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The Pencil Neck
07-29-2006, 12:28 AM
To me, this quote:

“Now that we have a system in place where I really understand not just my position, but everybody’s position, I’m going to make sure everyone’s in place and make sure we’re all running the same unit.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2680&section=N%20Latest%20News

That says a ton.

Ibar_Harry
07-29-2006, 12:31 AM
To me, this quote:

“Now that we have a system in place where I really understand not just my position, but everybody’s position, I’m going to make sure everyone’s in place and make sure we’re all running the same unit.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2680&section=N%20Latest%20News

That says a ton.

I saw that too and I would like a little more elaboration. I have a feeling we are once again leaning a little bit more about what was going on before and it ain't a pretty picture.

TexansBull
07-30-2006, 10:34 PM
Does this mean Carr doesnt need a year to get adjusted to the new play book, and he going to come out with full(or close) comprehension of what is supposed to happen? Time will tell I guess?

MorKnolle
07-30-2006, 10:53 PM
Does this mean Carr doesnt need a year to get adjusted to the new play book, and he going to come out with full(or close) comprehension of what is supposed to happen? Time will tell I guess?

I think he'll pick it up well (hopefully everyone else will too). He is said to be very smart and very willing to learn from Kubiak, and it seems as though his confidence is at an all-time high. He has really looked sharp at several points in the last three days (he has still had some off throws in there), and he and Andre have looked great together, they seem to really be re-developing that chemistry from two years ago, hopefully this system will develop into multiple Pro Bowl appearances for both of them.

Nighthawk
07-30-2006, 11:06 PM
I think he'll pick it up well (hopefully everyone else will too). He is said to be very smart and very willing to learn from Kubiak, and it seems as though his confidence is at an all-time high. He has really looked sharp at several points in the last three days (he has still had some off throws in there), and he and Andre have looked great together, they seem to really be re-developing that chemistry from two years ago, hopefully this system will develop into multiple Pro Bowl appearances for both of them.

You could read it that way--Carr's been misunderstood and misused, and now, at long last, he's got a coach who believes in him, and a team that believes in him, and he's going to make the most of it and show us all what he's made of.

On the other hand he may be just another preppy wuss who has as much business at QB in this league as you or me.

Time will tell indeed.

Hookem Horns
07-30-2006, 11:25 PM
To me, this quote:

“Now that we have a system in place where I really understand not just my position, but everybody’s position, I’m going to make sure everyone’s in place and make sure we’re all running the same unit.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2680&section=N%20Latest%20News

That says a ton.

I like that better than "this isn't a must win, but a must play well game". Hopefully Kubiak will rid Carr of that Caper's attitude of mediocrocy.

BigDTexansFan
07-30-2006, 11:50 PM
To me, this quote:

“Now that we have a system in place where I really understand not just my position, but everybody’s position, I’m going to make sure everyone’s in place and make sure we’re all running the same unit.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2680&section=N%20Latest%20News

That says a ton.


I think offensive system he has been under is, you do your job and they will do their jobs. To me kind of like playing chess with half the pieces. One thing I liked hearing was Kubiak said at end of mini-camps "I hope David doesn't lose a step but comes right back where we left off" then seeing this in an article today got me excited about offense ""I was excited about how David came back today," Kubiak said after Friday's practice. "I was concerned because you worry about how you come back the first day and how much you let go and all the work you did this summer.

"I thought David retained that well. His feet were good. His eyesight (vision) has to continue to get better, and I'm on him every day.

"He knew what was going on. There was no doubt what was happening. David picked up where he left off in the (offseason program)."

Double Barrel
07-31-2006, 11:24 AM
Wow, nice quote. It reveals so much about the previous staff and our current staff. Amazing what an ex-QB head coach and an actual position coach can do for a player. They understand what is going through Carr's head and comprehend what is required to develop his skills.

I think Carr will have his best year, yet, by far. :howdy:

real
07-31-2006, 11:27 AM
I don't think so much should be read into his comments.....what do you expect him to say...."yeah..uhh...we're gonna suck....again"

Texans_Chick
07-31-2006, 11:46 AM
I would read the quote in the context of what happened last year. The best information I've seen on this is in his radio interview from last month:

Link: Radio clip in FanBlog (http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/2006/07/david_carr_international_man_o.html)

Last year sounded like a cluster--trying to implement two systems at once--completely incoherant.

thunderkyss
07-31-2006, 11:54 AM
I think he'll pick it up well (hopefully everyone else will too). He is said to be very smart and very willing to learn from Kubiak, and it seems as though his confidence is at an all-time high. He has really looked sharp at several points in the last three days (he has still had some off throws in there), and he and Andre have looked great together, they seem to really be re-developing that chemistry from two years ago, hopefully this system will develop into multiple Pro Bowl appearances for both of them.

Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......

chuckm
07-31-2006, 11:59 AM
Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......


maybe eventually they would've simplified it all the way down to the spread offense ....

real
07-31-2006, 12:03 PM
Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......

Or maybe it was just too complicated and so off base that the system just didn't make sense...Kyss Im on the Carr watch just like yourself, but he has looked good from what I've seen and heard thus far...

thunderkyss
07-31-2006, 12:10 PM
Or maybe it was just too complicated and so off base that the system just didn't make sense...Kyss Im on the Carr watch just like yourself, but he has looked good from what I've seen and heard thus far...

that may very well be.... I'm not saying that it was Carr's fault that the system didn't make sense to him...... just saying it didn't make sense..... we've been pretty mickey-mouse for the last couple of years, and I have no idea why(really). But the 2003 season was much more exciting to watch.... looked to me, like everything was clicking and we were ready to take it to another level in 2004....... but we looked(to me) to be going backwards, and being more predictable.

Hardcore Texan
07-31-2006, 12:13 PM
IMO, Carr will have a breakout year as long as the protection is there, which for once I think it will be.

MightyTExan
07-31-2006, 12:17 PM
I actually saw him step up into the pocket on a training camp clip. :francis:

tsip
07-31-2006, 12:25 PM
David picked up where he left off in the (offseason program)."
__________________
Mini-camp ended a few weeks ago, maybe a month or so. How much can a person forget in that short of a time span? Knowing and working on a daily basis with Carr, why was Kubiak concerned about David's retention? Aren't there playbooks and film to look at if a person forgets something? And, once again, Kubiak mentions one of those 'little things' about Carr--need to keep improving his vision? This is a 'basic' requirement of the QB position and Carr is a 5th year pro and still has problems in this very important area?...and there have been other little 'public' mentions--why doesn't K keep these between Carr and himself?

FILO_girl
07-31-2006, 12:26 PM
“Now that we have a system in place where I really understand not just my position, but everybody’s position, I’m going to make sure everyone’s in place and make sure we’re all running the same unit.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/de...0Latest%20News

That says a ton."

/rant on (you are warned)

Not to me. The light is being shown now on the EPIC snowjob we had been handed in prior years. Like being crapped on too many times will do to a persons outlook, I hold a 'wait and see, SHOW me, don't lip service me' attitude at this time. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice....I won't be that sucker again. Like Bob most likely told Charley, "I have had enough of your BS."

I am a mother of 5 kids, and my 4 boys are the masters of lip service. I am beginning to wonder if they hadn't been mentoring the team on the side for beer money.

I can only HOPE that things were not as bad as they are seeming now, and that our lot in NFL life is going to become sooooo much better. This is where being a Homer comes in handy, the Battle Red glasses and koolaid make it so much easier to accept. I am as big a Texans fan as they come, but I am tired of defending something that needn't be defended. It sucked!

It's put up or shut up time. Sell me David, show me Phillip, can you do it Bennie? Is moving back to natural positions going to be a magic fix? Have we really addressed the O line enough to show improvement? If TJ ain't worth keeping, let him go. Who cares if he was the #1 pick last season (just remember what last season was!)...holding on to a bad product doesn't make it any better with time, just makes us look even dumber and more respect is lost. Do you get paid for being non productive on your job roster? Didn't think so. I like TJ, but the reports I am getting don't bode well for our team, so let him go where he is a bonus and not a minus. Cut our losses and move on. Lets get this dog and pony show on the road, lots to prove and a short time to do it.

I have guarded optimism on my team right now. It is the best I can do, I have led the cheer on the new regime, but will they make us turn the corner? Dunno. Regardless, I am a Texans fan and thank Bob every day that he brought them into my football life. But I have my limits on what I will accept as crapitola (thanks for the new word, TexansChick). Its hard to even tolerate the small spoonfuls of it, when it has been force fed to you in buckets for quite sometime. While I never really acquired a taste for it, now the ability to even stomach to smell is hard to accomplish.

I want to be the optimist that alot of posters are around here, but I am a REAList. A no-BS-tell it like it is...kind of girl. Someone has to be. Blind optimism in the Texans got me 2-14, so back to my original position it is. REAList. Its really a good thing, honestly. Someone has to be brutally honest, there are a few of us on here. You know who you are, keep on keeping it real!

To Kubes: Let the fans watch a practice from the same zipcode. One of the few things Capers did for us that was good was let us stand and watch our team WE PAY HARD EARNED CASH to, practice their ascent/descent in the NFL. Don't get a name like Bud, the fans are the heart of the organization and don't ever forget it. Throw us a bone, man! This isn't starting out on the right foot here and you have enough to overcome as it is. And I am tired of my hind end being nawed on over your decision.

*FILOgirl is cranky today from lack of sleep from a sick spouse. Please take this into consideration as she spouts her rant*

TEXANRED
07-31-2006, 12:32 PM
Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......
Its hard to learn a system that sends your RT blocking to the right and your TE that is lined up next to your RT blocking to the left.

Anyone else remember when Wand and Wade pan caked each other?

TransplantTexan1
07-31-2006, 12:39 PM
To me, it seemed clear at the end of last year that the offense was as watered-down and simplified as could be, and probably because so many people--linemen, receivers, etc--weren't on the same page, so there may be something to David's comment about being able to go in with a healthier, more complete knowledge of the system and gameplan and being able to help direct everyone on the field better.

We'll see, though. I agree with whoever said, "what is he going to say? We're going to suck again this year?"

Regardless, I do sense a great deal of relief and relaxation in his tone during interviews and in his general demeanor. We'll see how that translates on Sundays.

Double Barrel
07-31-2006, 12:47 PM
I don't think so much should be read into his comments.....what do you expect him to say...."yeah..uhh...we're gonna suck....again"

That's one way to look at it...but then again, he could have said nothing at all (or said something very generic).

At least this is the argument that I was given when I merely questioned Coach Kubiak's statement on Carr back in OTAs.

I see these statements as a bigger picture given the fact that Carr finally gets an offense that can center on his natural ability. He's got coaches that "get it" on offensive schemes (and hopefully on the importance of a solid o-line, too! All signs point to 'yes' right now.).

I can certainly understand the naysayers, though. We've suffered long enough, and it is something to make you hesitant to believe.

But c'mon, the koolaide is fresh and cold, and it's Battle Red fruit punch, too! ;) :redtowel:

Coach C.
07-31-2006, 12:53 PM
Double BArrel got to agree with you on this one. Carr is just finally in an offense that he feels takes advantage of what he does well, and minimizes what he does not. I dont think it is anything more than that.

real
07-31-2006, 12:58 PM
Double BArrel got to agree with you on this one. Carr is just finally in an offense that he feels takes advantage of what he does well, and minimizes what he does not. I dont think it is anything more than that.

I agree with you all...I definitely believe that Carr believes this new regime is better...I however question whether these beliefs translate into wins....everything is all good until he takes that first sack, or that first thing goes wrong...I think Carr being successful has everything to do with his mentality...

Marshall'sLaw
07-31-2006, 12:59 PM
I don't think so much should be read into his comments.....what do you expect him to say...."yeah..uhh...we're gonna suck....again"


Now that was funny. I do believe he will have his best year ever. Hard to have a good year when you best reciever is gaffney. So glad to see him go. THat guy would have a hard time catching a cold. Good luck Mcnabb.:shoot:

santo
07-31-2006, 01:05 PM
Hard to have a good year when you best reciever is gaffney. So glad to see him go. THat guy would have a hard time catching a cold. Good luck Mcnabb.:shoot:



:rofl: ...that was funny....LOL!

TwinSisters
07-31-2006, 01:15 PM
It's put up or shut up time.

Yep. The same stuff was said last year before camp too. Then after camp he says it was mixed systems.

Which is true, it was... because nothing was working.

Hulk75
07-31-2006, 01:48 PM
You could read it that way--Carr's been misunderstood and misused, and now, at long last, he's got a coach who believes in him, and a team that believes in him, and he's going to make the most of it and show us all what he's made of.

On the other hand he may be just another preppy wuss who has as much business at QB in this league as you or me.

Time will tell indeed.
Next time you meet the guy you should tell him the preppy wuss tittle, I just hope his Dad and brothers are not around.

U4ikrob
07-31-2006, 02:38 PM
I agree with you all...I definitely believe that Carr believes this new regime is better...I however question whether these beliefs translate into wins....everything is all good until he takes that first sack, or that first thing goes wrong...I think Carr being successful has everything to do with his mentality...

Well if you look at another Houston player [Brad Lidge] Mentality is everything. IMO think Carr is finally [with Kubes] in a system that lets him play to his advantages talents and doesnt try to force him into system just because some OC got the job and is tryign to prove a point about what he knows rather than teaching a rookie QB like Palmer should have been doing from day 1. It should be obvious to most that our Offense lacked real coaching the last few years as the HC and the OC battled wits on which one was calling the plays more than once to the point the blocking scheme and players changed positions almost as frequently as a halftime show. IMO it finally it spilled out on the field last year as the hodge-podge throw it together system it was. There was no continuity to the whole system either Palmer, Capers or Pendry tried to run. IMO a proven bsuiness fact is Its hard to produce good results when you dont have a clear idea of where your going. And if your leading the team and your confused [IE: David Carr] - think about what do the rest of the players know and whos keeping them on the same page?

Like I said during TC last year, players looked lost ,lethargic and like they were largely going thru the motions and it spelled bad things for the season because it looked like they were giving up on the staff. Then the Coaching staff choose to get rid of almost all the veteran players on the squad and replaced them with unproven, experiment players and rookies. We all know the results of those choices[2-14].

Bottom line - David has to produce this year - and everyone including Kubes and DC know the pressure is on to have some good results. I'm no homer for Carr, but I do think you will see a seriously different QB this year. A QB thats much closer to the #1 prospect he was coming out from Fresno who "threw" 46 TD passes and set NCAA records. Just giving him the ability to throw the ball and keep us in games will I think make a huge difference in our offensive production and help keep the defenses alot more honest. It still kills me to this day that Capers choose him as the QB for this offense knowing what kind arm and throwing QB DC was and knowing he was going to run a ball control program and forced him into the mold. Reminds me of what he did with Kerry Collins and the Panthers a whole lot.

real
08-01-2006, 03:39 PM
You are right rob...Carr was poorly coached in the past....but the past is the past....Carr has to step up this year and prove not only to the city of houston, but to himself that he is capable of playing NFL football on a winning level...Carr has all the tools around him...good coach, good system, good supporting cast...but none of that means anything if he is not mentally capable of dealing with highly stressful situations...Last year Carr was bad...I won't put ALL the blame on him, but hell...he was the one out there on sundays...not Capers, not pendry, and certainly none of us fans...Last year I saw several bad, overthrown balls....was that the system? no...was it because he isn't talented enough to make NFL quality throws??? No...Carr is talented, but IMO, he is only as talented as his mind allows him to be...at times last year Carr looked flustered, and lost and other times he looked really comfortable...And those times that he looked flustered, it showed...he played just how he looked...IMO, Carrs key to success this season will be how comfortable he is....Keep Carr upright, and comfy....and keep the wins rolling in....

Titan "Tack" Fan
08-01-2006, 03:41 PM
I want to start a "Do you believe in Carr" poll but I don't want to get flamed for it. I want to see what percentage of you believe Carr can lead the Texans to the playoffs.

hollywood_texan
08-01-2006, 03:58 PM
This is an interesting quote. I would like to know when did Carr realize the offense wasn't working properly and who did he discuss this within the coaching staff? I remember an article that Carr went to Capers after year 3 and said he was taking too many sacks and they needed to stop it. My first thought was, it took Carr 3 years to finally have that meeting with Capers to discuss the importance of reducing sacks.

What I am getting at is that it looks like Carr was not proactive in the first 4 years of his career in discussions with the coaching staff. You would think with his big contract, he would have called out some off these things a lot sooner. It really seems like he was on auto pilot, which is why the team seemed to be lacking real leadership from the beginning.

This season isn't really about wins, but about answering some questions.

We shall see on Carr.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-01-2006, 04:11 PM
I want to start a "Do you believe in Carr" poll but I don't want to get flamed for it. I want to see what percentage of you believe Carr can lead the Texans to the playoffs.
THIS POLL HAS BEEN DONE. Been there / done that. And you know your going to get flamed. LOL

Insideop
08-01-2006, 04:41 PM
You are right rob...Carr was poorly coached in the past....but the past is the past....Carr has to step up this year and prove not only to the city of houston, but to himself that he is capable of playing NFL football on a winning level...Carr has all the tools around him...good coach, good system, good supporting cast...but none of that means anything if he is not mentally capable of dealing with highly stressful situations...Last year Carr was bad...I won't put ALL the blame on him, but hell...he was the one out there on sundays...not Capers, not pendry, and certainly none of us fans...Last year I saw several bad, overthrown balls....was that the system? no...was it because he isn't talented enough to make NFL quality throws??? No...Carr is talented, but IMO, he is only as talented as his mind allows him to be...at times last year Carr looked flustered, and lost and other times he looked really comfortable...And those times that he looked flustered, it showed...he played just how he looked...IMO, Carrs key to success this season will be how comfortable he is....Keep Carr upright, and comfy....and keep the wins rolling in....

xtru, it's true, keeping Carr comfortable in the system should lead to more wins, but this is true of every QB. Sure, some may handle pressure better than others when everything is falling apart (O-line) around them, but even the best QB's can get flustered and make mistakes. Example: P. Manning. He looked good and comfortable for most of the year last year, which translated into alot of wins, but when they ran into the Steelers during the NFC Championship game Manning was thrown out of his comfort zone, and I have to say he looked pretty flustered.

So, I believe Carr's mental state will improve as he becomes more comfortable with the system and the O-line protection. We will just have to see how he reacts if/when a defense disrupts his comfort zone. Personally, I hope his past experiences have made him stronger, and now with the proper teaching and system in place he will be able to make better decisions when he is forced out of his comfort zone. Just my :twocents:

infantrycak
08-01-2006, 05:59 PM
I would like to know when did Carr realize the offense wasn't working properly and who did he discuss this within the coaching staff?

What I am getting at is that it looks like Carr was not proactive in the first 4 years of his career in discussions with the coaching staff.

JMO but you hit it right with the question and then went on in a vacuum to an unsubstantiated conclusion. Basically we have no idea what if anything Carr said to Palmer, Pendry, Capers or McNair other than the one report you mentioned. We know Carr also called the plays in the 1st half of two games last year but we don't really know how it happened. Other than advocating a QB take his case to the public I don't see how we can judge whether Carr did too much or too little in a void of information.

tulexan
08-01-2006, 06:15 PM
Well if you look at another Houston player [Brad Lidge] Mentality is everything.

It's hard to compare baseball players with football players because you don't see many football players just losing it like you do with baseball players. I haven't seen many players at the top of the league one day be able to hit a player in stride 40 yards away and then the next not able to complete a pass (unless injury is involved). But in baseball you see it happen all the time. Think about all of the players throughout baseball history who just lost it one day. i.e. Chuck Knobloch, Brad Lidge, etc. You see it in golf, but not football or basketball.

hollywood_texan
08-01-2006, 06:17 PM
This is an interesting quote. I would like to know when did Carr realize the offense wasn't working properly and who did he discuss this within the coaching staff? I remember an article that Carr went to Capers after year 3 and said he was taking too many sacks and they needed to stop it. My first thought was, it took Carr 3 years to finally have that meeting with Capers to discuss the importance of reducing sacks.

What I am getting at is that it looks like Carr was not proactive in the first 4 years of his career in discussions with the coaching staff. You would think with his big contract, he would have called out some off these things a lot sooner. It really seems like he was on auto pilot, which is why the team seemed to be lacking real leadership from the beginning.

This season isn't really about wins, but about answering some questions.

We shall see on Carr.




JMO but you hit it right with the question and then went on in a vacuum to an unsubstantiated conclusion. Basically we have no idea what if anything Carr said to Palmer, Pendry, Capers or McNair other than the one report you mentioned. We know Carr also called the plays in the 1st half of two games last year but we don't really know how it happened. Other than advocating a QB take his case to the public I don't see how we can judge whether Carr did too much or too little in a void of information.

If you read my post carefully, I did not come to any conclusion. You are right, I don't know what was discussed between Carr and the previous coaching staff.

I was merely trying to connect some dots and develop a theory. Nothing more. The bold and underlined parts seem far from conclusion.

infantrycak
08-01-2006, 07:08 PM
If you read my post carefully, I did not come to any conclusion. You are right, I don't know what was discussed between Carr and the previous coaching staff.

I was merely trying to connect some dots and develop a theory. Nothing more. The bold and underlined parts seem far from conclusion.

Cool--evidently I misinterpreted what you were saying.

WWX
08-01-2006, 07:56 PM
IMO Carr’s confidence is growing and will continue to do so. Kubiak demands a lot but also brings a MUCH better offensive system. With the quicker passing game, bootlegs, rollouts, and greatly improved play calling, Carr’s talent should come out. As a new guy to this forum my opinion carries little weight, but I foresee good things with the changes taking place, and I see them having an immediate, enduring, impact.

:logo:

Double Barrel
08-01-2006, 08:16 PM
IMO Carr’s confidence is growing and will continue to do so. Kubiak demands a lot but also brings a MUCH better offensive system. With the quicker passing game, bootlegs, rollouts, and greatly improved play calling, Carr’s talent should come out. As a new guy to this forum my opinion carries little weight, but I foresee good things with the changes taking place, and I see them having an immediate, enduring, impact.

:logo:

There is no seniority on the boards. Your opinion is just as valid as someone that's been here two years. Everyone has something of value to add. Hope you stick around! :)

hollywood_texan
08-01-2006, 09:48 PM
IMO Carr’s confidence is growing and will continue to do so. Kubiak demands a lot but also brings a MUCH better offensive system. With the quicker passing game, bootlegs, rollouts, and greatly improved play calling, Carr’s talent should come out. As a new guy to this forum my opinion carries little weight, but I foresee good things with the changes taking place, and I see them having an immediate, enduring, impact.

:logo:

I am very hard on Carr, but in my opinion, you hit it right out of the park with those sentences above.

ojthecat
08-01-2006, 10:14 PM
I actually saw him step up into the pocket on a training camp clip. :francis:


I find this very hard to believe. I know for a fact that during training camp after three seconds a horn goes off and if Carr has not thrown the ball the play is dead. :sarcasm:

TexansBull
08-02-2006, 12:03 AM
I find this very hard to believe. I know for a fact that during training camp after three seconds a horn goes off and if Carr has not thrown the ball the play is dead. :sarcasm:


Sort of like that whole Pavlov thing...

Great thread guys. Everyone is hitting it square on the head on the Carr topic:what he did wrong, and what attributed to his problems.
Thanks for not making it some great debate where someone gets all upset. Or is that coming?

TK_Gamer
08-02-2006, 02:17 AM
I'm really kinda tired of Carr threads but I just thought I would throw somethin out there and leave it at that. I'm glad I'm not david carr. how many rookie QB's start in the NFL? I mean every snap. then you get to telll yer rookie. "well we had this great offensive LT, the best in the league to help protect you, but hes not gonna be able to play, and we waited too long to sign any competent replacements, so yer gonna have to do the best you can. and he stepped up to the task and learned and showed promise. ok its a new year david, we still havent seen fit to find you a competent offensive line but we got you this new running back and we'll just give him the ball and try to run the clock more, you will be fine. and david steps up again and improves ( the sacks were'nt really that bad, they only hurt for a few minutes). ok its next year, sorry david we are gonna have to change up the system some cuz we cant seem to put our humpty dumpty system back together oh, and we knew those veteran guys on defense were just trying to discourage you so we got rid of em, just try not to think too much and give the ball to davis, if he wears out we will get you another one next year. ok half the season passes, ok this isnt working david , try this and wear thicker pads. and david thinks "hmm I wonder when they are gonna start teaching me the neat pro stuff I allways heard about, this stuff makes no sense, but I guess they know what they're doing, they have to right?"

HOU-TEX
08-02-2006, 09:10 AM
I'm really kinda tired of Carr threads but I just thought I would throw somethin out there and leave it at that. I'm glad I'm not david carr. how many rookie QB's start in the NFL? I mean every snap. then you get to telll yer rookie. "well we had this great offensive LT, the best in the league to help protect you, but hes not gonna be able to play, and we waited too long to sign any competent replacements, so yer gonna have to do the best you can. and he stepped up to the task and learned and showed promise. ok its a new year david, we still havent seen fit to find you a competent offensive line but we got you this new running back and we'll just give him the ball and try to run the clock more, you will be fine. and david steps up again and improves ( the sacks were'nt really that bad, they only hurt for a few minutes). ok its next year, sorry david we are gonna have to change up the system some cuz we cant seem to put our humpty dumpty system back together oh, and we knew those veteran guys on defense were just trying to discourage you so we got rid of em, just try not to think too much and give the ball to davis, if he wears out we will get you another one next year. ok half the season passes, ok this isnt working david , try this and wear thicker pads. and david thinks "hmm I wonder when they are gonna start teaching me the neat pro stuff I allways heard about, this stuff makes no sense, but I guess they know what they're doing, they have to right?"

Very nice!lol:

Frills
08-02-2006, 09:26 AM
The main thing here is there is actually an offensive system here.

The last offensive system was basically a "don't turn the ball over and let the passive non-attacking defense win the game"

It really says something when you lead the league in sacks allowed, and then fuggin promote the O-line coach to coord.

real
08-02-2006, 10:49 AM
It's hard to compare baseball players with football players because you don't see many football players just losing it like you do with baseball players. I haven't seen many players at the top of the league one day be able to hit a player in stride 40 yards away and then the next not able to complete a pass (unless injury is involved). But in baseball you see it happen all the time. Think about all of the players throughout baseball history who just lost it one day. i.e. Chuck Knobloch, Brad Lidge, etc. You see it in golf, but not football or basketball.

Carr has really never had "it" to lose...and you are right that baseball and football are different...every sport is different from the next as far as how it's played...but as far as players having a mental blockage of some sort, IMO, that is what it is across the board...Shooting jumpshots, Pitching a slider, and yes even throwing 40 yard pass, all have the same things in common...All deserve a certain degree of technique, all require some sort of mental focus.....Now having said that, in a game time situation a QB,Pitcher, or a shooting gaurd can feel nerves when rattled or in a clutch situation...I understand what you say about players being able to perform one day and not the next...But D.Carr has never, on this level, been an all world type of athlete...

mikoto
08-02-2006, 11:46 AM
Carr has really never had "it" to lose...and you are right that baseball and football is different...every sport is different from the next as far as how it's played...but as far as players having a mental blockage of some sort, IMO, that is what it is across the board...Shooting jumpshots, Pitching a slider, and yes even throwing 40 yard pass, all have the same things in common...All deserve a certain degree of technique, all require some sort of mental focus.....Now having said that, in a game time situation a QB,Pitcher, or a shooting gaurd can feel nerves when rattled or in a clutch situation...I understand what you say about players being able to perform one day and not the next...But D.Carr has never, on this level, been an all world type of athlete...


True, he hasn't. Wow, what I would give for an "all-world" type of athlete like Trent Dilfer. Look, the quality "it" is used to describe a set of mental and physical conditions that are either misunderstood, not understood at all, or "it" is used because someone is too lazy to write the dissertation that would be needed to describe this state of being. Same can be said of the phrases, "can't teach speed", and "football speed". All of the above can be quantified, or elaborated upon as the case may be, but most don't see the need to do so because production eliminates the need for such questions as does lack of production.

It is a shame because we see such strong correlation bordering on the causal between "all world" performance and surrounding talent/coaching/age. See: McNabb, Culpepper, Brett Favre and even Kerry Collins just off the top of my head. Collins had a Head coach we obviously don't like but a dominant offensive line and running game, wasn't asked to do a whole lot, and he was good, on average teams he is awful. So, is he good or not? Like most professional athletes he can be good enough to hold up his end given the right team around him, and provided that he is asked to do what he does well, and not what he doesn't do well.

There have been only two QB's in my football viewing lifetime that were great even as their team wasn't. Elway (and only after a few years) and Marino. Both always had teams that had at least something, some one thing, that they could hang their hat on as not being awful besides the QB position, and Marino never wen't to the promised land, while Elway never got there until he had a Great running game to back him up. By promised land, I mean getting the damn Trophy. There have been other QB's that were/are great with a capital "g", but not on bad teams (Staubach, Stabler , Montana, Kelly [sometimes], Aikman, Steve Young, Brady, Manning, etc...).

What, exactly, do you wan't/expect out of Carr?

I am not apologizing for his performance but I am stating emphatically that the kid hasn't been given a chance.

Sucky o'line + sucky recievers (yes, incl. Andre because he can't be an entire recieving corps.) + sucky o-line + average rushing game + no TE at all + horrible, over-simple, ever-changing scheme = poor QB play.

Football is a team game, period. If you expect him to be the next unstoppable force of nature, I suggest you lower your expectations a little into the realm of reality. We [I]hope to get great players that can lift a team onto their shoulders and will them to win but they are so very rare, but we need/must get players that can hold up their end commensurate with the talent surrounding them. Carr has, actually, done that. More than that really given the ridiculous level of talent on "O" surrounding him and his coaching. Would you trade Bradford for Carr, how about gaffney, how about Victor Riley or Todd Wade or Steve "no pocket" McKinney? If so, then I am out of this discussion as there is no point in furthering it.

I don't know if it was wise to give him an extension with all of that money, but neither do you. At this time I take the position that I must bow to the greater knowledge of professional talent scouts.

He hasn't been given a chance. Until he has, we won't know. I suspect we will have a better idea of what he is after this season and a very conclusive answer after next.

Look, the league wanted us to suck for a while. We weren't given the sweetheart deals that Jacksonville and carolina were given. We weren't given the same cap exemptions and plethera of draft picks that those teams were given, add to that that the 2002 draft was one of the most talent poor drafts in recent memory... We were designed by the NFL owners and league management to stink it up during our formative years, yet people seem to expect stellar QB play during this time anyway? I just don't get it.

real
08-02-2006, 12:00 PM
True, he hasn't. Wow, what I would give for an "all-world" type of athlete like Trent Dilfer. Look, the quality "it" is used to describe a set of mental and physical conditions that are either misunderstood, not understood at all, or "it" is used because someone is too lazy to write the dissertation that would be needed to describe this state of being.



It is a shame because we see such strong correlation bordering on the causal between "all world" performance and surrounding talent/coaching/age. See: McNabb, Culpepper, Brett Favre and even Kerry Collins just off the top of my head. Collins had a Head coach we obviously don't like but a dominant offensive line and running game, wasn't asked to do a whole lot, and he was good, on average teams he is awful. So, is he good or not? Like most professional athletes he can be good enough to hold up his end given the right team around him, and provided that he is asked to do what he does well, and not what he doesn't do well.

There have been only two QB's in my football viewing lifetime that were great even as their team wasn't. Elway (and only after a few years) and Marino. Both always had teams that had at least something, some one thing, that they could hang their hat on as not being awful besides the QB position, and Marino never wen't to the promised land, while Elway never got there until he had a Great running game to back him up. By promised land, I mean getting the damn Trophy. There have been other QB's that were/are great with a capital "g", but not on bad teams (Staubach, Stabler , Montana, Kelly [sometimes], Aikman, Steve Young, Brady, Manning, etc...).

What, exactly, do you wan't/expect out of Carr?

I am not apologizing for his performance but I am stating emphatically that the kid hasn't been given a chance.

Sucky o'line + sucky recievers (yes, incl. Andre because he can't be an entire recieving corps.) + sucky o-line + average rushing game + no TE at all + horrible, over-simple, ever-changing scheme = poor QB play.

Football is a team game, period. If you expect him to be the next unstoppable force of nature, I suggest you lower your expectations a little into the realm of reality. We [I]hope to get great players that can lift a team onto their shoulders and will them to win but they are so very rare, but we need/must get players that can hold up their end commensurate with the talent surrounding them. Carr has, actually, done that. More than that really given the ridiculous level of talent on "O" surrounding him and his coaching. Would you trade Bradford for Carr, how about gaffney, how about Victor Riley or Todd Wade or Steve "no pocket" McKinney? If so, then I am out of this discussion as there is no point in furthering it.

I don't know if it was wise to give him an extension with all of that money, but neither do you. At this time I take the position that I must bow to the greater knowledge of professional talent scouts.

He hasn't been given a chance. Until he has, we won't know. I suspect we will have a better idea of what he is after this season and a very conclusive answer after next.

Look, the league wanted us to suck for a while. We weren't given the sweetheart deals that Jacksonville and carolina were given. We weren't given the same cap exemptions and plethera of draft picks that those teams were given, add to that that the 2002 draft was one of the most talent poor drafts in recent memory... We were designed by the NFL owners and league management to stink it up during our formative years, yet people seem to expect stellar QB play during this time anyway? I just don't get it.

Exscuse me for asking, but....what in the hell are you talking about ??? Do you normally just jump in on conversations and make ridiculous assumptions or is this a first time thing ??? I just read your first paragraph and decided the rest wasn't worthy of reading...I don't know what you "thought" was going on, or what you "thought" was being discussed but I have to give you a smooth.....:offtopic.....But if you want to argue about Carr, and his lack of production then we can do...

U4ikrob
08-02-2006, 12:11 PM
It's hard to compare baseball players with football players because you don't see many football players just losing it like you do with baseball players. I haven't seen many players at the top of the league one day be able to hit a player in stride 40 yards away and then the next not able to complete a pass (unless injury is involved). But in baseball you see it happen all the time. Think about all of the players throughout baseball history who just lost it one day. i.e. Chuck Knobloch, Brad Lidge, etc. You see it in golf, but not football or basketball.

Its hard to compare - but I wasnt comparing sports per se, but more how the players approach the task and mentality level similarly and when things go bad how that confidence gets shaken and their perfromances suffer. I find those thigns pretty similar.

With regards to Carr and my comparison it was more for showing how some have questioned Carr's ability to sit in a pocket and play his position. He's got "Happy feet". IMO was trying to address how hard that task truly is when you dont have anything to feel comfortable about. The team around you isnt performing well and yet the coaching staff and fans are expecting you to have a pro-bowl performance under the worst of conditions and dont accept anything less as adequate. It's enormous amount of pressure for anyone to be under and have to perform.

The mentality of the QB position cant be overlooked and thus developing critical "Confidence" in what your doing, the players around you and the system your working with all have parts to play in that and have to work in conjunction to be effective. Mistakes happen, performance suffers and everyones performance reflects it - thats a natural part of it - but its the good players who keep getting up and keep trying. I think 'Carr' is one of those kind of players and now with Kubes & Co. will finally havea "Real chance" and showing some of that ability in a real offense wit ha staff who actually pay attention to details.

Looking at the last 4 years offensive systems, I fault the results to the coaching staffs the most and how they approached coaching this team. Their ability to coach was very questionable and their decision making was horrid to the point players quit, staff was fired and the team imploded for 2-14 this last year after most players got tired of the mickey mouse operation. That's not all David's fault for the "TEAM" not performing. It's how the staff choose to coach and implemented a system that relied on little information and teaching and more read/react playing which doesnt work well with rookie players in general. All new players, on an all new team need structure, veteran players to watch and coaches to teach them better. Overall the staff's approach to coaching and teaching the players was a total cluster******* of miscommunication, misdirection, very little to no teaching and mentoring of positions and certainly took a very much "Hands-off" approach to coaching alot of the team including its rookie QB. It was the staffs job to give DC the tools, mentoring, players and system to work with to become an NFL ready QB. Davids job is playing QB - its real hard to do that without those other things which is the job of the staff in the first place to provide him with which they choose to ignore for 4 years to the point they were all let go.

Any succesful business will tell you - without good infastructure its hard to succeed, because you need focus and attention to detail to succeed in the long run.

As ive said above and all along the Capers staff did a piss poor job of actually coaching/teaching the players their positions. From all ive read and seen of the teams last 4 years camps, pre-seasons and games it was obvious at many times how many players truly were lost on the field and just going thru the motions because they didnt see the coaching decisions working like the staff said they would in a game and began to question the methods. The staff refused to change or adapt to the personel they had on the team to their own eventual demise.

Just curious - How many Job offers have you seen come out for Pendry or Vic Fangio this year???? :stirpot:

Really says alot about your system the last 4 years when both of your teams coords cant even get an interview.

You know its pretty bad when both your teams coordinators are let go and nobody wants to hire them. IMO That speaks volumes about their coaching abilities. I'm all for players being accountable and working hard, and trying every play. Honestly if DC were less of a "Good guy" he would have went the route of many players and demanded a trade after year 3's mickey mouse stuff and ignoring the O-line protection to the detriment of his health. Honestly I thought after last year Carr and the NFLPA would have filed a grievance against Capers and his staff for intentionally trying to get him hurt by not improving the protection around him even after the Owner himself demanded soemthing be done.

I like "Gamers" post and "Frills" quote about "Leading the league in sacks and then promoting your O-line coach to OC" - Too true!!

CloakNNNdagger
08-02-2006, 12:20 PM
I'm really kinda tired of Carr threads but I just thought I would throw somethin out there and leave it at that. I'm glad I'm not david carr. how many rookie QB's start in the NFL? I mean every snap. then you get to telll yer rookie. "well we had this great offensive LT, the best in the league to help protect you, but hes not gonna be able to play, and we waited too long to sign any competent replacements, so yer gonna have to do the best you can. and he stepped up to the task and learned and showed promise. ok its a new year david, we still havent seen fit to find you a competent offensive line but we got you this new running back and we'll just give him the ball and try to run the clock more, you will be fine. and david steps up again and improves ( the sacks were'nt really that bad, they only hurt for a few minutes). ok its next year, sorry david we are gonna have to change up the system some cuz we cant seem to put our humpty dumpty system back together oh, and we knew those veteran guys on defense were just trying to discourage you so we got rid of em, just try not to think too much and give the ball to davis, if he wears out we will get you another one next year. ok half the season passes, ok this isnt working david , try this and wear thicker pads. and david thinks "hmm I wonder when they are gonna start teaching me the neat pro stuff I allways heard about, this stuff makes no sense, but I guess they know what they're doing, they have to right?"

Here's the playbook that Capers handed him the first day of rookie camp........even updated the revisions in annual new editions of the book.


http://www.carypopwarner.org/images/store/0764539361.jpg

...................................tackling dummies of course.

Meloy
08-02-2006, 12:52 PM
I'm really kinda tired of Carr threads but I just thought I would throw somethin out there and leave it at that. I'm glad I'm not david carr. how many rookie QB's start in the NFL? I mean every snap. then you get to telll yer rookie. "well we had this great offensive LT, the best in the league to help protect you, but hes not gonna be able to play, and we waited too long to sign any competent replacements, so yer gonna have to do the best you can. and he stepped up to the task and learned and showed promise. ok its a new year david, we still havent seen fit to find you a competent offensive line but we got you this new running back and we'll just give him the ball and try to run the clock more, you will be fine. and david steps up again and improves ( the sacks were'nt really that bad, they only hurt for a few minutes). ok its next year, sorry david we are gonna have to change up the system some cuz we cant seem to put our humpty dumpty system back together oh, and we knew those veteran guys on defense were just trying to discourage you so we got rid of em, just try not to think too much and give the ball to davis, if he wears out we will get you another one next year. ok half the season passes, ok this isnt working david , try this and wear thicker pads. and david thinks "hmm I wonder when they are gonna start teaching me the neat pro stuff I allways heard about, this stuff makes no sense, but I guess they know what they're doing, they have to right?"Outstanding!

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 01:10 PM
I'm really kinda tired of Carr threads but I just thought I would throw somethin out there and leave it at that. I'm glad I'm not david carr. how many rookie QB's start in the NFL? I mean every snap. then you get to telll yer rookie. "well we had this great offensive LT, the best in the league to help protect you, but hes not gonna be able to play, and we waited too long to sign any competent replacements, so yer gonna have to do the best you can. and he stepped up to the task and learned and showed promise. ok its a new year david, we still havent seen fit to find you a competent offensive line but we got you this new running back and we'll just give him the ball and try to run the clock more, you will be fine. and david steps up again and improves ( the sacks were'nt really that bad, they only hurt for a few minutes). ok its next year, sorry david we are gonna have to change up the system some cuz we cant seem to put our humpty dumpty system back together oh, and we knew those veteran guys on defense were just trying to discourage you so we got rid of em, just try not to think too much and give the ball to davis, if he wears out we will get you another one next year. ok half the season passes, ok this isnt working david , try this and wear thicker pads. and david thinks "hmm I wonder when they are gonna start teaching me the neat pro stuff I allways heard about, this stuff makes no sense, but I guess they know what they're doing, they have to right?"

Well........

we haven't done anything this year, that we haven't done in past years, as far as putting people on the Offensive line. If our starters are going to be Wand, Pitts, Flanagan, McKinney, Wiegart, there is only one guy not picked by Capers..... & drafting Spencer & Winston in the third, is basically the same place we've always drafted Linemen...... save Pearce & Hogdon.

So....... with your thinking, David Carr shouldn't feel anybetter about this offensive line, than he has in the past.

TexansLucky13
08-02-2006, 01:10 PM
Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......

What a silly statement. Capers had no idea how to use a QB. Thunderkyss... it's not too late to admit that Capers had no idea what he was doing with the offense.

mikoto
08-02-2006, 01:20 PM
Exscuse me for asking, but....what in the hell are you talking about ??? Do you normally just jump in on conversations and make ridiculous assumptions or is this a first time thing ??? I just read your first paragraph and decided the rest wasn't worthy of reading...I don't know what you "thought" was going on, or what you "thought" was being discussed but I have to give you a smooth.....:offtopic.....But if you want to argue about Carr, and his lack of production then we can do...


I addressed your post. The reason for the quote at the beginning. No need to get nasty, not that I care. I certainly don't value your opinion enough to get nasty, that would imply that I respect you enough to care. You are just some anonymous words on my screen.

It is easy to deny the value of something that clearly contradicts your point of view. It is the, [insert tact] easy, way out.

