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done88
07-21-2006, 12:30 PM
Seth Wand versus Charles Spencer (Houston Texans, left offensive tackle): The Texans have allowed a mind-boggling 229 sacks in their four-year existence. First-year coach Gary Kubiak hired Mike Sherman to fix the longstanding offensive line woes, and the former Green Bay head coach has responded by enacting a musical-chairs approach. As currently projected, not a single starter will line up at the spot he played in 2005. That, for quarterback David Carr, represents the good news. The bad news is that the key left tackle spot, where pass-rushers have poured through as if it was a turnstile, still must be addressed. Wand has started 18 games in three seasons, including all 16 contests in 2004, and his performance was adjudged, somewhat mercifully, as uneven. Spencer, a third-round draft choice, has played on the offensive side of the ball just two seasons, including only one year at left tackle. He might not win the job outright in camp, but the sense is that Spencer could oust Wand during the season.

I read this on ESPN and thought it was interesting.
First the battle between Spencer and Wand for left Tackle. Although they say it is not going to be good for the Texans, He thinks that Spencer will take it from Wand by mid-season. I disagree. Wand is as much a project as Spfencer, If they think Spencer was the better prospect then thwy would pencil him in. It will take just as much work to get Wand ready as Spencer I think they see both as being excellent prospects but Wand as a litttle better. My question would be why is Winston not in the mix? If he is healthy he is a better prospect then Spencer.


Jeff Posey versus Mario Haggan (Buffalo Bills, strongside linebacker): Although he has been a steady defender for the Bills over the last three seasons, Posey never has quite lived up to expectations, as noted by just 9 sacks during his Buffalo tenure. Haggan hasn't been much more than a special teams player but, with a new staff and a new scheme, he could challenge the incumbent. At 248 pounds, Haggan is the bigger of the two and it's time for him to step up his game or be little more than a "lifer" on the kick coverage teams. The wild card in the equation is Angelo Crowell, who played remarkably in 2005 when an Achilles injury forced Pro Bowl weakside linebacker Takeo Spikes onto injured reserve. There are some questions about whether Crowell could move to the strong side and be effective there. But new staffs are prone to shake things up and the sound Posey hears in the background might be a few younger players gaining ground on him.


On this one I just wanted to note that Posey never lived up to the big contract he recieved and all the slack the Texans caught for letting him go was wong.

Runner
07-21-2006, 12:57 PM
My question would be why is Winston not in the mix? If he is healthy he is a better prospect then Spencer.


Maybe the answer is that "if he (Winston) is healthy he is not a better prospect than Spencer".

HOU-TEX
07-21-2006, 01:17 PM
Maybe the answer is that "if he (Winston) is healthy he is not a better prospect than Spencer".

I think Winston fits more of a Rt side tackle. Am I wrong here?:shoot:

Brandon420tx
07-21-2006, 01:24 PM
I think Winston fits more of a Rt side tackle. Am I wrong here?:shoot:

I'd want him on the strong side for running plays.

Coach C.
07-21-2006, 01:28 PM
Winston is in the mix if he is more ready to play than both of them. Winston right now is the better prospect, but due to Winston's athleticsm they want him on the right. That is not saying he is not athletic, it is saying they need a guy who can move on the right side which is the side they are prone to move toward. Winston is better suited to move with Carr and any RB to that side, and since Carr is right handed he fits better on that side. Winston out of the second team guys has looked the best and he performed well when put with the first team on occasion. Spencer has also gotten great reviews because he is strong as an ox and has demonstrated it repeatedly. Only problem is speed rushers i.e. Mario and Peek have eaten him up when they have gotten the chance on him. Spencer though in one OTA practice did stand up Babin and Malone by himself which was overly impressive. Wand and Weigert will be hard pressed to keep these two young guys on the bench and as Texan fans we should be getting real excited because it looks like we stole two bookends in the third.

Runner
07-21-2006, 01:33 PM
I think Winston fits more of a Rt side tackle. Am I wrong here?:shoot:

I don't know - it is still too early to tell (for me anyway). With our right handed QB and roll-out offense we might look for more mobility in a right tackle than most offenses. I do think everyone should try to remember that Spencer is pretty raw and not be too disappointed if he isn't a pro-bowler this year. :)

Realistically, Winston and Spencer are early 3rd round tackles that probably need some seasoning. I hope we fans take this into account. If either of them don't excel after a year or even two, that's OK as long as they are competent and geting better. Instant results are hard to come by at their positions; the NFL is quite different from college - especially for tackles.

Let's look into the future two years for a sample of posts if they haven't broken into the starting line-up or struggled:

Swami hat on.

Why did we take Winston? He's been hurt before! Didn't the front office learn anything after the Joppru experience?

