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jmerog
06-15-2006, 04:43 PM
Former houston LT, Marcus spears was just on 610 and had some interesing points about Carr, Wand. He was High on David as far as his toughness and character and said he was a good teammate. He pointed out that Davis kept getting up and didn't throw his teammates under the bus in the media as some QB's have. He noted that Seth Wand has the physical attributes to be a good LT but said He questions his meanness. I think the wording was that someone needed to put some gunpowder in his food. He said he needed to play with more attitude but He Could be good.

El Tejano
06-15-2006, 05:00 PM
I think Spears pointed out something great about Carr. How many QBs these days who are struggling under the same conditions as Carr would have the patience and professionalism to handle it the way Carr has.

powerfuldragon
06-15-2006, 05:10 PM
we all know that carr is tough and honorable... we just need to see how well he can quarterback an offense. we should find out this season.

jmerog
06-15-2006, 05:14 PM
Its still worth mentioning when a former teammate (who has nothing to lose/gain) goes on air and makes a point of saying it.

Runner
06-15-2006, 05:22 PM
Its still worth mentioning when a former teammate (who has nothing to lose/gain) goes on air and makes a point of saying it.

Do you mean no one should say "what do you expect him to say?"

Double Barrel
06-15-2006, 05:28 PM
I heard the interview, and he's a nice guy. He did have some good insight into DC and Wand, as mentioned.

Its still worth mentioning when a former teammate (who has nothing to lose/gain) goes on air and makes a point of saying it.

yep, that's true.

But he does want a job with the Texans media department, so what did you expect him to say? ;) (just kidding, Runner!)

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 05:30 PM
I think Spears pointed out something great about Carr. How many QBs these days who are struggling under the same conditions as Carr would have the patience and professionalism to handle it the way Carr has.

I am going to interchange some words from the quote above,

How many head coaches these days who are struggling under the same conditions as Capers would have had the patience and professionalism to handle it the way Capers did.

How fart did Capers get that?

It's about W's and performing, that's it and that's that. Why is it that Terrell Owens can still play in the NFL? The guy is a complete jerk and I am sure no one will argue that point.

I am tired of all this Carr crap, particularly if he is a nice guy, family man, or whatever. He can either win games or not. There are no excuses in football. He isn't paid millions to be a good or nice guy.

jmerog
06-15-2006, 05:34 PM
in his case, yes.

I'm not trying to express an opinion on Carr with this thread. Just reporting on an interview I just heard and noting that Spears is now retired and has no reason not to honestly state his opinion. He also said he expected Kubiacs scheme to work well here and help the team and Carr especially succeed.

He said he thought it strange that he and wand kept swapping out at LT all during games. HE said one would be in for running plays while the other was in for pass plays. I dont remember which was which, maybe someone else will.
That does seem goofy as it would let defenses know whats coming.

BUT

He played in the 7-9 season, which was our best so maybe it worked ok.--naah

Double Barrel
06-15-2006, 05:36 PM
Spears on passing plays and Wand on running plays.

Runner
06-15-2006, 05:38 PM
But he does want a job with the Texans media department, so what did you expect him to say? ;) (just kidding, Runner!)

Good one.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 05:40 PM
Spears on passing plays and Wand on running plays.

Yes, that was just stupid. The AM guys were calling that during the games.

Runner
06-15-2006, 05:41 PM
Spears on passing plays and Wand on running plays.

They did that for one game about 3/4 of the way through the 2004 season. I think it was the final touch (along with which TE was in) to fully announcing our intentions to the defense. It was a failed experiment and they went back to Wand full time.

Hulk75
06-15-2006, 05:45 PM
I am going to interchange some words from the quote above,

How many head coaches these days who are struggling under the same conditions as Capers would have had the patience and professionalism to handle it the way Capers did.

How fart did Capers get that?

It's about W's and performing, that's it and that's that. Why is it that Terrell Owens can still play in the NFL? The guy is a complete jerk and I am sure no one will argue that point.

I am tired of all this Carr crap, particularly if he is a nice guy, family man, or whatever. He can either win games or not. There are no excuses in football. He isn't paid millions to be a good or nice guy.
Dude whats your problem with the guy, did he take your girlfriend in high school, is it because he has everything you want............HATER IN THE HOUSE, some people have some consrtuctive things to say about the guy, you just come off as angry and pissed at the world when talking about this dude.

Would it be different if he was a rude guy that tossed people under the bus, yelled at his teammates, beat his wife, killed some body and O he wins games thats all that matters.

Yes his record as a QB is not were it should be but what is Andre Johnsons record as a starter for the Texans and Chester Pitts, Steve McKinney, Domanick Davis, All I am saying for the 1,000,000,000 time is that he could not do it by himself. People on your team should be there to make the catch for you in the clutch or throw just one more block and give him just a few more seconds to get the ball off..............

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 05:56 PM
It's about W's and performing, that's it and that's that. Why is it that Terrell Owens can still play in the NFL? The guy is a complete jerk and I am sure no one will argue that point.

I am tired of all this Carr crap, particularly if he is a nice guy, family man, or whatever. He can either win games or not. There are no excuses in football. He isn't paid millions to be a good or nice guy.

That he doesn't slag his teammates is a football issue.

I know Captain Obvious should be saying this but here goes:

Football is a team sport.

What rookie would have done well with this scheme, a offensive line with people playing outta position and learning the position on the fly, and all baby receivers, running backs, and most of the tight ends?

As you can tell with what has been said at camp, having veteran leadership really helps player development. We haven't had much of any of that--veterans on the offensive side of the ball that have had success in the league.

powerfuldragon
06-15-2006, 05:57 PM
How fart did Capers get that?

Hahahahaha... Fart.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:01 PM
Dude whats your problem with the guy, did he take your girlfriend in high school, is it because he has everything you want............HATER IN THE HOUSE, some people have some consrtuctive things to say about the guy, you just come off as angry and pissed at the world when talking about this dude.

Would it be different if he was a rude guy that tossed people under the bus, yelled at his teammates, beat his wife, killed some body and O he wins games thats all that matters.

Yes his record as a QB is not were it should be but what is Andre Johnsons record as a starter for the Texans and Chester Pitts, Steve McKinney, Domanick Davis, All I am saying for the 1,000,000,000 time is that he could not do it by himself. People on your team should be there to make the catch for you in the clutch or throw just one more block and give him just a few more seconds to get the ball off..............

You seem to be the angry one. In addition, making some reference to my dating life in high school is irrelevant to Carr, which is my point. You even go further to say Carr has everything I want. You are taking personal swipes at me and I simply expressing my point of view on Carr's play.

My point was an analogy how Capers was the same way as Carr and Capers was tossed. Why not explain that one?

Look I am sure Carr is great person from everything I have read and is a committed family guy. Which I think is a lot more admirable in life than being successful in the NFL.

But there are subtle truths to life. You either win or you don't. You have heard this one, "nice guys finish last." Both of those items are so true to the NFL.

No one, and I mean no one, gets to be successful in life at that stage by just being a good person. That is how the world works, like it or not.

So calm down and relax.

And remember this when Kubiak benches Carr, it won't be personal, it will be business! Just as my discussion of Carr.

Hulk75
06-15-2006, 06:01 PM
That he doesn't slag his teammates is a football issue.

I know Captain Obvious should be saying this but here goes:

Football is a team sport.

What rookie would have done well with this scheme, a offensive line with people playing outta position and learning the position on the fly, and all baby receivers, running backs, and most of the tight ends?

As you can tell with what has been said at camp, having veteran leadership really helps player development. We haven't had much of any of that--veterans on the offensive side of the ball that have had success in the league.
Which effects his play..........

Thank the LORD someone else said it besides me all the time...........

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:04 PM
That he doesn't slag his teammates is a football issue.

I know Captain Obvious should be saying this but here goes:

Football is a team sport.

What rookie would have done well with this scheme, a offensive line with people playing outta position and learning the position on the fly, and all baby receivers, running backs, and most of the tight ends?

As you can tell with what has been said at camp, having veteran leadership really helps player development. We haven't had much of any of that--veterans on the offensive side of the ball that have had success in the league.

Texans_Chick, you right really good stuff.

But, I am just hearing excuses about Carr. Why didn't anyone make excuses for Capers? He is just as good a guy as Carr.

Carr, needs to win period. If being a jerk along way happens, no one will care as long as he wins. That is my point.

It doesn't matter if he is nice, it is just an excuse.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:06 PM
How fart did Capers get that?



Hahahahaha... Fart.



Hahahahaha... Fart.

Yeah, I saw that when I was reading through it before I posted it and just laughed my ***** off and thought, people might do the same.

So, I didn't change it.

Glad you enjoyed. I did.

TwinSisters
06-15-2006, 06:15 PM
I am tired of all this Carr crap, particularly if he is a nice guy, family man, or whatever. He can either win games or not. There are no excuses in football. He isn't paid millions to be a good or nice guy.


I don't know... we got a long way to go yet to be getting tired. I would take a nap or maybe go watch Daryl Hannah get pried from a walnut tree to recharge. I figure at the current rate... we have around two hundred and six more threads to go on Carr before the season starts. BY then the thread rate should increase by 2 to 3 times the current amount.
---
Spears is saying the same stuff we are saying. He made a point to say he lacks a killer instinct ( or I should say has been lacking ). That's understandable. If you are always a nice guy.. well then you tend to always be a nice guy.

When a guy says you need to cut your breakfast with a little gunpowder and gasoline...thats what that means.
---

The swapping out of tackles to broadcast your play is not that big of deal by itself. If you go 3 WRs or 4 WRs.. that will broadcast a pass as well. Capers could have just as well been trying to lull the defense into playing run and then popping them with a deep pass. Don't know with the information provided... also may have never worked exactly the way they planned because of failed runs or poor pass protection, didn't get the matchups they expected, etc.

Hulk75
06-15-2006, 06:16 PM
You seem to be the angry one. In addition, making some reference to my dating life in high school is irrelevant to Carr, which is my point. You even go further to say Carr has everything I want. You are taking personal swipes at me and I simply expressing my point of view on Carr's play.

My point was an analogy how Capers was the same way as Carr and Capers was tossed. Why not explain that one?

Look I am sure Carr is great person from everything I have read and is a committed family guy. Which I think is a lot more admirable in life than being successful in the NFL.

But there are subtle truths to life. You either win or you don't. You have heard this one, "nice guys finish last." Both of those items are so true to the NFL.

No one, and I mean no one, gets to be successful in life at that stage by just being a good person. That is how the world works, like it or not.
So calm down and relax.

And remember this when Kubiak benches Carr, it won't be personal, it will be business! Just as my discussion of Carr.
I will let you think what you want, BUT that is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever read, EVERY SINGLE person that has had success has been a tricky, underminding person, a person that tricks other people to get what they want are the people that are successful in this life, a person that is willing to bend the rules is a successful person, somebody willing to lie will get what they want the most are successful............

There was someone else I was going to come to 1st when Carr starts to do well, a little what do you think of him now message, but now you will be the first, so get all your shots at him all you want, cause in 3 months it will change, cause it is the people that are the opposite of what you speak of are the TRUELY SUCCESSFUL ones in this life, so have fun for the next 3 months I will stay right out of your way.:cool:

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:18 PM
That he doesn't slag his teammates is a football issue.

I know Captain Obvious should be saying this but here goes:

Football is a team sport.

What rookie would have done well with this scheme, a offensive line with people playing outta position and learning the position on the fly, and all baby receivers, running backs, and most of the tight ends?

As you can tell with what has been said at camp, having veteran leadership really helps player development. We haven't had much of any of that--veterans on the offensive side of the ball that have had success in the league.






Which effects his play..........

Thank the LORD someone else said it besides me all the time...........

Here is the deal with all the Carr supporters, they believe Carr hasn't performed because everyone else around him didn't. Therefore, Carr is a good quarterback and should keep his job. No one will argue the talent issue on the offensive line and quality receivers outside of AJ, but it is possible Carr was more of the problem than just being held back.

For example, here is quote about McNair learning the new Ravens system,

"A confused quarterback is usually confronted with a barrage of blitzes. If he's confused about protections, that's when he's going to get whacked," Fassel said.

Apply this quote to Carr's sack problems and think about it. Carr could have really contributed more to the sack problem, basically overwhelming an already talent thin line.

Here is Kubiak's own words on Carr following the conclusion of their mini camp.

"I think he's the most improved player from this offseason," Kubiak said. "From the day we walked out here until today, I really thought he was the most improved. Yet he still has a long way to go.

"The key to David, like any other player and I've already spent a ton of time with him David's got to come back and pick up right where he left off. We can't go back and work on things that we were trying to clean up. Nobody's worked harder."

Not exactly a ringing order of endorsement for our 4-year QB veteren. Kind of sounds like he may be fighting for his job early in the season if he doesn't start off well.

So, Texans_Chick, from your post, I take that we basically have a rookie quarterback in Carr.

HJam72
06-15-2006, 06:23 PM
I am going to interchange some words from the quote above,

How many head coaches these days who are struggling under the same conditions as Capers would have had the patience and professionalism to handle it the way Capers did.

How fart did Capers get that?

It's about W's and performing, that's it and that's that. Why is it that Terrell Owens can still play in the NFL? The guy is a complete jerk and I am sure no one will argue that point.

I am tired of all this Carr crap, particularly if he is a nice guy, family man, or whatever. He can either win games or not. There are no excuses in football. He isn't paid millions to be a good or nice guy.

I would say that the difference is that there is no doubt that Caper's problems were at least half his own fault, where as Carr's problems were mostly not--bad pass blocking caused by a guard at center and rookie LTs at times, among other things, no legit #2 receiver, the fact that he'd probably have done much better with a pass catching TE, not being allowed to call his own audibles, terribly conservative and predictable play calling, too many dropped passes, etc. I know Carr has made his own mistakes, like running out of bounds, but I think most of it was others not fullfulling their duties and Capers is one of them. I think Carr will be almost shockingly better this year overall and I'll gladly eat my words if he's not.

Having said all that, it's certainly true that Carr's good attitude will not make up for a proven inability to play, especially if he tanks it this coming year (overall). This year is IT.

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 06:25 PM
Texans_Chick, you right really good stuff.

But, I am just hearing excuses about Carr. Why didn't anyone make excuses for Capers? He is just as good a guy as Carr.

Carr, needs to win period. If being a jerk along way happens, no one will care as long as he wins. That is my point.

It doesn't matter if he is nice, it is just an excuse.

Capers was in charge of the schemes and mostly it seems in charge of personnel. Carr was supposed to do what coaches say--he had no control over scheme or players picked or not picked.

There is no magic pixie dust that means that a QB can will wins if the stuff around him is no good.

And you know what, it DOES matter that he doesn't slag his teammates and mostly kept his composure during some pretty dang difficult times because he could have easily given the circumstances gone all Tim Couch. Or done any number of things that would undermine his role as a starting QB. (He has had any number of times where he could have completely fallen to pieces, and it is admirable that he has kept his stuff together as much as he was given that idiot fan put beer on his prego wife or that he was getting teed off on with the most predictable plays ever).

Yeah, nice isn't enough, but behavior does matter if you want the hope of having longterm success as a NFL QB.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:26 PM
I will let you think what you want, BUT that is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever read, EVERY SINGLE person that has had success has been a tricky, underminding person, a person that tricks other people to get what they want are the people that are successful in this life, a person that is willing to bend the rules is a successful person, somebody willing to lie will get what they want the most are successful............

There was someone else I was going to come to 1st when Carr starts to do well, a little what do you think of him now message, but now you will be the first, so get all your shots at him all you want, cause in 3 months it will change, cause it is the people that are the opposite of what you speak of are the TRUELY SUCCESSFUL ones in this life, so have fun for the next 3 months I will stay right out of your way.:cool:

There is a difference between being succesful in life and the NFL.

You are totally missing my point.

Please remember me so you can put in my face because you seem to be looking forward to it with great anticipation, which is very Christian of you I might add.

I hope the Texans succeed with or without Carr as the QB. I have merely commented on his first four years because they are argueably not even average.

You seem to believe he has been held back, I believe he has been more of the problem.

Hulk75
06-15-2006, 06:29 PM
There is a difference between being succesful in life and the NFL.

You are totally missing my point.

Please remember me so you can put in my face because you seem to be looking forward to it with great anticipation, which is very Christian of you I might add.

I hope the Texans succeed with or without Carr as the QB. I have merely commented on his first four years because they are argueably not even average.

You seem to believe he has been held back, I believe he has been more of the problem.
Cute have fun, I will see you.

Wolf
06-15-2006, 06:30 PM
Texans_Chick, you right really good stuff.

But, I am just hearing excuses about Carr. Why didn't anyone make excuses for Capers? He is just as good a guy as Carr.

Carr, needs to win period. If being a jerk along way happens, no one will care as long as he wins. That is my point.

It doesn't matter if he is nice, it is just an excuse.


Capers lost it last season.. we were on the upswing and the wheels fell off of the wagon both offensively and defensively.. Capers (along with Casserly) had 4 years to draft players and sign players that they wanted ..Capers job is to get players that "fits" his system and Casserly's job is to get the players.. it failed... also possibly was the thing where McNair said about we have to protect our QB ..well we didn't do that either.

Wolf
06-15-2006, 06:33 PM
There is a difference between being succesful in life and the NFL.

You are totally missing my point.

Please remember me so you can put in my face because you seem to be looking forward to it with great anticipation, which is very Christian of you I might add.

I hope the Texans succeed with or without Carr as the QB. I have merely commented on his first four years because they are argueably not even average.

You seem to believe he has been held back, I believe he has been more of the problem.


combination of both.. Capers philosophy is great defense, run the ball (I do like that combination BTW) yet our defense couldn't sack anyone and couldn't protect the Qb on offense.. that hurts the team.. why have an offensive philosophy like that when you have patchwork OL and you draft a QB #1 overall and a WR #3 overall.. when you are trying to be run 1st offense. putting a square peg in a round hole IMO

and yes we held Carr back IMO and with the inadequate protection Carr has bad habits and happy feet. He is still looking at the rush instead of looking downfield .. Also game hasn't slowed down for him yet.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:33 PM
Capers was in charge of the schemes and mostly it seems in charge of personnel. Carr was supposed to do what coaches say--he had no control over scheme or players picked or not picked.

There is no magic pixie dust that means that a QB can will wins if the stuff around him is no good.

And you know what, it DOES matter that he doesn't slag his teammates and mostly kept his composure during some pretty dang difficult times because he could have easily given the circumstances gone all Tim Couch. Or done any number of things that would undermine his role as a starting QB. (He has had any number of times where he could have completely fallen to pieces, and it is admirable that he has kept his stuff together as much as he was given that idiot fan put beer on his prego wife or that he was getting teed off on with the most predictable plays ever).

Yeah, nice isn't enough, but behavior does matter if you want the hope of having longterm success as a NFL QB.

As for who is in charge of schemes and Carr was held back. You can make the same excuse for the guys on the offensive line. They shouldn't be held accountable, they are only told what to do.

For some reason, everyone agrees the offensive line was thin on talent but Carr is off limits, he gets a free pass for what looks like 4 maybe 5 years.

IMO Carr has the physical abilities, but it just doesn't translate to 1st downs or even victories. He has appeared to struggle non stop. In four years, I have never seen him play and thought he was being held back, just more or less a part of the problem.

Maybe he was held back. We'll find out.

TwinSisters
06-15-2006, 06:33 PM
Yeah, nice isn't enough, but behavior does matter if you want the hope of having longterm success as a NFL QB.

That's not true. A lot of QBs are ... Most QBs are... are like coneheads.

Jeff George was not a nice guy ( 15 years ). Bradshaw was a jerk-off ( most of the time ). Boomer and Elway did not get along.

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 06:34 PM
Here is the deal with all the Carr supporters, they believe Carr hasn't performed because everyone else around him didn't. Therefore, Carr is a good quarterback and should keep his job. No one will argue the talent issue on the offensive line and quality receivers outside of AJ, but it is possible Carr was more of the problem than just being held back.

For example, here is quote about McNair learning the new Ravens system,

"A confused quarterback is usually confronted with a barrage of blitzes. If he's confused about protections, that's when he's going to get whacked," Fassel said.

Apply this quote to Carr's sack problems and think about it. Carr could have really contributed more to the sack problem, basically overwhelming an already talent thin line.

Here is Kubiak's own words on Carr following the conclusion of their mini camp.

"I think he's the most improved player from this offseason," Kubiak said. "From the day we walked out here until today, I really thought he was the most improved. Yet he still has a long way to go.

"The key to David, like any other player and I've already spent a ton of time with him David's got to come back and pick up right where he left off. We can't go back and work on things that we were trying to clean up. Nobody's worked harder."

Not exactly a ringing order of endorsement for our 4-year QB veteren. Kind of sounds like he may be fighting for his job early in the season if he doesn't start off well.

So, Texans_Chick, from your post, I take that we basically have a rookie quarterback in Carr.


I am at a loss for speech as there are so many things in your post that are just ill-conceived, strangely deduced and just plain wrong.

I can't refute it. If you hate Carr, you are going to see everything from a Carr-haters perspective. If you love Carr, you are going to see everything from a Carr-lovers perspective.

Personally, I would love to see him succeed this season, but I don't know how this is gonna work out. I figure at this point, I will trust Kubiak's assessment that he is the man.

Geez, how did I allow myself to get dragged into a thread that shouldn't have turned into yet another Carrfest.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:35 PM
Cute have fun, I will see you.

Your are such a nice guy, maybe you should follow Carr's example if you are right. Be the nice guy and take the high road.

You seem to be the opposite of what you preach regarding Carr.

Please remember me if you are right, because I am going to be laughing that you are a hypocrite.

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 06:37 PM
That's not true. A lot of QBs are ... Most QBs are... are like coneheads.

Jeff George was not a nice guy ( 15 years ). Bradshaw was a jerk-off ( most of the time ). Boomer and Elway did not get along.

