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View Full Version : Which QB had a better college career?


the wonger need food
06-20-2006, 06:53 PM
DC or VY

MorKnolle
06-20-2006, 07:10 PM
Carr had better statistics, Vince obviously had the better team and won a NC, so it depends on how you asking the question.

DominickDavisFan76
06-20-2006, 07:14 PM
I would say David Carr because he didnt have much help on that Bulldogs squad so....DC

swtbound07
06-20-2006, 07:20 PM
I would say David Carr because he didnt have much help on that Bulldogs squad so....DC

accomplishing nothing with a bad team doesnt make a good career

infantrycak
06-20-2006, 07:50 PM
accomplishing nothing with a bad team doesnt make a good career

Really? Well maybe not more than College Hall of Fame and Pro Football Hall of Fame--almost accomplishing nothing (no bowl games) and narrowly averting no SB's with the addition of a running game. Guess who?

He attended Stanford University where he played both football and baseball. His last football game at Stanford was one of the most famous games of all time, the 1982 Big Game versus the University of California, Berkeley (also known as Cal), which ended with "The Play", an amazing (and infamous) play with five lateral passes that allowed Cal to win the game. Although Elway never led his team to a bowl game, he had an accomplished college career. In his four seasons (1979–1982) at Stanford, he completed 774 passes for 9,349 yards and 77 touchdowns. His 24 touchdown passes in 1982 led the nation, and he graduated with nearly every Stanford and Pacific-10 career record for passing and total offense. He won Pac-10 Player of the Year honors in 1980 and 1982, was a consensus All-American, and finished second in Heisman Trophy balloting as a senior. Although his team never qualified to play in a college bowl game, in 2000, Elway was enshrined in the College Football Hall of Fame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Elway

These kinds of debates go nowhere because nobody agrees on the standards and usually adopts a standard to achieve a desired result.

HJam72
06-20-2006, 07:53 PM
These kinds of debates go nowhere because nobody agrees on the standards and usually adopts a standard to achieve a desired result.

That's right and I am now convinced that Carr is the next Elway. :ok:

Thanks for that, swtbound. :tease:

rmartin65
06-20-2006, 08:03 PM
Carr was the better qb.

TwinSisters
06-20-2006, 08:16 PM
These kinds of debates go nowhere because nobody agrees on the standards and usually adopts a standard to achieve a desired result.

I agree. I think Bosworth is in the College Hall of Fame also

also after looking at it... they have like 10,000 people in the College HOF. So pretty much if you got your named called more then once by the announcer on the loudspeakers, you get a ticket to the College Hall of Fame.

aquafin
06-20-2006, 08:27 PM
Ryan Leaf

Honoring Earl 34
06-20-2006, 08:32 PM
I had never heard of Carr until the summer before his senior year . Vince I knew about when he was in High School . Carr had a monster senior year while Vince had two good years and two great bowl games . I figure Vince got his team to the Rose Bowl twice and dominated both games so I give the who's the best QB award to Vince .

John Elway was the best QB prospect that I have seen , so Carr and VY don't play in his league . Having said that , Elway struggled his first couple of years with Denver so I don't care how good Vince looks in camp ... he can't carry a team for 16 games as a rookie .

Corrosion
06-20-2006, 09:04 PM
Champoinships speak volumes !

Its gotta be Vince .

TexanFan881
06-20-2006, 09:45 PM
There was a debate with this in the other thread and now it has it's own thread :francis:

But Carr definately had a better college career. A championship says the team whole team got it done, not just one particular player.

TexansLucky13
06-20-2006, 10:47 PM
Carr, without a doubt. He did so much his Senior year that I was not surprised he took 1st rank in his draft.

Hutch13
06-21-2006, 01:19 AM
VY he had one of the best preformances in the national championship ... i like david carr as a player but vince yound did so much 30-2 record best by a QB at UT dont think carr had that good of a record

Vince Young (and a national championship)
2006 - Manning Award winner
2006 - Rose Bowl MVP (at end of 2005 season)
2005 - Finalist for Heisman Trophy
2005 - The Cingular Player of the Year Award
2005 - All-American Offensive Player
2005 - The Maxwell Award - College Player of the Year
2005 - Davey O'Brien National Quarterback Award
2005 - 1st Team All-Big 12 Conference honors (unanimous decision)
2005 - Rose Bowl Most Valuable Player (at end of 2004 season)
2004 - Honorable mention All-Big 12 Conference honors
2003 - Big 12 Conference Offensive Freshman of the Year

David Carr
Carr's 2001 Awards
Johnny Unitas Award
Football News Offensive Player of the Year
Sammy Baugh Award
WAC Offensive Player of the Year
First-team All-WAC
CNN/SI Honorable mention All-American

Hulk75
06-21-2006, 07:52 AM
accomplishing nothing with a bad team doesnt make a good career
You make me laugh bro, strap it up before you make comments like that.

Guy shattered every record Fresno ever had, on the field and in the weight room............You never saw a game so you cant really say he accomplished nothing.
Yea he did nothing besides get drafted #1..................

College career
David Carr was one of the most successful athletes ever to play for Fresno State. He was the starting quarterback during the 2000 and 2001 seasons after redshirting in 1999. Under his leadership, the bulldogs went 7-5 and 11-3. In his senior season the team beat Colorado, Oregon State, and Wisconsin, all members of BCS conferences. There was speculation about whether the Bulldogs would qualify for a BCS bid, something unprecedented for a 'Mid Major' conference team. During his collegiate career Carr completed 587 of 934 passes for 7,849 yards. He threw 70 touchdowns versus 23 interceptions. Carr collected many honors and awards during his final college season, most notably the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award.That was only 2 years worth..........I doubt that is nothing.............O and do you know who holds the record for the most recieving yards for a WR in a bowl game? Rodney Wright Fresno State 299 yards..........Carr threw for 531 yards.............

Michigan State overcame a spectacular effort by Fresno State's
David Carr, who passed for a career-high 531 yards and four
touchdowns in an audition for the NFL draft. Carr, who is
expected to be a high first-round pick, completed 35-of-56
passes.

The Bulldogs rushed for just 29 yards on 22 carries.

"It was one of those games where we scored and they scored. Back
and forth," Carr said. "Our defense played really well in the
second half. It was a great game and it was a shame someone had
to lose."

Among those impressed by Carr's performance was his counterpart.

"He is a tremendous quarterback," Smoker said. "I watched what
he did because he sets the standard as one of the best
quarterbacks in the country."

Rodney Wright grabbed 13 passes for a school-record 299 yards
for Fresno State (11-3), which scored 261 points in its final
five regular-season games.
He did all that with only 29 yards rushing for the team. When the Defense knew he was throwing the ball.

Your deffinition of nothing is scary.

Exascor
06-21-2006, 08:24 AM
Could we add David Klingler to the poll?

the wonger need food
06-21-2006, 08:42 AM
You make me laugh bro, strap it up before you make comments like that.

Guy shattered every record Fresno ever had, on the field and in the weight room............You never saw a game so you cant really say he accomplished nothing.
Yea he did nothing besides get drafted #1..................

That was only 2 years worth..........I doubt that is nothing.............O and do you know who holds the record for the most recieving yards for a WR in a bowl game? Rodney Wright Fresno State 299 yards..........Carr threw for 531 yards.............


He did all that with only 29 yards rushing for the team. When the Defense knew he was throwing the ball.

Your deffinition of nothing is scary.

Wow!!!! Carr led his team to a loss against a 7-5 (32nd ranked) Michigan State team. And that's the highlight of his college career???

TwinSisters
06-21-2006, 09:28 AM
Could we add David Klingler to the poll?

That's what I was thinking too... Klingler and Andre Ware.

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 09:53 AM
Wow!!!! Carr led his team to a loss against a 7-5 (32nd ranked) Michigan State team. And that's the highlight of his college career???

This is priceless. So throwing for 521 yds and 4 TD's is not doing his part?--it isn't a great game from the QB because his team couldn't rush or play D? Y'all are drawing way too narrow a line and one obviously chosen to pick a certain person. But for Michael Huff stopping White, by this standard VY's Rose Bowl performance would have been worthless. That's silly--VY's game was epic either way.

awtysst
06-21-2006, 10:43 AM
Vince Young: Led team to National Championshsip
David Carr: Did not lead team to National Championship

Discussion ends right there.

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 10:58 AM
Vince Young: Led team to National Championshsip
David Carr: Did not lead team to National Championship

Discussion ends right there.

So John Elway didn't have a better college career than Vince Young? :ok:

Is this a fully developed mechanical ranking system?

National Championship
get to National Championship
win multiple bowl games
win at least one bowl game
get to multiple bowl games
get to at least one multiple bowl games

Wow there must be hundreds of QB's with better college careers than John Elway by this simplistic approach.

Exascor
06-21-2006, 11:10 AM
Vince Young: Led team to National Championshsip
David Carr: Did not lead team to National Championship

Discussion ends right there.That's a joke right? I like Vince and think he had an outstanding year but the championship is the least important stat in his resume. Were Elway and Marino better QBs than the QBs that went to the championship games during their college careers? My internet is blocked at work but I'm sure that the vast majority of championship QBs in college have NOT been the best QB in the nation. They just happen to play on the best team. Championships aren't won by QBs. They are won by teams. Period.
See: Manning, Peyton or Marino, Dan

Exascor
06-21-2006, 11:11 AM
cak beat me to it. I need to work on my typing or something. heh

Double Barrel
06-21-2006, 11:13 AM
I'd say based on stats, Carr had a better college career.

But based on results, Young had a better career.

I'm not saying that Young is "better" or "worse", but champsionships are why they play the game.

It's such a subjective argument, though, because there are no unanimously agreed upon standards to measure "better career". It's all in the eyes of the opinion maker.

real
06-21-2006, 11:21 AM
That's a joke right? I like Vince and think he had an outstanding year but the championship is the least important stat in his resume. Were Elway and Marino better QBs than the QBs that went to the championship games during their college careers? My internet is blocked at work but I'm sure that the vast majority of championship QBs in college have NOT been the best QB in the nation. They just happen to play on the best team. Championships aren't won by QBs. They are won by teams. Period.
See: Manning, Peyton or Marino, Dan

The question is which QB had the Better career...Not who was the better QB.....Yes Great Qb's can be on bad teams and not get all the recognition of a lesser skilled Qb on a good team...but that wasn't the question posed in the thread...Even if you feel that D.Carr is the more skilled QB, that doesn't mean he had the better career...Like Dwayne Wade, and LeBron James...I think LeBron is more skilled and a better overall player, but up to this point D.Wade has had the better career, IMO...:twocents: And really it all depends on how you define better career...everyone talks about it being a team game so why put individual stats ahead of team accomplishments? It's not youngs fault he went to UT, and D.Carr went to Fresno...IMO, I define better Career like this...If I had the chance to have lived in either one of there shoes during their respectable college careers I would without a doubt choose V.Youngs over Carrs...end..........of...............story

WWJD
06-21-2006, 11:43 AM
Vince!

Exascor
06-21-2006, 12:17 PM
The question is which QB had the Better career. Not who was the better QB. If I had the chance to have lived in either one of there shoes during their respectable college careers I would without a doubt choose V.Youngs over Carrs.So would I. I voted for Vince. But...using a championship as the ONLY reason is bogus imo. Who had a better carreer: Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?

Double Barrel
06-21-2006, 12:27 PM
So would I. I voted for Vince. But...using a championship as the ONLY reason is bogus imo. Who had a better carreer: Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?

I was going to use that same players in a scenario!

Interesting question: what would you rather have, a Superbowl ring or a HoF ring? One is the ultimate team achievement, and the other the ultimate individual achievement.

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 12:35 PM
Interesting question: what would you rather have, a Superbowl ring or a HoF ring? One is the ultimate team achievement, and the other the ultimate individual achievement.

IMO most players would answer SB ring as a general hypothetical. Having said that, I really can't see Marino giving up having been regarded as one of the if not the best QB in the game for a decade and the Hall of Fame to be regarded as a QB who the team won in spite of rather than because of.

real
06-21-2006, 12:35 PM
So would I. I voted for Vince. But...using a championship as the ONLY reason is bogus imo. Who had a better carreer: Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?

Just depends on your def. of better....IMO, Dan Marino...:mario:

Lucky
06-21-2006, 12:40 PM
Vince Young: Led team to National Championshsip
David Carr: Did not lead team to National Championship

Discussion ends right there.
Then Young was a better college QB than Carr. Of course by this standard, Tommie Frazier of Nebraska was twice the QB Young was. Frazier won two championships.

hollywood_texan
06-21-2006, 01:14 PM
Vince Young.

I am not sure what the point of this is though. Both were on very different teams, played in different conferences, and played different opponents.

My arguement stems from Vince not only accumulated amazing stats but he led the Longhorns to an undefeated season, including victories over very strong opponents Ohio State and USC, which make him the better quarterback from a college perspective. Also, remember he came through in the clutch every time in 2005 and many times in 2004.

Also, Vince makes bolds statements and follows them up.

swtbound07
06-21-2006, 01:24 PM
If your only accomplishment is passing stats plus mediocre record, then BJ Symons and timmy chang should be leading this discussion. Vince put up crazy stats and got a ring, plus a sick W-L record. Carr isn't even in Young's league.

chuckm
06-21-2006, 01:35 PM
forget about both of those guys ...


Tommy Frazier

33 - 3 as a starter
1994 national championship
1995 national championship
1995 Heisman runner-up (Eddie George)

chuckm
06-21-2006, 01:39 PM
Then Young was a better college QB than Carr. Of course by this standard, Tommie Frazier of Nebraska was twice the QB Young was. Frazier won two championships.


guess I should read all the previous posts before I post huh?

Chicagotexan1
06-21-2006, 01:44 PM
:stirpot: Yince shmince!! One good year capped by a ring. Tommie Frazier did it twice!! Guess I should read the previous post that say I should read the previous posts.

chuckm
06-21-2006, 01:47 PM
:stirpot: Yince shmince!! One good year capped by a ring. Tommie Frazier did it twice!! Guess I should read the previous post that say I should read the previous posts.


yea what he said

Double Barrel
06-21-2006, 02:34 PM
IMO most players would answer SB ring as a general hypothetical. Having said that, I really can't see Marino giving up having been regarded as one of the if not the best QB in the game for a decade and the Hall of Fame to be regarded as a QB who the team won in spite of rather than because of.

Well, maybe second best. ;) Montana is a HoF QB with four rings. (he gets my vote as "best").

The weird thing is that Marino only made it to the SB once, early in his career. I kind of see P. Manning as a modern day Marino, with T. Brady being his modern version of Montana. Which is another interesting question: who would you rather have today, Brady or Manning?

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 02:44 PM
Well, maybe second best. ;) Montana is a HoF QB with four rings. (he gets my vote as "best").

The weird thing is that Marino only made it to the SB once, early in his career. I kind of see P. Manning as a modern day Marino, with T. Brady being his modern version of Montana. Which is another interesting question: who would you rather have today, Brady or Manning?

All four of those guys are great IMO. However in each era IMO the better QB played for the lesser team. Marino was better than Montana and Manning is better than Brady. I see no reason to believe Marino would have achieved worse results in San Fran or Manning in NE. I do have concerns that if Manning went down in team quality rather than up he might start to look more human than some of the others--he certainly helps elevate his team but there have been several incidents which IMO have demonstrated a very poor reaction to pressure and a tendency to expect (and receive so maybe that is chicken and egg) special treatment. I still think I would take Manning--yuck hate saying that as I am not fond of him. Who would you rather have?

Double Barrel
06-21-2006, 03:40 PM
Part of me thinks about the so-called "intangibles", and more specifically, the ability to perform under pressure with a cool, calm demeanor. Montana (and Brady) are both known for their poise in high pressure situations. Personally, I value this quality more than arm strength, accuracy or other physical attributes.

It is an interesting question, would Marino have four rings if he was a 49er instead of a Dolphin? It's hard to say, because I never want to be seen as taking shots at one of the greatest QBs in history (Marino). But watching NFL Films and seeing some of the situations that Montana was able to pull through is simply mind-boggling. And I have to wonder if any QB, no matter how much physical gifts they possess, would be able to perform as well under the same circumstances.

One of the great QBs that I'm most familiar with is Warren Moon. Dude had an arm that was out of this world, and I personally believe that he would have held some of Marino's passing records if he had been drafted as a QB into the NFL. BUT, Moon still seemed to lack that little quality that demanded something greater from his teammates. I'll never blame 35-3 on him - obviously he had as perfect of a half as a QB can have - but I still have to wonder if some of those passes in the second half would have been different with a Montana. In addition, the legendary QBs had a way of inspiring even their own defensive players. I'll never forget that look of "WTF" on Moon's face during the last part of that game as he sat alone on the end of the benches. I'm not slamming him, as I've got a great deal of respect for him. It's merely an interesting question to contemplate.

These are speculative answers, so it's not really a debate I'm trying to create. I find the "what if" conversations very interesting, though, because it helps shed some light on the very minor differences between the greatest players of all time.

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 05:16 PM
Part of me thinks about the so-called "intangibles", and more specifically, the ability to perform under pressure with a cool, calm demeanor. Montana (and Brady) are both known for their poise in high pressure situations. Personally, I value this quality more than arm strength, accuracy or other physical attributes.

Completely understand this point of view, but I have a hard time judging IT myself and in looking at how many other people do it, IT seems far too outcome related than reasonable IMO. For example, folks point to the Rose Bowl as one of VY's crowning achievements and rightfully so. Fact is though, absent a stop by the D, Texas goes home without a trophy. IMO the different result wouldn't have reflected a bit on whether VY has IT. I just don't see it as simply as winning and losing. Some of the great leaders of all time have lost most of their battles--Rommel undoubtedly had IT--but his team was outmatched.

PS--you didn't pick between Manning and Brady.

hollywood_texan
06-21-2006, 05:27 PM
Some of the great leaders of all time have lost most of their battles--Rommel undoubtedly had IT--but his team was outmatched.


Are you referring to Hitler not following his recommendations? At points, the biggest obstacle to Rommel's success was Hitler himself. I believe history shows several key points in WWII where Rommel made the correct call but Hitler chose otherwise. Examples, Dunkirk and Normandy. Huge mistakes by Hitler.

However, in North Africa, Rommel lacked ammunition, gas, and equipment. Basically outgunned. That's probably what you were referring to.

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 05:30 PM
Are you referring to Hitler not following his recommendations? At points, the biggest obstacle to Rommel's success was Hitler himself. I believe history shows several key points in WWII where Rommel made the correct call but Hitler chose otherwise. Examples, Dunkirk and Normandy. Huge mistakes by Hitler.

However, in North Africa, Rommel lacked ammunition, gas, and equipment. Basically outgunned. That's probably what you were referring to.

Well I wouldn't want to be described as making "excuses" for Rommel but you have identified some of the problems with his team. :cool:

We could play this game with Robert E. Lee as well--clearly the best leader of the War of Northern Aggression.

hollywood_texan
06-21-2006, 05:38 PM
Well I wouldn't want to be described as making "excuses" for Rommel but you have identified some of the problems with his team. :cool:

We could play this game with Robert E. Lee as well--clearly the best leader of the War of Northern Aggression.

Yeah, you are right.

Lincoln was all over the previous generals to Grant to engage the Confederate army at all costs. Grant was willing to do it and paid the cost.

Just trying to provide a little more historical perspective.

Totally agree with your first point!

TwinSisters
06-21-2006, 08:47 PM
I don't get it.

Did somebody just compare Rommel and Dan Marino to David Carr?

I think that is what I saw, but I am not sure.

WTF.

( and that was an example of earnest usage )

TexansLucky13
06-21-2006, 09:11 PM
Did somebody just compare Rommel and Dan Marino to David Carr?

Hahaha. And so ends the Carr/Young thread... we need to have the name changed to "Hitler's Greatest Mistakes in the European and African Theatre of WWII".

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 09:27 PM
I don't get it.

Did somebody just compare Rommel and Dan Marino to David Carr?

I think that is what I saw, but I am not sure.

WTF.

( and that was an example of earnest usage )

Hmmm, all made sense at the time--John Elway was in there also by the way.

Hulk75
06-21-2006, 09:58 PM
Wow!!!! Carr led his team to a loss against a 7-5 (32nd ranked) Michigan State team. And that's the highlight of his college career???
Atleast they were not ranked 45!

530 yards passing against a better Defense and less talent around him...WOW!!!!!! And Carr does not have designed run plays and one look and run passing plays.

O my bad 48...............And look at that little old Fresno State had a better D then USC and better then Big 12 schools.
Waite did VY not go crazy all over Colorado too.
38 Fresno St. 13 865 4510 5.21 37 346.92 8 5 0
39 Miami (Ohio) 11 742 3821 5.15 33 347.36 7 4 0
40 Tulsa 13 859 4528 5.27 37 348.31 9 4 0
41 Colorado 13 944 4539 4.81 37 349.15 7 6 0
42 North Carolina 11 762 3841 5.04 37 349.18 5 6 0
43 Maryland 11 733 3856 5.26 34 350.55 5 6 0
44 Oregon 12 850 4292 5.05 35 357.67 10 2 0
45 Kansas St. 11 775 3954 5.10 38 359.45 5 6 0
46 California 12 883 4315 4.89 31 359.58 8 4 0
47 South Carolina 12 873 4329 4.96 31 360.75 7 5 0
48 Southern California 13 896 4692 5.24 38 360.92 12 1 0

VY won a national title can never take it away, but I still think Carr was and is the better QB.

real
06-22-2006, 08:11 AM
Atleast they were not ranked 45!

530 yards passing against a better Defense and less talent around him...WOW!!!!!! And Carr does not have designed run plays and one look and run passing plays.

O my bad 48...............And look at that little old Fresno State had a better D then USC and better then Big 12 schools.
Waite did VY not go crazy all over Colorado too.


VY won a national title can never take it away, but I still think Carr was and is the better QB.

I think he was reffering to Michigan States overall ranking whereas you only have their defensive ranking....USC was the number one ranked BCS team....

Double Barrel
06-22-2006, 10:29 AM
Completely understand this point of view, but I have a hard time judging IT myself and in looking at how many other people do it, IT seems far too outcome related than reasonable IMO. For example, folks point to the Rose Bowl as one of VY's crowning achievements and rightfully so. Fact is though, absent a stop by the D, Texas goes home without a trophy. IMO the different result wouldn't have reflected a bit on whether VY has IT. I just don't see it as simply as winning and losing. Some of the great leaders of all time have lost most of their battles--Rommel undoubtedly had IT--but his team was outmatched.

PS--you didn't pick between Manning and Brady.

Brady.

I definitely understand where you're coming from, though. It's an interesting coffee discussion, but that's all it can be. Fact of the matter is that Montana had better teams than Marino, and an argument could easily be made that any great QB - be it Marino, Elway, Moon, Kelly, etc. - would have found success with that kind of stellar talent around them. And it never hurts to have the greatest WR of all time catching your passes, either.

It is an intangible quality about leadership, tho'. Your historical references are right on. The Civil War would have been a blip on the historical radar if General Lee had chosen his allegiance to the union over his state. And if Rommel had been allowed to make military decisions during the D-day invasion, this would be a completely different world we live in right now.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 12:06 PM
I'd say based on stats, Carr had a better college career.

But based on results, Young had a better career.

I'm not saying that Young is "better" or "worse", but champsionships are why they play the game.

It's such a subjective argument, though, because there are no unanimously agreed upon standards to measure "better career". It's all in the eyes of the opinion maker.

at one time, I thought I was good enough to play football beyound the highschool level..... colleges didn't believe so.

My main reasons for going on, and playing college ball, were:

1: Pay for my edumacation
2: a shot at a pro Career
3: Win a National Championship

heisman..... unitas..... other vague awards weren't on that list.

So in my opinion, since Vince accomplished three of those three points, and Carr only accomplished 2, I'd say Vince had the better career.

However if they were both in the same draft, I gaurantee they would have gone 1 & 2, most likely Carr going first, because he is more of a traditional QB.......

So would I. I voted for Vince. But...using a championship as the ONLY reason is bogus imo. Who had a better carreer: Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?

I did think about this also, before I voted..... if You were to ask a fan who they would rather have on their team at the epitome of their respective careers, and without a doubt Marino would be the pick.

But put your self in their shoes....... which one believes he still has something to prove?? Dilfer will never sniff the HOF..... but he was the starting QB of a SuperBowl Championship team...

Completely understand this point of view, but I have a hard time judging IT myself and in looking at how many other people do it, IT seems far too outcome related than reasonable IMO. For example, folks point to the Rose Bowl as one of VY's crowning achievements and rightfully so. Fact is though, absent a stop by the D, Texas goes home without a trophy. IMO the different result wouldn't have reflected a bit on whether VY has IT. I just don't see it as simply as winning and losing. Some of the great leaders of all time have lost most of their battles--Rommel undoubtedly had IT--but his team was outmatched.

PS--you didn't pick between Manning and Brady.

Manning over Brady every time..... unless Brady throws for 4000 yards again. Until then Manning is the best in the league right now, and I'll build around him.

For me, I'm watching Brady, and I still can't believe what he's accomplished..... I'm a slow learner, but when I see him, I don't see great QB. I don't see field general....

I'm not saying he isn't a great QB...... he is....... it's just that he doesn't look like it.... Like I said...... if he throws for 4000 again, or 50 TDs, or win another SuperBowl, or something like that... then I'll be all forget about the why...... just know that he's going to do it again, & I will call him the best.

real
06-22-2006, 12:11 PM
However if they were both in the same draft, I gaurantee they would have gone 1 & 2, most likely Carr going first, because he is more of a traditional QB.......

They said the same thing about Leinhart....Just depends on who is picking...And about the whole Brady, Manning thing....Thats a debate that no one is ever going to agree on....IMO, Brady is the best QB in the leauge...That is because in my mind the championship is what you play for....And I know some lesser QB's have rings, while some of the best don't, but I just think that Manning has had so much Talent around him, and so many weapons at his disposal....While TB basically works with what he has....Peyton has all the X's and O's down, but IMO he lacks the ability to come up huge in clutch situations....IMO...Peyton=Dirk...Great players Stat Wise...But I just don't think they have that unseen talent of willing their team to wins, and having their whole team feed off of their energy....

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 12:16 PM
They said the same thing about Leinhart....Just depends on who is picking...

I never saw enough of Lienart to think he'd go #1 in anything resembling as strong a draft as what we just had..... not even #2.

If there were no Vince..... I could see him going to Tennessee...... but I wouldn't have guessed it.

jerek
06-22-2006, 12:20 PM
Ah, a David vs Vince thread. I actually hadn't seen one of these for a little while. Maybe I haven't been looking or maybe I willfully ignored them. Either way, my take is:

In terms of "better college career," that's really hard to say. Carr was a better statistical passer, albeit against somewhat less competitive schedules. However Vince clearly had the better offensive and defensive teammates. Vince "led" his team to the championship, though you will never convince me that Carr couldn't and wouldn't have done the same thing on that same team within that same season. As much as college defenses feared Vince Young's legs, the upper echelon teams felt reasonably certain they could contain his arm, and in many cases they did. For that matter, you will never convince me that Vince Young would have won a national championship at Fresno within Carr's senior year construct.

Team context is more influential in football than perhaps any other sport, and I don't understand how ostensibly rational, thinking people on this board can post up and down to the contrary; claiming that Vince is superior because "he" won, or that Carr is superior "because he had better numbers." Carr certainly had "it" back in college as well. You have to view the entire context. Sure, we could devise ranking systems (QB rating, for instance) that would attempt to incorporate it all but even these are not going to tell the entire story.

I went ahead and voted Carr just because I like the guy better, but purely in terms of the question who had the better college career, I'd be hard pressed to choose. Certainly Vince Young's was the more "epic" and the more winning IIRC, and he is in many senses the superior raw athlete, so from that standpoint you could easily say Vince Young. However Carr was and remains the better passer with the better arm and superior numbers, so in my case I would probably choose not to answer the question and leave it at that. They both had great careers and yes, VY brought one home for Texas, but you can make a strong case for both quarterbacks and in the end it forever remains a question of subjective opinion, not objective fact.

jerek
06-22-2006, 12:22 PM
I never saw enough of Lienart to think he'd go #1 in anything resembling as strong a draft as what we just had..... not even #2.

If there were no Vince..... I could see him going to Tennessee...... but I wouldn't have guessed it.

I thought Leinart was going #3, honestly. I would be interested to know if VY was the unanimous FO decision or if that came down from Bud or someone else on high. I suspect Chow will be headed to Arizona when his contract is up. It's not that Leinart is necessarily the superior product, but IMO he is far more NFL-ready and will probably be a better rated passer throughout his NFL career. I project him to be a Tom Brady-ish player -- slow, steady, and unspectacular -- with Vince certainly representing more highlight material but also more unknowns and longer development.

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 12:27 PM
I thought Leinart was going #3, honestly. I would be interested to know if VY was the unanimous FO decision or if that came down from Bud or someone else on high.

Rumor reports from pundits say the coaches wanted Lienart and Bud Adams wanted Young--FWIW.

real
06-22-2006, 12:27 PM
Ok...We are talking about Careers, not who is the better QB....I don't understand how it's not V.Young....It's like Manning and Brady...Who's had the better Career out of those two??? IMO, Brady...Peyton may be more skilled, and puts up more numbers...But i just think Brady's Career has been better...

jerek
06-22-2006, 12:30 PM
Rumor reports from pundits say the coaches wanted Lienart and Bud Adams wanted Young--FWIW.

That's what I heard too, though secondhand so I can't feel too certain about it. I've heard similar rumor that Chow wants out when his contract is up and is eyeing Arizona. Either way it would make sense to me that Chow would want his star quarterback, but it's one of those things we'll never know for now.

jerek
06-22-2006, 12:33 PM
Ok...We are talking about Careers, not who is the better QB....I don't understand how it's not V.Young....It's like Manning and Brady...Who's had the better Career out of those two??? IMO, Brady...Peyton may be more skilled, and puts up more numbers...But i just think Brady's Career has been better...

It's a question of evaluation criteria ... sure, Marino's career didn't compare to, heck, Brad Johnson if you want to evaluate strictly on count Super Bowl rings. Yet I and most logical people would tell you that Marino's was easily the better career. This is an obvious if not hyperbolic example but I think it makes my point. The answer to the question depends on your methods for evalutation.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 12:36 PM
That's what I heard too, though secondhand so I can't feel too certain about it. I've heard similar rumor that Chow wants out when his contract is up and is eyeing Arizona. Either way it would make sense to me that Chow would want his star quarterback, but it's one of those things we'll never know for now.

I can understand a player wanting to be where his old coach is, but I can't imagine a coach wanting to go where his player is.

Chow should be eyeballing a headcoaching job when his Tennessee contract is up, may very well be in Tennessee.....

but if he wants to go to Arizona because Lienart is there, I'd have to question the relationship.

jerek
06-22-2006, 12:46 PM
I can understand a player wanting to be where his old coach is, but I can't imagine a coach wanting to go where his player is.

Chow should be eyeballing a headcoaching job when his Tennessee contract is up, may very well be in Tennessee.....

but if he wants to go to Arizona because Lienart is there, I'd have to question the relationship.

Rumor about rumor is a whole lot of speculatin', but FWIW, Arizona is an OC's dream. They have a good veteran QB, a rookie QB that virtually nobody projected to slide as far as he did, three very good young receivers, a pretty good O-line, and now the Edge. In this scenario, Leinart is the icing on the cake.

Again not sure and none of this is coming from my handful of ultra-reliable sources, so take with a grain of salt.

real
06-22-2006, 12:51 PM
Don't they have Mercedes Lewis Too ?

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 12:57 PM
It's a question of evaluation criteria ... sure, Marino's career didn't compare to, heck, Brad Johnson if you want to evaluate strictly on count Super Bowl rings. Yet I and most logical people would tell you that Marino's was easily the better career. This is an obvious if not hyperbolic example but I think it makes my point. The answer to the question depends on your methods for evalutation.


I don't know...... Marino was without a doubt a better QB... and you could argue a more successful career....

But you'd have to prove that his ultimate goal was something other than winning the SuperBowl, to say he had the better career.

Honoring Earl 34
06-22-2006, 01:17 PM
:shoot: If you were to ask David Carr , if you could do it again would you want your career at Fresno State or Vince's at Texas ? I bet Carr takes the Texas gig . I would make the same case with Manning and Brady . Manning would rather have Brady's career .

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 01:24 PM
:shoot: If you were to ask David Carr , if you could do it again would you want your career at Fresno State or Vince's at Texas ? I bet Carr takes the Texas gig . I would make the same case with Manning and Brady . Manning would rather have Brady's career .

Well that's fine when you pick a three time SB winner to trade with. I'd bet Manning wouldn't trade his career with Trent Dilfer's just because Trent has a ring.

Huge
06-22-2006, 01:37 PM
What would be the better game:
A Vince Young led Fresno State team vs. a David Carr led Texas Longhorn team

or

A David Carr led Fresno State team vs. a Vince Young led Texas Longhorn team

I wouldn't pick the Young/Fresno team to win but I'd be willing to bet they'd put up a better fight.

TexansLucky13
06-22-2006, 01:48 PM
It is an interesting question when comparing QBs by SB rings vs. career stats.

Obviously Peyton is almost identical in stats and situation Marino. Consistently putting up league-leading numbers, breaking league records and having a lot of success in the regular season. They also relate closely in post-season record.... where Marino led the Dolphins to the playoffs year after year but never managed to win a SB (got there in 84 but the 49ers destroyed them).

Brady, on the other hand, could be related to Terry Bradshaw. An above-average QB, but not in the same league as Marino when it came to record setting and league leading stats. On the other hand, Bradshaw had an extremely powerful team with the Steelers back in the 70's, and led them to 3 SB wins.

So who do you think was a better QB? Marino or Bradshaw? Personally I think Marino was a better QB when you look at stats and consistent performance. On the other hand, Bradshaw had the leadership qualities that set his team on a road to success. So in the end it comes down to personal preference.... would you rather be remembered for being a record breaker, or a guy who led one of the greatest dynasties of NFL history? I prefer the latter.

Both Bradshaw and Marino are in the Hall of Fame and I am convinced that both Manning and Brady will be as well.

TwinSisters
06-22-2006, 02:04 PM
That's what I heard too, though secondhand so I can't feel too certain about it. I've heard similar rumor that Chow wants out when his contract is up and is eyeing Arizona. Either way it would make sense to me that Chow would want his star quarterback, but it's one of those things we'll never know for now.

This is false. Adams did not tell them to pick Young. Adams said it. Reese said it.

http://www.titansradio.com/cgi-bin/blurb_view.cgi?blurb=draft8900

Though he said he had never seen a quarterback like Young, Adams said he did not instruct General Manager Floyd Reese and Head Coach Jeff Fisher to take the quarterback.

''I know Norm Chow naturally favored Matt because he coached him,'' Adams said. ''But he realizes that in the pro ranks things will be different. And if you pinned him down, I think he knows in five or six years they'll be talking about Vince a lot more.''

Fisher and Chow are USC mates. It's not so much about being from USC, it's more about they knew Leinert better thus he was less of a risk. When it came down to the combines, interviews, film review, and strategy sessions... Reese tipped for Young.

Adams said to take a QB. He did not say take Vincent.

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 02:13 PM
This is false. Adams did not tell them to pick Young. Adams said it. Reese said it.

http://www.titansradio.com/cgi-bin/blurb_view.cgi?blurb=draft8900

Fisher and Chow are USC mates. It's not so much about being from USC, it's more about they knew Leinert better thus he was less of a risk. When it came down to the combines, interviews, film review, and strategy sessions... Reese tipped for Young.

Adams said to take a QB. He did not say take Vincent.

Well the original statement was the coaches (didn't say GM) preferred Leinart to Young. Your clip shows that at least with respect to Chow, Bud has verified that was in fact the case. It doesn't say one way or the other about Fisher.

Here is an example of the media reports:

Leinart, however, was the choice of Tennessee coach Jeff Fisher and GM Floyd Reese. But Titans owner Bud Adams told his coach and personnel man to draft Texas quarterback Vince Young even though Leinart was rated higher on the final Tennessee draft board. Adams, who moved his team from Houston to Nashville in 1997, wanted Young, his hometown kid.

Link (http://blogs.foxsports.com/NFL_Czar/Matt_Leinart/1942)

And another:

Pick proves the old adage that he who has the gold. Coaches Jeff Fisher reportedly preferred USC's Matt Leinart and his style and polish, however, ownership, along with G.M. Floyd Reese wanted the Longhorns' Young and his incredible athleticism. The sub-plot to the pick of course is what happens to Leinart.

Link (http://www.gbnreport.com/firstroundtracker.html)

And another:

Young, strangely enough, may end up costing Jeff Fisher his job in Tennessee. Fisher is in the final year of his contract (with an option for 2007), but owner Adams is not a patient man. That's part of the reason Fisher reportedly preferred Leinart, who would give the Titans a better shot at winning now if inserted as the starter. Young will need a year or two of development, but if Adams forces him into the lineup—and there is no mistaking who ultimately calls the shots in Tennessee—it may mean another single-digit win season for the Titans, and Fisher may end up taking the fall.

Link (http://fantasysports.aol.com/fb/article.cfm?id=6222)

Honoring Earl 34
06-22-2006, 02:42 PM
Well that's fine when you pick a three time SB winner to trade with. I'd bet Manning wouldn't trade his career with Trent Dilfer's just because Trent has a ring.
The question is about QBs that are in the same conversation . We were comparing Carr to VY and Manning to Brady . The tie breaker would be if they could trade ... in my opinion .

TwinSisters
06-22-2006, 02:42 PM
Well the original statement was the coaches (didn't say GM) preferred Leinart to Young. Your clip shows that at least with respect to Chow, Bud has verified that was in fact the case. It doesn't say one way or the other about Fisher.

Fisher wanted Leinert also. But I know how the Oilers worked with Adams and Reese/Herzeg/Holovak from Phillips and Glanville. Reese pulls the trigger on who they select. It is not to say the coaches don't matter, it is to say Reese makes the calls and has made the calls for the past 10-15 years. That's how Adams works. He likes the conventional GM, not the Coach/GM. ( for whatever reason, I have no idea )
---

you are linking up blogs from hacks. I am telling you what Adams said and what Reese has said. You could say that Adams told Reese to select Young off the record, but that is not what they said.

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 03:27 PM
Fisher wanted Leinert also. But I know how the Oilers worked with Adams and Reese/Herzeg/Holovak from Phillips and Glanville. Reese pulls the trigger on who they select. It is not to say the coaches don't matter, it is to say Reese makes the calls and has made the calls for the past 10-15 years. That's how Adams works. He likes the conventional GM, not the Coach/GM. ( for whatever reason, I have no idea )
---

you are linking up blogs from hacks. I am telling you what Adams said and what Reese has said. You could say that Adams told Reese to select Young off the record, but that is not what they said.

So what has been your point in going thru all this? Here was the original statement:

Rumor reports from pundits say the coaches wanted Lienart and Bud Adams wanted Young--FWIW.

You have admitted both Fisher and Chow wanted Leinart. Are you denying Adams wanted Young?--or that Reese would know Adams' preference and take it into consideration even if it wasn't an instruction? I don't care if Reese was the lone gunman or not--the point was the coaches wanted Leinart.

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 03:30 PM
The question is about QBs that are in the same conversation . We were comparing Carr to VY and Manning to Brady . The tie breaker would be if they could trade ... in my opinion .

You're proving my point. A SB ring isn't the be all, end all--Dilfer isn't even in the conversation although he has one.

Honoring Earl 34
06-22-2006, 03:58 PM
You're proving my point. A SB ring isn't the be all, end all--Dilfer isn't even in the conversation although he has one.
Your right but winning a championship is a tie breaker .

jerek
06-22-2006, 04:18 PM
Your right but winning a championship is a tie breaker .

Of course. Vince is clearly superior. How could we have missed it? :rolleyes:

Honoring Earl 34
06-22-2006, 04:22 PM
Of course. Vince is clearly superior. How could we have missed it? :rolleyes:
I think Vince was a better college player . The real question is who was the better pro prospect coming out of college ?

jerek
06-22-2006, 04:32 PM
I think Vince was a better college player . The real question is who was the better pro prospect coming out of college ?

Same answer. It depends. I think Leinart will have a lot of success in the next two years. A lot more than Vince Young. If that's the case, does Vince just suck, or did Matt come into a situation where he is simply much more likely to succeed: surrounded by 2 All Pro WRs, the Edge, and a good O-line, versus whoever Tennessee is fielding this season? Are Ben Roethlisberger, Brad Johnson, and Trent Dilfer superior to pro prospect Carson Palmer?

Team matters. IMO if Carr and VY both came out this year, it would be extremely difficult to rate one as the better pro prospect. Carr still has the better arm and entered into the league as an arguably more polished quarterback, but Vince still has the greater physical upside and stands to improve the most with appropriate coaching and surrounding cast.

Tough call, either way about it. Put it this way. Given what I know and have heard of Vince Young, I would feel that drafting David Carr is the safer choice. As it is, there is a lot of support around this league for David Carr having the potential to be a great quarterback after four years of getting his ass kicked.

But, depends on my management style. Would I rather go for the guy who, conceivably, might go on to be Mike Vic with an arm? Or might he bust out, unable to handle the pressure and cerebral demands of the pro game? Or go DC, the safer, traditional pocket passer who can still get out and scramble?

I would probably go DC. If you wouldn't, cool by me and I understand that. But I tend to prefer my QBs to put up prolific passing numbers. At the end of the day, I'm still not convinced that the truly mobile QB is anything more than a novelty at this point. The ball invariably moves faster when it is thrown rather than ran. I'd rather draft a fast scatback and teach the Peyton playaction than to have a QB who can get out and run but demonstrates lesser throwing abilities. I would place a premium on guys who can throw the ball really well. That's me.

Honoring Earl 34
06-22-2006, 05:09 PM
The unfortunate thing for QBs is if their picked high its by a bad team . Matt Lienert got a hugh break when he was picked by the Cardinals . Vince is not going to have fun with the Titans , he works for a guy who will use like a side show .

I agree that I like a mobile QB who's a pass first guy ... we employ RBs to run the ball . Having said that the QB can make huge plays if he knows when to run and not just to run .

Hulk75
06-22-2006, 05:59 PM
I think Vince was a better college player . The real question is who was the better pro prospect coming out of college ?
No, I am sorry Carr was the better College player.

Honoring Earl 34
06-22-2006, 07:35 PM
:bananasplit: I forgot about Carr in his Jr year leading his team in the Pineapple Bowl against Hayden Fox and the Screaming Eagles .

Vince Young had 9167 yards rushing and passing and accounted for 81 TDs at Texas ... I'm thinking Carr is a little short of that .

TwinSisters
06-22-2006, 08:19 PM
So what has been your point in going thru all this? Here was the original statement:

You have admitted both Fisher and Chow wanted Leinart. Are you denying Adams wanted Young?--or that Reese would know Adams' preference and take it into consideration even if it wasn't an instruction? I don't care if Reese was the lone gunman or not--the point was the coaches wanted Leinart.

The point is this ( I guess ).

I keep seeing the story getting twisted and spun into
"Bud Adams overrides coaches to select Vincent Young"

Which in in turn implies that the guys who run the show were meddled with. Like Vincent would not have been selected #3 over Leinart had a non-football guy made the call.

This is not the case.

Floyd Reese selected the guys that made the Titans who they are. Floyd Reese is the football guy that selected Vincent over Leinart. Bud did not override anything. It's not a special case that Reese went with guys that Fisher didn't have as his number one prospect. He (Fisher) doesn't have that responsibility in the first place.
---

there are really two things that I am addressing

I would be interested to know if VY was the unanimous FO decision or if that came down from Bud or someone else on high.

and then the follow up Bud wanted Vince, Coaches wanted Leinart.

If you skip Floyd Reese.. that's spin, because the coaches don't select the players.

I am not admitting anything either!! I am not debating. I am just trying to help out.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 08:26 PM
I would probably go DC. If you wouldn't, cool by me and I understand that. But I tend to prefer my QBs to put up prolific passing numbers. At the end of the day, I'm still not convinced that the truly mobile QB is anything more than a novelty at this point. The ball invariably moves faster when it is thrown rather than ran. I'd rather draft a fast scatback and teach the Peyton playaction than to have a QB who can get out and run but demonstrates lesser throwing abilities. I would place a premium on guys who can throw the ball really well. That's me.

great post....

& I would venture(kinda like a bet) to say that most teams/GMs would see it exactly like you did. But I believe most would reward Vince for playing at Texas.. & if Vince would have won the big 12 championship in 2002, that would really been saying something. & winning that NC.....

but, if he didn't (which Texas didn't) I doubt that would've been a plus.

But let's say they are graded equally, as "best Prospect" I think being from Houston, and being a very likeable, charismatic kid might sway things Vince's way. Not to mention the Gallery Furniture adds that would have circulated at the time.

Personally, from watching Vince for the last two years, and what I remember said about Carr in 2002, I'd be hard pressed to choose one or the other. I'd be happy either way..... but if our Offensive line prooved to be as pourous as it has, I think Vince would've given us a better opportunity to win.

But that's me.

Kaiser Toro
06-22-2006, 08:33 PM
Since this is college football we are talking about, all of you who selected Carr are off your rocker. The object is to win the National Champioship. Vince won it. They play to be the outstanding QB and player on the field, they both did that. You also could easily judge them by wins and losses.

The question is not potential since we are addressing college footbal only. VY was one of the greatest college players. And D-Nile is 10,000 miles east of here.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 08:34 PM
and then the follow up Bud wanted Vince, Coaches wanted Leinart.

If you skip Floyd Reese.. that's spin, because the coaches don't select the players.

I am not admitting anything either!! I am not debating. I am just trying to help out.

I also find it hard to believe that Fischer thinks drafting McNair was a mistake way back when. IMHO, there were only a handful of succesful player personnel.... McNair, the biggest/best of the bunch..... along with Eddie George, Jevon Kearse, Samari Rolle, Kevin Carter(I don't know if you can really count him, since he was a no brainer before he got there)....

But I can't imagine how Fisher wouldn't see this as a chance to do it again, and extend his career.... Just like Kubiak is seen as the man for downtrodden QBs...... Fischer(sp) is the man for athletic throwing/running QBs.

Hulk75
06-22-2006, 11:46 PM
:bananasplit: I forgot about Carr in his Jr year leading his team in the Pineapple Bowl against Hayden Fox and the Screaming Eagles .

Vince Young had 9167 yards rushing and passing and accounted for 81 TDs at Texas ... I'm thinking Carr is a little short of that .
And that Conference is SOOOO hard, you play Oklahoma 1 time and then you play???????????? O Colorado:hides:

Well one was picked #1 overall and the other did not know if he was going to play QB or WR in the NFL untill he ran into the most undisciplined defense I had ever seen on a big stage.

Carr's Career Stats
Year G-GS Att. Comp Int Yds. Pct. TD LG
2001 14-14 533 344 9 4,839 .645 46 79
2000 12-12 349 216 12 2,729 .619 23 73
1999 Redshirted
1998 7-0 41 22 1 228 .537 1 26
1997 4-0 11 5 1 53 .455 0 19
Totals 37-26 934 587 23 7,849 .628 70 79
Vince
Stat Overview Passing
YEAR CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
2003 84 143 1155 58.7 8.08 67 6 7 10 130.64
2004 148 250 1849 59.2 7.40 49 12 11 9 128.37
2005 212 325 3036 65.2 9.34 75 26 10 13 163.95
total yards-916781TDs

Not as short as you think friend, 1,318 yards extra and only 11 more touchdowns............And Vince had a whole other season under his belt, give me a break man let Carr play another year he puts up 5,000 and 50 TDs, NEXT. He also through 6 TDs in one half and they took him out, VY ever do that, I know he has a National Title YEA but with out a doubt Carr was the better QB in College, one of only 6 players in the History of College football to throw for 4,000+ and 40+ tds in one year.

I heard that CC and Kubiak had VY as the 4th rated QB comming out this year.:confused:

TexansLucky13
06-23-2006, 12:59 AM
I heard that CC and Kubiak had VY as the 4th rated QB comming out this year.:confused:

1. Matt Leinart
2. Jay Cutler
3. ????
4. Vince Young

Maybe they felt so good about Mario that they figured he could even play QB better than Vince. Who knows.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 01:08 AM
I also find it hard to believe that Fischer thinks drafting McNair was a mistake way back when. IMHO, there were only a handful of succesful player personnel.... McNair, the biggest/best of the bunch..... along with Eddie George, Jevon Kearse, Samari Rolle, Kevin Carter(I don't know if you can really count him, since he was a no brainer before he got there)....

But I can't imagine how Fisher wouldn't see this as a chance to do it again, and extend his career.... Just like Kubiak is seen as the man for downtrodden QBs...... Fischer(sp) is the man for athletic throwing/running QBs.

Hmm Fisher was a long shot coach when Reese drafted McNair. That would have been the 1995 draft, so Fisher hadn't even coached a single season yet. Reese I think was in his 1st year without a leash.

The thing about Reese is that the Titans have starters that they drafted ( and win with ). The Super Bowl squads were made up with 13 ( Reese ) drafts and 17 over all drafts. 17 out of 22 starters drafted and in the Super Bowl is fairly good. ( It's not all Reese, but the formula is working if you know what I mean )

I don't remember what Fisher wanted in the 95 draft at all... I am not even sure anybody cared because he was still a little unproven ( as a head coach ). I think everybody saw him as a Bud being a cheap... fella and just using him to save a buck or two like Red and Tice. And not too many people thought he was going to stay in the HC slot.

texan279
06-23-2006, 01:19 AM
accomplishing nothing with a bad team doesnt make a good career

Looks like a bad career to me...

(2001) Started and played in all 14 games and was perhaps the nation’s best quarterback … had one of the most outstanding statistical seasons for a quarterback ever … became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation … exploded in the Silicon Valley Football Classic, completing 35-of-56 passes for a career-high 531 yards and four touchdowns … threw for at least 300 yards in 11 of 14 games, including 10 of the last 11 … finished third in the nation in completions with 343 … received numerous postseason awards, including Football News Offensive Player of the Year, Johnny Unitas Award, Sammy Baugh Award, WAC Offensive Player of the Year and first-team All-WAC … finished fifth in the voting for the Heisman Trophy … set Fresno State single-season records for passing yardage and touchdown passes … is the program’s career completion percentage leader (.626) … had three 400-yard passing games, including a 432-yard, six-touchdown performance in two-and-a-half quarters in the regular season finale against Utah State … was USA Today National Player of the Week after his 340-yard, four-touchdown performance in a victory against Oregon State … had a heroic effort in a victory against Colorado State, leading FS on a length-of-the-field drive with 27 seconds left in the game, which resulted in a game-tying field goal as time expired. The Bulldogs defeated CSU 25-22 … has been tabbed by ESPN’s Mel Kiper as one of the top quarterbacks to be taken in the upcoming NFL Draft … completed passes to 12 different Bulldogs, including 10 for touchdowns.

Carr's 2001 Awards

Johnny Unitas Award
Football News Offensive Player of the Year
Sammy Baugh Award
WAC Offensive Player of the Year
First-team All-WAC
CNN/SI Honorable mention All-American
Sixth player ever with at least 4,000 passing yards/40 TDs
First in the nation in passing yards (4,308) and TDs (42)
USA Today National Player of the Week (Oct. 3)

http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/carr_david00.html

Hutch13
06-23-2006, 03:53 AM
1. Matt Leinart
2. Jay Cutler
3. ????
4. Vince Young

Maybe they felt so good about Mario that they figured he could even play QB better than Vince. Who knows.

um kellen clemens or brodie croyle?

HJam72
06-23-2006, 04:03 AM
I heard that CC and Kubiak had VY as the 4th rated QB comming out this year.:confused:

He probably meant 4th best player.

Something like:

1) Williams/Bush
2) Bush/Williams
3) Leinart
4) Young
5) Ferguson

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 07:45 AM
Well one was picked #1 overall and the other did not know if he was going to play QB or WR in the NFL untill he ran into the most undisciplined defense I had ever seen on a big stage.

Since this is a college football discussion I am not sure why we need to be discussing draft status and since you brought in VY not being sure if he was going to play QB or WR I would like to ask when will the #1 draft pick in 2002 start playing QB rather than taking 8 million dollar welfare checks for doing the Gator every Sunday?

Fresno State fantasy camp is much like a first person shooter game - a lot of stats/points but it in the end it is pretty hollow:
Results from 2002
http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/040301aaa.html

Results from 2001:
http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/fres-m-footbl-sched-2001.html

I did not want VY here as much as I did not want Carr here in 2002 or 2006, but to even think that Carr had a better college career is asinine at best and simply shows that loyalty to Carr is the major reason why people defend him around here, because there is certainly nothing he has done in a Texans uniform to warrant the love.

real
06-23-2006, 08:33 AM
1. Matt Leinart
2. Jay Cutler
3. ????
4. Vince Young

Maybe they felt so good about Mario that they figured he could even play QB better than Vince. Who knows.

What is your source? I don't believe that...:challenge

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 08:34 AM
I did not want VY here as much as I did not want Carr here in 2002 or 2006, but to even think that Carr had a better college career is asinine at best and simply shows that loyalty to Carr is the major reason why people defend him around here, because there is certainly nothing he has done in a Texans uniform to warrant the love.


Hmmm. No. I love Dave. He beat Dallas.

That doesn't take from Vince though. It's a French thing.

real
06-23-2006, 08:41 AM
I did not want VY here as much as I did not want Carr here in 2002 or 2006, but to even think that Carr had a better college career is asinine at best and simply shows that loyalty to Carr is the major reason why people defend him around here, because there is certainly nothing he has done in a Texans uniform to warrant the love.

Interesting statement....:challenge Maybe the people who are criticizing Carr aren't the ones who are Over the top...Maybe the ones showing all this blind loyalty are the ones who are crazy....:spy:
:shoot: :homer:

real
06-23-2006, 08:43 AM
Hmmm. No. I love Dave. He beat Dallas.

That doesn't take from Vince though. It's a French thing.

So HE gets the credit for wins...Well in that case since HE beat dallas HE also lost 14 games last year...

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 08:52 AM
I heard that CC and Kubiak had VY as the 4th rated QB comming out this year.:confused:


I heard they had him ranked as the #1 QB, and 2nd player overall.......
Since this is a college football discussion I am not sure why we need to be discussing draft status


well now that you mention it, being the #1 draft pick, may very well be considered equal to winning a national championship.


So I could see how someone could say Carr had a better college Career.

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 08:55 AM
well now that you mention it, being the #1 draft pick, may very well be considered equal to winning a national championship.


So I could see how someone could say Carr had a better college Career.

If we are talking college career, who had more wins, conference championships, bowl wins and national champiosnhips? Being #1 is a professional variable. That is not the topic.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 09:22 AM
So HE gets the credit for wins...Well in that case since HE beat dallas HE also lost 14 games last year...

Yeah but to tell you the truth. I don't really care. I want two things in the end: Beat Dallas, Make the Playoffs. I don't need to win the Super Bowl every year, but I want to feel like we had a shot every season.

If you make the playoffs going 3-13. Great. If you don't make the playoffs, then in the end, 2-14 is better. Be great, or be gone.

It's the same for Carr. Either be a great QB or hit the road. The context that I was replying to was, "What has he done to warrant my love?". That is it. He was part of the team that beat Dallas. Now he needs to start making the playoffs or looking like he is not part of the problem. The Wins and Loses don't matter to me ( that much ).

In a way I am posting here to center the Radical Extremist factions in hopes of building a more stable community. :)

( Don't confuse my own personal preferences for what I think you should like or anything like that though. If you like wins. Great. If you want to evaulate a QB on wins.. it's not a bad idea. I just don't care about it as much to give up the love. )
---

Vincent was a greater college QB then Dave.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 09:31 AM
well now that you mention it, being the #1 draft pick, may very well be considered equal to winning a national championship.

So I could see how someone could say Carr had a better college Career.

No that just means that the NFL team that picked that season wanted a particular position. Bush, Leinart, White, Huff all had better college careers then Dave did. But none of them went #1 overall.

The player doesn't have a lot of say in what place he gets drafted. On the field he is the one doing it. He has to execute. :)

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 09:33 AM
If we are talking college career, who had more wins, conference championships, bowl wins and national champiosnhips? Being #1 is a professional variable. That is not the topic.

Both topics have been raised in the thread. As for college career, I'd say you have to give the nod to VY--both had great careers at their respective teams--VY added (with the benefit of a better team--that is not a just because statement, but an it was a factor statement) two Rose Bowls and a NC.

As for pro-prospect, IMO if you ignore what you know of Carr from the past 4 years and consider the way NFL teams/scouts look at things, Carr would probably edge VY on most but not all draft boards. Look at this year--the big knocks on Leinart were all things which Carr undisputably has--predominately athleticism Leinart never thought about having. NFL teams are also much less obsessed with winning records than fans--hence Cutler being ranked above VY and/or Leinart by some teams. I believe there is still a preference in the NFL for conventional passers over "running QB's" which would reverse the college career question and have many teams ranking Carr higher. Not saying the majority would be right--just IMO that is the way the draft boards would look.

real
06-23-2006, 09:37 AM
Vince will be on ESPN classic, and his college career acheivments, and accomplishments will be talkied about for years by fans, media, and even VY bashers.....David...Well....He won't...

jerek
06-23-2006, 10:24 AM
Since this is college football we are talking about, all of you who selected Carr are off your rocker. The object is to win the National Champioship. Vince won it. They play to be the outstanding QB and player on the field, they both did that. You also could easily judge them by wins and losses.

The question is not potential since we are addressing college footbal only. VY was one of the greatest college players. And D-Nile is 10,000 miles east of here.

KT, where do you get this from? I expect this from people who can't spell or use basic punctuation. Not from you.

Vince played with a vastly superior defense and supporting cast. Are you telling me that Carr couldn't or wouldn't have won with that same team, in that same year? We'll never know, but he'd have been hard pressed not to.

Would Joe Montana have been one of the greatest if he had played for some no-name expansion team? I wonder if Joe's glory benefitted from the litany of Pro-Bowlers he played with, including the greatest receiver of all time?

Realistically comparing Carr's career to Young's is difficult as they played for two completely different teams. Making the blanket assertion that one is necessarily better than the other simply for winning the championship is just silly. I lost track of how many times UT's defense bailed out the team and got Vince the ball with good field position.

D-Nile runs right through your backyard buddy.

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 10:27 AM
KT, where do you get this from? I expect this from people who can't spell or use basic punctuation. Not from you.

Vince played with a vastly superior defense and supporting cast. Are you telling me that Carr couldn't or wouldn't have won with that same team, in that same year? We'll never know, but he'd have been hard pressed not to.

Would Joe Montana have been one of the greatest if he had played for some no-name expansion team? I wonder if Joe's glory benefitted from the litany of Pro-Bowlers he played with, including the greatest receiver of all time?

Realistically comparing Carr's career to Young's is difficult as they played for two completely different teams. Making the blanket assertion that one is necessarily better than the other simply for winning the championship is just silly. I lost track of how many times UT's defense bailed out the team and got Vince the ball with good field position.

D-Nile runs right through your backyard buddy.

If National Championships do not fit how about wins/losses, conference records/champisonships and bowl records? Surely we can measure them somehow? If not then this thread is dead.

jerek
06-23-2006, 10:33 AM
If National Championships do not fit how about wins/losses, conference records/champisonships and bowl records? Surely we can measure them somehow? If not then this thread is dead.

Just depends on the methods of measurement. If I am not mistaken DC had superior offensive production, certainly passing production. VY won more games and of course the championship. DC nevertheless won a truckload of awards. VY played for a much better team.

It depends on the weight you apply to the different criteria. And hey, if your criteria say VY is better, then sure, so be it, cause it's all only opinion any way. Your initial statement just seemed pretty narrow IMO.

Double Barrel
06-23-2006, 10:50 AM
Just curious: Was David Carr ever in contention for a Heisman Trophy?

I ask because it's a decent indicator of what people thought about a player at the time he was a college stud. We know Vince Young was in the top three, and a case could have easily been made that he should have won it.

Of course the Heisman is not the be all/end all, but when coupled with wins/losses, national championships, bowl games, clutch situations, etc., it is another piece of the puzzle.

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 10:54 AM
Just curious: Was David Carr ever in contention for a Heisman Trophy?

I ask because it's a decent indicator of what people thought about a player at the time he was a college stud. We know Vince Young was in the top three, and a case could have easily been made that he should have won it.

Of course the Heisman is not the be all/end all, but when coupled with wins/losses, national championships, bowl games, clutch situations, etc., it is another piece of the puzzle.

5th place http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/2001_archive_awards.html

Honoring Earl 34
06-23-2006, 11:20 AM
Vince had a great team but Carr played Rice , SMU , Nevada , Lou Tech and I think Tulsa . So if your team plays bad teams is'nt that the same as having a good team ?

jerek
06-23-2006, 11:40 AM
Vince had a great team but Carr played Rice , SMU , Nevada , Lou Tech and I think Tulsa . So if your team plays bad teams is'nt that the same as having a good team ?

Measures of comparative strength of schedule vs. wins losses is not the same as having a "good" team.

I contend that Carr would more than likely have won the National Championship had he played QB for Vince's team this last year (a much better passer and still plenty capable of scrambling for big pickups). Likewise, I contend that Vince wouldn't have so much as sniffed a championship game had he played for Carr's 02 Fresno State. If any of you honestly want to tell me that Vince Young would have won the championship in Carr's senior year circumstances, I'd say that is cause enough to discount your credibility from here on out.

We can rebalance the statistical measures and give our own arguments for where and how weight should be applied, but it's nothing more than a theoretical exercise that is best summed up in my above statement IMO.

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 12:02 PM
If any of you honestly want to tell me that David Carr would have won the championship in Young's Junior year circumstances, I'd say that is cause enough to discount your credibility from here on out.

We can rebalance the statistical measures and give our own arguments for where and how weight should be applied, but it's nothing more than a theoretical exercise that is best summed up in my above statement IMO.

MorKnolle
06-23-2006, 12:13 PM
I have to say that Vince had the better career but I still say David was/is the better QB, both on the college and pro level. I agree with Jerek 100% that if Carr was the QB for UT last year they still would have won the championship, quite possibly would have won it more easily, and they would have run an offense more resembling a pro offense. If Vince was on the 2001 Fresno team then I doubt they win 6 games that year, but as has been mentioned numerous this argument is comletely a matter of opinion and I doubt anyone is going to sway anyone else's opinion one way or another.

chuckm
06-23-2006, 12:16 PM
If any of you honestly want to tell me that David Carr would have won the championship in Young's Junior year circumstances, I'd say that is cause enough to discount your credibility from here on out.

We can rebalance the statistical measures and give our own arguments for where and how weight should be applied, but it's nothing more than a theoretical exercise that is best summed up in my above statement IMO.

Ok I'll bite ....

If we look back to last year's UT-Ohio State game ..... it was the 3rd quarter ... UT had the ball and was driving ... I think it was 3rd down .... ah the heck with it, I'm gonna go end my hunger strike ....

Vinny
06-23-2006, 12:17 PM
My Dad can beat up your Dad!

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 12:20 PM
My Dad can beat up your Dad!

Not after my dad borrows DB's kitty in the window--it is a team game after all.

jerek
06-23-2006, 12:22 PM
If any of you honestly want to tell me that David Carr would have won the championship in Young's Junior year circumstances, I'd say that is cause enough to discount your credibility from here on out.

We can rebalance the statistical measures and give our own arguments for where and how weight should be applied, but it's nothing more than a theoretical exercise that is best summed up in my above statement IMO.

Lol, discount away, but please hurry. At any rate I should expect to be struck by lightning any minute now for questioning Vince.

jerek
06-23-2006, 12:23 PM
My Dad can beat up your Dad!

My dad has better hair ... doh.

Vinny
06-23-2006, 12:25 PM
I doubt it. No baldness in my family!

jerek
06-23-2006, 12:52 PM
I doubt it. No baldness in my family!

Lucky. I started shaving my head at the age of 23 as I was rapidly losing my hair.

Genetics have done alright for me, but I'd like a refund on my hair and my knees in particular.

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 02:23 PM
Lol, discount away, but please hurry. At any rate I should expect to be struck by lightning any minute now for questioning Vince.

No. Just measure Mr. Carr against his cohorts in college. VY was playing in a diffferent ball game. Now that they are both in the NFL we will be able to measure them more accuratley, but only the excuses may change.

Hulk75
06-23-2006, 02:41 PM
Just curious: Was David Carr ever in contention for a Heisman Trophy?

I ask because it's a decent indicator of what people thought about a player at the time he was a college stud. We know Vince Young was in the top three, and a case could have easily been made that he should have won it.

Of course the Heisman is not the be all/end all, but when coupled with wins/losses, national championships, bowl games, clutch situations, etc., it is another piece of the puzzle.
Finished 5th-Nobody is going to win from a small school now days. DeAngelo Willliams I think finished 5th this year.

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 02:44 PM
I have to say that Vince had the better career but I still say David was/is the better QB, both on the college and pro level. I agree with Jerek 100% that if Carr was the QB for UT last year they still would have won the championship, quite possibly would have won it more easily, and they would have run an offense more resembling a pro offense. If Vince was on the 2001 Fresno team then I doubt they win 6 games that year, but as has been mentioned numerous this argument is comletely a matter of opinion and I doubt anyone is going to sway anyone else's opinion one way or another.

man..... I was sooooo there........ I mean the first half, I completely agree with. David and UT would have won the National championship, and I doubt Reggie would have won the Heisman.

But Vince....... 6 games??

David would not have thrown for 4000 yards, had he played 2 years in the Big 12...... and Vince would have lit up the stats even more on the ground, and in the air.....

Vince won the N.C.......... Carr was the first overall selection......... I think it's a wash.

Hulk75
06-23-2006, 02:49 PM
Vince will be on ESPN classic, and his college career acheivments, and accomplishments will be talkied about for years by fans, media, and even VY bashers.....David...Well....He won't...
Well I acctually have seen two of his games on ESPN Classics, So now what else do you have?

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 02:52 PM
I have to say that Vince had the better career but I still say David was/is the better QB, both on the college and pro level. I agree with Jerek 100% that if Carr was the QB for UT last year they still would have won the championship, quite possibly would have won it more easily, and they would have run an offense more resembling a pro offense. If Vince was on the 2001 Fresno team then I doubt they win 6 games that year, but as has been mentioned numerous this argument is comletely a matter of opinion and I doubt anyone is going to sway anyone else's opinion one way or another.

DC would never have come to UT so the point is moot. I would even suspect that he would have received a letter from UT and that would have been written by a graduate assistant.

FSU would have taken VY in a second. VY's resume is littered with success, DC's is littered with numbers. One has been a champion, the other is still treading water.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 03:16 PM
No. Just measure Mr. Carr against his cohorts in college. VY was playing in a diffferent ball game. Now that they are both in the NFL we will be able to measure them more accuratley, but only the excuses may change.

Don't worry I got that one covered already. Vincent has Jeff Fisher. Who's obviously a better coach, because he didn't want Vincent in the first place and benched Fresno State star Billy Volek that was keeping Carr from getting Fresno State ranked, winning a few Bowls, and a National Championship. Their owner and offensive line and WR's are all better too. Their well respected owner tells the GM to pick all the right players... except Young. A powerhouse team behind a ox of a line with a super genius offensive coordinator, naturally Young does better.

While Houston... well that's all different.

Terrible coaches.
GM that picks all the wrong people, but doesn't listen and listens to the coaches at the same time ( which is another problem within itself ).
Poor injury riddled offensive line.
WR's with hands of stone.
TE's made of glass.
One-pump chump RBs that get caught from behind.
And a Masonic cultist owner that spends all of his time in sin at the horse tracks. Work for the Devil, pay for the devilment.

No wonder Carr needs another season to get his belt adjusted just right to be better then Young.

Nay... PROOF that Carr is better then Young in the NFL, College, High School, and Kindergarten.

Fresno State Forever. Beat Hawaii. :stirpot:

Titan "Tack" Fan
06-23-2006, 03:32 PM
Vince, without a doubt. You can't argue with #2 in the Heisman voting and a National Championship. What he did for that team was amazing. David Carr's college career is universally forgettable, while Vince Young's college career will be remembered.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 03:39 PM
I have to say that Vince had the better career but I still say David was/is the better QB, both on the college and pro level. I agree with Jerek 100% that if Carr was the QB for UT last year they still would have won the championship, quite possibly would have won it more easily, and they would have run an offense more resembling a pro offense. If Vince was on the 2001 Fresno team then I doubt they win 6 games that year, but as has been mentioned numerous this argument is comletely a matter of opinion and I doubt anyone is going to sway anyone else's opinion one way or another.

I disagree.

They would have never made it to the National Championship, or even got as far as Michigan. Dave would've done exactly what Greg Davis and Mack Brown said to do and they would have ended up just like they did with Simms. Not too shabby, but not on the crown.

Vincent made Texas change and adapt to his game to win. And win they did, with Young standing upright in the endzone untouched.

Hulk75
06-23-2006, 03:52 PM
DC would never have come to UT so the point is moot. I would even suspect that he would have received a letter from UT and that would have been written by a graduate assistant.

FSU would have taken VY in a second. VY's resume is littered with success, DC's is littered with numbers. One has been a champion, the other is still treading water.
No I doubt they would have taken him in a heart beat, Jeff Tedford liked Strong Armed drop back passers that stayed in the pockett, tough kids that bench 400lbs and can run low 4.6's, down to earth guys.

Just look at this for me.................
Stats, proven, in ink stats..........

Carr runs a 4.64 40 time.
Vince runs a 4.5.8 40 time.

Carr played in a Offense that was pro style.
Vince played in a one read run, designed run play Offense.

Carr had less talent on both sides of the ball.
Vince had, well a lot of guys picked in the draft the last couple of years.

Carr had 5-9 and 5-7 foot WRs.
Vince had Sloan Thomas and 6-5 Roy Williams.

Carr had Parrish Gaines.
Vince had Cedric Benson.

Carr had the 54 ranked Defense his senior year.
Vince had the 10th ranked Defense his last year.

Carr had the 6th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his senior year.
Vince had the 40th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his last year.

Carr played for little old Fresno State
Vince played for the National Champion UT Longhorns.

Carr was selected #1 overall
Vince went #3 overall

Carr went to a small school were he grew up.
Vince went to a Big School were he grew up.

Hill,Carr took a small school and made them as a team you hate to schedule.
Brown,Vince took a Big school and won, like they were supposed to.

Anything in there that was not true.
After looking through that I have came to the concusion that Carr did more with less.

Sorry Carr could not win a National Championship, too bad that small schools will NEVER have that chance. So dont add in the National Championship he could never win and Carr just by looking is the better QB.

jerek
06-23-2006, 03:58 PM
DC would never have come to UT so the point is moot. I would even suspect that he would have received a letter from UT and that would have been written by a graduate assistant.

FSU would have taken VY in a second. VY's resume is littered with success, DC's is littered with numbers. One has been a champion, the other is still treading water.

You're right, David Carr isn't fit to walk the holy ground that Mack Brown and the Horns tread. David Carr may have great hair, but I bet he can score higher than a 6 on a GED-equivalent exam.

HJam72
06-23-2006, 04:05 PM
Carr had the 6th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his senior year.
Vince had the 40th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his last year.
[/COLOR][/U]

Wow. Not to take away from Young's accomplishments, but I think that really says something for Carr in this whole Young vs. Carr debate. It's gotta at least tell us that Carr has just as much potential as Young, which is saying a lot.

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 04:44 PM
No I doubt they would have taken him in a heart beat, Jeff Tedford liked Strong Armed drop back passers that stayed in the pockett, tough kids that bench 400lbs and can run low 4.6's, down to earth guys.

Just look at this for me.................
Stats, proven, in ink stats..........

Carr runs a 4.64 40 time.
Vince runs a 4.5.8 40 time.

Carr played in a Offense that was pro style.
Vince played in a one read run, designed run play Offense.

Carr had less talent on both sides of the ball.
Vince had, well a lot of guys picked in the draft the last couple of years.

Carr had 5-9 and 5-7 foot WRs.
Vince had Sloan Thomas and 6-5 Roy Williams.

Carr had Parrish Gaines.
Vince had Cedric Benson.

Carr had the 54 ranked Defense his senior year.
Vince had the 10th ranked Defense his last year.

Carr had the 6th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his senior year.
Vince had the 40th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his last year.

Carr played for little old Fresno State
Vince played for the National Champion UT Longhorns.

Carr was selected #1 overall
Vince went #3 overall

Carr went to a small school were he grew up.
Vince went to a Big School were he grew up.

Hill,Carr took a small school and made them as a team you hate to schedule.
Brown,Vince took a Big school and won, like they were supposed to.

Anything in there that was not true.
After looking through that I have came to the concusion that Carr did more with less.

Sorry Carr could not win a National Championship, too bad that small schools will NEVER have that chance. So dont add in the National Championship he could never win and Carr just by looking is the better QB.

Can't argue with that since we are talking about two different prospects, QB's, universities and systems.

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 04:47 PM
You're right, David Carr isn't fit to walk the holy ground that Mack Brown and the Horns tread. David Carr may have great hair, but I bet he can score higher than a 6 on a GED-equivalent exam.

Nope never said that. He just was not a highly sought after prospect in HS and he had to earn his way into a system where he profited off it for his two years as a starter. Very commendable.

VY has only known pressure and has delivered with the highest expectations. Numbers only tell one piece of the story.

Hulk75
06-23-2006, 04:47 PM
Can't argue with that since we are talking about two different prospects, QB's, universities and systems.
True I just think Carr accomplished more with less.

I would like for people to recongnize what David Carr did, he was not just some QB here and gone now in the NCAA, he did some wonderful things for college football and the Valley down here in California. He put Fresno on the map.

Huge
06-25-2006, 09:49 AM
Total career passing stats:
Vince Young - 444/718 (61.8%), 6,040 yards, 44 TDs, 28 INTs
David Carr - 587/934 (62.6%), 7,849 yards, 70 TDs, 23 INTs

Carr was the better passer. Though it would've been interesting to see what Vince would've done during a 5th year like Carr had. Advantage = Carr

Total career rushing stats:
Vince Young - 457 carries, 3,127 yards (6.8 ypc), 37 TDs
David Carr - 159 carries, 486 yards (3.1 ypc), 9 TDs

Young was the better runner. Advantage = Young

Total TDs:
Vince Young - 81
David Carr - 79

Advantage = Young

Record as a starter:
Vince Young - 30-2
David Carr - 18-8

Spare me the "Vince had better surrounding talent" garbage. If you believe Carr played against the same level of talent as Texas, you're punch drunk. Advantage = Young

Career accomplishments:
Vince Young -
Maxwell Award
Cingular/ABC Sports Player of the Year
Davey O'Brien Award
Manning Award
Big12 Offensive Freshman of the Year
Big12 Freshman of the Year
Big12 Honorable Mention
Big12 Player of the Year
First-team All-Big12
First-team All-American
2X Rose Bowl MVP
National Champion
First player ever with 3,000+ passing/1,000+ rushing
Heisman voting - 2nd in 2005

David Carr-
Johnny Unitas Award
Football News Offensive Player of the Year
Sammy Baugh Award
WAC Offensive Player of the Year
First-team All-WAC
CNN/SI Honorable mention All-American
Sixth player ever with at least 4,000 passing yards/40 TDs
Heisman voting - 5th in 2001

Advantage = Young

Young had the better college career...and it's not even close.

Where you're drafted has no bearing on what type of career you had in college. Using Carr's 1st overall pick status as a reflection of his college career would be like saying Tommie Frazier's undrafted status is a reflection of his. If you disagree, I'd really like to hear your explanation.

No I doubt they would have taken him in a heart beat, Jeff Tedford liked Strong Armed drop back passers that stayed in the pockett, tough kids that bench 400lbs and can run low 4.6's, down to earth guys.

Just look at this for me.................
Stats, proven, in ink stats..........

Carr runs a 4.64 40 time.
Vince runs a 4.5.8 40 time.

Carr played in a Offense that was pro style.
Vince played in a one read run, designed run play Offense.

Carr had less talent on both sides of the ball.
Vince had, well a lot of guys picked in the draft the last couple of years.

Carr had 5-9 and 5-7 foot WRs.
Vince had Sloan Thomas and 6-5 Roy Williams.

Carr had Parrish Gaines.
Vince had Cedric Benson.

Carr had the 54 ranked Defense his senior year.
Vince had the 10th ranked Defense his last year.

Carr had the 6th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his senior year.
Vince had the 40th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his last year.

Carr played for little old Fresno State
Vince played for the National Champion UT Longhorns.

Carr was selected #1 overall
Vince went #3 overall

Carr went to a small school were he grew up.
Vince went to a Big School were he grew up.

Hill,Carr took a small school and made them as a team you hate to schedule.
Brown,Vince took a Big school and won, like they were supposed to.

Anything in there that was not true.
After looking through that I have came to the concusion that Carr did more with less.

Sorry Carr could not win a National Championship, too bad that small schools will NEVER have that chance. So dont add in the National Championship he could never win and Carr just by looking is the better QB.
These are the ones that have no relevance towards determining which QB had the better career:
Carr runs a 4.64 40 time.
Vince runs a 4.5.8 40 time.

Carr played in a Offense that was pro style.
Vince played in a one read run, designed run play Offense.

Carr was selected #1 overall
Vince went #3 overall

Not sure what you're trying to point out with these:
Carr had less talent on both sides of the ball.
Vince had, well a lot of guys picked in the draft the last couple of years.

Carr had 5-9 and 5-7 foot WRs.
Vince had Sloan Thomas and 6-5 Roy Williams.

Carr had Parrish Gaines.
Vince had Cedric Benson.

Carr had the 54 ranked Defense his senior year.
Vince had the 10th ranked Defense his last year.

Carr had the 6th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his senior year.
Vince had the 40th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his last year.

Carr played for little old Fresno State
Vince played for the National Champion UT Longhorns.

For starters, Young played against a lot of guys that were picked in the draft the past couple of years. If you asked AJ Hawk about his impression of Vince Young, what do you think he'd say?

Next, Young played with Sloan Thomas and Roy Williams for all of one season. Do you hear Jake Delhomme complaining that Steve Smith is only 5'9? And how tall is Bernard Berrian?

Again, when factoring in the teammates they played with, consider the level of talent they played against.

Why point out the differences in the rankings of their passing offenses but not point out the differences in the rankings of their rushing offenses?

Young played for the National Champion UT Longhorns? Don't you think he had a pretty big part in how they got to be National Champs? Wouldn't you also say that that is a direct reflection of his college career?

And while I agree that it's unfair the mid-major conferences will never be given a fair shot at winning the MNC, you can't exactly use that as a reason for not winning the MNC during a season in which you lost to Boise State and Hawaii.

Kaiser Toro
06-25-2006, 10:14 AM
Huge gets a spiced Harumph with a side of Harumphed potatoes. Nice post.

Titan "Tack" Fan
06-27-2006, 11:06 AM
The poll don't lie.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-20-2007, 03:43 PM
Vince Young: Led team to National Championshsip
David Carr: Did not lead team to National Championship
Discussion ends right there.
Not really.
UT is basically like the Notre Dame of Texas -- it usually does the best recruiting in the state. It is a shame that they don't get in the National Championship every year the way they field teams. Basically, I view UT as the New York Yankees of Texas College Football.
vy was on a good team, I'll give him that. But vy would not have won a National Championship with the teams from Fresno State. He is an average QB, and on an average team he would have looked even more average.

Mr teX
02-20-2007, 04:04 PM
Is this a joke? lets see

VY - National Championship

nuff said.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-21-2007, 10:21 AM
Nope, not a joke. You totally missed the point. Winning a National Championship is a team effort. vy would not have been there without that particular team. Period.
FACT -- Rex Grossman won the NFC Championship. Does that mean he is a better QB than Drew Brees? No. But he still won the NFC Championship. All on him, or a team effort? Stick with your main arguement when you reply.

swtbound07
02-21-2007, 10:54 AM
If there is anybody still arguing that david had the better college career based on pure passing yards, then Timmy Chang beat the crap out of them both

real
02-21-2007, 11:01 AM
If there is anybody still arguing that david had the better college career based on pure passing yards, then Timmy Chang beat the crap out of them both

True.

And he didn't have a lot of talent either.

Huge
02-21-2007, 11:15 AM
Not really.
UT is basically like the Notre Dame of Texas -- it usually does the best recruiting in the state. It is a shame that they don't get in the National Championship every year the way they field teams. Basically, I view UT as the New York Yankees of Texas College Football.
vy was on a good team, I'll give him that. But vy would not have won a National Championship with the teams from Fresno State. He is an average QB, and on an average team he would have looked even more average.
Nope. Notre Dame is the UT of Indiana. ;)

And what part of being the first QB to pass for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 1,000 yards in the same season (along with leading the country in passing efficiency) screams "average QB" to you?

Do "average QBs" pass for over 270 and run for over 200 in National Title games? If that's "average" in your eyes, what's "above average"? Hell, what's "really good"?

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-21-2007, 11:35 AM
Nope. Notre Dame is the UT of Indiana. ;)
True. I'll give you that.:shades:
And what part of being the first QB to pass for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 1,000 yards in the same season (along with leading the country in passing efficiency) screams "average QB" to you?
No. It "screams" heck of an offensive line. You don't get stats like that without good recruitment to pad the O-line. Props to Mack on that one.
Do "average QBs" pass for over 270 and run for over 200 in National Title games? If that's "average" in your eyes, what's "above average"? Hell, what's "really good"?It was a really good team. I can't stress that enough. But I still think USC would have won the game if not for the poor coaching decision of alternating running backs. So, despite UT's great play, they still never put USC really out of it the whole game.

Trap_Star
02-21-2007, 11:48 AM
Who freakin' cares who had the better college career.....That has no relevance today. I cant believe you guys are seriously arguing this. Why not argue "Who had the better highschool career?" while you're at it.

ps. VY had the better college career IMO...:shades:

Huge
02-21-2007, 11:48 AM
No. It "screams" heck of an offensive line. You don't get stats like that without good recruitment to pad the O-line. Props to Mack on that one.
There have been many teams with great OL's...some even better than what Texas had two years ago. Their QBs never sniffed the production (both passing and rushing) Young had.
It was a really good team. I can't stress that enough. But I still think USC would have won the game if not for the poor coaching decision of alternating running backs. So, despite UT's great play, they still never put USC really out of it the whole game.
If my aunt had nuts...

USC was a great team in their own right. Not putting them away 'till the end is not a knock on any player/team.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-21-2007, 11:54 AM
Well, I'll agree to disagree with you. I think the National Championship is a result of a great team, not one player. To each his own though.

real
02-21-2007, 11:55 AM
Well, I'll agree to disagree with you. I think the National Championship is a result of a great team, not one player. To each his own though.

So you're telling me you would have rather had Carr's college career than VY's ? :hmmm:

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-21-2007, 12:05 PM
How many times must I roll my eyes at this?
If I were a QB (which I'll admit I'm not before you point out the obvious), I would have wanted to play on a team like Texas for my playing career. Much better padding.
To take away from Carr, who had to do a lot with a much worse team (by comparison to UT's Nat. Championship squad that is), is stupidity. He still accomplished quite a lot and had to work hard to do it. He wasn't first in the draft because of who his daddy was either. He earned it.
That isn't to say Carr is playing well now, as I think he is not. But I really don't think vy will be in the Super Bowl in another four years either. But we'll see how his first five years play out. Maybe he'll prove me wrong. There is no guarantee either way.
But he is still a rival and I will still not root for him. The Texans were not going to pick vy, so why does everyone keep complaining about it? Even if we hadn't gone with Mario we would have picked Bush, not vy.

real
02-21-2007, 12:49 PM
How many times must I roll my eyes at this?
If I were a QB (which I'll admit I'm not before you point out the obvious), I would have wanted to play on a team like Texas for my playing career. Much better padding.
To take away from Carr, who had to do a lot with a much worse team (by comparison to UT's Nat. Championship squad that is), is stupidity. He still accomplished quite a lot and had to work hard to do it. He wasn't first in the draft because of who his daddy was either. He earned it.
That isn't to say Carr is playing well now, as I think he is not. But I really don't think vy will be in the Super Bowl in another four years either. But we'll see how his first five years play out. Maybe he'll prove me wrong. There is no guarantee either way.
But he is still a rival and I will still not root for him. The Texans were not going to pick vy, so why does everyone keep complaining about it? Even if we hadn't gone with Mario we would have picked Bush, not vy.

The topic of this thread is which QB had the better college career.

The answer seems fairly obvious. But maybe it's just me, and ten million of my closest friends that feel that way.

real
02-21-2007, 12:50 PM
The only case you can make for Carr is that he put up a lot of stats.


So did Timmy Chang and Colt Brennan. I guess they had better careers than VY too.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-21-2007, 01:15 PM
The only case you can make for Carr is that he put up a lot of stats.

Which made him the first pick in the draft.
Even with a National Championship under his belt, Bush was still predicted to go before vy. (And did.):marionaner:
Personally, if smart decisions are made over the next two to three years, I think we will be in a better boat than the Traitors will be in.
:texan:

Huge
02-21-2007, 03:01 PM
Well, I'll agree to disagree with you. I think the National Championship is a result of a great team, not one player. To each his own though.
We don't disagree in that it takes a team to win a national championship. We simply disagree on the opinion that Vince was an average QB.

So I'll pose the question again, if Vince was an average QB, who, in your opinion, was a good QB?

If Vince was successful because of the talent surrounding him, was Reggie Bush an average RB? Because I guarantee he had just as much, if not more, surrounding talent than Vince did.

Even with a National Championship under his belt, Bush was still predicted to go before vy. (And did.)
I can see how this is relevent. Actually, I can't.

Honoring Earl 34
02-21-2007, 04:34 PM
I will say this ... David Carr had a monster senior year .

Vince had really good stats but was great in two Rose Bowls . One for a National Championship .

Vince had a great team .

Carr played in a much weaker conference .

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-21-2007, 05:02 PM
So I'll pose the question again, if Vince was an average QB, who, in your opinion, was a good QB?
Leinart was probably the better QB of the two. The 2004 Heisman Trophy winner, recorded a 37-2 record as a starter at USC, a 94.8% winning percentage. Led the University of Southern California to National Championships in 2003 and 2004, becoming only the third quarterback in the last 30 years to lead his team to back-to-back National Championships.
The only reason vy went before him in the draft is because he can run better, more of a running back trait than a true-blue QB, IMO. You never saw Joe Montana making long-legged gaits for the goal line did you? I think a good QB has a more dependable throw than run. But that is me. If you want to run, hand it off.
If Vince was successful because of the talent surrounding him, was Reggie Bush an average RB? Because I guarantee he had just as much, if not more, surrounding talent than Vince did.
He was a good back, but was been average in the NFL his rookie year. He made an exceptional receiver, but just a so-so back. Heck yeah, I'd chalk up his success in college to a good offensive line. I bet he would too.
I can see how this is relevent. Actually, I can't.
Carr went first in his draft. vy went third, but would have gone second if we had picked Bush. He never had a shot at going first, even winning the National Championship with UT. Pretty self explanatory.
Everyone was predicting Bush to go before vy because they thought he was the better first pick in the past draft. The Mario pick just shocked everyone (though I'm glad we made it). Bush, at least to the Saints next in line, was a better pick than vy, despite his ability to score by running. They already had Brees, who is a better QB.

Mr teX
02-21-2007, 06:06 PM
Nope, not a joke. You totally missed the point. Winning a National Championship is a team effort. vy would not have been there without that particular team. Period.
FACT -- Rex Grossman won the NFC Championship. Does that mean he is a better QB than Drew Brees? No. But he still won the NFC Championship. All on him, or a team effort? Stick with your main arguement when you reply.

Hey, i'm not a Vy fan, In fact some on here would argue that i am a Vy hater, but you cannot dispute what that guy did on the biggest stage in college football, his stats were ridiculous in that game. & don't forget about the Rose Bowl the year before. Winning the NC is a team effort, but his skill basically kept them in the game when USC made their run.

i'll say this, even if he doesn't win the NC, he still has a better college career than DC by a long way too. Stats don't tell everything.

Kaiser Toro
02-21-2007, 06:11 PM
UT changed its offensive scheme to complement one player and won a national championship by leveraging VY's skill set and leadership. UT won a NC in spite of their OC Greg Davis.

Moreover, VY's skill set scales at the next level unlike products of Tedford.

Huge
02-21-2007, 06:18 PM
I will say this ... David Carr had a monster senior year.
Think of it this way...

Carr's Sr season stats - 344/533 (64.5%), 4,839 yards, 46 TDs, 9 INTs

Factor in that many attempts during Vince's Jr season and it might look something like this...

Young's Jr season stats - 347/533 (65.2%), 4,978 yards, 42 TDs, 16 INTs

Carr - WAC
Young - Big12

Carr - Not known for his running
Young - Not known for his passing
Leinart was probably the better QB of the two. The 2004 Heisman Trophy winner, recorded a 37-2 record as a starter at USC, a 94.8% winning percentage. Led the University of Southern California to National Championships in 2003 and 2004, becoming only the third quarterback in the last 30 years to lead his team to back-to-back National Championships.
So let me make sure I have this straight:

"Good"=
Heisman Trophy winner
37-2 starting record (94.87%)
2 National Championship ('Course, we all know who he lost to on his 3rd try)

"Average"=
Heisman Trophy runner-up
30-2 starting record (93.75%)
1 National Championship (And had he returned for his Sr. season...who knows?)


The only reason vy went before him in the draft is because he can run better, more of a running back trait than a true-blue QB, IMO. You never saw Joe Montana making long-legged gaits for the goal line did you? I think a good QB has a more dependable throw than run. But that is me. If you want to run, hand it off.
Completely irrelevant when discussing collegiate QBs and their careers.

By your standards, Tommie Frazier wasn't much of a college QB. If those are your standards for collegiate QBs, let me know and I'll stop right here because we're on completely different levels.

He was a good back, but was been average in the NFL his rookie year. He made an exceptional receiver, but just a so-so back. Heck yeah, I'd chalk up his success in college to a good offensive line. I bet he would too.
Once again, what does their rookie seasons (or any year in the NFL) have to do with their collegiate careers?

And I'm aware much of his success can be attributed to the OL (USC's OL will have more players in the NFL than what Texas' will). But that's not what I asked. I asked if you considered Reggie to be "average"...just as you have with Vince...because his surrounding talent made him look better than what they were/are.

Carr went first in his draft. vy went third, but would have gone second if we had picked Bush. He never had a shot at going first, even winning the National Championship with UT. Pretty self explanatory.
Everyone was predicting Bush to go before vy because they thought he was the better first pick in the past draft. The Mario pick just shocked everyone (though I'm glad we made it). Bush, at least to the Saints next in line, was a better pick than vy, despite his ability to score by running. They already had Brees, who is a better QB.
Once again, the relevance of this when comparing their collegiate careers?

Gino Toretta wasn't drafted until the 7th round. Does that mean Drew Bledsoe, Rick Mirer, Billy Joe Hobert, and Mark Brunell (QBs that were drafted before Toretta in the '93 draft) had better collegiate careers than Gino? If you used the same logic you used to explain how Leinart was a better QB than Young (winning percentage, National Championships, etc.) it wouldn't.

thunderkyss
02-21-2007, 09:51 PM
Carr went first in his draft. vy went third, but would have gone second if we had picked Bush. He never had a shot at going first, even winning the National Championship with UT. Pretty self explanatory.

& if the Houston Texans had shown th dissatisfaction last year that they've shown this year with David Carr, Vince would have been hands down, expected to go #1 overall.

If the Saints had not signed Brees, Reggie would have slid at least another spot.

It's not about the best player. Never has been. If so, Julius Peppers would have been the #1 pick 5 years ago.


Everyone was predicting Bush to go before vy because they thought he was the better first pick in the past draft. The Mario pick just shocked everyone (though I'm glad we made it). Bush, at least to the Saints next in line, was a better pick than vy, despite his ability to score by running. They already had Brees, who is a better QB.

They've already got Duece.... which is a better running back. & they've already got Horn, who is a better reciever. They had Stalworth who is a better reciever, they have Henderson, who is a better reciever, & they've got Colston, who is a better reciever.

What are we arguing about??

kastofsna
02-22-2007, 07:40 AM
how can this even be a discussion? young clearly had the better career.

although it's kinda ridiculous to use "what if he came back for his senior year??" as an argument for young, because...he didn't. what if david carr won a national title at fresno state? fact is: young won a title, went to new york for the heisman presentation, and is certainly going to be remembered a lot more than carr.

Bubbajwp
02-22-2007, 08:36 AM
VY dominated two Rose bowls one being the national championship.

IMO if carr was in the same draft as VY he wouldnt have been a top 10 pick.

Mr teX
02-22-2007, 08:57 AM
VY dominated two Rose bowls one being the national championship.

IMO if carr was in the same draft as VY he wouldnt have been a top 10 pick.

Now that sir, is a legitimate argument.

real
02-22-2007, 09:07 AM
VY's final seasonn will be remembered in the hearts of those who loved him as well as in the hearts of those that hatedd him.

Carr threw the ball a lot.

Vinny
02-22-2007, 09:22 AM
Young had a historic college career and if you can't see 30-2 and two Rose Bowl wins...I can't help ya. Young's 30-2 run will be remembered for many years and by many football fans for a long, long time. Ask any football fan across the country who the most compelling player was in 2002 and I bet Carr gets a mention or two but I mean, just look at the message board here....most of the people here didn't even know who David Carr was until the season was nearly over and the Texans were interested in him. To me Carr's college stats were like Timmy Chang, Kliff Kingsbury or David Klingler's stats...pumped up gimmick college passing game stats. I'm sure those guys are great guys just like Carr but neither of them had a better college career than Vince Young even though they had fantastic stats....as much as I say stats don't translate in football like they do in baseball I hate to see people think that stats = physically dominant players. Year after year guys like Timmy Chang, Kliff Kingsbury, and David Carr will put massive stat lines....but stats are misleading...if they weren't Timmy Chang, David Klingler, Jason White, Andre Ware and BY Symmons would all be NFL studs.

SESupergenius
02-22-2007, 09:38 AM
It's not like Tom Brady had this glorious college carrer and he was drafted in the 6th round for cying out loud. And he's a "Golden Boy" also from California that was "coddled" in college before he given the 1st string assignment. Hardly anyone remembers Brady in college unless you follow the Big Ten. So what does that say? Hardly any of this translates to the NFL, the picks are still a crap shoot and you have to given the opportunity to win. Both NE and the Steelers had great defenses. We do not, it's not a coincedence.

What happend to VY record setting accuracy in the NFL?

real
02-22-2007, 09:44 AM
It'
What happend to VY record setting accuracy in the NFL?

What happened to Carr's ?

Mr. White
02-22-2007, 09:58 AM
Why did this thread even get bumped?

It was ridiculous 7 months ago and it's ridiculous now.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-22-2007, 10:58 AM
Well, I won't argue stats or the rookie season (even though that tells a heck of a lot for a draft pick, but hey, what do I know?) because Huge will just pick it to pieces and ask another question that I already answered if he cared to really read the post.
They both made the NFL. Both must have had pretty damn good college careers. I'll leave it at that. But if I'm drafting (which I'm not before you point out the obvious), I want a QB that can throw more than one that runs. So I'll probably look for passing stats over rushing. To each his own though.

beerlover
02-22-2007, 11:43 AM
I cannot begin or even fully explain why- but watching the senior bowl replay again there is something special about that Pitt signal caller Tyler Palko they called a "system QB".........not very big, not gifted athleticly as a matter of fact the exact opposite of the spectrum from a top rated talent, like a Vince Young. but from the QB position you can expect the unexpected. he has that uncanny ability to make plays is tough both mentally & physically takes linebackers head on. he's got a similar release & a natural lefty like a certain guy from ND named Joe Montana. does anyone remember what round Montana was drafted? :bubble:

Texian
02-22-2007, 12:37 PM
What is the point of this thread?????

real
02-22-2007, 12:43 PM
What is the point of this thread?????

Discussion.

This IS a message board.

santo
02-22-2007, 12:52 PM
.....like a certain guy from ND named Joe Montana. does anyone remember what round Montana was drafted? :bubble:


He was taken in the third round. Would be pretty cool if we can take a quarterback like Joe Montana or a Tom Brady in the third, fourth, or fifth round. Talk about a steal.:yes:

bah007
02-22-2007, 01:56 PM
Carr had better statistics, Vince obviously had the better team and won a NC, so it depends on how you asking the question.

Vince is the only QB in history to go 3,000 & 1,000 in the same season.

That's enough for me.

SESupergenius
02-22-2007, 03:58 PM
What happened to Carr's ?

68.3 last year. It went up.

real
02-22-2007, 04:06 PM
68.3 last year. It went up.

That's excellent.