Spencer? What were the coaches thinking? He only had two year of o-line experience! Couldn't they tell he would be a bust?

Swami hat off.

I trust we won't see this.


Now I want to be clear on this. I think both of these players have a far greater chance of success than failure. It might take a year or so, but I expect them both to be key parts of our line as the team evolves over the next 1-3 seasons.

Runner
07-21-2006, 01:38 PM
Spencer has also gotten great reviews because he is strong as an ox and has demonstrated it repeatedly. Only problem is speed rushers i.e. Mario and Peek have eaten him up when they have gotten the chance on him. Spencer though in one OTA practice did stand up Babin and Malone by himself which was overly impressive.

Spencer will probably learn how to deal with speed rushers as he gains more experience. That being said, how do you think Spencer would look at guard, given his strength and footwork?

Coach C.
07-21-2006, 01:42 PM
Runner Spencer would be a nice guard, but not sure in this system. His footwork is good, but I would not trust him just yet to get to the second level and back side. Now if he was with the Seahawks he likely would be the perfect LG to put next to Walter Jones. Like you are saying when he gets experience he should be a monster at the LT position. His lateral quickness is good, but when he opens his hips he does not close the gate fast enough if you understand that term. I personally would not play him at G unless I had to. If it came to that I would likely move Pitts out to LT insert Weigert to LG and then play Winston at RT. Hopefully our line stays healthy though and we dont have to do all that flip flopping.

Runner
07-21-2006, 01:48 PM
Runner Spencer would be a nice guard, but not sure in this system. His footwork is good, but I would not trust him just yet to get to the second level and back side. Now if he was with the Seahawks he likely would be the perfect LG to put next to Walter Jones. Like you are saying when he gets experience he should be a monster at the LT position. His lateral quickness is good, but when he opens his hips he does not close the gate fast enough if you understand that term. I personally would not play him at G unless I had to. If it came to that I would likely move Pitts out to LT insert Weigert to LG and then play Winston at RT. Hopefully our line stays healthy though and we dont have to do all that flip flopping.

I was thinking more in terms of the 2007-2008 seasons when we start losing vets like McKinney and Weigert. Injuries may accelerate that to this year though. ugh.

There is the chance that Wand will be successful in this system. Swallow hard, close your eyes, and accept that premise for this post. :) If that occurs, a season after this we may see a line that includes Wand, Pitts, Spencer, and Winston. I was wondering what we do if we ended up with three (3!) quality tackles. Talk about a personality change for the Texans.

AFD1717
07-21-2006, 04:57 PM
Winston is in the mix if he is more ready to play than both of them. Winston right now is the better prospect, but due to Winston's athleticsm they want him on the right. That is not saying he is not athletic, it is saying they need a guy who can move on the right side which is the side they are prone to move toward. Winston is better suited to move with Carr and any RB to that side, and since Carr is right handed he fits better on that side.
Maybe I don't understand how o-line play works as well as I thought, but don't you want your athletic guys on the left because that lines them up against the more athletic DEs? I understand that Winston and Spencer are both athletic, so either one would fit at LT but if Winston is more athletic I'd rather see him try to mirror Dwight Freeney while Spencer matches up with the bigger, stronger guy on the other side. Am I wrong?

TK_Gamer
07-21-2006, 11:20 PM
the LT needs strength leverage and long arms and is the anchor. he ties up the speed rusher holds his ground. the right tackle has to be more mobile cuz he slides over matching the point of attack and gives the qb an egress lane by forcing the LE inside where the right guard can help out. this is pure pass blocking and completely changes on running plays. this is my observation anyway.

AFD1717
07-22-2006, 12:21 AM
the LT needs strength leverage and long arms and is the anchor. he ties up the speed rusher holds his ground. the right tackle has to be more mobile cuz he slides over matching the point of attack and gives the qb an egress lane by forcing the LE inside where the right guard can help out. this is pure pass blocking and completely changes on running plays. this is my observation anyway.
"Tying up the speed rushers" sounds like a job for the most athletic tackle you have, but again - I'm no expert. I just always hear about players coming into the draft being athletic enough to play LT or possibly having to move inside or to RT.

socalfan
07-22-2006, 12:38 AM
If you ask any rookie what the difference is between college and the pros they will tell you the speed. Spencer may be athletic, good foot work etc., but he hasn't seen the speed of defenses in the NFL. If they put him in at left tackle say goodbye to Carr. Winston will take longer to adjust to the NFL. He had a very average senior year if you watched any of his games and didn't play too well in the Senior Bowl. He is still trying to get over his injuries, could be he can't get the fear of injury out of his mind. Just my opinion. I also think his ego is getting in the way of his signing a contract, thinks he should have been drafted higher.

