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View Full Version : How much longer for Carr?


D-Vizzl
07-24-2006, 01:22 PM
It just occured to me that if he does not do well this upcoming season I don't know which way to lean about him, so I want to know what you think, I'll explain. He has reasons that work in his favor to say give him beyond this year to get better, and things that don't. For example

1 CON is that he already has had 4 years to get something going and he has failed, on the other hand a PRO is that since their is a new coaching staff and offense, he does need time to get adjusted and comfortable with the system so it all seems to come out even on the scales.

Should David Carr rather he does well or not be given more than this year to prove himself? From your perspective

Brandon420tx
07-24-2006, 01:23 PM
He'll get at least 2 more seasons, to the joy and frustration of many on this MB.

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 01:24 PM
It just occured to me that if he does not do well this upcoming season I don't know which way to lean about him, so I want to know what you think, I'll explain. He has reasons that work in his favor to say give him beyond this year to get better, and things that don't. For example

1 CON is that he already has had 4 years to get something going and he has failed, on the other hand a PRO is that since their is a new coaching staff and offense, he does need time to get adjusted and comfortable with the system so it all seems to come out even on the scales.

Should David Carr rather he does well or not be given more than this year to prove himself? From your perspective

Well you already know where I stand I'd imagine...THIS year is too much....the idea of giving him 6,7, or 8 years to "prove himself" is ridiculous to me...he doesn't get to restart the clock on his qb 3 year learning curve...unless we dont plan on winning until sometime around 2010

OzzO
07-24-2006, 01:38 PM
Depends. Everyone's definition of "doing well" seems to vary, what's yours?

Mine generally, I'd like to see Carr head back to the middle of the pack, if not a little higher, in his stats like he had in years 2 & 3 (I think). I'd also like to see the team "rallying" around him - to the point that the O-line knows where he'll be so they can protect accordingly, the WR's know when to break a route if the blitz is coming (and that Carr can read the blitz). Also, I'd like to see that the O-coordintor has the faith to let Carr call some plays on the field as needed, or at least really communicate with Carr and the WR's to know what's happening on the field and adjust playcalling as needed.

That's the "doing well" I'd like to see.

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2006, 01:44 PM
Should David Carr rather he does well or not be given more than this year to prove himself? From your perspective

If he has another year like last year, they need to ditch him which is going to be hard to do.

This year, I just need to see improvement. I need to see a positive TD/Int differential, the highest completion percentage of his career, and over 3000 yards.

OzzO
07-24-2006, 01:51 PM
PencilNeck - he pretty much did that last year.

positive TD/int ratio - 14/11
highest completion ratio - 60.5% (just missed the previous year's highwater 61.2%)
missed 3000 yards by +/- 600 (had 3500+ in year 3)

nfl.com - Carr stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268) just as an fyi, not so much to call you out.

D-Vizzl
07-24-2006, 01:51 PM
Depends. Everyone's definition of "doing well" seems to vary, what's yours?

Mine generally, I'd like to see Carr head back to the middle of the pack, if not a little higher, in his stats like he had in years 2 & 3 (I think). I'd also like to see the team "rallying" around him - to the point that the O-line knows where he'll be so they can protect accordingly, the WR's know when to break a route if the blitz is coming (and that Carr can read the blitz). Also, I'd like to see that the O-coordintor has the faith to let Carr call some plays on the field as needed, or at least really communicate with Carr and the WR's to know what's happening on the field and adjust playcalling as needed.

That's the "doing well" I'd like to see.

For me I don't need to see 4800 yards I just want to see some high upside. He has to have at least a 2 to 1 TD to Int ratio, this says everything about decision making, and from my eyes he has to shake the fact that he believes he's going to get sacked, partner those with alot more aggressiveness in his downfield attack and he's a keeper.

Hervoyel
07-24-2006, 01:51 PM
I believe that barring any sort of early injury (to Carr or to any other major part of the offense) I'll know what I need to about Carr by week 8 of this coming season.

