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View Full Version : Texans doing too much, too soon in Kubiaks first season with conversion to 4-3 ?


nunusguy
06-21-2006, 07:45 AM
With what Kubiak has done for the offense in his very first year, I'm already
of the opinion that his hiring is a success, though that's obviously a premature conclusion on my part. But by bringing in FA Flanahan and drafting
Spencer & Winston, and giving Wand another chance to develope, he's given
more reason to be optimistic about the OL that the former regime did in 4 yrs.
And getting a legit #2 WR in Moulds, plus a real pass receiveing TE in Putzier
and the rookie Daniels has given us more reason to be hopeful about the passing game than ever before. And with all these new offensive weapons and the kinda coaching Carr is getting from Kubiaks himself, theres hope that Carr can finally realize his full potential.
But how about a more gradual conversion to the 4-3 ? Afterall we've been drafting 3-4 for 4 years now, and our 2 top picks this year are D guys who
could play the 3-4 as well as the 4-3. And the maybe another year of FA and another college Draft to get all the pieces we need for a better chance of success in the 4-3 ?
How 'bout a starting front seven in the 3-4 for '06 from these players:
Mario & Weaver @ DEs & Seth Payne @ NT, DeMeco & Greenwood @ inside
LBs, with a corp of OLBs to choose from that includes Babin, Orr, Peek, &
Anderson ?

Exascor
06-21-2006, 08:31 AM
But how about a more gradual conversion to the 4-3 ?The Texans had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last season. The Texans 3-4 was the worst I've ever seen hit the field. No pressure, no turnovers and weak against the run. Those are all supposed to be the strengths of the 3-4. Why not trash the garbage system and begin using the 4-3 now? Did the Texans have some great 3-4 players? No. The time to change is now.

texan279
06-21-2006, 08:33 AM
Shouldn't be a problem. Most of the guys on our defense now either came from 4-3 teams or played in the 4-3 when drafted by us, guys like Babin, TJ, Wong, Robaire, and others all played in the 4-3 before coming here.

GP
06-21-2006, 08:51 AM
I don't, and never will, think that the 3-4 is a good scheme.

Some say it's how we used it, or how we staffed players into it.

I say it's an overrated scheme. And those who point to Steelers or Pats...hold on a second: Those teams still incorporate a fourth down lineman on several plays, making it a 4-3 if you ask me.

How anyone can think that 3 down linemen trying to "tie up" four offensive linemen is a real head scratcher to me. The theory goes that you can use a NT to tie up two linemen and thus have your other defenders overwhelm the offensive line which is now supposed to be outnumbered because the NT "tied up" two linemen. Sure. :ok:

IMO, in today's NFL--with offensive linemen getting bigger, faster, and stronger--you gotta' put four-on-four and THEN pray that your LBs and CBs can run up and take on the TE and/or blocking RBs to engage the ball carrier.

No, I think the 4-3 is going to provide at least (AT LEAST) an upgrade for us. We might not be in the top 3 at the end of the year...but we'll dang sure be better on D.

Seņor Stan
06-21-2006, 09:12 AM
Here is Texans D-line coach Bob Karmelowicz's view on the 4-3 vs. 3-4...

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=2435

Karmelowicz, who sometimes uses martial arts as a teaching method, describes the 4-3 defense that the Texans will use as more predictable than the 3-4, but easier to apply. Because of that, there should be fewer discrepancies regarding assignment, but players will have to work harder during film sessions.

“I just think things are a little more defined in a 4-3,” he said. “You’re limited in some of the tricky stuff, but who cares? You have to make a decision sometimes whether you want to trick them or do you want to identify where their problems are and find out how they are compensating for their problems so you know where their weaknesses are. There are two ways to get somebody.”

Earlier in the article (written before the draft) Karmelowicz was concerned about the pass rush from the DE....

The past two seasons, he tutored defensive end Jared Allen, a former fourth-round pick from Idaho State. In 31 career games, Allen, who Karmelowicz calls a “glass eater” for his toughness, made 20 sacks, which is tied for the fourth most in the AFC in that period.

Karmelowicz wonders whether the Texans have that type of edge speed rusher, like Allen, who can wreak havoc in opposing backfields.

I think Mario fits that bill pretty well. I also like the fact the Karmelowicz is such a good teacher. If he can take a fourth rounder from Idaho St. to that llevel, just think what he can do with Mario!

Bearfan Blue and Orange
06-21-2006, 09:22 AM
I think if you ask just about any Defensive player, they prefer to play a 4-3 defense versus a 3-4 defense.

The 4-3 defense allows the players to be more agressive and disciplined with their assignments. With a 3-4 defense there has to be a team that is always on the same page and knows instictively what the other is doing and going to be effective.

This defensive roster is made to be a 4-3 defense and not a 3-4 defense. That is the coaching staff from before error in assessing the talent. To be a successful coach you have to realize when to make a change in schemes for your players to be effective not change your players to YOUR scheme. You build off their strengths and SET THEM UP TO SUCCEED, NOT SET UP TO FAIL!!

The last coaching staff set these athletes up for FAILURE!!!

You will see the talent the Texans have, but have not been organized to play their strengths until this new staff has come in.

AFD1717
06-21-2006, 09:23 AM
The 3-4 scheme is a very good system, but we are a shining example of the fact that just because guys have the measurables to be good 3-4 players doesn't mean they will be. Babin, Johnson, Peek, Wong, Smith, and a host of other guys have the ability to excel in the 3-4 but you have to play your position completely differently than a 4-3. That isn't something they are all willing (or able) to do. As was mentioned before, most of our guys came from 4-3 defenses and that is the system that made them millionaires. Not easy to get them to abandon that. Some players take to it and some don't. We don't have the personnel to play a 3-4 on a regular basis.

Double Barrel
06-21-2006, 10:07 AM
The 3-4 requires exceptional players and depth at every position to be successful. That's why you can use the Patriots and Steelers as examples. They've got both.

But on a mediocre team, the 3-4 becomes a burden. Without a dominant d-line, running against it becomes rather easy with only 3 big guys up front. Then you need your LBs to be quick - both in proactive coverage of their assignments and reactive with the flow of the play - but we didn't have those kind of payers, either. The first year we had a lot of veteran players than adapted, so it was mildly successful. But our coaches were unable to mold the new talent into a cohesive unit, and the 3-4 only served to highlight our weaknesses.

I'm stoked we've gone to a 4-3. It might be a bit more predictable, but when it works and your players form a solid unit, it can be a tough defense to beat. Putting pressure on the pocket and stuffing the run are concepts that we have not seen around these parts in quite awhile, and I'm really looking forward to getting back to some basic fundamentals that were severely lacking on this team last year.

wicked_wayz
06-21-2006, 10:12 AM
[QUOTE=gpshafer_1976]I don't, and never will, think that the 3-4 is a good scheme.

Some say it's how we used it, or how we staffed players into it.

I say it's an overrated scheme. And those who point to Steelers or Pats...hold on a second: Those teams still incorporate a fourth down lineman on several plays, making it a 4-3 if you ask me.

How anyone can think that 3 down linemen trying to "tie up" four offensive linemen is a real head scratcher to me. The theory goes that you can use a NT to tie up two linemen and thus have your other defenders overwhelm the offensive line which is now supposed to be outnumbered because the NT "tied up" two linemen. Sure. :ok:

IMO, in today's NFL--with offensive linemen getting bigger, faster, and stronger--you gotta' put four-on-four and THEN pray that your LBs and CBs can run up and take on the TE and/or blocking RBs to engage the ball carrier.
QUOTE]
it really depends on the type of players suited in playing the scheme take for example travis johnson, he never suited playing in a 3-4 and it showed, he was better of playing in a 4-3 system....even richard smith (once he evaluated our defence) said that we were more suited in utilizing the 4-3

i believe the 3-4 is a good scheme, in fact im a fan of that type of defence, i just love the thought of the oline not knowing who's the forth pass rusher. like last year nfc champions seahawk, they score the least amount of points against teams that uses the 3-4 (apart from houston)

it takes a while for it to be successful though especially for a expansion team like the texans. take for instance pittsburg, they have used this scheme for how long now, they have perfected it over the years and are the masters of the 3-4 scheme. in fact for the past 3 years the teams that have won the superbowl uses the 3-4 scheme.

TwinSisters
06-21-2006, 11:20 AM
[QUOTE][I]
it really depends on the type of players suited in playing the scheme take for example travis johnson, he never suited playing in a 3-4 and it showed, he was better of playing in a 4-3 system....even richard smith (once he evaluated our defence) said that we were more suited in utilizing the 4-3

Ahh... looks like another Casserly fingerprint. You have 3-4 gurus and players assembled to play 4-3 numbnut style.

HomeBred_Texan
06-21-2006, 11:24 AM
The Texans had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last season. The Texans 3-4 was the worst I've ever seen hit the field. No pressure, no turnovers and weak against the run. Those are all supposed to be the strengths of the 3-4. Why not trash the garbage system and begin using the 4-3 now? Did the Texans have some great 3-4 players? No. The time to change is now.
I agree, Out with old and in with the new. It is a proven fact that Casserly and Capers blew it. So let's move on and I enjoy seeing what they are doing on defense this year. Like a breath of fresh air...

Bearfan Blue and Orange
06-21-2006, 01:56 PM
Just with the player improvements, coaching changes, better direction. I see this Defense ranking 16 or better. Once I see them play some and go through training camp, and a couple games, I will make a better assessment.

hollywood_texan
06-21-2006, 02:25 PM
3-4 provides more deception in schemes. Meaning, it should be harder for the quarterback to read the defense.

El Tejano
06-21-2006, 02:26 PM
Change is good. Change is good.

TexanFan881
06-21-2006, 02:30 PM
Change is good. Change is good.

Especially for a 2-14 team :stirpot: :mario:

MorKnolle
06-21-2006, 02:36 PM
The Texans had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last season. The Texans 3-4 was the worst I've ever seen hit the field. No pressure, no turnovers and weak against the run. Those are all supposed to be the strengths of the 3-4. Why not trash the garbage system and begin using the 4-3 now? Did the Texans have some great 3-4 players? No. The time to change is now.

Agree, if they're wanting to run a 4-3 defense for the long-term they shouldn't waste a year formulating and teaching some version of a 3-4 just to change it a year down the road. I think our team is built quite nicely for a 4-3 right now, and we could run some 3-4 if they really want to throw those in there on occasion.

TexanFan881
06-21-2006, 02:42 PM
Anyone think that maybe we run a little 3-4 this year? Maybe to confuse the opposing offenses? Just to mix things up a little bit. We've got players that can play in the 3-4. Just an "out there" thought :hmmm:

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 02:51 PM
Anyone think that maybe we run a little 3-4 this year? Maybe to confuse the opposing offenses? Just to mix things up a little bit. We've got players that can play in the 3-4. Just an "out there" thought :hmmm:

It's not out there at all--they have already said the 4-3 will be the standard set but they will mix in 3-4. Just a reverse of last year when they ran a 3-4 base but frequently moved into a 4-3 look.

Meloy
06-21-2006, 04:08 PM
Ok, first we draft a player or sign a free agent that is good in 4-3 defense and then we put him in a 3-4. Then we announce our policy is "stay close to the other team and hope they make mistakes and we can win in the fourth quarter." On offense, we sign guards and convert them to tackles or hey, I know.. a center! Let's sign a free agent corner that's known as a finesse guy that goes for interceptions and hope he becomes a fearsome tackler. Sheesh.All of my nickles and dimes are on Kubes. Whatever he wants he gets for at least two years.. well maybe one.

TexanFan881
06-21-2006, 06:24 PM
Ok, first we draft a player or sign a free agent that is good in 4-3 defense and then we put him in a 3-4. Then we announce our policy is "stay close to the other team and hope they make mistakes and we can win in the fourth quarter." On offense, we sign guards and convert them to tackles or hey, I know.. a center! Let's sign a free agent corner that's known as a finesse guy that goes for interceptions and hope he becomes a fearsome tackler. Sheesh.All of my nickles and dimes are on Kubes. Whatever he wants he gets for at least two years.. well maybe one.

Thanks to that we're already set for the 4-3 :stirpot:

Corrosion
06-21-2006, 06:44 PM
Anyone think that maybe we run a little 3-4 this year? Maybe to confuse the opposing offenses? Just to mix things up a little bit. We've got players that can play in the 3-4. Just an "out there" thought :hmmm:


Both Pittsburgh and New England mix in the 4-3 set to some degree . Being "Tied to" one system or the other becomes predictable . I Think that you will see quite a lot of the 3-4 this season . A lot of this will depend on the play of both Babin and Peek. If they can put it together it becomes more viable .

With a DL of Mario , Payne , Weaver or Smith and Babin or Peek at DE Either De could consievably move to a more LB like position .

TexanFan881
06-21-2006, 06:58 PM
Both Pittsburgh and New England mix in the 4-3 set to some degree . Being "Tied to" one system or the other becomes predictable . I Think that you will see quite a lot of the 3-4 this season . A lot of this will depend on the play of both Babin and Peek. If they can put it together it becomes more viable .

With a DL of Mario , Payne , Weaver or Smith and Babin or Peek at DE Either De could consievably move to a more LB like position .

I definately think we should try it :yahoo: