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Texans34Life
06-08-2006, 01:36 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3949041.html

Buchanon tackles opportunity
Texans CB tries to make the most of second chance

By MEGAN MANFULL
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

The first time Gary Kubiak saw cornerback Phillip Buchanon this offseason, they were walking through the tunnels in Reliant Stadium. As they stopped to talk, Buchanon steered the conversation toward his most memorable play of last season — the one he didn't make.

Buchanon was sure Kubiak already had heard about the infamous time he missed a tackle against the Pittsburgh Steelers and gave up a big play to Willie Parker. It was after that game — just the second of the season — that Buchanon was demoted and criticized for not being a good tackler.

"I had no idea," Kubiak said. "I hadn't seen the play or talked about it."

Eventually Kubiak and defensive coordinator Richard Smith heard about Buchanon's struggles in 2005. They heard of his problems tackling, and Smith called Buchanon in for a one-on-one meeting.

"There are some things I had heard about Phillip's past a year ago that weren't too positive," Smith said. "I explained to him that this is a new coaching staff, and we start from scratch from day one."

It was just the message Buchanon needed to hear after a tumultuous season.

"They blamed me for not tackling, but I was just trying to make a play and it ended up looking like I didn't want to tackle," said Buchanon, who was acquired by the Texans in a trade with Oakland for second- and third-round picks in 2005. "I talked to a lot of guys who play my position, and they told me to stay calm and do what you do. Things happen, and I just look forward to bigger and better things."

After almost every practice this offseason, Buchanon has remained on the field with assistant defensive backs coach Martin Bayless. As the rest of the team escapes the heat, Buchanon hits a dummy over and over.

Smith has emphasized with the defensive unit that everyone will cover and everyone will tackle. He has been impressed with Buchanon's speed, athletic ability and cover skills. He now wants to make sure there are no more questions about Buchanon's tackling abilities when the season starts.

"Players will do what you emphasize them to do," Smith said. "Let's not assume we've got it fixed. Let's make sure we've got it fixed because that's what they pay you as a coach to do."

Buchanon insists he has no problems tackling, but he is not complaining about the extra work. His focus is on trying to earn back his starting job. He is currently slated as the nickel back, with Dunta Robinson and Demarcus Faggins starting.

Buchanon's coaches aren't the only ones impressed with how much of an improvement he has made this offseason.

"I think he looks more comfortable," Robinson said. "I think he's more comfortable with the players. The coaches have a lot of confidence in him, so I think that makes him more comfortable.

"Last year, he wasn't the same player he was in Oakland. It all has to do with being comfortable with the system. He's been talking about how good he feels about this system, and you can see it out on the field. His play is a lot different. He's making plays."

That's what bothered Buchanon the most last year. He wasn't making plays. He prided himself on that during his three seasons with Oakland. He scored four touchdowns off interception returns with the Raiders and returned three punts for touchdowns.

He has yet to reach the end zone as a Texan.

"My thing is, I like making plays," Buchanon said. "I like when people see me and say, 'Hey, that's Buchanon. He makes plays.'

"Last year, it was a long year without me making any plays. Last year was just a real down year, a real bad year for the team and individually."

Buchanon may have more opportunities than ever to make those plays this year. He is pegged as one of the Texans' top three corners, their primary punt returner and possibly their kickoff returner since Jerome Mathis is out with an injury.

"Phillip's a very talented young man," Kubiak said. "He can help this football team big-time as a corner, and he can be one of the best returners in football. We're asking more out of him than we got last year, and he's giving it to us every day."

Ibar_Harry
06-08-2006, 01:53 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3949041.html

The common thread in all of these uplifting statements from people we have thrown on the trash heap is Kubiak and his coaches. They look at Caper's trash heap and they are going OMG what a diamond in the ruff. Whe simply need to transform this gem into a player. You can say this of Carr, PBuc, Wand, Peek, Babin, even perhapes Mario. The name of the game in the NFL is coaching. I don't know how long we will be able to retain this coaching staff, but enjoy the ride while it lasts. You aren't going to see something like this very often in your life time. This is going to be an amazing year.

texan279
06-08-2006, 01:55 AM
The common thread in all of these uplifting statements from people we have thrown on the trash heap is Kubiak and his coaches. They look at Caper's trash heap and they are going OMG what a diamond in the ruff. Whe simply need to transform this gem into a player. You can say this of Carr, PBuc, Wand, Peek, Babin, even perhapes Mario. The name of the game in the NFL is coaching. I don't know how long we will be able to retain this coaching staff, but enjoy the ride while it lasts. You aren't going to see something like this very often in your life time. This is going to be an amazing year.

If we can put together a string of solid of winning seasons I hope Kubiak sticks with us like Cowher has with Pittsburgh.

Texans86
06-08-2006, 01:58 AM
If we can put together a string of solid of winning seasons I hope Kubiak sticks with us like Cowher has with Pittsburgh.

The head coach is obviously important, but it's his staff that he put together this year that could be even more important. Mike Sherman won't be an assistant for much longer I'm sure. And do we still have our old D-backs coach. I think he was offered to stay on here, but then offered a higher position job elsewhere. If he's still here, he won't be for much longer too. Quality assistants move on all the time.

mancunian
06-08-2006, 07:36 AM
If we can put together a string of solid of winning seasons I hope Kubiak sticks with us like Cowher has with Pittsburgh.

If we put together winning seasons Kubiak will have no reason to leave - it might cost us a bit more for his salary! As native of Houston he'll want to turn his home town team into a dynasty. Regular winning visits to the SB, regulars in the Play Offs and team to be feared EVERY season.:play:

Kaiser Toro
06-08-2006, 08:09 AM
Good article. Mea Culpas are a step onto the road to recovery. We need PBuch this year.

TEXANRED
06-08-2006, 08:18 AM
I think Pbuc can turn it around. He is still young, athletic, quick and smart. I am looking forward to watching Pbuc this year.

This is the way that I see it. Drob is a hitter but gives up the big play. Pbuc is a play maker but gives up the big play. The only CB we have ever had that was a solid cover corner was Glenn and we let him go north. What we need is a pair of solid safeties so our two corners can take there chances and do there thing.

One more thing, how come we always talk about the wiff and never the game winning pass defense against cleveland?

Runner
06-08-2006, 08:33 AM
I think all of us posters could learn something from Kubiak and his staff's attitude of starting everyone with a blank slate and see where it goes from here. After all, "bad coaching" wasn't just a platitude to describe last year, it affected many players in many different ways.

gsbtxn
06-08-2006, 08:55 AM
One more thing, how come we always talk about the wiff and never the game winning pass defense against cleveland?

If we did talk about it, we would say he was beat, the pass was underthrown and he got lucky.:stirpot:

wicked_wayz
06-08-2006, 09:05 AM
i wish p buc all the best under the new scheme, and i have have nothing but hopes that he becomes that shut down corner that he was drafted to be.

wicked_wayz
06-08-2006, 09:08 AM
This is the way that I see it. Drob is a hitter but gives up the big play. Pbuc is a play maker but gives up the big play. The only CB we have ever had that was a solid cover corner was Glenn and we let him go north. What we need is a pair of solid safeties so our two corners can take there chances and do there thing.

i second that statement,that i too hope that both earl and CC become solid safeties during the season so that our corners can take risks and make plays

Runner
06-08-2006, 09:12 AM
i wish p buc all the best under the new scheme, and i have have nothing but hopes that he becomes that shut down corner that he was drafted to be.

That would certainly make us a better team.

I get the feeling some people want to see this guy (and other favorite Texans whipping boys) fail so they don't have to say something like:

"He is better than I thought"

which is uncomfortably close to

"I was wrong".

AFD1717
06-08-2006, 09:16 AM
If a player doesn't perform as well as hoped, it is for one of two reasons:

1. He is playing the best he can, but is simply a marginal player. Maybe better suited to be a backup. (Glen Earl, CC Brown, Victor Riley)

2. He isn't playing up to his ability due to poor coaching, poor work habits, or both. (Jason Babin, Seth Wand, Travis Johnson)

Buchanon is in the second group. He has all the ability in the world and if someone can get him to play like it, we will have a very good CB on our hands.

nunusguy
06-08-2006, 09:21 AM
I think Pbuc can turn it around. He is still young, athletic, quick and smart. I am looking forward to watching Pbuc this year.

I dunno.....don't want to be a pessimist, but P-Burnt had a brand new, fresh
start last year with new coaches, new team, new system and he cra##ed all
over the field the very second game of the season. Now he's had the off season to fabricate some yarn about how he was just trying to make a play
on his infamoust nontackle on the Pitt RB. I would have rather heard him take
responsibility for his pathetic moment.
As it is, he may be the second biggest beneficiary after Seth Wand of this new regime: lets see if he can take advantage of his second chance in two
consecutive years with the Texans. It may be his last chance in the NFL to do so.

TEXANRED
06-08-2006, 09:26 AM
I dunno.....don't want to be a pessimist, but P-Burnt had a brand new, fresh
start last year with new coaches, new team, new system and he cra##ed all
over the field the very second game of the season. Now he's had the off season to fabricate some yarn about how he was just trying to make a play
on his infamoust nontackle on the Pitt RB. I would have rather heard him take
responsibility for his pathetic moment.
As it is, he may be the second biggest beneficiary after Seth Wand of this new regime: lets see if he can take advantage of his second chance in two
consecutive years with the Texans. It may be his last chance in the NFL to do so.
Vic Fangio

Runner
06-08-2006, 09:40 AM
As it is, he may be the second biggest beneficiary after Seth Wand of this new regime

Probably true. Since the coaches haven't been shy about letting go of the players who they don't think measure up, let's hope the they are good talent evaluators and are accurately predicting how the new systems will affect current players.

For instance, has anyone every studied how well P-Buc covers for 3-5 seconds vs. the 5-7 seconds that was required last year due to lack of pass rush? ( I don't know the real number of seconds, I'm just throwing those out as illustrations). Or do we all just remember the ole and leave it at that?

For Wand's case, does everyone remember just the 12 sacks in 2004, none of which the board ever attributed to the RB or QB as we are so quick to do now? Do we consider the lack of penalties or the fact that he was arguably the best run blocker the Texans have ever had?

I think the coaches are looking at all facets of play, not just the ones we beat into the ground here. I think this goes for all the players - Carr, Dre, Dunta, Joppru, McKinney, Mario - everybody. I think the coaches are developing a true picture of skills and will leverage what we have. Call me an optimist.

hot pickle
06-08-2006, 09:45 AM
i was excited about the trade, when we got him, but had to hate him during the season, but now im excited again

best of luck to him this season

Marcus
06-08-2006, 10:01 AM
I have one question for all of you.

Did we . . . or did we not . . . get an effective pass rush on the opposing QB last year? Yes or no?

The answer should be obvious to anyone who watched or listened to any of the games last year. So therefore, it should be obvious why PBuch sucked, or DRob sucked, ot the safeties sucked.

If the front 7 sucks, then the secondary will suck. There's never been a case in NFL history where a secondary played well if the guys up front couldn't get pressure. NEVER!

So this jive about . . .
What we need is a pair of solid safeties so our two corners can take there chances and do there thing.

I second that statement,that i too hope that both earl and CC become solid safeties during the season so that our corners can take risks and make plays
. . . our safeties needing to play better, so our corners can play better is . . . silly putty.

Our safeties, and our corners, will play better if, if, . if . .

Let's see now. What was the area of the team that had the most attention this offseason? We'll see how it plays out.

wicked_wayz
06-08-2006, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE=Marcus]If the front 7 sucks, then the secondary will suck. There's never been a case in NFL history where a secondary played well if the guys up front couldn't get pressure. NEVER!QUOTE]

yeah i got to agree with that, even KB said it himself that the Dline was the key in improving our secondary. thanks for clearing it up. but yeah you are right we can only find out when the season starts

TEXANRED
06-08-2006, 10:23 AM
I have one question for all of you.

Did we . . . or did we not . . . get an effective pass rush on the opposing QB last year? Yes or no?

The answer should be obvious to anyone who watched or listened to any of the games last year. So therefore, it should be obvious why PBuch sucked, or DRob sucked, ot the safeties sucked.

If the front 7 sucks, then the secondary will suck. There's never been a case in NFL history where a secondary played well if the guys up front couldn't get pressure. NEVER!

So this jive about . . .

. . . our safeties needing to play better, so our corners can play better is . . . silly putty.

Our safeties, and our corners, will play better if, if, . if . .

Let's see now. What was the area of the team that had the most attention this offseason? We'll see how it plays out.
Man, theres a whole lot of suckin going on!

No we didnt have a pass rush. However, when Drob or Pbuc or Faggins made a move on the ball and failed not once did I see safety help. What I did see a whole lot of was our safeties playing shallow and stopping the run or defending the short to indermediate routes leaving our corners exposed to the deep pass. How many times last year did we see Coleman tailing the play?

Instinct counts for alot when playing the safety position. You only have a second to see what the running back, TE, and receivers are doing when the formations break. We gave up alot of deep balls last year.

Exascor
06-08-2006, 11:02 AM
Instinct counts for alot when playing the safety position. You only have a second to see what the running back, TE, and receivers are doing when the formations break. We gave up alot of deep balls last year.Very true but so does being in the proper position before the play starts. Fangio's D always seemed to have someone out of position imo. Maybe it was the players that weren't good enough to get into position but after years of watching the horrible defense, I blame Fangio for everything. He is my "official" scapegoat for the defense.

Of course everything gets tied together though. Without a decent front 7 you tend to bring a safety up for run support more often. That makes the secondary more vulnerable to the pass. Without a pass rush it's even worse.

It was a big Fangio, Palmer, Pendry & Capers circle of incompetence. The offense was the same. No pass protection lead to short drops and pass routes. Short drops and pass routes lead to more defenders able to pass rush.

Man am I glad to see change.

Marcus
06-08-2006, 11:04 AM
What I did see a whole lot of was our safeties playing shallow and stopping the run or defending the short to indermediate routes leaving our corners exposed to the deep pass. How many times last year did we see Coleman tailing the play?
Which leads right back to the front 7, and their inability to cover or find the ball on the run. There is a reason why CC (a safety) nearly led the team in tackles.

We gave up alot of deep balls last year.
And what to you expect when you're forced to leave the corners exposed on man coverage because you're too busy bailing out the front 7?

Quit punking the safeties. They did a decent job last year considering the lack of support from the rest of the defense. If the people up front would just do their jobs, maybe the corners would get some safety help. But if it's not the case, the corners are on their own.

Blu
06-08-2006, 11:06 AM
Like other have said, no pass rush, no safety help at all last year. That's one reason the oposing teams had all day to pick apart who ever played opposite DRob.

That being said, Smith and the DB coaches could make him another hard corner to deal with. Let's hope the "Ole's" become a thing of the past, and PBuc learns to lay a lick like Ronnie Lott.

jerek
06-08-2006, 11:17 AM
P-Buc has always had the talent to succeed. My only question has been his motivation level. A guy can learn the skills; learn to stop avoiding contact and a guy can learn to hit. Frankly I can't fault our secondary for just about anything last year because their coordinator was an utter bonehead, but even in the midst of that, there were times where P-Buc looked particularly unmotivated. I hope he turns the corner, because he is an exciting talent and we need him to be a starter and a big contributor for us.

TEXANRED
06-08-2006, 11:54 AM
Quit punking the safeties.
I am not punking the safeties. I am simpley stating that in my opinion none of our safeties have ever played any better than Matt Stevens. We had Coleman piggy backing players like Stevens did to Rickey Williams in year 2.

I generally have an optimistic view about he team b/c in one fashion or another there have been moments of brilliance. I haven't seen that from our safety position.

I will be more than happy, even greatfull, to belly up to the table and eat a big ol helping of crow and even ask for seconds.

I hope I am wrong and it was Fangio.

Porky
06-08-2006, 12:11 PM
I really like Pburnt's attpempt to rewrite history. If anyone really thinks he was "trying to make a play", then I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale you may be interested in. The problem here is can a leopard change his spots? The jury is still WAY out for me on that question, leaning no. Most of the time, once guys reach this level, they are what they are in respect to their overall mentatlity and physicality. I ain't buying what Mr. Pburnt is selling unil I see it on the field. Talk is cheap.

powerfuldragon
06-08-2006, 12:13 PM
I like how he approached kubiak to talk ABOUT his wiffed tackle. I like how he stays after practice to continue practicing tackling. I can say that this article changed my opinion of him.

Now i just have to wait for the start of the season to see what he does.

Texans_Chick
06-08-2006, 12:19 PM
P-Buc has always had the talent to succeed. My only question has been his motivation level. A guy can learn the skills; learn to stop avoiding contact and a guy can learn to hit. Frankly I can't fault our secondary for just about anything last year because their coordinator was an utter bonehead, but even in the midst of that, there were times where P-Buc looked particularly unmotivated. I hope he turns the corner, because he is an exciting talent and we need him to be a starter and a big contributor for us.


I get really uncomfortable with people talking about the motivations of players because this is not something that you can generally see from the stands. There is no motivation mindmelt thingy that you can do to tell if someone is trying or not.

When I went to the coaching clinic a while back, the first thing that DB coach Jon Hoke talked about is keeping things simple. Because as he put it is hard in a loud stadium, with your heart rate up high, to make split second decision making if your scheme is too complex. (He did not criticize anything from last year, but I thought it was interesting that he made a point of talking about that first).

At least what I was seeing last year, Buchanon looked like he was very uncomfortable with the scheme near the beginning of the year. Fangio schemes all had the reputation for being more difficult for young and new players to learn.

Unless someone is totally going completely Randy Moss on you, I just hate putting the unmotivated tag on anyone.

BTW, here is my take on the secondary and PBuc from the fanblog in case you missed it: Fanblog: Texans "How about the secondary? Are the Texans toast?" (http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/2006/05/how_about_the_secondary_are_th.html)

jerek
06-08-2006, 12:30 PM
I get really uncomfortable with people talking about the motivations of players because this is not something that you can generally see from the stands. There is no motivation mindmelt thingy that you can do to tell if someone is trying or not.

When I went to the coaching clinic a while back, the first thing that DB coach Jon Hoke talked about is keeping things simple. Because as he put it is hard in a loud stadium, with your heart rate up high, to make split second decision making if your scheme is too complex. (He did not criticize anything from last year, but I thought it was interesting that he made a point of talking about that first).

At least what I was seeing last year, Buchanon looked like he was very uncomfortable with the scheme near the beginning of the year. Fangio schemes all had the reputation for being more difficult for young and new players to learn.

Unless someone is totally going completely Randy Moss on you, I just hate putting the unmotivated tag on anyone.

BTW, here is my take on the secondary and PBuc from the fanblog in case you missed it: Fanblog: Texans "How about the secondary? Are the Texans toast?" (http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/2006/05/how_about_the_secondary_are_th.html)

Okay, here is my "list" of problems with last year's secondary:

1. Vic Fangio (too complicated)

2. Vic Fangio (misuse of personnel)

3. Vic Fangio (no respect)

4. Vic Fangio (just plain bad)

Somewhere on down that list, if I were to continue with it, would be P-Buc himself. I agree that it is difficult to question a player's motivations (from the stands). Other times, a guy just plain gives up on the play, and it appeared that P-Buc did that a few too many times last year.

My question of his motivation was a general one, and I probably should have framed it better. I admit that I am not particularly well informed on the guy. I surely don't know him personally, and though I have been around him, I can't say with any true certainty that my perception is correct. It was just a perception, so take FWIW.

Maybe he truly just was uncomfortable in the new system (and I wouldn't fault him for it) so that carried with it deeper implications that I am giving credit for. But. Some of his plays looked bad. He came out of Oakland with a rep for half-assing it (again, not nearly in the same vein as a Randy Moss), but okay, there again, maybe it's just bad rumor. Point being, I don't really know, so it's just my perception.

But ... wasn't it Buchanon that broke up that final hail mary against the Browns? Either way, I am glad Hoke is still here. I have met him, had lunch with him even, and he is a good guy, and I think he has the respect of the players. He is a solid coach and it pissed me off to watch Fangio overrule some of his technique decisions last year.

P-Buc has the talent to be an upper-echelon CB. Again, I don't oarticularly fault any of our secondary for last year, because in the end it was our DC and our OC's inability to keep the O onfield for any length of time. I am looking forward to seeing P-Buc in a real system this year. I just hope he turns the corner and gets past this "mental block" we all keep reading about. Reading it often don't make it so, but when it seems to confirm what we saw on the field last year, it gets harder to discredit it.

hollywood_texan
06-08-2006, 12:47 PM
Buchannon will probably not tackle that much better in the future. Also, he can say he was trying to make a play, but he clearly let Parker run by him.

Having said that, I think Buchannon can still provide needed impact on the team but the Texans need to use him in the areas that are his strenghts.

He has the speed to be a cover guy and have him return punts and kickoffs.

A player doesn't have to be everything, he just need to be a net positive to the team.

Buchannon definitely has that if used properly. Let's just not count on him making those tough tackles.

real
06-08-2006, 01:03 PM
I dunno...I looked at the play yesterday, and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...Maybe he was going to try and strip him...???????

SESupergenius
06-08-2006, 01:14 PM
You're fooling yourselves if you think Buchanon has all of the sudden gained elite cornerback status. I'll give him a little room for improvement, but after watching him now for a few seasons, it's difficult for me to think that all of the sudden his 4th NFL coach is going to pull some strings on him and make him in the player he was supposed to be. Exactly what play was he trying to make on the infamous "whiff"? And Kubiak never saw this play? Come on this is just a total typical off-season fluff piece. Nothing insightfull at all in my mind.

Runner
06-08-2006, 01:22 PM
You're fooling yourselves if you think Buchanon has all of the sudden gained elite cornerback status.

If you are strong at some positions, being average at other positions is good enough from a team viewpoint. Elite may be out of reach, but I'd settle for merely adequate out of P-Buc this season, especially if our d-line lives up to it's potential.

aj.
06-08-2006, 01:32 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3949041.html

Sorry, but I don't see what MM is seeing. I see the same ole same ole. Berman had a similar feel good story on PB last night and I don't know what they are seeing or what they are basing all this on ....

Hoke was on PBs ass all day yesterday. "Keep your eyes low, you're guessin" screamed Hoke as a backup WR made PB look bad when he bit on a fake.....

Porky
06-08-2006, 01:37 PM
If you are strong at some positions, being average at other positions is good enough from a team viewpoint. Elite may be out of reach, but I'd settle for merely adequate out of P-Buc this season, especially if our d-line lives up to it's potential.

When he reaches adequate, let me know. As of now, he is the nickel corner, and a former 6th round pick rescued from the practice squad is playing in front of the first rd pick, and the guy we gave up two first day picks for. Y'all can smear all the lipstick you want to on this pig, but underneath it all, you are still kissing a pig.

TK_Gamer
06-08-2006, 01:43 PM
all i can say is, i sure am glad we didnt get rid of every player that gets bashed on this forum, we would'nt have 11 guys to line up.

Vambo, the Marble Eye
06-08-2006, 01:46 PM
If a player doesn't perform as well as hoped, it is for one of two reasons:

1. He is playing the best he can, but is simply a marginal player. Maybe better suited to be a backup. (Glen Earl, CC Brown, Victor Riley)

2. He isn't playing up to his ability due to poor coaching, poor work habits, or both. (Jason Babin, Seth Wand, Travis Johnson)

Buchanon is in the second group. He has all the ability in the world and if someone can get him to play like it, we will have a very good CB on our hands.

I second your point of view but perhaps not the examples... (CC Brown was a 6th round rookie last year that beat out the starter. Unless you are saying he isn't big enough, fast enough, smart enough, etc..we don't know what he can do, right?)

Runner
06-08-2006, 01:48 PM
When he reaches adequate, let me know.

I didn't state where he was, mainly because I haven't paid much attention to his play yet. My point was that I'd settle for adequate play at his position if we have other real strengths. I don't think a team can be strong at every position.

What is your opinion of this point? Is it black and white - either a player is an elite or he sucks and should get blasted on these boards, or do you think average players can have a vital role on a team? I'm not just talking about P-Buc in this question.

El Tejano
06-08-2006, 01:49 PM
If we can put together a string of solid of winning seasons I hope Kubiak sticks with us like Cowher has with Pittsburgh.
I don't know about you but this is the impression I got at the all access day. I just think this guy is going to be that kind of coach for us.

El Tejano
06-08-2006, 01:56 PM
all i can say is, i sure am glad we didnt get rid of every player that gets bashed on this forum, we would'nt have 11 guys to line up.
Yeah we would. They would just have to play the whole game.

Porky
06-08-2006, 02:02 PM
I didn't state where he was, mainly because I haven't paid much attention to his play yet. My point was that I'd settle for adequate play at his position if we have other real strengths. I don't think a team can be strong at every position.

What is your opinion of this point? Is it black and white - either a player is an elite or he sucks and should get blasted on these boards, or do you think average players can have a vital role on a team? I'm not just talking about P-Buc in this question.

Average players have a place on a team to be sure. But, a guy who was drafted in the first rd, and whose current team gave up two first day draft picks for, better be well above average. Not only that, but the guy has yet to be anywhere near average. He came off lazy, unmotivated, and timid. He can't even beat out a 6th round draft pick for a starting spot. At this point, if he can become average, so he isn't a total loss I will take it, but from a value standpoint, we gave up Aaron Glenn and two first day picks for an "average" player doesn't cut it if you want this team to go places.

Texans_Chick
06-08-2006, 02:03 PM
Sorry, but I don't see what MM is seeing. I see the same ole same ole. Berman had a similar feel good story on PB last night and I don't know what they are seeing or what they are basing all this on ....

I think it is just writing a story based on what common concerns of the fans are.

You know, hey we did all this stuff in the offseason, but what about the @#&$*%& secondary?

And the answer, the way the Texans are seeing it right now is, "Hey, we didn't make moves because we have some stuff here to work with if the parts are put in situations where they have an opportunity to succeed."

This is a story because what MM and Berman are doing is answering the questions that fans are asking about--have you fixed the secondary? And the answer is, the Texans think they have the parts, we just need to change the scheme and add some players on pass rush.

All of our assumptions about just about ALL our personnel are out the window with a radically different coaching staff. Who is Carr? Who is Buchanon? Who is our o-line? Peeps can call it putting lipstick on a pig or all sorts of insults du jour for someone who is out in the heat putting the work in, but right now everything is just talk. We just have to wait for the season to start to see how this all works.

And, as an aside, I am completely fine with articles of this ilk as some sort of counterbalance. Because I thought it was a terrible idea for Bob McNair to trash the PBuc trade in the media, basically calling it a terrible mistake, yet given the cheap contract, making PBuc someone who was gonna have to live on that same team the next year. It was part of the unhappiness that McNair had with Cass and then setting up the whole consultancy Reeves thingy, but the player was stuck in the middle of this political organizational thing--not very good from a team perspective and ot the way you want to run a team--with your owner blasting your GM in the media.

Given that public humiliation, I've been fairly surprised at how quiet Buchanon has been about all this stuff, because he could have blown up like he did in Oakland, and didn't do so.

The Bob McNair trashing is most of what the casual fan knows about Buchanon, so more of a rounded view of the situation (with the staff saying they think he has the tools), is completely fair and not just puffery.

I am completely cool with giving folks a clean slate with a new system--it is the best way to create more of a team.

Runner
06-08-2006, 02:09 PM
Average players have a place on a team to be sure. But, a guy who was drafted in the first rd, and whose current team gave up two first day draft picks for, better be well above average. Not only that, but the guy has yet to be anywhere near average. He came off lazy, unmotivated, and timid. He can't even beat out a 6th round draft pick for a starting spot. At this point, if he can become average, so he isn't a total loss I will take it, but from a value standpoint, we gave up Aaron Glenn and two first day picks for an "average" player doesn't cut it if you want this team to go places.

True, we gave up a lot for him but that wasn't his decision - although it does effect our expectations. At least he has a salary more in tune with average than elite. If he was highly paid he'd have a hard time making the team, I think.

Runner
06-08-2006, 02:15 PM
Given that public humiliation, I've been fairly surprised at how quiet Buchanon has been about all this stuff, because he could have blown up like he did in Oakland, and didn't do so.



For all the praise Moulds is getting for supplying guidance to Andre, maybe it should be pointed out that P-Buc hangs out with Andre too - last season as well. I wouldn't be surprised if Dre has been a positive influence on P-Buc's attitude.

Texans_Chick
06-08-2006, 02:17 PM
Average players have a place on a team to be sure. But, a guy who was drafted in the first rd, and whose current team gave up two first day draft picks for, better be well above average. Not only that, but the guy has yet to be anywhere near average. He came off lazy, unmotivated, and timid. He can't even beat out a 6th round draft pick for a starting spot. At this point, if he can become average, so he isn't a total loss I will take it, but from a value standpoint, we gave up Aaron Glenn and two first day picks for an "average" player doesn't cut it if you want this team to go places.


Some thoughts:

1. PBuc was not responsible for how the trade went down and how many picks the Texans gave up for him. Those are sunk costs. So no sense being bitter at him for them. The new coaching staff seems to be taking the approach that it doesn't matter where you were drafted and what your background is, or what happened in previous years--if you work hard and you can play, you'll be staying on the team. Refreshing.

2. "He came off lazy, unmotivated, and timid." In what way? Cuz somebody said it on the MB? EF Hutton told you? Do you know he wasn't putting the work in? There were plenty of other missed tackles in 2005--yet Buchanon becomes the whipping boy for all those failures because of how much we gave up to get him. At least from what I've heard, a lot of the secondary failures were related to scheme and inexperience with the system. We had CC Brown starting for us--a rookie late round pick. Secondaries need to work together and the whole defense was a mess from front to back.

3. Cornerback is a position where a lot of good players struggle right outta school. He's been with the Raiders and the Texans--not necessarily the best teaching grounds.

Just saying. If Kubiak says that the secondary is a strength of the team, well then, I'm gonna try to figure out why he is saying that, instead of judging everything through the prism of a 2-14 horror and players stuck in dreadful schemes that weren't putting people in a position to succeed.

Hervoyel
06-08-2006, 02:52 PM
If we can put together a string of solid of winning seasons I hope Kubiak sticks with us like Cowher has with Pittsburgh.

And I hope that once we see that happen McNair returns the favor and sticks with Kubiak during the down times like Pittsburgh has done with Cowher. It's not all trips to the playoffs and 10+ win seasons in this league. Sometimes you need to reload or get hit by the injury bug.

edo783
06-08-2006, 03:12 PM
And I hope that once we see that happen McNair returns the favor and sticks with Kubiak during the down times like Pittsburgh has done with Cowher. It's not all trips to the playoffs and 10+ win seasons in this league. Sometimes you need to reload or get hit by the injury bug.

I suspect that McNair would, but I doubt this fan base would give him much time.

Texas
06-08-2006, 03:40 PM
P-Buch has the potential to be as good or better then D-Rob...If he can learn the essentials needed and use his brain...I hope the staff can train him and get him going because we could use a 2nd good CB

SESupergenius
06-08-2006, 03:42 PM
Some thoughts:

1. PBuc was not responsible for how the trade went down and how many picks the Texans gave up for him. Those are sunk costs. So no sense being bitter at him for them. The new coaching staff seems to be taking the approach that it doesn't matter where you were drafted and what your background is, or what happened in previous years--if you work hard and you can play, you'll be staying on the team. Refreshing.He couldn't beat out anyone last year and when he was inserted into the lineup, what great feats did he produce? Aaron Glenn got some pretty good numbers in that defense, of which PBuke essentially replaced.

2. "He came off lazy, unmotivated, and timid." In what way? Cuz somebody said it on the MB? I know I for one have not let up on ANY of the cornerbacks in this defense, Buchanon is no different, but he is undoubted the a bigger cause of the problems than most. I regard Dunta has good 2nd cornerback, certainly not in an elite class. Oh, and all you had to do was watch a couple of games to see that Buchanon is stinky.....well before he got to Houston.

3. Cornerback is a position where a lot of good players struggle right outta school. He's been with the Raiders and the Texans--not necessarily the best teaching grounds. Cornerback is not. In fact cornerback is one of the most instinctive positions on the field that requires less technique than other postions. That's not to say they don't need coaching, but they certainly rely on their God-given talent more than most. I'd rather throw a rookie CB into the fire than a QB or Receiver.

rmartin65
06-08-2006, 03:43 PM
This is good that Pbuc seems to care about his tackling.

Texans_Chick
06-08-2006, 03:58 PM
He couldn't beat out anyone last year and when he was inserted into the lineup, what great feats did he produce? Aaron Glenn got some pretty good numbers in that defense, of which PBuke essentially replaced.

Experienced player vs. not so much. PBuc didn't really have much time to get used to the system--lots of tough teams early in the season, he gets pulled, starts playing a little better, and then gets hurt. You know, there were all sorts of teams that looked bad playing the Steelers last year.

AND, if your freaking offense is a 3 and out machine, your defense is going to look like a bucket of crap no matter who is playing on it.

Personally, I am not so interested in scapegoating and history reliving and more interested in information--like whether the secondary is feeling better in this scheme.

I know I for one have not let up on ANY of the cornerbacks in this defense, Buchanon is no different, but he is undoubted the a bigger cause of the problems than most. I regard Dunta has good 2nd cornerback, certainly not in an elite class. Oh, and all you had to do was watch a couple of games to see that Buchanon is stinky.....well before he got to Houston.

It would be interesting to see what the secondary would look like if the opposing QB didn't have time to set up a tailgate in the backfield.

Cornerback is not. In fact cornerback is one of the most instinctive positions on the field that requires less technique than other postions. That's not to say they don't need coaching, but they certainly rely on their God-given talent more than most. I'd rather throw a rookie CB into the fire than a QB or Receiver.

How about an entire secondary full of rookies??? It was a bunch of green players and a disgruntled Marcus Coleman. I don't care how talented you are, if you secondary is green and you have no pass rush, nobody is going to look particularly good.

Yeah, a rookie CB can play, but usually they get tested until they can show that they can play the position. The NFL is littered with promising rookie CB who lost their confidence from being repeatingly burned.

trane
06-08-2006, 04:12 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3949041.html

Seems there are three types of cornerbacks...the cover specialists, the hitmen, and the playmakers. P Buc's mindset is a playmaker but the problem is that you need to be a good cover corner to make plays and he is not there yet.

TheOgre
06-08-2006, 04:18 PM
Buchanon has all of the physical tools, but he hasn't shown any intangibles as far as I can tell.

AFD1717
06-08-2006, 05:29 PM
I second your point of view but perhaps not the examples... (CC Brown was a 6th round rookie last year that beat out the starter. Unless you are saying he isn't big enough, fast enough, smart enough, etc..we don't know what he can do, right?)

I certainly wasn't trying to bash Brown. I actually like the guy, but the fact that he was a 6th rounder that beat out a starter says as much about the starter as it does Brown. The league is filled with sixth round picks who play very well, but I don't expect Brown to get much better than he already is. He'll improve some with experience, but I'd feel much more comfortable if he were a backup than a starter. Maybe I didn't word my previous post very well. Part of my point was that Buchanon has a much higher ceiling than Brown but Brown may end up being the better player.

Brandon420tx
06-08-2006, 05:30 PM
I certainly wasn't trying to bash Brown. I actually like the guy, but the fact that he was a 6th rounder that beat out a starter says as much about the starter as it does Brown. The league is filled with sixth round picks who play very well, but I don't expect Brown to get much better than he already is. He'll improve some with experience, but I'd feel much more comfortable if he were a backup than a starter. Maybe I didn't word my previous post very well. Part of my point was that Buchanon has a much higher ceiling than Brown but Brown may end up being the better player.
Brown got a pick in camp today :)

hollywood_texan
06-08-2006, 05:34 PM
Buchanon has all of the physical tools, but he hasn't shown any intangibles as far as I can tell.

That sounds like someone on the offensive side of the ball that fits the same assessment.

hollywood_texan
06-08-2006, 05:39 PM
I mentioned this earlier in this thread but I didn't see anyone take notice.

The team should play to his strengths, he should be returning punts at a minimum and kickoffs until Mathis get better. From what I have read and seen, he has the talent to do both.

Then if you work in some CB duties, this could work out in terms of production.

How we got him is done (totally agree with you Porky), let's make the best of it. That at least gives him a shot to stay with the team because I think this is the last year of his contract.

SESupergenius
06-09-2006, 12:46 AM
Experienced player vs. not so much. PBuc didn't really have much time to get used to the system--lots of tough teams early in the season, he gets pulled, starts playing a little better, and then gets hurt. You know, there were all sorts of teams that looked bad playing the Steelers last year.That's a line for rookies, not a veteran like Buchanon. The beauty of it all was that Buchanon had already seen the 3-4 prior to last year and was supposed to step right in and contribute. We were told that if he played consistantly then he'd be good for us. The only thing he is consistant at is being inconsistant.

How about an entire secondary full of rookies??? It was a bunch of green players and a disgruntled Marcus Coleman. I don't care how talented you are, if you secondary is green and you have no pass rush, nobody is going to look particularly good.

Yeah, a rookie CB can play, but usually they get tested until they can show that they can play the position. The NFL is littered with promising rookie CB who lost their confidence from being repeatingly burned.Tell that to the Eagles that pretty much gutted their secondary and made it to the playoffs...and hold on....Superbowl.

A group of green secondary players is going to be ahead in development than a group green offensive players.

infantrycak
06-09-2006, 10:04 AM
Tell that to the Eagles that pretty much gutted their secondary and made it to the playoffs...and hold on....Superbowl.

A group of green secondary players is going to be ahead in development than a group green offensive players.

Well, that is a bit of an overstatement. Lito Sheppard was a 2002 1st round draft pick and was on his 3rd year in the league/2nd year as a starter when they went to the SB. Sheldon Brown was a 2002 2nd round draft pick nd was on his 3rd year in the leagu/2nd year as a starter when they went to the SB. Michael Lewis SS was a 2002 2nd round pick and 4 year starter. Brian Dawkins FS was 2nd round pick and an 8 year starter at that point. Basically they let Bobby Taylor and Troy Vincent (older and more expensive players) go for two high draft picks they had developed in the system for at least a year.

SESupergenius
06-09-2006, 01:34 PM
Well, that is a bit of an overstatement. Lito Sheppard was a 2002 1st round draft pick and was on his 3rd year in the league/2nd year as a starter when they went to the SB. Sheldon Brown was a 2002 2nd round draft pick nd was on his 3rd year in the leagu/2nd year as a starter when they went to the SB. Michael Lewis SS was a 2002 2nd round pick and 4 year starter. Brian Dawkins FS was 2nd round pick and an 8 year starter at that point. Basically they let Bobby Taylor and Troy Vincent (older and more expensive players) go for two high draft picks they had developed in the system for at least a year.
Oh and what there not an overexaggeration on Dunta (his 2nd year, 2nd year starting) and Buchanon (3rd year, 3rd year starting)

infantrycak
06-09-2006, 01:52 PM
Oh and what there not an overexaggeration on Dunta (his 2nd year, 2nd year starting) and Buchanon (3rd year, 3rd year starting)

I was only addressing the part about Philly gutting their secondary and making it to the SB. P-Buc should pick things up faster than a pure rookie. OTOH it does take at least a little while for anyone to learn a new system. P-Buc will be on his 4th NFL system not in his 5th year. It is a contrast, but one which can easily be overstated, from Lito Sheppard say who has grown up in one system his whole career.

Change of scenery/scheme works sometimes. Deltha O'Neal was considered a bust and malcontent who was being converted to WR in Denver. In Cinncy he is a pro-bowler.