I'm not a David Carr critic and frankly I think a lot of his most vocal critics aren't seeing all the factors that combine to make Carr what he has been for four seasons. I know to many people that makes me some kind of apologist for Carr but if you feel that way then that's ok. You have your opinions and I have mine. What I am not is ignorant to the fact that he's now been in the league (for better or worse) for 4 seasons. This is is his 5th year as a starting NFL QB and I expect him to pick up this offense as quickly as I would expect any 4th year veteran.

Call me an apologist if you want but I know that if he's struggling in weeks 8-10 but he's getting solid protection, a running game, and his targets are healthy then we have a problem. That's when we should be seeing things start to come together. Until "around" that time I'm just not going to debate the issue with anybody in any detail. There's no point in it.

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 01:52 PM
Depends. Everyone's definition of "doing well" seems to vary, what's yours?

Mine generally, I'd like to see Carr head back to the middle of the pack, if not a little higher, in his stats like he had in years 2 & 3 (I think). I'd also like to see the team "rallying" around him - to the point that the O-line knows where he'll be so they can protect accordingly, the WR's know when to break a route if the blitz is coming (and that Carr can read the blitz). Also, I'd like to see that the O-coordintor has the faith to let Carr call some plays on the field as needed, or at least really communicate with Carr and the WR's to know what's happening on the field and adjust playcalling as needed.

That's the "doing well" I'd like to see.

i want to see W's. Ben Rothlisberger was the best qb in the nfl last year. Why? because he won the most games. I don't care how he gets it done, but i want 8-10 wins or he should be gone.

D-Vizzl
07-24-2006, 01:54 PM
I believe that barring any sort of early injury (to Carr or to any other major part of the offense) I'll know what I need to about Carr by week 8 of this coming season.

I'm not a David Carr critic and frankly I think a lot of his most vocal critics aren't seeing all the factors that combine to make Carr what he has been for four seasons. I know to many people that makes me some kind of apologist for Carr but if you feel that way then that's ok. You have your opinions and I have mine. What I am not is ignorant to the fact that he's now been in the league (for better or worse) for 4 seasons. This is is his 5th year as a starting NFL QB and I expect him to pick up this offense as quickly as I would expect any 4th year veteran.

Call me an apologist if you want but I know that if he's struggling in weeks 8-10 but he's getting solid protection, a running game, and his targets are healthy then we have a problem. That's when we should be seeing things start to come together. Until "around" that time I'm just not going to debate the issue with anybody in any detail. There's no point in it.

Totally understand, I'm sort of along those lines I just don't know how to emote it.

Titan "Tack" Fan
07-24-2006, 02:03 PM
i want to see W's. Ben Rothlisberger was the best qb in the nfl last year. Why? because he won the most games. I don't care how he gets it done, but i want 8-10 wins or he should be gone.


You get an A for the day. Good post.

GP
07-24-2006, 02:20 PM
another.......Carr.......thread.

nuff said.

HeartofHouston
07-24-2006, 02:31 PM
I will give Carr 2 more seasons at the helm to prove his worth.. Why?.. well you have to factor the situation that he's in this year..

New Head Coach + New Playbook + New Offensive System + New Wide Reciever, all of this comes into play when you're judging a quaterback.. he's got a brand new Head Coach barking his ear, probably telling him... "Forget Everything That You've Learned In the Past 4 Years".. Then you have a whole new playbook to go over learn and master. All new hot routes, all new signals, all new terminology most likely. Then he has a brand new reciever that he has to become 1 with (Moulds) they have to get their timing down and get on the same page in every situation. Then you can't forget that he probably has a brand new line up front that has to gel together before things up there fall into place.

Cause no matter how much you practice and how much TC you're involved in, there is nothing like the REAL season where everything is FULL speed and he's not throwing against.. Buchannon or Earl or Brown.. he's throwing against Brian Dawkins, Bob Sanders, Sean Taylor, Roy Williams, Donovan Darius, Nate Clements and Eugene Wilson.