The topic of the thread is "Carr Leadership Quote". The thread then evolved/devolved into various discussions about his general merit/lack of.

However, since I did not address his "Leadership Quote" directly I will take your "off topic" criticism fwiw. I do not, however, feel that I am alone in this. i.e. insert mirror, or black kettle.

kbourda
08-02-2006, 01:28 PM
What a silly statement. Capers had no idea how to use a QB. Thunderkyss... it's not too late to admit that Capers had no idea what he was doing with the offense.

This is my first post in a while so i'll try to keep it brief. From what I gather on this board, the meaning of a coachable Qb is for that player to conform to what the offensive scheme is not the other way around. So what Thunder said isn't as silly as you may think. As much as I see other QB's (not naming any names) get flamed for not meshing with an offensive scheme now, a coach isn't credible because he has a QB whom can't conform to what the coach wants. Can't have it both ways. I've said it a thousand times base an offense around a QB's strenghts and a productive offense will occur.

HOU-TEX
08-02-2006, 01:54 PM
This is my first post in a while so i'll try to keep it brief. From what I gather on this board, the meaning of a coachable Qb is for that player to conform to what the offensive scheme is not the other way around. So what Thunder said isn't as silly as you may think. As much as I see other QB's (not naming any names) get flamed for not meshing with an offensive scheme now, a coach isn't credible because he has a QB whom can't conform to what the coach wants. Can't have it both ways. I've said it a thousand times base an offense around a QB's strenghts and a productive offense will occur.

I guess Carr not "conforming" to what Capers wanted caused all the sacks, dropped balls, missed tackles and just over all poor performance by all? Come on, ya'll are reaching!:francis:

KKHouston
08-02-2006, 02:05 PM
This is my first post in a while so i'll try to keep it brief. From what I gather on this board, the meaning of a coachable Qb is for that player to conform to what the offensive scheme is not the other way around. So what Thunder said isn't as silly as you may think. As much as I see other QB's (not naming any names) get flamed for not meshing with an offensive scheme now, a coach isn't credible because he has a QB whom can't conform to what the coach wants. Can't have it both ways. I've said it a thousand times base an offense around a QB's strenghts and a productive offense will occur.

Well said, for a first post in awhile... Simply look at other teams around the NFL, with successful programs. It works. When Elway retired, the Broncos had the same remaining team. The New factor was Brian Griese. His strengths were different. Peyton *is* successful, because they built around him, as did the Cowboys, with Troy Aikman. Lump the Packers and Brett Favre in with this.

CloakNNNdagger
08-02-2006, 02:13 PM
This is my first post in a while so i'll try to keep it brief. From what I gather on this board, the meaning of a coachable Qb is for that player to conform to what the offensive scheme is not the other way around. So what Thunder said isn't as silly as you may think. As much as I see other QB's (not naming any names) get flamed for not meshing with an offensive scheme now, a coach isn't credible because he has a QB whom can't conform to what the coach wants. Can't have it both ways. I've said it a thousand times base an offense around a QB's strenghts and a productive offense will occur.

That COULD be a somewhat legitimate argument except for the the fact that Capers many times had said that he was adapting a system (I still have to figure out what the "system" was) that played to the players' strengths. That was not apparently the case with Carr.

jerek
08-02-2006, 02:13 PM
Can't have it both ways. I've said it a thousand times base an offense around a QB's strenghts and a productive offense will occur.

Very true and I agree, but IMO, it wasn't a question of Carr correctly "conforming" to Capers' O. Conforming to a bad game plan just means bad play. You can't give someone an awful playbook and expect them to produce good results, no matter how closely the players conform. You wouldn't tell your O to run the hail mary every play and expect them to get anything but stomped.

The issue last year was that Capers' playbook and playcalling was awful.

real
08-02-2006, 02:18 PM
I addressed your post. The reason for the quote at the beginning. No need to get nasty, not that I care. I certainly don't value your opinion enough to get nasty, that would imply that I respect you enough to care. You are just some anonymous words on my screen.

It is easy to deny the value of something that clearly contradicts your point of view. It is the, [insert tact] easy, way out.

The topic of the thread is "Carr Leadership Quote". The thread then evolved/devolved into various discussions about his general merit/lack of.

However, since I did not address his "Leadership Quote" directly I will take your "off topic" criticism fwiw. I do not, however, feel that I am alone in this. i.e. insert mirror, or black kettle.

Dear Sir, or Ma'am....I understand your point of view on Carr...And I don't care about whether you respect me or not, but you obviously cared enough to respond...But when you quoted me the first time you went on a rant...a long rant....about something that my quoted message had nothing to pertain to....I don't mind stating my feelings about Carr..he hasn't performed, but that was not what I was discussing at the time....Like I said, you jumped into a conversation that you knew nothing about, and then referred to me as lazy...ha...I'll be as nasty as I wanna be....with my bad self...lmao

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 02:43 PM
I guess Carr not "conforming" to what Capers wanted caused all the sacks, dropped balls, missed tackles and just over all poor performance by all? Come on, ya'll are reaching!:francis:

But through all that, even though Capers is to blame..... we can spot weak spots on our team............ I'm just saying we need to add Carr to that list. As a poor performer........ he might be an all pro next year, but so may Gaffney, Milford Brown, Dave Ragone, Travis Johnson, Marcus Coleman, Phillip Buchannon.......... heck Tod Wade may even go the the proBowl(if someone picks him up).

KKHouston
08-02-2006, 03:04 PM
But through all that, even though Capers is to blame..... we can spot weak spots on our team............ I'm just saying we need to add Carr to that list. As a poor performer........ he might be an all pro next year, but so may Gaffney, Milford Brown, Dave Ragone, Travis Johnson, Marcus Coleman, Phillip Buchannon.......... heck Tod Wade may even go the the proBowl(if someone picks him up).

In my opinion, what is being said is that if a team in whole does not believe in what they are doing, and not held accountable by the Staff, it results in last year.

No one seriously believes that Capers had any leadership over this team the last season (if not longer), do they?

Kubiak has/is installing a system that above anything else, HE believes in. It's then his job to ensure the team buys into it, as well. Kubiak has that ability - he's proven it in his various roles the last several years.

There is talent on this team. We do have players. Carr must step up, and assume a leadership role. Is he capable? Certainly. Will he? That is yet to be determined, but if you look at Kubiak's history, he can give Carr every opportunity to succeed. I, personally, after watching what he did with Plummer in Denver, believe he can instill a winning attitude. He wasn't perfect with Plummer, but he certainly turned his game around. With work, knowledge, and a good supporting cast.

I'm more excited about this season than I have been in a few years. This draft proved Kubiak has a firm belief in what we had, and what we needed. Vince wasn't the answer... Reggie certainly wasn't. Let's give it a chance, and quit ragging Carr's leadership. He has the option now, if he steps up and shows the abilities I think we ALL know he has. Everyone wanted change. We have it.

mikoto
08-02-2006, 03:19 PM
Dear Sir, or Ma'am....I understand your point of view on Carr...And I don't care about whether you respect me or not, but you obviously cared enough to respond...But when you quoted me the first time you went on a rant...a long rant....about something that my quoted message had nothing to pertain to....I don't mind stating my feelings about Carr..he hasn't performed, but that was not what I was discussing at the time....Like I said, you jumped into a conversation that you knew nothing about, and then referred to me as lazy...ha...I'll be as nasty as I wanna be....with my bad self...lmao


Ah, now I see what your bone of contention was.

I did not mean to imply that you, specifically, are lazy. I meant that terms like "it", "football speed", and "can't teach speed" and many other metaphors and similes common to speech are used because it is difficult to express meaning concisely in nothing more than linear verbal code. I also do not intend to imply that they are not useful at times, they are, but not as a substitute for understanding.

I didn't make that clear and apologize for seeming to call you names. I do not know you, so how could I possibly know your character? I do not think you are lazy, I have no information that would support that conclusion. Again, I apologize.

Laziness or lack thereof was hardly the meat of my post and it wasn't a rant. It was a reasoned pov that bears directly upon the question of David Carr's ability to lead, as in, lead his team to wins. You may disagree with me that it was on topic or that it addressed your post in a relevant way, that is fine, I take no offense.

btw, I read the whole thread. Just because I don't post often doesn't mean that I don't use this board as my primary source of Texans news, i.e. read it alot. I latched on to your post because you used two phrases that shouldn't be applied to nor expected from an athlete on a bad team, "it" and "all world". There was nothing more in that post that interested me, so I used what interested me as a basis to express my views on the matter. Simple as that.

I am habitually verbose, but post infrequently, deal with it or ignore me. Either way, I did not intend to offend you and admit that the mistake, in that regard, was mine.


[edit] btw, I am tired of this and see no reason to continue it in a public forum so I'll drop it here.

HOU-TEX
08-02-2006, 03:20 PM
But through all that, even though Capers is to blame..... we can spot weak spots on our team............ I'm just saying we need to add Carr to that list. As a poor performer........ he might be an all pro next year, but so may Gaffney, Milford Brown, Dave Ragone, Travis Johnson, Marcus Coleman, Phillip Buchannon.......... heck Tod Wade may even go the the proBowl(if someone picks him up).

I agree with this. Don't get me wrong. There's not much to say about any of the players performance to date. Including Carr. My point was for the people saying that it was DCs fault that he never "conformed" to Capers & Co offensive game plan. If there were any truth to that, then it would mean that the team as a unit would be guilty for not "conforming". With that being said, it obviously points directly to the coaching staff to be at fault for not getting the team to "conform" to what they wanted. :brickwall

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 04:40 PM
I, personally, after watching what he did with Plummer in Denver, believe he can instill a winning attitude. He wasn't perfect with Plummer, but he certainly turned his game around. With work, knowledge, and a good supporting cast.



the situation, is totally different......

Jake showed hints of talent all the while he was in Arizona..... if you watched his games, if you watched him play, you could see the guy had what it takes to win... Jake has/had it, and it was always obvious.

with David, we have to build a probowl team around him before we can even see if he has it??

Can we win with David?? I'm sure we can...... can David throw for 4000 yards in '06?? with Molds, Andre, Putz, Cook, DD, and all the other guys fighting to be our #3 reciever, I'm expecting him to at least go over 3500.... I'm pretty sure I could.

Is it all Capers fault?? that's the main thing I'm arguing here...... Mostly, maybe.. But David is a Pro making plenty of money, he could have found many was to improve his game(it wasn't a secret that he's been underperforming for some time now)...... He's supposed to be good friends with his Idol Trent Dilfer.... he could have worked out with him some time...... He could've asked Mathis(who also needed to work) Armstrong(who also needed work) Andre, Gaffney, Bradford(who also needed the work) to work out with him before the season...... After the season....... after practice... he could have gone back to Fresno state and work with people he knows..... I don't know, but there are a lot of things he could've done to be better.....

but in '05........ even if you take away all the sacks, all the losses, (which I'm not blaming on him), he played poorly. As poorly as McKinney did at Center...... As poorly as Wiegart at Right Gaurd, as Poorly as Buchannon at Corner, Coleman at safety........ ok, maybe not that bad. But David Carr performed badly.......

Some of the blame...... coaching of course.

And all this talk about David being the ultimate team player, and conforming to whatever Capers had envisioned........ well that's just plain stupid. If I get fired, cut from the team, whatever......... because I'm trying to win games, then so be it. I will butt heads with the coach, and call an audible, a hot route, or a blocking scheme if I feel the coach is out of touch, or incometent.

Yeah, I might end up with T.O.s reputation, but when I do get picked up by my next team....... and if David is as talented and as good a guy as you all think he is, then he will be picked up...... I will work my butt off to prove that I need to be starting...... even if that means sitting on the bench behind Michael Vick(which would drive any QB worth his salt crazy) for two years......

I personally don't want a QB that is good enough......... like Dilfer, or Johnson. & I don't want a QB who stays, because he's got a good thing going, and doesn't want to rock the boat, when he knows the boat is sinking.

hollywood_texan
08-02-2006, 04:52 PM
I, personally, after watching what he did with Plummer in Denver, believe he can instill a winning attitude. He wasn't perfect with Plummer, but he certainly turned his game around. With work, knowledge, and a good supporting cast.

Let's take into consideration that Denver selected a quarterback at the #11 overall pick this year (and traded up with several trades no less). This is two months after Plummer led them to the conference championship.

Plummer had a good year in '05, but is seems clear that Denver is not sold on Plummer being their starter for '07 or '08. Denver spent a lot to trade up, and I seriously doubt it is solely for insurance purposes.

Apply that to the Carr analysis when comparing him to the Kubiak tutoring of Plummer.

U4ikrob
08-02-2006, 05:01 PM
Like on of those old adages - It's hard to fly with the Eagles when your surrounded by Turkeys.

Carr has some blame for sure, but once again I would labor that the entirety of blame being put on him to perform at All-pro levels while being hampered with a make-shift o-line, a clueless coaching staff and fan expecations that are so far out there its just unfathomable.

While I understand some of your point Thunder - I disagree with the amount of blame you put on DC's shoulders and the success level you seem to think he should have by now. He's a paid Pro for sure, but like all rookies he didnt come to this team that way and certainly had much to learn about playing his position succesfully, being a pro in this league, being a pro about the job. Couple those thigns with a bunch of nitwits as your Coaching staff - no positions coach and that leaves you with doing most things on your own. We basically had a bunch of players going about a job for 4 years IMO - not really a team and thus they played up and down accordingly. Honestly i'm surprised he turned out with parts still in tact after those 4 seasons and how the staff pretty much left him to the wolves on alot of things to do with being a pro on the team.

So you think your good enough to play with the Texans and pass for 3500 yds or better this next year easy eh???

Not going to question your fitness levels, but uhmmm Question - why are you not starting for some pro-team some where?

infantrycak
08-02-2006, 05:22 PM
the situation, is totally different......

Jake showed hints of talent all the while he was in Arizona..... if you watched his games, if you watched him play, you could see the guy had what it takes to win... Jake has/had it, and it was always obvious.

So now you were a closet Cards fan for years? Trying to push Plummer into the "always obvious" category is about like giving Horton the elephant a boost to sit on the bird's nest.

with David, we have to build a probowl team around him before we can even see if he has it??

And going to the 9-7 Broncos with Clinton Portis, Rod Smith, Al Wilson was? Nice job of constructing a future argument though--if Carr succeeds at all it was the team not him.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 05:26 PM
While I understand some of your point Thunder - I disagree with the amount of blame you put on DC's shoulders and the success level you seem to think he should have by now. He's a paid Pro for sure, but like all rookies he didnt come to this team that way and certainly had much to learn about playing his position succesfully, being a pro in this league, being a pro about the job.

For the record, I do not blame one loss on David Carr....... But I expect him not to run into sacks, not to run out of bounds with the ball behind the LOS...., not to assume the fetal position before contact is made, not to miss wide open recievers(I know he hit a particular guy in the helmet once, but you know he's missed guys..... either with a bad throw, or just didn't see them), I expect him to hit his recievers in stride(granted, most NFL starters don't), I expect him to get to the LOS and hike the ball before time expires...

Personally, I don't have a problem with keeping David through a coaching change..... I am disappointed, that it took a 2-14 season to realize we need the change...... and contrary to popular belief, I do not wish that we had drafted a certain Houston Native who just won the national championship..... by himself according to most U.S. publications and sports analasysts... I would have been upset if we had wasted......... I repeat, wasted that draft pick on a RB who is anything but your prototypical RB.......

I hope for all the best for David Carr..... I won't boo him..... EVER........ but I will call a duck a duck........ if he walks like a duck....




So you think your good enough to play with the Texans and pass for 3500 yds or better this next year easy eh???

Not going to question your fitness levels, but uhmmm Question - why are you not starting for some pro-team some where?


Not every ProTeam has 4 ProBowlers on offense.....

texan279
08-02-2006, 05:27 PM
the situation, is totally different......

Jake showed hints of talent all the while he was in Arizona..... if you watched his games, if you watched him play, you could see the guy had what it takes to win... Jake has/had it, and it was always obvious.


Plummer was horrible in Arizona...

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 05:30 PM
Apply that to the Carr analysis when comparing him to the Kubiak tutoring of Plummer.

I can apply it Brian Griese and Brain Griese had the same 4th Quarter problems that Denver couldn't fix.

Then they went out and got a guy that was the opposite of Griese. A guy that had shown 4th Quarter performance, but lacked good judgement in the other three.

Plummer is nothing like Carr outside of being strong armed and mobile. That's it. Their personalities, field presence, and football decisions are completely polar.

Jake's a buck to the NFL, to fans, and rubberneckers. That's not Carr.

KKHouston
08-02-2006, 05:38 PM
Plummer was horrible in Arizona...

He did show signs of promise. But then again, Carr has shown signs as well, regardless what the masses choose to remember.

Plummer is NOT the Broncos choice for the future, and rightly so. He's had two seasons under Kubiak/Shanahan, and HAS made huge improvements in decision making, and ability. Plummer's a head case though. When pressured, he made decisions based upon his so-called ability to make it happen, as was evident in the playoffs last year - he simply fell back upon old habits when the pressure got to him. Do you sincerely think Carr and Plummer are even close to being the same type of quarterback? David has the ability to be taught. I'm not sure Plummer cares enough.

Kubiak has the knowledge, and the skill (I sincerely believe) to either make Carr perform to his ability, or recognize he's bet the farm on someone who can't make it.

It's not the team around him, or the player himself. It's how they accept the fact that they are a team, and each must do their job. If you're handling your business, it enables me to handle process.

The argument about Dilfer being his friend has no bearing on this. We all saw the spark and will when Carr called his own plays last year, didn't we?

infantrycak
08-02-2006, 05:40 PM
Plummer was horrible in Arizona...

You have to love when TK pulls this kind of stuff out.

Jake was always obvious with his 1st 4 years and Carr has shown nothing at all.

Plummer--56% comp. 10997 yds, 6.47 ypa, 54 TD's (3.1%), 80 INT's (4.7%) 66.2 QB rating.

Carr--57.8% comp. (with the last two years over 60%--something Plummer only did once his 1st 6 seasons), 10624 yds, 6.53 ypa, 48 TD's (2.8%), 53 INT's (3.2%--and more TD's than INT's last two years vs. 0 for plummer) 73.7 QB rating.

Seems to me we are far closer to both being in the hasn't proven anything category.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 05:55 PM
You have to love when TK pulls this kind of stuff out.

Jake was always obvious with his 1st 4 years and Carr has shown nothing at all.

Plummer--56% comp. 10997 yds, 6.47 ypa, 54 TD's (3.1%), 80 INT's (4.7%) 66.2 QB rating.

Carr--57.8% comp. (with the last two years over 60%--something Plummer only did once his 1st 6 seasons), 10624 yds, 6.53 ypa, 48 TD's (2.8%), 53 INT's (3.2%--and more TD's than INT's last two years vs. 0 for plummer) 73.7 QB rating.

Seems to me we are far closer to both being in the hasn't proven anything category.


true...... neither had proven anything by year 4...... and that's why I said when you watch him play.. Arizona sucked...... Jake showed promise..... the Texans sucked... Carr showed... potential??

Jake had a lower QB rating, completion percentage, and less YPA.... but he had more yards, more tochdowns...... more Ints.. but that's what happens when you don't take/manufacture sacks.

I bet..........because I haven't looked...... I bet Jake had more wins by year 4(team sport...... yeah, I know) more comeback wins..... more 3 TD games, more first downs, more multiple touchdown games.....

& I bet...... because I have no way of knowing...... that drafting Cutler says more about what the Broncos think about Cutler than what they think about Jake.

infantrycak
08-02-2006, 06:05 PM
true...... neither had proven anything by year 4...... and that's why I said when you watch him play.. Arizona sucked...... Jake showed promise..... the Texans sucked... Carr showed... potential??

What Jake showed was exceedingly bad judgment racking up 9 TD's and 24 INT's in one season, etc. Where he had more highlight reel throws it was because Vince Tobin and his staff didn't crawl into a shell of denial and actually called plays as if they were down on points, desperate and needed to make something happen.

but he had more yards,

He had 300 odd more yds on 300 odd more attempts--you really going to try to spin that into a positive.

more tochdowns...... more Ints.. but that's what happens when you don't take/manufacture sacks.

Ummm, if you say so.

I bet..........because I haven't looked...... I bet Jake had more wins by year 4(team sport...... yeah, I know)

The Cards won 4 more games over a 4 year time period without having been an expansion team. Maybe you can call that significant.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 06:12 PM
What Jake showed was exceedingly bad judgment racking up 9 TD's and 24 INT's in one season, etc. Where he had more highlight reel throws it was because Vince Tobin and his staff didn't crawl into a shell of denial and actually called plays as if they were down on points, desperate and needed to make something happen.



He had 300 odd more yds on 300 odd more attempts--you really going to try to spin that into a positive.



Ummm, if you say so.



The Cards won 4 more games over a 4 year time period without having been an expansion team. Maybe you can call that significant.


Fine....... let's meet halfway. I algree that Jake sucked..... and showed poor judgement..... and you can agree that Carr sucked, while showing good judgement.....

and as far as I'm concerned, the Cardinals have been an expansion team for the last 15 years.

KKHouston
08-02-2006, 06:12 PM
Jake had a lower QB rating, completion percentage, and less YPA.... but he had more yards, more tochdowns...... more Ints.. but that's what happens when you don't take/manufacture sacks.


TK... even when dumbed-down, you still miss the point. You're argument is not making sense to anyone but yourself, here.

More yards? 370? Okay. Capers liked to run the ball.