TK_Gamer
07-22-2006, 01:08 AM
"Tying up the speed rushers" sounds like a job for the most athletic tackle you have, but again - I'm no expert. I just always hear about players coming into the draft being athletic enough to play LT or possibly having to move inside or to RT.

the right tackle has to be strong and quick, but the LT needs a rare combination of athletic skills strength, footwork, quickness, agility, and i guess the hardest being leverage and technique, thats why mediocre LT's move to RT or guard. the leverage and technique in combination with footwork allows them to "tie up" the speed rusher without being forced to turn their body and grabbing the defender drawing a holding call. I guess this cobination of skills is so rare its almost genetic.

AFD1717
07-22-2006, 12:45 PM
the right tackle has to be strong and quick, but the LT needs a rare combination of athletic skills strength, footwork, quickness, agility, and i guess the hardest being leverage and technique, thats why mediocre LT's move to RT or guard. the leverage and technique in combination with footwork allows them to "tie up" the speed rusher without being forced to turn their body and grabbing the defender drawing a holding call. I guess this cobination of skills is so rare its almost genetic.
So a good RT is athletic and a good LT is just a plain freak. I get it.

Thanks.

MorKnolle
07-22-2006, 01:51 PM
So a good RT is athletic and a good LT is just a plain freak. I get it.

Thanks.

That also somewhat depends on the offensive system. Obviously for a left handed QB you're likely going to switch those two so your RT is protecting the QB's blind side, but some offenses also change things around (i.e. it looks like Winston is our RT because he's more athletic and they won't to move the pocket outside to the right side more often so they'd prefer the more athletic Winston out there.

socalfan
07-23-2006, 12:42 AM
How do you know that Winston is so athletic? From reports from fans? Watching film? Know someone? Just curious.

socalfan
07-23-2006, 12:44 AM
One other comment, I know he is large but size has its disadvantages. Not only that but most of the techniques used are different than what these guys are used to using in the college game. Alot of lineman have a hard time adjusting.

TexanFan881
07-23-2006, 12:45 AM
Winston was supposed to be a first round pick and the #2 offensive lineman taken atleast until he got injured and even still he was projected late first-early second when we snatched him in the third. We've got first round talent out of the pick of Eric Winston and once he shows he has fully recovered from his passed injury (if he still hasn't already) get ready to see him play like a first round talent.

WiiBrawler
07-23-2006, 12:46 AM
The one Im gonna be intrigued to see is the 3 WR spot, is Walters gonna play there or will Derick Armstrong

BigDTexansFan
07-23-2006, 12:51 AM
Winston as yet is unsigned AND his agent is Mr. Next Question........Drew Rosenhaus, I think ESPN forsees a holdout by Mr. Winston. I must admit with the other 3rd round pick and Texans signing #2 and #4 picks giving you a window as to price you can ask, what is the hold up...OOPS Next Question

socalfan
07-23-2006, 01:13 AM
How do you know he will play like first round talent? Key work in your post "until he got injured". Texans didn't exactly snatch him in the third round. If he is a first round talent, why was he still around in the 3rd? Depends on coaches and scouting depts., how they evaluate talent. One thing they really can't evaluate is how a player in college will come back and play in the NFL. Whole different ball game. Speed Kills!!

threetoedpete
07-23-2006, 10:47 AM
I think Winston fits more of a Rt side tackle. Am I wrong here?:shoot:

I'm with you. JMHO Eric's Knee needs another year to heal to be were he was when he was touted as a OLT phenom his sophmore year. If we're lucky, the knee bounces back to the point where we don't have to pick another OLT in '07. If we're not lucky, we have a very quick right tackle who fits this scheme
very, very well.

Flanagan....I'm taking with a Bosselli sized grain of salt. If it was my team rebuild, I start him on the pine and let the kid play. If he's got ten games left in tank...I'd rather have them available in the middle to the end of the year.
If the Kid plays well, we're two deep at center. The Kid needs the reps not Flanagan.

Spencer has the feet to beat out Wand. Either way, we should be smiling. We'll be three deep at OLT if they all work out. This is the deepest we've ever been at the OLT position. Took us four years to recover from Bosselli disater. But....starting out with that opening schedule, learning to act in concert with one another....gonna be tough. Plays into the hands of the Carr Haters.

Mac I've got marked down as the end of camp surprise. We'll see. I'd be very surprised if Pitts is the odd man out.

threetoedpete
07-23-2006, 11:00 AM
Runner Spencer would be a nice guard, but not sure in this system. His footwork is good, ......

Spencer's foot work is not just good....it's outstanding. Read...he can get out in space and destroy faster LB's, DB's in space. I.E. in this system, he cuts his back side guy down or passes off his guy to the gaurd, he's a one man wrecking crew in space on the second level. Now whether or not we get good enough in this system to get OL's into the second level wreaking havoc and let slip the dogs of war...that's the big gorrilla. We'll see in the Philly game.

nunusguy
07-23-2006, 11:06 AM
JMHO Eric's Knee needs another year to heal to be were he was when he was touted as a OLT phenom his sophmore year. If we're lucky, the knee bounces back to the point where we don't have to pick another OLT in '07. If we're not lucky, we have a very quick right tackle who fits this scheme

I would think that Winston's knee should be fully recovered by now. Afterall he suffered the injury early in the 2004 season, so it will soon be 2 full years
since he was hurt. I mean dang, look at the announcement just made that Wong may now be ready to play in the season opener. His very severe injury which included multiple surgeries to repair was incured just late last year, or less that 12 months ago.

threetoedpete
07-23-2006, 11:32 AM
Yeh well it's a very deep casim from being a servicable OLT and being an Elite OLT . I'm saying IF Erick recovers fully, Kubiak has a very tough decidsion in '07 who starts at OLT. He's not there yet. He had the tallent to work back to that point. The knee MAY never be as good as it once was, to be projected as an elite OLT.
The reason Gale Sayers is in the HOF: He did it as a Reggie Bush scat back. Then He tore up his knee serverly. Then he did it as a Walter Payton between the tackles power back. Big difference in getting a scope and repairing legimate damage. Lots of folks never come back to their full speed at all.

CloakNNNdagger
07-23-2006, 11:53 AM
Yeh well it's a very deep casim from being a servicable OLT and being an Elite OLT . I'm saying IF Erick recovers fully, Kubiak has a very tough decidsion in '07 who starts at OLT. He's not there yet. He had the tallent to work back to that point. The knee MAY never be as good as it once was, to be projected as an elite OLT.
The reason Gale Sayers is in the HOF: He did it as a Reggie Bush scat back. Then He tore up his knee serverly. Then he did it as a Walter Payton between the tackles power back. Big difference in getting a scope and repairing legimate damage. Lots of folks never come back to their full speed at all.
************

Indeed, Wong's and Winston's injuries and surgeries were on a different scales. Wong simply tore a patellar tendon and his lateral meniscus.....and under went arthroscopic surgery. Winston sustained a much more serious major anterior cruciate tear and required open surgery. Winston had more serious injury and the type of surgery that requires a good 2 years of rehab in most cases to return, if at all as TTP has pointed out. With the progress he has made thus far, it is very likely that he returns to expected form.

the wonger need food
07-23-2006, 12:15 PM
************

Indeed, Wong's and Winston's injuries and surgeries were on a different scales. Wong simply tore a patellar tendon and his lateral meniscus.....and under went arthroscopic surgery. Winston sustained a much more serious major anterior cruciate tear and required open surgery. Winston had more serious injury and the type of surgery that requires a good 2 years of rehab in most cases to return, if at all as TTP has pointed out. With the progress he has made thus far, it is very likely that he returns to expected form.


Wong's knee injuries were more serious than you describe... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4064536.html

CloakNNNdagger
07-23-2006, 12:42 PM
Wong's knee injuries were more serious than you describe... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4064536.html

Thanks for the additional info/link.

This does seem like a surprisingly quick recovery for anterior cruciate "reconstruction" (which requires tendon and/or bone grafting), unless this was actually a "repair" where the ligament was torn away from the bone with an attached bone chip (which requires only simple fixation). In either case, an arthroscopic repair affects a quicker recovery. I think both are doing well. The greatest concern, which they will hopefully avoid, is re-injury.

nunusguy
07-23-2006, 01:25 PM
Thanks for the additional info/link.
This does seem like a surprisingly quick recovery for anterior cruciate "reconstruction" (which requires tendon and/or bone grafting), unless this was actually a "repair" where the ligament was torn away from the bone with an attached bone chip (which requires only simple fixation). In either case, an arthroscopic repair affects a quicker recovery. I think both are doing well. The greatest concern, which they will hopefully avoid, is re-injury.
I've already seen that link that Wonger posted, and even though I'm anything
but a medical professional, a laymen senses the severity of a knee injury
that involves multiple ligaments or tendons, and when they start using lanquage like potentialy career ending, a laymen can also kinda glean the seriousness of the situation.
Now I suspect the medical procedure done to DD at the end of last year
was more along the lines of a moderately serious injury that you thought Wong had ?
Is it your assessment that Winston is basically "out of the woods" now in terms of a high degree of risk of reinjury, or is there always going to be a
high degree of risk of him suffering reinjury as long as he plays ball ?
And does Winston need a third year for his knee to completely recover and
regain its full functionality ?

Texan in Japan
07-23-2006, 02:24 PM
Position battles I'm interested in seeing...

RDE: Babin vs Peek
LB: All positions
LT: Wand vs Spencer
3rd WR: Armstrong vs Walters
2nd TE: several to choose from
RDT: Smith vs Payne
5th (and maybe 6th) WR: Young hungry guys
3rd QB: hopefully some potential
2nd CB: Faggins vs PBuch
2nd maybe 1st RB: Morency vs Smith vs ??

keyfro
07-23-2006, 02:36 PM
i'm just curious to see how both lines will eventually settle out...will our o-line be anchored by a rookie LT and possible rookie RT at the sametime with weigert injury prone as it is...just how will the DT rotation work with weaver, TJ, robaire, and seth payne all deserving time on the field

edo783
07-23-2006, 02:37 PM
Position battles I'm interested in seeing...

RDE: Babin vs Peek
LB: All positions
LT: Wand vs Spencer
3rd WR: Armstrong vs Walters
2nd TE: several to choose from
RDT: Smith vs Payne
5th (and maybe 6th) WR: Young hungry guys
3rd QB: hopefully some potential
2nd CB: Faggins vs PBuch
2nd maybe 1st RB: Morency vs Smith vs ??

Those seem to be the key ones along with the general how are Carr, Mario and the offense and defense doing type questions. Hopefully AJ, TC, Morknoll, Coach and a few of the others that seem to have fairly good access to the team will keep us outland heathen appraised of the battles as they are able.

Wolf
07-23-2006, 03:09 PM
from ourlads and yes, I know Weaver is moving inside and not sure about payne being behind johnson and Babin/Peek being behind Williams (maybe opposite side of Williams)

LDE 92 Weaver Anthony U/Bal 94 KALU ND U/Phi
LDT 75 Johnson Travis 05/1 91 PAYNE Seth X/Jax
RDT 99 Smith Robaire U/Ten 97 Malone Alfred CF05
RDE 90 Williams Mario 06/1~ 93 Babin Jason 04/1 98 Peek Antwan 03/3

the potential of this group (maybe the homer in me)
I am not saying this is next coming of "The bull rush" (or insert any catchy phrase), but as a group as a whole looks like lots of flexibility

I could see Weaver being moved to DE at times and for us to create mismatches with rotation.

now the LB crew is another story
http://www.ourlads.com/secure/depthchart.cfm?index1=HOU

Wolf
07-23-2006, 03:21 PM
the position battles I want to see is

1) the lines
2) Wr's versus the DB's


I want to see travis Johnson become the best DL in the 2005 draft (as reported on some draft sites)

CloakNNNdagger
07-23-2006, 03:57 PM
I've already seen that link that Wonger posted, and even though I'm anything
but a medical professional, a laymen senses the severity of a knee injury
that involves multiple ligaments or tendons, and when they start using lanquage like potentialy career ending, a laymen can also kinda glean the seriousness of the situation.
Now I suspect the medical procedure done to DD at the end of last year
was more along the lines of a moderately serious injury that you thought Wong had ?
Is it your assessment that Winston is basically "out of the woods" now in terms of a high degree of risk of reinjury, or is there always going to be a
high degree of risk of him suffering reinjury as long as he plays ball ?
And does Winston need a third year for his knee to completely recover and
regain its full functionality ?

Winston was injured and underwent surgery near the beginning of the 2004 season. He did very commendably under the cicumstances during the 2005 season. He was said to be possibly playing a little tentatively compared to preinjury.......this would be expected. However, he had no set backs during his playtime. Reinjury is always a concern with this type of injury. However, looking at his 2005 performance, I believe that he has properly strengthened his collateral support structures, and 1) should have a relatively low risk of reinjury (barring freak accident), and 2) have an excellent chance of regaining his preinjury form which would have seen him being taken in the top 10 of the 2006 draft.

As for DD, I'm very concerned that after this much time following arthroscopic meniscus surgery, he is experiencing continued postoperative problems which may take him back to the knife. I hope I'm wrong.

Hope this gives you somethingto "hang your hat on."

nunusguy
07-23-2006, 04:13 PM
Hope this gives you somethingto "hang your hat on."
You make Winston's situation sound encouraging, but the tone for DD is
kinda ominous. Hope you're wrong to, but we'll just have to wait to see.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on both players.

MorKnolle
07-23-2006, 07:21 PM
Those seem to be the key ones along with the general how are Carr, Mario and the offense and defense doing type questions. Hopefully AJ, TC, Morknoll, Coach and a few of the others that seem to have fairly good access to the team will keep us outland heathen appraised of the battles as they are able.

I should be at every practice that is open, so I'll be happy to report anything I see, and I know coach will be there for most if not all of them too so we might get together for a few longer posts in there.

from ourlads and yes, I know Weaver is moving inside and not sure about payne being behind johnson and Babin/Peek being behind Williams (maybe opposite side of Williams)

LDE 92 Weaver Anthony U/Bal 94 KALU ND U/Phi
LDT 75 Johnson Travis 05/1 91 PAYNE Seth X/Jax
RDT 99 Smith Robaire U/Ten 97 Malone Alfred CF05
RDE 90 Williams Mario 06/1~ 93 Babin Jason 04/1 98 Peek Antwan 03/3

the potential of this group (maybe the homer in me)
I am not saying this is next coming of "The bull rush" (or insert any catchy phrase), but as a group as a whole looks like lots of flexibility

I could see Weaver being moved to DE at times and for us to create mismatches with rotation.

now the LB crew is another story
http://www.ourlads.com/secure/depthchart.cfm?index1=HOU

I only see this happening on goalline or other short yardage situations, I think they'll always want Peek/Babin out there to provide better pass rushing abilities on any other down.

MorKnolle
07-23-2006, 07:26 PM
Winston was injured and underwent surgery near the beginning of the 2004 season. He did very commendably under the cicumstances during the 2005 season. He was said to be possibly playing a little tentatively compared to preinjury.......this would be expected. However, he had no set backs during his playtime. Reinjury is always a concern with this type of injury. However, looking at his 2005 performance, I believe that he has properly strengthened his collateral support structures, and 1) should have a relatively low risk of reinjury (barring freak accident), and 2) have an excellent chance of regaining his preinjury form which would have seen him being taken in the top 10 of the 2006 draft.

As for DD, I'm very concerned that after this much time following arthroscopic meniscus surgery, he is experiencing continued postoperative problems which may take him back to the knife. I hope I'm wrong.

Hope this gives you somethingto "hang your hat on."

Thanks for the medical info on this. Despite how poorly most people seem to think Winston played last year, he was voted ACC OLineman of the year over the almighty D'Brickashaw Ferguson and everyone else in the conference. Also, before his injury he was regarded as the best OLineman in NCAA along with Robert Gallery, and that was just Winston's sophomore year and 1st year as a full-time OT (he came into college at a TE).

TexanFan881
07-23-2006, 07:29 PM
The #2 RB situation should be quite the battle going into training camp if we don't get anyone else on the roster.

Vernand Morency: Has been struggling in the one cut system and hasn't shined much light so far in his career

Antowain Smith: Brought in to be a situational back but could see a significant amount of carries (which would be bad) if DD can't stay healthy

Wali Lundy: Perfect pick in the sixth round for us and he'll fit into the system perfectly. I wouldn't be suprised to see him become another significant pick in the sixth round for us and I would be suprised if he gets under 75 carries this year

Chris Taylor: He's been impressive to a point and I wouldn't be suprised to see Vernand out the door if he can't get his act together and we might be able to use him as trade bait to get someone who will actually be useful for us. Antowain Smith might have a decent amount of talent but his age is against him.

CloakNNNdagger
07-23-2006, 07:52 PM
Thanks for the medical info on this. Despite how poorly most people seem to think Winston played last year, he was voted ACC OLineman of the year over the almighty D'Brickashaw Ferguson and everyone else in the conference. Also, before his injury he was regarded as the best OLineman in NCAA along with Robert Gallery, and that was just Winston's sophomore year and 1st year as a full-time OT (he came into college at a TE).


I couldn't help but post this entire draft profile (Fox Sports) (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/draft/prospect?contentId=5528150) on Winston which I came across a while back.........and he's Texas home grown :


Eric Winston Draft Profile
ERIC WINSTON
Offensive Tackle
University of Miami Hurricanes
#74
6:06.5-310
Midland, Texas
Lee High School


OVERVIEW
Winston reclaimed his position as one of the best offensive tackles in college football in 2005, proving that he was fully recovered from a knee injury that cost him most of his 2004 season. The former tight end made a successful move to tackle in 2003 and became a dominating presence and the Hurricanes' most vocal leader. He has the size, athletic ability, intelligence and work ethic that position coach Art Kehoe compares to Bryant McKinnie and Leon Searcy, calling them the three best offensive tackles in UM history.

Winston led the Lee High School team to three Texas Class 5A titles in four seasons, competing as a tight end and defensive end. He earned Super Prep National Elite 50 Team and Prep Stars Top 125 Dream Team honors and was rated the second-best tight end in the country by both of those recruiting services. Tom Lemming rated Winston the best tight end in the high school ranks and he was an All-America pick by Prep Football Report.

The Dallas Morning News National Top 100 choice was a first-team All-America pick by ESPN.com and a two-time first-team All-State selection by the Texas Sportswriters Association. He added first-team All-USA Today honors as he caught 20 passes for 210 yards and three touchdowns as a senior. He also made 13 catches for 325 yards and a score as a junior.

Winston chose Miami over Texas A&M, Louisiana State and Texas, appearing in 13 games as a reserve tight end in 2002. He finished the season with 13 yards on a pair of catches, moving to tackle after the season. He quickly adapted to playing on the offensive line, ranking second on the squad with 46 key blocks.

Winston started the first four games of the 2004 season at left tackle before a knee injury vs. Georgia Tech forced him to miss the rest of the season. He returned to action in 2005 and continued to improve as the season progressed. He was named the Atlantic Coast Conference's Jacobs Trophy winner, given to the conference's top offensive lineman. He ended his career with 61 key blocks and also saw action at tight end in several formations to take advantage of his quickness.

ANALYSIS

Positives: Has a tall, wide frame with good shoulder width, tight waist and good knee bend...Has good body control and change of direction agility....Shows an explosive burst off the snap and very good sustained speed to get into the second level...Plays flat-footed, showing no problems redirecting...Has above average agility in his kick slide, doing a very good job of sinking his hips, dropping his weight and bending his knees while generating enough strength to anchor...His suddenness off the ball allows him to create and hold open the rush lanes...Shows a sudden burst to gain advantage and his quick feet will generally see him gain position when blocking in-line...Adept in sliding out to pick up edge rushers in pass protection...Has ease of movement redirecting in either direction and accelerates instantly when stalking defenders in the second level...Positions himself well and gets his hands up quickly on the rise, generating strength with quickness to impact, pop and surge with sudden force...Displays very good hip and leg explosion, as well as a strong jolt with his hand punch...Good in-line blocker, possessing a wide base as he runs his feet well...Has the athleticism to stay up and play the game on his feet and is capable of coming off the snap smoothly to pull...Does a good job of initiating contact and following through with his hand placement and leg drive to sustain...Strong enough to stay up in his stance, maintaining proper pad level to keep his feet and adjust on the move...The thing you notice on film is his ability to consistently take good blocking angles to neutralize and cut off linebackers. His athletic ability is shown when he makes quick adjustments to pick up secondary defenders downfield...Keeps his head on a swivel, showing above average reactions and awareness on both running and passing plays...Has no problems handling movement, as his kick slide allows him to adjust laterally...Shows explosion and flexibility when changing direction.

Negatives: His tall, angular frame makes him appear too lean for the left tackle position and his skinny legs and no stomach give him more of an appearance of a basketball player, reminding some of former Chicago Bears bust Troy Auzenne (1992-96)...More of a finesse-type player and will not be confused for a mauler...Needs to play with more aggression...Still learning the blocking schemes and struggled some with his kick slide early in 2005, as his timed speed does not always translate to the field...Works to sustain, but fails to dominate, as he lacks the arm reach and extension to lock on, steer and drive the defender off the ball...Needs to add lower body power, as he can be stood up vs. a strong bull rush due to marginal leg base and anchor...Short-arms quite a bit in pass protection, allowing defenders to slip off some blocks, and has trouble making reach blocks, especially when working off the edge...Still learning the "little tricks" like getting underneath to grab and ride the defender out.

Winston is a rare-sized athlete, but his tall, angular frame makes him appear too lean to play the left tackle position. He has very good flexibility, stays low in his pads and shows ease of movement changing directions. Winston has above average balance that gives him the ability to adjust on the move. His initial quickness allows him to explode into the defender coming off the snap.

Winston is rarely beaten to the tackle set-point by quicker defensive ends, as he shows the foot agility to mirror. His flexibility allows him to easily adjust when working in space. The thing you love about this kid is that he works extremely hard to improve. On run blocks, he shows above average quickness, but needs to get his hands on defenders quicker, generate a stronger base on drive blocks and improve his leg drive to get movement. He can run his feet, stay up and sustain his blocks, but is not as tough and aggressive as you would like to see when attempting to finish.

Winston does a very good job of chipping and getting to the second level, showing the ability to break down and stay under control. He is quick getting out in front to pull, runs well in the open and has the body control to turn up the hole. He is adept at hitting a moving target in space and overall, does a solid job in pass protection, thanks to his quick feet, knee bend, patience and ability to sink his hips.

Winston has the body control to redirect and has strong hands, but needs to generate better pop and deliver the hand punch quicker. He gets good hand positioning and shows explosion with his punch to jolt and gain control, but sometimes will drop his hands and fail to reload. He is still learning the "little tricks" like getting underneath to grab and ride the defender out, but continues to make steady progress. He might have to shift inside in the pros, as his arms are shorter than ideal, posing some problems making the reach block.

Winston can make a very nice tackle-eligible performer, as he has large, natural hands to extend for the ball away from the body. He is an excellent worker on the practice field and in the weight room and a quiet leader with outstanding work ethic. Winston wins sprints in practices and does the little extras in the weight room to improve.

Winston will need to bulk up or possibly shift positions at the next level, as he does not have the size yet to handle big, physical defenders, but he shows great determination. He earned the ACC Jacobs Trophy, and if you believe the school's publicity department that he allowed only 0.5 sacks in 2005. He actually allowed 3.5 sacks, but most came early in the season while he was still rounding into playing shape.

INJURY REPORT

2004: Sat out the final eight games of the season after he suffered a left knee torn anterior cruciate ligament vs. Georgia Tech (10/02).

2006: Could not lift at the NFL scouting combine due to a left pectoral muscle strain.

CAREER NOTES

Began his Miami career as a tight end and still saw action at that position in several formations, taking advantage of his quickness...Was often lined up alongside fellow tackle Rashad Butler in an overbalanced line (and sometimes alongside two other tackles).

AGILITY TESTS

Combine: 4.96 in the 40-yard dash...2.82 20-yard dash...1.67 10-yard dash...29-inch vertical jump...9'0" broad jump...4.44 20-yard shuttle...7.47 three-cone drill.

HIGH SCHOOL

Attended Lee (Midland, Tex.) High School, playing football for head coach John Parchman...Led the team to three Texas Class 5A titles in four seasons, competing as a tight end and defensive end...Earned Super Prep National Elite 50 Team and Prep Stars Top 125 Dream Team honors and was rated the second-best tight end in the country by both of those recruiting services...Tom Lemming rated Winston the best tight end in the high school ranks...He was an All-America pick by Prep Football Report...The Dallas Morning News National Top 100 choice was a first-team All-America pick by ESPN.com and a two-time first-team All-State selection by the Texas Sportswriters Association... Added first-team All-USA Today honors as he caught 20 passes for 210 yards and three touchdowns as a senior...Made 13 catches for 325 yards and a score as a junior.

PERSONAL

Finance major...Son of Julie Syptak and Robert Winston...Born 11/17/83...Resides in Midland, Texas.

threetoedpete
07-23-2006, 10:05 PM
thanks for all the info Doc.
I'm just a Lay guy looking at football players for awhile. I don't think and never stated Eric was a bad lineman. I just had a problem with taking him with the thirty two. OK ? Getting him where we got him, I'm fine with. Seeing what I saw at the Sr. bowl, I knew the guy just wasn't quite there yet. By that I mean I have no doubt he can play well this year. But I don't think he's ready to go against Freeny just yet. OK ? He's a very good prospect. I'm glad we have him.


One of the sadest things I ever saw was the summer camp after
Alonzo Highsmith had his knee done. As soon as I saw him, I knew he was done.

threetoedpete
07-23-2006, 10:15 PM
"The Texans' medical staff soon found that Wong, 30, had ruptured the patellar tendon, tore his anterior cruciate ligament and badly damaged his lateral meniscus. ......that Wong's career was over."

urlhttp://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4064536.html (url)
OK Doc, is there a place on the web where a kncukle dragger like me can go and read up on this ?
NM, going to make up thread and mark it.

http://www.ehealthmd.com/library/acltears/ACL_whatis.html
http://www.ehealthmd.com/library/acltears/ACL_whatis.html
[url]http://www.arthroscopy.com/patendrep.htm[url]http://www.arthroscopy.com/patendrep.htm

CloakNNNdagger
07-24-2006, 02:55 PM
"The Texans' medical staff soon found that Wong, 30, had ruptured the patellar tendon, tore his anterior cruciate ligament and badly damaged his lateral meniscus. ......that Wong's career was over."

urlhttp://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4064536.html (url)
OK Doc, is there a place on the web where a kncukle dragger like me can go and read up on this ?
NM, going to make up thread and mark it.

http://www.ehealthmd.com/library/acltears/ACL_whatis.html
http://www.ehealthmd.com/library/acltears/ACL_whatis.html
[url]http://www.arthroscopy.com/patendrep.htm[url]http://www.arthroscopy.com/patendrep.htm


This link is a pretty good lay explanation for all aspects of ACL injury (http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/aclrepain/a/acl.htm). Their estimate of when you can begin "cutting" and "lateral" movements is the Bare Minimum. As far as when all the supportive structures are restrengthened to tolerate constant and severe stresses is variable, but will usually take at least another year. During that time most players will also be trying to regain confidence that if they "push" themselves to the max, they will not reinjure themselves..........never regaining the confidence has done in many an athlete.

Remember that even in our scheme, Winston does not require the same severe repetitive cutting and lateral movements which are called upon a LB like Wong. And therefore, the real test that Wong will experience is one of real-time game stresses. He would be the one most likely to suffer reinjury. Hopefully the staff will allow Wong the added time for his support structures to add protection to his newly reconstructed knee.