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View Full Version : Another way to look at DeMeco Ryans


Texans_Chick
05-26-2006, 03:17 PM
OK, we know he is smart, the generalized scouting report is that you wish he were a better athlete:

See for example: DeMeco Ryans Scouting Report (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/olb/demecoryans.html)

Weaknesses:
Does not have great speed...Possesses only average size...Is not a great natural athlete...Could stand to bulk up and add some weight...Must hit the weight room and get stronger...Has some trouble shedding bigger blockers...Does fine at the college level but could struggle when asked to drop into coverage as a pro.

Notes:
Tremendous college player who was the heart and soul of his squad and the type of guy every good team needs...Is not the biggest or fastest prospect out there but he is more than able to make up for his lack of ideal physical gifts with top intangibles...Should be able to come in and make an impact early on in his career.

OK, I haven't seen him play but the way this is written up is that he is just a smart guy who can get into the right places but you worry some that he isn't enough of an athlete for the NFL. A shorthand.

Well then, I was goofing around and reread something I read a while back. Before the draft so I wasn't paying particulate attention to Ryans.

It was the Pat Kirwin article (http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9326200)that we talked about a while back about how he grades players in order to get a sense of the sort of athlete they are. Obviously, it has its limitations, but it just a generalized sense of things. And lookie at this:

If you are the kind of NFL fan who really wants to dig down into all the numbers being broadcast to us about the draft class -- the measurables if you will -- then you may find my take on some of these numbers interesting. Teams are still gathering 'measurable' numbers at Pro Day workouts, so this study is incomplete. But I thought it would be a good time to explain how I look at some of the test scores, and more importantly, how I combine certain test scores to get a better feel for an athlete.
.....

The 40-yard dash seems to steal the show as the marquee measurable and it is the most advertised score to interpret. It has its place in the final grade for an NFL prospect, but I prefer to look at a combination of three measurables to get a sense of a prospect's ability to win in the 'combat' of football. I take the vertical-jump score and add it to the standing broad-jump score, which is added to the number of repetitions on the bench-press test. These three scores are combined to give me a benchmark score, which gives me a good feel for a player's ability to win the mini battle he will engage in while trying to finish a play.

I have been adding these three scores for a long time now and I am always looking for athletes who can score a 70 or better. Some positions naturally score higher than others and they need to by the nature of what is required for these positions on the field. Defensive ends and linebackers will generally score higher than wide receivers or cornerbacks. And since these positions are played in space where collisions are not as frequent, it is not as important to score a 70, but nonetheless, I am intrigued by perimeter players who score well on this combination score.

This year, we have a number of players who crossed the 70 mark and we have the rare few that have crossed the 80 mark. Believe me, not many NFL draft-eligible players ever get an 80-plus score. Here's a look at the top guys in this year's draft that have the combination of strength, power, explosiveness and agility to excel. Mario Williams, the top defensive end in the draft class, is off the charts when it comes to this combo score and has one of the highest scores I have ever seen.

NAME POS. VERTICAL BROAD BENCH TOTAL
Mario Williams DE 40.5 10.0 35 85.5
Brodrick Bunkley DT 32.5 9.05 44 85.5
Vernon Davis TE 42.0 10.08 33 85.08
Jon Alston OLB 40.0 11.0 30 81.0
Ray Edwards DE 39.0 9.06 30 78.06
Haloti Ngata DT 31.5 9.02 37 77.52
Ernie Sims LB 41.0 10.05 25 76.05
Dusty Dvoracek DT 34.0 9.06 31 74.06
A.J. Hawk OLB 40.0 9.07 24 73.07
Kamerion Wimbley DE 38.5 10.09 24 72.59
Manny Lawson DE 39.5 10.04 23 72.54
Demeco Ryans OLB 39.0 10.09 23 72.09
Rodrique Wright DT 32.0 9.02 31 72.02
Michael Huff FS/CB 40.5 10.05 21 71.55
Antonio Cromartie CB 42 11.0 18 71.00
DeAngelo Williams RB 35.5 10.01 25 70.51


Just something interesting I wanted to share.

Vinny
05-26-2006, 03:24 PM
The knock on Demeco as a poor or marginal athlete is just dumb. If people actually watch his games there is zero way to come to this conclusion. I find that a ton of people on mb's and even in the media just glom onto someone else's opinion to form theirs in many cases.

Meloy
05-26-2006, 03:24 PM
Vertical jump= blocking passes or blocking QB view down field, reps= strength; but broad jump? Does that = taking a running start and then jumping at where you think QB will be? I am sure I am over looking something?

Runner
05-26-2006, 03:26 PM
Vertical jump= blocking passes or blocking QB view down field, reps= strength; but broad jump? Does that = taking a running start and then jumping at where you think QB will be? I am sure I am over looking something?

I think it is supposed to measure "explosiveness".

BradK10
05-26-2006, 03:31 PM
I think it is supposed to measure "explosiveness".

bingo

jerek
05-26-2006, 03:32 PM
I think it is supposed to measure "explosiveness".

That and just another general measure of physical ability, w/o a necessary exact correlation to a particular NFL technique. Kind of like the Wonderlic ... just a broad demonstration of intellectual ability, and one of many tests they do to test capacity that don't necessarily translate directly to the football field but are useful indicators nonetheless.

Porky
05-26-2006, 03:32 PM
The knock on Demeco as a poor or marginal athlete is just dumb. If people actually watch his games there is zero way to come to this conclusion. I find that a ton of people on mb's and even in the media just glom onto someone else's opinion to form theirs in many cases.

I don't remember reading that he was a poor athlete, but I have read that he is not a great athelete, or is merely average to good. If he was a great athlete, he might have been a top 10 pick. I know you are high on him, and you have seen him much more than me. I hope you are right, because we got a steal if so. To me, instincts are more important in a LB than raw athletism.

Another interesting point is Mario is off the charts as a DE. I don't doubt his physical prowess, but we have to see if it translates to the field.

beerlover
05-26-2006, 03:35 PM
If I don't get a chance to watch a prospect in actual game situations then I may have to use combine numbers/pro-workout & scouting services to make an intelligent (hopefully) decision. DeMeco I did get the chance to see & he was mostly a blure, I mean he was all over the field.

Texans fans are gonna love this guy, my hope is that he can eventually run the defense in similar fashion as another 2nd rd. pick did last year, taking the Seahawks to the Super Bowl, Lofa Tatupu (#45).

Vinny
05-26-2006, 03:35 PM
I don't remember reading that he was a poor athlete, but I have read that he is not a great athelete, or is merely average to good. If he was a great athlete, he might have been a top 10 pick.
3-4 will or sam linebackers are rarely top 10 picks. Most top ten linebackers are edge rush types...but yeah sure there are exceptions. I probably shouldn't have used the word 'poor'.

Texans_Chick
05-26-2006, 03:36 PM
I find that a ton of people on mb's and even in the media just glom onto someone else's opinion to form theirs in many cases.

Exactly.

This kills me. It is a form of group think.

I am oft suspicious of the shorthand that gets spun on folks.

Malloy
05-26-2006, 03:38 PM
Exactly.

This kills me. It is a form of group think.

I am oft suspicious of the shorthand that gets spun on folks.

Group thing, and the fact that alot of consumers (of news in this case) are not very critical of the stuff the digest. Sad but true. At least you are the embodyment of the good consumer, being sceptical, critical, and finding stuff like this from the past.

Nice dig! :)

Runner
05-26-2006, 03:40 PM
Exactly.

This kills me. It is a form of group think.

I am oft suspicious of the shorthand that gets spun on folks.

Especially when that opinion is based on nothing to start with.

Random poster, from 75 yards away:
"I read player X's body language, and he was hanging his head. He's given up......."

Maybe somebody puked on the field and he didn't want to step in it. Maybe he got "racked". Maybe a lot of things, but the original "observation" frequently grows legs and is impossible to kill with facts.

Meloy
05-26-2006, 03:42 PM
I don't remember reading that he was a poor athlete, but I have read that he is not a great athelete, or is merely average to good. If he was a great athlete, he might have been a top 10 pick. I know you are high on him, and you have seen him much more than me. I hope you are right, because we got a steal if so. To me, instincts are more important in a LB than raw athletism.

Another interesting point is Mario is off the charts as a DE. I don't doubt his physical prowess, but we have to see if it translates to the field.
Others seem high on this linebacker also. I was disappointed when his name was called as I wanted an OT. When we got the two in 3rd and I started researching Demeco, I got impressed quickly. Man, if our first four guys work out and Moulds does what he is supposed to, Carr has even an average seaon for a QB, we may be in for a fun ride....

Meloy
05-26-2006, 03:48 PM
Exactly.

This kills me. It is a form of group think.

I am oft suspicious of the shorthand that gets spun on folks.

I would much rather hear someone's "stupid"opinion that he/she came up with than a "smart" opinion that is just a "me too on the band wagon."

aj.
05-26-2006, 03:50 PM
Random poster, from 75 yards away:
"I read player X's body language, and he was hanging his head. He's given up......."


Is that a reference to what I wrote about Wand in training camp last year?(you basically quoted what I said about him in an article last Aug). That certainly turned out to be true ... although I was about 20-30 yards away when I noticed the beginning of his Dr. Pendry induced psychological free fall in camp.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 03:53 PM
Is that a reference to what I wrote about Wand in training camp last year?(you basically quoted what I said about him in an article last Aug). That certainly turned out to be true ... although I was about 20-30 yards away when I noticed the beginning of his Dr. Pendry induced psychological free fall in camp.

I think your valued opinion, experience, access and post count dictate that it was not meant towards you. But I have been wrong before and will be wrong again.

El Tejano
05-26-2006, 04:04 PM
Vinny, do you feel that Demeco Ryans was the best player we chose in this draft?

aj.
05-26-2006, 04:04 PM
Post count - shmost count. Who cares about that meaningless number... kind of like the rep thing.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 04:08 PM
Post count - shmost count. Who cares about that meaningless number... kind of like the rep thing.

But it does suggest that you are not a random poster for our investigation. :spy:

aj.
05-26-2006, 04:17 PM
tru

MightyTExan
05-26-2006, 04:43 PM
Mario Williams=off the chart :mario:

nunusguy
05-26-2006, 05:22 PM
Vertical and broad jump measurements are useful in measuring a players athleticism, and Demeco's performances are very impressive, I was pleasantly surprised. But I'm not sure if I see the relavance of weight lifting performance or any strength measurement for rating athleticism. There's just too many examples of weight lifters and other really strong guys who totally lack
any coardination.
The short shuttle and three-cone are also effective in determining a players basic athltic abilitity.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 05:23 PM
:mario: Mario Williams=off the chart :mario::mario:

Runner
05-26-2006, 05:56 PM
Is that a reference to what I wrote about Wand in training camp last year?(you basically quoted what I said about him in an article last Aug). That certainly turned out to be true ... although I was about 20-30 yards away when I noticed the beginning of his Dr. Pendry induced psychological free fall in camp.

I don't remember specifics - I've seen it several times about different players (and coaches) though, and not just the "head down" and "given up" combination. If it was in one of your articles I don't remember that, but everything runs together by now. Probably coincidence.

Remember how so many people "knew" what Pendry and Carr were arguing about after that last second dropped pass by Bradford? That is another example.

I have another really funny example, but there is no way the original poster would have forgotten it by now, so I'll pass.

And as one last edit - you have enough insight and contact with the team where I'd consider some subtle signs that you pick up on. I might not believe them, but I'd consider them.

Runner
05-26-2006, 06:07 PM
But it does suggest that you are not a random poster for our investigation. :spy:

If I had known there was an investigation, I wouldn't have answered so quickly. We all need something to do around here waiting for camp.

Texan in Japan
05-26-2006, 08:58 PM
IMHO measurables get an inproportionate level of weight when players are evaluated.

Take Zach Thomas for example, he was not the prototype MLB, but his heart, instincts, desire and playing in the right system have made him a successful pro.

From what I've read, Ryans has the "it" factor. The intelligence, instincts, desire and heart, that along w/ talent and decent measurables should make him a solid pro. What's needed now is the coaching and personnel evaluation to help him adjust to our system and the pro game.

I'm excited to see #59 do great things for our defense. In 2-3 years, he should be one of the defensive leaders, if not "the leader." I'm hoping he becomes our MLB, because I think he has the skills and enough size to do well.

bayoudreamn
05-26-2006, 09:13 PM
One thing we'll know after this season is what all the questions being asked on the board today really meant. If Kubes is nothing else he is interesting. I never really felt like there was anything more than the obvious in anything Capers said, but Kubes creates interest. I also seem to notice that he allows more press from his assistants to make it out of camp. This is going to be fun.

BradK10
05-26-2006, 09:26 PM
IMHO measurables get an inproportionate level of weight when players are evaluated.

Take Zach Thomas for example, he was not the prototype MLB, but his heart, instincts, desire and playing in the right system have made him a successful pro.

From what I've read, Ryans has the "it" factor. The intelligence, instincts, desire and heart, that along w/ talent and decent measurables should make him a solid pro. What's needed now is the coaching and personnel evaluation to help him adjust to our system and the pro game.

I'm excited to see #59 do great things for our defense. In 2-3 years, he should be one of the defensive leaders, if not "the leader." I'm hoping he becomes are MLB, because I think he has the skills and enough size to do well.

well said

CMoak1982
05-26-2006, 09:49 PM
Combine numbers for Demeco
4.65 40
2.74 20
1.64 10
23 reps
39" vert
4.18 20 yrd shuttle
7.19 3 cone drill

If you go by these numbers he stacks up with the top linebackers athletically in the draft. He may not have the elite top end speed but still very fast, incredible explosiveness comparable to Hawk Greenway Howard all the top athletes and even more so than Carpenter. 4.65 40 is towards the top as well, when you figure at the combine Hawk ran a 4.59 and Greenway was slower. They ran better proday numbers but this dude is a good overall athlete with good explosiveness, combine that with his smarts and instincts, and the fact that he lays hat, he will be a stud. Just to argue a little bit about the numbers. Had better numbers than Merriman did coming out. If you remember right at one point Ryans was a top 15 selection, they started to doubt his athletic ability and he proved them wrong at the combine.

bayoudreamn
05-26-2006, 09:57 PM
Combine numbers for Demeco
4.65 40
2.74 20
1.64 10
23 reps
39" vert
4.18 20 yrd shuttle
7.19 3 cone drill

If you go by these numbers he stacks up with the top linebackers athletically in the draft. He may not have the elite top end speed but still very fast, incredible explosiveness comparable to Hawk Greenway Howard all the top athletes and even more so than Carpenter. 4.65 40 is towards the top as well, when you figure at the combine Hawk ran a 4.59 and Greenway was slower. They ran better proday numbers but this dude is a good overall athlete with good explosiveness, combine that with his smarts and instincts, and the fact that he lays hat, he will be a stud. Just to argue a little bit about the numbers. Had better numbers than Merriman did coming out. If you remember right at one point Ryans was a top 15 selection, they started to doubt his athletic ability and he proved them wrong at the combine.

Bottom line: He looks like a steal!

CMoak1982
05-26-2006, 09:59 PM
I definitely agree!

kingh99
05-27-2006, 02:29 AM
Texans fans are gonna love this guy, my hope is that he can eventually run the defense in similar fashion as another 2nd rd. pick did last year, taking the Seahawks to the Super Bowl, Lofa Tatupu (#45).

Does someone have the Pro day combine scores comparing Tatupu and Ryans like above? I know it's different draft years but that would be cool to compare. That Tatupu guy aint bad.

Texian
05-27-2006, 12:12 PM
Note: the Broad jump is a standing jump vs a running jump. measures explosiveness and leg strength.

In my 10+ years as a semi serious draftnik I have noticed that the best indicator of athletic ability is the vertical jump. When you see a athlete exceeding 36" you can be fairly sure your looking at very good athletic ability. When they measure 40" odds are they will be an elite athlete if they can operate a cell phone. Top end vertical jumpers usually have the speed because of the leg strength. Now if they can have the satisfactory strength of the average player (lifting) you need to pay attention because they can always get stronger.

It is very important to make sure they can operate a touch tone or cell phone or you could end up with Aundray Bruce.

stevo3883
05-27-2006, 12:33 PM
Note: the Broad jump is a standing jump vs a running jump. measures explosiveness and leg strength.

In my 10+ years as a semi serious draftnik I have noticed that the best indicator of athletic ability is the vertical jump. When you see a athlete exceeding 36" you can be fairly sure your looking at very good athletic ability. When they measure 40" odds are they will be an elite athlete if they can operate a cell phone. Top end vertical jumpers usually have the speed because of the leg strength. Now if they can have the satisfactory strength of the average player (lifting) you need to pay attention because they can always get stronger.

It is very important to make sure they can operate a touch tone or cell phone or you could end up with Aundray Bruce.


problem is its easy to cheat on the vert jump.

case and point- matt leinart's 39inch vertica

Vinny
05-27-2006, 12:38 PM
problem is its easy to cheat on the vert jump.

case and point- matt leinart's 39inch verticacan you explain how to cheat on this jump?

stevo3883
05-27-2006, 12:41 PM
can you explain how to cheat on this jump?


you get trained on how to flex your shoulders when they measure your reach so that your muscles contract and your reach is a few inches shorter than it is naturally.

so when you jump you reach out fully and can add up to like 5-6 inches on your vertical.

Vinny
05-27-2006, 12:43 PM
So I guess the people who give the test have no clue to this practice even though you know this right?

Texian
05-27-2006, 12:59 PM
I don't know about cheating to the tune of 5-6". Sorry I am just not buying that. However when testing there cell phone operation ability you need to disable the speed dial option. LOL :rofl:

whiskeyrbl
05-27-2006, 01:16 PM
Well here is Tatupus' pro day results
LB Lofa Tatupu - Measured 6-0, 240 pounds; ran 4.70 and 4.73 40s; 4.27 short shuttle; 7.68 three-cone drill; many scouts said he looked too big at 240 pounds and should drop back to his normal playing weight of 225 pounds, per published reports.

www.kffl.com

Combine numbers for Demeco
4.65 40
2.74 20
1.64 10
23 reps
39" vert
4.18 20 yrd shuttle
7.19 3 cone drill

wags
05-27-2006, 01:17 PM
So I guess the people who give the test have no clue to this practice even though you know this right?

Hey, people didn't know about the whizzinator?

Carr Bombed
05-27-2006, 02:00 PM
Hey, people didn't know about the whizzinator?

I knew about the whizzinator (not that I ever used it) and just about every young person who went to high school, had a friend on probation or one that took drug tests regularly.

stevo3883
05-27-2006, 06:09 PM
So I guess the people who give the test have no clue to this practice even though you know this right?

oh no, they actually train on it. my friend RJ was getting recruited big time d1 (he wound up at lsu) and he told me all about it. you basically contract every muscle in your arm and shoulder and act like you can barely bend at all.

if you dont want to believe me, thats fine. but i have no reason to lie.

BradK10
05-27-2006, 06:15 PM
oh no, they actually train on it. my friend RJ was getting recruited big time d1 (he wound up at lsu) and he told me all about it. you basically contract every muscle in your arm and shoulder and act like you can barely bend at all.

if you dont want to believe me, thats fine. but i have no reason to lie.

then use the broad jump, can't cheat that