Imagine what kind of career Jeff George could have had if he wasn't a jerkatola. What a waste.

Few QBs have such huge skills and great teams around them that they can afford to be donkeys.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:39 PM
I am at a loss for speech as there are so many things in your post that are just ill-conceived, strangely deduced and just plain wrong.

I can't refute it.


Is there a contridiction here?

I am wrong, but you can't explain why?

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 06:44 PM
Which effects his play..........

Thank the LORD someone else said it besides me all the time...........

I usually don't say it because it is so pointless and should be fairly obvious. It is hard to evaluate Carr's play or anyone's play on the offensive side of the ball because the offense was such a freaking cluster. How do you develop a rookie QB with a bunch of other rookies and free agent cast offs and no consistent offensive philosophy?

I Hate Carr/Love Carr threads are the ugliest and most pointless on the MB. I usually try to avoid them.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 06:44 PM
You know what is funny.

One Carr supporter is one thread taking on everyone Carr non-supporter and vice versa.

Has anyone seen this trend too?

It is really interesting.

Double Barrel
06-15-2006, 06:45 PM
Here is Kubiak's own words on Carr following the conclusion of their mini camp.

"I think he's the most improved player from this offseason," Kubiak said. "From the day we walked out here until today, I really thought he was the most improved. Yet he still has a long way to go.

"The key to David, like any other player and I've already spent a ton of time with him David's got to come back and pick up right where he left off. We can't go back and work on things that we were trying to clean up. Nobody's worked harder."

Not exactly a ringing order of endorsement for our 4-year QB veteren. Kind of sounds like he may be fighting for his job early in the season if he doesn't start off well.

Interestingly enough, there is another thread from this morning that centers on this very quote and how it has been received as a great positive by many fans. I merely asked a devil's advocate question of "what else is Kubiak going to say at this point", and many folks took exception to it.

I suppose it is all a matter of perception. If you're a Carr supporter, these are great words of encouragement towards his progress and indications of a career season coming up. If you're a Carr hater, then these are not words of a ringing endorsement (and maybe even a sign that he has to start well to keep his job).

And then if you're a realist (like me), you see some positive words about our QB's current development, but not proof that DC is going to have a Pro-Bowl year (at this point - minicamp).

infantrycak
06-15-2006, 06:48 PM
Capers was in charge of the schemes and mostly it seems in charge of personnel. Carr was supposed to do what coaches say--he had no control over scheme or players picked or not picked.

Carr, needs to win period.

Exactly--that is what makes the Capers for Carr substitution meaningless.

Hollywood--you among others have identified things Carr needs to work on. That's just fine, but when you continually want to characterize anything factoring into Carr's play at all as an excuse it just looks like hating. It is silly not to consider a player within the context he is operating. The fact that the OL schemes were bad is not an excuse--it is a consideration or factor in the overall result. The fact that the playcalling was abysmal is not an excuse--it is a consideration. This Carr has to win thing is silly--it is a team sport.

Did Elway suck in 1990 when the Broncos went 5-11?
Did Marino suck in 1988 when the Dolphins went 6-10?
Aikman in 1997 when the Cowboys went 6-10?
McNair last year going 4-12?
Manning in 2001 going 6-10?

No they were good or great QB's caught on bad teams so didn't hang up W's.

[for anybody tempted, spare me the posts acting as if I am equating Carr to any of the other QB's--no assertion is being made or implied that Carr is equal to any of the named QB's]

Wolf
06-15-2006, 06:50 PM
Interestingly enough, there is another thread from this morning that centers on this very quote and how it has been received as a great positive by many fans. I merely asked a devil's advocate question of "what else is Kubiak going to say at this point", and many folks took exception to it.

I suppose it is all a matter of perception. If you're a Carr supporter, these are great words of encouragement towards his progress and indications of a career season coming up. If you're a Carr hater, then these are not words of a ringing endorsement (and maybe even a sign that he has to start well to keep his job).

And then if you're a realist (like me), you see some positive words about our QB's current development, but not proof that DC is going to have a Pro-Bowl year (at this point - minicamp).


I agree with you DB.. At this point Kubiak hasn't burned me, so I think positively on what he is saying.. Now I had faith in Dom until the reports of how our defense was getting after it in practice, I really thought we were going to have a stingy D-line.. little did I know it was because the O-Line was worse :crutch:

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 06:54 PM
Is there a contridiction here?

I am wrong, but you can't explain why?

No contradiction.

I can't refute it because as I suggested, you will just see what you want to see. So there is no point in even trying because it would assume that you are reading for understanding versus reading to just validate your own point of view or to have an argument clinic.

For example, you said:

So, Texans_Chick, from your post, I take that we basically have a rookie quarterback in Carr.

I never said anything close to that, but because you seem to have something against Carr, through the prism of your point of view, you somehow read that into things.

Carr slam/love fests are pointless. I don't see why we need to have one of these active on every single day. He's the QB unless the coach says otherwise or he gets hurt. It is just the deal. Kubiak seemed to be high enough on him to want to pick up his bonus, so I am just gonna wait and see. I understand why he might not have succeeded in the past--you might want to characterize those things as "excuses", I might see them as just reality.

At some level it gets to be just stupid semantic games, and is just a waste of bandwidth. Seriously, I think the servers would go a lot faster if all pointless is Carr love/hate threads instantly went away. But I don't all that computer stuff, so I might be wrong on that.

I will say that from what I've seen of the offense they are planning to run this year, it should be more suited to Carr's strengths.

Wolf
06-15-2006, 06:57 PM
As far as supporting Carr I see a player that lit it up at fresno state and think if we had taken better care of the offensive side of the ball, he could have grown at the pro level.

and before the Fresno state bashing begins.. isn't that the same confernce that a couple of You-know-who's been playing too?

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 07:02 PM
Exactly--that is what makes the Capers for Carr substitution meaningless.



Actually, if you look at the posting that started this whole thing it was about being a nice guy and how that didn't benefit Capers.

It wasn't comparing in the manner you are referring to that would be meaningless.

infantrycak
06-15-2006, 07:03 PM
Actually, if you look at the posting that started this whole thing it was about being a nice guy and how that didn't benefit Capers.

It wasn't comparing in the manner you are referring to that would be meaningless.

Well I looked at it, but that wasn't what I took from it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Hulk75
06-15-2006, 07:12 PM
Your are such a nice guy, maybe you should follow Carr's example if you are right. Be the nice guy and take the high road.

You seem to be the opposite of what you preach regarding Carr.

Please remember me if you are right, because I am going to be laughing that you are a hypocrite.
..........:crying: ...........O.,..,,k.,./A/.,./.Y

TwinSisters
06-15-2006, 07:15 PM
Imagine what kind of career Jeff George could have had if he wasn't a jerkatola. What a waste.

Few QBs have such huge skills and great teams around them that they can afford to be donkeys.

eggghhh... no. Well yes, but no. At least half of the upper crust QBs have been jerks. That's all I am saying here. Not that you have to be an ... thagh.. ( vocabulary failing me ).. a supreme senior vice donkey and general leader to be good, but others have.

So you cannot in good faith say that you have to be of good character to have a long career in the NFL. You would have to have good character and be a nice guy if you didn't have the skills.

Meaning the more skills you got, the better you are, the more of a jerk you can afford to be and still play a long time in the NFL.

and the inverse would be that the less skill you have, the lesser you are, the less of a jerk you can afford to be and still play a long time in the NFL.

Can David Carr afford to be a jerk? ( not saying he should be... just asking could he afford to be one, if he so chose to be )

dat_boy_yec
06-15-2006, 07:17 PM
Actually, if you look at the posting that started this whole thing it was about being a nice guy and how that didn't benefit Capers.

It wasn't comparing in the manner you are referring to that would be meaningless.

Umm... I thought the original post mentioned Wand not having a mean streak. Something along the lines of he needs gunpowder in his cereal. You made the connection between Carr and Capers being comparable from somebody else's post and substituting the bolded material. Then you went on a semi-rampage about how we don't hold Capers accountable in the same ways as we hold Carr accountable. Well, I'll say this Capers was responsible for everybody on the team. He was the HEAD coach, in charge of those who were supposed to teach our talent and put them in a position to succeed. If Carr is so far behind you have to ask who was teaching him that he didn't learn. I don't know, Palmer and Pendry don't strike me as good teachers. Same thing with the line, how can you expect them to have any success if they don't have anybody guiding them. Capers failed because he failed to bring in the people that would condition the players to win. Carr was conditioned to be what he was, now he along with everyone else is working with new coaches and being re-conditioned. You're right, being a nice person doesn't have jack to do with success, but it doesn't hurt.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 07:24 PM
Umm... I thought the original post mentioned Wand not having a mean streak. Something along the lines of he needs gunpowder in his cereal. You made the connection between Carr and Capers being comparable from somebody else's post and substituting the bolded material. Then you went on a semi-rampage about how we don't hold Capers accountable in the same ways as we hold Carr accountable. Well, I'll say this Capers was responsible for everybody on the team. He was the HEAD coach, in charge of those who were supposed to teach our talent and put them in a position to succeed. If Carr is so far behind you have to ask who was teaching him that he didn't learn. I don't know, Palmer and Pendry don't strike me as good teachers. Same thing with the line, how can you expect them to have any success if they don't have anybody guiding them. Capers failed because he failed to bring in the people that would condition the players to win. Carr was conditioned to be what he was, now he along with everyone else is working with new coaches and being re-conditioned. You're right, being a nice person doesn't have jack to do with success, but it doesn't hurt.

Having said all that, how can you blame the offensive line? They had the same coaching as Carr.

Simple, the overall talent on the offensive line is suspect and everyone agrees on that point.

But, for some reason the same analysis seems to escape Carr.

After reading all that, McNair seems to be completely to blame. Which is probably the case.

dat_boy_yec
06-15-2006, 07:40 PM
Having said all that, how can you blame the offensive line? They had the same coaching as Carr.

Simple, the overall talent on the offensive line is suspect and everyone agrees on that point.

But, for some reason the same analysis seems to escape Carr.

After reading all that, McNair seems to be completely to blame. Which is probably the case.

I didn't blame the o-line. Wait I take that back If there was one person I had to blame though it would be Milford Brown. He blew too many blocks. I mean the way he messed up had nothing to do with schemes or technique. The guy simply turned away from the guy he was supposed to block and looked like a lost child at the Rodeo carnival. I can't believe nobody else points that out, but I'm ok now. He's gone and things will hopefully be better.

I don't think the analysis escapes Carr, there are plenty of people that can admit Carr needs to improve, at the same time though there are also many other people who want to shift the burden on Carr and it's just happened so much now that it feels like a defensive mechanism. I mean if you look at most of your posts wether you mean to or not they are very reminiscent of other Carr bashing threads.

In a sense he is. Then again he himself is no football genious, he's just a successful businessman that loves the sport and brought it back to Houston. However you have to look at his situation in a differrent manner. His purpose was to make money and he is doing that. He can't do it all alone so he hired people to help him in other areas. You have to put your trust in others to a degree to be successful. Casserly was his first hire and think what you want Capers seemed like the right decision at the time. Nobody was yelling for Capers job at the beginning of last off-season so McNair had no reason to take action at that time. Damn, sorry dude there are a lot of factors with how McNair ran the franchise and you can blame him if you want, but to me he brought football back so I have a much, much higher thresh hold for him than anybody else.

TwinSisters
06-15-2006, 07:40 PM
there is a clip on NFL.com right now about Aikman, Legends of the Game: Troy Aikman.

I would check it out and see how he is ripping into his team mates. This would be an example of what Carr is suspected of lacking and needing. This would be the reason he is said to be needing gunpowder in his wheaties.

jmerog
06-15-2006, 07:40 PM
---
Spears is saying the same stuff we are saying. He made a point to say he lacks a killer instinct ( or I should say has been lacking ). That's understandable. If you are always a nice guy.. well then you tend to always be a nice guy.

When a guy says you need to cut your breakfast with a little gunpowder and gasoline...thats what that means. ---

.
He actually said that about wand, not carr. The only HE SAID about Carr that could be negative was that he was not so much of a pocket passer as a bootleg- pass on the go- kind of guy (not that that is nesesarily negative)
He also said that David was going into his fifth year and would need to produce. basically that this was a put up or shut up year for him<--the last sentance was my re-wording. The same thing many on this board have said.

jmerog
06-15-2006, 07:45 PM
there is a clip on NFL.com right now about Aikman, Legends of the Game: Troy Aikman.

I would check it out and see how he is ripping into his team mates. This would be an example of what Carr is suspected of lacking and needing. This would be the reason he is said to be needing gunpowder in his wheaties.
Once again- He said that about Wand- not Carr. I'm not defending, simply reporting. he talked as much about wand as Carr. He was asked what he thaought about his play and if he had the skills to play LT and he talked about how wand had the size and skills but needed more intensity (the gunpowder comment)

Wolf
06-15-2006, 07:46 PM
Having said all that, how can you blame the offensive line? They had the same coaching as Carr.

Simple, the overall talent on the offensive line is suspect and everyone agrees on that point.

But, for some reason the same analysis seems to escape Carr.

After reading all that, McNair seems to be completely to blame. Which is probably the case.


same analogy can be brought in on the defense.

no defensive pass rush..worse your secondary looks
no pass blocking..worse your QB looks.

all goes hand in hand

jmerog
06-15-2006, 07:46 PM
I am not arguing carr's (pick an area). I am simply reporting accuratly what was said.

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2006, 07:55 PM
I heard the Spears interview. Comments made concerning Carr have thus far been exhausted here. So I'll take another direction..............Rather than only reading the description in some of the posts of what he said, listening to his voice and mannerisms of presentation, I got the distinct feeling that he was squirming and definitely feeling uncomfortable in trying to find genuinely encouraging remarks concerning the promise shown by Wand as the LT future of the Texans.........And I'm one that is pulling for Wand on our team, but I couldn't help from coming away from the interview somewhat uncomfortable myself.

jmerog
06-15-2006, 08:04 PM
I am at a loss for speech as there are so many things in your post that are just ill-conceived, strangely deduced and just plain wrong.
.
I had the same reaction


Geez, how did I allow myself to get dragged into a thread that shouldn't have turned into yet another Carrfest.
It was not intended to become what it has. Sorry i even started it.

jmerog
06-15-2006, 08:06 PM
I heard the Spears interview. Comments made concerning Carr have thus far been exhausted here. So I'll take another direction..............Rather than only reading the description in some of the posts of what he said, listening to his voice and mannerisms of presentation, I got the distinct feeling that he was squirming and definitely feeling uncomfortable in trying to find genuinely encouraging remarks concerning the promise shown by Wand as the LT future of the Texans.........And I'm one that is pulling for Wand on our team, but I couldn't help from coming away from the interview somewhat uncomfortable myself.


Yes, I got that same impression. He didn't seem real high on him. I hope he is wrong but i am a little concerned. I think Kubes will put the best guy there, though. I hope it happens by the first game.

Lucky
06-15-2006, 08:12 PM
...I got the distinct feeling that he was squirming and definitely feeling uncomfortable in trying to find genuinely encouraging remarks concerning the promise shown by Wand as the LT future of the Texans.........And I'm one that is pulling for Wand on our team, but I couldn't help from coming away from the interview somewhat uncomfortable myself.
I've been a card carrying Wand basher since '04. But I'll admit that Seth couldn't have received worse coaching than what he got with the Texans. Until now, the Texans have not had a legit NFL offensive line coach. I've asked Carr bashers to give Kubiak a chance to work with David. I'll do the same and hope Sherman can turn around what was once a promising talent at offensive tackle.

Physically, Wand has the talent. The measurables have always been there. His combine scores were similar to Robert Gallery, who went #2 in the draft in '04. But Seth was from a Division II school, and was way over his head when the Texans threw him in at LT in '04. He was thinking and not playing. That can get your QB killed, and it almost did on a number of occasions. But, Wand has been in the league 3 years and finally has a coach that can show him the way. I don't think Kubiak would put Wand at LT if he didn't believe he could do the job. I see Seth giving at least a workman like performance at LT this season.

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 08:14 PM
Having said all that, how can you blame the offensive line? They had the same coaching as Carr.

Simple, the overall talent on the offensive line is suspect and everyone agrees on that point.

But, for some reason the same analysis seems to escape Carr.

After reading all that, McNair seems to be completely to blame. Which is probably the case.


http://www.monty-pythons.com/album/Episode_29/11-argument-clinic-03.jpg

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 08:18 PM
Yes, I got that same impression. He didn't seem real high on him. I hope he is wrong but i am a little concerned. I think Kubes will put the best guy there, though. I hope it happens by the first game.

He was mixed in his assessment. Admitted he hadn't seen him, and hadn't seen him play recently. Said he liked the guy. He mentioned his physical gifts, but also said that it seemed back then like he need a little more gunpowder in his food because left tackles need a mean streak.

He was put in a weird situation by the questioning because a couple of years ago he was an experienced guy was competing against a raw guy with talents. And now he is out of the league and not around the team so he seemed to feel comfortable talking from a point forward basis.

I'm not sure how much you really want to read into this stuff.

infantrycak
06-15-2006, 08:19 PM
Having said all that, how can you blame the offensive line? They had the same coaching as Carr.

Yeah, they did have the same coaching as Carr and let's look at what is happening. The OL as a unit underperformed. That can be individual inability, bad coaching or both. It appears the new OL will be staffed at least to start with 4 Texans available to the old coaching staff--Wand, McKinney, Pitts & Wiegert. Seems the new coaching staff thinks most of the problem with the OL was the old coaching staff as well. See how that works--QB and OL underperformed last year--both could have been a result of personnel and/or coaching--the new coaching staff has decided in both cases the majority of underperformance was due to coaching.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 08:22 PM
http://www.monty-pythons.com/album/Episode_29/11-argument-clinic-03.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/hollywood_texan/f-taxidriver3.jpg

infantrycak
06-15-2006, 08:22 PM
I heard the Spears interview. Comments made concerning Carr have thus far been exhausted here. So I'll take another direction..............Rather than only reading the description in some of the posts of what he said, listening to his voice and mannerisms of presentation, I got the distinct feeling that he was squirming and definitely feeling uncomfortable in trying to find genuinely encouraging remarks concerning the promise shown by Wand as the LT future of the Texans.........And I'm one that is pulling for Wand on our team, but I couldn't help from coming away from the interview somewhat uncomfortable myself.

I got the same impression about Wand--basically IMO he seemed to think Wand may have plenty of ability but just doesn't have the fire for the position. I'd keep in mind that Spears played with Wand 2 years ago and under a now departed staff. Mike Sherman has a pretty good track record with OLmen vs. say "he whose name will not be mentioned because he thought starting Victor Riley at LT was a good idea."

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 08:27 PM
Yeah, they did have the same coaching as Carr and let's look at what is happening. The OL as a unit underperformed. That can be individual inability, bad coaching or both. It appears the new OL will be staffed at least to start with 4 Texans available to the old coaching staff--Wand, McKinney, Pitts & Wiegert. Seems the new coaching staff thinks most of the problem with the OL was the old coaching staff as well. See how that works--QB and OL underperformed last year--both could have been a result of personnel and/or coaching--the new coaching staff has decided in both cases the majority of underperformance was due to coaching.

There could be bigger changes on the offensive line due to two picks taken in the third round.

I hear ya thought.

I have said regularly that I believe Carr has the physical abilities to get the job done. Never in all the games I have been to, watched, or listened though, have I ever got the feeling Carr was being held back.

IMO, he is lacking that intangible to get it done because he has yet to show any of that in my estimation.

Maybe a new system and coaching staff will bring that to light as well as victories.

infantrycak
06-15-2006, 08:32 PM
Never in all the games I have been to, watched, or listened though, have I ever got the feeling Carr was being held back.

Wow, don't see how you could watch last year and not say the entire offense was being held back.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 08:38 PM
Wow, don't see how you could watch last year and not say the entire offense was being held back.

Have you ever watched a game, any sport and at level, and see you see one player performing well on a team despite the rest of the team? You ask yourself, what if this person had more help, what could they do?

I have never come to that conclusion or thought of that when it comes to Carr.

I agree with you, the play calling and overall schemes were severly lacking last year. It was ridiculous actually.

But again, I never watched Carr's performance and thought, wait a minute, this guy is being held back. I more or less viewed him similar to the entire problem.

Wolf
06-15-2006, 08:41 PM
I agree with you, the play calling and overall schemes were severly lacking last year. It was ridiculous actually.

But again, I never watched Carr's performance and thought, wait a minute, this guy is being held back. I more or less viewed him similar to the entire problem.

oxymoron anyone?

Texans_Chick
06-15-2006, 08:44 PM
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/hollywood_texan/f-taxidriver3.jpg

http://www.stephanierowe.com/images/if_the_shoe_fits_L.jpg

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 08:46 PM
oxymoron anyone?

Just because the play calling and overall schemes were severly lacking last year doesn't mean Carr is or isn't a good quarterback.

The two are not connected, they are independent evaluations.

hollywood_texan
06-15-2006, 08:51 PM
http://www.stephanierowe.com/images/if_the_shoe_fits_L.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/hollywood_texan/10578.jpg

Runner
06-15-2006, 08:55 PM
No one, and I mean no one, gets to be successful in life at that stage by just being a good person. That is how the world works, like it or not.


Of all the absurdities on this thread, this is the one I'll address. There is nothing that says a player can't be a good person and still succeed. It happens all the time. How can I say this? Because a very high percentage of players on every team are good people. Probably 80-90% of them. Every team that has won the Super Bowl has had a majority of "good people" on their squads. Just because the press and fawning fans focus on the antics of jackasses doesn't mean the majority of players are like that.

I can give a very clear example of this by shifting sports - check out the history of the Spurs and Trailblazers of the NBA in the past 10 years.

Wolf
06-15-2006, 08:55 PM
Just because the play calling and overall schemes were severly lacking last year doesn't mean Carr is or isn't a good quarterback.

The two are not connected, they are independent evaluations.


are they now?
:ok:

that is like saying Priest homes staying in Baltimore would have been the same back as he was in KC

Wolf
06-15-2006, 09:06 PM
I am going to end the Carr debate.(which we won't know until the season starts)


Carr can make all the throws possible see the first video on this thread
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=24022

Now as far as NFL wise.. Kubiak has to get Carr's head straight .. Make the right reads and make them faster.. (Moulds,Joppru, and name escapes me at TE from Denver..should help spread the field..) Kubiak has to get David to trust his OL and stop watching the rush and look downfield.... He does this and David should be a solid NFL QB.. maybe never probowl, but solid

Runner
06-15-2006, 09:06 PM
I've been a card carrying Wand basher since '04. But I'll admit that Seth couldn't have received worse coaching than what he got with the Texans. Until now, the Texans have not had a legit NFL offensive line coach. I've asked Carr bashers to give Kubiak a chance to work with David. I'll do the same and hope Sherman can turn around what was once a promising talent at offensive tackle.

Physically, Wand has the talent. The measurables have always been there. His combine scores were similar to Robert Gallery, who went #2 in the draft in '04. But Seth was from a Division II school, and was way over his head when the Texans threw him in at LT in '04. He was thinking and not playing. That can get your QB killed, and it almost did on a number of occasions. But, Wand has been in the league 3 years and finally has a coach that can show him the way. I don't think Kubiak would put Wand at LT if he didn't believe he could do the job. I see Seth giving at least a workman like performance at LT this season.

Well said.

I think the bad o-line coaching has been fixed. It is now up to the players.

TwinSisters
06-15-2006, 09:15 PM
Once again- He said that about Wand- not Carr. I'm not defending, simply reporting. he talked as much about wand as Carr. He was asked what he thaought about his play and if he had the skills to play LT and he talked about how wand had the size and skills but needed more intensity (the gunpowder comment)

Wand? What? Crap I got tricked... We don't any more threads about Wand. We need more about Carr. So let's just pretend it is about Carr. It's a house rule... no matter what little amount dirt comes out, we must make it into mounds of mountains about Carr. That's the rules. Do you want to break the rules and not be part of the herd? Or do you want to run with the rest of the bullsss?

Very good. Carry on now then...:shoot:

EDIT:

He pointed out that [David] kept getting up and didn't throw his teammates under the bus in the media as some QB's have.

went back and looked at the original copy. I am still good and the character issue is still a valid argument with Aikman ( even without the gunpowder link ). Granted Aikman is not going to reporters and tossing the weight around, but he calls them out when they are failing and not being a wuss or diplomat about it. Manning, Elway, Esiason, Bradshaw all have called out their team and coaches in the press before. THIS is NOT to say David Carr should do as other great Quarterbacks do, this is only to say that you can do it and still be a great player. It can be and has been done in the past.

EDIT AGAIN: Manning just the team.

TexanFan881
06-15-2006, 09:19 PM
I am going to end the Carr debate.(which we won't know until the season starts)


Carr can make all the throws possible see the first video on this thread
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=24022


Could you believe that was 4 years ago? In his rookie season? He looks good in that and I'm guessing he got better since then.

TwinSisters
06-15-2006, 09:26 PM
Of all the absurdities on this thread, this is the one I'll address. There is nothing that says a player can't be a good person and still succeed. It happens all the time. How can I say this? Because a very high percentage of players on every team are good people. Probably 80-90% of them.

and the inverse is also true. You don't have to be a good person to succeed. Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds, Michael Irvin, Steve Spurrier, Barry Switzer, George Allen, etc.

infantrycak
06-15-2006, 09:39 PM
But again, I never watched Carr's performance and thought, wait a minute, this guy is being held back. I more or less viewed him similar to the entire problem.

Well since I posted this the other day I will stick with my opinion that he was being held back:

My theory is Capers and co. put the screws to what Carr was supposed to consider "open" after his 3 INT's at Indy in '04. Before that Carr was taking shots into double coverage to AJ and to Gaffney as 2nd option (19 passes total in that game and the 3 preceding, 2 total in the 4 games after) and Armstrong (11 Indy and 3 before, 3 in the 4 games after). Over that time period AJ got 22 passes in Indy and the 3 before (other WR's 38 total--that would be 63% to the other WR's--pretty good job of never looking at them) and 20 in the 4 games after (other WR's 10 total). AJ still got his passes--the other WR's dropped out of the game. Lest anyone think the D's got tougher--actually the opposite is true--the average passing D ranking for Indy and the 3 preceding games was 19th--the average passing D ranking for the 4 after was 23rd. Seems unlikely IMO that Carr woke up and decided not to throw to other WR's all on his own and lost his ability suddenly to read other WR's.

Doesn't mean Carr doesn't also have things to improve on--he absolutely does.

Hardcore Texan
06-15-2006, 09:54 PM
I can't believe I read this much of this thread, it is like the sun, you know you shouldn't stare at it but you just can't help it. :crying:

I will say it again for the umpteenth time, Unless you are a better evaluator of Talent than Gary Kubiak, especially at the QB position, then I say sit back and trust our new captain. Give him a chance to prove himself. The past is the past, this is a new year, everyone gets a clean slate. people shouldn't negatively criticize a work in progress. Give them a chance to put a product on the field. At least wait until after the first game of the season.......

BTW.. I think Carr is going to have a GREAT season!

bayoudreamn
06-15-2006, 10:27 PM
I am going to interchange some words from the quote above,

How many head coaches these days who are struggling under the same conditions as Capers would have had the patience and professionalism to handle it the way Capers did.

How fart did Capers get that?

It's about W's and performing, that's it and that's that. Why is it that Terrell Owens can still play in the NFL? The guy is a complete jerk and I am sure no one will argue that point.

I am tired of all this Carr crap, particularly if he is a nice guy, family man, or whatever. He can either win games or not. There are no excuses in football. He isn't paid millions to be a good or nice guy.

No ONE wins games. This isn't a one player sport. That argument is sooooo tired.....give it a rest!

bayoudreamn
06-15-2006, 10:35 PM
Here is the deal with all the Carr supporters, they believe Carr hasn't performed because everyone else around him didn't. Therefore, Carr is a good quarterback and should keep his job. No one will argue the talent issue on the offensive line and quality receivers outside of AJ, but it is possible Carr was more of the problem than just being held back.

For example, here is quote about McNair learning the new Ravens system,

"A confused quarterback is usually confronted with a barrage of blitzes. If he's confused about protections, that's when he's going to get whacked," Fassel said.

Apply this quote to Carr's sack problems and think about it. Carr could have really contributed more to the sack problem, basically overwhelming an already talent thin line.

Here is Kubiak's own words on Carr following the conclusion of their mini camp.

"I think he's the most improved player from this offseason," Kubiak said. "From the day we walked out here until today, I really thought he was the most improved. Yet he still has a long way to go.

"The key to David, like any other player and I've already spent a ton of time with him David's got to come back and pick up right where he left off. We can't go back and work on things that we were trying to clean up. Nobody's worked harder."

Not exactly a ringing order of endorsement for our 4-year QB veteren. Kind of sounds like he may be fighting for his job early in the season if he doesn't start off well.

So, Texans_Chick, from your post, I take that we basically have a rookie quarterback in Carr.

Judging from your comments, it looks like you need to concentrate on reading the lines before you try to read between them.

bayoudreamn
06-15-2006, 10:38 PM
combination of both.. Capers philosophy is great defense, run the ball (I do like that combination BTW) yet our defense couldn't sack anyone and couldn't protect the Qb on offense.. that hurts the team.. why have an offensive philosophy like that when you have patchwork OL and you draft a QB #1 overall and a WR #3 overall.. when you are trying to be run 1st offense. putting a square peg in a round hole IMO

and yes we held Carr back IMO and with the inadequate protection Carr has bad habits and happy feet. He is still looking at the rush instead of looking downfield .. Also game hasn't slowed down for him yet.

Wolf.....I agree with you!......pretty much.......I think I'm going to go into shock!

nunusguy
06-15-2006, 10:42 PM
Seth Wand played his college ball in Maryville, Mo. at NorthWest Missouri State. A small college to be sure, the level of competition he saw while playing there was probably inferior to what he would have seen had he played against some of the higher echelon teams in High School here in Houston or in the DFW area. Now we know they play tremendous scholastic
football in Texas, but it doesn't give you the necessary experience you need
to play in the NFL as the colleges of the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, etc do.
So with that kind of very minimal background and no real coaching yet in his career, Wand spent one year in the NFL to get aclamated and then a year later started at LT going against the likes of Dwight Feeney twice in 2004.

bayoudreamn
06-15-2006, 10:42 PM
Having said all that, how can you blame the offensive line? They had the same coaching as Carr.

Simple, the overall talent on the offensive line is suspect and everyone agrees on that point.

But, for some reason the same analysis seems to escape Carr.

After reading all that, McNair seems to be completely to blame. Which is probably the case.

twisted

bayoudreamn
06-15-2006, 10:49 PM
Yes, I got that same impression. He didn't seem real high on him. I hope he is wrong but i am a little concerned. I think Kubes will put the best guy there, though. I hope it happens by the first game.

Same feeling.....has it before though.....and I like Wand. Not because he's a nice guy but I think he's a team player and he leaves it all on the field. That said, he may not have what it takes.....or he may just be without the proper instruction in the past. I think we can all agree that the teachers are in the school, now.

Good Luck, SW

bayoudreamn
06-15-2006, 10:54 PM
He was mixed in his assessment. Admitted he hadn't seen him, and hadn't seen him play recently. Said he liked the guy. He mentioned his physical gifts, but also said that it seemed back then like he need a little more gunpowder in his food because left tackles need a mean streak.

He was put in a weird situation by the questioning because a couple of years ago he was an experienced guy was competing against a raw guy with talents. And now he is out of the league and not around the team so he seemed to feel comfortable talking from a point forward basis.

I'm not sure how much you really want to read into this stuff.

Willie Roaf is a nice guy. I don't think you have to have a mean streak to play the position. It may be that alot of players do, but it's not necessarily required. Willie's been to the ProBowl repeatedly and is considered....or was....one of the best in the league. We don't have to believe everything Spears said.

Runner
06-15-2006, 10:59 PM
and the inverse is also true. You don't have to be a good person to succeed. Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds, Michael Irvin, Steve Spurrier, Barry Switzer, George Allen, etc.

Agreed. I was just addressing the original claim.

Hulk75
06-16-2006, 07:48 AM
Willie Roaf is a nice guy. I don't think you have to have a mean streak to play the position. It may be that alot of players do, but it's not necessarily required. Willie's been to the ProBowl repeatedly and is considered....or was....one of the best in the league. We don't have to believe everything Spears said.
True but you never as a X-Dlineman do you let people talk to you how they want or shuve you around, I dont care what your back ground is, nobody is a door mat...............John Runyan-Nices guy you could ever meet off the field, on the football field he has got a switch (a controlled one though), I saw him get Rodney Harrison on the ground and as he was getting up he put a forearm in his neck and never said a word............You have to play rough a little bit or guys will not respect you, ON the otherside of the ball.

El Tejano
06-16-2006, 08:30 AM
All I know is that when Carr was allowed to handle the offense we were chucking 50 yard bombs, going up by 21, and then the coaches took over.

nunusguy
06-16-2006, 08:38 AM
Willie Roaf is a nice guy. I don't think you have to have a mean streak to play the position. It may be that alot of players do, but it's not necessarily required. Willie's been to the ProBowl repeatedly and is considered....or was....one of the best in the league. We don't have to believe everything Spears said.
I dunno, but you may know Roaf personally ? But you gotta understand that
many, mnay guys who play football, certainly those good enough to play in the NFL, are kinda bi-polar in a sense. They may be mild mannered, even meak on their own time, but when they get on the field Mr. Hyde surfaces,
or had better if they are playing in the NFL, especially on the LOS. Its a
war in the pits as they say.

hollywood_texan
06-16-2006, 12:15 PM
No one, and I mean no one, gets to be successful in life at that stage by just being a good person. That is how the world works, like it or not.



Of all the absurdities on this thread, this is the one I'll address. There is nothing that says a player can't be a good person and still succeed.



My words do not say that if you are a good person you will not be successful.

Your right they can be both.

hollywood_texan
06-16-2006, 12:27 PM
twisted

Thank you, I take that as a compliment.

jerek
06-16-2006, 12:28 PM
This can't possibly be another David Carr thread:

Spans more than four pages in less than a day's time. Check.
Wonger_needs_food has posted. Check.
Spirited discussion of the merits of previous offensive lines, system, coaches, management, refreshments vendors, and beer guy, and Carr's role in their systematic failure. Check.

Looks like it is a Davey Carr thread after all.

Rumor mill has it that Wand will be playing the part of the Cowardly Lion in this year's Wizard of Oz production. He is a natural fit for the part.

Texans_Chick
06-16-2006, 12:34 PM
This can't possibly be another David Carr thread:

Spans more than four pages in less than a day's time. Check.
Wonger_needs_food has posted. Check.
Spirited discussion of the merits of previous offensive lines, system, coaches, management, refreshments vendors, and beer guy, and Carr's role in their systematic failure. Check.

Looks like it is a Davey Carr thread after all.

Rumor mill has it that Wand will be playing the part of the Cowardly Lion in this year's Wizard of Oz production. He is a natural fit for the part.


Yet another thing someone would never say to a player's face. Check

jerek
06-16-2006, 12:45 PM
Yet another thing someone would never say to a player's face. Check

Ouch. Forgive me if I call it like I see it, or if my poor attempt at humor doesn't sit well with you. I wouldn't necessarily call any one a coward to their face (not that I would be afraid to say that to Wand or anyone else, if that is what you are implying, rather I would typically abstain out of basic courtesy) but that is the nature of pro sports: we the fans call it like we see it. Frankly TC I like your writing but if there is one problem I have with any of it, it's that you tend to write only in rosy view and refuse to be critical.

I simply don't share your belief that Wand is a redeemable player. He has been getting abused throughout camp and I don't see that changing any time soon. I'll call a spade a spade. I don't know the guy off the field, and surely it may only be his football play that is fundamentally lacking and not his overall character, but his play onfield speaks for itself.

hollywood_texan
06-16-2006, 12:49 PM
Ouch. Forgive me if I call it like I see it, or if my poor attempt at humor doesn't sit well with you. I wouldn't necessarily call any one a coward to their face (not that I would be afraid to say that to Wand or anyone else, if that is what you are implying, rather I would typically abstain out of basic courtesy) but that is the nature of pro sports: we the fans call it like we see it. Frankly TC I like your writing but if there is one problem I have with any of it, it's that you tend to write only in rosy view and refuse to be critical.

I simply don't share your belief that Wand is a redeemable player. He has been getting abused throughout camp and I don't see that changing any time soon. I'll call a spade a spade. I don't know the guy off the field, and surely it may only be his football play that is fundamentally lacking and not his overall character, but his play onfield speaks for itself.

Nice post, particularly the bolded and underlined part.

jerek
06-16-2006, 12:56 PM
Nice post, particularly the bolded and underlined part.

Haha. Difference being here I like Carr. You can't deny the guy's heart. IMO that is what separates him from a guy like Wand. At least on the football field, Wand is a guy with reasonable physical tools who is dominated time and time again because he appears to lack the heart. And yes, I realize our O-line and our system sucked from top to bottom last year, but there are guys like Chester Pitts who looked really good at times and decent most of the time. Wand has yet to put up whatsoever in my eyes. I watched him a few days at camp this year and geez, I can't help but think he is either incredibly slow of wit right now or he just can't really be bothered.

The cowardly lion bit was a low shot I admit, but I myself routinely employ a self-deprecating humor and I and my closest friends consistently use it all the time and at each other, and no feelings are hurt. Just the nature of how we talk. More than that I tend to be blunt and say what I perceive, which if you agree with me then you will tend to respect that (though it can be misused, no question) and if you don't well then you will take exception to it. So I grant that outside of that context, it may seem uncalled for, and truly, I apologize if that is offensive. But honestly, I will call it here and now, Wand is not going to make it in this league. I hope to high heaven that I am wrong about that -- he's a Texan now and as such I will root for his success in the face of what my mind cannot help but believe -- but I ain't holding my breath.

hollywood_texan
06-16-2006, 01:04 PM
Haha. Difference being here I like Carr. You can't deny the guy's heart. IMO that is what separates him from a guy like Wand. At least on the football field, Wand is a guy with reasonable physical tools who is dominated time and time again because he appears to lack the heart. And yes, I realize our O-line and our system sucked from top to bottom last year, but there are guys like Chester Pitts who looked really good at times and decent most of the time. Wand has yet to put up whatsoever in my eyes. I watched him a few days at camp this year and geez, I can't help but think he is either incredibly slow of wit right now or he just can't really be bothered.

The cowardly lion bit was a low shot I admit, but I myself routinely employ a self-deprecating humor and I and my closest friends consistently use it all the time and at each other, and no feelings are hurt. Just the nature of how we talk. More than that I tend to be blunt and say what I perceive, which if you agree with me then you will tend to respect that (though it can be misused, no question) and if you don't well then you will take exception to it. So I grant that outside of that context, it may seem uncalled for, and truly, I apologize if that is offensive. But honestly, I will call it here and now, Wand is not going to make it in this league. I hope to high heaven that I am wrong about that -- he's a Texan now and as such I will root for his success in the face of what my mind cannot help but believe -- but I ain't holding my breath.

First, from what I have read Carr is probably a great person and dedicated to his family, which I think is way more important than any contributions on the football field.

Second, I have said time and again, IMO Carr has the physical tools.

I find it interesting that your discussion of Wand and opinion is very similar to mine of Carr.

That's all.

As for your low blow, I don't think it was. This type of attention and dedication by NFL fans is what make it a multi-billion dollar industry. It's like a movie star getting upset that a paparazzi takes pictures of them, it goes along with the territory.

BigTimeTexanFan
06-16-2006, 01:04 PM
I believe self-esteem and confidence in yourself are VERY important to an individual's success. So many players on this team were thrown into the fire too early and expected to learn on the go. I don't think that is the way it should be done because it is detrimental to the development of the players. Look at Carr, he hasn't known success in his entire career. All he has ever known is losing and mistakes. Same thing goes for Wand, he was thrown in there and ripped apart. If you were tossed in the fire and then all you ever heard was how poorly you are performing and what terrible mistakes you are making, what would that do to you??? In sports as in the business world, people need to be groomed into their roles. Only very rarely does a person start off in the mix and succeed.

jerek
06-16-2006, 01:13 PM
First, from what I have read Carr is probably a great person and dedicated to his family, which I think is way more important than any contributions on the football field.

Second, I have said time and again, IMO Carr has the physical tools.

I find it interesting that your discussion of Wand and opinion is very similar to mine of Carr.

That's all.

As for your low blow, I don't think it was. This type of attention and dedication by NFL fans is what make it a multi-billion dollar industry. It's like a movie star getting upset that a paparazzi takes pictures of them, it goes along with the territory.

For sure. We can all watch the same football games and draw different conclusions on the why of different things that occur. We can agree to disagree and it's all good in my book.

I dunno about the low shot bit. On the one hand I agree with TC in that the players are just people too and it's easy to write something about a guy that you wouldn't say to their face, as rules of basic courtesy seem to evaporate across anonymous or information mediums. It always cracks me up to see some of the things people will say online but when they meet me in person it's a whole different ball game, and hey, I'm guilty of that myself too. I've met and gotten to hang with a lot of the Texans and a lot of them are absolutely great people, whether or not I like their play. A few are pricks and I'd not hold back on telling them so, again regardless of whether or not I like their play. On the other hand sport is sport and yes, it does come with the territory, and no, I sincerely doubt if Wand cares if I personally think he plays without heart. I haven't met the guy so I don't know a thing about him past what I see at camp.

Either way by default I am blunt and if I don't watch myself, my thought can tend to come out in an abrasive manner, so I don't knock a person's right to call me on it. I'll not engage a dispute over an idle comment, so I thought it better to just clear the air regardless.

Runner
06-16-2006, 01:13 PM
Frankly TC I like your writing but if there is one problem I have with any of it, it's that you tend to write only in rosy view and refuse to be critical.

I simply don't share your belief that Wand is a redeemable player. He has been getting abused throughout camp and I don't see that changing any time soon. I'll call a spade a spade. I don't know the guy off the field, and surely it may only be his football play that is fundamentally lacking and not his overall character, but his play onfield speaks for itself.

After you are done calling Wand a coward, make sure you stop by and tell Shanahan, Calhoun, and Kubiak that they are dolts when it comes to judging football talent and evaluating a player's performance in camp. For proof, you can always tell them that Joe Pendry agrees with you.

Amateurs who are evaluating players in camp from their occasional sideline view or hearsay may actually be missing what is going on. Let me give you an example.

Theoretically, say the o-line coach tells Wand to slow down and concentrate on footwork and balance and don't worry too much about the rusher - the goal is too learn how to do things right, then go full speed later in the real training camp once his fundamentals are sound. So as Wand is doing that, Peek lines up at DE, goes full speed and does his one move - the speed rush - and makes Wand look silly. Of course Wand looks bad to the casual observer, while at the same time Shanahan is saying, "Good job, Seth. That is exactly how I want your feet to move every time. Keep it up".

In this case Wand is improving and Peek isn't, because he refuses to refine or broaden his technique. Peek sure looked good in practice with no pads though!

I don't know if examples like these will ever change anyone's mind about any player - I think most posters are too smart to need to consider other viewpoints, even if our ignorant coaching staff does not share their beliefs.

I'm with Texans Chick on this one.

p.s. I'm also sorry if no one appreciates my "humor".

jerek
06-16-2006, 01:23 PM
After you are done calling Wand a coward, make sure you stop by and tell Shanahan, Calhoun, and Kubiak that they are dolts when it comes to judging football talent and evaluating a player's performance in camp. For proof, you can always tell them that Joe Pendry agrees with you.

Amateurs who are evaluating players in camp from their occasional sideline view or hearsay may actually be missing what is going on. Let me give you an example.

Theoretically, say the o-line coach tells Wand to slow down and concentrate on footwork and balance and don't worry too much about the rusher - the goal is too learn how to do things right, then go full speed later in the real training camp once his fundamentals are sound. So as Wand is doing that, Peek lines up at DE, goes full speed and does his one move - the speed rush - and makes Wand look silly. Of course Wand looks bad to the casual observer, while at the same time Shanahan is saying, "Good job, Seth. That is exactly how I want your feet to move every time. Keep it up".

In this case Wand is improving and Peek isn't, because he refuses to refine or broaden his technique. Peek sure looked good in practice with no pads though!

I don't know if examples like these will ever change anyone's mind about any player - I think most posters are too smart to need to consider other viewpoints, even if our ignorant coaching staff does not share their beliefs.

I'm with Texans Chick on this one.

p.s. I'm also sorry if no one appreciates my "humor".

Good call. Which is exactly why you or anyone else who knows better than I do can feel free to discount my opinion or tell me why it's wrong. I'm not the coach and my knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors -- though probably better than most of you would expect or ever know -- is still limited. I do get a lot of information from various people who are in a position to know, and I will tend to recite that from time to time as well, and they have told me to a man that Seth Wand is struggling right now. Either way it is surely possible that we're all misinformed and frankly I hope we are. But we're all on here talking opinions -- you and TC too -- so if my opinion is that Seth Wand sucks, then feel free to tell me why I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

Look this is getting stupid, I'm going on five posts now defending my criticism of Seth Wand. TC called me on it and I admitted the Oz reference was a low shot and explained why I made it in the first place, and there you have it. I wish him all the success in the world and I hope he makes it big. My observation is that he will not, but that's a general observation, not the kind of rock solid conviction I would bet my bank account on. More of a $20 water cooler type bet. Either way, done with this topic now.

TwinSisters
06-16-2006, 01:31 PM
but that is the nature of pro sports: we the fans call it like we see it. Frankly TC I like your writing but if there is one problem I have with any of it, it's that you tend to write only in rosy view and refuse to be critical.


O yeah! That's the spirit. HEy!! Here at HoustonTexans.com do we not only break down every single player to their last hair and breakfast... but the fans too. It's a fan, it's a zone, expect a blitz and look out for the 15 yards piling on.

So not only does Wand need the gunpowder, the fan too. I think I like it...

I am going to dispatch this over to the media department right away. Send them a little memo... little packets of gunpowder will be handed out at the gates. ( like pop rocks or something )
Every one of em will have a Texans team member's name or number on it, so that we can eat the gunpowder with them. You know... share in the experience of getting all fired up.

Next off-season hot topic: How come I got so many Carr packets and not enough Rosenfels packets? Obviously there is some type of conspiracy going on... perhaps funded by leftists revolutionaries and anti-gun nuts.

o wait.. nevermind. Gunpowder... GUN... POWDER... bad idea. Irvin and Switzer might show up and crash the gates.

Runner
06-16-2006, 01:33 PM
I do get a lot of information from various people who are in a position to know,

Do you really think you are the only one?



leave out the homilies.

Look this is getting stupid, I'm going on five posts now defending my criticism .

I am amazed that you would say these things given the preaching you do in defense of Carr to his critics (and I'm personally not a critic of Carr). It seems you are condemning people for doing (to a much lesser extent) what you do. It can be perceived as somewhat hypocritical.

jerek
06-16-2006, 01:41 PM
Do you really think you are the only one?

I am amazed that you would say these things given the preaching you do in defense of Carr to his critics (and I'm personally not a critic of Carr). It seems you are condemning people for doing (to a much lesser extent) what you do. It can be perceived as somewhat hypocritical.

:brickwall

Q & A #1: Yes. I am the only one on this entire board who has any ties or link to the team whatsoever. Bow to my omniscience.

Seriously though. I reneged on the homilies comment a moment after you quoted it because it was mean.

Sorry all. I am in a bad mood today. Runner and TC, truly I tend to enjoy reading your posts so I hope there was no offense in either case.

Long live Seth Wand. May he go on to be a HOFer. I will be back to remind you all of this thread if he does not.

Going. To. Eat. Lunch. Now.

Hulk75
06-16-2006, 01:42 PM
Yet another thing someone would never say to a player's face. Check
They would not say anything to them, they would ask for his autograph instead. Kind of funny right.

srstex
06-16-2006, 01:45 PM
If we look back in Chesters second year the team cut the sack total in half, so the coaches change systems and left tackles and you saw what happened, and then last year 3 players split time at left takle. Pitts is the one for the team, Wand needs to go with Riley-anywhere but here.
As for the Carr bombs, when Banks broke his hand on a helmet, Carr came in from his injury, and fisrt play RAN for over 20 yards, guts Carr has, time he does not. As the o-line goes, so goes the offense.

Runner
06-16-2006, 01:48 PM
:brickwall

Q & A #1: Yes. I am the only one on this entire board who has any ties or link to the team whatsoever. Bow to my omniscience.

Seriously though. I reneged on the homilies comment a moment after you quoted it because it was mean.

Sorry all. I am in a bad mood today. Runner and TC, truly I tend to enjoy reading your posts so I hope there was no offense in either case.

Long live Seth Wand. May he go on to be a HOFer. I will be back to remind you all of this thread if he does not.

Going. To. Eat. Lunch. Now.

We're good.

I think I'll go run a few miles.

jerek
06-16-2006, 01:50 PM
They would not say anything to them, they would ask for his autograph instead. Kind of funny right.

I wouldn't even recognize Seth Wand let alone ask for his autograph if I did. I'm not sure where you were going with that one, Hulkster.

Yeesh, where was the Koolaid parade back when Vincemania was in full force and I was sticking up for Davey on a daily basis? I throw one flying elbow Seth Wand's way and everyone is all over my jock like white on rice.

I guess I could be annoyed but it's kinda refreshing to see the renewed enthusiasm round these parts.

I need football.

Double Barrel
06-16-2006, 02:06 PM
They would not say anything to them, they would ask for his autograph instead. Kind of funny right.

Unless it's Joe Texan. He'll call out a player and then ask for an autograph! :D

Just ask Buchanan at the All Access event. Joe Texan asked him if he was going to suck again this year, and P.Buch replied that it was all the coaches faults and the scheme was lousy. True story, and funny as all get out.

Speaking of Wand, I met him at the All Access thing, and shook his hand (nice guy, too). His grip basically swallowed my hand, and I've got pretty good sized hands. Not like the bear paws of Wand, though. That guy is humongous. I sincerely hope he has an excellent year, for both his career and the fate of the Texans.

jerek
06-16-2006, 02:08 PM
Unless it's Joe Texan. He'll call out a player and then ask for an autograph! :D

Just ask Buchanan at the All Access event. Joe Texan asked him if he was going to suck again this year, and P.Buch replied that it was all the coaches faults and the scheme was lousy. True story, and funny as all get out.

Speaking of Wand, I met him at the All Acces thing, and shook his hand (nice guy, too). His grip basically swallowed my hand, and I've got pretty good sized hands. Not like the bear paws of Wand, though. That guy is humongous. I sincerely hope he has an excellent year, for both his career and the fate of the Texans.

Hahaha. All of you seem to know this Joe Texan guy better than I do. You're not the first I've heard mention him. The same Joe Texan I see occasionally on this board?

Hulk75
06-16-2006, 02:11 PM
I wouldn't even recognize Seth Wand let alone ask for his autograph if I did. I'm not sure where you were going with that one, Hulkster.

Yeesh, where was the Koolaid parade back when Vincemania was in full force and I was sticking up for Davey on a daily basis? I throw one flying elbow Seth Wand's way and everyone is all over my jock like white on rice.

I guess I could be annoyed but it's kinda refreshing to see the renewed enthusiasm round these parts.

I need football.
Guess I should have put the :sarcasm: thing up, my bad:heh: .............Now you were not the only one sticking up for Carr during the draft, I had headaches fighting those people off.

"Goose-fra-baaaw".......................:cool:

Hulk75
06-16-2006, 02:13 PM
Unless it's Joe Texan. He'll call out a player and then ask for an autograph! :D

Just ask Buchanan at the All Access event. Joe Texan asked him if he was going to suck again this year, and P.Buch replied that it was all the coaches faults and the scheme was lousy. True story, and funny as all get out.

Speaking of Wand, I met him at the All Access thing, and shook his hand (nice guy, too). His grip basically swallowed my hand, and I've got pretty good sized hands. Not like the bear paws of Wand, though. That guy is humongous. I sincerely hope he has an excellent year, for both his career and the fate of the Texans.
lol: lol: Bro that is the funniest thing I have heard in a while, dude that must have been side splitting...........

Texans Horror
06-16-2006, 03:05 PM
Speaking of Wand, I met him at the All Access thing, and shook his hand (nice guy, too). His grip basically swallowed my hand, and I've got pretty good sized hands. Not like the bear paws of Wand, though. That guy is humongous. I sincerely hope he has an excellent year, for both his career and the fate of the Texans.

I had the same impression of him. I couldn't get my fingers around the palm of his hand to shake it. Even better, my wife, who is shorter than me, later confided "He doesn't seem that big." I nearly fell out of the chair. The guy's a monster and a behemoth.

To add to it, I have also heard references to his "baby fat" and to him being "doughy." Man, I wish I was that slim. This guy is just all muscle and mass and has continued to "bulk up." I really do feel sorry for anybody who has to go up against the Missouri Monster this year.

jerek
06-16-2006, 03:07 PM
I had the same impression of him. I couldn't get my fingers around the palm of his hand to shake it. Even better, my wife, who is shorter than me, later confided "He doesn't seem that big." I nearly fell out of the chair. The guy's a monster and a behemoth.

To add to it, I have also heard references to his "baby fat" and to him being "doughy." Man, I wish I was that slim. This guy is just all muscle and mass and has continued to "bulk up." I really do feel sorry for anybody who has to go up against the Missouri Monster this year.

That was one of my first impressions when meeting most of the O-line. They all look like a bunch of lards on TV, but when you meet them up close they are freakin jacked, and quite trim as well.

Moran Norris takes the cake though. We used to call that dude Tricep. His arms are bigger than my head and I am a hat size 8.

Texans Horror
06-16-2006, 03:20 PM
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=23323&page=12

Post 234. Reservoir Dogs are bigger in Texas.

Texans_Chick
06-16-2006, 04:08 PM
Ouch. Forgive me if I call it like I see it, or if my poor attempt at humor doesn't sit well with you. I wouldn't necessarily call any one a coward to their face (not that I would be afraid to say that to Wand or anyone else, if that is what you are implying, rather I would typically abstain out of basic courtesy) but that is the nature of pro sports: we the fans call it like we see it. Frankly TC I like your writing but if there is one problem I have with any of it, it's that you tend to write only in rosy view and refuse to be critical.

I think it is completely possible to be critical of someone or something without being overly personal. It is not very fashionable in this day and age, because our society revels in kicking people when they are down and dragging people down when they are up. Thanks for backing off some of what your wrote.

I would love to see in depth critical reviews of stuff without it getting personal. Usually, I see people getting personal in their criticism when they have little of substance to say about a situation. If you don't like Wand or whoever, back it up with facts, if not, I am just not very interested.

As for my overly rosy view, maybe I am not as ugly or dismissive (and making stuff up) as some in my assessments of things, but I ain't named Polly Anna either--I think if you have seen enough of what I've written here, you've seen some fairly critical stuff.

As for what has been written in the blog so far, I just don't have much reason to be critical of what the team is doing right now because I agree with the direction we are going and am in wait and see mode.

Double Barrel
06-16-2006, 04:30 PM
Hahaha. All of you seem to know this Joe Texan guy better than I do. You're not the first I've heard mention him. The same Joe Texan I see occasionally on this board?

yep, same Joe Texan.

The one and only (with two members of the Texans Demolition Crew):

http://sonicvoodoo.com/JoeTexan2.JPG

Another funny thing is that button they gave us at the All Access event. It said "I'm A Texan". But of course, Joe marked out the "A" and replaced it with "Joe", so his button said "I'm Joe Texan". :heh:

You can see him in action here (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1966), for the 2005 Ultimate Fan Contest. Interestly enough, our very own Texans Chick is on there, too!

lol: lol: Bro that is the funniest thing I have heard in a while, dude that must have been side splitting...........

Without a doubt, he was proud of himself. His persona is not an act. He calls it like he sees it. I bet P.Buch will remember that conversation, though!

nunusguy
06-16-2006, 04:50 PM
Speaking of Wand, I met him at the All Access thing, and shook his hand (nice guy, too). His grip basically swallowed my hand, and I've got pretty good sized hands. Not like the bear paws of Wand, though. That guy is humongous. I sincerely hope he has an excellent year, for both his career and the fate of the Texans.
He's a real class guy, and very thoughtful. I know for a fact that he made a
very generous charitable contribution to his hometown HS in Springfield, Mo.
And its not like he was a first rounder who got a multimillion dollar signing bonus - he was taken in the third round.

hollywood_texan
06-16-2006, 06:04 PM
I would love to see in depth critical reviews of stuff without it getting personal. Usually, I see people getting personal in their criticism when they have little of substance to say about a situation. If you don't like Wand or whoever, back it up with facts, if not, I am just not very interested.



Actually, I don't see people getting too personal about the players, they are just passionate in about describing what they see. However, I see more of people on this board making it personal between other people on this board. For example, one person commented that one of my postings was "twisted". Or, I can't wait to prove you wrong so I can throw it in your face, that seems to always be a recurring theme.

We are way more personal in our discussion among ourselves than we are about the players. Just my perspective.

Even though there are times when there are personal attacks on players, I really don't care. First, they make millions. Second, they play a violent sport, so if they can handle that, they can handle someone posting something on a message board.

As for personal attacks on this board, I really don't care about that either. What is said on this board is similar to what happens on the field. When the play or game is over, time to just hang out and have a laugh.

IMO, you really shouldn't take anything too seriously on this board. Learn some other points of view, be passionate about it, and move on. I think that is the point of message board, just to get it all out there.

jerek
06-16-2006, 07:00 PM
As for what has been written in the blog so far, I just don't have much reason to be critical of what the team is doing right now because I agree with the direction we are going and am in wait and see mode.

Frankly I would be searching long and hard to come up with negatives about the Texans at this point in time as well. This is the first time since inception that I can remember loving our every offseason move. I simply cannot point to any one personnel decision we've made in this offseason and say "I don't like that." It is wait and see right now and the anticipation is killing me. As much as I may not think highly of some of our players, I would readily agree that it's hard to be too hard on just about anyone at this point.

Texans_Chick
06-16-2006, 10:44 PM
Actually, I don't see people getting too personal about the players, they are just passionate in about describing what they see. However, I see more of people on this board making it personal between other people on this board. For example, one person commented that one of my postings was "twisted". Or, I can't wait to prove you wrong so I can throw it in your face, that seems to always be a recurring theme.

We are way more personal in our discussion among ourselves than we are about the players. Just my perspective.

As for personal attacks on this board, I really don't care about that either. What is said on this board is similar to what happens on the field. When the play or game is over, time to just hang out and have a laugh.

IMO, you really shouldn't take anything too seriously on this board. Learn some other points of view, be passionate about it, and move on. I think that is the point of message board, just to get it all out there.

A true personal attack against another message board member is against the terms of service for participation. The reason for this is that it is no fun looking for actual information about the team, when the topic turns too much to the members being goofy and nasty about stuff.

Some MB are fun to visit because you get something out of it, and some MBs are a joke because anything thoughtful gets drown in a sea of ugliness. For a sports MB, the Texans MB is first rate and I'd like to help keep it that way.

Even though there are times when there are personal attacks on players, I really don't care. First, they make millions. Second, they play a violent sport, so if they can handle that, they can handle someone posting something on a message board.

That is an interesting ethical system you have there. It's OK to say ugly things about people if they are rich and play a violent sport? Why don't you just spill beer on their pregnant wives while you are at it?

I betcha if you got to know some of these players, maybe played golf with them or hung out, you would just see them as people.

Usually such personal attacks: 1. take away from the point you are trying to make because people only see the venom and not the substance; 2. are often used as a substitute for logic and reason and actually knowing what you are talking about; 3. result in trollfests because people start talking more about tone of comments instead of actual football stuff; 4. sometimes stem from jealousy and insecurity and just plain maliciousness and attention-seeking.

I am always looking for reasoned points of view that may be different than mine. What bugs me is when people use personal attacks on players as a shorthand for not actually saying anything of substance.

My system is easy. I am a fan. If someone is on my team, I will root for them until they are not on my team any more. If they are not playing the way I would like, I like to try to find out why. I am not sure why I am supposed to take joy in figuring ways to slag people on the team I root for.

GP
06-17-2006, 09:26 PM
You seem to be the angry one. In addition, making some reference to my dating life in high school is irrelevant to Carr, which is my point. You even go further to say Carr has everything I want. You are taking personal swipes at me and I simply expressing my point of view on Carr's play.

My point was an analogy how Capers was the same way as Carr and Capers was tossed. Why not explain that one?

Look I am sure Carr is great person from everything I have read and is a committed family guy. Which I think is a lot more admirable in life than being successful in the NFL.

But there are subtle truths to life. You either win or you don't. You have heard this one, "nice guys finish last." Both of those items are so true to the NFL.

No one, and I mean no one, gets to be successful in life at that stage by just being a good person. That is how the world works, like it or not.

So calm down and relax.

And remember this when Kubiak benches Carr, it won't be personal, it will be business! Just as my discussion of Carr.

I'll explain it in one sentence, void of emotionalism:

Carr submitted to his head coach's gameplan and he paid for it for four years, but Carr was given control of the playcalling for the first half of the Cardinals game last season and set the place on fire (grabbing a Texans record points in a half, if I'm not mistaken?), but then control of the playcalling was given back to Capers at the half and the team bogs down the rest of the game...as it always has under Capers.

I think that pretty much explains why one guy is gone and one guy remains.

See how easy it is to post something void of emotion, and then to have it absolutely shine like gold?

hollywood_texan
06-18-2006, 05:58 PM
Deleted.

hollywood_texan
06-18-2006, 06:01 PM
Deleted.

hollywood_texan
06-18-2006, 06:09 PM
Deleted.

the wonger need food
06-18-2006, 08:09 PM
I'll explain it in one sentence, void of emotionalism:

Carr submitted to his head coach's gameplan and he paid for it for four years, but Carr was given control of the playcalling for the first half of the Cardinals game last season and set the place on fire (grabbing a Texans record points in a half, if I'm not mistaken?), but then control of the playcalling was given back to Capers at the half and the team bogs down the rest of the game...as it always has under Capers.

I think that pretty much explains why one guy is gone and one guy remains.

See how easy it is to post something void of emotion, and then to have it absolutely shine like gold?

During that game, they ran offtackle (mostly left) just about every play. Carr passed for under 100 yards and no TD's. Arizona adjusted at halftime.

Carr has played basically 1 really good half (v. Minnesota in '04) his entire career. Is 4 seasons of futility all coaching and schemes? We'll certainly have that answer in '06.

GP
06-18-2006, 10:13 PM
During that game, they ran offtackle (mostly left) just about every play. Carr passed for under 100 yards and no TD's. Arizona adjusted at halftime.

Carr has played basically 1 really good half (v. Minnesota in '04) his entire career. Is 4 seasons of futility all coaching and schemes? We'll certainly have that answer in '06.

Here's the link to the Arizona game (play-by-play): http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051218_ARI@HOU

IMO, it's not a matter of whether Carr passed his way to those 1st half 24 points...or whether he handed the ball off and the running game gets the credit. It's an issue of calling the "right" plays at the right time, and it was Carr at the wheel of the first half doing just that. He's the guy who knows his team, knows it's abilities better than anyone, and he called (in my opinion) the right plays at the right time to throw the Cardinals off their game.

I have not recounted the entire play-by-play...but I felt by scanning through it, it looked like there was a lot of sacks and maybe hurried passes in the second half...as opposed to a more balanced run-and-pass attack in the first half. Again, I haven't devoured the play-by-play yet. But, the fact is that Carr was leading the charge in the first half as requested by Mcnair/Reeves.

Four years of bad coaching? Yep. Except for one half.

Hulk75
06-19-2006, 12:06 AM
During that game, they ran offtackle (mostly left) just about every play. Carr passed for under 100 yards and no TD's. Arizona adjusted at halftime.

Carr has played basically 1 really good half (v. Minnesota in '04) his entire career. Is 4 seasons of futility all coaching and schemes? We'll certainly have that answer in '06.
Wow:rolleyes: , why in the heck is he still here.:confused:

blockhead83
06-19-2006, 03:43 AM
I just wanted to chime in and say that David Carr hasn't been mediocre solely because of poor o-line play. Also, the offensive line's pitiful play can be attributed to more than bad coaching and lackluster schemes. The fact of the matter is David Carr's success, or lack there of, is tied to that of our offensive line, and vice versa in the sense of pass protection.

It's been said a number of times in the past few years that even a good quarterback would struggle behind our line; Probably, but I think even the great evaluator, Kubiak himself, has attributed some of our sack numbers to David's inept awareness of the pocket. The talent on our offensive line isn't that bad, IMO, guys like Wand have great measurables. As a matter of fact, David Carr is phenomenally talented too, but it just so happens that neither entity has translated those measurables to the field in 4 seasons. Kubiak and the new staff seem to believe that the talent is indeed here, and that it can indeed be made into a successful offense. Kubiak has plenty of experience with successful offenses and his job depends on our offensive, and in particular David Carr's, transition so I tend to think he's right at this juncture.

So a quick summerization: David Carr and our offensive line have both sucked for four years which can ,to some unknown extent, be attributed to poor coaching. They both appear to have talent based on their measurables and college careers. Kubiak thinks he can make them achieve their potential despite their inability to do it previously. Let's kick back and enjoy.