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Bartkoman
07-26-2006, 03:19 PM
Who do y'all think is the better reciever: Mathis or Walter? Mathis no doubt has the speed to burn defenders, but I've talked to Cincy fans and they all say Walter runs terrific routes and finds open space, he is a good possession reciever.

Just wanted some more opinions.

HOU-TEX
07-26-2006, 03:27 PM
Who do y'all think is the better reciever: Mathis or Walter? Mathis no doubt has the speed to burn defenders, but I've talked to Cincy fans and they all say Walter runs terrific routes and finds open space, he is a good possession reciever.

Just wanted some more opinions.

Right now I'd say Walters due to Mathis being hurt. Other than his return game Mathis didn't really impress me much.

Corrosion
07-26-2006, 03:30 PM
Who do y'all think is the better reciever: Mathis or Walter? Mathis no doubt has the speed to burn defenders, but I've talked to Cincy fans and they all say Walter runs terrific routes and finds open space, he is a good possession reciever.

Just wanted some more opinions.


Walter with-out a doubt . Mathis is fast but runs poor routes and gets a zero for work ethic . The guy has GOD given ability ..... Its time he puts out some effort to improve himself .

jerek
07-26-2006, 03:34 PM
I still don't know where people get this Mathis is the practice clown schtick. Does anyone have a source for this other than "McClain said it on the radio once?"

TexanFan881
07-26-2006, 03:47 PM
I'll choose none of the above (in the battle for the #3 WR).

Armstrong is a notch above both in my head. He is a reliable reciever and should be a #3 for us. He's been underused so much by the coaching staff the last couple years it's rediculous. Give Armstrong the ball :texflag:

I think other than his kick returner skills Mathis has been somewhat disappointing and that he may become better than Walter in a few years but currently out of the two you stated I'd pick Walter.

mexican_texan
07-26-2006, 03:55 PM
If it wasn't for his speed, Mathis wouldn't be in the league. His hands, routes, work ethic, etc., would make him at best, a CFL player. I haven't seen enough of Walters to make a statement, but I'm sure he's the better WR.

HOU-TEX
07-26-2006, 04:02 PM
If it wasn't for his speed, Mathis wouldn't be in the league. His hands, routes, work ethic, etc., would make him at best, a CFL player. I haven't seen enough of Walters to make a statement, but I'm sure he's the better WR.

I just saw a couple of clips of him with the Bengals on the NFL network during lunch. He looked pretty good to me, granted they were highlights. He looked like a good sized fella too.:redtowel:

jerek
07-26-2006, 04:03 PM
I still don't know where people get this Mathis is the practice clown schtick. Does anyone have a source for this other than "McClain said it on the radio once?"

Good point, Jerek. I haven't. Richard Justice said it once too, if that helps.

Runner
07-26-2006, 04:03 PM
I still don't know where people get this Mathis is the practice clown schtick. Does anyone have a source for this other than "McClain said it on the radio once?"

Well, you do know where people get this, since you answered your own question. There was one comment about Mathis' attitude in the media, mix that with the motorcycle accident, put it in the message board pressure cooker, and voila......controversy.

I thought the whole Mathis attitude thing was an interesting case study in how people repeat each other's opinions, and those opinions gain more and more credibility throug repetition without the addition of new facts or observations.

This reminds me of an interesting quote in The Poe Shadow. I may have to look it up and use it as my signature.

jerek
07-26-2006, 04:05 PM
Well, you do know where people get this, since you answered your own question. There was one comment about Mathis' attitude in the media, mix that with the motorcycle accident, put it in the message board pressure cooker, and voila......controversy.

I thought the whole Mathis attitude thing was an interesting case study in how people repeat each other's opinions, and those opinions gain more and more credibility without the addition of new facts or observations.

This reminds me of an interesting quote in The Poe Shadow. I may have to look it up and use it as my signature.

Thanks for clearing that up at any rate. A guy can be a hothead (reports of fighting, though some would even say thats just misdirected competitive fire) or a dummy (wheelies on the freeway, bad idea) and still be a hard worker.

No idea, maybe he is a practice bozo, but I've never heard that from a remotely credible source. IIRC McClain's quote had to do with Mathis not liking the old coaches and McClain wondering aloud if he'd get along better than the new.

HOU-TEX
07-26-2006, 04:09 PM
Well, you do know where people get this, since you answered your own question. There was one comment about Mathis' attitude in the media, mix that with the motorcycle accident, put it in the message board pressure cooker, and voila......controversy.

I thought the whole Mathis attitude thing was an interesting case study in how people repeat each other's opinions, and those opinions gain more and more credibility throug repetition without the addition of new facts or observations.

This reminds me of an interesting quote in The Poe Shadow. I may have to look it up and use it as my signature.

Wasn't he late to a Pro-bowl event? I'm not insueing that makes him a bad person, but I think that's where all the nagativity got started. I might be wrong though. Personally, I love the guy as far as a returner. watching him kick on the afterburners on a return is fun to watch. I hope he gets healthy soon.

Runner
07-26-2006, 04:13 PM
Wasn't he late to a Pro-bowl event? I'm not insueing that makes him a bad person, but I think that's where all the nagativity got started. I might be wrong though. Personally, I love the guy as far as a returner. watching him kick on the afterburners on a return is fun to watch. I hope he gets healthy soon.

Maybe. I still think things got overblown very quickly. Just to be clear, I think he has a lot of work to do before he is an NFL caliber receiver that deserves a lot of playing time. I just don't think is a locker room cancer or trouble maker as some believe.

Of course, I could be wrong. :shrug:

Bartkoman
07-26-2006, 04:16 PM
I dont really listen when McClain or Justice talk because I think they just like the sound of their own voices and they hardly ever have anything intelligent to say, so I dont really know about Mathis' work ethic. If anyone can coach him up to a good reciever, I think it would be Kubiak. I have seen some clips of Walter and I think he can be a dangeruos slot reciever. With Johnson and Moulds getting som extra attention, I think he will have no problem getting open against most D's (if he isnt open, Putzier should be)


I cant wait to see a more agressive offense this year instead of run, run, sack, punt like last year. Carr has some weapons to work with this year.

the wonger need food
07-26-2006, 04:21 PM
Well, you do know where people get this, since you answered your own question. There was one comment about Mathis' attitude in the media, mix that with the motorcycle accident, put it in the message board pressure cooker, and voila......controversy.

I thought the whole Mathis attitude thing was an interesting case study in how people repeat each other's opinions, and those opinions gain more and more credibility throug repetition without the addition of new facts or observations.

This reminds me of an interesting quote in The Poe Shadow. I may have to look it up and use it as my signature.

For what it's worth, I asked Kyle Shanahan about his hard-headedness at the draft party and he certainly didn't deny it and in a round about sort of way confirmed it.

HOU-TEX
07-26-2006, 04:22 PM
Maybe. I still think things got overblown very quickly. Just to be clear, I think he has a lot of work to do before he is an NFL caliber receiver that deserves a lot of playing time. I just don't think is a locker room cancer or trouble maker as some believe.

Of course, I could be wrong. :shrug:

That Pro-bowl thing was the only negative thing I've heard. I can't really see him being a trouble maker. Wasn't he picked in the lates rds of the draft?

I don't really see him being a receiver any time soon. We need him as a return specialist.

jerek
07-26-2006, 04:23 PM
For what it's worth, I asked Kyle Shanahan about his hard-headedness at the draft party and he certainly didn't deny it and in a round about sort of way confirmed it.

I don't even like half your posts, wonger, but that post right there is a more credible source than McClain's extremely vague comment. It wouldn't even surprise me, just irritates me that people are blasting the guy and not giving a reason as to why they believe it.

Mathis was picked in Round 4, and I think he can be a dangerous receiver for us. Hopefully he gets better and gets practicing.

Bartkoman
07-26-2006, 04:28 PM
Wasn't he picked in the lates rds of the draft?

I think he was a 4th rounder. On the plus side, at least he wasnt been arrested for anything :thumbup

the wonger need food
07-26-2006, 04:41 PM
Mathis got into some trouble with the law while he was in college. I can't remember what it was for. He has also been in at least one fight with a teammate off the field. I wouldn't conclude (yet) that he's a bad guy, but by the Texans' standards he appears to be troublemaker.

Interesting find on his coach... http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/28/Sports/Bucs_assistant_arrest.shtml

Insideop
07-26-2006, 04:44 PM
I think Mathis will be used mostly as a KR and only a little as a receiver due to his abilities as a KR (speed!) and lack of abilities as a receiver (route running, hands, experience).

Walter, I haven't seen at all, but I've been hearing/reading good things about him. He's tall, runs good routes, and has good hands. On the negative side, I heard he's not very fast. I think he will be our 3rd or 4th receiver with Armstrong according to what I've been reading.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out :poker: in TC and the RS!

HOU-TEX
07-26-2006, 04:48 PM
Mathis got into some trouble with the law while he was in college. I can't remember what it was for. He has also been in at least one fight with a teammate off the field. I wouldn't conclude (yet) that he's a bad guy, but by the Texans' standards he appears to be troublemaker.

Interesting find on his coach... http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/28/Sports/Bucs_assistant_arrest.shtml

Nothing wrong with going on a little bender every once in a while.:party:

Bearfan Blue and Orange
07-26-2006, 04:49 PM
I don't think he is a cancer either or a truble maker in the sense to disrupt the continuity of the team. I think hard headed may be the description many would use.

There is nothing bad about having attitude as long as you channel it in a constructive way, like burning the defenses you are up against and letting your play talk. Maybe he is a little bothered by the Texans getting Moulds and Walter because he would now have to compete to move up in the order.

He may have been a little bothered by Kubiak saying the Texans need him to be more than a Kick Returner, they want him to learn the offense and not just get by on his speed. They want him to be able to use his speed and intelligence as a WR also and then kick returner.

I think if he humbles himself and learns from the players and coaches that specialize in WRs he can learn alot.

"the day you stop learning something is the day you start to die"

Runner
07-26-2006, 04:51 PM
Mathis got into some trouble with the law while he was in college. I can't remember what it was for. He has also been in at least one fight with a teammate off the field. I wouldn't conclude (yet) that he's a bad guy, but by the Texans' standards he appears to be troublemaker.



I asked one of his peers about him, and he said, "he's young". I took that to mean more "bothersome, but can be ignored" rather than a troublemaker in a team unity manner.

Regardless, we are dicing words at this point and it is pretty much a matter of degree. I don't think he's done anything to cause team dissension...yet, if ever.

AFD1717
07-26-2006, 04:51 PM
That's easy - Walter.

Mathis isn't a reciever, he's a fast guy that occasionally gets a football thrown at him. He has a higher cieling than Walter, but IMO he hasn't learned how to play his position.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
07-26-2006, 04:53 PM
I think Mathis will be used mostly as a KR and only a little as a receiver due to his abilities as a KR (speed!) and lack of abilities as a receiver (route running, hands, experience).

Walter, I haven't seen at all, but I've been hearing/reading good things about him. He's tall, runs good routes, and has good hands. On the negative side, I heard he's not very fast. I think he will be our 3rd or 4th receiver with Armstrong according to what I've been reading.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out :poker: in TC and the RS!

Not very fast??? He runs 4.4s

You may want to tak a look at the playoff game against the Steeler (SB Champs) he was pretty fast there.

When he lined up against Champ Bailey on Monday night football.... He blew right pass him. of course when you do that to one of the fastest players you get double teamed next time (he did).

Rosewood
07-26-2006, 04:53 PM
Who do y'all think is the better reciever: Mathis or Walter? Mathis no doubt has the speed to burn defenders, but I've talked to Cincy fans and they all say Walter runs terrific routes and finds open space, he is a good possession reciever.

Just wanted some more opinions.

Mathis....this young stud will be a great receiver someday....He is still undergoing some construction on his game...he will develope and I truly believe it will be really soon...

Battle Red Flash
07-26-2006, 04:55 PM
From all the things I've heard from different sources, I think it will be Walter.
Observers at the OTA's said Walter caught everything, and is bigger than expected.
I'd love for them both to be very good.

mexican_texan
07-26-2006, 04:57 PM
Last year, right around the Niners game, Charlie Pallilo said that Mathis had gotten into a fight with TE Marcellus Rivers.

El Tejano
07-26-2006, 05:05 PM
One thing is we did have a huge case of dropsies from the WR position. A guy wouldn't turn around and get hit in the head. So anytime we can get a dude that had glue hands it puts him above the rest.

Armstrong and Walter should have a nice camp but judging from what I've read here about Moulds saying Walter is going to be good, I will give it to Walter right now.

the wonger need food
07-26-2006, 05:48 PM
I asked one of his peers about him, and he said, "he's young". I took that to mean more "bothersome, but can be ignored" rather than a troublemaker in a team unity manner.

Regardless, we are dicing words at this point and it is pretty much a matter of degree. I don't think he's done anything to cause team dissension...yet, if ever.

I agree. I stated that he might be a "troublemaker by the Texans standards" which would make him a saint by the Cowboys or Bengals standards. I love watching the guy play and really hope that he pans out, but he's nearly as polished of a receiver as Walter at this point.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
07-27-2006, 08:50 AM
I agree. I stated that he might be a "troublemaker by the Texans standards" which would make him a saint by the Cowboys or Bengals standards. I love watching the guy play and really hope that he pans out, but he's nearly as polished of a receiver as Walter at this point.

Isn't that contradicting to everything that has been said and of that were the case why would they go get Walter in FA if they already had a "polished" receiver as Walter.

They got him because of his work ethic, reliability of catching the ball and not afraid to get hit or deliver a hit, tight route running, and other characteristics, of which Mathis has not shown. Therefore, he is not as "polished" as Walter.

the wonger need food
07-27-2006, 09:13 AM
Isn't that contradicting to everything that has been said and of that were the case why would they go get Walter in FA if they already had a "polished" receiver as Walter.

They got him because of his work ethic, reliability of catching the ball and not afraid to get hit or deliver a hit, tight route running, and other characteristics, of which Mathis has not shown. Therefore, he is not as "polished" as Walter.

I meant that he is NOT nearly as polished as Walter. Typo.

Honestly, I can't ever see Mathis even being a #2. Maybe a slot guy someday. If he contributes the same amount that Dante Hall does for KC, I would be happy.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
07-27-2006, 12:28 PM
I am with you now. sorry for the confusion. I thought is was bizarre as you are usually on top of things on this MB.

I cannot wait for you all to see what I have seen since Kevin Walter left high school.

I think you all are going to be pleasantly surprised and saying how did this guy fly under the radar for so long. Don't get me wrong, because of the situations he has been in from college to the Giants to Bengals to Texans, he has had the opportunity to grow and learn from the top WR in the game from Toomer, Hilliard, Chad Johnson, TJ, and now Moulds and AJ!!!

The journey has made him more focused, disciplined, and stronger as a WR.

Embrace him and reap the rewards!!!

TransplantTexan1
07-27-2006, 12:47 PM
If for no other reason than Walters, from what I've seen, read and heard, has had an opportunity to learn more of the fundamentals of being an NFL receivers, runs better routes, a little tougher in traffic and has a better head for reading what the coverages are trying to do.

Mathis may get to this point and then beyond but he didn't show much of a learning curve in year one. The hope is that with a new regime and a more confident attitude overall surrounding the offense, Jerome's game can better develop. I think he has quite a bit of talent.

As it stands, he certainly will be returning kicks, and there's certainly no question about his ability in that department.

Bartkoman
07-27-2006, 03:57 PM
How long is Mathis going to be out? I've heard he will be back as early as the second game to as late as the 7th.

I hope if Dunta takes kickoffs, that he doesnt get hurt, I would much rather have a little poorer field position and him healty on defense than have Phillip replace him.

Insideop
07-27-2006, 04:56 PM
Not very fast??? He runs 4.4s

You may want to tak a look at the playoff game against the Steeler (SB Champs) he was pretty fast there.

When he lined up against Champ Bailey on Monday night football.... He blew right pass him. of course when you do that to one of the fastest players you get double teamed next time (he did).


Bearfan, where did you see that he runs 4.4's? I thought I read somewhere, though I don't remember where,(Senior moment) when we first got him from Cincy that he wasn't that fast. Only average speed. I can't imagine Cincy letting a receiver go with that kind of speed and size plus all the other tools for only a 7th round draft choice. I know they are loaded at that position, and they had him projected as their 4th receiver, but I heard he had a good chance to move up to the 3rd spot. Can you clear things up for me?:confused:

Ibar_Harry
07-27-2006, 05:43 PM
Bearfan does love Walters. I'm certain he will find a hat full of stats for you. What impresses me about the young man is he has continued to progress and reach a higher threshold. He started as nothing and turned himself into something through hard work. There is something to be said for that.

Cincy was reluctant, and in fact now if they had the choice to make, I don't think they would let him go. He was a steal very much like the Moulds steal from the Bills. Our receiver core may well become the talk of the league. We are a whole lot better than last year, in fact frightenly so. Our receivers are very skilled.

MorKnolle
07-27-2006, 07:54 PM
Bearfan, where did you see that he runs 4.4's? I thought I read somewhere, though I don't remember where,(Senior moment) when we first got him from Cincy that he wasn't that fast. Only average speed. I can't imagine Cincy letting a receiver go with that kind of speed and size plus all the other tools for only a 7th round draft choice. I know they are loaded at that position, and they had him projected as their 4th receiver, but I heard he had a good chance to move up to the 3rd spot. Can you clear things up for me?:confused:

The only quoted time I've seen for Kevin Walters was in the mid-4.5 range, which is not especially fast for a WR, but he is a big target.

TK_Gamer
07-28-2006, 06:31 AM
did someone mention polish? i'm sorry , mathis is a helluva kick returner, but he has NO polish, watch his route running, leaping (more reaching than leaping) he just dont look like NFL WR material, maybe in 2 years if he gets serious, I guess he just hasnt matured or something, maybe some good coaching and getting bumped to no. 5 will help him this year. I like Walter though. big , consistent hands. id like to see him on a fly or post with moulds running across the middle to strip the FS off him. we could catch alot of teams cheating.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
07-28-2006, 09:33 AM
Bearfan, where did you see that he runs 4.4's? I thought I read somewhere, though I don't remember where,(Senior moment) when we first got him from Cincy that he wasn't that fast. Only average speed. I can't imagine Cincy letting a receiver go with that kind of speed and size plus all the other tools for only a 7th round draft choice. I know they are loaded at that position, and they had him projected as their 4th receiver, but I heard he had a good chance to move up to the 3rd spot. Can you clear things up for me?:confused:

Ibar is right, I am big on Kevin, I have followed him sincce he left high school here in Illinois and went to Eastern Michigan. until today, so I have seen his progression for 7+years. I am not going to lie, I know Kevin, I work with his dad, so I am always talking to his dad about how Kevin is doing.

I have the confidence of his dad that he can share things with me and it will not get out, and I have stuck to that trust with him and will not break that by spilling everything out.

I can say this, Kevin is a very disciplined hard worker and is a sponge when it comes to learning. He has been to speed camp since being drafted and was times in the 4.4s and he has broken the 4.4 barrier. On his proday in Northwestern University he was running 4.45.

If you think about it, he was the fastest gunner that Cinci had. Yes he was drafted in the 7th round, that is why Houston had to give Cinci the 7th rounder. I think Cinci did not expect the Texans to step up and offer Kevin what they did and being that they had kelly Washington drafted in the upper rounds and Henry in the upper rounds, politics plays a big part of signing a guy to a match that Texans offered. When you have much money "sitting on the bench (or possibly jail now)". No team wants to waste money on the bench.

I am thinking of Cinci could have seen into the future, they would have matched the offer and had the BEST 1,2,3 WR combo in the league with Johnson, TJ, and Walter.

Their loss, now Texans have the opportunity to have the BEST 1,2,3 in the league with AJ, Moulds, and Walter.

Kevin did not really get to showcase his speed until the Playoff game against Pittsburgh. I even said to myself... WOW he looks fast today. This is because of the injury at the beginning of the game he got his chance and took full advantage of it being the leading WR in that game.

He was used alot as a possession WR where he did not get to spread the field. He moved the chains when he was called upon. In the playoff game he was able to stretch the field and get past the DBs.

I guess what I am saying is all teams look at game film day in and day out. They see guys who are "under the radar". that is what Cinci did once the Giants released him as the Giants were "hoping" noone would realize what Kevin offered and then sign him to the practice squad and develop him. Cinci grabbed him less than 24 hours on the waiver wire and then moved him to the 53 man roster by week 4 and he was an impact player since then. Cinci signed the 1 year tener (spelling) offer to guarantee they would get something because they knew what Kevin was and thought someone would offer Kevin a contract, but as soon as FA started, Kubiak and Company had kevin an offer sheet and gave Cinci 7 days to match. Cinci waited and waited, but finally declined and Kevin is a TEXAN!!!

I know he is happy and cannot wait to start playing. I think he is going to learn so much from Moulds as he did from Toomer, Hilliard, Johnson, and TJ. The journey continues...

Brandon420tx
07-28-2006, 12:16 PM
I've always liked this acquisition of the Texans, *Armstrong who?, jk, great hands, needs more body and speed*

Now time for :drool: fantasies

3WR set, 1 TE, 1 RB
AJ, Moulds, Walters, Putzier (Or Joppru :shades: ), and DD (You know, if he isn't :crutch: )

Spread defense with threat of a run

/end :drool: fantasy