4 more touchdowns? Well, 370 yards and 4 touchdowns are right on mark.

Interceptions? 80 vs. Carr's 53. Sounds to me like Carr is making better decisions than he was. How many games were lost due to Carr throwing an INT?

Jake improved though. He did get better under Kubiak, but was like making a Hyundai into a Porsche. You can only get so far on it before you decide the cost isn't worth it.

Carr is showing he makes better decisions, and with Kubiak in his face all the time, it stands to reason he can develop into the QB we need.



Plummer and Carr are the not the same quarterback. The point was that Plummer has shown improvement under Kubiak, even if his head isn't in the game. Carr has shown he WANTS to be able to succeed. He has the tools he needs to do this now. If he doesn't succeed, then move on. If he does, it's because he was given the necessary tools for success... something he hasn't had.

jerek
08-02-2006, 06:14 PM
the situation, is totally different......

Jake showed hints of talent all the while he was in Arizona..... if you watched his games, if you watched him play, you could see the guy had what it takes to win... Jake has/had it, and it was always obvious.

Maybe you are referring to Plummer in his third year, 1998, when he started 16 games and led the Cardinals to a 9-7 record, throwing 17 TDs and 20 INTs and notching a QB rating of 75.0. That was alright ... but what about 1999, when he started 11 games and threw 9 TDs, 24 INTs, 2111 yards, and a QB rating of 50.3, on the way to a 6-10 record? Or possibly the Jake Plummer who in 2000 led his team to a 3-13 record, started 14 games and notched a QB rating of 66.0 (13 TDs, 21 INTs, 2946 yards)? How about the Plummer of 2002 (his sixth year), where he led the Cardinals to an astounding 5-11 record, threw 18 TDs, 20 INTs, 2972 yards, and a QB rating of 65.7?

Carr has shown plenty of "hints of talent" in his career to date. If you watched his games, if you watched him play, you could see the guy had what it takes to win ... David has it, and it was always obvious.

with David, we have to build a probowl team around him before we can even see if he has it??

Dude, if you refuse to understand, grasp, or deal with the basic premise that our expansion team was awful and was very marginally improved upon -- and at points sabotaged -- by Capers and Casserly, then I don't know what to say toward convincing you. I could point to the scores of our ex-players and coaching staff who are as of today unemployed, but that sort of discussion reeks of fact, so I presume you'll run from that as well.

Can we win with David?? I'm sure we can...... can David throw for 4000 yards in '06?? with Molds, Andre, Putz, Cook, DD, and all the other guys fighting to be our #3 reciever, I'm expecting him to at least go over 3500.... I'm pretty sure I could.

I think he can as well.

Is it all Capers fault?? that's the main thing I'm arguing here...... Mostly, maybe.. But David is a Pro making plenty of money, he could have found many was to improve his game(it wasn't a secret that he's been underperforming for some time now)...... He's supposed to be good friends with his Idol Trent Dilfer.... he could have worked out with him some time...... He could've asked Mathis(who also needed to work) Armstrong(who also needed work) Andre, Gaffney, Bradford(who also needed the work) to work out with him before the season...... After the season....... after practice... he could have gone back to Fresno state and work with people he knows..... I don't know, but there are a lot of things he could've done to be better.....

What's amazing about your statement is that you are issuing a colossal assumption as fact. What's worse is that it is fraudulently incorrect. There have been many documented instances of Carr working with his receivers, staying after the minimum practice, and working out above and beyond the basic mandatory sessions.

but in '05........ even if you take away all the sacks, all the losses, (which I'm not blaming on him), he played poorly. As poorly as McKinney did at Center...... As poorly as Wiegart at Right Gaurd, as Poorly as Buchannon at Corner, Coleman at safety........ ok, maybe not that bad. But David Carr performed badly.......

I don't think anyone is denying that David Carr underperformed in 05.

Some of the blame...... coaching of course.

There are degrees and its your right to draw the line differently.

And all this talk about David being the ultimate team player, and conforming to whatever Capers had envisioned........ well that's just plain stupid. If I get fired, cut from the team, whatever......... because I'm trying to win games, then so be it. I will butt heads with the coach, and call an audible, a hot route, or a blocking scheme if I feel the coach is out of touch, or incometent.

Yeah, I might end up with T.O.s reputation, but when I do get picked up by my next team....... and if David is as talented and as good a guy as you all think he is, then he will be picked up...... I will work my butt off to prove that I need to be starting...... even if that means sitting on the bench behind Michael Vick(which would drive any QB worth his salt crazy) for two years......

If only it were that simple. You're right; there are many instances in which an NFL quarterback has deliberately flaunted the coaches' playcall and run his own offense, successfully I might add.

I personally don't want a QB that is good enough......... like Dilfer, or Johnson. & I don't want a QB who stays, because he's got a good thing going, and doesn't want to rock the boat, when he knows the boat is sinking.

Gary Kubiak is staking his job on Carr being that QB. Many other people agree.

There is plenty of reasonable basis for disliking David Carr, without having to outright make things up to support your case. You might as well have gone with the long hair argument; that at least is a verifable fact, let alone debating a proper causal effect.

texan279
08-02-2006, 06:19 PM
Gary Kubiak is staking his job on Carr being that QB. Many other people agree.

I was watching Bob McNair on channel 8 on Sunday and he talked a little about Carr and said that all seven coaches that were interviewed for the head coaching job agreed that Carr could take the Texans to the Super Bowl, take it FWIW...

kbourda
08-02-2006, 06:21 PM
Also one advantage Plummer has over Carr in all of this is that at least Plummer had previous experience in running the type of offense that was used by Denver. Like it or not, i'd be suprised if Carr can pick up the WCO in one year. Honestly, I don't want him to do bad. But at the same time running the WCO for the first time has shown me otherwise.

KKHouston
08-02-2006, 06:28 PM
Also one advantage Plummer has over Carr in all of this is that at least Plummer had previous experience in running the type of offense that was used by Denver. Like it or not, i'd be suprised if Carr can pick up the WCO in one year. Honestly, I don't want him to do bad. But at the same time running the WCO for the first time has shown me otherwise.

Good point... but in the modified form Denver ran, I think it's highly probable that we will see success more quickly. Remember, the WCO depends on options, and from what we are seeing, we're going to have them.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 06:35 PM
Maybe you are referring to Plummer in his third year, 1998, when he started 16 games and led the Cardinals to a 9-7 record, throwing 17 TDs and 20 INTs and notching a QB rating of 75.0. That was alright ... but what about 1999, when he started 11 games and threw 9 TDs, 24 INTs, 2111 yards, and a QB rating of 50.3, on the way to a 6-10 record? Or possibly the Jake Plummer who in 2000 led his team to a 3-13 record, started 14 games and notched a QB rating of 66.0 (13 TDs, 21 INTs, 2946 yards)? How about the Plummer of 2002 (his sixth year), where he led the Cardinals to an astounding 5-11 record, threw 18 TDs, 20 INTs, 2972 yards, and a QB rating of 65.7?


If it makes you feel any better...... I didn't think we had seen all that Jake Plummer was capable of until his sixth year... I totally agreed with the change of scenery, but didn't care to follow him after he left Arizona.... for some reason I always wanted him to succeed in Arizona...

And..... I agree... his stats aren't very flattering... but I personally saw a good QB on a bad team when I watched Plummer, Kitna, and Harrington...

It's just my opinion, but I only see an avg QB on a bad team when I see David Carr. But that's just me.

Carr has shown plenty of "hints of talent" in his career to date. If you watched his games, if you watched him play, you could see the guy had what it takes to win ... David has it, and it was always obvious.

uh..... no, it's not that obvious really....

Dude, if you refuse to understand, grasp, or deal with the basic premise that our expansion team was awful and was very marginally improved upon -- and at points sabotaged -- by Capers and Casserly, then I don't know what to say toward convincing you.

did you see a 2-14 season coming in 2006?? 8-8?? 9-7?? I saw at least 10 wins..... at least.

I could point to the scores of our ex-players and coaching staff who are as of today unemployed, but that sort of discussion reeks of fact, so I presume you'll run from that as well.

define running.....

What's amazing about your statement is that you are issuing a colossal assumption as fact. What's worse is that it is fraudulently incorrect. There have been many documented instances of Carr working with his receivers, staying after the minimum practice, and working out above and beyond the basic mandatory sessions.


Prior to 2006?? I'm sorry, but I don't recall any....... I have admitted to having a very short memory... but I think I would have liked to have seen something like that, and would have remembered....

But I won't call you a liar......... I'll just say I must have missed them.... every single one of them.



I don't think anyone is denying that David Carr underperformed in 05.


Sounds like it.


There are degrees and its your right to draw the line differently.



If only it were that simple. You're right; there are many instances in which an NFL quarterback has deliberately flaunted the coaches' playcall and run his own offense, successfully I might add.

that's neither here nor there....... that part of my argument was mainly for the guys who say David took sacks to keep the clock running...... because Capers told him to..... something I refuse to believe.

Gary Kubiak is staking his job on Carr being that QB. Many other people agree.

There is plenty of reasonable basis for disliking David Carr, without having to outright make things up to support your case. You might as well have gone with the long hair argument; that at least is a verifable fact, let alone debating a proper causal effect.

What did I make up?? that I bet Plummer had more wins his first 4 years, or that I saw more promise in Plummer through his first four years?? here is something else I'll fabricate...... I see more promise in Aaron Brooks, and Joey Harrington...

KKHouston
08-02-2006, 06:40 PM
II see more promise in Aaron Brooks, and Joey Harrington...


That's just plain wrong, TK. :rolleyes:

texan279
08-02-2006, 06:40 PM
If it makes you feel any better...... I didn't think we had seen all that Jake Plummer was capable of until his sixth year... I totally agreed with the change of scenery, but didn't care to follow him after he left Arizona.... for some reason I always wanted him to succeed in Arizona...

And..... I agree... his stats aren't very flattering... but I personally saw a good QB on a bad team when I watched Plummer, Kitna, and Harrington...

So Plummer gets six years then why not Carr? And if those three QB's were really that good, the Broncos would more than likely not have drafted Cutler in the 1st and Kitna and Harrington would be starters somewhere.

jerek
08-02-2006, 06:55 PM
I see more promise in Aaron Brooks, and Joey Harrington...

You could have said that from the top ... so I could conveniently ignore the rest of your opinions for the remainder of my life.

Sorry dude, it's your opinion and it's your right to have it, but that just speaks louder than anything you've said to this point.

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 06:57 PM
So Plummer gets six years then why not Carr? And if those three QB's were really that good, the Broncos would more than likely not have drafted Cutler in the 1st and Kitna and Harrington would be starters somewhere.

Because Plummer was ranked in the top 5 QBs in his second season on 9-7 season and then again top 10 on a 7-9 season. That earns him at least some reason to be kept.
EDIT:
To add he had Vince Tobin, no real running game, a few highlight reels of WRs ( Boston/Moore ), no real TEs, and a defense that had some reputation, but always seemed to fall short when stacked up against the other 30 teams in the NFL. ( esp. when talking about points allowed )
EDIT II:
It should also be added that Capers, Fangio, McGinnis are all Tobin guys. Sherman I suppose endorses him also ( or did at one time )

Kitna-Harrington... TK you are on your own there. Kitna and Harrington are only marginally better or worse than Carr.

Carr Bombed
08-02-2006, 07:45 PM
And..... I agree... his stats aren't very flattering... but I personally saw a good QB on a bad team when I watched Plummer, Kitna, and Harrington...

It's just my opinion, but I only see an avg QB on a bad team when I see David Carr. But that's just me.

I see more promise in Aaron Brooks, and Joey Harrington...

I try to stay out of these kind of threads now, because they tend to go nowhere and just limp along for days like a wounded animal.........but

Since I'm now stationed in Michigan and had the opportunity to watch every Lions game. (The Texans weren't giving me much reason to drive to the sports bar on a sunday the 2nd half of the season)

Joey Harrington is horrible, he's a horrible QB playing on a avg/not that bad of a team.

The man can't hit a lateral moving target to save his life, either due to accuracy or arm strength, I think both apply here.

Every slant route or a receiver going accross the middle is null and void. By the time Joey's ball gets there the receiver is gone or he would throw it before the receiver ever got there, his vision and timing sucks. Joey threw 12 picks last year and just about every pick came on plays like this.

His footwork is equally horrible and he was impatient and looked scared. People knock Carr for taking sacks, Joey doesn't even let plays develop. He has never completed over 57% of his passes, Joey is horrible. Kitna is not the answer, but I bet he will net them atleast 4 more wins and keep the seat warm until another QB is groomed.

Joey will be another career backup.

Okay I'm done with my rant now.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 08:28 PM
I try to stay out of these kind of threads now, because they tend to go nowhere and just limp along for days like a wounded animal.........but

Since I'm now stationed in Michigan and had the opportunity to watch every Lions game. (The Texans weren't giving me much reason to drive to the sports bar on a sunday the 2nd half of the season)

Joey Harrington is horrible, he's a horrible QB playing on a avg/not that bad of a team.

The man can't hit a lateral moving target to save his life, either due to accuracy or arm strength, I think both apply here.

Every slant route or a receiver going accross the middle is null and void. By the time Joey's ball gets there the receiver is gone or he would through it before the receiver ever got there, his vision and timing sucks. Joey threw 12 picks last year and just about every pick came on plays like this.

His footwork is equally horrible and he was impatient and looked scared. People knock Carr for taking sacks, Joey doesn't even let plays develop. He has never completed over 57% of his passes, Joey is horrible. Kitna is not the answer, but I bet he will net them atleast 4 more wins and keep the seat warm until another QB is groomed.

Joey will be another career backup.

Okay I'm done with my rant now.


Overall, a great post..... but...

#1, I didn't say I think Kitna has more potential than Carr....... far as I'm concerned, they are about equally mundane and avg..... If I were any other team than the Texans, and I had to choose between Carr for $8 million, or Kitna for $2 million, I'd take Kitna, and believe I got the better value.

However, I do understand the Texans paying David.... I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done the same thing, but It would have taken a few sleepless nights before I decided one way or the other.

Secondly..... if you're one of those guys who thinks Mooch(unemployed Mooch as far as I know) ever had what it takes to be called a good coach, then there isn't anything I can say that will change your mind about Joey Harrington.

And there is no way I am ever going to believe the Detroit Lions have ever (in that teams entire history) fielded a better team than what we've put on the field in the last 4 years...... I just won't believe it.

And I'll take a guy that at least throws the ball, and give his team a chance to win........ over a guy who eats it every time.......

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 08:36 PM
You could have said that from the top ... so I could conveniently ignore the rest of your opinions for the remainder of my life.

Sorry dude, it's your opinion and it's your right to have it, but that just speaks louder than anything you've said to this point.


looking at the stats, can you tell me that Joey is that different from Carr?? didn't we just go over this.... damn near equal... factor in sacks, ints, tDs, yards lost, how many times those sacks turned into three and outs....... that kind of thing. They really aren't that different.

and Brooks woops Carr's you know what, all day long if we're just looking at stats.

Carr's got a stronger arm than Joey, I'll give you that..... but Carr ain't got nothing on Brooks.

EDIT: I'll add....... that I pray to god... David throws for 3800 yards in '06....... but I bet Aaron Brookes(sp) beats that.....

the wonger need food
08-02-2006, 08:43 PM
EDIT: I'll add....... that I pray to god... David throws for 3800 yards in '06....... but I bet Aaron Brookes(sp) beats that.....

And Brooks will single-handedly lose at least 5 games with his dumb mistakes.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 08:46 PM
So Plummer gets six years then why not Carr? And if those three QB's were really that good, the Broncos would more than likely not have drafted Cutler in the 1st and Kitna and Harrington would be starters somewhere.

Plummer didn't get 6 years...... Plummer earned six years.....

Because Plummer was ranked in the top 5 QBs in his second season on 9-7 season and then again top 10 on a 7-9 season. That earns him at least some reason to be kept.
EDIT:
To add he had Vince Tobin, no real running game, a few highlight reels of WRs ( Boston/Moore ), no real TEs, and a defense that had some reputation, but always seemed to fall short when stacked up against the other 30 teams in the NFL. ( esp. when talking about points allowed )
EDIT II:
It should also be added that Capers, Fangio, McGinnis are all Tobin guys. Sherman I suppose endorses him also ( or did at one time )

Kitna-Harrington... TK you are on your own there. Kitna and Harrington are only marginally better or worse than Carr.

Thankyou TwinSister...... Kitna & David, I agree....... I still think Harrington hasn't got a fair shot in this league yet........ no better than Carr has.

Someone made the comment that Joey doesn't give plays time to develop.... I do agree with that, and I was very disappointed when I started to see him leave the pocket early....... but that's what happens to QBs with poor offensive lines.... some leave the pocket early and try to make something out of nothing..... others..... assume the fetal position.

texan279
08-02-2006, 08:48 PM
Because Plummer was ranked in the top 5 QBs in his second season on 9-7 season and then again top 10 on a 7-9 season. That earns him at least some reason to be kept.
EDIT:
To add he had Vince Tobin, no real running game, a few highlight reels of WRs ( Boston/Moore ), no real TEs, and a defense that had some reputation, but always seemed to fall short when stacked up against the other 30 teams in the NFL. ( esp. when talking about points allowed )
EDIT II:
It should also be added that Capers, Fangio, McGinnis are all Tobin guys. Sherman I suppose endorses him also ( or did at one time )

Kitna-Harrington... TK you are on your own there. Kitna and Harrington are only marginally better or worse than Carr.

And what did Plummer do in his 3rd and 4th season? In his first 2 seasons, Plummer completed 57% of his passes, threw for 5940 yards, 32 TD's and 35 INT's with a QB rating of 74.3 and the Card's went 13-19. In his 3rd and 4th season, he completed 55% of his passes, threw for 5057 yards, 22 TD's and 45 INT's with a QB rating of 59.2 and the Card's went 9-23. So after playing decent football his first two years, Plummer's play declined dramatically, so he gets a free pass until year six. Now, carr's first two seasons he completed 54% of his passes, threw for 4605 yards, 18 TD's and 28 INT's for a rating of 65 and the Texans went 9-23. In Carr's 3rd and 4th season, he completed 60% of his passes, threw for 6019 yards, 30 TD's and 25 INT's for a rating of 80.3 and the Texans went 9-23. So Plummer's play declines from seasons one and two to seasons 3 and 4 that allows him a free pass to year six while Carr's play improves from seasons one and two to seasons three and four and that means that Carr doesn't get a pass until season six? If this is Plummer "earing six years" as TK put it, then Carr has earned himself 8 years...

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 08:49 PM
And Brooks will single-handedly lose at least 5 games with his dumb mistakes.

no.... he's got a coach now that knows how to act like a coach.... not that unemployed fella who gave him free reign, with no fear of being held accountable for anything.....

of all his goof-ups, I only recall Hazz getting on Aaron once......... he'll blame everything and everybody before he blamed Aaron.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 08:57 PM
And what did Plummer do in his 3rd and 4th season? In his first 2 seasons, Plummer completed 57% of his passes, threw for 5940 yards, 32 TD's and 35 INT's with a QB rating of 74.3 and the Card's went 13-19. In his 3rd and 4th season, he completed 55% of his passes, threw for 5057 yards, 22 TD's and 45 INT's with a QB rating of 59.2 and the Card's went 9-23. So after playing decent football his first two years, Plummer's play declined dramatically, so he gets a free pass until year six. Now, carr's first two seasons he completed 54% of his passes, threw for 4605 yards, 18 TD's and 28 INT's for a rating of 65 and the Texans went 9-23. In Carr's 3rd and 4th season, he completed 60% of his passes, threw for 6019 yards, 30 TD's and 25 INT's for a rating of 80.3 and the Texans went 9-23. So Plummer's play declines from seasons one and two to seasons 3 and 4 that allows him a free pass to year six while Carr's play improves from seasons one and two to seasons three and four and that means that Carr doesn't get a pass until season six? If this is Plummer "earing six years" as TK put it, then Carr has earned himself 8 years...

Which Arizona Cardinal ran for 1000 yards in any of Jake's first six years?? Which reciever went to the pro-Bowl?? Jake was the Cardinals...

Edit:
Oh........ I'm not saying David doesn't belong here. Just saying he sucked.... I expect him to suck somewhat.... Capers, Line....... etc........ but not in the way that he sucked.

texan279
08-02-2006, 09:00 PM
Which Arizona Cardinal ran for 1000 yards in any of Jake's first six years?? Which reciever went to the pro-Bowl?? Jake was the Cardinals...

Rob Moore (WR) pro bowl in 1997, Plummer's rookie season, and Adrian Murrell ran for 1042 yards in 1998, Plummer's second season.

jerek
08-02-2006, 09:00 PM
looking at the stats, can you tell me that Joey is that different from Carr?? didn't we just go over this.... damn near equal... factor in sacks, ints, tDs, yards lost, how many times those sacks turned into three and outs....... that kind of thing. They really aren't that different.

and Brooks woops Carr's you know what, all day long if we're just looking at stats.

Carr's got a stronger arm than Joey, I'll give you that..... but Carr ain't got nothing on Brooks.

EDIT: I'll add....... that I pray to god... David throws for 3800 yards in '06....... but I bet Aaron Brookes(sp) beats that.....

Sometimes I think you actually mean these things when you say them.

Statwise, I will give Aaron Brooks the edge, but once again you're taking numbers outside of a context. Brooks didn't really play his first two years: so are we saying Carr would be better had he sat his first two years, or are we saying that the two should be measured equally through their first four years? In either event, Brooks built his numbers with a semi-established (I say semi- because they are the Saints) team that enjoyed one of the very weakest conferences and strength of schedules in the NFL. Brooks threw close to 100 more passes per season than DC and arguably had a better receiver tandem to work with.

Harrington also played in a weaker conference, threw about 100 more balls per season than Carr, and yet finished with a weaker QB rating in every season. Now, the Lions are just as much a disaster as the Texans were management wise, and the difference in their stats is not that much, so I'll grant that the jury might be out on Joey as well. That said, there is no comparison between arm strength and toughness.

At the end of the day there is still no comparison in offensive lines betweem Carr's and either Brooks' or Harrington's. As was published on the board awhile back, video review revealed that only 20 sacks in 2005 were Carr's fault. Still a lot, and without doubt something Carr needs to work on, but QB stats to do not tell the whole story.

I pointed out Plummer's stats earlier because you were making a really colossal stretch in comparing the two and asserting that Plummer was somehow markedly better. Statistically they were similar and both began their careers on crappy teams.

texan279
08-02-2006, 09:02 PM
Rob Moore (WR) pro bowl in 1997, Plummer's rookie season, and Adrian Murrell ran for 1042 yards in 1998, Plummer's second season.

And in 2001, David Boston (WR) went to the pro bowl.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 09:16 PM
Sometimes I think you actually mean these things when you say them.

....... sometimes I do.....



sometimes..


Statwise, I will give Aaron Brooks the edge, but once again you're taking numbers outside of a context. Brooks didn't really play his first two years: so are we saying Carr would be better had he sat his first two years, or are we saying that the two should be measured equally through their first four years? In either event, Brooks built his numbers with a semi-established (I say semi- because they are the Saints) team that enjoyed one of the very weakest conferences and strength of schedules in the NFL. Brooks threw close to 100 more passes per season than DC and arguably had a better receiver tandem to work with.

Good Points... Except I'll take Andre & Bradford/Gaffney over Joe Horn and Dante Stallworth


but that's me.


Harrington also played in a weaker conference, threw about 100 more balls per season than Carr, and yet finished with a weaker QB rating in every season. Now, the Lions are just as much a disaster as the Texans were management wise, and the difference in their stats is not that much, so I'll grant that the jury might be out on Joey as well. That said, there is no comparison between arm strength and toughness.

Green Bay..... Minnesota....

Indy.... Jacksonville.....

Marginally more difficult.....

At the end of the day there is still no comparison in offensive lines betweem Carr's and either Brooks' or Harrington's. As was published on the board awhile back, video review revealed that only 20 sacks in 2005 were Carr's fault. Still a lot, and without doubt something Carr needs to work on, but QB stats to do not tell the whole story.

hmm.......... so you're saying Aaron and Joey were running around like that for the heck of it......... had nothing to do with a pourous offensive line?? true enough they didn't get sacked as often as David did. and the only stat we look at when judging offensive lines is sacks given up........ so I guess we really can't compare..

I pointed out Plummer's stats earlier because you were making a really colossal stretch in comparing the two and asserting that Plummer was somehow markedly better. Statistically they were similar and both began their careers on crappy teams.

My assessment was regardless of stats....... I thought Jake showed promise in his early years in Arizona. Jake was on a bad team...... Carr was on a bad team...... I thought Jake showed promise..... I think David has shown that he is tough....

I don't have a problem with David..... I have a problem with people ragging on Tj, Babin, Buchannon, Wade, Wand, Peek, McKinney, even replacing DD........

But mention Carr....... and it was the coaching...... the same coaching those other guys had..... look back, on this thread...... that is what is being said..... Everybody else just flat out sucks....... but David Carr.... he played bad, because he had bad coaches.

TexansLucky13
08-02-2006, 09:24 PM
Oh........ I'm not saying David doesn't belong here. Just saying he sucked.... I expect him to suck somewhat.... Capers, Line....... etc........ but not in the way that he sucked.

It's getting harder and harder for you to disguise the bias, thunderkyss.

I am calling you out. Right now. Show me that stats that prove that Carr has sucked, especially in the past two years. Show me the stats that contradict the fact that he threw for 3500 yards in 2004, with more TDs than INTs.

Maybe you dont want to play the stat swap game? I really dont think that that has ever been your gig. Tell me what about him, as a player, makes him so terrible.

I am calling you out. Don't hide.... I won't. Don't stutter.... I won't. Don't back down.... because I will definitely NOT.

It is time for the Carr haters to man up and stop taking the cheap shots. Let's rumble. I have all night.

texan279
08-02-2006, 09:27 PM
It's getting harder and harder for you to disguise the bias, thunderkyss.

I am calling you out. Right now. Show me that stats that prove that Carr has sucked, especially in the past two years. Show me the stats that contradict the fact that he threw for 3500 yards in 2004, with more TDs than INTs.

Maybe you dont want to play the stat swap game? I really dont think that that has ever been your gig. Tell me what about him, as a player, makes him so terrible.

I am calling you out. Don't hide.... I won't. Don't stutter.... I won't. Don't back down.... because I will definitely NOT.

It is time for the Carr haters to man up and stop taking the cheap shots. Let's rumble. I have all night.

Just check the post I made in this thread earlier, post #93. All the ammo you need is there. :shades:

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 09:29 PM
. So Plummer's play declines from seasons one and two to seasons 3 and 4 that allows him a free pass to year six while Carr's play improves from seasons one and two to seasons three and four and that means that Carr doesn't get a pass until season six? If this is Plummer "earing six years" as TK put it, then Carr has earned himself 8 years...

Plummer got his team to the playoffs. Plummer dropped from one of the best in the league and moved back into the best in the league.

Carr has not.

1998 - Plummer 2nd year/ 15th points scored 25th points allowed ( 30 teams )
2001 - Plummer 5th year / 20th points scored 22nd points allowed ( 31 teams )

In both of those seasons he was top 10 NFL QB

99 - benched or hurt ( don't remember )
00 - HC changed midstream

Plummer never goes more then 2 seasons without flashing
Carr has 4 straight without anything to show for it

Besides the fact that these two QBs are not the same type of people.

2004 Houston is 15th and 22nd out of 32 teams ( Carr's best season that gets him up into the top 15 out of 32 )

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 09:29 PM
Rob Moore (WR) pro bowl in 1997, Plummer's rookie season, and Adrian Murrell ran for 1042 yards in 1998, Plummer's second season.


Woops.......


I took a shot.....

texan279
08-02-2006, 09:33 PM
Plummer got his team to the playoffs. Plummer dropped from one of the best in the league and moved back into the best in the league.

Carr has not.

1998 - Plummer 2nd year/ 15th points scored 25th points allowed ( 30 teams )
2001 - Plummer 5th year / 20th points scored 22nd points allowed ( 31 teams )

In both of those seasons he was top 10 NFL QB

99 - benched or hurt ( don't remember )
00 - HC changed midstream

Plummer never goes more then 2 seasons without flashing
Carr has 4 straight without anything to show for it

Besides the fact that these two QBs are not the same type of people.

2004 Houston is 15th and 22nd out of 32 teams ( Carr's best season that gets him up into the top 15 out of 32 )

So QB ranking in the league is more important than the actual QB's stats or his performance on the field? You know it could have been a crappy year for QB's the year Plummer was ranked, because those two seasons he was ranked were WORSE than Carr's last two seasons.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 09:39 PM
It's getting harder and harder for you to disguise the bias, thunderkyss.

I am calling you out. Right now. Show me that stats that prove that Carr has sucked, especially in the past two years. Show me the stats that contradict the fact that he threw for 3500 yards in 2004, with more TDs than INTs.

Maybe you dont want to play the stat swap game? I really dont think that that has ever been your gig. Tell me what about him, as a player, makes him so terrible.

I am calling you out. Don't hide.... I won't. Don't stutter.... I won't. Don't back down.... because I will definitely NOT.

It is time for the Carr haters to man up and stop taking the cheap shots. Let's rumble. I have all night.


First tell me what Bias am i trying to hide??

Have you not seen David assume the fetal position??

have you not seen him run into a sack??

have you seen him go through a progression?? even when he has time??

have you ever seen him run out of bounds with the ball..... behind the line of scrimmage??

You tell me who is keeping those stats, and I'll swap some #s with you.

Tell me what you think of Joey Harrington....... would you bring him onto this team?? Tim Couch?? if he was medically fit, would you want him on this team?? Kitna, would you swap him for David Carr??

more TDs than interceptions........ that's a useless stat.... you know why?? every one of the guys I've mentioned are behind Carr in that category....... yet I believe they all threw more TDs period, and didn't take as many sacks... so when I add them up........ my way, they come out ahead.

Don't take that to mean that I don't want David here....... or that I'm bitter about anything that happened in April.....

I think all those guys I've mentioned suck also..... but none of them save Kitna was ever given a better opportunity than Carr.

Carr Bombed
08-02-2006, 09:42 PM
Overall, a great post..... but...

#1, I didn't say I think Kitna has more potential than Carr

I didn't imply that you did, I was just commenting on the QB situation in Detroit, so I talked about Kitna.


Secondly..... if you're one of those guys who thinks Mooch(unemployed Mooch as far as I know) ever had what it takes to be called a good coach, then there isn't anything I can say that will change your mind about Joey Harrington.

You see this is why I don't like threads like this, because the same excuse you made for Harrington can be made for Carr, IMO Mooch has had more success in this league before coaching Harrington, than Capers has. He had a ovrl. record of 60-43 earning 4 playoff berths in 6 seasons. Dom had a 30-34 ovrl coaching record with one year of success when he reached the NFC championship game before comming to Houston. If your going to bring coaching into the equation we have to be fair.


And there is no way I am ever going to believe the Detroit Lions have ever (in that teams entire history) fielded a better team than what we've put on the field in the last 4 years...... I just won't believe it.

This statement has me a little confussed, because in a previous post you said......

but I personally saw a good QB on a bad team when I watched Plummer, Kitna, and Harrington....

Having said that, the Lions did happen to win 4 NFL championships, 3 in a six year span under a very unsung underrated Quarterback by the name of Bobby Layne.

And I'll take a guy that at least throws the ball, and give his team a chance to win........ over a guy who eats it every time.......

I'll take a guy that has shown with time, he has the ability to make ALL the throws and hit open receivers over a guy that has shown with time he can't. I have also never bought into the "his receivers are hurt argument either". We haven't exactly had a steller WR core, until now.

I'm not trying to start a argument here....Again this is why I don't like threads like this, because they don't end. My whole intention was to comment on Joey's game (since I watched every game last season), nothing more, and in my opinion he just doesn't have the mental make up to be successful in this league, he lets the pressure get to him and just has a look on his face like he's constipated or something (couldn't think of another way to describe the look...sorry)

All the questions and doubt on Carr's game will either be confirmed or dismissed soon enough when the season starts, so I really don't care to comment on this issue further.

texan279
08-02-2006, 09:45 PM
First tell me what Bias am i trying to hide??

Have you not seen David assume the fetal position??

have you not seen him run into a sack??

have you seen him go through a progression?? even when he has time??

have you ever seen him run out of bounds with the ball..... behind the line of scrimmage??

Have you ever seen a starting NFL QB NOT do any of these things?

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 09:48 PM
And what did Plummer do in his 3rd and 4th season? In his first 2 seasons, Plummer completed 57% of his passes, threw for 5940 yards, 32 TD's and 35 INT's with a QB rating of 74.3 and the Card's went 13-19. In his 3rd and 4th season, he completed 55% of his passes, threw for 5057 yards, 22 TD's and 45 INT's with a QB rating of 59.2 and the Card's went 9-23. So after playing decent football his first two years, Plummer's play declined dramatically, so he gets a free pass until year six. Now, carr's first two seasons he completed 54% of his passes, threw for 4605 yards, 18 TD's and 28 INT's for a rating of 65 and the Texans went 9-23. In Carr's 3rd and 4th season, he completed 60% of his passes, threw for 6019 yards, 30 TD's and 25 INT's for a rating of 80.3 and the Texans went 9-23. So Plummer's play declines from seasons one and two to seasons 3 and 4 that allows him a free pass to year six while Carr's play improves from seasons one and two to seasons three and four and that means that Carr doesn't get a pass until season six? If this is Plummer "earing six years" as TK put it, then Carr has earned himself 8 years...


Look, if you think this means that David is/was a better QB than Plummer, then you have to admit to me, right here, right now, that Aaron Brooks is a better QB than Carr.

texan279
08-02-2006, 09:50 PM
Look, if you think this means that David is/was a better QB than Plummer, then you have to admit to me, right here, right now, that Aaron Brooks is a better QB than Carr.

Never said Carr was better than Plummer, just saying if Plummer "earns 6 years" like you said, than Carr deserves at least 6 as well, compare both of their 3rd and 4th seasons, that is why I highlighted them...Carr's first 2 seasons were BETTER than Plummers 3rd and 4th seasons and Carr 's play improved in season 3 and 4 compared to Plummer's play declining in his 3rd and 4th season...I am off to work, be back in about 30 to continue the discussion...

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 09:58 PM
I didn't imply that you did, I was just commenting on the QB situation in Detroit, so I talked about Kitna.

I'll take the blame on that one..... it should be pretty obvious by now, I don't know who I'm arguing with, over what, or what my point is.




You see this is why I don't like threads like this, because the same excuse you made for Harrington can be made for Carr, IMO Mooch has had more success in this league before coaching Harrington, than Capers has. He had a ovrl. record of 60-43 earning 4 playoff berths in 6 seasons. Dom had a 30-34 ovrl coaching record with one year of success when he reached the NFC championship game before comming to Houston. If your going to bring coaching into the equation we have to be fair.


Good points, but keep in mind, Capers did it with two expansion teams, and Mooch was handed one of the better teams of the decade.


This statement has me a little confussed, because in a previous post you said......
blah.......blah.......blah.....


Having said that, the Lions did happen to win 4 NFL championships, 3 in a six year span under a very unsung underrated Quarterback by the name of Bobby Layne.

before my time....... my point though........ the lions have sucked for a long long time.

I'll take a guy that has shown with time, he has the ability to make ALL the throws and hit open receivers over a guy that has shown with time he can't. I have also never bought into the "his receivers are hurt argument either". We haven't exactly had a steller WR core, until now.

when you put it that way..... yeah

I'm not trying to start a argument here....Again this is why I don't like threads like this, because they don't end. My whole intention was to comment on Joey's game (since I watched every game last season), nothing more, and in my opinion he just doesn't have the mental make up to be successful in this league, he lets the pressure get to him and just has a look on his face like he's constipated or something (couldn't think of another way to describe the look...sorry)

Okay..... if this was a lions/dolphins board, I'd argue the point.... but since you don't want to go into this, and I don't want to go into this....

All the questions and doubt on Carr's game will either be confirmed or dismissed soon enough when the season starts, so I really don't care to comment on this issue further.

True Dat....... True Dat.......

Peace bro..

Carr Bombed
08-02-2006, 10:03 PM
no problem, I just can't wait till the day when we don't have to talk about the Oline or QB position......

peace

TexansLucky13
08-02-2006, 10:10 PM
Thunderkyss, 80% of the stuff you just mentioned is due to the fact that the O-line was worthless in past years. What are you trying to do here? Prove that Carr has had a bad O-line? Newsflash pal, the falty O-line is being addressed.

What do you call Carrs 2004 season stats? A fluke? Luck?? 2004 showed 50 sacks for Carr, which is an average season stat for him considering he has been brought down 208 times. He only lost two fumbles. The O-line was failing then, but he managed to pull off 3500+ yards.

Sure, David makes bad choices. Heck, I will admit that he causes a lot of his sacks.... there is no denying that. But that doesn't give the O-line an excuse. Once they can do their job, he can do his. I wonder if Peyton could brush 4,000+ yards and 30+ TDs if he had the O-line that David had to deal with? Not a chance.

I think you downsize the O-line situation and add drama by making Carr appear to be the reason for 90% of his sacks. Oh, you are right.... Carr should be able to take a 2 step drop and bullet it for a 6 yard gain every play. Silly me.

Once again, I pose my point. You blame Carr for his sacks. I blame him for some, but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.

Carr came into this league on a team who got him sacked. I only wonder what he could have done with the Lions, especially if they had managed to acquire someone like AJ after his rookie year.

The Pencil Neck
08-02-2006, 10:15 PM
I want to start a "Do you believe in Carr" poll but I don't want to get flamed for it. I want to see what percentage of you believe Carr can lead the Texans to the playoffs.


Been done a few times in just the last month or two. In general, most of us are pro-Carr.

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 10:16 PM
Never said Carr was better than Plummer, just saying if Plummer "earns 6 years" like you said, than Carr deserves at least 6 as well, compare both of their 3rd and 4th seasons, that is why I highlighted them...Carr's first 2 seasons were BETTER than Plummers 3rd and 4th seasons and Carr 's play improved in season 3 and 4 compared to Plummer's play declining in his 3rd and 4th season...I am off to work, be back in about 30 to continue the discussion...

I'm not an Arizona Cardinals fan..... never liked the team...... never liked the colors...... never liked the logo..... But there was a time, when if I couldn't catch the Cowboys, or the Saints on TV, I'd try to get the Arizona game, just to see what Jake would do... he was exciting to watch.... you never knew when he was going to lead his team to a 4th quarter comeback.

If I were not a Houston Texans fan(that's my story, and I'm sticking to it) I doubt seriously that I'd tune in for a game.

If I were playing fantasy football back then, and I had to choose between starting Carr, or starting plummer, then maybe those stats would be important....... maybe.

Hulk75
08-02-2006, 10:17 PM
Yea, pretty funny that the year he is sacked the least, he has his best year.

Why would that be?

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 10:26 PM
So QB ranking in the league is more important than the actual QB's stats or his performance on the field? You know it could have been a crappy year for QB's the year Plummer was ranked, because those two seasons he was ranked were WORSE than Carr's last two seasons.

The NFL ranking is based on his stats and production on the field. It's important to use the rankings because it shows how the QB performed against his peers and avoids comparisons like Sonny Jurgenson's 1961 season to Carr's 2004 season. While Jurgenson threw 24 INTs that year and passed for the same amount yards it is not comparable in that sense. Jurgenson was at the top of the NFL, while Carr was still struggling to put together two wins in a row.

Passer ratings of 80 are not that hot when the best are 90-100+ and the same for completion percentages and all the other stats. It's their relation to their peers that matters the most.

The question on earned or given comes into play when you have to ask is this guy the best that can play the position at the given time? So if 1998 was a weak year for QBs, Plummer would be amongst the the best that the Cardinals could have started.

That's why Kitna is not starting for the Bengals. That's why Harrington is not starting for the Lions. ( to be fair Kitna had some kinda case to be made, but his team was 2-14 going 8-8 when they drafted Carson Palmer. He showed some life in the 8-8 season before Palmer took the starting job, but I guess it was just not enough to justify the 8-8 finish. Kitna was a top 10 NFL QB when they replaced him with Carson Palmer. Who's to 2nd guess now though because Palmer got them to the playoffs last year )

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 10:29 PM
Thunderkyss, 80% of the stuff you just mentioned is due to the fact that the O-line was worthless in past years. What are you trying to do here? Prove that Carr has had a bad O-line? Newsflash pal, the falty O-line is being addressed.


As it stands right now, we have done the same thing Capers and co... have done...... shuffled around the starting talent, and add one old Vet to the mix.

Basically that means we are going to start that same bunch of wortless guys on the O-line.


What do you call Carrs 2004 season stats? A fluke? Luck?? 2004 showed 50 sacks for Carr, which is an average season stat for him considering he has been brought down 208 times. He only lost two fumbles. The O-line was failing then, but he managed to pull off 3500+ yards.


so what are you saying that proves??

that he didn't suck last year?? that we changed coaches between 2004 & 2005??



Sure, David makes bad choices. Heck, I will admit that he causes a lot of his sacks.... there is no denying that. But that doesn't give the O-line an excuse. Once they can do their job, he can do his.

The problem, is that no one but Kubiak is giving the O-Line a break.... what was wrong with Carr last year?? The O-Line and the coaches......

what was wrong with the O-line last year?? they just suck.

kind of a double standard to me....


I wonder if Peyton could brush 4,000+ yards and 30+ TDs if he had the O-line that David had to deal with? Not a chance.

you'd be surprised........ Reggie Wayne wasn't always Reggie Wayne....


I think you downsize the O-line situation and add drama by making Carr appear to be the reason for 90% of his sacks. Oh, you are right.... Carr should be able to take a 2 step drop and bullet it for a 6 yard gain every play. Silly me.


I don't know how many sacks really should be accounted to Carr.... 10, 20, more?? I don't know. But I know I'd hate to be an OLineman with Carr back there....

and since you brought up a 2 step drop...... how do you take a sack, when you call a 1 step/3 step drop?? when your backfoot is planted, you throw the ball..... you don't try to read coverage, you throw the ball. It's a gamble, but that's the whole idea behind it. throw the ball.

Once again, I pose my point. You blame Carr for his sacks. I blame him for some, but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.


well we're going into 2006 with a dismal Offensive line, but I bet you're all cheery about that.



Carr came into this league on a team who got him sacked. I only wonder what he could have done with the Lions, especially if they had managed to acquire someone like AJ after his rookie year.

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 10:31 PM
Having said that, the Lions did happen to win 4 NFL championships, 3 in a six year span under a very unsung underrated Quarterback by the name of Bobby Layne.

Offsides!

Bobby Layne is not unsung or underrated.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=126

The Pencil Neck
08-02-2006, 10:34 PM
true...... neither had proven anything by year 4...... and that's why I said when you watch him play.. Arizona sucked...... Jake showed promise..... the Texans sucked... Carr showed... potential??


The thing about Jake was his 2nd year (iirc), even though it wasn't that good statistically, the Cards did make it to the playoffs and get their first post-season win in a zillion years.

His big problem has been trying to put the team on his shoulders and carry them when he didn't need to and then throw interceptions at the wrong times. In his second season, he was being called the 2nd coming of Elway... and I think he kinda coasted after that and things fell apart.

EDIT: OK. I was doing this from memory and I thought he took them to the playoffs in his 2ndyear, not his third. My bad.
2nd EDIT: Or was it his 2nd year...

thunderkyss
08-02-2006, 10:36 PM
Yea, pretty funny that the year he is sacked the least, he has his best year.

Why would that be?

hmm....... he was sacked 15 times in 2003..... his best yardage year was 2004, when he was sacked 49 times......

The Patriots won the Superbowl in 2001 with a first year starter, an OLine that gave up 46 sacks, a nobody RB, and two nobody(at the time) recievers...

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 10:42 PM
EDIT: OK. I was doing this from memory and I thought he took them to the playoffs in his 2ndyear, not his third. My bad.
2nd EDIT: Or was it his 2nd year...

2nd year. Beat the Cowboys in the playoffs. Lost to the Vikings next round.
That was the 98 Vikings year.

tsip
08-02-2006, 10:45 PM
"but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.'

As has been mentioned by many posters, Carr had a good 1st half in 2004, lousy 2nd half-continuing into 2005 (string of 25 games). Carr had more int's than TD's the 2nd half and ended the season with that 6 sack performance against the Browns (worse team in the league that year). We won 7 games (4 against the Jags and Titans) and only beat 1 winning team that year--our best year to date.

...one other point--Carr's accuracy. I think this figure is enhanced by the fact that most of Carr's throws are 'short' passes, especially to DD. David is not known for taking chances throwing the ball down field.

TexansLucky13
08-02-2006, 10:51 PM
Carr had a good 1st half in 2004, lousy 2nd half-continuing into 2005 (string of 25 games).

And what does that mean? He put up 3500+ yards with only half a season of good performance? Jeez, Carr is more of a stud than I thought! Come on 2006 season!

Carr Bombed
08-02-2006, 10:52 PM
Offsides!

Bobby Layne is not unsung or underrated.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=126

Pulling up a story doesn't mean he isn't underated, most of the people on this board probably don't know anything about him or heard his name before.

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 10:52 PM
"but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.'

As has been mentioned by many posters, Carr had a good 1st half in 2004, lousy 2nd half-continuing into 2005 (string of 25 games). Carr had more int's than TD's the 2nd half and ended the season with that 6 sack performance against the Browns (worse team in the league that year). We won 7 games (4 against the Jags and Titans) and only beat 1 winning team that year--our best year to date.

After reading that... I would fire every one of them. O mercy. And to think I would be so shameless with Lions' fans.

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 10:54 PM
Pulling up a story doesn't mean he isn't underated, most of the people on this board probably don't know anything about him or heard his name before.

NO WAY! He's almost a Texas legend. Well he is a Texas legend... just not an official one.

and if that is so... good for bringing him up.

texan279
08-02-2006, 10:57 PM
The NFL ranking is based on his stats and production on the field. It's important to use the rankings because it shows how the QB performed against his peers and avoids comparisons like Sonny Jurgenson's 1961 season to Carr's 2004 season. While Jurgenson threw 24 INTs that year and passed for the same amount yards it is not comparable in that sense. Jurgenson was at the top of the NFL, while Carr was still struggling to put together two wins in a row.

Passer ratings of 80 are not that hot when the best are 90-100+ and the same for completion percentages and all the other stats. It's their relation to their peers that matters the most.

The question on earned or given comes into play when you have to ask is this guy the best that can play the position at the given time? So if 1998 was a weak year for QBs, Plummer would be amongst the the best that the Cardinals could have started.

That's why Kitna is not starting for the Bengals. That's why Harrington is not starting for the Lions. ( to be fair Kitna had some kinda case to be made, but his team was 2-14 going 8-8 when they drafted Carson Palmer. He showed some life in the 8-8 season before Palmer took the starting job, but I guess it was just not enough to justify the 8-8 finish. Kitna was a top 10 NFL QB when they replaced him with Carson Palmer. Who's to 2nd guess now though because Palmer got them to the playoffs last year )

This kind of hits on the point I am trying to make. Plummer may have been "ranked" that season, but the other QB's in the league might not have been so great. Plummer put up 2 medicore seasons, then 2 horrible seasons, Carr's first two seasons weren't good at all but he improved in seasons 3 and 4.

Carr Bombed
08-02-2006, 11:00 PM
NO WAY! He's almost a Texas legend. Well he is a Texas legend... just not an official one.

and if that is so... good for bringing him up.

He is a Texas legend, nationwide he is a footnote in NFL history

infantrycak
08-02-2006, 11:01 PM
Because Plummer was ranked in the top 5 QBs in his second season on 9-7 season and then again top 10 on a 7-9 season. That earns him at least some reason to be kept.

Nice anti-logic carried over from your other thread. Plummer was top 5 in 1998 (and top 10 in 2001) in passing attempts and completions not because of any great skill as would be displayed by a high completion percentage or ypa but because of a freakishly high number of passes--i.e. a coaching decision having zilch, nada to do with him.

texan279
08-02-2006, 11:03 PM
Nice anti-logic carried over from your other thread. Plummer was top 5 in 1998 (and top 10 in 2001) in passing attempts and completions not because of any great skill as would be displayed by a high completion percentage or ypa but because of a freakishly high number of passes--i.e. a coaching decision having zilch, nada to do with him.

To add to cak's post...here are Plummer's top 10 rankings since his rookie season...


Seasons among the league's top 10
Pass attempts: 1998-3, 2001-9, 2002-8, 2004-6
Completions: 1998-3, 2001-10, 2004-8
Passing yards: 1998-4, 2001-8, 2004-4
Passing TDs: 2004-7t (with the Broncos)
Adjusted yards per pass: 2001-10, 2003-6, 2005-6

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 11:06 PM
This kind of hits on the point I am trying to make. Plummer may have been "ranked" that season, but the other QB's in the league might not have been so great. Plummer put up 2 medicore seasons, then 2 horrible seasons, Carr's first two seasons weren't good at all but he improved in seasons 3 and 4.

The thing is Plummer did not put up 2 mediocre seasons. He put up 1 good season, two off, 1 good season. Carr has rookie break, 1 off, 1 mediocre, and then 1 off. Nothing good. You can call 2004 good, but it was mediocre numbers in a 7-9 season where otheres have put up good numbers in 7-9 or worse seasons.

texan279
08-02-2006, 11:10 PM
The thing is Plummer did not put up 2 mediocre seasons. He put up 1 good season, two off, 1 good season. Carr has rookie break, 1 off, 1 mediocre, and then 1 off. Nothing good. You can call 2004 good, but it was mediocre numbers in a 7-9 season where otheres have put up good numbers in 7-9 or worse seasons.

Carr showed improved from season two to three and maintained that improvement in season four. Plummer's play digressed from season two to season three and four. Plummer never really did anything outstanding until he went to Denver. I don't care where Plummer was ranked comared to other QB's. What we were originally disussing got thrown off track. My original point is this. TK said Plummer "earned a pass to year six" and you agreed, because of his play, and going by this logic would mean Carr would get a pass to at least year 6 if a guy whose play digresses after season two gets a "pass" to year 6 while Carr improved after season two.

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 11:12 PM
Nice anti-logic carried over from your other thread. Plummer was top 5 in 1998 (and top 10 in 2001) in passing attempts and completions not because of any great skill as would be displayed by a high completion percentage or ypa but because of a freakishly high number of passes--i.e. a coaching decision having zilch, nada to do with him.

Sure. And then next you are going to say the short pass and 60% completion rate is great with record setting fumbles and sacks and 80 passer rating when the best are at 80-100.

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 11:18 PM
My point is this, Carr showed improved from season two to three and maintained that improvement in season four. Plummer's play digressed from season two to season three and four. Plummer never really did anything outstanding until he went to Denver.

His rookie and first full starter season he was commanding comeback play. His team was in the playoffs while his defense was never ranked that high. He did not a lot of support around him. His coach was Caper's mentor.

Carr's improvements never gloss over anyone else. How did he maintain improvement from 3 to 4?

TK said Plummer "earned a pass to year six" and you agreed, because of his play, and going by this logic would mean Carr would get a pass to at least year 6 if a guy whose play digresses after season two gets a "pass" to year 6 while Carr improved after season two.

His play never shot above anyone. He digressed from 3 to 4 when his 1st and 2nd where not all that hot to begin with.

Plummer can earn it just on the playoff birth and 4th quarter comebacks without the stats.

TK_Gamer
08-02-2006, 11:18 PM
Well........

we haven't done anything this year, that we haven't done in past years, as far as putting people on the Offensive line. If our starters are going to be Wand, Pitts, Flanagan, McKinney, Wiegart, there is only one guy not picked by Capers..... & drafting Spencer & Winston in the third, is basically the same place we've always drafted Linemen...... save Pearce & Hogdon.

So....... with your thinking, David Carr shouldn't feel anybetter about this offensive line, than he has in the past.

no, he probably feels slightly better with flanigan in the middle, and probably a wait and see, hold my breath attitude waiting to see who will start at LT. but if the coaching/scheme stays even semi consistent, and the sacks go down to 2 or 3 per game instead of 5 or 6, he may gain enough confidence to let his natural talents take over.

tsip
08-02-2006, 11:20 PM
And what does that mean? He put up 3500+ yards with only half a season of good performance? Jeez, Carr is more of a stud than I thought! Come on 2006 season!

It means that the team needs consistency from the QB position--scoring a 1000 pts the first half and 0 the second half is not going to get you to the playoffs. Sure, those kind of #'s look good over the course of the year, but it also means we went from a winning team (4-3) to a losing one (3-6). We do want to win, right?

infantrycak
08-02-2006, 11:26 PM
Sure. And then next you are going to say the short pass and 60% completion rate is great with record setting fumbles and sacks and 80 passer rating when the best are at 80-100.

No I am not going to say anything Carr did was great--just that you look like exactly what you are--someone making absurd statements to prove a point like trying to assert being ranked top 3 in passing attempts/completions means something if it doesn't result in more efficient play.

PS--y'all can short pass BS about Carr all you want but Plummer's ypa were worse over the 1st 4 years than Carr's.

Record setting fumbles?--talk to Culpepper.

texan279
08-02-2006, 11:26 PM
His rookie and first full starter season he was commanding comeback play. His team was in the playoffs while his defense was never ranked that high. He did not a lot of support around him. His coach was Caper's mentor.

Carr's improvements never gloss over anyone else. How did he maintain improvement from 3 to 4?

He maintained improvement by keeping a completion percentage of 60% or more and throwing more TD's than INT's, that is just my opinion. And Carr has not had a lot of support, if any, around him in the last 4 seasons and our defense has been ranked dead last the last couple of seasons.

texan279
08-02-2006, 11:30 PM
His rookie and first full starter season he was commanding comeback play. His team was in the playoffs while his defense was never ranked that high. He did not a lot of support around him. His coach was Caper's mentor.

Carr's improvements never gloss over anyone else. How did he maintain improvement from 3 to 4?



His play never shot above anyone. He digressed from 3 to 4 when his 1st and 2nd where not all that hot to begin with.

Plummer can earn it just on the playoff birth and 4th quarter comebacks without the stats.

Plummer didn't earn that playoff spot all by himself and as far as the comebacks, he had to be throwing to someone or handing the ball off to someone unless he ran the ball himself and threw it to himself every play. It irks me when people act as if QB's literally carry the entire team on their back or are supposed to.

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 11:37 PM
Plummer didn't earn that playoff spot all by himself and as far as the comebacks, he had to be throwing to someone or handing the ball off to someone unless he ran the ball himself and threw it to himself every play. It irks me when people act as if QB's literally carry the entire team on their back or are supposed to.

That's true... but then no one does it by themself. He held up his role and the cast around him wasn't that great. He stuck out on those teams.

texan279
08-02-2006, 11:39 PM
That's true... but then no one does it by themself. He held up his role and the cast around him wasn't that great. He stuck out on those teams.

And like I said earlier, Carr in the last 4 seasons has had just as weak if not a weaker cast than Plummer had around him.

TwinSisters
08-02-2006, 11:55 PM
No I am not going to say anything Carr did was great--just that you look like exactly what you are--someone making absurd statements to prove a point like trying to assert being ranked top 3 in passing attempts/completions means something if it doesn't result in more efficient play.

PS--y'all can short pass BS about Carr all you want but Plummer's ypa were worse over the 1st 4 years than Carr's.

Record setting fumbles?--talk to Culpepper.

There is nothing absurd about it. I can just tell you that Plummer was at the top of the league in 1998. But then there is nothing much else to talk about. Carr wasn't moving the ball to win. Plummer did.

Let's talk to Culpepper. He didn't make it to the cover of Madden because everyone thought his defense was stellar or his coach was the brightest guy around. His highs are high and his lows were not all that bad. 3 Pro Bowls can go a long way to offsetting fumbles and ints.
---
http://www.opengroup.com/sports/Jake_Plummer.shtml

That's what earned him the spot.

texan279
08-03-2006, 12:04 AM
There is nothing absurd about it. I can just tell you that Plummer was at the top of the league in 1998. But then there is nothing much else to talk about. Carr wasn't moving the ball to win. Plummer did.

Let's talk to Culpepper. He didn't make it to the cover of Madden because everyone thought his defense was stellar or his coach was the brightest guy around. His highs are high and his lows were not all that bad. 3 Pro Bowls can go a long way to offsetting fumbles and ints.
---
http://www.opengroup.com/sports/Jake_Plummer.shtml

That's what earned him the spot.

Plummer was not at the top of the league in 98, he was #3 in pass attempts, #3 in completions, and #4 in passing yards, that doesn't make him a top tier QB. Steve Young, Dan Marino, Randall Cunningham, and Brett Favre were at the top of the league as far as QB's go in 1998. And I don't think making the cover of Madden or three pro bowls offset fumbles or INT's, being on the cover of Madden and making the pro bowl are personal accomplishments while fumbles and INT's affect the team.

TwinSisters
08-03-2006, 12:13 AM
And like I said earlier, Carr in the last 4 seasons has had just as weak if not a weaker cast than Plummer had around him.

eh maybe, maybe not. He had a Pro Bowl WRer, his running game was ok. His defense was doing better then his offense at times. Most of those things will come out in the wash after this year though I suppose.

David Boston, Moore, Sanders is a big upgrade over Bradford, Gaffney, Johnson?
Shipp, Pittman over Davis?
The offensive line is going to get a hammer of the head in Carr's favour.

TwinSisters
08-03-2006, 12:28 AM
Plummer was not at the top of the league in 98, he was #3 in pass attempts, #3 in completions, and #4 in passing yards, that doesn't make him a top tier QB. Steve Young, Dan Marino, Randall Cunningham, and Brett Favre were at the top of the league as far as QB's go in 1998. And I don't think making the cover of Madden or three pro bowls offset fumbles or INT's, being on the cover of Madden and making the pro bowl are personal accomplishments while fumbles and INT's affect the team.

OKAY so winning a playoff game in Green Bay in the dead of winter will. Pro Bowls are awarded to the better QBs ( not just fan input either ).

1998 Plummer is not a top tier QB?.... Marino was about out by 1998.
Young, Farve, Aikman was hurt, Cunnigham ( in line of 4 QBs ), Elway won it all. Chris Chandler. Testeverde. Plummer was on the level with these guys, if not a bit above or below.

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 12:30 AM
Carr showed improved from season two to three and maintained that improvement in season four. Plummer's play digressed from season two to season three and four. Plummer never really did anything outstanding until he went to Denver. I don't care where Plummer was ranked comared to other QB's. What we were originally disussing got thrown off track. My original point is this. TK said Plummer "earned a pass to year six" and you agreed, because of his play, and going by this logic would mean Carr would get a pass to at least year 6 if a guy whose play digresses after season two gets a "pass" to year 6 while Carr improved after season two.

My logic was that watching him play, he played better than Carr. His stats didn't show it..... I didn't know if they did or didn't... he was on a bad team, I don't expect his stats to show anything special. I know from Watching him, he was special....... he had many fans, he was on a loosing team, but still showing up on sportscenter highlight reels..... If Tom Jackson hadn't started his "Jacked Up" segment, Carr wouldn't stand a chance of getting on Sports Center.

Jake didn't look like a rookie his 4th year. regardless what the stats say, he looked like a Good QB on a bad team..... not an avg QB on a bad team.

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 12:38 AM
Plummer was not at the top of the league in 98, he was #3 in pass attempts, #3 in completions, and #4 in passing yards, that doesn't make him a top tier QB. Steve Young, Dan Marino, Randall Cunningham, and Brett Favre were at the top of the league as far as QB's go in 1998. And I don't think making the cover of Madden or three pro bowls offset fumbles or INT's, being on the cover of Madden and making the pro bowl are personal accomplishments while fumbles and INT's affect the team.

through all the extra fumbles, and Ints these guys aquired, over the same time period, they threw more touchdowns, and their teams won more games........

I think that offsets pretty well. Who cares how effiecient you are, if you can't get in the red zone...... who cares if you go three and out after three completions?? & What difference does it make, if you throw an INT that is returned for a touchdown, or take a sack, and have to punt from your own endzone?? When you're giving them the ball on your 40, and your defense can't stop anyone??

texan279
08-03-2006, 12:39 AM
OKAY so winning a playoff game in Green Bay in the dead of winter will. Pro Bowls are awarded to the better QBs ( not just fan input either ).

1998 Plummer is not a top tier QB?.... Marino was about out by 1998.
Young, Farve, Aikman was hurt, Cunnigham ( in line of 4 QBs ), Elway won it all. Chris Chandler. Testeverde. Plummer was on the level with these guys, if not a bit above or below.

Has nothing to do with winning a playoff game. Favre led the league in passing yards, completions, and was 3rd in the NFL in passing TD's all in 98. Young was 4th in completions, 2nd in passing yards, and 1st in passing TD's in 98. Cunningham was 5th in passing yards, 2nd in passing TD's, and 2nd in yards per pass. Plummer was 3rd in completions, 4th in passing yards, and 3rd in pass attempts. You cannot honestly think Plummer was/is above the level of Young, Favre, Cunningham, or Aikman.

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 12:40 AM
The offensive line is going to get a hammer of the head in Carr's favour.

Only because Carr is taking sacks, and Jake was making plays....

texan279
08-03-2006, 12:41 AM
My logic was that watching him play, he played better than Carr. His stats didn't show it..... I didn't know if they did or didn't... he was on a bad team, I don't expect his stats to show anything special. I know from Watching him, he was special....... he had many fans, he was on a loosing team, but still showing up on sportscenter highlight reels..... If Tom Jackson hadn't started his "Jacked Up" segment, Carr wouldn't stand a chance of getting on Sports Center.

Jake didn't look like a rookie his 4th year. regardless what the stats say, he looked like a Good QB on a bad team..... not an avg QB on a bad team.

The guy only threw 13 TD's and threw 21 INT's in his 4th season, are you saying the INT's were not his fault?

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 12:47 AM
Has nothing to do with winning a playoff game. Favre led the league in passing yards, completions, and was 3rd in the NFL in passing TD's all in 98. Young was 4th in completions, 2nd in passing yards, and 1st in passing TD's in 98. Cunningham was 5th in passing yards, 2nd in passing TD's, and 2nd in yards per pass. Plummer was 3rd in completions, 4th in passing yards, and 3rd in pass attempts. You cannot honestly think Plummer was/is above the level of Young, Favre, Cunningham, or Aikman.

You just said he was 4th in passing yards.... right behind Bret Favre..... how can they be playing at different levels?? if they were in the top ten, they're playing at a less than half the other QBs in the league...... how many QBs played in 98 anyway?? 50??

3rd in completions.... only two guys had better completion percentage. You're looking at some stat sheet/sheets with these guys names on it, and Jake's name is right there along side them..... in passing yards, completions, and pass attempts....... uh... it think that puts him at their level....... and unless you are looking at the bottom of the list, I think that puts him at the top of the list.

in 1998........ I think you've made our point...... Jake= Good QB on bad team..... David=avg QB on a bad team........


thanks, I'm going to bed.........

texan279
08-03-2006, 12:53 AM
You just said he was 4th in passing yards.... right behind Bret Favre..... how can they be playing at different levels?? if they were in the top ten, they're playing at a less than half the other QBs in the league...... how many QBs played in 98 anyway?? 50??

3rd in completions.... only two guys had better completion percentage. You're looking at some stat sheet/sheets with these guys names on it, and Jake's name is right there along side them..... in passing yards, completions, and pass attempts....... uh... it think that puts him at their level....... and unless you are looking at the bottom of the list, I think that puts him at the top of the list.

in 1998........ I think you've made our point...... Jake= Good QB on bad team..... David=avg QB on a bad team........


thanks, I'm going to bed.........

Of course he is going to be at the top of the league in completions and yards when he throws so much, he was 3rd in the league in attempts, yet you fail to mention that while Plummer may be up there with Favre and the rest in passing yards and completions he only threw 17 TD's that season and threw 20 INT's. Based on this logic if Carr is 3rd in the NFL in 06 in pass attempts and 4th in passing yards yet only throws 15 TD's and throws 20 INT's you have to put him on the level with guys like Favre, Aikman, Young, and Cunningham. And Plummer was not 3rd in completion percentage, but passes completed, there is a difference.

TwinSisters
08-03-2006, 12:56 AM
Has nothing to do with winning a playoff game. You cannot honestly think Plummer was/is above the level of Young, Favre, Cunningham, or Aikman.

In 1998, he's in the top tier. The rest is just Aquaman vs Batman stuff.
Aikman was hurt in 1998, so Plummer could compete with him.

The point being here is that you can find fifty cases to argue that Plummer is a top tier quarterback in his second year. There are none for Carr in all 4 years. That's the basis of saying one has done something on par with his peers and the other has not. The 04 season is still not top ten material.
--

On the Bobby Layne bit. He most certainly is known nationwide. There is not a football junky worth his salt that doesn't know of him. He is the last leader of the Lions, that in itself gets him notice.

As for the common NFL person not knowing him, well that is okay. They most likely don't know Bart Starr, Blanda, Jurgenson, etc. and whole lotta the other old school players either. So it's not like a discredit to Layne by himself.

texan279
08-03-2006, 12:59 AM
In 1998, he's in the top tier. The rest is just Aquaman vs Batman stuff.
Aikman was hurt in 1998, so Plummer could compete with him.

The point being here is that you can find fifty cases to argue that Plummer is a top tier quarterback in his second year. There are none for Carr in all 4 years. That's the basis of saying one has done something on par with his peers and the other has not. The 04 season is still not top ten material.
--

On the Bobby Layne bit. He most certainly is known nationwide. There is not a football junky worth his salt that doesn't know of him. He is the last leader of the Lions, that in itself gets him notice.

As for the common NFL person not knowing him, well that is okay. They most likely don't know Bart Starr, Blanda, Jurgenson, etc. and whole lotta the other old school players either. So it's not like a discredit to Layne by himself.

So if Kubiak calls 450 pass plays this season and Carr leads the league in pass attempts with 450 but throws 17 TD's and 20 INT's you'll consider him a top tier QB? The only reason Plummer was ranked high in those categories is because of the playcalling, and even though he ranked in the top five among attempts and completions, he couldn't crack the top 10 in TD passes, but Plummer HIMSELF threw more INT's with 20 than 24 other teams threw as a team.

GP
08-03-2006, 01:07 AM
I cannot wait until preseason games.

I am so stinking tired of this endless "Carr" debate.

I know I've fed the trolls by even posting THIS reply...but I am just counting the days until we get some actual games to view...and so we can talk real football again and NOT about the 1,000 different angles of David Carr and Jake Plummer and Julius Peppers and Vince Young and Long Hair vs. Short Hair and Stat Breakdowns and etc. etc. etc.

Give me football games or give me death. :hunter:

TwinSisters
08-03-2006, 01:22 AM
So if Kubiak calls 450 pass plays this season and Carr leads the league in pass attempts with 450 but throws 17 TD's and 20 INT's you'll consider him a top tier QB? The only reason Plummer was ranked high in those categories is because of the playcalling, and even though he ranked in the top five among attempts and completions, he couldn't crack the top 10 in TD passes, but Plummer HIMSELF threw more INT's with 20 than 24 other teams threw as a team.

IF Kubiak calls 450 Pass plays Etc etc. AND the Texans are driving the ball to win games and make the playoffs with Carr beating teams with other QBs with better teams THEN I would think about him as a top tier QB.

I actually wouldn't even need that... I would just need to see it.
---
450 pass calls is low nowadays. 500 is closer to the average I think. You can look at the total plays called of various teams in the NFL stats pages. ( although they haven't been working properly lately )
---

Attempts increase with new sets of downs. That means your defense didn't have to go back out on the field after a three and out.

INTs are bad. But if you are winning, INTs are not as bad. INTs are not that bad either, if you are losing and you tried to win. There are junk INTs too. Those that come at the half or at the end of a losing game. It's better to throw it up or force it in the final minutes then to sit on it and lose for sure.

Hulk75
08-03-2006, 07:53 AM
hmm....... he was sacked 15 times in 2003..... his best yardage year was 2004, when he was sacked 49 times......

The Patriots won the Superbowl in 2001 with a first year starter, an OLine that gave up 46 sacks, a nobody RB, and two nobody(at the time) recievers...
HHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMM......... How many games did he NOT play in and how many did he play hurt, In 2003.:crutch:

I swear, thanks for pointing out the obvous.:rolleyes:

And each one of those Coaches on that Patriot team now have Head Coaching jobs and are known as some of the best in their field O or D.

Hulk75
08-03-2006, 08:06 AM
Only because Carr is taking sacks, and Jake was making plays....
Taking sacks?, Thats funny.


I will tell you right now, Carr fits this Offense PERFECTLY, you can bring up the SAME OLD SAME OLD untill the 1st game, But this guy IS going to go off this year so I would with hold some words before the hole gets deeper and you start yelling "Help I am sorry get me out of here" to people around here, cause they will fall on def ears or "eyes"(we do read this not listen).

Jake was let go and Carr is still with his 1st team.

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 08:08 AM
Of course he is going to be at the top of the league in completions and yards when he throws so much, he was 3rd in the league in attempts, yet you fail to mention that while Plummer may be up there with Favre and the rest in passing yards and completions he only threw 17 TD's that season and threw 20 INT's. Based on this logic if Carr is 3rd in the NFL in 06 in pass attempts and 4th in passing yards yet only throws 15 TD's and throws 20 INT's you have to put him on the level with guys like Favre, Aikman, Young, and Cunningham. And Plummer was not 3rd in completion percentage, but passes completed, there is a difference.

I missed that... there is a big difference....

Personally I wouldn't have slotted Jake as a top tier QB in 2000......... But I'd definitely have him on the list of up and commers....

Today, I'd have Eli Manning, Chris Simms, Byron Leftwich and Carson Palmer on that list.

I put David Carr on the same list as I'd put Joey Harrington, Aaron Brooks, Charlie Batch, & Tim Couch....... to me, that's not a bad list to be on. Guys who have proven they can play, but have yet to experience success, most likely due to poor coaching......... with the exception of Aaron Brooks, because he has had success, but probably the worst coaching of all.....


In 1998.... the Up & Comers would have been Jake, Mcnair, flutie, & Peyton Manning.

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 08:21 AM
Taking sacks?, Thats funny.


I will tell you right now, Carr fits this Offense PERFECTLY, you can bring up the SAME OLD SAME OLD untill the 1st game, But this guy IS going to go off this year so I would with hold some words before the hole gets deeper and you start yelling "Help I am sorry get me out of here" to people around here, cause they will fall on def ears or "eyes"(we do read this not listen).

Jake was let go and Carr is still with his 1st team.

hey....... I'm with you..... I'm very optomistic about what Carr will do next year... I'm just saying he sucked last year. We haven't done anything to our offensive line, that we haven't done before, and overall, we haven't had any major overall of the offensive talent..... we've got a new tight end........ just like years before, we have the same(more or less) offensive line, a fullback who personally I have no reason to believe is anybetter than the guy we let go, and the only real addition in Eric Moulds...... so technically, this is still Caper's team......... and talent wasn't the problem. & Since the defense had about as much, or less turnover as we did on offense, we were all right in having high expectations for our team(play-offs) in '05.

But Carr sucked....... just as badly as Wade, T.J, Babin, Buchannon(that may be pushing it), Gaffney, etc......

& I don't get what you are saying about David's '03 season...... are you saying he would have taken 34 more sacks that year, if he didn't play hurt, or played in those 5 more games?? or are you saying he would have thrown for another 1500 yards in those 5 games??

I'd be ecstatic if David had 5 300 yard games in a single season.....
:tease:

KKHouston
08-03-2006, 09:34 AM
OKAY so winning a playoff game in Green Bay in the dead of winter will. Pro Bowls are awarded to the better QBs ( not just fan input either ).

1998 Plummer is not a top tier QB?.... Marino was about out by 1998.
Young, Farve, Aikman was hurt, Cunnigham ( in line of 4 QBs ), Elway won it all. Chris Chandler. Testeverde. Plummer was on the level with these guys, if not a bit above or below.

That's absurd. Plummer is no where near the level of QB Favre, Elway, Young, or Marino, and NEVER will be. Statistics are just that... statistics. In no way, shape, or form, do they indicate the leadership abilities of a QB. They simply indicate personal accomplishments. If Plummer was the shiznit, why did Arizona let him go? If they saw anything in his leadership abilities, why not work with him? They didn't see it.

Kubiak's system (or course, Shanahan's too) had a major influence on his game. He stopped making as many dumb mistakes. He started letting his teammates around him play ball. Yes, in the playoffs last year, he imploded. But that's a testament to his character, not his ability.

Carr hasn't blown up. He has both - ability AND character, which he has proven with his attitude over and over.

This thread isn't about Plummer, Joey Harrington, Kitna, or anyone but Carr. In Kubiak's plan, he will have the tools needed to succeed, along with the understanding of what he is to, and when to do it. If he fails, then we know. But if he succeeds, then good for us. Why would you want this guy to fail? So many armchair COACHES here... aren't we supposed to be fans?

U4ikrob
08-03-2006, 11:04 AM
"but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.'

As has been mentioned by many posters, Carr had a good 1st half in 2004, lousy 2nd half-continuing into 2005 (string of 25 games). Carr had more int's than TD's the 2nd half and ended the season with that 6 sack performance against the Browns (worse team in the league that year). We won 7 games (4 against the Jags and Titans) and only beat 1 winning team that year--our best year to date.


Out of curiousity where was our defense during those 3 seasons? 03 -05?? The defense cost the team quite a few games with their inability to stop anyone from scoring. It's hard to win shootouts when your spending 50% your time as a qb running from pressure - another 40% of your play callsare off-tackle runs & rb pitches and your only audibles are run left or right. DC's playcallign hands were tied for a majority of his QB career and has been documented and quoted in interviews. In general this is my problem with posts like this and TK's posts - the putting of all the wins/losses for the team on DC's shoulders as the main reason for the loss. Granted the man could improve in places, but alot of players could have and should have done the same.

To TK - I along with several posters saw the 05 season coming back in TC and I posted more than one scathing post back during TC last year after I went to Dallas and watched them play. The TEAM was horrible and looked lethargic, like they were goign thru the motions nad were giving up on the staff. Then Palmer gets let go and they promote the O-line coach who's gotten Carr sacked a league record amount of times and you and others think DC's play should have been better? He should have tried harder? I addressed most of these points in earlier posts so wont go on further, but this arguement is truely an enigma to me as it was obvious to alot of people there were things wrong with the team in the last half of 04 into the 05 season and a majority of those problems werent with the fricking Starting QB.

Note on the 04 season - A majority of the oline problems were resolved and the team was developing a rhythm an dthen in the middle of the season Palmer and crew decided to change the O-line blocking scheme again and then all of sudden there were more sacks. My eyes tell me thats not a DC problem, but a lack of continuity problem from your coaches and players quit trying. The defense is especially suspect during that time as there was more than one game that got way out of hand because the defense couldnt keep a barnyard animal out of the endzone much less any nfl team.

I watched David play myself at practice, in TC, at games & afterwards since he's been here - I can easily provide examples of his work ethics[staying late] and quotes of him and Andre workign on the side to develop rhythm.

...one other point--Carr's accuracy. I think this figure is enhanced by the fact that most of Carr's throws are 'short' passes, especially to DD. David is not known for taking chances throwing the ball down field.

David is not known for taking chances?? or his OC & HC who were calling the plays arent known for it? Capers was always a conservative run first coach and it showed more than once in his playcalls and his conservative play at the end of alot of games we lost because he quit being aggressive on the Offense and went to his often quotable "Play it close to the end" style and ended up on the losing end a majority of the time because the Defense couldnt stop anyoen from scoring.

I know the DC from College who lit up passing records and had no problem throwing the damn ball, running boots and getting away from sacks, yet you guys seem to put all the onus on him for making bad calls liek he's shown no promise at all - no stats and has made nothing of his time here. Granted the man makes a few mistakes here and there, but I think a large majority of the playcalling wins/losses issues have to do with the "Predictable" playcalling of Palmer, Capers and Pendry and there reluctance to give any leeway in the playcalling to DC. It should be a very telling sign to anyone who's paid attention to the playcalling for the last 4 years - there wasnt much the coaches were doing right as teams often stacked 8 in the box and the losses kept coming. Players see that and quit believing, quit trying as hard. Football certainly has a motivation factor to it that has to be accounted for. My memory recalls more than once we were ahead in games over the last 4 years when Dom and the OC would pull back the reigns on the offense and we went to 3 runs and a punt. David was told to take a sack, not to loose the football and a majority of the time not to run with the ball and risk a fumble. Dom was always the conservative type and didnt care much for Carr's scrambling. Just listen to David's recent interviews on the new playcalling and rolling out and you can hear all you want about the subject from the horses mouth. IMO It's rather hard to not get a sack when you arent given any options to do anything with the ball except go one place. There is no playcalling reads to make and if your the QB and you know the playcall gets you a DE in your face after 3 seconds because its happened 10 times in a row - i'm sure that 11th time on your probably starting to doubt its gonna work this time. And because none of your teamates are buying into the play calls either they run short routes, take plays off, play half heartedly and it all effects the players and taem around them.

This team was lifeless last year, and I stand by my prior points a majority of that was due to lack of REAL coaching.

And to Tk's earlier post about David needing a All-pro team for him to succeed...

IMO thats way off base. As I stated earlier David and many other players really needed good coaching more than anything. For DC in particular having a Offensive gameplan that produces results and is about giving the players a chance to play, not a hodge podge of plays thrown together as a playbook and then being told dont audible to anythign other than a run might have helped alot.

All the players on the team need an average chance to succeed to win the game - They need to be able to try and make plays and let the players play the game - nothing more.

IMO David has shown a majority of the time when he's given an average amount of time to throw the ball - he succeeds a majority of the time in hitting his target. Stats can show it, but I prefer the live plays myself.

Can we say the same thing for the receivers catching the ball when it hit them in the hands [Bradford] or running a complete route [Gaffney]. There was no TE in our offense to throw too which was David's major target the first 2 years [Billy Miller] so that leaves only 1 target 90% of the time - Outlet pass to DD. And that is what are offense ended up being a majority of the time. All the players are responsible to play up to par if they want a chance to win.

mikoto
08-03-2006, 11:56 AM
I don't know about Carr, but I do know that he is tough, classy and has ALL the tangibles that don't just grow on trees. Jake is not even in Carr's league when it comes to velocity and quickness of release.

I guess we'll all know soon enough if he can be a winner in this league.

Jake the snake was a gunslinger famous for making bad decisions while in Arizona. True he made plays, sometimes spectacular plays, but often as not he forced balls into bad situations. In fact, sometimes the definition of a spectacular play is one that shouldn't have been possible.

Someone who consistently tries that kind of stuff in the NFL is going to get beat most of the time, witness TD/Int ratio. Worse still, he is going to get his team beat. I watched him a great deal while in Arizona because, if nothing else, he was entertaining and courageous. But forcing balls into poor situations hardly qualifies someone as a good QB even if he pulls it off sometimes. And throwing the ball a ton does not mean that you are a top QB even if it does beef up certain stats. He had talent but lacked discipline while there. Denver coached him up though, which gives me some measure of hope for Carr.

Now Jake is just an above average QB who won't beat his team with mistakes, but hasn't got one single thing he can do with the *ball* better than Carr can, i.e. accuracy, velocity, release quickness, etc. You can make the argument about reading defenses, etc. and I don't have an answer to that save to say that I don't think Carr has had the best position coaching in the world.

I think Carr has followed a somewhat opposite career path than jake did, probably due to coaching and talent surrounding him. He has great tangibles, but has played "over-disciplined" football resulting in boring, unspectacular play. I think it is well established that he has been coached to "not beat the team" with mistakes. This philosophy was central to the "keep it close and have a chance at the end" crapola espoused by Capers and co. I think and hope we will see a much more aggressive version of Carr and offense in general this year. Whether or not it works is anybody's guess...

btw, this is spot on:
Granted the man makes a few mistakes here and there, but I think a large majority of the playcalling wins/losses issues have to do with the "Predictable" playcalling of Palmer, Capers and Pendry and there reluctance to give any leeway in the playcalling to DC. It should be a very telling sign to anyone who's paid attention to the playcalling for the last 4 years - there wasnt much the coaches were doing right as teams often stacked 8 in the box and the losses kept coming.

If all you ever see is eight in the box, stunt/blitz, and cover two, that is on scheme, talent around the QB, and playcalling. No one has ever had a reason to fear any dimension of our offense. Come over the top of Andre and we have no answer. We have, at times, played dink and dunk between the 20's effectively but had nothing that could take it to the house unless someone on D fell down or something, and nothing that scared them in the "red zone" (I hate that term lol). Teams have been laughing at us for four years.

SESupergenius
08-03-2006, 12:19 PM
...... so technically, this is still Caper's team......... and talent wasn't the problem. & Since the defense had about as much, or less turnover as we did on offense, we were all right in having high expectations for our team(play-offs) in '05.Talent was a huge problem. We didn't have a go to guy on short yardage. We didn't have a guy on the line that we can rely on to run behind and we didn't have a 2nd receiver to take pressures off of AJ.

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 12:21 PM
In general this is my problem with posts like this and TK's posts - the putting of all the wins/losses for the team on DC's shoulders as the main reason for the loss. Granted the man could improve in places, but alot of players could have and should have done the same.


David Carr Played poorly last year....... that's all I'm saying..... I'll blame some sacks on him, some three and outs..... but I'm not, and to the best of my recollection(which ain't that good) don't remember ever blaming David Carr for any loss.....



To TK - I along with several posters saw the 05 season coming back in TC and I posted more than one scathing post back during TC last year after I went to Dallas and watched them play. The TEAM was horrible and looked lethargic, like they were goign thru the motions nad were giving up on the staff.


Fine.... what was that all about?? we were happy with 7-9 weren't we?? Sure more would have been better..... but 7-9 after their third year....... why wold they all just give up on the coach??


Then Palmer gets let go and they promote the O-line coach who's gotten Carr sacked a league record amount of times and you and others think DC's play should have been better?


It didn't make sense to me, to promote Pendry...... Just like you...... it appeared saddistic and just plain mean to promote the coach for the O-Line to offensive Coordinator when we were giving up so many sacks......... Unless Capers thought the guy who was responsible for the QB(Palmer) was more to blame for those sacks than the guy responsible for the OLine(Pendry)

But could David Play better?? Yeah. On a one step, or two step drop...... throw the ball.... back foot hits ground, you throw ball... don't try to read the coverage.... since he isn't doing it all too well when they do give him time. One step, throw it..... three steps, throw it...



He should have tried harder? I addressed most of these points in earlier posts so wont go on further, but this arguement is truely an enigma to me as it was obvious to alot of people there were things wrong with the team in the last half of 04 into the 05 season and a majority of those problems werent with the fricking Starting QB.

So what was the problem?? McKinney?? Hogdon?? Weary?? Pitts?? Wiegart?? Wand?? where was it?? did we get rid of it yet?? Cause all those guys are still here.


Note on the 04 season - A majority of the oline problems were resolved and the team was developing a rhythm an dthen in the middle of the season Palmer and crew decided to change the O-line blocking scheme again and then all of sudden there were more sacks.

My eyes tell me thats not a DC problem, but a lack of continuity problem from your coaches and players quit trying. The defense is especially suspect during that time as there was more than one game that got way out of hand because the defense couldnt keep a barnyard animal out of the endzone much less any nfl team.

So what you're saying, is that everyone on our team sucked last year, except David Carr.... that he was the only one out there trying to win..


I watched David play myself at practice, in TC, at games & afterwards since he's been here - I can easily provide examples of his work ethics[staying late] and quotes of him and Andre workign on the side to develop rhythm.


Fine.... I'll take your word for it.....





David is not known for taking chances?? or his OC & HC who were calling the plays arent known for it? Capers was always a conservative run first coach and it showed more than once in his playcalls and his conservative play at the end of alot of games we lost because he quit being aggressive on the Offense and went to his often quotable "Play it close to the end" style and ended up on the losing end a majority of the time because the Defense couldnt stop anyoen from scoring.

A lot of people have won a lot of games like that...

I know the DC from College who lit up passing records and had no problem throwing the damn ball, running boots and getting away from sacks, yet you guys seem to put all the onus on him for making bad calls liek he's shown no promise at all - no stats and has made nothing of his time here. Granted the man makes a few mistakes here and there, but I think a large majority of the playcalling wins/losses issues have to do with the "Predictable" playcalling of Palmer, Capers and Pendry and there reluctance to give any leeway in the playcalling to DC.

Has that been their M.O. throughout their carreers, or is this something they started when they came to Houston??

I don't believe we were predictable, or that our offense was dumbed down in '02/'03...... but it's definitely gotten worse sine then.

& I wish that I had seen him play in College..... then maybe I'd have some love for him.... as it stands now...... I've seen better guys come and go.

It should be a very telling sign to anyone who's paid attention to the playcalling for the last 4 years - there wasnt much the coaches were doing right as teams often stacked 8 in the box and the losses kept coming. Players see that and quit believing, quit trying as hard. Football certainly has a motivation factor to it that has to be accounted for. My memory recalls more than once we were ahead in games over the last 4 years when Dom and the OC would pull back the reigns on the offense and we went to 3 runs and a punt.


I remember........


David was told to take a sack, not to loose the football and a majority of the time not to run with the ball and risk a fumble.

If David agreed to take a sack for that reason, then I do want him out of here. It's stupid for a coach to suggest it, and even dumber for a QB to agree. Chunk it out of bounds....... take the intentional grounding penalty. It's counted as a sack, and it's treated as a sack, clock keeps running.......

There is no reason to tell a QB to take a sack. Not if you care about the guy, and want to keep him healthy.

Dom was always the conservative type and didnt care much for Carr's scrambling. Just listen to David's recent interviews on the new playcalling and rolling out and you can hear all you want about the subject from the horses mouth. IMO It's rather hard to not get a sack when you arent given any options to do anything with the ball except go one place. There is no playcalling reads to make and if your the QB and you know the playcall gets you a DE in your face after 3 seconds because its happened 10 times in a row - i'm sure that 11th time on your probably starting to doubt its gonna work this time.

Or you figure out how to get rid of the ball in 3 seconds...... that's a long time.

And because none of your teamates are buying into the play calls either they run short routes, take plays off, play half heartedly and it all effects the players and taem around them.


Let's see the team lay down on Bret Favre..... Aikman..... Young..... heck, Drew Bledsoe wouldn't put up with that crap. If you're fine with a QB doing that, letting that kind of behavior go on..... then we're just looking for two different players, and should just leave it at that.


This team was lifeless last year, and I stand by my prior points a majority of that was due to lack of REAL coaching.

And to Tk's earlier post about David needing a All-pro team for him to succeed...

IMO thats way off base. As I stated earlier David and many other players really needed good coaching more than anything. For DC in particular having a Offensive gameplan that produces results and is about giving the players a chance to play, not a hodge podge of plays thrown together as a playbook and then being told dont audible to anythign other than a run might have helped alot.

All the players on the team need an average chance to succeed to win the game - They need to be able to try and make plays and let the players play the game - nothing more.

IMO David has shown a majority of the time when he's given an average amount of time to throw the ball - he succeeds a majority of the time in hitting his target. Stats can show it, but I prefer the live plays myself.

Can we say the same thing for the receivers catching the ball when it hit them in the hands [Bradford] or running a complete route [Gaffney]. There was no TE in our offense to throw too which was David's major target the first 2 years [Billy Miller] so that leaves only 1 target 90% of the time - Outlet pass to DD. And that is what are offense ended up being a majority of the time. All the players are responsible to play up to par if they want a chance to win.
But those guys didn't need any coaching? Gaffney... Bradford.... only David right?? Okay... whatever.....

KKHouston
08-03-2006, 12:43 PM
David Carr Played poorly last year....... that's all I'm saying..... I'll blame some sacks on him, some three and outs..... but I'm not, and to the best of my recollection(which ain't that good) don't remember ever blaming David Carr for any loss.....


Uh...

Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......

Okay. I think we're being led down a road here just for fun.

tsip
08-03-2006, 12:49 PM
Out of curiousity where was our defense during those 3 seasons? 03 -05?? The defense cost the team quite a few games with their inability to stop anyone from scoring. It's hard to win shootouts when your spending 50% your time as a qb running from pressure - another 40% of your play callsare off-tackle runs & rb pitches and your only audibles are run left or right. DC's playcallign hands were tied for a majority of his QB career and has been documented and quoted in interviews. In general this is my problem with posts like this and TK's posts - the putting of all the wins/losses for the team on DC's shoulders as the main reason for the loss. Granted the man could improve in places, but alot of players could have and should have done the same.

To TK - I along with several posters saw the 05 season coming back in TC and I posted more than one scathing post back during TC last year after I went to Dallas and watched them play. The TEAM was horrible and looked lethargic, like they were goign thru the motions nad were giving up on the staff. Then Palmer gets let go and they promote the O-line coach who's gotten Carr sacked a league record amount of times and you and others think DC's play should have been better? He should have tried harder? I addressed most of these points in earlier posts so wont go on further, but this arguement is truely an enigma to me as it was obvious to alot of people there were things wrong with the team in the last half of 04 into the 05 season and a majority of those problems werent with the fricking Starting QB.

Note on the 04 season - A majority of the oline problems were resolved and the team was developing a rhythm an dthen in the middle of the season Palmer and crew decided to change the O-line blocking scheme again and then all of sudden there were more sacks. My eyes tell me thats not a DC problem, but a lack of continuity problem from your coaches and players quit trying. The defense is especially suspect during that time as there was more than one game that got way out of hand because the defense couldnt keep a barnyard animal out of the endzone much less any nfl team.

I watched David play myself at practice, in TC, at games & afterwards since he's been here - I can easily provide examples of his work ethics[staying late] and quotes of him and Andre workign on the side to develop rhythm.



David is not known for taking chances?? or his OC & HC who were calling the plays arent known for it? Capers was always a conservative run first coach and it showed more than once in his playcalls and his conservative play at the end of alot of games we lost because he quit being aggressive on the Offense and went to his often quotable "Play it close to the end" style and ended up on the losing end a majority of the time because the Defense couldnt stop anyoen from scoring.

I know the DC from College who lit up passing records and had no problem throwing the damn ball, running boots and getting away from sacks, yet you guys seem to put all the onus on him for making bad calls liek he's shown no promise at all - no stats and has made nothing of his time here. Granted the man makes a few mistakes here and there, but I think a large majority of the playcalling wins/losses issues have to do with the "Predictable" playcalling of Palmer, Capers and Pendry and there reluctance to give any leeway in the playcalling to DC. It should be a very telling sign to anyone who's paid attention to the playcalling for the last 4 years - there wasnt much the coaches were doing right as teams often stacked 8 in the box and the losses kept coming. Players see that and quit believing, quit trying as hard. Football certainly has a motivation factor to it that has to be accounted for. My memory recalls more than once we were ahead in games over the last 4 years when Dom and the OC would pull back the reigns on the offense and we went to 3 runs and a punt. David was told to take a sack, not to loose the football and a majority of the time not to run with the ball and risk a fumble. Dom was always the conservative type and didnt care much for Carr's scrambling. Just listen to David's recent interviews on the new playcalling and rolling out and you can hear all you want about the subject from the horses mouth. IMO It's rather hard to not get a sack when you arent given any options to do anything with the ball except go one place. There is no playcalling reads to make and if your the QB and you know the playcall gets you a DE in your face after 3 seconds because its happened 10 times in a row - i'm sure that 11th time on your probably starting to doubt its gonna work this time. And because none of your teamates are buying into the play calls either they run short routes, take plays off, play half heartedly and it all effects the players and taem around them.

This team was lifeless last year, and I stand by my prior points a majority of that was due to lack of REAL coaching.

And to Tk's earlier post about David needing a All-pro team for him to succeed...

IMO thats way off base. As I stated earlier David and many other players really needed good coaching more than anything. For DC in particular having a Offensive gameplan that produces results and is about giving the players a chance to play, not a hodge podge of plays thrown together as a playbook and then being told dont audible to anythign other than a run might have helped alot.

All the players on the team need an average chance to succeed to win the game - They need to be able to try and make plays and let the players play the game - nothing more.

IMO David has shown a majority of the time when he's given an average amount of time to throw the ball - he succeeds a majority of the time in hitting his target. Stats can show it, but I prefer the live plays myself.

Can we say the same thing for the receivers catching the ball when it hit them in the hands [Bradford] or running a complete route [Gaffney]. There was no TE in our offense to throw too which was David's major target the first 2 years [Billy Miller] so that leaves only 1 target 90% of the time - Outlet pass to DD. And that is what are offense ended up being a majority of the time. All the players are responsible to play up to par if they want a chance to win.

...couldn't you find just 1 'new' thought on Carr? I'm running out of boots...and, it's OK to back up your 'thoughts' with facts every once in awhile--before last years debacle and the prior 'witch hunts,' the:homer: 's demanded every statement by the CL's to be 'notarized' as fact...

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 01:39 PM
Uh...



Okay. I think we're being led down a road here just for fun.

what??

I said David didn't get Capers "system"

we didn't get Capers "system"

Capers didn't get Capers "system"

I'm not saying we went 2-14 because David was the only one who didn't get Capers "system".

KKHouston
08-03-2006, 01:50 PM
what??

I said David didn't get Capers "system"

we didn't get Capers "system"

Capers didn't get Capers "system"

I'm not saying we went 2-14 because David was the only one who didn't get Capers "system".


C'mon, TK - you've crawfish more than a politician.. :) You've been all over the place disguising your argument on this... The basic point was Carr now should have the tools he's needed, and a Coach who knows what he is doing.

Somehow it's digressed into John Kitna/Joey Harrington/Aaron Brooks as opposed to David Carr, when you, yourself agree that Carr hasn't had a decent opportunity to perform under the old command.

Carr underperformed, we all agree. Carr didn't have the support he needed and now he has the chance. The majority of us think he has what it takes to succeed given this opportunity.

No harm, no foul. You're fun to read.

HOU-TEX
08-03-2006, 01:54 PM
C'mon, TK - you've crawfish more than a politician.. :) You've been all over the place disguising your argument on this... The basic point was Carr now should have the tools he's need, and a Coach who knows what he is doing.

Somehow it's digressed into John Kitna/Joey Harrington/Aaron Brooks as opposed to David Carr, when you, yourself agree that Carr hasn't had a decent opportunity to perform under the old command.

Carr underperformed, we all agree. Carr didn't have the support he needed and now he has the chance. The majority of us think he has what it takes to succeed given this opportunity.

No harm, no foul. You're fun to read.

It's like reading the National Inquirer, entertaining to read, but full of BS:tease:

U4ikrob
08-03-2006, 02:00 PM
Now TK - you had no problems pulling my post apart to make your points, but you couldnt read the verbiage in between that answered a majority of your questions your posing me???

Just re-read the posts above and it will explain a majority of the points. I'm ceratinly not asserting DC was the only one in need of coaching, but merely everyone was performing under-par and could step it up a few notches - but mainly I felt the Coaching Staff needed to do the most stepping up and teaching of the players. I hoenstly felt liek they were lettign the players down alot with their own "Going thru the Motions" approach to coaching the team and it refelcted itself i nthe way the team played. The playcalling and its lame-duck versions have been well documented on this board and numerous NFL sites for the last few years - easily referenced if you look. As for what happened in between 04 and 05 - as I stated above I felt the players quit on the staff, because they felt what they were being asked to do was mickey mouse stuff that didnt work and the players quit trying as hard because they quit believing it would work. I can pull a few quotes from players to easily show that point including Mckinney, D-rob, TJ, Walker and Carr.

Bottom line for my point - All Players needed to step up - some did and others did not. The coaching staff I felt needed to do th most stepping up though and didnt - instead they didnt hold each other accountable and the players took that to heart. They needed to actually coach the players into a TEAM and teach the players their positions [esp the rookies] and help them turn into good Pro players. I saw a real lack of that fundamental coaching with a lot of the rookie players on this team over the last few years esp the O-line, QB, WR and Defense. Now some of that IS what it is sloppy/lazy player traits, but I feel alot of it was not being coached up the right way from the first year with the team and not reinforcing it later with coaches and playcalls that produce results from doign things the right way. Players watch for results, not just words. IMO Now that the accountability with the player and the team is a part of the equation with Coach K & Co - you will see a vast difference in player execution and team performance overall as a result.

Like I mentioned before IMO 'Its hard to be succesfull in a business without a good infrastructure." People need clear direction and solid reinforcement of whats going on and what to do when things happen. IMO This same thing applies to just about any team or business in general thats succesful.

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 02:31 PM
C'mon, TK - you've crawfish more than a politician.. :) You've been all over the place disguising your argument on this... The basic point was Carr now should have the tools he's need, and a Coach who knows what he is doing.

Somehow it's digressed into John Kitna/Joey Harrington/Aaron Brooks as opposed to David Carr, when you, yourself agree that Carr hasn't had a decent opportunity to perform under the old command.

Carr underperformed, we all agree. Carr didn't have the support he needed and now he has the chance. The majority of us think he has what it takes to succeed given this opportunity.

No harm, no foul. You're fun to read.

It's like reading the National Inquirer, entertaining to read, but full of BS:tease:

So you're saying that David was a bright spot on our team in 2006??

Hulk75
08-03-2006, 02:32 PM
hey....... I'm with you..... I'm very optomistic about what Carr will do next year... I'm just saying he sucked last year. We haven't done anything to our offensive line, that we haven't done before, and overall, we haven't had any major overall of the offensive talent..... we've got a new tight end........ just like years before, we have the same(more or less) offensive line, a fullback who personally I have no reason to believe is anybetter than the guy we let go, and the only real addition in Eric Moulds...... so technically, this is still Caper's team......... and talent wasn't the problem. & Since the defense had about as much, or less turnover as we did on offense, we were all right in having high expectations for our team(play-offs) in '05.

But Carr sucked....... just as badly as Wade, T.J, Babin, Buchannon(that may be pushing it), Gaffney, etc......

& I don't get what you are saying about David's '03 season...... are you saying he would have taken 34 more sacks that year, if he didn't play hurt, or played in those 5 more games?? or are you saying he would have thrown for another 1500 yards in those 5 games??

I'd be ecstatic if David had 5 300 yard games in a single season.....
:tease:
Back and Forth all around we come back to the same thing.

Bottom Line the TEAM>>>>>>>TTEEAAMM SUCKED last year due to the COACHING STAFF and there inabillity to have the right scheme/Game plan week in and week out. We have as much talent as any team in the league.

P-R-E-D-I-C-T-A-B-L-E, same thing every week week in week out for 4 years. Sooner or later NFL teams will catch on. That is it PERIOD. The Guys that did not get it done are not here and that is the Coaching staff.

Give me all the stats in the world, bad or good. That left with the staff that was here last. Listen to the guys when they talk after practice, David Carr called Troy Callohon a Genius. And if Troy is a genuis and Carr is picking up the Offense quick and is the most impressive at camp right now(says Kubiak), then I have to believe that all this he can read Defense stuff was due to how predictable the Offense acctually was last year and how well each team KNEW what we were doing.

When you have fans that Know right on weather it was a run or a Pass last 4 year, what in the HECK do you think NFL D Cor. knew. Run Run Pass! Run Run Pass!

Carr can play and play at a very high level...........No lets think do you really think that Andre stats last year was the best he could do, but yet he did not suck to you.
Let me tell you who the best CB in the league was and still is since he got on at Dallas Chris Palmer, by far the best Defender in the league, he can lock down some of the best Offenses in the league.

So go on and on all you want, the Kid is going to come out smoking:cowboy1: He is working his BUTT OFF right now and that always pays off.

Kind of hard to throw for 300 yards in a RUN FIRST OFFENSE! Mind Blowing sometimes, Why does he not have Peyton stats, give me a break, if you cant answer that you should not be a loud to watch football.

HOU-TEX
08-03-2006, 02:39 PM
So you're saying that David was a bright spot on our team in 2006??

Considering I can't see into the future, I'm not sure he's a bright spot in the 06 season since it hasn't even been played yet. Truthfully, I think I'm done posting about DC due to posters like yourself constantly repeating the same things over and over, no matter how many times others on this board have posted obvious proof to contradict what you spew. Good day and good luck:redtowel:

KKHouston
08-03-2006, 02:40 PM
So you're saying that David was a bright spot on our team in 2006??

Was? 2006? I wish I could know that for certain. I'd be rich. :)

I'm saying he has what he needs now... a good coach, and has every opportunity to succeed in 2006. I think he has the ability and the passion, and more importantly, the clarity.

U4ikrob
08-03-2006, 02:41 PM
...couldn't you find just 1 'new' thought on Carr? I'm running out of boots...and, it's OK to back up your 'thoughts' with facts every once in awhile--before last years debacle and the prior 'witch hunts,' the:homer: 's demanded every statement by the CL's to be 'notarized' as fact...


I understand that Tsip - Wasnt trying to rehash the old :homer: arguements, but TK was baiting me [thats my story and im sticking to it] [J/K - TK]

Seriously I can back up most of my posts with facts, quotes and other things as I have usually done in the past. Ive been here all along since the first board too and just got back to posting again on the board during the Off season last year as I got tired of the first boards TROLLS - It's no wonder that board got canned.

To answer - Alot of the points I was bringing are from recent quotes and interviews with Carr here at this site so didnt feel it necessary to re-post. Like most here I watch the games, attend TC and like credability and usually provide links for posts. Check out some of my other past work. I'll do that if need be here, but were on page 9 now - so figured folks are into full on conjecture at this point - ala Mora: PLAYOFFS??? lol :francis:

thunderkyss
08-03-2006, 06:26 PM
To me, this quote:

“Now that we have a system in place where I really understand not just my position, but everybody’s position, I’m going to make sure everyone’s in place and make sure we’re all running the same unit.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2680&section=N%20Latest%20News

That says a ton.

This is the quote I first responded to..... Some people look at the good in a post like this.



Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......

But I posted what I saw when I read it. He now understands his position and the other positions on the field..... Meaning he didn't understand his position last year, or the position of the people around him....

Yet...... Hulk75 knew what his position was, and so did ever DefCord according to him.

So...... alot of people wanted Weary, Wand, and McKinney out of here... because they didn't know what they were doing....... regardless of the bad coaching..

David Carr just admitted he didn't know what he was doing... IMHO, it showed...

Basically, lets boil down everything I've been saying for the last 5 or so pages...... and I've basically said the same thing David Carr did.....


I've also expressed an opinion of mine.... I thought Jake was special..... even watching him on a bad team, with all his bad stats.... whatever... I thought he was a diamond in the rough....

David Carr....... Year one, I thought he had just as much promise as any hotshot rookie QB.... since then....... I haven't been impressed...

but check this out........ I don't think the Blue Home Jersey look as good as the BattleRed Jerseys........

Does that upset you?? Does that put your panties in a wad??

it shouldn't, it's just an opinion..... that's what I believe, and I have reasons for why I believe that way..

I've not been impressed by David Carr for a very long time.... The team was bad, but I believe I should have seen something to make me think he has what it takes to be better than avg..... but I haven't. composure....... poise.... Command...... I'm not seeing it.

Can I back it up??

When I say David assumed the fetal position before he was touched..... am I making that up?? Is that something you did not see?? or is that acceptable and understandable to you??

If I were to tell you I've seen several occasions where David could have chunked the ball, or ran forward and to his right, where he had a lane, but for some reason he chose to turn around, and run back & to his left, right into a defender he could not see....... where Wade was doing his job, pushing his man around the pocket, but David ran right into him....... am I making that up as well, or is it acceptable to watch him do the same, time and time again.

Carr sucked...... but I'm not saying he was the worst player on the team.....

and I believe Kubiaks statement was more along the lines of "most improved", not "most impressive" there is a big difference.

most improved means he had a lot of areas to work on..... where if what the CLs were right, there'd be nothing that needs to be improved.....

The Pencil Neck
08-04-2006, 11:05 PM
My logic was that watching him play, he played better than Carr. His stats didn't show it..... I didn't know if they did or didn't... he was on a bad team, I don't expect his stats to show anything special. I know from Watching him, he was special....... he had many fans, he was on a loosing team, but still showing up on sportscenter highlight reels..... If Tom Jackson hadn't started his "Jacked Up" segment, Carr wouldn't stand a chance of getting on Sports Center.

Jake didn't look like a rookie his 4th year. regardless what the stats say, he looked like a Good QB on a bad team..... not an avg QB on a bad team.

When Jake plays well, he looks really good. He's got that special "spark"... but then he turns around and makes incredibly stupid mistakes. The Broncos have been able to minimize that at times, but it still rears its ugly head at bad times.

I was one of Jake's fans coming out of ASU and his first few years in the NFL but he's not the QB you want on your team if you want to do anything. He'll find a way to break your heart.

The Pencil Neck
08-04-2006, 11:24 PM
His rookie and first full starter season he was commanding comeback play. His team was in the playoffs while his defense was never ranked that high. He did not a lot of support around him. His coach was Caper's mentor.


Well, he had Adrien Murrell running for over 1,000 yards and Frank Sanders with over 1,000 yards receiving and Rob Moore was just short of 1000 yards receiving.. He had Larry Centers as his fullback catching 69 passes. Lomas Brown was on the offensive line.

Murrell had come to the Cards after a couple of good years with the Jets. Larry Centers is ranked 9th all time in Receptions and was coming off a couple of great receiving years. Sanders had three good years there and Moore had 5 years of around 1000 yards. These weren't 1-shot guys; they were good. They had Eric Metcalf as their 3rd receiver that year.

That defense had Aeneas Williams at one corner (he went to the Pro Bowl that year) and Corey Chavous at the other and Simeon Rice and Eric Swann on the line. They weren't good but they weren't nearly as bad as the D the Texans fielded last year.

The Pencil Neck
08-04-2006, 11:26 PM
And like I said earlier, Carr in the last 4 seasons has had just as weak if not a weaker cast than Plummer had around him.

I think Plummer had the obviously stronger and more experienced cast around him.

The Pencil Neck
08-04-2006, 11:31 PM
Only because Carr is taking sacks, and Jake was making plays....

The Cardinals had 78 sacks in 97 and 50 sacks in 98.

Does that sound familiar?