I'll give this season to get used to the system at real time speed of everything.. BUT I honestly dont expect anything less than 6 or 7 wins. Then next season everything should be clicking together for him and we should be making a SERIOUS run at the playoffs..

:twocents:

HOU-TEX
07-24-2006, 02:40 PM
You get an A for the day. Good post.

Big Ben is an average QB at best. It's the team around him that got them to the bowl. You two look at it like if the QB isn't a total badass then he should be ditched.

Anyways, I'd at least give him until the end of 07 under the new staff before we start looking for QB.

chuckm
07-24-2006, 02:47 PM
i want to see W's. Ben Rothlisberger was the best qb in the nfl last year. Why? because he won the most games. I don't care how he gets it done, but i want 8-10 wins or he should be gone.


so following that logic backwards, Tom Brady was the best QB in the NFL in 2004, 2003, & 2001, Brad Johnson was the best QB in the NFL in 2002, and Trent Dilfer was the best QB in the NFL in 2000 ....

Vinny
07-24-2006, 02:48 PM
If Carr plays well....heck, let's give him a decade or so. If not, we need to look for a QB next year. Kubiak said we will go as far as Dave takes us, so this is a big year for DC.

srstex
07-24-2006, 02:56 PM
This year Carr actually has to read the darn thing, because he will use more then just pages 1-4. I have to say this year if we are 4-4 at the half way mark, Kubiak is a GOD, and keep evrybody you can, If we are 2-6, then it's time to look to replace anyone not in the top 20% of the league in their respected positions.

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 02:58 PM
so following that logic backwards, Tom Brady was the best QB in the NFL in 2004, 2003, & 2001, Brad Johnson was the best QB in the NFL in 2002, and Trent Dilfer was the best QB in the NFL in 2000 ....

Yep....you win, your good. kyle orton was great in chicago....whatever makes you win, thats all that really matters.

yourfavoritetexan42
07-24-2006, 03:08 PM
saying if carr doesn't win x amount of games is the most retarded comment i have heard. If any of you have played football you will know it takes 11 on both sides of the ball to win a game. If one offensive linemen misses a block, the qb is sacked and the play is dead, if one corner blows a coverage, thats a touchdown for the other team, one kicker misses a fg in the last 20 seconds of a game, the other team gets possesion kneels it and wins. Carr has put up average numbers the past 3 years, throw carr in the mix with the steelers, i think the steelers would have two rings, i would take carr's speed over roethlisbergers, carr's arm. And people act like roethlisberger just threw his team on his back and won the superbowl, roethlisberger sucked in the SB game. The steelers ran the ball more than anyone last year...Thats like saying for the astros since their pitching took them to the world series last year that their hitting lineup is the greatest baseball has ever seen, our hitting is sub par, we just have awesome pitching, same goes for the steelers, he had a great WR, another good WR, a great offensive line, a great running game, one of the greatest running backs of all time, the best defensive in the nfl, and one of the best coaches. HOWEVER ben roethlisberger won them a superbowl.


Don't get me wrong Ben Roethlisberger is a good player, but Great? No, is he the reason why they won? no.

Texans Horror
07-24-2006, 03:18 PM
I think Kubes brought in Sage Rosenfels partly for this. Kubes likes Sage as a QB and has been a fan of him for a while.

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/players/RoseSa00-1.php

New Coach Gary Kubiak has a high opinion of the former Dolphin stating he “has the ability in this league to be a starter some day and to be a fine quarterback”.

I think that in the coach's mind, if the one QB doesn't work out, then he has Sage to fill in next season. The Texans would then be looking for a rookie QB to train up.


I think the only reason Sage would be starting would be if DC really tanked this year and showed no promise whatsoever.

