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TwinSisters
07-22-2006, 12:59 AM
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

What I am looking for is to see how bad Carr ranks amongst starting QBs that played 4 straight seasons for the same team.

Using only major categories and going back to just 1960.

*Ravens - Kyle Boller in three seasons never cracked a column. Replaced for the the fourth.

Browns - Tim Couch 4 seasons and half.. zilcho.

Colts - Mike Pagel 4 seasons and traded after the fourth.

Giants - Dave Brown removed from play in his 4th season ( due to injury )

Steelers - Mark Malone 4 years as a starter and zilch.

*Raiders - Marc Wilson from 84-87 barely made adjusted yards per pass

*Falcons - Michael Vick in 3 starting seasons almost beats Carr out for the worst. He cracks 8th in his second season for adjusted yards per pass over Bledsoe in 2002.

*Jaguars - Leftwich will be starting his fourth with only one crack in 2005 at 9th in the NFL for yards adjusted per pass.

*Dolphins - Fiedler cracked #10 in TDs thrown in one season out of 4 starting. The rest was barren...


Joe Fergeson, Mike Phipps, Eric Hipple, Joey Harrington, Don Majkowski, Lynn Dickey, Joe Kapp, Bill Kenney, Mike Livingston, Bobby Herbert, Archie Manning, Ken O'Brien, Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, John Brodie, Neil O'Donnell, Tony Banks, Stan Humphries, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Gus Frerotte, Mark Rypien, and Billy Kilmer.

Every single one of those guys, that held a four year starting slot, had at least one good season cracking the top 10.

David Carr is amongst the worst 4 year starters in the history of the NFL.

Mark Malone, Tim Couch, Mike Pagel, and David Carr.
---

The odd thing I noticed about this... is that under performing QBs have held their starting spot longer post-salary cap! Wonder what that is about?

---

EDIT:

Will add this stat

there are only 3 QBs in the NFL since 1960 that have held their starting job after 4 straight losing seasons

Dan Fouts Chargers 73-76 ( injured for 77 .500 season, winning season 78 )
made 3rd in completions his 4th season 76'

Vinny Testaverde Bucs 88-92 5 seasons ( traded to Cleveland on his 6th )
Who knows? Maybe because of the "U"? 14 seasons starting, 4 with a winning record

Archie Manning 77-81 ( was the starter earlier too, but had a break in 76`with injury )
1st in completions in 72 as full-time starter

Bobo
07-22-2006, 01:58 AM
Compare apples with apples -- Carr has been with an expansion team for the first four years. For some reason, folks don't seem to realize this.

TK_Gamer
07-22-2006, 03:07 AM
wierd that most of the sports writers and coaches think Carr still has what it takes to be a great QB and blame the coaching/o-line/system but you would rather bash Carr, oh well, whatever blows yer skirt up, so to speak..

Coach C.
07-22-2006, 05:18 AM
Problem in your theory because Carr and Vick have both cracked the top 10 in rushing for a QB so does that not make all your work null and void. Good start though and would likely prove alot if done in a spreadsheet with stats and tendencies plotted out. If you come up with that email it to me cause I would love to take a look at it.

TwinSisters
07-22-2006, 07:54 AM
Problem in your theory because Carr and Vick have both cracked the top 10 in rushing for a QB so does that not make all your work null and void. Good start though and would likely prove alot if done in a spreadsheet with stats and tendencies plotted out. If you come up with that email it to me cause I would love to take a look at it.

Not really. Because if you factor in rushes, then you have to factor in sacks and yards lost. Which would then push Carr back into negative yards.

He has 208 for 1226 at 5.8 per attempt going backwards and 215 for 1040 at 4.8 going forward.

Vick on the other hand is 406 for 2082 at 6.9 going forward and 142 for 850 at 5.9 going backwards.

that's a net gain of 1232 ( more than Carr's gross )

Carr as only one season moving forward and that is for less than a hundred yards.

Couldn't really compare them with older QBs because they didn't count sacks/rushing attempts the same. Either way these other QBs from the past 40 years that started for 4 years or more did something in that period that earned them a top 10 spot in a category that remotely matters; completions, wins, yards, TDs, playoffs, non-losing seasons, or even attempts to throw.

Archie didn't have a great line, Fouts didn't have a great coach, Vinny had a horrible team, but he was still able to crack the top ten in yards his first season.

---

As for sports writers:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/players/01/04/sacked0109/index.html

Carr, who was sacked a league-high 68 times this season, knows when one is coming. "On the road the crowd gets louder. At home the crowd kind of gives an oohh," he says. "The biggest thing is that you know there's nothing you can do about it. The last two feet before he gets to you, you're just trying to get down, make yourself tiny and see if you can avoid a big one. Then you've got to bounce up faster than the guy who sacked you to show them your team is not defeated."

Hmmm nothing you can do about it?


"I felt like we were playing to our potential today," David Carr said after the narrow loss to the Bengals. Sacked seven times. Playing to their potential. God help them.

Dr.Z
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/dr_z/10/05/ranks.week4.part2/index.html

This is good because 3 out 4 Americans believe in miracles.
---
Joe Montana, Hall of Fame quarterback and amongst the greatest to ever play the position, what's his assessment of Carr's past 4 years?

"hadn't done anything." - Joe on Dave

TheCD
07-22-2006, 08:41 AM
The problem that I have with your contention of those teams is that the only one that had a comparable situation to us was Tim Couch and the Browns, them also being an expansion team. Obviously we've have offensive line problems, and I'll take a bet with you any day that a team with major offensive line problems like ours will never garner better than a .500 record until those problems are fixed.

There's a reason why just about everyone in the professional sports community thinks Carr has what it takes...maybe you'd see that something too if you had as much experience as they do.

NATHANHALE
07-22-2006, 08:48 AM
I'm anxiously waiting for the Carr:homer: 's to flood this thread, though I'm enjoying it! IMO, this thread will be 'special,' TWINSISTERS, because you are very good at come backs and you can usually back-up your statements. Initally, I think this post will 'shock' some people because they consider it 'taboo' to say anything negative about Carr anytime-anywhere-anyplace. I can only hope that we hear some new responses to this thread and not the same old excuses for David that we all know 'by heart.'

This team is never going to win with a QB that can only function when 'everything' around him is 'perfect.' Several posters have attempted-before being 'lambasted'-to discuss the intangible concept of 'it.' The greatest QBs of all times (Unitas,Starr,Staubach,Montanna,etc.) were not always the 'proto type' player with all the physical attributes, but they had 'it'-whatever it took to win. They inspired those around them with a confidence and performance that never ever was based on failure or excuses. And, the 'buck' stopped with them. Unitas,especially, defies the definition of a #1 drafted QB (which he was not). He was nothing special coming out of Louisville but went on to 'greatness' in the NFL. Tall and gangly, he was not a runner or a strong-armed thrower but he had 'it.'

Carr's legacy entering his 5th year is that he has been unable to perform his best because of the 'circumstances' around him. He has not even been expected to do well when all was OK around him, an unfortunate result of zero accountability. One has to wonder now-in this 5th year with so much change around him-if Carr can find 'it.' IMO, it will be very sad --regardless of anything else this season--if 'accountabilty' is still not part of the equation...

NATHANHALE
07-22-2006, 08:57 AM
"There's a reason why just about everyone in the professional sports community thinks Carr has what it takes...maybe you'd see that something too if you had as much experience as they do."

There have been a lot of first round QBs that have failed (George,Smith,Dilfer,Couch,Klinger,Ware,etc.)--you don't think these same 'sports folks' did not say the same things about them? IMO, this statement is not an indicator of 'anything.'

the wonger need food
07-22-2006, 09:06 AM
And to make it even scarier, Tim Couch had better stats and a better record than Carr while in the same situation. I'd look for those 2 to be playing golf together on Sundays in the near future.

TexansLucky13
07-22-2006, 09:45 AM
Another Carr thread! :hides:

Before you can start a serious Carr thread, you must think about some things first. If everyone did just that, there would be a tenth of the number of Carr threads on this MB. Let's begin.

First, what do you think of Joey Harrington?

Secondly, what division are we in?

Third, how many years have the Texans been in existance?

Answer those for me and maybe you can see where I am coming from. Actually, nevermind. I don't expect you to have any idea where my argument is coming from. I will write a follow up after next season.

bkimble
07-22-2006, 09:49 AM
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

What I am looking for is to see how bad Carr ranks amongst starting QBs that played 4 straight seasons for the same team.

Using only major categories and going back to just 1960.

*Ravens - Kyle Boller in three seasons never cracked a column. Replaced for the the fourth.

Browns - Tim Couch 4 seasons and half.. zilcho.

Colts - Mike Pagel 4 seasons and traded after the fourth.

Giants - Dave Brown removed from play in his 4th season ( due to injury )

Steelers - Mark Malone 4 years as a starter and zilch.

*Raiders - Marc Wilson from 84-87 barely made adjusted yards per pass

*Falcons - Michael Vick in 3 starting seasons almost beats Carr out for the worst. He cracks 8th in his second season for adjusted yards per pass over Bledsoe in 2002.

*Jaguars - Leftwich will be starting his fourth with only one crack in 2005 at 9th in the NFL for yards adjusted per pass.

*Dolphins - Fiedler cracked #10 in TDs thrown in one season out of 4 starting. The rest was barren...


Joe Fergeson, Mike Phipps, Eric Hipple, Joey Harrington, Don Majkowski, Lynn Dickey, Joe Kapp, Bill Kenney, Mike Livingston, Bobby Herbert, Archie Manning, Ken O'Brien, Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, John Brodie, Neil O'Donnell, Tony Banks, Stan Humphries, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Gus Frerotte, Mark Rypien, and Billy Kilmer.

Every single one of those guys, that held a four year starting slot, had at least one good season cracking the top 10.

David Carr is amongst the worst 4 year starters in the history of the NFL.

Mark Malone, Tim Couch, Mike Pagel, and David Carr.
---

The odd thing I noticed about this... is that under performing QBs have held their starting spot longer post-salary cap! Wonder what that is about?

---

EDIT:

Will add this stat

there are only 3 QBs in the NFL since 1960 that have held their starting job after 4 straight losing seasons

Dan Fouts Chargers 73-76 ( injured for 77 .500 season, winning season 78 )
made 3rd in completions his 4th season 76'

Vinny Testaverde Bucs 88-92 5 seasons ( traded to Cleveland on his 6th )
Who knows? Maybe because of the "U"? 14 seasons starting, 4 with a winning record

Archie Manning 77-81 ( was the starter earlier too, but had a break in 76`with injury )
1st in completions in 72 as full-time starter

Twinsisters this is a great article. This is exactly what I've been saying for the last 4 years about Carrs. But, here's another point to ponder Daivd Carr is probably the only QB in NFL history to be rewarded with a 8 million dollars bonus and a new contract after having 4 losing seasons in a row and one of the worst QB rating ever recorded. Now, that's amazing!
:hides:

Texans86
07-22-2006, 10:25 AM
And to make it even scarier, Tim Couch had better stats and a better record than Carr while in the same situation. I'd look for those 2 to be playing golf together on Sundays in the near future.

Tim Couch has no shoulder left after multiple surgeries. Did you count career ending injuries towards your statistics. If you hadn't read around the league the last couple of years, he had major surgery on his shoulder and lasic surgery on his eyes, both reasons he claims to have failed in Cleveland. Couch has been given a couple test runs through the past couple of off seasons, but he will never make it back to the NFL. It's little things like this that ruin statistics.



There have been a lot of first round QBs that have failed (George,Smith,Dilfer,Couch,Klinger,Ware,etc.)--you don't think these same 'sports folks' did not say the same things about them? IMO, this statement is not an indicator of 'anything.'

Actually no, analysts don't give them much time. Look at recent picks, Joey Harrington was considered a bust after 3 years, because he was given talent and did nothing with it. J.P. Losman is getting flack from most of the "sports guys" and he's only in year 2. Basically, these guys can see talent. I remember reading an artircle on Carr a few months back, (I wish I could find it), which basically said that only three prototypoe quarterbacks have come out in the last 10 years, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer and David Carr. That's some pretty elite company. Carr has a cannon, can move and had very little talent and coaching for 4 years. Stats can't show that.

the wonger need food
07-22-2006, 10:36 AM
Tim Couch has no shoulder left after multiple surgeries. Did you count career ending injuries towards your statistics. If you hadn't read around the league the last couple of years, he had major surgery on his shoulder and lasic surgery on his eyes, both reasons he claims to have failed in Cleveland.

All of those physical issues and he was still better than Carr. That makes it even scarier.

disaacks3
07-22-2006, 10:42 AM
A BIG fact, that's conveniently overlooked for this little comparison is the changes in NFL scheduling.

Carr is the only QB in that list to have to take an expansion team through its beginning years w/o the benefit of a TRUE SoS adjustment.

Since the NFL wanted to make sure that EVERY team in EVERY division played each other every x years, it subsequently left only 2 GAMES to adjust for the previous years success / failure.

As a result, this year's Texans have to play the 8th hardest schedule in the NFL, despite finishing last season ranked #32.

To re-iterate the point TL13 was making, being in the AFC South has added to Carr's woes, since the Texans aren't getting the schedule adjustments that they would have in years past.

...don't even get me started on our O-Line , blocking scheme changes, etc.:brickwall

the wonger need food
07-22-2006, 10:48 AM
A BIG fact, that's conveniently overlooked for this little comparison is the changes in NFL scheduling.

Carr is the only QB in that list to have to take an expansion team through its beginning years w/o the benefit of a TRUE SoS adjustment.

Since the NFL wanted to make sure that EVERY team in EVERY division played each other every x years, it subsequently left only 2 GAMES to adjust for the previous years success / failure.

As a result, this year's Texans have to play the 8th hardest schedule in the NFL, despite finishing last season ranked #32.

To re-iterate the point TL13 was making, being in the AFC South has added to Carr's woes, since the Texans aren't getting the schedule adjustments that they would have in years past.

...don't even get me started on our O-Line , blocking scheme changes, etc.:brickwall


This is the most original excuse that I've seen, probably ever. Well played...

Second Honeymoon
07-22-2006, 11:09 AM
Wow, someone has facts to support the fact that Carr sucks. What a surprise. Now you are going to tell me that the sky is blue. Bottom line is this franchise has pinned their hopes on this horrible QB and we have to make due until they finally realize the guy is a worthless pile of dog excrement. He doesnt have the dedication it takes to be a quality NFL quarterback and should look into modeling or becoming a preacher.

Doug from the Woodlands

GP
07-22-2006, 11:14 AM
THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.

Thanks again for the top-notch analysis. :shades:

BradK10
07-22-2006, 11:26 AM
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...




No....it's not.

CloakNNNdagger
07-22-2006, 11:26 AM
I'm not one who hates or loves Carr. But I certainly feel that he should get a chance in his new environment. We all know that our kids grow up much in the mold of their mentor parents. Carr was a "kid" when he entered the NFL........his "parents" in many ways abandoned him and have been discredited of being good parents from a myriad of perspectives. Particularly telling......most have disappeared into anonymity. So yes, I am willing to allow him this year to see if he is able to fly, or or die under the tutelage of his new more discipline-oriented "stepparents."

RTP2110
07-22-2006, 11:47 AM
THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.
Thanks again for the top-notch analysis. :shades:


I've actually thought of doing the same thing. While I'm not a Carr ''homer'', I do still have confidence in him to be a sucessful QB. So I'm really curious as to what all the Carr haters responces would be if Carr does turn it around.

OzzO
07-22-2006, 11:50 AM
Straight from the NFL scout report (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2002/profiles/carr_david.htm)
Positives: Strong, well-built athlete with good body definition (rangy) … Sets up quickly and is ready to throw in an instant … Has good mechanics and an incredibly fast release … Shows accuracy on his long tosses and has a very lively arm in the short areas … Very composed under pressure, in the Brett Favre mold … Mature and confident field leader who is well-respected by teammates and very competitive with the opposition … Tactful in his actions, but will not hesitate to "correct" a teammate when needed … Throws a catchable ball, putting impressive touch with zip to make it easy for his receivers to haul in the ball … Displays tremendous velocity with proper timing when he airs out the long bomb, getting optimum effort behind his powerful arm … Has the vision to easily pick up the stunts and scans the field well, feeling the pressure quickly to avoid the rush while maintaining his composure … Has a three-step release point and will take the sack rather than force the ball into traffic … Shows the ability to locate the secondary targets when the primary ones are covered … Very effective scrambler in the Donovan McNabb mold, but his maturity allows him to be patient as he first waits for the play to develop … Throws the ball with a tight spiral and makes proper reads when scanning downfield … Can throw off his back foot when making his drops … Sets, drifts and settles in the pocket, displaying a soft touch to feather the ball over the defender's head … Makes proper checks at the line and is very alert in avoiding the rush … Has good rotation on the ball … When sequencing through his receivers, he can drop his arm to three-quarters and zing the ball.
Negatives: While he shows accuracy on his long passes, his arm strength is adequate, as he tends to arc his deep attempts … Holds the ball too long, inviting the sack, rather than dumping it off or throwing it away … Makes proper checks, but does not have a variety of throws … Needs to improve his pass drop, as he does a lot of three-step motion and will hold the ball a little too long, taking the sack rather than throwing it away.

There, so now you know the negatives and positives of Carr. Agree with the poster above, I'd like to see how he does away from "Capers ball" of run, run, avoid the sack, punt. At least for a season.

LBC_Justin
07-22-2006, 12:04 PM
There is one major flaw in your logic.

You are measuring how good a QB is based on the team's win/loss record. This is the ultimate team sport. Let's not forget this.

How long have the Texans been around?
How has the Texans Defense ranked the last four years?
How good has the O-line been?
How good have the recievers been?
How good was the coaching?
How much experience does our owner have?

You can call these excuses all you want but like it or not they matter. Just ask Big Ben in Pittsburgh.

PS: Carr is ok, I need to actually see him do something before I praise him.

Wolf
07-22-2006, 12:46 PM
I'm anxiously waiting for the Carr:homer: 's to flood this thread, though I'm enjoying it! IMO, this thread will be 'special,' TWINSISTERS, because you are very good at come backs and you can usually back-up your statements. Initally, I think this post will 'shock' some people because they consider it 'taboo' to say anything negative about Carr anytime-anywhere-anyplace. I can only hope that we hear some new responses to this thread and not the same old excuses for David that we all know 'by heart.'

This team is never going to win with a QB that can only function when 'everything' around him is 'perfect.' Several posters have attempted-before being 'lambasted'-to discuss the intangible concept of 'it.' The greatest QBs of all times (Unitas,Starr,Staubach,Montanna,etc.) were not always the 'proto type' player with all the physical attributes, but they had 'it'-whatever it took to win. They inspired those around them with a confidence and performance that never ever was based on failure or excuses. And, the 'buck' stopped with them. Unitas,especially, defies the definition of a #1 drafted QB (which he was not). He was nothing special coming out of Louisville but went on to 'greatness' in the NFL. Tall and gangly, he was not a runner or a strong-armed thrower but he had 'it.'

Carr's legacy entering his 5th year is that he has been unable to perform his best because of the 'circumstances' around him. He has not even been expected to do well when all was OK around him, an unfortunate result of zero accountability. One has to wonder now-in this 5th year with so much change around him-if Carr can find 'it.' IMO, it will be very sad --regardless of anything else this season--if 'accountabilty' is still not part of the equation...


I take it that you wrote this to get a response on the other side of the pendellum

well I'll stop the ball from swinging in the middle here.

some on this board don't think Carr is the 2nd coming of Dan Marino or Joe Montana or anything like that.. Some of us feel that he is a QB that can make pretty much every throw that is required in the NFL. If you don't believe it look up the video's in the bullpen section. HOWEVER, I feel and (I really can't speak for everyone) others feel that the problem is within Carr's head. And how can anyone blame him, 200+ sacks and who knows how many hits while throwing will mess ANY QB that is in league, even the great Montana.. With that said.. Kubiak is the man that has to get into David's head and get him to have that cocky swagger that a QB has to have (just like Garner needs to get into Brad Lidge's head) and to trust his teammates and his teammates trust him. If Kubiak can't do that, well McNair made a gamble that didn't pay off (keeping Carr) and Dan Reeves made a mistake watching game film on Carr and gave the wrong advice.. it could happen.
and if that is the case Brady Quinn here we come.

As far as your "perfect" statement.. I don't buy that (and that is probably a ploy just to get the homers to bite.. some of us don't think the situation has to be perfect. but looking at the history of this franchise, we took lumps (i.e. injuries and bad luck) that every franchise takes, It is just that an expansion team can't afford to have them due to depth problems. To play the what if game.. I can't imagine what this franchise would be like right now (well I know we wouldn't have had these types of threads) if ryan young would have panned out at RT like he should have and Boselli would have been healed going into the 2003 season (we'd still would have drafted AJ) I am not making an excuse,it is the OL problems that have plagued us would not have been a problem. imagine 2003, Boselli,Pitts,Mckinney,weigart,Young.. I am not saying Carr would have been an All-pro, but the game surely would have slowed down for him. When you have OL problems that really limits the playbook.

As far as perfect for him.. IMO the problems with the passing game starts with TE, when a team has TE's that can't block and catch at the same time, that is a problem. I am not expecting the next Tony Gonzales or even Dave Casper, but at least someone that a defense can't half way guess what we are doing based on what TE we have.. now to WR's...not that Bradford.. makes the spectacular catches and yet makes the spectacular drops.. I don't know how anyone can defend Bradford due to the fact that without a legit TE and bradford that equals constant double teams on AJ .. And without a legit TE means constant cover 2 defense that the Texans have historically not able to beat.

Coaching. now I am obviously not a coach, yet many Sundays how many times have y'all picked the play that was going to be run by the Texans? And if we picked it, I know that the teams keep tendency charts on other teams in certain situations.. The drafting philosopy of the Texans didn't match the style of play that the Texans ran.. round peg in a square hole syndrome. Capers likes the big OL and pound the ball, yet we drafted a gunslinging QB and a Talented WR high in the draft (not bashing the drafting of these two,just saying) and can't really utilize them. 2004 we did, we got AJ the ball where he could catch it and keep running, 2005 well hooks and hitches don't really help someone like AJ that is a threat if he gets the ball while moving downfield I liked Capers as a DC but HC ...but his choice of assistants ..hmm

Wolf
07-22-2006, 12:57 PM
There is one major flaw in your logic.

You are measuring how good a QB is based on the team's win/loss record. This is the ultimate team sport. Let's not forget this.

How long have the Texans been around?
my previous post talked about injuries and depth on that and imagine how the franchise could have been
How has the Texans Defense ranked the last four years?
yeah, I never thought a Capers team would have a defense ranked 30ish..To this day I don't know why Capers didn't take over the playcalling of the defense)
How good has the O-line been?
speaks for itself, and we will see what difference Sherman will make over Pendry

How good have the recievers been?
my previous post explained my thought on that.. not having a two way TE in hurts
How good was the coaching?
Well for me I liked Capers as a DC. People on this board bashed Palmer and bashed Palmer from day one, yet Fangio had the experience players on defense and somehow he wasn't held accountable. Walker,Payne,Sharper,Coleman,Glenn.. I mean wow out out 11 guys..Walker,Glenn were ex-probowlers and Sharper was above average (IMO)
Coleman and Payne were solid .... Yet offensively we take our horrible OL and the coach and reward him with taking over the offensive coordinator duties.
[quote]How much experience does our owner have?

That one I don't really know how to answer that. Some owners are hands on some stay out of it

You can call these excuses all you want but like it or not they matter. Just ask Big Ben in Pittsburgh.

PS: Carr is ok, I need to actually see him do something before I praise him.

overall, I agree these were big problems

Doom Capers
07-22-2006, 01:15 PM
this is a 0/10 thread

NATHANHALE
07-22-2006, 02:17 PM
THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.

Thanks again for the top-notch analysis. :shades:

You said 'if' and not 'when.' 'C mon, now, where's that confidence? Problem,here, is that you don't get it---folks would love for Carr to 'show up,' and they won't run and hide like the -well you know-- did last year. Please. Please, David--have a 'great' year and deliver us from the 'land of the excuses.' High gas prices and excuses--something has to 'go away.'

Wolf
07-22-2006, 02:29 PM
You said 'if' and not 'when.' 'C mon, now, where's that confidence? Problem,here, is that you don't get it---folks would love for Carr to 'show up,' and they won't run and hide like the -well you know-- did last year. Please. Please, David--have a 'great' year and deliver us from the 'land of the excuses.' High gas prices and excuses--something has to 'go away.'


you put in "great" .. what is great?

NATHANHALE
07-22-2006, 02:46 PM
you put in "great" .. what is great?

'Great' is the kind of year where Carr's performance/results has everyone talking about and saying, "Now, there's the David Carr we've been waiting for"- a year that ends once and for all the debate over whether Carr is the 'man.'...and, finally, a 'great' year stops the excuses.

Carr does not have to lead the league in passing for it to be a 'great' year for him--his stats don't have to be 'off the wall'--actually, 'great' here is an 'intangible' that suggest that maybe Carr does have 'it,' after all.

TexansLucky13
07-22-2006, 03:00 PM
You can call these excuses all you want but like it or not they matter. Just ask Big Ben in Pittsburgh.

That statement right there is the ultimate Anti-Carrbasher.

Big Ben Rottenburger played like such a rookie in the SB last year that I almost died watching it. Matter of fact... the entire playoffs last year showed poor QBing. Brady and Rottenburger played like rookies and Eli Manning got owned (ahaha). Don't even get me started on Chris Simms....

You people who relate W-L to QBs as if it is their sole responsibility are killing me. I'm not a Carr lover but I will defend his position any day of the week, just because all the anti-Carr arguments are so lame! Just go ahead and admit that you resent us passing VY, or maybe you wanted Harrington for our first draft? Who knows with you guys.

edo783
07-22-2006, 03:00 PM
Out of 31 posts, some 25 have been by the anti-carr crowd. Most post though have been by two trolls and some folks just keep feeding them.

Wolf
07-22-2006, 03:03 PM
well the "great" is something that can be debated over and over.

there are different levels of great.. It can be stat wise Dan marino,dan fouts etc,etc.. or it can be Joe Montana where he just wins..


however with the addition of Moulds and some TE's .. this has to improve for david carr.. and should with more talent down close.

inside the redzone.. only 8 TD's with 57 attempts. ..Matt Hassellback had 55 attempts and 16 TD's

http://footballguys.com/05week17qbredzone.php


let me clarrify though... the TEAM has to improve
Carr did complete a little over 50 percent of his passes in the RZ .. the team needs to improve and should with Putzer and Joppru and company


some other stats
http://footballguys.com/stats.htm

Grid
07-22-2006, 03:25 PM
how does Carr rank among QBs on expansion teams with terrible offensive lines and extremely defensive minded coaches that prefer to use a running offense, but refuse to invest in the proper personell to do so?

in a few hundred more years.. we may have enough information that we can compare a player against other players that were in similar situations in the past.. but probably not. Carr's situation is different.. and because of that..you cannot compare him to other QBs who have been in situations that are hardly comparable to his.

Instead of focusing on what you can deduce through statistical evidence.. you should be focusing on what you have seen with your own eyes.

But you wont.. and people will still look at Carr and go "omg his stats are worse than <insert bad QB from 10 years ago>".

Whatever.. Carr will either solidify his position as our starting QB over the next couple seasons..or he will be replaced.. no amount of whining and worrying on our part is gonna change that.. and im not going to sit here and dog on him, trying to get some idea of the magnitude of his suckyness.

CloakNNNdagger
07-22-2006, 03:35 PM
On Radio 790, just about 45 minnutes ago (did anyone catch it, I was in the car) they were reviewing the 2006 teams and when they came to the Texans, their entire focus was on Carr. There was nothing but accolades about his mental and physical toughness. They felt that most QB's under the circumstances would not have made it this far. They said that he had a canon for an arm and that they expected that under the guidance of Kubiak et al, their new scheme, and Carr's new supporting cast, he would show the world that he is one of the top QB's in the league, and that he would be around for a long time. They did not think in terms of ProBowl at this time, since the AFC was so filled with high powered guns, but that he would stand out.

texan279
07-22-2006, 03:39 PM
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

What I am looking for is to see how bad Carr ranks amongst starting QBs that played 4 straight seasons for the same team.

Using only major categories and going back to just 1960.

*Ravens - Kyle Boller in three seasons never cracked a column. Replaced for the the fourth.

Browns - Tim Couch 4 seasons and half.. zilcho.

Colts - Mike Pagel 4 seasons and traded after the fourth.

Giants - Dave Brown removed from play in his 4th season ( due to injury )

Steelers - Mark Malone 4 years as a starter and zilch.

*Raiders - Marc Wilson from 84-87 barely made adjusted yards per pass

*Falcons - Michael Vick in 3 starting seasons almost beats Carr out for the worst. He cracks 8th in his second season for adjusted yards per pass over Bledsoe in 2002.

*Jaguars - Leftwich will be starting his fourth with only one crack in 2005 at 9th in the NFL for yards adjusted per pass.

*Dolphins - Fiedler cracked #10 in TDs thrown in one season out of 4 starting. The rest was barren...


Joe Fergeson, Mike Phipps, Eric Hipple, Joey Harrington, Don Majkowski, Lynn Dickey, Joe Kapp, Bill Kenney, Mike Livingston, Bobby Herbert, Archie Manning, Ken O'Brien, Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, John Brodie, Neil O'Donnell, Tony Banks, Stan Humphries, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Gus Frerotte, Mark Rypien, and Billy Kilmer.

Every single one of those guys, that held a four year starting slot, had at least one good season cracking the top 10.

David Carr is amongst the worst 4 year starters in the history of the NFL.

Mark Malone, Tim Couch, Mike Pagel, and David Carr.
---

The odd thing I noticed about this... is that under performing QBs have held their starting spot longer post-salary cap! Wonder what that is about?

---

EDIT:

Will add this stat

there are only 3 QBs in the NFL since 1960 that have held their starting job after 4 straight losing seasons

Dan Fouts Chargers 73-76 ( injured for 77 .500 season, winning season 78 )
made 3rd in completions his 4th season 76'

Vinny Testaverde Bucs 88-92 5 seasons ( traded to Cleveland on his 6th )
Who knows? Maybe because of the "U"? 14 seasons starting, 4 with a winning record

Archie Manning 77-81 ( was the starter earlier too, but had a break in 76`with injury )
1st in completions in 72 as full-time starter

You can't judge whether Carr will be a good QB based on him "cracking a column"...

texflex513
07-22-2006, 03:46 PM
Twinsisters this is a great article. This is exactly what I've been saying for the last 4 years about Carrs. But, here's another point to ponder Daivd Carr is probably the only QB in NFL history to be rewarded with a 8 million dollars bonus and a new contract after having 4 losing seasons in a row and one of the worst QB rating ever recorded. Now, that's amazing!
:hides:


losing seasons are not placed on a QB's shoulders alone and carr has an average of 73.7 QB rating in his 4 seasons The 1st 2 yrs were bad the last 2 were decent. i say thats pretty good for a guy who has had to go thru what he has with no blocking Brady/Favre/Manning any of those guys would have had just as many problems. Give the guy a chance with a O line who has worked together and has chemistry instead of a patch work line of guys who didnt know where they'll line up every week:twocents:

Hervoyel
07-22-2006, 06:07 PM
I'd add a response to this thread but I don't really have one to give at this time. I won't have an opinion about David Carr until this season has progressed to a point where I can make some educated deductions. Right now I don't think much of what I'm reading about David Carr in here is worth the time it took to type it. That includes threads bashing him as well as praising him.

I need to see him play under a non Palmer/Pendry system to be completely sure of what I'm seeing. Until then I have not much to say on this.

texan279
07-22-2006, 06:16 PM
I'd add a response to this thread but I don't really have one to give at this time. I won't have an opinion about David Carr until this season has progressed to a point where I can make some educated deductions. Right now I don't think much of what I'm reading about David Carr in here is worth the time it took to type it. That includes threads bashing him as well as praising him.

I need to see him play under a non Palmer/Pendry system to be completely sure of what I'm seeing. Until then I have not much to say on this.

Thanks for putting some sanity into the whole Carr thing. I don't think we can use the last 4 seasons to judge Carr or anyone else for that matter on the team for numerous reasons.

Sco-tai
07-22-2006, 06:17 PM
Yo, Twisted Sister...or..twin...whatever.

If you're gonna scrounge through stats for the WORST after 4....why don't you do yourself a favor and research the BEST after 3.

GRANTED...LAST YEAR was awful. I STILL have the empty bottles of asprin from the headaches those games caused.

And we could go ON AND ON about why/who/what is to blame for 2005. But after 3 years...Carr was among the best in MANY categories. The only one that really beat Carr after 3 was Marino (but go figure, right).

Back off a bit, my friend.

2006 will be the ultimate test. Until then, I'd call it an "incomplete" at this point.

And if Carr is as bad as some would like to claim as FACT, then in 2006 we have a few awesome QB's to pick from....Kolb & Quinn come to mind immediately.

Until 2006 is in the books...Carr & the Texans have my FULL support!

Go Texans!

DSP

jerek
07-22-2006, 06:40 PM
This is an example of finding obscure stats for "analysis" to paint a predetermined conclusion.

As much as you might like us to believe that you were sincerely interested in a comparative analysis of quarterback skill (through the obviously relevant "starting QBs who played four straight seasons for the same team") ... I don't believe it. I think you don't like Carr and wanted to find something to prove that he is a "bad QB" ... which to your credit, this is at least a creative approach. Since basic QB rating or passing statistics, let alone career W-L, don't put Carr anywhere near the "among the worst" in the league (he's been middle of the pack over those four years) ... guess you had to go this route.

This belongs right up there with the "Vince Young is the superior QB because he won a college championship" argument. Never mind factors like caliber of teammates, coaching, strength of schedule; that obscure part of football known as "team."

No one, least of all me, is denying that Carr hasn't really lived up to "potential" or even expectations yet; Carr, Kubiak and McNair have publicly said as much. I just don't get why people keep wanting to pretend that he's been given a remotely servicable opportunity to do so.

RTP2110
07-22-2006, 06:41 PM
On Radio 790, just about 45 minnutes ago (did anyone catch it, I was in the car) they were reviewing the 2006 teams and when they came to the Texans, their entire focus was on Carr. There was nothing but accolades about his mental and physical toughness. They felt that most QB's under the circumstances would not have made it this far. They said that he had a canon for an arm and that they expected that under the guidance of Kubiak et al, their new scheme, and Carr's new supporting cast, he would show the world that he is one of the top QB's in the league, and that he would be around for a long time. They did not think in terms of ProBowl at this time, since the AFC was so filled with high powered guns, but that he would stand out.


That seems to be a common perception of Carr at this point by many other sports reporters, NFL coaches, Dan Reeves, and Gary Kubiak. I guess that's not enough for some people though.

NATHANHALE
07-22-2006, 07:10 PM
Straight from the NFL scout report (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2002/profiles/carr_david.htm)


There, so now you know the negatives and positives of Carr. Agree with the poster above, I'd like to see how he does away from "Capers ball" of run, run, avoid the sack, punt. At least for a season.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/warroom/1997/value_board/top100.html

Ryan Leaf (NFL's Biggest Bust?) scored ahead of Peyton Manning in the 1998 NFL Draft. Your profile about Carr lists among his strengths many items that are considered among his weaknesses in the NFL-holds onto the ball,slow decision making,slow release,etc. What happened? Great stats and glowing profiles don't always 'translate to success on the field...

OzzO
07-22-2006, 07:16 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/warroom/1997/value_board/top100.html

Ryan Leaf (NFL's Biggest Bust?) scored ahead of Peyton Manning in the 1998 NFL Draft. Your profile about Carr lists among his strengths many items that are considered among his weaknesses in the NFL-holds onto the ball,slow decision making,slow release,etc. What happened? Great stats and glowing profiles don't always 'translate to success on the field...

...and? Thanks for the exception - what about the other top drafted players from the past that DID translate to the NFL? I guess Bush and Young aren't gonna translate as well - considering how well they did in college.

Buzz
07-22-2006, 07:31 PM
I guess some people have forgotten what Kubiak did for Plummer in Denver, helping to make a better player out of a guy who was in a bad situation and disliked by some people in Arizona. I expect him to so the same thing for Carr now that he's here. Also, I think the "that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger" thing applies here, so all these years of being knocked on his butt by defenders and coming back for more have given him not just physical toughness but mental persistence. When he gets to the point where he has confidence that his O line is decent and will give him enough time to get things done on a tough drive, I bet he will have that little bit of oomph, so to speak, that gives him an advantage.

NATHANHALE
07-22-2006, 07:51 PM
"And we could go ON AND ON about why/who/what is to blame for 2005. But after 3 years...Carr was among the best in MANY categories. The only one that really beat Carr after 3 was Marino (but go figure, right).'

Why don't you try backing up your posts with facts/sources, instead of BS. I needed 2 pair of boots to read the statements above-- name a few of the 'many categories' and your Marino statement/what is this?

NATHANHALE
07-22-2006, 07:58 PM
"I guess Bush and Young aren't gonna translate as well - considering how well they did in college."

...what is this? your prediction? What does 'how well they did in college' mean? HELL-O--no one gets into the NFL unless they did well in college, but there are no guarantees that 'doing well in college' means a sucessful NFL career...geezzzzzzzz

Texanfan4ever
07-22-2006, 08:01 PM
Are ya'll seriously talking about this again? Do you not have anything better to do? Hey, new idea for you negative glass half empty types --- How bout something POSITIVE about someone you Carr haters love.... Try some positive stuff, you might be surprised how you feel when you are done. You all make me tired!

P.S. Can't wait until you are sucking back up....someone keep a Carr basher list so we can gloat!

texan279
07-22-2006, 08:07 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/wookiee.jpg

dat_boy_yec
07-22-2006, 08:09 PM
You forgot the stat of.... How many receivers the QB had to hit on the back of the helmet. If that don't tell you something then I dunno what will. Saying Carr is a horrible QB is bias, because he isn't. Alex Smith had a horrendous yr. Carr never had anything close to Smith's yet you wanna sit there and say Carr is one of the worst QB's of all time. Get off it man, how can you seriously sit there seeing the big picture home in on Carr and lay the blame on him like that. It's even been stated that receiver's didn't adjust their routes when Carr was in trouble. How successful would Manning be without that aspect of the game. I mean you make it sound like. Oh, it's okay from everybody else to not know what's going on, its Carr's job to cover their asses and make up for their mistakes and if he doesn't he's just a horrible player. Carr hasn't proven to be a great QB, but he hasn't deserved all this bashing. What the hell do you all get out bashing the guy?

frequentfliertx
07-22-2006, 09:00 PM
Before anybody goes taking off on David Carr, people need to remember that especially last season he had no protection due to a pathetic offensive line.
If he has halfway decent protection he'll do just fine in this league.

NATHANHALE
07-22-2006, 09:18 PM
Out of 31 posts, some 25 have been by the anti-carr crowd. Most post though have been by two trolls and some folks just keep feeding them.

...try 13 anti-carr threads out of 50 plus but exaggeration has always been a strong trait of the :homer: crowd

Wolf
07-22-2006, 10:08 PM
"And we could go ON AND ON about why/who/what is to blame for 2005. But after 3 years...Carr was among the best in MANY categories. The only one that really beat Carr after 3 was Marino (but go figure, right).'

Why don't you try backing up your posts with facts/sources, instead of BS. I needed 2 pair of boots to read the statements above-- name a few of the 'many categories' and your Marino statement/what is this?


I am still waiting from a response from you on my post

Texans_Chick
07-22-2006, 10:20 PM
Hate to bump this silly thread back on top. Here is a newish article from the AP that has some stuff relevant to this unnecessary new Carr thread:

Link: USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/2006-07-22-preview_x.htm)

While all eyes will be on Williams on defense, the pressure on offense will fall squarely on the shoulders of last year's most-sacked man, David Carr. A former No. 1 pick himself, Carr has yet to live up to lofty expectations.

He had his best season in 2004, with 3,531 yards passing with 16 touchdowns, but regressed last season and often looked shell-shocked.

Yet the Texans expressed their faith in him by exercising an $8 million contract option that will keep him in Houston for three more seasons. The decision likely had a lot to do with Kubiak, a former quarterback who liked Carr from the start.

"He has all the physical tools that it takes to be successful in this league," Kubiak said. "Does David have to play better than he played last year? Of course he does. We all have to. But we expect a lot of him, and we're going to try to build this football team around him and help him be successful."

Kubiak, who backed up John Elway in Denver and later coached him, said quarterbacks often "play their best football from year 5 to 11 or 12" — exactly the phase of his career Carr is entering.

"I'm hoping his best is in front of him, and the sooner the better," Kubiak said.

Carr has already at work learning Kubiak's new offense, and top receiver Andre Johnson will be joined by Eric Moulds, who was traded from Buffalo.

After struggling through his worst season in 2005, Johnson has been rejuvenated by the mere presence of Moulds. He is giddy over having a mentor as well as another receiving threat, and hopes are high that their chemistry will translate to on-field success.

Of course the key to all this will be Houston's ability to assemble an effective offensive line.

It's unclear what combination of players the Texans will line up to protect Carr, but the unit will be anchored by veteran Steve McKinney at left guard. They added tackle Ephraim Salaam in free agency and gargantuan tackles Eric Winston of Miami and Charles Spencer from Pittsburgh in the third round of the draft. Winston is 6-7, 307, and Spencer is 6-5, 352.

The group could get a boost from the hiring of Mike Sherman, a longtime offensive line coach who was fired as Green Bay's head coach after last season. Sherman will be Kubiak's assistant head coach for offense.

"I think we'll be very good up front," Kubiak said. "The question is: Which five guys is it going to be? Our competition in that position at training camp will probably be about as fierce as any position that we have."

Click on the link. Lots of good stuff there.

As for the topic of the post, I don't think any QB, rookie or otherwise would have had impressive numbers in the scheme we had with these players around him. Most of them would have been killed, maimed and/or crying tears in the locker room in front of the TV cameras.

I will put this link in a new thread so that you don't have to respond to it here.

Capster67
07-22-2006, 10:34 PM
Just for fun, here's a comparison of Carr's last 2 years with Pastorini's last two years in Houston.

Total Yds: Pastorini 4563/Carr 6019
Completion %: Pastorini 52.2%/Carr 60.83%
Touchdowns: Pastorini 30/Carr 30
Interceptions: Pastorini 35/Carr 25
Avg per completion: Pastorini 13.2 yds/13.48 yds

Houston loved Pastorini and ambivalent about Carr. Pastorini was lucky he had Earl to cover his numbers (which were among the best of his career these last 2 years).

NATHANHALE
07-23-2006, 12:14 AM
I am still waiting from a response from you on my post

Sorry, but I can't find the post you're talking about--only one I saw was the one about 'great' and I answered that and you answered me back--please let me know...thanks

BigDTexansFan
07-23-2006, 12:31 AM
I find name and tagline a little inauspicious...TwinSisters
Houston's #1 True Fan. I guess a negative outlook means you never have to be disappointed when you wrong, can just blame stats or luck or team playing over their head or.....:pigfly:

The Pencil Neck
07-23-2006, 12:33 AM
Personally, I think Twin Sisters is making up statistics.

Here are 4 different' player's stats after 4 years in the NFL. 3 of them won the Superbowl at some point in their careers and one if them is David Carr.

Completions - Attempts - Completion Perc - Yards - TDs - Ints
522 - 1079 - 48.4 - 6739 - 41 - 73
558 - 961 - 58.1 - 7223 - 44 - 33
746 - 1365 - 54.7 - 8621 - 38 - 54
941 - 1528 - 57.8 - 10624 - 48 - 53


I've ranked them by number of yards. Frankly, Carr's numbers look the most productive to me. He's the one with 10,000 yards and the most touchdowns. Bradshaw looks like a pathetic loser and it amazes me he kept his job... he only had a 48% completion rate in his first 4 years and a ton of int's... and no, those weren't mostly in his rookie season. Dilfer's TD/Int ratio (38/54) isn't that good either but isn't as bad as Bradshaw's. Jim McMahon never finished in the top 10 in any normal category but he was throwing TD's at a better rate.

Actually, looking at the rate that touchdowns and ints were thrown (% of attempts):

McMahon - 4.6% TD's/3.4% INTS
Dilfer - 2.8% TD's/4.0% INTS
Bradshaw - 3.8% TD's/6.8% INTS
Carr - 2.9% TD's/3.3% INTS

Of those 4, he's the best for not throwing INTS but the second worst at throwing TD's. Interesting.

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 01:34 AM
The problem that I have with your contention of those teams is that the only one that had a comparable situation to us was Tim Couch and the Browns, them also being an expansion team. Obviously we've have offensive line problems, and I'll take a bet with you any day that a team with major offensive line problems like ours will never garner better than a .500 record until those problems are fixed.

There's a reason why just about everyone in the professional sports community thinks Carr has what it takes...maybe you'd see that something too if you had as much experience as they do.

Howdy CD!

Jim Zorn played for an expansion team.
Dan Pastorini's line was so bad that he got his ribs cracked and lungs' punctured ...yet managed to hang his hat on some type of personal achievement.
Manning got beat up so bad that he had sit out an entire season.
Joe Namath's knees were so beat up, that opposing lineman cringed when he went down after his 1970 season. YET on a team that went 3-11 in 1975 two years before he hangs it up...Namath cracks the 10 spot for yards thrown in a season.

Here's a Pop quiz:
Q:
Could an old beat up cripple from Alabama, that was two steps removed from retirement, do better amongst his peers then David Carr in his prime?
A:
Yes.

Q:
Who was his coach?
A:
Charley Winner.

Q:
Who in the hell is that?
A:
Beats me. Obviously it was a problem with the coaching and the system they were using.

Wolf
07-23-2006, 02:02 AM
Howdy CD!

Jim Zorn played for an expansion team.
Dan Pastorini's line was so bad that he got his ribs cracked and lungs' punctured ...yet managed to hang his hat on some type of personal achievement.
Manning got beat up so bad that he had sit out an entire season.
Joe Namath's knees were so beat up, that opposing lineman cringed when he went down after his 1970 season. YET on a team that went 3-11 in 1975 two years before he hangs it up...Namath cracks the 10 spot for yards thrown in a season.

Here's a Pop quiz:
Q:
Could an old beat up cripple from Alabama, that was two steps removed from retirement, do better amongst his peers then David Carr in his prime?
A:
Yes.

Q:
Who was his coach?
A:
Charley Winner.

Q:
Who in the hell is that?
A:
Beats me. Obviously it was a problem with the coaching and the system they were using.

what are you talking about?

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 02:15 AM
Carr's legacy entering his 5th year is that he has been unable to perform his best because of the 'circumstances' around him. He has not even been expected to do well when all was OK around him, an unfortunate result of zero accountability. One has to wonder now-in this 5th year with so much change around him-if Carr can find 'it.' IMO, it will be very sad --regardless of anything else this season--if 'accountabilty' is still not part of the equation...

Thing about this is that David Carr is entering territory that not single a team has done since the merger... and most likely before.

4 seasons as a starter going into his fifth, without a single personal accomplishment underneath his belt.

The rest of those fellas have something, SOMETHING to cling too.. like Mark Malone at least had two winning seasons to warrant keeping him as a starter. ( granted he had some injuries to deal with also, BUT that would only push him ahead of Carr if it was a major factor )
--

On the ad hominem stuff; well what can you say? It is to be expected.
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

These should be added to every single message board, but for some reason it just gets ignored. No big deal either. Now if you say **** or **** or **** or **** or I want some *********** with that. Well! That's different.
( and yes I just used the "*" )

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 02:19 AM
what are you talking about?

I am trying to keep up here I got in late ...sorry.

CD said these other guys don't count because they didn't play on expansion teams or had good offensive lines.

Zorn, Pastorini, Manning could count as the worst lines ever. ( Don't know for sure though, just going off of what they have said in the past )

( Zorn expansion Seahawks 1976 )

Wolf
07-23-2006, 02:50 AM
i hear ya..

bottom line is I know people either love or hate Carr.. I am middle of the road on him.. I think he has the tools but has to have the coaching to get his mind into it.

I personally think his progress got hindered by not having a legit NFL TE...I am not saying Carr will be the next coming of joe montana but I just want solid play and we should see it this season

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 03:14 AM
A BIG fact, that's conveniently overlooked for this little comparison is the changes in NFL scheduling.

Carr is the only QB in that list to have to take an expansion team through its beginning years w/o the benefit of a TRUE SoS adjustment.

Since the NFL wanted to make sure that EVERY team in EVERY division played each other every x years, it subsequently left only 2 GAMES to adjust for the previous years success / failure.

As a result, this year's Texans have to play the 8th hardest schedule in the NFL, despite finishing last season ranked #32.

To re-iterate the point TL13 was making, being in the AFC South has added to Carr's woes, since the Texans aren't getting the schedule adjustments that they would have in years past.

...don't even get me started on our O-Line , blocking scheme changes, etc.:brickwall


Maybe. Maybe that's why Malone never coudl do anything having to play against the Bengals, Browns, and Oilers while they were in great shape.

Then we got Zorn and the Seahawks that had to play against the Super Bowl Raiders, Super Bowl Broncos, Fouts Chargers, and weaker Chiefs twice a season. 6 tough, 2 okay - 8 divisional games

While Carr plays 4 teams with only one that even thought about going to a Super Bowl. 2 tough, 4 winnable - 6 divisional games

So if we factor in Strength of Schedule for every 4 year starter, where do you think that will leave Carr then? Two steps over Malone and sitting right next Jim Harbaugh then?

I don't know that much about the details of the SoS changes, but that is certainly a good thing to look at.

South Texan
07-23-2006, 04:32 AM
[QUOTE=TwinSisters]Thing about this is that David Carr is entering territory that not single a team has done since the merger... and most likely before.

4 seasons as a starter going into his fifth, without a single personal accomplishment underneath his belt.

The rest of those fellas have something, SOMETHING to cling too.. like Mark Malone at least had two winning seasons to warrant keeping him as a starter. ( granted he had some injuries to deal with also, BUT that would only push him ahead of Carr if it was a major factor )[QUOTE]
--


Hmmmm, could he lay claim to surviving more sacks per year than any other active QB?? Just wondering.

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 04:57 AM
THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.

Thanks again for the top-notch analysis. :shades:

BAh! This isn't again.

I looked to see if anyone has compared David Carr's performance to other NFL QBs over the past years. There wasn't one, so here it is. It's not a open ended bash because I didn't state 'Carr sucks' and then walked off.

I am looking at 4 year starters and why they have the job for the 5th.

I mean did you already know that Joe Montana called him out for not doing anything in the past 4 years to warrant a starting job in the NFL? Did you know that there are only three QBs since the Super Bowl era, that have started a 5th season without doing much on his own to be awarded that opportunity?

Chances are you didn't, so it's something new to talk about. That's a good thing. Healthy stuff to talk about.

So this thread is about what he has done, not what he is going to do... I got the "what Carr needs to do" thread on the drafting board right now. I should have it ready by next week after this one goes dies out.

It's okay to talk about David Carr. He plays for the Texans. It's a Texans' message board. It should be expected to have a running QB thread 24 hours a day.

( even on Sundays )

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 05:20 AM
Kubiak is the man that has to get into David's head and get him to have that cocky swagger that a QB has to have (just like Garner needs to get into Brad Lidge's head) and to trust his teammates and his teammates trust him. If Kubiak can't do that, well McNair made a gamble that didn't pay off (keeping Carr) and Dan Reeves made a mistake watching game film on Carr and gave the wrong advice.. it could happen.
and if that is the case Brady Quinn here we come.

I am not sure what that Lidge stuff is about :), but being wrong is certainly a possibility.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/slead.htm

I found this article a few days ago while trying to track something else down. It's Bill Walsh weighing in on the Carr/Harrington debate prior to the draft.

It doesn't really say anything important, but it's neat to look at if you have never seen it before. The big difference ( obviously ) between this look at Carr and the Reeves look... is that Reeves had a chance to look at Carr in the NFL.

NATHANHALE
07-23-2006, 05:54 AM
"It's okay to talk about David Carr. He plays for the Texans. It's a Texans' message board. It should be expected to have a running QB thread 24 hours a day."

I'm assuming you were not around the board last year leading up to the 2005 season, so if you were--just ignore this post. Then, there were 2 primary posting groups, the 'Chicken Littles' and the "Homers,' and the big arguement was the state of the team heading into 2005. The 'CLs' were predicting doom and gloom and 'Hs' were predicting a good season that might even include the playoffs--both sides giving their reasons. While the 'banter' was heated and started after the 2004 season, the talk between the 2 sides ended very quickly once the regular season began and it became obvious that the 'play' we saw in pre-season was not a 'mirage' but-instead- the real thing. The 'CLs' IMO showed a lot of class because they never called anyone out, never exploited 'told you so,' etc. and went on with life. No, they never stooped so low as to make a thread of 'Hs' that made their life miserable and disagreed with them, just to flaunt in their faces when it became obvious who was right. Conversely, most of the 'Hs' disappeared from the board altogether or posted little as the 'onslaught' continued and-only a 'handful' even bothered to acknowledge they'd been wrong. But that was OK because there was no 'nose rubbing.'

This season the debate-for the most part-is about Carr-again there are 2 sides and I would bet those sides are pretty much made up of the same folks(plus new ones) from last year. Again, one side (Carr's) thinks they are the only ones who can post on the board and--once again--they stretchhhhhhhhhh the rules of the board with their banter,insinuations,etc. However,IMO, this board stooped to a 'low' today when a poster was allowed to post a thread that put people on a 'hit' list who say things about Carr they don't like...And, you can bet---that if Carr does well this year, there will not be enough band width to handle all the 'told you so's.'

