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johnny_tlmn
06-29-2006, 10:19 PM
...people who supposedly know a little something about the game making statements like "David Carr is 18-46 as a starter." That statement is an idiot finder, and its always helpful to know who those people are, so that is the one redeeming value. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. It's the same sensation I get when I hear people STILL pronouncing Craig Biggio's last name as Beeegio...(see: Patrick, Dan) he has only been in the majors nineteen years... ...

Anyone who honesty believes that wins and losses can be fairly assigned to quarterbacks as they are to baseball pitchers could fit their knowledge of football on a kicking tee. Actually, it isn't always fair in baseball (see: Clemens, Rodger) much less football.
If you simply are not a fan of David Carr thats fine. There are legitimate points to be brought up regarding his performance, but don't attempt to pin all 46 losses on his shoulders just as he is not always the person most responsible for the wins ( example: Aaron Glenn scoring two touchdowns in Pittsburg). Assigning the wins & losses to the QB because his is the most visible position on the field is intellectualy lazy hence this rant..
David is 18-46 while he was leading the league in sacks three out of his four years in the league - all his fault, had nothing to do with a dishwater-weak line in front of him, zero playmakers sans Andre Johnson, and Fred Flinstone calling the plays.
Gee then I guess Ben Roethlisberger is 27-4. Its all Big Ben to be sure. The fact that he leads the league in fewest pass attempts by a starting quarterback would just be an "excuse" made by Steeler-haters. Add playmakers like Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Antwaan Randle El, & Heath Miller...oh and that ground game wasn't too bad either, to the "excuse list". Bill Cower - the best coach of his generation (who has done more with less year in & year out?), well he just happened to be there; clearly it was all Ben. Casey Hampton on defense along with Joey Porter, and that Polamalu guy - you may have heard of him - wait stop making "excuses"! It was Ben.

I mean, he is the quarterback after all... :spy:

HJam72
06-29-2006, 10:26 PM
He's 18-46? Really? OK, I changed my mind. I'm anti-Carr now too. :)

That avatar is hilarious.

Kaiser Toro
06-29-2006, 10:30 PM
He's 18-46? Really? OK, I changed my mind. I'm anti-Carr now too. :)

That avatar is hilarious.

He gets five quacks for the post and a harumph on the avatar. :)

TexansTrueFan
06-29-2006, 11:49 PM
best post i've seen in a WHILE. :ok:

thegr8fan
06-29-2006, 11:55 PM
actually Carr is 17-60. Make ya feel better? :tease:

infantrycak
06-30-2006, 12:33 AM
actually Carr is 17-60. Make ya feel better? :tease:

Why am I having a sense of deja vu?

texan279
06-30-2006, 12:36 AM
I think we need a David Carr sub forum...:hides:

TexanFan881
06-30-2006, 12:38 AM
We should take all of the David Carr threads and combine them into one :lightbulb: Now that would be one huge thread.

But yes, I agree with you, the team loses, not the QB.

HJam72
06-30-2006, 12:43 AM
If we ever do release or trade Carr, this forum will require fewer servers. :)

texan279
06-30-2006, 12:46 AM
If we ever do release or trade Carr, this forum will require fewer servers. :)

Either that or more servers to accomodate all of the "I told you so's" and the people who join the board just to tell everyone "I told you so", we'd have all kinds coming out of the woodwork...

thetexanator
06-30-2006, 12:52 AM
i completely agree with this thread. all these dang carr bashers dont know didly. carr is one pro bowl away from being a pro bowl caliber player, you carr bashers need to realize that!

infantrycak
06-30-2006, 12:56 AM
Just for the heck of it:

Jake Plummer pre-Denver (6 seasons)
55.9 comp. % (0 years over 60%), 6.39 ypa, 90 TD's (3.26% of attempts), 114 INT's (4.13% of attempts), 68.3 QB rating (72.6 last two years at AZ).

David Carr pre-Kubiak
57.8 comp. % (2 years over 60%), 6.53 ypa, 48 TD's (2.95% of attempts), 53 INT's (3.25 % of attempts), 73.7 QB rating (80.5 last two years).

Jake Plummer post-Denver
60.1 comp. %, 7.53 ypa, 60 TD's (4.69% of attempts), 34 INT's (2.66 % of attempts), 88.1 QB rating.

David Carr post-Kubiak
???????????????????????

TexansLucky13
06-30-2006, 12:59 AM
You would need to administer shock therapy to Carr haters before they would even consider changing their minds. It's not about Carr, it's about something else. Just like those who may have a silent resentment against Mario for us surpassing Bush. Who knows. It is a waste of time to quarrel with them and we should focus on more meaningful things. Carr is our QB, and that will not change in the next year.

Kaiser Toro
06-30-2006, 07:58 AM
Just for the heck of it:

Jake Plummer pre-Denver (6 seasons)
55.9 comp. % (0 years over 60%), 6.39 ypa, 90 TD's (3.26% of attempts), 114 INT's (4.13% of attempts), 68.3 QB rating (72.6 last two years at AZ).

David Carr pre-Kubiak
57.8 comp. % (2 years over 60%), 6.53 ypa, 48 TD's (2.95% of attempts), 53 INT's (3.25 % of attempts), 73.7 QB rating (80.5 last two years).

Jake Plummer post-Denver
60.1 comp. %, 7.53 ypa, 60 TD's (4.69% of attempts), 34 INT's (2.66 % of attempts), 88.1 QB rating.

David Carr post-Kubiak
???????????????????????

Great. However, we paid #1 money for Plummer like numbers for the first four years. We better be getting a lot more production from Carr than Plummer got with Kubiak as we have surely compensated him more. Return on investment has been nil from Carr. Total cost of ownership is sky rocketing.

The love fest is great. The optimism is needed, but the only numbers that matter are what his percentage of the team's cap and how many wins does the team have. If this were a business in the corporate world we would have fired, demoted or reassigned him. Giving him a raise would have never been in the forecast since his contribution to the team's record based on his percentage of operating expense would be very high.

Kaiser Toro
06-30-2006, 08:03 AM
You would need to administer shock therapy to Carr haters before they would even consider changing their minds. It's not about Carr, it's about something else. Just like those who may have a silent resentment against Mario for us surpassing Bush. Who knows. It is a waste of time to quarrel with them and we should focus on more meaningful things. Carr is our QB, and that will not change in the next year.

If Carr made Sage Rosenfels money, was not the first pick in the NFL draft or people make comparisions to other great QB's we would not be having a duscussion about him. However, he has been a cornerstone of our team and we have compensated him as such. I would have loved to have him back this year even at Plummer like numbers.

The team will get better and I do not expect Carr to really have any bearing on it as a top paid player should.

Grid
06-30-2006, 08:40 AM
Why do people make such a huge deal out of Carr's draft number?

if we had gotten him in the 7th round would you all be praising his performance?

You act like you cant pay your bills because David Carr took all your money. The way I see it, you look at his numbers, his performance, and his potential, and then you decide to support him based on that. Neither his draft number, or his paycheck, should have any bearing on his worth when he is on the field.

infantrycak
06-30-2006, 08:48 AM
Great. However, we paid #1 money for Plummer like numbers for the first four years. We better be getting a lot more production from Carr than Plummer got with Kubiak as we have surely compensated him more. Return on investment has been nil from Carr. Total cost of ownership is sky rocketing.

The money paid in the 1st 4 years is irrelevant now--it is sunk, gone, in the past just like the money for Boselli, Walker, Wade, Smith and everyone else on the team to date--or the money paid by other teams in the past for example to Philip Rivers not to play for 2 years. No one is paying it back, re-earning it or earning it. The only pertinent salary question going forward is does a player earn his money on the field this year.

The love fest is great. The optimism is needed, but the only numbers that matter are what his percentage of the team's cap and how many wins does the team have.

Interesting, so some naked stats with no prediction for Carr's performance in the future is a "love fest"? Seems to me you are looking for wabbits to hunt.

If this were a business in the corporate world we would have fired, demoted or reassigned him. Giving him a raise would have never been in the forecast since his contribution to the team's record based on his percentage of operating expense would be very high.

I wouldn't be so fast there. The corporate world can be even better at overcompensating performance (no salary cap and all)--Home Depot CEO Nardelli has received $200 mil in the last 5 years as his shareholder returns are down and they are losing ground rapidly to Loews (whose CEO has received $10.5 mil over the same period--who has rising shareholder returns and market share).

texan279
06-30-2006, 08:59 AM
The love fest is great. The optimism is needed, but the only numbers that matter are what his percentage of the team's cap and how many wins does the team have.

I don't think we can blame lack of wins on Carr.

If this were a business in the corporate world we would have fired, demoted or reassigned him. Giving him a raise would have never been in the forecast since his contribution to the team's record based on his percentage of operating expense would be very high.

It was either give Carr the extension or let him walk and look for a QB in free agency or the draft.

Kaiser Toro
06-30-2006, 09:11 AM
Why do people make such a huge deal out of Carr's draft number?

if we had gotten him in the 7th round would you all be praising his performance?

You act like you cant pay your bills because David Carr took all your money. The way I see it, you look at his numbers, his performance, and his potential, and then you decide to support him based on that. Neither his draft number, or his paycheck, should have any bearing on his worth when he is on the field.

Since I am fan of a team that is in a sport that has a finite salary cap it matters to me.

TwinSisters
06-30-2006, 09:18 AM
Where you get drafted dictates how much money you get paid in the NFL.

Is it fair? Maybe not. Is it always like that? No. Is it a big factor? Absolutely.

srstex
06-30-2006, 09:35 AM
As to the CEO analagy, the Texans make money, look it up we are in the top 10, and Bob should be happy with that. As to Carr's paycheck, it is in line with the rest of the league as a percent to cap, and less than those of QB's with better numbers, look at the Mannings, and neither of them has a SB Ring.

Brady 3-Rings, Rothlesgerger 1-Ring, Farve 1-Ring, Elway 2-Rings ( after 10+ years in the league, and 3-losses ) Jim Kelley 4 losses in the SB. When you look at these, argueably great QB's, they all played a different style of game, and when Kubiak finds Carr's best talents and Carr realizes and understands the O-system I think we will be in the play-offs, if not this year, then next.

Kaiser Toro
06-30-2006, 09:58 AM
Got me going 'round in circles. Can't do the dance anymore. Been there done that.

Carr has stunk, he has made a lot of money. We extended him. He is our starting QB next year. That sums it up for me, see you all in a Carr thread in August. Enjoy.

Thankfully I have Mario, Moulds and the other rookies to watch this year.

AFD1717
06-30-2006, 11:02 AM
I'm convinced that David Carr is actually a virus. He somehow infects every thread on this board.

Vambo, the Marble Eye
06-30-2006, 11:22 AM
If this were a business in the corporate world we would have fired, demoted or reassigned him. Giving him a raise would have never been in the forecast since his contribution to the team's record based on his percentage of operating expense would be very high.

I have a new thread called defining the Texans actions under the premise of "If this were the corporate world"

a) ...you would be banished to sensitivity training until further notice for suggesting "accountability".

b) ...you would blame everybody else and fire them (as long as they didn't have longterm contracts)

c) ...give everybody raises that complained just to make sure everybody is happy.

d) ...draft Reggie Bush to improve our "excitement" on offense

e) ...draft Vince Young to make sure a home town hero stays "home town".

any more?:spy:

Kaiser Toro
06-30-2006, 11:41 AM
I have a new thread called defining the Texans actions under the premise of "If this were the corporate world"

a) ...you would be banished to sensitivity training until further notice for suggesting "accountability".

b) ...you would blame everybody else and fire them (as long as they didn't have longterm contracts)

c) ...give everybody raises that complained just to make sure everybody is happy.

d) ...draft Reggie Bush to improve our "excitement" on offense

e) ...draft Vince Young to make sure a home town hero stays "home town".

any more?:spy:


Those corporate initiatives would surely put the company on thin ice from a financial, operational and HR standpoint. Although product group, marketing and sales would be happy.

MorKnolle
06-30-2006, 03:09 PM
actually Carr is 17-60. Make ya feel better? :tease:

How has Carr managed to play 77 games in four seasons? Last I checked 16x4 = 64 games max, plus he was injured for a few games back in 2003, or was this post meant to be a joke??

infantrycak
06-30-2006, 04:07 PM
How has Carr managed to play 77 games in four seasons? Last I checked 16x4 = 64 games max, plus he was injured for a few games back in 2003, or was this post meant to be a joke??

gr8 is saying he has won 17 of 60. His record therefore would be 17 wins, 43 losses.

NATHANHALE
06-30-2006, 04:20 PM
I have a new thread called defining the Texans actions under the premise of "If this were the corporate world"

a) ...you would be banished to sensitivity training until further notice for suggesting "accountability".

b) ...you would blame everybody else and fire them (as long as they didn't have longterm contracts)

c) ...give everybody raises that complained just to make sure everybody is happy.

d) ...draft Reggie Bush to improve our "excitement" on offense

e) ...draft Vince Young to make sure a home town hero stays "home town".

any more?:spy:

...so,if this team were run like a business in the 'real world,' where would Carr be?

TEXANRED
06-30-2006, 04:26 PM
But, but, we already have a Carr thread, just look 10 threads down. started by thunderkyss. (that roookie:redtowel: )

thegr8fan
06-30-2006, 05:32 PM
or was this post meant to be a joke?? my vote would be 'Yes'. sure is reading like one. :chicken:

thanks cak for clearing that up for me. I guess I give too much credit for reasoning skills sometimes. :rolleyes:

Maddict5
06-30-2006, 05:48 PM
Gee then I guess Ben Roethlisberger is 27-4. Its all Big Ben to be sure. The fact that he leads the league in fewest pass attempts by a starting quarterback would just be an "excuse" made by Steeler-haters. Add playmakers like Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Antwaan Randle El, & Heath Miller...oh and that ground game wasn't too bad either, to the "excuse list". Bill Cower - the best coach of his generation (who has done more with less year in & year out?), well he just happened to be there; clearly it was all Ben. Casey Hampton on defense along with Joey Porter, and that Polamalu guy - you may have heard of him - wait stop making "excuses"! It was Ben.

I mean, he is the quarterback after all... :spy:


forget big ben...see i know my football and i say we should pull a ditka to get that :hunter: orton kid from chicago...hes 11-3 as a starter.... kid is special:ok: :pigfly:

Grid
06-30-2006, 06:18 PM
Since I am fan of a team that is in a sport that has a finite salary cap it matters to me.

As of yet, we have not been short of money when we needed it. Actually, we have had enough money to OVERPAY free agents.

David Carr's contract has had absolutely NO adverse effect on this team, so it is a moot point.

Kaiser Toro
06-30-2006, 07:45 PM
As of yet, we have not been short of money when we needed it. Actually, we have had enough money to OVERPAY free agents.

David Carr's contract has had absolutely NO adverse effect on this team, so it is a moot point.

It is not a moot point, because it counts against the salary more so than any other player on the team and for the longest time in our history. 7% on a 53 man roster is significant.

No adverse effect on the team? Don't bogart, pass it on over.

Grid
06-30-2006, 09:30 PM
for one.. ill bet ya $100 bucks that if you sat down and talked to the Texans players, not one of them would have an issue with Carr's contract.

for two.. and this is the important one. It doesnt matter. Who cares how much money he makes? pay him a billion dollars to sit the bench for all I care, its not my money and as long as it is not having an adverse effect on the team (and its not) then so what.

TexanFan881
06-30-2006, 11:07 PM
for one.. ill bet ya $100 bucks that if you sat down and talked to the Texans players, not one of them would have an issue with Carr's contract.

for two.. and this is the important one. It doesnt matter. Who cares how much money he makes? pay him a billion dollars to sit the bench for all I care, its not my money and as long as it is not having an adverse effect on the team (and its not) then so what.

That's exactly how I feel Grid. Who the heck cares how much we're paying Carr? As long as we are under the salary cap why does it matter if we give our QB some motavation money. Our cap space is not stopping us from getting anyone we want. Lets make Carr happy, he's our franchise QB, and lets make AJ happy, because he's our future at WR, and lets make all the starters happy on our team because we can afford it. Let's make our players happy for being Texans, not regreting it. And money is definately one problem that teams and players need to agree on. Maybe we can build a reputation for being a friendly team to our players and attract other future free agents. Because we can afford it. And there's no reason that we can't do it for the players. Let's get the most out of each and every one of our players.

thunderkyss
07-01-2006, 12:38 AM
You act like you cant pay your bills because David Carr took all your money. The way I see it, you look at his numbers, his performance, and his potential, and then you decide to support him based on that. Neither his draft number, or his paycheck, should have any bearing on his worth when he is on the field.

Those numbers put him in the company of Joey Harrington, Aaron Brooks, Tim Couch, and a "we need to draft Phillip Rivers" Drew Brees.....

The money paid in the 1st 4 years is irrelevant now--it is sunk, gone, in the past just like the money for Boselli, Walker, Wade, Smith and everyone else on the team to date--or the money paid by other teams in the past for example to Philip Rivers not to play for 2 years. No one is paying it back, re-earning it or earning it. The only pertinent salary question going forward is does a player earn his money on the field this year.


And when have you ever defended any of those players?? Why is it only Carr has earned your favor??


As to the CEO analagy, the Texans make money, look it up we are in the top 10, and Bob should be happy with that. As to Carr's paycheck, it is in line with the rest of the league as a percent to cap, and less than those of QB's with better numbers, look at the Mannings, and neither of them has a SB Ring.

I think the Cowgirls have got Drew Brees for like $2million a year. I doubt Aaron Brooks signed with Oakland for $8million.... I need to check, but I don't think JakePlummer is making $8 million either..... Matt haselback....... I doubt he's getting $8 million.


But, but, we already have a Carr thread, just look 10 threads down. started by thunderkyss. (that roookie:redtowel: )

and you and every one else who hates Carr threads manage to keep them alive.........

can't just not post, and let them die......

Grid
07-01-2006, 12:57 AM
Those numbers put him in the company of Joey Harrington, Aaron Brooks, Tim Couch, and a "we need to draft Phillip Rivers" Drew Brees.....

So?

thunderkyss
07-01-2006, 01:23 AM
So?

I'm just sayin

TheCD
07-01-2006, 01:45 AM
I think the Cowgirls have got Drew Brees for like $2million a year. I doubt Aaron Brooks signed with Oakland for $8million.... I need to check, but I don't think JakePlummer is making $8 million either..... Matt haselback....... I doubt he's getting $8 million.

Here's some QB contract figures for you:

Drew Bledsoe: 2 year deal for $4.7 mil per year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1059

Aaron Brooks: 2 year deal for $4 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1076

Jake Plummer: 7 year deal for $5.7 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1547

Matt Hasselbeck: 6 year deal for $8.2 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1298

Michael Vick: 10 year deal for $13 mil per year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm?pid=1681

Alex Smith: 6 year deal for $8.25 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.3385

Peyton Manning: 9 year deal for $14.1 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1433

David Carr: 7 year deal worth at least $6.4 mil per year up to $8.6 mil IF he meets all his incentives http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2002/draft/news/2002/04/15/texans_carr_ap/

So you see that although Carr is getting paid 1st overall money, he's not getting paid premier QB money.

texan279
07-01-2006, 01:54 AM
It is not a moot point, because it counts against the salary more so than any other player on the team and for the longest time in our history. 7% on a 53 man roster is significant.

No adverse effect on the team? Don't bogart, pass it on over.

Andre Johnson has the biggest cap hit on the books this season...

texan279
07-01-2006, 01:55 AM
Here's some QB contract figures for you:

Drew Bledsoe: 2 year deal for $4.7 mil per year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1059

Aaron Brooks: 2 year deal for $4 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1076

Jake Plummer: 7 year deal for $5.7 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1547

Matt Hasselbeck: 6 year deal for $8.2 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1298

Michael Vick: 10 year deal for $13 mil per year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm?pid=1681

Alex Smith: 6 year deal for $8.25 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.3385

Peyton Manning: 9 year deal for $14.1 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1433

David Carr: 7 year deal worth at least $6.4 mil per year up to $8.6 mil IF he meets all his incentives http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2002/draft/news/2002/04/15/texans_carr_ap/

So you see that although Carr is getting paid 1st overall money, he's not getting paid premier QB money.

Good info...

thunderkyss
07-01-2006, 02:13 AM
David is getting his salary, plus a bonus this year..... $8 mill plus $4 or $5 mill.


Here's some QB contract figures for you:

Drew Bledsoe: 2 year deal for $4.7 mil per year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1059

The Cowboys signed Bledsoe to a three-year deal on February 23, 2005. The Dallas Morning News reports that the deal is worth roughly $14 million and included a $2 million signing bonus.

3 years........ $14mill= $4.7mill
but if you break it down, to $2mill signing bonus, 3 years/$11million= $3.6 mill a year....

Aaron Brooks: 2 year deal for $4 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1076

Jake Plummer: 7 year deal for $5.7 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1547

Matt Hasselbeck: 6 year deal for $8.2 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1298

Michael Vick: 10 year deal for $13 mil per year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm?pid=1681

Alex Smith: 6 year deal for $8.25 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.3385

Peyton Manning: 9 year deal for $14.1 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1433

David Carr: 7 year deal worth at least $6.4 mil per year up to $8.6 mil IF he meets all his incentives http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2002/draft/news/2002/04/15/texans_carr_ap/

So you see that although Carr is getting paid 1st overall money, he's not getting paid premier QB money.

we could have let him walk, owing him nothing, and picked up Brees for less money, Brooks for less money, Harrington for less money, or Culpepper for comparable money.....

infantrycak
07-01-2006, 10:07 AM
And when have you ever defended any of those players?? Why is it only Carr has earned your favor??

Well if you had been around for the last 4 years and bothered to read anything not having to do with Carr you would have seen plenty of posts. We discussed the Boselli deal ad nauseum. I have repeatedly said Walker was our best DLmen when healthy. I have also repeatedly posted about Payne and his being underrated by the MB. Long before you came along I was pointing out DD is not "too small" as often characterized and had put together a rare start to his career. I have responded where DeMeco has been called too small. I have responded where Wade has been characterized as fat. I haven't seen any attacks on Smith.

What you miss is that Carr has not "earned my favor"--I respond when I see ANY player receive unwarranted attacks. Carr deserves criticism--he doesn't deserve to have radio comments by Bryan Pittman attributed to Steve McKinney, he doesn't deserve to have people twist statements like "we have to play well," he doesn't deserve to have people state he refuses to study game film when the only thing ever reported was he took game film home for extra study instead of viewing it at the facility. Every comment which isn't a blanket condemnation of Carr is not an endorsement of him.

TheCD
07-01-2006, 10:16 AM
David is getting his salary, plus a bonus this year..... $8 mill plus $4 or $5 mill.





3 years........ $14mill= $4.7mill
but if you break it down, to $2mill signing bonus, 3 years/$11million= $3.6 mill a year....


we could have let him walk, owing him nothing, and picked up Brees for less money, Brooks for less money, Harrington for less money, or Culpepper for comparable money.....



You're wrong about the Carr figure. Look at that site. Before escalators and other bonuses, the contract is worth $46.25 million over the course of the seven years. The deal's maximum value is seven years at $60 million.


This obvioulsy boils down to a MAXIMUM of $8.6 mil per year IF HE MEETS ALL HIS INCENTIVES...which I guarantee he hasn't.


And here's the info on Drew Brees, he's NOT cheaper at all...

Drew Brees: 6 year deal with the Saints for $10 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1070


Brooks is the only one I'd be ok with signing. Brees is still a question because of his injury, and Culpepper is as well and the fact that he couldn't do anything without a speed receiver like Moss is a little unsettling.


And you have to be nuts to suggest that we should have picked up Joey Harrington. That's the laughable statement of the century right there. There's a reason why he's only getting $800,000 in salary this year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm?pid=1294

bigbrewster2000
07-01-2006, 10:25 AM
David is getting his salary, plus a bonus this year..... $8 mill plus $4 or $5 mill.





3 years........ $14mill= $4.7mill
but if you break it down, to $2mill signing bonus, 3 years/$11million= $3.6 mill a year....


we could have let him walk, owing him nothing, and picked up Brees for less money, Brooks for less money, Harrington for less money, or Culpepper for comparable money.....
Brees contract is 10 mil a year so what are you talking about? Plus he is coming off an injury, plus what makes you think we would have gotten him simply because he was on the market? Same goes for any of the other players you mentioned.

TwinSisters
07-01-2006, 10:52 AM
Just going to add that you cannot break down a contract 60 million 6 years into meaning a 10 million cap hit every season.

The money is often shifted around and only guaranteed money means anything.
---

Looking at these contracts and cost to performance... looks like we would have made out like bandits drafting Peppers and signing Drew Bledsoe back in 2002.

aj.
07-01-2006, 10:53 AM
If I could offer any advice to those of you arguing/comparing contracts, I would say ignore contract value because it's more than a bit misleading. Big contracts are rarely satisfied to their term and those numbers are more to satisfy agents' egos than anything else.

I'd focus on the amount of signing bonus and the length of the contract (future dead money in mind), then look at when the base amount escalates to a level where the team will likely force a rework. Also look for voidable years, options and buybacks for clues as to when the contract will be re-done and the decisions made on whether a player will be retained or let go. Also, in terms if a player is worth it or not, you have to look at the player's age and whether he can realistically play at least 2/3 of the contract term. [the Gary Walker rule]

TheCD
07-01-2006, 11:41 AM
If I could offer any advice to those of you arguing/comparing contracts, I would say ignore contract value because it's more than a bit misleading. Big contracts are rarely satisfied to their term and those numbers are more to satisfy agents' egos than anything else.

I'd focus on the amount of signing bonus and the length of the contract (future dead money in mind), then look at when the base amount escalates to a level where the team will likely force a rework. Also look for voidable years, options and buybacks for clues as to when the contract will be re-done and the decisions made on whether a player will be retained or let go. Also, in terms if a player is worth it or not, you have to look at the player's age and whether he can realistically play at least 2/3 of the contract term. [the Gary Walker rule]


I understand what you're saying. But the information I used provided all the contract figures in a similar fashion, therefore it still provides an equal representation of each players' earnings, regardless of incentives and such. I was just trying to show that Carr isn't making as high-dollar as some people think he is.

I'm no salary cap/contractual wizard, so if anyone has any hard-nosed evidence that shows if I'm right or wrong about this, it'd be appreciated.

Lucky
07-01-2006, 11:49 AM
--Home Depot CEO Nardelli has received $200 mil in the last 5 years as his shareholder returns are down and they are losing ground rapidly to Loews...
Nardelli is a bust! Vince Young should be running Home Depot. He's a true leader & looks great in orange.

infantrycak
07-01-2006, 11:50 AM
I'm no salary cap/contractual wizard, so if anyone has any hard-nosed evidence that shows if I'm right or wrong about this, it'd be appreciated.

One measure to use is the franchise tag (average of top 5 cap hits) and transition tag (top 10 cap hits) for the position. These will include prorated bonuses, roster bonuses and salary.

For QB's they are $8.8 mil for the franchise tag and $8.3 mil for the transition tag. Carr's cap hit is $7.25 mil for this season so you can see Carr is paid below the top third of the league and probably somewhere in the middle third of the league for QB's.

One cautionary note on this is roster bonuses are not pro-rated and can drive up the tag numbers temporarily. This happened a couple years ago when CB's tag numbers went over QB's because Antoine Winfield received his signing bonus as a roster bonus of $10 mil because the Vikings had so much cap room. I am not aware of any such unusual roster bonuses paid to QB's this year and these numbers are in line with past years so this is really more of an FYI.

aj.
07-01-2006, 11:51 AM
I wasn't talking to anyone in particular, in fact, I read all of the last few posts in this thread. I'm just sharing what I've learned and like I said, you or anyone else can take it or leave it.

One measure to use is the franchise tag (average of top 5 cap hits) and transition tag (top 10 cap hits) for the position. These will include prorated bonuses, roster bonuses and salary.


And those can be misleading as well (see Antoine Winfield two years ago).

DocBar
07-01-2006, 12:09 PM
OHHH MY ACHING HEAD!!!! All this contract talk is killing me. I become an EXTREMELY casual fan when it gets to contracts. I am, however, fairly impressed with the grasp that several of y'all have on the system. I usually just go with the garaunteed money and figure the last few years of the contract as "ego-boosters" for the agents.
:twocents:

thunderkyss
07-01-2006, 12:40 PM
Well if you had been around for the last 4 years and bothered to read anything not having to do with Carr you would have seen plenty of posts.

Forgive me.......

You're wrong about the Carr figure. Look at that site.


No I'm not. the contract is set up the way most NFL contracts are. the player's salary is relatively small... bonus's are larger....... usually, that latter years of the contract are higher salaries, but the player usually never sees it. the contract is usually renegotiated to another small salary big bonus deal. David, earned $1.4 million or something like that his first year or so.... Now he is in a part of his contract where he will earn a $5.something salary. He'll be getting payments per game, that will equal $5.something then he already got his Bonus...... $8 million. that's $13.something million that we've given David Carr to play football for the Houston Texans in 2006.



And here's the info on Drew Brees, he's NOT cheaper at all...

Drew Brees: 6 year deal with the Saints for $10 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1070


I'll admit that I haven't looked at the link yet, but I will. IIRC, Brees is getting a few million to play this year..... he's basically on a one year probation type thing...... if his shoulder prevents him from playing past 2006, the Saints don't owe him a thing, and should've drafted Vince............ or Matt, whatever.

Brooks is the only one I'd be ok with signing. Brees is still a question because of his injury, and Culpepper is as well and the fact that he couldn't do anything without a speed receiver like Moss is a little unsettling.


I was just rattling off options, of guys with better stats that would cost us less than $13.something. or who were more than likely less than $7.25million cap liabilites.....



And you have to be nuts to suggest that we should have picked up Joey Harrington. That's the laughable statement of the century right there. There's a reason why he's only getting $800,000 in salary this year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm?pid=1294
[/quote]
then I'm nuts......... Joey for $800,000 compared to Carr for $13.something million, or $7.25 million sounds like a sweet deal to me.


Brees contract is 10 mil a year so what are you talking about? Plus he is coming off an injury, plus what makes you think we would have gotten him simply because he was on the market? Same goes for any of the other players you mentioned.

He won't ever see $10 million a year, where David's bank account will have grown over $13 million dollars from April 2006, to January 2007.

heavily back load the contract, so the player has to perform to get it.... but know that you'll force them to renegotiate so they never see that either. That's what happened with Steve McNair....... 'cept he wasn't having it.

David's contract was written to protect us. He was expected to be lighting up the NFL by now, and instead of us having to pay him a gazillion dollars, this option(which was our choice only) would have allowed us to keep him here for what should be considered a deal...... which would give us leverage when negotiating David's new multi-year deal. as it stands, he looks aweful expensive...... heck we could have signed a QB #1 overall in the draft for that kind of money.

TwinSisters
07-01-2006, 12:51 PM
Team
Passing Yds (Rank)
Passing Attempts
Pass Completion
% Pass Completion
Passing Yds/Attempt
Passing Touchdowns
% Passes Intercepted
NFL QB Rating
300 yd Passing Games
Avg. NFL Rank

David
Carr
Texans
2488 ( 19)
423 ( 17)
256 ( 16)
60.5 ( 17)
5.88 ( 31)
14 ( 20)
2.6 ( 15)
77.2 ( 21)
0 ( -)
17.33

Drew
Bledsoe
Cowboys
3639 ( 8)
499 ( 8)
300 ( 8)
60.1 ( 20)
7.29 ( 10)
23 ( 8)
3.4 ( 24)
83.7 ( 17)
3 ( 8)
12.33

( this is with ten games )

Chris
Simms
Buccaneers
2035 ( 25)
313 ( 24)
191 ( 23)
61.0 ( 15)
6.50 ( 23)
10 ( 28)
2.2 ( 9)
81.4 ( 19)
0 ( -)
18.44

Jake
Plummer
Broncos
3366 ( 12)
456 ( 11)
277 ( 12)
60.7 ( 16)
7.38 ( 9)
18 ( 12)
1.5 ( 2)
90.2 ( 7)
1 ( 17)
10.89


:dontknowa

TheCD
07-01-2006, 01:11 PM
No I'm not. the contract is set up the way most NFL contracts are. the player's salary is relatively small... bonus's are larger....... usually, that latter years of the contract are higher salaries, but the player usually never sees it. the contract is usually renegotiated to another small salary big bonus deal. David, earned $1.4 million or something like that his first year or so.... Now he is in a part of his contract where he will earn a $5.something salary. He'll be getting payments per game, that will equal $5.something then he already got his Bonus...... $8 million. that's $13.something million that we've given David Carr to play football for the Houston Texans in 2006.


Once again...look at that site. It says, and I quoted this, that the MAXIMUM David Carr can receive off of the ENTIRE deal we made with him was $60 mil for 7 years...which amounts to $8.6 mil AFTER INCENTIVES, BONUSES, AND THE LIKE. Before escalators and other bonuses, the contract is worth $46.25 million over the course of the seven years.

In other words, BEFORE ESCALATORS AND OTHER BONUSES, Carr can make at least $6.6 mil...AFTER ALL BONUSES AND OTHER ESCALATORS HE CANNOT MAKE MORE THAN $8.6 MIL.

infantrycak
07-01-2006, 02:21 PM
He'll be getting payments per game, that will equal $5.something then he already got his Bonus...... $8 million. that's $13.something million that we've given David Carr to play football for the Houston Texans in 2006.

It is ridiculous to act as if Carr is getting $13 mil to play this year--the signing bonus is prorated for a reason--it is the incentive to play over the life of the contract. Peyton Manning didn't get $35 mil to play last year either. Your point is fine that Carr is overpaid based on prior performance at his cap hit of $7.2 mil so there is no need to spoil the point by going overboard and trying to make the money look worse.

He won't ever see $10 million a year, where David's bank account will have grown over $13 million dollars from April 2006, to January 2007.

Well he certainly is seeing over $10 mil this year by your standard--his signing bonus was $10 mil and his salary is $1.9 mil for a total of $11.9 mil. There is a $12 mil bonus due next year if the Saints want to keep him.

David's contract was written to protect us. He was expected to be lighting up the NFL by now, and instead of us having to pay him a gazillion dollars, this option(which was our choice only) would have allowed us to keep him here for what should be considered a deal..

The deal was written to protect both parties. Carr had the 1st option--if he met certain performance standards he could opt out of the last three years of the contract--he did. The Texans then had an option to buy back either the next two years of the contract for $5.5 mil or all three years of the contract by paying $8 mil. One could surmise the Texans are firm in their judgment of Carr based on exercising the 3 year rather than 2 year buy back option.

TwinSisters
07-01-2006, 02:48 PM
One could surmise the Texans are firm in their judgment of Carr based on exercising the 3 year rather than 2 year buy back option.

hmmm. Wait a minute. The Texans firm judgement earned a number 32 spot and signed Carr in the first place, so that's not good. It's not a good thing that they think he is a good thing.

infantrycak
07-01-2006, 03:02 PM
hmmm. Wait a minute. The Texans firm judgement earned a number 32 spot and signed Carr in the first place, so that's not good. It's not a good thing that they think he is a good thing.

Did I say it was a good thing? I said they appeared firm in their judgment.

TwinSisters
07-01-2006, 03:24 PM
Did I say it was a good thing? I said they appeared firm in their judgment.

So then are you saying it is a bad thing?

:fishing:

( just kidding... I do not expect a reply )

BlueThunder
07-01-2006, 03:39 PM
It ticks me off to that we passed a QB in the draft but now everyone wants to add pressure and dish our only hope....I wouldn't say Carr is the starter,,it added virus to the youth and fizzles out the carma of the team and competition.I really think Carr is the best QB but we have to give our other QBs a shot with the first team in the preseason to unset him.We have 2 new systems so our season pretty much starts Augest 12 when KC comes to town.It will be the ultimate test with a running coach and a running team..:party:

thunderkyss
07-02-2006, 01:27 AM
It is ridiculous to act as if Carr is getting $13 mil to play this year--the signing bonus is prorated for a reason--it is the incentive to play over the life of the contract. Peyton Manning didn't get $35 mil to play last year either. Your point is fine that Carr is overpaid based on prior performance at his cap hit of $7.2 mil so there is no need to spoil the point by going overboard and trying to make the money look worse.



Well he certainly is seeing over $10 mil this year by your standard--his signing bonus was $10 mil and his salary is $1.9 mil for a total of $11.9 mil. There is a $12 mil bonus due next year if the Saints want to keep him.


You're right, I'm twisting the numbers to make it look worse than it is..... for effect...... you can fool some of th......... you know the rest.

& Brees Contract, I didn't know the extent of the deal...... I was going by what the other guy posted... If Brees got a $10 mill signing bonus, then I was wrong, we couldn't have gotten him cheaper than we paid for Carr, and the Saints are dumber than I thought.

thunderkyss
07-02-2006, 01:33 AM
It ticks me off to that we passed a QB in the draft but now everyone wants to add pressure and dish our only hope....I wouldn't say Carr is the starter,,it added virus to the youth and fizzles out the carma of the team and competition.I really think Carr is the best QB but we have to give our other QBs a shot with the first team in the preseason to unset him.We have 2 new systems so our season pretty much starts Augest 12 when KC comes to town.It will be the ultimate test with a running coach and a running team..:party:

NO Carr is the starter....... that's the whole point of the $8 mil....

But that's not a bad thing.... Carr still has a strong arm, and he doesn't make bad throws.. often..... he's got enough mobility, and he's tough as nails..... As long as he doesn't do the silly things that hurt him, and our team, he should be good.

TheCD
07-02-2006, 01:43 AM
NO Carr is the starter....... that's the whole point of the $8 mil....

But that's not a bad thing.... Carr still has a strong arm, and he doesn't make bad throws.. often..... he's got enough mobility, and he's tough as nails..... As long as he doesn't do the silly things that hurt him, and our team, he should be good.


The "silly mistakes" you're referring to reflect a coaching problem. But now that we have the man who not only backed up John Elway, but taught him and Steve Young, as well as Jake Plummer more recently, I think we'll be just fine seeing as he's got plenty of experience working with a mobile QB who's got a solid arm.

MorKnolle
07-02-2006, 02:09 AM
The "silly mistakes" you're referring to reflect a coaching problem. But now that we have the man who not only backed up John Elway, but taught him and Steve Young, as well as Jake Plummer more recently, I think we'll be just fine seeing as he's got plenty of experience working with a mobile QB who's got a solid arm.

As big of a fan as I am of Kubiak, I don't know how much he "taught" Steve Young and John Elway, although he certainly helped resurrect Jake Plummer's career.

beerlover
07-02-2006, 04:22 AM
As big of a fan as I am of Kubiak, I don't know how much he "taught" Steve Young and John Elway, although he certainly helped resurrect Jake Plummer's career.


if he can resurrect Jake Plummer imagine what he can do for David Carr :lightbulb:

Revolution
07-02-2006, 08:49 AM
my vote would be 'Yes'. sure is reading like one. :chicken:

thanks cak for clearing that up for me. I guess I give too much credit for reasoning skills sometimes. :rolleyes:

Reasoning skills? How about most times, records are given W-L as the first post. What in your post would lead someone to someone think "Oh, he means he has won 17 of 60 games?????? At first glance, it looks like you just screwed up to me because when I speak of a win/loss record, I refer to wins and losses, not wins in total number of games.

You are asking people to read your mind, not use their reasoning skills.


Duh.....

:fortune:

TwinSisters
07-02-2006, 10:26 AM
As big of a fan as I am of Kubiak, I don't know how much he "taught" Steve Young and John Elway, although he certainly helped resurrect Jake Plummer's career.

Holmgren gets most of the coaching credit for Steve Young, Brett Farve, and to a lesser extent Joe Montana. The Steve Young link comes from his BYU days.

Then of course there is Hasselbeck too.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/seahawks/2006-01-31-holmgren-cover_x.htm
----

Just a little interesting note that goes back a few Carr threads

In Green Bay, where Favre more than occasionally had his own ideas, someone had to provide a demilitarized zone. "I would say I was right in the middle of it," Reid says. "I was a big buffer."

In that whole article they don't mention Shanahan or Kubiak once... pretty funny. Like there is some type divide there in 1994.

infantrycak
07-02-2006, 10:31 AM
As big of a fan as I am of Kubiak, I don't know how much he "taught" Steve Young and John Elway, although he certainly helped resurrect Jake Plummer's career.

Who knows how much he taught him but Young said this in his Hall of Fame speech:

I have to say today in the audience I have never been more productive as a player then when Mike Shanahan and when Gary Kubiak were my coach.

TwinSisters
07-02-2006, 11:04 AM
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/release.jsp?release_id=1609

There is the whole transcript.

Learning from our failures, all of us, is as important as learning from our successes.

I did not learn all of these things on my own, I have been the recipient of the best coaching that one person has collectively ever had over my 30-year football career.

My dad mentioned Mike Ornato at Greenwich High School, the hotbed of football. Then there’s Lavell Edwards, also a Hall of Famer himself. Mike Holmgren coached me fresh from San Francisco State at BYU, and Ted Tollner. It was the great John Hadl, with Hall of Famer, Sid Gillman, who convinced me to let them tutor me in L.A. Along with Don Klosterman, they made a great threesome and taught me more about pro ball and quarterbacking than I could get in a lifetime.

Sid Gillman would tie my feet with a rope and taught me that playing quarterback was an art form. He’d always gravely say, ‘This is not a game, it is a canvas and you are Michelangelo.’ I loved Sid. He convinced me not to listen to the many people who believed at that time, in the mid 80’s, that you could not be a great quarterback if you could scramble. Go figure. Times change, it never made much sense to me anyway.

The coaching hit parade never subsided in my career. When I got to San Francisco it was only my favorite college coach again, Mike Holmgren, a future Super Bowl winner, and again Bill Walsh . The man with the most impact in football over the last 25 years. The innovation and enlightenment that he brought to the game is now commonplace in the league. We know about the West Coast offense that half of the league runs now in some form as well as the other intangibles that he brought to the game, like limiting contact in practice to save legs and injuries. His influence is now all over the league and I was grateful for the formative role he played in my progress. He believed in a scrambling lefty. Thanks Bill.

George Seifert pushed me very hard, and never let me rest. The situation we were both in demanded no excuses. It was Super Bowl or bust in San Francisco. Tough place to live. I never thought I would like a defensive minded head coach but he and I were champions together.

I have to say today in the audience I have never been more productive as a player then when Mike Shanahan and when Gary Kubiak were my coach. Mike, thanks for coming today, on your off day in training camp. That tells ya a little something. He and I were equally intense and he drove me beyond my own standards. He believed that I could be an MVP quarterback. One of the best game day play callers I have ever seen. His famous quote to me before Super Bowl XIX ‘Steve, don’t worry we’re going to crush these guys.’ Ya, well, we did. And he knew.

Steve Mariucci coached me to the end. His enthusiasm and vigor for winning was contagious. Both he and Marty Mornhinweg made me enjoy the game more than I ever had in the past. They helped me realize how much fun a game can be even with all of the expectations of Super Bowls. “Mooch” always yelled at me ‘is this fun or what?’ Yes it was.

thegr8fan
07-02-2006, 12:18 PM
Reasoning skills? How about most times, records are given W-L as the first post. What in your post would lead someone to someone think "Oh, he means he has won 17 of 60 games?????? unruffle your feathers, chicken little. what would make me think someone would use reasoning skills? hmmm. perhaps as you so eloquently pointed out, in 4 seasons at 16 games per season there ISN'T 77 games total. go back and read my response and tell me where in it I used the word 'win' or 'loss'. so since there isn't 77 games, and I didn't use the word, 'win' or the word 'loss', what could I have possible meant? hmmmm now pay attention class, here is where 'reasoning skills' come in. Perhaps I meant that Carr has won a total of 17 games in 60 that he has played. using SIMPLE reasoning skills does this make sense? YES. Wow, I have just had my first lesson in reasoning skills 101. :ok:

now back to the thread topic which has transformed into a contract dispute of the highest calibre.

referring back to twinsister's stat reply where it lists 300 yd passing games, notice Carr has a big fat '0' next to his. strong arm?? when, where??

would someone please tell me where Carr ever threw an on target bomb downfield to show this strong arm of his?

thegr8fan
07-02-2006, 04:54 PM
oh I have seen him throw some deep pass's also. I just don't remember them being near enough to a reciever to be caught.:stirpot:

Winging one far downfield into the stands to avoid a sack is a good thing, and Carr should try that more often than he does running out of bounds with the ball still in his hands behind the LOS. It would be a welcome relief to see.:tease:

but I don't remember too many of his 'strong arm' pass's going far downfield and being caught.

and all you, 'he ain't got time due to the sack/ rush' save your fingers the exercise. I am particularly talking about those times when he has been able and just didn't see the reciever or didn't throw it on target.

TexansLucky13
07-02-2006, 05:17 PM
Another Carr thread :hides:

We finally got the one thing that he needed to grow.... an offensive minded coaching staff. End of story.

infantrycak
07-02-2006, 05:26 PM
referring back to twinsister's stat reply where it lists 300 yd passing games, notice Carr has a big fat '0' next to his. strong arm?? when, where??

You mean other than the 371 yds against TN in '03, or the 313 yds against Detroit in '04 or the 372 yds against MN in '04 or the spittin distance 293 yds against SL in "05 and 295 yds against Jax in '05? Granted there were very few--although I suspect there have been very few 300 yd games generally under Capers' teams.

would someone please tell me where Carr ever threw an on target bomb downfield to show this strong arm of his?

Well for instance in '04 he went 11 of 25 from 21-30 yds thrown (44%) and 8 of 18 from 31-40 yds thrown (44%) (by the way, almost all of these came in the 1st 9 games of 2004 before the O went to HS mode) as compared to Manning 21 of 48 from 21-30 yds (43.8%) and 7 of 14 from 31-40 yds (50%) or maybe compared to Donovan McNabb at the same time (with TO) 8 of 33 from 21-30 yds (24.2%) and 6 of 17 from 31-40 yds (35.3%). Maybe since he completes them at almost the same rate as Manning and better than McNabb, more need to be thrown.

AFD1717
07-02-2006, 07:10 PM
would someone please tell me where Carr ever threw an on target bomb downfield to show this strong arm of his?
Throwing an accurate deep ball and having a strong arm aren't the same thing. If you want to say Carr doesn't throw the deep ball well, I would at least listen to the arguement. I'd counter by saying that Carr usually over throws the deep passes that aren't caught (which is a good thing) and that obviously deep routes take more time to develop and we know the problem that leads to. I disagree, but I'll hear your arguement. If you are saying he doesn't have a strong arm - then, unless you have some powerful evidence to back that up, I'm writing you off as a hater. Carr has a cannon wether you like him or not.

thegr8fan
07-02-2006, 08:00 PM
most of Carr's deep pass's he gets credit for are from runs after the catch. without going through then entire 2004 record of play by plays, the biggest gains are usually the screen pass with a huge gain afterwards, so a 5 yd pass with a 40 yd run after.


there is the occasional 15 yd area pass, but those a very few and even more scarce is the legit 20+ yd pass. they exist, but they are very few and very far between. Most of Carr's big yardage stats are due to YAC, not his arm/ accuracy. the KC game in 2004, in reviewing the first 6 games of that season, is by far his best outing with deep pass's.

Throwing an accurate deep ball and having a strong arm aren't the same thing. that's what I come here for, such enlightening remarks. You got me there, I mean, obviously I was talking about Carrs inability to throw the ball a distance of 15 yds due to his wimpy arm muscles. :rolleyes:

anybody, even our Kicker could heave the ball downfield. You think perhaps accuracy on a deep/ long throw MIGHT, POSSIBLY, have something to do with the reason they are NOT QB's.

thegr8fan
07-02-2006, 08:06 PM
on a footnote, thanks cak for clearing up my error on the 300 yd game mistake. the stats supplied by twinsister that I used and didn't check myself, were obviously wrong.

the Minn. game was the best game I have seen Carr play to date. that game alone, bought him some time and even made me see some of that exhaulted 'potential' everyone talks about. Unfortunately it appears to be but a flash in the pan. A Fools gold type game that anyone at anytime can produce, but only once in their lifetime, in retrospect.

but probably his best game that I can remember and I was glad that I stayed till the end to see that comeback to take us to OT.

infantrycak
07-02-2006, 08:42 PM
the Minn. game was the best game I have seen Carr play to date.

But for that game and a couple others I would be more pessimistic (instead of cautiously optimistic). I firmly believe Capers and Co. put a clamp on the O after the Indy away game in 2004 as I posted in another thread showing how Carr formerly distributed the ball (68% to WR's other than AJ) and then abruptly stopped (33% to WR's other than AJ)--that was against weaker D's and spells coaching directive IMO. In the MN game Carr was hitting Armstrong in stride, hitting AJ in double coverage, etc. MN wasn't a good D but it was world's better than we saw against bad D's last year for the most part.

most of Carr's deep pass's he gets credit for are from runs after the catch. without going through then entire 2004 record of play by plays, the biggest gains are usually the screen pass with a huge gain afterwards, so a 5 yd pass with a 40 yd run after.

For clarification--the stats I listed above are not for the distance the play went--they are for the distance the ball went in the air. Yards after catch don't play a role in those stats.

thegr8fan
07-02-2006, 09:45 PM
since your better at diggin up numbers like those than I will ever be, I will take your word for it. but in looking back through the first 5 games, they don't show. You pointed to the first 9 games, and I am not seeing 8 plays over 30 yds in the air. Actually I counted 4 in the first 6 games. 3 in the KC game. Most of those to AJ actually, with an occasional Gaffney one.

perhaps they come in 1 pass per game.

it was kinda amazing to see Hollings and Davis running for over 30 yds in screen plays a couple of times. Just a thought for those who think Davis doesn't have the speed to go all the way. I think one of his runs for a TD, from memory got called back for holding once. Can't remember which game that was.

I will still contend though is that just like the 'Wells is a great special teams player' fantasy, it has yet to be proven that DC is a strong armed QB in the point of long pass's to WR's for a catch.

so my question really is who remembers a long pass-catch from DC to a WR in a game? I can't remember any from memory. Just wondered if someone on the boards had a better memory and could think of one.

infantrycak
07-02-2006, 11:57 PM
since your better at diggin up numbers like those than I will ever be, I will take your word for it. but in looking back through the first 5 games, they don't show. You pointed to the first 9 games, and I am not seeing 8 plays over 30 yds in the air. Actually I counted 4 in the first 6 games. 3 in the KC game. Most of those to AJ actually, with an occasional Gaffney one.

I don't have a specific recollection enough to rattle them off for you. I do recall, IMO the split in character between the pre-Indy games and post Indy games. In addition the stats for long passes and the recorded long pass per game support most of the long passes coming in the 1st 9 games. The point really being twofold--Carr hasn't thrown long as much as many QB's but when he has done so has been as successful as a couple of pro-bowl QB's. Doesn't mean he is a pro-bowler, just accuracy isn't what is holding him back.

I think one of his runs for a TD, from memory got called back for holding once. Can't remember which game that was.

Don't recall the game, but absolutely true. DD is overrated as a great back and underrated as a non-starting quality back on the MB. When healthy he is very good.

so my question really is who remembers a long pass-catch from DC to a WR in a game? I can't remember any from memory. Just wondered if someone on the boards had a better memory and could think of one.

Here is the danger of stats--I'll give you 2 from the 1st Texans' regular season game ever--neither reflected in the stats. Carr delivered the ball on target to Bradford who was interfered with to keep the reception from being made. He also delivered the ball to Lewis who dropped it. Carr has also overthrown his WR's many times. It's a combo of coaches not calling the long ball, Carr not seeing it or overthrowing it and the WR's not catching it. They have been there--just too few and far between.

JT--you are thinking of the November game against the Jags where Bradford dropped a pass to tie the game.

TK_Gamer
07-03-2006, 06:47 AM
two years ago against kc in kc, about 45 -50 yarder to corey bradford, i was at the game, we won that game btw. oh and a sweet leaping catch in the endzone that game by AJ, i think the score was 24 - 21

bigbrewster2000
07-03-2006, 10:00 AM
Forgive me.......



No I'm not. the contract is set up the way most NFL contracts are. the player's salary is relatively small... bonus's are larger....... usually, that latter years of the contract are higher salaries, but the player usually never sees it. the contract is usually renegotiated to another small salary big bonus deal. David, earned $1.4 million or something like that his first year or so.... Now he is in a part of his contract where he will earn a $5.something salary. He'll be getting payments per game, that will equal $5.something then he already got his Bonus...... $8 million. that's $13.something million that we've given David Carr to play football for the Houston Texans in 2006.




I'll admit that I haven't looked at the link yet, but I will. IIRC, Brees is getting a few million to play this year..... he's basically on a one year probation type thing...... if his shoulder prevents him from playing past 2006, the Saints don't owe him a thing, and should've drafted Vince............ or Matt, whatever.


I was just rattling off options, of guys with better stats that would cost us less than $13.something. or who were more than likely less than $7.25million cap liabilites.....



then I'm nuts......... Joey for $800,000 compared to Carr for $13.something million, or $7.25 million sounds like a sweet deal to me.

He won't ever see $10 million a year, where David's bank account will have grown over $13 million dollars from April 2006, to January 2007.

heavily back load the contract, so the player has to perform to get it.... but know that you'll force them to renegotiate so they never see that either. That's what happened with Steve McNair....... 'cept he wasn't having it.

David's contract was written to protect us. He was expected to be lighting up the NFL by now, and instead of us having to pay him a gazillion dollars, this option(which was our choice only) would have allowed us to keep him here for what should be considered a deal...... which would give us leverage when negotiating David's new multi-year deal. as it stands, he looks aweful expensive...... heck we could have signed a QB #1 overall in the draft for that kind of money.
Players dont get all of their bonus money at the front of their contract. That 8 mil is spread out over the 3 remaining years of his contract. So he is not getting 13 million this year even though that is technically his cap hit if he were cut. Please know your stuff before you attempt to spout off info.

infantrycak
07-03-2006, 10:46 AM
Players dont get all of their bonus money at the front of their contract. That 8 mil is spread out over the 3 remaining years of his contract. So he is not getting 13 million this year even though that is technically his cap hit if he were cut. Please know your stuff before you attempt to spout off info.

Yes Carr received his entire $8 mil option buy back bonus this year. On the Texans' payroll the entire amount will be reflected this year as money actually paid out. Under the salary cap accounting (this is only for accounting for the money on the salary cap and is not a reflection of when it is actually paid) rules, teams are permitted to pro-rate certain bonuses (signing bonuses, this buy back bonus) over the term of the contract--others such as roster bonuses are not prorated and go in their entirety on the cap for the year paid. Carr will receive $13 mil in cash this year but his cap hit bill be $7.2.

aj.
07-03-2006, 10:54 AM
Players dont get all of their bonus money at the front of their contract.
That 8 mil is spread out over the 3 remaining years of his contract. So he is not getting 13 million this year even though that is technically his cap hit if he were cut. Please know your stuff before you attempt to spout off info.

On the contrary, players typically receive bonus money as a lump sum when they sign their deals/extensions. Don't confuse payroll with cap accounting because they are two entirely different animals.

Carr's cap hit if he was hypothetically cut today would be $6 million. They accounted for $2 million of his $8 million bonus proration on the '05 cap. They could spread the remaining $6 million over two years if they wanted to.

Titan "Tack" Fan
07-03-2006, 10:57 AM
...people who supposedly know a little something about the game making statements like "David Carr is 18-46 as a starter." That statement is an idiot finder, and its always helpful to know who those people are, so that is the one redeeming value. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. It's the same sensation I get when I hear people STILL pronouncing Craig Biggio's last name as Beeegio...(see: Patrick, Dan) he has only been in the majors nineteen years... ...

Anyone who honesty believes that wins and losses can be fairly assigned to quarterbacks as they are to baseball pitchers could fit their knowledge of football on a kicking tee. Actually, it isn't always fair in baseball (see: Clemens, Rodger) much less football.
If you simply are not a fan of David Carr thats fine. There are legitimate points to be brought up regarding his performance, but don't attempt to pin all 46 losses on his shoulders just as he is not always the person most responsible for the wins ( example: Aaron Glenn scoring two touchdowns in Pittsburg). Assigning the wins & losses to the QB because his is the most visible position on the field is intellectualy lazy hence this rant..
David is 18-46 while he was leading the league in sacks three out of his four years in the league - all his fault, had nothing to do with a dishwater-weak line in front of him, zero playmakers sans Andre Johnson, and Fred Flinstone calling the plays.
Gee then I guess Ben Roethlisberger is 27-4. Its all Big Ben to be sure. The fact that he leads the league in fewest pass attempts by a starting quarterback would just be an "excuse" made by Steeler-haters. Add playmakers like Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Antwaan Randle El, & Heath Miller...oh and that ground game wasn't too bad either, to the "excuse list". Bill Cower - the best coach of his generation (who has done more with less year in & year out?), well he just happened to be there; clearly it was all Ben. Casey Hampton on defense along with Joey Porter, and that Polamalu guy - you may have heard of him - wait stop making "excuses"! It was Ben.

I mean, he is the quarterback after all... :spy:

Sorry, but coming from someone who has absolutely NOTHING against the Texans ... I think Carr is overrated by you guys. Ok so yeah, he was good in college. So was Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith ..... If Vince Young goes 17-60 or whatever it is I'm sure as hell not going to say he's a good pro quarterback.

If Carr does better this year I will be singing a different tune, but he's been around for a while now, so I'd say this year is his last chance.

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just giving my unbiased opinion.

Titan "Tack" Fan
07-03-2006, 11:23 AM
We all will see a different "tune" from DC this season I'll bet on that. With just GK being the Head Coach makes a complete turn around for the team as a whole. Now if, ya I said if he doesn't, which I doubt it at all, doesn't make any progress then really I would be speechless.:spy:

Kubiak is a bad mf'er.

HOU-TEX
07-03-2006, 11:27 AM
Sorry, but coming from someone who has absolutely NOTHING against the Texans ... I think Carr is overrated by you guys. Ok so yeah, he was good in college. So was Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith ..... If Vince Young goes 17-60 or whatever it is I'm sure as hell not going to say he's a good pro quarterback.

If Carr does better this year I will be singing a different tune, but he's been around for a while now, so I'd say this year is his last chance.

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just giving my unbiased opinion.

It's nice to have outsiders opinions on this paticular subject as it has filled most of the threads on the MB. I for one have thought DC has been tied down in years past and hasn't really had a chance to prove himself yet. There has been several times that I've thought he's made several mistakes in certain sinerios, but then I'd think, what if he wasn't put in that sinerio to began with. He has made bad decisions in bad situations, true. With that being said, when he's given ample time to read and make decisions he's done well. Until he's given that time on a consistant basis, the jury's still out for me.:redtowel:

MorKnolle
07-03-2006, 12:30 PM
since your better at diggin up numbers like those than I will ever be, I will take your word for it. but in looking back through the first 5 games, they don't show. You pointed to the first 9 games, and I am not seeing 8 plays over 30 yds in the air. Actually I counted 4 in the first 6 games. 3 in the KC game. Most of those to AJ actually, with an occasional Gaffney one.

perhaps they come in 1 pass per game.

it was kinda amazing to see Hollings and Davis running for over 30 yds in screen plays a couple of times. Just a thought for those who think Davis doesn't have the speed to go all the way. I think one of his runs for a TD, from memory got called back for holding once. Can't remember which game that was.

I will still contend though is that just like the 'Wells is a great special teams player' fantasy, it has yet to be proven that DC is a strong armed QB in the point of long pass's to WR's for a catch.

so my question really is who remembers a long pass-catch from DC to a WR in a game? I can't remember any from memory. Just wondered if someone on the boards had a better memory and could think of one.

Two passes in the Jax game from last year, one to AJ and one to Bradford are the first that come to mind. I remember one that he made a perfect throw to Bradford at the end of a game that Bradford dropped too. I'm in the process of rewatching all the games from last year (very painful so far) and I might record some of the more memorable clips onto my computer and post them on here whenever I get the time to do all that, so I'll keep an eye out for any long passes.

thunderkyss
07-03-2006, 12:46 PM
It's nice to have outsiders opinions on this paticular subject as it has filled most of the threads on the MB. I for one have thought DC has been tied down in years past and hasn't really had a chance to prove himself yet.


I've yet to compile the stats to prove my point, but I believe our offense has gotten simpler and simpler since our first year. After the 03 season, we've gotten to be quite Vanilla........ usually that's because of one thing.

However I'll give DAvid Carr the Benefit of the Doubt..... It's very possible, that Capers came to the conclusion of simplifing the offense for other reasons......... just like his idea of protecting the QB is utilizing a 1 step drop.

thegr8fan
07-03-2006, 12:47 PM
thanks morknolle. that would be gr8.

I was just wondering, honestly, if this was another MB myth, or does DC actually deliver most of his long pass's on target. I couldn't think of a single one I had seen and was thinking out out loud with that question. I mean, if the guy is known for having 'a cannon for an arm' wouldn't you think that most of his memorable games would have a memory or two of a long deep pass that made you go 'wow'?

when I think of Bledsoe with the Cowboys, actually when he was with the Patriots, I think of him having a 'cannon for an arm' and while I can't remember the specific games, I know I have seen him throwing some very good, very long pass's.

when I think of Carr, I get almost nothing. the only one I can honestly remember is the opening drive of the Cowboys game in 2002 and the pass interference call that Bradford got, and that was actually an incompletion, and Bradford had to make some adjustments to try and catch it, from memory.

I just don't recall from memory too many Carr bombs being completed, in 60 games.

Kaiser Toro
07-03-2006, 12:55 PM
thanks morknolle. that would be gr8.

I was just wondering, honestly, if this was another MB myth, or does DC actually deliver most of his long pass's on target. I couldn't think of a single one I had seen and was thinking out out loud with that question. I mean, if the guy is known for having 'a cannon for an arm' wouldn't you think that most of his memorable games would have a memory or two of a long deep pass that made you go 'wow'?

when I think of Bledsoe with the Cowboys, actually when he was with the Patriots, I think of him having a 'cannon for an arm' and while I can't remember the specific games, I know I have seen him throwing some very good, very long pass's.

when I think of Carr, I get almost nothing. the only one I can honestly remember is the opening drive of the Cowboys game in 2002 and the pass interference call that Bradford got, and that was actually an incompletion, and Bradford had to make some adjustments to try and catch it, from memory.

I just don't recall from memory too many Carr bombs being completed, in 60 games.

Perception is often reality. In my honest evaluation of Carr I do believe he has a strong arm, but I have not seen what I would categorize as a great deep ball. Granted he must have protection for that type of drop and it was not there often. Moreover, we had some drops by our WRs which usually trump an errant pass in the world of a fan. That all being said I am looking to see if Kubiak/Calhoun amend the way he throws his balls as I have not seen what I would consider a deep ball that a WR can run under.

thunderkyss
07-03-2006, 07:51 PM
When I am not being unfair to David Carr..... when I look at him objectively, I think of Drew Bledsoe.... I like Drew, I believe he will be going into the HOF first ballot.... he's a real nice guy, I've never heard him say one bad thing about anyone. He's got some wheels. People think he's a statue, because he doesn't run. But he can get it done when he needs to.

And that is not bad...... but Drew could've been a lot better, if his coaches(& fans) would've demanded more from him.

That's what I want from David. I don't want to see him put out a little effort, and be the next Bledsoe....... I want him to give everything he has on every play, of every down, so he can be everything his talent implies he can be.

Much better than Aikman, much better than Marino, Staubach, Bradshaw........ the likes that we haven't seen.......

TwinSisters
07-03-2006, 08:19 PM
Mister Thunderkyss,

Dear sir, it will behoof you to reclaim your statement that Drew Bledsoe 'has wheels'. This blasephemy has taken one step too far over the line. Recant or it's pistols at ten paces.

Yours Truely,
Houston's #1 "True" Fan

MorKnolle
07-03-2006, 08:24 PM
thanks morknolle. that would be gr8.

I was just wondering, honestly, if this was another MB myth, or does DC actually deliver most of his long pass's on target. I couldn't think of a single one I had seen and was thinking out out loud with that question. I mean, if the guy is known for having 'a cannon for an arm' wouldn't you think that most of his memorable games would have a memory or two of a long deep pass that made you go 'wow'?

when I think of Bledsoe with the Cowboys, actually when he was with the Patriots, I think of him having a 'cannon for an arm' and while I can't remember the specific games, I know I have seen him throwing some very good, very long pass's.

when I think of Carr, I get almost nothing. the only one I can honestly remember is the opening drive of the Cowboys game in 2002 and the pass interference call that Bradford got, and that was actually an incompletion, and Bradford had to make some adjustments to try and catch it, from memory.

I just don't recall from memory too many Carr bombs being completed, in 60 games.

I don't recall many but at the same time for the majority of his career it hasn't been much of a part of their offense, especially last year. They ran so few routes that were deeper than 10 yards in futile effort to get the ball out of his hands quicker to avoid sacks and ended up giving him too few options to look to throw the ball to and made it easier for opposing defenses to guard those few guys (remember Corey Bradford guarded himself anyways), so between the constant pressure on Carr and the very few times the coaches actually called a deep route there haven't been many. I've seen him float some over guys like any QB will have a few of, and I've seen some very nice passes too. He definitely has the ability, I just don't know how many reps he's actually had throwing those kind of routes up until now.

I don't see the comparison to Bledsoe, Carr has probably a stronger arm and is much more athletic. I would evaluate Carr as a young Brett Favre, probably a little bit more mobile. He just hasn't been given the opportunity to develop into the gunslinger-type of QB that he should be. We'll see if Kubiak does that for him.

TwinSisters
07-03-2006, 08:48 PM
Carr is like Favre and Bledsoe has wheels.

These two thoughts transpired and were transcribed on this very spot within 10 minutes of each other on July 3rd 2006.
-----


Bledsoe - holds on to the ball too long and gets sacked.
Carr- holds on to the ball too long and gets sacked or runs out of bounds.

Bledsoe is said to need a stout offensive line to work properly.
Carr is said to need a stout offensive line, two good WRs, good coaches, and the right plays called to work properly.

Bledsoe on his best day can barely break over a yard per carry. He has a grand total of 776 yards in 188 games.
Carr has a thousand in 60 games.

---

Brett Favre, strong arm and tough. That's the end of the Carr likeness.

Brett Favre was a party boy and a gambler. Carr is a house husband. Brett Favre and David Carr are night and day here, and it shows on the field. Favre will take his shots, Carr will wait for the safe toss. Favre has never thrown for less then 3,000 yards a season ( as a starter ). Carr struggles with one over 3,000 in 4 seasons played ( as a starter ).

powerfuldragon
07-03-2006, 09:43 PM
It also bugs me when people can't spell Roger. (see: first post)

:D:D:D

TwinSisters
07-03-2006, 10:21 PM
It also bugs me when people can't spell Roger. (see: first post)

That's baseball though. You can mess that up and it will not anger the football gods. If you say Bledsoe is highly mobile, as in a characteristic of having the said wheels, this ...this could be dangerous.

MorKnolle
07-03-2006, 10:32 PM
Carr is like Favre and Bledsoe has wheels.

These two thoughts transpired and were transcribed on this very spot within 10 minutes of each other on July 3rd 2006.
-----


Bledsoe - holds on to the ball too long and gets sacked.
Carr- holds on to the ball too long and gets sacked or runs out of bounds.

Bledsoe is said to need a stout offensive line to work properly.
Carr is said to need a stout offensive line, two good WRs, good coaches, and the right plays called to work properly.

Bledsoe on his best day can barely break over a yard per carry. He has a grand total of 776 yards in 188 games.
Carr has a thousand in 60 games.

---

Brett Favre, strong arm and tough. That's the end of the Carr likeness.

Brett Favre was a party boy and a gambler. Carr is a house husband. Brett Favre and David Carr are night and day here, and it shows on the field. Favre will take his shots, Carr will wait for the safe toss. Favre has never thrown for less then 3,000 yards a season ( as a starter ). Carr struggles with one over 3,000 in 4 seasons played ( as a starter ).

Favre and Carr have similar abilities on the field, although Carr is more cautious and Favre has been more willing to take chances. I was not at all comparing their off-field behavior. Favre has obviously had a lot more success than David Carr has to this point in time, but they are pretty similar QBs and Carr should be able to do just what Favre has done, although Kubiak's offense will run the ball more than Favre's did during the peak of his career, and Carr is more mobile than Favre ever was. Carr is a mixture of Jake Plummer's mobility and Brett Favre's arm.

thunderkyss
07-04-2006, 12:18 AM
Bledsoe is reluctant to run....... and often times, when he decides to go, it is too late, and we see the results. But if you've ever watched him....... he's got career longs of 8, 9, 11, 15...... he even has one for 25 yards. Bledsoe just doesn't want to run, and I don't think he should have to.

Looking at Carr's college numbers, people would draw the same conclusion. But here in Houston, he's learned that he's got to run...... and it doesn't help him, if he makes that decision too late.

Of the two QBs that came out in 2002, the one that reminds me most of Favre, is Joey Harrington. Joey doesn't have the arm that Favre or Carr has, but he's got that never say never attitude, that makes him never give up on a play. he buys time for his offense to make something happen.

It's not a knock on Carr, but so far, when he leaves the pocket, I believe he's thinking of getting out of bounds, or picking up the yards. He might get lucky every now and again with making a big play...... but I don't think it's part of his game.

Like I said, it's not a knock on David..... Peyton, Byron, Palmer, Bledsoe, Kurt..... there are a lot of QBs that make it happen from the pocket. No reason to believe Carr can't.

If Kubiak can make it work with Carr(moving the pocket), I'll admit that I was wrong. But I think Carr will be at his best, if he can be taught to go through his progression(given time) or chunking it when he gets in trouble. There's nothing wrong with throwing it in the dirt if that's where it needs to go.

TwinSisters
07-04-2006, 01:55 AM
Favre and Carr have similar abilities on the field, although Carr is more cautious and Favre has been more willing to take chances. I was not at all comparing their off-field behavior. Favre has obviously had a lot more success than David Carr has to this point in time, but they are pretty similar QBs and Carr should be able to do just what Favre has done, although Kubiak's offense will run the ball more than Favre's did during the peak of his career, and Carr is more mobile than Favre ever was. Carr is a mixture of Jake Plummer's mobility and Brett Favre's arm.

There are enough books and film out on Favre ( written by him, his mom, his pops, sports writers, and even his own TE, to include freakin Terry Bradshaw ) to say that his attitude off the field relates directly to how he approaches the game. He will throw 5 INTs for 3 TDs.

True... we cannot say this about Carr. We have to guess with Carr! Because there is little to nothing ever printed about him or talked about his game to great length ( the infinite Carr thread does not count ).

A typical team runs around 1,100 plays in a season. But for easy math, we will just round that down to 1,000 plays ( maybe to rid the spike and sit downs )

Normal teams as of late usually run close to a 500/500 Pass to Run ratio.

A WC team might have something like 600 to 400.

So Favre would have something like an extra 100 attempts at 60% and 7 yards a play for 420 yards.

Adding an extra 420 yards to Carr's numbers for the past 4 years still leaves him short of 3,000 yards 3 seasons and 1 season short of 4,000 yards.
---

Carr is not a Favre... he is a ******* mystery. Arm strength puts him on level with a lot of different QBs to include Bledsoe, Simms, Collins, etc. To say he is like a Favre is more wishful thinking then anything practical or tangible.
---

There was some argument going on a few threads back about whether or not Carr is the leader of the team. I did run across this article that had quotes in it from Wong and Billy Miller stating clearly that Carr was the leader of the team and that he wasn't the problem things were going south. I think it was dated around the beginning of last season or the end of the 2004 one. Miller said something about if fans could break film down with us, then they wouldn't be pointing the finger at Carr.
----

Mr.Thunderkyss,

So now you want to say he doesn't want to run? Unless he has a 50 Yard head start in the 4th quarter running against a deep prevent?

Peyton Manning has one for 33 Yards? Are we going to say he should be reclassified as "mobile"?

mmm I am thinking not. I am thinking you should... should just take that back. Bledsoe is not mobile, man. TAKE it back. Look at several QBs in the NFL. Collins, Detmer, even Brad Johnson has some 20 yard breaks.

But they are not mobile.

NATHANHALE
07-04-2006, 02:10 AM
Bledsoe is reluctant to run....... and often times, when he decides to go, it is too late, and we see the results. But if you've ever watched him....... he's got career longs of 8, 9, 11, 15...... he even has one for 25 yards. Bledsoe just doesn't want to run, and I don't think he should have to.

Looking at Carr's college numbers, people would draw the same conclusion. But here in Houston, he's learned that he's got to run...... and it doesn't help him, if he makes that decision too late.

Of the two QBs that came out in 2002, the one that reminds me most of Favre, is Joey Harrington. Joey doesn't have the arm that Favre or Carr has, but he's got that never say never attitude, that makes him never give up on a play. he buys time for his offense to make something happen.

It's not a knock on Carr, but so far, when he leaves the pocket, I believe he's thinking of getting out of bounds, or picking up the yards. He might get lucky every now and again with making a big play...... but I don't think it's part of his game.

Like I said, it's not a knock on David..... Peyton, Byron, Palmer, Bledsoe, Kurt..... there are a lot of QBs that make it happen from the pocket. No reason to believe Carr can't.

If Kubiak can make it work with Carr(moving the pocket), I'll admit that I was wrong. But I think Carr will be at his best, if he can be taught to go through his progression(given time) or chunking it when he gets in trouble. There's nothing wrong with throwing it in the dirt if that's where it needs to go.


...good post!!

NATHANHALE
07-04-2006, 02:31 AM
IMO, there has been some good discussion on this thread. My problem with Carr and this new offense is that--yes, he can run in the open field--but he has had trouble getting away from the rush and has never ever been known as a QB that consistently 'throws on the run.' In other words, his mobility has been limited and has only applied to running with the ball, not throwing while on the run. As Twin Sisters said-even after 4 yrs-Carr is a mystery. We don't know how quickly he learns new things, for example, and we don't know how much of his so-so play is to blame on him or other factors. Saying this, IMO our new offense may not be a 'walk in the park' for the players to execute because few have experienced it. How much different is it for a receiver to catch a ball from a QB on the run or the lineman to block? I'm not sure but I think Plummer threw on the run before he went to Denver--Carr was strictly a drop-back passer in college, did'nt even avg a yd per carry rushing--67yds rushing his SR yr. To say the least, it's going to be interesting this year...

TheCD
07-04-2006, 10:05 AM
The problem I have with that comparison is that Bledsoe had Parcells when he started out in New England and Favre had Mike Holmgren to show him the ropes.


Of course, both those coaches have won Super Bowls...but that doesn't mean anything, because David Carr has had Dom Capers teaching him, so he's exactly in line with where his development should be right now...

NATHANHALE
07-04-2006, 10:29 AM
The problem I have with that comparison is that Bledsoe had Parcells when he started out in New England and Favre had Mike Holmgren to show him the ropes.


Of course, both those coaches have won Super Bowls...but that doesn't mean anything, because David Carr has had Dom Capers teaching him, so he's exactly in line with where his development should be right now...

...so what about QB's that did well and had lousy coaches? Have there been any?

TwinSisters
07-04-2006, 10:30 AM
Bledsoe had Chris Palmer as his QBs coach

will have to look to see how long they were together

1993-95 WR's coach 96 QB Coach.. so somebody else was helping him out. Weiss was the TE's coach.

( can't find the QB coach fast enough )

Mike Price was his college coach

TheCD
07-04-2006, 10:57 AM
I'm not saying that there's never been a QB in the league that hasn't flourished despite bad coaching...but you show me a hall of famer that had bad coaching and you're likely to see a guy who didn't play to the top of his abilities until he had a great coach come in.

Kaiser Toro
07-04-2006, 10:58 AM
Since there are many new to this debate I will go ahead and throw a statement question out. Carr was the #1 pick in the draft and went to an expansion team where there were issues with coaching and the Oline. But at some point you would think that we would see flashes of brilliance that would make you say, "Wow! I can't wait until we get that guy more weapons or he matures." I know I have not said this, but I have said it about Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson.

I honestly have never seen the guy make a throw or do anything where he blew me away. The Vikings game in 2004 was the only one where I left thinking this is the game that Carr turned it around. I realize the issues and the challenges he has, but he has never blown me away with the talent and tenacity the Carr supporters talk of. At least Jake Plummer was entertaining on a bad team due to him helping his team get behind, but then orchestrating comebacks.

thunderkyss
07-04-2006, 11:28 AM
Since there are many new to this debate I will go ahead and throw a statement question out. Carr was the #1 pick in the draft and went to an expansion team where there were issues with coaching and the Oline. But at some point you would think that we would see flashes of brilliance that would make you say, "Wow! I can't wait until we get that guy more weapons or he matures." I know I have not said this, but I have said it about Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson.


I agree.... a lot of people want to compare Carr's situation with Plummer's. but I don't think there is any comparison. Plummer IMHO, was able to do things in Arizona, similar to what McNabb has done in Philly.

Other than McNabb, Philly has no offense....... but they've built a formidable D. They also had continuity from one season to the next, on both sides of the ball, and a coach who could win the close ones for them.

Arizona has never to my knowledge had a WR & a RB to work with Plummer. Not at the same time. They've had a WR...... the only RB I can remember them having while Jake was there, was Pittman, but they didn't wait on him to develop...

But when the Arizona Cardinals won football games, it was because Jake Plummer won many of them..... I understand there were 11 guys on the field, if you can't understand how one guy can win a football game, then I don't know what to say to you. But Jake Plummer won a lot of games for Arizona.... Just like McNabb has won a lot of games for the Eagles.....

TwinSisters
07-04-2006, 11:53 AM
I'm not saying that there's never been a QB in the league that hasn't flourished despite bad coaching...but you show me a hall of famer that had bad coaching and you're likely to see a guy who didn't play to the top of his abilities until he had a great coach come in.

Dan Fouts is the marquee example here.

He is in the Hall of Fame and credits the coaching change. ( also credits his struggles to coaches )
----

Warren Moon bad coaching, still HOF for the counter example.

MorKnolle
07-04-2006, 12:16 PM
Since there are many new to this debate I will go ahead and throw a statement question out. Carr was the #1 pick in the draft and went to an expansion team where there were issues with coaching and the Oline. But at some point you would think that we would see flashes of brilliance that would make you say, "Wow! I can't wait until we get that guy more weapons or he matures." I know I have not said this, but I have said it about Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson.

I honestly have never seen the guy make a throw or do anything where he blew me away. The Vikings game in 2004 was the only one where I left thinking this is the game that Carr turned it around. I realize the issues and the challenges he has, but he has never blown me away with the talent and tenacity the Carr supporters talk of. At least Jake Plummer was entertaining on a bad team due to him helping his team get behind, but then orchestrating comebacks.

As I've posted on another thread, I'm in the process of re-watching all of last year's games, and so far I have been pleasantly surprised with Carr's performance compared to what I remembered feeling at the time. I see several instances of great promise, mixed in with the most ridiculous offensive system I've ever seen run. On every single series it literally is run on 1st down, run on 2nd down, then have to pass on 3rd and long when every team knows that we have to pass and we can't protect the QB so they bring blitzes. Not many (if any) players could enjoy any kind of success running that crap). The few times we went out of the box and threw the ball not out of necessity we had good success (Mathis' TD catch against the Browns for instance). I've watches 4-5 games so far, and while it has been painful to rewatch the garbage that we were running, it has helped boost my faith in David Carr to become the QB we need him to be, and I've seen some good play out of several other players that I had somewhat forgotten about that are still on the team (I've been pleasantly reminded of Shantee Orr, Robaire Smith, and especially Dunta Robinson on several occasions).

As for the David Carr comparisons, as I've said before he obviously has not had the level of success that Brett Favre has in terms of either team success or personal statistics, but a young Brett Favre is the best modern comparison to the type of player that David Carr is (Carr is also fairly similar to a young John Elway in terms of his ability although Elway's teams also enjoyed much more success early on), and hopefully now that we have a more competent staff he will develop into the QB that Favre has become, and hopefully without the propensity to force too many plays and throw too many INTs.

Kaiser Toro
07-04-2006, 12:26 PM
Appreciate your on the spot reporting Mork given the hell you are putting yourself through again. All I can picture is you sitting in a dark room with a reel to reel projector from my 1980 science class watching film of a 2-14 team. The people on this board that go back and actually watch those games, I am one of them during the season, are much like a football spin off of Opus Dei, subjecting ourselves to unimagnable punishment to find reason, yet yielding more questions.

A play here and a play there are expected by a first round pick in his fourth year. Are my expectations to high of the guy that he can string more than one game together?

MorKnolle
07-04-2006, 12:37 PM
Appreciate your on the spot reporting Mork given the hell you are putting yourself through again. All I can picture is you sitting in a dark room with a reel to reel projector from my 1980 science class watching film of a 2-14 team. The people on this board that go back and actually watch those games, I am one of them during the season, are much like a football spin off of Opus Dei, subjecting ourselves to unimagnable punishment to find reason, yet yielding more questions.

A play here and a play there are expected by a first round pick in his fourth year. Are my expectations to high of the guy that he can string more than one game together?

Not at all, I expect great things out of Carr in the coming years. If I can manage to record some of these clips onto my computer I might post some either directly on here or on another website and link them here, assuming that doesn't constitute a copyright infringement by doing so. Either way the process of trying to record them (much less just watching them) is taking a very long time.

TwinSisters
07-04-2006, 01:13 PM
The people on this board that go back and actually watch those games, I am one of them during the season, are much like a football spin off of Opus Dei, subjecting ourselves to unimagnable punishment to find reason, yet yielding more questions.


ahhhh................

thunderkyss
07-04-2006, 02:27 PM
Not at all, I expect great things out of Carr in the coming years. If I can manage to record some of these clips onto my computer I might post some either directly on here or on another website and link them here, assuming that doesn't constitute a copyright infringement by doing so. Either way the process of trying to record them (much less just watching them) is taking a very long time.


I wish I had the fore-sight to record all the games..... I know I come into these arguments with no evidence to support my point of view. But too many times this year, I kept asking my TV set, "what the heck are you doing?" or "why'd you do that" and it was usually directed to Carr.

There is a thread on this MB somewhere, I can't find it, but I asked if 2005 would be the do or die year for Carr...... no excuses....... I had many members here agree that he'll get no excuses...... but I can't find that thread either. This was before the 2005 season mind you. but it's gone...... some kinda conspiracy.

I also believe, if anyone really wanted to, they'd be able to put together a highlight reel of almost anyone, that would garner that player a spot in the probowl.......... Aaron Brookes, Joey Harrington, Anthony Wright, David Garrard........ so.... what's the point??

aj.
07-04-2006, 02:41 PM
I record all the games and watch them again at least once during the week after the game. Television replay is sometimes quite revealing but overall, there are major limitations to what you can deduce from network replays. Not knowing the playcall and options as designed is the biggest thing. Seeing a guy that "obviously missed a block" on a CBS replay may not be reflective of the truth when you don't know the assignments in the first place, unless it's in cases where it's obvious. It's very difficult to 'grade' WRs and DBs without coaches tape - likewise it's very difficult to 'grade' a QB without knowing the playcall, his progressions and the route mix, protections, (or having a playbook in hand and understanding it as you toggle between << and >>. When taken in that context, making observations from tv replay can be informative - mainly because it's better than nothing.

Kaiser Toro
07-04-2006, 02:59 PM
There is a thread on this MB somewhere, I can't find it, but I asked if 2005 would be the do or die year for Carr...... no excuses....... I had many members here agree that he'll get no excuses...... but I can't find that thread either. This was before the 2005 season mind you. but it's gone...... some kinda conspiracy.

I did an advanced search and there is plenty there. I tried looking for some of your posts amongst the multitide of threads, but there is just to much. Maybe one of the admins can direct you on how to use the search feature better than I.

thunderkyss
07-04-2006, 03:25 PM
I did an advanced search and there is plenty there. I tried looking for some of your posts amongst the multitide of threads, but there is just to much. Maybe one of the admins can direct you on how to use the search feature better than I.

no....... it doesn't matter...... it's like pooring lemon juice on a papercut...

I'm trying to cut back........ honestly.

The Pencil Neck
07-04-2006, 10:55 PM
I agree.... a lot of people want to compare Carr's situation with Plummer's. but I don't think there is any comparison. Plummer IMHO, was able to do things in Arizona, similar to what McNabb has done in Philly.

Other than McNabb, Philly has no offense.......<snip>

When the Arizona Cardinals won football games, it was because Jake Plummer won many of them..... I understand there were 11 guys on the field, if you can't understand how one guy can win a football game, then I don't know what to say to you. But Jake Plummer won a lot of games for Arizona.... Just like McNabb has won a lot of games for the Eagles.....

While he was there, the Cards went 4-12, 9-7, 6-10, 3-13, 7-9, 5-11. I don't know which of those games he started. His one shining season was 98 when the Cards went to the playoffs and he had a 75 QB rating and a 17-20 touch to intercept ratio.

I was a huge fan of Jake's coming out of college. We lived in Phoenix for a while and we were Cardinals fans for awhile. We still want them to do well. But... Jake's problem was that he lost more games for you than he won. I wouldn't put him in the same league as McNabb. Granted, Jake was trying to put the team on his shoulders and carry them but he got into the habit of slinging interceptions and forcing balls. He created his own problems in a lot of instances. He had some exciting come-backs but frequently the team was down because of his poor decisions in the first place.

He had the one season where he led the Cards to the playoffs for the first time in a zillion years but after that, he really wasn't successful. He had one year where he had a 50 quarterback rating. He's had 5 seasons of 20 or more interceptions.

After going to Denver, his QB rating jumped from the mid-60's to the low 90's. I would LOVE to see that sort of turn around with DC.

The Pencil Neck
07-04-2006, 10:58 PM
There is a thread on this MB somewhere, I can't find it, but I asked if 2005 would be the do or die year for Carr...... no excuses....... I had many members here agree that he'll get no excuses...... but I can't find that thread either. This was before the 2005 season mind you. but it's gone...... some kinda conspiracy.


No excuses... unless the play calling is like rilly, rilly bad. :)

thunderkyss
07-16-2006, 02:27 PM
While he was there, the Cards went 4-12, 9-7, 6-10, 3-13, 7-9, 5-11. I don't know which of those games he started. His one shining season was 98 when the Cards went to the playoffs and he had a 75 QB rating and a 17-20 touch to intercept ratio.


you missed the point.......... it's not about QB rating, or stats... or wins and losses.....

But when the Arizona Cardinals went 3-13, they won those three games because of Jake Plummer. more than likely, just like the Eagles lose many games because of McNabb, Jake lost some as well.... but Jake won their games, bottom line.

DocBar
07-16-2006, 02:34 PM
you missed the point.......... it's not about QB rating, or stats... or wins and losses.....

But when the Arizona Cardinals went 3-13, they won those three games because of Jake Plummer. more than likely, just like the Eagles lose many games because of McNabb, Jake lost some as well.... but Jake won their games, bottom line.
How many of those 13 losses can be laid at Jake's feet? I don't know as I'm not a big fan of his. IMO, he tries too hard to be Bret Favre...another overrated QB(also IMHO) who gambles too much and made his living and a large part of his rep off of Sportscenter.

TK_Gamer
07-16-2006, 02:46 PM
I like Jake too, but he tries so hard to make plays sometimes he kills his own momentum. I dont really know how to put it in words , "desperate enthusiasm"?? the playoffs this year were a great example. but since i dont know what the original playcalls were I cant really blame him directly. Carr on the other hand can be blamed at least indirectly for his scoot oob he likes so much. but i guess if i got sacked 300 times i might overeact too :(

The Pencil Neck
07-16-2006, 03:07 PM
you missed the point.......... it's not about QB rating, or stats... or wins and losses.....

But when the Arizona Cardinals went 3-13, they won those three games because of Jake Plummer. more than likely, just like the Eagles lose many games because of McNabb, Jake lost some as well.... but Jake won their games, bottom line.

Well, you're contradicting yourself. It's not about wins and losses but it's about the games that Plummer won for them? Huh?

In any case, I don't agree with you. When I was watching their games. I always felt like he was costing them a lot more than he was winning for them and my wife and I were Cardinal/Plummer fans at that time. He made a lot of bad decisions that cost them games. At least, that's the way I saw it.

thunderkyss
07-17-2006, 07:56 AM
How many of those 13 losses can be laid at Jake's feet? I don't know as I'm not a big fan of his. IMO, he tries too hard to be Bret Favre...another overrated QB(also IMHO) who gambles too much and made his living and a large part of his rep off of Sportscenter.

I never put him and Bret Favre in the same category.... I don't really like Bret, but after so long, you have to admit that it isn't luck.

I guess, Bret has that extra something that makes his team mates try that little bit harder, making those amazing plays possible. He also had Sterling Sharpe for a good part of his glory years.

out of the 12 losses, how many were Jake's Fault?? a few for sure, but "everyone" usually says he had no help, so he'd get a pass.....

They went through a couple of coaches, changing everything but the QB... I think Jake was a SunDevil, and the owner wanted to keep him, and make it work, because of that........ I still don't believe Jake was the problem on that team, but getting rid of him was probably best for both parties.

TheOgre
07-17-2006, 08:25 AM
...people who supposedly know a little something about the game making statements like "David Carr is 18-46 as a starter." That statement is an idiot finder, and its always helpful to know who those people are, so that is the one redeeming value. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. It's the same sensation I get when I hear people STILL pronouncing Craig Biggio's last name as Beeegio...(see: Patrick, Dan) he has only been in the majors nineteen years... ...

I can relate to that. One of my pet peeves is people that spell Pittsburgh incorrectly. It is a two sport town with one team that is in our division (if you call the Pirates a team) and the other was our biggest divisional rival (Steelers) in the city's favorite sport.


If you simply are not a fan of David Carr thats fine. There are legitimate points to be brought up regarding his performance, but don't attempt to pin all 46 losses on his shoulders just as he is not always the person most responsible for the wins ( example: Aaron Glenn scoring two touchdowns in Pittsburg).

Kaiser Toro
07-17-2006, 09:35 AM
I could easily see how someone who sees a last name like Biggio that is familiar with language and pronounce it as the Italians would. Moreover, Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania could be spelled by someone who is from Pittsburg, KS without the H if they had never learned anything outside of thier locale.