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2006, 04:10 PM
PencilNeck - he pretty much did that last year.

positive TD/int ratio - 14/11
highest completion ratio - 60.5% (just missed the previous year's highwater 61.2%)
missed 3000 yards by +/- 600 (had 3500+ in year 3)

nfl.com - Carr stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268) just as an fyi, not so much to call you out.

I'm not asking for much. :) Those stats are good enough to get a team to a Superbowl. I'd like to see more TD's and less interceptions, more yards, and a better completion percentage. But not a WHOLE lot more. He doesn't have to throw 25-30 TD's or more than 4500 yards to be successful. QB's have gotten to the SB with 10-15 TD's and 2000 yards.

Winning isn't about the QB, it's about the team.

ArlingtonTexan
07-24-2006, 04:14 PM
If Carr plays well....heck, let's give him a decade or so. If not, we need to look for a QB next year. Kubiak said we will go as far as Dave takes us, so this is a big year for DC.

This seems correct to me. Carr is being granted the opportunity to show his stuff this year, but as one of other Carr threads did show, NFL teams are not in business of granting QBs 5 years as the unceontested starter w/o wins and/or great stats whether its the QBs "fault" or not.

There lots of room in trying to determine what's acceptable or progress, and whether or not Carr gets challenged for the job, the complete boot or stays the uncontested starter.

My feeling is that the win lost total (guessing 6-8) and his performance will be in a gray area where this debate will continue during next off-season.

NoBullTexan
07-24-2006, 06:00 PM
You are all full of B.S. The firest time the team looks good, you will all forget your nasty remarks about Carr, and start calling him the next great QB in the game. You could say ya'll are just the nature of the beast. The Texans are not going to run away with the NFL this year because they are still several players from having that kind of a team. BUT they will be a team that wins as many as they lose. 8-8 is easily attainable this year. It won't be becasue of Carr, but we wouldn't have gotten there with Rosenfells, thats for sure.

Double Barrel
07-24-2006, 06:10 PM
IF the Texans have an o-line this season that can actually protect the pocket on a consistent basis, then I fully expect Carr to play as a good QB.

There have been too many factors against this team, and specifically against our QB. You could put big Ben, Manning, or Brady behind the line we've had and they'd all be on a losing team. They might have a few stats with higher numbers than DC, but I doubt they'd have any more wins on last year's team.

I honestly think our line will give Carr a chance, and this year will be the one that makes or breaks him as a Houston Texan.

hollywood_texan
07-24-2006, 06:16 PM
IFYou could put big Ben, Manning, or Brady behind the line we've had and they'd all be on a losing team.

The real question is, what would Carr do if he was Steeler, Colt, or Patriot?

Would he preform to the level of the players you stated?

That is the question.

Double Barrel
07-24-2006, 06:22 PM
The real question is, what would Carr do if he was Steeler, Colt, or Patriot?

Would he preform to the level of the players you stated?

That is the question.

That's a great question....and one I'm not touching...except to say that I think he'd have a winning record on one of those teams. :superman:

Kaiser Toro
07-24-2006, 06:24 PM
The real question is, what would Carr do if he was Steeler, Colt, or Patriot?

Would he preform to the level of the players you stated?

That is the question.

He would be a second stringer after Ben, Manning and Brady.

MorKnolle
07-24-2006, 06:37 PM
I think as long as he shows good progress this year in picking up the offense and displays his abilities that warrant the coaches considering him to be our franchise QB that he will be kept as the unquestioned starter even if our record is not as good as we are hoping. If he does completely flop this year and shows little or no sign of potential (I don't see it happening) then they will probably look for his replacement next year (we'd likely be drafting very high and could get a guy like Brady Quinn), maybe give Carr one more year then get rid of him. However, I've seen enough promise out of him in the past that I'm convinced he can be a very effective NFL QB, and I'm convinced that Kubiak will help him develop exponentially and that he will finally give Carr the pieces that he needs to succeed, both in personnel and schemes.

i want to see W's. Ben Rothlisberger was the best qb in the nfl last year. Why? because he won the most games. I don't care how he gets it done, but i want 8-10 wins or he should be gone.

Actually Peyton Manning won the most games last year at 14, if you include the playoffs then Jake Plummer also had 14 and Matt Hasselbeck had 15. Roethlisberger only won 13 including all the playoffs and Super Bowl.

TEXANRED
07-24-2006, 06:55 PM
Let me propose another question. How much longer for AJ? How many more times are we going to let him slide when he drops the sure touchdown pass or his inability to get open and beat double teams or his lack of improv when his QB gets into trouble. He is our highest paid player on the team and he doesn't even get the ball on every down, so when he does get a chance to make a play he needs to make one.

Or

How about Robinson? How many more blown coverages are we going to tolerate? Yea he can hit, but can he cover? How many more times are we going to watch an out of position Robinson tailing the play for a touchdown? We rag on Pbuc but Robinson coverage is no better.

Or

How many more times are we going to watch Wong run into the offensive line and not be able to figure our how to get to the QB? How many more times are we going to watch him tail the TE? Or get run over by the other teams RB?

Or

How many more times are we going to watch DD get out in the open running free and get run down from behind?

Or

How many more times are we going to watch Mathis with all his potential and all his speed waste it all away with his inability to catch the football and bad attitude.

Lets face it, for four years this team has been headed in the wrong direction due to the coaching staff and the powers that be. Its been no one persons fault but a collective as a team.

but thats my :twocents:

MorKnolle
07-24-2006, 07:05 PM
Let me propose another question. How much longer for AJ? How many more times are we going to let him slide when he drops the sure touchdown pass or his inability to get open and beat double teams or his lack of improv when his QB gets into trouble. He is our highest paid player on the team and he doesn't even get the ball on every down, so when he does get a chance to make a play he needs to make one.

Agreed, AJ needs to stop taking his eyes off a ball and dropping easy passes. I think the new coaching staff will get on him a lot more than the previous one did.

How about Robinson? How many more blown coverages are we going to tolerate? Yea he can hit, but can he cover? How many more times are we going to watch an out of position Robinson tailing the play for a touchdown? We rag on Pbuc but Robinson coverage is no better.

I don't agree at all on this one. I am working on rewatching the games from last year and one point of emphasis that I am noting is Dunta's coverage vs. Buchanon and Faggins, and Dunta is much, much better than either of them. I'm working on recording every man-man coverage of each of those three onto my computer, hopefully whenever I get that done I can string those together so everyone can compare. Dunta did miss some assignments but usually the opponents only complete 1 out of 2-3 passes to his man each game (if that much), whereas Buchanon and Faggins generally are the opposite and only stop 1 out of 3-5 passes.

How many more times are we going to watch Wong run into the offensive line and not be able to figure our how to get to the QB? How many more times are we going to watch him tail the TE? Or get run over by the other teams RB?

This happened too much to all of our LBs. (I posted a link to my youtube with a clip of both Greenwood and CC Brown getting stiff armed to the ground).

How many more times are we going to watch DD get out in the open running free and get run down from behind?

Not much we can do on that one.

How many more times are we going to watch Mathis with all his potential and all his speed waste it all away with his inability to catch the football and bad attitude.

Agree, hopefully that will improve.

Lets face it, for four years this team has been headed in the wrong direction due to the coaching staff and the powers that be. Its been no one persons fault but a collective as a team.

but thats my :twocents:

Once again I agree.

TwinSisters
07-24-2006, 10:35 PM
This is the last season for Carr without any amount of bravado

he is going to face
McNabb #3
Manning
Brunell
Culpepper #4 / Possible Harrington rematch as the challenger
Bledsoe
Leftwich - the other bloomer that is winning but struggling
Volek - lose this one
Eli
Some no name from Buffalo
possibly Vince Young after Volek
Brady #2
Manning #1
some scrub in Cleveland - Frye who really knows?

Winning these games are of utmost importance for Texans regardless of David Carr... but for David Carr it's another story.

Losing to both Eli and Peyton is disastor. Not only do we we have some respect to recover from Shockey... you cannot lose to Peyton and his little brother in the same season. One of those MUST be beat.

We're already known as Peyton's Ranch... we don't need that upgraded to Mannings' Ranch. That needs to be taken care of.

( for those that do not travel outside of Texas all that much, there are a few stereotypes that colour us to the rest of the world. One of them is Burt and Dolly and the Chicken Ranch. Standing witness to many heated Manning versus Brady versus Favre debates... a common barb thrown is that Manning gets to play against the Texans twice a year. Meaning all he has to do is show up to score. http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/CC/ysc1.html )

Culpepper game is going to big because Capers is on the sidelines. IF Dom makes him look like a fool... O misery heaped upon misfortune.

Bledsoe is a Cowboy game and in a small way... Chris Palmer is going to be there to smile if they win. This cannot be allowed to happen.

Volek cannot be allowed to win both games. Splitting them OKAY, but not both. Losing to Young would be not good... not good at all. Nowhere near as important as the Miami game though.

Late in the season he is going to get the chance to assert himself at the highest level. Carpe Diem ( as if he didn't already botch it several times before... fortuna still smiles upon his rear ). Winning those two games catapults him from worst to contendor in the shake-blink of two Sundays ( provided Brady and Manning are still playing ).

He gets the chance to prove he can be better then the best ( again ), but this time in back to back fashion.

Miami, Mannings ( any 3 of the option ), Cowboys, Volek ( either ) in that order of importance.

The rest of games are bonus points for the next round, but losing those four should mean boothill for good. Unless of course McNair hires Clinton's PR team... then we might as well book Carr in for 8 on hair and good looks alone.

threetoedpete
07-24-2006, 10:40 PM
If Carr plays well....heck, let's give him a decade or so. If not, we need to look for a QB next year. Kubiak said we will go as far as Dave takes us, so this is a big year for DC.
Agreed. I already stuck my neck out a few weeks ago. 27 Tds- 12 ints. Even with the schedule should get us close to 500.

Wolf
07-24-2006, 11:01 PM
NEWSFLASH!!!!!!

losing to St.Louis to a 3rd stringer wasn't Carr's fault! man we got torched:fireball:

Goldeagle
07-24-2006, 11:23 PM
It just occured to me that if he does not do well this upcoming season I don't know which way to lean about him, so I want to know what you think, I'll explain. He has reasons that work in his favor to say give him beyond this year to get better, and things that don't. For example

1 CON is that he already has had 4 years to get something going and he has failed, on the other hand a PRO is that since their is a new coaching staff and offense, he does need time to get adjusted and comfortable with the system so it all seems to come out even on the scales.

Should David Carr rather he does well or not be given more than this year to prove himself? From your perspective


Carr deserves 4 more years for the BS line and scheme he played in. I can see a Trade to the Jets and he wins the Super Bowl and every Carr doubter will be spamming the boards about how wrong it was to trade him.

Napa Auto Parts
07-24-2006, 11:55 PM
We Cant give up on carr i think if Kubiak Cant fix the broken Carr we need another coach becuase it will always be the system never david carr. :stirpot:

Hutch13
07-25-2006, 12:08 AM
I think he has two more years to prove if hes got what it takes because if he doesnt preform well this year people will say he hasnt grasped the playbook or the O-Line hasnt been preforming to par which could be true.

D-Vizzl
07-25-2006, 07:52 AM
I think he has two more years to prove if hes got what it takes because if he doesnt preform well this year people will say he hasnt grasped the playbook or the O-Line hasnt been preforming to par which could be true.

I am worried that if David struggles mightily or takes the Texans to the playoffs and struggles mightily then you could be looking at a Denver Broncos situation (team goes to the championship game, 3 months they take a QB in the first round) could happen. I will be rooting for him to do well because if he does'nt and they replace him then that's more time that we have to wait for success, and then I just might go :shoot: