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View Full Version : When the going gets tough: Put in Sage, Pull Carr


TwinSisters
07-06-2006, 09:56 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/06/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/3978/

Nothing really all that telling here, but an interesting article nonetheless.

Full Results

162 quarterbacks have had at least one fourth-quarter comeback opportunity since 1996. There are 24 instances in which two quarterbacks saw action in a failed comeback game, usually due to injury or ineffectiveness of the primary quarterback.

Based on t-tests, 21 quarterbacks have been significantly “good” at fourth-quarter comebacks since 1996 and 18 quarterbacks have been significantly “not good” by the same test (all at the .95 level). The top 10 and bottom 10 are listed above in Table 1 and Table 2. Here are the others:

Significantly good: Aaron Brooks, Tim Couch, Trent Green, Kent Graham, Steve Young, Ben Roethlisberger, John Elway, Kordell Stewart, Daunte Culpepper, Elvis Grbac, Rich Gannon.

Significantly bad: Neil O’Donnell, Doug Flutie, Frank Reich (yes, the same Frank Reich who led the greatest postseason comeback in NFL history in 1992, prior to this study), Gus Frerotte, David Carr, Jim Harbaugh, Matt Hasselbeck, Billy Joe Tolliver.

Billy Joe Tolliver is ranked with Carr... I think I am going to start the Lord's Prayer right now.

Wolf
07-06-2006, 10:00 PM
:hides:

I guess I can play spin doctor.. I have also seen our defense NOT step up and make the key stop in the forth quarter to give us a chance

we have seen where we need a key 3rd down pickup in the 4th to keep the clock running and sadly we didn't

aj.
07-06-2006, 10:13 PM
...and Kent Graham is ranked with John Elway. Like this is something to take seriously? Good gawd.

infantrycak
07-06-2006, 10:17 PM
This is one of those times when you have a theory, apply it, look at the results and say bad Mr. Theory and smack it on the head. Useless results both ends.

Kaiser Toro
07-06-2006, 10:26 PM
It is to bad that Palmer's magic did not rub off on Carr like it did on Couch.:mario:

Lucky
07-06-2006, 10:35 PM
Significantly bad: Neil O’Donnell, Doug Flutie, Frank Reich (yes, the same Frank Reich who led the greatest postseason comeback in NFL history in 1992, prior to this study), Gus Frerotte, David Carr, Jim Harbaugh, Matt Hasselbeck, Billy Joe Tolliver.
Jim "Captain Comeback" Harbaugh made this list?

Kaiser Toro
07-06-2006, 10:45 PM
Jim "Captain Comeback" Harbaugh made this list?

Man did he have a great year with the Colts in 1995.

thunderkyss
07-06-2006, 11:33 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/06/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/3978/

Nothing really all that telling here, but an interesting article nonetheless.



Billy Joe Tolliver is ranked with Carr... I think I am going to start the Lord's Prayer right now.


Wow....... Aaron Brooks, Tim Couch, and Kordell Stewart rated in the top ten....

yet none of them are gauranteed starters..... heck, two of the three will definitely not start.

In all fairness to Carr...... as many comeback situations he's been in is probalby diluting his stats.

edo783
07-06-2006, 11:44 PM
Soooo, I guess this is another of those Carr threads that are constantly started by all the Carr lovers as KT keeps saying is what happens all the time. Couldn't POSSIBLY be a "Let's start one to be able to take a shot at Carr thread". Nah, no one starts those, just always those pesky Carr lovers gushing about that piece of road apples QB, and a certain band of folks has to maintain world balance by responding. Yup, guess that's what is happening.

AFD1717
07-06-2006, 11:45 PM
This guy should run for office.

infantrycak
07-06-2006, 11:53 PM
Wow....... Aaron Brooks, Tim Couch, and Kordell Stewart rated in the top ten....

yet none of them are gauranteed starters..... heck, two of the three will definitely not start.

In all fairness to Carr...... as many comeback situations he's been in is probalby diluting his stats.

Folks who rely on Brooks, Couch and Stewart as examples should "probalby" not throw stones or the only "gauranteed" result will be their glass house falling.

hollywood_texan
07-07-2006, 03:01 AM
There is no way Sage will replace Carr except for injury.

I have looked through this guy's career, and Carr is a better QB.

TK_Gamer
07-07-2006, 04:56 AM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/06/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/3978/

Nothing really all that telling here, but an interesting article nonetheless.



Billy Joe Tolliver is ranked with Carr... I think I am going to start the Lord's Prayer right now.

You must have taken carr in fantasy football and lost a bet , is that it?, or you just have nothing better to do? just curious..........

DocBar
07-07-2006, 06:34 AM
DANG!!! That was even more inane than most of my posts. I'm jealous.

thunderkyss
07-07-2006, 08:37 AM
Folks who rely on Brooks, Couch and Stewart as examples should "probalby" not throw stones or the only "gauranteed" result will be their glass house falling.


The Texans are in the same boat....... except those guys have at least one winning season under their belts...

Runner
07-07-2006, 09:18 AM
And I didn't think there would be any more new and interesting topics until the depth chart was released prior to camp.

DocBar
07-07-2006, 09:33 AM
And I didn't think there would be any more new and interesting topics until the depth chart was released prior to camp.
And you were....ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!! LOL

Texans Horror
07-07-2006, 09:53 AM
Are we surprised that Brett Favre is not in the top 10?

the wonger need food
07-07-2006, 09:56 AM
Hopefully this coaching staff will have the good sense to pull Carr when he's playing poorly or they are way behind. I never understood why Capers refused to bench the guy.

DocBar
07-07-2006, 09:59 AM
Hopefully this coaching staff will have the good sense to pull Carr when he's playing poorly or they are way behind. I never understood why Capers refused to bench the guy.
I agree. A benching couldn't have been worse than all the pounding he was taking.

jerek
07-07-2006, 10:01 AM
Hopefully this coaching staff will have the good sense to pull Carr when he's playing poorly or they are way behind. I never understood why Capers refused to bench the guy.

Because Banks and Ragone were that much worse.

I agree that Carr might have been pulled a time or two, if only to preserve him when the game was out of reach, but in general I think they were trying to build some sort of momentum and/or continuity last year, and felt DC should get all the reps he could. That, and Banks and Ragone really were that much worse.

HOU-TEX
07-07-2006, 10:06 AM
Because Banks and Ragone were that much worse.

I agree that Carr might have been pulled a time or two, if only to preserve him when the game was out of reach, but in general I think they were trying to build some sort of momentum and/or continuity last year, and felt DC should get all the reps he could. That, and Banks and Ragone really were that much worse.

HaHa, I was getting ready to mention that. In the past 4 years does anyone really beleive that the line/offense would've blocked better, run routes better, etc, etc. for any other QB? I think negative.:stirpot:

DocBar
07-07-2006, 10:07 AM
Because Banks and Ragone were that much worse.

I agree that Carr might have been pulled a time or two, if only to preserve him when the game was out of reach, but in general I think they were trying to build some sort of momentum and/or continuity last year, and felt DC should get all the reps he could. That, and Banks and Ragone really were that much worse.
After all of the revelations about the prvious regime, I find that argument hard to follow. Banks did ok when he was in and we never saw Rgone in the NFL did we? Ragone tore up the Europe league. I think they should have pulled him several time because the only continuity they preserved was pain, punishment and demoralization of Carr and the team in general. Hell, Bradshaw and Staubach were benched more than once in their careers.

the wonger need food
07-07-2006, 10:17 AM
Because Banks and Ragone were that much worse.

Well, I don't know about that. If you remember SF game... Banks came in the second half and had as good of a game statistically as Carr had put together all season. Carr was 4/11 with 23 yards in that game. The guy was one of the worst QB's in the NFL at the end of last season. I believe Banks would have gotten them at least 2 more wins.

Lucky
07-07-2006, 10:20 AM
I believe Banks would have gotten them at least 2 more wins.
And the NFL agrees with you as Tony signed a big free agent contract with...Nobody.

jerek
07-07-2006, 10:25 AM
After all of the revelations about the prvious regime, I find that argument hard to follow. Banks did ok when he was in and we never saw Rgone in the NFL did we? Ragone tore up the Europe league. I think they should have pulled him several time because the only continuity they preserved was pain, punishment and demoralization of Carr and the team in general. Hell, Bradshaw and Staubach were benched more than once in their careers.

NFL Europe league has almost zero to do with predicting success in the NFL. It's like saying we should put in Tommy Chang because he tore up the WAC. Banks didn't necessarily suffer from the "Carrisms" that many people on this MB associate with Carr (i.e. sacks, running out of bounds to avoid the hit, etc., things that IMO are blown way out of proportion) but I'd rather my QB run out of bounds than sling the ball to the D. After Carr went out against San Francisco Banks threw what -- two INTs? -- to one of the very worst defenses in the entire NFL.

Given that both were immediately cut by the new coaching and have since played musical teams, I think this lends some credibility to the notion that neither deserved to see our field last year. I have it on good authority that both were bums in practice last year and I'll stand on that.

DocBar
07-07-2006, 10:30 AM
NFL Europe league has almost zero to do with predicting success in the NFL. It's like saying we should put in Tommy Chang because he tore up the WAC. Banks didn't necessarily suffer from the "Carrisms" that many people on this MB associate with Carr (i.e. sacks, running out of bounds to avoid the hit, etc., things that IMO are blown way out of proportion) but I'd rather my QB run out of bounds than sling the ball to the D. After Carr went out against San Francisco Banks threw what -- two INTs? -- to one of the very worst defenses in the entire NFL.

Given that both were immediately cut by the new coaching and have since played musical teams, I think this lends some credibility to the notion that neither deserved to see our field last year. I have it on good authority that both were bums in practice last year and I'll stand on that.
By no means was I suggesting we put them in expecting a miraculous comeback. My point is that Carr has taken some needless pounding and, witha couple of excpetions, not prone to lighting up the scoreboard. Why not pull him and see what Ragone could do. Is he playing musical teams? I hadn't heard that. Anyway, not saing they were great or even particularly good. It's just bad to let your franchise QB get the snot beat out of him in a futile effort.

jerek
07-07-2006, 10:36 AM
By no means was I suggesting we put them in expecting a miraculous comeback. My point is that Carr has taken some needless pounding and, witha couple of excpetions, not prone to lighting up the scoreboard. Why not pull him and see what Ragone could do. Is he playing musical teams? I hadn't heard that. Anyway, not saing they were great or even particularly good. It's just bad to let your franchise QB get the snot beat out of him in a futile effort.

Banks has not been signed by any one.

Ragone was signed by Cincinatti I believe, and is now -- only a few months later -- with the Rams, currently fourth on their roster if I am not mistaken.

And like I say, I can agree with benching Carr to a point, but IMO it should have only been done when the game was clearly out of reach and more for purposes of resting him than "seeing what someone else can do" -- someone who hadn't practiced well and was not, by any expectation, going to do better.

People who have not been athletes at a high level rarely understand the role of good practice in receiving or earning playing time. Not to talk down to anyone here, but if a person hasn't played in at least college athletics, I don't expect them to understand that (and maybe you have, I was making the comment generally rather than pointed at any one person.)

infantrycak
07-07-2006, 10:42 AM
Banks came in the second half and had as good of a game statistically as Carr had put together all season.

So now 56 % comp., a .5 TD/INT ratio and 57.6 QB rating is just as good as 60%, 1.3 TD/INT ratio and 77.2 QB rating. :ok:

and obviously it would be silly to think 73.5 % comp. 3 TD/INT and a 116.4 QB rating was better.

DocBar
07-07-2006, 10:47 AM
Banks has not been signed by any one.

Ragone was signed by Cincinatti I believe, and is now -- only a few months later -- with the Rams, currently fourth on their roster if I am not mistaken.

And like I say, I can agree with benching Carr to a point, but IMO it should have only been done when the game was clearly out of reach and more for purposes of resting him than "seeing what someone else can do" -- someone who hadn't practiced well and was not, by any expectation, going to do better.

People who have not been athletes at a high level rarely understand the role of good practice in receiving or earning playing time. Not to talk down to anyone here, but if a person hasn't played in at least college athletics, I don't expect them to understand that (and maybe you have, I was making the comment generally rather than pointed at any one person.)
I played a different form of atheletics. I think we're on the same page, just disagree with the definition of the game being out of reach.

Kaiser Toro
07-07-2006, 10:51 AM
Soooo, I guess this is another of those Carr threads that are constantly started by all the Carr lovers as KT keeps saying is what happens all the time. Couldn't POSSIBLY be a "Let's start one to be able to take a shot at Carr thread". Nah, no one starts those, just always those pesky Carr lovers gushing about that piece of road apples QB, and a certain band of folks has to maintain world balance by responding. Yup, guess that's what is happening.

Simply do an advanced search and you will find that there have been hardly any Carr threads started as of late. They just have a long life. The problem is with non Carr threads that turn into Carr threads. Nah, that would be too much work to look into.

jerek
07-07-2006, 10:53 AM
So now 56 % comp., a .5 TD/INT ratio and 57.6 QB rating is just as good as 60%, 1.3 TD/INT ratio and 77.2 QB rating. :ok:

and obviously it would be silly to think 73.5 % comp. 3 TD/INT and a 116.4 QB rating was better.

Who has time for trivialities like stats when one needs to find another basis for disliking the guy other than family commitment and nice hair?

real
07-07-2006, 10:58 AM
Who has time for trivialities like stats when one needs to find another basis for disliking the guy other than family commitment and nice hair?

Thats my gripe with him...:mario:

The Dude Abides
07-07-2006, 11:13 AM
If Kordell Stewart is in the Top 10, you can go ahead and put my name up there as well.

real
07-07-2006, 11:18 AM
If Kordell Stewart is in the Top 10, you can go ahead and put my name up there as well.
:ohsnap: :rofl: lol:

HOU-TEX
07-07-2006, 11:23 AM
If Kordell Stewart is in the Top 10, you can go ahead and put my name up there as well.

:perfect10: LOL Outstanding!!

DocBar
07-07-2006, 11:32 AM
Who has time for trivialities like stats when one needs to find another basis for disliking the guy other than family commitment and nice hair?
According to the DD vs. AFC thread, stats are completely useless when judging talent. It all has to do with personal opinion.

HOU-TEX
07-07-2006, 11:38 AM
Who has time for trivialities like stats when one needs to find another basis for disliking the guy other than family commitment and nice hair?

When his hair was long and parted through the middle, I always thought it looked a little queerish.:tease:

MorKnolle
07-07-2006, 12:01 PM
Well, I don't know about that. If you remember SF game... Banks came in the second half and had as good of a game statistically as Carr had put together all season. Carr was 4/11 with 23 yards in that game. The guy was one of the worst QB's in the NFL at the end of last season. I believe Banks would have gotten them at least 2 more wins.

Are you kidding? He threw 2 INTs that cost us the game against by far the worst defense in the league.

TwinSisters
07-07-2006, 12:04 PM
Couch
TOTAL 62 59 1714 1025 59.8 11131 6.49 79 64 67 166/1119 129 28 75.1

Carr
TOTAL 60 59 1628 941 57.8 10624 6.53 81 48 53 208/1226 118 18 73.7

---

On Favre: the interesting thing is that Holmgren has blown a lot of late leads.

Plummer and Kitna never had really good teams with solid defenses behind them.

Testaverde never did either... so-so to good defenses in Tampa and New York.

Kerry Collins: wonder if he scored the majority of his comebacks in NY or Carolina? Because Capers ranks on the bottom for blown leads.

Daunte Culpepper : Terrible defenses. Offensive lines fluxed once on him. Was Mike Tice that much better of a coach then Dom Capers?Is Randy Moss that GOOD and that much better then Andre Johnson? Was Michael Bennett that much better then Davis?

real
07-07-2006, 12:14 PM
According to the DD vs. AFC thread, stats are completely useless when judging talent. It all has to do with personal opinion.

Exactly....Talent and productivity(Stats) have nothing to do with one another...IMO, Lavar Arrington is one of the top three talented LB's in the NFL...But he's not very productive....which means his stats aren't high...But that doesn't mean he isn't talented...There is no way you can look at a piece of paper with numbers and know who is the more talented player...You can make assumptions from those numbers, but you might see them play in person and change your mind on who is more talented...

DocBar
07-07-2006, 12:18 PM
Exactly....Talent and productivity(Stats) have nothing to do with one another...IMO, Lavar Arrington is one of the top three talented LB's in the NFL...But he's not very productive....which means his stats aren't high...But that doesn't mean he isn't talented...There is no way you can look at a piece of paper with numbers and know who is the more talented player...You can make assumptions from those numbers, but you might see them play in person and change your mind on who is more talented...
I am NOT having this discussion on 2 seperate threads!!! LMAO

Double Barrel
07-07-2006, 12:22 PM
And like I say, I can agree with benching Carr to a point, but IMO it should have only been done when the game was clearly out of reach and more for purposes of resting him than "seeing what someone else can do" -- someone who hadn't practiced well and was not, by any expectation, going to do better.

People who have not been athletes at a high level rarely understand the role of good practice in receiving or earning playing time. Not to talk down to anyone here, but if a person hasn't played in at least college athletics, I don't expect them to understand that (and maybe you have, I was making the comment generally rather than pointed at any one person.)

I don't know, man....over 200 sacks in only four seasons doesn't seem like it's building anything with DC other than being a shell-shocked QB. You don't have to have played the game to see basic logic at work here.

And are you really implying that women have no clue about professional football? Afterall, NONE of them have played collegiate level football (much less high school levels). Texans Chick might just have to pimp slap you for that take. ;)

Personally, I think Banks should have started at least the first two seasons, and not necessarily because of merit. Starting a rookie QB behind an untested o-line on a brand new team just seems to most folks the epitome of brainless coaching.

Carr had more potential as a rookie than he does now, simply because of the bad habits and tendencies he's developed in four years of garbage offenses. He now has to unlearn all of the crap fed to him for the past four years.

thunderkyss
07-07-2006, 12:26 PM
Because Banks and Ragone were that much worse.

I agree that Carr might have been pulled a time or two, if only to preserve him when the game was out of reach, but in general I think they were trying to build some sort of momentum and/or continuity last year, and felt DC should get all the reps he could. That, and Banks and Ragone really were that much worse.


I totally agree, but I would add..... after three games into the season, it should've been obvious to the coaching staff, that we had some protection issues......... I'd have pulled Carr, and thrown Banks/Ragone in there. Sure, we still managed to be competitive in many games last year, and would have lost that, but leaving Carr in to get sacked 68 times, is stupid, regardless whose fault it is. We're Damn lucky he didn't get hurt too badly.

MorKnolle
07-07-2006, 12:29 PM
I totally agree, but I would add..... after three games into the season, it should've been obvious to the coaching staff, that we had some protection issues......... I'd have pulled Carr, and thrown Banks/Ragone in there. Sure, we still managed to be competitive in many games last year, and would have lost that, but leaving Carr in to get sacked 68 times, is stupid, regardless whose fault it is. We're Damn lucky he didn't get hurt too badly.

Just because your line is giving up a lot of sacks isn't reason to bench your franchise QB for the rest of the season. I can see pulling him from games that are out of reach, but automatically pulling him from whole games just because your OLine isn't performing up to par is not very good team management.

real
07-07-2006, 12:30 PM
I am NOT having this discussion on 2 seperate threads!!! LMAO

LOL...:tease:

HOU-TEX
07-07-2006, 12:32 PM
I totally agree, but I would add..... after three games into the season, it should've been obvious to the coaching staff, that we had some protection issues......... I'd have pulled Carr, and thrown Banks/Ragone in there. Sure, we still managed to be competitive in many games last year, and would have lost that, but leaving Carr in to get sacked 68 times, is stupid, regardless whose fault it is. We're Damn lucky he didn't get hurt too badly.

Yea, no kidding. We should've used the back-ups like crash dummies and saved Carr. Towards the end of the season instead of taking the hit for the sack, he was doing the duck and roll (sack-shocked)

thunderkyss
07-07-2006, 12:40 PM
Personally, I think Banks should have started at least the first two seasons, and not necessarily because of merit. Starting a rookie QB behind an untested o-line on a brand new team just seems to most folks the epitome of brainless coaching.


Hindsight is always 20/20......... but looking back, it's still a bit fuzzy


but I totally agree... setting a sack record after the first year, should've told somebody something.

thunderkyss
07-07-2006, 12:44 PM
Just because your line is giving up a lot of sacks isn't reason to bench your franchise QB for the rest of the season. I can see pulling him from games that are out of reach, but automatically pulling him from whole games just because your OLine isn't performing up to par is not very good team management.


we're lucky he still has his legs, and no concussions.....

DocBar
07-07-2006, 12:47 PM
Yea, no kidding. We should've used the back-ups like crash dummies and saved Carr. Towards the end of the season instead of taking the hit for the sack, he was doing the duck and roll (sack-shocked)
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Looked like he was going thru jump-school....tuck and roll

MorKnolle
07-07-2006, 12:55 PM
we're lucky he still has his legs, and no concussions.....

Yes, that is a testament to Carr's toughness and resolve, but it still doesn't mean that we should have benched him for the final 13 games of the season just to sacrifice our other two QBs. You have to keep playing him in the belief that something will improve in there. If you concede the season and bench your franchise QB then you're sealing your pink slip at the end of the year, if you have any interest in winning as many games as possible and ultimately keeping your job then you put your best players and best team on the field, and David Carr was the best QB for us. Once the previous staff started realizing they were likely losing their job at the end of the year, what do they care about preserving Carr's future health for a new coaching staff and tanking games in the process vs. trying to get something positive out of the end of the season and help them find a job the next year?

the wonger need food
07-07-2006, 12:58 PM
Are you kidding? He threw 2 INTs that cost us the game against by far the worst defense in the league.

At least he threw for a TD and almost 200 yards.

Carr was 4/11 for 23 yards against the worst defense in the league.

Who had a better game?

chuckm
07-07-2006, 01:02 PM
we all remember that game ...... something about a Hanukkah party comes to mind .....

the wonger need food
07-07-2006, 01:09 PM
we all remember that game ...... something about a Hanukkah party comes to mind .....

Dang Chuckie, good memory. Maybe during this year's Hanukkah party we will be watching the Texans' first Hebrew player lead them to victory.

Seriously though, Carr was horrible at the end of last year (the JAX game excluded). Blame Capers or Pendry or McKenney or whoever you want, but the guy was simply pathetic.

HOU-TEX
07-07-2006, 02:41 PM
Dang Chuckie, good memory. Maybe during this year's Hanukkah party we will be watching the Texans' first Hebrew player lead them to victory.

Seriously though, Carr was horrible at the end of last year (the JAX game excluded). Blame Capers or Pendry or McKenney or whoever you want, but the guy was simply pathetic.

"Monkey see monkey do" is hopefully what happened.:rolleyes:

TwinSisters
07-07-2006, 02:46 PM
Seriously though, Carr was horrible at the end of last year (the JAX game excluded). Blame Capers or Pendry or McKenney or whoever you want, but the guy was simply pathetic.

Don't worry wonger, everything is going to be just fine.

The coaches went to camp with specific goals, and one was to take a close look at the progress quarterback David Carr has made in a system that has added shorter drops and quicker releases.

"I think David's ready to take his game to the next level," offensive coordinator Chris Palmer said. "He has a better command of the offense. He's got a sense of urgency. He expects to win."

The primary goal on offense is to keep Carr from becoming the most-sacked quarterback in the NFL for the third time in four years.

"Every day, you can see how much more comfortable and confident David is," Palmer said. "His teammates see it, too.

See?

We have changed the system. It's sorta like playing Russian roulette... there are only like 3 systems left that we haven't tried, so by the time I turn 80 BANG!!! Carr should have reached the next level.

Which is really good because then I get handicap parking and seating to see it.

Vambo, the Marble Eye
07-07-2006, 03:59 PM
Wow....... Aaron Brooks, Tim Couch, and Kordell Stewart rated in the top ten....

yet none of them are gauranteed starters..... heck, two of the three will definitely not start.

In all fairness to Carr...... as many comeback situations he's been in is probalby diluting his stats.

And the one that will start is Brooks and he is not known for smarts... raw talent and Joe Horn for the last 8 years.

TwinSisters
07-07-2006, 04:03 PM
And the one that will start is Brooks and he is not known for smarts... raw talent and Joe Horn for the last 8 years.

Brooks will have Moss though. So that might be considered an upgrade, since Moss supposedly saved Culpepper, Tice, Red, Whiz, and the rest of the Vikings from the #1 draft spot. ( and beat the Packers at Lambeau in the playoffs during the winter with a gimp leg.. along with having a bad hair day )

Double Barrel
07-07-2006, 05:21 PM
Hindsight is always 20/20......... but looking back, it's still a bit fuzzy


but I totally agree... setting a sack record after the first year, should've told somebody something.

yeah, hindsight can be 20/20...but I recall many folks questioning the decision to obtain a QB as our first overall pick of the draft. And I recall quite a few people questioning the decision to start him right off the bat, too.

There has always been an on-going debate regarding starting vs. benching rookie QB's. Only that particular debate is usually reserved for teams that have been established and have some history of running an offense.

It doesn't really take a football genius to figure out that an untested o-line that has never played together could be hazardous to the QB's health. Obviously, 200+ sacks later, there was wisdom in them thar hills.

DocBar
07-07-2006, 05:26 PM
yeah, hindsight can be 20/20...but I recall many folks questioning the decision to obtain a QB as our first overall pick of the draft. And I recall quite a few people questioning the decision to start him right off the bat, too.

There has always been an on-going debate regarding starting vs. benching rookie QB's. Only that particular debate is usually reserved for teams that have been established and have some history of running an offense.

It doesn't really take a football genius to figure out that an untested o-line that has never played together could be hazardous to the QB's health. Obviously, 200+ sacks later, there was wisdom in them thar hills.Outstanding post. If I could have said it better, I would have.

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 05:29 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/06/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/3978/

Nothing really all that telling here, but an interesting article nonetheless.



Billy Joe Tolliver is ranked with Carr... I think I am going to start the Lord's Prayer right now.

I read the names. Sometimes, stats can not only be manipulated, but they are completely worthless. Every great element of a story isn't written in the book.

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 05:31 PM
It is to bad that Palmer's magic did not rub off on Carr like it did on Couch.:mario:

....or too bad that Carr's magic didn't rub off on Palmer like Couch's did.

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 05:34 PM
Soooo, I guess this is another of those Carr threads that are constantly started by all the Carr lovers as KT keeps saying is what happens all the time. Couldn't POSSIBLY be a "Let's start one to be able to take a shot at Carr thread". Nah, no one starts those, just always those pesky Carr lovers gushing about that piece of road apples QB, and a certain band of folks has to maintain world balance by responding. Yup, guess that's what is happening.

TwinSisters posts some great stuff.....but I don't know if that counts as a "Carr lover." Have you checked previous posts to make this opinion?

DocBar
07-07-2006, 05:34 PM
I read the names. Sometimes, stats can not only be manipulated, but they are completely worthless. Every great element of a story isn't written in the book.
Stats can be like polls. A snapshot in time to be manipulted by whomever uses them.

Kaiser Toro
07-07-2006, 05:34 PM
....or too bad that Carr's magic didn't rub off on Palmer like Couch's did.

Or Bledsoe or Brunell.

DocBar
07-07-2006, 05:37 PM
Or Bledsoe or Brunell.
oooohhhhh!!!!!! That was a cheap shot.:francis:

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 05:37 PM
After all of the revelations about the prvious regime, I find that argument hard to follow. Banks did ok when he was in and we never saw Rgone in the NFL did we? Ragone tore up the Europe league. I think they should have pulled him several time because the only continuity they preserved was pain, punishment and demoralization of Carr and the team in general. Hell, Bradshaw and Staubach were benched more than once in their careers.

I can't imagine how people consider Banks to be an ok starter or backup. The guy sucks!

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 05:42 PM
Simply do an advanced search and you will find that there have been hardly any Carr threads started as of late. They just have a long life. The problem is with non Carr threads that turn into Carr threads. Nah, that would be too much work to look into.

Does get old doesn't it? LOL

DocBar
07-07-2006, 05:43 PM
I can't imagine how people consider Banks to be an ok starter or backup. The guy sucks!
LMAO, me either. All I was saying is that I would rather see those guys get pounded rather than Carr. I didn't say we would WIN those games, just save the wear and tear on a quality guy who now has a system he can sink or breaststroke like hell in.

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 05:47 PM
I totally agree, but I would add..... after three games into the season, it should've been obvious to the coaching staff, that we had some protection issues......... I'd have pulled Carr, and thrown Banks/Ragone in there. Sure, we still managed to be competitive in many games last year, and would have lost that, but leaving Carr in to get sacked 68 times, is stupid, regardless whose fault it is. We're Damn lucky he didn't get hurt too badly.

You're asking for a lot of common sense from the former staff. Isn't that setting expectations a bit too high?

DocBar
07-07-2006, 05:50 PM
You're asking for a lot of common sense from the former staff. Isn't that setting expectations a bit too high?
Failure, for them, was an opportunity to try the same old crap they did with the Panthers, minus the key vets and cap room.

Kaiser Toro
07-07-2006, 05:52 PM
Does get old doesn't it? LOL

It sure does, but that is what the market unfortunatley wants when there is nothing else to talk about.

Hopefully the new staff, revamped line, Moulds, Putzier, Flanagan, Walter, Cook, Spencer and Winston wil help our starting QB.

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 05:56 PM
Or Bledsoe or Brunell.

All talented QBs.....Palmer isn't. Can't really say that he's proven himself. I've watched him for years and I haven't been impressed. I think he has alot of football knowledge but he doesn't seem to get the power to the wheels....jmo

DocBar
07-07-2006, 05:57 PM
It sure does, but that is what the market unfortunatley wants when there is nothing else to talk about.

Hopefully the new staff, revamped line, Moulds, Putzier, Flanagan, Walter, Cook, Spencer and Winston wil help our starting QB.
Who is Cook? It's not the guy from South Park, is it? I love that guy.

Kaiser Toro
07-07-2006, 06:04 PM
All talented QBs.....Palmer isn't. Can't really say that he's proven himself. I've watched him for years and I haven't been impressed. I think he has alot of football knowledge but he doesn't seem to get the power to the wheels....jmo

I was referring to Chris Palmer rubbing off on Couch and Carr.

Kaiser Toro
07-07-2006, 06:05 PM
Who is Cook? It's not the guy from South Park, is it? I love that guy.

Our most likely new strating FB, Jameel Cook.

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 06:15 PM
I was referring to Chris Palmer rubbing off on Couch and Carr.

hehehe.....I'm confused.

Honch Delgado
07-07-2006, 07:58 PM
I can't imagine how people consider Banks to be an ok starter or backup. The guy sucks!


Some people are quick to forget that 7-9 season in which Banks heavily contributed to, in a positive way. You know, that season everyone pointed to when they thought we were on the verge of turning things around. He was OK when he was in, certainly no worse than Carr. As far as no NFL team wanting him now, he's probably still better than most NFL backups, just old.

TwinSisters
07-07-2006, 08:10 PM
but I don't know if that counts as a "Carr lover." Have you checked previous posts to make this opinion?

I am currently a card holding member of Carr Lovers Anonymous. 4 Years ago I took my first drink. He was, in my opinion, the best bottle on the shelf... at that time. Since then there has been a picture of Dave on my wall that is 6 to 10 times larger than my own mother. This image of his hangs with some of the greatest Texans that have ever lived ( Baugh, Earl, Sam, Jack Johnson ), and even some foreigners.

( and yes patrons that visit my humble abode chuckle when they see Carr hanging amongst the others... we shall see )

But that was 4 years ago. After watching this guy bumble around for 4 seasons straight, it's enough to sober up even the staunchest Irishman, the stoutest Scot, and the most tenacious German. Even a Kennedy would stop drinking for a day if they had to sit through a Texans game with him at the helm.

I afford him some time to grow some hair on his chest so to speak, but it's at the point where he needs to start to putting some licks down or ship out to California ( where they appreciate having good looking boys laying around the pool doing nothing but soaking up the sun ).

On stats and what they tell:
It's true that in football stats are incredibly slippery. For myself, the summer is when I spend most of my spare time digging through them to see what is going on without any games to watch. This particular guy at Football Outsiders didn't set out to finger Carr for a boob, he was looking to see if the 4th quarter comeback tag fits with the stats.

For me that didn't look good at all for Carr. He sits at the bottom of a bunch of QBs since 1996 that had a one score chance to tip a game from a lose to a win and didn't do it. That's a lot of QBs, games, and a lot of losers to get lumped together with.

Is it a be all end all stat that condemns Carr to Gifford Neilsen purgatory? No, it is not. But it is another dent in Houston's knight in shining armour that needs to be ironed out.

Sure it is just my opinion and I am cool with that. I sit at the opposite end of the table from you cats that are happy with a 'just good enough' QB. That's just not my flavour. I like ass kickin QB with some pop in them that can tilt the field just by looking at it.
---

For those folks that don't know Giff ( he's a nice wonderful person... a great person indeed, but a black hole in the pocket that could suck out the light of victory from the sun itself )

http://www.cougarclub.com/hall_of_fame/nielsen_g.html

---

Also for those fellas that think Carr needs to be cuddled like a little baby, come on now... the guy made enough dough to put his entire family through med school before he even touched a Texans' ball. More then several doctors make in a several lifetimes working in some God forsaken jungles in South America fighting off mosquitoes that could carry away his entire family in one night. He doesn't need to be cuddled.

Besides that he called Mario a "kid". That's says enough right there.

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 08:15 PM
I am currently a card holding member of Carr Lovers Anonymous. 4 Years ago I took my first drink. He was, in my opinion, the best bottle on the shelf... at that time. Since then there has been a picture of Dave on my wall that is 6 to 10 times larger than my own mother. This image of his hangs with some of the greatest Texans that have ever lived ( Baugh, Earl, Sam, Jack Johnson ), and even some foreigners.

( and yes patrons that visit my humble abode chuckle when they see Carr hanging amongst the others... we shall see )

But that was 4 years ago. After watching this guy bumble around for 4 seasons straight, it's enough to sober up even the staunchest Irishman, the stoutest Scot, and the most tenacious German. Even a Kennedy would stop drinking for a day if they had to sit through a Texans game with him at the helm.

I afford him some time to grow some hair on his chest so to speak, but it's at the point where he needs to start to putting some licks down or ship out to California ( where they appreciate having good looking boys laying around the pool doing nothing but soaking up the sun ).

On stats and what they tell:
It's true that in football stats are incredibly slippery. For myself, the summer is when I spend most of my spare time digging through them to see what is going on without any games to watch. This particular guy at Football Outsiders didn't set out to finger Carr for a boob, he was looking to see if the 4th quarter comeback tag fits with the stats.

For me that didn't look good at all for Carr. He sits at the bottom of a bunch of QBs since 1996 that had a one score chance to tip a game from a lose to a win and didn't do it. That's a lot of QBs, games, and a lot of losers to get lumped together with.

Is it a be all end all stat that condemns Carr to Gifford Neilsen purgatory? No, it is not. But it is another dent in Houston's knight in shining armour that needs to be ironed out.

Sure it is just my opinion and I am cool with that. I sit at the opposite end of the table from you cats that are happy with a 'just good enough' QB. That's just not my flavour. I like ass kickin QB with some pop in them that can tilt the field just by looking at it.
---

For those folks that don't know Giff ( he's a nice wonderful person... a great person indeed, but a black hole in the pocket that could suck out the light of victory from the sun itself )

http://www.cougarclub.com/hall_of_fame/nielsen_g.html

---

Also for those fellas that think Carr needs to be cuddled like a little baby, come on now... the guy made enough dough to put his entire family through med school before he even touched a Texans' ball. More then several doctors make in a several lifetimes working in some God forsaken jungles in South America fighting off mosquitoes that could carry away his entire family in one night. He doesn't need to be cuddled.

Besides that he called Mario a "kid". That's says enough right there.

LOL....I guess they don't need to look at old posts now. That oughta "get 'er done"

bayoudreamn
07-07-2006, 08:19 PM
I am currently a card holding member of Carr Lovers Anonymous. 4 Years ago I took my first drink. He was, in my opinion, the best bottle on the shelf... at that time. Since then there has been a picture of Dave on my wall that is 6 to 10 times larger than my own mother. This image of his hangs with some of the greatest Texans that have ever lived ( Baugh, Earl, Sam, Jack Johnson ), and even some foreigners.

( and yes patrons that visit my humble abode chuckle when they see Carr hanging amongst the others... we shall see )

But that was 4 years ago. After watching this guy bumble around for 4 seasons straight, it's enough to sober up even the staunchest Irishman, the stoutest Scot, and the most tenacious German. Even a Kennedy would stop drinking for a day if they had to sit through a Texans game with him at the helm.

I afford him some time to grow some hair on his chest so to speak, but it's at the point where he needs to start to putting some licks down or ship out to California ( where they appreciate having good looking boys laying around the pool doing nothing but soaking up the sun ).

On stats and what they tell:
It's true that in football stats are incredibly slippery. For myself, the summer is when I spend most of my spare time digging through them to see what is going on without any games to watch. This particular guy at Football Outsiders didn't set out to finger Carr for a boob, he was looking to see if the 4th quarter comeback tag fits with the stats.

For me that didn't look good at all for Carr. He sits at the bottom of a bunch of QBs since 1996 that had a one score chance to tip a game from a lose to a win and didn't do it. That's a lot of QBs, games, and a lot of losers to get lumped together with.

Is it a be all end all stat that condemns Carr to Gifford Neilsen purgatory? No, it is not. But it is another dent in Houston's knight in shining armour that needs to be ironed out.

Sure it is just my opinion and I am cool with that. I sit at the opposite end of the table from you cats that are happy with a 'just good enough' QB. That's just not my flavour. I like ass kickin QB with some pop in them that can tilt the field just by looking at it.
---

For those folks that don't know Giff ( he's a nice wonderful person... a great person indeed, but a black hole in the pocket that could suck out the light of victory from the sun itself )

http://www.cougarclub.com/hall_of_fame/nielsen_g.html

---

Also for those fellas that think Carr needs to be cuddled like a little baby, come on now... the guy made enough dough to put his entire family through med school before he even touched a Texans' ball. More then several doctors make in a several lifetimes working in some God forsaken jungles in South America fighting off mosquitoes that could carry away his entire family in one night. He doesn't need to be cuddled.

Besides that he called Mario a "kid". That's says enough right there.

btw....though I don't think you took it personally......it wasn't personal. I've seen your post. You aren't a hater.....but you aren't a "Carr lover." Before I get labeled either way.....my opinion is based on the fact that we've had a problem with the entire offense for four years. That shouldn't be blamed on one person. It was obviously a team effort.

The quarterback pay debate is a league debate. Every NFL quarterback makes a mint. It's a moot point as long as people spend the $$$ they spend on NFL products and tickets. We can cry foul all day....it does no good.

edo783
07-07-2006, 09:01 PM
TwinSisters posts some great stuff.....but I don't know if that counts as a "Carr lover." Have you checked previous posts to make this opinion?

Sorry, it seems a couple of folks have mis-interpreted my sarcasim. I was pointing out that some who keep starting threads that wind up being Carr debats are accused of being the "Carr lovers" when IMO, a great many wind up being Carr threads because a certain group of folks just can't resist taking a slap at Carr on virtually every post they make, and then Booom, off goes a perfectly good football conversation about anything else but Carr into a Pro Vs Con Carr thread. I see a great many threads started by those elements that are disingenouse in nature, just to draw the fire storm so they can again make deroggetory remarks while others are trying to have a Texans/football conversation and wind up getting the thread highjacked. The interesting thing is that it is usually the same 6 or so very prolific posters. So, in the final, this isn't a pro Carr started thread, but rather one that was done to allow a forum for a certain element to again whinn and moan about Carr.

DocBar
07-07-2006, 10:54 PM
I was with ya right up to the Kennedy part. That's just silly!!!! A Kennedy would KILL to keep drinking. Watching Carr is nowhere near THAT bad.

MorKnolle
07-08-2006, 11:39 AM
Some people are quick to forget that 7-9 season in which Banks heavily contributed to, in a positive way. You know, that season everyone pointed to when they thought we were on the verge of turning things around. He was OK when he was in, certainly no worse than Carr. As far as no NFL team wanting him now, he's probably still better than most NFL backups, just old.

What did Banks heavily contribute to the 2004 season? He attempted two passes that year, one less than Jabar Gaffney did. He played a decent amount in 2003 when the Texans went 5-11.

Honch Delgado
07-08-2006, 01:44 PM
What did Banks heavily contribute to the 2004 season? He attempted two passes that year, one less than Jabar Gaffney did. He played a decent amount in 2003 when the Texans went 5-11.

You are correct sir. Banks is credited with starting 3 games during the 2003 season with wins over Carolina and Atlanta and a loss to NE and saw action in losses to KC, Indy, and a win against Buffalo. I thought he played a stretch of games in the 04 season, but I was mistaken. Anyway I thought he was a serviceable backup, not starting material but good enough to control a game.

Wolf
07-08-2006, 02:52 PM
stats speaks for themselves.. but what frustrates me at times is it isn't fair to say Carr didn't get it done (all the time) on that.. I recall more than I would like where we are in shotgun and the defense gets to him with a four man rush before he has a chance to even set up... OL missed the assignment on that one.. killed the drive where is how many 3rd down and something in the forth quarted did a team pickup a key play being they had a huge am't of time to scan the whole field twice over

now is it all the offensive lines fault no, and yes Carr should shoulder some of the blame.. and IMO on key situations you have to have a threat at TE to be the QB's safety valve.


and yes stats can be spun around any which way..

with all that said.. does that site have a team 4th quarter combacks?

TwinSisters
07-08-2006, 04:51 PM
No, I don;t think Outsiders has a complete play-by-play log up to sort stuff like 4th quarter results for specific tasks. That particular article was a feature piece.

here's a good article on stats though
http://www.slate.com/id/2092863
2003

It features Schwartz from the Tennesse crew. I am looking at some stuff of his right now... I have been meaning to post some of it up, but I have been too lazy.

EDIT:

http://footballproject.com/

Once these guys get something up, then it's bean counters' heaven!!! 7 foot tall jar tears of joy!

thunderkyss
07-08-2006, 05:25 PM
You are correct sir. Banks is credited with starting 3 games during the 2003 season with wins over Carolina and Atlanta and a loss to NE and saw action in losses to KC, Indy, and a win against Buffalo. I thought he played a stretch of games in the 04 season, but I was mistaken. Anyway I thought he was a serviceable backup, not starting material but good enough to control a game.

For me, I want a young QB with some experience.... I want someone who is working day in, and day out to be the starter. When he gets his chance to play, he knows what it would mean to his career if he plays well. & he knows he will have no excuses....... not Offensive line, not brick hands, not bad calls, none.

I didn't see that with Banks... Banks was happy being a back-up, and he should've been aware that he has no chance(if any) to ever be a starter. His Job was to fill a spot, until Carr got healthy again.....

Now I understand some folks wanting a seasoned vets to help us get wins in the event our primary option goes down. But in my mind, this seasoned vet needs to be someone who has experienced success in some way shape or form. Banks did not fill that role either.

thunderkyss
07-08-2006, 05:30 PM
stats speaks for themselves.. but what frustrates me at times is it isn't fair to say Carr didn't get it done (all the time) on that.. I recall more than I would like where we are in shotgun and the defense gets to him with a four man rush before he has a chance to even set up... OL missed the assignment on that one.. killed the drive where is how many 3rd down and something in the forth quarted did a team pickup a key play being they had a huge am't of time to scan the whole field twice over

now is it all the offensive lines fault no, and yes Carr should shoulder some of the blame.. and IMO on key situations you have to have a threat at TE to be the QB's safety valve.


and yes stats can be spun around any which way..

with all that said.. does that site have a team 4th quarter combacks?


So you've got Carr in the shotgun, and he doesn't even have time to set up....... are you sure about that?? Shotgun, he's already 7 yards behind the center, all he has to do is catch the ball, and raise it above his shoulders, and he's set up... are you saying he couldn't even do that?? that he didn't read the rush was infact coming?? that he still waited for someone to get open before he'd throw the ball??

I don't think that helps Carr's defense in any way.

infantrycak
07-08-2006, 05:58 PM
You are correct sir. Banks is credited with starting 3 games during the 2003 season with wins over Carolina and Atlanta and a loss to NE and saw action in losses to KC, Indy, and a win against Buffalo. I thought he played a stretch of games in the 04 season, but I was mistaken. Anyway I thought he was a serviceable backup, not starting material but good enough to control a game.

Just FYI--Banks left the Atlanta game with the Texans behind. Carr came in during the time period the Texans won the game.

thegr8fan
07-08-2006, 10:31 PM
You are correct sir. Banks is credited with starting 3 games during the 2003 season with wins over Carolina and Atlanta and a loss to NE and saw action in losses to KC, Indy, and a win against Buffalo. I thought he played a stretch of games in the 04 season, but I was mistaken. Anyway I thought he was a serviceable backup, not starting material but good enough to control a game. just some more FYI, that was also the year that Carolina and NE went to the superbowl, and we lost to NE, in OT.

Banks played both Superbowl attendee's, beat one, played the other to OT, and did it on a team that a #1 draft pick QB couldn't get but 4 other wins out of the entire season with. :rolleyes:

Sage needs to be ready, cause Kubiak won't put up with Carr's bad playing on a personal level, like the old regime did.

the wonger need food
07-08-2006, 10:43 PM
just some more FYI, that was also the year that Carolina and NE went to the superbowl, and we lost to NE, in OT.

Banks played both Superbowl attendee's, beat one, played the other to OT, and did it on a team that a #1 draft pick QB couldn't get but 4 other wins out of the entire season with. :rolleyes:

Sage needs to be ready, cause Kubiak won't put up with Carr's bad playing on a personal level, like the old regime did.

I'm still amazed that it took Capers 4 full season to finally bench Carr. And I wonder if it was intentionally his last statement as the head coach.

I have a feeling that Rosenslice is going to take some meaningful snaps this season. I hope that's not the case, but Carr's history of terrible performances makes it almost inevitable.

Wolf
07-08-2006, 11:21 PM
So you've got Carr in the shotgun, and he doesn't even have time to set up....... are you sure about that?? Shotgun, he's already 7 yards behind the center, all he has to do is catch the ball, and raise it above his shoulders, and he's set up... are you saying he couldn't even do that?? that he didn't read the rush was infact coming?? that he still waited for someone to get open before he'd throw the ball??

I don't think that helps Carr's defense in any way.

did you watch any games.. I have seen him get hit in that formation. on a 4 man rush mind you
I

TwinSisters
07-09-2006, 12:00 AM
The problem with the shotgun could have been many different things. It's not going to solve anything as far as Carr is concerned ( or to be more precise reveal a fallacy or a strength )

Changes in the line could have blown the plays, crowd noise, poor snap, or even Carr not feeling comfortable and not being able to read fast enough.

Q: It seems like you guys don't use the shotgun very much. Is that correct?

MS: I don't think so. We use it quite a bit. Maybe not as much as we did with John [Elway] because John always liked to be in it. On third down situations I think we've been in it quite a bit.

Q: What are the pros and cons of using the shotgun?

MS: The positives are you get a chance to separate yourself from the defenders so if there is a blitz the quarterback has a little extra time to get rid of the football. You have a little extra separation from the offensive line to read the coverage. The negative is there's not as big a threat in the running game when you're in the shotgun.

Q: Is there a key to the shotgun formation as a quarterback?

MS: Well I think you see the field a little bit better. Tom does a great job of getting the ball and surveying the ball. A lot of quarterbacks can get a snap and not even look at the ball and get a little separation from the line of scrimmage and gets him a little half second to a second to go through his pre-snap reads. Some people feel very comfortable with it. When I was with Joe Montana and Steve Young they wouldn't even catch the snap because they didn't want to be in the shotgun. They'd miss it on purpose because they felt so comfortable with 3-5-7 step drop and not get into the shotgun. So I think a lot has to do with how a quarterback feels. A lot of them look at it differently. But you couldn't get Joe Montana or Steve Young in a shotgun formation if you tried.
http://www.patriots.com/mediacenter/index.cfm?ac=audionewsdetail&pid=15040&pcid=85

MS is Mike Shanahan.. so you can see how some QBs just do not like it. I am not sure Carr has the personality to just drop the ball if he didn't want to use it. He strikes me as a guy that would just try it if he was told to.

Here's Sherman and Flanagan talking about it in the Metrodome and how the noise effects the shotgun
http://www.packers.com/news/stories/2005/11/02/2/

You might be thinking big deal if he is not comfortable, but I disagree... you have factions of a second to make any given play work and little things like that could result in a sack... either from the line or the QB.

infantrycak
07-09-2006, 12:13 AM
Banks played both Superbowl attendee's, beat one, played the other to OT

Uh, oh--gr8's playing the hyperbole game again.

Oh yeah--let's not forget the superlative play of Tony Banks singlehandedly resulting in the Texans taking the SB champs to OT. Nothing spells winner (well or in this case OT loser) like a 40% completion rate for less than 100 yds passing. Nothing could take that regulation tie away from Banks--it's not like its a team sport with Ramon Walker blocking both a punt and field goal, Eric Brown and Marcus Coleman both getting INT's, Foreman recovering a fumble for 33 yds (anybody noticing a trend how everyone in this sentence is gone from the Texans and 3 of 4 are gone from the NFL?), Viniteri missing a field goal, etc. Nope--Banks was the man that day.

Frankly, shouldn't a bust of Banks be added to the statue outside the stadium?--cause seriously every time he is brought up, bull is involved.

jerek
07-09-2006, 12:48 AM
Uh, oh--gr8's playing the hyperbole game again.

Oh yeah--let's not forget the superlative play of Tony Banks singlehandedly resulting in the Texans taking the SB champs to OT. Nothing spells winner (well or in this case OT loser) like a 40% completion rate for less than 100 yds passing. Nothing could take that regulation tie away from Banks--it's not like its a team sport with Ramon Walker blocking both a punt and field goal, Eric Brown and Marcus Coleman both getting INT's, Foreman recovering a fumble for 33 yds (anybody noticing a trend how everyone in this sentence is gone from the Texans and 3 of 4 are gone from the NFL?), Viniteri missing a field goal, etc. Nope--Banks was the man that day.

Frankly, shouldn't a bust of Banks be added to the statue outside the stadium?--cause seriously every time he is brought up, bull is involved.

Dude, Banks is a leader. You don't get it -- him being on the field, rather than No-Mojo Carr, is what made the difference.

TwinSisters
07-09-2006, 01:19 AM
Frankly, shouldn't a bust of Banks be added to the statue outside the stadium?--cause seriously every time he is brought up, bull is involved.

:hmmm: But Banks ranks amongst the bottom ten of QBs since 1996 that had a one score chance to pull off a comeback?? That's not better.

----

The latest rankings just came out today

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5764156

#23 over Volek and Brad Johnson at least!!

most likely should start a new thread for it... but then again maybe not

23. Houston
David Carr was terrible last year, but conventional wisdom says he's the victim of circumstance. But now that a new coaching staff is taking over in Houston, this is probably the last year he can use that excuse. Sage Rosenfels is nobody's idea of a starting quarterback, but he's also not the bum that most people think he is. He's a serviceable backup.

DocBar
07-09-2006, 06:15 AM
:hmmm: But Banks ranks amongst the bottom ten of QBs since 1996 that had a one score chance to pull off a comeback?? That's not better.

----

The latest rankings just came out today

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5764156

#23 over Volek and Brad Johnson at least!!

most likely should start a new thread for it... but then again maybe not
Are you letting those snow monkeys play with the keyboard again? LOL

DominickDavisFan76
07-09-2006, 10:38 AM
When the going gets tough, pull Carr and....TRADE FOR OMAR!:ok:

CajunTexan
07-09-2006, 11:57 AM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/06/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/3978/

Nothing really all that telling here, but an interesting article nonetheless.



Billy Joe Tolliver is ranked with Carr... I think I am going to start the Lord's Prayer right now.

The one name that is missing that, IMO, renders this stat useless, is the guy whose team has won 1/3 of the Super bowls since 1996. Tom Brady.

I would also be willing to bet, that if they projected this stat back over the Super Bowl era, there would be some other names that might not be in the "significatley good" catagory either. Bradshaw, Montana and Aikman.

These guys were on teams, during their championship runs, that rarely put them in a postition to need to comeback, little on score in the fourth quarter.

thunderkyss
07-09-2006, 01:21 PM
did you watch any games.. I have seen him get hit in that formation. on a 4 man rush mind you
I


I'm not saying he didn't.......... just saying you can't blame anyone other than the QB for taking a sack from the shotgun.

TwinSisters
07-09-2006, 02:20 PM
The one name that is missing that, IMO, renders this stat useless, is the guy whose team has won 1/3 of the Super bowls since 1996. Tom Brady.

I would also be willing to bet, that if they projected this stat back over the Super Bowl era, there would be some other names that might not be in the "significatley good" catagory either. Bradshaw, Montana and Aikman.

These guys were on teams, during their championship runs, that rarely put them in a postition to need to comeback, little on score in the fourth quarter.

No Brady is in the top ten for the hard stats of 4th Quarter comebacks. 13-8 with a good share of them in the post season. He just didn't have enough situations to overcome to place up there with Kent Graham!

So Wolf...if I had to guess with out the numbers in front of me... I would think the Patriots and the Steelers had the most 4th Quarter games, since Bledsoe lost a whopping 61 of them since 1996.

infantrycak
07-09-2006, 03:47 PM
you can't blame anyone other than the QB for taking a sack from the shotgun.

That's absurd. The shotgun generally screams to the D, hey this is a passing play pin your ears back. In the meantime it does nothing to get the WR's into their routes and open faster. It also, in contrast to a designed roll out, does not put the QB out of the pocket such that the ball can be thrown away without an intentional grounding penalty. 11 of Peyton's 17 sacks last year came from the shotgun, 9 of 13 sacks the year before. Every QB in the league takes sacks from the shotgun and they aren't all just too stupid to figure out that it should never happen.

DocBar
07-09-2006, 03:53 PM
That's absurd. The shotgun generally screams to the D, hey this is a passing play pin your ears back. In the meantime it does nothing to get the WR's into their routes and open faster. It also, in contrast to a designed roll out, does not put the QB out of the pocket such that the ball can be thrown away without an intentional grounding penalty. 11 of Peyton's 17 sacks last year came from the shotgun, 9 of 13 sacks the year before. Every QB in the league takes sacks from the shotgun and they aren't all just too stupid to figure out that it should never happen.
The shotgun can also put the RB out of position to pick up the blitz. Lots of gunfire here. I hope it's all because they are happy over the world cup. Heard less in Iraq in '04

TwinSisters
07-09-2006, 04:52 PM
I'm not saying he didn't.......... just saying you can't blame anyone other than the QB for taking a sack from the shotgun.

yeah Mr.Thunderkyss, that's a losing battle. I would just take a knee and punt on that one. The Shotgun has had critics that date back to the day it started with Red Hickey. Some guys can do it and a lot can't.

DocBar
07-09-2006, 05:01 PM
yeah Mr.Thunderkyss, that's a losing battle. I would just take a knee and punt on that one. The Shotgun has had critics that date back to the day it started with Red Hickey. Some guys can do it and a lot can't.
Have you checked the immigration staus of said monkeys, and shouldn't there have been some progression in the shotgun offense since its inception? Also,
what are your thoughts on a hit and run type offense for the Texans and can Eric Moulds be the base stealer Phil "I'm a Kubiak Fan" Garner thinks he should be? Should Zidane be considered as a free agent aquisition/team captain for the Texans in light of Frances unlikely advance to the finals in the World Cup? Dos the World Cup even matter? Is the 7 hour time difference in allowable drinking hours showing? Try being in France when they lose the World Cup.

TwinSisters
07-09-2006, 06:52 PM
Have you checked the immigration staus of said monkeys, and shouldn't there have been some progression in the shotgun offense since its inception?

There has.. it's called the spread and the run'n'shoot. And all three suffer from the same criticism: that it gives up too many sacks.

Yet with the right guys it always seems to work well... Starbach, Moon, Elway, Favre, etc.

http://www.packersnews.com/welcome/to/pack_1326618.shtml

even did it with "hands of stone" Corey Bradford.

DocBar
07-09-2006, 07:07 PM
There has.. it's called the spread and the run'n'shoot. And all three suffer from the same criticism: that it gives up too many sacks.

Yet with the right guys it always seems to work well... Starbach, Moon, Elway, Favre, etc.

http://www.packersnews.com/welcome/to/pack_1326618.shtml

even did it with "hands of stone" Corey Bradford.
But what about the monkey's? And only Moon ran an authentic version of the "chuck and duck". Well, maybe that Houston guy who defected to Buffalo did. What is his name? If he's not a Hall of Famer, he should be. Great passer.
Oh yeah...Jim Kelly. Everyone else did it halfway at best.

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 08:34 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/06/26/ramblings/stat-analysis/3978/

Nothing really all that telling here, but an interesting article nonetheless.



Billy Joe Tolliver is ranked with Carr... I think I am going to start the Lord's Prayer right now.
Matt Haselback sucks to I guess.

PLEASE PEOPLE take in the fact what the guy has had to work with, will you do me that next time you try to act like this guy has had it just as good as some other QBs in the NFL.

I have an idea lets just put up all Joe Montanas records and compare them to Carrs.

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 08:40 PM
I'm not saying he didn't.......... just saying you can't blame anyone other than the QB for taking a sack from the shotgun.
You cant?...............Give me a break, it is almost too funny with some of the stuff I read here.

Let me put it this way, I just started up playing football again, playing DE. The team we played yesterday had a guy in the Shotgun!!!!!! I jumped the snap, the LT barely got out of his stance, Got my sack IN A SHOTGUN fromation, and that is the QBs fault for only having 2 seconds to throw the ball? AND WE were pressing as well, he had no chance, it was NOT his fault.

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 08:55 PM
]']I agree, the best player to get us wins should start at QB. For now it's Carr.

I disagree. I would rather start Sage and take my chances. Carr is terrible. The sooner this franchise realizes this, the better off we will all be.

bigtex77
07-09-2006, 09:05 PM
I disagree. I would rather start Sage and take my chances. Carr is terrible. The sooner this franchise realizes this, the better off we will all be.


We won't know if Carr is terrible until after this season, now that he has weapons around him and (hopefully) a better offensive line. I am not a big Carr fan, but at the same time I would love to see the Carr haters stand in his shoes for a few games and get their heads taken off repeatedly. Let me put it this way: Carr, Sage, hell even Brady or Manning, take your pick and put them behind the same line and with the same weapons (or lack thereof) that David's had for four years and you get basically the same result - losses.

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:10 PM
We won't know if Carr is terrible until after this season, now that he has weapons around him and (hopefully) a better offensive line. I am not a big Carr fan, but at the same time I would love to see the Carr haters stand in his shoes for a few games and get their heads taken off repeatedly. Let me put it this way: Carr, Sage, hell even Brady or Manning, take your pick and put them behind the same line and with the same weapons (or lack thereof) that David's had for four years and you get basically the same result - losses.

Cry me a river with the hard life Carr has led as an NFL quarterback. I already know he is terrible...I had 4 years of watching him to know that. You might want to give him more time, I don't. Every quarterback in the nfl doesn't get gift wrapped a great set of circumstances. Let me put it this way. At his salary, with his performance, he is the most overpaid player in the NFL.

Wolf
07-09-2006, 09:13 PM
. Every quarterback in the nfl doesn't get gift wrapped a great set of circumstances. .


what would you all 200+ sacks over the years (yes we can debate all day long about if it is his fault or the OL fault).


you tell me another QB could perform with the pass blocking that our team has had?

and yes based on stats, one could say he is getting paid more than what he should

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:18 PM
what would you all 200+ sacks over the years (yes we can debate all day long about if it is his fault or the OL fault).


you tell me another QB could perform with the pass blocking that our team has had?

and yes based on stats, one could say he is getting paid more than what he should


I dont care WHY he didnt win....I care that he didn't. He got sacked a lot. So what. You dont KNOW that he can perform with weapons. Im saying 5 years in the NFL is too long to hang the "potential" tag on somebody. Yes, I would rather start Sage. At least I dont KNOW he can't win. And the point is not whether peyton or vick or anyone else COULD have performed here either. We'll never know. You dont know how those qb's would have done, its a pointless hypothetical. What you do know, is what Carr did....or more accurately DIDNT do.

bigtex77
07-09-2006, 09:18 PM
I had 4 years of watching him to know that.


You are right, you've had 4 years of watching him behind no offensive line and with no weapons, if he doesn't drastically improve this season then I will feel the exact same way that you do.

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:20 PM
You are right, you've had 4 years of watching him behind no offensive line and with no weapons, if he doesn't drastically improve this season then I will feel the exact same way that you do.

What has he done to EARN the right to start for a 5th year for the Texans.

bigtex77
07-09-2006, 09:20 PM
You also don't "know" that David can't win, not for a fact, because of the lack of support. You can have your opinion, but theres no way to know.

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:22 PM
You also don't "know" that David can't win, not for a fact, because of the lack of support. You can have your opinion, but theres no way to know.

Yes I do....he has had ample opportunity.....4 seasons worth, and that IS a fact. Fine....dont say he "can't" win, since future prediction is impossible.....lets just say he DOESNT win. That I can prove.

bigtex77
07-09-2006, 09:23 PM
What has he done to EARN the right to start for a 5th year for the Texans.

How about standing in there and taking the freaking beating he's taken for four years? I think he's more than earned a chance to prove he can be successful this season.

TwinSisters
07-09-2006, 09:24 PM
Matt Haselback sucks to I guess.
I have an idea lets just put up all Joe Montanas records and compare them to Carrs.

All right... all things being equal. It's the 4th Quarter and you are down by one score. You make the call.

Do you A: Insert Joe Montana?

or

B: Leave David Carr in command and sit peacefully sipping your cold beer knowing that the game is surely won.

---

Doc on Jim Kelly.. the thing about him is that I remember him mostly for his no huddle command and Thurman Thomas made his run-n-shoot work. ( the Gamblers period would be different, but to tell you the truth I cannot remember a single USFL game!!! )

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:25 PM
How about standing in there and taking the freaking beating he's taken for four years? I think he's more than earned a chance to prove he can be successful this season.

Being a tackling dummy doesn't earn you anything in my book. I don't want to waste a "sympathy season" on Carr because he got hit a lot. He hasn't done anything, hasn't had a winning season, hasn't shown much during the season to make me think his performance was anybody's fault but his, and hasn't earned anything. He gets gift wrapped a large contract extension, and everybody around here is pretending we are okay with him as our qb when we have been repeatedly shown we are not. Start Sage.

Wolf
07-09-2006, 09:26 PM
What has he done to EARN the right to start for a 5th year for the Texans.


you don't know if he has EARNED the right to start year 5, Kubiak is deciding that when TC starts. and yes more than likely David will start but I do recall Kubiak saying no one is getting a free pass (see TJ).

To me in the Capers era, they should have benched Carr when he struggled, just to get Banks in to give Carr some game film to study from Banks (whether good or bad) who was an experienced NFL QB.

At this point I trust Kubiak isn't going to make the same mistake. we wouldn't have had this discussion after the 2004 season,because It is almost safe to say everyone was pleased with the progression Carr was making

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:30 PM
you don't know if he has EARNED the right to start year 5, Kubiak is deciding that when TC starts. and yes more than likely David will start but I do recall Kubiak saying no one is getting a free pass (see TJ).

To me in the Capers era, they should have benched Carr when he struggled, just to get Banks in to give Carr some game film to study from Banks (whether good or bad) who was an experienced NFL QB.

At this point I trust Kubiak isn't going to make the same mistake. we wouldn't have had this discussion after the 2004 season,because It is almost safe to say everyone was pleased with the progression Carr was making

Its not safe to say that....I dont know if you feel like archive digging, but I've been down on Carr for quite some time. Carr is being given a free pass by everyone on this board and i can't for the life of me understand why

bigtex77
07-09-2006, 09:31 PM
Yes I do....he has had ample opportunity.....4 seasons worth, and that IS a fact. Fine....dont say he "can't" win, since future prediction is impossible.....lets just say he DOESNT win. That I can prove.


That's my point, an "ample" opportunity to what? Get killed? OK David,
1) Here's the worst o-line in the league
2) AJ (oh never mind the fact that he's double covered, you'll never have time to get the ball off anyway)
3) Corey (Hands of Steel) Bradford

Good luck.

Thats like sendiing Lance Armstrong to the Tour de France with a tri-cycle and then saying he sucks because he doesn't win.

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:32 PM
That's my point, an "ample" opportunity to what? Get killed? OK David,
1) Here's the worst o-line in the league
2) AJ (oh never mind the fact that he's double covered, you'll never have time to get the ball off anyway)
3) Corey (Hands of Steel) Bradford

Good luck.

Thats like sendiing Lance Armstrong to the Tour de France with a tri-cycle and then saying he sucks because he doesn't win.

Excuses. Im tired of excuses for david carr.

Wolf
07-09-2006, 09:34 PM
my honest opinion on Carr, if Kubiak can't turn him around, and with the talent we have added, then noone can

Carr can make all the throws (see videos that are posted on website), yet Kubiak has to get into his head and get him to make the right reads and make them fast..

I can give the offense and defense some leadway early in the season due to all new schemes, but if Carr regresses with kubiak leading the way, I'll agree with you 100 percent

It would stink ,but I'd be petitioning for Quinn

CloakNNNdagger
07-09-2006, 09:34 PM
You cant?...............Give me a break, it is almost too funny with some of the stuff I read here.

Let me put it this way, I just started up playing football again, playing DE. The team we played yesterday had a guy in the Shotgun!!!!!! I jumped the snap, the LT barely got out of his stance, Got my sack IN A SHOTGUN fromation, and that is the QBs fault for only having 2 seconds to throw the ball? AND WE were pressing as well, he had no chance, it was NOT his fault.

Theoretically the shotgun is supposed to give the QB an extra split second to read the D..........that "extra" time goes right out the window when the OL is facing the D secondary instead of the DL..:brickwall

bigtex77
07-09-2006, 09:34 PM
Excuses. Im tired of excuses for david carr.

You can't honestly tell me that David has been given a truly fair chance to win with this organization, before this season. If so, you are kidding yourself.

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:39 PM
You can't honestly tell me that David has been given a truly fair chance to win with this organization, before this season. If so, you are kidding yourself.

The NFL isn't fair. I dont believe he deserves a "fair" chance. I want a qb that wins, and could care less about carr or his feelings or hardship. He controlled his destiny, he took the snaps, he dictated the results. He didn't win. No sympathy over here.

The Pencil Neck
07-09-2006, 09:42 PM
What has he done to EARN the right to start for a 5th year for the Texans.

He convinced Kubiak (and several other coaches) that he should be his starter.

That's all it takes.

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 09:42 PM
The NFL isn't fair. I dont believe he deserves a "fair" chance. I want a qb that wins, and could care less about carr or his feelings or hardship. He controlled his destiny, he took the snaps, he dictated the results. He didn't win. No sympathy over here.
My sides hurt again.lol:

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:45 PM
He convinced Kubiak (and several other coaches) that he should be his starter.

That's all it takes.

Yippy. Kubiak gets a paycheck and we get another sub .500 season. You satisfied with that? Im not.

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 09:48 PM
Theoretically the shotgun is supposed to give the QB an extra split second to read the D..........that "extra" time goes right out the window when the OL is facing the D secondary instead of the DL..:brickwall
Can you explain that?

Are you saying a sack that happens in 2 seconds when the QB is in Shotgun is the QBs fault?

bigtex77
07-09-2006, 09:49 PM
Yippy. Kubiak gets a paycheck and we get another sub .500 season. You satisfied with that? Im not.

Just read whats underneath your name, I'm done.

NATHANHALE
07-09-2006, 09:51 PM
"It is almost safe to say everyone was pleased with the progression Carr was making"


Why is it that so few people remember that the 2nd half of 2004 was not good for Carr or the Texans, ending with that horrendous game against the Browns? Carr had more INT's than TD's the 2nd half and we only beat 1 team with a winning record all year (Jags twice)--other 5 victories were against losing teams including the Titans (twice), which means we only beat 3 other teams besides the Jags and Titans.

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:51 PM
Just read whats underneath your name, I'm done.

That refers to my work in the no-spin zone......I legitimately think Carr is garbage.

Wolf
07-09-2006, 09:54 PM
"It is almost safe to say everyone was pleased with the progression Carr was making"


Why is it that so few people remember that the 2nd half of 2004 was not good for Carr or the Texans, ending with that horrendous game against the Browns? Carr had more INT's than TD's the 2nd half and we only beat 1 team with a winning record all year (Jags twice)--other 5 victories were against losing teams including the Titans (twice), which means we only beat 3 other teams besides the Jags and Titans.


I am saying as a season as a whole, he improved in areas but yes after the dreaded possible "playoff" talk in the middle of the season ..we flopped

NATHANHALE
07-09-2006, 09:55 PM
He convinced Kubiak (and several other coaches) that he should be his starter.

That's all it takes.

IMO, McNair is the reason Carr is starting. PERIOD.

bigtex77
07-09-2006, 09:55 PM
That refers to my work in the no-spin zone......I legitimately think Carr is garbage.

I was just kidding. I do understand why you feel that way towards Carr, the only difference between us is that this season will be the deciding factor for me. If he still sucks, I hope you have room on the "Carr sucks" bandwagon.

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 09:56 PM
That refers to my work in the no-spin zone......I legitimately think Carr is garbage.
Yes for the 2,000,000,000 time we understand, maybe you should write a letter and tell how much you HATE.......oooppps I mean tell them how much you dis-like him. :cool:

swtbound07
07-09-2006, 09:59 PM
Yes for the 2,000,000,000 time we understand, maybe you should write a letter and tell how much you HATE.......oooppps I mean tell them how much you dis-like him. :cool:

I plan on being a bastion for my position over the offseason Hulk....for every pro-carr post, for every "lets give our buddy carr another chance" post, I'll be there as a counter-view. Its my dedication. You can say hate...I don't mind. I imagine I will sound like a broken record over the next few months...but remember what I said about the draft...it applies here too. Once kickoff starts, I cheer for ALL the Texans. But in the offseason....Carr=overrated.

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 10:04 PM
I plan on being a bastion for my position over the offseason Hulk....for every pro-carr post, for every "lets give our buddy carr another chance" post, I'll be there as a counter-view. Its my dedication. You can say hate...I don't mind. I imagine I will sound like a broken record over the next few months...but remember what I said about the draft...it applies here too. Once kickoff starts, I cheer for ALL the Texans. But in the offseason....Carr=overrated.
Okay great I really dont care, I just dont know were all the hate comes from, has nothing to do with football, come on now, hate suck garbage idiot...........come on man you can show a little respect to the guy...........I mean what if the guy goes off and and becomes a pro bowler and a Super Bowl Champion, then were does that leave all your comments? I mean there are NFL coaches over at Reliant that think he will be.

Give respect to get respect..............

Wolf
07-09-2006, 10:08 PM
I plan on being a bastion for my position over the offseason Hulk....for every pro-carr post, for every "lets give our buddy carr another chance" post, I'll be there as a counter-view. Its my dedication. You can say hate...I don't mind. I imagine I will sound like a broken record over the next few months...but remember what I said about the draft...it applies here too. Once kickoff starts, I cheer for ALL the Texans. But in the offseason....Carr=overrated.


but why would you hate on Carr, if you had the chance to make millions and take care of your family, you'd do it too :D
:stirpot:


BTW SWT I am kidding with ya , I was reading the post in the no football talk

NATHANHALE
07-09-2006, 10:11 PM
IMO, there are 2 primary areas in the passing game that Carr has not mastered-- (1) reading the defense and (2) getting rid of the ball. For whatever reason, Carr came to the pro level without several asapects of the pro game he should have already been doing automatically, like not locking onto his receiver and not running out of bounds with the ball. I still do not understand why the team waste so much of the play clock in the huddle, instead of getting to the line of scrimage to read the defense. How much is the slow reaction to read, react, and throw Carr's fault?

OK, so we improve the pass blocking plus move Carr around to help avoid the rush-we get the TE's involved in the passing game as well as the FB, and we add a #2 WR plus new faces at #3 and #4. Now, instead of a couple reads for Carr, we add several more. Does this mean he will now be able to do what he has never done before? Read. Find. React. Throw...

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 10:16 PM
IMO, there are 2 primary areas in the passing game that Carr has not mastered-- (1) reading the defense and (2) getting rid of the ball. For whatever reason, Carr came to the pro level without several asapects of the pro game he should have already been doing automatically, like not locking onto his receiver and not running out of bounds with the ball. I still do not understand why the team waste so much of the play clock in the huddle, instead of getting to the line of scrimage to read the defense. How much is the slow reaction to read, react, and throw Carr's fault?

OK, so we improve the pass blocking plus move Carr around to help avoid the rush-we get the TE's involved in the passing game as well as the FB, and we add a #2 WR plus new faces at #3 and #4. Now, instead of a couple reads for Carr, we add several more. Does this mean he will now be able to do what he has never done before? Read. Find. React. Throw...
There is a lot Peyton and Brady (maybe not Brady):) have not MASTERED.

And really we dont know that, you cant tell spit what he cant do yet with the sorry Offense he has ran in the past. And it was and still is sorry.

The Pencil Neck
07-09-2006, 10:17 PM
Yippy. Kubiak gets a paycheck and we get another sub .500 season. You satisfied with that? Im not.

You really think that Kubiak is getting paid for sub 500 seasons? I don't.

Personally, given the talent on this team, the best I expect this year is 8-8 and I don't care WHO's the QB. I'll be happy with over 5 wins this year. I expect a winning season next year.

The bottom line is that it hasn't been David Carr that's been losing all these games. Games aren't won or lost by the QB. They're won and lost by the team. Until we have a team that plays as a team, we're not going to be winners.

CloakNNNdagger
07-09-2006, 10:17 PM
Can you explain that?

Are you saying a sack that happens in 2 seconds when the QB is in Shotgun is the QBs fault?

Exactly the opposite..........I'm agreeing with you. If the OL isn't holding the the DL, it means the DL is already in the back field, leaving the OL looking unobstructed at the D secondary. In other words the OL's been beaten and hasn't given the extra time to the QB.............thus leading to the sack of the poor schmuck with the ball in his hands.:hides:

Wolf
07-09-2006, 10:18 PM
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=24022


has some links on it with Carr

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 10:21 PM
Exactly the opposite..........I'm agreeing with you. If the OL isn't holding the the DL, it means the DL is already in the back field, leaving the OL looking unobstructed at the D secondary. In other words the OL's been beaten and hasn't given the extra time to the QB.............thus leading to the sack of the poor schmuck with the ball in his hands.:hides:
Okay I just did not understand the way you put it before.:ok:

NATHANHALE
07-09-2006, 10:38 PM
"There is a lot Peyton and Brady (maybe not Brady) have not MASTERED."

...like what, given they are HUGE winning QB's?

bayoudreamn
07-09-2006, 11:29 PM
Can you explain that?

Are you saying a sack that happens in 2 seconds when the QB is in Shotgun is the QBs fault?

He's saying the OL is facing the defensive secondary because they let the Dline get by....enmasse

ooops.....already explained.....sorry

Hulk75
07-09-2006, 11:46 PM
"There is a lot Peyton and Brady (maybe not Brady) have not MASTERED."

...like what, given they are HUGE winning QB's?
Okay you win, Carr sucks, worst ever, Palmer showed us all he had, why would we even have this worthless guy around.

I got something Peyton can try and Master how about not being scared and freaking out cause he gets put on his back a few times, Did you happen to see what KIND OF QB he turned into when LBs and DE were breathing down HIS neck during the Playoff game against the Steelers.

Q:WAIT HULK are you saying the BEST Offense in the league, with the best QB in the league were rattled by a Pass Rush? .........
A:YES.

Q:Well what would happen if a SORRY Offensive scheme was ran in the NFL against Defenses like the Steelers?
A:205 Sacks in 4 years thats what would happen.

NATHANHALE
07-10-2006, 01:29 AM
Okay you win, Carr sucks, worst ever, Palmer showed us all he had, why would we even have this worthless guy around.

I got something Peyton can try and Master how about not being scared and freaking out cause he gets put on his back a few times, Did you happen to see what KIND OF QB he turned into when LBs and DE were breathing down HIS neck during the Playoff game against the Steelers.

Q:WAIT HULK are you saying the BEST Offense in the league, with the best QB in the league were rattled by a Pass Rush? .........
A:YES.

Q:Well what would happen if a SORRY Offensive scheme was ran in the NFL against Defenses like the Steelers?
A:205 Sacks in 4 years thats what would happen.


You make a lot of 'left field' statements that you never back up, yet you expect other posters to back their comments. Too, why do you 'lose it' when some one does not agree with you? This is a message board for everyone to use and express their opinions. If I brought up 2 of the greatest QB's and future Hall of Famers in the same 'breath' with a 5th yr starter who is still trying to make his mark, I'd expect to get hammered and wouldn't 'lose it' in responding...a grip, maybe.

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 09:36 AM
That's my point, an "ample" opportunity to what? Get killed? OK David,
1) Here's the worst o-line in the league
2) AJ (oh never mind the fact that he's double covered, you'll never have time to get the ball off anyway)
3) Corey (Hands of Steel) Bradford

Good luck.

Thats like sendiing Lance Armstrong to the Tour de France with a tri-cycle and then saying he sucks because he doesn't win.

It's only the worst Oline in the league, because they've given up 200 and some odd sacks in the last 4 years... you and I both know that would be less, if it were someone else in the backfield.

AJ's double covered?? somebody has got to be open, or single covered, or something..... the game is 11 on 11....... somebody's open

And there's another QB who had pretty good luck with Bradford as his #1

You can't honestly tell me that David has been given a truly fair chance to win with this organization, before this season. If so, you are kidding yourself.

But he looks like a rookie. He should look like a 4 year vet behind a terrible OLine..... but he looks like a rookie behind a 4 terrible OLine.

Can you explain that?

Are you saying a sack that happens in 2 seconds when the QB is in Shotgun is the QBs fault?

a 2 second sack from the shotgun is pretty amazing by itself.... if you're coming from his blind side....... I'd say it shouldn't be the QBs fault, but from the shotgun, he really shouldn't have a blindside.

Did you time the 2 seconds.......... I mean you might have thought it was 2 seconds, being the guy running and all, but it might have been closer to 5.

Okay great I really dont care, I just dont know were all the hate comes from, has nothing to do with football, come on now, hate suck garbage idiot...........come on man you can show a little respect to the guy...........I mean what if the guy goes off and and becomes a pro bowler and a Super Bowl Champion, then were does that leave all your comments? I mean there are NFL coaches over at Reliant that think he will be.

Give respect to get respect..............

A little OT........ but where do you stand on Domanick Davis?? good, bad, average, great??

Okay you win, Carr sucks, worst ever, Palmer showed us all he had, why would we even have this worthless guy around.

I got something Peyton can try and Master how about not being scared and freaking out cause he gets put on his back a few times, Did you happen to see what KIND OF QB he turned into when LBs and DE were breathing down HIS neck during the Playoff game against the Steelers.


to be fair...... the freaking out, was probably more to do with the fact that it was a divisional playoff game....... not a wild card.... we honestly have no idea how Carr would handle such a situation......... and we may never know.....

Kaiser Toro
07-10-2006, 09:40 AM
17 days until training camp.

infantrycak
07-10-2006, 09:42 AM
And there's another QB who had pretty good luck with Bradford as his #1

When was this?

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 09:54 AM
That's what I was wondering?

Bret Favre?

No,

Donald Driver 1999-2005

Antonio Freeman 1995-2001

would be considered a #1 over Bradford.


I can't explain it........ I had Bradford mixed up with someone else........

mistaken identity.... :brickwall

AFD1717
07-10-2006, 10:03 AM
I feel like I've heard this stuff about Carr before somewhere, but I can't remember where...

Stampede
07-10-2006, 10:57 AM
Carr you say?...First name David?....Hmmm, Clear frontrunner for the timex man of the year award id say. Good kid. Got somethin to prove this year.

Hulk75
07-10-2006, 11:09 AM
You make a lot of 'left field' statements that you never back up, yet you expect other posters to back their comments. Too, why do you 'lose it' when some one does not agree with you? This is a message board for everyone to use and express their opinions. If I brought up 2 of the greatest QB's and future Hall of Famers in the same 'breath' with a 5th yr starter who is still trying to make his mark, I'd expect to get hammered and wouldn't 'lose it' in responding...a grip, maybe.
Tell me what I said that was not true.............I invite you to go back and tell me something that is not true...........LEFT FIELD comments, bro I am not the one getting upset and going off topic like your last post telling me how horrable I get.............TELL ME SOMETHING I said that was not true!!!

I am probably one of the more calm people around here............And bro I know what the Meesage Board is, it is were most NEW people come to fight and argue when they see that their opinions are off.Come on man.

Left Field comments I am making- It probably just seems like it because you have never played the game of football before and you REALLY dont understand what I am talking about, you probably look to reporters to tell you how to think.

Here just so you think I am not yelling when I write things I will put HAPPY FACE on the end of each comment so you dont get upset when someone does not agree with your Left Field/Guessing comment:)

Hulk75
07-10-2006, 11:21 AM
THUNDER:A little OT........ but where do you stand on Domanick Davis?? good, bad, average, great??

I think if you can carry a Franchise as a RB and rush for 1,000 yards almost every year in the league, for 4 years you desirve to be called a Good RB, he is a little more then good though, just STAY HEALTHY DD.

If this guy could run like the wind, we would have one of the most complete backs in the NFL.

Kaiser Toro
07-10-2006, 11:22 AM
David Carr is the Texans starting QB and will be as such in 17 days when TC opens. He knows there is pressure, he wants to succeed and we all want him to succeed whether it is in the stat line or in the win column.

DocBar
07-10-2006, 11:26 AM
David Carr is the Texans starting QB and will be as such in 17 days when TC opens. He knows there is pressure, he wants to succeed and we all want him to succeed whether it is in the stat line or in the win column.
Amen, brother.:yahoo:

Hulk75
07-10-2006, 11:27 AM
David Carr is the Texans starting QB and will be as such in 17 days when TC opens. He knows there is pressure, he wants to succeed and we all want him to succeed whether it is in the stat line or in the win column.
Right on bro.:cool:

Stampede
07-10-2006, 11:56 AM
Does anyone else just have that feeling...not a stat or figure 1 to back it up but does anyone else just feel like something special is about to happen? I dont know man, but i can hardly wait to see how the season unfolds.

AFD1717
07-10-2006, 12:03 PM
Does anyone else just have that feeling...not a stat or figure 1 to back it up but does anyone else just feel like something special is about to happen? I dont know man, but i can hardly wait to see how the season unfolds.
I hear you. There are a ton of questions surrounding this team right now, but if most (or all) of them get answered positively - we can win A LOT of games. Thats what's great about the off season - everybody's undefeated.

Hulk75
07-10-2006, 12:49 PM
Does anyone else just have that feeling...not a stat or figure 1 to back it up but does anyone else just feel like something special is about to happen? I dont know man, but i can hardly wait to see how the season unfolds.
A HUGE smile is on my face, cause I feel the same way............something, you dont know what, but something special IS going to happen............Right on Brother!!!!!!!:ok:

Hulk75
07-10-2006, 03:14 PM
THUNDER=to be fair...... the freaking out, was probably more to do with the fact that it was a divisional playoff game....... not a wild card.... we honestly have no idea how Carr would handle such a situation......... and we may never know.....

I am watching the game right now on NFL Network...........He was rattled by the Pass Rush.

thunderkyss
07-10-2006, 03:23 PM
I am watching the game right now on NFL Network...........He was rattled by the Pass Rush.


uh....... no duh..... he's been in the conference Championship game before.... I know he wasn't "rattled" by the importance of the game. He was definitely "rattled" by the Pass Rush........


I was saying his attitude, demeanor, his candor........... he showed his frustration, because the game had more meaning than the BushBowl..... or whatever.

NATHANHALE
07-10-2006, 04:14 PM
"Left Field comments I am making- It probably just seems like it because you have never played the game of football before and you REALLY dont understand what I am talking about, you probably look to reporters to tell you how to think.'

...another perfect example of one of your 'out there' comments. Heck, I'm already on page 2..As far as football goes, been there and done that--and you?

Hulk75
07-10-2006, 04:22 PM
"Left Field comments I am making- It probably just seems like it because you have never played the game of football before and you REALLY dont understand what I am talking about, you probably look to reporters to tell you how to think.'

...another perfect example of one of your 'out there' comments. Heck, I'm already on page 2..As far as football goes, been there and done that--and you?
Like I said find something I have not told the truth about?

NATHANHALE
07-10-2006, 04:35 PM
Like I said find something I have not told the truth about?

It is not true I have not played football, nor is it true I get my info from reporters.

Hulk75
07-10-2006, 04:39 PM
It is not true I have not played football, nor is it true I get my info from reporters.
:ok: ..........