughts.

It would be frightening to have a continuous transcriber of those things in my brain.

Honest and direct. Well said.

thunderkyss
08-04-2006, 09:59 PM
I think this post is the best you've made since I've been reading this MB. Good job TK. Welcome to optimism.:whip: :bananasplit:

I'm very optomistic about the Texans in '06, and have been, since Kubiak came over....... players & coaches following him..... getting Sherman to help.... signing Weaver(big Tough run stopper, with a lot of years ahead of him)... and then geting Moulds, and other vets, with both age & experience, accolades and what not, for very reasonable contracts....

All this you have to pay to get players to want to come to Houston poppy-****.... if players think you'll put them in a position to win, provide them a stage to say what they want to say, prove their point, they'll come...

I'm also optomistic about what David Carr will do.... I agree he has all the tangibles..... and he's tough as nails....... he's got some good qualities, but he's been screwing up... he needs to change that.

People may think I'm wiered, but I'm also fans of Aaron Brooks, and Joey Harrington. IMHO, when I put David with that group, it's a compliment. I would like to see them succeed just as much as I'd like to see David succeed.. I think Aaron is the most Talented of the bunch, but I'll rag on him just as much as I do David....... Joey, I think he's got Moxie....... spunk..... he's fun to watch, and I'd love to see him win more. All three were put in bad situations........ Joey and Aaron both went to organizations that have no clue what it takes to be succesful. Brooks has had more talent than David has, but I think Haslette was worse than Capers ever could be.

two things upset me............ about this message board.

For the most part, the members are quick to replace Domanick Davis... Man's given up his body or this team, and he has produced more than any one person on the roster. He doesn't have breakaway speed...... a lot of successful backs didn't have breakaway speed..... He's got heart, and all the other intangibles that are hard to find.... when you got a guy like that, you work through his injuries, and do everything to make sure he understands he is your man, until he proves he can't be the man.

And David...... the :homer: 's around here are unbeleiveable...... sometimes I'm just fishing..... sometimes...... I'm being honest....

thunderkyss
08-04-2006, 10:04 PM
T-Kyss...you are right on...I am not as optimistic as Ibar and his 13 wins, but I really believe we can win 10-11 games. Heck...just throw out 2005 and look at what the roster was in 2004 when we won 7.


WE WILL BEAT INDY THIS YEAR...I think they will be ripe for the taking in week 2 which will put us starting off 2-0. When that happens...look out!!!

I'm also predicting 13 wins........

After Preseason, we may have more information that may force me to re-evaluate my position. But from my point of view......... right now, I think we'll have homefield advantage in the AFC Championship game.

vtech9
08-04-2006, 10:05 PM
Oh yeah....anybody the has ESPN insider, can you please give us a run down about what that article about Mario said.........thank you
it was posted here on HPF.com (http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6401)

thunderkyss
08-04-2006, 10:14 PM
I am just as excited but I still have reservations over the defensive backs, linebackers and offensive lines, 3 areas of concern that we had last year. With the injuries piling up, it's going to only be tougher. The first preseason game is going to tell all.

I feel really good about CC Brown, and GlennEarl... of Course Dunta, and with TJ and Mario causing havok up front, I think PBuc will probably lead our team in INTs....... with Faggins hurt(I think) and the thing with McKinzie.... we may be hurting at depth at thos positions....

But I'll live with that, since we now have so much depth at every other position.... we're stacked on the OLine, and the DLine. 7 & 8 man rotations......... wow.... we're deep at wide Recievers, RB.... we're going to have to let some really good prospects walk...... and how many tightends have we got?? JoPpru..... Putz..... Owens..... the kid who played in NFLE.......

Linebackers........ once again, with Payne, TJ, Robair, and Mario..... the phrase shooting ducks in a barrell comes to mind. Our linebackers are going to have a great year.

and offensive line is the least of my worries.... Talent on the OLine was never our problem...... With Kubiak and Sherman, we have nothing to worry about.... nothing at all.

thunderkyss
08-04-2006, 10:18 PM
Thats not true, and I can prove it. I would say a reasonable survey of this board would prove that Im sufficiently "anti-carr" enough to respond to this...but i do not, repeat, do NOT want him or us to fail to prove me right. I've said repeatedly i HOPE im wrong about everything i've said about him and he becomes great. I just flat out don't see it happening. I don't believe in him, and I have no confidence in him as a player......but im getting all of this out in the offseason. if he does well, i will be the first in line for my crow...but to imply that to be anti-carr is to be anti-texan is ridiculous.....we ALL want the same thing....texan's victories, where we disagree is in how to get there.

Count me in with swtbound07.... I'll criticize Carr, because the CLs..... make it fun.

but I want Carr to succeed soooooo badly......

thunderkyss
08-04-2006, 10:24 PM
Its funny how a 6th round pick can come into the league and is now regarded as a great "leader" playing behind one of the best Olines, defenses, defensive guru of a coach, top flight O coordinator, and won two of his Superbowls with the right foot of his kicker.

And nobody cared about any of those guys, until Brady started winning with that team..... something they couldn't do with a bonafide ProBowlwer who led his team to the SuperBowl behind one of the greatest coaches of our time.

The year Brady took the Patriots to, and won the SuperBowl, he got sacked 41 times.... that great offensive line gave up like 50 sacks that year. Brady gave them something to believe in, something to play for.....

dtran04
08-04-2006, 10:30 PM
For all the "leader" lovers, Ken Dorsey says hello. :)

Carr Bombed
08-04-2006, 11:22 PM
And nobody cared about any of those guys, until Brady started winning with that team..... something they couldn't do with a bonafide ProBowlwer who led his team to the SuperBowl behind one of the greatest coaches of our time.

The year Brady took the Patriots to, and won the SuperBowl, he got sacked 41 times.... that great offensive line gave up like 50 sacks that year. Brady gave them something to believe in, something to play for.....

You can sit here and say that nobody cared about "any of those guys", but that doesn't matter, "those guys" formed a complete team, which enabled a very good Tom Brady (I'm not taking anything from him) to win a championship.

It took a tuck rule and one of the clutchest kicks in the history of the NFL to send them to the Superbowl and another kick to win it.

Again, I'm not taking anything from Tom he made all the plays he had to, but he had a TEAM to back him up. That team was lead by their defense.

If you want to see the difference from a complete team and a team thats not complete, pull up Tom's stats from the 2001 season and pull up David's stats from 2004, their almost identical, one won the superbowl, the other went 7-9.

People say look at Tom Brady, do you honestly think Tom Brady would of lead the 2004 Texans to a superbowl victory.

Teams win, Teams win championships, Great teams have Great Leaders.

Name me a Great QB Leader playing on a crappy football team.

If Chris Simms' receiver would of caught that perfectly thrown pass for a touchdown in last years playoffs, we would be talking about how Simms LEAD them to a victory, but the receiver dropped the ball and nobody including the media talks about Simms.

Big Ben is considered a "BORN" Leader, it just happens he was drafted to the most complete football team.

Tom Brady is considered a natural "Born" leader, it just so happens he took over a complete football team at a time when all the right pieces fell in place.

Don't bring up Tom's sack stats, over the last 4 years Tom has been sacked 115 times, over the last 4 years David has been sacked 208 times.

again this is why I don't like to get into these discussions, I'm more than willing to let it play out of the field.

I have no problem if somebody has doubts about Carr, this is a message board everybody has their opinion, just bring some reasonable argument, not trash the guy because he didn't tell the coaches how to do their job (its not his job, place, or responsibility to do so) or put all the coaches faults and short commings strictly on Carr's shoulders.

This is a put up or shutup year for carr, if he can't cut it Kubiak will get someone who can. Thats one thing I've gotten out of Kubiak so far, he doesn't put up with any crap, if you can't cut it, you'll get cut, but he will work with you to make you the best player you can be, something that Carr has never had.

If you look at all the moves under Capers when has he ever supported Carr.

Look at some of the free agent moves


Most of them were defense, Capers side of the ball, but look at the ones on offense.

Mark Bruener TE (I beleive Capers tried to copy the Steelers and their power running game)

Todd Wade, He paid top dollar for a Tackle, just on the wrong side of the line (again in a attempt of his power running game)

Capers was content at having Bradford as a #2 receiver and content after giving up 50 sacks, bringing in LT Victor Riley (I can't even call that guy a LT with a straight face)

The biggest thing I got out of the article was Carr flat out wasn't coached.

This isn't the first time I have thought this, Carr has stated before that he loves that Kubiak is here so he has someone to talk to that actually knows the position.

Capers pretty much just said, Carr go out there and just run the plays we call, which is a reason why we were so predictable. Kubiak gives him multiple options. Under Capers, Carr was a extension of Capers. Under Kubiak he'll be able to run the offense with freedom. Remember the stats Carr put up calling his own plays, I don't think thats a coincidence

kbourda
08-05-2006, 12:26 AM
I hope you are right about eating crow because that would be a refreshing change from what I am basing my OPINION on. But keep clinging to that lifesaver of hope...

That is not what I "want" to see but I was commenting on Carr's makeup as a leader and his inability to lead his team because he failed to let the old regime in on the fact that the NFL isn't Pop Warner football. More importantly, it seems that you, not I, need an article by Michael Smith to feel better about Carr who, to date, has not lived up to expectations.

"Wake up, man: He's the QB. If you want to see us succeed, you'll stop the "I'm smarter than you are" act and get on board with the very real fact that the Texans' success is directly tied to the success of David Carr. The two are inseparable."

Interesting. It makes perfect sense that you and I are opposite sides of the coin with this one--the two are inseparable. This is why I believe the Texans cannot move forward with Carr at quarterback. But again, that is my opinion.

I don't profess to be "smarter" than anyone else, but I have more to base my opinion on than "because Michael Smith said so" and am not seeking affirmation from anyone. Sad to say it, but Carr's hair has made more news than his play on the field.

Blind faith is for religion, not Carr.

Highroller28, you get my vote for best post in this thread so far. I feel the problem on this board is that we have the "mom and dad" type of fan. You understand? The "mom" always has a soft place in her heart for the kids, often feels her children can do no wrong. Then there is the "dad" the stern tough love kind of approach. Wants what is best for his children as well but not willing to give them a "pass" just because. I like Carr as a person, I really do. But, he has a bunch to prove before I can say he's the one. I'm just not willing to say that right now. My expectations for this year are very simple. Take it one game at a time. Be it 0 to 19 wins, just show me that you are ready to compete.

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 02:14 AM
You can sit here and say that nobody cared about "any of those guys", but that doesn't matter, "those guys" formed a complete team, which enabled a very good Tom Brady (I'm not taking anything from him) to win a championship.


So are you saying the Patriots would have won that SuperBowl if Bledsoe hadn't got hurt??

I really don't think so.... and when we talk about it, that's the difference that would make all those other....."nobodies" play like somebodies.. that is what happened in NewEngland.

Tom Brady gave those guys something to believe in...... somehow, he made them feel like they were better than what they had been until then.....

Ben did the same thing..... that team had pretty much reached their plateau...... they had peeked...... then Ben provided that spark...... inspired them to play harder, for 4 quarters.....

texan279
08-05-2006, 02:22 AM
So are you saying the Patriots would have won that SuperBowl if Bledsoe hadn't got hurt??

I really don't think so.... and when we talk about it, that's the difference that would make all those other....."nobodies" play like somebodies.. that is what happened in NewEngland.

Tom Brady gave those guys something to believe in...... somehow, he made them feel like they were better than what they had been until then.....

Ben did the same thing..... that team had pretty much reached their plateau...... they had peeked...... then Ben provided that spark...... inspired them to play harder, for 4 quarters.....

Do you have any quotes or links for this or is this just your opinion?

mexican_texan
08-05-2006, 02:24 AM
These posts seem more like books...

We should wait until the pre-season to see how Carr leads the team and makes the calls before we can make an accurate judgement. I don't believe we have seen the real David Carr, just a student of a...well...unsuccessful regime.

Carr Bombed
08-05-2006, 02:55 AM
So are you saying the Patriots would have won that SuperBowl if Bledsoe hadn't got hurt??

I really don't think so.... and when we talk about it, that's the difference that would make all those other....."nobodies" play like somebodies.. that is what happened in NewEngland.

Tom Brady gave those guys something to believe in...... somehow, he made them feel like they were better than what they had been until then.....

Ben did the same thing..... that team had pretty much reached their plateau...... they had peeked...... then Ben provided that spark...... inspired them to play harder, for 4 quarters.....

I'm not saying the Patriots would have won the Superbowl if bledsoe hadn't got hurt.

I'm saying all the right pieces fell into place

I could easily flip this on you and ask you do you think Tom would of won the Superbowl, without his steller defense and the right foot of his kicker.

"He gave them something to beleive in", just isn't true. Belichick gave them something to beleive in, he went in there installed his sytem and fielded a formidable defense, that had many emerging stars that year.

You do realize that defense held the greatest show on turf to only 3 points heading into the 4th quarter don't you. Tom's offense only had 17 on plenty of offensive possesions and great field position. They same defense that knocked the high powered Colts out of the playoffs year after year, (but what happened last year when their defense was shaky, the Colt blew the Pats out at their own home, where was Brady in that game.)

They won because of their defense and solid QB play, again the had a great team.

Also I think your giving Big Ben to much credit and the Steelers didn't reach a plateau and they didn't peak either. They had alot of young defensive players that came into their own, forming one of the league's best defenses. They had a solid receiving core in Ward and Randle El and the league's best power running game.

Ben and Tom didn't inspire their teamates to play harder, winning inspired them to play harder, having zero weaknesses allowed them to win. All the peices fell into place and with great coaching and players they formed solid teams (offense, defense, and special teams).

Tom and Ben made the plays they needed to make, but their teamates gave them the opportunity to make plays, it goes hand in hand. Winning cures all, winning creates leaders, and it takes solid all around teams, to win.

Look at Leftwich in Jax, those fans consider him a great leader, to me he's one of the most overrated QBs in the game, but has a great chance to win, because of his defense. Since he has a solid team to win with, he's a LEADER of men. Put that immobile, slow release, often injured guy behind our line and he's a bust.

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 03:18 AM
I'm not saying the Patriots would have won the Superbowl if bledsoe hadn't got hurt.

I'm saying all the right pieces fell into place

I could easily flip this on you and ask you do you think Tom would of won the Superbowl, without his steller defense and the right foot of his kicker.

"He gave them something to beleive in", just isn't true. Belichick gave them something to beleive in, he went in there installed his sytem and fielded a formidable defense, that had many emerging stars that year.

But they just weren't getting it done with Bledsoe..........

You do realize that defense held the greatest show on turf to only 3 points heading into the 4th quarter don't you. Tom's offense only had 17 on plenty of offensive possesions and great field position. They same defense that knocked the high powered Colts out of the playoffs year after year, (but what happened last year when their defense was shaky, the Colt blew the Pats out at their own home, where was Brady in that game.)

Where was Belicheck??

They won because of their defense and solid QB play, again the had a great team.

If Drew played, I gaurantee they would not have won..

Also I think your giving Big Ben to much credit and the Steelers didn't reach a plateau and they didn't peak either. They had alot of young defensive players that came into their own, forming one of the league's best defenses. They had a solid receiving core in Ward and Randle El and the league's best power running game.

They were starting Tommy Maddox, and signed Charlie Batch just in case.. they were going nowhere, fast......

Ben and Tom didn't inspire their teamates to play harder, winning inspired them to play harder, having zero weaknesses allowed them to win. All the peices fell into place and with great coaching and players they formed solid teams (offense, defense, and special teams).

blah blah......... blah, blah,blah.......... blah, blah.. blah, blah,blah, blah........

Tom and Ben made the plays they needed to make, but their teamates gave them the opportunity to make plays, it goes hand in hand. Winning cures all, winning creates leaders, and it takes solid all around teams, to win.

only if you're waiting around for something to happen...... you can be like the Patriots, and wait 10 years 'till bledsoe takes you back to the Superbowl......... or you can jumpstart your team, with some fresh meat.

Look at Leftwich in Jax, those fans consider him a great leader, to me he's one of the most overrated QBs in the game, but has a great chance to win, because of his defense. Since he has a solid team to win with, he's a LEADER of men. Put that immobile, slow release, often injured guy behind our line and he's a bust.

I like Leftwich..... when a guy has as many faults as you've listed, and he still comes out winning, he's got that extra something....... that it...

TK_Gamer
08-05-2006, 04:00 AM
sorry , I still believe they have 55 guys on the roster for a reason, they have like 15 coaches for a reason, cuz it takes all that to win, its a team sport.

tsip
08-05-2006, 04:05 AM
"Do you have any quotes or links for this or is this just your opinion?"


...quotes or links? This is 'cool.'

ocd
08-05-2006, 04:27 AM
I know I've predicted us to win the AFC South this year...... Man I'm really excited about '06...


Hey thunderkyss,

I, too, have gone out on a limb and predicted we finish 2nd in the division winning two road games. Not as bold a prediction as yours but still.

Off topic, I see you're from PA...I was born at St Mary's...:bananasplit:

Is Monseaux's still in business? That was some gooood food for a place that looked like it was vacant/abandoned.

ocd
08-05-2006, 04:37 AM
He has the character, he has gotten up 208 times before.

Look for Carr to blow it up this season, he gets a chance to prove himself all over again and being held accountable will have much more respect from his teamates. Why would Kubiak ride him so hard, say the things he has said, and stand behind him?

Get ready for a new era in Texan Football! Kubiak is building this team for the long haul.


Dude I agree so much with your thoughts. Carr has such a big heart. After all the abuse he still has a great attitude.

Now just let him throw for 3500 yards and 25 TD's and that guy is gonna be on top of the world...2007 season would then be crazy!

bigtex77
08-05-2006, 08:31 AM
I'm sorry, but Eric Karabell (the guy who has the "Fantasy Take" about halfway down the page) has got to be John Clayton's illegitimate son. :offtopic

Carr Bombed
08-05-2006, 09:32 AM
But they just weren't getting it done with Bledsoe..........

Where was Belicheck??

If Drew played, I gaurantee they would not have won..

They were starting Tommy Maddox, and signed Charlie Batch just in case.. they were going nowhere, fast......

blah blah......... blah, blah,blah.......... blah, blah.. blah, blah,blah, blah........

only if you're waiting around for something to happen...... you can be like the Patriots, and wait 10 years 'till bledsoe takes you back to the Superbowl......... or you can jumpstart your team, with some fresh meat.


I like Leftwich..... when a guy has as many faults as you've listed, and he still comes out winning, he's got that extra something....... that it...

What do you not understand when I say, "ALL THE PIECES FELL INTO PLACE". You act like Tom and Ben were the whole puzzle, they weren't

My point is the Texans only have half the puzzle.

I'm not sitting around "waiting for something to happen", I'm watching my team solidify all their holes.

tsip
08-05-2006, 09:49 AM
"Sit back and watch. And then grab a fork when we bring you a big plate of crow to eat in about two months."

...ok, but don't forget, you've got a seat at the same table and-if you're wrong-we've got a 'big' helping for you since you mention crow in most of your posts...too, there is no running and hiding this year like last year or changing your 'handle'.

Carr Bombed
08-05-2006, 10:26 AM
misunderstanding

Kaiser Toro
08-05-2006, 10:38 AM
Of course, I guess you can always root for him to fail so that he gets thrown off the team...and that's what puzzles me about the anti-Car crowd. They actually want us to lose and suffer so they can be proven right. And yet you say WE are stupid for rooting for his success, for believing in the guy.

Amazing.

Easily one of the worst posts I have seen on this board.

tsip
08-05-2006, 11:40 AM
First off I never talk about "eating crow", in fact if you go through my post history I have never talked about eating crow.

On that note though, even if Carr fails I still have no crow to eat on the things I said in this thread, because all of them are true regardless.

Points I have made

Carr has played on a flawed team from front office on down the last 4 years - fact

Carr hasn't played on a very good team with tons of holes - fact

It takes a solid team to be successful in the NFL - fact

Ben and Tom play on complete teams - fact

How is Carr failing going to change those facts, nope I have no crow waiting for me.

Also, I didn't run and hide last year, I was busy serving my country and I'm not going to change my handle, I've had it since I joined the board. 2 1/2 years ago.

ck out the name in the header of my post

swtbound07
08-05-2006, 12:47 PM
Easily one of the worst posts I have seen on this board.


I don't think your giving me enough credit KT

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2006, 01:30 PM
"Wake up, man: He's the QB. If you want to see us succeed, you'll stop the "I'm smarter than you are" act and get on board with the very real fact that the Texans' success is directly tied to the success of David Carr. The two are inseparable"

This statement is so true...now, if you can just guarantee that 'success', we'll be all set!! Heck, we can for go the season and just 'wallow' in the 'inevitable.' I'm still trying to picture Johnny Unitas letting himself get 'coddled' for 4 years...

How does someone not let themselves be coddled? If your coaching staff is treating you with kid gloves and you go to them and say,"Hey. Treat me like the other players." That coaching staff is just going to turn and look at each other and say,"Awwww, how cute." If you're being coddled, there's nothing you can do about it. You can try to spend time with the other players and fit in but if that coaching staff treats you different, you can only try to minimize the damage. It doesn't matter if you're Johnny U or Jim McMahon or Peyton Manning, if you're being coddled by the staff, there's nothing you can do to change it.

And turn that around. What if you were being coddled at your work? You've got to enjoy it at least a little bit. And you're going to turn down the money or are you going to take it? In my last job, I got into a situation where I was horribly underutilized. They were paying me very good money to just sit around in case they needed me (when I was first hired, I came in and saved all their asses). I can't blame Carr for taking that money because I don't think there's anyone alive with half a brain who wouldn't have in that situation. I expect Carr to really blossom with the new responsibility and training.

But... as I'e said before... I don't think Carr needs to improve his play very much to be a very successful QB. He just needs a team around him.

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2006, 01:45 PM
So are you saying the Patriots would have won that SuperBowl if Bledsoe hadn't got hurt??

I don't think it was about Brady's Leadership as much as it was about the team not thinking it had a Pro Bowler to rely on anymore. At the time, I thought that Bledsoe going down brought that team together, not the fact that Brady walked in. With Bledsoe as the QB, I felt like that team thought,"Hey, we've got a Pro Bowl QB who's been to the SB. We can win games just because he's back there with that big arm." Then when Bledsoe goes down, they have to circle the wagons, simplify the offense, rely more on the running game, and really step on defense. And they did. And they were lucky as hell.

It was almost the same thing with Pittsburgh. Look at how differently they called plays with Maddox in there vs. Roethlisburger. When Maddox went down, they simplified their offense and became more of a running team again. And their defense stepped up. Way up. In this case, I really think it's more of a case of the coaching staff calling games better without Maddox in there. They were more limited in the plays they felt comfy with and that simpler offense was a better offense.

But that's just me...

tsip
08-05-2006, 02:14 PM
How does someone not let themselves be coddled? If your coaching staff is treating you with kid gloves and you go to them and say,"Hey. Treat me like the other players." That coaching staff is just going to turn and look at each other and say,"Awwww, how cute." If you're being coddled, there's nothing you can do about it. You can try to spend time with the other players and fit in but if that coaching staff treats you different, you can only try to minimize the damage. It doesn't matter if you're Johnny U or Jim McMahon or Peyton Manning, if you're being coddled by the staff, there's nothing you can do to change it.

And turn that around. What if you were being coddled at your work? You've got to enjoy it at least a little bit. And you're going to turn down the money or are you going to take it? In my last job, I got into a situation where I was horribly underutilized. They were paying me very good money to just sit around in case they needed me (when I was first hired, I came in and saved all their asses). I can't blame Carr for taking that money because I don't think there's anyone alive with half a brain who wouldn't have in that situation. I expect Carr to really blossom with the new responsibility and training.

But... as I'e said before... I don't think Carr needs to improve his play very much to be a very successful QB. He just needs a team around him.

With regard to all the QBs that have played in the NFL, Carr is in 'select' company when it comes to being 'coddled.'...just over the past few years, we've seen a lot of high drafted QBs fall by the way side, victims of teams that equated 'big money' with 'big success' and sooner than later. In fact, regardless of any circumstances, I can't think of a single QB that has been handled the way Carr has--

In the real world, ineffective mgrs who do not get desired results don't last long--too, being a mgr/leader is not a 'passive' resposiblity. The saying goes that 'you can lead or you can follow or you can get the heck out of the way.' When most people are put in a leadership role, they want to make things happen-they want to get the job done-they have no desire to be a 'patsy,' a person that just wants a paycheck. Personally, I think it's a 'slap in the face' to say Carr is here for a 'free ride' because that has been the way others have meant for it to be...but, wait, he's going to turn it all around-accept his leadership role-get desired results on the field, and lead us to a Super Bowl.**

...**as long as everything is the way it should be...

tsip
08-05-2006, 02:20 PM
"How does someone not let themselves be coddled?"

Are you serious? How long are you going to be in business if you 'coddle' your employees? As an employee, are you going to take pride in being the one who doesn't have to do their job because you are 'coddled?' You missed the point about Unitas...

GP
08-05-2006, 02:23 PM
So what does last years failure say about our QB??

I had typed an exhaustive reply to you, to Kaiser Toro, and to others...

And then I realized this: I have been in Carr's corner for a long time now.

Most of us with a clear memory will always remember who cheered Carr when the chips were down, and we'll remember who jeered Carr when the chips were down. That'll never change. It's easier to remember those who jeered him because it's a far shorter list than the list of those who cheered him. And let's make no mistake about it, you guys would have had no problem with us drafting Vince Young. None whatsoever. It doesn't make a bad Texans fan or anything, but it says volumes about the "loyalty" factor. Volumes.

When in doubt, always root FOR a guy...not against him.

swtbound07
08-05-2006, 02:27 PM
I had typed an exhaustive reply to you, to Kaiser Toro, and to others...

And then I realized this: I have been in Carr's corner for a long time now.

Most of us with a clear memory will always remember who cheered Carr when the chips were down, and we'll remember who jeered Carr when the chips were down. That'll never change. It's easier to remember those who jeered him because it's a far shorter list than the list of those who cheered him. And let's make no mistake about it, you guys would have had no problem with us drafting Vince Young. None whatsoever. It doesn't make a bad Texans fan or anything, but it says volumes about the "loyalty" factor. Volumes.

When in doubt, always root FOR a guy...not against him.

And when NOT in doubt......point out that Carr is a terrible quarterback. Lovely that you support him when the chips are down, but Im going to call a spade a spade and a lousy qb a lousy qb. Yeah, I wanted Vince...so what? Im not loyal to david carr...im loyal to the texans, and i believe carr is BAD for the texans. What choice do i have BUT to be anti-carr??

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 02:40 PM
I don't think it was about Brady's Leadership as much as it was about the team not thinking it had a Pro Bowler to rely on anymore. At the time, I thought that Bledsoe going down brought that team together, not the fact that Brady walked in. With Bledsoe as the QB, I felt like that team thought,"Hey, we've got a Pro Bowl QB who's been to the SB. We can win games just because he's back there with that big arm." Then when Bledsoe goes down, they have to circle the wagons, simplify the offense, rely more on the running game, and really step on defense. And they did. And they were lucky as hell.

It was almost the same thing with Pittsburgh. Look at how differently they called plays with Maddox in there vs. Roethlisburger. When Maddox went down, they simplified their offense and became more of a running team again. And their defense stepped up. Way up. In this case, I really think it's more of a case of the coaching staff calling games better without Maddox in there. They were more limited in the plays they felt comfy with and that simpler offense was a better offense.

But that's just me...


I can see how you can think what you think...... that's reasonable enough...

I just see it differently.

tsip
08-05-2006, 02:48 PM
I had typed an exhaustive reply to you, to Kaiser Toro, and to others...

And then I realized this: I have been in Carr's corner for a long time now.

Most of us with a clear memory will always remember who cheered Carr when the chips were down, and we'll remember who jeered Carr when the chips were down. That'll never change. It's easier to remember those who jeered him because it's a far shorter list than the list of those who cheered him. And let's make no mistake about it, you guys would have had no problem with us drafting Vince Young. None whatsoever. It doesn't make a bad Texans fan or anything, but it says volumes about the "loyalty" factor. Volumes.

When in doubt, always root FOR a guy...not against him.

You've got serious problems respecting other posters opinions and have 'zero' clue about the concept of (1) people think Carr is the answer or (2) people do not think Carr is the answer. This concept has nothing to do with liking Carr or thinking whether or not he is/is not a good person. However-and this is where you have 'no clue'-posters in group 2 do not wish failure on Carr and would love for him to do well. These posters would love for the team to win, preferablly sooner than later. It must be tough for you to exist in a world where not everyone sees things your way..All your little 'comments' about 'I know who you are and where you live and I'm going to remind you for the rest of your life you were wrong about Carr...' are childish. But, you know what is really the sad point? If you're right, great--we all win. If you're wrong, what then? Life will go on for most posters w/o calling anyone out or making a 'see, I told you so' list--but what about you? Will you be OK?

Hookem Horns
08-05-2006, 02:52 PM
I don't have ESPN Insider but I like this quote ...

If for some reason you still question the logic of the Texans selecting Mario Williams first overall over Reggie Bush or Vince Young all you need to do is pay a visit to Reliant Stadium and watch Williams practice, watch him move. In fact, all you need to do, really, is look at Williams. He is the definition of a specimen.

Anyone who has the Insider, please give us some highlights of this article.

Wolf
08-05-2006, 02:54 PM
With regard to all the QBs that have played in the NFL, Carr is in 'select' company when it comes to being 'coddled.'...just over the past few years, we've seen a lot of high drafted QBs fall by the way side, victims of teams that equated 'big money' with 'big success' and sooner than later. In fact, regardless of any circumstances, I can't think of a single QB that has been handled the way Carr has--

In the real world, ineffective mgrs who do not get desired results don't last long--too, being a mgr/leader is not a 'passive' resposiblity. The saying goes that 'you can lead or you can follow or you can get the heck out of the way.' When most people are put in a leadership role, they want to make things happen-they want to get the job done-they have no desire to be a 'patsy,' a person that just wants a paycheck. Personally, I think it's a 'slap in the face' to say Carr is here for a 'free ride' because that has been the way others have meant for it to be...but, wait, he's going to turn it all around-accept his leadership role-get desired results on the field, and lead us to a Super Bowl.**

...**as long as everything is the way it should be...

I came in late on this ... ineffective Mgrs? if this is about Carr, well the Ineffective Mgr's did get the boot.. Capers and company.

I know that perceptions can be wrong, With the Capers it seemed to me if one person voiced a concern and it aired out in the media ...that kinda got that person sent to the bench or inactivated.

Wolf
08-05-2006, 02:56 PM
I don't have ESPN Insider but I like this quote ...



Anyone who has the Insider, please give us some highlights of this article.


hookem, I don't have the link but at www.houstonprofootball.com at their message board someone copied the link..

I will try to find the link

edit
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6401

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 02:59 PM
With regard to all the QBs that have played in the NFL, Carr is in 'select' company when it comes to being 'coddled.'...just over the past few years, we've seen a lot of high drafted QBs fall by the way side, victims of teams that equated 'big money' with 'big success' and sooner than later. In fact, regardless of any circumstances, I can't think of a single QB that has been handled the way Carr has--


Well, let's go with that..... I also believe TimCouch, Kelly Houlcomb, and a lot of QBs fall by the way side, like you said, unjustly.. I felt those teams handled those QBs poorly....... instead of expecting them to perform better, maybe they should have been trying to find the things those QBs need to be successful.. which I think is basically what we've done with Carr.

IMHO, whether a guy is drafted #1 overall, or comes in undrafted, he's got more talent than most of us...... and if he is playing in the NFL, then he has the talent to play in the NFL..... if he wants to be successfull, then he's going to need those intangibles...... heart most of all, for longevity.

Leadership is one of those intangibles.... but just like a strong arm, or a high release, it is possible for a QB to be successful without strong leadership skills...... I point to Dante Cullpepper...... he may be my favorite QB right now, but severely lacking in his Leadership abilities..... I feel David is lacking in this area as well....... exactly how much, I'm not sure...

Poise..... you know, keeping your cool when everything is falling around you... Does David have enough to be successfull in this league?? Hard to tell.... because we were that bad..... even worse..... but it's clear he didn't have enough to keep it together on this team..... good or bad??

Composure....... looking like a winner, walking out on the field, down by two scores, with only 6 minutes left on the clock....... not so cool, that you look lax, but cool enough to keep your team from panicking & becoming desperate.
Best I've ever seen........ was Randall Cunningham.... he was in a situation very similar to that, he was playing for the Cowboys, against the Vikings I believe.... John Madden, and the other commentators were like, "I don't see a sense of urgency... maybe Randall doesn't see the clock" and things like that. Randall walks out there all calm and everything, two/three plays latter, he throws an amazing touchdown pass...... Cowboys get the onside, and again. he just walks out there bam, bam,,,,,,,,,BAM..... another touchdown, and the Cowboys win....

Vision......... I swear to you it looks like David's vision must have shrunk since '02.... maybe that's a result of the sacks....... most likely... but he didn't see the field at all in '05.

Presence....... in '06, there were so many times it appeared David wasn't aware of where he was, and where the pressure was coming from..... again, maybe he's a little bit shell shocked...... & I can understand that....

And again, I'm not arguing from the point that we need to get rid of David... or that we'll never be successfull with Carr..... but the things I see lacking in Carr, are the things you can't teach.... things we have no idea if he's improved or not, and won't be able tell, till game time.....

I'm being optomistic about the future........ but I haven't forgot the past.

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2006, 03:00 PM
With regard to all the QBs that have played in the NFL, Carr is in 'select' company when it comes to being 'coddled.'...just over the past few years, we've seen a lot of high drafted QBs fall by the way side, victims of teams that equated 'big money' with 'big success' and sooner than later. In fact, regardless of any circumstances, I can't think of a single QB that has been handled the way Carr has--

In the real world, ineffective mgrs who do not get desired results don't last long--too, being a mgr/leader is not a 'passive' resposiblity. The saying goes that 'you can lead or you can follow or you can get the heck out of the way.' When most people are put in a leadership role, they want to make things happen-they want to get the job done-they have no desire to be a 'patsy,' a person that just wants a paycheck. Personally, I think it's a 'slap in the face' to say Carr is here for a 'free ride' because that has been the way others have meant for it to be...but, wait, he's going to turn it all around-accept his leadership role-get desired results on the field, and lead us to a Super Bowl.**

...**as long as everything is the way it should be...

The QB is a player. The Coach is the manager. And just like you've said, we had a manager (Coach) that coddled employees and MADE them ineffective. That Coach was ineffective and just like you said, didn't last too long.

In any sort of environment, you can WANT and TRY to make a difference all day long but in the wrong environment, there are times when you can't. If you're put in the wrong place, you will not be successful. Period. I don't care who you are or how great you are at what you do. If you give a great coach the wrong players, he's going to fail. If you put a great player on a bad team or in a bad system, he's going to fail. You can take a mediocre player and put him in a system that's right for him, and he'll make it to the Pro Bowl and win Superbowls. You can have a great player and not use him right, and he's not going to look great.

So.. What was Carr supposed to do? Was Carr supposed to ask to be traded and confirm that he's a prima donna? Should he have ignored the plays that were called and called other plays in the huddle and gotten himself benched? Or should he have been a "good employee" and done what he was told? Should he have trusted his coaches and done what they said? What would you have done in his situation? To me, it seems like a no-win situation.

I'm fine with people saying that Carr may or may not be a great QB. But sometimes it seems like people are going to take anything he's done or said and use that as an example of what a bad player he is.

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 03:07 PM
And when NOT in doubt......point out that Carr is a terrible quarterback. Lovely that you support him when the chips are down, but Im going to call a spade a spade and a lousy qb a lousy qb. Yeah, I wanted Vince...so what? Im not loyal to david carr...im loyal to the texans, and i believe carr is BAD for the texans. What choice do i have BUT to be anti-carr??


I'm with SWT here, calling a spade a spade...... but I'm rooting for CArr, and as swt will be rooting for the Texans, he'll be rooting for him as well.

While I don't believe Carr is a terrible QB, I do beleive he has played terribly last year. There were things I never expected to see from a 4 year vet....... a #1 overall, and things I definitely never wanted to see from a Texans QB...... & I'm just pointing them out.

and I hope like hell, David will be everybit the QB you, Kubiak, McNair, and all the other CLs think he can be..... because I told you so just won't do it, if Vince is half the QB I think he will be.

all I ask, when I say Carr assumed the fetal position before he was touched, don't call me a liar, and don't call it conjecture........ own it, because it happened more than once....... tell me why he did it.. tell me why he won't do it again..... but don't ignore it.

wags
08-05-2006, 03:08 PM
I think it's well established now who thinks Carr should stay and who thinks he should go. It's also pretty well established why people believe in him and why people think he sucks. The constant bombardment of regurgitating the same spewage by both sides is pretty unbelievable. I get that we talk about our players here, but after you post how crappy or good a player is for the 500th time, doesn't it get old?

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2006, 03:08 PM
"How does someone not let themselves be coddled?"

Are you serious? How long are you going to be in business if you 'coddle' your employees? As an employee, are you going to take pride in being the one who doesn't have to do their job because you are 'coddled?' You missed the point about Unitas...

I'm serious. If you're being coddled what do you do to be "uncoddled"? If someone is going to pay you a lot of money to sit around on your butt, are you going to turn it down? You can go to your bosses and you can tell them that you can do much more than they're asking of you but if they don't give you something that challenges you, what do you do? I've seen lots of situations in real life like this. Granted, I spent 13 years with Los Angeles County which might not exactly be "real life" but I've seen the same things happen in start-ups and small companies, too.

And what was the point about Unitas? You said that Unitas wouldn't sit around and be coddled like this. So you must know what he would have done in this situation. What would he have done? What would you want to have seen Carr do so that you could respect him?

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 03:10 PM
I came in late on this ... ineffective Mgrs? if this is about Carr, well the Ineffective Mgr's did get the boot.. Capers and company.

I know that perceptions can be wrong, With the Capers it seemed to me if one person voiced a concern and it aired out in the media ...that kinda got that person sent to the bench or inactivated.

So what........ it's tough being right...... it's even tougher to face the consequences of being right.

Hookem Horns
08-05-2006, 03:12 PM
hookem, I don't have the link but at www.houstonprofootball.com at their message board someone copied the link..

I will try to find the link

edit
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6401

Thanks man! Great read. Not regretting my Mario jersey purchase.

Wolf
08-05-2006, 03:13 PM
as I stated on the foxsports southwest report thread(from what i could read on the caption on the TV)

They were saying how Babin mentioned something about last season he was just to hold up the point of attack and then react.. This season they are attacking (which was what he was doing in college) and Babin is moving back to the position that he had in college.

Wolf
08-05-2006, 03:14 PM
So what........ it's tough being right...... it's even tougher to face the consequences of being right.


I lost you.

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 03:19 PM
as I stated on the foxsports southwest report thread(from what i could read on the caption on the TV)

They were saying how Babin mentioned something about last season he was just to hold up the point of attack and then react.. This season they are attacking (which was what he was doing in college) and Babin is moving back to the position that he had in college.


If Babin would have just done his job, the Wong could've been our Ray Lewis..... that's the way it works..... they all have their responsibilities, they all have to execute if they expect to be successfull.

and there are plenty of times when Babin was supposed to get in there, and get the QB...... the fact that sometimes he goes for broke, and sometimes he occupies a gap, he should be attacking two players, is part of the beauty that makes the 3-4 what it is.

Wolf
08-05-2006, 03:20 PM
If Babin would have just done his job, the Wong could've been our Ray Lewis..... that's the way it works..... they all have their responsibilities, they all have to execute if they expect to be successfull.

and there are plenty of times when Babin was supposed to get in there, and get the QB...... the fact that sometimes he goes for broke, and sometimes he occupies a gap, he should be attacking two players, is part of the beauty that makes the 3-4 what it is.


:hmmm: looks like we should have kept Capers and crew because it seems they weren't the problem and we should have traded/cut the players that weren't doing their job :sarcasm:

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2006, 03:21 PM
I'm with SWT here, calling a spade a spade...... but I'm rooting for CArr, and as swt will be rooting for the Texans, he'll be rooting for him as well.

While I don't believe Carr is a terrible QB, I do beleive he has played terribly last year. There were things I never expected to see from a 4 year vet....... a #1 overall, and things I definitely never wanted to see from a Texans QB...... & I'm just pointing them out.

and I hope like hell, David will be everybit the QB you, Kubiak, McNair, and all the other CLs think he can be..... because I told you so just won't do it, if Vince is half the QB I think he will be.

all I ask, when I say Carr assumed the fetal position before he was touched, don't call me a liar, and don't call it conjecture........ own it, because it happened more than once....... tell me why he did it.. tell me why he won't do it again..... but don't ignore it.

Now, see, I agree with this. Carr had a bad year last year. A lot of the time, he looked like he'd just totally given up. He got "Chrissy Everett" syndrome where he'd been hit so much that he was expecting to be hit. He knew he wasn't going to be protected... and he was usually right.

I don't know if he can come back from that. I've said that several times. This is my biggest fear for him. He's going to have to be mentally as tough as hell to be able to drop back and look at his receivers instead of watching the rush.

I have hope for him for several reasons but from the performance side, he never did what most QB's who are totally mentally broken start doing: he didn't start pitching picks left and right. Most guys when they get to the point that their totally un-fixable start throwing a ton of interceptions and as bad as he was, he still threw more TD's than picks.

I think he's a talented QB that was put into the wrong place at the wrong time and got bad coaching. I think his development has been severely impaired and I don't know if he'll be able to unlearn the bad stuff and get back on the right track.

I will defend him against accusations that I think are unreasonable. He may or may not be our QB for the future. We might need to ditch him and start fresh at some point but I'd like to see him in an offense where he can actually do something besides stare at the only receiver out on a pattern and then "assume the position".

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 03:22 PM
I lost you.


if your coach ain't putting you in a position to win, say something..... Air it to your coordinator, talk to your coach(like Vince did), talk to Bob..... last resort, call your own audibles..... if you get benched, you get benched.

If you are as talented as you think you are, you'll do all the wrong things, and still walk away with a $10million signing bonus, and a new 4 year contract with a team that aspires to win be in the Superbowl in '06(Terrell Owens).......

thunderkyss
08-05-2006, 03:23 PM
:hmmm: looks like we should have kept Capers and crew because it seems they weren't the problem and we should have traded/cut the players that weren't doing their job :sarcasm:

That's normally the way it works.... had David not been sacked more than 50 times a year for three of the last four years, Capers may very well still be here, even after 2-14......

Wolf
08-05-2006, 03:27 PM
if your coach ain't putting you in a position to win, say something..... Air it to your coordinator, talk to your coach(like Vince did), talk to Bob..... last resort, call your own audibles..... if you get benched, you get benched.

If you are as talented as you think you are, you'll do all the wrong things, and still walk away with a $10million signing bonus, and a new 4 year contract with a team that aspires to win be in the Superbowl in '06(Terrell Owens).......


if I am not mistaken issue were addressed at the end of 2004 season.. I have heard reports of Carr talking to OC , we heard McNair talking how they had to protect David Carr..well 2005 rolls around and they didn't and they are gone

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2006, 03:28 PM
if your coach ain't putting you in a position to win, say something..... Air it to your coordinator, talk to your coach(like Vince did), talk to Bob..... last resort, call your own audibles..... if you get benched, you get benched.

If you are as talented as you think you are, you'll do all the wrong things, and still walk away with a $10million signing bonus, and a new 4 year contract with a team that aspires to win be in the Superbowl in '06(Terrell Owens).......

That, I don't agree with. You gotta play within the system you're in. You've got to do what your coaches tell you to do. That's their job and that's your job. If you think something's not going right, you talk to your position coach, then maybe your coordinator; you voice your questions during meetings.

But you do NOT break the chain of command to the point of going to the coach or to the owner. You don't air your dirty laundry to the media. To me, that's all inexcusable behavior.

Wolf
08-05-2006, 03:29 PM
That's normally the way it works.... had David not been sacked more than 50 times a year for three of the last four years, Capers may very well still be here, even after 2-14......

..I posted without seeing this.. you might not be right, but seemed the players didn't buy into the system anymore defensively and offensively


actually, I think D-rob was the only one that voiced a concern publicly and not get benched.. (about week 13 or 14 last season?)

tsip
08-05-2006, 03:48 PM
The QB is a player. The Coach is the manager. And just like you've said, we had a manager (Coach) that coddled employees and MADE them ineffective. That Coach was ineffective and just like you said, didn't last too long.

In any sort of environment, you can WANT and TRY to make a difference all day long but in the wrong environment, there are times when you can't. If you're put in the wrong place, you will not be successful. Period. I don't care who you are or how great you are at what you do. If you give a great coach the wrong players, he's going to fail. If you put a great player on a bad team or in a bad system, he's going to fail. You can take a mediocre player and put him in a system that's right for him, and he'll make it to the Pro Bowl and win Superbowls. You can have a great player and not use him right, and he's not going to look great.

So.. What was Carr supposed to do? Was Carr supposed to ask to be traded and confirm that he's a prima donna? Should he have ignored the plays that were called and called other plays in the huddle and gotten himself benched? Or should he have been a "good employee" and done what he was told? Should he have trusted his coaches and done what they said? What would you have done in his situation? To me, it seems like a no-win situation.

I'm fine with people saying that Carr may or may not be a great QB. But sometimes it seems like people are going to take anything he's done or said and use that as an example of what a bad player he is.

First, you are assuming there was no communication between Capers/Coaches and Carr, because the 'powers to be' did not want input from Carr? What if the opposite was true? How coachable is Carr? Do you remember in Carr's first year when they had him throwing over a ladder to straighten out his throwing motion? Well, it didn't work. Why? TK had a good point when he mentioned that a lot of what is wrong with Carr is not physical stuff, so what is it? Carr has difficulty doing 'basic' stuff that is required to be a successful NFL QB, things like reading a defense-receiver progression-holding onto the ball-working the pocket/sensing the rush and knowing how to avoid it while still looking down field-making quick decisions, etc. Most of these items are a part of 'either a QB has it or he doesn't.' We can make a lot of changes to help Carr but thoses changes alone are not enough if Carr is unable to some how over come his 'weakneses.' IMO, a lot of posters have placed too much of Carr's problems on other people/schemes/play calling,etc. and,yes, these have all made a contribution to Carr's results on the field. Now, more than ever, I believe Kubiak is starting to sense this line of thinking that Carr's mental game/decision making is a bigger issue than he previously thought--for,example, keeping Carr 'upright' does not mean he will have no pressure because he will just about every time he takes a snap from center--question is will Carr avoid that pressure while looking down field/read the defense/go thru progression and determine the open receiver and get the ball to where it needs to be in a timely manner? Actually, protecting Carr may become the easiest part of the 'equation.' Finally, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how this new offense fits anything Carr has done before--pro or college. He has always been a pocket passer, not a roll out or moving QB by design (avg less than 2 ypc his SR yr), and has never spread his throws around (2 primary rec his SR yr at Fresno St). IMO, this offense is not based upon Carr strengths and may be difficult for him to grasp/execute...here's hoping I'm wrong...

Wolf
08-05-2006, 04:07 PM
I can agree with some of that.. all I can go on is Carr has mentioned in articles that this season it isn't a one read then dump the ball off.. (which Carr implied that was the offense that Capers ran)

as far as going through progressions ..what progressions? TE was staying in to help.. AJ was constantly doubled ... Bradford was about the only one to look at then it was DD..

but with the Cover 2 Bradford going long was not going to happen..

Yes, Kubiak has to get into Carr's head and get him to trust his teammates and his teammates to trust him. Carr has to trust his OL that they will give him atleast an average of a second or two more to make reads..

we will find out if the damage of not having an OL for 4 years took its toll on Carr..he has to learn to look downfield instead of looking at the rush. (that comes with trust).

go to the video threads and watch the 1st half of the cowboys game (only video that I have found).. I am not saying Carr was perfect in that game. I am saying that 1st half ..he threw short, threw long (a bullet in 2nd quarter part 5 on the videos).. he threw to the WR's/TE's..

I am not praising Carr on that one game.. but it gives me reason that if Kubiak can get his head straight..he can be a solid qb

and if Kubiak can't get him straight.. hello Brady Quinn next years draft.

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2006, 04:44 PM
First, you are assuming there was no communication between Capers/Coaches and Carr, because the 'powers to be' did not want input from Carr?

If Capers and the coaching staff were coddling Carr, what could Carr say to them to make them stop? If you don't respect someone (and if you're coddling someone, that's a distinct possibility), are you going to change what you're doing because they say something? If your 15 year old comes up to you and requests that you stop treating him like a boy, what's your reaction? I don't know what happened from year 3 to year 4 but Carr looked fine in year 3. It looked like they were asking him to make throws. Then in year 4, it looked like a totally different offense. It didn't look like Carr was being asked to do as much and it didn't look like he had as many tools to work with. I don't think Carr lost brain cells from year 3 to year 4... although I could be wrong about that.

What if the opposite was true? How coachable is Carr? Do you remember in Carr's first year when they had him throwing over a ladder to straighten out his throwing motion? Well, it didn't work. Why? TK had a good point when he mentioned that a lot of what is wrong with Carr is not physical stuff, so what is it? Carr has difficulty doing 'basic' stuff that is required to be a successful NFL QB, things like reading a defense-receiver progression-holding onto the ball-working the pocket/sensing the rush and knowing how to avoid it while still looking down field-making quick decisions, etc. Most of these items are a part of 'either a QB has it or he doesn't.' We can make a lot of changes to help Carr but thoses changes alone are not enough if Carr is unable to some how over come his 'weakneses.'

This is something that none of us can know so assuming it's true seems a bit wrong. From the quotes I've seen recently, last year's offense was all one read and dump. It seemed to me that he was capable of doing much more than that 2 years ago.

IMO, a lot of posters have placed too much of Carr's problems on other people/schemes/play calling,etc. and,yes, these have all made a contribution to Carr's results on the field. Now, more than ever, I believe Kubiak is starting to sense this line of thinking that Carr's mental game/decision making is a bigger issue than he previously thought--

What have you read that makes you think that Kubiak is starting to regret his decision for going with Carr? I haven't seen anything that's led me to believe that. There was the one quote about being pleasantly surprised with how much Carr retained coming into TC... but I read that more as a positive than a negative. Lots of QB's take time learning a new system.

GP
08-05-2006, 05:02 PM
if your coach ain't putting you in a position to win, say something..... Air it to your coordinator, talk to your coach(like Vince did), talk to Bob..... last resort, call your own audibles..... if you get benched, you get benched.

If you are as talented as you think you are, you'll do all the wrong things, and still walk away with a $10million signing bonus, and a new 4 year contract with a team that aspires to win be in the Superbowl in '06(Terrell Owens).......

Flawed logic, Thunderkyss.

Brown gave Young the "OK" to do what he wanted. Capers didn't give that to Carr. And Young WOULD HAVE been benched if Brown said "No" and Young did his own thing. No self-respecting coach lets a player run the ship. Even the best are subject to the leadership of their coach.

This is another bone that I have to pick with the Carr bashers, and it revolves around your idea that a player can just blatantly rebel against his coach, his authority figure, and get away with it if it works.

To me, Kubiak and the other head coaching candidates would not endorse Carr as strongly as they did if Carr had done what you are prescribing. Your idea is so flawed, it's not even funny.

"Undercut your authority to get it done..." is what you are saying.

Man, that's so 100% blatantly disrespectful to the very core of what the word "TEAM" means. What coach wants to inherit a QB or other player on the team who will do his own thing if the going gets tough?

This is one more notch, as far as I am concerned, on the pistol grip of why the Carr bashing is unfounded. You can't do your own thing in organized sports. Yeah, you can improvise in the heat of battle, but there ain't no freelancing it beforehand...and get away with it for very long.

Carr had the character to just keep getting his rear steamrolled, trying as best he could to support his coach's style while also staying alive, and Carr's suddenly a guy who won't "stand up and say something about it."

Next point for me to take on? I've been doing it for about 6 months now, so I'm getting pretty good at it. Or is this just another "bad post" as some are trying to say?

Wolf
08-05-2006, 05:09 PM
i agree with that..

when I think of undermining and doing your own thing to a coach.. Jeff George is the first person (next to t.o) that comes to mind..

GP
08-05-2006, 05:11 PM
You've got serious problems respecting other posters opinions and have 'zero' clue about the concept of (1) people think Carr is the answer or (2) people do not think Carr is the answer. This concept has nothing to do with liking Carr or thinking whether or not he is/is not a good person. However-and this is where you have 'no clue'-posters in group 2 do not wish failure on Carr and would love for him to do well. These posters would love for the team to win, preferablly sooner than later. It must be tough for you to exist in a world where not everyone sees things your way..All your little 'comments' about 'I know who you are and where you live and I'm going to remind you for the rest of your life you were wrong about Carr...' are childish. But, you know what is really the sad point? If you're right, great--we all win. If you're wrong, what then? Life will go on for most posters w/o calling anyone out or making a 'see, I told you so' list--but what about you? Will you be OK?

Hey man, I am defending my stance just like you are. Roll with the punches, k?

Let's get down to brass tacks: I would rather see the starting QB succeed, but you hate him. That's not me putting words in your mouth...you admit you don't like the guy and that you think he's bad for the team. That's YOU saying that. Check your posts.

In my world, it's one thing to criticize a player, but it's quite another to go to the lengths that you have gone. It's not a situation of you not being able to have your opinion...it's a situation of me being vigilant to respond to your posts and keep things on the level as I see fit.

I'll say it all day long: You're not a bad fan at all, but I so completely disagree with your standpoint that I am compelled to respond to it.

Go Texans!, and that includes our current starting QB.

Runner
08-05-2006, 05:15 PM
I wondered how this thread got so long. I should have known. :)

GP
08-05-2006, 05:19 PM
First, you are assuming there was no communication between Capers/Coaches and Carr, because the 'powers to be' did not want input from Carr? What if the opposite was true? How coachable is Carr? Do you remember in Carr's first year when they had him throwing over a ladder to straighten out his throwing motion? Well, it didn't work. Why? TK had a good point when he mentioned that a lot of what is wrong with Carr is not physical stuff, so what is it? Carr has difficulty doing 'basic' stuff that is required to be a successful NFL QB, things like reading a defense-receiver progression-holding onto the ball-working the pocket/sensing the rush and knowing how to avoid it while still looking down field-making quick decisions, etc. Most of these items are a part of 'either a QB has it or he doesn't.' We can make a lot of changes to help Carr but thoses changes alone are not enough if Carr is unable to some how over come his 'weakneses.' IMO, a lot of posters have placed too much of Carr's problems on other people/schemes/play calling,etc. and,yes, these have all made a contribution to Carr's results on the field. Now, more than ever, I believe Kubiak is starting to sense this line of thinking that Carr's mental game/decision making is a bigger issue than he previously thought--for,example, keeping Carr 'upright' does not mean he will have no pressure because he will just about every time he takes a snap from center--question is will Carr avoid that pressure while looking down field/read the defense/go thru progression and determine the open receiver and get the ball to where it needs to be in a timely manner? Actually, protecting Carr may become the easiest part of the 'equation.' Finally, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how this new offense fits anything Carr has done before--pro or college. He has always been a pocket passer, not a roll out or moving QB by design (avg less than 2 ypc his SR yr), and has never spread his throws around (2 primary rec his SR yr at Fresno St). IMO, this offense is not based upon Carr strengths and may be difficult for him to grasp/execute...here's hoping I'm wrong...

Well, were you watching the same playcalling I was? Defenders keying on the curl pattern, or on the quick out? Because that's all Capers would call on passing plays...no vertical stretching of the field whatsoever, and it made us into the joke of the league. Capers intentionally called those two pass plays because he felt that the protection was bad? Was it? Yes, but it was bad because the other team crowded our WRs knowing the curl or quick out was coming, and then the LBs would blitz Carr because they were not having to cover any other WR threat since we never sent one down the field...we kept our TE in for max protect, and Carr DIDN'T have any progressions to go through.

Kubiak's passing system is proven. It's going to work. Everyone is saying it, even the media, and it's forced them to hype the "Why didn't draft Bush?" topic because they know things are turning around for us. The not-drafting-Reggie-Bush topic is the ONLY bash that the media or analysts can throw at us because this team is rapidly changing its complexion, and that includes the starting the QB.

Go Texans!, and that includes the current starting QB.

tsip
08-05-2006, 06:27 PM
Hey man, I am defending my stance just like you are. Roll with the punches, k?

Let's get down to brass tacks: I would rather see the starting QB succeed, but you hate him. That's not me putting words in your mouth...you admit you don't like the guy and that you think he's bad for the team. That's YOU saying that. Check your posts.

In my world, it's one thing to criticize a player, but it's quite another to go to the lengths that you have gone. It's not a situation of you not being able to have your opinion...it's a situation of me being vigilant to respond to your posts and keep things on the level as I see fit.

I'll say it all day long: You're not a bad fan at all, but I so completely disagree with your standpoint that I am compelled to respond to it.

Go Texans!, and that includes our current starting QB.

I hate Carr?,,,never said that.
...admit I don't like the guy?...never said that.
...and the rest of your post belongs on "Comedy Central.' I hope you are right about Carr this year because I'm concerned about your well-being--your imagination is scary!!!...but, you did make 'that' list...and you're first!!!

Kaiser Toro
08-05-2006, 06:32 PM
Thread's dead baby, the threads dead.

Mysteryhunt
08-05-2006, 06:52 PM
mmm pulp fiction

Runner
08-05-2006, 07:08 PM
Thread's dead baby, the threads dead.

Speak for yourself. I'm learning a lot of fascinating new things. :rolleyes:

bayoudreamn
08-05-2006, 09:33 PM
Speak for yourself. I'm learning a lot of fascinating new things. :rolleyes:

Is this thread about Michael Smith's report?:sarcasm: :brickwall :shoot:

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-05-2006, 09:51 PM
Is this thread about Michael Smith's report?:sarcasm: :brickwall :shoot:
Your saying this with sarcasm but I had to check the thread title twice because I thought it was a carr thread. lol.

Insideop
08-05-2006, 10:11 PM
I wondered how this thread got so long. I should have known. :)


Yes "Runner" you should have known! Your first clue should have been a thread with over 100 posts and only a day old! lol:

thunderkyss
08-06-2006, 09:52 AM
That, I don't agree with. You gotta play within the system you're in. You've got to do what your coaches tell you to do. That's their job and that's your job. If you think something's not going right, you talk to your position coach, then maybe your coordinator; you voice your questions during meetings.

But you do NOT break the chain of command to the point of going to the coach or to the owner. You don't air your dirty laundry to the media. To me, that's all inexcusable behavior.

I didn't say go to the media....... to me that is too far....... but even in the military, you follow the proper chain of command...... going over Capers head, is not breaking the chain, if you went to him first.

thunderkyss
08-06-2006, 10:35 AM
i agree with that..

when I think of undermining and doing your own thing to a coach.. Jeff George is the first person (next to t.o) that comes to mind..

funny, I'm thinking Peyton Manning.....

but for the most part, I agree with you....... but in our situation.... if I'm the QB, if my butt is getting pounded into the dirt, and the best things the coach can come up with is a 1 step drop to beat the blitz.......

sorry, but I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do....... especially if we are 1-10 or something to that effect.

tsip
08-06-2006, 11:05 AM
...gotta do what you're told to do by your superior even when you know it won't work or it is not right?...can't rock the boat?...sorry, I don't buy into this thinking...As Kubiak said himself, if one of his Coaches (whether a veteran or newbie) has an idea/comment/opinion or thought about 'anything', he wants to hear about it--thinking that the 'man in charge' does not want to 'hear' from a subordinate or does not want the 'sub' to make a decision on their own w/o 'permisiion' is a 'cop out.'

The chain of command does not exist with only certain people allowed to 'speak out' or make decisions on their own, and this does not translate into disrespect. People move up the 'chain' by displaying the competence and courage to make decisions--how in the world can you run an organization of any kind with a premise of 'silence is golden' and 'my way or the highway.'...gezzzzzzzzzzz

D-Vizzl
08-06-2006, 11:24 AM
funny, I'm thinking Peyton Manning.....

but for the most part, I agree with you....... but in our situation.... if I'm the QB, if my butt is getting pounded into the dirt, and the best things the coach can come up with is a 1 step drop to beat the blitz.......

sorry, but I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do....... especially if we are 1-10 or something to that effect.

Ditto; for me it all comes down to decision making. The coaches called a lot of vanilla type plays which were'nt effective, but Carr had the chance to audible to something more effective, not just run left etc ect. David Carr can show you flashes of specialty, but when he does'nt how does it then automatically get blamed on the coaches. This is a results driven business and when it affects you personally you should go out of your way to make sure you are'nt getting a bad rap.

To me I will take the more "logical" approach to what happened in the past, outdated coaching, bad schemes, and players (including the QB) churned out an even effort to make this team what it was (dismal). Let everything sift itself out this year and we will see, but at some point the Carr :homer:'s and the Carr Haters will have to be in cahoots at some point and one day we will all see David for what he is, a success or a failure- ALL OF US, but til then why can't we respect each others opinions.

"Anything else would be uncivilized"

D-Vizzl
08-06-2006, 11:35 AM
...gotta do what you're told to do by your superior even when you know it won't work or it is not right?...can't rock the boat?...sorry, I don't buy into this thinking...As Kubiak said himself, if one of his Coaches (whether a veteran or newbie) has an idea/comment/opinion or thought about 'anything', he wants to hear about it--thinking that the 'man in charge' does not want to 'hear' from a subordinate or does not want the 'sub' to make a decision on their own w/o 'permisiion' is a 'cop out.'

The chain of command does not exist with only certain people allowed to 'speak out' or make decisions on their own, and this does not translate into disrespect. People move up the 'chain' by displaying the competence and courage to make decisions--how in the world can you run an organization of any kind with a premise of 'silence is golden' and 'my way or the highway.'...gezzzzzzzzzzz


Like Dom always says "I'll say this" if Carr would have went against the gameplan what would have been the repurcussions, they constantly stated how much they had invested into Carr so what would they have done?---I beleive the answer is nothing, they certanly would'nt have benched a non-injured starting QB, too much backlash involved, please come with something else on that front. Good point T-Sip

tsip
08-06-2006, 11:47 AM
Several posters have mentioned how threads go on about Carr, posts after post, and want them to stop. How do we do that? It's simple--stop starting threads that keep reminding everyone of all the 'excuses' for David's past performance--stop 'cramming' these excuses down everyone's throat, as they are known 'by heart' and are yesterday's news. It's strange to me that there are very few-if any- threads/posts about Carr in TC. Why? Tell us about how Carr is doing...let's settle this arguement on the field. Too, why do the Carr:homer: 's keep on bringing up Young and Bush? They are not here so no one wants to talk about them...

Simple,,,quit bringing up the past...quit posting every quote you can find to justify Carr's existence, as it just :stirpot: ...again, give some feed back on Carr from camp...

Wolf
08-06-2006, 12:00 PM
thanks for adding

My thing is everyone is willing to give everyone on the team a clean slate (owner on down for making changes) except some on this board.

hmm what I laugh at is during the last four seasons main game day topics are "playcalling stinks","fire Palmer" "fire Pendry" and can't remember much Carr stinks thread.

all I can say if Kubiak can't turn Carr around then Brady Quinn here we come.

Wolf
08-06-2006, 12:07 PM
I find it hard to believe that McNair would run a muti-billion dollar business and keep a guy that he thinks makes a great "Lead" (Carr) when he had a chance to let him go and not sign him an extension

McNair took his "business" and got rid of the management (aka Capers and crew) and replaced them.

with that said and any business. With new managment and the lead has same results .then it is time for a new lead

jerek
08-06-2006, 12:12 PM
funny, I'm thinking Peyton Manning.....

but for the most part, I agree with you....... but in our situation.... if I'm the QB, if my butt is getting pounded into the dirt, and the best things the coach can come up with is a 1 step drop to beat the blitz.......

sorry, but I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do....... especially if we are 1-10 or something to that effect.

You can say "you're gonna do" ... but you're not an NFL quarterback, and I suspect you were never even a high school quarterback. It doesn't work that way. Why not David Carr call the defenses too? Make personnel substitutions? Conduct practices? Hell, since Carr has all of this fictional power all of a sudden, why not fire Capers and hire his dad? You can talk all day about systematically changing plays past an occasional audible (which itself must be allowed for by the coaches) but it doesn't happen, period. Not any quarterback for any coach for any team.

Peyton Manning has been given explicit privilege by the coaches to call his own offense at the line. That's very different from Peyton Manning calling his own plays contrary to the coaches' gameplan/orders ... so that's a 100% inapplicable example.

What "you would do" is be benched and unemployed.

jerek
08-06-2006, 12:14 PM
Several posters have mentioned how threads go on about Carr, posts after post, and want them to stop. How do we do that? It's simple--stop starting threads that keep reminding everyone of all the 'excuses' for David's past performance--stop 'cramming' these excuses down everyone's throat, as they are known 'by heart' and are yesterday's news. It's strange to me that there are very few-if any- threads/posts about Carr in TC. Why? Tell us about how Carr is doing...let's settle this arguement on the field. Too, why do the Carr:homer: 's keep on bringing up Young and Bush? They are not here so no one wants to talk about them...

Simple,,,quit bringing up the past...quit posting every quote you can find to justify Carr's existence, as it just :stirpot: ...again, give some feed back on Carr from camp...

I've posted numerous times (as I've been on the team's sideline for four camp sessions) that Carr is doing well and looks much better this year. See the training camp threads for details. Is that "field doing the talking" enough for you?

tsip
08-06-2006, 12:26 PM
"Carr is doing well and looks much better this year. See the training camp threads for details. Is that "field doing the talking" enough for you?"

I'll go back and look again--must have just missed the details, sorry. T was looking for comments on how Carr's reading/progression/selection/quick release/delivery/roll out/throwing on the run/etc. was going instead of 'generic' statements that say he 'looks much better'--not sure what that means...sorry

jerek
08-06-2006, 12:29 PM
"Carr is doing well and looks much better this year. See the training camp threads for details. Is that "field doing the talking" enough for you?"

I'll go back and look again--must have just missed the details, sorry. T was looking for comments on how Carr's reading/progression/selection/quick release/delivery/roll out/throwing on the run/etc. was going instead of 'generic' statements that say he 'looks much better'--not sure what that means...sorry

Check the threads for specifics and if you have specific questions that are still unanswered, lemme know, I'll answer them as best I can. For obvious reasons I have paid close attention to Carr throughout camp and will be able to give you a relatively detailed report on him; good and bad. Check those threads and let me know.

Hottoddie
08-06-2006, 12:37 PM
Sit back and watch. And then grab a fork when we bring you a big plate of crow to eat in about two months.

If you knew as much about this topic as you proclaim, you'd know that Carr honored Capers and did what he was told to do...NOT lone-rangering his job at QB like so many characterless punks do these days. Carr didn't perform because he was one man up against a highly incapable coaching staff who, in my opinion, were worse at gameplanning than a 12-year-old on Madden '06...I swear, a 12-year-old who's been playing Madden could call better plays, and anticipate the other team's tendencies better than Capers and Fangio. Heck, Capers doesn't even get to install his own version of defense in Miami...he's been told to sit there and relay the calls, a very demeaning demotion for a guy who was head of our football program for four years.

You base your evaluation on Carr's "performance" when you never even mention or seem to recognize what Michael Smith of ESPN has recognized: "Every player realizes who poorly coached they were last year, and EVERY player (to a man) expresses supreme confidence in Kubiak even though they have yet to play a game."

Yeah, we're a bunch of homers....of course, if you had been around for the past few years on this board you would have seen lots of us who bashed Carr like you are.....only to come around at some point and realize that the entire team suffered under such incompetency the likes of which will be very easy to see when we roll onto the field soon.

Don't worry, at some point you'll see the light, too. Just takes some people longer than others. But go ahead and hold your grudge against the QB...he's always the one who gets the glory or the blame in football. It's always the QBs fault, isn't it?

Well, the whole team stunk and that's changing RAPIDLY. Take the time to read all the coverage and then mentally time warp yourself back to this time last year...try and make a mental image in your head of last year's practices vs. this year's practices. Heck, take a look at the rosters for that matter. That's enough all by itself.


gpshafer_1976,

This is an excellent post. You've come a long way from your early days. I've had you on my ignore list for quite some time, but have recently read some of your posts & have been very impressed. It should go without saying, but you're no longer on my ignore list & I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 12:47 PM
I didn't say go to the media....... to me that is too far....... but even in the military, you follow the proper chain of command...... going over Capers head, is not breaking the chain, if you went to him first.

So how high up the chain can he go? Position coach, then OC, then head coach, then... owner? I'd say it stops at the head coach and if the problem is coming from there, you're just screwed.

And if Carr doesn't go to the media, how do WE know that he didn't go up the chain all the way to the owner? We don't. We don't know that he didn't do exactly what you said he should do.

texan279
08-06-2006, 12:54 PM
All I know is that if my boss tells me to do something and I take it upon myself to do something different because I think it is the right way or better way, I wouldn't have a job too long.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 12:55 PM
...gotta do what you're told to do by your superior even when you know it won't work or it is not right?...can't rock the boat?...sorry, I don't buy into this thinking...As Kubiak said himself, if one of his Coaches (whether a veteran or newbie) has an idea/comment/opinion or thought about 'anything', he wants to hear about it--thinking that the 'man in charge' does not want to 'hear' from a subordinate or does not want the 'sub' to make a decision on their own w/o 'permisiion' is a 'cop out.'

The chain of command does not exist with only certain people allowed to 'speak out' or make decisions on their own, and this does not translate into disrespect. People move up the 'chain' by displaying the competence and courage to make decisions--how in the world can you run an organization of any kind with a premise of 'silence is golden' and 'my way or the highway.'...gezzzzzzzzzzz

You don't know HOW high Carr took his problems up the chain of command unless he airs it in the media and if he airs it in the media, then he's a bad guy. You don't know if Carr's complaints are why Capers is gone or not.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 01:04 PM
Let everything sift itself out this year and we will see, but at some point the Carr :homer:'s and the Carr Haters will have to be in cahoots at some point and one day we will all see David for what he is, a success or a failure- ALL OF US, but til then why can't we respect each others opinions.

"Anything else would be uncivilized"

The strange thing is, I don't consider myself a Carr homer. I don't think he set the moon or anything like that. I just feel like some posters in this forum go out of their way to make weird accusations against him. I mean, "He's the worst QB in 40 years" or that all of our losses and all of those sacks are his fault or that he should have done things to sabotage the coaching staff. I think those things are just going too far. I think some people here really hate him and I don't understand that.

Could Carr have done things differently and better over the past few years? Of course. Does that mean he's a total and complete failure as a QB that we're best just getting rid of? I don't think so.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 01:09 PM
All I know is that if my boss tells me to do something and I take it upon myself to do something different because I think it is the right way or better way, I wouldn't have a job too long.

And if you get a reputation as a guy that's a loose cannon like that, you won't find employment in that line of work for very long, either.

tsip
08-06-2006, 01:09 PM
All I know is that if my boss tells me to do something and I take it upon myself to do something different because I think it is the right way or better way, I wouldn't have a job too long.

Well, if my boss told me to turn off the red switch but I knew that was the wrong switch, so I turned off the green switch, instead, and saved a 'catastrophe', I'd get an 'atta boy.' However, if I did as he said knowing it was wrong and blew the building up, then, I'd get fired....hopefully, your boss never tells you to jump off a building!!!!!!!!

texan279
08-06-2006, 01:14 PM
Well, if my boss told me to turn off the red switch but I knew that was the wrong switch, so I turned off the green switch, instead, and saved a 'catastrophe', I'd get an 'atta boy.' However, if I did as he said knowing it was wrong and blew the building up, then, I'd get fired....hopefully, your boss never tells you to jump off a building!!!!!!!!

You forget, last season, the offfense was under Pendry, so more than likely any choice or change Carr would have made as far as playcalling last season would have been like pulling "a red switch". It's not like Pendry had a big book full of awesome plays or anything.

Wolf
08-06-2006, 01:48 PM
Well, if my boss told me to turn off the red switch but I knew that was the wrong switch, so I turned off the green switch, instead, and saved a 'catastrophe', I'd get an 'atta boy.' However, if I did as he said knowing it was wrong and blew the building up, then, I'd get fired....hopefully, your boss never tells you to jump off a building!!!!!!!!

this is the problem.if I am at work and it is unethical..yes, I have the right not to do it. but if it isn't something unethical...once I tell a boss no, well I probably won't have a job very long.

IMO there is much more than Carr just calling a different play and going behind Capers back. the WR's have to be on board, the OL has to make the calls for the play.. This isn't out in the playground where their is a 5 2nd rush and someone can wing it

Heck I might be talking out of my piehole.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 01:48 PM
Well, if my boss told me to turn off the red switch but I knew that was the wrong switch, so I turned off the green switch, instead, and saved a 'catastrophe', I'd get an 'atta boy.' However, if I did as he said knowing it was wrong and blew the building up, then, I'd get fired....hopefully, your boss never tells you to jump off a building!!!!!!!!

Wow. Too bad life isn't that simple.

Gosh, if your boss tells you to slit your throat, would you do it? :sarcasm:

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

How about this, if you've got play A where you have one option to go with the ball and an audible B where you have one option to go with the ball and if neither option is good? Which one do you call? You can't call a completely different play. So after you get sacked, you go to the coach and say,"I didn't have any good options." and he tells you to sit down and shut up. What do you do? Throw a temper tantrum and look like a spoiled child?

The bottom line is that we do not know what was going on in these huddles or in those team meetings. We don't know what the plays were, we don't know which plays that it was possible to audible to were, we don't know what the reads were, we don't know who was complained to. From what we CAN tell from where we sit, there was something very wrong with the overall system. Something was not working right. There might be something wrong with the QB, but we just don't know for sure.

Well, some of us don't know for sure. Hopefully after this year we'll know, but there's a possibility that we won't.

D-Vizzl
08-06-2006, 02:00 PM
Not that I beleive this but, could there have been a chance that the conservative play calling was a result of the non-trust Capers and crew may have had when it came to the offense(even though it was their own personell). I don't want to look back but man I would love to know when and how it all went wrong.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 02:56 PM
Not that I beleive this but, could there have been a chance that the conservative play calling was a result of the non-trust Capers and crew may have had when it came to the offense(even though it was their own personell). I don't want to look back but man I would love to know when and how it all went wrong.

Exactly, that's what's weird. 2 years ago, everything was starting to click and then wham, everything falls to pieces.

IIRC, Capers' goal was always to keep the game close and then try to win it at the end. He wanted the D to basically win the game and the O not to lose it. To protect Carr, we went to a max-protect scheme that basically crippled us. At least, that was the way I saw it. I think that Capers & Pendry just didn't trust their own o-line.

TwinSisters
08-06-2006, 03:24 PM
Not that I beleive this but, could there have been a chance that the conservative play calling was a result of the non-trust Capers and crew may have had when it came to the offense(even though it was their own personell). I don't want to look back but man I would love to know when and how it all went wrong.

Casserly.

GP
08-06-2006, 03:53 PM
"Carr is doing well and looks much better this year. See the training camp threads for details. Is that "field doing the talking" enough for you?"

I'll go back and look again--must have just missed the details, sorry. T was looking for comments on how Carr's reading/progression/selection/quick release/delivery/roll out/throwing on the run/etc. was going instead of 'generic' statements that say he 'looks much better'--not sure what that means...sorry

That entire statement sums it up for me, tsip.

Have you not been reading the traning camp coverage, especially of Carr? The reveiws are great so far...there's been a lot of specific details within this message board, from people like jerek and others who are giving us inside looks at our team right now, about Carr finding the right receiver, making the right read, and delivering the ball into the receiver's hands at the right time with the right zip on it. The Carr-AJ hookup is also getting noticed by a lot of people, and they are working like magic again. They've reported that Carr is becoming the vocal leader of the team, and that he's exuding more confidence than ever.

"I'll go back and look again--must have just missed the details, sorry." doesn't cut it when you are ragging the guy and you don't even take the time to see the progression he has made, the very real and factual progression from when he was under Capers and now as he becomes the kind of talent under Kubiak that was expected.

Man, I got flamed so bad last year because I commented on a game that I didn't watch...and I deserved it. Can't talk about it unless you've seen it. And you would do well to read up more on the coverage that's been graciously provided by those who sweat it out and take notes for all of us.

And as The Pencil Neck has noted earlier: Some people HATE David Carr, and that's really all it boils down to. Some people dislike him for his pretty boy looks, some people dislike him for what they think is an arrogant attitude that he carries, some people dislike him because he's an active Christian who honors his authority (Capers) instead of being a cutthroat who should take it all on his shoulders and do what he wants, some people dislike him because he stood in the way of us getting Vince Young, and some people dislike him because he was the QB for a losing team that they wished had been a winning team, and heck...some people probably dislike him just to dislike him.

D-Vizzl
08-06-2006, 04:04 PM
Exactly, that's what's weird. 2 years ago, everything was starting to click and then wham, everything falls to pieces.

IIRC, Capers' goal was always to keep the game close and then try to win it at the end. He wanted the D to basically win the game and the O not to lose it. To protect Carr, we went to a max-protect scheme that basically crippled us. At least, that was the way I saw it. I think that Capers & Pendry just didn't trust their own o-line.


See this will be my first season to be on here so I don't know what was going on in this board, but what was the feeling about Carr after the 7-9 season? That's how I can determine whether people are speaking from their heart or if it's wet wood (no good and useable). That can also speak volumes on when it all went wrong with the team.

GP
08-06-2006, 04:04 PM
I didn't say go to the media....... to me that is too far....... but even in the military, you follow the proper chain of command...... going over Capers head, is not breaking the chain, if you went to him first.

You watch too many war movies where the little soldier defies his superior and thus wins the battle with his "quick thinking."

That stuff is bilge. Dung.

You go over your superior's head, you get reprimanded. And you might get worse. They don;t have that sort of philosophy in the military that you are describing.

If anything, the military tells you to NOT think for yourself, to follow your commander's instructions to the letter. Officers make the calls, and grunts get it done. Maybe in the super elite forces you'll see some guys given freedoms in how they maneuver, etc., but even still it's a far cry from total anarchy where if you don't get what you want you can go over your superior's head and gripe to his superior.

On an ethical or moral situation? Maybe. But not on the basic premise or idea of organizational performance. You do what you're told. You make a suggestion (IF you are granted permission to speak "freely" as they say) and then you grit your teeth and grin about it when your idea is rejected.

No, the best organization is the one where ulitmately (note that I said "ultimately") the decisions rest in the hands of those are entrusted to make those calls, and you let the chips fall where they may when and if that decision gets carried out and fails or succeeds.

It wasn't on Carr's back to get it done, in terms of playcalling. Capers and Pendry made absolutely sure that the world knew that THEY called the plays and the QB carried them out.

So, "yeah" I agree with what was said in another post: Kubiak wants people to speak up. But don't think for a second that that's how it worked with Capers, and don't think for a second that if you are heard by Kubiak...but he disagrees with you...that you are going to get to do your own thing.

GP
08-06-2006, 04:16 PM
Go Texans!

tsip
08-06-2006, 04:17 PM
"That entire statement sums it up for me, tsip."

Well, I went back and read the 3 pg recap of the Sat practice and found 2 sentences about Carr and 1 sentence about Carr and Sage together. I guess I expected to hear more and you expected to hear less but-oh,well, I'll go back and see what I missed in the other days threads.:whoohoo:

Wolf
08-06-2006, 04:18 PM
See this will be my first season to be on here so I don't know what was going on in this board, but what was the feeling about Carr after the 7-9 season? That's how I can determine whether people are speaking from their heart or if it's wet wood (no good and useable). That can also speak volumes on when it all went wrong with the team.

some still didn't like him and to me most of the big discussions where his hair and being a pretty boy..

at the end of the season, (and I can't speak for all,0bviously)..we or atleast I felt the team made strides and we anxious for the 2005 season, worries were that we still needed to improve on defense due to our veterans getting long in the tooth and the offense still needed a TE.. Carr still needed to keep progressing and learn to read defenses better.

that is what i can remember but boy that was a long time ago

D-Vizzl
08-06-2006, 04:18 PM
: Some people dislike him for his pretty boy looks, some people dislike him for what they think is an arrogant attitude that he carries, some people dislike him because he's an active Christian who honors his authority


Man, I almost thought you knew me, I was about to say don't forget to mention my vivacity. :heh: :whistle: :rofl:

Wolf
08-06-2006, 04:22 PM
Go Texans!

I can agree with that.. both sides of the ball just didn't have the confidence in the gameplanning that was happening and it was a shame.. I mean what were we 4 weeks into the season and Palmer gets canned.. if that were to happen, it should have happened in the offseason..

for the life of me, no one has(that I can remember) gave an explaination of why Palmer was always the scapegoat and Fangio (who had probowl/solid players from the get go) never got bashed for a defense that couldn't pressure the Qb, couldn't create turnovers and couldn't stop teams on 3rd and long.

tsip
08-06-2006, 04:27 PM
"Have you not been reading the traning camp coverage, especially of Carr?'

Ok, I must be looking in the wrong place, as I only found 1 comment about Carr in the 3 pgs of Thur Night coverage--where are all these comments you are 'ragging' on me for missing?

GP
08-06-2006, 04:32 PM
Well, here's a clip so you can see for yourself:

http://www.khou.com/sharedcontent/Vi...9747&catId=505

I like the second clip where you see Carr stand in the pocket, duck a defender a little bit, always keeping his eyes open and not on assuming the fetal position, and then delivering a strike to the receiver.

Granted, it's not a real team of defenders out there...but he's looking better.

And as far as finding the posts you're aksing about...I don't know exactly where they are at. I read stuff from houstonprofootball.com which provides good analysis, I read the stuff here, and I watch clips like the one I posted above.

You gotta' go and find it. There's too much to sort through for me to find it for you. Sometimes I spend an hour or longer scanning past posts and threads just trying to find the one nugget that I knew was there..and needed for something...but couldn't remember what thread it was a part of.

D-Vizzl
08-06-2006, 04:34 PM
some still didn't like him and to me most of the big discussions where his hair and being a pretty boy..

at the end of the season, (and I can't speak for all,0bviously)..we or atleast I felt the team made strides and we anxious for the 2005 season, worries were that we still needed to improve on defense due to our veterans getting long in the tooth and the offense still needed a TE.. Carr still needed to keep progressing and learn to read defenses better.

that is what i can remember but boy that was a long time ago


So maybe it is just a we hate Carr type crusade going on, still hating him after a 3500 yard season and promising future? Maybe I need to go back to the inagural season to see how some felt then? All I know is that I may not be a big Carr enthusiast, but I'd prefer to root for a winner, and if we are busy getting new QB's in then we will have to hear that rebuilding word that I hate so much,in which they (Texans) will ask for a few more years to get it tigether. Win now or show some significant promise that's all I need from the guy. Fairly or unfairly criticized, just make it happen now BA-BY :ok:

WWX
08-06-2006, 04:37 PM
good read


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp06/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2539272


Thank you for posting the article and it was indeed a good read.

Iím one person who never wanted capers in the first place. Every year I waited to see if he would get fired. FINALLY!!! And this couldnít have happened at a better time because Kub is a genius IMO. He worked directly with Steve Young, John Elway, and won SBís with both. Look at what the man has already brought to this team via the draft and by other means. Kubís not a little ***** like the former coach. He doesnít do what the fans want to gain popularity. His full intention is to gain respect by doing one thing only, winning games. Look at the admiration he already receives from players, coaches.

As for Carr, he has a good arm, good athleticism, and now a good coaching staff. And if he would have played a decent year in 05 then that capers crew would still be on H-Town turf, and Iíd be sitting around still waiting for him to be fired. Another long year would have gone by. I have seen the problems that have persisted in Davidís NFL career. My main concern was his timing and vision. But before I dog him Iíll give him some time with a good coach, watch him run a well designed offensive system, and then see if he truly has what it takes. And I think heís got it.

My point is simple, most of the blame, IMO, should lie in the lap of the coach we fired.

swtbound07
08-06-2006, 04:37 PM
So maybe it is just a we hate Carr type crusade going on, still hating him after a 3500 yard season and promising future? Maybe I need to go back to the inagural season to see how some felt then? All I know is that I may not be a big Carr enthusiast, but I'd prefer to root for a winner, and if we are busy getting new QB's in then we will have to hear that rebuilding word that I hate so much,in which they (Texans) will ask for a few more years to get it tigether. Win now or show some significant promise that's all I need from the guy. Fairly or unfairly criticized, just make it happen now BA-BY :ok:


What exactly is it that you think we are doing??? New front office, new coaching staff, a slew of new players.....we scrapped pretty much EVERYBODY except Carr and are starting over....we are rebuilding....you know that 5 year plan we heard so much about? Well start the clock over to year 1, because that just happened. You can go back to the inagural season if you like......I was nothing but optimistic about the man...gave him a pass his first 2 years......but he never showed the growth he needed to show.

Wolf
08-06-2006, 04:42 PM
So maybe it is just a we hate Carr type crusade going on, still hating him after a 3500 yard season and promising future? Maybe I need to go back to the inagural season to see how some felt then? All I know is that I may not be a big Carr enthusiast, but I'd prefer to root for a winner, and if we are busy getting new QB's in then we will have to hear that rebuilding word that I hate so much,in which they (Texans) will ask for a few more years to get it tigether. Win now or show some significant promise that's all I need from the guy. Fairly or unfairly criticized, just make it happen now BA-BY :ok:

as I think this season I expect Carr to be up with the 2004 season stats or better..that is my expectation.

tsip here is a link that probably sums everything up that every argument/counter argument that has been brought up

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=24272&highlight=training+camp+Carr+improved


I personally don't know how any QB could endure the punishment that has happened in houston and be successfull.. As great as Payton Manning is, we saw his game when he got hammered time and time again agains the Steelers .. we saw Kurt Warner after he got pounded and hurt.. (has he came back to form yet?) Aikman took poundings early in his career but they (the Cowboys fixed that before permanent damage hit.

Is Carr going to be like those QB's? who knows.. I just want a solid QB that doesn't turn the ball over and doesn't hurt the team. I am not worried if he goes to probowl year after year (would be nice)

I would think we all would be in agreement with that

Wolf
08-06-2006, 04:44 PM
What exactly is it that you think we are doing??? New front office, new coaching staff, a slew of new players.....we scrapped pretty much EVERYBODY except Carr and are starting over....we are rebuilding....you know that 5 year plan we heard so much about? Well start the clock over to year 1, because that just happened. You can go back to the inagural season if you like......I was nothing but optimistic about the man...gave him a pass his first 2 years......but he never showed the growth he needed to show.

reminds me of how people hated on wells for 2 years and we had some OL that could finally Run block and DD did so well.. people hated on Wells, then DD gets hurt and Wells runs behind the same line as what DD ran and had comparable stats .. everybody starts liking Wells

for the record... I liked Wells and I liked DD, but for body size.. If Wells would have ran as hard as DD, he'd still be with the team

D-Vizzl
08-06-2006, 04:46 PM
What exactly is it that you think we are doing??? New front office, new coaching staff, a slew of new players.....we scrapped pretty much EVERYBODY except Carr and are starting over....we are rebuilding....you know that 5 year plan we heard so much about? Well start the clock over to year 1, because that just happened. You can go back to the inagural season if you like......I was nothing but optimistic about the man...gave him a pass his first 2 years......but he never showed the growth he needed to show.

NOOOOOOOOOOO we are not rebuilding, simply restocking.

See if I keep telling myself that I will believe it!!

Seriously though I meant the core pieces, QB,WR,HB,CB,some d-line and linebackers

Wolf
08-06-2006, 04:47 PM
What exactly is it that you think we are doing??? New front office, new coaching staff, a slew of new players.....we scrapped pretty much EVERYBODY except Carr and are starting over....we are rebuilding....you know that 5 year plan we heard so much about? Well start the clock over to year 1, because that just happened. You can go back to the inagural season if you like......I was nothing but optimistic about the man...gave him a pass his first 2 years......but he never showed the growth he needed to show.


who's fault is that Carr's?? wow SWT.. maybe with Carr's huge contract he can buy the Texans and be an owner/player/GM/coach.

swtbound07
08-06-2006, 04:52 PM
who's fault is that Carr's?? wow SWT.. maybe with Carr's huge contract he can buy the Texans and be an owner/player/GM/coach.

I didn't say that it was carr's fault he didnt get fired. Thats Mcnair's.....pure and simple.

Look, my analogy to Carr is simple. Its one of a grocery store.

You go shopping for a can of vegetables. You have 2 cans of vegetables....one is shiny and new, one has obviously been dented up a bit. which one do you want running your dinner? A new, untested, can, or a dented up can? You don't know that either of them can hold up the weight of an entire meal. Granted, they have both shown potential in the amateur del monte league, but really....which one do you choose?

Wolf
08-06-2006, 05:08 PM
I didn't say that it was carr's fault he didnt get fired. Thats Mcnair's.....pure and simple.

Look, my analogy to Carr is simple. Its one of a grocery store.

You go shopping for a can of vegetables. You have 2 cans of vegetables....one is shiny and new, one has obviously been dented up a bit. which one do you want running your dinner? A new, untested, can, or a dented up can? You don't know that either of them can hold up the weight of an entire meal. Granted, they have both shown potential in the amateur del monte league, but really....which one do you choose?

problem is you have a dented can of Carr veggies and a bright can of Sage veggies

swtbound07
08-06-2006, 05:10 PM
problem is you have a dented can of Carr veggies and a bright can of Sage veggies

neither one of them has proven their veggie worth at this point

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 05:16 PM
See this will be my first season to be on here so I don't know what was going on in this board, but what was the feeling about Carr after the 7-9 season? That's how I can determine whether people are speaking from their heart or if it's wet wood (no good and useable). That can also speak volumes on when it all went wrong with the team.

This is going to be my first season on this board as well. I just popped in during the draft to see how people closer to the team were feeling about the choices. Especially the Mario pick (that I really, really liked.)

WWX
08-06-2006, 05:17 PM
I didn't say that it was carr's fault he didnt get fired. Thats Mcnair's.....pure and simple.

Look, my analogy to Carr is simple. Its one of a grocery store.

You go shopping for a can of vegetables. You have 2 cans of vegetables....one is shiny and new, one has obviously been dented up a bit. which one do you want running your dinner? A new, untested, can, or a dented up can? You don't know that either of them can hold up the weight of an entire meal. Granted, they have both shown potential in the amateur del monte league, but really....which one do you choose?

Sorry but your analogy is kinda lame. And Iím being to generous when I say that because I really donít want to offend you, just stating my opinion. IMO getting rid of a perfectly capable QB, who has just survived a four year trip into oblivion, is something an inadequate coach would do. Yes we know you want V. Young. I like him, you like him, we all like him. He is a good kid and might be a great player in a few years, maybe even sooner. Maybe the best ever, who knows at this point? But we do know Carr is our QB right now and our team looks pretty good shortly after hiring a coach who has three Super Bowl rings.

I trust what Kubiak is doing. And when I read reports about Mario, I donít miss V. Young anymore, Iím perfectly happy, are you?

But did Vince HAVE to end up in tennessee!!!

swtbound07
08-06-2006, 05:22 PM
Sorry but your analogy is kinda lame. And Iím being to generous when I say that because I really donít want to offend you, just stating my opinion. IMO getting rid of a perfectly capable QB, who has just survived a four year trip into oblivion, is something an inadequate coach would do. Yes we know you want V. Young. I like him, you like him, we all like him. He is a good kid and might be a great player in a few years, maybe even sooner. Maybe the best ever, who knows at this point? But we do know Carr is our QB right now and our team looks pretty good shortly after hiring a coach who has three Super Bowl rings.

I trust what Kubiak is doing. And when I read reports about Mario, I donít miss V. Young anymore, Iím perfectly happy, are you?

But did Vince HAVE to end up in tennessee!!!

Thats the problem. If Carr was perfectly capable then I wouldn't be having these discussions. I let Vince go. I really have...I own the jersey, and will cheer for him, but Im campaigning for Sage now...he's on our roster.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 05:24 PM
Iím one person who never wanted capers in the first place. Every year I waited to see if he would get fired. FINALLY!!! And this couldnít have happened at a better time because Kub is a genius IMO.

I was actually excited about getting Capers after how well he'd done with the Panthers. And then of course... The Game. But fairly early on, I started hearing griping about how Capers was treating the players and the play calling didn't look very good to me. So in the back of my mind, I was kinda wondering if he was the right guy. I expected more the third year but I felt we were on the right track. And then... blech... luckily the two guys I talk the most smack to are a Jets fan and a Raiders fan. They weren't really in a position to talk much more than I was.

I'm glad Kubes is here. There is smack to be talked and I want to be the one talking it.

WWX
08-06-2006, 05:32 PM
Thats the problem. If Carr was perfectly capable then I wouldn't be having these discussions. I let Vince go. I really have...I own the jersey, and will cheer for him, but Im campaigning for Sage now...he's on our roster.

Yes Rosenfels isn't too shabby. But I'll end my part of this discussion by stating Carr is capable, just under coached in the past. You'll see... Just wait.

swtbound07
08-06-2006, 05:34 PM
Yes Rosenfels isn't too shabby. But I'll end my part of this discussion by stating Carr is capable, just under coached in the past. You'll see... Just wait.

No thanks...i've been playing the waiting game for 4 years...carr isn't capable......you'll see. Just pop in an old texans tape...or you can wait for the season to start.

WWX
08-06-2006, 05:53 PM
No thanks...i've been playing the waiting game for 4 years...carr isn't capable......you'll see. Just pop in an old texans tape...or you can wait for the season to start.

Ok then donít wait, just give up on him and watch Tennessee games or cook some canned spinach. But in the meantime Iíll be watching him lead the Texans through their best season yet. And when Carr has a good season, and your ingenious theories are proved wrong, it wonít be because he miraculously learned how to play football in one off-season. It will be because of Kubiak and the entire TEAM.

Anyway Iím gonna go cook some chicken parmesan so my family can feast, but no canned goods though, sorry.

:ohsnap:

texan279
08-06-2006, 06:23 PM
Thats the problem. If Carr was perfectly capable then I wouldn't be having these discussions. I let Vince go. I really have...I own the jersey, and will cheer for him, but Im campaigning for Sage now...he's on our roster.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post but please tell me you are not saying you would rather have Sage starting at QB...

Wolf
08-06-2006, 06:27 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding your post but please tell me you are not saying you would rather have Sage starting at QB...

haven't a clue.. swt doesnt' think either one is worth it.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 08:22 PM
Its funny how some people continue to defend Carr like someone was talking about their mother.

It's funny to me how some people attack Carr like he raped their mothers.

He threw for 3500 yards year before last, had a decent completion percentage and more touches than ints, had been making steady progress, and looked poised to do a lot last year. And didn't. That's all.

But since you obviously know all the plays that were called by the Texan's coaching staff last year, and you know what checkdown options Carr had and didn't make, and you know what his reads were (and if he even had any) that he missed, you are obviously omniscient and we will all bow to your greater knowledge.

And, yes, that dripping noise in the background is sarcasm.

The Pencil Neck
08-06-2006, 08:24 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding your post but please tell me you are not saying you would rather have Sage starting at QB...

What misunderstanding? He's come right out and said as much in several posts.

thunderkyss
08-06-2006, 11:41 PM
You can say "you're gonna do" ... but you're not an NFL quarterback, and I suspect you were never even a high school quarterback. It doesn't work that way. Why not David Carr call the defenses too? Make personnel substitutions? Conduct practices? Hell, since Carr has all of this fictional power all of a sudden, why not fire Capers and hire his dad? You can talk all day about systematically changing plays past an occasional audible (which itself must be allowed for by the coaches) but it doesn't happen, period. Not any quarterback for any coach for any team.

Peyton Manning has been given explicit privilege by the coaches to call his own offense at the line. That's very different from Peyton Manning calling his own plays contrary to the coaches' gameplan/orders ... so that's a 100% inapplicable example.

What "you would do" is be benched and unemployed.


far as I know...... there is only one reason to limit a QBs audible choices....... only one.

thunderkyss
08-06-2006, 11:45 PM
I've posted numerous times (as I've been on the team's sideline for four camp sessions) that Carr is doing well and looks much better this year. See the training camp threads for details. Is that "field doing the talking" enough for you?


So you're saying that Carr as a player, while taking into accounts all that surrounded him last year, didn't play as well as he could have...... since he looks much better....... as opposed to just better.....

'cause that's all I'm saying.... but what do I know having never been a highschool QB like I'm sure you had...

thunderkyss
08-06-2006, 11:49 PM
All I know is that if my boss tells me to do something and I take it upon myself to do something different because I think it is the right way or better way, I wouldn't have a job too long.

Depends........ do we win or loose??

I'm going to do my job.... if my job accomplishes the goals of the business, then what do I have to fear??

If I am good at my job, I'll get another one... or start my own company... or whatever.....

Carr's too young, and has too much money to be worried about loosing his pension.

thunderkyss
08-06-2006, 11:51 PM
And if you get a reputation as a guy that's a loose cannon like that, you won't find employment in that line of work for very long, either.

Only if you keep screwing up......

thunderkyss
08-06-2006, 11:55 PM
Exactly, that's what's weird. 2 years ago, everything was starting to click and then wham, everything falls to pieces.

IIRC, Capers' goal was always to keep the game close and then try to win it at the end. He wanted the D to basically win the game and the O not to lose it. To protect Carr, we went to a max-protect scheme that basically crippled us. At least, that was the way I saw it. I think that Capers & Pendry just didn't trust their own o-line.

The Bears got into the playoffs like that.... The Steelers and the Ravens have won SuperBowls that way..... heck, a lot of teams have won SuperBowls that way.

thunderkyss
08-06-2006, 11:59 PM
It wasn't on Carr's back to get it done, in terms of playcalling. Capers and Pendry made absolutely sure that the world knew that THEY called the plays and the QB carried them out.



Is that the way it worked when Capers took the Panthers to the NFC Championship game??

Or was that something special he devised for our offense??

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 12:01 AM
Well, here's a clip so you can see for yourself:

http://www.khou.com/sharedcontent/Vi...9747&catId=505

I like the second clip where you see Carr stand in the pocket, duck a defender a little bit, always keeping his eyes open and not on assuming the fetal position, and then delivering a strike to the receiver.

Granted, it's not a real team of defenders out there...but he's looking better.


So you're saying he didn't look good...... or half way decent for a 4 year starter before??

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 12:02 AM
So maybe it is just a we hate Carr type crusade going on, still hating him after a 3500 yard season and promising future? Maybe I need to go back to the inagural season to see how some felt then? All I know is that I may not be a big Carr enthusiast, but I'd prefer to root for a winner, and if we are busy getting new QB's in then we will have to hear that rebuilding word that I hate so much,in which they (Texans) will ask for a few more years to get it tigether. Win now or show some significant promise that's all I need from the guy. Fairly or unfairly criticized, just make it happen now BA-BY :ok:


But all the Carr supporters are the ones saying we'll be lucky to be 8-8 at the end of the year......

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 12:06 AM
What exactly is it that you think we are doing??? New front office, new coaching staff, a slew of new players.....we scrapped pretty much EVERYBODY except Carr and are starting over....we are rebuilding....you know that 5 year plan we heard so much about? Well start the clock over to year 1, because that just happened. You can go back to the inagural season if you like......I was nothing but optimistic about the man...gave him a pass his first 2 years......but he never showed the growth he needed to show.


Flanagan, Putz, Moulds, and Cook....... those are our only new starters on offense. 4 out of 11 ain't rebuilding.

Mario, Weaver, Cowart?? Ryans?? 4 out of 11..... we aren't rebuilding......

tulexan
08-07-2006, 12:24 AM
The Bears got into the playoffs like that.... The Steelers and the Ravens have won SuperBowls that way..... heck, a lot of teams have won SuperBowls that way.

The only problem is that we didn't have the defense that the Bears, Steelers, and Ravens have/had.

Wolf
08-07-2006, 12:38 AM
The Bears got into the playoffs like that.... The Steelers and the Ravens have won SuperBowls that way..... heck, a lot of teams have won SuperBowls that way.

my goodness thunderkisss. you have to compare apples with apples..our defense was ranked 30ish.. it is one thing for our defense to be ranked within (what you listed) and win and another where they are ranked different

you have got to be realistic here

Wolf
08-07-2006, 12:38 AM
The only problem is that we didn't have the defense that the Bears, Steelers, and Ravens have/had.

exaclty..yet these people compare apples to oranges

TwinSisters
08-07-2006, 12:46 AM
The Bears and the Steelers had fairly good offenses.

Walter Payton wasn't exactly what you would call a goldbricker. Neither was Swann, Stallworth, Harris, Bradshaw, Fuqua, Webster... even then I bet I am missing some.

swtbound07
08-07-2006, 12:50 AM
Maybe I am misunderstanding your post but please tell me you are not saying you would rather have Sage starting at QB...


that is EXACTLY what I am saying.

RTP2110
08-07-2006, 01:11 AM
Its funny how some people continue to defend Carr like someone was talking about their mother. Many of you are so optimistic, yet cannot state reasons for being so. You only offer a list of excuses for Carr's poor performance longer than a list of why smoking is bad for you.

Why is this year different than any other? "It just takes some people longer than others." LOL! Did Carr make a 6 on his Wonderlic or is he too dim to pick up the pro game? He's only been playing pro football longer than it takes most people to graduate college.

Is he actually going through his progressions this year?

Has he finally learned that running out of bound behind the line of scrimmage is a sack instead of just throwing the ball away?

Will he actually check to a pass?

I love the whole "David's looking pretty good so far in training camp" pitch because everyone looks like an all-star vs. their own defense (especially one that is as weak as the Texans').


I will preface this post by saying that I'm no football ''expert''. I never even played organized football. I surely don't have much of a ''scout's eye''. But, I play alot of Madden and watch tons of football since the Texans were born. I'm learning. I can't break down Carr's play and tell you what he's doing right or wrong. I can tell when Carr does something really good or really bad.

Now, it is my opinion that Carr's faults are the result of bad coaching, and that he can still be a succesfull, productive, Pro Bowl caliber QB given the right coaching. I have been to every Texans' practice that was open to the fans except for one. What I have seen is a totally different QB in Carr (a totally different offense too). What I have seen is night and day compared to last year. Completion to Johnson on the quick slant. Then to Moulds on a curl, then to Joppru on a drag route, hitting the backs out of the backfield, TE's down the seam, Johnson on the deep routes. It's unreal, Carr looks 10 times better than I have ever seen him. The one knock I always did have on Carr, was how he locked on to one reciever. I believe that was because he had no other option, because now I watch for that in the practices. I have noticed him stare down a guy a time or two, but for the most part Carr is making reads and progessions better than I have ever seen.

Now, in your post you say, ''Many of you are so optimistic, yet cannot state reasons for being so.'' Well let me give you my reason. Like I said, I'm no expert but, Carr has endorsements from Kubiak, McNair, Reeves, many NFL coaching candidates, even Casserly and Capers. When Kubiak was hired he watched every play in Carr's 4 year career, and decided he's the man for the job. Those guys are the experts. Those guys know more about NFL football than any of us typing on a message board probably ever will. If that many experts have faith and belief in Carr, then that's good enough for me. All JMHO.

Ibar_Harry
08-07-2006, 02:59 AM
I will preface this post by saying that I'm no football ''expert''. I never even played organized football. I surely don't have much of a ''scout's eye''. But, I play alot of Madden and watch tons of football since the Texans were born. I'm learning. I can't break down Carr's play and tell you what he's doing right or wrong. I can tell when Carr does something really good or really bad.

Now, it is my opinion that Carr's faults are the result of bad coaching, and that he can still be a succesfull, productive, Pro Bowl caliber QB given the right coaching. I have been to every Texans' practice that was open to the fans except for one. What I have seen is a totally different QB in Carr (a totally different offense too). What I have seen is night and day compared to last year. Completion to Johnson on the quick slant. Then to Moulds on a curl, then to Joppru on a drag route, hitting the backs out of the backfield, TE's down the seam, Johnson on the deep routes. It's unreal, Carr looks 10 times better than I have ever seen him. The one knock I always did have on Carr, was how he locked on to one reciever. I believe that was because he had no other option, because now I watch for that in the practices. I have noticed him stare down a guy a time or two, but for the most part Carr is making reads and progessions better than I have ever seen.

Now, in your post you say, ''Many of you are so optimistic, yet cannot state reasons for being so.'' Well let me give you my reason. Like I said, I'm no expert but, Carr has endorsements from Kubiak, McNair, Reeves, many NFL coaching candidates, even Casserly and Capers. When Kubiak was hired he watched every play in Carr's 4 year career, and decided he's the man for the job. Those guys are the experts. Those guys know more about NFL football than any of us typing on a message board probably ever will. If that many experts have faith and belief in Carr, then that's good enough for me. All JMHO.

Interesting comments because I have maintained the locking was the result of coaching. They were using max protect with one go to guy. Just doesn't work that well in the NFL anymore. I keep saying we are going to pass more than most people think. Kubiak will adapt to what his players do best. Right now, our strength is in our receiving core. We have two number 1 WR's and some good receiving TE's. Its going to be interesting. Kubiak might run a lot in preseason to test his backs, but to also mislead the other teams. But when the season starts look for them to stretch the field and go for knock out punch. We can deliver it in a hurry this year.

AfricanCracker
08-07-2006, 03:39 AM
did anybody watch the eagles/raiders game??? Jabar Gaffney is on the eagles now, and wow.. does that guy accomplish anything on the field??? I can see why carr must of had fits with the set of players around aj and dd... he will be much improved this upcoming season with the replacement of gaffney and bradford with moulds and walter.. should be interesting....

TK_Gamer
08-07-2006, 06:25 AM
the system is gonna be perfect for us, zone blocking doesnt net huge gains but what it does is gain a steady 3 to 4 yds per carry. so you soften em up till they have to bring a saftey and linebacker to the line, then you bootleg/pa the juggler shot. if they dont succumb to that you pick away with the cross and slant routes with te's and fb's till they spread out, then its back to the 4 yd run. before they can adjust to this onslaught its allready too late, and we can keep rotating backs and crammin that 4 yards down their throat.

yer right though, the big difference with our version of kubiaks offense is 2 elite recievers. if they make a mistake, i think we will be goin deep on em.

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 08:09 AM
The only problem is that we didn't have the defense that the Bears, Steelers, and Ravens have/had.

The Bears got into the playoffs like that.... The Steelers and the Ravens have won SuperBowls that way..... heck, a lot of teams have won SuperBowls that way.

my goodness thunderkisss. you have to compare apples with apples..our defense was ranked 30ish.. it is one thing for our defense to be ranked within (what you listed) and win and another where they are ranked different

you have got to be realistic here


exaclty..yet these people compare apples to oranges

and offensively we were 30th?? but you want us to open it up like the Colts??

I'm just saying don't knock Caper's style of football, it's a sound philosophy...... it works, it wins games, and it wins SuperBowls.....

We didn't win games, but it wasn't because of our style of play.........

TK_Gamer
08-07-2006, 08:31 AM
capers strategy does one thing, keep the other team off the field. the texans did best when the defense was clicking and we could keep the status quo, then we couldnt execute on offense and instead of barely winning(wich is capers goal) we barely lost. its a loser mentality to make up for inadequacies in your offense, and stress the the strengths in your defense. last year we had too much of the former, and not enough of the latter. personally i would rather play to win, offense and defense. I think no matter how we do this year, kubiak will play to win and it will be entertaining and make our team better.

tsip
08-07-2006, 11:44 AM
"I'm just saying don't knock Caper's style of football, it's a sound philosophy...... it works, it wins games, and it wins SuperBowls..... "

There is no other coach in the NFL that runs Caper's style of football-
-you don't score, we won't score--last drive of game that scores points wins
-got the lead, sit on it
-use only 1 RB until he drops
-use same game plan from week to week and make no adjustments during the game
-be predictable
-use the same plays over and over (brickwall theory)

...etc.etc.etc.

It amazes me that people use Caper's name in the same sentence with Cohwer(sp) or Belicheck. These coaches 'play to win' . Sure, they have certain styles of plays they will use but---unlike Capers--if those plays aren't working, they'll try something else. Caper's 'subscribes' to the:brickwall theory that if you do things the same way enough, they will eventually work...and, these coaches learn from their mistakes...Capers doesn't think he makes any, as it is all about 'execution.'

tulexan
08-07-2006, 11:46 AM
and offensively we were 30th?? but you want us to open it up like the Colts??

I'm just saying don't knock Caper's style of football, it's a sound philosophy...... it works, it wins games, and it wins SuperBowls.....

We didn't win games, but it wasn't because of our style of play.........

Our offense was 30th because of his coaching style.

jerek
08-07-2006, 11:57 AM
Our offense was 30th because of his coaching style.

Our offense was 30th because David Carr is a sissy and refused to disregard the gameplan and call his own plays at the line. He doesn't have "it" and if his teammates respected him, they would have caught passes that hit them in the hands. His long flowing hair interfered with his vision of the field and if he spent less time in church and didn't show up late to and leave early from practice every single day of his life, then he might be able to drill tacks with the ball from 150 yards out like Vince Young can, and we wouldn't have gone 2-14 last year, and Fangio wouldn't have still been calling Cover 2 out of the 3-4, and Jerome Mathis wouldn't have gotten on that motorcycle, and all of our other crappy players who got cut and haven't been resigned would still be here, and Domanick Davis wouldn't have hurt his knee because our QB would have passed for 6,000 yards and Davis could have sat back and just blocked for Carr, but truthfully he wouldn't have had to do that either because our O-line wouldn't have given up those 48 sacks they were credited with upon review of tape. Then again, who has time for watching tape?

Frankly tulexan, it's Carr's fault, and it's about time you and everybody else around here gets that.

chuckm
08-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Our offense was 30th because David Carr is a sissy and refused to disregard the gameplan and call his own plays at the line. He doesn't have "it" and if his teammates respected him, they would have caught passes that hit them in the hands. His long flowing hair interfered with his vision of the field and if he spent less time in church and didn't show up late to and leave early from practice every single day of his life, then he might be able to drill tacks with the ball from 150 yards out like Vince Young can, and we wouldn't have gone 2-14 last year, and Fangio wouldn't have still been calling Cover 2 out of the 3-4, and Jerome Mathis wouldn't have gotten on that motorcycle, and all of our other crappy players who got cut and haven't been resigned would still be here, and Domanick Davis wouldn't have hurt his knee because our QB would have passed for 6,000 yards and Davis could have sat back and just blocked for Carr, but truthfully he wouldn't have had to do that either because our O-line wouldn't have given up those 48 sacks they were credited with upon review of tape. Then again, who has time for watching tape?

Frankly tulexan, it's Carr's fault, and it's about time you and everybody else around here gets that.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jerek again.


Aren't you glad you got that off your chest?

texan279
08-07-2006, 12:05 PM
Our offense was 30th because David Carr is a sissy and refused to disregard the gameplan and call his own plays at the line. He doesn't have "it" and if his teammates respected him, they would have caught passes that hit them in the hands. His long flowing hair interfered with his vision of the field and if he spent less time in church and didn't show up late to and leave early from practice every single day of his life, then he might be able to drill tacks with the ball from 150 yards out like Vince Young can, and we wouldn't have gone 2-14 last year, and Fangio wouldn't have still been calling Cover 2 out of the 3-4, and Jerome Mathis wouldn't have gotten on that motorcycle, and all of our other crappy players who got cut and haven't been resigned would still be here, and Domanick Davis wouldn't have hurt his knee because our QB would have passed for 6,000 yards and Davis could have sat back and just blocked for Carr, but truthfully he wouldn't have had to do that either because our O-line wouldn't have given up those 48 sacks they were credited with upon review of tape. Then again, who has time for watching tape?

Frankly tulexan, it's Carr's fault, and it's about time you and everybody else around here gets that.

:rofl: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jerek again.

tulexan
08-07-2006, 12:08 PM
Our offense was 30th because David Carr is a sissy and refused to disregard the gameplan and call his own plays at the line. He doesn't have "it" and if his teammates respected him, they would have caught passes that hit them in the hands. His long flowing hair interfered with his vision of the field and if he spent less time in church and didn't show up late to and leave early from practice every single day of his life, then he might be able to drill tacks with the ball from 150 yards out like Vince Young can, and we wouldn't have gone 2-14 last year, and Fangio wouldn't have still been calling Cover 2 out of the 3-4, and Jerome Mathis wouldn't have gotten on that motorcycle, and all of our other crappy players who got cut and haven't been resigned would still be here, and Domanick Davis wouldn't have hurt his knee because our QB would have passed for 6,000 yards and Davis could have sat back and just blocked for Carr, but truthfully he wouldn't have had to do that either because our O-line wouldn't have given up those 48 sacks they were credited with upon review of tape. Then again, who has time for watching tape?

Frankly tulexan, it's Carr's fault, and it's about time you and everybody else around here gets that.


Sorry, I forgot that he lacked "it". If only there was someone in the draft who had "it"

titan hater
08-07-2006, 12:20 PM
Our offense was 30th because David Carr is a sissy and refused to disregard the gameplan and call his own plays at the line. He doesn't have "it" and if his teammates respected him, they would have caught passes that hit them in the hands. His long flowing hair interfered with his vision of the field and if he spent less time in church and didn't show up late to and leave early from practice every single day of his life, then he might be able to drill tacks with the ball from 150 yards out like Vince Young can, and we wouldn't have gone 2-14 last year, and Fangio wouldn't have still been calling Cover 2 out of the 3-4, and Jerome Mathis wouldn't have gotten on that motorcycle, and all of our other crappy players who got cut and haven't been resigned would still be here, and Domanick Davis wouldn't have hurt his knee because our QB would have passed for 6,000 yards and Davis could have sat back and just blocked for Carr, but truthfully he wouldn't have had to do that either because our O-line wouldn't have given up those 48 sacks they were credited with upon review of tape. Then again, who has time for watching tape?

Frankly tulexan, it's Carr's fault, and it's about time you and everybody else around here gets that.

I guess Carr is the sole reason why we were so bad last year...Come to think of it: David is the reason for the war in the mid east as well.

Sarcasim aside...David was to blame for a lot last year, however, if the coaches failed to recognize this would it not be reaonable to blame his coaches as well? Could you imagine a QB who would disregard his coaches calls. I think more time then not that QB would find himself on the bench...even if Dom was the coach...

jerek
08-07-2006, 01:13 PM
I guess Carr is the sole reason why we were so bad last year...Come to think of it: David is the reason for the war in the mid east as well.

Sarcasim aside...David was to blame for a lot last year, however, if the coaches failed to recognize this would it not be reaonable to blame his coaches as well? Could you imagine a QB who would disregard his coaches calls. I think more time then not that QB would find himself on the bench...even if Dom was the coach...

Of course David made his mistakes, and of course he shoulders part of that blame. Yes, there were times where he threw a bad or ill-advised pass. Yes, there were instances in which he should have known to throw the ball out of bounds rather than run out and take lost yardage. Yes, he is well paid relative to production at this point, and this is a put up or get out year for the guy. Straight up.

Just get annoyed with the avalanche of hubris coming from the mouths of people that have anywhere from not much to near-zero knowledge of football and are merely sporting a "player-hating" agenda. "Carr should've called something else" ... "I don't read about Carr's extra practice in my weekly sixty-second skim of McClain's column, ergo Carr never works extra practice, ergo Carr is undedicated" ... stuff like that. Please. Just stupid.

WWX
08-07-2006, 01:44 PM
Has anyone here ever played behind a real crappy coaching staff? Or played for a team where the rich kids receive first priority as a starter? Any situation where you donít have good quality leadership will mostly end in disaster. Nobody hired Capers for four years after his time with Carolina. Then we picked him up of course. And in his eight years he had one season above 500. 48-80 as a head coach, correct me if Iím wrong. Thatís where I put most of the blame.

:logo:

BTW Dom came to Houston with 30-34 record.

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 01:48 PM
Our offense was 30th because David Carr is a sissy and refused to disregard the gameplan and call his own plays at the line. He doesn't have "it" and if his teammates respected him, they would have caught passes that hit them in the hands. His long flowing hair interfered with his vision of the field and if he spent less time in church and didn't show up late to and leave early from practice every single day of his life, then he might be able to drill tacks with the ball from 150 yards out like Vince Young can, and we wouldn't have gone 2-14 last year, and Fangio wouldn't have still been calling Cover 2 out of the 3-4, and Jerome Mathis wouldn't have gotten on that motorcycle, and all of our other crappy players who got cut and haven't been resigned would still be here, and Domanick Davis wouldn't have hurt his knee because our QB would have passed for 6,000 yards and Davis could have sat back and just blocked for Carr, but truthfully he wouldn't have had to do that either because our O-line wouldn't have given up those 48 sacks they were credited with upon review of tape. Then again, who has time for watching tape?

Frankly tulexan, it's Carr's fault, and it's about time you and everybody else around here gets that.

So are you saying that teams have not won football games through ball control and defense?? that it is flawed philosophy??

Or are you insinuating that I am inferring all that you've just insinuated that I said??

chuckm
08-07-2006, 01:49 PM
Or are you insinuating that I am inferring all that you've just insinuated that I said??


OK, who has the enigma machine?

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 01:59 PM
hehehe

jerek
08-07-2006, 02:06 PM
So are you saying that teams have not won football games through ball control and defense?? that it is flawed philosophy??

Or are you insinuating that I am inferring all that you've just insinuated that I said??

Uhhh ... what?

I don't know what you are inferring. If you meant to discuss what you are implying, then yes, you have quite clearly implied a disproportinate (IMO) level of blame for the Texans' woes to Carr, both in this thread and the countless others you have littered with anti-Carr rhetoric, like so many droppings in a week-old rabbit cage.

Teams win with ball control as it applies to successfully maintaining and scoring offensive drives (we didn't do that maintaing and scoring part much last year.) Teams win with defense (we sure as hell didn't do that either.) Not sure how that applies to my obviously sarcastic statements about Carr, or is supposed to be taken as the primary implication of your largely anti-Carr history of posting.

titan hater
08-07-2006, 02:14 PM
Of course David made his mistakes, and of course he shoulders part of that blame. Yes, there were times where he threw a bad or ill-advised pass. Yes, there were instances in which he should have known to throw the ball out of bounds rather than run out and take lost yardage. Yes, he is well paid relative to production at this point, and this is a put up or get out year for the guy. Straight up.

Just get annoyed with the avalanche of hubris coming from the mouths of people that have anywhere from not much to near-zero knowledge of football and are merely sporting a "player-hating" agenda. "Carr should've called something else" ... "I don't read about Carr's extra practice in my weekly sixty-second skim of McClain's column, ergo Carr never works extra practice, ergo Carr is undedicated" ... stuff like that. Please. Just stupid.

wholeheartly agree with ya

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 02:16 PM
Uhhh ... what?

I don't know what you are inferring. If you meant to discuss what you are implying, then yes, you have quite clearly implied a disproportinate (IMO) level of blame for the Texans' woes to Carr, both in this thread and the countless others you have littered with anti-Carr rhetoric, like so many droppings in a week-old rabbit cage.


Show me where.........

All I've ever said, was that Carr has not played like a 4 year starter should be playiing....

I have not blamed one loss on the kid...... I have said that he is just as much to blame for those loses as Victor Riley, Milford Brown, Jabar Gaffney, Gary Walker, Jason Babin...... etc........ etc.......


Teams win with ball control as it applies to successfully maintaining and scoring offensive drives (we didn't do that maintaing and scoring part much last year.) Teams win with defense (we sure as hell didn't do that either.) Not sure how that applies to my obviously sarcastic statements about Carr, or is supposed to be taken as the primary implication of your largely anti-Carr history of posting.

I said we didn't lose because Capers believed in a ball control offense, and strong defense...... and that is all that means.

Hulk75
08-07-2006, 02:24 PM
Show me where.........

All I've ever said, was that Carr has not played like a 4 year starter should be playiing....

I have not blamed one loss on the kid...... I have said that he is just as much to blame for those loses as Victor Riley, Milford Brown, Jabar Gaffney, Gary Walker, Jason Babin...... etc........ etc.......



I said we didn't lose because Capers believed in a ball control offense, and strong defense...... and that is all that means.
WOW, is thunder fighting with another person about Carr. SHOCKER!

jerek
08-07-2006, 02:25 PM
Show me where.........

All I've ever said, was that Carr has not played like a 4 year starter should be playiing....

I have not blamed one loss on the kid...... I have said that he is just as much to blame for those loses as Victor Riley, Milford Brown, Jabar Gaffney, Gary Walker, Jason Babin...... etc........ etc.......

How in the world do you figure? Do you watch football? Victor ******* Riley? Gary Walker? Tell me something: why haven't either of those guys been signed yet? If Marcus Coleman drops the ball on that onside kick that would have sealed our win against St. Louis, is that equally Carr's fault too? What, Carr was calling the defensive plays? Carr told Kris Brown to miss all those field goals? I don't even know where you get this stuff.

I said we didn't lose because Capers believed in a ball control offense, and strong defense...... and that is all that means.

Calling Capers' system a "ball control offense" is like shooting from half court and calling it a "three point offense." True from certain technical standpoint, but no one's surprised when you get it handed to you. Capers can "believe in" a strong defense all he likes, but since we never "executed" such a defense, I'd love to hear how you're going to spin the blame on David for that one too. If the coaches implement the system and both call boneheaded plays and repeatedly utilize personnel who are obviously incompetent, who's fault is that?

GP
08-07-2006, 02:26 PM
2 days ago, highroller28 hijacked this thread and turned it into a "Carr stinks" forum. It took 11 posts before he hit with the 12th post in the thread.

Of course, we all played our part and fanned his flames...but man, it would have been nice to discuss training camp and to NOT re-hash the old David Carr Stinks debate.

Would have been nice....but, oh well.

Hulk75
08-07-2006, 02:28 PM
and offensively we were 30th?? but you want us to open it up like the Colts??

I'm just saying don't knock Caper's style of football, it's a sound philosophy...... it works, it wins games, and it wins SuperBowls.....

We didn't win games, but it wasn't because of our style of play.........
That could by FAAAAAAAAAAAR be the craziest thing I have heard in a while.

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 02:31 PM
from another thread....

Not at all. I've freely admitted he's done both. There's just a difference in the implied level of blame. Your writing, whether intentional or not, assigns Carr blame in spite of all of the obvious negative factors;


Go look through my multitude of anti-Carr posts(and I admit, there are a lot of them) and find me one, where I attributed a loss to David Carr.......

won't find it..... never happened.

AFAIK(or recall), I've never even blamed Capers for a loss...... we lost football games, I'm not hung up on blaming anyone.

My worst criticism of David Carr has been after 4 years in the league, he still looks like a 1st year player... right or wrong, or who ever's fault it is doesn't matter to me.

What I hate, is all these "David's got it Bad" Carr apologists... who can't seem to leave the trash on Carr's doorstep(the stuff that actually belongs there, not everything)...... yet they are all over Babin, TJ, Buchannon, Gaffney, Bradford, Milford Brown, Seth Wand....... and a whole gaggle of other players who have had the same handicap Carr has......... & being #1 overall, David should have required less coaching than all the players I've mentioned........ Save Buch & Bradford.........

i.e. Carr just sucks. My take leans more toward a causal relationship; Carr performs poorly primarily because of bad supporting cast and laughable coaching.


who cares why........ David performed poorly, all I'm saying is that David performed poorly. I'm not saying that he can't perform better..... I'm not saying that he is a bust..... I'm just saying he performed poorly.


It's like asking you or anyone else to deliver a package to a destination ten miles away and then, rather than giving you a car to use, making you walk it.

Not exactly.... it's not like we gave David a baseball team...

it's more akin to giving me a stick, and I only know how to drive automatic....... I'll get there eventually... I may not look like Mario Andretti, but after 4 years, I'd at least look competent.

Look, I'm not going to debate this any further with you. If you can't see that Carr is human and makes mistakes, maybe even more than many other great quarterbacks, and has had zero support to cover him on those mistakes, then there's nothing much I can say or do to convince you otherwise. Other than to say "I told you so" when Carr has a good year this time around ... though I suppose you will attribute that one to his teammates and coaching. Some guys just can't win, no matter how you slice it.

If David plays like a probowler, I'll say David played like a probowler.

I won't be wrong, because I never said he can't ever be a problowler...... I just said he didn't look like a 4 year vet last year.

Runner
08-07-2006, 02:33 PM
2 days ago, highroller28 hijacked this thread and turned it into a "Carr stinks" forum. It took 11 posts before he hit with the 12th post in the thread.


I prefer "devolved" to "hijacked". :)

GP
08-07-2006, 02:43 PM
Not exactly.... it's not like we gave David a baseball team...

it's more akin to giving me a stick, and I only know how to drive automatic....... I'll get there eventually... I may not look like Mario Andretti, but after 4 years, I'd at least look competent.


If David plays like a probowler, I'll say David played like a probowler.

I won't be wrong, because I never said he can't ever be a problowler...... I just said he didn't look like a 4 year vet last year.

Driving a stick shift is equated with big, fast, angry men driving a QB into the ground while a staff of coaches stand on the sideline with their mouths open, wondering if they should call a run, or a run, or maybe a five-yard curl on the next play.

Wow. Yeah, I'm starting to see the similarities...:rolleyes:

And your defense of "I'm just saying he didn't look like a four-year vet..." is getting old. We all agree on that. It's pretty much obvious to all of us. But you keep making that statement the cornerstone of your posts on this topic, and I can't understand why. Outside of stating the obvious (that Carr doesn't look like a 4-year vet) what else are you offering to this conversation?

I'm getting dizzy. Is anybody else getting dizzy, too?

infantrycak
08-07-2006, 03:02 PM
far as I know...... there is only one reason to limit a QBs audible choices....... only one.

Troy Aikman, one of the smarter QB's around, has said several times he had zilch, nada for audibles during the Cowboys' prime. Guess JJ just thought he was too stupid to handle any--well that or it was the design of the O.

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2006, 03:26 PM
The best thing for the Texans is that Carr plays like a player worthy of the first pick in a draft . Then if Mario plays like we all hope he can , we now have two vital pieces to the puzzle . This is the best possible situation for the Texans .

Anyone think that Vince will have a better year than Carr this year ? How about next year any takers ? If we took Vince we'd have a rookie QB learning the ropes ... who may not be the passer of the QB (we drafted with the 1st pick )we let go and no Mario to boot .

The Texans have talent , they were a team with no direction . I think that the Texans just need to ripen on the vine a little and next year in the draft I bet they take a LB or a CB in the 1st RD and they'll be on their way .

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 03:50 PM
Driving a stick shift is equated with big, fast, angry men driving a QB into the ground while a staff of coaches stand on the sideline with their mouths open, wondering if they should call a run, or a run, or maybe a five-yard curl on the next play.

Wow. Yeah, I'm starting to see the similarities...:rolleyes:


You're right.... walking across town is soooo much more similar......:rolleyes:


And your defense of "I'm just saying he didn't look like a four-year vet..." is getting old. We all agree on that. It's pretty much obvious to all of us. But you keep making that statement the cornerstone of your posts on this topic, and I can't understand why. Outside of stating the obvious (that Carr doesn't look like a 4-year vet) what else are you offering to this conversation?

I'm getting dizzy. Is anybody else getting dizzy, too?


my head is spinning as well........... I say David Carr sucked last year, and instead of..... "We all agree, David sucked last year"....... i get 12 pages of guys saying David didn't suck, then on the 13th page, they all say "we all agree that David suck, but you have to understand why he sucked..... "

Because I have no problem with the various reasons why David sucked...

titan hater
08-07-2006, 03:52 PM
Can't we all just let it go....He is here and Young is not. Nuff said....

chuckm
08-07-2006, 03:54 PM
Can't we all just let it go....He is here and Young is not. Nuff said....

Please edit your post before someone notices the word "Young" ........

titan hater
08-07-2006, 03:56 PM
Please edit your post before someone notices the word "Young" ........

my bad....

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 04:02 PM
Hey thunderkyss,

I, too, have gone out on a limb and predicted we finish 2nd in the division winning two road games. Not as bold a prediction as yours but still.

Off topic, I see you're from PA...I was born at St Mary's...:bananasplit:

Is Monseaux's still in business? That was some gooood food for a place that looked like it was vacant/abandoned.

ocd........ so sorry I missed this... I was also born at St Mary's..... cool.

anyway, I don't think Monseaux's has been in business for a while..... i haven't got any food from there, since I was in highschool..... late 80's.....

but yeah, they had some good food there.

WWX
08-07-2006, 04:32 PM
Can't we all just let it go....He is here and Young is not. Nuff said....


They wonít let go of their pessimistic views until Carr proves that heís actually a good QB. Iím glad we have him now with some experience under his belt, a better team, and an all star coaching staff. And for whoever said Capers style wins Super BowlsÖ Tell us what his style is because all I saw was very bad play calling for four years strait. I also saw a very young QB take a beating and still show signs of excellence. Yea he had a bad 05 we all saw that and it sucked ***. But I myself knew that year was coming whether 05, 06, 07Ö because Capers cannot, will not, ever win a freakin Super Bowl. Yea he has a DECENT, not close to good, 3-4 defensive strategy. He might make an OK Def. Coordinator but lacks what it takes to be a successful NFL Head Coach. Dom has proved himself that he canít be a successful coach because he is too predictable and too weak in most coaching aspects.

:fireball:

TwinSisters
08-07-2006, 05:26 PM
Can't we all just let it go....He is here and Young is not. Nuff said....

I think we should trade him to Denver for Plummer and Bailey. Kubiak says he is a perfect fit for the Denver offense and they drafted Cutler and need leadership. So we ship him to Denver for a DB, maybe a RB, and a few mid round picks.

Hell, toss Travis Johnson into the deal too... that might net us an extra LBer.

yeah here it is
Plummer, Bailey, Wilson, 3rd, 4th rounder
for
Carr, Johnson, Babin, Joppru

that's a 2nd, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th
for a
1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd

That's a deal man!

:read:

Do you think your fans expected you to go with defensive picks this year?

Maybe, but these guys help us out. We do not have a good blocking tight end and a great receiver on the receiving end of David Carr's passes. We can cause some problems when we line these guys up with Corey Bradford, Jabar Gaffney and Billy Miller.

Casserly - April 2003 from NFL.com

Texans_Chick
08-07-2006, 05:30 PM
http://www.madogre.com/images/threadjack.gif



http://metropolis.co.jp/tokyofeaturestories/372/pics/recordtitle.jpg


Yawn

The Dude Abides
08-07-2006, 05:34 PM
http://www.madogre.com/images/threadjack.gif



http://metropolis.co.jp/tokyofeaturestories/372/pics/recordtitle.jpg


Yawn

Let's just blame Chuckm since he started this thread. :shades:

Jokes, I got jokes.

GP
08-07-2006, 05:41 PM
my head is spinning as well........... I say David Carr sucked last year, and instead of..... "We all agree, David sucked last year"....... i get 12 pages of guys saying David didn't suck, then on the 13th page, they all say "we all agree that David suck, but you have to understand why he sucked..... "

Because I have no problem with the various reasons why David sucked...

List the posters, and give evidence of ALL these guys you speak of who think he had an awesome year and didn't stink it up!

Don't make blanket statements about others without being able to back it up. You act as if there are a ton of posters who think David was awesome, and I ain't seeing the same thing.

I see people who admit he stunk, but now think he's going to flourish. That's me right there: He did have a horrible year, and it reminds me of what it's like to go fishing without any bait to put on the hook.

There's a similarity for ya': Capers' philosophy was about like fishing with a baitless hook...nobody's gonna' catch any fish no matter how good an angler they are.

GP
08-07-2006, 06:02 PM
19 MINUTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

An amazing 19 minutes with no replies to this thread.

Could this thread actually be in the last stages of death?

Sorry for rescuing it...but maybe my post could be the last!

"You, too, can help prevent thread fires."

texan279
08-07-2006, 06:04 PM
This thread to me is like a horrible car accident, you don't want to watch but you just can't look away.

swtbound07
08-07-2006, 06:29 PM
The best thing for the Texans is that Carr plays like a player worthy of the first pick in a draft . Then if Mario plays like we all hope he can , we now have two vital pieces to the puzzle . This is the best possible situation for the Texans .

Anyone think that Vince will have a better year than Carr this year ? How about next year any takers ? If we took Vince we'd have a rookie QB learning the ropes ... who may not be the passer of the QB (we drafted with the 1st pick )we let go and no Mario to boot .

The Texans have talent , they were a team with no direction . I think that the Texans just need to ripen on the vine a little and next year in the draft I bet they take a LB or a CB in the 1st RD and they'll be on their way .


Yes. I'll take that Vince will have a better year than Carr this year AND next year.

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2006, 06:48 PM
Yes. I'll take that Vince will have a better year than Carr this year AND next year.
Allright whats the wager ?

Wolf
08-07-2006, 07:25 PM
hmm I wonder about vince has a better year.. is that in wins or in stats?

I say the Texans will have more wins

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2006, 07:33 PM
I'm going stats . I'm saying TDs , YDs , completion % and QB rating . :cowboy1:

TwinSisters
08-07-2006, 08:57 PM
This thread to me is like a horrible car accident, you don't want to watch but you just can't look away.

yes, let's get this back on topic then.

Since Smith said that both Griese and Plummer know how to operate the system, then we should be shopping Dave to the Bears just like Broncos are.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2532028

A trade with the Bears gives them a reliable back-up for Grossman, and we get two things fixed by getting Griese and Thomas Jones.

A QB that knows how the system already works and some help in the RB department where Davis might not make it.

We can then let Griese take the reigns until Sage is ready or start grooming a new starter while the line is being overhauled.

it could work.

Kaiser Toro
08-07-2006, 08:59 PM
Quack! Quack! :hunter:

Hulk75
08-07-2006, 09:15 PM
You're right.... walking across town is soooo much more similar......:rolleyes:



my head is spinning as well........... I say David Carr sucked last year, and instead of..... "We all agree, David sucked last year"....... i get 12 pages of guys saying David didn't suck, then on the 13th page, they all say "we all agree that David suck, but you have to understand why he sucked..... "

Because I have no problem with the various reasons why David sucked...
Now its funny how you put things.

You say that Carr Sucked last year and write about it for however many months but what gets me is that you dont have the wind to speak about other players. Dre SUCKED last year I believe the guy had a dropped ball in every game. How many times did Jabar have to run the wrong route before someone pulled him off the field. How about teach DD how to pick up a blitz, our group of TEs sucked worst in the NFL!

How about the Line, this is my favorite! Everyone- The line sucks o my gosh they are bad.

A VERY TALENTED coach comes in and makes 4 of the 5 lineman starting last year and makes them staters this year.................They say that the coaching on the line was HORRIBLE and everyone believes it and thinks now that the line is one of our strong points on Offense.
WHY is it that we (no some of you) can point the fingure at one guy all the time and say O he sucked we dont care why and write 5,000 posts about how bad 1 guy is and then say o no he was not the only one here are some more and write a sentence about what the others did wrong.
(above......Just saying we believe that our line was not as bad, but our QB was)

How many threads have you seen about our Pro Bowl WR sucking it up last year what did he do to get a pass from everyone? Pro Bowl Good for him but some of you are what have you done for me latleys.

It comes with the possition, your right but have some insight on other players instead of the obvous one that was not out there by himself!

I just tired of hearing about all this stuff in the past. Sick and tired. Our QB and team have a great chance to really show the NFL what kind of players we have down here, we have some GREAT coaches here now, yes GREAT they have proved it. SOOOOOOOOOO lets restart and see what happens this year with the guys if guys suck they suck if guys play like we know they can then accept that to, lets not drag last year on and on into the dirt.

We got great chance right now and I am pumped up about this year,period

edo783
08-07-2006, 09:29 PM
Interesting quote from Kubes today 8/7...think Carr can be and is on track to be a top 3-5 QB.

And Kubiak said this today....interesting in that he says Carr can be and is on track to be a top 3 - 5 QB.

“In this league, the coach and the quarterback have to have a great relationship,” Kubiak said. You know the pressure that’s on that guy taking the snaps and he has to know you are doing everything to make him better. It’s been good, I love it. That’s why I do what I do. I’ve been around a lot of quarterbacks and it’s a (heck) of a battle to get to the point where you are one of those top three or top-five quarterbacks in this league. That’s a battle and a tremendous accomplishment when it does happen, but I see a guy that can do it and he’s headed in that direction.”

WWX
08-07-2006, 10:01 PM
Interesting quote from Kubes today 8/7...think Carr can be and is on track to be a top 3-5 QB.

And Kubiak said this today....interesting in that he says Carr can be and is on track to be a top 3 - 5 QB.

ďIn this league, the coach and the quarterback have to have a great relationship,Ē Kubiak said. You know the pressure thatís on that guy taking the snaps and he has to know you are doing everything to make him better. Itís been good, I love it. Thatís why I do what I do. Iíve been around a lot of quarterbacks and itís a (heck) of a battle to get to the point where you are one of those top three or top-five quarterbacks in this league. Thatís a battle and a tremendous accomplishment when it does happen, but I see a guy that can do it and heís headed in that direction.Ē
Thatís a nice compliment from someone who coached two Super Bowl winning QBís.

tsip
08-07-2006, 10:31 PM
"Don't make blanket statements about others without being able to back it up."

...agree 100%, shame the thought does not apply to Carr :homer: 's

TexansLucky13
08-07-2006, 10:37 PM
...agree 100%, shame the thought does not apply to Carr :homer: 's

It's a shame that there are pretty much no thoughts that apply to anti-Carr :homer:s and VY :homer:s.

P.S. - Another dead thread....

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 11:28 PM
gpshafer_1976[/B]]List the posters, and give evidence of ALL these guys you speak of who think he had an awesome year and didn't stink it up!

Don't make blanket statements about others without being able to back it up. You act as if there are a ton of posters who think David was awesome, and I ain't seeing the same thing.

I see people who admit he stunk, but now think he's going to flourish. That's me right there: He did have a horrible year, and it reminds me of what it's like to go fishing without any bait to put on the hook.

There's a similarity for ya': Capers' philosophy was about like fishing with a baitless hook...nobody's gonna' catch any fish no matter how good an angler they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
He didn't sandbag anything, man.

Wake up, man: He's the QB. If you want to see us succeed, you'll stop the "I'm smarter than you are" act and get on board with the very real fact that the Texans' success is directly tied to the success of David Carr. The two are inseparable.

Amazing.

Posted by Thunderkyss
So what does last years failure say about our QB??


I'm just asking a simple question here....... from your response, I think you are saying if the team is successfull, it is directly related to the play of the QB. But if the team goes 2-14..... everyone but the QB is to blame......

maybe I'm reading it wrong... explain it to me..... you had a long posted typed, but decided to cheer Carr.....

And I am not saying that anyone thinks Carr was stellar...... perhaps I've used a bit of hyperbole.. .... ..... but let's say someone says TJ sucked last year....

how many times have you heard the reason TJ sucked was because the coaches didn't know how to deal with a player with ADD?? or that a Rookie like TJ needs a coach to help develop the obvious talent he has to be picked in the first round?? or that Fangio knew less about a 3-4 defense than Capers knew about offense.

Change TJ's name, with Babin's or Peeks... two DEs, having to learn to play linebacker with Fangio as the end all be all of how it should be done??

Or Milford Brown, Fred Weary, SethWand, and Hogdon having to learn to play offensive line, with the same guys responsible for not teaching Carr.

Carr sucked....... and bam..... 3 days of excuses...... but not for anyone else.

infantrycak
08-07-2006, 11:36 PM
Carr sucked....... and bam..... 3 days of excuses...... but not for anyone else.

Yeah, no one has ever raised a Peek was hampered by Fangio defense before. BS--I know, I've seen me do it.

thunderkyss
08-07-2006, 11:58 PM
Now its funny how you put things.

You say that Carr Sucked last year and write about it for however many months but what gets me is that you dont have the wind to speak about other players. Dre SUCKED last year I believe the guy had a dropped ball in every game. How many times did Jabar have to run the wrong route before someone pulled him off the field. How about teach DD how to pick up a blitz, our group of TEs sucked worst in the NFL!


They had bad coaches....



I just tired of hearing about all this stuff in the past. Sick and tired. Our QB and team have a great chance to really show the NFL what kind of players we have down here, we have some GREAT coaches here now, yes GREAT they have proved it. SOOOOOOOOOO lets restart and see what happens this year with the guys if guys suck they suck if guys play like we know they can then accept that to, lets not drag last year on and on into the dirt.


this would work better, if it were your first post in this thread....... then you just stay out of it all together... then it would look like you were sincere.

Instead, it looks like you were really interested for two days, then just gave up.

We got great chance right now and I am pumped up about this year,period

8-8...... IIRC...... that's not optomistic if you ask me..... that's accepting that we will not win 8 games before they are even played.... yeah, call it realistic expectations if you want....

but saying we won't be a good football team in '06, but we won't be a bad team, is hardly optomistic.

If..... you really want to know, I'd much rather not dog any of our players... but in my whole Vince Young before Reggie Campaign, I learned something.

It is okay to criticize every player on this team....... even the only productive player from the '05 season...... but not Carr....

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 12:10 AM
Yeah, no one has ever raised a Peek was hampered by Fangio defense before. BS--I know, I've seen me do it.

infantrycak............ I'd love to do nothing, but talk about you and you alone... but sadly, that is not the case...... true, I am surprised to hear that you've defended Peek....... I may have to take you off my "Inappropriate Man-Love towards David Carr" list. Of course this will have to be confirmed..... but I will be on the look out.


Or are you talking about the...... "Peek could prosper if he'd be allowed to just pin his ears back" argument?? That's not the same as a, "It'd be nice if we had someone to teach Carr....... I mean Peek how to be a LInebacke in a 3-4 defense"

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 09:24 AM
infantrycak............ I'd love to do nothing, but talk about you and you alone... but sadly, that is not the case...... true, I am surprised to hear that you've defended Peek....... I may have to take you off my "Inappropriate Man-Love towards David Carr" list. Of course this will have to be confirmed..... but I will be on the look out.

I used myself as an example of providing the kind of comment many people have made--you just choose to ignore them as you continue your little campaign--just like you have ignored repeated requests to show any track record of my making positive posts about Carr.

Or are you talking about the...... "Peek could prosper if he'd be allowed to just pin his ears back" argument?? That's not the same as a, "It'd be nice if we had someone to teach Carr....... I mean Peek how to be a LInebacke in a 3-4 defense"

It's exactly the same. The coaching staff (a) did not build their D to their players' strengths and implemented a poor system and (b) did not assist aka coach the players to improve their skills as evidenced by the recent discussion of Peek only having a single pass rushing move--you think maybe a good coach would have spent some time over the past 3 years teaching him a repertoire of moves?

chuckm
08-08-2006, 09:39 AM
I used myself as an example of providing the kind of comment many people have made--you just choose to ignore them as you continue your little campaign--just like you have ignored repeated requests to show any track record of my making positive posts about Carr.



Lay off TK .... he's a big Carr fan from way back ..... I enter into evidence a post from November 28th, 2005 BV (Before Vince) about Carr after the Arizona game ....


Did he do anything Stupid?? I mean we could have much worse than Carr. The kids got an arm, he's got the will to win, and he's not stupid. I think Carr can be doing alot better than the Houston Texans, and he'd be stupid(though I'd love it) if he decided to stay in Houston. The QB is not the problem, and that is one position you don't want to be trying to fill, while you are building a team.

I saw in this game, what I thought I was going to see all year. A team that was competitive, and explosive. DD had a good game, Wells was awesome, Andre is a stud, and he showed it..........Gafney didn't have his best game, if he did......we'd have won. Carr looked great, and I do mean Great, and the O-Line looked really good.

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 09:45 AM
Lay off TK .... he's a big Carr fan from way back ..... I enter into evidence a post from November 28th, 2005 BV (Before Vince) about Carr after the Arizona game ....


And even when I was pushing Vince, I was saying to trade down first, but if we are going to waste the pick, we'd be better off wasting it on Vince rather than Reggie Bush.....

ergo.... Carr is good enough for us..... but...

a) we are still judging him on potential &
b) he still faces the same odds of being a bust as any one we would have drafted in '06.

Picking Reggie IMHO would be a waste, because we
a) have a guy who has shown to be a producer in the NFl.... just as much as Jamal Lewis, Priest Holmes, and Larry Johnson...... considering how bad the entire team is. &
b) we have a coach that can turn Johnathan Wells into a 1500 yard producer.





but for some reason, just because someone says one(or a thousand :rollseyes:) bad thing about Carr...... then he's just a hater....... or a Vince Lover, or whatever......

I've been just as optomistic about Carr as any of you..... maybe more.

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 09:47 AM
Lay off TK .... he's a big Carr fan from way back ..... I enter into evidence a post from November 28th, 2005 BV (Before Vince) about Carr after the Arizona game ....

I know--he has just swung his hyperbole 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

GP
08-08-2006, 09:49 AM
I'm just asking a simple question here....... from your response, I think you are saying if the team is successfull, it is directly related to the play of the QB. But if the team goes 2-14..... everyone but the QB is to blame......

No, I am saying that I am tired of people having a grudge against the QB of this team. The endless ragging has become an obsession with you guys, and I would just like to see all our guys get a clen slate (even TJ). But the one guy who has been given extra attention has been the QB.

Thus, my quote of "...the success of the Texans is directly tied to the success of David Carr" means that we can't win games if Carr is failing. And from where I stand, looking at these posts, there's two groups of Carr doubters: (1) Those who hold a grudge but are slowly trying to give him a chance, but yet they still can't say positive things about him because they're angry at him or at last season's debale, or both, and then there is (B) Those who will never root or cheer David Carr--They are done with him, and the only thing that will satisfy them is to see that he is gone from our team.

You fall into group one, IMO. People like tsip, swt, and twinsisters fall into group 2. My biggest bone to pick is with people in group 2 because they are being so pigheaded in their anger that they fail to realize that we're going to have to realllllllly stink it up to get Carr off the team. And so I wonder: Isn't it easier to hope for Carr's success? Isn't the poorer belief system the one that says, "Man, I hope he bombs so we get another QB..."?

To me, that's just flat out sad.

The quote you are using is for Group 2. It's a statement about how they think and how they are approaching this topic.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
08-08-2006, 09:51 AM
yes, let's get this back on topic then.

Since Smith said that both Griese and Plummer know how to operate the system, then we should be shopping Dave to the Bears just like Broncos are.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2532028

A trade with the Bears gives them a reliable back-up for Grossman, and we get two things fixed by getting Griese and Thomas Jones.

A QB that knows how the system already works and some help in the RB department where Davis might not make it.

We can then let Griese take the reigns until Sage is ready or start grooming a new starter while the line is being overhauled.

it could work.

First, why would we (Bears) take Carr when we have Griese and paying Rex much already. The reason Griese came to the Bears is the track record of Rex, I believe he will end up the starter by mid season. and Why not come to the Bears that have a great offensive line to protect him as well as a Defense that is already proving domination in the NFL for consecutive years. We are not going to get rid of Jones either, Jones will have to play his heart out in order to get the money he wants. He wants Cedric Benson money. That is what irritates me about Drew Rosenhaus (spelling) as an agent, a guy has 1, 1 good year and thinks he should be paid top money. :crying:

Jones is NEVER going to get that type of money, heck , when we signed him we gave him more than any team was willing to part with; ungrateful!!!

jerek
08-08-2006, 10:06 AM
Interesting quote from Kubes today 8/7...think Carr can be and is on track to be a top 3-5 QB.

And Kubiak said this today....interesting in that he says Carr can be and is on track to be a top 3 - 5 QB.

ďIn this league, the coach and the quarterback have to have a great relationship,Ē Kubiak said. You know the pressure thatís on that guy taking the snaps and he has to know you are doing everything to make him better. Itís been good, I love it. Thatís why I do what I do. Iíve been around a lot of quarterbacks and itís a (heck) of a battle to get to the point where you are one of those top three or top-five quarterbacks in this league. Thatís a battle and a tremendous accomplishment when it does happen, but I see a guy that can do it and heís headed in that direction.Ē

Well, what the hell does he know? :francis: Twin Sisters says trade him, that's good enough for me.

We need a smiley face for blind prejudice.

chuckm
08-08-2006, 10:09 AM
We need a smiley face for blind prejudice.


how about :loser ?

swtbound07
08-08-2006, 11:55 AM
No, I am saying that I am tired of people having a grudge against the QB of this team. The endless ragging has become an obsession with you guys, and I would just like to see all our guys get a clen slate (even TJ). But the one guy who has been given extra attention has been the QB.

Thus, my quote of "...the success of the Texans is directly tied to the success of David Carr" means that we can't win games if Carr is failing. And from where I stand, looking at these posts, there's two groups of Carr doubters: (1) Those who hold a grudge but are slowly trying to give him a chance, but yet they still can't say positive things about him because they're angry at him or at last season's debale, or both, and then there is (B) Those who will never root or cheer David Carr--They are done with him, and the only thing that will satisfy them is to see that he is gone from our team.

You fall into group one, IMO. People like tsip, swt, and twinsisters fall into group 2. My biggest bone to pick is with people in group 2 because they are being so pigheaded in their anger that they fail to realize that we're going to have to realllllllly stink it up to get Carr off the team. And so I wonder: Isn't it easier to hope for Carr's success? Isn't the poorer belief system the one that says, "Man, I hope he bombs so we get another QB..."?

To me, that's just flat out sad.

The quote you are using is for Group 2. It's a statement about how they think and how they are approaching this topic.

Hi, I'll be your group 2 representative for the day. Let me tel you why you are wrong. I've said this at least a hundred times. IM NOT HOPING CARR FAILS. Big letters get your attention? I don't hope he bombs. I've said repeatedly that I hope Im wrong about him because all I want is to win. What i AM saying is that his past 4 seasons have stripped me of any chance of being optimistic about his chances of being an NFL Qb. Im not going to make pie in the sky predictions and skirt around the fact that we have a qb who I (and im certainly not alone) consider to be terrible. I want the Texans to win, not david carr to succeed........which is why i've been campaigning for Sage to start. I think he has the tools, and could make our offense click.

texan279
08-08-2006, 12:41 PM
Hi, I'll be your group 2 representative for the day. Let me tel you why you are wrong. I've said this at least a hundred times. IM NOT HOPING CARR FAILS. Big letters get your attention? I don't hope he bombs. I've said repeatedly that I hope Im wrong about him because all I want is to win. What i AM saying is that his past 4 seasons have stripped me of any chance of being optimistic about his chances of being an NFL Qb. Im not going to make pie in the sky predictions and skirt around the fact that we have a qb who I (and im certainly not alone) consider to be terrible. I want the Texans to win, not david carr to succeed........which is why i've been campaigning for Sage to start. I think he has the tools, and could make our offense click.

If the last 4 seasons have stripped you of any chance of being optimistic about Carr, then you should have no reason to be optimistic about any guys on the team, except for maybe 2 or 3 guys that have put up 1 or 2 good seasons, no one on this team has done anything special or above and beyond in the last 4 seasons. And what has Sage done to make you think he would perform better than Carr, or make our offense "click"? The guy has started 2 games in 5 seasons with a career completion percentage of 49.5 and a career QB rating of 68.4, if Sage was that good he would be starting somewhere in this league.

Honoring Earl 34
08-08-2006, 12:55 PM
What if Mario becomes one of the top 5 DEs in the league ? What if Carr becomes a QB worthy of a couple of Pro-Bowls ?

I think the odds of this happening today are 50/50 which is not bad . If Carr and Mario realize their potential then the Texans are a playoff contender and went the right direction .

goodnews boy
08-08-2006, 02:03 PM
I think the odds of this happening today are 50/50 which is not bad . If Carr and Mario realize their potential then the Texans are a playoff contender and went the right direction .

The thing about Carr is too much ground time. Can any of you Carr haters tell me which QB had the highest sack total and went to the Pro Bowl?:spy: What about having a 70 QB rating with a record number of sacks? :spy: All great QB have had an above average line blocking for them. We need to give him a chance with a decent line. To be a good QB, that is the key. I guarantee if he is traded to a good team, he will thrive. Then you WILL be sorry.:brickwall

swtbound07
08-08-2006, 02:16 PM
The thing about Carr is too much ground time. Can any of you Carr haters tell me which QB had the highest sack total and went to the Pro Bowl?:spy: What about having a 70 QB rating with a record number of sacks? :spy: All great QB have had an above average line blocking for them. We need to give him a chance with a decent line. To be a good QB, that is the key. I guarantee if he is traded to a good team, he will thrive. Then you WILL be sorry.:brickwall

Vick had the highest sack total in the NFL and went to the probowl. I won't be sorry if Carr is traded......

infantrycak
08-08-2006, 03:08 PM
Vick had the highest sack total in the NFL and went to the probowl. I won't be sorry if Carr is traded......

Which says more about probowl voting than anything else. Going in to Vick's 6th year folks are still waiting for him to become a QB.

thunderkyss
08-08-2006, 03:17 PM
Which says more about probowl voting than anything else. Going in to Vick's 6th year folks are still waiting for him to become a QB.

true, but they know the Falcons win more games with Vick in, than out.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-08-2006, 03:20 PM
The thing about Carr is too much ground time. Can any of you Carr haters tell me which QB had the highest sack total and went to the Pro Bowl?:spy: What about having a 70 QB rating with a record number of sacks? :spy: All great QB have had an above average line blocking for them. We need to give him a chance with a decent line. To be a good QB, that is the key. I guarantee if he is traded to a good team, he will thrive. Then you WILL be sorry.:brickwall
When you say "all great QB have an above average line blocking for them" the first thing that goes through my head is Doug Williams(think thats the guy) in wash. with the HOGS in front of him. Played in the Super Bowl also.Cant remember if it was one that thay won though.

TwinSisters
08-08-2006, 03:22 PM
First, why would we (Bears) take Carr when we have Griese and paying Rex much already. The reason Griese came to the Bears is the track record of Rex, I believe he will end up the starter by mid season. and Why not come to the Bears that have a great offensive line to protect him as well as a Defense that is already proving domination in the NFL for consecutive years. We are not going to get rid of Jones either, Jones will have to play his heart out in order to get the money he wants. He wants Cedric Benson money. That is what irritates me about Drew Rosenhaus (spelling) as an agent, a guy has 1, 1 good year and thinks he should be paid top money. :crying:

Jones is NEVER going to get that type of money, heck , when we signed him we gave him more than any team was willing to part with; ungrateful!!!

That's the reason the Bears would part with both Griese and Jones. They get rid of a headache and don't lose or gain anything with the QB swap. Carr would be ready to start by midseason in Chicago and we get a guy that is proven to work with Kubiak that can start winning NOW, not another four years from now.

I think the Bears are really in the market for a WR though. Something that we don't have to spare.

Carr's bonus acceleration would kill the deal anyway. I don't think we have any room to be able to deal him ( on top of the fact that McNair would never do it and we are carrying 666 in dead money from Wade already ).

goodnews boy
08-08-2006, 03:22 PM
Vick had the highest sack total in the NFL and went to the probowl. I won't be sorry if Carr is traded......
Which season was this?:confused: