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texan279
06-23-2006, 11:34 AM
Ok...... Curtis Martin was quite Durable his first three years..... he only missed 4 games, and 5 starts.....

So that's 45 games, 3799 yards, 3.93 yds/carry, 32 TDs, 202 FDs,

Jamal lewis....... I don't know the details, but it looks like he sat out his entire second season. I could go through the trouble, if you really want me, to, but I think we should just agree, DDs first three years were more productive than Jamal Lewis'

Now DD.....
40 games played, 36 started. 3195 yards, 4.1 yds/carry, 23 TDs, 142 FDs

now........ I consider that comparable....... not exactly the same, not saying DD is as good as Curtis Martin....... but comparable, especially when you consider the teams they were on, when they did this...

then you add DDs contributions to the passing game....

1276 yards, 5 TDs, and 60FDs

compared to CMs....

890 yards, 5TDs, 36 FDs.......

It gets closer.

I posted it already, I excluded Jamal's second season since he did not play a snap...DD isn't even close in production to Jamal Lewis in their 1st 3 seasons...Lewis' 1st 2 seasons would compare to DD's first 3 seasons...

Jamal Lewis' 1st 3 seasons (did not play 2001)
1004 attempts 4757 yards 4.7 YPC 26 TD's

Curtis Martin's 1st 3 seasons
958 attempts 3799 yards 3.9 YPC 32 TD's

Davis' 1st 3 seasons
770 attempts 3195 yards 4.1 YPC 23 TD's

Lucky
06-23-2006, 11:35 AM
...just that IMO from watching the behavior of all three the pecking order on leadership was Irvin and Smith 1st and Aikman 3rd.
That's how I saw it. In '92, I lived about a half mile from the Cowboys training camp at St. Edward's University in Austin. I'd walk my dog to the practices and watch over the chain link fence. Irvin was the man, then. He get on receivers for dropping balls, yell at DBs for not covering, and get in guys grill if they made a penalty. But, he was also encouraging. In the 100 F heat, Irvin did a great job off keeping the guys up for the practices.

Double Barrel
06-23-2006, 11:39 AM
That's what I thought too, but NFL Films tried to debunk that myth a little a few weeks back. That had this Legends clip running with Aikman getting into people's faces and letting them now when they messed up ( and not being nice about it ).

Interesting. :hmmm: I love NFL Films, and consider them to be as much as an authority on pro football as anyone else (next to actual coaches and players). They've got access, and most of the time they let the film do the talking.

I wonder why the regular media never really seemed to portray Aikman as an intense player? He always came off as a good ol' boy, and very laid back.

I'll definitely have to look out for that Legends clip. Sounds interesting.

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 11:49 AM
I posted it already, I excluded Jamal's second season since he did not play a snap...DD isn't even close in production to Jamal Lewis in their 1st 3 seasons...Lewis' 1st 2 seasons would compare to DD's first 3 seasons...

Jamal Lewis' 1st 3 seasons (did not play 2001)
1004 attempts 4757 yards 4.7 YPC 26 TD's

Curtis Martin's 1st 3 seasons
958 attempts 3799 yards 3.9 YPC 32 TD's

Davis' 1st 3 seasons
770 attempts 3195 yards 4.1 YPC 23 TD's

no..... you'll have to count the 2001 season, unless there was a good reason why he didn't play... and I can't think of one that would alleviate that season, as Davis is tagged with being "injury prone"

and if you're going to count Jamal's fourth season, you'll have to count DDs, which hadn't come yet...... and...... you really should count the contributions made as a reciever as well. But I'm fine if you don't want to..... we don't have to. I still think the comparison favorable to DD.... if you count Jamal's first three years to DDs..... or if you count Jamal's first 3 productive years to DDs production, including recieving yards....... it's comparable.

So by your standards, DD is a great back.

texan279
06-23-2006, 11:57 AM
no..... you'll have to count the 2001 season, unless there was a good reason why he didn't play... and I can't think of one that would alleviate that season, as Davis is tagged with being "injury prone"

and if you're going to count Jamal's fourth season, you'll have to count DDs, which hadn't come yet...... and...... you really should count the contributions made as a reciever as well. But I'm fine if you don't want to..... we don't have to. I still think the comparison favorable to DD.... if you count Jamal's first three years to DDs..... or if you count Jamal's first 3 productive years to DDs production, including recieving yards....... it's comparable.

So by your standards, DD is a great back.

Lewis missed 2001 because he was on IR the entire season with a knee injury. Lewis is one of only 5 backs in NFL history to rush for over 2000 yards and to say DD compares to him is insane. And why would I include the 2001 season when he didn't even play a down? I counted his 4th season because it was actually his 3rd season he played in.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 12:05 PM
I wonder why the regular media never really seemed to portray Aikman as an intense player? He always came off as a good ol' boy, and very laid back.

I saw it a week ago during the last Carr thread :)

It was running on the NFL Networks Real audio clips... so I am sure it will rotate again.

They specifically addressed the the good ole boy question and tried to debunk as many myths about him and the Cowboys has possible.

The two main points that I remember were about his accuracy and leadership role in the team. He has pin point accuracy that is often over looked.
---

On a different note though: You still need to be careful about NFL Films. You can edit film to say just about anything you want. Sabol has favourites too and admits to it on occasion. I have a Treasures disk where he apologizes to Namath for cutting Super Bowl III to look like the Colts ( Sabol's team ) were still in the game until the last few minutes.. which was far from the truth of the matter. The Jets had them beat in the first quarter and knew it. It's funny stuff. I think Namath is still miffed at them for that... I think that episode ran on TV for 30 years! before Sabol corrected himself.

TwinSisters
06-23-2006, 12:09 PM
So by your standards, DD is a great back.

Why are you guys leaving the tackles and guards out of the discussion?

texan279
06-23-2006, 12:10 PM
Why are you guys leaving the tackles and guards out of the discussion?

We were having a discussion earlier in the thread about Carr and he brought Davis into the discussion...

TheCD
06-23-2006, 12:17 PM
Do you seriously believe Michael Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, & Thurman Thomas were their team leaders, and not their QB??

Have you ever played football?? the QB is the leader. (that's a period in case you didn't see it).


I've lived near the Dallas area all of my life, and one thing that I know for certain is that MICHAEL IRVIN was the team leader. Ask any sportswriter and player on that team. Troy Aikman himself has admitted that fact. Look at any of the NFL's Greatest Games involving the Coybows (Especially the Cowboys vs. Niners games)...it's ALWAYS Michael Irvin pumping the team up before the game and motivating them when they were down. Troy Aikman's "role" was to keep a balance between the "Triplets". Of course, that's not to diminish his role on the field...but everyone who knows ANYTHING about Cowboys football knows that Irvin was the leader.

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 12:44 PM
Lewis missed 2001 because he was on IR the entire season with a knee injury. Lewis is one of only 5 backs in NFL history to rush for over 2000 yards and to say DD compares to him is insane. And why would I include the 2001 season when he didn't even play a down? I counted his 4th season because it was actually his 3rd season he played in.


If it were like Hasselbeck, or Aaron Brooks, where they were back ups to BretFavre, and didn't get a chance to play thier first year, then yeah you can not count that year. But if he got injured in any way related to football activities, then you have to count it.

heck, what would've happened had DD not been injured?? we don't know....
What is going to happen in DDs fourtht year?? we don't know.

DD never rushed for 2000 yards, and more than likely never will.

tell you what.... we can make a little side bet, you name the ante.... I'll bet you DD will out rush Jamal Lewis in '06..... no excuses.... straight up, whoever has the most rushing yards wins..... recieving yards don't count.... return yards don't count....... we're not worried about touchdowns.... straight up rushing yards.... how 'bout it?? Little ole DD vs the Great Jamal Lewis....

chuckm
06-23-2006, 12:45 PM
By the time this thread winds down, we will actually know if he's on the right track ....

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 12:46 PM
I've lived near the Dallas area all of my life, and one thing that I know for certain is that MICHAEL IRVIN was the team leader. Ask any sportswriter and player on that team. Troy Aikman himself has admitted that fact. Look at any of the NFL's Greatest Games involving the Coybows (Especially the Cowboys vs. Niners games)...it's ALWAYS Michael Irvin pumping the team up before the game and motivating them when they were down. Troy Aikman's "role" was to keep a balance between the "Triplets". Of course, that's not to diminish his role on the field...but everyone who knows ANYTHING about Cowboys football knows that Irvin was the leader.


OK, maybe we've got a little language barrier thing going on here....... I'm saying team leader, and you guys are talking cheerleader....

He was in charge....... Troy Aikman was in charge of the offense, and he led the team down the field....

Vinny
06-23-2006, 12:46 PM
Troy Aikman's "role" was to keep a balance between the "Triplets".
This is what leaders do....lead.

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 01:28 PM
OK, maybe we've got a little language barrier thing going on here....... I'm saying team leader, and you guys are talking cheerleader....

He was in charge....... Troy Aikman was in charge of the offense, and he led the team down the field....

OK, now this has become a joke. Just say--the QB is the only person who can be a leader in my definition and be done with it. By the way--as for being in charge, Aikman has said on air that he wasn't even allowed to call audibles for several seasons under JJ, not because they didn't trust him, but because that wasn't the system. That pretty much takes him out of the "in charge" equation any more than the other guys on O and what multiple people here have been describing with Irvin and Smith.

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 01:30 PM
This is what leaders do....lead.

Having a hard time figuring out where you are weighing in--is it Aikman was A leader or that Aikman was the primary leader?

Vinny
06-23-2006, 01:42 PM
Having a hard time figuring out where you are weighing in--is it Aikman was A leader or that Aikman was the primary leader?Pretty simple. He minimized Aikman's role as "to keep a balance between the "Triplets"." Isn't this what leadership is all about? A good leader isn't always the most productive person...it is the person who brings the best out of his more talented teammates, or puts them in a position to win. Simply being productive isn't how I define leadership. Aikman was aces on third down conversions late in the game. If he locked onto Irving every play, ran out of bounds with the ball, sacked himself and couldn't convert 3rd downs I probably would not consider him much of a leader either....but he brought out the best in the players around him. Something Carr has yet to do in 60 games.

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 01:52 PM
Pretty simple. He minimized Aikman's role as "to keep a balance between the "Triplets"." Isn't this what leadership is all about? A good leader isn't always the most productive person...it is the person who brings the best out of his more talented teammates, or puts them in a position to win. Simply being productive isn't how I define leadership. Aikman was aces on third down conversions late in the game. If he locked onto Irving every play, ran out of bounds with the ball, sacked himself and couldn't convert 3rd downs I probably would not consider him much of a leader either....but he brought out the best in the players around him. Something Carr has yet to do in 60 games.

OK, I wasn't actually refering to the tripletts quote or Carr, but to the general hierarchy of leadership as I think the Cowboys had at least three, specifically each of the tripletts.

For the record, IMO Aikman is underrated--he was clutch and upped his game when needed--he had a fantastic post-season record and was a savvy pin-point accurate QB. Play certainly is a form of leadership, but hey, all the tripletts had that as all are hall of fame bound.

Lucky
06-23-2006, 01:58 PM
He was in charge....... Troy Aikman was in charge of the offense, and he led the team down the field....
Behind one of the greatest offensive lines, and in front of one of the greatest running backs, in NFL history.

Winning teams have leaders. Losing teams don't. You don't "lead" your team to a loss. When the Texans win, David Carr and the rest of the Texans will be "leaders".

HJam72
06-23-2006, 02:22 PM
IMHO, all of this talk about leadership by a QB is a moot point. The reason I feel that way is because it is very difficult for any player, QB or otherwise, to be a leader when they are not first successfull producers on the field. Carr could not be that most of the time because his O-line was a joke in the NFL and he had only one good receiver. This is not to say that Carr was never part of the problem, but it started with the O-line and terrible pass blocking, which has not been corrected yet--we have yet to go out and prove that we are a good pass blocking team.

As a leader, I suppose the biggest thing Carr would need to do would be to get on to his O-line, which I do remember him doing once in a game (well, sort of) and he was somewhat berated for doing so. When one attempts to get good players to play better, they are said to be a leader, but nothing can be said to bad players without looking like a whiner, unless you are a coach. A QB, in particular, will especially look bad when complaining about the pass blocking.

Kubiak wants Carr to be more vocal, but I'm sure that Kubiak is fully expecting Carr to: 1) have more time in the pocket 2) have a better receiving core 3) take advantage of 1 and 2, and 4) THEN be more vocal and show leadership qualities. I have no doubt that 1 and 2 will be improvements (hopefully a lot of it) and we will see if Carr does 3 and 4.

How vocal was Carr in college? Was he a leader or just superstar performer? I'm not sure if he really NEEDS to be a leader, but I'd like to know if he was one in college. My wild guess is that he probably was.

TexansLucky13
06-23-2006, 02:24 PM
Carr could not be that most of the time because his O-line was a joke

Agreed. How could he be a leader if he couldnt even stay on his feet longer than 5 seconds?

chuckm
06-23-2006, 02:24 PM
IMHO, all of this talk about leadership by a QB is a moot point. The reason I feel that way is because it is very difficult for any player, QB or otherwise, to be a leader when they are not first successfull producers on the field. Carr could not be that most of the time because his O-line was a joke in the NFL and he had only one good receiver. This is not to say that Carr was never part of the problem, but it started with the O-line and terrible pass blocking, which has not been corrected yet--we have yet to go out and prove that we are a good pass blocking team.

As a leader, I suppose the biggest thing Carr would need to do would be to get on to his O-line, which I do remember him doing once in a game (well, sort of) and he was somewhat berated for doing so. When one attempts to get good players to play better, they are said to be a leader, but nothing can be said to bad players without looking like a whiner, unless you are a coach. A QB, in particular, will especially look bad when complaining about the pass blocking.

Kubiak wants Carr to be more vocal, but I'm sure that Kubiak is fully expecting Carr to: 1) have more time in the pocket 2) have a better receiving core 3) take advantage of 1 and 2, and 4) THEN be more vocal and show leadership qualities. I have no doubt that 1 and 2 will be improvements (hopefully a lot of it) and we will see if Carr does 3 and 4.


well said

GP
06-23-2006, 02:38 PM
Pretty simple. He minimized Aikman's role as "to keep a balance between the "Triplets"." Isn't this what leadership is all about? A good leader isn't always the most productive person...it is the person who brings the best out of his more talented teammates, or puts them in a position to win. Simply being productive isn't how I define leadership. Aikman was aces on third down conversions late in the game. If he locked onto Irving every play, ran out of bounds with the ball, sacked himself and couldn't convert 3rd downs I probably would not consider him much of a leader either....but he brought out the best in the players around him. Something Carr has yet to do in 60 games.

Yeah, Vinny...how can Carr ever be a leader when he can't get the best out of his more talented teammates (Bradford, Gaffney, Miller, etc.)? Carr hasn't played with (1) Qaulity coaching, (2) Quality gameplanning, (3) Quality playcalling and in-game adjustments, and (4) Quality teammates.

Kinda' funny how Charlie Weiss comes into Notre Dame and has that team completely turned around and in the hunt for a top bowl bid, eh? Just goes to show that a lot of teams' success is predicated on a lot of variables coming together at the right time. Is all the past failures supposed to be Carr's fault? Nope. But it sure is being touted by a few around here. Amazing.

Aikman didn't lock onto Irvin or need to run out of bounds, etc., becuase he had Moose, Harper, Emmitt, and Novacek...and he had that little magic pill called "Quality coaching/gameplanning/playcalling."

Andre Johnson was/is the only player on our team the past few seasons who qualifies as even a POTENTIAL talent comparable to all those guys that Aikman had at his disposal on those oh-so-"key" 3rd down situations you claim has made Aikman such a superior talent or leader.

The grass is always greener over the septic tank. Somtimes just being in the right place at the right time is worth more than all the water and man-made fertilizer in the world. That's how I view Tom Brady. He is a talented QB...but he was soooooo in the right place at the right time. And I hope that kind of magic is waiting for us with the arrival of Kubiak and the players we just acquired this offseason.

TK_Gamer
06-23-2006, 02:43 PM
IMHO, all of this talk about leadership by a QB is a moot point. The reason I feel that way is because it is very difficult for any player, QB or otherwise, to be a leader when they are not first successfull producers on the field. Carr could not be that most of the time because his O-line was a joke in the NFL and he had only one good receiver. This is not to say that Carr was never part of the problem, but it started with the O-line and terrible pass blocking, which has not been corrected yet--we have yet to go out and prove that we are a good pass blocking team.

As a leader, I suppose the biggest thing Carr would need to do would be to get on to his O-line, which I do remember him doing once in a game (well, sort of) and he was somewhat berated for doing so. When one attempts to get good players to play better, they are said to be a leader, but nothing can be said to bad players without looking like a whiner, unless you are a coach. A QB, in particular, will especially look bad when complaining about the pass blocking.

Kubiak wants Carr to be more vocal, but I'm sure that Kubiak is fully expecting Carr to: 1) have more time in the pocket 2) have a better receiving core 3) take advantage of 1 and 2, and 4) THEN be more vocal and show leadership qualities. I have no doubt that 1 and 2 will be improvements (hopefully a lot of it) and we will see if Carr does 3 and 4.

How vocal was Carr in college? Was he a leader or just superstar performer? I'm not sure if he really NEEDS to be a leader, but I'd like to know if he was one in college. My wild guess is that he probably was.

best post ive seen in a Carr thread in quite awhile. my hat's off to you

HJam72
06-23-2006, 02:43 PM
The grass is always greener over the septic tank. Somtimes just being in the right place at the right time is worth more than all the water and man-made fertilizer in the world. That's how I view Tom Brady. He is a talented QB...but he was soooooo in the right place at the right time. And I hope that kind of magic is waiting for us with the arrival of Kubiak and the players we just acquired this offseason.

This team needs more crap! :tease:

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 02:46 PM
How vocal was Carr in college? Was he a leader or just superstar performer? I'm not sure if he really NEEDS to be a leader, but I'd like to know if he was one in college. My wild guess is that he probably was.

Tough leader who will take a crunching hit and play with pain (see 2002 Akron contest)

His composure and poise allow him to rally the team from behind

Link (http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/leftwich_byron)

HPF: How do you feel Carr has handled the pressure this year, from the early season upsets to the SI cover to the Heisman race?

Warszawski: Carr is not the reason Fresno State blew its chance for a BCS bowl. He actually handled the swirl around him and the Bulldogs remarkably well. If Dave has a fault, it's that he's too nice and too accommodating. He's also shown a lot of class. The only reason he isn't a Heisman front-runner is because Fresno State lost those two games. A lot of people would be bitter, but not him.

Link (http://www.houstonprofootball.com/draft/2002/bee.html)

That's what I found from back at the time--maybe someone else has more sources.

GP
06-23-2006, 02:51 PM
Wasn't it the Atlanta game when Carr had to come back in (Banks got hurt on a play) and so Carr pulls down the ball and sprints down the field for a long gain on a critical conversion opportunity...and then he gets driven into the turf by a tackler (instead of sliding or running out of bounds) and then re-injures his shoulder...writhing in pain as the stadium is going nuts for his effort?

Takes a lot sack for someone to come in and be willing to take that risk.

The guy's going to be picked up in fantasy leagues by about week 4.

HJam72
06-23-2006, 02:54 PM
"He's a great quarterback. He moves around real well, makes all the throws and plays with a lot of confidence. He was a lot of fun to watch ... and I anticipate him being a top pick in next year's draft. It gives you a really good idea of what kind of player he's going to be. It showed me that he's got not only great talent but great heart. He never quits, always keeps fighting." -- John Elway, who attended the Colorado State game where Carr directed a thrilling fourth quarter comeback.

"Carr was 21-of-34 passing for 340 yards and four TD passes in his excellent game against Oregon State. Carr was on target with intermediate passes and long passes and showed touch on shorter passes. He is a tremendous leader who really inspires the Bulldogs." -- ESPN Draft Expert Mel Kiper, Jr.

I got these quotes from: http://www.geocities.com/davidcarrpage/updates.html

I don't know if Mel Kiper is someone who's opinion really matters or not, but that is the only quote I know of that talks about Carr's leadership qualities from back then. I've used those two quotes before sometime back and there's others on the page.

edit: Sorry, that link takes you to the main page (somehow), instead of the page with the quotes. You have to click on the "Honors" section in the upper left corner to see the page with the quotes.

Kaiser Toro
06-23-2006, 02:54 PM
It appears that Carr is the greatest QB who ever played that had a bad offensive line or he is the most overpaid QB whose perceived greatness could not be realized in the NFL, but would have been better suited for a smaller college or the CFL.

He falls somewhere in between and therefore it does not justify the money we pay him in my opinion. I trust Kubiak's evaluation will be spot on or his tenure will be short lived here.

Being great is a subjective result. Having potential is a prerequisite for any prospect.

HJam72
06-23-2006, 02:56 PM
It appears that Carr is the greatest QB who ever played that had a bad offensive line or he is the most overpaid QB whose perceived greatness could not be realized in the NFL, but would have been better suited for a smaller college or the CFL.

He falls somewhere in between and therefore it does not justify the money we pay him in my opinion. I trust Kubiak's evaluation will be spot on or his tenure will be short lived here.

Being great is a subjective result. Having potential is a prerequisite for any prospect.

Oh, I agree that he is getting overpaid, because he hasn't proven that he's worth it yet. I just think he will prove it soon. We shall see.

TexansLucky13
06-23-2006, 03:04 PM
Oh, I agree that he is getting overpaid, because he hasn't proven that he's worth it yet. I just think he will prove it soon. We shall see.

That is the viewpoint we fight to protect on Carr threads, Mr. HJam. I share your sentiments.

infantrycak
06-23-2006, 03:15 PM
Wasn't it the Atlanta game when Carr had to come back in (Banks got hurt on a play) and so Carr pulls down the ball and sprints down the field for a long gain on a critical conversion opportunity...and then he gets driven into the turf by a tackler (instead of sliding or running out of bounds) and then re-injures his shoulder...writhing in pain as the stadium is going nuts for his effort?

Yes, it was the '03 Atlanta game--36 yd run on 3rd and 5. Oddly, that game gets credited sometimes as a Banks win even though when he went out of the game at half time we were down 7 to 3.

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 03:31 PM
Oh, I agree that he is getting overpaid, because he hasn't proven that he's worth it yet. I just think he will prove it soon. We shall see.


That is the viewpoint we fight to protect on Carr threads, Mr. HJam. I share your sentiments.

Umm.... I feel exactly the same way.

Double Barrel
06-23-2006, 04:28 PM
Oh, I agree that he is getting overpaid, because he hasn't proven that he's worth it yet. I just think he will prove it soon. We shall see.

All Carr threads should end with "we shall see", IMO. :ok:

(And hopefully this will the last offseason of such grand uncertainty regarding DC!)

bigbrewster2000
06-23-2006, 07:13 PM
of the 16, and the 18, how many have done it multiple years??



& I'm saying it isn't the same method, when one guy is being compared to his contemporaries, and another is being compared to guys who played a totally different game, with a different mindset..... when you could take 6 years to develop. & those guys with those stats still possessed intangibles, that led their teams to success we have not seen, in their first four years..... we're still trying to get a winning season......

Not all David's fault, I'm not saying that.... but we need major improvement from the QB position. It would be nice, if David can be the QB to provide that improvement.

But if we think David Carr played the best he possibly could, behind the line that we gave him, and if we expect him to play at the same level behind a better line..... then we're in trouble.



Bigbrewster2000..... nice to meet you mr"newspokespersonfortheHoustonTexansfans"

my point was clearly stated in my first post.... David Carr is improving. we had the worst offensive line in the history of football. We had the 2nd(I think) worse defense against the run..... and pretty darn bad against the pass.... but our most improved player thus far..... is David Carr.

Gary Kubiak said David caused 20 out of 68 sacks..... 29%. Gary Kubiak said he needs to teach David how to get out of the huddle, and to the line quicker.. Gary Kubiak has said that he wants to teach Carr to look for the second and third option..... not all in this article, but since he's been here. In this article, he has David improving his footwork, his accuracy, and his arm.... he is also challenging David to be a vocal leader.......

David needed to improve his play.... he was not the best he could've/should've been in 2005....


Actually, I am going to backpedal on my comment to you Thunder, I somehow mixed your post and one of the billion bashers on here. For some reason I miss read what you were saying and thought you were still trying to bash him after those comments in that article. So yes you have made it clear and while you were right it does seem that there are so many that don't want to give him a chance still. And, for the record FOR EVERYONE else 8 mil over 3 years for a QB is not that much money. Also I have been out of town so I am not caught up on the last several pages of this post but I bet that it is more of the norm.

hollywood_texan
06-23-2006, 07:19 PM
All Carr threads should end with "we shall see", IMO. :ok:



I concur.

Man Law?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/hollywood_texan/02_CR_News_MillerLite.jpg

bayoudreamn
06-23-2006, 08:05 PM
what are you saying??

that Carr is a bust??

or that this is hate mail??

I'm just criticizing the guy, I don't think it's gone overboard or anything. If 279 wants to start an AJ thread, I'll get in on that one too.

That reply was about VY. So, no it was not about Carr. Why....did you imagine that it was?

bayoudreamn
06-23-2006, 08:10 PM
All Carr threads should end with "we shall see", IMO. :ok:

(And hopefully this will the last offseason of such grand uncertainty regarding DC!)

Shouldn't all Texans threads end the same way?

hollywood_texan
06-23-2006, 08:16 PM
Shouldn't all Texans threads end the same way?

Once again...

Man Law?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/hollywood_texan/02_CR_News_MillerLite.jpg

bigbrewster2000
06-23-2006, 08:18 PM
Once again...

Man Law?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/hollywood_texan/02_CR_News_MillerLite.jpg
Yes......we shall see. AND for the record I laughed out loud when I saw Burt At the bottom of the post. Great commercials.

thunderkyss
06-23-2006, 09:47 PM
That reply was about VY. So, no it was not about Carr. Why....did you imagine that it was?


I thought you were drawing a parallel between David Carr and threads like this, and what would happen if Vince were to bust, and his fans would critisize him, like the fans are critisizing Carr right now.....

So I was asking the questions for you to clarify....

So your remark had nothing to do with Carr, where did the Vince hanging out on message boards, and getting hate mail on message boards coming from??

Are you David Carr, and are you getting hate mail off this message board??

just asking for clarification........

In case you are in fact David Carr....... love your game man....... I'm your biggest fan........ can you sign my T-shirt?? :redtowel:

GP
06-23-2006, 11:17 PM
Yes, it was the '03 Atlanta game--36 yd run on 3rd and 5. Oddly, that game gets credited sometimes as a Banks win even though when he went out of the game at half time we were down 7 to 3.

It's plays like that, IMO, that stick out and say "This guy can play."

It's the juke near the goal line against New Orleans (leaving the defender looking silly), and then waltzing into the end zone. What an awesome move.

It's the leap over the top against the Jags, winning the game.

It's "rocking up" and throwing some clutch passes against the Cowboys during his rookie season, causing Jerry Jones to get facial re-construction surgery...and giving us a great memory for all of Texans history.

There's more than that, but those are the ones that stick out in my mind: Plays that I don't think you'll see on a Tim Couch highlight reel.

Double Barrel
06-23-2006, 11:30 PM
I concur.

Man Law?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/hollywood_texan/02_CR_News_MillerLite.jpg

LMAO! :thumbup Agreed. Man's Law rule.

Shouldn't all Texans threads end the same way?

Perhaps. But Carr threads tend to get a little more vindictive than most (like VY threads), so they need a bit more resolution than regular threads. And it's the same ol' arguments going around in circles...for four years...so "we shall see" is more of a statement that some answers should be forthcoming this season.

WE SHALL SEE*





*(in accordance with Man's Law regarding Carr thread posts) ;)

thunderkyss
06-24-2006, 01:14 AM
This thread started out with me saying..... "look Kubiak says Carr is improving in all the things we said he needs to improve on"

Then everybody(hyperbole) acts like I kicked them in the nuts.....

texan279
06-24-2006, 01:48 AM
After posting this in a thread you started called "I love David Carr" in the end of April...

He doesn't make constant mistakes...... he doesn't demand to sit when he's obviously getting his but beat...... when we don't have a chance to win...... no, he's running for first downs, head first trying to get his team back in the game.

I know I gave my boy a hard time the last few months.... & I'm sorry. I had to take extreme measures, to make sure this team didn't draft Reggie Bush....... nothing against Reggie.... but we needed to clean our stadium of that vile crew that cheered our Houston Texans to lose........ the "Bush Bowl" fans.

Now that the Texans are doing the smart thing, and drafting Mario Williams with the #1 overall, I'm done with that.
You mess with David, and your messing with me. He's my boy, and I got his back.

You start the thread we are in now to tell us you were right about what you said Carr needs to work on (arm, accuracy, footwork), which all QB's work on anyway it's not like it's a secret. So what's the point in this post??
Just to say...... we were right....

Then you say I understand being a fan, and sticking with your guy... but some of you here are just blinded by your loyalty, to call a duck a duck.....

I just really don't understand your stance at all...

thunderkyss
06-24-2006, 02:02 AM
After posting this in a thread you started called "I love David Carr"



You start the thread we are in now to tell us you were right about what you said Carr needs to work on (arm, accuracy, footwork), which all QB's work on anyway it's not like it's a secret.

Then you say

I just really don't understand your stance at all...

would it surprise you that if I told you I'm also a Joey Harrington & an Aaron Brooks fan??

You tell me those guys have problems, and I'll say"Yeah... that's true, but they've also got........." depending who we'll be talking about I'll tell you what I like about him.....

I'm not going to make excuses about why he isn't living up to his potential(which is pretty much the definition of a bust..... in relation to time in the league, not quality of OLine)......

Most QBs in this ERA, don't get 4 years..... Vince won't get 4 years.

Oh yeah... I was a Quincy supporter as well.......... before the drug thing. I do have my limits.

Vinny
06-24-2006, 02:05 AM
It's plays like that, IMO, that stick out and say "This guy can play."

It's the juke near the goal line against New Orleans (leaving the defender looking silly), and then waltzing into the end zone. What an awesome move.

It's the leap over the top against the Jags, winning the game.this is really sad. The play vs Atlanta was a run with no defenders near him and he wasn't even smart enough to get down on the ground with his bad shoulder. The goal line "juke" wasn't anything but a one yard bootleg. The one yard leap...well, that was a one yard leap. These don't show me he can 'play'. It shows me he can run when not covered or run for a yard on the goal line.

beerlover
06-24-2006, 02:10 AM
this is really sad. The play vs Atlanta was a run with no defenders near him and he wasn't even smart enough to get down on the ground with his bad shoulder. The goal line "juke" wasn't anything but a one yard bootleg. The one yard leap...well, that was a one yard leap. These don't show me he can 'play'. It shows me he can run when not covered or run for a yard on the goal line.

not all aboard with Carr in 06-07 are we now :confused:

Vinny
06-24-2006, 02:14 AM
not all aboard with Carr in 06-07 are we now :confused:I guess I'm not blown away with one yard runs and a scramble when left uncovered.

beerlover
06-24-2006, 02:23 AM
I guess I'm not blown away with one yard runs and a scramble when left uncovered.

you had better adjust otherwise its gonna be a long, long, long season

we have had this discussion, I was also on board with selecting Vince Young, but they did not....... get over it.......Carr is an upgrade of Plummer nothing more nothing less and if the Texans are going to go as deep into the playoffs as Denver did with Jake the focus will be defensive :fireball:

texan279
06-24-2006, 03:02 AM
this is really sad. The play vs Atlanta was a run with no defenders near him and he wasn't even smart enough to get down on the ground with his bad shoulder. The goal line "juke" wasn't anything but a one yard bootleg. The one yard leap...well, that was a one yard leap. These don't show me he can 'play'. It shows me he can run when not covered or run for a yard on the goal line.

As much as I defend Carr I agree with your take here, those plays were nothing special at all. I could have probably made that 1st down against Atlanta with my 2 bum knees :crutch: .

TwinSisters
06-24-2006, 03:18 AM
Once again...

Man Law?

That's pretty good bringing that up.

NO thanks Hollywood, I ain't into that.

http://www.manlaws.com/

EDIT:

Actually after reviewing the Square Table film, I think I have I-dentified Carr's leadership style. His play is so ambiguous that it brings everyone together to try and figure it out. Thank you Burt. That's the best thing you have done since the Little Whorehouse.

Vinny
06-24-2006, 03:43 AM
you had better adjust otherwise its gonna be a long, long, long season

we have had this discussion, I was also on board with selecting Vince Young, but they did not....... get over it.......Carr is an upgrade of Plummer nothing more nothing less and if the Texans are going to go as deep into the playoffs as Denver did with Jake the focus will be defensive :fireball:I never mentioned Vince Young. You get over putting words in my mouth.

hollywood_texan
06-24-2006, 07:22 AM
NO thanks Hollywood, I ain't into that.

http://www.manlaws.com/



That is hilarious!!!!

TEXANRED
06-24-2006, 07:58 AM
That is hilarious!!!!
My best friend is always breaking man law in regards to leaving your beer. He always takes his, and if I leave mine, he drinks it all by the next day!

There has to be some sort of man court, man cops, and man jail for breaking man law. His punishment should be 3 weekends of doing whatever his wife wants, whenever she wants and is not allowed to complain about it. Complaining would result in one month of weekends spent at the in-laws.

thunderkyss
06-24-2006, 09:37 AM
I wish I could remember those games with such detail....... I'm only 34, and I have a hard time remembering what I said yesterday.

TwinSisters
06-24-2006, 10:41 AM
My best friend is always breaking man law in regards to leaving your beer. He always takes his, and if I leave mine, he drinks it all by the next day!

There has to be some sort of man court, man cops, and man jail for breaking man law. His punishment should be 3 weekends of doing whatever his wife wants, whenever she wants and is not allowed to complain about it. Complaining would result in one month of weekends spent at the in-laws.

Men of the square table,

If your best friend is a repeat offender of the said offenses, then he should be marked as such:

Look cute while rooting for your favorite team by wearing this Houston Texans David Carr girls jersey.

http://store.houstontexans.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2128481&cp=2237490&page=6&doVSearch=no&clickid=mainnav_gear_txt&pageBucket=0&parentPage=family

That'll straighten him out. Or at least it will be out.

Besides complaining about the wife is already against man law. I think.

chuckm
06-24-2006, 11:34 AM
http://www.manlaws.com/



the old man writing down the laws at the end cracks me up

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 11:37 AM
the old man writing down the laws at the end cracks me up

that dude carckes me up, kudos to the director for that shot at the end

GP
06-24-2006, 02:29 PM
As much as I defend Carr I agree with your take here, those plays were nothing special at all. I could have probably made that 1st down against Atlanta with my 2 bum knees :crutch: .

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

NOW the crazy talk is really coming down.

"I can do that!" :pigfly:

Geez........

GP
06-24-2006, 02:34 PM
this is really sad. The play vs Atlanta was a run with no defenders near him and he wasn't even smart enough to get down on the ground with his bad shoulder. The goal line "juke" wasn't anything but a one yard bootleg. The one yard leap...well, that was a one yard leap. These don't show me he can 'play'. It shows me he can run when not covered or run for a yard on the goal line.

Man, you are soooooooooooo bitter about Carr.

Oh well, he's the QB and I bet he's going to play better this year.

Double Barrel
06-24-2006, 02:50 PM
Man, you are soooooooooooo bitter about Carr.

Oh well, he's the QB and I bet he's going to play better this year.

WE SHALL SEE :ok: We all hope the same thing!

Vinny
06-24-2006, 02:58 PM
Man, you are soooooooooooo bitter about Carr.

Oh well, he's the QB and I bet he's going to play better this year.Search my posts. I'm not bitter just because you say I'm bitter.

I could provide examples of 'great QB play' from Carr but pointing out those plays as proof he is a heck of a QB was weak....one yard runs or a scramble where there is nothing but open tundra aren't what I'd consider great examples of superior play. Just because I comment on his game doesn't mean I'm bitter about anything. I just comment on the players honestly. I'm not much of a sunshine pumper. If I saw great play, I'd say it.

Hulk75
06-24-2006, 03:30 PM
Search my posts. I'm not bitter just because you say I'm bitter.

I could provide examples of 'great QB play' from Carr but pointing out those plays as proof he is a heck of a QB was weak....one yard runs or a scramble where there is nothing but open tundra aren't what I'd consider great examples of superior play. Just because I comment on his game doesn't mean I'm bitter about anything. I just comment on the players honestly. I'm not much of a sunshine pumper. If I saw great play, I'd say it.
Yea man Vinny is not bitter about Carr at all infact I think that he hopes Carr blows everyones doors off this year. Vinny atleast unlike some people have constructive things to say about the guy, instead of just dogging him 24 7.

And if any of you have a questin about Carr I will be more then happy to set you straight.:cool:

Vinny
06-24-2006, 03:38 PM
I think DC had miserable coaching and I also think that he does what he is told....probably almost to a fault. I don't have any doubt he will play better this year. I could point to the Minnesota game or the Titan game over a year ago or even the Cards game...or the beautiful pass to Mathis in the end zone if I wanted to shine a light on his good stuff....but scrambles as a glimpse of his greatness was just weak.

Hulk75
06-24-2006, 03:48 PM
this is really sad. The play vs Atlanta was a run with no defenders near him and he wasn't even smart enough to get down on the ground with his bad shoulder. The goal line "juke" wasn't anything but a one yard bootleg. The one yard leap...well, that was a one yard leap. These don't show me he can 'play'. It shows me he can run when not covered or run for a yard on the goal line.
HOLD ON A SECOND BRO..................:)

Sorry he can not run a 4.2 40 and shake every living thing in the world, but do not for a second down size those plays, he made a play when he had to, when people counted on him.

So honestly tell me that you were not up cheering for the "leap", and the "Atlanta run",2 of those plays were for TDs, game winners if I believe. The Atlanta run he did not have to go in, he was hurt could bearley raise his arm drove them down and scored.

Jacksonville, you can not tell me with a straight face you were the only one not cheering. Those are some great moments here, very few as of now but great moments for fans.

Now dont take what I said to heart not trying to start nothing, but come on Vinny you did not cheer, not at all?:um:

Now I seem to remember that is what Vince Young run looked like on the game winning score too vs the Trojans.
Now the opposite of smart is stupid.:muscles:

Vinny
06-24-2006, 03:51 PM
I really don't think that a one yard plunge or a one yard naked boot are good examples of great quarterbacking. I see you dog on VY when someone mentions his running but its GREAT when Carr runs? Come on bro...don't be inconsistent.

TEXANRED
06-24-2006, 03:56 PM
Search my posts. I'm not bitter just because you say I'm bitter.

I could provide examples of 'great QB play' from Carr but pointing out those plays as proof he is a heck of a QB was weak....one yard runs or a scramble where there is nothing but open tundra aren't what I'd consider great examples of superior play. Just because I comment on his game doesn't mean I'm bitter about anything. I just comment on the players honestly. I'm not much of a sunshine pumper. If I saw great play, I'd say it.
You are bitter, admitt it, its O.K. You are Vinny "David Carr is a hack" MB adminstrator. Its O.K. As you have pointed ever so painfully though the years, its your opinion and you are entittled to it. Thats fine. Hey the first steps to the road to recovery are admitting to yourself how you truely feel. Self denial is not a good thing.

Your kinda covering your grounds here, if David does well and proves he is a star in this league, then you can say "I never said David wasen't good, only saying that he wasen't performing to his expectations at that time." Now if he does bad you can say "He sucked and I told you so."

I do agree with you when you say there is a gray area and not everything is in black and white, but as I have said earlier you have never said anything positive about David Carr. I challenge you. Say somthing positive about his game. Somthing. Anything.

I will give you a play. Year two, Saints, QB keeper, breaks the Saints CB's ankles off as he walks into the end-zone.

He has finished #1 over the last three years as the AFC's #1 rushing QB.

Hopefully all our arguments are laid to rest after this year.

Vinny
06-24-2006, 03:56 PM
I talk about Carr and you guys bash me as a person. Nice. That's why I don't like talking football with you Carr fans. You can't just discuss his game without getting personal.

Hulk75
06-24-2006, 03:57 PM
I really don't think that a one yard plunge or a one yard naked boot are good examples of great quarterbacking. I see you dog on VY when someone mentions his running but its GREAT when Carr runs? Come on bro...don't be inconsistent.
Bro never said they were great not one time. But two of those runs were in the final minutes when we needed to score and we did, by getting good field possition on the Atlanta run. 2-0 in those 2 games.

Then it goes the same with you , Now hold on, dont say that Carrs run was not something impressive, when you think that VYs run with no one around was.
And I never dogged him, when was it I just flat out said something that was not true about Vince. dont bring up old stuff, I was angry during the draft. :)

Vinny
06-24-2006, 04:01 PM
Then it goes the same with you , Now hold on, dont say that Carrs run was not something impressive, when you think that VYs run with no one around was.
I've never seen VY play as a pro. Correct me on that if I am wrong.

Hulk75
06-24-2006, 04:03 PM
I've never seen VY play as a pro. Correct me on that if I am wrong.
My head hurts, was it not the same kind of run?

They both drop back and take off running and nobody touches either of them.

Vinny
06-24-2006, 04:03 PM
I do agree with you when you say there is a gray area and not everything is in black and white, but as I have said earlier you have never said anything positive about David Carr. I challenge you. Say somthing positive about his game. Somthing. Anything. All you have to do is scroll up. I said something nice in post 314. All you haters need to give it a rest....just because you type something about me doesn't make it true.

Vinny
06-24-2006, 04:04 PM
My head hurts, was it not the same kind of run?What the heck are you talking about anyway? I have zero game film to review on Young as a Pro. I don't compare the College game to the pro game.

TEXANRED
06-24-2006, 04:04 PM
I talk about Carr and you guys bash me as a person. Nice. That's why I don't like talking football with you Carr fans. You can't just discuss his game without getting personal.
Am I bashing? I apologize if you feel that way. More playing with you at this point, there is nothing left that can be said. For the last two years on this MB both you and I have yet to say anything new. I say he has potential and you don't see it.

Nothing will change until we start winning games.

I am considering making a big banner for the Texan/Eagle home opener that says "Come on David and prove Vinny wrong.":)

Vinny
06-24-2006, 04:07 PM
Am I bashing? I apologize if you feel that way. More playing with you at this point, there is nothing left that can be said. For the last two years on this MB both you and I have yet to say anything new. I say he has potential and you don't see it.

Nothing will change until we start winning games.

I am considering making a big banner for the Texan/Eagle home opener that says "Come on David and prove Vinny wrong.":)I have said the same thing for 4 years and the long timers know I just give my honest take on things, so far I've been right to date. Perhaps in year 5 you have a shot.

TEXANRED
06-24-2006, 04:08 PM
I think DC had miserable coaching and I also think that he does what he is told....probably almost to a fault. I don't have any doubt he will play better this year. I could point to the Minnesota game or the Titan game over a year ago or even the Cards game...or the beautiful pass to Mathis in the end zone if I wanted to shine a light on his good stuff....but scrambles as a glimpse of his greatness was just weak.
Thats a backhanded compliment, but something nice never the less.

You proved me wrong.

No, thats impossible, I can't be wrong.:hides: Now look at what you have done.

Hulk75
06-24-2006, 04:11 PM
What the heck are you talking about anyway? I have zero game film to review on Young as a Pro. I don't compare the College game to the pro game.
Stop man, dont take me for some guy that does not know crap.

Dont say Carrs run was not good and think Vince Youngs was.

Stop sending this thing off into no were, I had a anwser for everyone of your comments on the guy, now just answer one mine............

Then it goes the same with you , Now hold on, dont say that Carrs run was not something impressive, when you think that VYs run with no one around was.

They both drop back and take off running and nobody touches either of them.

Vinny
06-24-2006, 04:12 PM
I know better than to discuss David Carr on the Texans board. I should just keep my thoughts to myself. My bad. I'll go back to talking football with my friends in PMs and instant messages.

Hulk75
06-24-2006, 04:13 PM
AND the answer is?

Vinny
06-24-2006, 04:15 PM
The answer is....I beg out...you guys talk about David all you want.

Have a good one guys.

Hulk75
06-24-2006, 04:17 PM
Thanks Vinny, I appreciate it. Thanks for the answer.

What did I win for Stumping the Schwab? ......................little joke:)

TEXANRED
06-24-2006, 04:20 PM
The answer is....I beg out...you guys talk about David all you want.

Have a good one guys.
Its no fun if everyone sits around and agree all the time.

And I am finishing up my 67th hour of work for the week, almost time to go home and nothing else to do.

This is Tkyss's fault anyways for even starting a David Carr thread. He should be put in Man Jail.

Vinny
06-24-2006, 05:00 PM
One last post I guess...

I don't look for agreement. Most who have read me over the years fully understand that I enjoy diverse opinion. In 5 or so years posting here I have just learned to just bail on some threads and should just keep my opinion to myself at times. I get frustrated and it just comes out badly. Nobody can make me look like a fool except for me...and I'm trying to stop hammering myself.

HJam72
06-24-2006, 06:37 PM
There should be a time limit on some threads. So many days and the thread becomes unpostable. Of course, then anybody could just start a new thread on the same subject, so....well....I'm an idiot, nevermind. :rolleyes:

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 07:19 PM
No you didn't! Bump the stirrer of pots. :stirpot:

beerlover
06-24-2006, 09:32 PM
the reason this is such a hot topic because the #1 Need of the Texans this off season was to determin if David Carr was going to remain the QB plain and simple. believe me I saw alot of the same things and agree with Vinny on the whole as it relates to the position and Davids difficutlies so far. David Carr is a running QB that does not look to run, rather to throw on the run to be effective something that is ingrained in Kubiak & his system all the way back to his playing days with Elway in Denver.

David Carr stands a hell of alot better chance to address his running/passing in year 5 given his abilites paired with Kubiaks offensive scheme. As fans we have to sit and endure the powers that be decesion making regardless how we post here or call into the radio stations or emal the Texans. You have to roll with the punches and stand behind your team no matter what, still the Texans will rue the day they passed on Vince Young. Given a year to prepare he would be ready to assume the starting role at the same time raising Carr's stock (1st rd. pick) in any future trade :twocents:

chuckm
06-24-2006, 09:35 PM
have we decided if he's on the right track yet?

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 09:38 PM
have we decided if he's on the right track yet?

If you don't know, you better axe somebody.

chuckm
06-24-2006, 09:40 PM
If you don't know, you better axe somebody.


Do I get to choose? oh wait you meant ask right?

texan279
06-24-2006, 09:42 PM
If you don't know, you better axe somebody.

Very, very bad man...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/babooveryverybadman3hu.gif

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 09:43 PM
Very, very bad man...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/babooveryverybadman3hu.gif

I cannot take my eyes off of that. Nothing is more critical than a wag of the finger.

chuckm
06-24-2006, 09:44 PM
If you don't know, you better axe somebody.


I just asked my wife ...... she rolled her eyes ..... is that a yes or no?

thunderkyss
06-24-2006, 09:44 PM
Man, you are soooooooooooo bitter about Carr.

Oh well, he's the QB and I bet he's going to play better this year.


So you agree David Carr needs to play better??

end of story................. 'nuff said.

texan279
06-24-2006, 09:47 PM
I just asked my wife ...... she rolled her eyes ..... is that a yes or no?

I asked mine too, she smacked me and told me she's tired of hearing about football all year round...Bet she's gonna be upset when she finds out (in my best Willy Wonka voice) I got NFL Sunday ticket, I got NFL Sunday ticket! :shoot: :crutch:

chuckm
06-24-2006, 09:48 PM
I asked mine too, she smacked me and told me she's tired of hearing about football all year round...Bet she's gonna be upset when she finds out (in my best Willy Wonka voice) I got NFL Sunday ticket, I got NFL Sunday ticket! :shoot: :crutch:



SWEET count me in ...... you like Bud Light?

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 09:49 PM
I just asked my wife ...... she rolled her eyes ..... is that a yes or no?

It actually was a non sense response. I may be the only one that gets the humor outside of 15 others. You see Chuck sometimes I like to wear stretchy pants and laugh at my own obscure jokes.

texan279
06-24-2006, 09:49 PM
SWEET count me in ...... you like Bud Light?

Prefer Coors light, but Bud will do! :party:

chuckm
06-24-2006, 09:51 PM
It actually was a non sense response. I may be the only one that gets the humor outside of 15 others. You see Chuck sometimes I like to wear stretchy pants and laugh at my own obscure jokes.


I've known the value of stretchy pants for about 25 years now ..... well ever since take out pizza became popular

texan279
06-24-2006, 09:53 PM
I cannot take my eyes off of that. Nothing is more critical than a wag of the finger.

How about the wags of 10 fingers with eyes?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/eyes.jpg
:francis:

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 09:56 PM
How about the wags of 10 fingers with eyes?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/eyes.jpg
:francis:

What we need now is to-tal concentration.

TwinSisters
06-24-2006, 10:10 PM
One last post I guess...

I don't look for agreement. Most who have read me over the years fully understand that I enjoy diverse opinion. In 5 or so years posting here I have just learned to just bail on some threads and should just keep my opinion to myself at times. I get frustrated and it just comes out badly. Nobody can make me look like a fool except for me...and I'm trying to stop hammering myself.

Vinny. My man. This is a classic case of posting while under duress. 67 hours is too much ( unless you are coaching :) ). Take a nap and then come back. It's alright. Besides that: When you see ad hominem that means you have made your point. It's been that way with men since Socrates ( and he wasn't all that manly ).

TwinSisters
06-24-2006, 10:18 PM
have we decided if he's on the right track yet?

I'd say the conclusion is, "No. We don't."

The Department of Carr Defense rests on: we shall see. The Kryptonite is gone.

The Legion of Carr Loss Prevention persists with: we already saw and don't need to see again. The Kryptonite is still here and keeping a Superman from showing up to save the world.

chuckm
06-24-2006, 10:20 PM
I'd say the conclusion is, "No. We don't."

The Department of Carr Defense rests on: we shall see. The Kryptonite is gone.

The Legion of Carr Loss Prevention persists with: we already saw and don't need to see again. The Kryptonite is still here and keeping a Superman from showing up to save the world.


I understood the first sentence ....... after that ....... lemme ask my wife

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 10:20 PM
I'd say the conclusion is, "No. We don't."

The Department of Carr Defense rests on: we shall see. The Kryptonite is gone.

The Legion of Carr Loss Prevention persists with: we already saw and don't need to see again. The Kryptonite is still here and keeping a Superman from showing up to save the world.

I am holding on for a hero. I will not take these stretchy pants off until Carr throws for more than 201 yards, 2TDs in a Texan win. :fireball: :stirpot: :mario:

texan279
06-24-2006, 10:22 PM
I am holding on for a hero. I will not take these stretchy pants off until Carr throws for more than 201 yards, 2TDs in a Texan win. :fireball: :stirpot: :mario:

If I didn't have to spread reputation around, you'd have about 500 points from me by now lmao. :tease:

chuckm
06-24-2006, 10:25 PM
If I didn't have to spread reputation around, you'd have about 500 points from me by now lmao. :tease:


I thought about giving him some rep points but my wife said no .... sorry KT

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 10:27 PM
I thought about giving him some rep points but my wife said no .... sorry KT

Well if keeping it real is wrong then I do not want to be right. :fireball:

chuckm
06-24-2006, 10:28 PM
Well if keeping it real is wrong then I do not want to be right. :fireball:



so yes or no KT ....... tequila?

texan279
06-24-2006, 10:30 PM
I thought about giving him some rep points but my wife said no .... sorry KT

NO POINTS FOR YOU!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/gberb-1.jpg

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 10:40 PM
so yes or no KT ....... tequila?

The last time I was propositioned with a yes or no it was in a small village out side of Toledo, Spain, in 1990, and I was at a huge club. The DJ said something about American basketball players and the euro beat came in with the words Esta si, Esta no. The next evening I played against Arvydas Sabonis when he was with Forum Vallodolid. Later that evening I smoked a cigar and did shots of tequila with a guy from the other team who was from Texas. While all of this was going on our opponents the next day were stealing everything in site, man those Ukrainians were crazy, but that is a whole nuther stream of conciousness rant.

Have not done a shot of tequila since 1994.

chuckm
06-24-2006, 10:42 PM
The last time I was propositioned with a yes or no it was in a small village out side of Toledo, Spain, in 1990, and I was at a huge club. The DJ said something about American basketball players and the euro beat came in with the words Esta si, Esta no. The next evening I played against Arvydas Sabonis when he was with Forum Vallodolid. Later that evening I smoked a cigar and did shots of tequila with a guy from the other team who was from Texas. While all of this was going on our opponents the next day were stealing everything in site, man those Ukrainians were crazy, but that is a whole nuther stream of conciousness rant.

Have not done a shot of tequila since 1994.


I've never been to Spain but I had a guy yell at me from his car today in Spanish .... or yell at me in Spanish from his car today ..... whichever

texan279
06-24-2006, 10:43 PM
The last time I was propositioned with a yes or no it was in a small village out side of Toledo, Spain, in 1990, and I was at a huge club. The DJ said something about American basketball players and the euro beat came in with the words Esta si, Esta no. The next evening I played against Arvydas Sabonis when he was with Forum Vallodolid. Later that evening I smoked a cigar and did shots of tequila with a guy from the other team who was from Texas. While all of this was going on our opponents the next day were stealing everything in site, man those Ukrainians were crazy, but that is a whole nuther stream of conciousness rant.

Have not done a shot of tequila since 1994.

As soon as I started reading your post, I read it in my head in the voice of J Peterman from Seinfeld. And the last time I had tequila, it was mescal straght from Mexico, with the worm in it, and after 4 shots I started seeing colors, literally.

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 10:44 PM
I've never been to Spain but I had a guy yell at me from his car today in Spanish ....

Happens to me all the time. Usually screaming something about having fun at a beach. :bowser:

chuckm
06-24-2006, 10:45 PM
Happens to me all the time. Usually screaming something about having fun at a beach. :bowser:



ok enough of this foolishness ...... David Carr .... thoughts???

Kaiser Toro
06-24-2006, 10:50 PM
ok enough of this foolishness ...... David Carr .... thoughts???

I really want him to best every stat that he has posted and see the Texans have their best season in the same year. It would really show me that all this meant something as the success of the Texans has been tied at the hip with Carr's progression and for good reason. I can dream or I can talk about my stretchy pants. This thread is poiiiiiison. Poison! Poison!

chuckm
06-24-2006, 10:53 PM
I really want him to best every stat that he has posted and see the Texans have their best season in the same year. It would really show me that all this meant something as the success of the Texans has been tied at the hip with Carr's progression and for good reason. I can dream or I can talk about my stretchy pants. This thread is poiiiiiison. Poison! Poison!



If Carr can't make it with Kubiak and an improved offensive line, adios Davido ..... if he flourishes, we all win .......

texan279
06-24-2006, 10:56 PM
ok enough of this foolishness ...... David Carr .... thoughts???

Getting back on track, I know I am one of the biggest Carr homers here. But I support all of the players on our team, due to the lack of coaching, horrible play calling, and the coaches having players play out of position in the past. The only reason it seems I speak out in support of Carr so much is because out of all of the players, he seems to get the most criticism on here, whether it be because he plays QB or because of his salary or whatever. IMO I will give Carr one and a half seasons, MAYBE two full seasons to see if he can become a good, consistent QB who can lead the offense. If he cannot do that within at least 2 season, then I will join everyone else who wants to run him out of town with torches and pitchforks. The only reason I say 1 1/2 to 2 seasons is because of the new coaching staff, new additions to the team, and new schemes, we are basically starting from a clean slate here. I will give everyone on the team who has underperformed or not played to expectations time to see what they can do on the field.

chuckm
06-24-2006, 10:56 PM
The last time I was propositioned with a yes or no it was in a small village out side of Toledo, Spain, in 1990, and I was at a huge club. The DJ said something about American basketball players and the euro beat came in with the words Esta si, Esta no. The next evening I played against Arvydas Sabonis when he was with Forum Vallodolid. Later that evening I smoked a cigar and did shots of tequila with a guy from the other team who was from Texas. While all of this was going on our opponents the next day were stealing everything in site, man those Ukrainians were crazy, but that is a whole nuther stream of conciousness rant.

Have not done a shot of tequila since 1994.


I spent 2 weeks in Brazil though ......... the beer sure is strong down there .... and they drive like madmen

GP
06-25-2006, 02:38 PM
So you agree David Carr needs to play better??

end of story................. 'nuff said.

I've never said he was a QB God...you just assume that anyone who takes up Carr's defense is a 100% homer for the guy. I've stated repeatedly that "It's a no-brainer that he didn't play well. NONE of our guys played well. So that statement doesn't really prove anything. Nobody played well."

The QB spot in the NFL is the most tricky position to fill. And I just don't see anybody out there that could do the job for us, for the same (or less) money as we gave Carr. Why is it that we cannot seem to grasp the idea that some players are not performing because they never had the talent to begin with, OR because they have the talent and have had it squandered by a head coach (Capers) who isn't even allowed to call his own defense in Miami? If that's not the epitome of "guy can't call a game," I don't know what is.

Your point is not really a point at all. "He hasn't played well, and he should be way ahead for what we paid him. Etc. Etc."

I fail to see the grand "point" to your first post. "Duh," he didn't play well. And Double "Duh" he hasn't earned the money we paid him. There's not anything about your "point" that makes me say, "Wow, now THERE is a guy who knows something most people don't."

We HAD to pay him the $8 mill or he legally WALKS, and that was something that all the scouts, the new head coach, the owner, and the hired consultant agreed should NOT happen. Apparently, your guy Vince Young wasn't worth it to the decision makers who decided that Carr can go ahead and get paid his $8 mill and everything should be just fine.

At least Kaiser Toro is man enough to back off the hardcore anti-Carr stance and just let it die, hoping that the guy erases bad performance and brings us into a better season. And I know you say that you "support him" when I asked that question, but maybe it's time to realize that we paid Carr the $8 mill in the same fashion as some stock holders might re-capitalize a business because something in the marketplace has happened that warrants a re-investment so that the once-floundering company can sieze the opportunity and push home the winning run.

Call the Carr option just that: Re-capitalization.

TwinSisters
06-25-2006, 04:35 PM
Call the Carr option just that: Re-capitalization.

Good point.

So are you saying Carr is the Edsel of the NFL? Capital placed in potential, while the Tucker car gets drafted by the Japanese enemy and then takes over the industry 4 years later because the experts and men in charge are all still banking on the potential?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel

Nobody to this day knows why the Edsel failed.

the Edsel was "the wrong [Carr] at the wrong time."
"The aim was right, but the target moved"

Sounds like Carr to me too. Dave E-Carr. The Experimental Carr. The Houston Edsel. Now all we need is Billy Joel to sing a song about him.

http://www.edsel.com/pages/edslfilm.htm

Used Cars. Very funny.

Or
Are you saying Carr is the 30,000,000 dollar Volkswagen Beetle? The Super Beetle that is really reliable, but needs special conditions to work? Those cars work great in California, where it's 73 and Sunny all year long, but break down in the Texas heat.

If all we needed was a Banksmobile that is just good enough and can be counted on for taking a beating in our salad days, then why pay an extra 20 million for it.

Or
If you are lost and cannot understand. David Carr was drafted with a strong and accurate arm for the long ball. Chris Palmer works under a vertical doctrine. He was a QB coach under Bill Parcells. He is now the QB coach for the Dallas Cowboys. The same Cowboys that were in just as bad shape as the Texans in 2002.

Yet some how he had bad coaching. This coaching that is going to be fixed with another former QB coach? It's not like Bledsoe turned out to be a chump. He can and has lit it up for 4000 yards a season.

Re-capitalization indeed.

Lucky
06-25-2006, 04:40 PM
Chris Palmer works under a vertical doctrine. He was a QB coach under Bill Parcells. He is now the QB coach for the Dallas Cowboys. The same Cowboys that were in just as bad shape as the Texans in 2002.
Cut Palmer some slack, he just got started in Dallas. I'm certain he can drag down the Cowgirls offense by mid-season.

TwinSisters
06-25-2006, 06:19 PM
Cut Palmer some slack, he just got started in Dallas. I'm certain he can drag down the Cowgirls offense by mid-season.

Their offense is fine. The defenses in the east have gotten better, while their own is a problem. Their own o-line and secondary keeps falling apart. Not like I watch very many Dallas games though... so maybe, maybe not.

I did pay a little bit more attention to Joe Gibbs over the past two seasons. Mostly because of the Casserly Pardee links. Supposedly Gibbs was some kinda "organizational genius", yet when I saw/watched them... crap would break down due to poor organization! ( the new era Gibbs that is ) Stuff like delay of game and time outs due to them not knowing what the hell was going on, things like that. They should have that ironed out by now.

I will pass this little note on from the subject:

On having the talent evaluating being on the same side with coaching:
"When we came in, [Redskins owner] Dan [Snyder] was very specific about it that he's the boss. We all know that. But what we do here is a team, with everybody together. When it comes to personnel department, you've got [VP, Football Operations] Vinny [Cerrato] heading that up, but when we meet, it's all the coaches in there. We all put numbers on our draft choices, we all put one Redskin grade on all free agents, and I think around here, it's certainly not me making decisions, it's all of us together. We really pride ourselves here on the way we go about the draft, the way we go about free agency, and the way we go about making decisions. [Redskins owner] Dan [Snyder]'s always there, always run things buy him and get his wisdom, so I think it's a total group here. Before, we had [former general manager] Charley [Casserly]. I think we had a great relationship. [Former general manager] Bobby [Beathard] was the same. I think today we do many of the similar type things, it's just that we all move together and we all put one grade on it, one stamp on it. Collective minds make good decisions and I think that's what we try to do."

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=14394

Gibbs had to adjust to that... so we will see how it works out. It's season three, so we can look at certain things with a little more clarity.

bayoudreamn
06-25-2006, 08:43 PM
I thought you were drawing a parallel between David Carr and threads like this, and what would happen if Vince were to bust, and his fans would critisize him, like the fans are critisizing Carr right now.....

So I was asking the questions for you to clarify....

So your remark had nothing to do with Carr, where did the Vince hanging out on message boards, and getting hate mail on message boards coming from??

Are you David Carr, and are you getting hate mail off this message board??

just asking for clarification........

In case you are in fact David Carr....... love your game man....... I'm your biggest fan........ can you sign my T-shirt?? :redtowel:

LOL

GP
06-25-2006, 10:29 PM
Good point.

So are you saying Carr is the Edsel of the NFL? Capital placed in potential, while the Tucker car gets drafted by the Japanese enemy and then takes over the industry 4 years later because the experts and men in charge are all still banking on the potential?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel

Nobody to this day knows why the Edsel failed.

the Edsel was "the wrong [Carr] at the wrong time."
"The aim was right, but the target moved"

Sounds like Carr to me too. Dave E-Carr. The Experimental Carr. The Houston Edsel. Now all we need is Billy Joel to sing a song about him.

http://www.edsel.com/pages/edslfilm.htm

Used Cars. Very funny.

Or
Are you saying Carr is the 30,000,000 dollar Volkswagen Beetle? The Super Beetle that is really reliable, but needs special conditions to work? Those cars work great in California, where it's 73 and Sunny all year long, but break down in the Texas heat.

If all we needed was a Banksmobile that is just good enough and can be counted on for taking a beating in our salad days, then why pay an extra 20 million for it.

Or
If you are lost and cannot understand. David Carr was drafted with a strong and accurate arm for the long ball. Chris Palmer works under a vertical doctrine. He was a QB coach under Bill Parcells. He is now the QB coach for the Dallas Cowboys. The same Cowboys that were in just as bad shape as the Texans in 2002.

Yet some how he had bad coaching. This coaching that is going to be fixed with another former QB coach? It's not like Bledsoe turned out to be a chump. He can and has lit it up for 4000 yards a season.

Re-capitalization indeed.

Congratulations, you just cracked the Carrvinci code.

Seriously, though: I think we're in a lot better shape with Kubiak as our head coach than we were with Capers as the HC and Palmer as the QB coach.

Once more: I'd like to believe and trust that our owner became a tycoon because he has the ability to make correct decisions MORE than he does wrong decisions. Was Capers getting the nod as HC the right decision? At the time, it was the best or perhaps the only option. I'd like to think that Kubiak wasn't ready at the time, and that Capers helped build a foundation of character for a guy like Kubiak to come in and take us all the way to the next level. That'd be worth four years of Carr "not playing well."

Vince Young was not the option any of the Texans decision makers wanted to make. And neither was Reggie Bush.

Perhaps we're finally entering a stage of Texans history where we actually look like a real NFL team, and not a United Way flag football team.

Hooray Responsibility!

DenverBorn
06-25-2006, 11:40 PM
As I've said elsewhere, Carr is not the guy to take the team to the next level. He doesn/'t have any sense of urgency about winning. He just wants to play well enough to not embarass himself and to collect his money. With no competition for his job and all his money in the bank, we're just wasting our time here. Damn I wish we had Number 10 waiting on the sidelines just waiting to get into the game. It's not about throwing motion or offensive schemes, it's about heart and intensity and desire.

TwinSisters
06-26-2006, 12:24 AM
Vince Young was not the option any of the Texans decision makers wanted to make. And neither was Reggie Bush.

Vincent Young was NOT going to be drafted by the Houston Texans. And yes Mr.Thunderkyss, I know you disagree. I disagree with you too :) It's alright and not wrong to disagree.

If Vincent wanted to play for the Texans, he would have known. But we all know Vincent isn't exactly what we call a brain trust. He played for UT and could have called up Bob any day of the week. Bob would take the call. Why is that? Because business is just about the people you know, as the decisions you make ( if not greater ).

Feel like I am pulling your leg? Or talking crazy? Or perhaps just spinning the grass and chewing the cud?

Da Vinci Code: I can go with that. Let's look at some art and see if we can see something. A message, a reason, a thousand words perhaps.

http://www.sc.edu/spotlight/item.php?catid=3&sid=35

Go ahead and click on it. I know by the language that you use, that it's your flavour of art. Not saying that there is anything wrong with that either.

BA in Pyschology. Creates Scholarships in Carolina. Amongst other items.

Now... I am a hack at critiquing art. In fact I was kicked out on my butt from a museum in France because I couldn't stop laughing at these guys walking around with 6 foot dunce caps on their operative equipment. They called me a Le barbarian or something like that. I called them ********* and went about my way. But I learned something. Not from them, but from the experience. I learned that art is just as much about the things you see, as you don't see.

For instance in our little spotlight piece, you don't see MBA and you don't see creating scholarship funds in Texas. Amongst other items.

I don't know about you, but I think the artist likes Carolina. I think the artist makes a bold statement by picking a Carolina man number one overall when a nation has him at number two. You could call it, "Robert McNair is investing in Carolina."

thunderkyss
06-26-2006, 05:48 AM
If he cannot do that within at least 2 season, then I will join everyone else who wants to run him out of town with torches and pitchforks.

See........ not everyone who criticizes Carr wants him run out of town....

I admit...... there was a time, when letting Carr go would have cost us nothing, and their was another prospect..... with just as much upside as David, waiting for us....... QB prospects the like of Carr & VY don't come around that often...... & I don't put Lienart in that Category.... so you've got to grab them when you can.

That point is past now, and we've got Carr, or Rosenfells.... I don't think there is a free agent out there, who will give us as good a chance to win as Carr... people don't usually let good QBs go......

So........ my problem, is that unlike you, I've seen sooooo many other players get bashed and torn down by our fans, but not Carr....... & I don't understand that.

I've never said he was a QB God...you just assume that anyone who takes up Carr's defense is a 100% homer for the guy. I've stated repeatedly that "It's a no-brainer that he didn't play well. NONE of our guys played well. So that statement doesn't really prove anything. Nobody played well."


& that's all I've said, and have been saying....... You just assume that everyone who criticizes Carr is a Carr hater, with no middle ground.

The people I was addressing with my first post, were those who believe David didn't have an opportunity to show what he is capable of..... I don't expect David to win games all by himself.... I don't blame our 2-14 season on him. & I don't think his stats tell the full story....

At the same time, I think there should be definite benefits to sticking with David, than going with a Ragone, Rosenfells, or even Tony Banks.... but as of now, there isn't. Other than the fact, that we know he can take a punch....... because right now, that is all we know.

For instance in our little spotlight piece, you don't see MBA and you don't see creating scholarship funds in Texas. Amongst other items.

I don't know about you, but I think the artist likes Carolina. I think the artist makes a bold statement by picking a Carolina man number one overall when a nation has him at number two. You could call it, "Robert McNair is investing in Carolina."

What???

TwinSisters
06-26-2006, 08:29 AM
What???

yeah, you will not be able to take that out of context. The original line that we are working off of 'is what makes a business man make tick?' and looking at the pyschology of a pyschology major that is successful in business.

McNair has strong ties to Carolina. If you look at McNair compared to other business men, you see him fairly involved and is something that you would call a people person. Even when you look at his little write up on the HQ repository, he sits on like 10 different boards... hmmm I just looked at it again.

Somebody appears to have updated it recently. Interesting. I suppose that is a good idea with all the new faces.

I see a little discrepency there too. Houstontexans.com says He graduated from the University of South Carolina in Columbia in 1958 with a Bachelor of Science degree. leaving out the Psychology, while USC says Bachelor of Arts Psychology. eheh not exactly O'Leary bad, but still a bad example to set for business leader with 20 some odd awards. ( however I simply do not care at this point )
---

Back to the Dave; The Houston Edsel Project

The people I was addressing with my first post, were those who believe David didn't have an opportunity to show what he is capable of..... I don't expect David to win games all by himself.... I don't blame our 2-14 season on him. & I don't think his stats tell the full story....

At the same time, I think there should be definite benefits to sticking with David, than going with a Ragone, Rosenfells, or even Tony Banks.... but as of now, there isn't. Other than the fact, that we know he can take a punch....... because right now, that is all we know.

I don't agree.

If you are going to play dink and dunk West Coast with an emphasis on the running scheme, then you don't need to spend the extra money on a Bledsoe with wheels from Bakers field ( Tom Hanks Castaway ). Banks cost something like a 1,000,000 a season. That extra 6,000,000 could get you Ty Law or several different linebackers, guards, backs, etc. You name it. Or just upgrading different players over the past 4 years. Even if you wanted to upgrade from Banks you could do it with Griese. Remember David Givens? If we had no Carr, we would have Givens at 5 years for 25 million. Instead of Moulds in his twilight years at 2 million. I think Griese would have worked with Givens and Johnson ( plus they are aged together ).

AJ still works fine in a West Coast type of offense ( for the money ).

---

Although I should say, maybe Calhoun is going to figure out what was holding up the vertical movement that was stiffling Palmer/Capers. Then Carr is no longer that much of a bad deal. That won't change the fact that it was a failure in the past though.

bigbrewster2000
06-26-2006, 09:06 AM
Although I should say, maybe Calhoun is going to figure out what was holding up the vertical movement that was stiffling Palmer/Capers. Then Carr is no longer that much of a bad deal. That won't change the fact that it was a failure in the past though. I think we can all agree that our offensive project was a failure in the past. It did look pretty dang good in '04 though. Let's be glad that we have moved on.

TwinSisters
06-26-2006, 10:42 AM
I think we can all agree that our offensive project was a failure in the past. It did look pretty dang good in '04 though. Let's be glad that we have moved on.

Yeah I just got started looking at Calhoun and trying to see what he is all about:

USAF/Falcons man: ++
Caught the attention of Gruden and Shanahan from Lundquist: +

I ran across one article that had him pegged as the next Texans Head Coach. Not sure what that is about??

Supposedly he was doing some really great things at Wake Forest.. creative different things, but naturally they didn't say what!: + or -

He gets some credit for the 4,000 yards that Plummer put out: ++

I have to caution though, that of all the articles I found right away, they were all fluff pieces that tend to over build, as oppossed to spotting weakness or negatives.

nunusguy
06-26-2006, 10:46 AM
He's got a golf tournament and visiting 610 which is at the site of the tournament. He's is making some encourageing comments, among them:
Says when Spencer was in and went against Mario, sometimes it was a
"stalemate".
Talking about how Kubiak is getting rid of some of his "bad habits" that's he's
picked up in recent years.
Many players very optimistic, with a chip on their shoulders after last year.
Says AJ is looking better that ever, and is running the best routes ever in his career in practice as he along with others have really bought into the new system.
And Carr says OC Calhoun is a genius, Carr seems to have tremendous confidance in him just like he does Kubiak.

texan279
06-26-2006, 10:51 AM
He's got a golf tournament and visiting 610 which is at the site of the tournament. He's is making some encourageing comments, among them:
Says when Spencer was in and went against Mario, sometimes it was a
"stalemate".
Talking about how Kubiak is getting rid of some of his "bad habits" that's he's
picked up in recent years.
Many players very optimistic, with a chip on their shoulders after last year.
Says AJ is looking better that ever, and is running the best routes ever in his career in practice as he along with others have really bought into the new system.
And Carr says OC Calhoun is a genius, Carr seems to have tremendous confidance in him just like he does Kubiak.

Thanks for sharing, not sure if I like the sound of this though, and before anyone jumps down my throat, yes I know it's just practice...
Says when Spencer was in and went against Mario, sometimes it was a
"stalemate".

nunusguy
06-26-2006, 10:58 AM
Thanks for sharing, not sure if I like the sound of this though, and before anyone jumps down my throat, yes I know it's just practice...
I hear you, its maybe got a double edged-sword sort of thing going.
But Carr is really being candid. To report some more on his comments, he says
the worst beating he ever took (physically), was the game they actually won against
the Steelers up there several years ago when he says OLB Joey Porter hit him atleast 10 times. Apparently they are both from Bakersfield, CA and talk trash to each
other when they run into each other back in CA.
But he is clearly upbeat, and in his last remark says the best thing in his mind is the new O schemes. He is really shy-high and clearly it is sincere.

texan279
06-26-2006, 11:06 AM
I hear you, its maybe got a double edged-sword sort of thing going.
But Carr is really being candid. To report some more on his comments, he says
the worst beating he ever took (physically), was the game they actually won against
the Steelers up there several years ago when he says OLB Joey Porter hit him atleast 10 times. Apparently they are both from Bakersfield, CA and talk trash to each
other when they run into each other back in CA.
But he is clearly upbeat, and in his last remark says the best thing in his mind is the new O schemes. He is really shy-high and clearly it is sincere.

Was that the snow game where we broke the record for most points scored with least offensive yards or something like that? I can imagine getting hit by Porter hurting, but if it was the snow game it probably felt 20 times worse in that freezing cold weather. I am just glad from everything I am hearing it seems Carr has his confidence back and has confidence in our new coaches.

Lucky
06-26-2006, 11:09 AM
He's got a golf tournament and visiting 610 which is at the site of the tournament.
It's been discussed here as to which game David Carr called the plays in the 1st half, St. Louis or Arizona. Carr was asked about the play calling last season, and what games he called the plays in. He answered that he called the plays during the 1st half in both the Rams and Cardinals games.

texan279
06-26-2006, 11:14 AM
It's been discussed here as to which game David Carr called the plays in the 1st half, St. Louis or Arizona. Carr was asked about the play calling last season, and what games he called the plays in. He answered that he called the plays during the 1st half in both the Rams and Cardinals games.

Just out of curiousity I went back and checked his stats for those two games...

Against the Rams he was 25/34 293 yards 3 TD's 1 INT
Against the Cards he was 22/30 150 yards 0 TD's and 1 INT

GP
06-26-2006, 11:22 AM
It's been discussed here as to which game David Carr called the plays in the 1st half, St. Louis or Arizona. Carr was asked about the play calling last season, and what games he called the plays in. He answered that he called the plays during the 1st half in both the Rams and Cardinals games.

Can anyone send me a VHS tape of those two games?

I have DirecTV tivo (built-in recording) now, but last year I had just a VCR and was not particularly motivated to record a 2-14 season.

I'd love to get my hands on that tape of those two games and see the difference between the two halves of each game.

Send me a private message if you can spare a copy of it. If I need to send some $ for the purchase of a a vhs tape, I'll do that. And I will pay the shipping to get it to me.

Double Barrel
06-26-2006, 11:58 AM
Cut Palmer some slack, he just got started in Dallas. I'm certain he can drag down the Cowgirls offense by mid-season.

Something to look forward to! *fingers crossed* :ok:

the wonger need food
06-26-2006, 12:46 PM
It's been discussed here as to which game David Carr called the plays in the 1st half, St. Louis or Arizona. Carr was asked about the play calling last season, and what games he called the plays in. He answered that he called the plays during the 1st half in both the Rams and Cardinals games.

Lucky, you can't take the first half of the Arizona game away from the guy. It's one of his shining moments that show his fans how great he can be. Sure, he didn't throw for 100 yards and had more interceptions than TD's, but come'on. Sure, logic tells you that he called a run offtackle or hitch pass every play and Arizona didn't adjust until after halftime, but logic has no place when the failures of Davie Franchise are being discussed.

nunusguy
06-26-2006, 01:24 PM
But Carr seemed sympathetic to the situation that Pendry had been thrown
into, though he kinda implied (in a beneign sort of way, Carr obviously is not at all mean or even sarcastic), that at some point in the second half of the season (after Palmer was canned and Pendry had been thrown in as OC),
that he (Pendry) just didn't have a clue as to what to do make the O work.
So in utter frustration, he just told Carr to call his own plays in a couple games, which of course turned out to be very effective. Dave didn't know why he wouldn't let him call the plays in the second halfs of those games ?
Carr also mentioned Joppru and said he was "stripped-down" (I think he used that term, meaning he'd lost a lot of weight) and was looking good.
I'm sure Dave wanted to mention as many people as possible on his offensive side of the ball.
Texan279 mentioned earlier in this thread that he might be a little concerned
that rookie Spencer battled Mario to a stalemate on some plays, according to
what I reported that Carr said. IMO, the thing to remember is that Reggie
White was battled to a stalemate on most plays. Even the great DLineman don't win most battles, usually the OLineman holds off the D guy.
In other words its not cause for concern. It wouldn't be like, by comparison, your rookie CB you got in the 3rd round consistantly tackling Reggie Bush one-on-one in the open field.

powerfuldragon
06-26-2006, 01:29 PM
Says when Spencer was in and went against Mario, sometimes it was a
"stalemate".

I actually don't like the sound of that, it doesn't say much about Mario's skills.

real
06-26-2006, 01:30 PM
Did they have pads on? Because without pads it doesn't really mean much...And what else is also interesting is that he even pointed that out...Was spencer the only OL to stalemate Mario, or Was he just pointing it out because he's a rookie ? Surely other lineman had success against him...

Double Barrel
06-26-2006, 01:33 PM
I actually don't like the sound of that, it doesn't say much about Mario's skills.

Mario is probably not up to 100%, yet, considering his toes are still in the process of healing.

[/excuse]

I thought the same thing when I read that, too. But only time will tell, though, and only when we see him during an actual game.

the wonger need food
06-26-2006, 01:34 PM
Texan279 mentioned earlier in this thread that he might be a little concerned that rookie Spencer battled Mario to a stalemate on some plays, according to what I reported that Carr said.

Sounds like more of a compliment to Spencer than a knock on Mario. And half-shell battles don't really count anyway.

I'm expecting to see Spencer as the LT when the season starts. Wand just doesn't seem to have the strength or mean streak to be a great one.

SESupergenius
06-26-2006, 01:37 PM
I would have characterized Thunderkyss as a Carr hater a few months ago. He ranted and raved about dumping Carr and getting Young. But I have to hand it to him, when that didn't happen he is now supporting Carr to get the job done. You can respect his take on Carr back then because if you look at Carrs numbers just from a printed stat sheet, he's been a pretty average QB who gets paid Top QB money. But in that you have to look at all the other intagibles around him that this new management focus has guided into a new direction. Gone are all the excuses for Carr; Capers playcalling, Fangios Defense, Palmers ineptness, Casserlys eye for talent and free agent acquisitions, injuries, etc...

Our offseason has pretty much taken Care of almost every angle that Carr apologists make (I am one, it's not a bad word!). So this year is the YEAR of CARR because it's all on him to get this thing going. He has to throw at least 20 TD's this year and have more TD's than Int' for him to be successful in my book.

Runner
06-26-2006, 01:41 PM
Did they have pads on? Because without pads it doesn't really mean much...And what else is also interesting is that he even pointed that out...Was spencer the only OL to stalemate Mario, or Was he just pointing it out because he's a rookie ? Surely other lineman had success against him...

I'm not reading anything negative to Williams into this comment, mainly because o-lineman "stalemate" the d-lineman on passing plays a lot. It is just the nature of the game that the few times the d-lineman gets the sack it makes the highlight reel. I'd guess in Strahan's record season of 22.5 sacks he got stoned more often than 22.5 times. I bet those weren't shown on ESPN either.

The comment does probably contain valid positive news about Spencer, given his relative inexperience and the fact he was singled out.

infantrycak
06-26-2006, 03:22 PM
Lucky, you can't take the first half of the Arizona game away from the guy. It's one of his shining moments that show his fans how great he can be. Sure, he didn't throw for 100 yards and had more interceptions than TD's, but come'on. Sure, logic tells you that he called a run offtackle or hitch pass every play and Arizona didn't adjust until after halftime, but logic has no place when the failures of Davie Franchise are being discussed.

Nice--so is it all about winning, or is it more about how the individual played? You can't have it both ways and you have been dancing with a different partner a lot more than this one.

infantrycak
06-26-2006, 03:26 PM
I'm not reading anything negative to Williams into this comment, mainly because o-lineman "stalemate" the d-lineman on passing plays a lot. It is just the nature of the game that the few times the d-lineman gets the sack it makes the highlight reel. I'd guess in Strahan's record season of 22.5 sacks he got stoned more often than 22.5 times. I bet those weren't shown on ESPN either.

The comment does probably contain valid positive news about Spencer, given his relative inexperience and the fact he was singled out.

Thank you. Spencer has zero potential if he is getting beat even by an exceptional rookie consistantly. Folks, a little perspective--a great, fantastic, extraordinary pass rusher in the NFL doesn't average 1 sack per game, i.e. 1 sack out of 65 or so plays. Spencer can stalemate Mario on 62 plays and lose out on 3 and have a bad day. Keep things in perspective.

NATHANHALE
06-26-2006, 03:32 PM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/position/OT

NFL Draft Tracker rates only 5 OT out of 25 6.0 or above, a cumulative score based on several criterias, and the Texans drafted 2 of the 5-- Winston (6.2) and Spencer (6.0), with Ferguson the highest rated at 6.5.

IMO, being ranked in the top 5 of the 'best of the best', means neither Spencer or Winston is a 'cupcake' and both played at 'notable' football schools--Pittsburg and Miami-- so I would expect them both to give Mario a tough battle. All 3 should benefit in the long run from going against top notch competition in practice, a 'plus' that not all players get (like Carr, for example).

real
06-26-2006, 03:46 PM
Thank you. Spencer has zero potential if he is getting beat even by an exceptional rookie consistantly. Folks, a little perspective--a great, fantastic, extraordinary pass rusher in the NFL doesn't average 1 sack per game, i.e. 1 sack out of 65 or so plays. Spencer can statelmate Mario on 62 plays and lose out on 3 and have a bad day. Keep things in perspective.

Thats my point...It's nothing spectacular about Spencer Stalemating with Mario...I was just wondering why D.C even brought that up...

infantrycak
06-26-2006, 04:13 PM
Thats my point...It's nothing spectacular about Spencer Stalemating with Mario...I was just wondering why D.C even brought that up...

Well, I guess the point would be giving kudos to a 3rd round pick with very limited experience at the position for standing up to a #1 overall. While it shouldn't be taken as a negative against Mario, it does speak well to Spencer's athleticism and possibly against the conventional mindset that it will take 2-3 years before a 3rd round OLmen will contribute.

Runner
06-26-2006, 04:23 PM
Thats my point...It's nothing spectacular about Spencer Stalemating with Mario...I was just wondering why D.C even brought that up...

And I was using your post as a jumping in point to add a little more info.

nunusguy
06-26-2006, 04:24 PM
I'm expecting to see Spencer as the LT when the season starts. Wand just doesn't seem to have the strength or mean streak to be a great one.
Carr's remarks here were in direct response to a question about how the rookie tackles were doing, if they were getting any snaps ? To which Carr said
Winston was seeing some action, and added that Spencer was to and then made the additional comment about how Spencer impressed in some plays
against Mario, i.e. the "stalemate comment".
Those are the only three names that came up (in Carr's remarks about play
between OLine vs DLine personnel). And since Mario has been playing exclusively on the strong side, I don't think any of this even involved Wand's side of the center.
The one thing new maybe is that Spencer is getting some time in at RT (and not LT where Wand plays). If we are going to indulge ourselves and jump to conclusions, how about this one ? Maybe they see Spencer as the guy that can help them at RT more than Winston, and Winston may actually end up at guard. Alot of people feel that Spencer is more of a natural tackle than
Winston, while Winston on the other hand is more suited for guard.

The Pencil Neck
06-26-2006, 05:30 PM
Thats my point...It's nothing spectacular about Spencer Stalemating with Mario...I was just wondering why D.C even brought that up...

Maybe because DC is so used to his tackles acting like matadors, he's kinda happy when one of them holds a block.

jerek
06-26-2006, 05:34 PM
Well, I guess the point would be giving kudos to a 3rd round pick with very limited experience at the position for standing up to a #1 overall. While it shouldn't be taken as a negative against Mario, it does speak well to Spencer's athleticism and possibly against the conventional mindset that it will take 2-3 years before a 3rd round OLmen will contribute.

I would go so far as to state that Spencer will start sometime this year, and if not, only because we [might] end up keeping two good players -- Pitts and I believe Wiegert, or McKinney -- will end up taking those places.

Personally I think Wand will be out sooner rather than later. In that case Pitts might well move to LT again, and I look for Winston to take over at RT about midway through the year.

I can't get the depth chart to load on the main site. Can anybody provide with the most recent update? (specifically the OL?)

infantrycak
06-26-2006, 06:45 PM
I would go so far as to state that Spencer will start sometime this year, and if not, only because we [might] end up keeping two good players -- Pitts and I believe Wiegert, or McKinney -- will end up taking those places.

Personally I think Wand will be out sooner rather than later. In that case Pitts might well move to LT again, and I look for Winston to take over at RT about midway through the year.

I can't get the depth chart to load on the main site. Can anybody provide with the most recent update? (specifically the OL?)

The main site depth chart is going to be blank for a while. While I think Pitts would be a serious RT, yet another group of coaches has come in and seen him as a guard--so be it. Between Wand, Spencer, Winston and Salaam I don't see Pitts back at LT at all this year. As for Wand--I suspect people are going to be surprised.

Runner
06-26-2006, 07:09 PM
As for Wand--I suspect people are going to be surprised.

Probably so. He was selected as a project because he had good physical skills, and he also had very good quickness numbers at the combine. He did, however go to a small college. The one thing he needed more than any other player on the roster was good coaching. He then received some of the worst position coaching available in the league.

I find it a positive that these new coaches who know what they are doing and have personally evaluated his play believe in him and are making the effort to bring him along. I've noticed that many people believe that most of our players will benefit from the new coaching staff. I think so too, especially those players who needed it the most.

MorKnolle
06-26-2006, 07:59 PM
Carr's remarks here were in direct response to a question about how the rookie tackles were doing, if they were getting any snaps ? To which Carr said
Winston was seeing some action, and added that Spencer was to and then made the additional comment about how Spencer impressed in some plays
against Mario, i.e. the "stalemate comment".
Those are the only three names that came up (in Carr's remarks about play
between OLine vs DLine personnel). And since Mario has been playing exclusively on the strong side, I don't think any of this even involved Wand's side of the center.

Mario is playing strongside DE, but he is not staying on one particular side of the field, he is always on whatever the strong side of the offensive formation is, so if the TE is lined up on Mario's side the defensive front 7 switch around and Mario and the SLB line up on that side.

The one thing new maybe is that Spencer is getting some time in at RT (and not LT where Wand plays). If we are going to indulge ourselves and jump to conclusions, how about this one ? Maybe they see Spencer as the guy that can help them at RT more than Winston, and Winston may actually end up at guard. Alot of people feel that Spencer is more of a natural tackle than
Winston, while Winston on the other hand is more suited for guard.

Spencer has been playing LT, Winston has been playing RT. While Spencer seems more like the prototypical RT and Winston seems more like the prototypical LT, I have an idea on why they are on the sides they are on. The offense seemed to be running a lot of playaction bootlegs where the QB rolls out to the right side, so they'd generally want the quicker OT on that side. Just a thought on that, but Spencer has been at LT and Winston at RT.

beerlover
06-27-2006, 09:19 AM
Spencer may end up being the steal of the draft if he starts, plays and solidifies the Left Side of the Texans offenensive line, should we all not agree this would be a good thing? Alot of us also thought Winston would be a RT in the NFL due to his mobility & size, but for the Texans to have drafted both is just nothing short of amazing. Carr seems impressed with all 40 new Texans in camp, now if Carr is the most improved....

Runner
06-27-2006, 09:32 AM
Thank you. Spencer has zero potential if he is getting beat even by an exceptional rookie consistantly. Folks, a little perspective--a great, fantastic, extraordinary pass rusher in the NFL doesn't average 1 sack per game, i.e. 1 sack out of 65 or so plays. Spencer can statelmate Mario on 62 plays and lose out on 3 and have a bad day. Keep things in perspective.

Wand was asked about Mario during an interview on 790 last week. He didn't stop with the usual comments about Mario's obvious size, strength, and speed. Wand specifically added that for a rookie Mario is very good with his hands and keeps his body low during play.

It bodes well for the Texans that Mario's technique is ahead of the usual NFL learning curve.

Kaiser Toro
06-27-2006, 10:20 AM
Wand was asked about Mario during an interview on 790 last week. He didn't stop with the usual comments about Mario's obvious size, strength, and speed. Wand specifically added that for a rookie Mario is very good with his hands and keeps his body low during play.

It bodes well for the Texans that Mario's technique is ahead of the usual NFL learning curve.

Not lost on me is that Wand has either found his voice or is comfortbale once again speaking at a techinque level. I do not have my finger on the pulse, but it reeks of Sherman's influence.

nunusguy
06-27-2006, 11:22 AM
Mario is playing strongside DE, but he is not staying on one particular side of the field, he is always on whatever the strong side of the offensive formation is, so if the TE is lined up on Mario's side the defensive front 7 switch around and Mario and the SLB line up on that side.
Spencer has been playing LT, Winston has been playing RT. While Spencer seems more like the prototypical RT and Winston seems more like the prototypical LT, I have an idea on why they are on the sides they are on. The offense seemed to be running a lot of playaction bootlegs where the QB rolls out to the right side, so they'd generally want the quicker OT on that side. Just a thought on that, but Spencer has been at LT and Winston at RT.
Morknolle, it sounds like you're privy to some info that I'm not, perhaps you've
had the opportunity to attend some of the practices the Texans just concluded ? But I appreciate your info on the subject.
At any rate, its well known that Kubiak is making widespread use of TEs in the
Texans offense, just as his former team did of which he freely admits is
the prototype offense for the Texans O. Its to include a lot of double TE sets,
and if they've got some unbalanced line formations with the TE on the left
side, guess that shouldn't surprise anybody, certainly not me.
On your observations about the rook tackles, a big knock on Winston playing
left or right tackle is his relatively short reach, which many feel would be
a significant disadvantage for him to successfully protect the edge, though others say that can be overcome by his superiory athleticism. Spencer apparently has no such disadvantage, while also being very athletic.

Runner
06-27-2006, 11:41 AM
It was discussed during the OTAs that the Texans have been moving the TE from side to side even in one TE sets. This was during a discussion if Mario was a weak or strong side end, because he had been playing both left and right end.

Anyway, as stated Winston and Spencer have been locked into RT and LT respectively during pre-season. So far it looks like both have been excellent third round picks. Some say that Winston is a first round talent (some go so far as to say even better than Ferguson), but I think that is stretching it a bit. I don't think every team in the NFL missed him twice. Still, they are both very, very good values for where we got them.

It appears to many practice observers/participants that they both need some seasoning to be NFL ready, as many o-lineman do when they come out of college. I personally expect them to have limited playing time this year barring injury to other players and really come into their own in their second seasons. Others think one or both will earn starting spots very quickly this year.

If one steps back and looks at a 5 year plan for the Texans, our o-line looks like it could grow into a strength as our young players (Pitts, Wand, Hodgdon, Spencer, Winston) develop as a unit and our older veterans hand over the reins.

nunusguy
06-27-2006, 12:08 PM
It was discussed during the OTAs that the Texans have been moving the TE from side to side even in one TE sets. This was during a discussion if Mario was a weak or strong side end, because he had been playing both left and right end.
If one steps back and looks at a 5 year plan for the Texans, our o-line looks like it could grow into a strength as our young players (Pitts, Wand, Hodgdon, Spencer, Winston) develop as a unit and our older veterans hand over the reins.
Well then I guess I missed that, but thanks. But yea, it would be consistant
for Mario to move to one side or the other depending on where the TE is in
an unbalanced formation. Certainly more logical than staying fixed on just one
side, ignoring TE movement.
That's a tantalizing OL for the longer term, maybe things fall in place for us and this group does come together ?

NATHANHALE
06-27-2006, 06:25 PM
"If one steps back and looks at a 5 year plan for the Texans, our o-line looks like it could grow into a strength as our young players (Pitts, Wand, Hodgdon, Spencer, Winston) develop as a unit and our older veterans hand over the reins."

Why in the world do we want to start talking about another 5 yr plan? With the avg career of an NFL player around 6 yrs, I think few teams support the 'gel theory' anymore. Heck, the salary cap itself dictates a limitation on high paid veterans with longevity, so more than ever now 'most' players don't have the chance to develope over years and years, especially on the same team.

And, teams will always have a 'mix' of vets and newbies--that is a given--sitting around and waiting on them to 'gel' is not.

TwinSisters
06-27-2006, 06:48 PM
On Gel:

I was thinking that at first too when I saw the 5 year plan presented, but I just changed my stance. IF Kubiak is trying to install the same type of Zone Blocking game in Houston that was in Denver, it takes time perfect with the same group of guys.

Myself I attribute most of the ZBS breakdowns in Houston to this reason. Injuries would break up practice time and waste reps.

If you look at Denver's line they do not have a lot of FA activity in it. ( for the Starters )

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1232

And the primary reason is Denver’s long-ago embrace of the zone blocking scheme. The Broncos’ five starters have never played anywhere else and have a combined 33 seasons of experience, led by 11-year veteran center Tom Nalen, who has been selected to five Pro Bowls. The star power is up front, and the Broncos know their scheme better than anyone else.

this is old, but still sheds some light on the plan ( or what the plan MIGHT be )

Runner
06-27-2006, 08:50 PM
"If one steps back and looks at a 5 year plan for the Texans, our o-line looks like it could grow into a strength as our young players (Pitts, Wand, Hodgdon, Spencer, Winston) develop as a unit and our older veterans hand over the reins."

Why in the world do we want to start talking about another 5 yr plan? With the avg career of an NFL player around 6 yrs, I think few teams support the 'gel theory' anymore. Heck, the salary cap itself dictates a limitation on high paid veterans with longevity, so more than ever now 'most' players don't have the chance to develope over years and years, especially on the same team.

And, teams will always have a 'mix' of vets and newbies--that is a given--sitting around and waiting on them to 'gel' is not.

Who said anything about gellin' or waiting for 5 years for them to start being good? I guess I wasn't very clear or you are just spinning what I said to make your own point.

If you look at other posts by me, I have stated the line will be good this year and as they play together they will get better and better. Over the next 5 years they could easily be a very strong unit even if we lose one or two players, because we are starting to build depth. My post just indicates my belief that they will continue to get better and be a strength for our team (implied: rather than just adequate).

There will always be a mix of younger players - in just 2-3 years Pitts and Wand will be "grizzled veterans", Spencer, Winston, and Hodgdon will be starting into their primes, and we'll have new rookies to bring along. I've also stated my belief that our starters this year will remain how they are lined up now - Wand, Pitts, Flanagan, McKinney, Weigert. That sounds like a mix of old and young to me. Good o-lineman have some of the longest careers in the NFL, so building for the future isn't all that outlandish an idea.

I'd much prefer the route we are taking than getting a bunch of players with a couple of years left in the tank just because they'd be good for one year - maybe. I plan on rooting for the Texans in 5 years - I don't want to completely rebuild the line every couple of seasons. I don't think that would be effective.

If my previous post wasn't clear enough - mea culpa. Just replace "5 year plan" with "if we project what the Texans look like in 5 years".

threetoedpete
06-27-2006, 08:59 PM
Here we go again....

Why must we continue to debate the Carr option being picked up? If you say you're going to give the guy a chance, give the guy a chance OK? And make sure you come back and GLOAT if he fails. Now that will be the epitome of it all, all the people who will proudly rejoice in Carr failing (if he fails). I really have no idea as to why people can take such a hate-filled stance against a guy who didn't ask to be traded when HE was going through so much junk as our team's QB. He just sucked it up and marched on as if he KNEW he was the man for the job.

Pick a fight, and the rocks start flying...............

Because he isn't Vince Young .
I swallowed the hook in the Atlanta game a couple of years back. The guy can barely lift his hand to his shoulder pads and he's out there ballin'. He willed his team to victory. He found a way to get it done. He's going to win a SB for someone one day is all I know. The intangibles you always hear about ? Carr has them in spades. Hopefully the SB win will be for the Texans. Carr posts in June ? Gives the bored glass half-empty something to argue about.

Vinny
06-27-2006, 09:44 PM
The intangibles you always hear about ? Carr has them in spades. Hopefully the SB win will be for the Texans. Carr posts in June ? Gives the bored glass half-empty something to argue about.Funny how people see things differently but but I see tons of raw talent and a physical prototype in Carr but very few intangibles so far. That said, I hope he wins the Super Bowl as well.

Carr posts in June? Sure, he is the starting QB in a football crazy state.

Runner
06-27-2006, 09:50 PM
Oops - excuse me - I thought this was the o-line thread.

Kaiser Toro
06-27-2006, 09:59 PM
Oops - excuse me - I thought this was the o-line thread.

This was the o-line thread until Wonger got involved. If you just hit the back button you will be at the Bull Pen. Once you are there just go down about 5 posts, trust me it is #5. You may see Carr in the thread title along the way, but those are just troll bait. Depending on how many threads Bobo has gotten into the thread you are looking for could be 7 to 10 from the top. If you get to the Mathis should play CB thread you have definitely gone to far. :)

NATHANHALE
06-27-2006, 09:59 PM
http://nflpa.org/AboutUs/main.asp?faq=How+long+do+most+NFL+careers+last&subPage=InfoForNFLHopefuls&x=7&y=6

...sorry, I was wrong==avg career is 3 1/2 years

bayoudreamn
06-27-2006, 10:04 PM
http://nflpa.org/AboutUs/main.asp?faq=How+long+do+most+NFL+careers+last&subPage=InfoForNFLHopefuls&x=7&y=6

...sorry, I was wrong==avg career is 3 1/2 years

I think they need to take out the people who sign and never make the first season. Because of the size of preseason rosters this avg-career stat is very misleading, I think.

Vinny
06-27-2006, 10:10 PM
I think they need to take out the people who sign and never make the first season. Because of the size of preseason rosters this avg-career stat is very misleading, I think.How many original Texans are still on the team from the opening day roster? There is a big turnover of rosters every 5 years or so.

bayoudreamn
06-27-2006, 10:12 PM
How many original Texans are still on the team from the opening day roster? There is a big turnover of rosters every 5 years or so.

Whether they are on this team or not doesn't affect the stat. The stat is about tenure in the nfl....regardless of team affiliation

Runner
06-27-2006, 10:14 PM
How many original Texans are still on the team from the opening day roster? There is a big turnover of rosters every 5 years or so.

Yes, but successful teams have some stability with many - not all - of their good players. Good being defined in this case as (better than average = 3.5 year career). Successful o-lineman also tend to have longer careers than some other positions.

I could be wrong - I'm to lazy to look up stats right now - is infantrycak around?

Vinny
06-27-2006, 10:17 PM
Whether they are on this team or not doesn't affect the stat. The stat is about tenure in the nfl....regardless of team affiliation
I just know that the turnover rate is faster than most people think since the fans tend to latch on to the stars. For every star there are a ton of marginal players who come and go.

bayoudreamn
06-27-2006, 10:27 PM
For every star there are a ton of marginal players who come and go.

That's all I'm saying.....right there. I think the 3.5 yr stat is heavily weighted by that point. The rest of what was said I'm fine with.

the wonger need food
06-28-2006, 08:51 AM
This was the o-line thread until Wonger got involved.

I thought that we needed a little more discussion around the face of the franchise. I'm putting a self-imposed moratorium on myself... no more comments on Davey Franchise until August 13. Well, maybe August 12, depending on how late I leave Reliant that night.

Kaiser Toro
06-28-2006, 08:55 AM
I thought that we needed a little more discussion around the face of the franchise. I'm putting a self-imposed moratorium on myself... no more comments on Davey Franchise until August 13. Well, maybe August 12, depending on how late I leave Reliant that night.

That was not a dig on you, you just got wrapped in a message board soliloquy. I do not know if I have started a Carr thread in over a year, but when people start spouting off Elway and Favre comparisions it is just to hard to resist not to get back in the ring. They just keep pulling me back in.

TwinSisters
06-28-2006, 09:06 AM
they just updated the "face of the Franchise" in the Academy Sports Texans Select Player Highlight section.

gone is the stoner west coast "Bush" look for a more strong chinned full body hair executive presentation.

Obviously proof that Kubiak is turning Carr around.

bigbrewster2000
06-28-2006, 09:18 AM
Has everyone forgotten the Man Law so quickly? I will fix this um, ok David Carr blah blah blah blah blah...... We shall see....

Runner
06-28-2006, 09:22 AM
This was the o-line thread until Wonger got involved. If you just hit the back button you will be at the Bull Pen. Once you are there just go down about 5 posts, trust me it is #5. You may see Carr in the thread title along the way, but those are just troll bait. Depending on how many threads Bobo has gotten into the thread you are looking for could be 7 to 10 from the top. If you get to the Mathis should play CB thread you have definitely gone to far. :)

Ok. Found it. I think.

thunderkyss
06-28-2006, 06:56 PM
This is silly....... here, on the messageboard, we can criticize the president of the united states, but not the team QB.....

New_Texans
06-28-2006, 07:01 PM
This is silly....... here, on the messageboard, we can criticize the president of the united states, but not the team QB.....

Well the President does control a lot of factors in our lives and we vote to have him in their while with the Texan's QB hes just a football player on a team that had no offensive line and has had a losing record for his 4 years now on an expansion team that had some little things go wrong for them.

Double Barrel
06-28-2006, 07:13 PM
This is silly....... here, on the messageboard, we can criticize the president of the united states, but not the team QB.....

Well, you can criticize both, but you just have to be prepard to defend your criticism.

Plus, at least we have the illusion of getting to pick our President. No such luck with our QB. That's a dictatorial process where King Kubiak reigns supreme.

texan279
06-28-2006, 07:30 PM
Well, you can criticize both, but you just have to be prepard to defend your criticism.

Plus, at least we have the illusion of getting to pick our President. No such luck with our QB. That's a dictatorial process where King Kubiak reigns supreme.

All hail King Kubiak! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

bigTEXan8
06-28-2006, 10:45 PM
I hope DC can put together a season that most people kind of hoped for when he was drafted. Maybe with an improved defense to give them the ball in better field position...? You never know.

bayoudreamn
06-29-2006, 12:33 AM
I hope DC can put together a season that most people kind of hoped for when he was drafted. Maybe with an improved defense to give them the ball in better field position...? You never know.

There's a video on the news page of an interview with Carr about a month after Kubiak came onboard. I watched it at that time, but I played it again a few minutes ago. It's a good video to see again right now because if you pay attention closely to all the questions and Carr's responses you'll find yourself getting a much better feel for these coaches and how they run this thing. Especially with all the transactions and information we've gotten since the video was made.

The one thing Carr said that was really vague was a comment about the 2-14 season and "effort." He didn't actually say the team wasn't making an effort but he said something about not being able to have a 2-14 record if you're giving 110% everyday. He also say the team "played well below their ability" last year. I replayed that part to make sure I heard what he said accurately. I just really got a feeling that there's alot he felt about last year he won't say and I think the whole team is that way. It just gives you a glimpse inside.

bayoudreamn
06-29-2006, 12:34 AM
There's a video on the news page of an interview with Carr about a month after Kubiak came onboard. I watched it at that time, but I played it again a few minutes ago. It's a good video to see again right now because if you pay attention closely to all the questions and Carr's responses you'll find yourself getting a much better feel for these coaches and how they run this thing. Especially with all the transactions and information we've gotten since the video was made.

The one thing Carr said that was really vague was a comment about the 2-14 season and "effort." He didn't actually say the team wasn't making an effort but he said something about not being able to have a 2-14 record if you're giving 110% everyday. He also say the team "played well below their ability" last year. I replayed that part to make sure I heard what he said accurately. I just really got a feeling that there's alot he felt about last year he won't say and I think the whole team is that way. It just gives you a glimpse inside.

The title of the video is "Carr showing confidence...." or something like that

GP
06-29-2006, 01:23 AM
This is silly....... here, on the messageboard, we can criticize the president of the united states, but not the team QB.....

We have almost 500 posts on a topic that is clearly "debating/criticizing/defending" the QB.

Sorry, but your attempt to martyr yourself is laughable.

Oh, I forgot. You're not "criticizing" Carr. You're "glad" that Kubiak and a few of the fans here are finally seeing that Carr hasn't played to his potential and needs to improve to where he should be.

:rolleyes:

GP
06-29-2006, 01:25 AM
Can we lock this thread up?

I think it's reached its end.

Anytime President Bush gets mixed into a thread, I think that's a good clue that we're all tapped out.

:hunter: :chicken: :crutch:

Brandon420tx
06-29-2006, 11:06 AM
:shoot: Finally a Carr thread I wanted to post on but got halfway through the 3rd page when I realized it was 23 pages long..... Damn my freaking new job that takes me away from my precious texans news.... oh well, kill thread

TEXANRED
06-29-2006, 11:13 AM
Can we lock this thread up?

I think it's reached its end.

Anytime President Bush gets mixed into a thread, I think that's a good clue that we're all tapped out.

:hunter: :chicken: :crutch:
Why? Another one would pop up later. Just like roach's.

Thanks Tkyss.

thunderkyss
06-29-2006, 11:59 AM
We have almost 500 posts on a topic that is clearly "debating/criticizing/defending" the QB.

Sorry, but your attempt to martyr yourself is laughable.

Oh, I forgot. You're not "criticizing" Carr. You're "glad" that Kubiak and a few of the fans here are finally seeing that Carr hasn't played to his potential and needs to improve to where he should be.

:rolleyes:

martyr myself??

& make no mistake about it, I am, criticizing Carr... no quotation marks.

Can we lock this thread up?

I think it's reached its end.

Anytime President Bush gets mixed into a thread, I think that's a good clue that we're all tapped out.

:hunter: :chicken: :crutch:

but you don't have a problem posting in it....

it would have made more sense, if you'd have posted this before your post previous to it...... even more sense, to have edited your previous post, and replace it's contents with this one........ but it's not the same unless you can take a shot at me first right??

Why? Another one would pop up later. Just like roach's.

Thanks Tkyss.

You're welcome....... or are you being Sarcastic....

23 pages.....

hmmmmmm...... I wonder what the fans want to talk about??

including you guys......

infantrycak
06-29-2006, 12:34 PM
martyr myself??


Yes. It is ridiculous for you to keep on making posts like the one above acting as if the MB doesn't tolerate criticism of Carr. Carr has received criticism each of the last couple off-seasons and had a thread dedicated to the subject after every game last year. There have been dozens of threads of debate over Carr in the last few months alone with about an equal number of optimistic and pessimistic Carr opinions. For goodness sake, the subject is so beat to death people are making jokes about it. It is silly to put up a pretense of "poor little ole me, the lone (or in a very slim minority) and oh so oppressed Carr pessimist."

There have been folks in the optimistic Carr camp who have tried the same thing, acting like the whole MB was against Carr--that's equally as silly.

NATHANHALE
06-29-2006, 04:54 PM
I'm trying to understand a few things I've read, so I figured this board is the best place to get some help. First, there have been several statements that Carr ran one of the most complicated offenses in the NFL, that more was asked of Carr than virtually every other QB. Complicated offense? Carr (first 12 games) had 2 primary receivers in AJ and DD and-over a 16 game season-DD probally would have been the teams leading receiver or close to it. We ran 1 back at a time and we had virtually no audibles and everyone knew what those audibles were--we avg 4.2 rushing (not bad) and a about a yd more than that per pass. So, would someone please explain to me what was so complicated about this offense that is supposed to have asked so much more of Carr than other QBs?

Too, Carr has never run an offense before like Kubiak is installing this year. Carr has always been a drop back passer (except in the pros when forced to run), avg not even a yd rushing his SR yr and even had over 30 sacks that yr.
I woukd think this offense will asked much more of Carr because it will be his job to read the defense and find the open receiver that has been touted that will be there on every play. Too, he will be asked to move around to throw by design instead of by necessity. Certainly, this is not an offense IMO that has been designed around anything Carr has done in the past, but the bonus for Carr should come from the upgrade in players around him and-most of all-the coaching. However, more than ever, good play from Carr is crucial...

hollywood_texan
06-29-2006, 05:35 PM
There have been dozens of threads of debate over Carr in the last few months alone with about an equal number of optimistic and pessimistic Carr opinions. For goodness sake, the subject is so beat to death people are making jokes about it.

This is why we need the Men of the Square Table to issue a "Man Law."

TEXANRED
06-29-2006, 06:11 PM
You're welcome....... or are you being Sarcastic....

23 pages.....

hmmmmmm...... I wonder what the fans want to talk about??

including you guys......

Sarcastic.................is a fun, playfull, non mean, non hurtfull kinda way. My brand of humor. Grew up a big Carlin fan. I think that is were I get it from.:tease:

GP
07-01-2006, 05:49 PM
:redtowel:

TwinSisters
07-01-2006, 06:00 PM
Ahh yes... David Carr.

Dave-ID Carr.

Id slave.



According to Freud, we are born with our Id. The id is an important part of our personality because as newborns, it allows us to get our basic needs met. Freud believed that the id is based on our pleasure principle. In other words, the id wants whatever feels good at the time, with no consideration for the reality of the situation.

The id doesn't care about reality, about the needs of anyone else, only its own satisfaction. If you think about it, babies are not real considerate of their parents' wishes.

I think I could be on to something new here!

TheCD
07-01-2006, 06:13 PM
Ahh yes... David Carr.

Dave-ID Carr.

Id slave.




I think I could be on to something new here!



As a psych. major I can tell you that Sigmund Freud was a total crackpot. Today, we don't take anything he suggested seriously. But rather, we see him as a leader in the psychology/psychiatry field. The two men who studied under him, Alfred Adler and Carl Jung (Pronounced Young), are seen as the first two who really contributed significant knowledge towards our field.


P.S. Sigmund Freud was a Coke addict and also tried to treat his patients with it, too!

TwinSisters
07-01-2006, 06:31 PM
As a psych. major I can tell you that Sigmund Freud was a total crackpot.

Ah very good then! You know then that pyschology is far from a unified field of study? Hope so.

But let us not debate psychology, but rather the patient. As a student, what do you believe makes the Carr mind tick? What is missing? What does the Carr mind need to get back on track? Cocaine is forbidden, so we will have to strike that one off the list.

Would you concur that we have a Dave-Id mind that needs to develop into Dav-Ego? What happened to the Super-Dave-ego?

Actually let's ask another question... Why do you think Dave never asked to be traded?

texan279
07-01-2006, 07:32 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/endthread.gif

TheCD
07-01-2006, 08:05 PM
Ah very good then! You know then that pyschology is far from a unified field of study? Hope so.

But let us not debate psychology, but rather the patient. As a student, what do you believe makes the Carr mind tick? What is missing? What does the Carr mind need to get back on track? Cocaine is forbidden, so we will have to strike that one off the list.

Would you concur that we have a Dave-Id mind that needs to develop into Dav-Ego? What happened to the Super-Dave-ego?

Actually let's ask another question... Why do you think Dave never asked to be traded?



I agree...I hope you're just doing this to end this thread, because if so...It works. Because you're lack of understanding of psychology is quite laughable.

nunusguy
07-01-2006, 08:11 PM
As a psych. major I can tell you that Sigmund Freud was a total crackpot.
Psychoanalysis isn't a big deal anymore ?

NATHANHALE
07-01-2006, 08:55 PM
Ah very good then! You know then that pyschology is far from a unified field of study? Hope so.

But let us not debate psychology, but rather the patient. As a student, what do you believe makes the Carr mind tick? What is missing? What does the Carr mind need to get back on track? Cocaine is forbidden, so we will have to strike that one off the list.

Would you concur that we have a Dave-Id mind that needs to develop into Dav-Ego? What happened to the Super-Dave-ego?

Actually let's ask another question... Why do you think Dave never asked to be traded?

Traded!! You've got to be kidding. He's got a 'cake walk' here. What would he gain by asking to be traded? 16 QBs were drafted in '02, with 8 still in the league and only 2 of those 8 with the same team (Carr,Garrard). So, Carr is the only starting QB from the '02 draft with the team that drafted him, meaning most other teams put their QBs on a 'short leash.' I think Carr was smart to stay put, greatly increasing his chances for longetivity despite so-so numbers.

thunderkyss
07-02-2006, 01:09 AM
Traded!! You've got to be kidding. He's got a 'cake walk' here. What would he gain by asking to be traded? 16 QBs were drafted in '02, with 8 still in the league and only 2 of those 8 with the same team (Carr,Garrard). So, Carr is the only starting QB from the '02 draft with the team that drafted him, meaning most other teams put their QBs on a 'short leash.' I think Carr was smart to stay put, greatly increasing his chances for longetivity despite so-so numbers.

That Garard had a heck of a year didn't he??

texan279
07-02-2006, 02:04 AM
Traded!! You've got to be kidding. He's got a 'cake walk' here. What would he gain by asking to be traded? 16 QBs were drafted in '02, with 8 still in the league and only 2 of those 8 with the same team (Carr,Garrard). So, Carr is the only starting QB from the '02 draft with the team that drafted him, meaning most other teams put their QBs on a 'short leash.' I think Carr was smart to stay put, greatly increasing his chances for longetivity despite so-so numbers.

You think the pounding Carr has taken the last 4 years was a cake walk?

NATHANHALE
07-02-2006, 02:38 AM
You think the pounding Carr has taken the last 4 years was a cake walk?

...about a third of the pounding was Carrs fault and he was paid $30 million plus for less than stellar production that has been blamed on that pounding and everything else people can think of--would other teams have kept him and bought into the 'excuse' game? Now, he gets a nice extension that is based on potential, though some on the board argue the money is not "Peyton's" kind of money (and why should it be). This has got to be the year we see what we have in Carr...Yeah, you're right, he's taken a pounding with the Texans---took one in college, too.

TwinSisters
07-02-2006, 06:57 AM
I agree...I hope you're just doing this to end this thread, because if so...It works. Because you're lack of understanding of psychology is quite laughable.

Not really wanting to end the thread as much as push it in a new direction. Maybe I need to start another Carr thread just for 'why Dave hasn't asked to be traded?'. If you were David Carr, would you ask to be traded?

As for the rest of it... I would say I pretty much consider everyone that hangs out here sorta like family. From Hulk to Vinny to the inlaw Cowboy lovers ( not that there is anything wrong with that ), each is afforded a certain seat in the Houston Texans' arena. And to each there is a certain particular view and vantage point. While I am not exactly what you would call an old cooter, I can lay claim to having a steady shooting hand. So as an upper classman to a freshman major, take this pearl for what it is worth little brother; It is usually wiser to know what you are laughing at, before you laugh at it.

Psyschology in the NFL is alive and well

NFL teams rely on psychological testing to varying degrees when evaluating draft prospects. Some just don't believe in them. Others swear by them. Colts President Bill Polian credits the Missouri-based Troutwine & Associates psychological consulting firm for helping the Colts pick Peyton Manning instead of Ryan Leaf with the No. 1 pick in the 1998 draft. Manning is a potential Hall of Famer while Leaf, the No. 2 pick in 1998, is one of the biggest busts in the history of the draft.

Troutwine & Associates has developed psychological profiles for about 20 teams over the past 20 years. Most teams share the services of psychological consulting firms.

http://www.johnfmurray.com/News.aspx?id=437

Wannstedt hired one to turn his team around... if we start see Carr refusing to remove his helmet during an interview after a game, we can say we might have a problem!

So it's not exactly what you would call a dead issue.

TheCD
07-02-2006, 10:14 AM
So as an upper classman to a freshman major, take this pearl for what it is worth little brother; It is usually wiser to know what you are laughing at, before you laugh at it.

Psyschology in the NFL is alive and well


Thank you for ridiculing the field of Psychology and then turning around and saying it's a good thing to have in the NFL. You make a lot of sense.


P.S. I'm obviously not a freshmen, just look at my age in my info...Jr. going strong and soon to be in Grad School, thank you very much. I assure you that when I finally get to open my practice in Houston you'll be the first person I treat, if you so desire...

infantrycak
07-02-2006, 10:19 AM
Maybe I need to start another Carr thread just for 'why Dave hasn't asked to be traded?'. If you were David Carr, would you ask to be traded?

You can if you want, but there really isn't any information to base an opinion on (for example we don't know that he didn't--in fact he did exercise his option to void the last 3 years of his contract--the $8 mil bought those years back)--what you are going to get is folks who are anti-Carr saying because he knew he sucked and couldn't get a job elsewhere and pro-Carr people saying because he is loyal and believes in himself and this team. In the absense of anything to go on--folks are going to fill in their existing beliefs.

TwinSisters
07-02-2006, 10:49 AM
TheCD,

I am not saying it is good or bad. I pulled that article out just to validate talking about psychology with football and David Carr. As to say ... Look, you cannot knock pyschology off as a non-football issue that ends a thread. The underlying meaning, that I am feeding along with it, is that pyschology is a deeply divided field in study and in public opinion. You see two points presented in the article... the Colts and Manning and then the coach at the end talking about what rubbish it is.

For myself I was just "typing out loud"... I saw David and then keyed on the ID to find something new. It's funny. ( I think so )
---

Mr.Infantrycak

yes.

yes.

And yes.

Let me think about it some more then...

AH! I wonder if one of his incentives or options was 'games started'? ... or maybe not. That's alright though... with another FULL MONTH to go, I imagine I will think of something.

NATHANHALE
07-02-2006, 03:15 PM
I may be wrong (not the first time) but I think most posters fail to realize that Carr's problems/bad habits were not developed in the NFL but-instead-existed before he became a pro. These include (1) propensity for sacks (2) holding onto the ball too long (3) focusing on his target (4) not spreading the ball around (5) poor pocket management and (6) not throwing the ball away. In college, Carr had one 'big' year-his senior year-with numbers that helped to hide these problems but the clues are still there. First, not too many QB's are sacked over 30 times in one season but there is more-what do you think Carr was doing when he rushed 94 times for 67 yds his sr yr? IMO, he was avoiding the pass rush/getting sacked. Why didn't he just throw the ball away? Carr completed 344 passes in '01, with 189 of those passes going to 2 receivers (55%) and those same rec accounting for 62% of his passing yds (3000/4839) and over 54% of his passing TDs (25/46). Manning had 5 receivers with over 100 receptions during his college career, which-of course-was longer than Carrs.

In the pros,however-with the much better athletes-Carrs college tendencies are magnified. And, without question, Capers and his bunch did little to 'steer' Carr in a better direction. Now, Kubiak enters the picture with his new (to the Texans) offense. Ironically, this new offense is dependent upon Carr's 'historical' weaknesses (outlined above) being eliminated. The QB in this offense is (1) not just a pocket passer (2) must make quick decions reading the defense (3) determine the open receiver (4) release the ball quickly to that receiver (4) avoid the rush/sacks (5) manage the time of the play/clock, etc. These are not Carr's strength, so it will be interesting to see if Carr can succeed in this offense. Kubuak made a comment that is beginning to make more and more sense when he said (1) Carr is the most improved player on the team but (2) still has a long way to go to get ready. Kubiak also said he likes to coach to a 'players strength,' but I'm not sure how this will play out in Carr's situation.

Absolutely, Carr has the biggest challenge of his football career this year and here's hoping he can pull it off..:highfive: