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thunderkyss
06-20-2006, 09:29 AM
SportingNews (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=100801)


Kubiak called out QB David Carr as the most improved player of the offseason. With so many changes being thrown Carr's way, the coaches have been impressed with how he has adapted. He's listening well and learning. He's also taking their advice and using it on the field. The key is continuing to develop as the team resumes its workouts in training camp. In addition to working on his arm, accuracy and footwork, the Texans are challenging Carr to be a more vocal leader. He has led more by example in the past, and the Texans hope he can emerge as more of a voice on offense on the field and in the locker room.

Now....... what exactly does this mean??

To me, we have our new Head Coach...... Gary Kubiak. Basically saying the same things that guys like myself, Vinny, and a few other guys who get attacked for "bashing" David Carr.

David's been working on his arm, his accuracy, his footwork, and his leadership skills. Everything we said he needed to improve. Things you could see, that he was not doing, that he should be doing as a 4 year starter, #1 overall draft pick, even behind a poor offensive line.

Extending Carr's contract was the right thing to do..... because of what he had to go through, & the punishment he has taken...... largely not due to his own fault. The $8 million, in my mind, is what threw the option out, as a no brainer. Yes, extending Carr's contract is the right thing to do, but $8 million is too much to pay him for how he has played. 4 years is too long to still be paying a guy on potential.

So what's the point in this post??

Just to say...... we were right....

I understand being a fan, and sticking with your guy... but some of you here are just blinded by your loyalty, to call a duck a duck.....

I want to see David Carr succeede...... as I'm sure Vinny does.... I wanted to see Ragone, and Gaffney succeed as well.

During the season, you won't see me criticize Carr....... but when we are at a point, where we can make improvements, then we all need to be honest, and objective. A few months back, I know many fans read my posts, and formed opinions of me...... I'm a Carr hater, I look at the world through burnt orange glasses..... & I'm sure after reading some of my analysis, many have concluded that I don't know what I'm talking about.

So..... anyway..... carry on.

AFD1717
06-20-2006, 09:41 AM
You can make a very convincing arguement that Carr is the ideal QB for this type of offense and that he will rebound and become the probowler we all hoped for. You can also make a very convincing arguement that he would be an ideal salesman at Landmark Chevrolet and should pursue that career in earnest. This one will will have to be settled on the field.

real
06-20-2006, 10:02 AM
SportingNews (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=100801)


During the season, you won't see me criticize Carr....... but when we are at a point, where we can make improvements, then we all need to be honest, and objective. A few months back, I know many fans read my posts, and formed opinions of me...... I'm a Carr hater, I look at the world through burnt orange glasses..... & I'm sure after reading some of my analysis, many have concluded that I don't know what I'm talking about.


You are right...There hasn't really been a fine line on the Carr subject...People don't believe that you can think objectively about him...most ppl seem to think either you gotta love him or you gotta hate him... for me it's neither...I haven't seen what he can do with a good team around him...8 mil was too much, but hopefully he will prove he is worth it

texan279
06-20-2006, 10:08 AM
I understand being a fan, and sticking with your guy... but some of you here are just blinded by your loyalty, to call a duck a duck.....

Kind of like some with AJ, he is entering his 4th seeason, and is the highest paid player on the team, has one season with over 1000 yards receiving, and started dropping passes again last season...

AFD1717
06-20-2006, 10:26 AM
Kind of like some with AJ, he is entering his 4th seeason, and is the highest paid player on the team

AJ makes more than Carr? What are we paying him?

texan279
06-20-2006, 10:28 AM
AJ makes more than Carr? What are we paying him?

AJ counts $7,383,664 against the cap this season, Carr $7,256,720 against the cap.

jerek
06-20-2006, 10:33 AM
Ugh, couldn't we have just posted the Carr article and closed the thread? :) Smells like another big'un already.

TEXANRED
06-20-2006, 10:36 AM
SportingNews (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=100801)




Now....... what exactly does this mean??

To me, we have our new Head Coach...... Gary Kubiak. Basically saying the same things that guys like myself, Vinny, and a few other guys who get attacked for "bashing" David Carr.

David's been working on his arm, his accuracy, his footwork, and his leadership skills. Everything we said he needed to improve. Things you could see, that he was not doing, that he should be doing as a 4 year starter, #1 overall draft pick, even behind a poor offensive line.

Extending Carr's contract was the right thing to do..... because of what he had to go through, & the punishment he has taken...... largely not due to his own fault. The $8 million, in my mind, is what threw the option out, as a no brainer. Yes, extending Carr's contract is the right thing to do, but $8 million is too much to pay him for how he has played. 4 years is too long to still be paying a guy on potential.

So what's the point in this post??

Just to say...... we were right....

I understand being a fan, and sticking with your guy... but some of you here are just blinded by your loyalty, to call a duck a duck.....

I want to see David Carr succeede...... as I'm sure Vinny does.... I wanted to see Ragone, and Gaffney succeed as well.

During the season, you won't see me criticize Carr....... but when we are at a point, where we can make improvements, then we all need to be honest, and objective. A few months back, I know many fans read my posts, and formed opinions of me...... I'm a Carr hater, I look at the world through burnt orange glasses..... & I'm sure after reading some of my analysis, many have concluded that I don't know what I'm talking about.

So..... anyway..... carry on.
TKyss, I expect more from you! Starting another Carr thread. After all this message board has been through. Your not a rookie! :francis: :) Kidding.

Seriously, admit I am wrong? I would sooner change my screen name and pledge my aligence to the flaming meat heads!

The way I remember it everytime Carr spoke out he found himself having a meeting with Capers and Palmer about how he needs to keep his mouth shut. So now he has a coach who wants him to speak out. Every QB works on their accuracy.

Part of my arguments are that Carr has earned his chance to be on a good team and part b/c Carr has shown flashes of brillance when given the opportunity. I am sure Vinny will shoot back with he has never thrown over 200 blah blah yards in a win. Useless stat IMO.

So I would have to say if Carr succeeds we the people of the Carr are right and you are wrong. Wa Ha! How do ya like me now?! Kidding. Just kidding, slow day at the office.:)

Hulk75
06-20-2006, 10:52 AM
He is working on his throwing and footwork.............What else should he be working on punting the football.

Just because they say he is working on things does not mean you guys are "right" about every little thing you critique him on, IT means he is not perfect and is working on what he usually works on.

Let me just say this, Gary Kubiak is going to make this guy a Hall of Famer, you take into account his proto type QB mold, he can run, throw every route on the filed, is a smart guy on and off the field, does not make stupid mistakes, Works hard, has the right attitude AND FINALLY HAS A Head coach and a OC that are going to do nothing but elevate his game.

texan279
06-20-2006, 11:01 AM
I can't believe another Carr post was made just so you could let everyone know you were right, even though a lot of QB's work on the same things in practice, that is why it is called practice. The article didn't say how horrible anything was, just that he was working on some things, which is what all players do during practice, work to get better. I guess players like Jerry Rice get to a point in their careers where they no longer need to practice or work on technique, footwork, etc., just guys like Carr who are so horrible...

thunderkyss
06-20-2006, 11:30 AM
TKyss, I expect more from you! Starting another Carr thread. After all this message board has been through. Your not a rookie! :francis: :) Kidding.


Slow day


Part of my arguments are that Carr has earned his chance to be on a good team and part b/c Carr has shown flashes of brillance when given the opportunity. I am sure Vinny will shoot back with he has never thrown over 200 blah blah yards in a win. Useless stat IMO.


In all honesty, I can't imagine getting anything more for him, than Detroit got for Joey Harrington, if Detroit got anything at all..... I can't remember. But I think Carr would be looked at and treated like JH, in that the teams that he can start right away for, aren't very attractive.... The good teams, he'll be looked at as a solid backup, maybe future starter.

And to this date, that is what he has earned.



So I would have to say if Carr succeeds we the people of the Carr are right and you are wrong. Wa Ha! How do ya like me now?! Kidding. Just kidding, slow day at the office.:)

NO, if Carr succeeds, then you guys were right, in that Kubiak is the man who can turn Carr around..... even the Carr detractors say he has the tools, he has the potential..... we just don't believe we should still be paying him on potential.


Let me just say this, Gary Kubiak is going to make this guy a Hall of Famer, you take into account his proto type QB mold, he can run, throw every route on the filed, is a smart guy on and off the field, does not make stupid mistakes, Works hard, has the right attitude AND FINALLY HAS A Head coach and a OC that are going to do nothing but elevate his game.

Again..... the problem is that he is already being paid like a HOF..... and no, he hasn't shown that he can make every throw...... we know that his arm is strong enough to make every throw. & his hard work...... I know if I were David Carr, I know what I would have been doing in years past, and he hasn't been doing any of that..... &, he doesn't make stupid decisions that cost us games... he does make stupid decisions, that kill drives, or ruin our chances to advance the ball..... but not the one stupid decision(like McNabb does all the time) that looses the game.

texan279
06-20-2006, 11:33 AM
Again..... the problem is that he is already being paid like a HOF..... and no, he hasn't shown that he can make every throw...... we know that his arm is strong enough to make every throw. & his hard work...... I know if I were David Carr, I know what I would have been doing in years past, and he hasn't been doing any of that..... &, he doesn't make stupid decisions that cost us games... he does make stupid decisions, that kill drives, or ruin our chances to advance the ball..... but not the one stupid decision(like McNabb does all the time) that looses the game.

And AJ is being paid the same as well, and shown he cannot make every catch, and what has AJ REALLY shown us except flashes of great play at times? Yet I see 1000 Carr threads on here and none about AJ...

Texans86
06-20-2006, 11:42 AM
It's amazing how his contract is still such a big reason that people wish D.Carr wasn't a Texan. The simple fact is that he agreed to a legal contract 4 years ago that bound him to the team. In that contract, it stated that if the team wanted to keep him after the 4th year, which they did, they would have to pay him a large sum of money to do so. Contracts are contracts, and as much as many people hate it, it has already gone against the cap for this season. There is nothing that can be done about it now. Carr has the tools, we all know it. Build a bridge and get over it.

Ibar_Harry
06-20-2006, 12:42 PM
Where I have a difference with Vinny and others is my belief that Carr has been coached into oblivion. That is it has been the coaching that has lead him down the road of ineffectiveness. I truely believe the difference this year will be night and day.

Kubiak should be able to bring out the best of Carr. I think Kubiak knows he has a QB that can be compared to Elway in a lot of ways. They have the same skill sets, but to what degree is the question. I'm not saying Carr is Elway, but rather all the things that made Elway Carr has. Elway wasn't much until the later part of his career.

Almost everything the previous coaching staff did was detrimental to the team. Yes, folks it was that bad. The draft this year and the FA are going to pay big dividends. Moulds is simply going to make an astounding difference in the receiver play. The GB center is going to impact the line play tremendously. Despite what some say Wand played well the one year he really played even with a line that was not playing together. Sherman is going to prove to be the glue that brings the O-line together.

I think in addition to all of the obvious points mentioned in various discussions on this web site, training will emerge as a big factor. We have been a walking hospital the last few years and I believe it was because of the marine core regiment approach to footbal invisioned by the previous coaching staff. We still have some nagging injuries to people like DD, but I think we will be a lot better off this year.

In the old days players came in out of shape and under worked. That is not the case today for the majority of the players, and in fact, many may over work their bodies. These guys are carring a lot of weight and there is a great deal of stress being put on the bodies. The heat in Houston has to be approached carefully as that can lead to the break down of the body. One element of the Denver success has been a different style of training that is not used by most teams.

The real reason, however, that Carr will be much better is simply because of what Kubiak said. Carr will be better when we give him the tools he needs to succeed. He can't do it all by himself. Its a team game. I have been saying for sometime that my expectations are very high, because we now have a TEAM and a coaching staff working as a TEAM. Do not under estimate what this means for this ball club. As I usually say folks, get ready for the ride its going to be a long one and it will be fun.

Double Barrel
06-20-2006, 01:54 PM
Interesting take...that Carr was poorly coached as a reason for his mediocre first four years. BUT, when given the opportunity to call his own game (or half a game), he steps out of that bad coaching and does wonderful.

So I see folks using both angles - bad coaching and the Cardinals game last year - to defend Carr, but they seem to be at odds with each other. If he was badly coached, then wouldn't he have struggled during that particular game? idonno:

Of course, I'd love to see DC put up Pro-Bowl numbers this year, and even more to see Kubiak coach him to a HoF career.

But honestly, I'd be glad if he could be, at minimum, a Trent Dilfer-type QB - one who can manage a game and not lose it. Let the rest of the players and defense step up to take control, and let our QB get used to managing a dynamic gameplan before we expect Elway-like performances from him.

Lucky
06-20-2006, 02:02 PM
But honestly, I'd be glad if he could be, at minimum, a Trent Dilfer-type QB - one who can manage a game and not lose it.
That was how Carr was used the previous 4 seasons. You want to go back to that? No, I want David Carr to have a chance at winning games. Throw on 1st down. Challenge zone defenses by going over the top. Get out on the edge and put pressure on the secondary. That's why you draft a QB #1 and give him a $8 million option bonus. If you want a Trent Dilfer, trade for Trent Dilfer.

(Did I just post in another David Carr thread? Bad Lucky. :slap:)

TexanFan881
06-20-2006, 02:08 PM
With a 2-14 record and not a very good season last year, of course David needs improvement just like the rest of our team. Everyone has room for improvement. Bad coaching for 4 years obviously didn't help and Kubiak and Co are going to fix him. Sure it might take a little time but by the beginning of the season he'll be one to watch out for. It's not like he was a bad player before or anything...but we all knew that he wasn't reaching his full capabilities. He'll fly with the new system and the great new players we have brought in.

Hulk75
06-20-2006, 02:18 PM
Again..... the problem is that he is already being paid like a HOF..... and no, he hasn't shown that he can make every throw...... we know that his arm is strong enough to make every throw. & his hard work...... I know if I were David Carr, I know what I would have been doing in years past, and he hasn't been doing any of that..... &, he doesn't make stupid decisions that cost us games... he does make stupid decisions, that kill drives, or ruin our chances to advance the ball..... but not the one stupid decision(like McNabb does all the time) that looses the game.
He has not shown he make every throw, when, what times, what were the routes, tell me when he has not shown he could not do it.
I have seen him complete the deep ball on a line, lob it in, fades, outs ins, deep outs deep ins, slants are his specialty, can throw on the run, can throw off his back foot, did I miss one, O I did how about the one were the coach DOES NOT CALL ANYTHING BUT slants screens and deep balls.

Darren Woodson a Hall of Fame SS siad he can make every throw, I just dont know who to believe you or Darren Woodson.

When does he kill drives, what game, what play, what was the situation, the score, was it a sack, was it a run run before the 3rd and long were HE KILLED our chances.

I know which play the play were he went up top for the TD to put the stake in Jacksonvilles heart only to have the ball dropped by or 2nd string Wr Corey Bradford. OOOOO or how about the KC drive that got us into FG possition, I could keep going but I will not.

I will tell you this that his teammates have let him down more then Carr has let them down. It is not Carr VS his teammates but since we can point fingers here then I will point them more at his teammates and coaching then anything else.

hollywood_texan
06-20-2006, 02:41 PM
Darren Woodson a Hall of Fame SS siad he can make every throw, I just dont know who to believe you or Darren Woodson.

Who cares what a retired safety thinks that is a paid announcer? How many times does one of these guys say a guy can't cut it? It is very rare.

When does he kill drives, what game, what play, what was the situation, the score, was it a sack, was it a run run before the 3rd and long were HE KILLED our chances.

Example, 2004 year, Sunday night against Green Bay. The offense couldn't get one first down in the 4th quarter. The team lost by a field by Green Bay as time expired.

I know which play the play were he went up top for the TD to put the stake in Jacksonvilles heart only to have the ball dropped by or 2nd string Wr Corey Bradford. OOOOO or how about the KC drive that got us into FG possition, I could keep going but I will not.

Carr has had some good moments from time to time. But, he has thrown many balls in the ground out in the flat many times that should have been routine as handing the ball off.

I will tell you this that his teammates have let him down more then Carr has let them down. It is not Carr VS his teammates but since we can point fingers here then I will point them more at his teammates and coaching then anything else.

Hulk, you and many others have said that I have been to critical of Carr. It seems you are being too critical of his teammates. The most responsibility on the offense goes with the quarterback. Maybe you are right, maybe it mostly the other players fault than Carr's, but Carr as the quarterback has the most responsibility.

As I have said before, I believe Carr has the physical abilities but lacks that intangible thing to produce victories. Basically, I don't think he can cut it.

As for Carr being the most improved, I thought the offensive line was the worst in the NFL of all time. Wouldn't be reasonable that the offensive line or someone on that line would be most improved? According to many people, Carr's issues revolve around protection. Well, if his protection doesn't improve, how will his performance improve? Just a question of logic and not intended to be hate speech regarding Carr.

Hulk75
06-20-2006, 02:46 PM
Who cares what a retired safety thinks that is a paid announcer? How many times does one of these guys say a guy can't cut it? It is very rare.



Example, 2004 year, Sunday night against Green Bay. The offense couldn't get one first down in the 4th quarter. The team lost by a field by Green Bay as time expired.



Carr has had some good moments from time to time. But, he has thrown many balls in the ground out in the flat many times that should have been routine as handing the ball off.



Hulk, you and many others have said that I have been to critical of Carr. It seems you are being too critical of his teammates. The most responsibility on the offense goes with the quarterback. Maybe you are right, maybe it mostly the other players fault than Carr's, but Carr as the quarterback has the most responsibility.

As I have said before, I believe Carr has the physical abilities but lacks that intangible thing to produce victories. Basically, I don't think he can cut it.

As for Carr being the most improved, I thought the offensive line was the worst in the NFL of all time. Wouldn't be reasonable that the offensive line or someone on that line would be most improved? According to many people, Carr's issues revolve around protection. Well, if his protection doesn't improve, how will his performance improve? Just a question of logic and not intended to be hate speech regarding Carr.
..............:ok: -Sounds good.

real
06-20-2006, 02:53 PM
In all honesty I am a Carr Doubter as well, But at the same time I think he is serviceable...He can win games...he has....Can he win championships....Thats where the doubt starts to kick in...We don't have a player on offense that is going to step up and win the game for us...(based on last yr)...We have good talent, but we do not have one super star...And that is what scares me...In crunch time, what player are we gonna depend on??? A.J?? hasn't really proved himself to be elite...Carr...uhh..no...DD??...no.... D-Rob...?? nah.....Well anyways sorry to go off on a tantrum, but my whole point is that Carr gets a lot of the blame because we don't have any super freak, super stud skill players as of yet...So of course the blame will fall harder on Carr...Look at Delhomme with steve smith...He's the constant above par performer....We don't have any constant above Par Performers.......IMO, Carr is just as good as Delhomme, if not better.... if we can have one or two skill players perform at a SUPER star level then they will mask a lot of Carrs faults.....So in conclusion, we can't put the "blame" on Carr...I will put it on the coaching staff to find us a big time performer, or make one out of what we already have...

Hulk75
06-20-2006, 03:05 PM
In all honesty I am a Carr Doubter as well, But at the same time I think he is serviceable...He can win games...he has....Can he win championships....Thats where the doubt starts to kick in...We don't have a player on offense that is going to step up and win the game for us...(based on last yr)...We have good talent, but we do not have one super star...And that is what scares me...In crunch time, what player are we gonna depend on??? A.J?? hasn't really proved himself to be elite...Carr...uhh..no...DD??...no.... D-Rob...?? nah.....Well anyways sorry to go off on a tantrum, but my whole point is that Carr gets a lot of the blame because we don't have any super freak, super stud skill players as of yet...So of course the blame will fall harder on Carr...Look at Delhomme with steve smith...He's the constant above par performer....We don't have any constant above Par Performers.......IMO, Carr is just as good as Delhomme, if not better.... if we can have one or two skill players perform at a SUPER star level then they will mask a lot of Carrs faults.....So in conclusion, we can't put the "blame" on Carr...I will put it on the coaching staff to find us a big time performer, or make one out of what we already have...
One of the best Carr "Critiques" I have heard, Good Job, thats all I ask for some thing that has a little back bone to it, not just he always does this and always does that.
All I know is that we have a coach that thinks he can and a Owner, and I put trust in both of them.

Double Barrel
06-20-2006, 03:40 PM
That was how Carr was used the previous 4 seasons. You want to go back to that? No, I want David Carr to have a chance at winning games. Throw on 1st down. Challenge zone defenses by going over the top. Get out on the edge and put pressure on the secondary. That's why you draft a QB #1 and give him a $8 million option bonus. If you want a Trent Dilfer, trade for Trent Dilfer.

My Dilfer blast was more about Carr being consistent than actually putting up the same stats. Denver's offensive philosophy is run first and control the ground attack, instead of relying on your QBs arm to win games every time. (And, btw, what has Carr showed you in the past four seasons that leads you to believe that he is, in fact, a QB that can consistently throw on 1st, challenge zone defenses over the top and get out on the edge to put pressure on the secondary?)

As far as putting DC out there to challenge defenses (which he's not had a knack for great reads at this point - chalk it up to poor coaching if you'd like), I'd rather see if he can follow a dynamic game plan with halftime adjustments before demanding the he be the next Elway or Steve Young.

Learn to walk, young grasshopper, before you run. ;)

real
06-20-2006, 03:44 PM
One of the best Carr "Critiques" I have heard, Good Job, thats all I ask for some thing that has a little back bone to it, not just he always does this and always does that.
All I know is that we have a coach that thinks he can and a Owner, and I put trust in both of them.

I dont think its so much that they think Carr can win it for us as it is...We can win it WITH Carr...Now that I have trust in...:bananasplit:

jerek
06-20-2006, 03:45 PM
As surely as time marches on, the David Carr threads mutiply and grow. I could almost set my watch to one of these.

DocBar
06-20-2006, 03:50 PM
From what I've read, Carr needs to be working on his bowling game. :superman:

Scottyboy
06-20-2006, 03:57 PM
You're Right, you dont know what your talking about.

Deal with the Fact Carr's the man, and get over Vince!

Hear Titans could use some more fans.

Mr. White
06-20-2006, 04:10 PM
I had some doubts about Carr for a while myself. Then I looked at the QB's in the playoffs last year...especially DelHomme, Hasselbeck and Plummer.

If those guys can make it with the superior coaching that they had, then there's no reason to believe Carr can't. IMO, he's physically better than those guys.

real
06-20-2006, 04:10 PM
You're Right, you dont know what your talking about.

Deal with the Fact Carr's the man, and get over Vince!

Hear Titans could use some more fans.

Is that an oxymoron...or something similar

HJam72
06-20-2006, 04:59 PM
ThunderKyss, I've never been a Carr hater and I've defended him quite a bit in the past, but I agree with your main paints (as I see them):

1) Carr is worth keeping.

2) Carr should not be getting paid that much at this point. He hasn't proven that he's really worth it yet.

I guess the only thing we would probably disagree on here is whether he WILL be worth it in the future. I think this year is going to change most of his naysayers into pro-Carr fans, but we shall see.

HeartofHouston
06-20-2006, 05:02 PM
We all can have our opinions on Carr whether he is the man for us or not, should we have taken Leinart or Young.. and all that other Hoo Ha, but the fact of the matter is that Kube says that he's our guy and if Kube says so then I agree.. he coached Brian Griese and made him look like a genuis in that offense.. he coach Plummer and turn him from possible bust to Pro Bowl caliber.

Now some people is saying that he wasnt a great leader before but if you read the article he was actually a leader.. some people lead by example, some people leading with their voice and some people lead with both and what the staff is working on is making him one of the one that lead with both.

This guy has been sacked 220+ times.. I mean come on.. he's taken some hits where people would be ready to hang up their cleats.. and he dusts it off, gets up and takes the next snap. Did this guy have put his teammates on blast nope!! I mean come we owe this guy enough respect to call it how it is..

People say that his accuracy is bad, well what about the man MANY dropped balls.. did you guys take that in to consideration. People talk about his arm strength well he didnt seem to lack arm strength on that deep and might I add very accurate throw to Jerome Mathis for 60-some odd yards?? on and that thing people go crazy about.. his.. footwork.. well I dont know if you guys have been a QB or not but your QB coach whoever that may be.. refines your footwork to what HE feels is proper.. trust me I know..

So you wanna judge his footwork?? You need to look at who is coaches were on the offensive side of the ball.. I end this rant by saying Good Luck Carr, and I wish you the best of journies.. Go Texans..

GP
06-20-2006, 05:21 PM
Here we go again....

1. NFL starting QBs are hard to come by. They are so hard to come by that teams like the Titans won't even allow Billy Volek a split-second to even THINK about getting a trade to the Jets--Remember when Volek and his agent put it out there that they might want to get a trade to NY last season? Well, teams are holding onto their backups JUST as much as they are their starters. And this means that David Carr would be picked up in a heartbeat if we had not picked up his contract/option. And some other team would be giggling at the Texans for making such an impatient move.

2. Then, we'd be paying a probably-less-than-talented QB almost as much money...I envision Steve McNair, who is one big hit away from retirement...as we would have paid Carr. The team would be a wreck with a new guy at QB who has no chemistry whatsoever with the Texans, and the smart thing to do is to show the team that the ownership is dedicated to the players who honor their head coaches/any position coaches...it's called "building character within the organization," and Mr. Bob McNair has done a great job of discerning and filtering out what needed to go and what needed to stay. Case in point: Marciano stays as Special Teams coach.

3. So, because some of you think that our QB is the guy who stunk up the stadium for four years....and because you "think" that we should have thrown this heavy baggage over the edge of the ship....it's only reasonable for you to backpedal from your 100% Carr-hating stance of a few months ago, and to now softly climb back on board with the "Yeah, well...Carr might get it turned around, but we still shouldn't have paid him for money he didn't perform well enough for..." is just sad. You pay an investment on the basis of risking the seed money for a greater return. High risk? I don't think Carr is a high risk investment. Capers was the greater high risk investment, if you ask me. It's been well-documented about Capers' lone season of success vs. al the other seasons of his career as an HC. AND, there's news out there that Miami won't even allow Capers to structure the defense and its calls...he has to basically parrot what others above him have decided, and he has to basically coach from a third-party perspective. So any ideas about how "genius" of a coach Capers was needs to be settled by listening to sound reasoning. Carr, on the other hand, has been loyal and submitted to a a HC (Capers) who set up a solid foundation...but could not finish out the house. Thus leaving a lot of players out in the cold, sitting on a foundation with no walls and roof to seek shelter in.

You guys bashed the guy as if our woes were on his shoulders. Kubiak is not only re-programming our QB, but he's also making a splash on other areas of our team that were also just as badly affected by a team of coaches who provided a good foundation, yet could not finish out the rest of the house.

Now we have a proven winner at HC--A guy who played QB behind one of the best QBs in history, a guy who tutored QBs and made them better, and a guy who also has SUPER BOWL achievements on the offense side of the ball.

Why must we continue to debate the Carr option being picked up? If you say you're going to give the guy a chance, give the guy a chance OK? And make sure you come back and GLOAT if he fails. Now that will be the epitome of it all, all the people who will proudly rejoice in Carr failing (if he fails). I really have no idea as to why people can take such a hate-filled stance against a guy who didn't ask to be traded when HE was going through so much junk as our team's QB. He just sucked it up and marched on as if he KNEW he was the man for the job.

Pick a fight, and the rocks start flying...............

Lucky
06-20-2006, 05:25 PM
Learn to walk, young grasshopper, before you run. ;)
That's the Chris Palmer approach this team has been saddled with for 4 seasons. "Oh no, we can only put in 40% of the playbook. The crappy 40%, at that". The nightmare is over. Neither you, or me, or David Carr have to be hostages to that mentality any longer.

In 2004, David Carr led all NFL QBs in completion % of passes over 25 yards. He can throw deep. Only Michael Vick has accumulated more rushing yards for a QB over the past 2 seasons than David Carr. Heís no Vick (or Vince Young), but David can put pressure on a defense when on the move. And any QB has a better chance at making a play on 1st & 10 as opposed to 3rd & long.

Iím not sure what youíre referring to in regards to a dynamic game plan or a run first philosophy, but Kubiak has always utilized the pass as a weapon during his years as Denverís OC. The Broncoís donít operate a run & shoot, but they are effective when they do drop back. Denver finished in the top 10 in yards per pass attempt in 7 of 11 seasons with Kubiak. They made plays in the passing game, as opposed to the Texans who only passed if absolutely necessary. And even then, they could check into an off tackle run.

If Dom Davis and the Texans rushing attack could control a game, this team would have won more than 2 games last season. They have to pass the football. Which means the offensive line has to block. The receivers have to uncover and catch the football. And the QB has to deliver accurately and on time. In order to get anything from Davis and the running game, the Texans must have a capable passing attack. Must. Thatís what this offseason has been about for the offense. Get a competent #2 WR (Moulds). Bring in a legit pass receiving TE (Putzier). Find a center who can check into the correct blitz pickup (Flanagan). And start to build an offensive line from the ground up (Spencer & Winston). Most importantly, hire a coaching staff that knows what it takes to move the football and score points in a 21st century NFL.

No more spoon feeding. No more protecting. That didnít work the first time, it wonít work now. Itís time to throw these guys in the deep end and see if they can swim. Treat a man like a man, and heíll likely walk, talk, and act like a man.

Hulk75
06-20-2006, 05:28 PM
I dont think its so much that they think Carr can win it for us as it is...We can win it WITH Carr...Now that I have trust in...:bananasplit:
Hold on now..............Nobody has one a Superbowl on their own.

You cant tell me Ben was the reason the Steelers won the Superbowl. They had a dominant running game.

Hulk75
06-20-2006, 05:34 PM
Here we go again....

1. NFL starting QBs are hard to come by. They are so hard to come by that teams like the Titans won't even allow Billy Volek a split-second to even THINK about getting a trade to the Jets--Remember when Volek and his agent put it out there that they might want to get a trade to NY last season? Well, teams are holding onto their backups JUST as much as they are their starters. And this means that David Carr would be picked up in a heartbeat if we had not picked up his contract/option. And some other team would be giggling at the Texans for making such an impatient move.

2. Then, we'd be paying a probably-less-than-talented QB almost as much money...I envision Steve McNair, who is one big hit away from retirement...as we would have paid Carr. The team would be a wreck with a new guy at QB who has no chemistry whatsoever with the Texans, and the smart thing to do is to show the team that the ownership is dedicated to the players who honor their head coaches/any position coaches...it's called "building character within the organization," and Mr. Bob McNair has done a great job of discerning and filtering out what needed to go and what needed to stay. Case in point: Marciano stays as Special Teams coach.

3. So, because some of you think that our QB is the guy who stunk up the stadium for four years....and because you "think" that we should have thrown this heavy baggage over the edge of the ship....it's only reasonable for you to backpedal from your 100% Carr-hating stance of a few months ago, and to now softly climb back on board with the "Yeah, well...Carr might get it turned around, but we still shouldn't have paid him for money he didn't perform well enough for..." is just sad. You pay an investment on the basis of risking the seed money for a greater return. High risk? I don't think Carr is a high risk investment. Capers was the greater high risk investment, if you ask me. It's been well-documented about Capers' lone season of success vs. al the other seasons of his career as an HC. AND, there's news out there that Miami won't even allow Capers to structure the defense and its calls...he has to basically parrot what others above him have decided, and he has to basically coach from a third-party perspective. So any ideas about how "genius" of a coach Capers was needs to be settled by listening to sound reasoning. Carr, on the other hand, has been loyal and submitted to a a HC (Capers) who set up a solid foundation...but could not finish out the house. Thus leaving a lot of players out in the cold, sitting on a foundation with no walls and roof to seek shelter in.

You guys bashed the guy as if our woes were on his shoulders. Kubiak is not only re-programming our QB, but he's also making a splash on other areas of our team that were also just as badly affected by a team of coaches who provided a good foundation, yet could not finish out the rest of the house.

Now we have a proven winner at HC--A guy who played QB behind one of the best QBs in history, a guy who tutored QBs and made them better, and a guy who also has SUPER BOWL achievements on the offense side of the ball.

Why must we continue to debate the Carr option being picked up? If you say you're going to give the guy a chance, give the guy a chance OK? And make sure you come back and GLOAT if he fails. Now that will be the epitome of it all, all the people who will proudly rejoice in Carr failing (if he fails). I really have no idea as to why people can take such a hate-filled stance against a guy who didn't ask to be traded when HE was going through so much junk as our team's QB. He just sucked it up and marched on as if he KNEW he was the man for the job.

Pick a fight, and the rocks start flying...............
Good stuff all around.:cool:

real
06-20-2006, 05:51 PM
Hold on now..............Nobody has one a Superbowl on their own.

You cant tell me Ben was the reason the Steelers won the Superbowl. They had a dominant running game.

You are right...No one has technically won it on there own, but You can't deny that some have had much bigger impacts than others.....BUT I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying...I'll sum it up for you...David Carr=average QB(as of now)...Average QB+Extraordinary weapons= helluva season.....Carr+Current weapons=so so...asi asi....Point: Carr is just the scape goat for our offensive woes because he is in THE highest profile position on the team...Others including A.J, have underpreformed...Someone has gotta step up and be elite...We didn't have ONE elite player last year...So like I said..I think the coaching staff thinks he is good enuff to win...He's not gonna put the team on his back and Carry them to Victory ..ie VY..rosebowl....not saying we shoulda got vince young...just giving an example of what i mean by a player going out and winning a game...

thunderkyss
06-20-2006, 05:52 PM
hmmmm.......

I don't know how, " David Carr isn't playing at the level of a 4 year veteran" or "there isn't much difference between David Carr in 2006, and a Rookie starting QB" equates to....... "David Carr lost us 14 games in 2005", or "We'll never win a game in 2006"

but for some reason that is what happens when you criticize David Carr.

Gary Kubiak said David is the most improved player...... not me..... Kubiak said David has to learn how not to create sacks....... not me. Gary Kubiak said he has to teach David what it takes to be successful......

meaning...... he had a lot of room for improvement....... he causes more sacks than he should....... he doesn't know what it takes to be successful.

4 years into the league, and Gary Kubiak has to teach him how to go through a progression.......

I'm still waiting for the stories about how McKinney is improving...... or how DD really needs to get himself situated, because he has soooooo much to learn. Or how AJ needs to learn how to come out of a huddle.

Look....... bottom line. David was not the worse player on our team ever...... but we could use some major improvement from the QB position.

thunderkyss
06-20-2006, 05:58 PM
As a side note, for all you people setting your watch by David Carr threads..... this is the only thread(out of 25 of the last threads posted on(New Posts)) with the David Carr in the title.

Lucky
06-20-2006, 06:08 PM
4 years into the league, and Gary Kubiak has to teach him how to go through a progression...
Now, you're reaching. Kubiak never said that. Nice manuever.

Stories about McKinney, DD, or AJ won't always get in the Chronic or make the 10 o'clock news. A story about David Carr will. And check again; there are 2 David Carr threads on the front page.

How will Carr prove (blah, blah) (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=24102)

hollywood_texan
06-20-2006, 06:13 PM
If I was making the decisions in the draft last year, I would have taken Vince.

However, I can't argue with how they picked in the draft, brought in Kubiak and Sherman, and keeping Carr. I understand the approach and why, but that doesn't mean I think Carr will be an amazing quarterback.

I don't think Carr has the "IT" factor to put a team on his back but I do think he has the physical qualities though. I say that from 4 years of watching and listening to games and reading a lot articles and this board. Maybe I am wrong about putting the team on his back. I think we will shall see if he can do that this year.

I share a the same belief that we don't need an amazing quarterback to win the Super Bowl. Look at Tampa Bay and Baltimore. Even Tom Brady doesn't always look amazing, except for last year, the guy just made great decisions.

As long as we have a stout defense and a strong running game, Carr won't have to put the team on his back (I don't think he can but let's just leave it at that and see what happens this year).

Someone pointed out earlier that it is expensive to find another starting quarterback. True, if we got rid of Carr, we would have had to draft a QB or take Duante Culpepper, Joey Harrington, John Kitna, or someone else. Ouch. I think we are better off. It even gets more expensive when you are dumping a former #1 draft pick in a quarterback.

I have faith in Kubiak to get things rolling, but I am not sold on Carr's "IT" factor, which is due 4 years of really nothing to grade.

It seems to follow this:

1. Carr supporter - Carr has great physical abilities and marginal talent around him with poor coaching has lead to his ineffectiveness.

2. Carr a QB that can't cut it - Carr has the great physical abilities but just isn't going to get it done as an elite quarterback regardless of talent or coaching.

TK_Gamer
06-20-2006, 06:40 PM
Slow day



In all honesty, I can't imagine getting anything more for him, than Detroit got for Joey Harrington, if Detroit got anything at all..... I can't remember. But I think Carr would be looked at and treated like JH, in that the teams that he can start right away for, aren't very attractive.... The good teams, he'll be looked at as a solid backup, maybe future starter.

And to this date, that is what he has earned.



NO, if Carr succeeds, then you guys were right, in that Kubiak is the man who can turn Carr around..... even the Carr detractors say he has the tools, he has the potential..... we just don't believe we should still be paying him on potential.



Again..... the problem is that he is already being paid like a HOF..... and no, he hasn't shown that he can make every throw...... we know that his arm is strong enough to make every throw. & his hard work...... I know if I were David Carr, I know what I would have been doing in years past, and he hasn't been doing any of that..... &, he doesn't make stupid decisions that cost us games... he does make stupid decisions, that kill drives, or ruin our chances to advance the ball..... but not the one stupid decision(like McNabb does all the time) that looses the game.

since when is under 8 million hall of fame salary? you think he should make what? 5 million ? 4? so now he's not as good as most FA backups? you have to either pay him starting QB salary or you get rid of him, no QB is gonna start for scab money. I think the decision is whether you keep him or not, at that level money is almost written in stone , and has nothing to do with stats

HoustonFan
06-20-2006, 06:56 PM
Maybe McNair and some of his group do read the posts on this message board Kudos to them if they are.

Yeah, Carr has to be more vocal. I don't have a problem w/ him outside of that - granted some of the sacks he could have avoided, but it happens.

Is it football season yet?

Hulk75
06-20-2006, 07:01 PM
You are right...No one has technically won it on there own, but You can't deny that some have had much bigger impacts than others.....BUT I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying...I'll sum it up for you...David Carr=average QB(as of now)...Average QB+Extraordinary weapons= helluva season.....Carr+Current weapons=so so...asi asi....Point: Carr is just the scape goat for our offensive woes because he is in THE highest profile position on the team...Others including A.J, have underpreformed...Someone has gotta step up and be elite...We didn't have ONE elite player last year...So like I said..I think the coaching staff thinks he is good enuff to win...He's not gonna put the team on his back and Carry them to Victory ..ie VY..rosebowl....not saying we shoulda got vince young...just giving an example of what i mean by a player going out and winning a game...
I get it I dont agree that he cant take them "on his back", but I get what your saying.

Now that is College, not NFL Defenses and players.........Not taking anything at all from him but they were ranked 45 on Defense and they themselves had no playmakers. And I saw some sloppy sloppy containment, like not staying in your lanes and such and spys not doing their job like rushing when they got impatient.

TheCD
06-20-2006, 07:15 PM
SportingNews (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=100801)




Now....... what exactly does this mean??

To me, we have our new Head Coach...... Gary Kubiak. Basically saying the same things that guys like myself, Vinny, and a few other guys who get attacked for "bashing" David Carr.

David's been working on his arm, his accuracy, his footwork, and his leadership skills. Everything we said he needed to improve. Things you could see, that he was not doing, that he should be doing as a 4 year starter, #1 overall draft pick, even behind a poor offensive line.


So what's the point in this post??

Just to say...... we were right....

I understand being a fan, and sticking with your guy... but some of you here are just blinded by your loyalty, to call a duck a duck.....


Here we go again. I'll fight this one with you to do death, my friend...

What is Kubiak saying that you've been saying? He needs to work on his arm strength, accuracy and footwork? Every QB always has to work on arm strength and accruacy, as well as footwork. I don't care who you are, it is something that has to be worked on. Otherwise, you lose that ability altogether. There's not a QB in the league that doesn't work on these things.

As far as a leader, he could very well do more...and that's what they're helping him along with. Obviously, he's been a great leader on the field. They just want him to be more outspoken, that's all.

What do you mean he should already be doing these things? Yes...it's his job to become a competent QB. But it's the COACHES job to make the progression from a rookie QB to a quality starting QB. A guy who plays almost every down can only do so much...He's only got the one perspective to look from. It's the coaches job to give him the other perspectives necessary to allow him to take that next step. Ask any coach you want to...they'll agree with me on that one. Guaranteed.

And just because he's the "most improved player of the offseason" doesn't mean he wasn't a good (or great) player to begin with. Even the best players on teams can be the most improved. It's all about work-ethic and how much a player puts into their game (Which is more than I can say for what Reggie Bush is doing right now...but that's another topic entirely)


And just for a little side-note. Kubiak has said nothing that "Agrees" with your point of view, or anyone else. The statement was merely a casual remark as to what they're having him work on in training camp. It's the journalists and guys like you who put spins on things.

AFD1717
06-20-2006, 07:30 PM
Carr was the second gunman on the grassy knoll.

Ibar_Harry
06-20-2006, 07:41 PM
In all honesty I am a Carr Doubter as well, But at the same time I think he is serviceable...He can win games...he has....Can he win championships....Thats where the doubt starts to kick in...We don't have a player on offense that is going to step up and win the game for us...(based on last yr)...We have good talent, but we do not have one super star...And that is what scares me...In crunch time, what player are we gonna depend on??? A.J?? hasn't really proved himself to be elite...Carr...uhh..no...DD??...no.... D-Rob...?? nah.....Well anyways sorry to go off on a tantrum, but my whole point is that Carr gets a lot of the blame because we don't have any super freak, super stud skill players as of yet...So of course the blame will fall harder on Carr...Look at Delhomme with steve smith...He's the constant above par performer....We don't have any constant above Par Performers.......IMO, Carr is just as good as Delhomme, if not better.... if we can have one or two skill players perform at a SUPER star level then they will mask a lot of Carrs faults.....So in conclusion, we can't put the "blame" on Carr...I will put it on the coaching staff to find us a big time performer, or make one out of what we already have...

That's why Kubiak has said Carr can't do it alone. By the way he does have a guy now that can win the big ones and his name is Moulds. That aquistion could be the biggest so far for Houston. He is the big time WR who can tuitor AJ and at the same time have a big impact until and with AJ when he is ready.

Double Barrel
06-20-2006, 07:43 PM
That's the Chris Palmer approach this team has been saddled with for 4 seasons. "Oh no, we can only put in 40% of the playbook. The crappy 40%, at that". The nightmare is over. Neither you, or me, or David Carr have to be hostages to that mentality any longer.

I agree, man. Hopefully they give DC a lot more options to go to when he makes his reads at the LoS, too. It seemed he had two choices the past four seasons, and the only difference between the choice was right or left side.

In 2004, David Carr led all NFL QBs in completion % of passes over 25 yards. He can throw deep. Only Michael Vick has accumulated more rushing yards for a QB over the past 2 seasons than David Carr. Heís no Vick (or Vince Young), but David can put pressure on a defense when on the move. And any QB has a better chance at making a play on 1st & 10 as opposed to 3rd & long.

Extremely interesting stat, but I find stats a bit misleading. For instance, the one that says Carr's highest numbers is 205 yards in a game (which leads someone in the opposite direction of your point).

The problem with DC on the move, at least last season, was that he didn't scare defenses. A third of his sacks in 2005 was his own fault (as admitted by our current coaching staff).

While he does have good running numbers, these are more from running scared than a gameplan. I seriously doubt any defense in the league is concerned about his running ability. He might put up numbers like Vick, but he's nothing of the threat (and I'm not dissin' DC, just pointing out that some stats are a bit misleading).

Iím not sure what youíre referring to in regards to a dynamic game plan or a run first philosophy, but Kubiak has always utilized the pass as a weapon during his years as Denverís OC. The Broncoís donít operate a run & shoot, but they are effective when they do drop back. Denver finished in the top 10 in yards per pass attempt in 7 of 11 seasons with Kubiak. They made plays in the passing game, as opposed to the Texans who only passed if absolutely necessary. And even then, they could check into an off tackle run.

"Dynamic" gameplan in the sense of trying different schemes and making halftime adjustments. Carr has been in the league four years already, and these concept will be new to him simply because the previous coaching staff was so bland and without imagination. This is all I'm saying about learning to walk before you run, because we can't expect DC to be "the man" unless he's comfortable with a more "dynamic" offense.

You mentioned yourself that our offensive playbook will be much, much bigger, and this is all I'm saying.

With regards to a running game, Denver's passing game would be nothing if not for the fact that they can consistently pound the ball on the ground, and defenses must respect this first. Establish the run, make the defense guess and play against it, and you're passing game opens up.

If Dom Davis and the Texans rushing attack could control a game, this team would have won more than 2 games last season. They have to pass the football. Which means the offensive line has to block. The receivers have to uncover and catch the football. And the QB has to deliver accurately and on time. In order to get anything from Davis and the running game, the Texans must have a capable passing attack. Must. Thatís what this offseason has been about for the offense. Get a competent #2 WR (Moulds). Bring in a legit pass receiving TE (Putzier). Find a center who can check into the correct blitz pickup (Flanagan). And start to build an offensive line from the ground up (Spencer & Winston). Most importantly, hire a coaching staff that knows what it takes to move the football and score points in a 21st century NFL.

I agree about DD and winning more games.

But I think it's the other way around. The running game has to be established before you can truly establish your passing game. This is football 101 according to old school coaches. It establishes ball control, which is important that you keep the ball out of your oppositions hands for as long as possible.

Remember the run & shoot? Once defenses learned to play it, we became one-dimensional without a consistent, solid running attack.

No more spoon feeding. No more protecting. That didnít work the first time, it wonít work now. Itís time to throw these guys in the deep end and see if they can swim. Treat a man like a man, and heíll likely walk, talk, and act like a man.

I agree 100%. But only time will tell.

bayoudreamn
06-20-2006, 10:32 PM
SportingNews (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=100801)




Now....... what exactly does this mean??

To me, we have our new Head Coach...... Gary Kubiak. Basically saying the same things that guys like myself, Vinny, and a few other guys who get attacked for "bashing" David Carr.

David's been working on his arm, his accuracy, his footwork, and his leadership skills. Everything we said he needed to improve. Things you could see, that he was not doing, that he should be doing as a 4 year starter, #1 overall draft pick, even behind a poor offensive line.

Extending Carr's contract was the right thing to do..... because of what he had to go through, & the punishment he has taken...... largely not due to his own fault. The $8 million, in my mind, is what threw the option out, as a no brainer. Yes, extending Carr's contract is the right thing to do, but $8 million is too much to pay him for how he has played. 4 years is too long to still be paying a guy on potential.

So what's the point in this post??

Just to say...... we were right....

I understand being a fan, and sticking with your guy... but some of you here are just blinded by your loyalty, to call a duck a duck.....

I want to see David Carr succeede...... as I'm sure Vinny does.... I wanted to see Ragone, and Gaffney succeed as well.

During the season, you won't see me criticize Carr....... but when we are at a point, where we can make improvements, then we all need to be honest, and objective. A few months back, I know many fans read my posts, and formed opinions of me...... I'm a Carr hater, I look at the world through burnt orange glasses..... & I'm sure after reading some of my analysis, many have concluded that I don't know what I'm talking about.

So..... anyway..... carry on.

The coaches didn't say those things you listed, Sporting News did. The coach made a one sentence statement and the magazine took off in 50 different directions with all kinds of wild speculation. I think it's a good article, but I know it's an opinion and I'm respecting it for that.......and nothing more.

bayoudreamn
06-20-2006, 10:37 PM
It's amazing how his contract is still such a big reason that people wish D.Carr wasn't a Texan. The simple fact is that he agreed to a legal contract 4 years ago that bound him to the team. In that contract, it stated that if the team wanted to keep him after the 4th year, which they did, they would have to pay him a large sum of money to do so. Contracts are contracts, and as much as many people hate it, it has already gone against the cap for this season. There is nothing that can be done about it now. Carr has the tools, we all know it. Build a bridge and get over it.

Thank you!

bayoudreamn
06-20-2006, 10:43 PM
That was how Carr was used the previous 4 seasons. You want to go back to that? No, I want David Carr to have a chance at winning games. Throw on 1st down. Challenge zone defenses by going over the top. Get out on the edge and put pressure on the secondary. That's why you draft a QB #1 and give him a $8 million option bonus. If you want a Trent Dilfer, trade for Trent Dilfer.

(Did I just post in another David Carr thread? Bad Lucky. :slap:)

There's the comment we needed ("throw on first down"). I was beginning to think that was against the law in Texas. All the other teams were doing it....except for that other Texas team from the dark side and I can't speak of them because I don't watch 'em except to see us beat 'em. My apologies, Tom Landry, but your legend has been defiled

bayoudreamn
06-20-2006, 10:49 PM
Who cares what a retired safety thinks that is a paid announcer? How many times does one of these guys say a guy can't cut it? It is very rare.



Example, 2004 year, Sunday night against Green Bay. The offense couldn't get one first down in the 4th quarter. The team lost by a field by Green Bay as time expired.



Carr has had some good moments from time to time. But, he has thrown many balls in the ground out in the flat many times that should have been routine as handing the ball off.



Hulk, you and many others have said that I have been to critical of Carr. It seems you are being too critical of his teammates. The most responsibility on the offense goes with the quarterback. Maybe you are right, maybe it mostly the other players fault than Carr's, but Carr as the quarterback has the most responsibility.

As I have said before, I believe Carr has the physical abilities but lacks that intangible thing to produce victories. Basically, I don't think he can cut it.

As for Carr being the most improved, I thought the offensive line was the worst in the NFL of all time. Wouldn't be reasonable that the offensive line or someone on that line would be most improved? According to many people, Carr's issues revolve around protection. Well, if his protection doesn't improve, how will his performance improve? Just a question of logic and not intended to be hate speech regarding Carr.

Your 2004 example you are saying reflects on Carr, but your example blamed it on the offense. So which is it? Did Carr not move the ball down the field, or did the offense not move it?

People blame poor offensive production on quarterbacks all the time and it's often said that "that's why they get the big bucks"; however, that doesn't prove that it should be that way.

bayoudreamn
06-20-2006, 11:02 PM
hmmmm.......

I don't know how, " David Carr isn't playing at the level of a 4 year veteran" or "there isn't much difference between David Carr in 2006, and a Rookie starting QB" equates to....... "David Carr lost us 14 games in 2005", or "We'll never win a game in 2006"

but for some reason that is what happens when you criticize David Carr.

Gary Kubiak said David is the most improved player...... not me..... Kubiak said David has to learn how not to create sacks....... not me. Gary Kubiak said he has to teach David what it takes to be successful......

meaning...... he had a lot of room for improvement....... he causes more sacks than he should....... he doesn't know what it takes to be successful.

4 years into the league, and Gary Kubiak has to teach him how to go through a progression.......

I'm still waiting for the stories about how McKinney is improving...... or how DD really needs to get himself situated, because he has soooooo much to learn. Or how AJ needs to learn how to come out of a huddle.

Look....... bottom line. David was not the worse player on our team ever...... but we could use some major improvement from the QB position.

Gary Kubiak said every player starts with a clean slate and Gary Kubiak and several other coaches said no player would be judged based on what happened in the past. Nuff said.....

TwinSisters
06-20-2006, 11:32 PM
I gotta get in on the Carr thread.

Salary matters because of the cap. If we didn't have a cap, then his salary would only matter to McNair ( and maybe the price of parking, beer, tickets, etc. )

BUT we do have a cap, so his salary is a team issue.

Texanfan4ever
06-20-2006, 11:48 PM
hmmmm.......

I don't know how, " David Carr isn't playing at the level of a 4 year veteran" or "there isn't much difference between David Carr in 2006, and a Rookie starting QB" equates to....... "David Carr lost us 14 games in 2005", or "We'll never win a game in 2006"

but for some reason that is what happens when you criticize David Carr.

Gary Kubiak said David is the most improved player...... not me..... Kubiak said David has to learn how not to create sacks....... not me. Gary Kubiak said he has to teach David what it takes to be successful......

meaning...... he had a lot of room for improvement....... he causes more sacks than he should....... he doesn't know what it takes to be successful.

4 years into the league, and Gary Kubiak has to teach him how to go through a progression.......

I'm still waiting for the stories about how McKinney is improving...... or how DD really needs to get himself situated, because he has soooooo much to learn. Or how AJ needs to learn how to come out of a huddle.

Look....... bottom line. David was not the worse player on our team ever...... but we could use some major improvement from the QB position.


And I guess you know more than Gary Kubiak?

TexansLucky13
06-21-2006, 12:28 AM
$8 million is too much to pay him for how he has played.

You make that argument every now and then and I always counter you with the same thing. You need to show me some stats that prove how "bad" Carr is. He isn't halve as bad as you make him out to be. You know, people don't often think about it, but David has better stats than even Joey Harrington... who is considered to be an above average QB in most cases. How can that be so? How can Carr be soooo bad, when he is better than a large list of QBs who started in positions that are better than his own.

Yea, David got sacked a ton last year... but his stats were not severely low. He had an overall QB rating of 77.2 with 14 TDs, 11 INT and a pass completion percentage of 60.5. He didn't do terrible, and he even got 2488 yards... which is more than Harrington and Roethlisberger got. Considering how terrible our O-line was last year... you can't tell me that he didn't get "something out of nothing".

I'd say that once he get's his chin up (which is in progress!) and a solid O-line (which has been worked on), we may have ourselves one heck of a QB. I know it seems too late to be judging potential, but try to think of it this way. Do we believe that the Texans, in four years, have already shown all the potential that they have? Of course not. It's the same with Carr. He is the center of our franchise and we all try to have faith in him. I for one believed in him all along.

TwinSisters
06-21-2006, 02:24 AM
You make that argument every now and then and I always counter you with the same thing. You need to show me some stats that prove how "bad" Carr is.

cap hits

Tom Brady

2004 $ 5,062,950
2003 $ 3,323,450
2002 $ 1,091,613
2001 $ 314,993
2000 $ 205,800

David Carr

2004 $ 4,952,773
2003 $ 2,857,766
2002 $ 2,600,000

Petyon Manning

2004 $ 8,304,366
2003 $ 15,360,833
2002 $ 10,334,483
2001 $ 8,487,893
2000 $ 6,702,500

What did you pay for with Manning and Brady?: MVPs, Dynasties, Pro-Bowls, Canton real estate, epic games, records, wins, championships, and more wins.

What did you pay for with Carr?: one hair cut, one record, and one half of a game against one of the worst clubs in the history of the league. Nice.

He started out just fine... but the boy obviously has some work to catch up on, to make up on the lost pay. It's not like he is getting paid less with each passing season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carr Bomb
...Regardless of all those sacks and pressure he has been able to reach the 60% mark. While despite all of the protection Harrington has had, especialy in his first two seasons could not...
Lucky
I don't agree with you analysis. Harrington's lower sack total & lower completion % can be partially explained by his willingness to throw the ball away in the face of the pass rush. Carr is more likely to hold on to the ball and try to make a play. While I do believe Joey has gotten better pass protection than Carr, I don't think his blocking has been stellar.

On the flip side, Harrington's quick trigger has brought his toughness into question. What this tells me is that when you lose, critics will find something to complain about. If Carr & Harrington's teams start to win, most of their critics will go away.

texan279
06-21-2006, 03:25 AM
cap hits

Tom Brady

2004 $ 5,062,950
2003 $ 3,323,450
2002 $ 1,091,613
2001 $ 314,993
2000 $ 205,800

David Carr

2004 $ 4,952,773
2003 $ 2,857,766
2002 $ 2,600,000

Petyon Manning

2004 $ 8,304,366
2003 $ 15,360,833
2002 $ 10,334,483
2001 $ 8,487,893
2000 $ 6,702,500

What did you pay for with Manning and Brady?: MVPs, Dynasties, Pro-Bowls, Canton real estate, epic games, records, wins, championships, and more wins.

What did you pay for with Carr?: one hair cut, one record, and one half of a game against one of the worst clubs in the history of the league. Nice.

He started out just fine... but the boy obviously has some work to catch up on, to make up on the lost pay. It's not like he is getting paid less with each passing season.

MVP's, Pro Bowls, and the hall of fame mean nothing to the TEAM. And last time I checked Peyton hasn't even been to a Super Bowl. In 2004, Carr wasn't even one of the top 10 paid QB's in the league. You know AJ makes TO, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison kind of money and really has done nothing all that impressive either...

Hutch13
06-21-2006, 03:52 AM
MVP's, Pro Bowls, and the hall of fame mean nothing to the TEAM. And last time I checked Peyton hasn't even been to a Super Bowl. In 2004, Carr wasn't even one of the top 10 paid QB's in the league. You know AJ makes TO, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison kind of money and really has done nothing all that impressive either...

except that pro bowl AJ had 2 seasons ago

texan279
06-21-2006, 04:11 AM
except that pro bowl AJ had 2 seasons ago

So one Pro Bowl 2 seasons ago means AJ should be making Randy Moss kind of money? The pro bowl season he had he had around 1100 yards receiving and 6 TD's which to me is still not very impressive. In 2004 when AJ made the pro bowl, he ranked 17th in the NFL in yards receiving, 21st in receptions, wasn't even in the top 30 in receiving TD's, and only averaged 14.5 yards per catch. And like I said in my original post, pro bowls mean nothing to the team. Am I here just to dog on AJ, no, but he should be receiving the same criticism that Carr has been receiving for a very long time now on these boards.

wicked_wayz
06-21-2006, 05:24 AM
I agree about DD and winning more games.

But I think it's the other way around. The running game has to be established before you can truly establish your passing game. This is football 101 according to old school coaches. It establishes ball control, which is important that you keep the ball out of your oppositions hands for as long as possible.

Remember the run & shoot? Once defenses learned to play it, we became one-dimensional without a consistent, solid running attack.

yeah i totally agree the problem is, the opposition knew that DD was like 60% (maybe more like 45% buts thats still alot for one player) of this team's offense, so all they needed to do was shut him down and keep him out of the plays, and the game was already half won for them....

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 08:08 AM
since when is under 8 million hall of fame salary? you think he should make what? 5 million ? 4? so now he's not as good as most FA backups? you have to either pay him starting QB salary or you get rid of him, no QB is gonna start for scab money. I think the decision is whether you keep him or not, at that level money is almost written in stone , and has nothing to do with stats

Yeah, that's the way I see it.

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 08:44 AM
So one Pro Bowl 2 seasons ago means AJ should be making Randy Moss kind of money? The pro bowl season he had he had around 1100 yards receiving and 6 TD's which to me is still not very impressive. In 2004 when AJ made the pro bowl, he ranked 17th in the NFL in yards receiving, 21st in receptions, wasn't even in the top 30 in receiving TD's, and only averaged 14.5 yards per catch. And like I said in my original post, pro bowls mean nothing to the team. Am I here just to dog on AJ, no, but he should be receiving the same criticism that Carr has been receiving for a very long time now on these boards.

So when was the last time Randy Moss or T.O. Been to the ProBowl??

In his first three years, T.O. had 2553 yards..... his best season(of those first three years, 1097 yards, 67 catches, in 16 games.)

Randy Moss..... is a freak, and you just can't compare anyone to him.

Marvin Harrison... 2,476 yards his firt three years.... his best year, he had 73 catches, in 16 games.

Andre Johnson.... 2806 yards in his first three years... 79 catches his best year.

Everything about AJ says he is a player at that level.... he compares well with those guys, and he's only getting better.

Same with DD...... you can't find a scrub that has put up numbers equal to DDs for 4 years running....... DD is the real thing.

You have to go back to the 70s to find a winning QB with numbers like Carr's his first 4 years. Aaron Brooks' looks like a monster...... a proBowler, and a shoe in for the Hall of Fame compared to David Carr stat wise.

chuckm
06-21-2006, 08:46 AM
Wow another David Carr blows thread ..... I gotta get in on this one ..... nah

bigbrewster2000
06-21-2006, 09:20 AM
So one Pro Bowl 2 seasons ago means AJ should be making Randy Moss kind of money? The pro bowl season he had he had around 1100 yards receiving and 6 TD's which to me is still not very impressive. In 2004 when AJ made the pro bowl, he ranked 17th in the NFL in yards receiving, 21st in receptions, wasn't even in the top 30 in receiving TD's, and only averaged 14.5 yards per catch. And like I said in my original post, pro bowls mean nothing to the team. Am I here just to dog on AJ, no, but he should be receiving the same criticism that Carr has been receiving for a very long time now on these boards.

The reason why he doesn't recieve the same type of criticism is that #1 the offense has to be good enough so Carr can get the ball to AJ on a consistent basis. AJ has been basically the only recieving weapon that we have had on the Texans. 2nd there are not very many 2nd year WR's that make it to the Pro Bowl because WR's usually take between 3 to 4 years to adjust to the league. AJ is ahead of the curve. If you want to dispute last year, he was not the one calling for the screen pass every time neither did he ask to get injured. Did he drop passes last year YES! Does he need to work on it YES! Will Moulds help out in that area probably. The whole offense will be better. If it is not after this year then we can all start to criticze whoever. Until then please for the love of pete STOP THE SILLYNESS! BTW ThunderKyss, how does David Carr improving mean anything? Don't you want your QB to improve his skills? This thread like most Carr threads are baffling and tiresome. Yawn

texan279
06-21-2006, 09:30 AM
So when was the last time Randy Moss or T.O. Been to the ProBowl??

In his first three years, T.O. had 2553 yards..... his best season(of those first three years, 1097 yards, 67 catches, in 16 games.)

Randy Moss..... is a freak, and you just can't compare anyone to him.

Marvin Harrison... 2,476 yards his firt three years.... his best year, he had 73 catches, in 16 games.

Andre Johnson.... 2806 yards in his first three years... 79 catches his best year.

Everything about AJ says he is a player at that level.... he compares well with those guys, and he's only getting better.

Same with DD...... you can't find a scrub that has put up numbers equal to DDs for 4 years running....... DD is the real thing.

You have to go back to the 70s to find a winning QB with numbers like Carr's his first 4 years. Aaron Brooks' looks like a monster...... a proBowler, and a shoe in for the Hall of Fame compared to David Carr stat wise.

So, it's alright for AJ to make 8 million a year because he shows the POTENTIAL to be a future TO or Harrison and his first 3 seasons worth of stats compare to theirs, yet you complain because we pay Carr 8 million on potential?

Troy Aikman's first 4 seasons
59.65 completion percentage 10527 yards 54 TD's 60 INT's

John Elway's first 4 seasons
53.35 completion percentage 11637 yards 66 TD's 65 INT's

Warren Moon's first 4 seasons
53.3 completion percentage 12342 yards 61 TD's 77 INT's

Phil Simms first 4 seasons
52.1 completion percentage 10269 yards 61 TD's 72 INT's

David Carr's first 4 seasons
57.7 completion percentage 10624 yards 48 TD's 53 INT's

I guess since Carr compares well with these other winning QB's in their 1st 4 seasons there should be no problem paying him the 8 million since it's OK for AJ to make the same based on his first 3 seasons compared to other WR's right? And I didn't even say anything about DD but I'll go there. DD had 2 seasons with just over 1000 yards and last season just under 1000. 1000 yards rushing is nothing anymore in the NFL. DD is a good, serviceable back, not a great, superstar back. And DD has only been in the league 3 seasons not 4.

real
06-21-2006, 09:32 AM
I get it I dont agree that he cant take them "on his back", but I get what your saying.

Now that is College, not NFL Defenses and players.........Not taking anything at all from him but they were ranked 45 on Defense and they themselves had no playmakers. And I saw some sloppy sloppy containment, like not staying in your lanes and such and spys not doing their job like rushing when they got impatient.

You are absolutely right....It was college...Ofcourse they aren't going to be facing NFL Caliber Talent and schemes....But thats the thing I don't get when people are so quick to point out that V.Young will fail...Everyone of those players in that draft played in the NCAA...All of them were in college last year...Soooooo.....If V.Young was a top five player in such a deep draft, what makes you think that he's not going to get better just like everyone of those players in that draft...Why would he be playing on the same level he did in college while he looks at everyone else getting better...He is being COACHED...and not a bad coach at that...Norm Chow.....Point: V.Young was the best of the best in his class....they'll get better, and fix bad habbits...so will he...And as far as taking a team on his back...I'm just saying that Carr hasn't done it yet.. I don't think he can...thats JMO, but i would love for him to prove me wrong...:twocents:

GP
06-21-2006, 09:40 AM
If I was making the decisions in the draft last year, I would have taken Vince.
However, I can't argue with how they picked in the draft, brought in Kubiak and Sherman, and keeping Carr. I understand the approach and why, but that doesn't mean I think Carr will be an amazing quarterback.

I don't think Carr has the "IT" factor to put a team on his back but I do think he has the physical qualities though. I say that from 4 years of watching and listening to games and reading a lot articles and this board. Maybe I am wrong about putting the team on his back. I think we will shall see if he can do that this year.

I share a the same belief that we don't need an amazing quarterback to win the Super Bowl. Look at Tampa Bay and Baltimore. Even Tom Brady doesn't always look amazing, except for last year, the guy just made great decisions.

As long as we have a stout defense and a strong running game, Carr won't have to put the team on his back (I don't think he can but let's just leave it at that and see what happens this year).

Someone pointed out earlier that it is expensive to find another starting quarterback. True, if we got rid of Carr, we would have had to draft a QB or take Duante Culpepper, Joey Harrington, John Kitna, or someone else. Ouch. I think we are better off. It even gets more expensive when you are dumping a former #1 draft pick in a quarterback.

I have faith in Kubiak to get things rolling, but I am not sold on Carr's "IT" factor, which is due 4 years of really nothing to grade.

It seems to follow this:

1. Carr supporter - Carr has great physical abilities and marginal talent around him with poor coaching has lead to his ineffectiveness.

2. Carr a QB that can't cut it - Carr has the great physical abilities but just isn't going to get it done as an elite quarterback regardless of talent or coaching.

Vince Young is just as big of a risk as David Carr.

Because a guy was dominant in college doesn't equate to NFL success: The NFL draft is littered with top picks going bust, and it's also full of late round picks who become Hall of Famers.

VY will have a learning curve in the NFL of probably anywhere from 2-4 years...so let's slow down on the "VY is the answer" trip.

IMO, so much of the pro-VY crowd is a simple over-reaction to the "wow" factor of what he did last season, especially in the championship game. I won't pretend he didn't impress me...but I also won't say that beating up on a 32nd-ranked defense impresses me, either. This year's USC team was very vulnerable (Notre Dame and Fresno St. come to mind) as opposed to the previous two teams. But that's neither here nor there.

The real point is that you say you have faith in Kubiak to get things rolling, but yet you cannot, or will not, get on board with the idea that Carr (whom Kubiak RETAINED as QB) has the ability to be "it." I feel he has always had the "it" factor, but has had his talent and opportunities for success repressed by a coaching philosophy that ran completely contrary to our team's talents and abilities. We had explosive and dynamic players (Carr, Davis, Mathis, AJ) and they were forced to run plays that you and I can draw up in the dirt at a flag football game. Period.

The back pedal has begun for the Hate Carr crowd. You can't say that Kubiak can get things righted...and neglect that Carr will be a big part of that transformation. Oh, it'll be because we have better blocking, better receiving, better pass rush from our top draft pick, a 4-3 defense, etc. While those will happen and are all going to be true, it wasn't provided to Carr the first four years of HIS career...but yet he's just a dud who got by on looks or whatever it is that you think earned him an extension.

I'm all about cheering on our team's players. P-Buch is a guy whom I think was a bad acquisition, but yet the fan in me still cheers him on and hopes he succeeds. His success is our success, that's the way I look at it. Again: Why some of you have this personal vendetta is beyond me. Since we've played the race card a few times before...let me play the religion card. Is it because he's a Christian? The popular thing to do in America right now is to proudly bash the Christian community and get a few giggles out of it. I just can't figure out why, or on what basis, Carr can be the focus of so much anger and ridicule.

Did he "perform" to the best of his abilities? Nope. But can he? Yep.

In poker, the term is "pot committed..." meaning that you've put so much of your chips into the pot that you'd be wise to stay for the last betting round to see if you won the hand (instead of bailing and never knowing). You're committed to the pot, so stick around.

Bob McNair is committed to seeing if Carr can be the guy he and others think he can be. So stick around and watch how this hand plays out. I put my bet on Kubiak AND Carr.

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 09:41 AM
David Carr's first 4 seasons
57.7 completion percentage 10624 yards 48 TD's 53 INT's

I guess since Carr compares well with these other winning QB's in their 1st 4 seasons there should be no problem paying him the 8 million since it's OK for AJ to make the same based on his first 3 seasons compared to other WR's right? And I didn't even say anything about DD but I'll go there. DD had 2 seasons with just over 1000 yards and last season just under 1000. 1000 yards rushing is nothing anymore in the NFL. DD is a good, serviceable back, not a great, superstar back. And DD has only been in the league 3 seasons not 4.


So I was wrong ........... you only had to go back 14 years to find stats as bad as Carr's for a starting QB....

texan279
06-21-2006, 09:46 AM
So I was wrong ........... you only had to go back 14 years to find stats as bad as Carr's for a starting QB....

And we all know how bad Warren Moon, John Elway, Troy Aikman, and Phil Simms were at playing QB...

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 09:52 AM
The back pedal has begun for the Hate Carr crowd. You can't say that Kubiak can get things righted...and neglect that Carr will be a big part of that transformation. Oh, it'll be because we have better blocking, better receiving, better pass rush from our top draft pick, a 4-3 defense, etc. While those will happen and are all going to be true, it wasn't provided to Carr the first four years of HIS career...but yet he's just a dud who got by on looks or whatever it is that you think earned him an extension.


David Carr sucked the last two years..... I would not have given him an $8 million bonus on top of his salary to play football, if I were in such a position.

I'm not backpedaling. If David Carr starts acting like a great QB, I'll say, "I was wrong about David... he does have what it takes to be a great QB"

But the point is, that he has been playing poorly behind a poor line.

texan279
06-21-2006, 09:56 AM
David Carr sucked the last two years..... I would not have given him an $8 million bonus on top of his salary to play football, if I were in such a position.

I'm not backpedaling. If David Carr starts acting like a great QB, I'll say, "I was wrong about David... he does have what it takes to be a great QB"

But the point is, that he has been playing poorly behind a poor line.

Sucked the last 2 seasons? He completed 60.8 percent of his passes, threw for over 6000 yards, 30 TD's and 25 INT's.

Vinny
06-21-2006, 09:58 AM
Sucked the last 2 seasons? He completed 60.8 percent of his passes, threw for over 6000 yards, 30 TD's and 25 INT's.I tend to judge a guy with my eyeballs...not some stat line. He hasn't played well no matter how you slice it if you just honestly watch the games. Stats are for baseball.

texan279
06-21-2006, 10:00 AM
I tend to judge a guy with my eyeballs...not some stat line. He hasn't played well no matter how you slice it if you just honestly watch the games. Stats are for baseball.

I didn't say he played great, but considering the play around him in the offense and the poor playcalling and schemes I'd say he played pretty good with what he had to work with.

Vinny
06-21-2006, 10:01 AM
I'd say he played pretty good with what he had to work with.You would...but obviously I wouldn't. Hopefully he plays better this season.

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 10:03 AM
And we all know how bad Warren Moon, John Elway, Troy Aikman, and Phil Simms were at playing QB...

Look, you having to go back to 1984, to find two QBs with stats as bad as Carr's, is worse than your little "fact" that 1000 yards ain't nothing....

1984....... to find 2.


that's more than 20 years.....

in more than 20 years, there has only been two guys that have played as....

ah. forget it.....

texan279
06-21-2006, 10:07 AM
Look, you having to go back to 1984, to find two QBs with stats as bad as Carr's, is worse than your little "fact" that 1000 yards ain't nothing....

1984....... to find 2.


that's more than 20 years.....

in more than 20 years, there has only been two guys that have played as....

ah. forget it.....

I looked for some of the better QB's of all time's stats, I didn't go by a timeline. And 1000 yards rushing isn't a big deal in the NFL anymore. 16 RB's in the NFL rushed for over 1000 yards last season, and 5 of them rushed for over 1500. in 2004 18 RB's rushed for more than 1000 yards, that is more than half of the starting RB's in the NFL, and 5 of them rushed for over 1500 yards in 2004.

Vinny
06-21-2006, 10:08 AM
:homer: Comparing Carr's game (after 60 largely unproductive starts) with Hall of Fame QB's would only be done on a Texans board.

Lucky
06-21-2006, 10:10 AM
But the point is, that he has been playing poorly behind a poor line.
That's a riddle, not a point.

And the issue isn't whether you would give David Carr $8 million on top of his salary. The issue is if you would retain Carr's services for a option bonus or let him walk as a free agent. At least be honest when you bring up the issue of the $8 million.

texan279
06-21-2006, 10:11 AM
:homer: Comparing Carr's game (after 60 largely unproductive starts) with Hall of Fame QB's would only be done on a Texans board.

Just like AJ's first 3 seasons were compared to Harrison's and TO's first 3 seasons earlier in the thread.

Vinny
06-21-2006, 10:13 AM
I wouldn't do that either...but I wouldn't do it with Carr just because someone else does it with AJ.

texan279
06-21-2006, 10:15 AM
I wouldn't do that either...but I wouldn't do it with Carr just because someone else does it with AJ.

I was just trying to prove a point to someone using their own method...

bigbrewster2000
06-21-2006, 10:37 AM
David Carr sucked the last two years..... I would not have given him an $8 million bonus on top of his salary to play football, if I were in such a position.

I'm not backpedaling. If David Carr starts acting like a great QB, I'll say, "I was wrong about David... he does have what it takes to be a great QB"

But the point is, that he has been playing poorly behind a poor line.
Well most of us are thankful that you are not our Head Coach or GM or even part of the Team aside from supposed fan. We are all aware that you would not have paid the 8 mil and you would rather wait another 2 or 3 or more years to win but the rest of the sane fans that want to see us suceed as a team, regardless of the QB don't really care for your opinion. You have chosen to ignore most of the point that people have plopped right in your face and are staying bull headed. Again, what was your point originally about this thread? That you were somehow dissapointed that DC has greatly improved so far in the offseason? It seems to me that a true fan would be excited about that not dissapointed.

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 11:35 AM
I looked for some of the better QB's of all time's stats, I didn't go by a timeline. And 1000 yards rushing isn't a big deal in the NFL anymore. 16 RB's in the NFL rushed for over 1000 yards last season, and 5 of them rushed for over 1500. in 2004 18 RB's rushed for more than 1000 yards, that is more than half of the starting RB's in the NFL, and 5 of them rushed for over 1500 yards in 2004.

of the 16, and the 18, how many have done it multiple years??

I was just trying to prove a point to someone using their own method...

& I'm saying it isn't the same method, when one guy is being compared to his contemporaries, and another is being compared to guys who played a totally different game, with a different mindset..... when you could take 6 years to develop. & those guys with those stats still possessed intangibles, that led their teams to success we have not seen, in their first four years..... we're still trying to get a winning season......

Not all David's fault, I'm not saying that.... but we need major improvement from the QB position. It would be nice, if David can be the QB to provide that improvement.

But if we think David Carr played the best he possibly could, behind the line that we gave him, and if we expect him to play at the same level behind a better line..... then we're in trouble.

Well most of us are thankful that you are not our Head Coach or GM or even part of the Team aside from supposed fan. We are all aware that you would not have paid the 8 mil and you would rather wait another 2 or 3 or more years to win but the rest of the sane fans that want to see us suceed as a team, regardless of the QB don't really care for your opinion. You have chosen to ignore most of the point that people have plopped right in your face and are staying bull headed. Again, what was your point originally about this thread? That you were somehow dissapointed that DC has greatly improved so far in the offseason? It seems to me that a true fan would be excited about that not dissapointed.

Bigbrewster2000..... nice to meet you mr"newspokespersonfortheHoustonTexansfans"

my point was clearly stated in my first post.... David Carr is improving. we had the worst offensive line in the history of football. We had the 2nd(I think) worse defense against the run..... and pretty darn bad against the pass.... but our most improved player thus far..... is David Carr.

Gary Kubiak said David caused 20 out of 68 sacks..... 29%. Gary Kubiak said he needs to teach David how to get out of the huddle, and to the line quicker.. Gary Kubiak has said that he wants to teach Carr to look for the second and third option..... not all in this article, but since he's been here. In this article, he has David improving his footwork, his accuracy, and his arm.... he is also challenging David to be a vocal leader.......

David needed to improve his play.... he was not the best he could've/should've been in 2005....

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 11:45 AM
Gary Kubiak said David caused 20 out of 68 sacks..... 29%.

Just to be clear, John McClain said on his 610am radio show that the Texans had reviewed Carr's sacks and concluded 20 were his responsibility. Kubiak was likely a part of that process but was not directly stated as the source and hasn't made such a statement. McClain also did not specify the time period reviewed--1 season, 2 or all 4. Now if it was all 4, 20 would be a non-issue so it almost certainly wasn't that. Most likely is last season alone but we don't know for certain. The statement was also made pre-option bonus so the coaches would appear to believe the situation was a coachable one.

Gary Kubiak said he needs to teach David how to get out of the huddle, and to the line quicker..

Really, where? Haven't seen any such statement attributed to Kubiak. What has been said repeatedly was Palmer and Pendry were very slow getting plays to Carr in the huddle and a couple of comments have been made about Carr being frustated with that fact. I believe Carr even mentioned getting the plays in quicker this off-season as a positive of the new system.

Gary Kubiak has said that he wants to teach Carr to look for the second and third option..... not all in this article, but since he's been here.

Do you recall where this was stated? There has been a lot of talk by the team and Carr about giving him options. Haven't seen a comment such as that from Kubiak--not saying it isn't something Carr needs to work on--just haven't seen it from Kubiak.

texan279
06-21-2006, 11:56 AM
of the 16, and the 18, how many have done it multiple years??

Of the 16, 9 have had 2 or more seasons with over 1000 yards rushing, and of the 18, 15 have had more than 2 seasons with over 1000 yards rushing.

texan279
06-21-2006, 12:00 PM
he was not the best he could've/should've been in 2005....

Neither was Andre Johnson and he makes more than Carr...

Ibar_Harry
06-21-2006, 12:06 PM
Neither was Andre Johnson and he makes more than Carr...

I think when you watch Moulds this year you will see a lot of AJ's deficiencies unless AJ is finally learning. Does AJ have a lot of talent, most certainly. Is he using that talent, NO. We got rid of the core of our wide receiver core and replaced it with new players. There is a reason and you will see it this season. Basically Carr really had no one to throw to who knew how to get open. Teams allowed AJ and DD to have the short ones, because that wasn't going to beat them. This year it will be very different. We have an excellent, not average, receiver core across the line. This year we have WR's and TE's that can spell trouble for any team we play.

TwinSisters
06-21-2006, 12:13 PM
Neither was Andre Johnson and he makes more than Carr...

Wand is overpaid too, but that doesn't negate Carr's cap hit either.

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 12:17 PM
Wand is overpaid too, but that doesn't negate Carr's cap hit either.

Seth Wand's cap hit is $728 k--that's dirt cheap for a guy who may be the starting LT--heck it is cheap for a back up LT.

TwinSisters
06-21-2006, 12:22 PM
Seth Wand's cap hit is $728 k--that's dirt cheap for a guy who may be the starting LT--heck it is cheap for a back up LT.

Really? Crap let me look and see what's going on

Wade not Wand... dammit. Eesh I need a nap.

---

Anyway the whole point with the cap hit is that you have to apply as many bucks to the field as possible ( that is going to give you the best chance to win for every second played ). 7,000,000 million on a 4,000,000 dollar QB is 3,000,000 over that could be going to another player or three or just incentives and bonuses.

---
so that's like 4 Seth Wands with almost enough change to make 5 Seth Wands.

Just kidding around... I wouldn't want 5 Seth Wands either. Most likely why I get the two mixed up. Both Wade and Wand have failed at different times.

---

EDIT

http://www.sportsmaker.com/pages/articles/car.htm

I believe this story already made the rounds during the draft, but I am going to pile it on here again. Simply because it has Dave Krieg and a psychologist lumped together with Jim Zorn and Dilfer. That's good readin' fellas. :)


If only it were that easy. Then Carr could just push away the punishment, concentrate on his reads, and fire footballs down the field to receivers he admits he "feels bad" for.

The problem, according to Dr. Richard Crowley, is that Carr compounds his woes by not addressing them. As a psychologist based in California, Crowley teaches a technique called "mental mechanics" to help athletes overcome their mental blocks. He points to Carr's statistical drop this season from the one before, in which he still took 49 sacks, to show decline.

"There's a pattern going on," Crowley says, "and a lot of it is out of his control. But the decrease in performance indicates that it's catching up with him. Something weird is happening. A disconnect that has him totally out of sync. And not addressing it is likely anxiety."

eheh OOooo... my abs. Hurt. Pain. Just like being married and seeing the headshrink.

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 01:24 PM
Neither was Andre Johnson and he makes more than Carr...


Okay, you win.... Andre Johnson needs to improve his play.... to earn his pay.

Doesn't change the fact that David Carr was not a god in 2005, and has much room for improvement.

Of the 16, 9 have had 2 or more seasons with over 1000 yards rushing, and of the 18, 15 have had more than 2 seasons with over 1000 yards rushing.

Okay in 2005, the only runningbacks to rush for over 1000 yards, that didn't go to the playoffs, were:

Larry Johnson: Kansas City went 10-6, and had 3800 yards of passing offense. Only 5 teams had a more prolific passing attack.

Ladainian Tomlinson: San Diego.... 9-7.......... 3,495 passing yards.... 12th in passing.

Warrick Dunn...... 8-8...... not much in passing, but they had 3 runningbacks on the field on every down.......

Willis McGahee....... he was on a team just as bad as ours.........

Stephen Jackson...... 6-10... but they had over 4000 yards passing...

Lamont Jordan......... 4-12...... 3,582 passing yards..... 10th in the NFL.

Julius Jones didn't top 1000yards......... hasn't yet..... but he did rush for 17 more yards than DD...... the Cowboys went 9-7... with 3300 passing yards.

So in conclusion........ only McGahee has performed, while on a bad bad team. & McGahee is the real deal......

there are only 32 teams in the NFL......... there are only two teams that passed for less yards than we did...

texan279
06-21-2006, 04:49 PM
Okay in 2005, the only runningbacks to rush for over 1000 yards, that didn't go to the playoffs, were:

Larry Johnson: Kansas City went 10-6, and had 3800 yards of passing offense. Only 5 teams had a more prolific passing attack.

Ladainian Tomlinson: San Diego.... 9-7.......... 3,495 passing yards.... 12th in passing.

Warrick Dunn...... 8-8...... not much in passing, but they had 3 runningbacks on the field on every down.......

Willis McGahee....... he was on a team just as bad as ours.........

Stephen Jackson...... 6-10... but they had over 4000 yards passing...

Lamont Jordan......... 4-12...... 3,582 passing yards..... 10th in the NFL.

Julius Jones didn't top 1000yards......... hasn't yet..... but he did rush for 17 more yards than DD...... the Cowboys went 9-7... with 3300 passing yards.

So in conclusion........ only McGahee has performed, while on a bad bad team. & McGahee is the real deal......

there are only 32 teams in the NFL......... there are only two teams that passed for less yards than we did...

Ok, you said nothing about any RB making the playoffs or being on a bad team, you asked me which running backs rushed for over 1000 yards for multiple seasons and I posted those. Then you try to add passing stats in. You said nothing about passing stats. Good lord, you ask for one thing, I give it to you, and then you try to turn it around to help your argument. Fact is, the Texans as a team ranked 15th in the NFL last season, so our running game as a whole wasn't that bad. And my point of all this is not to try and portray Carr "as a God", it's to show that other players like AJ on the team have underperformed in the past but the only threads you see on here are Carr threads, why is he the only one criticized like he is? Just because he is our QB?

TexansLucky13
06-21-2006, 05:35 PM
I tend to judge a guy with my eyeballs...not some stat line. He hasn't played well no matter how you slice it if you just honestly watch the games. Stats are for baseball.

All of the visual things that Carr struggles with can be improved. Pair that with his not so terrible last 2 seasons, and you find a bit of the reason why Bob decided to give him the purse. Other than that it's purely business.

Manning is overpaid. Brady makes what he deserves. Carr is a gamble. There is no denying that he is a risk.

But my argument is this:

David Carr is not as terrible as some make him out to be. I too, Vinny, have watched games. Many of them. Carr makes bad decisions. But he is in no way terrible.

Does David deserve the money? Only time will tell. Anyone could argue that from this point, he hasn't done anything to deserve that much. If he does not improve next year, then I will agree with thunderkyss and Vinny that the money was well wasted. But I have faith in him.

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 06:28 PM
Fact is, the Texans as a team ranked 15th in the NFL last season, so our runnig game as a whole wasn't that bad.

Take Carr's rushing stats out of the total and you find the Texans were much more mediocre at rushing last season than a 15th ranking would otherwise reflect.

For example Indy was in "16th" 100 yds behind Houston, but Manning rushed for over 250 yds less than Carr. Indy had a better rushing O than Houston did regardless of total yards.

texan279
06-21-2006, 06:31 PM
Take Carr's rushing stats out of the total and you find the Texans were much more mediocre at rushing last season than a 15th ranking would otherwise reflect.

For example Indy was in "16th" 100 yds behind Houston, but Manning rushed for over 250 yds less than Carr. Indy had a better rushing O than Houston did regardless of total yards.

Take away the 308 Carr rushed for and we still had over 1500 rushing yards as a team.

Double Barrel
06-21-2006, 06:32 PM
Manning is overpaid.

By whose standards? Dude is easily one of the top three QBs in the NFL right now.

infantrycak
06-21-2006, 06:34 PM
Take away the 308 Carr rushed for and we still had over 1500 rushing yards as a team.

Which would have put us in 26th rather than 15th. My point was not that the Texans rushing offense sucked, just that the ranking on total is deceptive as to its effectiveness.

powerfuldragon
06-21-2006, 06:35 PM
All i see when i read this thread is "wah wah wah."

texan279
06-21-2006, 06:35 PM
All i see when i read this thread is "wah wah wah."

A discussion about QB's and stats and you see "wah wah wah"?

Double Barrel
06-21-2006, 07:10 PM
Which would have put us in 26th rather than 15th. My point was not that the Texans rushing offense sucked, just that the ranking on total is deceptive as to its effectiveness.

yep, and it shows how stats can be completely misleading. Just because we finished any category higher than the Colts, it proves absolutely nothing.

IMO, the only stat that really matters is W/L, as in the Texans finished 2-14 and the Colts finished 14-2. yo, scoreboard.

TexansLucky13
06-21-2006, 07:17 PM
By whose standards? Dude is easily one of the top three QBs in the NFL right now.

He get's paid so much that the team suffers. Talk about a salary cap hit.... they might have been able to hold onto Edge if not for his thick wallet. I just think no one person is worth that much. The Colts will never take a SB win because of him. That's just my personal view of that situation, and I have met many people who see it the same way. (Other than the fact that we all hate the horseshoes)

TexanFan881
06-21-2006, 07:22 PM
He get's paid so much that the team suffers. Talk about a salary cap hit.... they might have been able to hold onto Edge if not for his thick wallet. I just think no one person is worth that much. The Colts will never take a SB win because of him.

I agree with you. Sure he's a great QB but you need to have more than one great player on your team in order to be successful. Cutting Edge like you said would have been able to be done if Manning's contract wasn't so huge. They have good recievers I'm sure if they got an average QB he would be able to play at an above average level (definately not as much as Peyton though) and they could have had a running game this year. Now they're in a hole at RB because they only have Dominick Rhodes and Joseph Addai. They have a lot of players on defense last year that performed well but was it because of the offense? They need to spend some money on that D if they want to win a Super Bowl.

Double Barrel
06-21-2006, 07:31 PM
He get's paid so much that the team suffers. Talk about a salary cap hit.... they might have been able to hold onto Edge if not for his thick wallet. I just think no one person is worth that much. The Colts will never take a SB win because of him. That's just my personal view of that situation, and I have met many people who see it the same way. (Other than the fact that we all hate the horseshoes)

I see where you're coming from now, and I can certainly understand that pov. It is definitely a valid point to be made. :ok:

But "worth" is in the eyes of the beholder, and if the Colts FO thinks he's worth it, then I guess he's worth it. However, that's a good thing for us! Anything that weakens a division rival - like Manning's salary preventing them from signing other quality players - is help we can use.

TexansLucky13
06-21-2006, 07:35 PM
Anything that weakens a division rival - like Manning's salary preventing them from signing other quality players - is help we can use.

Agreed! I won't mention anything to Dungy if you don't. :ok:

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 10:18 PM
Ok, you said nothing about any RB making the playoffs or being on a bad team, you asked me which running backs rushed for over 1000 yards for multiple seasons and I posted those. Then you try to add passing stats in. You said nothing about passing stats. Good lord, you ask for one thing, I give it to you, and then you try to turn it around to help your argument. Fact is, the Texans as a team ranked 15th in the NFL last season, so our running game as a whole wasn't that bad. And my point of all this is not to try and portray Carr "as a God", it's to show that other players like AJ on the team have underperformed in the past but the only threads you see on here are Carr threads, why is he the only one criticized like he is? Just because he is our QB?

when you click on "new Posts", you get 25 threads, with the latest posts in those threads....... only two of those have anything to do with Carr. We have ragged on everyplayer on this team, from Milford Brown, who'll be starting for Arizona, to Gaffney, who'll probably start for Philly, to Coleman, who'll probably start for Dallas.... We've got a lot of good players on our team, and we've let a bunch of good players go(sharper, glenn)...... because they all sucked........ but Carr......... poor coaching, bad Oline.......

David has not played as well as he should these last couple of years..... I'm glad that at least Kubiak can see that, and is doing something about it.

Now........ you started ragging on DD. "it's no big deal to rush for 1000 yards........ a bunch of other players are doing it."

So to clarify........ so that no one else buys the garbage you're selling. I threw out some qualifications... IT IS A BIG DEAL THAT DD RUSHED FOR 1000 YARDS HIS FIRST TWO SEASONS, AND DARN NEAR A THIRD.........

Because there aren't many guys who have done it, again, again, and again. Then, as I've pointed out, all those guys that have done it, in 2005, only one guy did it when he was on a team with a poor passing attack. ony one. & Yes, if a guy is running for 1000 yards a season, and he has no passing attack to balance the running game, he IS a badass.


& yes........ you act as if David has done no wrong.

thunderkyss
06-21-2006, 10:36 PM
He get's paid so much that the team suffers. Talk about a salary cap hit.... they might have been able to hold onto Edge if not for his thick wallet. I just think no one person is worth that much. The Colts will never take a SB win because of him. That's just my personal view of that situation, and I have met many people who see it the same way. (Other than the fact that we all hate the horseshoes)

Interesting....... let's see what happens when they finally do loose Reggie Wayne, and Edgerin James..... I seriously doubt they'll miss a beat..... don't forget this is a team that cut Marshall Faulk...... the best blah blah blah in the last 10 years........... other than Reggie Bush.

QBs like Manning make Reggie Waynes, and Edgerin James'.....

& there isn't a QB in the league who manages an offense the way Manning does....... he is the offensive co-ordinator. & that is why they'll never win the big one.......

During the regular season, Manning should be allowed to do what he does..... but come play-off time, Manning needs to be the QB, and Dungy should be the coach.

TexansLucky13
06-21-2006, 10:43 PM
During the regular season, Manning should be allowed to do what he does..... but come play-off time, Manning needs to be the QB, and Dungy should be the coach.

I understand your point of view in this case, but I don't agree 100% with that last statement. I think they rely on him too much, and that is why they fail. Dungy is an intelligent man, and should be the leader of the horseshoes from the first game to their final playoff match.

I agree that Manning had a lot to do with the talent that Edge has. But I don't believe that that makes any excuses. If Peyton keeps creating playmakers and letting them get cut... how backwards is that?

GP
06-21-2006, 10:49 PM
when you click on "new Posts", you get 25 threads, with the latest posts in those threads....... only two of those have anything to do with Carr. We have ragged on everyplayer on this team, from Milford Brown, who'll be starting for Arizona, to Gaffney, who'll probably start for Philly, to Coleman, who'll probably start for Dallas.... We've got a lot of good players on our team, and we've let a bunch of good players go(sharper, glenn)...... because they all sucked........ but Carr......... poor coaching, bad Oline.......

David has not played as well as he should these last couple of years..... I'm glad that at least Kubiak can see that, and is doing something about it.

Now........ you started ragging on DD. "it's no big deal to rush for 1000 yards........ a bunch of other players are doing it."

So to clarify........ so that no one else buys the garbage you're selling. I threw out some qualifications...IT IS A BIG DEAL THAT DD RUSHED FOR 1000 YARDS HIS FIRST TWO SEASONS, AND DARN NEAR A THIRD.........

Because there aren't many guys who have done it, again, again, and again. Then, as I've pointed out, all those guys that have done it, in 2005, only one guy did it when he was on a team with a poor passing attack. ony one. & Yes, if a guy is running for 1000 yards a season, and he has no passing attack to balance the running game, he IS a badass.


& yes........ you act as if David has done no wrong.


You state (above) that "...David has not played as well as he should these last couple of years..... I'm glad that at least Kubiak can see that, and is doing something about it..."

WE ALL SEE THAT CARR DID NOT PLAY WELL.

In fact, Carr saw that Carr did not play well. he saw it from his back as he got sacked every other pass play, laying there on the turf looking up at the jumbotron replay system.

Congratulations, Thunderkyss...you are quick enough to see that Carr did not play well. Now, move on to accepting the idea and concept that Kubiak feels pretty certain that Carr had his talent squandered. It's time to stop the bashing, and just move on. And that means not just supporting Kubiak, as it seems you are doing, but it also means supporting the guy who Kubiak supports.

But for you to sit there and just rub his face in it, over and over and over and over and over, is just beyond me. I'm not saying he played great, but I AM saying that he has the confidence of Kubiak who could have verrrry easily signed off on Carr's death certificate if he wanted to. No, it became verrrry clear to the powers-that-be that the problem was in the coaching style and the subsequent playcalling that completely squandered our QBs talent.

Yes, Carr himself did not play as well as he should have. But that's not completely a true reflection of the star quality and potential that's there.

So I'll toss this out at you: Do you or do you not support our QB, and are you in any way whatsoever holding a secret desire to see him fail?

Just answer that question, and let's stop going around this Carr mountain so we can invent another player on our team to drub for 100 or more posts, OK?

Hulk75
06-21-2006, 10:55 PM
I tend to judge a guy with my eyeballs...not some stat line. He hasn't played well no matter how you slice it if you just honestly watch the games. Stats are for baseball.
I have seen you drop some crazy stats on here, that I never heard about.:spy: :)

texan279
06-21-2006, 11:48 PM
I have seen you drop some crazy stats on here, that I never heard about.:spy: :)

Yeah, something like Carr never throwing for more than 200 yards and 2 TD's in a win is the one I remember...:)

TexansLucky13
06-22-2006, 12:15 AM
WE ALL SEE THAT CARR DID NOT PLAY WELL.

Please do not include "me" in that "we". Refer to my longest post in this section please.

texan279
06-22-2006, 12:28 AM
Now........ you started ragging on DD. "it's no big deal to rush for 1000 yards........ a bunch of other players are doing it."

So to clarify........ so that no one else buys the garbage you're selling. I threw out some qualifications... IT IS A BIG DEAL THAT DD RUSHED FOR 1000 YARDS HIS FIRST TWO SEASONS, AND DARN NEAR A THIRD.........

Because there aren't many guys who have done it, again, again, and again. Then, as I've pointed out, all those guys that have done it, in 2005, only one guy did it when he was on a team with a poor passing attack. ony one. & Yes, if a guy is running for 1000 yards a season, and he has no passing attack to balance the running game, he IS a badass.


& yes........ you act as if David has done no wrong.

I did not rag on DD, I just said he was a good, not great back. You ask me to name the RB's who have rushed for more than 1000 yards more than once, so I do that for the last 2 seasons, then you come back with this "well look how many were on teams with bad passing games, only DD and so and so" then you go on about guys who were on teams that went to the playoffs.

Shaun Alexander - 1 season over 1100 yards, 2 seasons over 1300 yards, 3 seasons over 1400 yards rushing

Tiki Barber - 3 seasons over 1000 yards, 2 seasons over 1500 yards rushing

Clinton Portis - 1 season over 1300 yards, 3 seasons over 1500 yards rushing

Edge James - 1 season over 1200 yards, 3 seasons over 1500 yarsd, 1 season over 1700 yards rushing

LaDanian Tomlinson - 3 seasons over 1200 yards, 2 seasons over 1600 yards rushing

Warrick Dunn - 3 seasons over 1000 yards rushing, 1 season over 1400 yards rushing

Willis McGahee - 2 seasons over 1100 yards rushing

Rueben Droughns - 2 seasons over 1200 yards rushing

Jamal Lewis - 1 season over 1000 yards, 2 seasons over 1300 yards, one season over 2000 yards rushing

Fred Taylor - 4 seasons over 1200 yards, 1 season over 1500 yards rushing

Mike Anderson - 2 seasons over 1000 yards rushing

Curtis Martin - 10 consecutive seasons with over 1000 yards rushing

Priest Holmes - 1 seasons over 1000 yards, 3 seasons over 1400 yards rushing

Ahman Green - 5 straight seasons with over 1100 yards rushing

Stephen Davis - 4 seasons over 1300 yards rushing

Deuce McAllister - 3 seasons over 1000 yards rushing

Marshall Faulk - 7 seasons over 1000 yards rushing

DD - 1 season over 1000 yards, 1 season over 1100 yards

Out of the RB's I listed, 13 of them have rushed for over 1000 yards more than 4 times. And FYI, the season that Jamal Lewis rushed for over 2000 yards, Baltimore had the WORST passing offense in the NFL and when Curtis Martin rushed for over 1600 yards in 2004, the Jets passing offense was ranked 27th in the NFL, so there goes that no passing attack theory out the window. And no, I do not act as if Carr "has done no wrong", I just do not understand all of the posts and criticism about Carr only around here when there are other players on the team making big bucks and underperforming. And if you think I am ragging on DD, sorry, I'm not, he's a good running back, not a great running back.

TexansLucky13
06-22-2006, 12:34 AM
And FYI, the season that Jamal Lewis rushed for over 2000 yards, Baltimore had the WORST passing offense in the NFL and when Curtis Martin rushed for over 1600 yards in 2004, the Jets passing offense was ranked 27th in the NFL, so there goes that no passing attack theory out the window.

I was waiting for someone to mention that. I understand that having the option to pass makes the defense more honest, but still.... if you can't pass.... you run. I do agree with thunderkyss, though, that DD has done some awesome stuff.

So, thank you texan279 for the informative stats. I can understand how a guy like Lewis can rack up so many yards when you think about their passing game (or lack thereof).

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 08:44 AM
WE ALL SEE THAT CARR DID NOT PLAY WELL.

In fact, Carr saw that Carr did not play well. he saw it from his back as he got sacked every other pass play, laying there on the turf looking up at the jumbotron replay system.

Congratulations, Thunderkyss...you are quick enough to see that Carr did not play well. Now, move on to accepting the idea and concept that Kubiak feels pretty certain that Carr had his talent squandered. It's time to stop the bashing, and just move on. And that means not just supporting Kubiak, as it seems you are doing, but it also means supporting the guy who Kubiak supports.


I actually don't know what we've been arguing for the last 6 pages.....

I'm saying Carr played badly....... and it seems my other opponents are saying "yeah he played badly, but he'll get better next year"

Which he very well might...... I've gone on record in the past, saying that it is just as likely that we'll be looking for a franchise quarterback in two years. Who knows..... we'll have to wait and see.

As for me, and who I support....... I honestly believe this team can go 13-3... and that's what I'm rooting for.


Out of the RB's I listed, 13 of them have rushed for over 1000 yards more than 4 times. And FYI, the season that Jamal Lewis rushed for over 2000 yards, Baltimore had the WORST passing offense in the NFL and when Curtis Martin rushed for over 1600 yards in 2004, the Jets passing offense was ranked 27th in the NFL, so there goes that no passing attack theory out the window. And no, I do not act as if Carr "has done no wrong", I just do not understand all of the posts and criticism about Carr only around here when there are other players on the team making big bucks and underperforming. And if you think I am ragging on DD, sorry, I'm not, he's a good running back, not a great running back.

out of the RBs you mentioned, which ones are good, but not great??

You're prooving my point for me.... Jamal Lewis is a great back..... To prove that I am wrong, and that it's no big deal to rush for 1000 yards, you have to start naming scrubbs who are rushing for 1000 yards.... & you've got to admit a guy with a 4000 yard passing offense has a bit of an advantage to a guy with a 2600 yard passing offense.

Curtis Martin will be in the Hall of Fame, Jamal's 2000 yard season will be talked about forever...

I don't see your point.

Runner
06-22-2006, 09:11 AM
So I'll toss this out at you: Do you or do you not support our QB, and are you in any way whatsoever holding a secret desire to see him fail?



The following comment is more general than just this thread. No offense intended to recent posters on this thread.

I've noticed that there are quite a few players - beyond Carr - on the team that have their own base of anti-fans. I think that many of these fans also harbor a desire to see their own particular whipping boy fail. I guess that is human nature. Some have made up their minds about certain players and refuse to change it based on new information no matter what. I saw one person state something like "I'll always think player x is a bust no matter what. I don't care what he does from here on out". This about a player who has played 20-30 plays in his short career.

As I've said before, apparently it is easier to take new information and spin it to fit a certain viewpoint than it is to think about what is going on as things change (like coaching) and perhaps go so far as admit an error in evaluating a player.

If I was wrong sticks in a persons throat, I suggest they try mea culpa to hide the meaning a little. I'll start:

The new coaches apparently think McKinney can contribute as a starting guard. I could never get past his performance at center in recent years. It looks like these coaches will build a better o-line with pieces we already have that I didn't think were very good. Mea culpa.

texan279
06-22-2006, 09:11 AM
I actually don't know what we've been arguing for the last 6 pages.....

I'm saying Carr played badly....... and it seems my other opponents are saying "yeah he played badly, but he'll get better next year"

Which he very well might...... I've gone on record in the past, saying that it is just as likely that we'll be looking for a franchise quarterback in two years. Who knows..... we'll have to wait and see.

As for me, and who I support....... I honestly believe this team can go 13-3... and that's what I'm rooting for.



out of the RBs you mentioned, which ones are good, but not great??

You're prooving my point for me.... Jamal Lewis is a great back..... To prove that I am wrong, and that it's no big deal to rush for 1000 yards, you have to start naming scrubbs who are rushing for 1000 yards.... & you've got to admit a guy with a 4000 yard passing offense has a bit of an advantage to a guy with a 2600 yard passing offense.

Curtis Martin will be in the Hall of Fame, Jamal's 2000 yard season will be talked about forever...

I don't see your point.

Point is, I just named 18 RB's in the NFL who have rushed for more than 1000 yards more than once. Out of those 18, I consider DD, McGahee, Drouhgns, Taylor, and Anderson, good backs not great backs.

TEXANRED
06-22-2006, 09:14 AM
QBs like Manning make Reggie Waynes, and Edgerin James'.....



Yes, but it is receivers like Harrison that make QB's like Manning. Notice Marvin is always open? Its not b/c the other D isn't trying.

See what you have started!

Thats it! I am going to go and start my own David Carr thread!:francis: :)

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 09:27 AM
The following comment is more general than just this thread. No offense intended to recent posters on this thread.

I've noticed that there are quite a few players - beyond Carr - on the team that have their own base of anti-fans. I think that many of these fans also harbor a desire to see their own particular whipping boy fail. I guess that is human nature. Some have made up their minds about certain players and refuse to change it based on new information no matter what. I saw one person state something like "I'll always think player x is a bust no matter what. I don't care what he does from here on out". This about a player who has played 20-30 plays in his short career.

As I've said before, apparently it is easier to take new information and spin it to fit a certain viewpoint than it is to think about what is going on as things change (like coaching) and perhaps go so far as admit an error in evaluating a player.

If I was wrong sticks in a persons throat, I suggest they try mea culpa to hide the meaning a little. I'll start:

The new coaches apparently think McKinney can contribute as a starting guard. I could never get past his performance at center in recent years. It looks like these coaches will build a better o-line with pieces we already have that I didn't think were very good. Mea culpa.

I'd like to nominate this post for "Post of the Off-Season."

That's exactly what is behind a lot of this spinning--folks taking often but not always overstated positions in the 1st place not owning up to the fact they may be wrong or a player has improved.

GP
06-22-2006, 09:40 AM
Please do not include "me" in that "we". Refer to my longest post in this section please.

I guess my philosophy on this topic is that no single player on our team played "well" in a 2-14 season. It was a complete meltdown of epic proportions.

Carr did NOT play well, but he was joined by about 50 other players around him who also did not play well. And the root cause, IMO, was coaching. Seasons prior to 2005 saw "good" play from most all Texans players, and the record reflects it. But I would say, with the exception of a few minor bursts of excitement via Jerome Mathis, that nobody played well at all.

In that sense, my friend, we all need to be honest enough to admit it.

And thus my entire point in this is that all of it is in the past. We got the flu shot and it hurt...but now we have a much better chance against the flu than I think we've ever had. Just the idea of not seeing Bradford and Gaffney atop the WR depth chart, or on the chart at all, is enough to get me excited. good luck to 'em, but I think they stayed on our team at least one season too long. And that was the kind of homerish, "he's my guy" type of decision making that Capers and crew constantly tripped over. There was ZERO competition for depth chart battles. Everybody was basically unionized.

But............some people obviously want to lump in the franchise QB with the dearly departed coaching staff. And that's where I just scratch my head in utter confusion. Yes, he did not play "well," but again I say: The entire team did not play well...heck, the 2004 season-ending debacle at home against Cleveland SHOULD have been the tipping point for Bob McNair, but he gave the coaching staff one more year to prove that it was just a fluke.

Admitting that Carr did not play well in 2005 is not admitting that he "can't" play. He was just as much a victim of circumstance as the other players on our team were. He's gonna' do better this year: Bank on it.

texan279
06-22-2006, 09:42 AM
I guess my philosophy on this topic is that no single player on our team played "well" in a 2-14 season. It was a complete meltdown of epic proportions.

Carr did NOT play well, but he was joined by about 50 other players around him who also did not play well. And the root cause, IMO, was coaching. Seasons prior to 2005 saw "good" play from most all Texans players, and the record reflects it. But I would say, with the exception of a few minor bursts of excitement via Jerome Mathis, that nobody played well at all.

In that sense, my friend, we all need to be honest enough to admit it.

And thus my entire point in this is that all of it is in the past. We got the flu shot and it hurt...but now we have a much better chance against the flu than I think we've ever had. Just the idea of not seeing Bradford and Gaffney atop the WR depth chart, or on the chart at all, is enough to get me excited. good luck to 'em, but I think they stayed on our team at least one season too long. And that was the kind of homerish, "he's my guy" type of decision making that Capers and crew constantly tripped over. There was ZERO competition for depth chart battles. Everybody was basically unionized.

But............some people obviously want to lump in the franchise QB with the dearly departed coaching staff. And that's where I just scratch my head in utter confusion. Yes, he did not play "well," but again I say: The entire team did not play well...heck, the 2004 season-ending debacle at home against Cleveland SHOULD have been the tipping point for Bob McNair, but he gave the coaching staff one more year to prove that it was just a fluke.

Admitting that Carr did not play well in 2005 is not admitting that he "can't" play. He was just as much a victim of circumstance as the other players on our team were. He's gonna' do better this year: Bank on it.

Post of the year right here, great post.

GP
06-22-2006, 09:47 AM
The following comment is more general than just this thread. No offense intended to recent posters on this thread.

I've noticed that there are quite a few players - beyond Carr - on the team that have their own base of anti-fans. I think that many of these fans also harbor a desire to see their own particular whipping boy fail. I guess that is human nature. Some have made up their minds about certain players and refuse to change it based on new information no matter what. I saw one person state something like "I'll always think player x is a bust no matter what. I don't care what he does from here on out". This about a player who has played 20-30 plays in his short career.

As I've said before, apparently it is easier to take new information and spin it to fit a certain viewpoint than it is to think about what is going on as things change (like coaching) and perhaps go so far as admit an error in evaluating a player.

If I was wrong sticks in a persons throat, I suggest they try mea culpa to hide the meaning a little. I'll start:

The new coaches apparently think McKinney can contribute as a starting guard. I could never get past his performance at center in recent years. It looks like these coaches will build a better o-line with pieces we already have that I didn't think were very good. Mea culpa.

And that's exactly what I am trying to say.

I want my team (the Texans) to succeed. Even if I dislike a certain player on our team, I ain't gonna' hold such a big grudge against him that I wish him to fail...and then I take delight in his calamity...it just goes against the very grain of what we're trying to do: WIN.

But as I read these anti-Carr posts, I kinda' get a little sick at my stomach because some people seem to realllllllly (honestly and truly) harbor a secret desire to see the guy flop. To prove THEIR point? That's what it appears to be.

If it were not, then we wouldn't see such an overtly driven set of posts on this topic that continue to "support" Kubiak in his decision to keep Carr, while at the same time saying that Carr was/is a mistake.

Anyway. I don't like to paint with a broad brush. We all hate to be accused of something. But this is getting a little silly in terms of what people are saying about the franchise QB. At least WAIT until he really flops, then some of you can have your bonfire. I won't be coming to it, by the way (if it happens).

TEXANRED
06-22-2006, 09:49 AM
not owning up to the fact they may be wrong or a player has improved.

Well I am usually wrong. I thought Babin and Pbuc would be studs, I thought our O-line just needed time to gel, I thought no other line-backer in the world could be worse than Forman, I thought losing Foley was a whopedy-do, I thought Glenn was old and had lost a step, I thought Coleman was going to be a stud safety, I thought Capers would get us to a superbowl, I thought casserly could build a championship football team, I thought we would get the next superbowl, I thought there was no way in the world we would lose to Detroit and san diego, I thought we would take Reggie Bush.

I am wrong alot.

real
06-22-2006, 09:49 AM
So I'll toss this out at you: Do you or do you not support our QB, and are you in any way whatsoever holding a secret desire to see him fail?


I don't think everyone who has skepticism about Carr wants to see him fail...I'm one who is on the Carr watch, but by no means do I want to see the guy fail...Just because if he does bad, that probably means the team does bad...We are Texan Fans...Carr is a Texans player who happened to be the first player drafted by us, which happened to be the number one pick...HE has not played up to an acceptable level thus far...PERIOD...It doesn't matter what the reasons for his sub-par performance are, because thats water under the bridge...And Carr isn't the only player that hasn't performed, and he isn't the only player who's head will be called for if he continues not to perform...Carr is just under more scrutiny because he is the QB...our first pick...Can you really blame the fans for expecting, and wanting more out of him...We have a right to call out Carr...What are we supposed to do? He is a grown man...football is his job...he hasn't performed well....Now if That statement held true for anyone of us at our jobs we'd hear grumblings as well...He is not a kid...He deserves all the criticism he has recieved...just like anyother Texan player that under performs...

texan279
06-22-2006, 09:52 AM
We have a right to call out Carr...What are we supposed to do? He is a grown man...football is his job...he hasn't performed well....Now if That statement held true for anyone of us at our jobs we'd hear grumblings as well...He is not a kid...He deserves all the criticism he has recieved...just like anyother Texan player that under performs...

Then why hasn't Andre Johnson ever been called out on here? I have said things about problems with his performance in the past and it goes ignored, but every day I get on here there is a new thread having to do something with Carr.

real
06-22-2006, 09:58 AM
Then why hasn't Andre Johnson ever been called out on here? I have said things about problems with his performance in the past and it goes ignored, but every day I get on here there is a new thread having to do something with Carr.

I have called out Andre...And I haven't started any Negative threads about Carr or any other players...

texan279
06-22-2006, 09:59 AM
I have called out Andre...And I haven't started any Negative threads about Carr or any other players...

I wasn't talking about you, but the board as a whole.

edo783
06-22-2006, 10:00 AM
Then why hasn't Andre Johnson ever been called out on here? I have said things about problems with his performance in the past and it goes ignored, but every day I get on here there is a new thread having to do something with Carr.

Because he wouldn't have been replaced by VY if we had drafted him. Check most of the negative Carr posters and most of them are former VY rabid supportes and they, in their heart of hearts, want Carr to fail so that they can say "See, he's a piece of dog do and we should have drafted VY". That IMO, is what is really behind most of the negative Carr posts. There are some folks who have for a long time brought up issues with Carr, my self included, but the ones who constantly rag on him can almost to a person be traced back to VY supporters.

real
06-22-2006, 10:04 AM
I wasn't talking about you, but the board as a whole.

Well like i said above...Carr is the QB...The assumed leader...The franchises
1st pick...A number one pick...Why wouldn't he be under more scrutiny ? Thats like putting Carr and Owen Daniels on the same level....If Daniels doesn't perform well it won't be nearly as big of a blow if Carr doesn't perform well...Thats why Carr is getting called out more...:fireball:

wicked_wayz
06-22-2006, 10:06 AM
Because he wouldn't have been replaced by VY if we had drafted him. Check most of the negative Carr posters and most of them are former VY rabid supportes and they, in their heart of hearts, want Carr to fail so that they can say "See, he's a piece of dog do and we should have drafted VY". That IMO, is what is really behind most of the negative Carr posts. There are some folks who have for a long time brought up issues with Carr, my self included, but the ones who constantly rag on him can almost to a person be traced back to VY supporters.

I HAVE ALWAYS IMAGINE WHAT IT BE LIKE IF CARR PLAYED WITH ANOTHER TEAM...I ALWAYS THOUGHT HE'D DO BETTER

real
06-22-2006, 10:10 AM
Because he wouldn't have been replaced by VY if we had drafted him. Check most of the negative Carr posters and most of them are former VY rabid supportes and they, in their heart of hearts, want Carr to fail so that they can say "See, he's a piece of dog do and we should have drafted VY". That IMO, is what is really behind most of the negative Carr posts. There are some folks who have for a long time brought up issues with Carr, my self included, but the ones who constantly rag on him can almost to a person be traced back to VY supporters.

I think thats an overstatement....Honestly at 1st I wanted VY, But after the fact I am still excited about the Mario Pick-up, and I realize it was probably the best thing for our team....and just like you all have said that some people just never liked him and never will....the same could be said about these blind loyalist homers...You always liked him, and always will...No matter how bad he stinks....Well you all have posed Questions...now its my turn....When will enough be enough...do you all have a point at which Carr must perform...or will he continue to get excuses...All Im saying is that he needs to perform, because if he doesn't then he needs to be gone...

Texans_Chick
06-22-2006, 10:15 AM
The following comment is more general than just this thread. No offense intended to recent posters on this thread.

I've noticed that there are quite a few players - beyond Carr - on the team that have their own base of anti-fans. I think that many of these fans also harbor a desire to see their own particular whipping boy fail. I guess that is human nature. Some have made up their minds about certain players and refuse to change it based on new information no matter what. I saw one person state something like "I'll always think player x is a bust no matter what. I don't care what he does from here on out". This about a player who has played 20-30 plays in his short career.

As I've said before, apparently it is easier to take new information and spin it to fit a certain viewpoint than it is to think about what is going on as things change (like coaching) and perhaps go so far as admit an error in evaluating a player.

If I was wrong sticks in a persons throat, I suggest they try mea culpa to hide the meaning a little. I'll start:

The new coaches apparently think McKinney can contribute as a starting guard. I could never get past his performance at center in recent years. It looks like these coaches will build a better o-line with pieces we already have that I didn't think were very good. Mea culpa.


Worth repeating again. Nice.

Basically, the short answer is that a lot of the posts on the MB right now are a reflection of boredom in the offseason and lack of information about what the Texans are going to do.

I feel that any of our preconceived notions of what the Texans are and are not need to be done blowned up. We have to wait until the season. And waiting sucks.

TwinSisters
06-22-2006, 10:16 AM
Then why hasn't Andre Johnson ever been called out on here? I have said things about problems with his performance in the past and it goes ignored, but every day I get on here there is a new thread having to do something with Carr.

You know I have been thinking about it. But Andre got his Pro Bowl and is the only Texan that can threaten to crack a top 50 list of the best players in the NFL. He does this with the same play calling, line, and QB.

Carr has a hard time cracking the top 15 out of 32+ plus starters.

I couldn't find the salary information though for the past couple of years. Thank you NFL for being *********** **** ****** ***** *****. Like the salary information is TOP SECRET and we have to guard it against terrorist Soccer fans from Trinidad or something. I am not talking about just Andre, but all of the WRs.

I figure in the end it would just turn into another Montana-Rice Paradox.
---

I would ask myself this: If I traded either one... who would get me the higher draft pick in return? I am not so sure I could get a 1st round pick for Carr, but I feel like I could for Andre.

texan279
06-22-2006, 10:21 AM
Well like i said above...Carr is the QB...The assumed leader...The franchises
1st pick...A number one pick...Why wouldn't he be under more scrutiny ? Thats like putting Carr and Owen Daniels on the same level....If Daniels doesn't perform well it won't be nearly as big of a blow if Carr doesn't perform well...Thats why Carr is getting called out more...:fireball:

AJ was the #3 overall pick in 2003. Bradford was dogged on the boards while he was here, as well as Coleman and others, they weren't all #1 picks. IMO it doesn't matter if you are a #1 overall pick or the last pick in the draft, every player deserves to be criticized or talked about, that's our right as a fan. And no, I am not saying Carr has performed great, or even good, and I have talked bad about him in the past and think he has things to work on, it just seems like nothing but Carr bashing goes on around here when in fact the whole team should be getting ragged on for their performance last season, not just Carr because he is our QB or was a #1 pick, everyone deserves some criticism.

texan279
06-22-2006, 10:25 AM
You know I have been thinking about it. But Andre got his Pro Bowl and is the only Texan that can threaten to crack a top 50 list of the best players in the NFL. He does this with the same play calling, line, and QB.

Carr has a hard time cracking the top 15 out of 32+ plus starters.

I couldn't find the salary information though for the past couple of years. Thank you NFL for being *********** **** ****** ***** *****. Like the salary information is TOP SECRET and we have to guard it against terrorist Soccer fans from Trinidad or something. I am not talking about just Andre, but all of the WRs.

I figure in the end it would just turn into another Montana-Rice Paradox.
---

I would ask myself this: If I traded either one... who would get me the higher draft pick in return? I am not so sure I could get a 1st round pick for Carr, but I feel like I could for Andre.

One pro bowl hardly gives any player an excuse to slide when he doesn't perform...And AJ is scheduled to make about 100,000 more than Carr this season if that is what you were looking for. And by the way, the season AJ made the pro bowl, AJ was ranked 17th in the NFL in receiving yards and didn't even crack the top 30 in receiving TD's, that same season Carr was ranked 12th in the NFL in passing yards and 16th in the NFL for passer rating.

TwinSisters
06-22-2006, 10:40 AM
One pro bowl hardly gives any player an excuse to slide when he doesn't perform...And AJ is scheduled to make about 100,000 more than Carr this season if that is what you were looking for.

Yes I agree. But you don't really pay marquee guys on a season for season basis. That's partially why there was some trouble in Tennesse with McNair. They would slide contract money around and when came time to pay up for the shifts, they balked. So Steve took off. ( same type of deal with Manning, as far as shifting pay around )

What I wanted to find was the salary ( the cap hits mostly ) for all of the other starting WRs in the league and then compare that with Andre Johnson. ( to see what the market value for WRs are for a given year and so forth )

Then look at how much he impacts the cap compared with Carr and other QBs.

I don't agree with the notion that just because we have one over paid guy that it should detract from looking at another over paid guy. It's not logically sound. That's like having one numbnut working for you that is slacking off and trying to defend his slacktitude with the rest of the bums on his shift. It doesn't change what is going on with that particular individual.
---

Although I do have to say the cap is not the only thing you can look at with Andre, so maybe I it will be cool to look at some other things about him.

real
06-22-2006, 10:58 AM
AJ was the #3 overall pick in 2003. Bradford was dogged on the boards while he was here, as well as Coleman and others, they weren't all #1 picks. IMO it doesn't matter if you are a #1 overall pick or the last pick in the draft, every player deserves to be criticized or talked about, that's our right as a fan. And no, I am not saying Carr has performed great, or even good, and I have talked bad about him in the past and think he has things to work on, it just seems like nothing but Carr bashing goes on around here when in fact the whole team should be getting ragged on for their performance last season, not just Carr because he is our QB or was a #1 pick, everyone deserves some criticism.

You stated we as fans have a right to comment on anyplayer...Even Carr???...You aren't even disagreeing with what I'm saying...You are just saying it differently...You just restated my point...The only thing we disagree on is why Carr is getting more of the scrutiny....You say there isn't much difference between the #1 pick and #3....:pigfly: ....I say there is...I can probably remember the last 10 or so 1st picks of the draft....Id be hard pressed to tell you the last ten 2nd let alone third picks of the draft...And like it or not he is the QB, therefore the assumed leader....You even named a couple of other players that have been criticized so it's not like others haven't been pointed out...but my whole point is people are asking why so much attention on Carr??!!!....Well I just gave you the reason that I think ...He has basically been the face of the franchise since Day one...Now you may think that means nothing and he should be under the same watchful eye as everyone else....The world doesn't work like that...The one who is in the lime light will take the blame and they will also get the glory....Here is another question....Why do you stand up for Carr?? Do you stand up for every Texan Player that hasn't performed just as much as you do for Carr???

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 11:12 AM
I've gone on record in the past, saying that it is just as likely that we'll be looking for a franchise quarterback in two years. Who knows..... we'll have to wait and see.

As for me, and who I support....... I honestly believe this team can go 13-3... and that's what I'm rooting for.

Those two thoughts/positions are incompatible. No way this team goes 13-3 and then gets rid of Carr. If Carr is on a path to leaving, the team is under .500.

texan279
06-22-2006, 11:21 AM
You stated we as fans have a right to comment on anyplayer...Even Carr???...You aren't even disagreeing with what I'm saying...You are just saying it differently...You just restated my point...The only thing we disagree on is why Carr is getting more of the scrutiny....You say there isn't much difference between the #1 pick and #3....:pigfly: ....I say there is...I can probably remember the last 10 or so 1st picks of the draft....Id be hard pressed to tell you the last ten 2nd let alone third picks of the draft...And like it or not he is the QB, therefore the assumed leader....You even named a couple of other players that have been criticized so it's not like others haven't been pointed out...but my whole point is people are asking why so much attention on Carr??!!!....Well I just gave you the reason that I think ...He has basically been the face of the franchise since Day one...Now you may think that means nothing and he should be under the same watchful eye as everyone else....The world doesn't work like that...The one who is in the lime light will take the blame and they will also get the glory....Here is another question....Why do you stand up for Carr?? Do you stand up for every Texan Player that hasn't performed just as much as you do for Carr???

The only reason I stand up for Carr is because he is the only player on here that people hate on and knit pick about. I don't understand why Carr is the only one talked bad about on here. And by the way, I have also defended Babin, TJ, Buchanon, and other players on here as well.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 11:38 AM
Well I am usually wrong. I thought Babin and Pbuc would be studs, I thought our O-line just needed time to gel,

See...... I don't think I'm bashing Carr...... I'm saying he needs to play better.... duh..... I'm not saying the other 50 or so players don't need to get better.... I'm not saying we were 2-14 because of Carr.......

But I don't understand why we can't say Carr needs to play better, without generating a 6 page tome of, "You should support Kubiak and his QB" posts..

But we can say Bain & Pbuc were wastes of picks.....

I like Babin, & I think PBuc should get this season to prove he was worth the cost.

I think Carr has a strong arm...... I think Carr has a lot of talent...... I think Carr needs to learn what it takes to be a starting NFL QB, and I think it's pitiful that he is basically a redshirt 5 year veteran.

& that's not bashing, because that is what he is.

From day one, Gary Kubiak has been saying the same things... not in these exact words.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 11:38 AM
& it is true, that I was a Vince Young supporter. But more than anything, I was & is a Reggie Bush hater..... if we are going to use the first pick, let's use it on something we need...... Let's take BPA, at a position we need...... in my mind, it's not the same, as drafting for need....

In my mind, Vince, Reggie, & Mario all could be considered BPA.... we don't need a running back with Kubiak coming over with his patented running SYSTEM. DD has proven (IMHO) to be a better running back than Carr has proven to be at QB....... this is why no one picks on AJ...... he is a better WR, than Carr is QB..... so I've got Vince Rated over Reggie.... but we need a pass rush more than we need a QB.......

Personally, I would've traded down to get him, but I believe in my heart of hearts that N.O. would have took him. & it was a better move, to take Mario @ #1, than to get try to get Vince @ 4, because we would have lost on both counts.

But, I'd have been happy, regardless who we took as long as it wasn't Reggie Bush.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 11:42 AM
Those two thoughts/positions are incompatible. No way this team goes 13-3 and then gets rid of Carr. If Carr is on a path to leaving, the team is under .500.


that is correct...... I'm hoping we go 13-3......

I am not hoping that we get rid of Carr.

TK_Gamer
06-22-2006, 12:44 PM
Because he wouldn't have been replaced by VY if we had drafted him. Check most of the negative Carr posters and most of them are former VY rabid supportes and they, in their heart of hearts, want Carr to fail so that they can say "See, he's a piece of dog do and we should have drafted VY". That IMO, is what is really behind most of the negative Carr posts. There are some folks who have for a long time brought up issues with Carr, my self included, but the ones who constantly rag on him can almost to a person be traced back to VY supporters.

I agree
what are they gonna say when they find out their golden boy VY isnt ready for the nfl yet and in my oppinion wont be ready for 2 years minimum. skill wise or maturity wise. do you people not watch college football? do you really think that shotgun option, sidearm delivery is gonna fly in the nfl? why do you think VY dropped so far in the draft? I honestly see Lienart being a starter and productive way before VY. then where would we be? Mario and Carr and DD look pretty darn smart to me.

fan no matter what
06-22-2006, 12:50 PM
I agree totaly i have been saying that since the beginning.:brickwall

real
06-22-2006, 01:05 PM
what are they gonna say when they find out their golden boy VY isnt ready for the nfl yet and in my oppinion wont be ready for 2 years minimum. skill wise or maturity wise. do you people not watch college football? do you really think that shotgun option, sidearm delivery is gonna fly in the nfl? why do you think VY dropped so far in the draft? I honestly see Lienart being a starter and productive way before VY. then where would we be? Mario and Carr and DD look pretty darn smart to me.

V.Young went third...I don't think that is dropping , but hey......And I too see leinhart being a starter and more productive sooner...But not because he is more talented.....because he is surrounded by better talent offensively, and in college he was in more of an NFL style offense.....VY does have issues he needs to work on, but how can people be so down on a guy who was the best QB in college last yr., and won the N'tl title???...It baffles me...Every player that was in college has some things to work on, not just VY....

real
06-22-2006, 01:08 PM
I agree totaly i have been saying that since the beginning.:brickwall

The beggining of what??...April.....You only have had 17 post prior to ^^that one...you couldn't have said too much...

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 01:14 PM
I agree
what are they gonna say when they find out their golden boy VY isnt ready for the nfl yet and in my oppinion wont be ready for 2 years minimum. skill wise or maturity wise. do you people not watch college football? do you really think that shotgun option, sidearm delivery is gonna fly in the nfl? why do you think VY dropped so far in the draft? I honestly see Lienart being a starter and productive way before VY. then where would we be? Mario and Carr and DD look pretty darn smart to me.


we're going on 5 years now...... maybe our QB is ready.......

I also see Vince starting and being more productive than Matt a lot sooner. Matt gets no playing time, if the Cardinals are winning. & that team is built to win. So if he doesn't beat out Warner in the Preseason, it may be next year before he straps on his helmet.

Tennessee aren't expect a winning season in '06....... they've got nothing to lose. If Vince can prove that he's ready...... which all reports indicate that he is doing...... he might start early in '06.

TEXANRED
06-22-2006, 01:16 PM
The beggining of what??...April.....You only have had 17 post prior to ^^that one...you couldn't have said too much...
That doesn't mean he doesn't watch football or have friends and co-workers to talk to. Just means he just recently joined.

I read these boards for three years before I finally joined. I just didn't want to post. Now I can't stop. I even get on at my friends houses to post.

Its a sickness. Who needs my space when you have the Texan MB?

real
06-22-2006, 01:29 PM
That doesn't mean he doesn't watch football or have friends and co-workers to talk to. Just means he just recently joined.

I read these boards for three years before I finally joined. I just didn't want to post. Now I can't stop. I even get on at my friends houses to post.

Its a sickness. Who needs my space when you have the Texan MB?

I was joking with the guy...:whip:

fan no matter what
06-22-2006, 01:40 PM
i have not been posting very long you are right. but i have been a texans fan since the beginning. :twocents:

i dont have any problems with vy but i think david carr hasnt had a chance and with the coaching staff and upgrades to the line he should have a much improved year. of course that doesnt come without it actually happening and we will all be a little wiser this time next year.:redtowel:

TexansLucky13
06-22-2006, 02:20 PM
This is off-topic (which is a good thing considering this is a model Carr thread).... but xtruroyaltyx I can't stop watching Earl Campbell plow through defenders on your avatar! I love that clip and I wish we had him on our roster!

TEXANRED
06-22-2006, 02:25 PM
I was joking with the guy...:whip:
Sarcasm is hard to read. Trust me, my sarcasm always comes across mean when its not intended.

I remember when I first started I was given a hard time on every post.

Looking out for the (sniff, sniff) new guys.

fan no matter what
06-22-2006, 02:27 PM
thanks

i dont really care what anyone thinks about my posts. I am an avid fan who follows all aspects of texan football as if it was a religon. i just throw my 2 cents in on occassion.

Double Barrel
06-22-2006, 02:31 PM
thanks

i dont really care what anyone thinks about my posts. I am an avid fan who follows all aspects of texan football as if it was a religon. i just throw my 2 cents in on occassion.

Welcome to the forum, man. :howdy: Stick around and try the dip!

You are more than welcome to throw your two cents (or heck, even a dollar) around whenever you want to, because that's what it's all about (like the Hokey Pokey! <---ummm, really dated reference there, sorry)

fan no matter what
06-22-2006, 02:35 PM
thanks alot guys

love to talk football with any fans any time

Vinny
06-22-2006, 02:36 PM
diehadfanfrombegining, or fan no matter what (whomever you are today).....welcome.

TK_Gamer
06-22-2006, 02:40 PM
we're going on 5 years now...... maybe our QB is ready.......

I also see Vince starting and being more productive than Matt a lot sooner. Matt gets no playing time, if the Cardinals are winning. & that team is built to win. So if he doesn't beat out Warner in the Preseason, it may be next year before he straps on his helmet.

Tennessee aren't expect a winning season in '06....... they've got nothing to lose. If Vince can prove that he's ready...... which all reports indicate that he is doing...... he might start early in '06.

for your information Carr started all those years, and took hits that would have ended careers of lesser athletes, and we didnt have crappy seasons because of carr, you really need to get a new gripe i think. just my oppinion

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 02:50 PM
i have not been posting very long you are right. but i have been a texans fan since the beginning. :twocents:

i dont have any problems with vy but i think david carr hasnt had a chance and with the coaching staff and upgrades to the line he should have a much improved year. of course that doesnt come without it actually happening and we will all be a little wiser this time next year.:redtowel:


We can say the same thing for Jabar Gaffney, Marcus Coleman, & Milford Brown....

but we don't. Heck Babin gets ragged on for doing the best he can at a position he had never played before in his life.

for your information Carr started all those years, and took hits that would have ended careers of lesser athletes, and we didnt have crappy seasons because of carr, you really need to get a new gripe i think. just my oppinion


2 year minimum wait on Vince..... that's what you said.......

we're on the David Carr 5 year plan..... that's what I said.

I didn't and haven't blamed one loss on David Carr.

Vinny
06-22-2006, 02:54 PM
for your information Carr started all those years, and took hits that would have ended careers of lesser athletes, and we didnt have crappy seasons because of carr, you really need to get a new gripe i think. just my oppinion
Oh please, I have most of the games taped and I don't see all these vicious hits. Carr has rarely gotten lit up for a guy who was sacked as much as he was.....he caused many of them himself you know. He runs out of bounds or hits the turf pretty quickly.

edo783
06-22-2006, 02:55 PM
fan no matter what, can stick around and is most welcome to the MB. However, I don't want no 2 cents or even a dollar, I want him to buy the BEER!

fan no matter what
06-22-2006, 02:55 PM
thanks all

i literally read the threads daily to see what everyone has to say, or see if anyone has any information that i havent heard yet. it is a pleasure to actually have some conversation with you guys.

real
06-22-2006, 02:56 PM
I don't recall him taking Many hard shots...He's taken alot of hits, but i don't recall seeing too many where I thought he wouldn't get up...

TexansLucky13
06-22-2006, 02:58 PM
I didn't and haven't blamed one loss on David Carr.

Why not? QB is a focal point in the scheme of things when it comes to player contribution. An Offensive Tackle who does his job better than anyone else on every play will only result in giving the QB more time to throw, or improving the run block scheme. A Wide Reciever may run a route incorrectly, or drop a pass, but the QB still has more options. A Running Back is the only individual player other than QB who can produce, consistently and significantly, more yardage per game simply by being good at what he does.

Why shouldn't you be able to blame a loss on a QB? If you can blame it on a Kicker, you can blame it on the QB just as easily.

I don't "blame" a loss on Carr, as you said. But could we have had more wins if he would have played consistently better? Of course. It's sortof the same thing, in the end.

TK_Gamer
06-22-2006, 03:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't recall him taking Many hard shots...He's taken alot of hits, but i don't recall seeing too many where I thought he wouldn't get up...



you really gonna go there? he's takin more cumulative damage in each season than most probowlers take in there career. i guess some people can find fault even in someones documented and editorialized strengths. i give up , Im not gonna reply to a carr thread again till after training camp. if none of us reply the carr haters can talk to each other, form a bond, a sorrority if you will.

Vinny
06-22-2006, 03:10 PM
you really gonna go there? he's takin more cumulative damage in each season than most probowlers take in there career. I've been watching the NFL since 1971 or so....I think you are reaching hard here.

GP
06-22-2006, 05:23 PM
Then why hasn't Andre Johnson ever been called out on here? I have said things about problems with his performance in the past and it goes ignored, but every day I get on here there is a new thread having to do something with Carr.

Because people love to call out the guy who is supposed to be "the leader" of the team. I'm beginning to see that the QB position is the lightning rod for most fans' scrutiny.

Oh well, so be it.

You have a great point: Why the dumping on Carr but yet not on a guy (AJ) who has been relatively absent, as well, over the past few seasons?

Which leads me to theorize that the Carr bashing is more of a personal attack rather than anything relating to football.

GP
06-22-2006, 05:38 PM
Thunderkyss:

After I asked "Do you support our QB, or harbor a desire to see him fail..." you replied by not quoting that section of my post. In addition, you wrote the following in response to the question:

"...As for me, and who I support....... I honestly believe this team can go 13-3... and that's what I'm rooting for..." -- Thunderkyss.

This is what I am driving at, OK? You seem to be unable to go on the record as to being a Carr supporter. You "say" you support us going 13-3, but it was void of Carr's name attached to it.

Now, to your credit--later on with another post--you do say that you do not wish to see Carr fail, and that you want us to go 13-3.

We've been arguing about nothing, to tell everyone the truth. This is a non-issue and while it's been semi-good to re-visit and/or re-live the Carr extension and it's ramifications on our team and its direction...this is a topic that probably should be dropped until Carr actually plays a down of NFL football in early September. Any takers?

mexican_texan
06-22-2006, 05:39 PM
Because people love to call out the guy who is supposed to be "the leader" of the team. I'm beginning to see that the QB position is the lightning rod for most fans' scrutiny.

Oh well, so be it.

You have a great point: Why the dumping on Carr but yet not on a guy (AJ) who has been relatively absent, as well, over the past few seasons?

Which leads me to theorize that the Carr bashing is more of a personal attack rather than anything relating to football.
Maybe the fact that David Carr got a 3 year $24 million option picked up while he hasn't shown that he can be a player that earns an average of $8 mill. a year. AJ, on the other hand, went to the Pro Bowl in 04 and was hurt in 05.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 05:45 PM
Which leads me to theorize that the Carr bashing is more of a personal attack rather than anything relating to football.


You're right.... my opinion of David Carr is way off, and has nothing what-so-ever to do with Football.

I hope he plays in 2006 exactly like he did in 2005...... which is just like he played in 2004......... which is just like he played in 2003..... which is just like he played in 2002.....

real
06-22-2006, 05:45 PM
Because people love to call out the guy who is supposed to be "the leader" of the team. I'm beginning to see that the QB position is the lightning rod for most fans' scrutiny.

Oh well, so be it.

You have a great point: Why the dumping on Carr but yet not on a guy (AJ) who has been relatively absent, as well, over the past few seasons?

Which leads me to theorize that the Carr bashing is more of a personal attack rather than anything relating to football.

1) Carr has been the face of the franchise since day 1
2) A.J has been a better reciever than Carr has been a QB
3) Carr is the assumed leader

I don't understan why ya'll cant understand why Carr comes under more scrutiny than anyone else...But you are right...All we can do is wait for him to prove himself...

GP
06-22-2006, 05:47 PM
Oh please, I have most of the games taped and I don't see all these vicious hits. Carr has rarely gotten lit up for a guy who was sacked as much as he was.....he caused many of them himself you know. He runs out of bounds or hits the turf pretty quickly.

And it's been either theorized (or proven) that Capers might have been ordering Carr to take those easy sacks, or run out of bounds, in an effort to (A) NOT risk the interception on a hurried pass and/or (B) To ensure that the clock continues to roll instead of getting stopped on an incomplete pass.

Now that might be just as grandiose of a theory as the second gunmen on the grassy knolle was, but it makes a lot of sense when we look at the fact that Capers style itself was designed to run off the clock as much as possible, via the run-run-throw to the RB playcalling he stylized so much over the past four years. His idea was to keep it close until the 4th quarter, after all.

And we do know that Carr was the consumate "company man" who didn't do much to serve himself by ripping up Capers when given the chance. Carr was loyal to the coach.

texan279
06-22-2006, 05:52 PM
Maybe the fact that David Carr got a 3 year $24 million option picked up while he hasn't shown that he can be a player that earns an average of $8 mill. a year. AJ, on the other hand, went to the Pro Bowl in 04 and was hurt in 05.

It was either pay Carr for the extension or let him become a free agent, no one had any say in the amount Carr was paid, it was either 8 mil a season or let him go. Johnson went to the pro bowl once, that doesn't mean he is earning his paycheck now.

jerek
06-22-2006, 05:53 PM
This is about what I expected to see in my biweekly Carr thread checkup.

Forgive me for interrupting. Carry on.

real
06-22-2006, 05:53 PM
It was either pay Carr for the extension or let him become a free agent, no one had any say in the amount Carr was paid, it was either 8 mil a season or let him go. Johnson went to the pro bowl once, that doesn't mean he is earning his paycheck now.

I think they could've gone with a lesser option on Carr...

texan279
06-22-2006, 05:53 PM
1) Carr has been the face of the franchise since day 1
2) A.J has been a better reciever than Carr has been a QB
3) Carr is the assumed leader

I don't understan why ya'll cant understand why Carr comes under more scrutiny than anyone else...But you are right...All we can do is wait for him to prove himself...

I don't see how Carr is the "assumed" leader because he is our QB, there are "leaders" on other teams who are not the QB.

texan279
06-22-2006, 05:56 PM
I think they could've gone with a lesser option on Carr...

The Texans have finally exercised the $8 million option that extends quarterback David Carr's contract through the 2008 season, a person close to the team said today.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3649092.html

It was an $8 option from his rookie contract, it was basically a contract extension from his rookie contract, no negotiation on the salary.

real
06-22-2006, 06:02 PM
I don't see how Carr is the "assumed" leader because he is our QB, there are "leaders" on other teams who are not the QB.

Are you serious?? ....So IYO, who IS the leader ?

texan279
06-22-2006, 06:05 PM
Are you serious?? ....So IYO, who IS the leader ?

I don't have an opinion on who the "leader" of the team is, I'm not in the locker room with the players or on the field with them. I just don't understand how you can assume a certain player is the "leader" of a team because he plays a certain position.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 06:09 PM
Thunderkyss:
We've been arguing about nothing, to tell everyone the truth. This is a non-issue and while it's been semi-good to re-visit and/or re-live the Carr extension and it's ramifications on our team and its direction...this is a topic that probably should be dropped until Carr actually plays a down of NFL football in early September. Any takers?

Nah...... not me.

it's not about can Carr win or not. I believe he can, but to get us(me) to were we(I) want this team to be, he needs to be playing better than he has.

True, he's been behind a poor offensive line.... True, Capers has proven to be less than adequate at developing QBs..... True, Carr has taken a lot of sacks...

But he still looks like a rookie learning how to play in the NFL.

This thread was started as a "See Carr should be better at this stage of his Career than he is" Pointing to some things Kubiak has said about Carr. He didn't come right out, and say that, but it's the feeling I get.

I'm just saying, instead of just jumping on everyone who criticise Carr(and yes, there are some who Bash Carr for other reasons....) just tell us what you really think, like every other topic.

Carr ran into a lot of sacks....... Car hit the ground, before he got touched..... Carr ran out of bounds with the ball..... Carr never looks for the second option...... Carr threw that one in the dirt..

Just say,"Yeah, I hope Kubiak fixes that"

trust me, I can go onto the Colts board, as a Texans fan, and say,"Peyton needs to learn how to better handle pressure" & other than the obvious,"get out of here you texans troll" responses, I'll get more," well yeah, he needs to improve on that...... but that's not going to happen very often.... I'm confident we'll fix that problem"

Most of the Carr Critics here, are true Texans fans, and most of us(well me anyway) would rather see Carr get better, than just get rid of him altogether. .. now.

We can, and do criticize Babin, Peek, Greenwood, Buchannon, McKinney, Wade, Wand, Pitts, Gaffney, TJ, etc.... with no problem. we have supporters, and detractors...... we have our discussion, and everything is everything.

But talk about Carr...... and watch out.


Oh, and I will admit, when I started this thread, there were more Carr threads than I realized..... the others don't say Carr in the title...... honest mistake.

real
06-22-2006, 06:10 PM
I don't have an opinion on who the "leader" of the team is, I'm not in the locker room with the players or on the field with them. I just don't understand how you can assume a certain player is the "leader" of a team because he plays a certain position.

NO .........Comment ......I'll let francis talk...........:francis:

Double Barrel
06-22-2006, 06:25 PM
And it's been either theorized (or proven) that Capers might have been ordering Carr to take those easy sacks, or run out of bounds, in an effort to (A) NOT risk the interception on a hurried pass and/or (B) To ensure that the clock continues to roll instead of getting stopped on an incomplete pass.

Now that might be just as grandiose of a theory as the second gunmen on the grassy knolle was, but it makes a lot of sense when we look at the fact that Capers style itself was designed to run off the clock as much as possible, via the run-run-throw to the RB playcalling he stylized so much over the past four years. His idea was to keep it close until the 4th quarter, after all.

And we do know that Carr was the consumate "company man" who didn't do much to serve himself by ripping up Capers when given the chance. Carr was loyal to the coach.

That's as nice of an excuse as any, so why not? Blame it on Capers...he's not here to defend himself! ;)

Although...one could point out that there are ways to avoid taking a sack stat...like throwing out of bounds...but of course, Capers said not to do that, either. :tease: [/chain yank]

These Carr threads do get to the point of silly by the end, though...and with that, I leave you this: :francis:

Vinny
06-22-2006, 08:59 PM
I don't see how Carr is the "assumed" leader because he is our QB, there are "leaders" on other teams who are not the QB.and most of those teams didn't spend a first overall on them either. You take the massive cap hit paycheck...you take the bad with the good. He has yet to live up to his cap hit so he is still paid on spec 60 starts into his career. That's the reason he gets so much of the banter around here...good, and bad.

srstex
06-22-2006, 09:18 PM
AJ was a probowler-who threw the passes, oh yeah Carr. Who called the plays, well that would be Capers and if you don't run the plays the coach calls you won't be running plays at all. I watch a lot of games and last year the the entire team lost faith by the fourth game, the offense had no imagination, and the defense was run poorly. I have said it before, teams run away from Babin, and he was demoted last year for not trailing a play, he was always triling the play because no one ran at him, they ran at Peek, or Wong. This is a TEAM effort, not the Carr experience, the Problem was Capers the symptoms were poor results, and poor records.

texan279
06-22-2006, 10:08 PM
and most of those teams didn't spend a first overall on them either. You take the massive cap hit paycheck...you take the bad with the good. He has yet to live up to his cap hit so he is still paid on spec 60 starts into his career. That's the reason he gets so much of the banter around here...good, and bad.

Alex Smith was the #1 overall pick in 2005, is he the "leader" of the 49'ers? How about Eli Manning, is he the "leader" of the Giants? Is Carson Palmer the "leader" of the Bengals? Tim Couch the lader of the Browns, oh wait he doesn't play there anymore. Andre Johnson has not played to the level in which he is paid either 3 seasons into his career, but no one says a word, because he made one pro bowl during one mediocre season he had.

CajunTexan
06-22-2006, 10:15 PM
It's amazing how his contract is still such a big reason that people wish D.Carr wasn't a Texan. The simple fact is that he agreed to a legal contract 4 years ago that bound him to the team. In that contract, it stated that if the team wanted to keep him after the 4th year, which they did, they would have to pay him a large sum of money to do so. Contracts are contracts, and as much as many people hate it, it has already gone against the cap for this season. There is nothing that can be done about it now. Carr has the tools, we all know it. Build a bridge and get over it.

This has been my take on the contract issue. His original contract was negotiated as a rookie based on his potential. DC meet "certain performance incentive" that voided the final 3 years and opened up the option. The point is, the team negotiated the deal, Carr meet the incentives, the team picked up the option. The team had choices and they made them. Its done, get....over....it!:)

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 10:18 PM
Alex Smith was the #1 overall pick in 2005, is he the "leader" of the 49'ers? How about Eli Manning, is he the "leader" of the Giants? Is Carson Palmer the "leader" of the Bengals? Tim Couch the lader of the Browns, oh wait he doesn't play there anymore. Andre Johnson has not played to the level in which he is paid either 3 seasons into his career, but no one says a word, because he made one pro bowl during one mediocre season he had.


Andre Johnson has shown flashes of greatness, with much more consistency than David Carr...... you are blind, or a fool, if you don't believe AJ is special.

And if your team is going to be rememberable, you have to have a field leader. On offense, that guy has to be the QB..... that's just the way it is. He calls the plays, he is the executor of every play.

Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, Bret Favre, John Elway, Jonny Unitas, even Jim Kelly........ who else were supposed to lead these teams??

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 10:19 PM
This has been my take on the contract issue. His original contract was negotiated as a rookie based on his potential. DC meet "certain performance incentive" that voided the final 3 years and opened up the option. The point is, the team negotiated the deal, Carr meet the incentives, the team picked up the option. The team had choices and they made them. Its done, get....over....it!:)

you wouldn't happen to know what those incentives were would you??

Kaiser Toro
06-22-2006, 10:22 PM
Quack! Quack! Quack!

texan279
06-22-2006, 10:23 PM
Andre Johnson has shown flashes of greatness, with much more consistency than David Carr...... you are blind, or a fool, if you don't believe AJ is special.

And if your team is going to be rememberable, you have to have a field leader. On offense, that guy has to be the QB..... that's just the way it is. He calls the plays, he is the executor of every play.

Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, Bret Favre, John Elway, Jonny Unitas, even Jim Kelly........ who else were supposed to lead these teams??

So you think AJ deserves his check based on "flashes of greatness" but you complain about what we pay Carr based on potential? :rolleyes: Makes sense to me...AJ sure was consistent in dropping passes last season...And usually the offensive coordinator calls the plays unless you're Manning...As far as who else would lead the teams, how about Michael Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, Thurman Thomas off the top of my head...

TexanFan881
06-22-2006, 10:23 PM
What I don't understand is why does it matter how much we're paying Carr? We're under the cap by about 4 mil atleast and it's not like there is anyone available that can lead this team better than Carr. We're not going to get a better WR than Andre Johnson either. Kubiak has also said that he wants Carr to be a more vocal leader and I'm sure Carr will respond. I know we're giving Andre Johnson and David Carr a lot of money but we're not going to get anyone better and they are two of the better players on our team. There's only two good free agents left out there: Ty Law (we can't afford him) and Lance Shulters (but we can afford him if we want him). Kubiak likes the DB position so I don't see why we'd spend money on them anyways. So Carr and AJ haven't lived up to there contract yet, but it's not like they're "huge salaries" are holding us back from getting more players.

texan279
06-22-2006, 10:29 PM
What I don't understand is why does it matter how much we're paying Carr? We're under the cap by about 4 mil atleast and it's not like there is anyone available that can lead this team better than Carr. We're not going to get a better WR than Andre Johnson either. Kubiak has also said that he wants Carr to be a more vocal leader and I'm sure Carr will respond. I know we're giving Andre Johnson and David Carr a lot of money but we're not going to get anyone better and they are two of the better players on our team. There's only two good free agents left out there: Ty Law (we can't afford him) and Lance Shulters (but we can afford him if we want him). Kubiak likes the DB position so I don't see why we'd spend money on them anyways. So Carr and AJ haven't lived up to there contract yet, but it's not like they're "huge salaries" are holding us back from getting more players.

I really do not have a problem with what anyone is paid. What I have a problem with is people complaining about Carr's salary being paid on "potential" when there are players like AJ who haven't really done anything or guys like Wade who are making big bucks and underperforming and no one says a word...

CajunTexan
06-22-2006, 10:37 PM
I'd like to nominate this post for "Post of the Off-Season."

That's exactly what is behind a lot of this spinning--folks taking often but not always overstated positions in the 1st place not owning up to the fact they may be wrong or a player has improved.

I would like to second that nomination. Motion carried.

CajunTexan
06-22-2006, 10:39 PM
you wouldn't happen to know what those incentives were would you??

You know Kyss, I don't. But would be very interested to see what they were.

Kaiser Toro
06-22-2006, 10:43 PM
Wade was a flop and should be cut. Carr has not been a good return on investment to date and then we extended this still unproven commodity. This is year four for AJ, he could be better, but he is not at the top of the list of people we need to harp on as people for the most part think it is a ridiculous proposition and voice it by not startinig threads about AJ being over valued.

GP
06-22-2006, 10:43 PM
I'll take Thunderkyss' statements from his previous post, and take 'em one at a time:

Thunderkyss says: It's not about can Carr win or not. I believe he can, but to get us(me) to were we(I) want this team to be, he needs to be playing better than he has.

GP says: If Carr is talented enough to earn your confidence, then understand something: He, like most other players on our team, have always been talented enough to earn their pay (in one respect or another), but because of the system the players were forced to operate within...their talent could not overcome the fundamental flaws of the system that would never allow their talent to be utilized or maximized properly. I think all of us were able to see that our coaching staff had no idea, or no desire, to even try to stretch the field. Again, we were running plays (called by Capers and Co., by the way) that teenagers use in flag football by drawing the play in the dirt. It was so comical to see grown men, such as Carr and the entire offense, being forced to run dinks and dunks all day, and the other team's defense just laughing at us and stacking the line with almost all their players. So, I would say that Carr has drawn far more criticism than the other names you mention.

Thunderkyss says: Carr ran into a lot of sacks....... Car hit the ground, before he got touched..... Carr ran out of bounds with the ball..... Carr never looks for the second option...... Carr threw that one in the dirt..

GP says: All of that was more or less a natural outcome of the inability of our coaching staff to give proper playcalling and/or to expose the defense's weaknesses. And the more heat Carr got, the MORE conservative Capers would get with the playcalling to try and protect him. It's getting to be a broken record, and you should be able to admit this one true factor of football: If you NEVER establish a downfield threat, or even a middle-of-the-field threat against a defense, the defense will creep up and just smash you in the mouth all day long...until you get tired of getting your chops busted. That's what happened to us. Teams were teeing off on the offensive linemen, and those guys were just shell-shocked by the middle of the first quarter of each game. Oh yeah, except the Cardinals game...which Carr was given control of by McNair and Reeves. We scored 24 points that half and won the game. Ding! Ding! Ding! One half of one game, and the team flourishes.

Thunderkyss says: Most of the Carr Critics here, are true Texans fans, and most of us(well me anyway) would rather see Carr get better, than just get rid of him altogether. .. now.

GP says: Hold on a second. Aren't you the same guy who thinks VY will be an instant hit? And although I can't pinpoint it, I'd like to also think you probably would have been pretty OK with us ditching Carr and drafting Vince, correct? If I'm wrong...I apologize. But the thing I like to point out is that a fair share of people who are anti-Carr are indeed very much pro-Young. So in that sense, a pro-Vince fan has a biiiiiiiiiiiig conflict inside himself in terms of having to cheer Carr while biting the inside of his cheek while doing it. I don't know, I am having a hard time truly believing that an anti-Carr fan, although he might be a Texans fan, can fully enjoy any success that Carr might have this season. And I have an easier time envisioning an anti-Carr fan having a big smile on his face if he fails and gets yanked from the field.

Anyways, I think I gotta' run. Good discussion, though.

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 10:47 PM
Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, Bret Favre, John Elway, Jonny Unitas, even Jim Kelly........ who else were supposed to lead these teams??

While I understand your point, you have a couple of less than stellar examples in there. Multiple folks have pointed to the leaders of the Cowboys O as Irvin, Smith and Aikman in that order. There have also been comments over the years about Montana not being a leader in any regard other than as a good player--the same has been said of Peyton. The QB will always be the focus of the fans for leadership, but they aren't always the actual primary leader of the O.

Kaiser Toro
06-22-2006, 10:47 PM
Car Wash by Rose Royce

woo
you might not ever get rich
but let me tell ya better than diggin' a ditch
there ain't no tellin' who ya might meet.,
a movie star or may be even an indian chief

(workin' at the) car wash
workin' at the car wash yeah!
come on and sing with me car wash
get with feelin' y'all car wash yeah!

come summer the work gets kinda hard
thia ain't no place to be if ya planned on being a star
let me tell you it's always cool
and the boss don't mind sometimes if ya act a fool

at the car wash
talkin' about the car wash yeah!
come on and sing it for me car wash.
car was yeah!

(work and work)well those cars never seem to stop commin'
(work and work)keep those rags and machines hummin'
(work and work)my fingers to the bones
(work)at five i can't wait 'til it's time to go home
hey
get your car washed today
fill up and you don't have to pay
come on and give us a play
get a wash right away

car wash talkin' about the car wash yeah!
woo car wash

those cars never seems to stop comin'
well
i say
keep those rags and machines hummin'

CajunTexan
06-22-2006, 10:47 PM
thanks all

i literally read the threads daily to see what everyone has to say, or see if anyone has any information that i havent heard yet. it is a pleasure to actually have some conversation with you guys.

"Fan"....welcome. Conversation usually turns to "robust dialogue" in a Carr thread.

I don't know why everyone complains about them, they are usually the most entertaining!:redtowel:

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 10:49 PM
So you think AJ deserves his check based on "flashes of greatness" but you complain about what we pay Carr based on potential? :rolleyes: Makes sense to me...AJ sure was consistent in dropping passes last season...And usually the offensive coordinator calls the plays unless you're Manning...As far as who else would lead the teams, how about Michael Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, Thurman Thomas off the top of my head...

Do you seriously believe Michael Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, & Thurman Thomas were their team leaders, and not their QB??

Have you ever played football?? the QB is the leader. (that's a period in case you didn't see it).

texan279
06-22-2006, 10:52 PM
Do you seriously believe Michael Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, & Thurman Thomas were their team leaders, and not their QB??

Have you ever played football?? the QB is the leader. (that's a period in case you didn't see it).

I played football for 10 years at various levels until I had to have surgery on my knee and stop playing. See cak's post above if you have question's about team leaders. It is ridiculous to think that a QB is automatically a team leader because he plays QB...

CajunTexan
06-22-2006, 10:52 PM
Car Wash by Rose Royce

woo
you might not ever get rich
but let me tell ya better than diggin' a ditch
there ain't no tellin' who ya might meet.,
a movie star or may be even an indian chief

(workin' at the) car wash
workin' at the car wash yeah!
come on and sing with me car wash
get with feelin' y'all car wash yeah!

come summer the work gets kinda hard
thia ain't no place to be if ya planned on being a star
let me tell you it's always cool
and the boss don't mind sometimes if ya act a fool

at the car wash
talkin' about the car wash yeah!
come on and sing it for me car wash.
car was yeah!

(work and work)well those cars never seem to stop commin'
(work and work)keep those rags and machines hummin'
(work and work)my fingers to the bones
(work)at five i can't wait 'til it's time to go home
hey
get your car washed today
fill up and you don't have to pay
come on and give us a play
get a wash right away

car wash talkin' about the car wash yeah!
woo car wash

those cars never seems to stop comin'
well
i say
keep those rags and machines hummin'

See, what other thread could you get the words from a 70's trash disco tune!!!! KT, I know you didn't!

infantrycak
06-22-2006, 10:56 PM
I played football for 10 years at various levels until I had to have surgery on my knee and stop playing. See cak's post above if you have question's about team leaders. It is ridiculous to think that a QB is automatically a team leader because he plays QB...

Funny that we came up with two of the same QB's--Aikman and Montana.

thunderkyss
06-22-2006, 11:15 PM
I'll take Thunderkyss' statements from his previous post, and take 'em one at a time:

Thunderkyss says: It's not about can Carr win or not. I believe he can, but to get us(me) to were we(I) want this team to be, he needs to be playing better than he has.

GP says: If Carr is talented enough to earn your confidence, then understand something: He, like most other players on our team, have always been talented enough to earn their pay (in one respect or another), but because of the system the players were forced to operate within...their talent could not overcome the fundamental flaws of the system that would never allow their talent to be utilized or maximized properly. I think all of us were able to see that our coaching staff had no idea, or no desire, to even try to stretch the field. Again, we were running plays (called by Capers and Co., by the way) that teenagers use in flag football by drawing the play in the dirt. It was so comical to see grown men, such as Carr and the entire offense, being forced to run dinks and dunks all day, and the other team's defense just laughing at us and stacking the line with almost all their players. So, I would say that Carr has drawn far more criticism than the other names you mention.

Quincy Carter, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Charlie Batch, etc....... etc...... all those guys are talented enough to win a SuperBowl...... but they don't have that extra something that makes some guys NFL starting QBs, and others backups.

Thunderkyss says: Carr ran into a lot of sacks....... Car hit the ground, before he got touched..... Carr ran out of bounds with the ball..... Carr never looks for the second option...... Carr threw that one in the dirt..

GP says: All of that was more or less a natural outcome of the inability of our coaching staff to give proper playcalling and/or to expose the defense's weaknesses. And the more heat Carr got, the MORE conservative Capers would get with the playcalling to try and protect him. It's getting to be a broken record, and you should be able to admit this one true factor of football: If you NEVER establish a downfield threat, or even a middle-of-the-field threat against a defense, the defense will creep up and just smash you in the mouth all day long...until you get tired of getting your chops busted. That's what happened to us. Teams were teeing off on the offensive linemen, and those guys were just shell-shocked by the middle of the first quarter of each game. Oh yeah, except the Cardinals game...which Carr was given control of by McNair and Reeves. We scored 24 points that half and won the game. Ding! Ding! Ding! One half of one game, and the team flourishes.


whatever the reason..... that part of my post was just saying that when we say that, don't pull out the guns.. it's just honest criticism(because it all happened) just like we criticise Frank Weary, Steve McKinney, Pat Buchannon, Marlon Greenwood, Travis Johnson, and Jabar Gaffney...... & when I say we, I mean you guys, as I've never said one bad word about any of them.
And every reason you just mentioned to support Carr, can be used to defend every guy on our team....

Thunderkyss says: Most of the Carr Critics here, are true Texans fans, and most of us(well me anyway) would rather see Carr get better, than just get rid of him altogether. .. now.

GP says: Hold on a second. Aren't you the same guy who thinks VY will be an instant hit? And although I can't pinpoint it, I'd like to also think you probably would have been pretty OK with us ditching Carr and drafting Vince, correct? If I'm wrong...I apologize.



Don't apologize...... that's me, you got me pegged. the last word you quoted(now) means form where we are today. If this was prior to our decision to draft Mario, I'd drop David Carr in a heartbeat. we owed him nothing(monetarily) and I'd start with Vince.

But the thing I like to point out is that a fair share of people who are anti-Carr are indeed very much pro-Young. So in that sense, a pro-Vince fan has a biiiiiiiiiiiig conflict inside himself in terms of having to cheer Carr while biting the inside of his cheek while doing it. I don't know, I am having a hard time truly believing that an anti-Carr fan, although he might be a Texans fan, can fully enjoy any success that Carr might have this season. And I have an easier time envisioning an anti-Carr fan having a big smile on his face if he fails and gets yanked from the field.

Anyways, I think I gotta' run. Good discussion, though.

well, I can se your point..... and though I do feel we have a team capable of going 13-3(which is based on me hoping Carr plays alot better than he has) Vince being a success has nothing to do with the Texans or David Carr. I'll gloat when Vince goes to the ProBowl, I'll gloat when the guys on sportsCenter go ga-ga over Vince carrying his weak team to victory. & I'll gloat when Vince wins 4 games this year...... really that's more of an if....

I don't care to ever say hah, the Texans should have taken Vince..... if we had drafted Reggie, then I'd be hoping we failed miserably....

But I feel Reggie, Vince, & Mario were all #1 overall type picks. We needed Mario more than the other two, and Vince more than Reggie(even if DD has to get one leg amputated).

While I understand your point, you have a couple of less than stellar examples in there. Multiple folks have pointed to the leaders of the Cowboys O as Irvin, Smith and Aikman in that order. There have also been comments over the years about Montana not being a leader in any regard other than as a good player--the same has been said of Peyton. The QB will always be the focus of the fans for leadership, but they aren't always the actual primary leader of the O.

no........ not exactly.

Irvin was the teams spiritual leader..... kinda like the head cheerleader. Emmitt was like their mascott, the epitome of what that blue collar team was. Troy was their leader. He was the guy they all would have died for. They spilled blood on that field for him. They were the bus, he was the driver.

Same holds for Manning, and Montana.... those guys are referred to as field generals.....

bayoudreamn
06-22-2006, 11:40 PM
So when was the last time Randy Moss or T.O. Been to the ProBowl??

In his first three years, T.O. had 2553 yards..... his best season(of those first three years, 1097 yards, 67 catches, in 16 games.)

Randy Moss..... is a freak, and you just can't compare anyone to him.

Marvin Harrison... 2,476 yards his firt three years.... his best year, he had 73 catches, in 16 games.

Andre Johnson.... 2806 yards in his first three years... 79 catches his best year.

Everything about AJ says he is a player at that level.... he compares well with those guys, and he's only getting better.

Same with DD...... you can't find a scrub that has put up numbers equal to DDs for 4 years running....... DD is the real thing.

You have to go back to the 70s to find a winning QB with numbers like Carr's his first 4 years. Aaron Brooks' looks like a monster...... a proBowler, and a shoe in for the Hall of Fame compared to David Carr stat wise.

Quarterback stats are more dependent on the team than running back stats and to a lesser degree, wr stats. I wouldn't look at DCs stats to determine if he has winning team stats because he hasn't played on a winning teams since he's been in the NFL. If you want to look at his stats and compare him to the production of other quaterbacks, compare him to quarterbacks with the same w/L record.

bayoudreamn
06-22-2006, 11:56 PM
Of the 16, 9 have had 2 or more seasons with over 1000 yards rushing, and of the 18, 15 have had more than 2 seasons with over 1000 yards rushing.

Why are you supplying facts for him. He's making arguments without support and he attacks your data and then asks you to disprove his opinion. Which you did quite capably. Anyone reading this thread can see that, so there's no point in even answering anymore.

texan279
06-22-2006, 11:57 PM
Why are you supplying facts for him. He's making arguments without support and he attacks your data and then asks you to disprove his opinion. Which you did quite capably. Anyone reading this thread can see that, so there's no point in even answering anymore.

Yeah. I am pretty much through with it...

texan279
06-22-2006, 11:58 PM
Irvin was the teams spiritual leader..... kinda like the head cheerleader. Emmitt was like their mascott, the epitome of what that blue collar team was. Troy was their leader. He was the guy they all would have died for. They spilled blood on that field for him. They were the bus, he was the driver.

Same holds for Manning, and Montana.... those guys are referred to as field generals.....

I would love to know how you know all of this, or is this just your opinion?

bayoudreamn
06-23-2006, 12:01 AM
I think when you watch Moulds this year you will see a lot of AJ's deficiencies unless AJ is finally learning. Does AJ have a lot of talent, most certainly. Is he using that talent, NO. We got rid of the core of our wide receiver core and replaced it with new players. There is a reason and you will see it this season. Basically Carr really had no one to throw to who knew how to get open. Teams allowed AJ and DD to have the short ones, because that wasn't going to beat them. This year it will be very different. We have an excellent, not average, receiver core across the line. This year we have WR's and TE's that can spell trouble for any team we play.

We've also made changes to the offense line that appear to be upgrades and everyone hopes they turn out to be exactly that. We also changed the coaching staff with responsibility for the line and the change there also appears to be an upgrade. It won't take long to see if the changes provide Carr with opportunities he hasn't had before. If those opportunities develop and Carr still struggles I'm sure his effectiveness will be evaluated. Until then we can wait and see....it's only pre-July :crying:

Good comments Ibar Harry.....I enjoy reading your mind.

Hulk75
06-23-2006, 12:05 AM
Quincy Carter, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Charlie Batch, etc....... etc...... all those guys are talented enough to win a SuperBowl...... but they don't have that extra something that makes some guys NFL starting QBs, and others backups.
Yea like help on Offense.
Give me a break, did you just through Charlie Batch in there as maybe a Superbowl QB? I think I will laugh my self into a coma.
And one of them Lord forbid had Chris Palmer as his mentor.

TexanFan881
06-23-2006, 12:11 AM
Give me a break, did you just through Charlie Batch in there as maybe a Superbowl QB? I think I will laugh my self into a coma.

And Tim Couch. He couldn't even make the team for the Packers last year. :tv:

bayoudreamn
06-23-2006, 12:17 AM
I guess my philosophy on this topic is that no single player on our team played "well" in a 2-14 season. It was a complete meltdown of epic proportions.

Carr did NOT play well, but he was joined by about 50 other players around him who also did not play well. And the root cause, IMO, was coaching. Seasons prior to 2005 saw "good" play from most all Texans players, and the record reflects it. But I would say, with the exception of a few minor bursts of excitement via Jerome Mathis, that nobody played well at all.

In that sense, my friend, we all need to be honest enough to admit it.

And thus my entire point in this is that all of it is in the past. We got the flu shot and it hurt...but now we have a much better chance against the flu than I think we've ever had. Just the idea of not seeing Bradford and Gaffney atop the WR depth chart, or on the chart at all, is enough to get me excited. good luck to 'em, but I think they stayed on our team at least one season too long. And that was the kind of homerish, "he's my guy" type of decision making that Capers and crew constantly tripped over. There was ZERO competition for depth chart battles. Everybody was basically unionized.

But............some people obviously want to lump in the franchise QB with the dearly departed coaching staff. And that's where I just scratch my head in utter confusion. Yes, he did not play "well," but again I say: The entire team did not play well...heck, the 2004 season-ending debacle at home against Cleveland SHOULD have been the tipping point for Bob McNair, but he gave the coaching staff one more year to prove that it was just a fluke.

Admitting that Carr did not play well in 2005 is not admitting that he "can't" play. He was just as much a victim of circumstance as the other players on our team were. He's gonna' do better this year: Bank on it.

Ok. I get it. The reason we lost so many games last year, is because Capers and Casserly do not play well together.

bayoudreamn
06-23-2006, 12:20 AM
Well I am usually wrong. I thought Babin and Pbuc would be studs, I thought our O-line just needed time to gel, I thought no other line-backer in the world could be worse than Forman, I thought losing Foley was a whopedy-do, I thought Glenn was old and had lost a step, I thought Coleman was going to be a stud safety, I thought Capers would get us to a superbowl, I thought casserly could build a championship football team, I thought we would get the next superbowl, I thought there was no way in the world we would lose to Detroit and san diego, I thought we would take Reggie Bush.

I am wrong alot.

LOL.....you're right.

bayoudreamn
06-23-2006, 12:32 AM
we're going on 5 years now...... maybe our QB is ready.......

I also see Vince starting and being more productive than Matt a lot sooner. Matt gets no playing time, if the Cardinals are winning. & that team is built to win. So if he doesn't beat out Warner in the Preseason, it may be next year before he straps on his helmet.

Tennessee aren't expect a winning season in '06....... they've got nothing to lose. If Vince can prove that he's ready...... which all reports indicate that he is doing...... he might start early in '06.

....and he might bust....and then he can enjoy an offseason of hate mail from fans on his team MB too.

bayoudreamn
06-23-2006, 12:40 AM
Maybe the fact that David Carr got a 3 year $24 million option picked up while he hasn't shown that he can be a player that earns an average of $8 mill. a year. AJ, on the other hand, went to the Pro Bowl in 04 and was hurt in 05.

I'm still trying to figure out how AJ got hurt. He's a big guy and he didn't get sacked 200+ times :hmmm:

bayoudreamn
06-23-2006, 12:42 AM
I think they could've gone with a lesser option on Carr...

Can you back that up?

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 01:16 AM
On the subject of Carr being the team leader:

I have not seen anything about Carr saying he is the team leader or really recall any of the players saying he leads them. This of course doesn't mean anything other then that. I might of ignored it on assumption that he is though. I think McKinney said something about Carr being the leader back in 2002 or 2003.

On the subject of Montana:
Montana was the leader of his crews. He doesn't go so far as saying he is the leader of the team, but he states it plainly in his Art and Magic of Quarterbacking book, Chapter 5: Taking Charge. He leads the offense. He also points out Aikman as the leader of the Cowboys. Walsh says the same thing ( on Montana ).

On Leadership from Cliff Branch

From QAK HQ
Cliff Branch: Well, the 1980 season was a very interesting year because we traded Kenny Stabler for Dan Pastorini and picked up a lot of key players...Bobby Chandler and Burgess Owens from the Jets. So it was a very interesting year, first we were changing our leadership roles with bringing in Dan Pastorini and Jim Plunkett wanted me to back up and battle for that position and when Pastorini got hurt we were 2-3 and then when Plunkett took over we came together as a group and he gave us great leadership. We went into the playoffs as a Wild Card team, and we were the first Wild Card team to win a Super Bowl. The 1980 team was a very, very good team because of the fact of bringing in a lot of guys from trades and trading our leadership roles from Kenny Stabler to Pastorini and Jim Plunkett.

Stabler and Pastorini are great leaders. For Pastorini that was his greatest strength ( besides his toughness ). The point here is that leadership is pretty relative to your squad and that QBs 'are' the leaders ( way more often then not ).

texan279
06-23-2006, 02:08 AM
On the subject of Carr being the team leader:

I have not seen anything about Carr saying he is the team leader or really recall any of the players saying he leads them. This of course doesn't mean anything other then that. I might of ignored it on assumption that he is though. I think McKinney said something about Carr being the leader back in 2002 or 2003.

On the subject of Montana:
Montana was the leader of his crews. He doesn't go so far as saying he is the leader of the team, but he states it plainly in his Art and Magic of Quarterbacking book, Chapter 5: Taking Charge. He leads the offense. He also points out Aikman as the leader of the Cowboys. Walsh says the same thing ( on Montana ).

On Leadership from Cliff Branch

From QAK HQ


Stabler and Pastorini are great leaders. For Pastorini that was his greatest strength ( besides his toughness ). The point here is that leadership is pretty relative to your squad and that QBs 'are' the leaders ( way more often then not ).

I am not saying that QB's cannot be leaders, I just don't think it is a rule or standard for every QB to be the leader for their team. For example, I would think Ray Lewis would be more of a leader for the Ravens than than Kyle Boller, and look at what Favre and Harrington did to their respective teams. They may have been a leader for their teams at one time, but they sure have not acted like leaders lately for their teams. And as far as Carr goes, from what I saw last season, he was the most emotional/vocal player on the field except for maybe Gary Walker, Peek, or a few others.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 02:39 AM
I am not saying that QB's cannot be leaders, I just don't think it is a rule or standard for every QB to be the leader for their team.

Yeah I feel like I need to make something pretty clear, or air out some of the fog. I am not arguing as much as just tossing different things into the mix. I am really just passing on things that I have seen other people say like Montana.

The normal way it has been since QBs starting throwing the ball, is that the QB, in the very least, is the offensive leader. I imagine you can tell who the leaders are by who gets to go out for the coin toss.

Ben did not lead Steelers. McNair is not going to lead the Ravens. ( or I should say McNair is not going to start out leading the Ravens... it could change, but I wonder )
----

My personal opinion is that the Head Coach is the leader of the team. More so in the now, then in the past. In the past coaches were coaches, players played. That has changed quite a bit since Paul Brown showed up.

On Carr:
If someone came to me today with a $750,000 check and said it's yours if you can tell me what is wrong with the Texans, I would have to turn it down. I don't know.

BUT that still isn't going to deter me from trying to figure it out... I guess because it entertains me. idonno: If it was that easy the game would be boring like golf.

HJam72
06-23-2006, 02:58 AM
On Carr:
If someone came to me today with a $750,000 check and said it's yours if you can tell me what is wrong with the Texans, I would have to turn it down. I don't know.



I would take that check and tell them that the answer is:

they haven't played a season with their new head coach yet. :cool: The coaching staff was the problem.

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 07:59 AM
Why are you supplying facts for him. He's making arguments without support and he attacks your data and then asks you to disprove his opinion. Which you did quite capably. Anyone reading this thread can see that, so there's no point in even answering anymore.

which argument am I not supporting?? DD....... I'm saying DD is the real thing. That running for 1000 yards is a big deal, and doing it multiple years in a row is a bigger deal.... He said 16 players did it in 2005(I think) and 9 of those players did it the year before...... for that to disprove my point, then those players would have to be scrubs...... at least more than half of them. But they aren't. They are the best in the league, big time franchise type running backs. You show me Antowain Smith, or Bennett, or Thomas Jones running for 1000 yards in multiple seasons, or back to back seasons, then I'll agree it's no big deal. But we're talking about Franchise running backs, "superstars" that do it year in & year out... and only superstars.... I haven't compiled the list of the 9 backs or the 15 that repeated the feat in back to back years, 2004/2005.... maybe I should. But the only way he can move forward on his point is to make that list, and show where 2nd class runningbacks are running amok on the NFL with 1000 yard years back to back.

& maybe I should admit that 1000 yards isn't such a big deal. Especially, if the RB has only done it once, and has the help of a 3500 yard passing game... DD has done it twice, once with a 3500 yard passing offense, and once without.

Look at it this way: 2003: 2005:
1. Jamal Lewis BAL 2066 906
2. Ahman Green GB 1883 255
3. LaDainian Tomlinson SD 1645 1462
4. Deuce McAllister NO 1641 335
5. Clinton Portis DEN 1591 1516
6. Fred Taylor JAC 1572 787
7. Stephen Davis CAR 1444 549
8. Shaun Alexander SEA 1435 1880
9. Priest Holmes KC 1420 451
10.Ricky Williams MIA 1372 743
11.Travis Henry BUF 1356 335
12.Curtis Martin NYJ 1308 735
13.Edgerrin James IND 1259 1506
14.Tiki Barber NYG 1216 1860
15.Eddie George TEN 1031
16.Domanick Davis HOU 1031 976
17.Anthony Thomas CHI 1024 92
18.Kevan Barlow SF 1024 581

Ok..... so now we have.

Ladanian Tomlinson, Clinton Portis, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Tiki Barber

That's it.... that's 5 guys that ran for 1000 yards in 2003, 2004, and 2005. Domanick Davis ran for 1000 yards in 2003, as a rookie coming off the bench. he ran for 1000 yards in 2004, and missed it in 2005 by 24 yards.

I don't know how many people will run for over 1000 yards in 2006, but I'm willing to bet money, that DD will be one of them.

TEXANRED
06-23-2006, 08:14 AM
Tkyss!!!!!!! See what you've done!

I hope you are proud of yourself.:)

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 08:23 AM
I would love to know how you know all of this, or is this just your opinion?

the same way infantrycak knows what he posted..... I remember watching interviews by various team mates saying exactly what I stated. & I know Troy was referred to as the "Field General" multiple times by the T.V. commentators/sports analasysts....... I want to say they coined the phrase talking about Troy.

Yea like help on Offense.
Give me a break, did you just through Charlie Batch in there as maybe a Superbowl QB? I think I will laugh my self into a coma.
And one of them Lord forbid had Chris Palmer as his mentor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Charlie Batch help his team get to the SuperBowl?? If I'm not mistaken, he also has a SuperBowl Ring.

And Tim Couch. He couldn't even make the team for the Packers last year. :tv:

So now you're saying Tim Couch has no talent??

9800 yards his first 4 years, with only 51 starts. 57 TDs, 61 Ints... avg QB rating 75.1. 60.27 avg completion pct.

Compared to the guy we all know is oozing with talent....

10624 yards his first 4 years in 60 starts.... 48 TDs, 53 Ints... avg QB rating...73.7....... 57.8 avg completion pct.....

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 08:44 AM
....and he might bust....and then he can enjoy an offseason of hate mail from fans on his team MB too.


what are you saying??

that Carr is a bust??

or that this is hate mail??

I'm just criticizing the guy, I don't think it's gone overboard or anything. If 279 wants to start an AJ thread, I'll get in on that one too.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 08:49 AM
So now you're saying Tim Couch has no talent??

9800 yards his first 4 years, with only 51 starts. 57 TDs, 61 Ints... avg QB rating 75.1. 60.27 avg completion pct.

Compared to the guy we all know is oozing with talent....

10624 yards his first 4 years in 60 starts.... 48 TDs, 53 Ints... avg QB rating...73.7....... 57.8 avg completion pct.....

Yeah but did Tim Couch have a better college career then Dave?

:)

He actually has very similiar circumstances to the Texans and Carr. The only big difference I think is that Couch has shoulder damage. Another major difference is that Couch didn't have the support of the community like Carr has. The Browns were expecting "the Browns" to be back sooner then anyone here expected the Texans to be up and flying.

texan279
06-23-2006, 08:59 AM
the same way infantrycak knows what he posted..... I remember watching interviews by various team mates saying exactly what I stated. & I know Troy was referred to as the "Field General" multiple times by the T.V. commentators/sports analasysts....... I want to say they coined the phrase talking about Troy.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Charlie Batch help his team get to the SuperBowl?? If I'm not mistaken, he also has a SuperBowl Ring.



So now you're saying Tim Couch has no talent??

9800 yards his first 4 years, with only 51 starts. 57 TDs, 61 Ints... avg QB rating 75.1. 60.27 avg completion pct.

Compared to the guy we all know is oozing with talent....

10624 yards his first 4 years in 60 starts.... 48 TDs, 53 Ints... avg QB rating...73.7....... 57.8 avg completion pct.....

Commentators and analysts, I'd rather hear it from his teammates or coaches myself.

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 09:01 AM
He actually has very similiar circumstances to the Texans and Carr. The only big difference I think is that Couch has shoulder damage. Another major difference is that Couch didn't have the support of the community like Carr has. The Browns were expecting "the Browns" to be back sooner then anyone here expected the Texans to be up and flying.

The other big difference is Couch was a flat line--he started mid 70's QB rating and ended mid 70's QB rating. Until last year steady progress was being made with Carr going 62.8, 69.5, 83.5. Folks are more patient when they see progress. No progress last year, in fact regression, and the QB will face the wrath of the fans.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 09:07 AM
The other big difference is Couch was a flat line--he started mid 70's QB rating and ended mid 70's QB rating. Until last year steady progress was being made with Carr going 62.8, 69.5, 83.5. Folks are more patient when they see progress. No progress last year, in fact regression, and the QB will face the wrath of the fans.

O yeah for sure. I agree.

texan279
06-23-2006, 09:09 AM
9800 yards his first 4 years, with only 51 starts. 57 TDs, 61 Ints... avg QB rating 75.1. 60.27 avg completion pct.

Compared to the guy we all know is oozing with talent....

10624 yards his first 4 years in 60 starts.... 48 TDs, 53 Ints... avg QB rating...73.7....... 57.8 avg completion pct.....

Why didn't you post Couch's career stats? For his career his completion percentage was 59.8 and he threw 67 INT's, that is 14 more than Carr has thrown and Couch only played in 2 more games.

real
06-23-2006, 09:14 AM
Why didn't you post Couch's career stats? For his career his completion percentage was 59.8 and he threw 67 INT's, that is 14 more than Carr has thrown and Couch only played in 2 more games.
Carr's Stats aren't outrageously far off from Couch's....If he was a bust Carr isn't too far off...:fireball:

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 09:14 AM
the same way infantrycak knows what he posted..... I remember watching interviews by various team mates saying exactly what I stated. & I know Troy was referred to as the "Field General" multiple times by the T.V. commentators/sports analasysts....... I want to say they coined the phrase talking about Troy.

Could be, but I doubt it. I watched Cowboys football until the Texans came to town. Did you ever watch Cowboy games in that era? Irvin and Smith stormed the sidelines of that team motivating everyone. Aikman spent much more time talking to the OC and HC. Aikman was a great QB, but the field general stuff comes (a) from folks generally tendency to credit the QB with the team's success (and the obvious fact that the QB gives the play and therefore inherently gives directions ) and more importantly (b) because of his smart, efficient play--as a contrast to the flashy play of Elway, Favre and Marino--i.e. he wasn't a gambler taking the team on his shoulders, he was efficiently taking advantage of the team's assets. In any event, the point wasn't that he wasn't A leader, but that he was not the 1st one the team or even the O looked to. I have watched the sidelines for four years for anyone on either side of the ball stalking the sidelines like Irvin and Smith did--haven't seen it yet.

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 09:26 AM
Why didn't you post Couch's career stats? For his career his completion percentage was 59.8 and he threw 67 INT's, that is 14 more than Carr has thrown and Couch only played in 2 more games.

Do you think that makes Couch look worse compared to Carr?? or not as Good??

I just used his 4 year stats, to keep it on even ground with Carr's 4 year stats... The Browns had enough after 4, and decided to let Couch go. I didn't even realize that they both had the same number of career starts.. Tim in 5 years, to Carr's 4 years.

for his Career, Carr has thrown 48 touchdowns, and 53 ints..... that's 1.10 ints/touchdown

for his career, couch has thrown 64 touchdowns, and 67 ints..... that's 1.04

and 59.8 is still better than 57.8

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 09:30 AM
Could be, but I doubt it. I watched Cowboys football until the Texans came to town. Did you ever watch Cowboy games in that era? Irvin and Smith stormed the sidelines of that team motivating everyone. Aikman spent much more time talking to the OC and HC. Aikman was a great QB, but the field general stuff comes (a) from folks generally tendency to credit the QB with the team's success (and the obvious fact that the QB gives the play and therefore inherently gives directions ) and more importantly (b) because of his smart, efficient play--as a contrast to the flashy play of Elway, Favre and Marino--i.e. he wasn't a gambler taking the team on his shoulders, he was efficiently taking advantage of the team's assets. In any event, the point wasn't that he wasn't A leader, but that he was not the 1st one the team or even the O looked to. I have watched the sidelines for four years for anyone on either side of the ball stalking the sidelines like Irvin and Smith did--haven't seen it yet.

Ok, motivating from the sideline.......... around here, we call that cheerleading.

I'm talking about commanding games, directing plays, executing your job to the best of your ability, and comanding that same effort from the other 10 guys on the field. I'm talking about patting the guy on the but when he does good, and getting in his face when he screws up. I'm talking about being a coach on the field.

texan279
06-23-2006, 09:34 AM
which argument am I not supporting?? DD....... I'm saying DD is the real thing. That running for 1000 yards is a big deal, and doing it multiple years in a row is a bigger deal.... He said 16 players did it in 2005(I think) and 9 of those players did it the year before...... for that to disprove my point, then those players would have to be scrubs...... at least more than half of them. But they aren't. They are the best in the league, big time franchise type running backs. You show me Antowain Smith, or Bennett, or Thomas Jones running for 1000 yards in multiple seasons, or back to back seasons, then I'll agree it's no big deal. But we're talking about Franchise running backs, "superstars" that do it year in & year out... and only superstars.... I haven't compiled the list of the 9 backs or the 15 that repeated the feat in back to back years, 2004/2005.... maybe I should. But the only way he can move forward on his point is to make that list, and show where 2nd class runningbacks are running amok on the NFL with 1000 yard years back to back.

& maybe I should admit that 1000 yards isn't such a big deal. Especially, if the RB has only done it once, and has the help of a 3500 yard passing game... DD has done it twice, once with a 3500 yard passing offense, and once without.

Look at it this way: 2003: 2005:
1. Jamal Lewis BAL 2066 906
2. Ahman Green GB 1883 255
3. LaDainian Tomlinson SD 1645 1462
4. Deuce McAllister NO 1641 335
5. Clinton Portis DEN 1591 1516
6. Fred Taylor JAC 1572 787
7. Stephen Davis CAR 1444 549
8. Shaun Alexander SEA 1435 1880
9. Priest Holmes KC 1420 451
10.Ricky Williams MIA 1372 743
11.Travis Henry BUF 1356 335
12.Curtis Martin NYJ 1308 735
13.Edgerrin James IND 1259 1506
14.Tiki Barber NYG 1216 1860
15.Eddie George TEN 1031
16.Domanick Davis HOU 1031 976
17.Anthony Thomas CHI 1024 92
18.Kevan Barlow SF 1024 581

Ok..... so now we have.

Ladanian Tomlinson, Clinton Portis, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Tiki Barber

That's it.... that's 5 guys that ran for 1000 yards in 2003, 2004, and 2005. Domanick Davis ran for 1000 yards in 2003, as a rookie coming off the bench. he ran for 1000 yards in 2004, and missed it in 2005 by 24 yards.

I don't know how many people will run for over 1000 yards in 2006, but I'm willing to bet money, that DD will be one of them.

I tell you how many RB's rush for over 1000 yards in 2004 and 2005 and you ask me this "of the 16, and the 18, how many have done it multiple years??"

And I give you this

Of the 16, 9 have had 2 or more seasons with over 1000 yards rushing, and of the 18, 15 have had more than 2 seasons with over 1000 yards rushing.

Now you switch from back to back 1000 yards seasons to multiple 1000 yard rushing seasons, which DD hasn't even done, and wanting to know out of those RB's which ones were "scrubs" Everytime you ask for something I give it and you come back and twist everything around.

Rudi Johnson rushed for more than 1400 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Rueben Droughns rushed for more than 1200 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Willis McGahee rushed for more than 1100 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Warrick Dunn rushed for more than 1100 yards in 2004 and 2005.

These are guys I consider good, not great RB's...And you keep talking about the help of a passing game, the season Jamal Lewis rushed for over 2000 yards the Ravens had the worst passing offense in the NFL, when Curtis Martin rushed for over 1600 yards last season, the Jet's passing offense was ranked 27th in the NFL.

Vinny
06-23-2006, 10:32 AM
Alex Smith was the #1 overall pick in 2005, is he the "leader" of the 49'ers? How about Eli Manning, is he the "leader" of the Giants? Is Carson Palmer the "leader" of the Bengals? Tim Couch the lader of the Browns, oh wait he doesn't play there anymore. Andre Johnson has not played to the level in which he is paid either 3 seasons into his career, but no one says a word, because he made one pro bowl during one mediocre season he had.
Smith was a rookie...Manning in his 3rd year is expected to be a leader. Palmer? Certainly. Tim Couch wasn't and he isn't in the league. Football is a fairly unique sport as one man touches the ball on every play...makes all the decisions on where to go with the ball once the play is in his hands. If you do not have a leader at QB you better not be paying him more than anyone else.....um, like we do.

AJ went to a pro bowl because his peers voted him in. No way anyone has considered Carr a pro bowler...ever. If you can't see the difference in Carr and Johnson when it comes to who has played better at his position to date, its really not worth arguing with you since I'd have to consider you clueless.

Vinny
06-23-2006, 10:37 AM
While I understand your point, you have a couple of less than stellar examples in there. Multiple folks have pointed to the leaders of the Cowboys O as Irvin, Smith and Aikman in that order. There have also been comments over the years about Montana not being a leader in any regard other than as a good player--the same has been said of Peyton. The QB will always be the focus of the fans for leadership, but they aren't always the actual primary leader of the O.I saw Aikman as a leader...Smith and Irvin as producers. You like to compare Carr to Aikman but other than them both being good looking men and early picks...I don't see how these guys compare since Carr is a veteran with over 60 NFL starts now (more than Leftwich, Brees and Bulger) and not some rookie working off spec. Plain and simple his history is not stacking up like Aikman's did.

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 10:38 AM
I tell you how many RB's rush for over 1000 yards in 2004 and 2005 and you ask me this "of the 16, and the 18, how many have done it multiple years??"


First, I've never said that getting 1000 yards was a big deal...... I mean it is, but the thing about DD, is that he's done it for multiple years........ more than one equates to multiple years. So just saying 32 running backs in 2005 ran for 1000 yards doesn't hurt my argument......

And I give you this

Of the 16, 9 have had 2 or more seasons with over 1000 yards rushing, and of the 18, 15 have had more than 2 seasons with over 1000 yards rushing.

I'm not ignoring what you're writing..... I took that statement, and asked you which ones were scrubs...... or good but not great....... You mentioned McGahee, which I don't agree with, and someone else....... I thought the argument ended there.

Now you switch from back to back 1000 yards seasons to multiple 1000 yard rushing seasons, which DD hasn't even done, and wanting to know out of those RB's which ones were "scrubs" Everytime you ask for something I give it and you come back and twist everything around.

yeah, I'm getting spun around by my dizziyng intellect.....

Rudi Johnson rushed for more than 1400 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Rueben Droughns rushed for more than 1200 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Willis McGahee rushed for more than 1100 yards in 2004 and 2005.
Warrick Dunn rushed for more than 1100 yards in 2004 and 2005.

These are guys I consider good, not great RB's...

OK, this is what I was getting at...... these guys are good, but not great.... I could live with that..... you put DD in this category....... I could live with that...

if you are saying these guys aren't special, then I can't understand what you are talking about.

And you keep talking about the help of a passing game, the season Jamal Lewis rushed for over 2000 yards the Ravens had the worst passing offense in the NFL, when Curtis Martin rushed for over 1600 yards last season, the Jet's passing offense was ranked 27th in the NFL.

you and I both agree that Jamal Lewis and Curtis Martin are great backs.... DD being able to accomplish something similar to those two have got to mean something. Being that they went on to win the SuperBowl, I'd have to imagine that team was better than ours also...... even though it was a defensive minded team.... Same with Curtis Martin....... he's good..... we expect great backs to produce on bad teams..... Curtis got 16, my man got 1000...

I know you hate digging up all these facts for me and proving me wrong. but you're getting so good at it........... one more.

Who was the last running back to run for 1000 yards(or darn near) on a 2-14 team?? Did Barry Sanders ever do it??

or, are you saying the rest of the team doesn't matter..... great RBs will get 1400 yards regardless........

I know I'm throwing in more questions into the pot..... but i bet Curtis Martin's & Jamal Lewis first three years are very comparable to DDs....... if DDs isn't better.....

I'll be back.....

texan279
06-23-2006, 10:41 AM
Smith was a rookie...Manning in his 3rd year is expected to be a leader. Palmer? Certainly. Tim Couch wasn't and he isn't in the league.

AJ went to a pro bowl because his peers voted him in. No way anyone has considered Carr a pro bowler...ever. If you can't see the difference in Carr and Johnson when it comes to who has played better at his position to date, its really not worth arguing with you since I'd have to consider you clueless.

I am not trying to say one plays better than the other, but when people complain about Carr's pay compared to his performance, I can't help but look at what AJ makes and his performance. And when AJ made the pro bowl, sure he was voted in by his peers and the fans, but he had 1142 yards receiving that season and 6 TD's, which to me is a good season, but nothing spectacular. There were 7 WR's in the AFC who put up better numbers than AJ that season, including two WR's from Tennesse and Indy's #2 WR.

Vinny
06-23-2006, 10:42 AM
I am not trying to say one plays better than the other, but when people complain about Carr's pay compared to his performance, I can't help but look at what AJ makes and his performance. And when AJ made the pro bowl, sure he was voted in by his peers and the fans, but he had 1142 yards receiving that season and 6 TD's, which to me is a good season, but nothing spectacular. There were 7 WR's in the AFC who put up better numbers than AJ that season, including two WR's from Tennesse and Indy's #2 WR.Last time I checked AJ can't throw the ball to himself.

texan279
06-23-2006, 10:47 AM
First, I've never said that getting 1000 yards was a big deal...... I mean it is, but the thing about DD, is that he's done it for multiple years........ more than one equates to multiple years. So just saying 32 running backs in 2005 ran for 1000 yards doesn't hurt my argument......

I'm not ignoring what you're writing..... I took that statement, and asked you which ones were scrubs...... or good but not great....... You mentioned McGahee, which I don't agree with, and someone else....... I thought the argument ended there.

yeah, I'm getting spun around by my dizziyng intellect.....

OK, this is what I was getting at...... these guys are good, but not great.... I could live with that..... you put DD in this category....... I could live with that...

if you are saying these guys aren't special, then I can't understand what you are talking about.


you and I both agree that Jamal Lewis and Curtis Martin are great backs.... DD being able to accomplish something similar to those two have got to mean something. Being that they went on to win the SuperBowl, I'd have to imagine that team was better than ours also...... even though it was a defensive minded team.... Same with Curtis Martin....... he's good..... we expect great backs to produce on bad teams..... Curtis got 16, my man got 1000...

I know you hate digging up all these facts for me and proving me wrong. but you're getting so good at it........... one more.

Who was the last running back to run for 1000 yards(or darn near) on a 2-14 team?? Did Barry Sanders ever do it??

or, are you saying the rest of the team doesn't matter..... great RBs will get 1400 yards regardless........

I know I'm throwing in more questions into the pot..... but i bet Curtis Martin's & Jamal Lewis first three years are very comparable to DDs....... if DDs isn't better.....

I'll be back.....

Jamal Lewis' 1st 3 seasons (did not play 2001)
1004 attempts 4757 yards 4.7 YPC 26 TD's

Curtis Martin's 1st 3 seasons
958 attempts 3799 yards 3.9 YPC 32 TD's

Davis' 1st 3 seasons
770 attempts 3195 yards 4.1 YPC 23 TD's

texan279
06-23-2006, 10:48 AM
Last time I checked AJ can't throw the ball to himself.

So you're giving some credit to Carr for AJ's pro bowl season?

Vinny
06-23-2006, 10:51 AM
So you're giving some credit to Carr for AJ's pro bowl season?Carr isn't all horrible or all great. I see some of this hater/homer stuff and it amuses me since most reasonable people tend to see both sides...except on message boards.

Carr has struggled since he has been in the NFL. You can't say the same for AJ. I'll leave it at that.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 10:52 AM
There were 7 WR's in the AFC who put up better numbers than AJ that season, including two WR's from Tennesse and Indy's #2 WR.

That's thing though. The bulk of people felt AJ was better then Carr, while Tennesse and Indy had McNair and Manning ( and the other QB's in the AFC ).

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 10:54 AM
I saw Aikman as a leader...Smith and Irvin as producers. You like to compare Carr to Aikman but other than them both being good looking men and early picks...I don't see how these guys compare since Carr is a veteran with over 60 NFL starts now (more than Leftwich, Brees and Bulger) and not some rookie working off spec. Plain and simple his history is not stacking up like Aikman's did.

I wasn't comparing Carr and Aikman at all here. Merely talking about leadership in general and that it does not always primarily come from the QB position. I also don't think I have compared their career tracks here in over a year. Carr has clearly not developed as Aikman did after his 2nd year.

Vinny
06-23-2006, 10:55 AM
I wasn't comparing Carr and Aikman at all here. Merely talking about leadership in general and that it does not always primarily come from the QB position. I also don't think I have compared their career tracks here in over a year. Carr has clearly not developed as Aikman did after his 2nd year.Fair enough. I was probably hanging on to some old stuff.

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 11:00 AM
Ok, motivating from the sideline.......... around here, we call that cheerleading.

I'm talking about commanding games, directing plays, executing your job to the best of your ability, and comanding that same effort from the other 10 guys on the field. I'm talking about patting the guy on the but when he does good, and getting in his face when he screws up. I'm talking about being a coach on the field.

Wow, so nothing off the field counts--whatever. FYI--Irvin and Smith played the same role in the huddle. In fact, Smith and Irvin both frequently went to the HC and made suggestions on the playcalling and even game plan. If you had watched many Cowboys games you would see Irvin and Smith rallying the troops, congratulating them, getting on them, etc. on the field and on the sidelines. The coaching staff even went so far at times as to facilitate Smith's wishes in the overall game plan such as when he wanted to break Peyton's single game record on his birthday in tribute to him--he had over 170 yds in the 1st half and then got a stinger by the way. Dallas' equivalent to John McClain at the time, Skip Bayless (yes he is a clown generally, but he had very good access to the Cowboys) maintained at the time and since that Irvin was the primary leader.

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 11:05 AM
I saw Aikman as a leader...Smith and Irvin as producers.

I know you watch tons of the NFL generally, but the Cowboys were the team I grew up with and followed primarily until the advent of the Texans. I am by no means saying Aikman was not a leader, just that IMO from watching the behavior of all three the pecking order on leadership was Irvin and Smith 1st and Aikman 3rd. There are even some old clips around with Smith in the huddle saying things like OK time to drive a stake thru their hearts and run this thing up their gut all the way--at which point the coaches and Aikman signed off. Smith running with a separated shoulder against the Giants would be an example--that wasn't Norv, it was Emmitt.

Now Roger Staubach would be at the other extreme. He would even overrule Landry at times--legend has it that was how he got his starting job.

Double Barrel
06-23-2006, 11:16 AM
The crazy thing about leadership on the Cowboys 90's dynasty was that the big three seemed to have different roles. Irvin was a very vocal leader, getting in players' faces and demanding that they step up. Smith was sort of a spiritual leader, one that led by his example of excellence and determination of will. Aikman always seemed quiet, but he led on the field by making plays, keeping egos in check, and being responsible about mistakes. He never seemed to let the pressure get to him, and that alone is a leadership quality that cannot be overlooked.

I honestly think it was a tri-lateral leadership between those three, and take away one part, they probably would not have won three championships in four seasons (with a new HC to boot!).

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 11:16 AM
Ok...... Curtis Martin was quite Durable his first three years..... he only missed 4 games, and 5 starts.....

So that's 45 games, 3799 yards, 3.93 yds/carry, 32 TDs, 202 FDs,

Jamal lewis....... I don't know the details, but it looks like he sat out his entire second season. I could go through the trouble, if you really want me, to, but I think we should just agree, DDs first three years were more productive than Jamal Lewis'

Now DD.....
40 games played, 36 started. 3195 yards, 4.1 yds/carry, 23 TDs, 142 FDs

now........ I consider that comparable....... not exactly the same, not saying DD is as good as Curtis Martin....... but comparable, especially when you consider the teams they were on, when they did this...

then you add DDs contributions to the passing game....

1276 yards, 5 TDs, and 60FDs

compared to CMs....

890 yards, 5TDs, 36 FDs.......

It gets closer.

real
06-23-2006, 11:17 AM
I know you watch tons of the NFL generally, but the Cowboys were the team I grew up with and followed primarily until the advent of the Texans. I am by no means saying Aikman was not a leader, just that IMO from watching the behavior of all three the pecking order on leadership was Irvin and Smith 1st and Aikman 3rd. There are even some old clips around with Smith in the huddle saying things like OK time to drive a stake thru their hearts and run this thing up their gut all the way--at which point the coaches and Aikman signed off. Smith running with a separated shoulder against the Giants would be an example--that wasn't Norv, it was Emmitt.

Now Roger Staubach would be at the other extreme. He would even overrule Landry at times--legend has it that was how he got his starting job.

So in your opinion who is the leader on offense for the Texas ? Who do you think the leader of defense is? and the team ?

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 11:27 AM
So in your opinion who is the leader on offense for the Texas ? Who do you think the leader of defense is? and the team ?

Well I kind of hinted at this above--in four years of games (I sit on the front row field level home team side by the way) I haven't seen anyone stepping up the way I have seen on the Cowboys in particular or many other teams. I noted several times on Sharper that it was a disappointment to me that he would come off the field and sit down. I have witnessed mentoring--Glenn was constantly around the DB's talking to them and making hand gestures. Wiegert occasionally would hold a little conference. While Palmer was the OC--Carr spent much of his time on the phone--noticeably not always calm or completely agreeable discussions. You could chalk it all up to the personality of the players, but I wonder whether there wasn't an environment built which had the coaches as the only place people looked. I was glad to hear last year about Payne delivering at least one team speech. Hopefully Flannigan will be a leader for the OL. As reported the team is asking Carr to become more vocal--my suspicion is Carr will be happy to speak up more but we will see. AJ is just a quiet guy--maybe Moulds will be the vocal leader for the WR's.

Love to hear anyone else's observations.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 11:29 AM
Aikman always seemed quiet, but he led on the field by making plays, keeping egos in check, and being responsible about mistakes. He never seemed to let the pressure get to him, and that alone is a leadership quality that cannot be overlooked.

That's what I thought too, but NFL Films tried to debunk that myth a little a few weeks back. That had this Legends clip running with Aikman getting into people's faces and letting them now when they messed up ( and not being nice about it ).

Montana was different and used positive re-inforcement, like Walsh.

McMahon was completely different and worked like Ditka.. he would kick his players if they messed up. And it worked for him.