People that visit this board have commented about the 'lack' of fan discussion, and posters even noted today people that have not been around in awhile. Could it be because of the 'rampant' disrespect for other peoples opinion, and the relentless bashing?...good luck everybody! Here's to a winning season and may Carr do well, so long......

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 06:08 AM
You can't judge whether Carr will be a good QB based on him "cracking a column"...

Then how do propose to do it? Judge one on what they have done yesterday and the day before or what they could do tomorrow?

However I do agree... it doesn't mean that he is going to be as bad tomorrow as he was the past 1,460 some odd days. It's sorta like having your favourite horse getting all sickly and pale in the gums. You need to check the mercury to judge if he is just having a down day or if he indeed is in trouble. That little stat will let you know if you should just rub the gums a little or call the vet.

And this horse in baaaaad shape. It don't look good...

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 06:43 AM
i say thats pretty good for a guy who has had to go thru what he has with no blocking Brady/Favre/Manning any of those guys would have had just as many problems. Give the guy a chance with a O line who has worked together and has chemistry instead of a patch work line of guys who didnt know where they'll line up every week:twocents:

well not really. Favre is 10th on TDs thrown, 1st attempts, 1st in completions, and 3rd in yards. His line was patched up ( lost both his guards . His team went 4-12. Sherman was partially booted because of leadership problems )

Sherman and the line is all they talk about half the time
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/sports/index.php?ntid=92064&ntpid=1

from a few hours ago... don't worry if you miss it... there will be another one tomorrow.

3. Sherman is not the reason the Packers are having a miserable year. Poor health, not coaching ineptitude, explains Green Bay’s 1-7 record.

Reciting the Packers’ significant injuries is a "painful" exercise. Green Bay lost star receiver Javon Walker on opening day. In addition, backup running back Najeh Davenport was lost for the season in game 5; star halfback Ahman Green was lost for the year in game 6 (after having missed the end of game 4 and all of game 5); nickel back Earl Little and fourth wide receiver Terrence Murphy both were lost for the year midway through game 4; wide receiver Robert Ferguson has not played since the second quarter of game 6 and it is not known when he will return; starting center Mike Flanagan missed games 5 and 6, and parts of several others; starting linebacker Na’il Diggs has missed six games and counting; tight end David Martin has missed three games and counting; and starting tackle Chad Clifton missed most of game 4. And those are just the injuries I remember off the top of my head.

We all know that injuries are part of the game. Every team has to deal with them to some extent. But it is hard to succeed when injuries completely deplete an entire position. Just ask Bill Belichick. His Super Bowl champion Patriots are 4-4. Is that because Belichick has slipped as a coach? Of course not. New England is struggling because injuries have decimated the Patriots’ secondary.

http://www.jsonline.com/blog/index.aspx?id=76&entry=11618&month=11&year=2005

this is just from a fan blog... ALL OF THAT and he still makes the top ten. that's only half the season. It still got worse for them... except for Gado's break out. But that didn't do much to save them from a 48-3 beating from the Ravens.

Note: that's the same Flanagan that is supposed to come and anchor our line.
I sure hope they know what they are doing and he can make at least 16 games.

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 07:00 AM
Yo, Twisted Sister...or..twin...whatever.

Back off a bit, my friend.

2006 will be the ultimate test. Until then, I'd call it an "incomplete" at this point.

Until 2006 is in the books...Carr & the Texans have my FULL support!

Go Texans!

DSP

Here ya go cousin
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/TT/qvt1.html

The Texans are going to have my support until they shut the door on the Mayflower ...or DC-8's start their holding patterns. Whichever one comes first. Both are possible I suppose.

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 07:12 AM
I guess some people have forgotten what Kubiak did for Plummer in Denver, helping to make a better player out of a guy who was in a bad situation and disliked by some people in Arizona. I expect him to so the same thing for Carr now that he's here.

No I haven't forgotten. He had two QBs at Denver post-Elway. Brian Griese and Jake Plummer.

One is a solid back-up now and Plummer had two okay seasons in Arizona without Kubiak.

Plummer is far from universally accepted in Denver though... but I could be wrong. I know I heard plenty O folks saying he cost them the game against the Steelers. I have no idea if it is true or not.

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 07:39 AM
Alex Smith had a horrendous yr. Carr never had anything close to Smith's yet you wanna sit there and say Carr is one of the worst QB's of all time. Get off it man, how can you seriously sit there seeing the big picture home in on Carr and lay the blame on him like that.

yeah Alex Smith... I saw a guy break him down as one of the worst rookie performances in the modern NFL ( post salary cap ).

and we are looking at the big picture. I am looking at him as to where he sits right now, after 4 years of starting in the NFL. Not where is going to be in 20 or what if he had this or what if he had that or why he is the amongst the worst. Just looking at where he stands right now.

You couldn't call him the worst QB ever, because those got traded, tossed, or waived after failing. Only a small handful of them played 4 straight without a danger of being cut, waived, traded, or tossed.

---

as for 'why you do it'... it's because ever so now and then I learn something. This particular thread netted me at least one gem about strength of schedule differences. I didn't think about that before hand all that much, but now I think I will. You know, then of course, you see a lot of other takes too that are somewhat beneficial in some form or another. Then other's are just kinda funny.

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 07:50 AM
Hmmmm, could he lay claim to surviving more sacks per year than any other active QB?? Just wondering.

It's possible. I have seen a debate that says Manning was hit the most since the Super Bowls started

We didn't start to log sacks until 1982 officially so there is a lot debate about it prior to that year. Manning's carreer was already over by 82 ( and in Houston ).

http://www.footballresearch.com/articles/frpage.cfm?topic=2sakrace

There are several articles here that cover that topic. A lot of good stuff about statistics too about the stories they tell and don't tell so well.

RTP2110
07-23-2006, 08:59 AM
I'm in the same boat with Wolf here. I'm just in the middle. I don't love Carr or hate him. But I do still have confidence that he can be a good QB. We've seen QB's lately put it all together after a few years in the league. Look at Drew Brees and Matt Hasselbeck. Kubiak even said himself that QB's generally blossom in years 5 to 11.

Now, here's my main question. What did Carr do so wrong that sent so many people overboard? After the 2004 season Carr was coming off of a season with 3500 yards passing and a QB rating of 83.5. At that point nobody was really bashing Carr or saying he was the main problem with the team. Suddenly after one "bad" season he's the worst QB in 40 years? I put bad in quotes because I personally wouldn't say Carr had a bad season in 2005. He still had 60% completions, and more TD's than INT's. I think many people had it set in thier mind that if Carr didn't step up big in year 4, that he would be a bust. Let's not forget how bad the team was a whole either.

That's about all I can say. I'm not a big Carr homer at all. I just don't see why so many people are down on him. Kubiak seems to be happy with Carr under center. Reeves suggested we keep him. Maybe I'm missing something.

TheCD
07-23-2006, 09:11 AM
I am trying to keep up here I got in late ...sorry.

CD said these other guys don't count because they didn't play on expansion teams or had good offensive lines.

Zorn, Pastorini, Manning could count as the worst lines ever. ( Don't know for sure though, just going off of what they have said in the past )

( Zorn expansion Seahawks 1976 )



Perhaps you misunderstood me. I was referring to the comparisons between Boller and Fiedler. And regardless, you're refuting my argument with points I didn't even make. I said a team with major offensive line problems would never break .500. I never said that the QB couldn't achieve anything.


The funny thing about the points you make are that the QB's you're referring to all had time to develop on a team before being "crippled" and past their prime.

Either way, you're comparisons of Pastorini, Manning and Namath just help to prove the fact that our QB is one of the toughest players to ever step foot in the NFL...

Just give him 2 years to prove something. If he's done nothing by then, then I'll gladly concede defeat. I'm not saying he's the greatest ever, I'm just looking at his play through a coach's perspective.

BigDTexansFan
07-23-2006, 10:10 AM
"It's okay to talk about David Carr. He plays for the Texans. It's a Texans' message board. It should be expected to have a running QB thread 24 hours a day."

I'm assuming you were not around the board last year leading up to the 2005 season, so if you were--just ignore this post. Then, there were 2 primary posting groups, the 'Chicken Littles' and the "Homers,' and the big arguement was the state of the team heading into 2005. The 'CLs' were predicting doom and gloom and 'Hs' were predicting a good season that might even include the playoffs--both sides giving their reasons. While the 'banter' was heated and started after the 2004 season, the talk between the 2 sides ended very quickly once the regular season began and it became obvious that the 'play' we saw in pre-season was not a 'mirage' but-instead- the real thing. The 'CLs' IMO showed a lot of class because they never called anyone out, never exploited 'told you so,' etc. and went on with life. No, they never stooped so low as to make a thread of 'Hs' that made their life miserable and disagreed with them, just to flaunt in their faces when it became obvious who was right. Conversely, most of the 'Hs' disappeared from the board altogether or posted little as the 'onslaught' continued and-only a 'handful' even bothered to acknowledge they'd been wrong. But that was OK because there was no 'nose rubbing.'

This season the debate-for the most part-is about Carr-again there are 2 sides and I would bet those sides are pretty much made up of the same folks(plus new ones) from last year. Again, one side (Carr's) thinks they are the only ones who can post on the board and--once again--they stretchhhhhhhhhh the rules of the board with their banter,insinuations,etc. However,IMO, this board stooped to a 'low' today when a poster was allowed to post a thread that put people on a 'hit' list who say things about Carr they don't like...And, you can bet---that if Carr does well this year, there will not be enough band width to handle all the 'told you so's.'

People that visit this board have commented about the 'lack' of fan discussion, and posters even noted today people that have not been around in awhile. Could it be because of the 'rampant' disrespect for other peoples opinion, and the relentless bashing?...good luck everybody! Here's to a winning season and may Carr do well, so long......


shall I imagine such a reasoned post from the Glorious reign of Chicken Little, I think that when one pats oneself on back one should look at facts. Capers refused to make Chris Palmer help David Carr after season 2, Capers told Palmer to help Carr grow as a QB. Palmer refused to step aside and become QB Coach, Capers then got the most ineffectual OC/DC combo he could find and installed them to run team.

Q. WHERE WAS THE QB COACH MOST TEAMS HAVE


A THERE WASN"T ONE

So David Carr had to learn from his mistakes and try and get better all by himself, rather then getting his ***** ragged by all the CL's (or should we say holier than thous). They should have started a fan club for a QB who had no help, no QB Coach, no REAL OC was sacked more than most QBs will starting with little league.

Much is made of comment Carr made about team, ever been in a bad situation and not want to rant and rave and piss and moan. BECAUSE IS A CLASSLESS WAY TO ACT, David was not misleading fans, stupid or brain damaged. He was trying to remain positive because he saw a stretch of 6 games we lost BECAUSE OF COACHING, sure players should execute but when you don't have a game plan that works and you have little leadership from coaching staff...WHAT DO YOU DO....THE BEST YOU CAN.

Call me a HOMER, ain't gonna bother me. I saw David Carr in 1st season show flashes of why we drafted him, then mostly saw the machinations of Palmer and his 3 and out game plan. We blame QBs for losses and when he wins we give him all the credit, it is at end of day a team sport consisting of coaching team and playing team. when Coaching team fails to do its job it all falls on playing team.

Right now I have the highest of expectations for 2006 because Carr has a QB coaching him who knew what was wrong, Kubiak has no intention of repeating past mistakes by previous coaching staff, he won't promise playoffs or a Super Bowl right away. BUT he says he wants to win consistently week in and week out, not every 2-3 weeks or 1 game out of 6 like before. Do we go to head of class not right away, BUT when players win under Kubiak and see what he is doing working more and more will give themselves over to what he is asking. The Texans will continue to improve to point, we will be a playoff contender EVERY year and will be picked to make playoffs every year.:yahoo: :yahoo:

TwinSisters
07-23-2006, 10:29 AM
I'm assuming you were not around the board last year leading up to the 2005 season, so if you were--just ignore this post. :::
People that visit this board have commented about the 'lack' of fan discussion, and posters even noted today people that have not been around in awhile. Could it be because of the 'rampant' disrespect for other peoples opinion, and the relentless bashing?...good luck everybody! Here's to a winning season and may Carr do well, so long......

nope. I spent the first season away. For the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th I was tied up with the Packers and Seahawks media. So most of my Texan talks were between myself and my trusty set of Toshiba CRTs. I got all of my news from the NFL and counted on HoustonProFootball to keep me in touch with non-McNair sponsored news. I had to hop on here before the draft because so many people where bothering me with questions about Reggie Bush and making me feel bad that I couldn't answer a few particular questions about the Texans. ( one of those of course, that I remember, was why in the heck is Houston so up on that all-WAC boy Carr. Hence I plug into each Carr debate since, to tumble the cubik so to speak )

As for the folks getting on your nerves or vice-versa... eh that's always going to be part of the community experience. I have actually been on a University sponsored field trip of various message boards with an anthropolgist pointing out similiarities between the social interactions of Pan paniscus, Pan troglodytes, and the posting communities. Best $#$%%@ $500 dollars I've ever spent ( plus Computer Lab fees naturally ).
(( and that is saying something too! Because I have been to Amsterdam. Wooooweee I am telling ya. Whatever you want, however you want it was invented and patented in that small corner of the world ))

So the best thing I could tell ya is to try and stick to the material as best you can and try to avoid the sidearmed fling from the old greybeards as best you can.

Let me demonstrate from this excellent article from Keith Weiland on David Carr from back in the day:

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/scout/scout11.html

That is, if I ever get comfortable with that idea at all. Robert Herrick once advised the youthful to "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may," and the Houston Texans should take similar heed. "Rosebuds," in this case, are not limited to just quarterbacks. If General Manager Charley Casserly retains the first overall pick in the 2002 NFL Draft, that player will be expected to develop into one of the best, if not the best, player at that position in the entire league. He has to. If no such player exists in the draft, then Casserly's only choice is to trade down.

The 2002 draft class for quarterbacks may be one of the weakest in recent memory, and that would still be true even if many of the top underclassmen declared eligibility. The play of Carr, after just four wins, albeit convincing, epitomizes that statement. To many, he has skyrocketed past other top senior quarterbacking prospects, like Oregon's Joey Harrington and Illinois' Kurt Kitner. This has happened so quickly only because a true stud quarterback does not exist in the college game this season.

Interestingly, both coaches on the Texans' staff have experience with these two young quarterbacks - Head Coach Dom Capers with Collins and Offensive Coordinator Chris Palmer with Couch - so each has probably shared with Casserly their own firsthand knowledge of their past situations. Coming up empty in the search for a legitimate first-round quarterback this year, and knowing what pitfalls lie ahead even if they do find one, should make the decision to draft a player at another position a simple one.

So enjoy watching the strong arm and leadership abilities of David Carr as he outshines his WAC opponents, but unless he falls to the middle rounds of the draft, he will be the third-string quarterback for another NFL team next fall.

Let's see... Heckle and Jeckle sharing their first hand knowledge with Woody Woodpecker on their past situations to make a simple decision? Well no wonder we ended up with 4 seasons of cartoons that could even make Admiral Hasley laugh.

Pretty clever fella for an Aggie wouldn't you think? Except he left one guy out... Randy Fasani.

http://www.thepresstribune.com/articles/2006/07/06/sports/local_sports/01fasani.txt

:hmmm: interesting story. Ran this month too!

Kittner ended up third string... Harrington most likely a 2nd.

Late blooming rose bush for sure.

---

P.S. also Heath Shuler is in Congress now and Ryan Leaf coaches football at one of those Texas A&M schools. Synchronicity... it's like electricity, you don't have to believe in it for it to work.

Wolf
07-23-2006, 12:32 PM
I remember reading an article about the whole 2002 draft and it is far from spectacular esp if you take out Roy Wilams of the Cowboys.

With the internet, I think there are tons of articles we could google to prove the point that a certain player will be a stud or a bust when they come out of college.

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives2001/draft_2001/scoutingreports_qb.asp#QB%20David%20Carr
Summary: Has a chance to become a premier NFL quarterback if his release point does not lead to too many problems and he is brought along and utilized correctly. Could be the type of player you can build a team around if he is developed correctly.




I mean that is an example that i can find stuff that says Carr could be great to build a team around.. I mean look into the future of 4 years, there is stuff right now that says Mario is going to be a beast there is stuff that says Mario is the next Sam Bowie.


Bottom line is I am holding judgement on Bashing Carr.. We have seen he can make the throws, I want to see if Kubiak can get him to make the right reads to go with the throws..

I want to see screens and slants to stop the pass rush, I want to see playaction passes also that freezes the defense. we already saw the hitch routes, run off of left tackle in predictable situations.. very vanilla offense due to the lack of pass blocking and no 2 way TE to threaten a defense that is playing cover 2 on us over and over.


If Carr has a horrible season with the weapons that has been added around him then, it will be time to get someone in here that can do the job. I expect a season similar to the overall 2004 season but with more efficiency.

I expect AJ to have a good season like 2004 also. I expect D-rob and the defense to be improved..

I also am willing to give the whole team a clean slate just like the coaching staff is doing.

Sco-tai
07-23-2006, 01:25 PM
I'm not gonna do your homework for you. These are true hard facts that many REAL fans have discussed. Apparently you were too busy coming up with funny quips about boots to take notice. And these facts were not just discussed on this board, but on sports radio and in person at the games. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself.

You can send me a personal message with an apology. No need in draggin your ego through the mud in public. :ok:

Cheers,

Scott

gg no re
07-23-2006, 03:03 PM
I want to see the response to the Bradshaw/McMahon/Dilfer statistics.

Wolf
07-23-2006, 03:15 PM
I am not calling anyone out because I am guilty of using stats to justify my cause but it is almost like this.

Jack Eliot: I'm a World Series MVP!
Skip: That was four years ago, Jack. Last season, you hit .235.
Jack Eliot: LAST SEASON, I led this team in ninth-inning doubles in the month of August!


http://imdb.com/title/tt0104926/quotes

:D

thunderkyss
07-23-2006, 03:57 PM
how does Carr rank among QBs on expansion teams with terrible offensive lines and extremely defensive minded coaches that prefer to use a running offense, but refuse to invest in the proper personell to do so?

in a few hundred more years.. we may have enough information that we can compare a player against other players that were in similar situations in the past.. but probably not. Carr's situation is different.. and because of that..you cannot compare him to other QBs who have been in situations that are hardly comparable to his.

Instead of focusing on what you can deduce through statistical evidence.. you should be focusing on what you have seen with your own eyes.

But you wont.. and people will still look at Carr and go "omg his stats are worse than <insert bad QB from 10 years ago>".

Whatever.. Carr will either solidify his position as our starting QB over the next couple seasons..or he will be replaced.. no amount of whining and worrying on our part is gonna change that.. and im not going to sit here and dog on him, trying to get some idea of the magnitude of his suckyness.


The Problem, is that Carr's stats are generally better than most, and it's when you watch him, with your own eyes, you get the feeling that he is way behind the curve.

thunderkyss
07-23-2006, 04:02 PM
losing seasons are not placed on a QB's shoulders alone and carr has an average of 73.7 QB rating in his 4 seasons The 1st 2 yrs were bad the last 2 were decent. i say thats pretty good for a guy who has had to go thru what he has with no blocking Brady/Favre/Manning any of those guys would have had just as many problems. Give the guy a chance with a O line who has worked together and has chemistry instead of a patch work line of guys who didnt know where they'll line up every week:twocents:

Brady took 41 sacks his first year as a starter, and won a SuperBowl.

We have the worst offensive line in the league, and people believe that because of the number of sacks we have given up. But how many of those sacks were Carr's fault??

thunderkyss
07-23-2006, 04:03 PM
Thanks for putting some sanity into the whole Carr thing. I don't think we can use the last 4 seasons to judge Carr or anyone else for that matter on the team for numerous reasons.


Yeah, you just wait to see what DD can do on a Good team.

thunderkyss
07-23-2006, 04:06 PM
Look people DAVID CARR will come through I'm serious about this I mean he's mobile and he can throw the ball accurately ( while avoiding a sack). But that is another issue.

The main thing is the coaching staff if they can bring folks in here that wanna win (which they have) I'm telling you with Carr in there he'll prevail and prove all ya'll basher's wrong. I tell you what, if he don't I'll exclude my self from this board and thats my word.

All he needs is a decent line and that will be it, the D is fine for this year (I have doubts for the secondary) as for the O-line ya'll will see an remakable improvement, I really believe we will make it to the playoffs.:twocents:

If he starts to play like an NFL QB, how does that prove us wrong?? I'm saying in last year, he didn't look like a 4 year vet....... nothing he can do in '06 can prove that wrong.

I did say we'll be looking for a franchise QB after the '07 season......... but I don't mind being wrong about that.

TheCD
07-23-2006, 11:29 PM
If he starts to play like an NFL QB, how does that prove us wrong?? I'm saying in last year, he didn't look like a 4 year vet....... nothing he can do in '06 can prove that wrong.



I will also concede that Carr didn't look like a 4 year vet...But I will also concede that D.D. was the only one who even looked like a pro out there last year as well...

Koolaid Time
07-24-2006, 12:00 AM
I will also concede that Carr didn't look like a 4 year vet...But I will also concede that D.D. was the only one who even looked like a pro out there last year as well...

Frankly I am amazed that as much punishment David Carr has taken from being sacked 200+ times, he really hasn't suffered a really serious injury....

I remember back in the 70's when Dan Pastorini had punctured lungs from broken ribs etc. It was a miracle he played.

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2006, 12:47 AM
Frankly I am amazed that as much punishment David Carr has taken from being sacked 200+ times, he really hasn't suffered a really serious injury....

I remember back in the 70's when Dan Pastorini had punctured lungs from broken ribs etc. It was a miracle he played.

One of TwinSister's knocks on Carr is that no other player has been a consistent starter with stats as bad as Carr's... part of that may be that no other player has been able to withstand this much of a pounding and still play. One of the things the talking heads at ESPN always bring up is what a tough bastard he is.

tsip
07-24-2006, 01:25 AM
I'm not gonna do your homework for you. These are true hard facts that many REAL fans have discussed. Apparently you were too busy coming up with funny quips about boots to take notice. And these facts were not just discussed on this board, but on sports radio and in person at the games. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself.

You can send me a personal message with an apology. No need in draggin your ego through the mud in public. :ok:

Cheers,

Scott

These are not facts that you've posted-every other poster on this board accepts the responsibility for providing the appropriate 'back-up' to their statements-choosing not to only reduces your credibility. Talk in 'circles and use your lil' quips all you want, but they don't make your assertions/statements true...

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 01:39 AM
One of TwinSister's knocks on Carr is that no other player has been a consistent starter with stats as bad as Carr's... part of that may be that no other player has been able to withstand this much of a pounding and still play. One of the things the talking heads at ESPN always bring up is what a tough bastard he is.

tough doesn't equal wins....it just equals tough. I'd rather have a good qb that gets injured occasionally rather then a bad one who doesn't.

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2006, 10:59 AM
tough doesn't equal wins....it just equals tough. I'd rather have a good qb that gets injured occasionally rather then a bad one who doesn't.

Sure. But that's assuming that the quarterback is winning or losing games.

Obviously, you and the other Carr bashers think that Carr is losing games. Personally, I don't think that's the case. Last year, I think the team as a whole lost those games because of bad coaching and overall poor play. The whole team didn't look prepared. So I think it's wrong to put those losses at entirely at Carr's feet. He did have a bad year, just like everyone else, but blaming him for the whole team's poor play is another case of giving too much credit to the QB.

HOU-TEX
07-24-2006, 11:08 AM
Sure. But that's assuming that the quarterback is winning or losing games.

Obviously, you and the other Carr bashers think that Carr is losing games. Personally, I don't think that's the case. Last year, I think the team as a whole lost those games because of bad coaching and overall poor play. The whole team didn't look prepared. So I think it's wrong to put those losses at entirely at Carr's feet. He did have a bad year, just like everyone else, but blaming him for the whole team's poor play is another case of giving too much credit to the QB.

I agree 100% with your post, but it's like :brickwall trying to convince swt.:shoot:

SESupergenius
07-24-2006, 11:09 AM
So basically we fired Dom Capers and let Casserly escape for not reason, all we had to do with this team was get a QB in free agency or draft Young, Leinart or Culter and our team would have been great this season.

Anyone see anything wrong with this?

What did Steve Young do his 1st 6 years?

Titan "Tack" Fan
07-24-2006, 11:12 AM
tough doesn't equal wins....it just equals tough. I'd rather have a good qb that gets injured occasionally rather then a bad one who doesn't.

:thumbup

real
07-24-2006, 11:31 AM
tough doesn't equal wins....it just equals tough. I'd rather have a good qb that gets injured occasionally rather then a bad one who doesn't.

exactly...and I always hear how tough DC is for taking all of those sacks...Well honestly I cant remember too many times where he's been blasted, or twisted to the point where I thought to myself.."I hope he's o.k"....I mean of all the sacks that he's taken how many have been "good shots" ??

Kaiser Toro
07-24-2006, 11:38 AM
David Carr and the Texans produced arguably the worst passing offense I have seen in a four year stretch.

I hope that it will get better. I cannot say at this point that I trust that it will.

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 11:46 AM
Sure. But that's assuming that the quarterback is winning or losing games.

Obviously, you and the other Carr bashers think that Carr is losing games. Personally, I don't think that's the case. Last year, I think the team as a whole lost those games because of bad coaching and overall poor play. The whole team didn't look prepared. So I think it's wrong to put those losses at entirely at Carr's feet. He did have a bad year, just like everyone else, but blaming him for the whole team's poor play is another case of giving too much credit to the QB.

He's had a bad CAREER. Year would be overly generous.

rafterticket
07-24-2006, 11:56 AM
and you guys are still rehashing the same garbage. In six months we could all be very happy, or at least very optimistic people. But NOOOOOOO!

Can't you at least say you HOPE you're wrong about Carr? Someone in the first few posts said something along the lines of Carr fans behaving as his apologists and using the same defending story (o-line, system, coaches). Well, read your own. I think Tim Couch is tired of hearing David Carr's name.

This reminds me of the first time I went to SA and was waiting in line at the Alamo. Some nutjob was in the park talking about how we are all condemned to eternal damnation...blah, blah, blah. Then he preaches about the government and it ends with we are all condemned to eternal damnation. Then he starts talking about family life and it ends with we are all condemned to eternal damnation. So my girlfriend says "I think he really wants everyone to go to hell!"

Does anyone get my point, or are we all condemned to eternal damnation?

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 11:58 AM
and you guys are still rehashing the same garbage. In six months we could all be very happy, or at least very optimistic people. But NOOOOOOO!

Can't you at least say you HOPE you're wrong about Carr? Someone in the first few posts said something along the lines of Carr fans behaving as his apologists and using the same defending story (o-line, system, coaches). Well, read your own. I think Tim Couch is tired of hearing David Carr's name.

This reminds me of the first time I went to SA and was waiting in line at the Alamo. Some nutjob was in the park talking about how we are all condemned to eternal damnation...blah, blah, blah. Then he preaches about the government and it ends with we are all condemned to eternal damnation. Then he starts talking about family life and it ends with we are all condemned to eternal damnation. So my girlfriend says "I think he really wants everyone to go to hell!"

Does anyone get my point, or are we all condemned to eternal damnation?


I've said repeatedly I hope Im wrong about Carr..but I don't think I am. I want Texans W's first and foremost...I would take a win over being right 1000000 times out of 1000000. However...there is NOTHING ELSE TO TALK ABOUT.

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2006, 12:38 PM
He's had a bad CAREER. Year would be overly generous.

I don't agree with that. 2 years ago, he had a good year. A year to build on. Last year was a step backwards.

His first 4 years have been better than the first 4 years of some HOF quarterbacks and tons better than the first 4 years of many SB quarterbacks. He's got the arm, he can make the throws. Let's put him in a situation where he can be successful before giving up on him.

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 12:43 PM
I don't agree with that. 2 years ago, he had a good year. A year to build on. Last year was a step backwards.

His first 4 years have been better than the first 4 years of some HOF quarterbacks and tons better than the first 4 years of many SB quarterbacks. He's got the arm, he can make the throws. Let's put him in a situation where he can be successful before giving up on him.

one good year? hardly.
He COULD have been successfull in this situation, he wasn't. The only thing David Carr has is a lot of L's

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2006, 12:59 PM
one good year? hardly.
He COULD have been successfull in this situation, he wasn't. The only thing David Carr has is a lot of L's

3500 yards, 16 touchdowns, more TD's than INT's, over 61% completion rate? I think that's a decent enough year. I'd like to see more touches than that. But that's not too bad.

And I think you know my position on the L's.

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 01:02 PM
3500 yards, 16 touchdowns, more TD's than INT's, over 61% completion rate? I think that's a decent enough year. I'd like to see more touches than that. But that's not too bad.

And I think you know my position on the L's.

Stats are meaningless without wins.....if peyton manning throws for 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns but the colts go 0-16 he still had a terrible year. Numbers are numbers...

infantrycak
07-24-2006, 01:30 PM
Stats are meaningless without wins.....if peyton manning throws for 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns but the colts go 0-16 he still had a terrible year. Numbers are numbers...

Wins and losses are just another stat so your argument contradicts itself.

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 01:31 PM
Wins and losses are just another stat so your argument contradicts itself.

wins and losses aren't a stat for me cak.....they are the reason we get up in the morning!

Texans Horror
07-24-2006, 01:35 PM
Carr is going to do fine this year. He won't be perfect, but with AJ, Moulds, and Petzier to throw to, a decent run game, and a new blocking scheme, he is going to look good. It's the defense I'm nervous about, just because I know so little of the defensive coordinator.

Titan "Tack" Fan
07-24-2006, 01:41 PM
Nothing is worse than having a first round pick not pan out.

HOU-TEX
07-24-2006, 01:44 PM
Nothing is worse than having a first round pick not pan out.

Yea, that would suck if VY didn't pan out, huh?:redtowel:

SESupergenius
07-24-2006, 06:28 PM
He's had a bad CAREER. Year would be overly generous.
C'mon, I just want to hear from you, "We should have kept Capers and Casserly and ditched Carr." C'mon, you know you want to.

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 06:34 PM
C'mon, I just want to hear from you, "We should have kept Capers and Casserly and ditched Carr." C'mon, you know you want to.


Nope...I was a pink soap club member....Im glad we cleaned house, but we still have one more room left to go

cincyTEXAN
07-24-2006, 06:36 PM
Stats are meaningless without wins.....if peyton manning throws for 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns but the colts go 0-16 he still had a terrible year. Numbers are numbers...
actually that would be manning having a great year and the colts having terrible year. we went down in flames as a team last year , not because of DC

swtbound07
07-24-2006, 06:39 PM
actually that would be manning having a great year and the colts having terrible year. we went down in flames as a team last year , not because of DC

YES because of DC.

SESupergenius
07-24-2006, 07:39 PM
Stats are meaningless without wins.....if peyton manning throws for 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns but the colts go 0-16 he still had a terrible year. Numbers are numbers...
Nope, in your context, they are stats, just a narrow minded stats. By your logic Trent Dilfer is a better QB because he has more Super Bowl wins that Dan Marino does. So much for numbers logic. There are no absolutes in your theory. There have been many instances in the NFL where a QB has been a bad fit with a team and had done better in a different situation (see Steve Young etc). I mean geez, just look at Elway, his numbers weren't great and nobody threw him a bone until he got some people around him. Ever think Michael Jordan could make it without his team? Certainly not. These are team games, it's not like backyard football where a QB can be tackled by the other teams QB. It's a team game, u really cant compare. And since you wanted Capers and Casserly to go as well, you are not making sense or backing up your argument that David Carr is the anti-winner for the Texans the last few seasons. Ben Roethlisberger just threw a whopping Roethlisberger 123 yards in the Super Bowl with no TD's and only complete 9 passes, but his stats include more Super Bowl Victories than Dan Marino and Payton Manning. Sorry, your statistical logic is greatly flawed, once again it isn't absolute.

Wolf
07-24-2006, 07:50 PM
SES.. I remember the joke NOWAY with ELWAY

Wolf
07-24-2006, 08:01 PM
Stats are meaningless without wins.....if peyton manning throws for 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns but the colts go 0-16 he still had a terrible year. Numbers are numbers...


my goodness. one could nitpick stats all day long.. if Carr throw for 4,839yards and had a completion rate of 64.5 % and with 46 TDs and only 9 interceptions.. and the TEAM goes 7-9 and misses the playoffs and that wouldn't be good enough for one player.?

what more would a player have to do? play defense? geesh.. a QB that threw that am't got that many TD's and that few INTS did everything humanly possible except walk on water.

BTW those stats are Carr's in College and yes I know that there is a big difference in college and NFL, but you don't get those stats by not having some kind of talent.
http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/070902aaa.html#TEAM.IND

well what does that say about DD.. what is our record when he goes over 100 yards? got to be bad also ..most teams when they have a RB going over the 100 yard plateau win

just stirring the pot a little because their is getting a film developing on surface

edo783
07-24-2006, 10:12 PM
Based on SWTs logic, if Carr threw 50 INTs and only 2 TDs, but we won all our games that would be a good year at QB.

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 01:14 AM
Based on SWTs logic, if Carr threw 50 INTs and only 2 TDs, but we won all our games that would be a good year at QB.

yes. wouldnt you take winning all of our games and care less how we got there?

TwinSisters
07-25-2006, 01:26 AM
esh... this thing got too long while I was looking at other stuff!!

I will have to get back to this one... tomorrow. ( or next season eheh )

Just kidding... alright where are we now??

Wolf
07-25-2006, 01:41 AM
Based on SWTs logic, if Carr threw 50 INTs and only 2 TDs, but we won all our games that would be a good year at QB.

true .. I am waiting from a response on mine too

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 01:57 AM
my goodness. one could nitpick stats all day long.. if Carr throw for 4,839yards and had a completion rate of 64.5 % and with 46 TDs and only 9 interceptions.. and the TEAM goes 7-9 and misses the playoffs and that wouldn't be good enough for one player.?

what more would a player have to do? play defense? geesh.. a QB that threw that am't got that many TD's and that few INTS did everything humanly possible except walk on water.

BTW those stats are Carr's in College and yes I know that there is a big difference in college and NFL, but you don't get those stats by not having some kind of talent.
http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/070902aaa.html#TEAM.IND

well what does that say about DD.. what is our record when he goes over 100 yards? got to be bad also ..most teams when they have a RB going over the 100 yard plateau win

just stirring the pot a little because their is getting a film developing on
surface


Our record when DD goes over 100 yards is 4-2. College stats are completely irrelevant. He has no kind of talent. Timmy Chang lit up the NCAA. The point is that the qb in your above example didnt do enough to make his team WIN. By any means necessary, your quarterback is supposed to be the leader. He needs to find a way to win...if he throws for 5000 yards and goes 0-16 he is still a BAD QB.

TK_Gamer
07-25-2006, 02:00 AM
yes. wouldnt you take winning all of our games and care less how we got there?

so you dont like losing, who does? and you want to blame someone, and a QB is a convenient target. but your comments contridict themselves and quite honestly you make yourself look uncredible and less than genuine. IMHO

but maybe its one of those childhood things where any attention even negative attention is desirable over no attention. who knows. good luck with that though.

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 02:01 AM
so you dont like losing, who does? and you want to blame someone, and a QB is a convenient target. but your comments contridict themselves and quite honestly you make yourself look uncredible and less than genuine. IMHO

but maybe its one of those childhood things where any attention even negative attention is desirable over no attention. who knows. good luck with that though.

I've been on target for quite some time now...Im not contradicting myself. I want a qb who can lead his team to victory. Carr can't....or doesn't, if you prefer. Ask anybody on this board about my credibility

TexansLucky13
07-25-2006, 02:08 AM
Ask anybody on this board about my credibility

Mr. SWTBound may have some wacky opinions, but he is always able to back them up in such a way that his case is viable.

If you are gunna get into a grudge match with this guy, you better pack a lunch. I have lost hours of my life debating with him. Make sure you can put your money where your mouth is!

Anyways... :gotexans1

P.S. - SWT I dig the new avatar, dude. :thumbup

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 02:12 AM
Mr. SWTBound may have some wacky opinions, but he is always able to back them up in such a way that his case is viable.

If you are gunna get into a grudge match with this guy, you better pack a lunch. I have lost hours of my life debating with him. Make sure you can put your money where your mouth is!

Anyways... :gotexans1

P.S. - SWT I dig the new avatar, dude. :thumbup


Thanks...the idea occured to me as i was doing photoshop work for a client.

TK_Gamer
07-25-2006, 02:40 AM
I've been on target for quite some time now...Im not contradicting myself. I want a qb who can lead his team to victory. Carr can't....or doesn't, if you prefer. Ask anybody on this board about my credibility

at the very least you attribute sucess of the team directly to the QB, this is crazy. you are saying (and i can quote you if you want) if the qb does bad but the team wins the qb lead the team to victory? what sense does that make? and if PM throws for 5000 yds and the team goes 0-16 then hes a bad QB? so coaching, defense, special teams, oline , depth, general ability level of the team, none of these factors control the outcome of a game only the qb matters and his "leadership"? i'm not trying to argue , im just not seeing the logic in your arguments.

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 02:49 AM
at the very least you attribute sucess of the team directly to the QB, this is crazy. you are saying (and i can quote you if you want) if the qb does bad but the team wins the qb lead the team to victory? what sense does that make? and if PM throws for 5000 yds and the team goes 0-16 then hes a bad QB? so coaching, defense, special teams, oline , depth, general ability level of the team, none of these factors control the outcome of a game only the qb matters and his "leadership"? i'm not trying to argue , im just not seeing the logic in your arguments.


Yes, I attribute the success or failure of a team to its quarterback. Its a weighty responsibility I agree, but thats why they get paid the big bucks. A quarterback touches the ball every play on offense. He makes decisions every time the ball is snapped. Some quarterbacks win games all by themselves. I know that sounds silly to you, but i've seen qb's time and time again take a team onto their shoulders and carry them. Michael Vick does it. Vince Young did it. Byron Leftwich does it. Tom Brady does it. David Carr never has. He isn't a leader. What do his stats matter if he can't get his team a W in the W column? Starting pitchers in baseball carry their win-loss records next to them, and they play a team sport. What about in the American League, where they don't even get to bat for themselves? No one player effects the W-L record of the Texans more than David Carr. Nobody.

Here is my main point. Maybe the texans failures in the past were due to other factors. Okay fine...we cleaned house. The defense is completely revamped...new d-line, new linebackers, the o-line had a complete makeover, the recieving corp was renovated, the tight ends refurbished, the coaching staff reassembled, and even the front office shaken up. But the only thing that didn't get discarded was Carr. Why not finish the housecleaning? Then nobody that could have been responsible for the Texan's atrocities would be on the roster...then we could truely begin to rebuild our franchise.

TK_Gamer
07-25-2006, 03:00 AM
Yes, I attribute the success or failure of a team to its quarterback. Its a weighty responsibility I agree, but thats why they get paid the big bucks. A quarterback touches the ball every play on offense. He makes decisions every time the ball is snapped. Some quarterbacks win games all by themselves. I know that sounds silly to you, but i've seen qb's time and time again take a team onto their shoulders and carry them. Michael Vick does it. Vince Young did it. Byron Leftwich does it. Tom Brady does it. David Carr never has. He isn't a leader. What do his stats matter if he can't get his team a W in the W column? Starting pitchers in baseball carry their win-loss records next to them, and they play a team sport. What about in the American League, where they don't even get to bat for themselves? No one player effects the W-L record of the Texans more than David Carr. Nobody.

Here is my main point. Maybe the texans failures in the past were due to other factors. Okay fine...we cleaned house. The defense is completely revamped...new d-line, new linebackers, the o-line had a complete makeover, the recieving corp was renovated, the tight ends refurbished, the coaching staff reassembled, and even the front office shaken up. But the only thing that didn't get discarded was Carr. Why not finish the housecleaning? Then nobody that could have been responsible for the Texan's atrocities would be on the roster...then we could truely begin to rebuild our franchise.

and this may yet happen, id like to see what happens first though. chances are if david cant improve this year we will have a new one next year regardless of the cap hit

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 03:26 AM
and this may yet happen, id like to see what happens first though. chances are if david cant improve this year we will have a new one next year regardless of the cap hit

But it begs the question..why did Carr get the lucky lottery ticket and everyone else get the axe?

TK_Gamer
07-25-2006, 04:28 AM
But it begs the question..why did Carr get the lucky lottery ticket and everyone else get the axe?

I truly believe Carr is an anomaly, only because he is so talentented physically. thats why other coaches still speak positively, and writers, even players say he has an arm like noone they have seen, and he can throw accurately out of the pocket. and he's never had horrible int numbers. so most of these people (and myself) dont wanna give up on all that is possible. that said, as most of those same people have said, this will prolly be Carr's last chance. I hope he does well

tsip
07-25-2006, 05:20 AM
But it begs the question..why did Carr get the lucky lottery ticket and everyone else get the axe?

Let me begin by saying I'm with you on most of your post and have not been a Carr supporter, but I'm willing to give him this year. Period. Why? The past 4 years were the biggest joke in NFL history, and the fans were sold a 'bill of goods' with the famous 5 yr plan. Capers did not have a clue as a HC--saying that,though, I don't know whose idea it was to build this franchise without accountability from the top down. Too, the franchise was built with virtually no communication with the fans, as we were never included in anything and we are only now hearing tid bits of Caper's Regime.

Now, however, I see some things I like, starting with Kubiak. Today,right now, we know more about our offense and defense than we did in the 4 yrs Capers was here--problems we've discussed and debated on this board have been addressed (maybe not all yet)--weak coaches have been replaced by 'teaching' coaches that emphasize accountability--and, best of all IMO, we have new philosophies in place including (1) coaching/playing to win (2) best players play (3) honest communication with the fans/media, etc. Two things about Capers I will not miss are his 'coaching not to lose style' and his trademark post game favorite word==EXECUTE.

Ok, Carr and this year. 2006 has begun with Carr getting a re-introduction to the 'real world' of the NFL, no more free ride and the slate is clean. But, saying that, I believe Kubiak has given Carr a healthy dose of 'sooner than later.' Kubiak used a technique with Carr that I used with mgrs that weren't getting the job done--set down with them, pad and pen in hand, looked them in the eye and ask them to tell me everything they needed to get their job done--everything. The list was usually small and workable and they knew this was 'it'--excuses were taken away, time to get desired results. I honestly believe-more than ever-Carr knows what is expected of him and knows that every effort is/has been made to give him the tools to get the job done.

I don't think it will take long to tell if Carr has 'turned the corner.' In the past-for whatever reason-he has struggled with basics, including-focusing on one receiver,slow release,poor pocket management,poor defense reading,etc. Now, Carr will have the time and tools to correct these problems--can he do it? I'm for giving him this year and hope for the best...:challenge :thumbup

edo783
07-25-2006, 08:51 AM
yes. wouldnt you take winning all of our games and care less how we got there?

Ya missed my point I think. It would be a great year for the TEAM, but a very bad year for the QB. The same thing would be true if Carr through 50 TDs and only 2 Ints and we lost all the games. A very good QB year, but a horrible team year. It's a team sport and they all have to do well to actually win. Actually none of the senarios above can/would happen because it is such a team sport and they all support each other by their play and by doing that wind up winning. Not as individujals who are accumulating stats. If stats were the be all end all for a QB, Manning would have won 4 or 5 Super Bowls by now.

texan279
07-25-2006, 09:12 AM
Our record when DD goes over 100 yards is 4-2. College stats are completely irrelevant. He has no kind of talent. Timmy Chang lit up the NCAA. The point is that the qb in your above example didnt do enough to make his team WIN. By any means necessary, your quarterback is supposed to be the leader. He needs to find a way to win...if he throws for 5000 yards and goes 0-16 he is still a BAD QB.

Based on this logic I guess Barry Sanders was a bad RB or if Carr threw for 3000 yards 2 TD's and 40 INT's and we went 16-0 then he would be considered a good QB...

HOU-TEX
07-25-2006, 09:15 AM
Yes, I attribute the success or failure of a team to its quarterback. Its a weighty responsibility I agree, but thats why they get paid the big bucks. A quarterback touches the ball every play on offense. He makes decisions every time the ball is snapped. Some quarterbacks win games all by themselves. I know that sounds silly to you, but i've seen qb's time and time again take a team onto their shoulders and carry them. Michael Vick does it. Vince Young did it. Byron Leftwich does it. Tom Brady does it. David Carr never has. He isn't a leader. What do his stats matter if he can't get his team a W in the W column? Starting pitchers in baseball carry their win-loss records next to them, and they play a team sport. What about in the American League, where they don't even get to bat for themselves? No one player effects the W-L record of the Texans more than David Carr. Nobody.

Here is my main point. Maybe the texans failures in the past were due to other factors. Okay fine...we cleaned house. The defense is completely revamped...new d-line, new linebackers, the o-line had a complete makeover, the recieving corp was renovated, the tight ends refurbished, the coaching staff reassembled, and even the front office shaken up. But the only thing that didn't get discarded was Carr. Why not finish the housecleaning? Then nobody that could have been responsible for the Texan's atrocities would be on the roster...then we could truely begin to rebuild our franchise.

I beleive all these QBs play for a team that have good to great Defenses and O-lines. So if Wand missed a block and Carr was blind sided which induced a fumble to which the other team recovered and ran it in for the winning TD, it's DCs fault? Do you or did you play football? If you did, I feel sorry for the team you played/play for. If you haven't played before then it's obvious why you'd post such off the wall theories.:stirpot:

Kaiser Toro
07-25-2006, 09:18 AM
In two days Carr has the ability to turn it all around. Every one starts anew on Thursday.

SESupergenius
07-25-2006, 09:42 AM
. A quarterback touches the ball every play on offense. He makes decisions every time the ball is snapped. Some quarterbacks win games all by themselves.Booo. Of course the QB takes the ball every snap, but he doesn't direct every play, he hands it off 50% of the time.

jerek
07-25-2006, 09:58 AM
But it begs the question..why did Carr get the lucky lottery ticket and everyone else get the axe?

It does beg the question, but the answer is different than you are implying. Carr's still here because our new coaches think he's got what it takes. It doesn't help that a lot of other people agree with them.

And it wasn't "everyone else". AJ, Dunta, DD, and other key players are still here. I know you were generalizing for purpose of brevity but why not get mad at AJ for having a bad year last year? And Dunta -- he had what, 2 INTs? The team failed last year and so the cancerous units were cut out and replaced with new blood. The still good units were left behind; I know it sounds easier or maybe just more fun to pass the axe around to everybody, but it doesn't work that way.

I understand what you are saying about the QB being the most important and I would agree with you, just not to that extreme extent of "all or nothing." And Mike Vick carrying the Falcons? To what? They went to the NFC title game in one of the weakest divisions/conferences in pro football history. What'd they finish last year? 8-8 ... yet again, against one of the weakest schedules in the league. Never mind the Falcons' upper echelon D or strong running back tandem.

Football is a team sport and there are players that have more weight in the system than others, but IMO you are grossly exaggerating the QB role.

texan279
07-25-2006, 10:03 AM
It does beg the question, but the answer is different than you are implying. Carr's still here because our new coaches think he's got what it takes. It doesn't help that a lot of other people agree with them.

And it wasn't "everyone else". AJ, Dunta, DD, and other key players are still here. I know you were generalizing for purpose of brevity but why not get mad at AJ for having a bad year last year? And Dunta -- he had what, 2 INTs? The team failed last year and so the cancerous units were cut out and replaced with new blood. The still good units were left behind; I know it sounds easier or maybe just more fun to pass the axe around to everybody, but it doesn't work that way.

I understand what you are saying about the QB being the most important and I would agree with you, just not to that extreme extent of "all or nothing." And Mike Vick carrying the Falcons? To what? They went to the NFC title game in one of the weakest divisions/conferences in pro football history. What'd they finish last year? 8-8 ... yet again, against one of the weakest schedules in the league. Never mind the Falcons' upper echelon D or strong running back tandem.

Football is a team sport and there are players that have more weight in the system than others, but IMO you are grossly exaggerating the QB role.

And when Vick "carried" the Falcon's to the NFC title game, that season their overall defense was ranked 14th in the NFL, and their passing game was ranked 30th in the NFL.

real
07-25-2006, 11:07 AM
Carr is supposed to be the leader of our team...Or atleast be the leader of the offense...Why is that so hard for people to understand...It is a well known fact that Carr has not been the best leader the past four years...It is also a well known fact that Kubiak knows this and wants Carr to step up...No Carr isn't the only reason we lose games...and he isn't the only one who wins games....But If you have ever played football then you know how much a team feeds off of it's QB....Especially the offense...If you'r QB comes to the huddle enthusiastically, and sure about things those vibes feed into the rest of the offense...and the really good leaders can feed into both sides of the ball....D.Carr just doesn't strike me as a commanding presence, and that is one of my concerns about him, because even a QB who is less talented, but is a good leader can make things happen....And I don't care what people say about his talent...If he had such immense talent it wouldn't be so hard to see...It doesn't matter how bad the coaching was or the talent around him...Of course he wouldn't look like an all star, but I don't even remember seeing flashes of brilliance last yr....Everyone is remembering 2004...thats should be all the Carr apologist chant..."Remember '04"....LOL....Cuz he absolutely sucked in '05....

texan279
07-25-2006, 11:09 AM
Carr is supposed to be the leader of our team...Or atleast be the leader of the offense...Why is that so hard for people to understand...It is a well known fact that Carr has not been the best leader the past four years...It is also a well known fact that Kubiak knows this and wants Carr to step up...No Carr isn't the only reason we lose games...and he isn't the only one who wins games....But If you have ever played football then you know how much a team feeds off of it's QB....Especially the offense...If you'r QB comes to the huddle enthusiastically, and sure about things those vibes feed into the rest of the offense...and the really good leaders can feed into both sides of the ball....D.Carr just doesn't strike me as a commanding presence, and that is one of my concerns about him, because even a QB who is less talented, but is a good leader can make things happen....And I don't care what people say about his talent...If he had such immense talent it wouldn't be so hard to see...It doesn't matter how bad the coaching was or the talent around him...Of course he wouldn't look like an all star, but I don't even remember seeing flashes of brilliance last yr....Everyone is remembering 2004...thats should be all the Carr apologist chant..."Remember '04"....LOL....Cuz he absolutely sucked in '05....

I just don't like the generalization that a QB should automatically be the "leader" of the offense. I agree though he needs to step up as far as his play is concerned.

real
07-25-2006, 11:28 AM
I just don't like the generalization that a QB should automatically be the "leader" of the offense.

Well Not only is it my generalization, but 'tis the generalization of Coach Kubiak, Mr. Mcnair....and everyone else affiliated with the Texans...I know that a lot of people like to think "outside the box" and say..."Well Michael Irvin was the leader of the cowboys offense".....NO....He just talked the most...But I bet he was Quiet in the huddle when Ache-Man was calling the plays...

NFLforher
07-25-2006, 02:24 PM
wierd that most of the sports writers and coaches think Carr still has what it takes to be a great QB and blame the coaching/o-line/system but you would rather bash Carr, oh well, whatever blows yer skirt up, so to speak..

I be hard pressed to do my job if I was knocked on my a** over and over.

NoBullTexan
07-25-2006, 02:51 PM
I am making a list of all you nay-sayers about Carr, and Twin Sisters is right there on the top. If Carr does well (and with Kubiak as his coach it is a lead pipe cinch he will) You are going to be reminded of your small mindedness throughout the season. Lets see, that means I will be reminding at least 8 times this year. Of course all of you negative ninnies will be afraid to show your faces. IMO!!!!!!!!!

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 02:53 PM
I am making a list of all you nay-sayers about Carr, and Twin Sisters is right there on the top. If Carr does well (and with Kubiak as his coach it is a lead pipe cinch he will) You are going to be reminded of your small mindedness throughout the season. Lets see, that means I will be reminding at least 8 times this year. Of course all of you negative ninnies will be afraid to show your faces. IMO!!!!!!!!!

please....i've been here a LONG time....Im not going anywhere, and I stand behind my posts.You'll just be in another thread saying "lets give carr a 6th year! I know he can do it!"

HOU-TEX
07-25-2006, 02:55 PM
Carr is supposed to be the leader of our team...Or atleast be the leader of the offense...Why is that so hard for people to understand...It is a well known fact that Carr has not been the best leader the past four years...It is also a well known fact that Kubiak knows this and wants Carr to step up...No Carr isn't the only reason we lose games...and he isn't the only one who wins games....But If you have ever played football then you know how much a team feeds off of it's QB....Especially the offense...If you'r QB comes to the huddle enthusiastically, and sure about things those vibes feed into the rest of the offense...and the really good leaders can feed into both sides of the ball....D.Carr just doesn't strike me as a commanding presence, and that is one of my concerns about him, because even a QB who is less talented, but is a good leader can make things happen....And I don't care what people say about his talent...If he had such immense talent it wouldn't be so hard to see...It doesn't matter how bad the coaching was or the talent around him...Of course he wouldn't look like an all star, but I don't even remember seeing flashes of brilliance last yr....Everyone is remembering 2004...thats should be all the Carr apologist chant..."Remember '04"....LOL....Cuz he absolutely sucked in '05....

Did anyone besides Mathis show any flashes of brilliance last year?

The Pencil Neck
07-25-2006, 02:56 PM
Well Not only is it my generalization, but 'tis the generalization of Coach Kubiak, Mr. Mcnair....and everyone else affiliated with the Texans...I know that a lot of people like to think "outside the box" and say..."Well Michael Irvin was the leader of the cowboys offense".....NO....He just talked the most...But I bet he was Quiet in the huddle when Ache-Man was calling the plays...

I seriously doubt that. I bet he was a non-stop, "I was OPEN! I WAS OPEN!" just like TO.

And I believe it's totally possible to have leaders on the offense that are not the Quarterback. The QB being the "leader" or "field general" died in the 70's when QB's stopped calling their own plays. It's great to have a QB that is the leader and field general, but I think those guys are pretty rare.

SESupergenius
07-25-2006, 03:00 PM
please....i've been here a LONG time....Im not going anywhere, and I stand behind my posts.You'll just be in another thread saying "lets give carr a 6th year! I know he can do it!"
Yes, you'll have to stand by this one as well. Please define the minimum criteria that Carr will need to have for him to be qualified under your terms to be a successful QB this year. We need to have this on record to refer to when we launch the "I told you so" thread.

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 03:04 PM
Yes, you'll have to stand by this one as well. Please define the minimum criteria that Carr will need to have for him to be qualified under your terms to be a successful QB this year. We need to have this on record to refer to when we launch the "I told you so" thread.

Simple. 8-8. I think asking a 5th year starter to post one .500 season isn't too demanding.

real
07-25-2006, 03:06 PM
I seriously doubt that. I bet he was a non-stop, "I was OPEN! I WAS OPEN!" just like TO.

And I believe it's totally possible to have leaders on the offense that are not the Quarterback. The QB being the "leader" or "field general" died in the 70's when QB's stopped calling their own plays. It's great to have a QB that is the leader and field general, but I think those guys are pretty rare.

Pretty Rare??? you are kidding me right??? Who do you guys expect to be the leader of the offense??? Andre? Eric? or how about Hogdon?? or how about Travis Johnson as the offensive leader...??? Sound Good ??? Almost every team's offensive leader is going to be there QB...There is no arguing that...And Im not coming out of left field...Apparently the texans front office and coaching staff feels the same way because they have been QUOTED...saying that ya boy Carr needs to become more of a leader...

real
07-25-2006, 03:07 PM
Did anyone besides Mathis show any flashes of brilliance last year?

yes...and was anyone else our starting QB, and first overall pick of our first draft ever ? No...Comparing anyone else to Carr isn't fair to Carr or the other player...

texan279
07-25-2006, 03:13 PM
yes...and was anyone else our starting QB, and first overall pick of our first draft ever ? No...Comparing anyone else to Carr isn't fair to Carr or the other player...

AJ, PBuc, and TJ were all high first round picks...

Rosewood
07-25-2006, 03:16 PM
I'm not buying yout theory buddy. Carr, in my opinion is not the best QB in the league but he hasn't been given a chance to perform..The O-line was and until proven otherwise still is trash..Lets wait and see how he does behind a pretty good set of linemen before you get to ranking him on anyones all-time list..Carr has the arm and the legs..His only problem is that he makes bad decisions. That can be corrected by the right coach..Capers wasnt it..You want to blame somebody them blame him and his coaching system...it absolutely sucks..

real
07-25-2006, 03:17 PM
AJ, PBuc, and TJ were all high first round picks...

And they were all dissapointing last year...But since this is a Carr thread I commented on Carr...Those players that you named aren't as high profile as Carr so thats probably why they don't get as much blame, but if you want to start a thread about those three....i'll throw them under the bus too...

texan279
07-25-2006, 03:19 PM
And they were all dissapointing last year...But since this is a Carr thread I commented on Carr...Those players that you named aren't as high profile as Carr so thats probably why they don't get as much blame, but if you want to start a thread about those three....i'll throw them under the bus too...

You said comparing Carr to another player wasn't fair yet you say they were all dissapointing last year. And you really think AJ is not as high profile as Carr?

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 03:19 PM
I'm not buying yout theory buddy. Carr, in my opinion is not the best QB in the league but he hasn't been given a chance to perform..The O-line was and until proven otherwise still is trash..Lets wait and see how he does behind a pretty good set of linemen before you get to ranking him on anyones all-time list..Carr has the arm and the legs..His only problem is that he makes bad decisions. That can be corrected by the right coach..Capers wasnt it..You want to blame somebody them blame him and his coaching system...it absolutely sucks..

Its not a theory sir....its visually verifiable. Carr is not the best qb in the league???? really? You figured that one out all by yourself? Lets not wait anymore...4 years is long enough to make a decision. You don't KNOW if it can be corrected...carr could be too far gone. Yes, I want to blame someone, and I choose carr. Obviously you choose the coaching system. Thats fine. Carr has been giving 4 seasons worth of chances to perform. Not my fault he didn't take them. Buddy.

Titan "Tack" Fan
07-25-2006, 03:20 PM
Its not a theory sir....its visually verifiable. Carr is not the best qb in the league???? really? You figured that one out all by yourself? Lets not wait anymore...4 years is long enough to make a decision. You don't KNOW if it can be corrected...carr could be too far gone. Yes, I want to blame someone, and I choose carr. Obviously you choose the coaching system. Thats fine. Carr has been giving 4 seasons worth of chances to perform. Not my fault he didn't take them. Buddy.

Why didn't you answer my PM, swtbound07?

real
07-25-2006, 03:23 PM
I'm not buying yout theory buddy. Carr, in my opinion is not the best QB in the league but he hasn't been given a chance to perform..The O-line was and until proven otherwise still is trash..Lets wait and see how he does behind a pretty good set of linemen before you get to ranking him on anyones all-time list..Carr has the arm and the legs..His only problem is that he makes bad decisions. That can be corrected by the right coach..Capers wasnt it..You want to blame somebody them blame him and his coaching system...it absolutely sucks..

Look....Im just calling it how I see it....Carr Sucked last year...I don't care why, or how he sucked...I just know he sucked...If old coaching staff was all that was holding him back, then that means everyone should recieve a magical ratings boost...just because kubes is in town....Im not saying he doesn't deserve a chance, because he does...Im just saying that I don't think he'll do much with his chance...and why is the o-line trash untill proven otherwise but Carr gets a special pass......

Rosewood
07-25-2006, 03:28 PM
Its not a theory sir....its visually verifiable. Carr is not the best qb in the league???? really? You figured that one out all by yourself? Lets not wait anymore...4 years is long enough to make a decision. You don't KNOW if it can be corrected...carr could be too far gone. Yes, I want to blame someone, and I choose carr. Obviously you choose the coaching system. Thats fine. Carr has been giving 4 seasons worth of chances to perform. Not my fault he didn't take them. Buddy.

lol...just look at his numbers man..they verify everything...they are very good considering the amount of presure he has faced each and every game....you blame carr then thats good but I dont..you say too far gone...dude he has only played four years..QB's / Players develope at different stages in their careers...see gannon, steve young, brad johnson, etc....now this season should tell it all..I bet the farm he will have a ton of riders on the bandwagon this season...

Rosewood
07-25-2006, 03:33 PM
Look....Im just calling it how I see it....Carr Sucked last year...I don't care why, or how he sucked...I just know he sucked...If old coaching staff was all that was holding him back, then that means everyone should recieve a magical ratings boost...just because kubes is in town....Im not saying he doesn't deserve a chance, because he does...Im just saying that I don't think he'll do much with his chance...and why is the o-line trash untill proven otherwise but Carr gets a special pass......

yea last year he suck...hell the Texans sucked....but you said it best...he deserves a chance..and the o-line is trash...then dudes couldnt block themselves...now they sucked!!!!!

TEXANRED
07-25-2006, 03:38 PM
Look....Im just calling it how I see it....Carr Sucked last year...I don't care why, or how he sucked...I just know he sucked...If old coaching staff was all that was holding him back, then that means everyone should receive a magical ratings boost...just because kubes is in town....Im not saying he doesn't deserve a chance, because he does...Im just saying that I don't think he'll do much with his chance...and why is the o-line trash until proven otherwise but Carr gets a special pass......
Carr doesn't get a special pass. He is our QB b/c the powers that be see all the physical and mental tools that make a great NFL QB. If this were not the case he would not be here. Look at all the changes that have been made up to this point. He is not being kept on out of sympathy. He is being kept b/c they feel he can lead the Texans to the promise land, otherwise we would have taken Vince Young.

How many Superbowl rings does Kubes have? What QB's has he been around? Young? Elway? I will take Kubes' word on Carr being good enough to win a Superbowl.

I continue to say it but you don't go 2-14 b/c of one person. It takes a group effort to mess up that badly. One person does not make a team.

real
07-25-2006, 03:41 PM
I think that people take negative comments toward Carr the wrong way...I am going to bash the whole team...evryone who sucked will get thrown under the bus....but don't pee on my back and tell me it's raining...in other words don't tell me Carr is going to get better "because of coaching"...and then Bash the O-line...If you are a coaching guy thats fine...but ride with the coaches all the way...if they fix Carr, why wouldn't they fix the o-line??? and in order for Carr to have a good season, the o-line HAS to play good...right??

real
07-25-2006, 03:43 PM
Carr doesn't get a special pass. He is our QB b/c the powers that be see all the physical and mental tools that make a great NFL QB. If this were not the case he would not be here. Look at all the changes that have been made up to this point. He is not being kept on out of sympathy. He is being kept b/c they feel he can lead the Texans to the promise land, otherwise we would have taken Vince Young.
How many Superbowl rings does Kubes have? What QB's has he been around? Young? Elway? I will take Kubes' word on Carr being good enough to win a Superbowl.
I continue to say it but you don't go 2-14 b/c of one person. It takes a group effort to mess up that badly. One person does not make a team.

Your post is fine and dandy...BUT...You haven't given me one hard fact as to why you THINK Carr will play better...So is Kubiak the end all be all now...because he thinks Carr is going to be good that makes it true...Mind you I have faith that kubiak is a good coach and can turn Carr around...but that is just a guess...all i KNOW is that Carr hasn't played well...in fact last year he really sucked....that is the only fact I know...

The Pencil Neck
07-25-2006, 03:46 PM
Pretty Rare??? you are kidding me right??? Who do you guys expect to be the leader of the offense??? Andre? Eric? or how about Hogdon?? or how about Travis Johnson as the offensive leader...??? Sound Good ??? Almost every team's offensive leader is going to be there QB...There is no arguing that...And Im not coming out of left field...Apparently the texans front office and coaching staff feels the same way because they have been QUOTED...saying that ya boy Carr needs to become more of a leader...

"More of a leader" is not the same as "THE Leader and Field General."

I think QB's that are the leader of the offense (as opposed to a leader of the offense) are rare. Brady, McNabb, Peyton Manning (not Eli, yet), McNair, Favre. Hmmm... that's about it, I think. I'm not sure about guys like Trent Green, Pennington, and Trent Dilfer. I don't think Bledsoe has it; I think Brunell had it and lost it. There are some QB's that could develop that quality like Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Vick, and some of the other younger QB's... including Carr. And there are guys like Aaron Brooks, Kerry Collins, Culpepper, and Fiedler that don't have it.

But the play of the quarterback hasn't been the primary factor in most teams' winning or losing in a long time... imo.

Battle Red Flash
07-25-2006, 03:47 PM
If this was about rookie QB's starting 4 straight years, or expansion QB's starting 4 straight years, I might take it serious.
Also, I think all the QB's that could not start for 4 straight years should be factored in. It's a feat in the NFL just to do that!

TEXANRED
07-25-2006, 03:50 PM
I think that people take negative comments toward Carr the wrong way...I am going to bash the whole team...evryone who sucked will get thrown under the bus....but don't pee on my back and tell me it's raining...in other words don't tell me Carr is going to get better "because of coaching"...and then Bash the O-line...If you are a coaching guy thats fine...but ride with the coaches all the way...if they fix Carr, why wouldn't they fix the o-line??? and in order for Carr to have a good season, the o-line HAS to play good...right??
There is a difference. Carr shows promise. Carr shows effort. Carr shows mental and physical toughness, competitiveness and testicular fortitude.

Now with that statement, tell me Victor Riley showed any of that. Or Milford, or Wade. Tell me Coleman just didn't give up last season. Tell me TJ really really wants it. Show me where Gaffney really cared to be a Texan. Show me that proof Morency has the ability to hit the hole and mean it.

Everyone quit last year. You could see it in there faces. The way they took the field. I mean for Gods sake Kris Brown missed a 30 yard field goal 40 yards to the left.

real
07-25-2006, 03:54 PM
look pencil neck...im not going to argur with you anymore about Carr being a leader so this will be my last post in that regard....If Carr isn't the leader then who is?? Since Coach kubes thinks Carr can be good and everyone jumps on that bandwagon...how about the fact that he has openly said Carr needs to be more of a leader...(which means he hasn't been much of one in the past)and atleast kubiak is smart enough to know that Carr needs to be our leader...how about hopping on that bandwagon ...

real
07-25-2006, 03:56 PM
There is a difference. Carr shows promise. Carr shows effort. Carr shows mental and physical toughness, competitiveness and testicular fortitude.

Now with that statement, tell me Victor Riley showed any of that. Or Milford, or Wade. Tell me Coleman just didn't give up last season. Tell me TJ really really wants it. Show me where Gaffney really cared to be a Texan. Show me that proof Morency has the ability to hit the hole and mean it.


Im not arguing desire with you...I was arguing performance...I don't care how bad "he wants it", if he cant win games...Heck i wanted real bad for us to be a playoff team last year, and you see where those hopes and dreams led...Hope and desire are both intangibles...which means you just have a hunch he is going to be good...you don't have any solid proof...I have more proof he'll suck than you do that he'll succeed..

TEXANRED
07-25-2006, 03:57 PM
Your post is fine and dandy...BUT...You haven't given me one hard fact as to why you THINK Carr will play better...So is Kubiak the end all be all now...because he thinks Carr is going to be good that makes it true...Mind you I have faith that kubiak is a good coach and can turn Carr around...but that is just a guess...all i KNOW is that Carr hasn't played well...in fact last year he really sucked....that is the only fact I know...
Every QB that Kubiak has coached has been a success in the NFL and two out of three have won Superbowls.

Thats about as much proof as one human being should need.

real
07-25-2006, 04:01 PM
Every QB that Kubiak has coached has been a success in the NFL and two out of three have won Superbowls.
Thats about as much proof as one human being should need.

And coach Capers was supposed to be a good coah for a new franchise...so what...

Rosewood
07-25-2006, 04:06 PM
Better O-line is why Carr will play much better........

swtbound07
07-25-2006, 04:08 PM
Better O-line is why Carr will play much better........

The O-Line is different....we don't necessarily know that its "better"

TEXANRED
07-25-2006, 04:09 PM
And coach Capers was supposed to be a good coah for a new franchise...so what...
Are you a glass half empty kinda guy?

Well look at it this way, right now the Texans are undefeated and Carr has a perfect QB rating. Oh yea and training camp begins in 3 days.:redtowel:

When is our first pre-season game?

real
07-25-2006, 04:09 PM
The O-Line is different....we don't necessarily know that its "better"

lol..'tis true...

Rosewood
07-25-2006, 04:12 PM
The O-Line is different....we don't necessarily know that its "better"

Old buddy from Maimi is better than any O-linemen we got..the pick ups are also...

HOU-TEX
07-25-2006, 04:48 PM
The O-Line is different....we don't necessarily know that its "better"

True dat, but the coaching alone should be more of an upgrade on the line than the aquisitions. Only time will tell.

SESupergenius
07-28-2006, 11:21 AM
After reading over Aikmans take on mentoring, I come away asking myself, has David Carr ever had someone like Norv Turner to help guide him? Was Palmer that person?
When former Cowboys quarterback Troy Aikman joins the Pro Football Hall of Fame next month, he'll be presented by his former offensive coordinator, Norv Turner.

"In all the years I played football, and for the 12 years I played for the Cowboys, Norv was a part of that for three years," Aikman said. "And yet I don't think there's any question that I wouldn't have become the player I was able to become. I certainly would not be getting inducted into the Hall of Fame if it weren't for his impact.

"He came in at a time when I was a young quarterback going into my third season, had struggled my first few years and needed some guidance, needed somebody to kind of show me how to do it, and put me in a system that allowed me to do the things that I could do. And he did that."

santo
07-28-2006, 11:25 AM
After reading over Aikmans take on mentoring, I come away asking myself, has David Carr ever had someone like Norv Turner to help guide him? Was Palmer that person?


I thought the same thing. I remember also when Steve Mcnair came into the league, he had mentoring from Jerry Rhome, who used to be the quaterback coach for the 49'ers. (correct me if I'm wrong).


David Carr, I believe, hasn't had the same quality coaches. Now that he has Kubiak and Co., there is no excuse for him.

GP
07-28-2006, 11:49 AM
I hate to cast stones here, but just looking at Chris Palmer--his mannerisms, his demeanor, etc.--has never exactly set well with me. He and Fangio seem to be those "rocket scientist" type coaches that have a lot of philosophy and very little practicality to them.

But with Kubiak, you get the sense that he's just a practical guy who implements very teachable and easily used skills. The guy doesn't seem to walk around like he's smarter than everyone else. He just seems to know football...and he only cares about winning.

I just always got the sense that Fangio and Palmer were similar to Age of Empire geeks who sit at a computer for days....drawing up master plans for world conquest and so carefully constructing their battle plan that they fail to realize that even the best laid plans might need to be scrapped in the middle of the battle. I just always sensed that those two guys were more proud of their "system" than they were of letting the flow of the game come to the QB.

Don't you think that Kubiak is a lot more humble, and a lot more willing to adjust than Palmer was? Of course, it didn;t help that Capers and Palmer were practically polar opposites in terms of playcalling.

Kubiak is a guy who played the position, coached the position SUCCESSFULLY with multiple rings to his credit, and he has successfully called/designed plays that fit a multitude of QBs who had different talents and skill sets.

We quite possibly have pulled off the biggest coaching acquisition if everything plays out as well as it did for Kubiak when he was with the Broncos for so long.

David Carr's first four years will be a very casual memory if this team turns it around and gets us on top of our division in the next 1-3 years. Then you'll be seeing Kubiak's legacy cemented and Carr's career getting reviewed in a whole different light. And will make Capers look even worse than before.

There's a lot riding on our team and the Kubiak experience. And I think it's going to turn out nicely, IMO.

afcman
07-28-2006, 02:27 PM
I only read the first post because there's no way I'm gonna read thru this whole thread when all I really have to say is this:

I have completely lost faith in Carr. I think, and hope, that he can make a turn-around.

I also think, at least this past season, that he has lost the respect from his team mates. I saw, on more than one occasion, this past season, where he would come off the field and completely IGNORE the coaches trying to talk to him and show him photos from the game. (But he would always make sure his hair was parted down the middle)

No, I don't blame it ALL on him. So much goes to that joke of a GM we used to have. But Carr could have, and should have, made better decisions.

My worry now is if he, and the rest of the team, can make it thru another losing season yet realize that we are almost starting over. Again.

the wonger need food
07-28-2006, 02:34 PM
Carr doesn't get a special pass. He is our QB b/c the powers that be see all the physical and mental tools that make a great NFL QB. If this were not the case he would not be here.

Not exactly. There are a lot of politics involved. To cut Carr (the face of the franchise) loose would be admitting total and complete failure.

afcman
07-28-2006, 02:38 PM
There are a lot of politics involved.

There always is......IN EVERYTHING.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
07-28-2006, 02:40 PM
Not exactly. There are a lot of politics involved. To cut Carr (the face of the franchise) loose would be admitting total and complete failure.

I think it is a combination of both. I think the front office would lose faith of the fans that are spending their money if they did stay with a QB that cannot complete more than a 3 yard pass.

I think if there was not a changing of the guards so to speak that the fuse would be really short for Carr and they would not have given him the extension he received. Kubiak (being a qb coach at one time) knows the characteristics of a good QB and he sees that in Carr. I think that is also why they agressively saught after impact players in Moulds, Walter, Putzier, etc on offense. His is setting Carr up for success whereas before he was set up for failure before this offseason/season.

jerek
07-28-2006, 02:56 PM
Not exactly. There are a lot of politics involved. To cut Carr (the face of the franchise) loose would be admitting total and complete failure.

Because Bob McNair became a billionaire through pride and unwillingness to admit "mistake."

NoBullTexan
07-28-2006, 02:57 PM
Did it ever occur to anyone that not only Carr disregarded the coaching staff, but so did most of the team. They flat lost faith, not in Carr, but in Capers, and Fangio, and that dumb excuse of a Pendry. In Fangio's case, I remember Gary Walker trying to tell him some defensive calls were wrong. Fangio told him, "you do the playing, I'll do the coaching". Nobody could tell Fangio anything, he wouldn't listen, he knew it all. So the players said to hell with it, we can't win with this system, so they just quit. Never more evident than in the S.F. game. Capers and Pendry would stand pat with players like Riley and others, that had no busines being in the NFL. Many of us on this board were bithcing because the coaches were incapable of making adjustments at halftime Well now it is clear they were simply overwhelmed. I just don't see how people can say they just can't stand Carr when he has never really been in a position to show what he can do, if given a little time. I was at games where the defense was literally on Carr almost before he could get the snap from center. How could anyone perform behind a line, and a system like that. Open your eyes peple. You will be amazed how Carr IS GOING TO PERFORM under the tutelage of Kubiak.

afcman
07-28-2006, 03:45 PM
Did it ever occur to anyone that not only Carr disregarded the coaching staff, but so did most of the team.

Oh yes....I posted about this many months ago. But I still stand by what I wrote about Carr.

hollywood_texan
07-28-2006, 04:05 PM
The quarterback position is successful or not successful for many reasons. Just because a quarterback gets sacked doesn't mean it is the offensive line's fault. Payton Manning had great protection last year and against Pittsburgh in the playoffs he had no time at all. It wasn't the line's fault, it was the coaching staff and Manning himself to blame. The offensive line only does what they are told and have no direct impact on the movement of the ball. Look at this way, superior quarterback play is going to help a marginal offensive line a lot more than a superior offensive line's play compared to marginal quarterback play.

Also consider, even in garbage time, Carr couldn't put up good numbers last year.

On the offensive side of the ball, everything has been changed except for the quarterback and running back positions. So it seems clearly that Carr must show he was worth the #1 pick in the draft from 2002, or we just continue to make other changes around him.

How much time does David Carr have? I think it may be several years because I don't see who would replace him. I seriously doubt they will pick a quarterback if we are in the top 5 of draft picks. That leaves veterans that are out there. Go through the list of names and it isn't pleasant. Not to mention the marketing disaster of Vince Young playing at Tennessee when he is successful and dumping Carr in the process. Talk about egg on your face for McNair.

Bottom line, Carr's job is pretty much safe in my opinion if the Texans can win 4 to 5 games and he shows marginal improvement.

This is a three year process and Carr has the physical skills and age on his side. He will have plenty of time to prove the mental side of his game.

THEFUTURE
07-28-2006, 04:13 PM
The quarterback position is successful or not successful for many reasons. Just because a quarterback gets sacked doesn't mean it is the offensive line's fault. Payton Manning had great protection last year and against Pittsburgh in the playoffs he had no time at all. It wasn't the line's fault, it was the coaching staff and Manning himself to blame. The offensive line only does what they are told and have no direct impact on the movement of the ball. Look at this way, superior quarterback play is going to help a marginal offensive line a lot more than a superior offensive line's play compared to marginal quarterback play.

Also consider, even in garbage time, Carr couldn't put up good numbers last year.


wrong. remember watching the Texans play on ESPN? Carr was getting sacked withing 1.5 seconds... NO quarterback, i dont care how good they are, can make a good play in that time, he is barely out of his drop back at that time. Teams brought the house on the Texans every game last year, because our line couldnt hold up, and we didn't have enough weapons to keep teams honest. It was simple for teams, double AJ, put a man on Gaff, and then send in the rest of the troops to kill Carr..... It wasn't Indy's lines fault? so why did Peyton throw his linemen under the bus and blame it on them???? the fact is that the Colts couldnt handle the pressure from Pittsburg either

hollywood_texan
07-28-2006, 05:04 PM
wrong. remember watching the Texans play on ESPN? Carr was getting sacked withing 1.5 seconds... NO quarterback, i dont care how good they are, can make a good play in that time, he is barely out of his drop back at that time. Teams brought the house on the Texans every game last year, because our line couldnt hold up, and we didn't have enough weapons to keep teams honest. It was simple for teams, double AJ, put a man on Gaff, and then send in the rest of the troops to kill Carr..... It wasn't Indy's lines fault? so why did Peyton throw his linemen under the bus and blame it on them???? the fact is that the Colts couldnt handle the pressure from Pittsburg either

I remember the Sunday night game against the Packers and Carr and Company couldn't get one first down in the fourth quarter. Ended up losing but led 13 - 3 at the beginning of the fourth. Take that for whatever it is worth. There was no issue of protection.

If a defense doesn't repect a quarterback's ability to get the ball to an open receiver, the best line in the NFL isn't going to make a difference in protection.

My point is, all of this stuff goes hand and hand. The offensive line don't touch the football, expect for the center during the snap, and they only do what they are told. If the coaching staff and quarterback don't have their act together, these guys are going to look like chumps, but in reality it really isn't their fault.

I agree, the offensive line has some talent issues. But, if the offensive line was so bad, why only add one quality veteran and two rookies from the early third round. Those are big moves to change tthe line, but not wholesale changes. Three to four guys from last year are going to be starting on the line the same from last year.

I'll break down the responsibility of the Carr issue:

Casserly/Capers - 40%
Carr - 35%
Offensive line talent - 15%
No passing threats - 10% (meaning other than AJ)

Why did Payton Manning throw his offensive line under bus? I don't know why, maybe he doesn't take the heat that well. Are you telling me the entire offensive line had a bad day when they were great all year. Unlikely. What happened was Pittsburgh was dictating the play calling to Indy. They would show a defensive set, Manning would call the play according to the set, and Pittsburgh ran a different defensive scheme when the ball was snapped. Manning and the coaching staff didn't adjust and the offensive line got the blame.

THEFUTURE
07-28-2006, 05:32 PM
I remember the Sunday night game against the Packers and Carr and Company couldn't get one first down in the fourth quarter. Ended up losing but led 13 - 3 at the beginning of the fourth. Take that for whatever it is worth. There was no issue of protection.

If a defense doesn't repect a quarterback's ability to get the ball to an open receiver, the best line in the NFL isn't going to make a difference in protection.

My point is, all of this stuff goes hand and hand. The offensive line don't touch the football, expect for the center during the snap, and they only do what they are told. If the coaching staff and quarterback don't have their act together, these guys are going to look like chumps, but in reality it really isn't their fault.

I agree, the offensive line has some talent issues. But, if the offensive line was so bad, why only add one quality veteran and two rookies from the early third round. Those are big moves to change tthe line, but not wholesale changes. Three to four guys from last year are going to be starting on the line the same from last year.

I'll break down the responsibility of the Carr issue:

Casserly/Capers - 40%
Carr - 35%
Offensive line talent - 15%
No passing threats - 10% (meaning other than AJ)

Why did Payton Manning throw his offensive line under bus? I don't know why, maybe he doesn't take the heat that well. Are you telling me the entire offensive line had a bad day when they were great all year. Unlikely. What happened was Pittsburgh was dictating the play calling to Indy. They would show a defensive set, Manning would call the play according to the set, and Pittsburgh ran a different defensive scheme when the ball was snapped. Manning and the coaching staff didn't adjust and the offensive line got the blame.
From Foxsports.com
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5794000
Check it out....31. Houston Texans
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here ... especially if thou art a quarterback. Especially if thou art David Carr, a young man who could teach a certain Mr. Manning a thing or three about not throwing his linemen under a bus. Football Outsiders, as part of our game-charting project, tracks blown blocks that lead directly to sacks. Houston far exceeded any other team, racking up 40 blown blocks ("whiffs", you might call them — St. Louis was second with 29). The truly frightening number: 8.1 percent of Houston's pass plays resulted in a blown block sack. New head coach Gary Kubiak will bring his knowledge of Denver's zone blocking system to Houston, but who are the guys who are supposed to implement it?

Right tackle Zach Weigert, left tackle Seth Wand, guards Chester Pitts and Steve McKinney, and center Mike Flanagan will be directed to drop weight and get quicker in the new schemes that require them to get out of the blocks quickly and get to the second level. Overseeing this progression will be former Green Bay head coach Mike Sherman, Kubiak's right-hand man on the offensive side. One bit of encouraging news is that Houston improved to eighth in Adjusted Line Yards in 2005, but that won't make up for another season of historically woeful pass-blocking.

The Packer game??? wasn't that two years ago? try i believe the Chiefs game where the commentators were criticizing our line for the play.

Manning adjust almost every play at the line. He hardly ever keeps the same play the coaches call. Manning has had no problem adjusting to every defense thrown at him, you think he would have trouble an entire game with the Steelers? when 4 or 5 guys are getting to Manning in the game, there is a way bigger problem than the offensive play, there is a problem with protection

hollywood_texan
07-28-2006, 06:36 PM
Manning adjust almost every play at the line. He hardly ever keeps the same play the coaches call. Manning has had no problem adjusting to every defense thrown at him, you think he would have trouble an entire game with the Steelers? when 4 or 5 guys are getting to Manning in the game, there is a way bigger problem than the offensive play, there is a problem with protection

Manning calling the play at the line was the exact problem. Here is what happened.

Pittsburgh studied the tendacies of Indy for the past two years and really looked at the San Diego games.

What Pittsburgh realized was if you have gave Manning a certain defensive look, he would call a certain play. Basically, Pittsburgh was dictating Indy's play calling as well as knowing every play before it was run. In addition, they would change the defensive scheme from what they shown before the snap, so Manning was confused because Pittsburgh was playing a defense different from the look they gave him.

I merely picked the packers game because that was during the year Carr had his best year. There are other examples I could provide in that year alone.

My point is, a better coaching staff and a way improved Carr will be more benefical to the offense in scoring points than just improving the offensive line or saying it is all their fault.

If Kubiak doesn't make good play calling and/or David Carr stinks up the joint, the best line in the world isn't going to save Carr from being the sack master that he is already well on his way of becoming.

THEFUTURE
07-28-2006, 08:21 PM
Manning calling the play at the line was the exact problem. Here is what happened.

Pittsburgh studied the tendacies of Indy for the past two years and really looked at the San Diego games.

What Pittsburgh realized was if you have gave Manning a certain defensive look, he would call a certain play. Basically, Pittsburgh was dictating Indy's play calling as well as knowing every play before it was run. In addition, they would change the defensive scheme from what they shown before the snap, so Manning was confused because Pittsburgh was playing a defense different from the look they gave him.

I merely picked the packers game because that was during the year Carr had his best year. There are other examples I could provide in that year alone.

My point is, a better coaching staff and a way improved Carr will be more benefical to the offense in scoring points than just improving the offensive line or saying it is all their fault.

If Kubiak doesn't make good play calling and/or David Carr stinks up the joint, the best line in the world isn't going to save Carr from being the sack master that he is already well on his way of becoming.

why would you bring up a game that happened two years ago? thats totally irrelevant. Analysts aren't criticizing the Texans for what they did two years ago, but for what they did last year.

the MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR THIS TEAM or at least on offense is the line...Carr can be the next Marino for all we know, but he wont get the chance to prove it unless his line steps their game up. you can't score points if your quarterback is on his back. and i call it like i see it. i saw a horrible offensive line that couldn't pass protect any better than my grandmother.

Kubiak could come up with the most ingenious offense ever, and it doesn't matter. Quarterbacks can't make plays in 1.5 seconds. So if we go by your train of thought. Kubiak can sit in his office all day and create plays, while opposing teams just keep the same old game plan against us. Blitz, cuz the texans can't stop it

hollywood_texan
07-28-2006, 11:49 PM
Quarterbacks can't make plays in 1.5 seconds.

I'll try and keep this brief...

You are right, a QB can't make pass in 1.5 seconds that is meaningful.

We agree there.

Just because a QB only has 1.5 seconds doesn't mean it is competely the offensive line's fault. Hopefully you see my point.

As for bringing up a game two years ago. I did that for two reasons. One you mentioned a Sunday night game. Two, many Carr supporters reference the 2004 year in stating their case.

Vinny
07-28-2006, 11:59 PM
the MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR THIS TEAM or at least on offense is the line...Carr can be the next Marino for all we know, but he wont get the chance to prove it unless his line steps their game up. you can't score points if your quarterback is on his back. and i call it like i see it. I see it kinda opposite you do. Marino took a less than stellar cast around him and put them on his back and made them winners. So far Carr seems to need a more than average cast so they can put Carr on their backs.

Texans_Chick
07-29-2006, 12:10 AM
I see it kinda opposite you do. Marino took a less than stellar cast around him and put them on his back and made them winners. So far Carr seems to need a more than average cast so they can put Carr on their backs.

There is a difference between less than steller cast and rosters that are frightening with their lack of talent and depth (http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/sports/football/texans/texanroster.html).

I'm not about to annoint Carr the next great QB, but at the same time, I completely understand the point of view that his coaching, talent around him, and scheme were totally ridiculous.

At the end of the day, I just have a hard time seeing any QB succeeding with what we had in place. Especially looking back in retrospect. The 2002 team was baby players trying to lead baby players. Project rookie O-linemen and castoffs. Would Peyton or Ben succeed as the 2002 pick of the Texans. I don't think so.

If Carr is any good, he will stay. If Kubiak doesn't like him, I am guessing he will get kicked to the curb like other Denver QBs that haven't quite worked out.

TK_Gamer
07-29-2006, 12:14 AM
I'll try and keep this brief...

You are right, a QB can't make pass in 1.5 seconds that is meaningful.

We agree there.

Just because a QB only has 1.5 seconds doesn't mean it is competely the offensive line's fault. Hopefully you see my point.As for bringing up a game two years ago. I did that for two reasons. One you mentioned a Sunday night game. Two, many Carr supporters reference the 2004 year in stating their case.

no, what is your point?, as for the blame quotient id say just from what we have affirmed here.

coaching 50%
o-line 35% (with bad coaching)
Carr 15% (mainly counting unneccesary self induced sacks out of bounds)

since we have all agreed at one time or another that no qb can make a play (besides a sack or throw away) in 1.5 - 2.0 secs. maybe we should be screaming about that instead of david carr. he got paid to come to play and he wasnt allowed to do that very well. is 6 or 7 mil alot to pay for mediocre performance? yes . was there alot carr could do to correct it? no. that was taken care of by mcnair when he brought in kubiak.

Ibar_Harry
07-29-2006, 12:23 AM
There is a difference between less than steller cast and rosters that are frightening with their lack of talent and depth (http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/sports/football/texans/texanroster.html).

I'm not about to annoint Carr the next great QB, but at the same time, I completely understand the point of view that his coaching, talent around him, and scheme were totally ridiculous.

At the end of the day, I just have a hard time seeing any QB succeeding with what we had in place. Especially looking back in retrospect. The 2002 team was baby players trying to lead baby players. Project rookie O-linemen and castoffs. Would Peyton or Ben succeed as the 2002 pick of the Texans. I don't think so.

If Carr is any good, he will stay. If Kubiak doesn't like him, I am guessing he will get kicked to the curb like other Denver QBs that haven't quite worked out.

Basically, Vinny has never been a Carr fan and probably never will be. As biased as he would say I am towards Carr he is of an equal bias or more in the opposite direction. I keep saying like you, I think based on the personnel the jury is out. Vinny might be right, but Carr has had some tremendous handicaps. Except for AJ, we have completely revamped our receiver core and there is a reason. I think it became apparent from the films. As many have said there are no more excuses as far as receivers and coaching are concerned. I worry about the zone blocking scheme and its impact on the the ability of the QB to have time to throw the ball. We will just have to wait and see. I still feel Carr has a lot of the characteristics of Elway, but I don't think he is as gifted as Elway was.