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Marcus
05-26-2006, 06:15 AM
Johnson tackles tough times (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/3898818.html)

When I looked at the picture of him of him in that link, that said all I needed to know about why he's at the bottom of the depth chart. He's got maturity issues. But I guess the positive thing, is that his coaches are recognizing that, and aren't sweeping it under the rug.

It will be real interesting though. Two of those DTs won't make the team. Wonder which two it will be?:hmmm:

Texan in Japan
05-26-2006, 06:44 AM
This is probably the best thing that can happen to Travis...either he steps up and competes or he heads to the bench or worse waiver wire. I hope he gets it, I'd hate to think we wasted that pick!

Runner
05-26-2006, 07:47 AM
This pretty much confirms the bad feeling I've been having about him and his performance so far this year.

beerlover
05-26-2006, 08:30 AM
at least that 3rd. rd. pick aquired from New Orleans turned into Eric Winston :rolleyes: otherwise last years lack of performance and now this I would slash the caps off my beer bottles. :brickwall

TEXANRED
05-26-2006, 08:37 AM
]']are you f'n kidding!!!?? Look at that photo man.... I mean WT* TJ!!!! :hunter:
Warren Sapp was a fat piece of poo. Tackles are tackles.

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 08:41 AM
I don't know.. looks like a young Warren Sapp to me.

http://images.chron.com/photos/2006/05/25/2100870/311xInlineGallery.jpg http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/sapp_20021211.jpg

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall03/Dawson/sapp2.jpg
http://www.sportsposterwarehouse.com/warehouse/sapp00cos-1.jpg

Don't forget...... he is effectively a rookie this year.

Marcus
05-26-2006, 08:45 AM
I think Megan Manfull should have not danced around the subject and called Johnson a grotesquely out-of-shape immature unmotivated slacker, living high on the hog on his 1st round draft pick money. Because of all the turmoil and turnover this offseason, there was apparently nobody around to hold his hand, and say that there is actually such a thing as an off-season conditioning program.

I'm absolutely that last person in the world that would prematurely label a 1st round pick a bust . . . but he's pissing me off.

Marcus
05-26-2006, 08:47 AM
I don't know.. looks like a young Warren Sapp to me.
Warren Sapp has been there and done that. I wouldn't go there.

texan279
05-26-2006, 08:49 AM
Warren Sapp has been there and done that. I wouldn't go there.

Yeah and I doubt Sapp ever practiced behind someone from the practice squad in his career. I just hope TJ can get his act together.

nunusguy
05-26-2006, 08:54 AM
I hope this is just a "period of adjustment" thing TJ is going thru, because after the huge disappointment of giving up 2 other first day picks for P-Burnt last year and the way he performed, if TJ doesn't work out it would make the 2005 Draft nearly a complete bust, with the exception of KR Mathis.
Its especially bad when you consider the likes of OT Alex Barron and WR Mark Clayton, 2 guys who had really good rookies years in 2005 and were arguably at bigger need positions than DT, were both left on the Board last year after we took Johnson.

beerlover
05-26-2006, 09:04 AM
I hope this is just a "period of adjustment" thing TJ is going thru, because after the huge disappointment of giving up 2 other first day picks for P-Burnt last year and the way he performed, if TJ doesn't work out it would make the 2005 Draft nearly a complete bust, with the exception of KR Mathis.
Its especially bad when you consider the likes of OT Alex Barron and WR Mark Clayton, 2 guys who had really good rookies years in 2005 and were arguably at bigger need positions than DT, were both left on the Board last year after we took Johnson.

throw gasoline on the fire & beat a dead :deadhorse

16 Houston Travis Johnson DE Florida State
17 Cincinnati David Pollack OLB Georgia
18 Minnesota Erasmus James DE Wisconsin
19 St. Louis Alex Barron T Florida State
20 Dallas Marcus Spears DE Louisiana State
21 Jacksonville Matt Jones WR Arkansas
22 Baltimore Mark Clayton WR Oklahoma
23 Oakland Fabian Washington CB Nebraska
24 Green Bay Aaron Rodgers QB California
25 Washington Jason Campbell QB Auburn
26 Seattle Chris Spencer C Mississippi
27 Atlanta Roddy White WR Ala.-Birmingham
28 San Diego Luis Castillo DE Northwestern
29 Indianapolis Marlin Jackson CB Michigan
30 Pittsburgh Heath Miller TE Virginia
31 Philadelphia Mike Patterson DT Southern California
32 New England Logan Mankins G Fresno State

Texans_Chick
05-26-2006, 09:14 AM
I think Megan Manfull should have not danced around the subject and called Johnson a grotesquely out-of-shape immature unmotivated slacker, living high on the hog on his 1st round draft pick money. Because of all the turmoil and turnover this offseason, there was apparently nobody around to hold his hand, and say that there is actually such a thing as an off-season conditioning program.

I'm absolutely that last person in the world that would prematurely label a 1st round pick a bust . . . but he's pissing me off.

Megan was reporting not opining--an article not a opinion column. (Wonder if Megan reads over here--there were a number of us wondering about TJ).

Actions speak louder than words. They are making sure everyone on the team knows that it doesn't matter where you were drafted, if you are working hard, you will play, and if you aren't you won't.

It's May. I wouldn't get too freaked out about this. They are getting his attention. Personally, I am rooting for him--he is a likable personable guy. (We should all be so lucky not to have our immaturities played out in the newspaper).

Karmelowicz insists Johnson has all the physical qualities and athletic ability he needs to become an impact player in the NFL. Johnson's mental approach to the game may be all that's standing in the way of his making the necessary changes in technique.......

With Payne 31 years old and Robaire Smith turning 29 this season, Johnson is slated to be an integral part of the team's future.

"This is a big year for him," Texans coach Gary Kubiak said. "It's year two. Most of the players in this league make their biggest jump from year one to year two if they are going to be a great player and play a long time. So it's time for Travis to do that."


Everybody on the team has new expectations for them. And they are hearing them.

Runner
05-26-2006, 09:24 AM
throw gasoline on the fire & beat a dead :deadhorse

16 Houston Travis Johnson DE Florida State
17 Cincinnati David Pollack OLB Georgia
18 Minnesota Erasmus James DE Wisconsin
19 St. Louis Alex Barron T Florida State
20 Dallas Marcus Spears DE Louisiana State
21 Jacksonville Matt Jones WR Arkansas
22 Baltimore Mark Clayton WR Oklahoma
23 Oakland Fabian Washington CB Nebraska
24 Green Bay Aaron Rodgers QB California
25 Washington Jason Campbell QB Auburn
26 Seattle Chris Spencer C Mississippi
27 Atlanta Roddy White WR Ala.-Birmingham
28 San Diego Luis Castillo DE Northwestern
29 Indianapolis Marlin Jackson CB Michigan
30 Pittsburgh Heath Miller TE Virginia
31 Philadelphia Mike Patterson DT Southern California
32 New England Logan Mankins G Fresno State

I haven't followed all of these players so I'm not going to rate them, but going by your bolding/not bolding there was only about a 56% hit ratio (not counting TJ). I understand that this is an evaluation after just one year and I expect some of the misses to end up being good players. Interesting none-the-less.

El Tejano
05-26-2006, 09:30 AM
I am glad to hear that these coaches aren't BSing. They are letting people know when they aren't getting what they expect of them.

Marcus
05-26-2006, 09:33 AM
Megan was reporting not opining--an article not a opinion column.
I realize that. I guess I should have used a :rolleyes:, but facetious would be better suited.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 09:38 AM
"This is a big year for him," Texans coach Gary Kubiak said. "It's year two. Most of the players in this league make their biggest jump from year one to year two if they are going to be a great player and play a long time. So it's time for Travis to do that."

Very odd statement given the lack of production for a number of first round picks on this team. Just hope TJ stays with the program, got to have depth and he will be a player eventually.

Exascor
05-26-2006, 09:41 AM
I really felt that the 2005 draft class was like 2002. Fairly weak with a few scattered gems that we won't find out about for a few years. I'm not shy about who I wanted and will stick to it. I wanted DJ and would still take him today over TJ + the 3rd round pick. The 3rd round pick was for Spencer (imo) not Winston. They took Winston with the Saints pick to justify the tradedown for TJ (imo). There is no other reason to take Spencer before Winston other than that (imo).

I still hope TJ proves to be worth his first round status but work ethics aren't something that are easily taught. You either have them or you don't most of the time.

Hulk75
05-26-2006, 09:42 AM
"A lot of times guys go, 'Hey, come on; it's May. We have no pads,' " Karmelowicz said. "They give you a list of reasons why they shouldn't do anything hard. But you must give yourself permission to do it. That's what's got to click on with him right now. That's what he's fighting. As soon as he allows himself to do it, he'll pick it up in a New York minute."



I think the WORST thing that could have happened to him was having Gary Walker being his mentor his first year in the league.........Lord I hope none of Garys attitude rubbed off on Travis. Mentaly speaking and how Gary approached practice, sometimes I think Gary just thought he could show up and everything would take of its self.:spy:

I really think Travis will do fine being in the 4-3 again.
Sound like someone to you............G-FUNK

Honoring Earl 34
05-26-2006, 09:47 AM
:fridge: The good news is that TJ has first round talent . Lombardi said winning is not a sometimes thing its an all the time thing ... I think this also applies to being a premier player . This is what the DL coach meens by TJ making up his mind and doing whats needed to fullfill his potential .

Translation , get off your fat ass and be in shape year around . If you are not bigger , stronger and faster than you were when you arrived here your losing ground . A quality DL over a ten year period can make 20 million dollars and your throwing it away . God only makes so many 300 lb men who are quick and agile enough to be NFL linemen and you still think NC State is on your schedule .

nunusguy
05-26-2006, 09:49 AM
Actions speak louder than words. They are making sure everyone on the team knows that it doesn't matter where you were drafted, if you are working hard, you will play, and if you aren't you won't.

Make no mistake about it, IMO Kubiak and his people are not immune from playing politics and having favorites players just like Capers and his people did and every other coaching regime does. They have a vested interst in their
Draft picks and FA players succeeding. It simply makes them look smarter if
for example D. Ryans and Eric Winston are successes vs TJ and Babin ending up as NFL failures.
Having said that, I give them much credit for making a real effort to resurrect the career of Seth Wand. He is not their boy, and was inherited from the previous regime. They obviously seem to think he could help them, and its all about winning ultimately and they will keep a player if he's a contributor.
But I'm confidant that they will have less patience, cut a player quicker if he was not acquired by them as compared to one of their own.

kingh99
05-26-2006, 09:54 AM
This is probably the best thing that can happen to Travis...either he steps up and competes or he heads to the bench or worse waiver wire. I hope he gets it, I'd hate to think we wasted that pick!

Add another high pick tossed to into Capers Casserly dogpile. These guys were TERRIBLE draft managers.

Runner
05-26-2006, 09:55 AM
The 3rd round pick was for Spencer (imo) not Winston. They took Winston with the Saints pick to justify the tradedown for TJ (imo). There is no other reason to take Spencer before Winston other than that (imo).


I know that it is debating almost nothing to compare who was picked first, Winston or Spencer and why....but

They may have picked the better player first. We've all seen the scouting reports that say Spencer is raw and needs a lot of seasoning to reach his potential. However, I've heard in practices that when Spencer gets it right he really pushes the defense back with his first punch and could be very good. I've heard that Winston also has a lot to learn about technique at the NFL level, and he has a long way to go to be ready to play. This is probably why he fell to the 3rd round.

So - each of the players need a lot of seasoning, as we should expect for 3rd round o-lineman. Spencer may have the higher upside if they both reach their potential.

Porky
05-26-2006, 09:59 AM
Anyone know when the baby is due?:hmmm:

WILLIEG
05-26-2006, 10:04 AM
I was just happy to hear that A. Malone was in front of T. Johnson. I really like this guy and think he can provide the push we need from our DT's.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 10:06 AM
Anyone know when the baby is due?:hmmm:

Probably the day Reggie Bush signs with the Texans.

Texans_Chick
05-26-2006, 10:07 AM
Make no mistake about it, IMO Kubiak and his people are not immune from playing politics and having favorites players just like Capers and his people did and every other coaching regime does. They have a vested interst in their
Draft picks and FA players succeeding. It simply makes them look smarter if
for example D. Ryans and Eric Winston are successes vs TJ and Babin ending up as NFL failures.Having said that, I give them much credit for making a real effort to resurrect the career of Seth Wand. He is not their boy, and was inherited from the previous regime. They obviously seem to think he could help them, and its all about winning ultimately and they will keep a player if he's a contributor.
But I'm confidant that they will have less patience, cut a player quicker if he was not acquired by them as compared to one of their own.


The thing that makes them look the smartest is getting the best guys on the field to win.

I'm not an Oklahoma fan by any stretch of the imagination, but the best thing that Bob Stoops did when he came to the program was to not make excuses for the talent he inherited, he practiced them up hard, made them his team and won immediately. (And the worst thing he did was continue to sport a visor. Visors on guys is kinda effete. Only Fred Couples can get away with it and remain just about the coolest guy on the planet).

I'm not expecting that sort of quick turnaround here, I am just saying that the thing that makes you look smart is winning with what you have. Your Wand example indicates that this is what they are trying to do.

If the older players fail it is likely because of their non-adaptability to a new scheme rather than politics.

jerek
05-26-2006, 10:27 AM
Silly that the Chronic has to report it before pretty much any one believes me when I've been saying the same damned thing for months now.

But noooo, TJ is this, TJ is that, TJ is great, TJ just needs time and a new coach ... BS. TJ needs a treadmill and a brain transplant.

Okay, done on my soap box now. Carry on.

nunusguy
05-26-2006, 10:31 AM
The thing that makes them look the smartest is getting the best guys on the field to win.

Which is basically what I said at one point in my remarks, just don't be a
"Utopian Dreamer" and think for a moment that Kubiak can't be prejudice
and his picks aren't "first among equals" in scenarios where competing players have approximate ratings.

Brandon420tx
05-26-2006, 10:38 AM
"This is a big year for him," Texans coach Gary Kubiak said. "It's year two. Most of the players in this league make their biggest jump from year one to year two if they are going to be a great player and play a long time. So it's time for Travis to do that."

Very odd statement given the lack of production for a number of first round picks on this team. Just hope TJ stays with the program, got to have depth and he will be a player eventually.

So, AJ, and Dunta have a lack of production for us? *Given last year was pretty bad and AJ got injured*, I know how you feel about Carr, but many people don't see him as a wasted 1st round pick.:twocents: oh and please, I have no intention of this post creating a Carr questioning thread, I was just stating that we normally get value out of our first round picks, of course usually our first rounders start for us at the beginning of the year... TJ didn't.

From the link
Johnson is the Texans' only first-round pick who didn't start every game as a rookie.

And on the subject of TJ's baby, I think it was born yesterday... can't remember where I heard it though..... poo

Brandon420tx
05-26-2006, 10:41 AM
Silly that the Chronic has to report it before pretty much any one believes me when I've been saying the same damned thing for months now.

But noooo, TJ is this, TJ is that, TJ is great, TJ just needs time and a new coach ... BS. TJ needs a treadmill and a brain transplant.

Okay, done on my soap box now. Carry on.
So he needs to hang from a mill (Treadmill), :chicken: -dance, and lay off the barbaque wings, all the while working his way back into the rotation.

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 10:50 AM
... BS. TJ needs a treadmill and a brain transplant.

Okay, done on my soap box now. Carry on.

It's weird how I didn't get that out of this article at all......... I know that appears to be the general consensus of folks on this thread.....


But I didn't get that from the article.

Texans_Chick
05-26-2006, 10:54 AM
Which is basically what I said at one point in my remarks,

Didn't see it. Reread it. Still didn't see it.

just don't be a
"Utopian Dreamer" and think for a moment

Yes, I am acquainted with reality. I've been known to think. Thinking is not incompatible with also dreaming. :)

that Kubiak can't be prejudice
and his picks aren't "first among equals" in scenarios where competing players have approximate ratings.

It is possible that he is that way. He is a human making judgments based on what he sees and what his assistants see. It is also possible he is working from his rational self-interest and is trying to put the best players on the field no matter who drafted them so that we can win some games.

If TJ can play, Kubiak is gonna want him to succeed.

It is too early to tell how political things will be for Kubiak versus other coaches in the league. There is no track record to determine that. From what I've seen so far, he is just putting the people on the field and letting them compete. Under your political theory, Wand woulda been thrown under the bus before the OTAs.



Great. We are all back to parsing statements by players and coaches because there are no games going on. Those statements get blowned up because it is in the Chronic.

Usually I read articles like this and go, hmmm interesting, file that away, let see what comes of this, instead of what a lot of folks in this thread are doing--pronouncing busts, predicting pregnancies or saying that Capers guys are gonna get whacked or whatever.

TJ done got a fire lit up under him. Let's wait and see what happens.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 11:01 AM
So, AJ, and Dunta have a lack of production for us? *Given last year was pretty bad and AJ got injured*, I know how you feel about Carr, but many people don't see him as a wasted 1st round pick.:twocents: oh and please, I have no intention of this post creating a Carr questioning thread, I was just stating that we normally get value out of our first round picks, of course usually our first rounders start for us at the beginning of the year... TJ didn't.

And on the subject of TJ's baby, I think it was born yesterday... can't remember where I heard it though..... poo

Four drafts, five first round picks. Three of them, which constitute 60% of those picks, had less than spectacular first years.

Brandon420tx
05-26-2006, 11:03 AM
The three your counting are Babin, TJ, and Carr right?

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 11:05 AM
The three your counting are Babin, TJ, and Carr right?

That would be correct.

jerek
05-26-2006, 11:07 AM
It's weird how I didn't get that out of this article at all......... I know that appears to be the general consensus of folks on this thread.....


But I didn't get that from the article.

I don't think Manfull wrote the article as an overt criticism of TJ. That was me reading between the lines. That has been me pretty much since we drafted the dude. TJ always has been a lazy half-ass with an attitude problem, and he isn't showing any signs of change. Physically he has the tools to succeed, but until he commits to utilizing them, he will continue to be an also-ran who will barely crack the roster.

That would be correct.

Still not sure what to think of Babin. I think we reached when we drafted him (was a projected 2nd rounder at the time, if I'm not mistaken) but physically he is an exciting specimen. Same as for TJ, though ... mental problems are getting in the way of him ever making good on that potential. As far as Carr, well we can agree to disagree, but I respect your opinion as a football mind and I hope that this will be the year where he makes good on both yours and my expectations.

Brandon420tx
05-26-2006, 11:08 AM
I knew you would be, but thats where opinions start to get put in... I didn't count Carr, and I was impressed with Babins first year.... and at the end of last year ... but there was that 10 game waiting period for me..... anyways, yea, I only counted 2 for me, but once again that all comes down to opinions and differing viewpoints.

:fishing: <--- My official, lets make peace smiley lol.

dalemurphy
05-26-2006, 11:10 AM
The three your counting are Babin, TJ, and Carr right?


Not many players excel in a losing atmosphere, playing for coaches that don't teach well and don't scheme to your strengths and put you in a position to succeeed.

I think we'll get a better idea of the talents of these three this season. One of them may be a bust but I don't think all three of those guys will turn out to be.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 11:16 AM
Still not sure what to think of Babin. I think we reached when we drafted him (was a projected 2nd rounder at the time, if I'm not mistaken) but physically he is an exciting specimen. Same as for TJ, though ... mental problems are getting in the way of him ever making good on that potential. As far as Carr, well we can agree to disagree, but I respect your opinion as a football mind and I hope that this will be the year where he makes good on both yours and my expectations.

I was simply making a point based on 1st year results, this is not a potential discussion.

El Tejano
05-26-2006, 11:24 AM
I think this article is an indication of why Weaver is at the DT spot.

nunusguy
05-26-2006, 11:41 AM
Great. We are all back to parsing statements by players and coaches because there are no games going on. Those statements get blowned up because it is in the Chronic.

My reference to the importance of winning was exactly this, "its all about winning ultimately", so I don't know how I could have explicitly assigned a higher priority to what the W-L record looks like at seasons end ?
As far as parsing, second-guessing, speculating etc. until the Chronicle gets
somebody over there who can write a definitive story about the DL and other Texans topics, were gonna be left to do that in the offseason until we see for ourselves how the team is doing, preseason games being the earliest.
M.Manfull is a solid journalist, but she's still got some stuff to learn about her subject matter when it comes to NFL football. Todays article is really a clarification re the ommission of TJ in the earlier article this week about
Babin/the DL. I'm glad she followed up with it, because it was important to
all of us to get the lowdown on TJs present status, disappointing as it may have been.

Honoring Earl 34
05-26-2006, 11:48 AM
I don't think you give up on TJ but if this were a game of hangman ... it

would look like this b u _ _ .

GP
05-26-2006, 12:01 PM
Compare this guy against Mario Williams, or even Domanick Davis in terms of personality.

TJ, from the very first time I saw him on a TV camera (arriving into Houston, for example) just had a weird countenance about him.

I would call it "brooding," meaning that he looked to be a very solemn and almost depressed-looking man. I saw burts of emotion, such as when he got the call on draft day and the TV camera showed his reaction...but outside of that, it seems to me that he does not have the outgoing and bright-faced attitude of most players today.

Now he's spiraled into Anna Nicole Smith territory...and I just think he's got emotional/mental issues. Call it an inferiority complex, or even depression, but something is out of whack with TJ.

How do you let yourself go, like he did? How do you get drafted in the first round and allow this to happen? Maybe it was a guy just feeling lost in the midst of a sinking coaching staff...had to be tough for those guys, espcially the ones drafted right before the big implosion of the 2005 season.

I'm more worried about his state-of-mind right now more than I am worried about his performance. Guy's gotta' get his head right, and for a lot more than playing the game. Think Barrett Robbins.

real
05-26-2006, 12:06 PM
Compare this guy against Mario Williams, or even Domanick Davis in terms of personality.

TJ, from the very first time I saw him on a TV camera (arriving into Houston, for example) just had a weird countenance about him.

I would call it "brooding," meaning that he looked to be a very solemn and almost depressed-looking man. I saw burts of emotion, such as when he got the call on draft day and the TV camera showed his reaction...but outside of that, it seems to me that he does not have the outgoing and bright-faced attitude of most players today.

Now he's spiraled into Anna Nicole Smith territory...and I just think he's got emotional/mental issues. Call it an inferiority complex, or even depression, but something is out of whack with TJ.

How do you let yourself go, like he did? How do you get drafted in the first round and allow this to happen? Maybe it was a guy just feeling lost in the midst of a sinking coaching staff...had to be tough for those guys, espcially the ones drafted right before the big implosion of the 2005 season.

I'm more worried about his state-of-mind right now more than I am worried about his performance. Guy's gotta' get his head right, and for a lot more than playing the game. Think Barrett Robbins.

I think you hit it right on the nose...

Lucky
05-26-2006, 12:10 PM
From the Chronic article linked:
"A lot of times guys go, 'Hey, come on; it's May. We have no pads,' " Karmelowicz said.
Still, it is May. They aren't wearing pads. A Seth Wand will always look better when it isn't live. Conversely, some guys aren't going to look as good until the pads go on.

I'm not giving TJ a pass. He needs to lose about 20 pounds of goo if he wants to see the field. Just that we may give too much credence to these spring camps.

Brandon420tx
05-26-2006, 12:22 PM
From the link
This season, defensive coordinator Richard Smith is implementing a game plan similar to the one Johnson excelled in at Florida State. It centers on being aggressive and getting up the field.

Sorry I had to do this,:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

stevo3883
05-26-2006, 12:23 PM
Silly that the Chronic has to report it before pretty much any one believes me when I've been saying the same damned thing for months now.

But noooo, TJ is this, TJ is that, TJ is great, TJ just needs time and a new coach ... BS. TJ needs a treadmill and a brain transplant.

Okay, done on my soap box now. Carry on.

one of the very few things we have always agreed on.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-26-2006, 01:01 PM
It's weird how I didn't get that out of this article at all......... I know that appears to be the general consensus of folks on this thread.....


But I didn't get that from the article.

I think the bit about TJ needing "to give himself permission" to do the things they are asking him to do is their way of saying that so far he has been unwilling to accept any of their coaching advice. That to me is someone who is too dumb to see the writing on the wall. If I were TJ and noticed that I was doing my reps with someone from the practice squad, I'd be getting it in gear real fast.

aj.
05-26-2006, 01:08 PM
Motivational issues it seems... not what you want to see. They are obviously pushing buttons to see if any of them work.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 01:11 PM
Motivational issues it seems... not what you want to see. They are obviously pushing buttons to see if any of them work.

Maybe they should try smearing the QB with a pizza. Better yet maybe Mario could give a whiff of a subway sandwich before TJ gets in his stance.

nunusguy
05-26-2006, 01:20 PM
]']TJ is one fat slob! Idoit can't get in shape after the millions he is getting. Now he is practicing on the 3rd team behind some guy. Guy is busting all over the place. Literally.....
Jesus Trav, u are one big loser! Dont hate on this post cause it is true!

Dang Coach Kubes, you're a real hard ass. But you know what, I gotta agree with you.
Young man got all that money, doing what he'd do if he were flat broke, and
this is how he shows his gratitude to the organization that gave him this
great opportunity and all those greenbacks. Not to mention his total lack of interest in doing the right thing for his teammates.

Rightnow
05-26-2006, 01:29 PM
This article could be either the best thing to happen to him or the worst. Maybe a family member or friend will call and ask what is up and out of pride he will do what it takes, or maybe he will be discouraged and do nothing. I hope for the first.

"to give himself permission" Is interesting. The practices are voluntary and they aren't wearing pads because the NFL won't allow it. I can see some players taking it easy because they are afraid of being hurt. I think Kubiak's coaching staff wants to see what these guys are really made of. BTW he has to give himself persmission because of NFL rules, the coach can't make him "go hard" until training camp.

jerek
05-26-2006, 01:45 PM
From the Chronic article linked:

Still, it is May. They aren't wearing pads. A Seth Wand will always look better when it isn't live. Conversely, some guys aren't going to look as good until the pads go on.

I'm not giving TJ a pass. He needs to lose about 20 pounds of goo if he wants to see the field. Just that we may give too much credence to these spring camps.

I took that quote (and its context) to indicate that TJ wasn't providing complete effort, ostensibly because in his perception, "it's May" (only training camp). E.g. the Allen Iverson school of player development theory: "it's just practice, man." More a criticism of his lack of effort than any other point intended, IMO. I know that yes, "it's only spring camps," and that the so called workout-warriors that shine in practice will not necessarily shine in games this year. Still ... I have to put tremendous value in (and I hope you do too) the value of live training exercises as the indication of both effort and skill that will show forth when the real thing comes around.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 01:50 PM
I took that quote (and its context) to indicate that TJ wasn't providing complete effort, ostensibly because in his perception, "it's May" (only training camp). E.g. the Allen Iverson school of player development theory: "it's just practice, man." More a criticism of his lack of effort than any other point intended, IMO.

Easily my favorite interview in the last decade. Practice is so nice, he had to say it twice. Well maybe twice multiplied by 50.

Iverson: "If I can't practice, I can't practice. It is as simple as that. It ain't about that at all. It's easy to sum it up if you're just talking about practice. We're sitting here, and I'm supposed to be the franchise player, and we're talking about practice. I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about practice, not a game, not a game, not a game, but we're talking about practice. Not the game that I go out there and die for and play every game last it's my last but we're talking about practice man. How silly is that?

jerek
05-26-2006, 01:59 PM
Easily my favorite interview in the last decade. Practice is so nice, he had to say it twice. Well maybe twice multiplied by 50.

Iverson: "If I can't practice, I can't practice. It is as simple as that. It ain't about that at all. It's easy to sum it up if you're just talking about practice. We're sitting here, and I'm supposed to be the franchise player, and we're talking about practice. I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about practice, not a game, not a game, not a game, but we're talking about practice. Not the game that I go out there and die for and play every game last it's my last but we're talking about practice man. How silly is that?

I love it. Iverson had serious game in his time. Too bad he could never get past himself. To his credit, he struggled under bad coaching and GMs at times, but ultimately Allen Iverson was Allen Iverson's worst opponent. It has been proven time and time again that right practice habits are essential to development of virtually any skill we could ever hope to acquire or improve. Military, sport, industry ... book after book has been written on application of correct training principles. Too bad that some of our brightest athletes never "get it." Or in TJ's case, our "pretty good" athlete ... I have heard it straight from the mouths of the coaching staff and player development personnel. TJ is fundamentally unmotivated and until he finds the will within himself, he will never be more than an also-ran, for this or any other team.

Lucky
05-26-2006, 02:14 PM
.. I have to put tremendous value in (and I hope you do too) the value of live training exercises as the indication of both effort and skill that will show forth when the real thing comes around.
Well, maybe. Some players are going to look much better when they know there won't be full contact. When the play is live, some of their bad habits re-emerge. And some players get that extra kick of adrenaline when it's for real, and make plays you didn't see them make during run-throughs.

I'm not saying the Texans are wasting their time, not at all. Just that the "results" of these practices aren't as cut & dried as some make it out to be. Johnson deserves criticism for being out of shape (that's what I think the coach was saying with "fleshy part of the body"). But, I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he's a bust, either. It's May.

Grid
05-26-2006, 02:26 PM
hate to see him struggling.. I hope he pulls it out.

If he doesnt get back on track before the season starts..I hope we find a spot for him on the roster. I guarantee if we cut him he will be picked up within a day by someone else. Its too early to cut a 1st round draft pick.. at least for "being immature and overweight". THose are temporary conditions.

wrestler4life
05-26-2006, 02:33 PM
Hopefully he has just been too used to the way things were when he got to the team. Apparently he has not figured it out that things are not as they were. I sure hope that he is not going to be a smoked out bust, but he seems like he is heading in that direction.

jerek
05-26-2006, 02:37 PM
hate to see him struggling.. I hope he pulls it out.

If he doesnt get back on track before the season starts..I hope we find a spot for him on the roster. I guarantee if we cut him he will be picked up within a day by someone else. Its too early to cut a 1st round draft pick.. at least for "being immature and overweight". THose are temporary conditions.

Not to argue the fine print, but I doubt he is the league commodity you are making him out to be. Sure, we could find a sucker taker, somewhere out there ... just like Oakland found a sucker taker for P-Buc.

Not trying to make a really big deal out of this. I do not lay awake at night worrying about Travis Johnson being a Texan. I've met the guy on several occasions and he's never done me any wrong. I too sincerely hope that TJ finds his will to give this his all, and improves and lives up to the old regime's billing and draft position. I too have a ton of faith in our new coaching staff as teachers and motivators, and yes, the guy is young, let's not act as if NFL players are supposed to have everything figured out at the age of 23.

I am merely reporting what I have heard directly from the team, and what my own eyes easily verify ... the kid is not with it right now. Never was at Florida State either, where he cruised on athletic talent and occasional bouts of rage that are no longer going to cut it at this level. At some point a guy either grows up or he doesn't, and coming into his second year in the NFL, he still giving us no real sign of doing so. I too hope for the best, but I'm not holding my breath on him living up to it at this moment.

Double Barrel
05-26-2006, 02:38 PM
I don't get the whole mental slacking aspect for a PROFESSIONAL football player.

He had 9,640,000 REA$ON$ to get his act together last season.

This is just pathetic. He's got no excuses.

Grid
05-26-2006, 02:41 PM
Not to argue the fine print, but I doubt he is the league commodity you are making him out to be. Sure, we could find a sucker taker, somewhere out there ... just like Oakland found a sucker taker for P-Buc.

Not trying to make a really big deal out of this. I do not lay awake at night worrying about Travis Johnson being a Texan. I've met the guy on several occasions and he's never done me any wrong. I too sincerely hope that TJ finds his will to give this his all, and improves and lives up to the old regime's billing and draft position. I too have a ton of faith in our new coaching staff as teachers and motivators, and yes, the guy is young, let's not act as if NFL players are supposed to have everything figured out at the age of 23.

I am merely reporting what I have heard directly from the team, and what my own eyes easily verify ... the kid is not with it right now. Never was at Florida State either, where he cruised on athletic talent and occasional bouts of rage that are no longer going to cut it at this level. At some point a guy either grows up or he doesn't, and coming into his second year in the NFL, he still giving us no real sign of doing so. I too hope for the best, but I'm not holding my breath on him living up to it at this moment.


I said I hope we dont CUT him. If Pbuch had been cut, instead of traded, he would have been picked up by someone 2 seconds later.

jerek
05-26-2006, 02:41 PM
I don't get the whole mental slacking aspect for a PROFESSIONAL football player.

He had 9,640,000 REA$ON$ to get his act together last season.

This is just pathetic. He's got no excuses.

Unfortunately, it's hardly unique. Unfortunately, him eventually being unemployed for it won't be unique either.

nunusguy
05-26-2006, 02:43 PM
Just that the "results" of these practices aren't as cut & dried as some make it out to be. Johnson deserves criticism for being out of shape (that's what I think the coach was saying with "fleshy part of the body"). But, I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he's a bust, either. It's May.
The thing about these practices is that its a "first impressions" thing with the
new HC and his whole coaching staff, a chance to get acquainted with the new boss. Every player would be well advised to take full advantage of this opportunity, if not you might end up in the new boss's dog house, aka the
3rd string on the depth chart.

Texan in Japan
05-26-2006, 03:13 PM
]']are you f'n kidding!!!?? Look at that photo man.... I mean WT* TJ!!!! :hunter:

No, I'm not kidding. I've seen some very talented folks throw away opportunity because they didn't realize what the costs are of being great. Some actually "get it" before its too late, others don't. Hopefully, TJ sees in this brief exposure to talented vets, that he can't just go through the motions and get PT...he has to earn it.

Vinny
05-26-2006, 03:20 PM
http://images.chron.com/photos/2006/05/25/2100870/311xInlineGallery.jpg
Get into my belly!

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 03:25 PM
I love it. Iverson had serious game in his time. Too bad he could never get past himself. To his credit, he struggled under bad coaching and GMs at times, but ultimately Allen Iverson was Allen Iverson's worst opponent. It has been proven time and time again that right practice habits are essential to development of virtually any skill we could ever hope to acquire or improve. Military, sport, industry ... book after book has been written on application of correct training principles. Too bad that some of our brightest athletes never "get it." Or in TJ's case, our "pretty good" athlete ... I have heard it straight from the mouths of the coaching staff and player development personnel. TJ is fundamentally unmotivated and until he finds the will within himself, he will never be more than an also-ran, for this or any other team.

I don't know exactly how you look at the situation......... all the angles and everything. But where AI is concerned, I think you and a bunch of folks got this all wrong.. Allen Iverson didn't need to practice. He's got game, mad game. & he gives 150% every night.

The problem with that situation, is that his team needed to practice with him, if they were to ever win a Championship. There's no way Allen Iverson & the 76ers were going to go the distance..... It's got to be the 76ers.....

Allen Iverson didn't need the practice.

Vinny
05-26-2006, 03:27 PM
Allen Iverson didn't need the practice.
Obviously he did...since he has never won jack. A poor attitude rubs off on others.

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 03:34 PM
Obviously he did...since he has never won jack. A poor attitude rubs off on others.

didn't he win the scoring title??

It didn't matter who he was playing with, or who he was playing against, he was going to put up 30 points a night. He didn't have a problem finding his place in the offense. He didn't have a problem adding value on defense. He earned his spot as a starter night in, night out.

the problem, was the team wasn't getting involved....... as much as they should.....

I contribute that directly with him not practicing with the team, & that's why I say the team needed him to practice more than he did.

El Tejano
05-26-2006, 03:37 PM
He is the point guard and his team isn't involved? Wow!!! You don't need to say more than that.

jerek
05-26-2006, 03:39 PM
didn't he win the scoring title??

It didn't matter who he was playing with, or who he was playing against, he was going to put up 30 points a night. He didn't have a problem finding his place in the offense. He didn't have a problem adding value on defense. He earned his spot as a starter night in, night out.

the problem, was the team wasn't getting involved....... as much as they should.....

I contribute that directly with him not practicing with the team, & that's why I say the team needed him to practice more than he did.

Yes and no. Basketball is obviously a team sport and thus, as you correctly pointed out, in order to build the kind of team chemistry that is necessary to succeed under pressure in games, it is important that the team practices together and practices rightly in order to build those instincts and skills.

AI, in and of himself, was a great player and yes, he gave it his all in games. But ... Michael Jordan, the game's greatest player, was absolutely famous for the way he approached practice. Every minute of every practice was a war and he got in his teammates' asses if they didn't show up to put up just like he did. Was Michael Jordan just a ****? Did he have it wrong?

Jordan won more scoring titles than AI and six championships, last I knew. As the game's greatest and most prolific player, he personifies the absolute arsenal of literature and research that demonstrates that people will consistently perform to the level they consistently practice.

Travis Johnson possesses a fraction of the talent of an AI any way, so it's not like we're talking a Randy Moss here. Speaking of ... exhibit A in the importance of right mental attitude and practice habits. Practice is important not only because it gets you on the same page as your teammates, but if you are going about it the right way, it will truly prepare you to perform at your highest level, not only throughout the course of a "routine" game, but when the moment demands it. Check out Jordan's autobiography if you are interested ... I can't remember the title offhand, but I can try to find it when I get home and bring out some relevant quotes here.

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 03:47 PM
He is the point guard and his team isn't involved? Wow!!! You don't need to say more than that.


Are you sure?? I thought he was the 2 guard.........


Now..... does anyone think AI would have gotten any better by practicing?? would he have scored more?? He might have got a few more assists, but he wasn't a slouch in assists to begin with.

The rest of the team would have been better.... they would've been harder to beat...... I don't deny any of that.... They would have won at least one championship by now......

But Allen Iverson would not have played any better, or any harder than he already does......

heck, he might get hurt more, if he practiced more.........

Texans_Chick
05-26-2006, 03:52 PM
Compare this guy against Mario Williams, or even Domanick Davis in terms of personality.

TJ, from the very first time I saw him on a TV camera (arriving into Houston, for example) just had a weird countenance about him.

I would call it "brooding," meaning that he looked to be a very solemn and almost depressed-looking man. I saw burts of emotion, such as when he got the call on draft day and the TV camera showed his reaction...but outside of that, it seems to me that he does not have the outgoing and bright-faced attitude of most players today.

Now he's spiraled into Anna Nicole Smith territory...and I just think he's got emotional/mental issues. Call it an inferiority complex, or even depression, but something is out of whack with TJ.

How do you let yourself go, like he did? How do you get drafted in the first round and allow this to happen? Maybe it was a guy just feeling lost in the midst of a sinking coaching staff...had to be tough for those guys, espcially the ones drafted right before the big implosion of the 2005 season.

I'm more worried about his state-of-mind right now more than I am worried about his performance. Guy's gotta' get his head right, and for a lot more than playing the game. Think Barrett Robbins.


Come on now. This post is a bit much.

I would hate for someone to judge me based on short TV appearances and a media report here and there.

I don't have any idea of what sort of player TJ is going to be this year, and obviously they are lighting a fire under him, but geez, there is speculation and then there is taking a flying leap into silly.

I've told this story before on the MB but I will again because this thread has swung wildly out of control. Last year, I was gonna try to get a Battle Red ballcap signed by some players before a Texans event. It was for a big Texans fan who had cancer and was fixing to lose her hair and was really afraid.

The first player I ran into was Travis Johnson. He couldn't have been any more polite and kind and chatty and positive. A very big personality--one of the most "bright-faced" Texans players I've talked to.

He wrote a inspirational note on the hat for her. He made a point of taking me to where all the other players were hanging out, told them the situation and made a point to ask them to all sign the hat.

She wore that hat all throughout her chemotherapy and hung it above her hospital bed at night. It still means a ton to her. It symbolizes to keep fighting even when things are hard and painful. She jokes that 2006 is gonna be a better year for both her and the Texans.

He could have just signed tha hat and been on his way but he went the extra mile and I will always appreciate that.

I don't know what sort of season TJ is going to have or truly what sort of person he is from the short interaction I had with him, but what I do know is that it is unfair to peg him as sullen based on watching him on the TV.

I truly hope for the best for him--if he has the physical tools, he still has some time to get the rest of it together.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 03:52 PM
Two different sports altogether, but outside of the dead sport known as baseball, there is a certain flow that a unit can only achieve via time together. People are different and how they move is different, getting five guys to move in concert in a finite space and time while being defended is not as easy as some would like to portray.

Cuts, angles, rotations are all extremely important for any offense and in fact carry defensive implications on the transition from O to D.

Iverson is a warrior, but I would rather have him on the playground to keep the court than in the arena to have chance at winning the championship.

But heck man, we're talking about practice still.

Runner
05-26-2006, 03:53 PM
Are you sure?? I thought he was the 2 guard.........


Now..... does anyone think AI would have gotten any better by practicing?? would he have scored more?? He might have got a few more assists, but he wasn't a slouch in assists to begin with.

The rest of the team would have been better.... they would've been harder to beat...... I don't deny any of that.... They would have won at least one championship by now......

But Allen Iverson would not have played any better, or any harder than he already does......

heck, he might get hurt more, if he practiced more.........

This is the major problem with NBA. So many think that because an individual is great, he doesn't need to do what it takes to win. If he scores 30 a game, nothing else matters. Maybe if AI practiced better, his team would have won a championship. Doesn't that mean he should have practiced better? Maybe he'd be a better player scoring 27/game and getting 10 more per game from others on the TEAM. Maybe he could have learned how to make his team better at practice.

I hope none of the Texans put stats ahead of team.

ComstockLode
05-26-2006, 03:54 PM
And who wouldve thought that he would act and perform just like he did in college. He came into FSU as the number 1 DT in the nation, and he left their with almost no production to hang his hat on. He had attitude, effort, and weight problems at FSU. Why oh why would you think that in the NFL with millions of dollars guarenteed would that change.

Casserly is an idiot.

Not only for passing on DJ, but for not even drafting the best DT on the board at the time. Marcus Spears.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 03:55 PM
And who wouldve thought that he would act and perform just like he did in college. He came into FSU as the number 1 DT in the nation, and he left their with almost no production to hand his hat on. He had attitude, effort, and weight problems at FSU. Why oh why would you think that in the NFL with millions of dollars guarenteed would that change.

Casserly is an idiot.

Not only for passing on DJ, but for not even drafting the best DT on the board at the time. Marcus Spears.

Is this a DJ rant? Spears is a DE, unless they are moving him to NT.

humbleone
05-26-2006, 03:59 PM
Come on now. This post is a bit much.

I would hate for someone to judge me based on short TV appearances and a media report here and there.

I don't have any idea of what sort of player TJ is going to be this year, and obviously they are lighting a fire under him, but geez, there is speculation and then there is taking a flying leap into silly.

I've told this story before on the MB but I will again because this thread has swung wildly out of control. Last year, I was gonna try to get a Battle Red ballcap signed by some players before a Texans event. It was for a big Texans fan who had cancer and was fixing to lose her hair and was really afraid.

The first player I ran into was Travis Johnson. He couldn't have been any more polite and kind and chatty and positive. A very big personality--one of the most "bright-faced" Texans players I've talked to.

He wrote a inspirational note on the hat for her. He made a point of taking me to where all the other players were hanging out, told them the situation and made a point to ask them to all sign the hat.

She wore that hat all throughout her chemotherapy and hung it above her hospital bed at night. It still means a ton to her. It symbolizes to keep fighting even when things are hard and painful. She jokes that 2006 is gonna be a better year for both her and the Texans.

He could have just signed tha hat and been on his way but he went the extra mile and I will always appreciate that.

I don't know what sort of season TJ is going to have or truly what sort of person he is from the short interaction I had with him, but what I do know is that it is unfair to peg him as sullen based on watching him on the TV.

I truly hope for the best for him--if he has the physical tools, he still has some time to get the rest of it together.

Wow TChick...great post! Perfect example of what people are missing who don't read this board. Thanks and I hope that '06 is better for both your friend and the Texans after all.

ComstockLode
05-26-2006, 04:03 PM
Is this a DJ rant? Spears is a DE, unless they are moving him to NT.

Spears is a DT in the 4-3 and a DE in the 3-4. Same as TJ.

This is a rant of how stupid of a pick this was. Jason Babin thinks the pick was stupid and a waste.

Double Barrel
05-26-2006, 04:04 PM
Allen Iverson didn't need the practice.

MJ, arguably the greatest b-ball player ever, practiced religiously.

If the greatest of the greats had to practice to keep his performance up to level, then everyone else definitely needs to practice.

TJ will be facing o-linemen that are motivated and don't slack. The only way he'll be able to compete is to be driven.

And this is where mental slacking comes into play. If you are not driven to at least strive for excellence, no amount of physical gift(s) will cut it on their own in the NFL.

I am amazed that this thread is even taking place for a first round draft pick making around $10 million a year!

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 04:07 PM
Spear is a DT in the 4-3 and a DE in the 3-4. Same as TJ.

This is a rant of how stupid of a pick this was. Jason Babin thinks the pick was stupid.

Well if Jason Babin thinks so, then by golly, that is good enough for me.

wags
05-26-2006, 04:44 PM
http://images.chron.com/photos/2006/05/25/2100870/311xInlineGallery.jpg


This is beginning to stink of Jonathan Sullivan.

GP
05-26-2006, 05:18 PM
Texans Chick:

That's a great story.

But the problem I have is the inconsistency of TJ, not just in his performance on the field but moreso in his off-field behavior.

Granted, it's not as serious as Earl Campbell's disorder...nor as bad as Ricky Williams' problems. But nonetheless, you can't chalk this up to the run-of-the-mill "big lineman got fat in the offseason and then reports to camp and is told to lose a bunch of weight."

This is a lifestyle issue that the Texans scouting department must have missed when they evaluated him. To me, just as in your story about your friend, the guy seems to be able to flip the switch and act right when it's called for...then go back into his shell and hide out for awhile.

With a lot of our players, whether it's a first rounder like Mario or a late rounder like Domanick Davis, you just always got a sense (when you watched them on the field and off) that they were comfortable in their own skin, that they knew who they were, that they were able to respond to the call. You feel that most of them have a purpose within themselves and they take measured steps to carry it out.

I see a guy who trots on most plays, shaves his head into a mohawk, dotes on Deacon Jones and fantasizes about being like him. I see a guy who sees a thousand feet in front of him and can't seem to take the first step that he should take to get there.

That's all I am saying. Not bagging on him. Actually, I'm concerned for him because he came into a bad situation with it being the year of the Titanic around this organization. Easy to get a little disillusioned, a little jaded, when you're brought in by one head coach and then Whammo! now you're under Captain Fantastic all of a sudden. I want him to get some grace, but at the same time, this could spiral downward reallllllly quickly.

That's all.

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 05:38 PM
This is the major problem with NBA. So many think that because an individual is great, he doesn't need to do what it takes to win. If he scores 30 a game, nothing else matters. Maybe if AI practiced better, his team would have won a championship. Doesn't that mean he should have practiced better? Maybe he'd be a better player scoring 27/game and getting 10 more per game from others on the TEAM. Maybe he could have learned how to make his team better at practice.

I hope none of the Texans put stats ahead of team.


Don't misunderstand me. I think whatever coach that can't explain to Allen Iverson why he needs to be in practice, doesn't need to be an NBA coach. And folks arguing with me....... are flat out Allen Iverson haters.

He would not be a better player..... there is no way he can get any better. He does what he is paid to do. If his team wins, it's because he did his thing.. if they got to the playoffs, it's because AI, was the answer.

That team would have won multiple championships if his coaches were in fact coaches. & I understand who Larry Brown is..... but from what we've seen in Philly, Detroit, and New York, we should understand that Larry Brown is not all that on his own....... team him with a succesful organization, and he will be successfull. Make him the face of an organization that doesn't understand how all the pieces need to fit together..... from owner, to GM, to every VP of whatever, to the players....... & he looks oh so human.

Texans_Chick
05-26-2006, 05:48 PM
Don't misunderstand me. I think whatever coach that can't explain to Allen Iverson why he needs to be in practice, doesn't need to be an NBA coach. And folks arguing with me....... are flat out Allen Iverson haters.

He would not be a better player..... there is no way he can get any better. He does what he is paid to do. If his team wins, it's because he did his thing.. if they got to the playoffs, it's because AI, was the answer.

That team would have won multiple championships if his coaches were in fact coaches. & I understand who Larry Brown is..... but from what we've seen in Philly, Detroit, and New York, we should understand that Larry Brown is not all that on his own....... team him with a succesful organization, and he will be successfull. Make him the face of an organization that doesn't understand how all the pieces need to fit together..... from owner, to GM, to every VP of whatever, to the players....... & he looks oh so human.


This whole Iverson debate reminds me of a recent book review written by one of my favorite writers, Malcolm Gladwell. It is all about how can you evaluate a talent such as Iverson. If you are into this sort of stuff, it is an interesting read.

Some of the same points can apply to evaluating football players as well, though statistically, it might be more difficult with such a large team oriented sport.

Book Review Link (http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/articles/060529crbo_books1)

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 05:49 PM
MJ, arguably the greatest b-ball player ever, practiced religiously.

If the greatest of the greats had to practice to keep his performance up to level, then everyone else definitely needs to practice.

TJ will be facing o-linemen that are motivated and don't slack. The only way he'll be able to compete is to be driven.

And this is where mental slacking comes into play. If you are not driven to at least strive for excellence, no amount of physical gift(s) will cut it on their own in the NFL.

I am amazed that this thread is even taking place for a first round draft pick making around $10 million a year!

Didn't MJ retire...... and still come back and win a championship?? Michael Jordan had a lot of benefits that Allen Iverson never had..... & Michael didn't practice so he could perform at the best of his ability........ he did, so that scottie would, so that Kerr would, so that Longley would put in some meaningful game minutes....

The team benefitted more from MJ being at practice, than MJ did.... same would be true for Kolbe..... a younger Shaq....... LeBron..... AI. Those guys aren't going to get any better..... the people around them will learn to play better, learn to play with that guy...... the team will get better.


there is no correlation between Allen Iverson's situation, and Travis Johnson's.

Exascor
05-26-2006, 05:59 PM
Michael didn't practice so he could perform at the best of his ability........ he did, so that scottie would, so that Kerr would, so that Longley would put in some meaningful game minutes....I'm not quite sure why this thread seems to have gotten so far off track but...

I completely disagree TK. Jordan practiced because he wanted to be the best. He wasn't so good that he didn't need to practice to perfect his gameplay or better understand that new play that coach put into the playbook. He wanted, no he demanded, that the other players perform around him. Steve Kerr said it was amazing to watch. Sure the roleplayers benefited more from practice than Jordan but to say that he practiced only for the benefit of his teammates is really silly imo. He practiced to get better.

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 06:03 PM
I'm not quite sure why this thread seems to have gotten so far off track but...

I completely disagree TK. ..
..... but to say that he practiced only for the benefit of his teammates is really silly imo. He practiced to get better.

I've been called worse....

..... it is just an opinion....

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 06:11 PM
Jordan was always looking to get an edge.This guy was Jordan's trainer. I had one of my clients working out with him to get ready for the draft.

http://www.attackathletics.com/history/index.htm

In 1989 the newspapers reported that Michael Jordan was tired of getting knocked around on the court, and wanted to get stronger for the next season. Dr. John Hefferon, the NBA Team Physician at the time, had heard of Tim and thought he and Michael might be a good fit. He arranged a meeting for the two of them.

Michael agreed to give Tim a try for a few weeks. The match was a great success. Tim’s knowledge of basketball coupled with his background in sports specific training was just what Michael needed to become better. This lead to an edge on the court. The weeks turned into months and soon Tim resigned from all other training to work exclusively with Michael.Word traveled fast among professional athletes that Michael’s trainer had really made a difference in his physique and his game. Player after player contacted Tim in hopes that he would be able to work with them. Tim traveled with Michael during the basketball season and began training many other athletes during the basketball off-season. Today Tim’s list of elite clients reads like a Who’s who in the NBA. Tim has also expanded his business to include notable football and baseball.

Double Barrel
05-26-2006, 06:12 PM
there is no correlation between Allen Iverson's situation, and Travis Johnson's.

I understand where you're coming from, and did not mean to imply that Iverson and Johnson had anything in common.

My main point was that most, if not all, players need to practice to improve their games. That's all I was trying to say, so I just wanted to clear that up. :)

Exascor
05-26-2006, 06:13 PM
I've been called worse....

..... it is just an opinion....I was refering to the opinion, not the poster. :francis:

Texas
05-26-2006, 07:10 PM
Wow....I have lost any faith in this guy until he hits the treadmill and weights...:bowser:

Runner
05-26-2006, 07:20 PM
a) And folks arguing with me....... are flat out Allen Iverson haters.

b) He would not be a better player..... there is no way he can get any better. He does what he is paid to do. If his team wins, it's because he did his thing.. if they got to the playoffs, it's because AI, was the answer.



a) Wow! Thanks for pointing that out - I never realized I hated A.I.

b) Practice makes you better. Maybe he makes one more basket - whatever. The point is the team's goal is to win a championship; if his practicing with his team would bring them closer to that goal then he's not doing his job unless he is practicing with the team.

I'm done, have the last word.

Go Spurs 2007!

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 07:21 PM
a) Wow! Thanks for pointing that out - I never realized I hated A.I.

b) Practice makes you better. Maybe he makes one more basket - whatever. The point is the team's goal is to win a championship; if his practicing with his team would bring them closer to that goal then he's not doing his job unless he is practicing with the team.

I'm done, have the last word.

Go Spurs 2007!

So typical. Just cut and run. Oh yeah, you are Runner.

done88
05-26-2006, 08:08 PM
Lets see what hapens come game day. A lot of people are late starters. THe Texans brass saw something in him and hopefully its still there. They havennot put pads on yet. He is probably huffing and puffing and getting in shape. The coaches are mad that he is using their time to get in shape. He is too talented to cut. Therefore they will humilate him and establish who is runnimg the team. It seams to mr he is becoming an example. Once they make their point TJ will be in the often used rotation. Hopefully with a little humility.

stevo3883
05-26-2006, 08:25 PM
THe Texans brass saw something in him and hopefully its still there. .

the problem is, they aren't...

texan279
05-26-2006, 08:41 PM
I'm not quite sure why this thread seems to have gotten so far off track but...

I completely disagree TK. Jordan practiced because he wanted to be the best. He wasn't so good that he didn't need to practice to perfect his gameplay or better understand that new play that coach put into the playbook. He wanted, no he demanded, that the other players perform around him. Steve Kerr said it was amazing to watch. Sure the roleplayers benefited more from practice than Jordan but to say that he practiced only for the benefit of his teammates is really silly imo. He practiced to get better.

I agree, I just can't comprehend a player practicing to improve his teammates unless it's in a role model sort of way...

thunderkyss
05-26-2006, 09:08 PM
b) Practice makes you better. Maybe he makes one more basket - whatever. The point is the team's goal is to win a championship; if his practicing with his team would bring them closer to that goal then he's not doing his job unless he is practicing with the team.

I'm done, have the last word.



And that is exactly what I'm saying.... everybody thinks this is a silly statement, because it is Allen Iverson, and he is one of the premier players in the league. All the reporters laughed along with Allen because of it. Instead of focusing on the important part, that the team practice is more about the team getting better..... the team winning a championship, and that the star player skipping those practices is detrimental to the team.

I've never heard Barkley(who I like..... can't hate him) Peanut, Kevin Johnson, or Steven A. Smith mention it.

