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TexansSeminole
06-30-2006, 12:38 AM
We're down 7 in the second quarter to the Colts. During the Colts last drive, Shantee Orr stripped Manning and Morlon Greenwood recovered.

But, on the very next play Carr was intercepted by Nick Harper, throwing toward Bradford.

Manning drove down the field with a 12 yard pass and a 31 yard touchdown pass.

HOU 0 IND 14

Indianapolis Colts at 11:22
D.Rayner kicks 67 yards from IND 30 to HST 3. J.Mathis to HST 21 for 18 yards (G.Sapp).
Houston Texans at 11:13
1-10-HOU21 (11:13) D.Davis right end to HST 18 for -3 yards (M.Reagor).
2-13-HOU18 (10:36) D.Davis up the middle to HST 17 for -1 yards (R.Brock).
3-14-HOU17 (10:06) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 33 for 16 yards (G.Brackett). (3 yards after catch.)
1-10-HOU33 (9:28) D.Davis left tackle to HST 44 for 11 yards (M.Doss, B.Sanders).
1-10-HOU44 (8:48) D.Davis left guard to HST 48 for 4 yards (Da.Reid).
2-6-HOU48 (8:12) D.Davis right guard to IND 41 for 11 yards (D.Freeney).IND-B.Sanders was injured during the play.
1-10-IND41 (7:38) PENALTY on IND-M.Reagor, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at IND 41 - No Play.
1-5-IND36 (7:27) D.Davis left guard to IND 34 for 2 yards (C.Simon).
2-3-IND34 (6:54) D.Davis left end ran ob at IND 34 for no gain (C.June).
3-3-IND34 (6:24) D.Davis up the middle to IND 33 for 1 yard (D.Thornton, M.Reagor).
4-2-IND33 (5:44) D.Carr left end ran ob at IND 27 for 6 yards (G.Sapp).
1-10-IND27 (5:21) D.Carr left end to IND 15 for 12 yards (G.Sapp).
1-10-IND15 (4:35) D.Davis right guard to IND 13 for 2 yards (D.Thornton).
2-8-IND13 (3:57) D.Davis up the middle to IND 8 for 5 yards (G.Sapp).
3-3-IND8 (3:21) D.Davis left end for 8 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
K.Brown extra point is GOOD, Center-B.Pittman, Holder-C.Stanley.
PENALTY on IND, Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards, enforced between downs.
IND 14 HOU 7, Plays: 14 Yards: 79 Possession: 8:07.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051023_IND@HOU

All i can do is shake my head at Dom Capers when i remember this.

And after that:

Houston Texans at 03:15
K.Brown kicks 65 yards from HST 35 to end zone, Touchback.
Indianapolis Colts at 03:15
1-10-IND20 (3:15) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass intended for B.Stokley INTERCEPTED by D.Robinson at IND 35. D.Robinson to IND 34 for 1 yard (B.Stokley).
Houston Texans at 03:08
1-10-IND34 (3:08) D.Davis up the middle to IND 31 for 3 yards (G.Brackett, R.Brock).
2-7-IND31 (2:27) D.Davis right tackle to IND 30 for 1 yard (D.Freeney).
3-6-IND30 (2:00) (Shotgun) D.Carr right end to IND 21 for 9 yards (N.Harper).
1-10-IND21 (1:19) D.Davis right guard to IND 12 for 9 yards (C.June).
2-1-IND12 (:43) D.Davis up the middle to IND 8 for 4 yards (G.Sapp).
1-8-IND8 (:37) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney for 8 yards, TOUCHDOWN. (3 yards after catch.)
K.Brown extra point is GOOD, Center-B.Pittman, Holder-C.Stanley.
IND 14 HOU 14, Plays: 6 Yards: 34 Possession: 2:38.

Its amazing how much Capers used DD

texan279
06-30-2006, 12:56 AM
Starting to doubt who? This thread has me totally confused...:hides:

TexansSeminole
06-30-2006, 01:06 AM
The player that was used 71% in two straight drives. It just seems to me that some people might have forgotton what a great back he is.

texan279
06-30-2006, 01:13 AM
The player that was used 71% in two straight drives. It just seems to me that some people might have forgotton what a great back he is.

Just because he is used a lot does not make him great. I have said it once and will say it again, Davis is a good, not great back. In the game you posted he had a whooping 98 yards on 28 carries for a whopping 3.5 YPC.

texan279
06-30-2006, 01:16 AM
On the first drive you posted he ran 11 times for 29 yards, and the second drive 4 carries for 17 yards, I guess we should watch out here comes the next Earl Campbell...

TexansSeminole
06-30-2006, 01:20 AM
Look at the play calling...look how many times he got ran in a row. Sometimes 4 times in a row. Thats the point.

texan279
06-30-2006, 01:24 AM
Look at the play calling...look how many times he got ran in a row. Sometimes 4 times in a row. Thats the point.

But you called him a great back...

TexansSeminole
06-30-2006, 01:48 AM
But you called him a great back...
Thats because he is :ok:

texan279
06-30-2006, 02:01 AM
Thats because he is :ok:

Not trying to dis your opinion, but to me a great back is a Priest Holmes, LaDanian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Edge James, or Clinton Portis. I just cannot put Davis into the same class of running back as these guys are in, and I do not think he will ever make it into that class IMO. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Davis sucks, I think he is a good running back, just not a great one.

HOU-TEX
06-30-2006, 09:41 AM
Not trying to dis your opinion, but to me a great back is a Priest Holmes, LaDanian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Edge James, or Clinton Portis. I just cannot put Davis into the same class of running back as these guys are in, and I do not think he will ever make it into that class IMO. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Davis sucks, I think he is a good running back, just not a great one.

He'll be a great back when he can accomplish what these guy's can for a FULL year. Until he can withhold the every down pounding of the NFL, he'll just be average. Don't get me wrong, I like him, but I think we need a faster and more durable back.:twocents:

fan no matter what
06-30-2006, 09:53 AM
i have to agree DD is not a great back but he is not a bad one either. i think if he can stay healthy he can more than carry the load for us
:redtowel:

Kaiser Toro
06-30-2006, 09:55 AM
DD has been a good value, but the jury is still out on whether he can be a true feature back on a playoff caliber team. Time will tell, and the time is soon to be here.

TheCD
06-30-2006, 09:57 AM
But you called him a great back...


The point is that ANY defense could keep a back down on yardage if they ran it 4 times in a row (and especially the fact that they KNEW we were gonna run it) and as much as we did.

The essence of the defense is to make an offense one-dimensional, usually by stopping the run game and forcing the other team to pass, and to aggressively attack the one-dimension that the team has left. If the offense is already essentially doing that for you, then that takes away half of the defense's job right there.

Vambo, the Marble Eye
06-30-2006, 10:07 AM
The point is that ANY defense could keep a back down on yardage if they ran it 4 times in a row (and especially the fact that they KNEW we were gonna run it) and as much as we did.

The essence of the defense is to make an offense one-dimensional, usually by stopping the run game and forcing the other team to pass, and to aggressively attack the one-dimension that the team has left. If the offense is already essentially doing that for you, then that takes away half of the defense's job right there.


Who are you? This is an insightful, lucid arguement. I agree with you.

Can you go a step further and say that BECAUSE the Texans offence sucked with the predictable result of 3 downs and out... that our defense lived on the field and by the 3rd game of the season our opponnents had 6 games "worth" of Texans defensive film to study?

texan279
06-30-2006, 10:14 AM
The point is that ANY defense could keep a back down on yardage if they ran it 4 times in a row (and especially the fact that they KNEW we were gonna run it) and as much as we did.

The essence of the defense is to make an offense one-dimensional, usually by stopping the run game and forcing the other team to pass, and to aggressively attack the one-dimension that the team has left. If the offense is already essentially doing that for you, then that takes away half of the defense's job right there.

Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.

TheOgre
06-30-2006, 10:20 AM
Is DD productive? Yes.

Is DD great (to date)? No.

TheOgre
06-30-2006, 10:21 AM
Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.

I'd like to see that broken down by quarters. Teams tend to pass a lot in the second half when they are down by 10+ points.

real
06-30-2006, 10:26 AM
DD is a good back...He's not exceptional.....I am a huge DD critic, but I think that with a good team around him he can definitely excell...He'll never be the type of back that can create things for himself..i.e, Tomlinson, Holmes, Barber, Bush...No I'm not saying he can't break tackles or make guys miss, because that would be ludicrous...What starting back in the leauge hasn't made someone miss or broken a tackle...BUT, the great backs can do one or the other exceptionaly well...With DD's lack of breakaway speed, average agility, and average tackle breaking ability, IMO ability wise he will never be a top ten back...Of course he can get the job done, but in order for him to be exceptional, he needs exceptional players around him...

texan279
06-30-2006, 10:29 AM
I'd like to see that broken down by quarters. Teams tend to pass a lot in the second half when they are down by 10+ points.

Most teams, Capers didn't though from what I remember, I may be wrong though.

real
06-30-2006, 10:31 AM
I don't understand why some label DD as great...IMO, ability wise he's average all around...

Hutch13
06-30-2006, 10:32 AM
Domanick Davis i dont think is a great runningback yet but in a few years i think he will be

Kaiser Toro
06-30-2006, 10:35 AM
I'd like to see that broken down by quarters. Teams tend to pass a lot in the second half when they are down by 10+ points.


DD's situational stats broken down many ways.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/player/splits/2005/395946

TheCD
06-30-2006, 11:24 AM
Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.


The point being made was not based on the season. It was based on the quarters/game. The season stats have no relavency to a defense who is facing a team that is obviously, at the current point in time, running the ball 70+% of the time.


And if you don't understand the one-dimensional angle, talk to a coach or look up basic defensive strategies. It is the most basic element of the defense. Obviously, if your opponent is only doing one thing, it is much easier to defend against that particular element. Thus, if you break them down and make them one dimensional, it is much easier to assure that you will have success.

Bobo
06-30-2006, 11:27 AM
I don't understand why some label DD as great...IMO, ability wise he's average all around...

Umm, he's great because he accomplished all he did on a very, very young team just a few years removed from its inaugural season.

texan279
06-30-2006, 11:40 AM
The point being made was not based on the season. It was based on the quarters/game. The season stats have no relavency to a defense who is facing a team that is obviously, at the current point in time, running the ball 70+% of the time.


And if you don't understand the one-dimensional angle, talk to a coach or look up basic defensive strategies. It is the most basic element of the defense. Obviously, if your opponent is only doing one thing, it is much easier to defend against that particular element. Thus, if you break them down and make them one dimensional, it is much easier to assure that you will have success.

If we were running the ball 70% of the at current points and times in the season, it would reflect on the stats at the end of the season. DD ran the ball 55 times in the 1st quarter, 73 times in the second quarter, 56 times in the third quarter, and 44 times in the fourth quarter. Carr threw the ball 74 times in the 1st quarter, 135 times in the second quarter, 113 times in the third quarter, and 98 times in the fourth quarter, I am not seeing where we ran the ball 70% of the time....

Porky
06-30-2006, 11:46 AM
If we were running the ball 70% of the at current points and times in the season, it would reflect on the stats at the end of the season. DD ran the ball 55 times in the 1st quarter, 73 times in the second quarter, 56 times in the third quarter, and 44 times in the fourth quarter. Carr threw the ball 74 times in the 1st quarter, 135 times in the second quarter, 113 times in the third quarter, and 98 times in the fourth quarter, I am not seeing where we ran the ball 70% of the time....


Sssh, try not to throw too many facts at them. You have to undertand, DD and Carr are both great, we just can't see it.

srstex
06-30-2006, 12:01 PM
Great, may be over stateing any of players right now, but DD has gotten us a 1000 yards a year ( okay almost 1000 last year ) and that has been the bench mark for as long as I can remember to being a very good back, not great, but certainly better than 60% of the backs out there.
Disclaimer: The opinions stated on this message is just that, my opinion, and are based solely on the hope that the Texans will kick some tail this year.

texan279
06-30-2006, 12:12 PM
Great, may be over stateing any of players right now, but DD has gotten us a 1000 yards a year ( okay almost 1000 last year ) and that has been the bench mark for as long as I can remember to being a very good back, not great, but certainly better than 60% of the backs out there.
Disclaimer: The opinions stated on this message is just that, my opinion, and are based solely on the hope that the Texans will kick some tail this year.

1200 yards rushing is the new 1000 yards rushing in the NFL. And FYI, there were 16 backs that rushed for 1000 yards last season, that is half of the starting backs in the NFL.

TheCD
06-30-2006, 02:09 PM
If we were running the ball 70% of the at current points and times in the season, it would reflect on the stats at the end of the season. DD ran the ball 55 times in the 1st quarter, 73 times in the second quarter, 56 times in the third quarter, and 44 times in the fourth quarter. Carr threw the ball 74 times in the 1st quarter, 135 times in the second quarter, 113 times in the third quarter, and 98 times in the fourth quarter, I am not seeing where we ran the ball 70% of the time....


Once again...the 70% of the time reflects THAT POINT IN TIME IN THAT PARTICULAR GAME NOT SEASON STATS.

In case you've never understood logic, go back and read what this thread is all about: DD (IN ONE PARTICULAR GAME) was used so much that him running became predictable to the defense, yet he still produced fairly well.

Look at the game that was posted...that is where the 70% came from...

It's not stats that confuse us...it's incoherent logic.

MorKnolle
06-30-2006, 02:19 PM
Look at the play calling...look how many times he got ran in a row. Sometimes 4 times in a row. Thats the point.

and that 1st half was the start of his knee problems last year which eventually led to him missing 5 games.

TexansSeminole
06-30-2006, 02:24 PM
What i was trying to explain to him earlier...but i was trying to have him figure out on his own.

Also, obviously he is not in the same mold as a LT...he has nowhere neer the speed or agility...but how about a guy like Seaun Alexander. He runs the same as DD, except is playing with more years under his belt, and had a good team for a couple of years now.

The part about the game where he was ran 70% of the time was like a remember that, wasn't that great type of thing. Not meant to be broken down so much.

I am excited about the future for DD, even though some of you doubt him to a degree, I believe he will be the biggest part of our running game for the next few years.

MorKnolle
06-30-2006, 02:27 PM
What i was trying to explain to him earlier...but i was trying to have him figure out on his own.

Also, obviously he is not in the same mold as a LT...he has nowhere neer the speed or agility...but how about a guy like Seaun Alexander. He runs the same as DD, except is playing with more years under his belt, and had a good team for a couple of years now.

The part about the game where he was ran 70% of the time was like a remember that, wasn't that great type of thing. Not meant to be broken down so much.

I am excited about the future for DD, even though some of you doubt him to a degree, I believe he will be the biggest part of our running game for the next few years.

DD is somewhat simlar to Shaun Alexander in running style and such, but Alexander is better than him in every facet of the game other than catching the ball (faster, more agile, better running power, etc.)

TexansSeminole
06-30-2006, 02:32 PM
I beleive they have the same amount of speed and agility...yet Alexander has much better vision (mostly off of experience), slightly better running power (probably in better football shape). Alexander is by far the better back,right now obviously.

I think Davis has great raw vision. Im not sure how Capers and Palmer drew up running plays because I rarely saw good lane last year, and he has done well.

Also, all these backs that were talked about earlier came from good teams. All teams that are good at all the facets of the football.

AFD1717
06-30-2006, 02:40 PM
Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.

I'm a fan of Davis and Carr, but quite a few of those "pass" plays were designed short passes to Davis which pretty much count as running plays in my book.

infantrycak
06-30-2006, 03:12 PM
1200 yards rushing is the new 1000 yards rushing in the NFL. And FYI, there were 16 backs that rushed for 1000 yards last season, that is half of the starting backs in the NFL.

And there are only 15 backs in NFL history who started their careers with two 1000 yd seasons--and all of those happened during the 16 game era (one was split--one season 14 games, the next 16 (by the way, only 1 of those failed to make the probowl during their career at least once)). IMO DD is very solid but not great--just pointing that out as he has had a rare start to his career and 1000 yds is not exactly as easy as tripping over your shoes even in the 16 game era.

Hardcore Texan
06-30-2006, 03:58 PM
I'm a fan of Davis and Carr, but quite a few of those "pass" plays were designed short passes to Davis which pretty much count as running plays in my book.


This is the point I was about to make, plus he missed what 5 games, I don't think Wells was used quite as much as DD.

I think DD will be much more productive this year because I think the offense will be improved all around. With more targets in the passing game (and an actual passing game to speak of), the defense will have to respect the threat of Moulds, AJ, and Putzier...that should open up the field a little bit.

Hardcore Texan
06-30-2006, 03:59 PM
And there are only 15 backs in NFL history who started their careers with two 1000 yd seasons--and all of those happened during the 16 game era (one was split--one season 14 games, the next 16 (by the way, only 1 of those failed to make the probowl during their career at least once). IMO DD is very solid but not great--just pointing that out as he has had a rare start to his career and 1000 yds is not exactly as easy as tripping over your shoes even in the 16 game era.


And if DD would have gotten a few more yards last year and got the 1000 for his first 3 years in the league he would have been in very elite company, all-time greats kinda of company.

HOU-TEX
06-30-2006, 04:02 PM
This is the point I was about to make, plus he missed what 5 games, I don't think Wells was used quite as much as DD.

I think DD will be much more productive this year because I think the offense will be improved all around. With more targets in the passing game (and an actual passing game to speak of), the defense will have to respect the threat of Moulds, AJ, and Putzier...that should open up the field a little bit.

I agree with everthing said here except DD being more productive. I think the RB position will be more productive, but I'm just not convinced that DD will be healthy for the season.:twocents:

Hardcore Texan
06-30-2006, 04:07 PM
I agree with everthing said here except DD being more productive. I think the RB position will be more productive, but I'm just not convinced that DD will be healthy for the season.:twocents:


I am hopeful DD will be healthier, but you are right and I agree if he is not healthy the whole season, we will still have good production from the rest of the stable.(maybe even Bennett)

HOU-TEX
06-30-2006, 04:12 PM
I am hopeful DD will be healthier, but you are right and I agree if he is not healthy the whole season, we will still have good production from the rest of the stable.(maybe even Bennett)

He'd be nice to have, but even the guys we have now should be ok. I'm kinda looking forward to seeing Lundy run the ball. Hopefullt he's quick hitting the line and cutting to the outside.

infantrycak
06-30-2006, 04:27 PM
I'm a fan of Davis and Carr, but quite a few of those "pass" plays were designed short passes to Davis which pretty much count as running plays in my book.

Prior to last season, Carr was interviewed and stated under Palmer none of the passes to DD were designed other than from the standpoint of having a safety valve. Never heard about Pendry. JMO the pass plays were for the most part designed to go somewhere else (i.e. playcallingwise were real pass plays) and ended up being dumps to DD.

AFD1717
06-30-2006, 04:55 PM
Prior to last season, Carr was interviewed and stated under Palmer none of the passes to DD were designed other than from the standpoint of having a safety valve. Never heard about Pendry. JMO the pass plays were for the most part designed to go somewhere else (i.e. playcallingwise were real pass plays) and ended up being dumps to DD.

Point taken.

TheCD
06-30-2006, 05:24 PM
I'm a fan of Davis and Carr, but quite a few of those "pass" plays were designed short passes to Davis which pretty much count as running plays in my book.


In the West Coast offense, these types of pass plays are generally a common substitue for running plays. Not sure if that was the idea the team was going for...but Steve Young has always said that's how they played when he was there...

TheOgre
06-30-2006, 05:31 PM
That is a key reason Roger Craig's pure rushing totals were often low, but his overall yardage was decent.

AFD1717
06-30-2006, 06:05 PM
In the West Coast offense, these types of pass plays are generally a common substitue for running plays. Not sure if that was the idea the team was going for...but Steve Young has always said that's how they played when he was there...

That was my point.

texan279
06-30-2006, 06:18 PM
Once again...the 70% of the time reflects THAT POINT IN TIME IN THAT PARTICULAR GAME NOT SEASON STATS.

In case you've never understood logic, go back and read what this thread is all about: DD (IN ONE PARTICULAR GAME) was used so much that him running became predictable to the defense, yet he still produced fairly well.

Look at the game that was posted...that is where the 70% came from...

It's not stats that confuse us...it's incoherent logic.

And this is what I posted on the first page of this thread in reference to the game posted...

On the first drive you posted he ran 11 times for 29 yards, and the second drive 4 carries for 17 yards, I guess we should watch out here comes the next Earl Campbell...

If you think those stats are "fairly well", I would hate to see a poor game.

TexanFan881
06-30-2006, 06:22 PM
I don't think it's that DD was that good, I just think it was the fact that we have over used him at different points in the game because of the weakness of our pass blocking.

TheCD
06-30-2006, 06:24 PM
If you think those stats are "fairly well", I would hate to see a poor game.

Once again...that is "fairly well" considering the defense knew what was coming and he still garnered 98 yards. In the NFL today, 100 yards is considered good no matter how many carries it took.

texan279
06-30-2006, 06:30 PM
And there are only 15 backs in NFL history who started their careers with two 1000 yd seasons--and all of those happened during the 16 game era (one was split--one season 14 games, the next 16 (by the way, only 1 of those failed to make the probowl during their career at least once)). IMO DD is very solid but not great--just pointing that out as he has had a rare start to his career and 1000 yds is not exactly as easy as tripping over your shoes even in the 16 game era.

This kind of helps prove my point, in the last 27 seasons 15 rookie backs have started their careers with back to back 1000 yard seasons, yet in football's first 52 seasons no rookie every did it. Seems to me it became easier to rush for 1000 yards after the 16 game schedule was implemented.

texan279
06-30-2006, 06:33 PM
Once again...that is "fairly well" considering the defense knew what was coming and he still garnered 98 yards. In the NFL today, 100 yards is considered good no matter how many carries it took.

98 yards on 28 carries? And so if I go out and get 100 yards on 150 attempts you would think those were good stats?

TheCD
06-30-2006, 06:37 PM
98 yards on 28 carries? And so if I go out and get 100 yards on 150 attempts you would think those were good stats?



Name how many times a team has run 150 plays in a single game in the history of the NFL. Exactly. 3.5 ypc is above average (although slightly) and by no means poor performance. If you remember, our line played poorly in all areas of the game last year, and that includes running the ball. I'd say that, considering the circumstances, he played FAIRLY WELL. The running back (and the quarterback as well, for that matter) can't do everything on their own...they need a little help.

CloakNNNdagger
06-30-2006, 06:39 PM
In the West Coast offense, these types of pass plays are generally a common substitue for running plays. Not sure if that was the idea the team was going for...but Steve Young has always said that's how they played when he was there...

88888888888888888

Carreer Rushing to Passing yards ratio:

Edgerri James ~3.2:1

Eddie George ~5:1

Domanick Davis ~2.5:1

Tiki Barber ~1.9

Roger Craig (Young's RB) ~1.6

TheCD
06-30-2006, 06:47 PM
Not quite sure what you're getting at Cloak...what point are you making, exactly?


Likewise, in another game, DD had 29 att for 153 yards, with a 5.3 ypc average against Baltimore. Is that the work of a supbar running back against a defense that ranked 5th in the NFL last year? I think not.


And just because DD hasn't produced the numbers that the other guys have doesn't mean he's not as good. An offensive line can make or break a runner's game.

Case in point: San Diego's game against Philadelphia last year. LT had 14 att for 7 (yes, SEVEN) yards, and a 0.4 ypc average for the game. Is that the marker of a "good" running back against a defense that ranked 23rd last year? I think not.

texan279
06-30-2006, 06:54 PM
Not quite sure what you're getting at Cloak...what point are you making, exactly?


Likewise, in another game, DD had 29 att for 153 yards, with a 5.3 ypc average against Baltimore. Is that the work of a supbar running back against a defense that ranked 5th in the NFL last year? I think not.


And just because DD hasn't produced the numbers that the other guys have doesn't mean he's not as good. An offensive line can make or break a runner's game.

Case in point: San Diego's game against Philadelphia last year. LT had 14 att for 7 (yes, SEVEN) yards, and a 0.4 ypc average for the game. Is that the marker of a "good" running back against a defense that ranked 23rd last year? I think not.

Just because DD had one good game against one good defense and LT had one bad game against a bad defense, it is not going to convince me that DD is an elite back...

CloakNNNdagger
06-30-2006, 06:59 PM
Not quite sure what you're getting at Cloak...what point are you making, exactly?


Likewise, in another game, DD had 29 att for 153 yards, with a 5.3 ypc average against Baltimore. Is that the work of a supbar running back against a defense that ranked 5th in the NFL last year? I think not.


And just because DD hasn't produced the numbers that the other guys have doesn't mean he's not as good. An offensive line can make or break a runner's game.

Case in point: San Diego's game against Philadelphia last year. LT had 14 att for 7 (yes, SEVEN) yards, and a 0.4 ypc average for the game. Is that the marker of a "good" running back against a defense that ranked 23rd last year? I think not.

I am agreeing with you.........and not dogging DD. With the classic West Coast Offenses, you do expect the low ratios similar to what you see produced by DD..............but if you look at the QB passing stats in such successful schemes, they are usually quite impressive and make up for the more modest rushing stats of their RB's. DD had respectable stats for such an offense with no compensation/compliment by Carr's passing numbers. This year, either DD's stats or Carr's stats have to markedly improve for us to be heading in the right direction.

texan279
06-30-2006, 07:01 PM
Not quite sure what you're getting at Cloak...what point are you making, exactly?


Likewise, in another game, DD had 29 att for 153 yards, with a 5.3 ypc average against Baltimore. Is that the work of a supbar running back against a defense that ranked 5th in the NFL last year? I think not.


And just because DD hasn't produced the numbers that the other guys have doesn't mean he's not as good. An offensive line can make or break a runner's game.

Case in point: San Diego's game against Philadelphia last year. LT had 14 att for 7 (yes, SEVEN) yards, and a 0.4 ypc average for the game. Is that the marker of a "good" running back against a defense that ranked 23rd last year? I think not.

Look at what else DD did throughout the season against bad defenses....

Against Buffalo 14 carries 48 yards 29th ranked defense
Against Seattle 18 carries 40 yards 17th ranked defense
Against Cleveland 29 carries 91 yards 16th ranked defense
Against KC 13 carries 57 yards 25th ranked defense
Against St Louis 25 carries 78 yards 30th ranked defense

TheCD
06-30-2006, 07:24 PM
Look at what else DD did throughout the season against bad defenses....

Against Buffalo 14 carries 48 yards 29th ranked defense
Against Seattle 18 carries 40 yards 17th ranked defense
Against Cleveland 29 carries 91 yards 16th ranked defense
Against KC 13 carries 57 yards 25th ranked defense
Against St Louis 25 carries 78 yards 30th ranked defense



I never even once considered or said he was an "elite" back. I just said that 98 yards in a game was a fairly good performance. 100 yards in a game is a good game no matter who you are.

Let me put it in perspective for you:

If you rush 28 times for 100 yards, for an average of 3.6 ypc in every game, then by the end of the season these are your stats:

448 att. for 1600 yards, (still) for an average of 3.5 yards per carry.

Say what you want, but regardless of how many times you carry the ball, 1600 yards is a good amount.

Thus, you see, 98 yards is still a good average for a single back.


The NFL average for rushing yards per game for a TEAM last year was 112. So, a single player garnering 98 yards (just 14 yards shy of the average) in a game is alright by me.

TexansSeminole
06-30-2006, 08:10 PM
I never even once considered or said he was an "elite" back. I just said that 98 yards in a game was a fairly good performance. 100 yards in a game is a good game no matter who you are.

Let me put it in perspective for you:

If you rush 28 times for 100 yards, for an average of 3.6 ypc in every game, then by the end of the season these are your stats:

448 att. for 1600 yards, (still) for an average of 3.5 yards per carry.

Say what you want, but regardless of how many times you carry the ball, 1600 yards is a good amount.

Thus, you see, 98 yards is still a good average for a single back.


The NFL average for rushing yards per game for a TEAM last year was 112. So, a single player garnering 98 yards (just 14 yards shy of the average) in a game is alright by me.

Id have to agree with that.

The Pencil Neck
06-30-2006, 11:25 PM
DD's situational stats broken down many ways.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/player/splits/2005/395946

Whoa. Last year, he played 11 games. In 3 of them he averaged less than 3.5 yards a carry (Seattle, St. Louis, and Buffalo). In the others, he had some great games where he was tearing off more then 5 yards per pop (Baltimore, Cincy, KC, and Tennessee). Against the Titans, he averaged 6.6 yards per carry in 2 games.

Personally, I think that IF he's healthy and in an offense that gives him a chance, he's going to become a great back. I want to see him actually in this offense before I hail him as the next coming of the Earl, though.

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2006, 01:01 AM
f you think those stats are "fairly well", I would hate to see a poor game.

18 attempts for 40 yards against Seattle. That was DD's worst game last season.

Or how about 17 attempts for 7 yards.... oh... wait... that was LaDanian Tomlinson.

Or how about Corey Dillon who had 4 games where he averaged less than 3 yards per carry.

But really, back in the day when a 1000 yard season meant something (way back when it was a 12 game season), you had to average 83.3 yards per game. 98 yards in a game for DD is fine. A 98 yard game is very good and nothing to sneeze at.

thunderkyss
07-01-2006, 01:04 AM
Not trying to dis your opinion, but to me a great back is a Priest Holmes, LaDanian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Edge James, or Clinton Portis. I just cannot put Davis into the same class of running back as these guys are in, and I do not think he will ever make it into that class IMO. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Davis sucks, I think he is a good running back, just not a great one.

Neither ShaunAlexander, Tiki Barber, or Priest Holmes had over 3000 yards their first 3 seasons in the NFL......

I pray that DD can come back healthy....... I hope to see what he can do behind a real Oline, with a real passing attack.......

texan279
07-01-2006, 01:38 AM
18 attempts for 40 yards against Seattle. That was DD's worst game last season.

Or how about 17 attempts for 7 yards.... oh... wait... that was LaDanian Tomlinson.

Or how about Corey Dillon who had 4 games where he averaged less than 3 yards per carry.

But really, back in the day when a 1000 yard season meant something (way back when it was a 12 game season), you had to average 83.3 yards per game. 98 yards in a game for DD is fine. A 98 yard game is very good and nothing to sneeze at.

Ok how about these games by DD
Against Buffalo 14 carries 48 yards
Against Seattle 18 carries 40 yards
Against Cleveland 29 carries 91 yards
Against KC 13 carries 57 yards
Against St Louis 25 carries 78 yards

How about these games by LT
21 carries 192 yards against the Giants
25 carries 134 yards against New England
31 carries for 140 yards against Oakland
25 carries for 107 yards against the Jets
25 carries for 184 yards against Washington
19 carries for 92 yards against Denver

Just because DD's worst game last season was better than LT's worst game means nothing. He had 3 games over 100 yards, and 2 of those were against the titans, whose defense was ranked 22nd against the rush last season, and the other against Baltimore which I will give him credit for.

texan279
07-01-2006, 01:54 AM
Neither ShaunAlexander, Tiki Barber, or Priest Holmes had over 3000 yards their first 3 seasons in the NFL......

I pray that DD can come back healthy....... I hope to see what he can do behind a real Oline, with a real passing attack.......

Shaun Alexander started one game his rookie season, and he has rushed for over 1100 yards in the 5 seasons since his rookie season, including 2 seasons with over 1600 yards rushing. Tiki Barber started 11 games total in his 1st 3 seasons, yet in his last 4 seasons he has rushed for over 1200 yards. Priest Holmes started in 17 games in his first 3 seasons, but in '01, '02, and '03 when he started in all games he rushed for over 1400 yards each of those 3 seasons, which in '02 he only played/started in 14 games and still got over 1400 yards and those 3 seasons are the only seasons he has started in at least half of the games for the season.

So let's add it up...

Alexander started started in 28 games and played in 48 games in his first 3 seasons and rushed for 1806 yards total. Tiki Barber started 11 games and played in 44 games his first 3 seasons and rushed for 935 yards total. Priest Holmes started in 17 games his first 3 seasons, played in 32 games his first 3 seasons, and DID NOT make ONE rushing attempt in his rookie season and rushed for 1514 yards. Davis has started in 36 games and played in 40 and rushed for 3195 yards his first 3 seasons.

Alexander - started in 28 games rushed for 1806 yards 32 TD's
Barber - started in 11 games rushed for 935 yards 3 TD's
Holmes - started in 17 games rushed for 1514 yards 8 TD's
Davis - started 36 games rushed for 3195 yards 23 TD's

Of course Davis will have more yards rushing his first 3 seasons, he started in 8 more games than Alexander, started in more than double the games Holmes started, and more than triple the games Barber started.

texan279
07-01-2006, 01:58 AM
Also, to even try and compare DD to Holmes, Barber, and Alexander at this point is nuts. Davis has not even had a season with over 1200 yards or a season where he can stay healthy and start all 16 games, both of which the other 3 have done...

thunderkyss
07-01-2006, 10:57 AM
Also, to even try and compare DD to Holmes, Barber, and Alexander at this point is nuts. Davis has not even had a season with over 1200 yards or a season where he can stay healthy and start all 16 games, both of which the other 3 have done...


At this point?? I'm comparing DD to those guys at their 3 year mark. They produced squat compared to DD............. Just wait, put DD on a good team, and he'll make those guys look like the chumps they are.

Of the three guys we are talking about, only Shaun Alexander went over 1200 yards, and was healthy for all three full seasons... their first three years....... you've got to stop comparing our three year running back to guys who've been in the league 5 or more years..... I don't doubt the really special guys, the LTs, the Emmit Smiths, the Barry Sanders, and Walter Paytons...... you know what you got in thier first three years....

but the other "great" backs...... Tiki, Holmes, LJ, Rikki Williams, Ron Dayne.....etc........ it takes a little time.....

Of course, he may never get the chance, since Capers done ran his knees to ****.......

I bet in the 3rd season of Shaun Alexanders career, or in Holmes 3rd year, or Barber's third year, you thought they weren't worth a damn.

Alexnder had one good year(1300 yards), and two piss poor years(one 1175, which is nothing by today's standards).........

Tiki Barber broke 500 yards once in three years....... he was available for 16 games 2 of the three years, and 12 games for the third....

& Priest Holmes was just injury prone........

IF DD had done all this on a team that was constently over .500, then I'd agree with you........ he's average at best, and won't ever produce much more than he has.

but on a team that has never been .500, a team with a week, inconsistant passing attack, a team with a conservative run on 1st & 2nd down mentality... you've just got to assume that he's got more to give.

I have to assume that you missed it, so I'll repeat it. you name the stakes. No excuses, no qualifiers. DD vs Jamal Anderson in 2006...... rushing yards vs rushing yards. I'm picking DD.

I honestly don't see how you've got David Carr going to the HOF, with the performance he's giving us.... a 4 year rookie...... and you've got DD slipping into oblivion. One was a #1 overall, who has not performed up to expectations........ the other a 4th round selection who has performed/produced well beyound all speculation..........

and this goes way beyound run blocking is different than pass blocking. We've had what 4 running backs in here prior to DD being named the starter..... none of them did squat......... those are avg running backs......... good but not great.

TheCD
07-01-2006, 12:19 PM
But for all we know we might have tapped out DD's potential and left him injury prone and unable to play an entire season.


I can see the potential for disaster in DD as easy and you fail to see the potential for success in Carr.



Give our guys a break, PLEASE. They're about to be placed in a system that will set every one of them up for success. All I ask is that we give our guys 2 more years before we start saying they need to leave. By then, Carr's contract will only have one more year left anyways, so let's just try SUPPORTING our team rather than criticizing the guys who have underperformed thus far.


The coach's (and media's) job is to criticize, that's why we're not paid millions of dollars a year.

texan279
07-01-2006, 03:30 PM
At this point?? I'm comparing DD to those guys at their 3 year mark. They produced squat compared to DD............. Just wait, put DD on a good team, and he'll make those guys look like the chumps they are.

Of the three guys we are talking about, only Shaun Alexander went over 1200 yards, and was healthy for all three full seasons... their first three years....... you've got to stop comparing our three year running back to guys who've been in the league 5 or more years..... I don't doubt the really special guys, the LTs, the Emmit Smiths, the Barry Sanders, and Walter Paytons...... you know what you got in thier first three years....

but the other "great" backs...... Tiki, Holmes, LJ, Rikki Williams, Ron Dayne.....etc........ it takes a little time.....

Of course, he may never get the chance, since Capers done ran his knees to ****.......

I bet in the 3rd season of Shaun Alexanders career, or in Holmes 3rd year, or Barber's third year, you thought they weren't worth a damn.

Alexnder had one good year(1300 yards), and two piss poor years(one 1175, which is nothing by today's standards).........

Tiki Barber broke 500 yards once in three years....... he was available for 16 games 2 of the three years, and 12 games for the third....

& Priest Holmes was just injury prone........

IF DD had done all this on a team that was constently over .500, then I'd agree with you........ he's average at best, and won't ever produce much more than he has.

but on a team that has never been .500, a team with a week, inconsistant passing attack, a team with a conservative run on 1st & 2nd down mentality... you've just got to assume that he's got more to give.

I have to assume that you missed it, so I'll repeat it. you name the stakes. No excuses, no qualifiers. DD vs Jamal Anderson in 2006...... rushing yards vs rushing yards. I'm picking DD.

I honestly don't see how you've got David Carr going to the HOF, with the performance he's giving us.... a 4 year rookie...... and you've got DD slipping into oblivion. One was a #1 overall, who has not performed up to expectations........ the other a 4th round selection who has performed/produced well beyound all speculation..........

and this goes way beyound run blocking is different than pass blocking. We've had what 4 running backs in here prior to DD being named the starter..... none of them did squat......... those are avg running backs......... good but not great.

Did you not post THIS in another thread?

running for 1000 yards is a big deal

And of course Davis got more yards than the other three, he started more games than all of them did in their first 3 seasons, Davis started more than double the games Holmes started in his 1st 3 seasons, more than triple the amount of games Barber started in his first 3 years, and 8 more games than Alexander started.

TheCD
07-01-2006, 05:20 PM
Did you not post THIS in another thread?



And of course Davis got more yards than the other three, he started more games than all of them did in their first 3 seasons, Davis started more than double the games Holmes started in his 1st 3 seasons, more than triple the amount of games Barber started in his first 3 years, and 8 more games than Alexander started.


Yes, 1000 yards is a big deal, but the supposed "benchmark" is now between 1200-1500 depending on who you ask.


I take it with a grain of salt, though, because stats don't really prove the measure of a player.

If LT rushed for only 950 yards and 5 touchdowns in 16 games or Peyton Manning threw only 15 td's in a full season, does that automatically make them a bad player? No. you might fail to see that Philip Rivers (or whomever the QB may be) threw for 4000 yards and 40 td's or Joseph Addai/Dominic Rhodes rushes for 2000 yards and 27 overall td's.

Of course, these aren't necessarily likely to happen, but you see what I mean.

texan279
07-01-2006, 06:23 PM
Yes, 1000 yards is a big deal, but the supposed "benchmark" is now between 1200-1500 depending on who you ask.


I take it with a grain of salt, though, because stats don't really prove the measure of a player.

If LT rushed for only 950 yards and 5 touchdowns in 16 games or Peyton Manning threw only 15 td's in a full season, does that automatically make them a bad player? No. you might fail to see that Philip Rivers (or whomever the QB may be) threw for 4000 yards and 40 td's or Joseph Addai/Dominic Rhodes rushes for 2000 yards and 27 overall td's.

Of course, these aren't necessarily likely to happen, but you see what I mean.

Go back and read my posts through this thread, I am not trying to say Davis is a bad player. The point I am trying to make is that Davis is a GOOD back not a GREAT back...

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2006, 10:16 PM
Just because DD's worst game last season was better than LT's worst game means nothing. He had 3 games over 100 yards, and 2 of those were against the titans, whose defense was ranked 22nd against the rush last season, and the other against Baltimore which I will give him credit for.

That wasn't the point.

You said that if someone thought a 98 yard game was an example of running fairly well (which it is), you'd hate to see examples of bad games. So, I showed you some examples of bad games.

The point was that a 98 yard rushing game is a very good game. Anything over about 80 yards a game is very good. Domanick hasn't been able to get the consistency that he needs to be a great back. He hasn't rushed for over 1300 yards in a season, yet. But part of that is how he has been used and another part of that has been his health. Hopefully, both of those will cease to be problems in the near future.

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2006, 10:21 PM
And of course Davis got more yards than the other three, he started more games than all of them did in their first 3 seasons, Davis started more than double the games Holmes started in his 1st 3 seasons, more than triple the amount of games Barber started in his first 3 years, and 8 more games than Alexander started.

Yeah. See. The point is that at this point in his career, DD was starting and these other guys weren't (or weren't as much). So, over the same periods of their careers, DD has been more productive.

texan279
07-01-2006, 10:52 PM
Yeah. See. The point is that at this point in his career, DD was starting and these other guys weren't (or weren't as much). So, over the same periods of their careers, DD has been more productive.

Holmes didn't start his first two seasons because Bam Morris was the starter for Baltimore at the time, Ricky Watters started ahead of Alexander for one season, Alexander started after the beginning of his second season, 3 different backs started in Barber's first 3 seasons for New York for whatever reason. Who has been here to challenge Davis for the starting spot? James Allen? Jonathon Wells? Tony Hollings? Stacey Mack? If I am not mistaken, James Allen and Stacey Mack no longer play in the NFL, so he has never had much competition. Sure, Davis has produced more in his first 3 seasons, but he played and started in more games than all of the other three backs.

thunderkyss
07-01-2006, 11:47 PM
But for all we know we might have tapped out DD's potential and left him injury prone and unable to play an entire season.


I can see the potential for disaster in DD as easy and you fail to see the potential for success in Carr.


I don't doubt David's potential for success..... I don't understand the no criticism of Carr thing we've got going on this MB........

Did you not post THIS in another thread?


ahh.... yes..... I should have used the :sarcasm: thing......... I do believe 1000 yards is a big deal, especially when it's back to back to almost back. you said 1000 yards ain't crap, so in his first three years, Alexander only had one good year, where DD had none.......

And of course Davis got more yards than the other three, he started more games than all of them did in their first 3 seasons, Davis started more than double the games Holmes started in his 1st 3 seasons, more than triple the amount of games Barber started in his first 3 years, and 8 more games than Alexander started.

Right, that's a different argument I'm trying to head off altogether.... the injury prone argument.....

trust me, get him healthy, put him on a good offense, 1400 yards easy.....

thunderkyss
07-01-2006, 11:56 PM
Go back and read my posts through this thread, I am not trying to say Davis is a bad player. The point I am trying to make is that Davis is a GOOD back not a GREAT back...


& I don't have a problem with that...... but you also say that Davis will never be a great back, even though his first three years were more productive than guys you agree are great backs...

So.... if DD was supposed to stop playing today, he won't be assured a place in the Hall of Fame, or even a place on the Houston Texans Ring of honor. I agree with that.

But the man's got heart, and a will to succeed, that is rare in the NFL....... it's been mentioned, that we may have ran the wheels off the poor guy already. I hope that is not the case.......

DD is not a great back, but he will be.................. if.....

wicked_wayz
07-02-2006, 12:19 AM
give DD the oline that shaun has and he'd produce the same numbers as shaun.....
shaun is great but he wouldn't produce as much yards if he had the oline that DD has dealt with

thunderkyss
07-02-2006, 12:35 AM
give DD the oline that shaun has and he'd produce the same numbers as shaun.....
shaun is great but he wouldn't produce as much yards if he had the oline that DD has dealt with

I honestly think it would've been about the same either way....... DD in Seattle, or Shaun in Houston.........

texan279
07-02-2006, 12:58 AM
give DD the oline that shaun has and he'd produce the same numbers as shaun.....
shaun is great but he wouldn't produce as much yards if he had the oline that DD has dealt with

So if we put Carr behind Indy's line and gave him Indy's WR's he would put up Manning like numbers?

texan279
07-02-2006, 01:00 AM
& I don't have a problem with that...... but you also say that Davis will never be a great back, even though his first three years were more productive than guys you agree are great backs...

So.... if DD was supposed to stop playing today, he won't be assured a place in the Hall of Fame, or even a place on the Houston Texans Ring of honor. I agree with that.

But the man's got heart, and a will to succeed, that is rare in the NFL....... it's been mentioned, that we may have ran the wheels off the poor guy already. I hope that is not the case.......

DD is not a great back, but he will be.................. if.....

Sure he produced more, but he played in more games. And look at Alexander's TD total compared to DD's in 8 less games started.
Alexander - started in 28 games rushed for 1806 yards 32 TD's
Barber - started in 11 games rushed for 935 yards 3 TD's
Holmes - started in 17 games rushed for 1514 yards 8 TD's
Davis - started 36 games rushed for 3195 yards 23 TD's

TexansLucky13
07-02-2006, 01:49 AM
I remember that game clearly. I do believe that Mathis got one of his two returns in the second quarter of that one. But that one game, in itself, made me hate the "voice of the Texans" guy on the radio. I apologize that I do not remember the name, he is not important enough to me for me to expend brain power.

He made this game sound like it was the worst performance the Texans have ever had. He completely undermined the accomplishments of Mathis, Robinson and DD and focused on the negatives instead. He neglected to talk about the fact that we were tied at halftime. He made me so angry and every time I think about it I want to spam his email. Grrrrrr.

TexansSeminole
07-02-2006, 12:58 PM
Go back and read my posts through this thread, I am not trying to say Davis is a bad player. The point I am trying to make is that Davis is a GOOD back not a GREAT back...

You are so obsessed with technicallities...

The people you are talking about are All-Stars...

Davis is very useful, therefor he is a great player.

wicked_wayz
07-02-2006, 09:04 PM
So if we put Carr behind Indy's line and gave him Indy's WR's he would put up Manning like numbers?

maybe, but how well do you think manning can play if he had the oline and one decent WR that most teams double up on that carr has had for the past four years

texan279
07-02-2006, 10:51 PM
You are so obsessed with technicallities...

The people you are talking about are All-Stars...

Davis is very useful, therefor he is a great player.

Sorry, but in my book, being useful does not translate into being great. I work with people who are useful workers, but not great workers. My piece of junk truck is useful, but not great, etc. And I am not obsessed with technicalities, there is a difference between a good player and a great player.

TexansLucky13
07-03-2006, 12:21 AM
Sorry, but in my book, being useful does not translate into being great.

From what I understand, you are trying to say that DD is not a "great" RB, but could be if he were more durable?

If that is true, I agree. He is injured too often to be put in the same league as LT, Marshall Faulk, Edge, and others.

Now, if he can stay healthy all year.... we may have ourselves a contender.

P.S.- Either way, we have an above-average RB core. I'm excited to think about seeing Antowain Smith playing for the Texans, and it would be awesome to watch him carry the ball for us. Morency is a proven backup and I think he will fill in perfectly when called upon.

HOU-TEX
07-03-2006, 09:09 AM
From what I understand, you are trying to say that DD is not a "great" RB, but could be if he were more durable?

If that is true, I agree. He is injured too often to be put in the same league as LT, Marshall Faulk, Edge, and others.

Now, if he can stay healthy all year.... we may have ourselves a contender.

P.S.- Either way, we have an above-average RB core. I'm excited to think about seeing Antowain Smith playing for the Texans, and it would be awesome to watch him carry the ball for us. Morency is a proven backup and I think he will fill in perfectly when called upon.

That is a big IF! It hasn't happened yet, so what would make anyone think it would be different this year. I think we should have multiple backs running the ball. DD has obviously not been able to handle the every down beatings of the NFL. So let's mix it up a little by rotating Smith, Lundy and maybe Morency. It would be fresh legs on the field.:twocents:

Morency, IMO, hasn't proven jack! What has he done? I remember the Cardinals game I went to last year, he had a nice run for a TD and was flagged for taunting I think. So to me that hasn't been very impressive.:brickwall

thunderkyss
07-03-2006, 11:34 AM
From what I understand, you are trying to say that DD is not a "great" RB, but could be if he were more durable?

If that is true, I agree. He is injured too often to be put in the same league as LT, Marshall Faulk, Edge, and others.

Now, if he can stay healthy all year.... we may have ourselves a contender.

P.S.- Either way, we have an above-average RB core. I'm excited to think about seeing Antowain Smith playing for the Texans, and it would be awesome to watch him carry the ball for us. Morency is a proven backup and I think he will fill in perfectly when called upon.

DDs production his first three years, are right in line with LT, Faulk, Edge, and others.... but he was on teams, that have been worse all around, than all the teams of those guys.....

Total Yards, Games played, YPC, etc.....

For some reason people want to believe Larry Johnson, Priest Holmes, Tiki Barber, Warrick Dunn, whoever........ were proBowlers from Day1, and they weren't. They couldn't even crack the starting line-up, and one guy was even accused of wearing a diaper.........

Ronnie Brown?? Cadillac Williams?? where they at?? DDs rookie year on a second year expansion team, was better than theirs........ and they both got hurt their rookie year...... and Cadillac started for 14 games and barely cracked 1000 yards...... Is Caddy ever going to be great?? I bet you think he will. Even though he did what he did on a playoff caliber team.

It's easy to judge talent when you look backwards, which is what some people are doing........ Tiki Barber is great....... Priest Holmes is great..... Larry Johnson is great....

TexansSeminole
07-03-2006, 03:25 PM
Sorry, but in my book, being useful does not translate into being great. I work with people who are useful workers, but not great workers. My piece of junk truck is useful, but not great, etc. And I am not obsessed with technicalities, there is a difference between a good player and a great player.

There is also a difference in your POS truck, and the national football league. :twocents:

real
07-05-2006, 09:42 AM
Im sorry guys, but I just don't understand how you can label DD as a "great" back...He's good...But he's far from great...I don't see DD as the type of back that strikes fear into opponents...I doubt teams gameplan for him...I doubt defenders are worried about him when hes in the game...Im not saying they look at him as a scrub...I just don't think he can be classified as great...Honestly I look for DD to be replaced in the next two years...

HOU-TEX
07-05-2006, 10:05 AM
Im sorry guys, but I just don't understand how you can label DD as a "great" back...He's good...But he's far from great...I don't see DD as the type of back that strikes fear into opponents...I doubt teams gameplan for him...I doubt defenders are worried about him when hes in the game...Im not saying they look at him as a scrub...I just don't think he can be classified as great...Honestly I look for DD to be replaced in the next two years...

I agree, due to injuries he probably won't last 2 more years. I think this year's hopefully going to take more load off of him going with rotating backs. I wish we could get a back like the one in your avatar:logo:

TexansSeminole
07-05-2006, 01:42 PM
We'll see this season :).:redtowel:

thunderkyss
07-05-2006, 06:23 PM
Im sorry guys, but I just don't understand how you can label DD as a "great" back...He's good...But he's far from great...I don't see DD as the type of back that strikes fear into opponents...I doubt teams gameplan for him...I doubt defenders are worried about him when hes in the game...Im not saying they look at him as a scrub...I just don't think he can be classified as great...Honestly I look for DD to be replaced in the next two years...


Ok, as of now, I'm not saying he is great......... but that he has what it takes to be great......... simply because his first three years are comparable to many guys we all agree are great.....

When Marshall was with the Colts, he was just another 'back.......... when he started playing with the Rams, he was one of the greatest..... I think it is easy to draw the comparison.

What I find hard to believe, is that people on this board can look at one underperformer on this team, and have no doubt that he'll be a great player in this league...... Yet DD is one of the few who have produced on our team, and his greatness is in serious doubt..... heck, they'll dump him for the flavor of the month, on any given month......... especially in April..


:redtowel:

:hunter:

hollywood_texan
07-05-2006, 06:44 PM
Ok, as of now, I'm not saying he is great......... but that he has what it takes to be great......... simply because his first three years are comparable to many guys we all agree are great.....

When Marshall was with the Colts, he was just another 'back.......... when he started playing with the Rams, he was one of the greatest..... I think it is easy to draw the comparison.

What I find hard to believe, is that people on this board can look at one underperformer on this team, and have no doubt that he'll be a great player in this league, ...... Yet DD is one of the few who have produced on our team, and his greatness is in serious doubt..... heck, they'll dump him for the flavor of the month, on any given month......... especially in April..


:redtowel:

:hunter:

I wonder whom thunderkyss is referring to?

Could it be...

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/hollywood_texan/david_carr1.jpg

You make a valid point.

The only things that have held Davis back are injuries and the team he has been playing on, which are really beyond his control. If he can stay healthly, Carr lives up to expectations, and Kubiak is as good as everyone thinks, Davis should become a very good back, and maybe even great, something like an Emmitt Smith.

Before anyone hammers me, all is ask is for the same slack you cut Carr. No more, no less.:cool:

TwinSisters
07-05-2006, 06:55 PM
Before anyone hammers me, all is ask is for the same slack you cut Carr. No more, no less.:cool:

but you're not David Carr?

:stirpot:

EDIT:

Also why is there an 8 on his wristband? Does he forget what number he is or something?? What's up with that?

Wolf
07-05-2006, 08:39 PM
IMO what makes the difference between a great back and a good back

IMO DD is a very solid back. He runs hard. He keeps his feet churning and I am a fan of DD, BUT

Great backs have the ability to make people miss and then take it to the next level. Great backs can either pound a defense and wear them out and in the forth quarter break it.

DD I love his style, but he isn't a back that has breakaway speed and doesn't put the pressure on a defense (enough pressure) to specifically game plan around him.

Now with some real blocking on the OL, maybe with the blocking we can get him to the next level of the defense.

Brandon420tx
07-05-2006, 09:52 PM
I wanna see DD go back to the way he played as a rookie, bouncing off of would-be tacklers, I remember the commentators referring to him as a pinball.

TexansSeminole
07-05-2006, 11:13 PM
He should be getting back to that this year.

texan279
07-05-2006, 11:37 PM
Ok, as of now, I'm not saying he is great......... but that he has what it takes to be great......... simply because his first three years are comparable to many guys we all agree are great.....

I guess going by that logic, Carr will be great also...Carr had a better completion percentage than all of these guys except Aikman in his third season and more passing yards in his 3rd season than everyone except Elway and Namath...


David Carr '02-'04

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 2002 hou | 16 | 233 444 52.5 25925.8 9 15 | 59 282 3 |
| 2003 hou | 12 | 167 295 56.6 2013 6.8 9 13 | 27 151 2 |
| 2004 hou | 16 | 286 467 61.2 3539 7.6 16 14 | 72 303 0 |

John Elway '83-'85

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1983 den | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |
| 1984 den | 15 | 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 | 56 237 1 |
| 1985 den | 16 | 327 605 54.0 3891 6.4 22 23 | 51 253 0 |

Terry Bradshaw '70-'72

| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1970 pit | 13 | 83 218 38.1 1410 6.5 6 24 | 32 233 1 |
| 1971 pit | 14 | 203 373 54.4 2259 6.1 13 22 | 53 247 5 |
| 1972 pit | 14 | 147 308 47.7 1887 6.1 12 12 | 58 346 7 |

Randall Cunningham '85-'87

| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1985 phi | 6 | 34 81 42.0 548 6.8 1 8 | 29 205 0 |
| 1986 phi | 15 | 111 209 53.1 1391 6.7 8 7 | 66 540 5 |
| 1987 phi | 12 | 223 406 54.9 2786 6.9 23 12 | 76 505 3 |

Troy Aikman '89-'91

| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1989 dal | 11 | 155 293 52.9 1749 6.0 9 18 | 38 302 0 |
| 1990 dal | 15 | 226 399 56.6 2579 6.5 11 18 | 40 172 1 |
| 1991 dal | 12 | 237 363 65.3 2754 7.6 11 10 | 16 5 1 |

Steve McNair '95-'97

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1995 hou | 6 | 41 80 51.2 569 7.1 3 1 | 11 38 0 |
| 1996 hou | 10 | 88 143 61.5 1197 8.4 6 4 | 31 169 2 |
| 1997 ten | 16 | 216 415 52.0 2665 6.4 14 13 | 101 674 8 |

Warren Moon '84-'86

| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1984 hou | 16 | 259 450 57.6 3338 7.4 12 14 | 58 211 1 |
| 1985 hou | 14 | 200 377 53.1 2709 7.2 15 19 | 39 130 0 |
| 1986 hou | 15 | 256 488 52.5 3489 7.1 13 26 | 42 157 2 |

Joe Namath '65-'67

| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1965 nyj | 13 | 164 340 48.2 2220 6.5 18 15 | 8 19 0 |
| 1966 nyj | 14 | 232 471 49.3 3379 7.2 19 27 | 6 42 2 |
| 1967 nyj | 14 | 258 491 52.5 4007 8.2 26 28 | 6 14 0 |

Phil Simms '79-'81

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1979 nyg | 12 | 134 265 50.6 1743 6.6 13 14 | 29 166 1 |
| 1980 nyg | 13 | 193 402 48.0 2321 5.8 15 19 | 36 190 1 |
| 1981 nyg | 10 | 172 316 54.4 2031 6.4 11 9 | 19 42 0 |

Fran Tarkenton '61-'63

| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1961 min | 14 | 157 280 56.1 1997 7.1 18 17 | 56 308 5 |
| 1962 min | 14 | 163 329 49.5 2595 7.9 22 25 | 41 361 2 |
| 1963 min | 14 | 170 297 57.2 2311 7.8 15 15 | 28 162 1 |

Steve Young '85-'87

| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1985 tam | 5 | 72 138 52.2 935 6.8 3 8 | 40 233 1 |
| 1986 tam | 14 | 195 363 53.7 2282 6.3 8 13 | 74 425 5 |
| 1987 sfo | 8 | 37 69 53.6 570 8.3 10 0 | 26 190 1 |

TexansSeminole
07-06-2006, 12:06 AM
Nice, well i think the major concernes from Carr are his sometimes bad instincts, we'll call it inconsistancy. His inability to avoid the rush.

But he seems to get it done in the stat column, I dont expect bad things from Carr this season, he has ability, lets see if this new coach can utilize it.

TwinSisters
07-06-2006, 12:35 AM
Simms and Bradshaw are pretty good evidence to submit to justify a case of Carr-Love. The rest of the guys on the list were already blowing it up in some capacity or another, so Carr cannot hold up to them.

Maybe McNair too ( but I think he was doing alright by his 4th season ).

The completion percentage stuff and yards are out of whack due to the changes in rules, number of games, etc. So in that light... Joe Namath 4,000 yards, hot daing!!

texan279
07-06-2006, 12:48 AM
Simms and Bradshaw are pretty good evidence to submit to justify a case of Carr-Love. The rest of the guys on the list were already blowing it up in some capacity or another, so Carr cannot hold up to them.

Maybe McNair too ( but I think he was doing alright by his 4th season ).

The completion percentage stuff and yards are out of whack due to the changes in rules, number of games, etc. So in that light... Joe Namath 4,000 yards, hot daing!!

No Carr love, just trying to prove a point. The post as a whole was sarcasm. TK said that DD has what it takes to be great because his first 3 seasons are comparable to other great backs. So I posted Carr's 1st 3 seasons compared to other QB's 1st 3 seasons, so if he thinks DD will be great based on stats alone, then based on his way of thinking Carr will too be great. Which no one knows whether either will do anything spectacular in the NFL at this point...

TwinSisters
07-06-2006, 01:31 AM
o yeah I understand what you are doing or saying Tex. I think I agree too.

( that's funny typing that here! Tex. @*&%@$ everybody is Tex! no wonder you used a number! )
---

But still Simms and Bradshaw make a good solid case for supporting Carr. Once Bradshaw got a crew around him, he didn't lose games. He won games with the threat of his arm and his defense afforded him lots of room to make mistakes and take risks. ( I will make this very clear though... Carr is nothing like Bradshaw from everything I have seen so far )
---

I don't think Davis is that good... HOWEVER I do believe he has performed better then Carr has in 3 years compared to Carr's 4. I say this because Davis ranked in the top ten of the 2004 NFL in a few categories, while Carr has never ranked in the top ten in any major category.

I don't pay much attention to completion percentage for various reasons... one important one would be that you should be throwing the ball away instead of taking a sack. The second one is that a QB might have thrown a safe short pass on 2nd/3rd and long when they should have gambled for the risky long WR for the first down.

Thus somebody might have a higher % and that would be a bad thing.

Here's the chart I was using to compare the two with the rest of the NFL
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/leaderindex.htm

( The Hidden Game of Football is a good book to pick up too )

texan279
07-06-2006, 01:53 AM
o yeah I understand what you are doing or saying Tex. I think I agree too.

( that's funny typing that here! Tex. @*&%@$ everybody is Tex! no wonder you used a number! )
---

But still Simms and Bradshaw make a good solid case for supporting Carr. Once Bradshaw got a crew around him, he didn't lose games. He won games with the threat of his arm and his defense afforded him lots of room to make mistakes and take risks. ( I will make this very clear though... Carr is nothing like Bradshaw from everything I have seen so far )
---

I don't think Davis is that good... HOWEVER I do believe he has performed better then Carr has in 3 years compared to Carr's 4. I say this because Davis ranked in the top ten of the 2004 NFL in a few categories, while Carr has never ranked in the top ten in any major category.

I don't pay much attention to completion percentage for various reasons... one important one would be that you should be throwing the ball away instead of taking a sack. The second one is that a QB might have thrown a safe short pass on 2nd/3rd and long when they should have gambled for the risky long WR for the first down.

Thus somebody might have a higher % and that would be a bad thing.

Here's the chart I was using to compare the two with the rest of the NFL
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/leaderindex.htm

( The Hidden Game of Football is a good book to pick up too )

OK, I see what you are saying now and understand your first post better now, I think we both misunderstood each other's posts, lol. Sometimes for me it is hard to interpret things out of posts on the net.

real
07-06-2006, 08:16 AM
Ok, as of now, I'm not saying he is great......... but that he has what it takes to be great......... simply because his first three years are comparable to many guys we all agree are great.....

When Marshall was with the Colts, he was just another 'back.......... when he started playing with the Rams, he was one of the greatest..... I think it is easy to draw the comparison.

What I find hard to believe, is that people on this board can look at one underperformer on this team, and have no doubt that he'll be a great player in this league...... Yet DD is one of the few who have produced on our team, and his greatness is in serious doubt..... heck, they'll dump him for the flavor of the month, on any given month......... especially in April..


I understand what you are saying....But personally I am not a stat guy...I tend to watch players and judge whether or not said player is good, great, or horrible...No doubt that with the right system, supposrting cast, and staying injury free he can put up some helluva stats...BUT I don't think DD is a great back...He's expendable...He doesn't do any one thing extremely well, he doesn't have blazing speed, he can't consistently run through defenders...And the stat about his first three years in the leauge compared to other great backs, IMO is misleading...Don't get me wrong I like DD alot, but I just don't think he has the skill set to be labled a "great" back...Maybe if he had a little durability he could make up for what he lacks in skill and ability...But IMO, he will never be a solid back that we can count on for the whole season...for multiple seasons...

thunderkyss
07-06-2006, 09:03 AM
I guess going by that logic, Carr will be great also...Carr had a better completion percentage than all of these guys except Aikman in his third season and more passing yards in his 3rd season than everyone except Elway and Namath...


David Carr '02-'04

John Elway '83-'85

Terry Bradshaw '70-'72

Randall Cunningham '85-'87

Troy Aikman '89-'91

Steve McNair '95-'97

Warren Moon '84-'86

Joe Namath '65-'67

Phil Simms '79-'81

Fran Tarkenton '61-'63

Steve Young '85-'87


Ok........ try to follow me.... Your argument, that 1000 yards in one year is hardly anything to brag about in the modern era...... That anyone can, and everyone has done it..... paraphrasing a little bit.

So, I compare DD to the guys you think are great, in the modern era.... guys who are DD's Peers..... guys in the game today. Their first three years was something like 6 years ago at the most.

And you bring me Fran Tarkenton from 1961?? What are you smoking?? If this were 1979, it wouldn't be a big deal to hang on to Carr for a few more years.... it would be the norm for quarterbacks.

Even if this were 1995, and we drafted Carr as a project..... we'd sit him on the bench for two years, and bring him along slowly...... had we picked him #1 overall..... that wouldn't be the case.

How many starting QBs have come and gone since 2002??

thunderkyss
07-06-2006, 09:12 AM
No Carr love, just trying to prove a point. The post as a whole was sarcasm. TK said that DD has what it takes to be great because his first 3 seasons are comparable to other great backs. So I posted Carr's 1st 3 seasons compared to other QB's 1st 3 seasons, so if he thinks DD will be great based on stats alone, then based on his way of thinking Carr will too be great. Which no one knows whether either will do anything spectacular in the NFL at this point...


Where are you getting stats alone from??

DD posted those numbers on a bad team, none of them were easy. He faught for each and every one of them. The man that he has the heart, and the will of a champion...... but because he doesn't have breakaway speed, or "moves" he'll never be special??

whatever...

texan279
07-06-2006, 09:20 AM
Ok........ try to follow me.... Your argument, that 1000 yards in one year is hardly anything to brag about in the modern era...... That anyone can, and everyone has done it..... paraphrasing a little bit.

So, I compare DD to the guys you think are great, in the modern era.... guys who are DD's Peers..... guys in the game today. Their first three years was something like 6 years ago at the most.

And you bring me Fran Tarkenton from 1961?? What are you smoking?? If this were 1979, it wouldn't be a big deal to hang on to Carr for a few more years.... it would be the norm for quarterbacks.

Even if this were 1995, and we drafted Carr as a project..... we'd sit him on the bench for two years, and bring him along slowly...... had we picked him #1 overall..... that wouldn't be the case.



How many starting QBs have come and gone since 2002??

I could go back that far and find backs who had a better first 3 seasons than DD if you want....

thunderkyss
07-06-2006, 09:22 AM
Don't get me wrong I like DD alot, but I just don't think he has the skill set to be labled a "great" back...Maybe if he had a little durability he could make up for what he lacks in skill and ability...But IMO, he will never be a solid back that we can count on for the whole season...for multiple seasons...


This get's me going the most.... in the same three years, he's started as many games, if not more than Priest Holmes, Jamaal Lewis, Fred Taylor, Stephen Davis, Edgerin James, Duece McCallister, and Rikki Williams.

Both Ronnie Brown, and Caddilac Williams aren't looking to good right now from a durability standpoint either.

AFD1717
07-06-2006, 09:22 AM
I wanna see DD go back to the way he played as a rookie, bouncing off of would-be tacklers, I remember the commentators referring to him as a pinball.
That would require him being healthy. I really like the guy, but I'm afraid we may never see that again...

texan279
07-06-2006, 09:23 AM
Where are you getting stats alone from??

DD posted those numbers on a bad team, none of them were easy. He faught for each and every one of them. The man that he has the heart, and the will of a champion...... but because he doesn't have breakaway speed, or "moves" he'll never be special??

whatever...

It's not about stats? I don't think DD will be special because he is not an all around back. Sure he can catch balls out of the backfield and he fights for the extra yard or two, but he lacks speed and he is not that great of a blocker.

real
07-06-2006, 09:27 AM
Where are you getting stats alone from??

DD posted those numbers on a bad team, none of them were easy. He faught for each and every one of them. The man that he has the heart, and the will of a champion...... but because he doesn't have breakaway speed, or "moves" he'll never be special??

whatever...

Heart and desire go a long way....But not long enough of a way to make him great...He is good....He hasn't proven to be great, and I don't see how you can argue that...We can argue potential all day long, You can look at stats and compare his first three years, but IMO that really doesn't do the players justice...You have to look at Games played, rush attemptsthe situations that they ran in...there are just too many factors to compare numbers alone......And personally I don't think DD has performed much better than Carr considering all factors...IMO Carr actually has more potential to be great than does DD...He certainly has more talent...And we are calling DD great, and he doesn't even block well...in fact his pass protection is poor...I am not sure what screams great about DD...I hope he proves me wrong, but I seriously doubt it...

real
07-06-2006, 09:31 AM
This get's me going the most.... in the same three years, he's started as many games, if not more than Priest Holmes, Jamaal Lewis, Fred Taylor, Stephen Davis, Edgerin James, Duece McCallister, and Rikki Williams.

Both Ronnie Brown, and Caddilac Williams aren't looking to good right now from a durability standpoint either.

You are probably right about the amount of games that he has played compared to those other players...But all of those players mentioned are physically more talented than DD....They bring more to the games in which they play...My point was DD will have to do something to make up for his lack of physical prowess to be labled great..i.e stay healthy, stay consistent...IMO, He hasn't done anything that anyother starting back cant or hasn't done...so I think i reserve the right to hold on to that greatness tag until he proves otherwise...

texan279
07-06-2006, 09:33 AM
This get's me going the most.... in the same three years, he's started as many games, if not more than Priest Holmes, Jamaal Lewis, Fred Taylor, Stephen Davis, Edgerin James, Duece McCallister, and Rikki Williams.

Both Ronnie Brown, and Caddilac Williams aren't looking to good right now from a durability standpoint either.

Brown and Williams missed a total of 3 games last season. DD missed 5 games last season. Both Williams and Brown are participating in their team's offseason workouts, DD has been out 7 months because of a arthroscopic knee surgery...

real
07-06-2006, 09:37 AM
Brown and Williams missed a total of 3 games last season. DD missed 5 games last season. Both Williams and Brown are participating in their team's offseason workouts, DD has been out 7 months because of a arthroscopic knee surgery...

Thanks for the info...kinda blows a hole through his point

thunderkyss
07-06-2006, 10:04 AM
You are probably right about the amount of games that he has played compared to those other players...But all of those players mentioned are physically more talented than DD....They bring more to the games in which they play...My point was DD will have to do something to make up for his lack of physical prowess to be labled great..i.e stay healthy, stay consistent...IMO, He hasn't done anything that anyother starting back cant or hasn't done...so I think i reserve the right to hold on to that greatness tag until he proves otherwise...

again, not saying that he is great...... but that he will be.

I could go back that far and find backs who had a better first 3 seasons than DD if you want....

The point is I can find QBs with stats equal to, or better than Carr's, who are looking for a starting job in 2006.... some have no chance.... and I don't have to go back 6 years.

It's not about stats? I don't think DD will be special because he is not an all around back. Sure he can catch balls out of the backfield and he fights for the extra yard or two, but he lacks speed and he is not that great of a blocker.

We can't judge Carr as a QB, because the Offensive line has been pitiful to this point blocking....... But we know now, that DD sucks blocking behind a piss poor blocking OLine..... yeah..... Okay
Brown and Williams missed a total of 3 games last season. DD missed 5 games last season. Both Williams and Brown are participating in their team's offseason workouts, DD has been out 7 months because of a arthroscopic knee surgery...

And Priest Holmes missed 9....... what are you saying??


Thanks for the info...kinda blows a hole through his point

Not really...... as my point is and always has been that it is normal for running backs to experience health issues in their first three years..... that's no reason to call DD injury prone.

what did you think my point was??

TexansSeminole
07-06-2006, 10:05 AM
I understand what you are saying....But personally I am not a stat guy...I tend to watch players and judge whether or not said player is good, great, or horrible...No doubt that with the right system, supposrting cast, and staying injury free he can put up some helluva stats...BUT I don't think DD is a great back...He's expendable...He doesn't do any one thing extremely well, he doesn't have blazing speed, he can't consistently run through defenders...And the stat about his first three years in the leauge compared to other great backs, IMO is misleading...Don't get me wrong I like DD alot, but I just don't think he has the skill set to be labled a "great" back...Maybe if he had a little durability he could make up for what he lacks in skill and ability...But IMO, he will never be a solid back that we can count on for the whole season...for multiple seasons...

How do u know that it is "misleading"?

So far it hasnt led to anything except this offseason. We will see this season.

real
07-06-2006, 10:12 AM
How do u know that it is "misleading"?

So far it hasnt led to anything except this offseason. We will see this season.

I didn't say i know it was misleading, becauses I haven't taken the time to actually look at the statistics for myself, nor will I take the time to do so...I am just making a general statement about stats period...Stats can be misleading...such as a guy taking one shot his whole career and making it...he shoots 100%...does that make him better than some of the all time greats....Just using that as a wacky example to show you cant always use stats to determine "greatness" as far as players are concerned....I pose a question to who ever thinks DD is a great back or has the potential to do so...Who is the Greatest running back of all time...??? Emmit, because of his record...or barry, or brown, or earl, peyton...ect.....???

texan279
07-06-2006, 10:14 AM
The point is I can find QBs with stats equal to, or better than Carr's, who are looking for a starting job in 2006.... some have no chance.... and I don't have to go back 6 years.





And Priest Holmes missed 9....... what are you saying??


I'd like you to name a few QB's who had equal or better stats than Carr in his first 4 season who are looking for starting jobs right now. I could name several QB's who have played worse than Carr and who are starting QB's right now. And as far as Priest Holmes, I didn't say a word about him, you mentioned Williams and Brown and I responded to that.

TexansSeminole
07-06-2006, 10:16 AM
I didn't say i know it was misleading, becauses I haven't taken the time to actually look at the statistics for myself, nor will I take the time to do so...I am just making a general statement about stats period...Stats can be misleading...such as a guy taking one shot his whole career and making it...he shoots 100%...does that make him better than some of the all time greats....Just using that as a wacky example to show you cant always use stats to determine "greatness" as far as players are concerned....I pose a question to who ever thinks DD is a great back or has the potential to do so...Who is the Greatest running back of all time...??? Emmit, because of his record...or barry, or brown, or earl, peyton...ect.....???

Depends on what type of running back.

HOU-TEX
07-06-2006, 10:28 AM
I didn't say i know it was misleading, becauses I haven't taken the time to actually look at the statistics for myself, nor will I take the time to do so...I am just making a general statement about stats period...Stats can be misleading...such as a guy taking one shot his whole career and making it...he shoots 100%...does that make him better than some of the all time greats....Just using that as a wacky example to show you cant always use stats to determine "greatness" as far as players are concerned....I pose a question to who ever thinks DD is a great back or has the potential to do so...Who is the Greatest running back of all time...??? Emmit, because of his record...or barry, or brown, or earl, peyton...ect.....???

Earl "freakin" Cambell baby!!!:yahoo:

real
07-06-2006, 10:30 AM
........Year G GS Att Yds
DD.....2003 14 10 238 1031
.........2004 15 15 302 1188
.........2005 11 11 230 976

Edge....1999 16 16 369 1553
............2000 16 16 387 1709
............2001 6 6 151 662

Barber.... 1997 12 6 136 511
.............1998 16 4 52 166
.............1999 16 1 62 258

courtesy of nfl.com

First three years of their careers...

Edge Played in less games but still amassed more yardage than DD...and his first two seasons he started every game...sat out ten games his third year...but was only a mere 300 yards behind him....IMHO, in no way shape form or fashion does DD =, almost=, some of the "great" running backs that the NFL has brought to us...in fact IMO, it does some of the "great" running backs an injustice to be compared or thought on as the same level with such a run of the mill average RB...

South Texan
07-06-2006, 10:45 AM
Earl "freakin" Cambell baby!!!:yahoo:

He may not have been the greatest ever, but he sure was fun to watch:

QB takes the snap and hands off to Earl
9 to 11 defenders pile on Earl
The pile gains 5 to 15 yards.:redtowel:

trane
07-06-2006, 11:07 AM
some of the "great" running backs that the NFL has brought to us...in fact IMO, it does some of the "great" running backs an injustice to be compared or thought on as the same level with such a run of the mill average RB...[/QUOTE]

That clip of Earl is greatness. Earl Campbell is the only "great" running back Houston's franchises has ever had. Sure we have had plenty of good backs like Rozier, Pinkett, Lo White, even Gary Brown had a good season and a half (not sure if we count Eddie George) but none of these will ever be in the Hall of Fame, can't remember if they even made the Pro Bowl. DD is a good back but he will never make the Pro Bowl or anything. So I concur that he is not a great or elite back.

Also, this may seem like a peculiar comment but: All great RB's have that signature highlight run(s) or a big game that demonstrated their greatness. DD has neither.

TexansSeminole
07-06-2006, 11:14 AM
That clip of Earl is greatness. Earl Campbell is the only "great" running back Houston's franchises has ever had. Sure we have had plenty of good backs like Rozier, Pinkett, Lo White, even Gary Brown had a good season and a half (not sure if we count Eddie George) but none of these will ever be in the Hall of Fame, can't remember if they even made the Pro Bowl. DD is a good back but he will never make the Pro Bowl or anything. So I concur that he is not a great or elite back.

Also, this may seem like a peculiar comment but: All great RB's have that signature highlight run(s) or a big game that demonstrated their greatness. DD has neither.

Ha, ima laugh at you guys when DD makes the ProBowl. Doubting a star on ur OWN team.

HOU-TEX
07-06-2006, 11:16 AM
He may not have been the greatest ever, but he sure was fun to watch:

QB takes the snap and hands off to Earl
9 to 11 defenders pile on Earl
The pile gains 5 to 15 yards.:redtowel:

Oh man, he was outstanding! I eventually started feeling sorry for the guys that tried tackling him. He was a punisher! Sadly, all that pounding eventually caught up to him though.

HOU-TEX
07-06-2006, 11:18 AM
Ha, ima laugh at you guys when DD makes the ProBowl. Doubting a star on ur OWN team.

The only thing I doubt about DD is his health. I'm not sure how much more he take.

thunderkyss
07-06-2006, 11:22 AM
I'd like you to name a few QB's who had equal or better stats than Carr in his first 4 season who are looking for starting jobs right now. I could name several QB's who have played worse than Carr and who are starting QB's right now. And as far as Priest Holmes, I didn't say a word about him, you mentioned Williams and Brown and I responded to that.

I mention Cadillac & Ronnie Brown being on the road to "injury proned-ness" and you mention DD missing 5 games to their 2 & 1 games missed...... I pointed out the great Priest Holmes missed 9 games last year......... now, all I'm saying here, is that if you believe DD to be a worse option at RB because he missed more games than Cadillac & Brown, then that must mean that Priest Holmes is a worse option than DD.

That it is your argument, that doesn't hold water....

QBs with equal or better stats than Car in their first 4 years, that aren't gauranteed Starters in 2006:

Aaron Brooks, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Charlie Batch, Jeff Blake, Kerry Collins, Jay Fiedler, Jeff Garcia, Brian Griese,

The Pencil Neck
07-06-2006, 12:02 PM
I pose a question to who ever thinks DD is a great back or has the potential to do so...Who is the Greatest running back of all time...??? Emmit, because of his record...or barry, or brown, or earl, peyton...ect.....???

I think DD has the potential to be a great back.

The Greatest Running Back of All Time? Jim Brown, hands down. The man was a monster. (Though I am personally partial to Earl... but that's just pure homerism.)

titan hater
07-06-2006, 01:40 PM
I think DD has the potential to be a great back.

The Greatest Running Back of All Time? Jim Brown, hands down. The man was a monster. (Though I am personally partial to Earl... but that's just pure homerism.)

I agree...Jim Brown was the greatest...

1. Jim Brown
2. Barry Sanders (simply because he would have smoked the rest of the field if he would have continued to play)
3. Walter
4. Earl (he might not have played a long time but WOW...he could hurt anyone trying to tackle him)
5. Gale (another who would have been even better if not for injury)
6. Not sure. Maybe Emmitt Smith. But...Hell, I could have run for a thousand yards behind that monster of a line. This also pains me cause I hate the crackwagon as much as the Tacks...

infantrycak
07-06-2006, 02:08 PM
QBs with equal or better stats than Car in their first 4 years, that aren't gauranteed Starters in 2006:

Aaron Brooks, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Charlie Batch, Jeff Blake, Kerry Collins, Jay Fiedler, Jeff Garcia, Brian Griese,

Off on the apples and oranges comparisons again.

Jay Fiedler didn't even attempt a pass in his 1st four years and he didn't become a starter until his 7th year.
Jeff Blake didn't start for 2.5 years.
Aaron Brooks didn't start until almost his 3rd year.

Kerry Collins did not have better stats than Carr over his 1st 4 years--Collins/Carr--9408/10624 yds, 51.5/57.8 comp. %, 6.14/6.53 ypa, 64.5/73.7 QB rating, 51/48 TD's, 64/53 INT's. The only "better" stat Collins had was 3 extra TD's and that came at the expense of 9 extra INT's.

Similarly Joey Harrington has lower completion %, yards, ypa and QB rating.

Wolf
07-06-2006, 04:29 PM
Kerry Collins did not have better stats than Carr over his 1st 4 years--Collins/Carr--9408/10624 yds, 51.5/57.8 comp. %, 6.14/6.53 ypa, 64.5/73.7 QB rating, 51/48 TD's, 64/53 INT's. The only "better" stat Collins had was 3 extra TD's and that came at the expense of 9 extra INT's.



:hmmm: Capers philosophy on offense

DocBar
07-06-2006, 04:40 PM
Sorry, but last season we ran 437 rushing plays and 449 pass plays, so that is pretty much 50/50, so I don't understand the one dimensional angle.
We had a lot more 3rd downs to pass on than anyone else!!! That was our whole philosophy: just get us to 3rd down and we'll show 'em what a pass looks like.

Wolf
07-06-2006, 04:58 PM
I am not bashing DD on this and this is just an off topic note
this is a little quirk of mine. the stats I like for a RB is their team winning when the back goes over 100 yards.

now i don't know how to look up backs and their team records

TexansSeminole
07-06-2006, 05:00 PM
I am not bashing DD on this and this is just an off topic note
this is a little quirk of mine. the stats I like for a RB is their team winning when the back goes over 100 yards.

now i don't know how to look up backs and their team records

Ya, true, but i dont think that applies for the scheme we ran before.

thunderkyss
07-06-2006, 05:10 PM
Off on the apples and oranges comparisons again.

Jay Fiedler didn't even attempt a pass in his 1st four years and he didn't become a starter until his 7th year.
Jeff Blake didn't start for 2.5 years.
Aaron Brooks didn't start until almost his 3rd year.

Kerry Collins did not have better stats than Carr over his 1st 4 years--Collins/Carr--9408/10624 yds, 51.5/57.8 comp. %, 6.14/6.53 ypa, 64.5/73.7 QB rating, 51/48 TD's, 64/53 INT's. The only "better" stat Collins had was 3 extra TD's and that came at the expense of 9 extra INT's.

Similarly Joey Harrington has lower completion %, yards, ypa and QB rating.

True.... but Fiedler can still be just as affective a starter today as Carr has been...... and judging by their past performance, I'd opine, that Fiedler may be more successful.

Jeff Blake was still benched after putting up Carr type numbers on a bad team, that had a history of failure.

And Aaron Brooks sat on his butt for a year, then only started 5 games in one of his 7 seasons...... But he's thrown for almost twice as many yards as David Carr..... (19,156-10,624= 8,532 yards.........) Over the next three years, David has to average over 2,800 yards to better Brooks' 7 year production.... Would you like to make a little wager??

& I said equal or better than..... Collins numbers, as well as Harrington's IMHO are close enough to be equal to....... if you want to bring up ints, I'll bring up sacks, and yards lost.... because all those guys have more wins than Carr over the same 4 year period, despite throwing interceptions, where Carr has taken his team out of position to win.

Wolf
07-06-2006, 05:17 PM
hard to judge different personel...

Brooks had a better receiving/rushing group around him than carr has. I have no idea why N.O. struggled so much

before this year, I would have liked to see a Joe horn,Stallworth and mccallister type talented players in the Texan backfield

infantrycak
07-06-2006, 05:27 PM
if you want to bring up ints, I'll bring up sacks, and yards lost....

INT's are no longer stats?--whatever.

Is bringing up sacks and yards lost supposed to be a threat?

Let's say Carr is responsible over his career for 29%--that would leave 148 sacks on the team. Assuming none of Collins and Harrington's sacks are on them--a silly assumption but hey to be generous--Collins was sacked 100 times and Harrington 77 times in their 1st 4 years. As for Carr's 29% and lost yards, that would at most be 355 yds (1226 yds * 29%--undoubtedly way to high since many of Carr's sacks were due to running out of bounds at or just behind the line of scrimmage vs. normal sacks which often lose 5-10 yds). But hmmm net contribution Carr 685 yds 71 1st downs, Collins 330 yds 28 1st downs, Harrington 345 yds 19 1st downs.

texan279
07-06-2006, 06:19 PM
We had a lot more 3rd downs to pass on than anyone else!!! That was our whole philosophy: just get us to 3rd down and we'll show 'em what a pass looks like.

If you are suggesting our philosophy was run, run, pass, wouldn't our run to pass ratio be more like 2:1 instead of almost exactly 50/50?

texan279
07-06-2006, 06:20 PM
I mention Cadillac & Ronnie Brown being on the road to "injury proned-ness" and you mention DD missing 5 games to their 2 & 1 games missed...... I pointed out the great Priest Holmes missed 9 games last year......... now, all I'm saying here, is that if you believe DD to be a worse option at RB because he missed more games than Cadillac & Brown, then that must mean that Priest Holmes is a worse option than DD.

That it is your argument, that doesn't hold water....

QBs with equal or better stats than Car in their first 4 years, that aren't gauranteed Starters in 2006:

Aaron Brooks, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Charlie Batch, Jeff Blake, Kerry Collins, Jay Fiedler, Jeff Garcia, Brian Griese,

My post had nothing to do with who was the better back, you talked about Williams and Brown being injury prone and I responded to that.

Wolf
07-06-2006, 06:21 PM
If you are suggesting our philosophy was run, run, pass, wouldn't our run to pass ratio be more like 2:1 instead of almost exactly 50/50?

it became 50/50 when they let Carr run the show in arizona :heh:

:stirpot:

Brandon420tx
07-06-2006, 06:22 PM
it became 50/50 when they let Carr run the show in arizona :heh:

:stirpot:
And also, people don't notice our pass attempts much when Carr is sacked.

Wolf
07-06-2006, 06:26 PM
seriously.. or pass/rush attempts is suprisingly even (or close to),but all we remember is the playcalling that is predictable

and yes the sacks and or david scambling out is what we remember
audible.... we know is run left
3rd and long..draw
perception of our offense and how stale it is is perceived as run..run..pass..punt

but in reality they did mix it up..just a shame that everyone knew what was coming

TexansSeminole
07-06-2006, 06:29 PM
Well, i think that if in the 4th quarter, when we are down by a touchdown or two, running the ball isn't the best idea. Even Capers could figure that out.

AFD1717
07-06-2006, 06:37 PM
Well, i think that if in the 4th quarter, when we are down by a touchdown or two, running the ball isn't the best idea. Even Capers could figure that out.
Easy. Let's not jump to conclusions...

DocBar
07-06-2006, 06:53 PM
If you are suggesting our philosophy was run, run, pass, wouldn't our run to pass ratio be more like 2:1 instead of almost exactly 50/50?
Look...my mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts. Actually, I was just trying to make a "witty" comment. I guess I failed miserably.
:confused:
I don't really know if you can call the abomination we had last year a "philosphy".

thunderkyss
07-07-2006, 07:13 AM
INT's are no longer stats?--whatever.

Is bringing up sacks and yards lost supposed to be a threat?

Let's say Carr is responsible over his career for 29%--that would leave 148 sacks on the team. Assuming none of Collins and Harrington's sacks are on them--a silly assumption but hey to be generous--Collins was sacked 100 times and Harrington 77 times in their 1st 4 years. As for Carr's 29% and lost yards, that would at most be 355 yds (1226 yds * 29%--undoubtedly way to high since many of Carr's sacks were due to running out of bounds at or just behind the line of scrimmage vs. normal sacks which often lose 5-10 yds). But hmmm net contribution Carr 685 yds 71 1st downs, Collins 330 yds 28 1st downs, Harrington 345 yds 19 1st downs.


My heads spinning pretty hard here........ what is it that you are trying to say??

My post had nothing to do with who was the better back, you talked about Williams and Brown being injury prone and I responded to that.

So do you think they are injury prone or not??

texan279
07-07-2006, 07:23 AM
My heads spinning pretty hard here........ what is it that you are trying to say??



So do you think they are injury prone or not??

I have never said any of the three are injury prone. I just said Davis missed more games last season than Williams and Brown combined, and that Williams and Brown are both participating in offseason programs while Davis has been recovering from arthriscopic surgery for the last seven months.

thunderkyss
07-07-2006, 07:40 AM
I have never said any of the three are injury prone. I just said Davis missed more games last season than Williams and Brown combined, and that Williams and Brown are both participating in offseason programs while Davis has been recovering from arthriscopic surgery for the last seven months.


there had to be a point in there somewhere......

texan279
07-07-2006, 07:52 AM
there had to be a point in there somewhere......

You said this earlier in the thread...
Both Ronnie Brown, and Caddilac Williams aren't looking to good right now from a durability standpoint either.

And I responded by saying DD missed more games than both of those guys put together last season and that Williams and Brown are participating in offseason programs while DD is on his seventh month of rehabbing his knee. I guess my point is I don't see Brown or Williams having durability issues...

infantrycak
07-07-2006, 08:24 AM
My heads spinning pretty hard here........ what is it that you are trying to say??

You implied in the post I was quoting that there was something about sacks and yards lost which would be better stats for Collins and Harrington than Carr. My post has the stats and nothing about them is better or even for Collins or Harrington.