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View Full Version : Reggie or Mario ??


BroussardSaint
07-10-2006, 12:20 AM
Who will help their team go farther in the NFL ?? WHY??

bayoudreamn
07-10-2006, 12:27 AM
Who will help their team go farther in the NFL ?? WHY??

lol....you're kidding, right? It's not who you think.

mexican_texan
07-10-2006, 12:48 AM
Think Mario Williams was a bad pick? Read this (http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/2006/06/the_ultimate_mario_williams_co_1.html)
Mario Williams info pt. 2 (http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/2006/06/mario_williams_compendium_part_1.html)

bayoudreamn
07-10-2006, 12:56 AM
WHAT???

Based on your alvatar, I would assume that Bush is the player you expect. I disagree.

mexican_texan
07-10-2006, 01:08 AM
WOW! if i had the time i would read blogs by as many females as i could. but it won;t happen. my post was a simple question. but as the norm on Texans sites is that most are insecure and would rather turn the attention on other teams failures ETC... I AM a fan of the Texans but find it funny how Ya'll want to focus on other teams.
Just because we're Texans fans, that doesn't mean we all act the same. We've been hearing about Bush longer than you guys have, so we may know JUST A BIT more than y'all. Back on topic, Williams should have a bigger impact as good DE's have more of an impact than RB/WRs like Bush.

bayoudreamn
07-10-2006, 01:15 AM
WOW! if i had the time i would read blogs by as many females as i could. but it won;t happen. my post was a simple question. but as the norm on Texans sites is that most are insecure and would rather turn the attention on other teams failures ETC... I AM a fan of the Texans but find it funny how Ya'll want to focus on other teams.

I grew up in Louisiana. I'm well aware of the Saints history so I don't consider myself to be picking on a team I'm not familiar with. I watched the Saints, and hoped, until the Texans inaugural season.....then finally had enough of the Saints.

LORK 88
07-10-2006, 01:21 AM
Williams will, Bush is stuck behind McAllister who was a great back before he got injured. You can only make so much of an impact when you split carries. Mario gets to start from day 1 and will anchor our new defense with Ryans and Robinson.

mexican_texan
07-10-2006, 01:43 AM
SO!! how long will it be before you jump the bandwagon again?
He can't jump on something that doesn't exist. :stirpot:

Hutch13
07-10-2006, 01:46 AM
Mario Williams because he has no one in his way of stoping him unlike Bush who has to split Carries with Deuce.

DocBar
07-10-2006, 05:15 AM
I still wonder about RB's ability to carry the load. He's never done that before. Also, why would you want to pay #2 overall $$ to a part-time back? Will he be a wideout also? I haven't been able to find out much about him because the sAints shut down their fan message boards because of, well, the fans inability to act in accordance with the norms of society. ANYWAY, how's he looking? Is he splitting time between RB and any other positions?

DocBar
07-10-2006, 07:08 AM
]']Bush is a good player, but we needed help on defense bad. Mario was the clear choice for us. I think bush would have given us numbers, but mario will give us wins because he will improve everybody on the defense.


:hunter:
Good post

powerfuldragon
07-10-2006, 07:21 AM
I need to wait to see both of them play in at least one game before i make an assumption. Otherwise, i'd just be guessing.

HJam72
07-10-2006, 07:28 AM
Honestly, I think Bush will make a bigger impact at first, but there are questions and Mario will outlast him. In the end, it may be a toss up as to who was the better player (after Mario finally finishes his career), but Mario was probably the better choice for us. We're switching to the 4-3 and we have DD and a zone blocking scheme. We need Mario more.

AFD1717
07-10-2006, 08:58 AM
I think Bush will have a rookie year full of inconsistency mixed with a few moments of greatness. After that, he will be a regular on Sportscenter just like at USC and will be one of the most dangerous men in the game and will probably be anong the leaders in total yards. In about 6 or years his body will start to break down and he'll need to become what Marshall Faulk was the last couple of seasons (don't know if his ego will let him share the rock). Bush IMO is the Michael Vick of RBs.

Mario keeps getting compared to Peppers, but he is really more like Reggie White. He will never get the hype White had because he isn't as vocal. I expect his sack numbers will be a little disappointing to some becuase he won't be asked to pin his ears back on every play like Dwight Freeney, but he will be in the top 5 in the league in sacks for about a decade.

Bush will sell more gear, but he's a shooting star. Give me Mario.

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 09:12 AM
well i hope ya'll don't all act the same. cause i got beat up once in houston for wearing stretchy pants... LOL:redtowel:

I apologize for that......... I was having a bad day.

Back to the original question.

Duece should count for 2000 yards of offense for ya...... 1600 on the ground, 400 recieving.

Joe Horn...... should count for 1000 yards recieving......and then some
Stalworth..... another 1000, unless you cut him.... I wouldn't imagine it, but I wouldn't put it past ya...

Boo Williams, Zach Hilton, Ernie Cornwell........ you normally get 500+ yards out of your tightends....

The only way Bush can make an impact on your team, is if all those guys hit those numbers, in addition to what Reggie Does.....

So lets say the Saints rush for over 2000 yards, and Reggie counted for 500 of that....... is that a big impact?? I don't think so......

Lets say Duece get's hurt........ and Reggie rushes for 1300 yards.... is that a big impact?? only if a) Michael Bennette proved to be useless, or b) Michael Bennette gets hurt again...

Same goes for your recieving Core..... I already see 4000 yards for Drew Brees. To throw Reggie in there, he'll have to throw for more than 4000..... not likely to happen... so, somebody has to get hurt, and Reggie has to take up their slack..... because if Reggie's numbers go up, and someone else's goes down, then he's not adding anything the team didn't already have... not making an impact. If you're getting 2000 recieving yards out of your recievers, and after adding Reggie, you are still getting 2000 recieving yards, he's made no impact....

now we were ranked 30th against the pass, and 31st against the run(something god awful like that)......... if we move up to mid league...... 15 or 16 range and/or top 10 total defense, then we're all going to give a little credit to the 4-3(as opposed to the 3-4) and a lot to the big guy.

real
07-10-2006, 09:39 AM
I apologize for that......... I was having a bad day.

Back to the original question.

Duece should count for 2000 yards of offense for ya...... 1600 on the ground, 400 recieving.

Joe Horn...... should count for 1000 yards recieving......and then some
Stalworth..... another 1000, unless you cut him.... I wouldn't imagine it, but I wouldn't put it past ya...

Boo Williams, Zach Hilton, Ernie Cornwell........ you normally get 500+ yards out of your tightends....

The only way Bush can make an impact on your team, is if all those guys hit those numbers, in addition to what Reggie Does.....

So lets say the Saints rush for over 2000 yards, and Reggie counted for 500 of that....... is that a big impact?? I don't think so......

Lets say Duece get's hurt........ and Reggie rushes for 1300 yards.... is that a big impact?? only if a) Michael Bennette proved to be useless, or b) Michael Bennette gets hurt again...

Same goes for your recieving Core..... I already see 4000 yards for Drew Brees. To throw Reggie in there, he'll have to throw for more than 4000..... not likely to happen... so, somebody has to get hurt, and Reggie has to take up their slack..... because if Reggie's numbers go up, and someone else's goes down, then he's not adding anything the team didn't already have... not making an impact. If you're getting 2000 recieving yards out of your recievers, and after adding Reggie, you are still getting 2000 recieving yards, he's made no impact....


What is this fascination with stats??? If Reggie Bush Gets One yard A game...But that one yard a game scores the game winning TD...Has he made no impact? He may take away from other players yardage, but that doesn't mean he hasn't made an impact....Thats ridiculous...I guess the same can be said about Mario then...If he doesn't add any more tackles or sacks than we had last year then he's made no impact...or if someone elses sack numbers go down, while his go up he hasn't added anything else we already didn't have....This double standard is crazy...Mario will make an impact that doesn't show up in stats..Double teams, taking up blockers..and Bush will make an impact in other ways as well....

DocBar
07-10-2006, 09:55 AM
What is this fascination with stats??? If Reggie Bush Gets One yard A game...But that one yard a game scores the game winning TD...Has he made no impact? He may take away from other players yardage, but that doesn't mean he hasn't made an impact....Thats ridiculous...I guess the same can be said about Mario then...If he doesn't add any more tackles or sacks than we had last year then he's made no impact...or if someone elses sack numbers go down, while his go up he hasn't added anything else we already didn't have....This double standard is crazy...Mario will make an impact that doesn't show up in stats..Double teams, taking up blockers..and Bush will make an impact in other ways as well....
Statistically speaking, I have to agree with you. :cool:
I just can't see 4,000 yds. for Brees with him coming off of shoulder surgery. 3,000 would be a good year for him.

SESupergenius
07-10-2006, 10:01 AM
Initially Mario Williams will have a bigger impact because he will be the designated started, whereas Bush will be a 3rd down type back and special teams player. It may turn out that McAllister will not be the same with his injury or may get hurt again, but Bush is clearly playing 2nd fiddle going into camp. In a couple of years however, Bush may be the only starter and should have a bigger impact considering he would touch the ball more and directly score points.

Hulk75
07-10-2006, 10:05 AM
Who will help their team go farther in the NFL ?? WHY??
MARIO.............Reggie plays for the Saints.:yahoo:

DocBar
07-10-2006, 10:07 AM
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the man who would be our saviour is going to be playing 2nd fiddle on a team that was just as bad last year? If he's that dang good, he should be an auto. starter WHEREVER he goes. Deuce is good, but has he ever been called the wonderful things RB has? Just wonderin...I'm gonna go rant on another thread now.

Eagles78
07-10-2006, 10:08 AM
Mario keeps getting compared to Peppers, but he is really more like Reggie White. He will never get the hype White had because he isn't as vocal. I expect his sack numbers will be a little disappointing to some becuase he won't be asked to pin his ears back on every play like Dwight Freeney, but he will be in the top 5 in the league in sacks for about a decade.

Bush will sell more gear, but he's a shooting star. Give me Mario.
There will never be another Reggie White. And you guys cant be serious. A defensive end over a running back? Ive never seen a defensive lineman carry a team like a running back

Porky
07-10-2006, 10:10 AM
If the Saints use him properly, then Bush will have a bigger impact. I suspect they won't, and/or he will hold out, and for that reason, I will choose Mario. It's too bad he wasn't drafted by a real NFL team that actually needs a RB/WR combo and knows how to use him, as his talent may be wasted on the Aints.

real
07-10-2006, 10:17 AM
Ive never seen a defensive lineman carry a team like a running back

Reggie White wasn't more of an impact to the packers than their running back at the time of their superbowls...???

santo
07-10-2006, 10:20 AM
There will never be another Reggie White. And you guys cant be serious. A defensive end over a running back? Ive never seen a defensive lineman carry a team like a running back



Yeah, I can remember all the Superbowls Barry Sanders won for the Lions.:sarcasm:

Texans86
07-10-2006, 10:45 AM
There will never be another Reggie White. And you guys cant be serious. A defensive end over a running back? Ive never seen a defensive lineman carry a team like a running back

I remember watching an old NFL films program on Reggie White a few weeks ago. Basically, no one wanted to play in Green Bay until he showed up. He took that team from bad to Superbowl. I do find it ironic though that you mention how great Reggie White was, yet wonder how a DE can make more of an impact than a RB.

Sportsfan
07-10-2006, 10:57 AM
I need to wait to see both of them play in at least one game before i make an assumption. Otherwise, i'd just be guessing.

Exactly.

D-Vizzl
07-10-2006, 10:58 AM
At the end of the year the stats could be mis-leading, it may go like this

Mario Williams-38 tackles, 7 sacks, 16 assists, 2FF
Reggie Bush-152 carries 716 yards 23 rec. 245 yards
it may look like Reggie had the greater year, but depending on where the Texans d ranks depends on everything
But an offensive player will almost always have a bigger impact than a defensive player.

AFD1717
07-10-2006, 10:58 AM
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the man who would be our saviour is going to be playing 2nd fiddle on a team that was just as bad last year? If he's that dang good, he should be an auto. starter WHEREVER he goes. Deuce is good, but has he ever been called the wonderful things RB has? Just wonderin...I'm gonna go rant on another thread now.
Good point. All we heard prior to the draft was that when a player like Bush comes available, you take him regardless of need. It will be interesting to see how he pans out for the Saints since they didn't need a RB either.

wrestler4life
07-10-2006, 11:00 AM
I remember watching an old NFL films program on Reggie White a few weeks ago. Basically, no one wanted to play in Green Bay until he showed up. He took that team from bad to Superbowl. I do find it ironic though that you mention how great Reggie White was, yet wonder how a DE can make more of an impact than a RB.
He is an Eagles fan. What the hell does he know?!:chicken:

AFD1717
07-10-2006, 11:04 AM
He is an Eagles fan. What the hell does he know?!:chicken:
I bet he knows how to throw batteries.

infantrycak
07-10-2006, 11:07 AM
There will never be another Reggie White. And you guys cant be serious. A defensive end over a running back? Ive never seen a defensive lineman carry a team like a running back

I guess you need to send some postcards to all 32 teams about the value of RB's compared to DLmen since DT's get paid only slightly less than RB's (about $350K) and DE's get paid about 36% more or $2.3 mil per year based on the franchise tag numbers.

DocBar
07-10-2006, 11:09 AM
At the end of the year the stats could be mis-leading, it may go like this

Mario Williams-38 tackles, 7 sacks, 16 assists, 2FF
Reggie Bush-152 carries 716 yards 23 rec. 245 yards
it may look like Reggie had the greater year, but depending on where the Texans d ranks depends on everything
But an offensive player will almost always have a bigger impact than a defensive player.
Then why does the saying go: DEFENSE wins championships? I think a more succint way to phrase that would be that an offensive ball handler produces stats at a higher rate than any one defender. I completely agree with the 1st part of the post, though.

D-Vizzl
07-10-2006, 11:19 AM
[/U][/B]
Then why does the saying go: DEFENSE wins championships? I think a more succint way to phrase that would be that an offensive ball handler produces stats at a higher rate than any one defender. I completely agree with the 1st part of the post, though.

I feel what you're saying but Mario Williams couldn't be on the field or do enough to directly himself impact a championship. Basically most who watch a game won't remember the third down stop that Mario had to force a punt, but they will remember the 5 yard Td run of Bush with 2 min. left in the fourth. Also Bush's receiving skills give the Saints a better chance to stretch the field only making his stock rise that much more, and giving him more plays (chances) to make a bigger impact.

DocBar
07-10-2006, 11:28 AM
I feel what you're saying but Mario Williams couldn't be on the field or do enough to directly himself impact a championship. Basically most who watch a game won't remember the third down stop that Mario had to force a punt, but they will remember the 5 yard Td run of Bush with 2 min. left in the fourth. Also Bush's receiving skills give the Saints a better chance to stretch the field only making his stock rise that much more, and giving him more plays (chances) to make a bigger impact.
Who remembers what is hardly important. There is a slew of defensive plays and players who win games and even make the highlights on ESPN. Mario will get 50-60 plays a game(???) and how many will RB get platooning with Duece? And out of those plays, how many touches? I hate to say it, but a good slobberknockin by a full grown NFL player just might change ole RB's tune. He never got hit in college like he's gonna get hit in the bigs. He might go P-burnt on Brees and "ole" the handoff.

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 11:31 AM
What is this fascination with stats??? If Reggie Bush Gets One yard A game...But that one yard a game scores the game winning TD...Has he made no impact? He may take away from other players yardage, but that doesn't mean he hasn't made an impact....Thats ridiculous...I guess the same can be said about Mario then...If he doesn't add any more tackles or sacks than we had last year then he's made no impact...or if someone elses sack numbers go down, while his go up he hasn't added anything else we already didn't have....This double standard is crazy...Mario will make an impact that doesn't show up in stats..Double teams, taking up blockers..and Bush will make an impact in other ways as well....

NO one is going to Canton without stats to back up(justify) the trip......

live with it.

If we have less sacks as a team than we had last year, Mario made no impact....... especially if we are still ranked in the bottom quarter of NFL teams on defense....... against the run, against the pass, and total.

If Mario gets 5 sacks all year, and TJ gets 16, then Mario made no more impact than Gary Walker did...... how do we know TJ wouldn't have got that 16 if GW had been here?? Of course, you can also look at the situational stats, and compare how he did with, and without Mario in the game, beside him, or something.

To totally ignore the stats is goofy.......... if Reggie Bush has one touchdown all year, and the Saints average 5 a game, then having Reggie Bush doesn't mean squat........

With the team the Saints have, Brees is going to have to work at not getting 4000 yards...... but since Duece, Stallworth, and Joe Horn get big yards after the catch, he may only throw for 2900............ it'll just look like 4000, if you only look at the stats.

DocBar
07-10-2006, 11:40 AM
NO one is going to Canton without stats to back up(justify) the trip......

live with it.

If we have less sacks as a team than we had last year, Mario made no impact....... especially if we are still ranked in the bottom quarter of NFL teams on defense....... against the run, against the pass, and total.

If Mario gets 5 sacks all year, and TJ gets 16, then Mario made no more impact than Gary Walker did...... how do we know TJ wouldn't have got that 16 if GW had been here?? Of course, you can also look at the situational stats, and compare how he did with, and without Mario in the game, beside him, or something.

To totally ignore the stats is goofy.......... if Reggie Bush has one touchdown all year, and the Saints average 5 a game, then having Reggie Bush doesn't mean squat........
With the team the Saints have, Brees is going to have to work at not getting 4000 yards...... but since Duece, Stallworth, and Joe Horn get big yards after the catch, he may only throw for 2900............ it'll just look like 4000, if you only look at the stats.
Um... lot's of teams use bigger backs to score in goal line situations. If RB scores only one but averages over 100yds. per game did he still not do squat?
Also, the Texans struggled to get 16 sacks as a TEAM WITH GW. I know...whole different system and coaches...if the DL opposite of MW have great stats, did MW do squat or did he change the direction the offenses were running? Lots of ways to look at those scenarios, but good points.

D-Vizzl
07-10-2006, 11:49 AM
Who remembers what is hardly important. There is a slew of defensive plays and players who win games and even make the highlights on ESPN. Mario will get 50-60 plays a game(???) and how many will RB get platooning with Duece? And out of those plays, how many touches? I hate to say it, but a good slobberknockin by a full grown NFL player just might change ole RB's tune. He never got hit in college like he's gonna get hit in the bigs. He might go P-burnt on Brees and "ole" the handoff.

The people who will get on this and other sites and blast Williams if they only look at stats and not the game is very important. Those people will start to seep into the minds of others and "BOOM" David Carr. I agree with most things that you are saying but at the same time Mario Williams may go off in the first couple of weeks and then get keyed in on and not put up the stats, but help everyone elses stats go up--that's impact but unless you are an "in the trenches" type of football watcher it will fly over some heads. I look at a player like Julius Peppers who had a heck of a first year, but their D was ranked 23rd and they only won a few games-is that greater impact than Carr who led an expansion team to 4 wins and put up crappy stats-eye of the beholder.

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 11:50 AM
If the Saints use him properly, then Bush will have a bigger impact. I suspect they won't, and/or he will hold out, and for that reason, I will choose Mario. It's too bad he wasn't drafted by a real NFL team that actually needs a RB/WR combo and knows how to use him, as his talent may be wasted on the Aints.


They do have a new coach, and he doesn't owe McAllister anything. If it were me, and I wanted a scatback in my offense, then Reggie would be getting the "Starter" tag......... and I would be telling my GM to find a way to make the McAllister trade work...... since I've already got Reggie, and Bennette..... and McAllister is a bit injury prone.

Duece's Value may never be as high as it is right now....... trying to trade him after another injury with his contract may look even worse than it does now.

But you don't want to get rid of a back like Duece, till you know you've got a good replacement, or you have to.

whiskeyrbl
07-10-2006, 11:50 AM
I think Mario will have the better year even though it may look as if Bush does. Bush will probably have 2-3 great plays in every game,that will be shown over and over on ESPN so they can back their pre draft ramblings. However in Marios case I don't think he will have great plays every game,yet he will change the course of every game with his solid play. Whether it be a tackle for loss,QB hurries or sacks,or just shutting down the run. This in turn will improve the rest of the D's play making it a TEAM effort,therefore no individual recognition yet W's for the team.

D-Vizzl
07-10-2006, 11:51 AM
We all seem to feel the same things just different ways of putting it. I love my COUNTRY

real
07-10-2006, 11:57 AM
NO one is going to Canton without stats to back up(justify) the trip......

live with it.

If we have less sacks as a team than we had last year, Mario made no impact....... especially if we are still ranked in the bottom quarter of NFL teams on defense....... against the run, against the pass, and total.

If Mario gets 5 sacks all year, and TJ gets 16, then Mario made no more impact than Gary Walker did...... how do we know TJ wouldn't have got that 16 if GW had been here?? Of course, you can also look at the situational stats, and compare how he did with, and without Mario in the game, beside him, or something.

To totally ignore the stats is goofy.......... if Reggie Bush has one touchdown all year, and the Saints average 5 a game, then having Reggie Bush doesn't mean squat........

With the team the Saints have, Brees is going to have to work at not getting 4000 yards...... but since Duece, Stallworth, and Joe Horn get big yards after the catch, he may only throw for 2900............ it'll just look like 4000, if you only look at the stats.

What are you saying...Your argument can be used against every rookie or new player added to any team...Why add players then...Why not sign everyone to a lifetime contract....And who's talking about canton...Im talking about winning games, winning superbowls...and to accomplish that, stats are irrelevant...My point is that at the end of the year stats don't neccessarily tell the story of the season...i.e...Reggie gets ends the year with...20 rushing yards...and 7 touchdowns...If all of those TD's are game winners has he not made a difference....and if Mario ends up with 5 sacks and 12 tackles and those five sacks resulted in game stopping drives for the oposition, has he not made a difference ? I never said totally ignore stats, it just seems that that is your be all end all when it comes to judging which player will have the biggest impact..which is odd coming from a team that picked a DE with the 1st overall pick...Mario's biggest impact wont be from his stats IMO, just him being on the field will benifit everyone else around him which = IMPACT...

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 11:58 AM
Um... lot's of teams use bigger backs to score in goal line situations. If RB scores only one but averages over 100yds. per game did he still not do squat?


MAN LAW 152: AMENDMENT 7a
You can not use a stat to argue that stats are useless.........

DocBar
07-10-2006, 12:09 PM
MAN LAW 152: AMENDMENT 7a
You can not use a stat to argue that stats are useless.........
Are you saying I'm in touch with my feminine side? The stats and ME are against it, there scooter.
:pigfly:
EDIT: I MIGHT be. I'm trying to decide between ice cream and watermelon for dinner tonight. Heck, I might be pregnant!!!

real
07-10-2006, 12:16 PM
MAN LAW 152: AMENDMENT 7a
You can not use a stat to argue that stats are useless.........

Stats aren't useless...They serve a purpose...They just serve no purpose when analyzing a players talent or ability to positively impact a game...because even if (your scenario) brees threw for 4000 and bush rushed for 1200 but they only won 3 games...In which bush happened to not play in...what is his impact then ???? How can you look at stats on a piece of paper and tell me which player had the biggest impact/ no impact ?? What if a player has no tackles but blocked two extra points and his team wins by two??? Because he didn't fill up the stat column he didn't have an impact ?

DocBar
07-10-2006, 12:17 PM
Stats aren't useless...They serve a purpose...They just serve no purpose when analyzing a players talent or ability to positively impact a game...because even if (your scenario) brees threw for 4000 and bush rushed for 1200 but they only won 3 games...In which bush happened to not play in...what is his impact then ???? How can you look at stats on a piece of paper and tell me which player had the biggest impact/ no impact ?? What if a player has no tackles but blocked two extra points and his team wins by two??? Because he didn't fill up the stat column he didn't have an impact ?
Dude, you need to seriously think about your caffeine intake. :francis:

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 12:32 PM
What are you saying...Your argument can be used against every rookie or new player added to any team...Why add players then...Why not sign everyone to a lifetime contract....And who's talking about canton...Im talking about winning games, winning superbowls...and to accomplish that, stats are irrelevant...My point is that at the end of the year stats don't neccessarily tell the story of the season...i.e...Reggie gets ends the year with...20 rushing yards...and 7 touchdowns...If all of those TD's are game winners has he not made a difference....and if Mario ends up with 5 sacks and 12 tackles and those five sacks resulted in game stopping drives for the oposition, has he not made a difference ? I never said totally ignore stats, it just seems that that is your be all end all when it comes to judging which player will have the biggest impact..which is odd coming from a team that picked a DE with the 1st overall pick...Mario's biggest impact wont be from his stats IMO, just him being on the field will benifit everyone else around him which = IMPACT...

no....... not every player is going to be going to a team with an offense like the Saints, where everyone(hyperbole) puts up proBowl numbers every year.

& you can't sign everyone to lifetime contracts, especially if their stats don't back it up.

If Mario ends up with 5 sacks, and 12 tackles, I gaurantee, all the comparisons to Julius Peppers, and Reggie White will stop. Regardless of what impact he has on the team........ If Mario doesn't command a double team, then he'll have no more an impact that Gary Walker did in our 3-4.

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 12:39 PM
Stats aren't useless...They serve a purpose...They just serve no purpose when analyzing a players talent or ability to positively impact a game...because even if (your scenario) brees threw for 4000 and bush rushed for 1200 but they only won 3 games...In which bush happened to not play in...what is his impact then ???? How can you look at stats on a piece of paper and tell me which player had the biggest impact/ no impact ?? What if a player has no tackles but blocked two extra points and his team wins by two??? Because he didn't fill up the stat column he didn't have an impact ?


If the story at the end of the year is: Saints 6-0 when Reggie gets 15 or more touches, and 3-7 when he gets less than 15 touches....

That's a stat, that will show his impact.......

But lets forget all that............

Lets act like someone on a message board asked the question,"who would have the biggest impact for their team........ Mario, or Reggie", and I haven't responded yet.


How would you answer the question??

real
07-10-2006, 12:59 PM
Answer: I would ask for a clearer definition of impact...because there can be negative and positive impact....but assuming you meant a positive football related impact, Id have to say I think Mario....

Even though it is highly likely that i could be wrong...We won't know until we see them play...IMO, Bush isn't going to all of a sudden become sorry and unalbe to perform and put his stamp on a game...And Mario isn't all of a sudden going to become an all world, unstopable force...But i think they will both perform well...Who will warrant the tag of "mr. impact"....i don't know.....

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 01:22 PM
First you said Mario, then you said you don't know.

I'll rephrase the question. Who do you think will have more impact, Mario of Reggie??

(I know............ I didn't really re-phrase the question).

real
07-10-2006, 01:32 PM
First you said Mario, then you said you don't know.

I'll rephrase the question. Who do you think will have more impact, Mario of Reggie??

(I know............ I didn't really re-phrase the question).

No I said I think it will be Mario...Think as in a guess... do I KNOW who it will be??? no...Im not a psychic...or psycho for that matter...(not calling youu a psycho)

goodnews boy
07-10-2006, 01:51 PM
Initially Mario Williams will have a bigger impact because he will be the designated started, whereas Bush will be a 3rd down type back and special teams player. It may turn out that McAllister will not be the same with his injury or may get hurt again, but Bush is clearly playing 2nd fiddle going into camp. In a couple of years however, Bush may be the only starter and should have a bigger impact considering he would touch the ball more and directly score points.

Bush will not be able to carry the load of an every down back.:crutch:

powerfuldragon
07-10-2006, 01:53 PM
Bush will not be able to carry the load of an every down back.:crutch:
That's never been said before.

CloakNNNdagger
07-10-2006, 02:13 PM
Bush will not be able to carry the load of an every down back.:crutch:

If you watched USC, it was L. White who was used routinely to run between the tackles, thus setting up the passing game and Bush running outside the tackles. If Bush is "forced" to run between the tackles, independent of whether he splits carries or not, you wonder about him confronting the much faster NFL game with much stronger opposing players.........and how his body will take it......and for how long.........my vote is for Mario in the short AND the long term.

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 02:20 PM
No I said I think it will be Mario...Think as in a guess... do I KNOW who it will be??? no...Im not a psychic...or psycho for that matter...(not calling youu a psycho)


okay, so why do you think it will be Mario, and not Reggie??

TwinSisters
07-10-2006, 02:29 PM
If you watched USC, it was L. White who was used routinely to run between the tackles, thus setting up the passing game and Bush running outside the tackles. If Bush is "forced" to run between the tackles, independent of whether he splits carries or not, you wonder about him confronting the much faster NFL game with much stronger opposing players.........and how his body will take it......and for how long.........my vote is for Mario in the short AND the long term.

I don't think he will ever have to run between the tackles that much. From a Pro Set I don't think Linebackers are going to be able to catch him or contain him, so the defense will have to devote a DB back to him... shorting coverage and possibly stretching the line out a little for some other RB to run between the tackles.

Even in an singleback configuration 4WR running downfield in GO with Reggie moving out for the dump is a defensive killer.

Check out Mike Minter on NFL.com right now, talking about NFC South QBs. Watch Drew Brees work the HB dump with Tomlinson. Bush could be pretty effective right there because a defense will be tempted to burn a coverage man on him alone.

EDIT:

I just watched the Minter on McAllister clip... Minter hails him as a Power back inbetween the tackles kinda guy. So Bush will most likely not need to run between the tackles all that often and will avoid what looks to be the weakest part of his game.

goodnews boy
07-10-2006, 02:54 PM
Who remembers what is hardly important. There is a slew of defensive plays and players who win games and even make the highlights on ESPN. Mario will get 50-60 plays a game(???) and how many will RB get platooning with Duece? And out of those plays, how many touches? I hate to say it, but a good slobberknockin by a full grown NFL player just might change ole RB's tune. He never got hit in college like he's gonna get hit in the bigs. He might go P-burnt on Brees and "ole" the handoff.

What is a slobberknockin anyways?:redtowel:

South Texan
07-10-2006, 02:56 PM
We have a good back in Davis, and what looks like some talent backing him up.

Kubiack's system doesn't need a "shake and bake" back, we need guys that can make a cut and run like hell downfield.

Last year, our defense was not even close to getting the job done (At times they did a good job in the Red Zone, but I sure don't remember very many 3 and outs).

If Mario lives up to even half the expectations just forcing the opponents to have to account for him will make a huge improvement on the defense overall. Add in D. Ryans and a few others we are well on the way to having a very legitimate defense with probably our biggest question being depth at d-Backs.

The O-line solution worked itself out (hopefully) in later rounds of the draft, looks like we may of picked up some real talent there too that will fit our new system.

After seeing Reggie on Connan O'Brien just before the draft, I think he may not have had the right attitude for us. (Paraphrasing: He expected to be joining a bunch of losers and was going to have to get used to it.) Mario, on the other hand, seems like he has a burning desire to prove himself from day 1.

So basically, I think Mario fits a much bigger need for our team than a running back, even one with Reggie's talent.


And BTW, since we didn't get Bush, I am sincerely glad N.O. did, God knows after Katrina, they need something to be able to cheer about.

CloakNNNdagger
07-10-2006, 03:16 PM
I don't think he will ever have to run between the tackles that much. From a Pro Set I don't think Linebackers are going to be able to catch him or contain him, so the defense will have to devote a DB back to him... shorting coverage and possibly stretching the line out a little for some other RB to run between the tackles.

Even in an singleback configuration 4WR running downfield in GO with Reggie moving out for the dump is a defensive killer.

Check out Mike Minter on NFL.com right now, talking about NFC South QBs. Watch Drew Brees work the HB dump with Tomlinson. Bush could be pretty effective right there because a defense will be tempted to burn a coverage man on him alone.

EDIT:

I just watched the Minter on McAllister clip... Minter hails him as a Power back inbetween the tackles kinda guy. So Bush will most likely not need to run between the tackles all that often and will avoid what looks to be the weakest part of his game.


I agree with your assesment except for one major point. Bush was always blessed by a strong supporting cast, not the least being his OL. The Saints' OL as it now stands is to say the least not stellar. If their OL cannot control the LOS, all bets are off as far as the argument that LB's et al. will not be able to force him between the tackles or contain him in coverage.

TwinSisters
07-10-2006, 04:09 PM
I agree with your assesment except for one major point. Bush was always blessed by a strong supporting cast, not the least being his OL. The Saints' OL as it now stands is to say the least not stellar. If their OL cannot control the LOS, all bets are off as far as the argument that LB's et al. will not be able to force him between the tackles or contain him in coverage.

Good point... I think. I have no idea how crappy their line is! Never even bothered to look at them much last year. USC have seen a enough of though to be able to call it vastly over rated. Bush was a cut above the college talent and forced defensive lines ( and backfields ) to play with more passive angles of pursuit ( to avoid getting burned... and they still got burned ). This made the line look better compared to other lines with mortal running backs.

Side note: Not that this has anything to do with Mario Williams. This question is a poor attempt to hawk Bush, so that the Saints have something to talk about besides Vick, Smith, and Gruden.

South Texan
07-10-2006, 04:29 PM
How has this thread gone 4 pages without mentioning David Carr??

WHOOPS :hides:

CloakNNNdagger
07-10-2006, 05:13 PM
Another point to ponder in the Bush "supporting cast" category. Leinart's arm was a threat that could spread the D well. Brees has had 3 of 4 of his years in the questionable performance category. If Brees' throwing shoulder is compromised (labrum tear surgery) at least this year or is reinjured, which would not be surprising, then most of the D will be able to focus on Bush. Time will tell, but the Saints and NFL will not be as "kind" to him as was his college experience.

Wolf
07-10-2006, 06:20 PM
I think for the Texans

Mario was the way to go.


For the Saints. I don't thing Bush was the way to go unless McAllister's stays injured and Bennett isn't up to bar (I thought those two looked pretty good ,atleast on paper) .. with Horn and crew at WR.. I thought the Saints were set at skills postion .. Linemen or LB or something else would be the way to go..

YET, no one wanted to trade up to get Bush


Mario versus Bush..hard to figure who will have the impact until the season starts and even that is going to be difficult. why? we will notice when Bush gets the ball, but only way you notice Mario is if he gets a sack.. Behind the scenes, one would have to look at tape and study it IMO. did Mario draw a double team to help Payne or TJ get free? If Mario is consistantly drawing double teams that would be awesome, with weaver,smith, Payne in there, that means DeMeco Ryans is roaming free :hunter:


as far as who is going to help who the most? Williams for the Texans, we needed talent in an area that didn't have it(dl), the Saints have the talent in the area(RB) and just added more, which there won't be enough footballs to go around (which isn't a bad thing for Saint fans)

Wolf
07-10-2006, 07:48 PM
http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9535037

gives some insights to how the saints will use bush. says alot like USC .a little here and a little there.

DominickDavisFan76
07-10-2006, 09:07 PM
Mario Williams didnt carry NCSU very far because they werent that good...Reggie Bush on the other hand led his team to a championship game (which they lost) but won the year before, and the year before that.

Last time I checked a RB will always carry a team farther then a DE would.

The Pencil Neck
07-10-2006, 09:38 PM
Last time I checked a RB will always carry a team farther then a DE would.

Don't know that I agree with that. In the history of the NFL, very few of the league's leading rushers have won a title the year that they led the league in rushing. IIRC, Emmitt Smith was the first to ever do that. Ever.

I think you need a solid running game but you don't need a great running game or a great running back Most "great" running backs didn't win a championship until they were on the down-side of their careers.

And Bush didn't carry USC to championships. He was just one of several weapons.

phan1
07-10-2006, 09:43 PM
I think it all comes down to team needs. Do the Saints REALLY need a runningback? I don't think they do. Now do the Texans REALLY need Mario? F-Yeah! We were last in rushing defense, and we've been looking for good pass rushers since year 1. Once Kubiak took over the reigns, I was like "I think he can put this offense together but our D still sucks big time." Having Mario has really drastically improved our front 7 IMO. We really have a front 7 that can be one of the league's best.

The only way I see Bush contributing over Mario is is the Saints really understand how to utilize him and take some serious pressure off of Joe Horn. If he's a constant threat in the passing game, he can really be a game changer. We know what Mario is going to come in and do. For Reggie, it's all about the coaches finding ways to make him the most dangerous man on the field. Coaching and the "system" plays a big part in Bush's success IMO. But Mario would be the safe bet.

After saying this, it seems like it really goes against the "draft best player available" rule. Williams is a big "need" pick for us, and I'm hoping it all works well for us obviously. But he fills in a need at at what has become a very marquee position in the NFL, while running backs are continually getting devalued. Colts chose Freeny over James. Actually, I can't think of ANY team except for San Diego that would give up a premier DE for a premier RB!

DocBar
07-10-2006, 09:57 PM
What is a slobberknockin anyways?:redtowel:
It's like in the cartoons when you get hit and see stars and little birdies circling your head, only worse. That's about as descriptive of that term as I feel safe with on here. Little football players read these things, too.

DocBar
07-10-2006, 10:00 PM
I just remembered who Bush reminds me of. Remember a little guy who ran around like a waterbug named Eric Metcalf, with the Cleveland Browns. They did everything they could to get him the ball.

DocBar
07-10-2006, 10:06 PM
Another point to ponder in the Bush "supporting cast" category. Leinart's arm was a threat that could spread the D well. Brees has had 3 of 4 of his years in the questionable performance category. If Brees' throwing shoulder is compromised (labrum tear surgery) at least this year or is reinjured, which would not be surprising, then most of the D will be able to focus on Bush. Time will tell, but the Saints and NFL will not be as "kind" to him as was his college experience.
Look at this from another angle: OPPONENTS supporting casts. IMO, the biggest surprise to RB will be the overall atheleticism of NFL D's. How many times has he had to play against top-notch defenses where a LB or DE could track him down from behind when he makes a cut. I wonder how many opportunities he'll have to make play in space like he did in College.

CloakNNNdagger
07-11-2006, 06:55 AM
Look at this from another angle: OPPONENTS supporting casts. IMO, the biggest surprise to RB will be the overall atheleticism of NFL D's. How many times has he had to play against top-notch defenses where a LB or DE could track him down from behind when he makes a cut. I wonder how many opportunities he'll have to make play in space like he did in College.

.......almost like the CFL where a RB can really put up big numbers in the wider more open field dimensions. Then they come to the NFL and get stuffed into a smaller field with quicker stronger D's.......and they can't do squat. Bush will be playing in the same field dimensions, but with the new caliber of players he's going to be going up against, he will be made to feel like he's playing in a confined 4 x 4 sandbox.........essentially a "you can run, but you can't hide" situation.

thunderkyss
07-11-2006, 07:16 AM
Mario Williams didnt carry NCSU very far because they werent that good...Reggie Bush on the other hand led his team to a championship game (which they lost) but won the year before, and the year before that.

Last time I checked a RB will always carry a team farther then a DE would.

4th, and less than one...... two times, in the same game.... the most important game of the year...... the reason you play college football..... & their leader was on the sideline both times..... how odd.......

:sarcasm:

What I want to know.... why did Matt Lienart play his senior year?? That's what baffles me...... I don't remember the details, but.... I do recall the coaches expressing the desire to have Lienart return for his senior year, so they would have a chance to win another title.

Reggie was announcing his candidacy for the NFL draft at the end of his Senior year, and Pete Caroll was like, "I wish him all the luck"

DocBar
07-11-2006, 07:17 AM
.......almost like the CFL where a RB can really put up big numbers in the wider more open field dimensions. Then they come to the NFL and get stuffed into a smaller field with quicker stronger D's.......and they can't do squat. Bush will be playing in the same field dimensions, but with the new caliber of players he's going to be going up against, he will be made to feel like he's playing in a confined 4 x 4 sandbox.........essentially a "you can run, but you can't hide" situation.
I agree completely. Speaking of big numbers in the CFL...Ricky Williams got 6 in his last game. Just saw that headline. No further details.Serves the dope(r) right. And BOY does that sand get6 deep when you have 2,000lbs. of mad defense on your tail. Something about slobberknockin comes to mind.

bigbrewster2000
07-11-2006, 07:59 AM
Don't know that I agree with that. In the history of the NFL, very few of the league's leading rushers have won a title the year that they led the league in rushing. IIRC, Emmitt Smith was the first to ever do that. Ever.

I think you need a solid running game but you don't need a great running game or a great running back Most "great" running backs didn't win a championship until they were on the down-side of their careers.

And Bush didn't carry USC to championships. He was just one of several weapons.
To add a little bit to that, that is why RB's get paid less than DE's, they are easier to find and an elite DE will always appear to control a game better than an elite RB IMO

CloakNNNdagger
07-11-2006, 09:01 AM
To add a little bit to that, that is why RB's get paid less than DE's, they are easier to find and an elite DE will always appear to control a game better than an elite RB IMO

******************

But Bush and his agent are baskinging in their own "self" generated and press mediated and heretofore unproven and likely inflated value................thus, just expect a nice holdout With that said, a no-brainer tells me that a Mario on the field from day one is as "priceless" as a no Bush on the field is "worthless." :tease:

DocBar
07-11-2006, 09:28 AM
******************

But Bush and his agent are baskinging in their own "self" generated and press mediated and heretofore unproven and likely inflated value................thus, just expect a nice holdout With that said, a no-brainer tells me that a Mario on the field from day one is as "priceless" as a no Bush on the field is "worthless." :tease:
That was harsh. Apt, but harsh.

Texans_Chick
07-11-2006, 09:45 AM
I find this a silly question. Here's some more.....

Chocolate cake or croissant chocolate bread pudding

Angelina Jolie or Jessica Alba

Shiner Bock or St. Arnold's Amber

Finding 5 $20 bills or 1 $100 bill

A lot of times, answers to questions are just a matter of personal preference between two compelling choices. My second comparison does nothing for me, but for some of you, either one would be just fine.

The Texans needed a pass rushing DE in a 4-3 more than it needed a jitterbug running back when they are going to a system running game. Who will have more of an impact for their respective teams is kind of a silly question. It is quite possible they will both excel in their respective roles.

powerfuldragon
07-11-2006, 10:07 AM
Chocolate Cake, Jessica Alba, Arnold's, and 5 $20's.

DocBar
07-11-2006, 10:09 AM
Chocolate Cake, Jessica Alba, Arnold's, and 5 $20's.
I KNEW someone was gonna do it!!!! OK...If I gave up the rest of it, could I have Alba AND Jollie???

Texans86
07-11-2006, 10:13 AM
I KNEW someone was gonna do it!!!! OK...If I gave up the rest of it, could I have Alba AND Jollie???

There's no reason to be greedy. Share the wealth, and eat some cake.

DocBar
07-11-2006, 10:39 AM
There's no reason to be greedy. Share the wealth, and eat some cake.
Keep the money, eat the cake yourself....I get the babes!!! Texans Chick HAD to know she was starting something sophomoric when she added that.

thunderkyss
07-11-2006, 11:02 AM
I find this a silly question. Here's some more.....

Angelina Jolie or Jessica Alba


no in all fairness, that's a very good question.......

I'd bet we can have a thread discussing this one question that will rival all Carr threads put together......


but that's what men do.

tulexan
07-11-2006, 12:17 PM
Reggie needs to sign before his impact can be discussed.

Koolbrz
07-11-2006, 12:31 PM
I still wonder about RB's ability to carry the load. He's never done that before. Also, why would you want to pay #2 overall $$ to a part-time back? Will he be a wideout also? I haven't been able to find out much about him because the sAints shut down their fan message boards because of, well, the fans inability to act in accordance with the norms of society. ANYWAY, how's he looking? Is he splitting time between RB and any other positions?


From what i hear, the saints will be using Bush, the same way he was used at USC. IMHO Bush will be the rookie of the yr. Oh well, what can we say...powers that be for some reason thought that MW would be a better fit...we will just have to see!!!!

Hardcore Texan
07-11-2006, 12:31 PM
I find this a silly question. Here's some more.....

Chocolate cake or croissant chocolate bread pudding

Angelina Jolie or Jessica Alba

Shiner Bock or St. Arnold's Amber

Finding 5 $20 bills or 1 $100 bill

A lot of times, answers to questions are just a matter of personal preference between two compelling choices. My second comparison does nothing for me, but for some of you, either one would be just fine.

The Texans needed a pass rushing DE in a 4-3 more than it needed a jitterbug running back when they are going to a system running game. Who will have more of an impact for their respective teams is kind of a silly question. It is quite possible they will both excel in their respective roles.


uh......Jessica Alba and the rest don't matter :)

DocBar
07-11-2006, 12:41 PM
From what i hear, the saints will be using Bush, the same way he was used at USC. IMHO Bush will be the rookie of the yr. Oh well, what can we say...powers that be for some reason thought that MW would be a better fit...we will just have to see!!!!
Looking at their schedule from NFL.com, it's hard to say. They play some tough D's and some weak D's. Too bad they can't play USC's conference, eh?
9/10 at Cleveland 12:00 PM CT
09/17 at Green Bay 12:00 PM CT
09/25 Atlanta 7:30 PM CT
10/01 at Carolina 12:00 PM CT
10/08 Tampa Bay 12:00 PM CT
10/15 Philadelphia 12:00 PM CT
BYE
10/29 Baltimore 12:00 PM CT
11/05 at Tampa Bay 12:00 PM CT
11/12 at Pittsburgh 12:00 PM CT
11/19 Cincinnati 12:00 PM CT
11/26 at Atlanta 12:00 PM CT
12/03 San Francisco 12:00 PM CT
12/10 at Dallas 12:00 PM CT
12/17 Washington 12:00 PM CT
12/24 at N.Y. Giants 12:00 PM CT
12/31 Carolina 12:00 PM

TK_Gamer
07-11-2006, 01:13 PM
dammmmm, I wish we had that schedule,lol

real
07-11-2006, 01:27 PM
dammmmm, I wish we had that schedule,lol

Why ?

powerfuldragon
07-11-2006, 02:43 PM
To, TexansChick:
I apologize for my previous comment, but you must understand that i had to. I Had To. I'm 20 and male, and according to science and the wisdom of elders, the combination of the two makes me an immature twit.

DocBar
07-11-2006, 02:44 PM
To, TexansChick:
I apologize for my previous comment, but you must understand that i had to. I Had To. I'm 20 and male, and according to science and the wisdom of elders, the combination of the two makes me an immature twit.
Well said.

Texans_Chick
07-11-2006, 03:51 PM
To, TexansChick:
I apologize for my previous comment, but you must understand that i had to. I Had To. I'm 20 and male, and according to science and the wisdom of elders, the combination of the two makes me an immature twit.

No need to apologize. It is an appropriate smartazz response to my smartazz way of saying that asking who is going to have a bigger impact for their team is not a question that really matters when the choices are between two favorable choices that have their own appeal.

I'm a St. Arnold's fan myself. I like supporting a local company and they run a nice tailgate which gives them extra ups in my book.