Everyone here....... going on and on about how everyone needs to practice..... Iverson needs to get better. The fact of the matter is that no, he doesn't. There have been dozens of people who have won NBA championships..... dozens who are less talented than AI..... dozens who are less talented, and the man on their team.....

The goofiest thing about that "speech", was that no one has ever called Allen on the fact that if he wants to win the championship, he has got to work with his team.

They say Allen Iverson is selfish, and worried about his personal stats.... then say that he needs to practice so he can improve those stats....

what am I missing here??

AI needs to practice with his team....... but not so that he can get better... but so the team can get better.

GP
05-26-2006, 09:32 PM
Way to stay on track with the topic...

I guess this thread is done.

TwinSisters
05-27-2006, 05:56 AM
"This is a big year for him," Texans coach Gary Kubiak said. "It's year two. Most of the players in this league make their biggest jump from year one to year two if they are going to be a great player and play a long time. So it's time for Travis to do that."


:hmmm:

sOOoooo... does this apply to Carr too? Or did this apply to Carr too?

TwinSisters
05-27-2006, 06:40 AM
]']well carr is working hard, this dude on the other hand, :challenge .

yeah I know but it's past two years... so does that mean he is not going to be great and have a long career in the NFL?

I am kinda just kidding around because development of QBs is a little bit of a different animal.

( plus I don't want to accept the reality that 3 of our 1st round picks have not produced anything good yet, worthy of being in the 1st round that is )

Bobo
05-27-2006, 08:14 AM
:hmmm:

sOOoooo... does this apply to Carr too? Or did this apply to Carr too?

David Carr in 2004 -- 466, att, 285 comp, 61.2 3531 7.58 16 TDs 14 ints

This is not bad for a guy in just his third year on an expansion team. I really don't know why everybody is down on Carr. The guy has shown he can do the job. You put him on a team like the Bears and they make the SB.

thunderkyss
05-27-2006, 09:53 AM
]']Warren Sapp? Ummmm nooooooo! Fat Bastard? Yes! :fireball: :fireball: :fireball:

He has gilligan's upperbody and a huge ***** belly. You cant spin this anyway. Travis is on his way to busting. THAT MAKES ME REAL SAD... When Coach Karmel tells ya "you need to tell your self to work hard". Your F'ed!


The real question is can Kubes afford to lose the respect of his team by keeping this pile of dog poo based on his potential alone. He cant even make the third team. This is sickening. Kubes must cut him, no other way.

Have we gotten reports saying his weight is a problem?? Or do we just not like fat people?? Warren Sapp is a big man, who can play football. Hollis Thompson of the Eagles..... another big man who get's in the backfield and cause havok....... It would be nice, if everyone in the world looked like Simeon Rice, but it is not a prerequisite for playing the DT position.

He's on the practice squad as of now..... But he's playing behind Payne, Weaver, Smith......... there will be a four man rotation, at defensive tackle, and he will be part of that rotation....

Right now, their just trying to motivate him a little bit, trying to get in his head....... it means nothing.

thunderkyss
05-27-2006, 09:59 AM
yeah I know but it's past two years... so does that mean he is not going to be great and have a long career in the NFL?

I am kinda just kidding around because development of QBs is a little bit of a different animal.

( plus I don't want to accept the reality that 3 of our 1st round picks have not produced anything good yet, worthy of being in the 1st round that is )

If anything, TJ ought to be given more of a pass than has been afforded to David Carr...... without a doubt, TJ has been asked to play outside his game more than David.... so has Babin...... I don't understand how the same people that say give David some more time(we're going on year 5)...... but want to bust TJ & Babin right away.... 1 year, & 2 years respectively...

It goes beyond any reasonable football explanation.... it's deeper than that. I fear Mario will face the same scrutiny....

is it because they're black?? is it because they were not the consensus pick?? is it because they were reaches?? The front seven of a 3-4 are always reaches.....

Brandon420tx
05-27-2006, 10:06 AM
Its because they have bigger muscles then the "Haters" also because they aren't the "face" of the franchise.

Exascor
05-27-2006, 10:22 AM
is it because they're black?? is it because they were not the consensus pick?? is it because they were reaches?? The front seven of a 3-4 are always reaches.....I won't address the first question at all.

I'm fairly patient with Babin and TJ but hold them to perform at the level of their draft positions. TJ was a reach AND I wanted DJ instead. TJ needs to be at least as good as a player we passed on imo. TJ is getting ragged on for being out of shape and not being hungry for football.

Babin was a jawdropping pick. When I saw the Texans on the clock I was excited and confused. When I heard who they picked AND what they traded for him I was floored. He needs to perform. He was a reach at that spot as well. I expected 3 years for Babin and with the change to the 4-3 it may take him longer.

Why does Carr get more of a free pass than TJ and Babin? Maybe because Carr was the best QB coming out in 2002. Carr plays at a position that takes time to develop. Carr was supposed to take some time to get into the NFL game. Carr was also hyped to be the "face" of the franchise and many will ignore his faults because of that. Carr has also been an obvious victim of weak talent and poor coaching. Carr has his flaws and if they continue I expect the anti-Carr crowd to grow this year. Carr could turn out to be a decent QB even though he's started weak. If TJ doesn't fix his body and attitude he will never be a starter in the NFL.

aj.
05-27-2006, 10:25 AM
Relax, tk, not everyone is bustin' on TJ. There's a pile on mentality partially at work here and frankly it's not worth engaging that element. As far as your question of race, I guess you have conveniently missed how this board treats guys like Steve McKinney and Todd Wade.

As far as the front seven in a 3-4 "always" being reaches, that's just not right. The hardest postions to fill in the 3-4 are usually the OLBs and nose, but the front three are generally tackles taught a slightly different scheme - and in the case of Pittsburgh's 3-4, the front three attack mode isn't all that much different from the 4-3 front.

In Travis' case, he was a one gap penetrator at Tallahassee and was being asked last year to do something that wasn't used to doing. This year, the scheme better suits his game, but from some of the quotes from his coaches in the article, it sounds like he has motivational issues which has nothing to do with the color of his skin, whether he was a reach, or if he was or wasn't a consensus pick.

I fail to see any deep dark conspiracy at work here and it sounds pretty straightforward when you read what the coaches said. And yeah, I saw TJ at practice last week and he looked flabby and unusually winded, like someone who didn't do much of anything to stay in shape since January.

GP
05-27-2006, 11:04 AM
If anything, TJ ought to be given more of a pass than has been afforded to David Carr...... without a doubt, TJ has been asked to play outside his game more than David.... so has Babin...... I don't understand how the same people that say give David some more time(we're going on year 5)...... but want to bust TJ & Babin right away.... 1 year, & 2 years respectively...

It goes beyond any reasonable football explanation.... it's deeper than that. I fear Mario will face the same scrutiny....

is it because they're black?? is it because they were not the consensus pick?? is it because they were reaches?? The front seven of a 3-4 are always reaches.....

It's not that. He happens to BE black.

This past season, I rode Carr's rear worse than any other Texans player. 90% of this board rode Carr worse than any other player, and it's dropping to about 50% with the arrival of Kubiak...but there's still a nice-sized group of posters here who wish Carr to be on another team.

I don't buy into the idea that TJ is on Kubiak's hit list and that he's already cut and doesn't know it. I think a few posters here are going way overboard in their analysis. TJ is being placed at the bottom of the depth chart because basically that's where he placed himself due to his attitude, work ethic, and weight problems. We've still got the big training camp and scrimmages for him to get serious and work his way up, and we're going to need him for depth even if he's not playing or starting the majority of downs.

He's not a bust yet, but he's teetering on the verge of it. We need him to be the force that he was at FSU.

Kaiser Toro
05-27-2006, 11:14 AM
This whole incident has gone over board. Kind of reminds me of the photo being passed around work, years ago, where a dude on our floor was dressed up in a dress drinking straight from a fifth of JD.

Perfectly normal dude, but caught in one moment the image that he worked so hard to maintain was pretty much destroyed.

I keep hearing why not Bush given Davis' knee. Well maybe the defense saw that TJ was having some issues and felt that Weaver was not the only answer as an addition to the DL. :mario: :stirpot: :mario:

kingh99
05-27-2006, 11:27 AM
Bust.

Next.

Seriously they didn't do their due dilligence on this fellow just like they didn't on a bunch of others. If Casserly and Capers were gamblers, after picking the wrong team on the umpteenth bet in a row, they would have been smarter to make a choice and then automatically go with the other guy. Could not have been any worse, I say. That's how bad they were at trying to pick winners.

And as far as saying it's overboard, come on, this player's done zero to this point. Also if you are a young person or have kids, the thing KT is describing above will be commonplace 5 -10 years from now when co-workers will be looking up other co-worker's Myspace pages cached by forward thinking people today. Think Classmates only much much worse.

Tex Trenches
05-27-2006, 12:02 PM
He can't play like Decon Jones from the sidelines.

swtbound07
05-27-2006, 01:17 PM
If we are measuring players by the performance of players we passed for them, then David Carr has to answer to Julius Peppers caliber performance. TJ had ONE SEASON. ONE. In a system he hadn't played, in the jump from college to the nfl, in a pretty deep d-line rotation. Now, I thought this was the new kubiak era of clean slates. All of you Carr apologists should be the first ones in line to give travis another shot. Everyone else....In kubiak we trust right? So if the man decides TJ is right for the defense, we have to trust him dont we. We dont know how Tj will perform next to mario, now do we? Give him time, and Babin too.

Vinny
05-27-2006, 01:45 PM
If we are measuring players by the performance of players we passed for them, then David Carr has to answer to Julius Peppers caliber performance. TJ had ONE SEASON. ONE. In a system he hadn't played, in the jump from college to the nfl, in a pretty deep d-line rotation. Now, I thought this was the new kubiak era of clean slates. All of you Carr apologists should be the first ones in line to give travis another shot. Everyone else....In kubiak we trust right? So if the man decides TJ is right for the defense, we have to trust him dont we. We dont know how Tj will perform next to mario, now do we? Give him time, and Babin too. It's amazing that we will give the clean cut good looking kid 6 years to show his stuff but the big ugly kid gets one year.

*edited for sanity

Kaiser Toro
05-27-2006, 01:50 PM
It's amazing that we will give the clean cut good looking kid 6 years to show his stuff but the big ugly kid gets one year.

*edited for sanity

You are not kidding.

swtbound07
05-27-2006, 01:58 PM
It's amazing that we will give the clean cut good looking kid 6 years to show his stuff but the big ugly kid gets one year.

*edited for sanity


I wonder how much of that is left over resentment over the derrick johnson passing. The thing is, I talked to a scout who told me unequivocally (who i also trust implicitly) that if DJ was at 16 we pass on him again. Don't hate Travis because you wanted DJ. dj was never going to be a texan.

thunderkyss
05-27-2006, 03:58 PM
It's amazing that we will give the clean cut good looking kid 6 years to show his stuff but the big ugly kid gets one year.

*edited for sanity

hmpff.....

Texans86
05-27-2006, 04:20 PM
I'm ready to give him a chance in pads. He became a Texan at the worst possible moment to become a Texan, in meltdown time. He moved positions and now is forced to move back to his normal position. This is like year one for him again. Almost everything he learned last year is wasted and he has to learn the tempo all over again. Given, he hasn't made a good impression so far, but maybe pushing him will get him to push back. I just hope it doesn't crush him beyond reparation.

the wonger need food
05-27-2006, 04:36 PM
If anything, TJ ought to be given more of a pass than has been afforded to David Carr...... without a doubt, TJ has been asked to play outside his game more than David.... so has Babin...... I don't understand how the same people that say give David some more time(we're going on year 5)...... but want to bust TJ & Babin right away.... 1 year, & 2 years respectively...

It goes beyond any reasonable football explanation.... it's deeper than that. I fear Mario will face the same scrutiny....

is it because they're black?? is it because they were not the consensus pick?? is it because they were reaches?? The front seven of a 3-4 are always reaches.....

Yeah, it's because he's black. We (white people) don't like this recent infusion of black players into the NFL and this is our way of showing our discontent.

But seriously... is Babin black? He looks mostly caucasion to me.

Davie Franchise will get a pass for as long as he's here because he's pretty.

texan279
05-27-2006, 04:50 PM
First all of the race stuff with Vince Young, now with TJ. Seems pretty ridiculous to me. Is Peek ahead of Babin right now because Babin's white? Sheesh. This is the NFL, the coaches are going to put the 11 players on the field who give their team the best chance to win, whether someone is black, white, green, or purple, it doesn't matter as long as they get out there bust @#$ and get the job done.

thunderkyss
05-27-2006, 07:02 PM
First all of the race stuff with Vince Young, now with TJ. Seems pretty ridiculous to me. Is Peek ahead of Babin right now because Babin's white? Sheesh. This is the NFL, the coaches are going to put the 11 players on the field who give their team the best chance to win, whether someone is black, white, green, or purple, it doesn't matter as long as they get out there bust @#$ and get the job done.

I believe that.. but for some reason, some folks on this board are extremely lenient(sp) with certain individuals on our team..... yet unfairly critical of others...

'sides...... nobody said it was because he was black, it was a question.

the wonger need food
05-27-2006, 08:18 PM
I believe that.. but for some reason, some folks on this board are extremely lenient(sp) with certain individuals on our team..... yet unfairly critical of others...

'sides...... nobody said it was because he was black, it was a question.

In my honest opinion, no one (at least on this board) gives a crud about skin color. The NFL is about 70% black. If race were an issue, these people would not be NFL fans at all. We are a results-based group. Matt Stevens received as much criticism as anyone else on this board.

Davie Franchise gets a pass for whatever reason... but I don't believe it's race-related.

texan279
05-27-2006, 08:21 PM
In my honest opinion, no one (at least on this board) gives a crud about skin color. The NFL is about 70% black. If race were an issue, these people would not be NFL fans at all. We are a results-based group. Matt Stevens received as much criticism as anyone else on this board.

Davie Franchise gets a pass for whatever reason... but I don't believe it's race-related.

LOL Stevens STILL receives criticism on here and I don't think anyone even knows where he is now! :gathering:

Brandon420tx
05-27-2006, 08:24 PM
He's in Mexico, making a in the ring fighting bulls OLE!.

texan279
05-27-2006, 08:25 PM
He's in Mexico, making a in the ring fighting bulls OLE!.

As long as he doesn't have to tackle the bull he'll be alright!

TexanFan881
05-27-2006, 08:26 PM
In my opinion it's discusting how much effort both Travis Johnson and Jason Babin have put into getting in shape in the offseason. This is the NFL. C'mon! They're both recent 1st round picks and have both been disappointing in some ways so far in their careers. They will pay for this and it's already showing on the depth chart. :brickwall:

thunderkyss
05-27-2006, 08:57 PM
In my opinion it's discusting how much effort both Travis Johnson and Jason Babin have put into getting in shape in the offseason. This is the NFL. C'mon! They're both recent 1st round picks and have both been disappointing in some ways so far in their careers. They will pay for this and it's already showing on the depth chart. :brickwall:


The depth chart means nothing right now. All it means, is that Kubiak is letting these guys know they cannot take for granted that they will have a spot on the team.

Peek over Babin?? hmm.....

TJ...... practice squad??

I'll believe it when I don't see him in the pre-season.

texan279
05-27-2006, 09:09 PM
In my opinion it's discusting how much effort both Travis Johnson and Jason Babin have put into getting in shape in the offseason. This is the NFL. C'mon! They're both recent 1st round picks and have both been disappointing in some ways so far in their careers. They will pay for this and it's already showing on the depth chart. :brickwall:


Do we really know how much effort they have put into their offseason workouts? And sure neither have wowed anyone, but Babin played a 4-3 DE and TE in college and came into the NFL to play OLB in Fangio's 3-4 and Johnson played DT in college and came to us and Fangio put him in at DE. And now they are both being asked to go back to doing what they did in college. I mean usually when a QB comes out of college and into the NFL it takes some time for him adjust to playing QB in the NFL as compared to playing QB in college. Think about playing one position in college, being drafted by the Texans, put into Fangio's system and asked to play a different position on defense for a year or two, then a new coach comes along, implements a different scheme, and then you have to go back to what you did in college. I don't expect anyone really on the whole team to come out looking like superstars in these camps with a new coaching staff and schemes in place.

Marcus
05-27-2006, 09:15 PM
'sides...... nobody said it was because he was black, it was a question.
You . are . so . full . of . it! You knew exactly what this thread would turn into when you played the 'card'. All because you didn't like the criticism of his maturity and work ethic.

:loser

thunderkyss
05-27-2006, 09:44 PM
You . are . so . full . of . it! You knew exactly what this thread would turn into when you played the 'card'. All because you didn't like the criticism of his maturity and work ethic.


People have been extrapolating on speculation since this thread started. The particular article you quoted said absolutely nothing about his work ethic, or lack there of, or his maturity... or lack there of, to the extent that he has been criticized by the fans on this board who'll give the QB 6 years to prove he should be earning ProBowl money.

He's a kid........ he needs to look at this like a job..... 'nuff said.

"His hands and feet aren't working together at all, and it's making him play high, and he's giving up the fleshy part of his body too much," defensive line coach Bob Karmelowicz said.



This is about his playing, his technique..... his old coaches didn't fix these problems...... for all I know, they may have been things they thought him to do....... you know like teaching a quarterback to run out of bounds, behind the line of scrimmage, with the ball......... or taking a sack to kill the clock.

"A lot of times guys go, 'Hey, come on; it's May. We have no pads,' " Karmelowicz said. "They give you a list of reasons why they shouldn't do anything hard. But you must give yourself permission to do it. That's what's got to click on with him right now. That's what he's fighting. As soon as he allows himself to do it, he'll pick it up in a New York minute."


Now this does imply TJ isn't giving 100% on the field.... doesn't allude to him being a slacker in the weight room, or just being there to collect a paycheck, or any of the other things he is being accused of here. Nothing to signal bust.

Karmelowicz said he still views Johnson as a legitimate first-round pick.



"Athletically, you would take him," Karmelowicz said. "But maturity level — the way people's visions are of how they perceive things — is where he is off a little bit. That's just my opinion. It comes back to allowing yourself to say, 'Hey, I'm going to give myself permission to do this.' He needs to make a courageous step and take a chance."

Again, he is saying TJ should look at OTA as a time to give 100%.... to go all out.......

Again...... this is may..... we're talking about practice.



http://images.chron.com/photos/2006/05/25/2100870/311xInlineGallery.jpg http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/sapp_20021211.jpg

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall03/Dawson/sapp2.jpg
http://www.sportsposterwarehouse.com/warehouse/sapp00cos-1.jpg

Don't forget...... he is effectively a rookie this year.

No mention of any weight concerns what-so-ever.

ComstockLode
05-28-2006, 01:27 AM
But what you forget, Sapp was a beast in college and a beast in the NFL. Travis Johnson has done neither.

Travis Johnson will never be good enough to touch sapp's jock strap. He will be lucky to get half the production of Sapp in his career. Comparing the two is like comparing favre and carr.

Favre is a hall of famer and one of the greatest ever at his position. Carr throws hard and is not good.

So yes, both sapp and travis johnson are fat. Just like carr and favre throw hard.

kingh99
05-28-2006, 03:36 AM
But what you forget, Sapp was a beast in college and a beast in the NFL. Travis Johnson has done neither.

Travis Johnson will never be good enough to touch sapp's jock strap. He will be lucky to get half the production of Sapp in his career. Comparing the two is like comparing favre and carr.

Favre is a hall of famer and one of the greatest ever at his position. Carr throws hard and is not good.

So yes, both sapp and travis johnson are fat. Just like carr and favre throw hard.


I wonder what up with Florida State's program? It produces a lot of potential that doesn't translate to the NFL. Every year teams keep rolling the dice. This year it's Bunkley.

"Wadsworth, Alexander, Wilson and Carreker have been major disappointments, and 2000 Lombardi Award winner Reynolds appears headed for a similar fate. Boulware and Simon have been the exceptions."

I remember hearing one of the analysts say that when they made the pick for Travis Johnson last year. I thought it figures but hey hope springs eternal. Then I heard him interview with the local media. Oh **** we're in trouble. And indeed that's how it's played out. ****ty pick.

thunderkyss
05-28-2006, 10:58 AM
But what you forget, Sapp was a beast in college and a beast in the NFL. Travis Johnson has done neither.

Travis Johnson will never be good enough to touch sapp's jock strap. He will be lucky to get half the production of Sapp in his career. Comparing the two is like comparing favre and carr.

Favre is a hall of famer and one of the greatest ever at his position. Carr throws hard and is not good.

So yes, both sapp and travis johnson are fat. Just like carr and favre throw hard.

Warren Sapp went straight into the NFL, with a real defensive minded coach, with a real NFL defense.

All I'm saying, is stick to the facts...... we have no reports of any weight concerns......

All we have is that the coaches would like him to turn his motor up more often in practice.

He was not asked to get after the QB, or to do any of the things we like to see a DT do in the nfl....... Name one DT playing in the 3-4 that you'd like TJ to be more like......

He was asked to occupy offensive linemen, to allow the linebackers to get the goods..... sacks, tackles for losses...

He didn't do that well....... none of our DLinemen did.

The comparison to Sapp, is meant to only draw comparison to the physique & point out that he can have success at that position, looking like he does.

aj.
05-28-2006, 12:52 PM
Good god enough with the Barret Robbins comparisions. ADD and ADHD isn't quite the same as bipolar disorder. jeez....

At least let TJ play one season in a 4-3 (badly) before you crush the guy.

Ibar_Harry
05-28-2006, 01:24 PM
If Vinny and I looked like TJ because we sat around on the pourch and watched our dogs run around it would be one thing. However, for TJ to look like he does right now is scary for him personally. He is simply to young to look like that.

Its one thing to come out in shape and try hard and not make it and its another to simply be not prepared at all. It would appear that TJ is not ready to really participate in team activities.

Almost everyone on this board knows how bad the coaching staff was last year and has stated on more than one occassion to not evaluate a player based on what happened last year. Base your thoughts on what they are doing under the new coaching scheme and how they are looking under that scheme.

Many players came in in very good shape looking forward to a new season. It would appear that TJ hasn't and he looks miserable in those dark clothes on a hot humid Houston day.

One thing of note is that only Denver is starting TC's later than we are. In other words on most teams he would be in serious trouble with no time to recover. I guess he has until June 9 to get some weight off and get in shape. If he really tries he might be able to do it. I hope he does for his own sake if not for the team.

Texans86
05-28-2006, 01:39 PM
He's young. And it is possible that he came to OTA's out of shape. He screwed up because he is out of shape. Got it. We don't have to crucify the guy now. It's only his second year. And he probably didn't get a lot of help last year. It's a simple fact in the NFL that you don't cut a second year rookie. First, there's too much invested in them, and second, there's too much left in potential. Drafts are not scored immediately afterward, a year later, or even two years later. In the next season we'll get a good idea of where he is at, but it won't be for two more years that we can really tell.

Will everyone please stop trying to find a scapegoat for last year. The entire team screwed up, from coaching staff down to kicker. There's a reason almost all the coaches are gone, and only like 38 of the 95 or so players on the roster were from last year. We cleaned house. And by the time training camp is over, half the team may be different. But we won't know until after training camp and the real games begin.

Texans86
05-28-2006, 02:01 PM
Alright, I finally took a minute to think about TJ's picture from OTAs, and realized that he is not wearing pads. Wait a second, I thought to myself, I wonder what he looked like in college. So I took a little time and searched for a Florida State pick with him in pads. And guess what I realized? When he had pads on, he still had a little pudge in his stomach. So basically, I saw that without pads, he is just a large guy, not incredibly fat. I used a little bit of my imagination, and saw that with pads, the TJ in that pic would also have just a little bit of pudge, not a whole lot. Those jersey's are not the jersey's they wear during games, they are practice jerseys, and are tight so they dont get in the way. Yes, TJ may be a little out of shape, but I don't think he is nearly as bad as most people are assuming.

http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/pkg/05NFLdraft/250/8372.jpg http://www.texansbullpen.com/06photogallery/Preseason/2006-05-18-PlayerPractice/Photos/DSC_0152_1.JPG
http://www.draftshowcase.com/TravisJohnson.jpg

Ibar_Harry
05-28-2006, 02:07 PM
Alright, I finally took a minute to think about TJ's picture from OTAs, and realized that he is not wearing pads. Wait a second, I thought to myself, I wonder what he looked like in college. So I took a little time and searched for a Florida State pick with him in pads. And guess what I realized? When he had pads on, he still had a little pudge in his stomach. So basically, I saw that without pads, he is just a large guy, not incredibly fat. I used a little bit of my imagination, and saw that with pads, the TJ in that pic would also have just a little bit of pudge, not a whole lot. Those jersey's are not the jersey's they wear during games, they are practice jerseys, and are tight so they dont get in the way. Yes, TJ may be a little out of shape, but I don't think he is nearly as bad as most people are assuming.

http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/pkg/05NFLdraft/250/8372.jpg

http://www.draftshowcase.com/TravisJohnson.jpg

I think if you put the other picture beside the ones you are showing you would see a decided difference. No, I think he has a very large stomach in the Texan's camp which is not nearly as evident in the game pictures you are showing. I don't think its the jerseys that make a difference in this case.

GP
05-28-2006, 02:12 PM
Bust.

Next.

Seriously they didn't do their due dilligence on this fellow just like they didn't on a bunch of others. If Casserly and Capers were gamblers, after picking the wrong team on the umpteenth bet in a row, they would have been smarter to make a choice and then automatically go with the other guy. Could not have been any worse, I say. That's how bad they were at trying to pick winners.

And as far as saying it's overboard, come on, this player's done zero to this point. Also if you are a young person or have kids, the thing KT is describing above will be commonplace 5 -10 years from now when co-workers will be looking up other co-worker's Myspace pages cached by forward thinking people today. Think Classmates only much much worse.

Bingo.

We have a guy who flipped the switch during interviews. A guy who is basically a chameleon who adapst to whatever is needed at the moment.

The knock on D'brickashaw Ferguson was that he was so interested and passionate about other things (martial arts, for instance) that mayyyyyyybe he wasn't going to play very hard in the NFL--A potential slacker.

TJ, up to this point, makes me think along these lines. Although, I guess his passion is eating small runaway children.

And the slams on David Carr, saying we give a pretty boy 6 years and TJ only one, is funny because David's the only guy playing football out there. The o line couldn't even extend a hand for a handshake as defenders poured through the line like a leaky bathtub, and Carr gets pounded play after play for four years. I guess that doesn't count in some people's eyes. Four years of completely incompetent coaching, resulting in a keystone cop offense and protection plan, and Carr is to blame. Oy.

Do yourselves a favor before rushing to execute Carr and exonerate TJ: Please do an apples-to-apples comparison and not apples-to-oranges.

And "Thank you" to the one member posting on this thread who has degenerated this thread down into a race question. Hooray!

Kaiser Toro
05-28-2006, 02:17 PM
Perfectly good comparision between a four year QB drafted at #1 and a 1st year player drafted at #16 playing out of position his first year. Yes I can totally see the similarities in pay and opportunity to date. :rolleyes:

GP
05-28-2006, 02:23 PM
Perfectly good comparision between a four year QB drafted at #1 and a 1st year player drafted at #16 playing out of position his first year. Yes I can totally see the similarities in pay and opportunity to date. :rolleyes:

Sir Trot-A-Lot (Travis Johnson) made himself out to be the second coming of Deacon Jones, and all I saw was a trotting blob of goo out there. Mostly, it's a case of mouthitis where the mouth overruns the rear end.

I've seen David Carr make plays and take the tough hit to try and scrounge out SOMETHING from the childish playcalling of Dom and The Doolittle Gang.

David's here. Dom's gone. I guess the "professionals" have seen enough to think the QB is not as bad as you and others are making him out to be. And now they are "concerned" about the large, round guy.

Man, you guys really hate David Carr don't you? I hope he lights it up this year. And for those of you living in Austin, "lights it up" means playing well...not lighting up another doobie on the way to a Willie Nelson concert where you sing and cry to "Cowboys are frequently..." (had to jab that one at you, Kaiser.)

Texans86
05-28-2006, 02:24 PM
I'm really thinking that the one pic that everyone is using is just really unflattering, the only other stuff I can find doesn't look nearly as bad. He's a lineman. And one of the bigger ones at that, the DT. Just his posture and the way his jersey is rolled up makes him look fat. I found another pic that I added thats up just a couple of posts, where he doesn't look as out of shape. He may still be out of shape, but he's not Victor Riley.

Wolf
05-28-2006, 02:40 PM
wish I had a picture of him from last season to see if he did gain weight or not

Ibar_Harry
05-28-2006, 02:46 PM
The previous picture and this one show something very interesting. He's the only one wearing a long sleeve shirt. I would guess he's wearing what he is to loose weight. I wonder if he's wearing one of those weight reducing vests underneath that shirt.

Runner
05-28-2006, 02:49 PM
I admit that I had some questions about how TJ is doing in the OTA's, but that was tempered by it being early in the training cycle. I hope he reaches his perceived potential, but that remains to be seen.

However, the negativism that has exploded on the subject reminds me of sharks scenting blood in the water. Nothing like a little bad press to churn up the waters around here.

wags
05-28-2006, 02:50 PM
And for those of you living in Austin, "lights it up" means playing well...not lighting up another doobie on the way to a Willie Nelson concert where you sing and cry to "Cowboys are frequently..."

Is that before or after us Austinites burn the flag and drive our hybrids to the local coffee shop?

Kaiser Toro
05-28-2006, 02:51 PM
Sir Trot-A-Lot (Travis Johnson) made himself out to be the second coming of Deacon Jones, and all I saw was a trotting blob of goo out there. Mostly, it's a case of mouthitis where the mouth overruns the rear end.

I've seen David Carr make plays and take the tough hit to try and scrounge out SOMETHING from the childish playcalling of Dom and The Doolittle Gang.

David's here. Dom's gone. I guess the "professionals" have seen enough to think the QB is not as bad as you and others are making him out to be. And now they are "concerned" about the large, round guy.

Man, you guys really hate David Carr don't you? I hope he lights it up this year. And for those of you living in Austin, "lights it up" means playing well...not lighting up another doobie on the way to a Willie Nelson concert where you sing and cry to "Cowboys are frequently..." (had to jab that one at you, Kaiser.)

Hold on a second professor, you made the comparision between the two I was simply poo pooing on it. If you do not want this to turn into a Carr thread then do not bring him up.

Kaiser Toro
05-28-2006, 02:55 PM
Is that before or after us Austinites burn the flag and drive our hybrids to the local coffee shop?

Maybe some burning of the US flag, but never the Lone Star. Home rule forever is my motto and something that scares the GOP in Texas. There is a reason why Austin is the largest city in the nation that does not have it's own congressional district. We threaten due to our open minds, comraderie and money in Austin.

:soapbox:

DominickDavisFan76
05-28-2006, 03:04 PM
He is getting less reps then Alfred Malone, i always release that dude when i play madden cuz he sucks.

So i really hope TJ does something or try to trade him for maybe a 2nd or 3rd if he doesnt get his act together.

ComstockLode
05-28-2006, 03:48 PM
Warren Sapp went straight into the NFL, with a real defensive minded coach, with a real NFL defense.

All I'm saying, is stick to the facts...... we have no reports of any weight concerns......

All we have is that the coaches would like him to turn his motor up more often in practice.

He was not asked to get after the QB, or to do any of the things we like to see a DT do in the nfl....... Name one DT playing in the 3-4 that you'd like TJ to be more like......

He was asked to occupy offensive linemen, to allow the linebackers to get the goods..... sacks, tackles for losses...

He didn't do that well....... none of our DLinemen did.

The comparison to Sapp, is meant to only draw comparison to the physique & point out that he can have success at that position, looking like he does.


Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Marcus Spears, LaRoi Glover.

And these are all off of the top of my head. None of them put up any stats whatsoever, and yet are key players to their team.

I dont think hampton had a single sack last year, and he made the pro bowl.

Travis Johnson will never have more than 6 sacks in a season. If he ever gets a chance to make another one for the rest of his life. He was a disappointment and joke at FSU, and he continues the trend in the NFL.

I repeat, he was the number 1 DT in the nation out of high school and pissed it away. Then casserly thinks its a great idea to see if he can do that in the NFL as well? Instead of drafting a guy who was a known playmaker in college ie. marcus spears. Or hell, drafting a guy who might be at a need position instead of someone to add depth.

Stupid pick. Bottomline. Defend it anyway you like, but in three years you will laugh remembering that you ever defended him.

ComstockLode
05-28-2006, 03:52 PM
He's young. And it is possible that he came to OTA's out of shape. He screwed up because he is out of shape. Got it. We don't have to crucify the guy now. It's only his second year. And he probably didn't get a lot of help last year. It's a simple fact in the NFL that you don't cut a second year rookie. First, there's too much invested in them, and second, there's too much left in potential. Drafts are not scored immediately afterward, a year later, or even two years later. In the next season we'll get a good idea of where he is at, but it won't be for two more years that we can really tell.

Will everyone please stop trying to find a scapegoat for last year. The entire team screwed up, from coaching staff down to kicker. There's a reason almost all the coaches are gone, and only like 38 of the 95 or so players on the roster were from last year. We cleaned house. And by the time training camp is over, half the team may be different. But we won't know until after training camp and the real games begin.

Its called a trend. He did the same thing in college. Lazy lazy in workouts, never worked as hard as he should have.

F-minus67
05-28-2006, 04:18 PM
Man good thing we don't need to see him play in an actual game in the new 4-3 defense. I mean even though new he is second or thrid all time on florida states list for tackles for loss and could dominate for periods of time, he must be a bust since he played out of position last year. Just cause he gained some weight he is terrible? Give me a break. I'll wait until august until I make my decision on him, I mean everyone remembers these are OTAs right? If he didn't care or was a slacker, then why does he even show up?

Kaiser Toro
05-28-2006, 04:29 PM
Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Marcus Spears, LaRoi Glover.

And these are all off of the top of my head. None of them put up any stats whatsoever, and yet are key players to their team.

I dont think hampton had a single sack last year, and he made the pro bowl.

Travis Johnson will never have more than 6 sacks in a season. If he ever gets a chance to make another one for the rest of his life. He was a disappointment and joke at FSU, and he continues the trend in the NFL.

I repeat, he was the number 1 DT in the nation out of high school and pissed it away. Then casserly thinks its a great idea to see if he can do that in the NFL as well? Instead of drafting a guy who was a known playmaker in college ie. marcus spears. Or hell, drafting a guy who might be at a need position instead of someone to add depth.

Stupid pick. Bottomline. Defend it anyway you like, but in three years you will laugh remembering that you ever defended him.

Our entire defense stunk last year. So there were either a ton of draft mistakes by the Texans and from past teams or they were the coached by the worst DC in the history of football.

ComstockLode
05-28-2006, 04:47 PM
Our entire defense stunk last year. So there were either a ton of draft mistakes by the Texans and from past teams or they were the coached by the worst DC in the history of football.

You mind looking at the talent of the defense as well.

Dunta Robinson is the only above average player in the secondary. Our safeties may be the two worst starting safeties in the league, and our second corner situation looks bad again.

We dont have a middle linebacker this year, and our best returning LB is an average one. We at least drafted to try and fill in one of the spots, but Demeco doesnt address the issue we have at MLB. We have decent DT's, and our Defensive ends have tons of potential. Although, I do not think peek or babin will be an answer.

And this is including what we added this year, and we still arent really bursting at the seams with talent on that side of the ball.

And really none of this has anything to do with the topic so I will get back to it. I love college football and I love the recruiting side of it as well. I pay for a subscription to rivals, and I frequent many message boards and news sites for college teams. The personal/attitude problems of this player is part of his package. If we were basing how he will do in the NFL just on physical talent, he would be a great player. But players like jerry rice and joe montana would be bench warmers.

Drafting players based on physical abilities alone is stupid.

Trust me, we are better off chalking this up as another mistake from the last regime and moving on. Any production from this guy will be a bonus.

ComstockLode
05-28-2006, 04:48 PM
Man good thing we don't need to see him play in an actual game in the new 4-3 defense. I mean even though new he is second or thrid all time on florida states list for tackles for loss and could dominate for periods of time, he must be a bust since he played out of position last year. Just cause he gained some weight he is terrible? Give me a break. I'll wait until august until I make my decision on him, I mean everyone remembers these are OTAs right? If he didn't care or was a slacker, then why does he even show up?

Please show me this list where he is second or third all time.

Or is that one of those cases where 57% of all statistics are made up.

Kaiser Toro
05-28-2006, 04:56 PM
You mind looking at the talent of the defense as well.

Dunta Robinson is the only above average player in the secondary. Our safeties may be the two worst starting safeties in the league, and our second corner situation looks bad again.

We dont have a middle linebacker this year, and our best returning LB is an average one. We at least drafted to try and fill in one of the spots, but Demeco doesnt address the issue we have at MLB. We have decent DT's, and our Defensive ends have tons of potential. Although, I do not think peek or babin will be an answer.

And this is including what we added this year, and we still arent really bursting at the seams with talent on that side of the ball.

And really none of this has anything to do with the topic so I will get back to it. I love college football and I love the recruiting side of it as well. I pay for a subscription to rivals, and I frequent many message boards and news sites for college teams. The personal/attitude problems of this player is part of his package. If we were basing how he will do in the NFL just on physical talent, he would be a great player. But players like jerry rice and joe montana would be bench warmers.

Drafting players based on physical abilities alone is stupid.

Trust me, we are better off chalking this up as another mistake from the last regime and moving on. Any production from this guy will be a bonus.

Trust me we are better off with a new staff, a change to a 4-3 and a significant investment on the defensive side of the ball. All things point to putting our guys into position to do what they do best, leverage stregths and disguise weaknesses.

I know many love the centerfold spread of TJ as it makes their inner Longhorn GM smile, but we are talking about practice. ;) Perception is always reality in the preseason in my opinion and it should give the young man the impetus to get it going. He is still of immense value even if he comes off the bench. Moreover, depth on the DL is incredibly important especially against the Colts.

aj.
05-28-2006, 05:11 PM
Please show me this list where he is second or third all time.

Or is that one of those cases where 57% of all statistics are made up.Google Florida State's 2005 Media Guide and look under defensive records. You will see that TJ is third all time in tackles for loss in a season and in a game (2004).

GP
05-28-2006, 05:29 PM
Hold on a second professor, you made the comparision between the two I was simply poo pooing on it. If you do not want this to turn into a Carr thread then do not bring him up.

This has turned into a no-holds-barred UFC-sanctioned thread, let alone a "Carr thread."

Carr gets dragged into every thread.

It's like that Kevin Bacon game where every actor or actress can be linked to Kevin Bacon.

:whip:

GP
05-28-2006, 05:41 PM
Trust me we are better off with a new staff, a change to a 4-3 and a significant investment on the defensive side of the ball. All things point to putting our guys into position to do what they do best, leverage stregths and disguise weaknesses.

I know many love the centerfold spread of TJ as it makes their inner Longhorn GM smile, but we are talking about practice. ;) Perception is always reality in the preseason in my opinion and it should give the young man the impetus to get it going. He is still of immense value even if he comes off the bench. Moreover, depth on the DL is incredibly important especially against the Colts.

How are we going to disguise our entire defense? Because while I am very willing to be optimistic about our chances at improvement on the offensive side of the ball, I am slowly growing more concerned about the defense that comstocklode is also choosing to heckle.

The front four is head and shoulders better than the remaining 7 defenders we put on the field (minus Dunta, of course)...and we are probably going to improve against the run, IMO, and we'll probably see teams employ a spread offense like the Colts utilize. We are going to see teams rip the disguise right off our defense when they figure out they can three-step-drop and pop the ball to their receivers because our LBs and backfield are second-rate compared to most other NFL teams.

Offense was improved this offseason, but the TJ pick is becoming a glaring problem for me.

Kaiser Toro
05-28-2006, 05:46 PM
Disguise admittedly was not the optimal word, but referring to putting players in posiition to fail such as Fangio's D did to many of our players. Whether it be Babin, Peek, TJ or Buchanon these players were brought into a defense where they played a different position prior or played the position, as the defensive plan asked of them, in a way that was out of there comfort zone and were consequently exposed.

F-minus67
05-28-2006, 05:46 PM
Someone beat me to it, but here some more about TJ's records:

I got this off the main texans site

...totaled 175 career tackles with four fumble recoveries, 43.5 tackles for loss, 10 sacks and 31 quarterback pressures…finished third in Florida St. history in tackles for loss

…started all 12 games at left defensive tackle and was an all-ACC first-team choice after recording 50 tackles with 2.5 sacks, 18 tackles for loss and 12 quarterback pressures…only Alonzo Jackson (18.5 in 2002) and Darnell Dockett (22 in 2001) had more tackles for loss in a season for the Seminoles

So maybe he has some skills that weren't used last year.

ComstockLode
05-28-2006, 08:23 PM
Someone beat me to it, but here some more about TJ's records:

I got this off the main texans site

...totaled 175 career tackles with four fumble recoveries, 43.5 tackles for loss, 10 sacks and 31 quarterback pressures…finished third in Florida St. history in tackles for loss

…started all 12 games at left defensive tackle and was an all-ACC first-team choice after recording 50 tackles with 2.5 sacks, 18 tackles for loss and 12 quarterback pressures…only Alonzo Jackson (18.5 in 2002) and Darnell Dockett (22 in 2001) had more tackles for loss in a season for the Seminoles

So maybe he has some skills that weren't used last year.

And I introduce you to Marcus Spears ladies and gentlemen....a man without attitude problems and a better resume. Not to mention no rape charges or ADD.

"2004: Spears put together a career year as a senior, earning first-team All-America honors from the Walter Camp Foundation and American Football coaches Association, second-team All-America honors from Sports Illustrated, first-team All-SEC honors and was a semifinalist for the Bednarik Award (nation's top defensive player), Lott Trophy (courage) and Lombardi Award (nation's top lineman). He finished the year tying his career-high in tackles (49) while setting career-highs for tackles for losses (17) and sacks (nine - a figure that ranks fourth in LSU single-season annals). He also recorded 21 quarterback pressures to help the Tigers finish the year third in the country in total defense. Over the final five games of the season, Spears contributed 14 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and eight sacks."

"2003: During LSU's magical national championship season, Spears contributed 49 tackles, 23 quarterback pressures, 13 stops for losses, six sacks and six passes defensed to earn first-team All-SEC honors. laying against Oklahoma for the national championship in the Sugar Bowl, Spears totaled two tackles, a sack, a tackle for a loss and an interception he returned 20 yards for a touchdown to give the Tigers a 21-7 third quarter advantage in their eventual 21-14 victory."

And dont get me started on how DJ wouldve helped this team, that way you guys can spare me the homer pick.

Marcus spears was by far a better player out of college and will by far be a better pro player.

Kaiser Toro
05-28-2006, 08:36 PM
And I introduce you to Marcus Spears ladies and gentlemen....a man without attitude problems and a better resume. Not to mention no rape charges or ADD.

"2004: Spears put together a career year as a senior, earning first-team All-America honors from the Walter Camp Foundation and American Football coaches Association, second-team All-America honors from Sports Illustrated, first-team All-SEC honors and was a semifinalist for the Bednarik Award (nation's top defensive player), Lott Trophy (courage) and Lombardi Award (nation's top lineman). He finished the year tying his career-high in tackles (49) while setting career-highs for tackles for losses (17) and sacks (nine - a figure that ranks fourth in LSU single-season annals). He also recorded 21 quarterback pressures to help the Tigers finish the year third in the country in total defense. Over the final five games of the season, Spears contributed 14 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and eight sacks."

"2003: During LSU's magical national championship season, Spears contributed 49 tackles, 23 quarterback pressures, 13 stops for losses, six sacks and six passes defensed to earn first-team All-SEC honors. laying against Oklahoma for the national championship in the Sugar Bowl, Spears totaled two tackles, a sack, a tackle for a loss and an interception he returned 20 yards for a touchdown to give the Tigers a 21-7 third quarter advantage in their eventual 21-14 victory."

And dont get me started on how DJ wouldve helped this team, that way you guys can spare me the homer pick.

Marcus spears was by far a better player out of college and will by far be a better pro player.

Yes the results are in. We have one year's worth of data where each played different positions within the 3-4 and even with TJ's fat butt, ADD, being lazy, having an attitude problem and a suppossed rapist he did pretty good statisically against All-World Spears in one less game:

TJ http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/413936

MS http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/552645

Since you yelled rape smell the truth - http://www.centralohio.com/ohiostate/stories/20030824/football/121480.html

ComstockLode
05-28-2006, 09:05 PM
Yes the results are in. We have one year's worth of data where each played different positions within the 3-4 and even with TJ's fat butt, ADD, being lazy, having an attitude problem and a suppossed rapist he did pretty good statisically against All-World Spears in one less game:

TJ http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/413936

MS http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/552645

Since you yelled rape smell the truth - http://www.centralohio.com/ohiostate/stories/20030824/football/121480.html

Check the OLB's stats to his side and compare, since we are talking 3-4

thunderkyss
05-28-2006, 09:08 PM
]']I dont care if your black, white or a green SOB! You are pick #16, paid millions and you dont F that up. Thunder... if he was in THIS shape and competing with Payne, Weaver and Smith for a starter position, then that is excellent. He can barely even make the THIRD team! What does that tell you.... well it tells me that he is a fat slob.


That's fine, if that's your opinion..... then just say it is your opinion. If you feel that these things indicate that he is a fat slob, then fine..... say that.

Alls I'm saying, is the coaches have not said one word about his weight.... In fact, they say physically, he is still a 1st round prospect.

"Athletically, you would take him," Karmelowicz said. "But maturity level — the way people's visions are of how they perceive things — is where he is off a little bit. That's just my opinion. It comes back to allowing yourself to say, 'Hey, I'm going to give myself permission to do this.' He needs to make a courageous step and take a chance."

This thread was started in reference to a Chronicle(sp) article which the above quote is from. I'm just not seeing were this attitude of TJ is coming from. If it is from some other article, that hasn't been brought up in this thread, please show me.

I'm not saying you are wrong about TJ...... I'm just saying I don't know where you (and others) are getting this from.

thunderkyss
05-28-2006, 09:38 PM
Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Marcus Spears, LaRoi Glover.

And these are all off of the top of my head. None of them put up any stats whatsoever, and yet are key players to their team.


I only know Glover & Spears....... Glover, because I watch New Orleans, & the Cowboys...... they cut him you know....

Spears......... What is it about Spears game that made him better than TJ??

TJ's stats were just as good as those guys, and TJ was on a much worse team.

TJ 1 sack...... Spears 1.5 sacks...... Glover only played 2 games..... Wilfork 2 sacks..... Hampton 1 sack...

TJ 23 tackles 3 assists..... Spears 19 tackles, 12 assists... Glover only played 2 games.... Wilfork 27 tackles 15 assists...... Hampton 9 tackles 13 assists..

Only Wilfork really outshines him. Just imagine what TJ will do with some real coaches.

thunderkyss
05-28-2006, 09:50 PM
Marcus spears was by far a better player out of college and will by far be a better pro player.

Yeah..... Spears looked like the no brainer pick @ DT..... I don't know what happened their.....

But his first year with the Cowboys wasn't really all that.. I was much more impressed with what Chris Canty was able to do off the bench....

23 tackles 12 assists & 2.5 sacks...... This fella is 6'7" & 295 pounds of "uh-oh I think we're in trouble now"

Kaiser Toro
05-28-2006, 09:53 PM
Yeah..... Spears looked like the no brainer pick @ DT..... I don't know what happened their.....

But his first year with the Cowboys wasn't really all that.. I was much more impressed with what Chris Canty was able to do off the bench....

23 tackles 12 assists & 2.5 sacks...... This fella is 6'7" & 295 pounds of "uh-oh I think we're in trouble now"

While we are giving disclosures I wanted Spears if we went DL as well, but was not willing to burn the place down nor do I have regrets, just concerns, at this moment.

thunderkyss
05-28-2006, 10:04 PM
Check the OLB's stats to his side and compare, since we are talking 3-4

I'm obviously looking at something wrong.

Texans' depth chart (http://www.nfl.com/teams/depthcharts/HOU)

Cowboy's depth chart (http://www.nfl.com/teams/depthcharts/DAL)

Shante Orr had 50 tackles..... 7 sacks. Demarcus Ware had 58 tackles & 8 sacks.....

DaShon Polk had 93 tackles 3.5 sacks..... Scott Shanle had 45 tackles & 1.5 sacks.......

it's hard to say how many snaps were taken..... or when did each player get those stats compared to when TJ or Spears played..... Dallas rotated those DL men as much as any team, where you can't really say who was & who was not a starter.

mexican_texan
05-28-2006, 10:21 PM
TJ's not fat, he just needs to lose that baby fat.

Am I looking at the wrong artice? From what I see, the problem is that TJ is following the rules and not going all-out in OTAs. Anyone that goes all-out is breaking OTA rules.

Smokedawg
05-29-2006, 12:15 AM
I think the main reason Spear's numbers weren't good in Dallas is because he was hurt with and akle or something. His seniors number at LSU would have been better but he torn or strained a muscle in his chest or arm i can't remember> Spears was a DE at LSU 6'4" 280 or lighter.

big homey
05-29-2006, 12:31 AM
I only know Glover & Spears....... Glover, because I watch New Orleans, & the Cowboys...... they cut him you know....

Spears......... What is it about Spears game that made him better than TJ??

TJ's stats were just as good as those guys, and TJ was on a much worse team.

TJ 1 sack...... Spears 1.5 sacks...... Glover only played 2 games..... Wilfork 2 sacks..... Hampton 1 sack...

TJ 23 tackles 3 assists..... Spears 19 tackles, 12 assists... Glover only played 2 games.... Wilfork 27 tackles 15 assists...... Hampton 9 tackles 13 assists..

Only Wilfork really outshines him. Just imagine what TJ will do with some real coaches.
He's still a FAT SLOB!!!

thegr8fan
05-29-2006, 01:09 AM
I think the WORST thing that could have happened to him was having Gary Walker being his mentor his first year in the league.........Lord I hope none of Garys attitude rubbed off on Travis. Mentaly speaking and how Gary approached practice, sometimes I think Gary just thought he could show up and everything would take of its self. Hulk75 classy cheap shot at an ex player.

course it's no wonder why YOU would not like Gary and his attitude after he chewed on David's rump on the field last year right after a game. If David showed half the fire on the field that Gary did last year we would not have been 2-14 last year, IMHO.

TJ is a tackle. they don't tend to be ballarina sized football players. I don't see that much harm in his 'gut', just his brain, from reading the article.

TEXANRED
05-29-2006, 08:19 AM
It's like that Kevin Bacon game where every actor or actress can be linked to Kevin Bacon.

:whip:
Kevin Spacey

GP
05-29-2006, 12:26 PM
Kevin Spacey

Kevin Spacey was in Se7en with Gwyneth Paltrow.

Paltrow and Jude Law together in Talented Mr. Ripley.

Jude Law and Tom Hanks together in Road To Perdition.

Tom Hanks and Kevin Bacon together in Apollo 13.

jerek
05-29-2006, 01:18 PM
Let me quote myself, from previously in this thread:

I love it. Iverson had serious game in his time. Too bad he could never get past himself. To his credit, he struggled under bad coaching and GMs at times, but ultimately Allen Iverson was Allen Iverson's worst opponent. It has been proven time and time again that right practice habits are essential to development of virtually any skill we could ever hope to acquire or improve. Military, sport, industry ... book after book has been written on application of correct training principles. Too bad that some of our brightest athletes never "get it." Or in TJ's case, our "pretty good" athlete ... I have heard it straight from the mouths of the coaching staff and player development personnel: TJ is fundamentally unmotivated (and was thrown out of practice for it last year), and until he finds the will within himself, he will never be more than an also-ran, for this or any other team.

TJ will be gone by the end of this season if that guy does not do some serious soul searching and comes up with a new will that he has never had nor displayed to this point. Bet on it.

At this point, it is about TJ and his mindset. The reason why the coaching staff "gives Carr a free pass" and TJ is on the practice squad has everything to do with mindset. Never mind how a QB's success is more closely intertwined to his teammates and playcalling ... never mind that Carr has put up decent QB numbers to Travis Johnson's 1 sack ... we've been up and down that river a thousand times. I hope that TJ turns it around as much as anyone, but hey, might as well accept that I'm more likely to be a millionaire this time next year than TJ is a Texan.

TEXANRED
05-29-2006, 01:58 PM
Kevin Spacey was in Se7en with Gwyneth Paltrow.

Paltrow and Jude Law together in Talented Mr. Ripley.

Jude Law and Tom Hanks together in Road To Perdition.

Tom Hanks and Kevin Bacon together in Apollo 13.
Impressive. Can you do it with an old dead actor, say John Wayne?

mexican_texan
05-29-2006, 02:31 PM
Impressive. Can you do it with an old dead actor, say John Wayne?
John Wayne went to USC, like Will Ferrell
Will Ferrell used to be on Saturday night live
Kevin Bacon hosted SNL

ehh?

Lucky
05-29-2006, 03:04 PM
Impressive. Can you do it with an old dead actor, say John Wayne?
John Wayne was in Brannigan with John Vernon
John Vernon (Dean Wormer) was in Animal House with Kevin Bacon

GP
05-29-2006, 03:37 PM
John Wayne was in Brannigan with John Vernon
John Vernon (Dean Wormer) was in Animal House with Kevin Bacon

John Wayne and Robert Wagner starred in The Longest Day.

Robert Wagner and Kevin Bacon starred in Wild Things.

As the game "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" goes, you can link any actor or actress to Kevin Bacon in six movies or less. It's science, so don't even try to prove it wrong.

CoastalTexan
05-29-2006, 04:59 PM
I've heard that everyone on Earth is separated by 7 degrees.

jerek
05-29-2006, 05:22 PM
I had heard of that "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" and never knew what it meant. Interesting, to say the least. Learn something new every day.

michaelm
05-30-2006, 02:40 AM
Kevin Spacey was in Se7en with Gwyneth Paltrow.

Paltrow and Jude Law together in Talented Mr. Ripley.

Jude Law and Tom Hanks together in Road To Perdition.

Tom Hanks and Kevin Bacon together in Apollo 13.

The Oracle of Bacon at Virginia:
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/oracle/

just type any name into the text box...

real
05-30-2006, 10:00 AM
The Oracle of Bacon at Virginia:
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/oracle/

just type any name into the text box...

That is crazy.... I put in Brett Favre and they had a connection....

GP
05-30-2006, 12:32 PM
I went Kevin Bacon on this thread because this thread is done.

We've gone everywhere else with this thread, such as "the race card" and the ever-popular event of dragging David Carr into the debate. So, I figured we might as well go full-tilt circus act and completely blow the doors off this thread.

And, as usual, the thread is finally taking a turn for the merrier with people losing interest. Works every time... :francis:

El Tejano
05-30-2006, 12:36 PM
That is crazy.... I put in Brett Favre and they had a connection....
That should be easy. And I am not looking. Brett Farve appeared in Something About Mary who also starred Matt Dillon who was in Wild Things which also starred Kevin Bacon.

jerek
05-30-2006, 12:50 PM
I went Kevin Bacon on this thread because this thread is done.

We've gone everywhere else with this thread, such as "the race card" and the ever-popular event of dragging David Carr into the debate. So, I figured we might as well go full-tilt circus act and completely blow the doors off this thread.

And, as usual, the thread is finally taking a turn for the merrier with people losing interest. Works every time... :francis:

I don't get it. So are you saying Travis Johnson isn't related to David Carr? :rolleyes: