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TMac48
05-23-2006, 04:28 PM
Just saw on NFL live they asked the question, "What QB's will we fear in the future?" One guy said Matt Cassel, the other said Carr. They said when he's not not on his *****, he can make every throw.

kcwilson
05-23-2006, 04:48 PM
Just saw on NFL live they asked the question, "What QB's will we fear in the future?" One guy said Matt Cassel, the other said Carr. They said when he's not not on his *****, he can make every throw.

I love Cassel's story... played maybe two snaps while at USC backing up Palmer and Leinart and gets drafted by NE in the 7th round. Great story.

Texans51
05-23-2006, 04:49 PM
he can also has the ability to run as well. he's no vick but he can pick up a third and short if needed

AtheGreat
05-23-2006, 04:56 PM
heard that same kind of thing on 790 on day before the draft. Some guys from espn asked 4 or 5 coaches who is the most qb with the most potential and all of them said Carr. Lets just hope we can keep him upright this year and prove those guys right!:redtowel:

mexican_texan
05-23-2006, 04:59 PM
As long as he's looking at his recievers and not the sky, he'll [do well]
yeah...respect feels nice.

Meloy
05-23-2006, 05:02 PM
David, psst.. David are you listening? I expect 4,000 this year.

hollywood_texan
05-23-2006, 05:03 PM
Carr makes poor decisions, that is his biggest problem.

His athletic ability is not in question and his mechanics aren't perfect but good enough.

Why would it matter if you have cannon for an arm and deadly accuracy if you can't read a defense and throw it to the right guy? Why would it matter if you are not a leader when you are the quarterback and everyone expects that from you? Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?

Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!

hot pickle
05-23-2006, 05:08 PM
David, psst.. David are you listening? I expect 4,000 this year.

give him a break, new system

3300 and ill be happy

SESupergenius
05-23-2006, 05:09 PM
Carr makes poor decisions, that is his biggest problem.

His athletic ability is not in question and his mechanics aren't perfect but good enough.

Why would it matter if you have cannon for an arm and deadly accuracy if you can't read a defense and throw it to the right guy? Why would it matter if you are not a leader when you are the quarterback and everyone expects that from you? Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?

Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!
This is funny actually, because all of this "issues" have with Carr can be solved with a good system and a good line, something he's never had.

Nawzer
05-23-2006, 05:11 PM
I've been a DC guy from day one and I defended him when half the board wanted VY. I still think he can become an elite player but as of right now I'll believe it once I see it. The same holds true for the entire team and it's players. Tired of hearing talk about potential and all that b.s.

Kaiser Toro
05-23-2006, 05:11 PM
It is hard to fathom that we are 32 million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.

jerek
05-23-2006, 05:16 PM
It is hard to fathom that we are 32 million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.

Lol. When you put it like that ... :) I still can't get past the ineptitude of the previous coaching staff and how we really don't know how the hell any of our guys can play yet ... but yeah, I can understand that frustration ...

Honest question though, and forgive me if you've stated it previously and I just don't remember ... if not DC, who would you have liked us to utilize? Abandoning Carr and going either through draft or FA ... Anyone you have in mind?

Kaiser Toro
05-23-2006, 05:19 PM
Lol. When you put it like that ... :) I still can't get past the ineptitude of the previous coaching staff and how we really don't know how the hell any of our guys can play yet ... but yeah, I can understand that frustration ...

Honest question though, and forgive me if you've stated it previously and I just don't remember ... if not DC, who would you have liked us to utilize? Abandoning Carr and going either through draft or FA ... Anyone you have in mind?

He is our QB and want to leave it at that. ;)

My feeling regarding QB's in general is that one team's garbage is one team's treasure at a very discounted rate. Super Bowl Champions do not have top tiered Qb's making top tier money at this position in the salary cap era.

nunusguy
05-23-2006, 05:23 PM
They also mentioned that Mario will be on their show tomorrow.

edo783
05-23-2006, 05:25 PM
It is hard to fathom that we are 32 million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.

You are so full of disengenouse BS in your posts. You make it sound like Carr is payed at 10X the amount for starting QBs when in fact he is at about the middle for QB that are starters and on their second contract or extensions. Add to that that you NEVER mention all the amounts that others who have contributed little or nothing are/were getting. You have made it VERY clear you don't like Carr because vertually every post you make is some sort of refference to him and his contract when all your intent on doing is to take a shot at him. If you were truly concerned, you would be contantly harping about a BUNCH of other financial leaks that are much more severe based on play time or acomplishment, but of course that doesn't match up with your agenda. Naturaly you never mention that he never had a line or coaches that could find their butts with both hands.

Grid
05-23-2006, 05:28 PM
it aint my money. 32 million or 320 million.. as long as he has the potential to be a great QB, then im gonna keep expecting him to "turn the corner".

Vinny
05-23-2006, 05:37 PM
No doubt, Carr is very well paid. One of the best paid players on this team & one of the better paid players in the entire NFL. I feel much better about Carr's prospects under Kubiak though. It's true he can make every throw and he is a physical prototype, but that was never in question with DC. Hopefully with good coaching he can turn the corner. In other news, I heard Kubiak on a 610am sound byte saying the Offense was struggling today. :francis:

Kaiser Toro
05-23-2006, 05:38 PM
You are so full of disengenouse BS in your posts. You make it sound like Carr is payed at 10X the amount for starting QBs when in fact he is at about the middle for QB that are starters and on their second contract or extensions. Add to that that you NEVER mention all the amounts that others who have contributed little or nothing are/were getting. You have made it VERY clear you don't like Carr because vertually every post you make is some sort of refference to him and his contract when all your intent on doing is to take a shot at him. If you were truly concerned, you would be contantly harping about a BUNCH of other financial leaks that are much more severe based on play time or acomplishment, but of course that doesn't match up with your agenda. Naturaly you never mention that he never had a line or coaches that could find their butts with both hands.

Your agenda is quite evident as well and I would surmise that it is you who is embedded with Carr the person more so than I. My thought process has always been about the position of QB and the value of that position when you look at Super Bowl champions.

If you continue to focus on my sarcastic digs on Carr rather than what I am saying in total then please put me on your ignore list.

MightyTExan
05-23-2006, 05:42 PM
Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket?
Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!

I'll admit, I'm a Carr homer, but that is the biggest issue right there.

Ibar_Harry
05-23-2006, 05:47 PM
I'll admit, I'm a Carr homer, but that is the biggest issue right there.

Would you stand in the pocket with the corner stone of the pocket being McKinney? I think our new probowl center will change his confidence concerning the pocket, but remember Kubiak does want him to run actually more than he did. According to the reports, if Carr sees yardage and people are covered, he's to run it.

MightyTExan
05-23-2006, 05:51 PM
Would you stand in the pocket with the corner stone of the pocket being McKinney? I think our new probowl center will change his confidence concerning the pocket, but remember Kubiak does want him to run actually more than he did. According to the reports, if Carr sees yardage and people are covered, he's to run it.

Ooops! I didn't think about that, still in 2-14 mode.:)

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-23-2006, 05:59 PM
It is hard to fathom that we are 32 million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.

It's kind of like buying a jet and never learning how to fly it and not bothering to hire someone to show you how.

It's not the jets' fault. It is yours.

Kaiser Toro
05-23-2006, 06:03 PM
It's kind of like buying a jet and never learning how to fly it and not bothering to hire someone to show you how.

It's not the jets' fault. It is yours.

That has been my point all along when you do a total cost of ownership analysis on a QB.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-23-2006, 06:11 PM
The answer to all of our offensive woes should come this season. Kubiak is a proven winner. He called the plays in Denver not Shanahan. If Jake Plummer can win in Denver, Carr can win here.

hollywood_texan
05-23-2006, 06:16 PM
This is funny actually, because all of this "issues" have with Carr can be solved with a good system and a good line, something he's never had.

Actually, a good system and line will not make Carr make better decisions. In theory, it just provides more opportunity to make the right decision. So if is unable to make the right decisions, all the amount of the opportunity isn't going to matter

I understand the point about Carr and not having enough talent around him. But, if is so good and they system and talent were so bad, wouldn't it be obvious that he was the best part of the offense? I never saw that and no one has really staked their reputation on that.

That's my concern. Other than his scrambling (actually sprinting skills) and occasional long ball or nice throw, he hasn't done anything in four years. Carr is an athlete, there is no denying that. I just wonder if is an NFL quarterback.

Also, one good mark of a great player is that he makes the players around him better and I have never seen that from Carr.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-23-2006, 06:20 PM
I hope all of you Carr haters are eating crow before mid-season. That will mean two things: the Texans are on the right track and my faith in the man has not been misplaced.

hollywood_texan
05-23-2006, 06:21 PM
The answer to all of our offensive woes should come this season. Kubiak is a proven winner. He called the plays in Denver not Shanahan. If Jake Plummer can win in Denver, Carr can win here.

I believe Shanahan called the plays last year. I just remember reading or hearing that. Tried to find it on the web somewhere. Let me know your source on that please. I don't keep up with the Broncos innerworkings.

As for the Plummer and Carr comparison. I agree with you there.

rmartin65
05-23-2006, 06:23 PM
I agree with the guy who said Carr. Carr has a string arm, obviously tough, and fairly mobile. Carr was a #1 pick for a reason(though there have been plenty of #1's that did nothing) and has a chance to prove his stuff this year.

Kaiser Toro
05-23-2006, 06:24 PM
I hope all of you Carr haters are eating crow before mid-season. That will mean two things: the Texans are on the right track and my faith in the man has not been misplaced.

We have been waiting for that crow for four years. I, like many, am dying to eat it.

infantrycak
05-23-2006, 06:33 PM
Super Bowl Champions do not have top tiered Qb's making top tier money at this position in the salary cap era.

That isn't even close to accurate.

Big Ben (2005) is a top half 1st round draft pick--not as much as Carr but highly paid and due soon for a big renegotiation.
Tom Brady (he of three rings--2004, 2003, 2001) is a top paid QB.
Kurt Warner (1999) was well paid when he won.
John Elway (1998, 1997)--top paid guy.
Brett Favre (1996)--top paid guy.
Troy Aikman (1995)--top paid guy.
Steve Young (1994)--top paid guy.

Seems to me Dilfer and Johnson are contrary to the great weight of the evidence.

hollywood_texan
05-23-2006, 06:40 PM
That isn't even close to accurate.

Big Ben (2005) is a top half 1st round draft pick--not as much as Carr but highly paid and due soon for a big renegotiation.
Tom Brady (he of three rings--2004, 2003, 2001) is a top paid QB.
Kurt Warner (1999) was well paid when he won.
John Elway (1998, 1997)--top paid guy.
Brett Favre (1996)--top paid guy.
Troy Aikman (1995)--top paid guy.
Steve Young (1994)--top paid guy.

Seems to me Dilfer and Johnson are contrary to the great weight of the evidence.

I don't think Brady was paid top tier money for the first two Super Bowls, he proved himself first. As for Big Ben, paid according to rookie rates, can't get around that.

Who are the other quarterbacks, Dilfer and Johnson come to mind as journymen with Super Bowl rings in this millenium.

You are reaching on the guys in the 90s. That era is gone. Also, I believe Warner won a ring under a much smaller contract, if you recall he was the backup to Trent Green who had season ending injury in the preseason the year they made the Super Bowl run.

I think that is his point. You can win the Super Bowl with a minimal quarterback or dollars. By the way, Big Ben doesn't have great numbers, he just fits really well in a very good system with a strong defense. Which is what looks like what Kubiak is trying to develop.

Kaiser Toro
05-23-2006, 06:42 PM
That isn't even close to accurate.

Big Ben (2005) is a top half 1st round draft pick--not as much as Carr but highly paid and due soon for a big renegotiation.
Tom Brady (he of three rings--2004, 2003, 2001) is a top paid QB.
Kurt Warner (1999) was well paid when he won.
John Elway (1998, 1997)--top paid guy.
Brett Favre (1996)--top paid guy.
Troy Aikman (1995)--top paid guy.
Steve Young (1994)--top paid guy.

Seems to me Dilfer and Johnson are contrary to the great weight of the evidence.

Is and was are two different terms. Big Ben is still not seeing top tier money. Brady was not seeing top tier money until 2005. Warner was not seeing big money until after their Super Bowl win. Elway, Favre, Aikman and Young were at the beginning of the salary cap era and are not good samples of the model as teams were given grace periods to get their cap in line for the model that is prevalent today.

Second Honeymoon
05-23-2006, 06:47 PM
It is hard to fathom that we are 32 million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.

He speaks the truth. Carr has been a complete failure and when you are still talking about potential on a guy in his 5th year, you know there is something wrong. Well one of these days a lot of the more 'homerish' posters will have to finally take their Teen Beat picture of David Carr out of their locker at high school, erase their David Carr in Speedos wallpaper out of their cellphone, and start praising players that actually produce and are winners, not just players that are cute and have a squeaky clean image.

p.s. saw the NFL Network feature on Mario. That was the fastest I have ever seen a DL move since the early years of Kearse. Dude is a freak, I just hope he brings his lunchpail every day and not just when we play Duke and Wake Forest..oh wait he doesnt play them anymore...STEP UP MARIO AND YOU WILL BE A HERO IN THIS TOWN!!

doug from the woodlands

Hulk75
05-23-2006, 06:59 PM
Carr makes poor decisions, that is his biggest problem.

His athletic ability is not in question and his mechanics aren't perfect but good enough.

Why would it matter if you have cannon for an arm and deadly accuracy if you can't read a defense and throw it to the right guy? Why would it matter if you are not a leader when you are the quarterback and everyone expects that from you? Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?

Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!
Its not mental, I am not going to go through this again for the 50 time.

People bring up the same stuff over and over, bring logic to your questions,

WHY he does not step up=Cause his line sucked, yes it did.

Cant read a Defense?= How do you know that, you probably have no idea what your looking at or what his PROGRESSIONS are anyways.

Not a leader?= How about a guy that takes hit after hit after hit. David Carr leads by his play WHICH HAS SUFFERED DO TO THE SCHEME, that did not benifet anyone but the Running Back.

Throwing the ball away?=How many times would you like him to do that cause last year it would have been a lot and for the last time he ran out of bounds MAYBE 4 times last year for a sack, 4, so I dont want to here about it anymore cause your stretching it.

Question for you do you think Kubiak is an idiot and Darren Woodson said he is going to put FEAR in defenses if they can keep him upright, he has played against him, I think they both know how good Carr can be.

TexanFan881
05-23-2006, 07:12 PM
With everything we've done in the offseason and getting and getting a super bowl champion head coach (which team had a great OL) to coach the OL and bringing in weapons like Putzier, Moulds, and Cook, who are all three going to be effective targets for Carr in which he didn't have before. This year should be extremely exciting for our team and our offense.

TexansLucky13
05-23-2006, 07:23 PM
Tom Brady (he of three rings--2004, 2003, 2001) is a top paid QB.


That is completely inaccurate! Check your sources before you post them, dude. Belichick would NEVER allow any of his players to control the salary cap like Manning does. The fact is, Brady was still on contract for the first two Super Bowl wins, and even took a pay reduction so that Belichick could hold onto guys like McGinest, Givens, Branch, Law and Bruschi. Brady was not considered a top-rate QB out of college, he was taken in the late rounds and he played under Bledsoe until he got injured. The fact is, the thing that makes Brady so great is that he is a quality talent, a clutch player, a leader and he doesn't demand top dollar. The Patriots are lucky to have him.

Carr has the talent. Kubiak will show him the way.

Double Barrel
05-23-2006, 07:55 PM
I believe Shanahan called the plays last year. I just remember reading or hearing that. Tried to find it on the web somewhere. Let me know your source on that please. I don't keep up with the Broncos innerworkings.

Actually, I've read several places that Kubiak has called the offensive plays in Denver for quite awhile. I'll try to find the most important one, which is a quote from Shanahan, for you.

But here's a blurb from Troy Aikman at NFL.com:

Gary Kubiak, Broncos: He's been mentioned for a number of jobs over the years, and rightfully so. In working closely with Shanahan, he's learned from a guy whom I consider to be one of the top five coaches in the NFL. Kubiak is the guy calling the plays in Denver, thus he's gotten outside of Shanahan's shadow in that respect. He's turned down some chances to become a head coach, and I'm sure he'll do well when the time comes.

Source (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7999677)

Here's another source, the Houston Chronicle (John McClain):

Shanahan learned how to delegate. For the last six years, he let Kubiak call plays.

Source (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/3620084.html)

***edit: Found it!

Early in the week, Spurrier resorted to asking advice from another head coach, Denver Broncos’ Mike Shanahan. Spurrier, portrayed by many as arrogant when it comes to his offense, wanted to know how Shanahan handled play-calling duties with Broncos’ offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak.

When Shanahan told Spurrier that the Broncos immediately won two Super Bowls when Kubiak took over calling plays, the second-year Redskins’ coach didn’t need any more convincing.

Source (http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/031111/Sports_coles.asp)

infantrycak
05-23-2006, 08:09 PM
That is completely inaccurate! Check your sources before you post them, dude.

Ummm, practice what you preach dude. Brady played in the first SB under his rookie contract. He then signed a much bigger contract. That contract was below market but still very significant. After the 2nd SB win he signed another yet bigger contract.

In any event, it really doesn't matter what the timing is. Brady, Warner, Big Ben all are QB's who have received top pay. Contrary to the idea that any cheap slub can carry you to a SB, even in the salary cap era, the majority of SB winning QB's are of the variety to command top salaries. By the way, what happened to the cheap slub QB's Dilfer and Brad Johnson--they were very shortly looking for work despite having won. And the attempt to eliminate Aikman for his 3rd SB, Favre and Elway is weak--those are salary cap era winners. It is clear in any event that NFL GM's and coaches do not agree with KT's cheap QB theory.

hollywood_texan
05-23-2006, 08:16 PM
Its not mental, I am not going to go through this again for the 50 time. You did go through it again. :tease:

People bring up the same stuff over and over, bring logic to your questions, What question didn't have logic?

WHY he does not step up=Cause his line sucked, yes it did. From a logic perspective, you state Carr cannot stepup becuase his line sucked. Newflash, Carr's play isn't dependent on anyone else's. It is a team sport but guys have performed and succeeded with less.

Cant read a Defense?= How do you know that, you probably have no idea what your looking at or what his PROGRESSIONS are anyways. I don't have to be able to read defense, Carr does. And if he could, why did he always dump off the to Dominick every other pass play? Besides, he stated he didn't review game film until late in the season because he wasn't really allowed to audible.

Not a leader?= How about a guy that takes hit after hit after hit. David Carr leads by his play WHICH HAS SUFFERED DO TO THE SCHEME, that did not benifet anyone but the Running Back. This is logical, take hit after hit and you are a leader. I don't think it works that way.

Throwing the ball away?=How many times would you like him to do that cause last year it would have been a lot and for the last time he ran out of bounds MAYBE 4 times last year for a sack, 4, so I dont want to here about it anymore cause your stretching it. You say only 4 times, he was sacked about 50 times, so that is almost 10% of his sacks. He is a paid professional and should never make that mistake. In addition, against Indy last year at home, while going for a 2-point conversion, he threw the ball away in the back of end zone when he should have threaded because an interception more than likely would have been meaningless. If has to throw it away every time, fine.

Question for you do you think Kubiak is an idiot and Darren Woodson said he is going to put FEAR in defenses if they can keep him upright, he has played against him, I think they both know how good Carr can be. I don't think Kubiak is an idiot. Where in my post or in my logic did you come up with that? You need to relax dude. As for defenses fearing David Carr, I highly doubt it. The talent level is too close and these guys train all year to be afraid of anyone.

Carr has not proven that he is even a good quarterback yet, and he is going to get year 5 to prove it. You can make up all sorts of reasons, but that is just a fact. People in life and in the game of football have succeeded with less than what David Carr has had in his first 4 years as a Texan.

Who cares about Carr anyway? All the Texans need are a strong defense and a good running game, and the rest will take care of itself. Quarterbacks of today don't need to really win games as much as they don't need to lose them to go to the Super Bowl.

Oh, and it is mental for David Carr. Even the guys that say he is going to be successful say he can't be shellshocked. I think shellshocked is a mental issue.

Kaiser Toro
05-23-2006, 08:18 PM
It is clear in any event that NFL GM's and coaches do not agree with KT's cheap QB theory.

Yes it is very clear. ;)

I never said cheap. I think value is the operable word here. :)

tsip
05-23-2006, 08:32 PM
it aint my money. 32 million or 320 million.. as long as he has the potential to be a great QB, then im gonna keep expecting him to "turn the corner".


...when?...

aj.
05-23-2006, 08:34 PM
Hopefully this will be the last year of this inane debate.

If Carr performs well this year, hooray for us. If he doesn't, it's time to cut the losses and go in a different direction.

edo783
05-23-2006, 08:35 PM
Yes it is very clear. ;)

I never said cheap. I think value is the operable word here. :)

Based on your financial management model, you would start a new manufacturing line by leasing the best pick & place machine available and then feeding it old, used and broken parts to make a product with. Then you get P.O.ed that the product sucks, so your crack management team decides to run the boards through it backwards to improve the throughput. Guess what, that sucked even more. So, when the maintenance fee (Bonus) comes due, you would either not pay it or want to low ball it and in either case you would get the middle finger salute as they pull the machine out of production. Then you would go and get some cheap machine and keep on running. Still crap being out put, but at least now itís cheap crap which seems like what you want us to believe is what you want. (we know better, ya just donít like the machine so you dream up things to whine about) Of course you would blame the top line machine for not putting out quality products, heck ya paid a lot for it so it should be able to take crap parts and stupid management and turn out a quality product anyway.
A couple of things to ponder:
1. Our starting number 2 receiver is now out with the trash.
2. Our starting #3 receiver is now out with the trash.
3. Never really had a TE. (itís how you beat the cover two, and guess what, we never were able to)
4. The guy who was our starting LT is now out with the trash
5. Our starting RT will likely be out with the trash in the next couple of weeks
6. A center so bad he was replaced and moved to another position.
7. Our starting RG/RT canít stay healthy for more than Ĺ a season.
8. Our coaching staff so bad that most havenít been picked up even at lower positions than they held here.

Yup, themís be some quality players on the offense and a real crack management team. For the life of me, I canít see why Carr couldnít make us contenders with ALL of that quality to work with. Is Carr perfectÖ.heck no, but show me ANY player, QB or otherwise that doesnít have some sort of holes in his game. Itís interesting that those who judge players for a living think Carrís the real deal, but some know nothing fans just absolutely know he is not worth paying to play. PersonallyÖ.I will follow what the professional evaluators say and ignore the disingenuous and agenda driven ranting of a fan who is intent on creating what would amount to an urban legend by constantly repeating the same erroneous drivel that some folks will just pick up and repeat without looking at what is being said and what is actually behind the statements. If Carr gets the NFL standard of 3.5 to 4.5 seconds to get rid of the ball 85% of the time, on a consistent basis so that he can trust what he will be getting, and the running game is at least average and if he canít put some solid numbers up, then kick him to the curb and move on. Until you stop feeding the machine broken and used parts, you donít replace the best that was available at the time you got it, because it isnít proven to be broken.

Kaiser Toro
05-23-2006, 08:45 PM
Based on your financial management model, you would start a new manufacturing line by leasing the best pick & place machine available and then feeding it old, used and broken parts to make a product with. Then you get P.O.ed that the product sucks, so your crack management team decides to run the boards through it backwards to improve the throughput. Guess what, that sucked even more. So, when the maintenance fee (Bonus) comes due, you would either not pay it or want to low ball it and in either case you would get the middle finger salute as they pull the machine out of production. Then you would go and get some cheap machine and keep on running. Still crap being out put, but at least now it’s cheap crap which seems like what you want us to believe is what you want. (we know better, ya just don’t like the machine so you dream up things to whine about) Of course you would blame the top line machine for not putting out quality products, heck ya paid a lot for it so it should be able to take crap parts and stupid management and turn out a quality product anyway.
A couple of things to ponder:
1. Our starting number 2 receiver is now out with the trash.
2. Our starting #3 receiver is now out with the trash.
3. Never really had a TE. (it’s how you beat the cover two, and guess what, we never were able to)
4. The guy who was our starting LT is now out with the trash
5. Our starting RT will likely be out with the trash in the next couple of weeks
6. A center so bad he was replaced and moved to another position.
7. Our starting RG/RT can’t stay healthy for more than Ĺ a season.
8. Our coaching staff so bad that most haven’t been picked up even at lower positions than they held here.

Yup, them’s be some quality players on the offense and a real crack management team. For the life of me, I can’t see why Carr couldn’t make us contenders with ALL of that quality to work with. Is Carr perfect….heck no, but show me ANY player, QB or otherwise that doesn’t have some sort of holes in his game. It’s interesting that those who judge players for a living think Carr’s the real deal, but some know nothing fans just absolutely know he is not worth paying to play. Personally….I will follow what the professional evaluators say and ignore the disingenuous and agenda driven ranting of a fan who is intent on creating what would amount to an urban legend by constantly repeating the same erroneous drivel that some folks will just pick up and repeat without looking at what is being said and what is actually behind the statements. If Carr gets the NFL standard of 3.5 to 4.5 seconds to get rid of the ball 85% of the time, on a consistent basis so that he can trust what he will be getting, and the running game is at least average and if he can’t put some solid numbers up, then kick him to the curb and move on. Until you stop feeding the machine broken and used parts, you don’t replace the best that was available at the time you got it, because it isn’t proven to be broken.


Good stuff and agree with mostly everything here. The only issue I have is that the leadership went with a proprietary machine at the onset and not a standards based platform which would have solved many of your parts and maintenance issues on the back end. :)

hollywood_texan
05-23-2006, 08:51 PM
Hopefully this will be the last year of this inane debate.

If Carr performs well this year, hooray for us. If he doesn't, it's time to cut the losses and go in a different direction.

Agreed, but I think this thing is going to be somewhere in the middle at the end of next season.

My prediction, he won't blow the doors off (silence all critics) and will still leave a lot of doubt (however, there will still be enough hope that he can do better). Then you get into the whole discussion of who is going to replace him. We might just be better off keeping him than having some musical chairs at quarterback like Miami or anywhere else. Brad Johnson back at Minnesota, Aaron Brooks in Oakland, and Kerry Collins will probably play somewhere.

We just need a really strong defense and a good running game and put Carr in a position to not lose a game.

Hervoyel
05-23-2006, 11:16 PM
It is hard to fathom that we are 32 million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.


I blame the previous coaching staff for that. David Carr isn't the only player out there that we don't know nearly enough about and I'm not talking about Bennie Joppru. In his case there's a good explanation for why we know almost nothing about him.

Lucky
05-23-2006, 11:59 PM
Based on your financial management model, you would start a new manufacturing line by leasing the best pick & place machine available and then feeding it old, used and broken parts to make a product with.
Back when I was in the semiconductor industry, that was the Adept Cartesian Robot. Accurate to a half a micron when placing a glass slide. But who places glass slides? Oh, it's another David Carr thread...

My position on Carr is the same as it's always been. Give the guy average protection, just average, and then we can see what he's got. Look, I was a pro-Reggie guy. But if Carr is a winning QB, he shouldn't need a perfect part like a Reggie Bush. A Domanick Davis that's a little worn around the edges should work just fine. Just take the lens cap off the camera so the guy can read the fiducials (how's that for a weird, inside reference?).

Hulk75
05-24-2006, 12:04 AM
You did go through it again. :tease:

What question didn't have logic?

From a logic perspective, you state Carr cannot stepup becuase his line sucked. Newflash, Carr's play isn't dependent on anyone else's. It is a team sport but guys have performed and succeeded with less.

I don't have to be able to read defense, Carr does. And if he could, why did he always dump off the to Dominick every other pass play? Besides, he stated he didn't review game film until late in the season because he wasn't really allowed to audible.

This is logical, take hit after hit and you are a leader. I don't think it works that way.

You say only 4 times, he was sacked about 50 times, so that is almost 10% of his sacks. He is a paid professional and should never make that mistake. In addition, against Indy last year at home, while going for a 2-point conversion, he threw the ball away in the back of end zone when he should have threaded because an interception more than likely would have been meaningless. If has to throw it away every time, fine.

I don't think Kubiak is an idiot. Where in my post or in my logic did you come up with that? You need to relax dude. As for defenses fearing David Carr, I highly doubt it. The talent level is too close and these guys train all year to be afraid of anyone.

Carr has not proven that he is even a good quarterback yet, and he is going to get year 5 to prove it. You can make up all sorts of reasons, but that is just a fact. People in life and in the game of football have succeeded with less than what David Carr has had in his first 4 years as a Texan.
Who cares about Carr anyway? All the Texans need are a strong defense and a good running game, and the rest will take care of itself. Quarterbacks of today don't need to really win games as much as they don't need to lose them to go to the Super Bowl.

Oh, and it is mental for David Carr. Even the guys that say he is going to be successful say he can't be shellshocked. I think shellshocked is a mental issue.
Wow........
Your right he sucks. :)

Lucky
05-24-2006, 12:21 AM
People in life and in the game of football have succeeded with less than what David Carr has had in his first 4 years as a Texan.
I don't know. In life, Carr seems to be pretty successful. Money, family, great job. Looks pretty good from here.

In the game of football, who has succeeded with less than what David Carr has had to work with? Really, I'd like to know.

TexansLucky13
05-24-2006, 12:23 AM
I do agree with the general idea that QBs are not altogether "necessary" for a SB win. Don't get me wrong... I would expect the SB win to go to the team that has a stronger QB. But look at the Steelers v. Seahawks..... Rottenburger played like a rookie (which he is), but his youth and leadership quality took up the slack. A guy like Manning... who gets what he wants and pretty much runs the horseshoes... can't do what an above-average, leadership caliber QB can. Peyton just needs to man up! (Or man down, if you consider the size of his salary).

In the game of football, who has succeeded with less than what David Carr has had to work with? Really, I'd like to know.

I agree. And for those who say that we "could have taken Harrington" with the 1st pick instead of Carr.... what has Joey done that is so much better than David? I have mentioned it before.... the only difference, as of this offseason by the statbook, is sacks! They both have 10,000 yards and a basket full of TDs and INTs. Harrington's rating is slightly higher... but look what Carr has had to deal with here! We really do have a rare talent in David.... and he will sprout under Kubiaks vision.

Double Barrel
05-24-2006, 12:38 AM
Pretty much every player and coach, save a few, sucked on our team last year. Reason #1 we were a pathetic 2-14. EVERYONE on this team has something to prove to us fans, as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, I think we've got a lot of potential with this 2006 team, but there's that word again...the "P" word we keep hearing over and over all these years.

Anyway, my biggest fear with Carr...is if he's shell-shocked or not. Our new coaches admitted something like 20 of his sacks were self-induced last season. My concern is that the constant beating he's taken for the first four years of his pro career have taken their toll. Not necessarily on his physical being, but in his head and how he reacts under pressure. That kind of conditioning makes you wonder if he'll ever trust a line again.

Hopefully so, of course, because I want our QB to achieve great things. But I'm still a little worried until he can prove otherwise.

TK_Gamer
05-24-2006, 12:51 AM
just my 2 cents on QB's . I honestly believe the system makes the QB the QB doesn't make the system. look at trent green, is he a superstar QB? I don't think so, he cant throw the ball accurately past 15 yards, he also has problems with when to take a sack and when to throw it away. but why is he rated so high? cuz the system he plays in gives him options, targets. gonzales is one sweet target, so was priest holmes out of the backfield. now add in an offensive line that at least had half quality players, enough to pivot your QB off of. so take a guy like carr with his physical abilities and give him a system and a line like the chiefs had, and see what happens.

Texans_Chick
05-24-2006, 12:53 AM
Hopefully this will be the last year of this inane debate.

If Carr performs well this year, hooray for us. If he doesn't, it's time to cut the losses and go in a different direction.


This is what I think when I see yet another Carr is good no he sucks thread, especially when we haven't even seen him play under a new offense-friendly coach:

http://web.syr.edu/~adblanda/Oh%20No%2011-07-02.jpg

mexican_texan
05-24-2006, 12:59 AM
This is what I think when I see yet another Carr is good no he sucks thread, especially when we haven't even seen him play under a new offense-friendly coach:

http://web.syr.edu/~adblanda/Oh%20No%2011-07-02.jpg
I think it would by sympathy, not empathy...I would hope.:shoot:

Ibar_Harry
05-24-2006, 01:04 AM
This is what I think when I see yet another Carr is good no he sucks thread, especially when we haven't even seen him play under a new offense-friendly coach:

http://web.syr.edu/~adblanda/Oh%20No%2011-07-02.jpg

Must be a Defensive End....

Vinny
05-24-2006, 02:52 AM
? i thought McNair was the one signing the checks?I often refer to the team in terms of 'we' and 'us' as well. I don't think that Bob has a problem with that.

LBC_Justin
05-24-2006, 03:20 AM
Carr makes poor decisions, that is his biggest problem.

His athletic ability is not in question and his mechanics aren't perfect but good enough.

Why would it matter if you have cannon for an arm and deadly accuracy if you can't read a defense and throw it to the right guy? Why would it matter if you are not a leader when you are the quarterback and everyone expects that from you? Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?

Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!ummm There was an article on espn about a year ago, it mapped Mental Mistakes by QB's and the had Carr as the Third best QB in the NFL at not making mistakes. Wish I could find a link.

Vinny
05-24-2006, 03:45 AM
ummm There was an article on espn about a year ago, it mapped Mental Mistakes by QB's and the had Carr as the Third best QB in the NFL at not making mistakes. Wish I could find a link.I read it and I thought it was poorly done and made huge leaps of logic as Carr struggled at the end of 2004 and kept struggling deep into 2005 as further proof how misguided it was. Carr was awful for a good bit of time the last two years right before and after that article. I will say that I've been a big Carr cynic for a while now but I do think that we will see Carr play with more confidence this year as he gets better coaching in a scheme that isn't stuck in the 70's.

LBC_Justin
05-24-2006, 04:23 AM
? i thought McNair was the one signing the checks?
I have to agree with the Vinny on this one.

I see no problem with people saying "We" or "Us" when refering to a football team.
The fans are the team. Without the fans the NFL is NOTHING. Sadly many fans are much more emotionally invested in a team than many of the players on that team.

In fact every free agency you learn real quickly how many of the players are playing for Ben Franklin and not out of loyalty.(not that I blame them, they got to get theirs while the getting is good.)

LBC_Justin
05-24-2006, 04:44 AM
I read it and I thought it was poorly done and made huge leaps of logic as Carr struggled at the end of 2004 and kept struggling deep into 2005 as further proof how misguided it was. Carr was awful for a good bit of time the last two years right before and after that article.I will not argue with you that there certainly were some "leaps in logic" but that is almost always the case when trying to measure something abstract like "Decision Making" skills. But none the less I actually found the article facinating considering the guy looked at every snap from every QB and had a point system and weighted each mistake. Throwing into double or triple coverage, even stupid passes where the reciever saved the QB's butt were counted against the QB, while a perfect pass but the reciever tips a very catchable ball and it is an INT were not counted against the QB. In my opinion it really got beyond the stats down to what was really happening. I am not a huge Carr fan but I think the guy has had some huge hurdles thrown in front of him. Not saying he is going to light it up this year. Although I would LOVE to see that. If I am not mistaken the article had Peyton Manning at #2 and Byron Leftwich at #2.

I have heard on more than one occasion that if you grab a stop watch, and you time how long it takes the pocket to close on David Carr and how long it takes before he is being harassed that it is crazy how he has much less time to decide what to do, compared to the other QB's in this league. (I have still yet to see a single person who doesn't like David Carr argue against this very critical point.) I have DirecTV and watched almost EVERY SINGLE NFL game last season(Texans games twice) thanks to Tivo and NFL Shortcut which condensed each game down to 20-25 minutes. When you watch the games back-to-back you really really see how little time Carr has compared to other QB's. Scary actually. (not as scary as how pathetic our pass rush was last year. LOL)

Kind of reminds me of the game Tetris, everyone is freaking awesome until the blocks start falling really fast. Guys like Peyton Manning and Big Ben live in the world of slow falling blocks, Carr is playing on level 20 with only a moment to decide what the heck to do before he gets smashed.

Vinny
05-24-2006, 04:52 AM
I have heard on more than one occasion that if you grab a stop watch, and you time how long it takes the pocket to close on David Carr and how long it takes before he is being harassed that it is crazy how he has much less time to decide what to do, compared to the other QB's in this league. (I have still yet to see a single person who doesn't like David Carr argue against this very critical point.) I have DirecTV and watched almost EVERY SINGLE NFL game last season(Texans games twice) thanks to Tivo and NFL Shortcut which condensed each game down to 20-25 minutes. When you watch the games back-to-back you really really see how little time Carr has compared to other QB's. Scary actually. (not as scary as how pathetic our pass rush was last year. LOL) I really don't see it like that at all and I do have all the games taped and actually watch them in slow motion....back and forth, up and down. Carr had no time at times...but he had plenty of time at other times. You just can't make a blanket statement like you made unless you are throwing out a total Carr-homer pov. Our line often played much better than portrayed.

HOOK'EM
05-24-2006, 06:58 AM
..............starting the probowl 06'.

mancunian
05-24-2006, 08:05 AM
Actually, a good system and line will not make Carr make better decisions. In theory, it just provides more opportunity to make the right decision. So if is unable to make the right decisions, all the amount of the opportunity isn't going to matter

I agree it will give more time to make the right decision. If your line aint protecting you and you have to get rid of the ball or get sacked then you will be seen to be making more "bad" decisions.

Buffi2
05-24-2006, 08:25 AM
From Connor J. Byrne whom I don't think I know, but I like his attitude.....

Still not convinced the 26-year-old Carr will do big things next season? Well, just look at his rare physical tools. The 6-3, 220-pounder has terrific size for the position, great athleticism-as evidenced by his 4.8 career yards per carry average, and most importantly, one of the best arms in the business. When given time, Carr's been outstanding. Think of him as a young baseball pitching prospect that just needs to shore up a few things before greatness. Carr has shored those things up, and he seems primed for a big future.

So far, Carr hasn't made many believers, but in due time, he will. Patience is a virtue, Texans fans. You've been patient for four years. Don't panic, though. Positive results will soon come soaring in.

Link...http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2006/05/david-carr-texans240506.html

TexanFan881
05-24-2006, 08:35 AM
So far, Carr hasn't made many believers, but in due time, he will. Patience is a virtue, Texans fans. You've been patient for four years. Don't panic, though. Positive results will soon come soaring in.

Wow, hopefully he's right. It would be about time. Eric Moulds and AJ should catch a lot of passes this year.

Cjeremy635
05-24-2006, 08:37 AM
I really don't see it like that at all and I do have all the games taped and actually watch them in slow motion....back and forth, up and down. Carr had no time at times...but he had plenty of time at other times. You just can't make a blanket statement like you made unless you are throwing out a total Carr-homer pov. Our line often played much better than portrayed.


Well Vinny, there's the problem. It looks like he has more time because it's in SLOW MOTION...come on man, I expected way more from a moderator.:whip:

Kaiser Toro
05-24-2006, 08:49 AM
? i thought McNair was the one signing the checks?

69,000 fans with x number of sponsors multiplied by 10 home games equals a revenue stream that can be used for operating expenses. Yes I am an investor and a fan, therefore we is appropriate in my opinion.

BigBull17
05-24-2006, 08:57 AM
That isn't even close to accurate.

Big Ben (2005) is a top half 1st round draft pick--not as much as Carr but highly paid and due soon for a big renegotiation.
Tom Brady (he of three rings--2004, 2003, 2001) is a top paid QB.
Kurt Warner (1999) was well paid when he won.
John Elway (1998, 1997)--top paid guy.
Brett Favre (1996)--top paid guy.
Troy Aikman (1995)--top paid guy.
Steve Young (1994)--top paid guy.

Seems to me Dilfer and Johnson are contrary to the great weight of the evidence.

Warner came in to that season as a third string QB and was paid accordingly. Remember thats what made him the story of the year.

infantrycak
05-24-2006, 09:05 AM
Warner came in to that season as a third string QB and was paid accordingly. Remember thats what made him the story of the year.

The point isn't the timing of when they get paid, it is whether you win SB's with QB's capable of commanding top tier money or not. In general the answer is you do not win SB's without a QB who can command top tier money. The only 2 QB's who have won a SB in the last 12 years and not made top money at some point are Dilfer and Brad Johnson. Both their teams looked very quickly to replace them despite SB victories. Carr definitely needs to provide value to his contract (as does every player as edo points out), but the idea that teams do not need to spend money at QB is specious.

Double Barrel
05-24-2006, 10:14 AM
? i thought McNair was the one signing the checks?

Yes, Bob signs the checks to the players, but WE sign our checks to Bob. :ok:

SESupergenius
05-24-2006, 10:58 AM
I just keep looking back at the game where Carr was given total control of the offense in the 1st offense and we score 20, then Pendry takes over and we gain squat. This and other intangibles make me believe that the offense around Carr was terrible, and as such it is being revamped. Steve Young was in a horrible offense with the Bucs, same with Plummer when was with the Cardinals. Once these QB's got into good West Coast offenses then did well. Carr coming from Fresno State, which if I recollect correctly was a West Coast offense, seems to be a better fit there than than in Palmers/Pendry's systems. It's a wait and see thing, but to say that we still don't know what we have in Carr is analogous to Tampa Bay not knowing what Young could do with an good offense. Some QB's just need the right system, and it looks like Kubiaks is one of the better ones.

real
05-24-2006, 11:00 AM
](I have still yet to see a single person who doesn't like David Carr argue against this very critical point.)[/B] I have DirecTV and watched almost EVERY SINGLE NFL game last season...you watch the games back-to-back you really really see how little time Carr has compared to other QB's. ... Guys like Peyton Manning and Big Ben live in the world of slow falling blocks, Carr is playing on level 20 with only a moment to decide what the heck to do before he gets smashed.

It is very true that Carr has played behind a bad oline....Everyone knows that....But if you have not heard anyone argue against the fact that he has limited time to throw I'll be the first....

1) Carr causes some of his own sacks...In fact he probably caused more than the average QB just because he had no faith in his o-line
2) I have rarely seen Carr stand in the face of pressure and deliver a good ball, while getting hit or chased down, or while someone has a hand on him most of the time it's a sack or incomplete pass
3) Carr has a minimum of 5 guys blocking for him at a time...its not like hes out there by himself...and it's not like other QB's are out there with soooo much more time..Carr doesn't have ample time but c'mon...2-12....He had a part in that...

I'm not a David Carr hater by any means...he just hasn't impressed me with his play. I don't look at him and say "Man if he only had a good line, Look out!!" No...I say "well lets give him a good line and see what he can do"....I hope David can prove himself this yr. because if he does poorly again there will be a lot of people calling for his head

Chance_C
05-24-2006, 11:06 AM
I've always liked David Carr. I generally tend to give people a little more time before I throw them under the bus. However much I like David Carr really doesn't matter anymore. It's time to put up or shut up, and I want him to put up really bad. He's a good guy and I want to see him be successful, but if he does not improve this year, I don't think he will. Here is his best oppurtunity he has had to be successful. I don't think anyone can argue that. From his standpoint, I would imagine that he is ready to go big time. I bet he's genuinely excited to have Kubiak and his system here. I bet he's genuinely excited for the revamped (hopefully) offensive line, and the new weapons he has in Putzier and Moulds. I think his confidence will really take off if he has time and is successful (even minimally) early in the year. Good luck David, I like to see good people succeed.

real
05-24-2006, 11:17 AM
It's a wait and see thing, but to say that we still don't know what we have in Carr is analogous to Tampa Bay not knowing what Young could do with an good offense. Some QB's just need the right system, and it looks like Kubiaks is one of the better ones.

Not analogous...but it may be synonomous...IMO, Carr is not Steve Young...He is David Carr...I like everyone's optimism about him though...:)

nunusguy
05-24-2006, 12:36 PM
I feel much better about Carr's prospects under Kubiak though. It's true he can make every throw and he is a physical prototype, but that was never in question with DC. Hopefully with good coaching he can turn the corner.
Coming from one of Carr's harsher critics in these parts, that's a very fair and
even-handed appraisal of the Texans QB. And its hopeful.

LBC_Justin
05-24-2006, 12:43 PM
I really don't see it like that at all and I do have all the games taped and actually watch them in slow motion....back and forth, up and down. Carr had no time at times...but he had plenty of time at other times. You just can't make a blanket statement like you made unless you are throwing out a total Carr-homer pov. Our line often played much better than portrayed.I wasn't making a blanket statment.

On average Carr has far less time to throw than other QBs in the NFL. It is a fact.
Don't believe me. Grab your VCR and a stop watch.

Your right there are times when he does have time to throw and he doesn't make the play. But he is typically under so much pressure that it would be very hard for any QB to get into a groove in his situation.

I am no Carr homer. (Don't let the California address fool you, I have zero emotional stake in this guy. I am a Longhorn.)

LBC_Justin
05-24-2006, 12:53 PM
It is very true that Carr has played behind a bad oline....Everyone knows that....But if you have not heard anyone argue against the fact that he has limited time to throw I'll be the first....

1) Carr causes some of his own sacks...In fact he probably caused more than the average QB just because he had no faith in his o-line
2) I have rarely seen Carr stand in the face of pressure and deliver a good ball, while getting hit or chased down, or while someone has a hand on him most of the time it's a sack or incomplete pass
3) Carr has a minimum of 5 guys blocking for him at a time...its not like hes out there by himself...and it's not like other QB's are out there with soooo much more time..Carr doesn't have ample time but c'mon...2-12....He had a part in that...

I'm not a David Carr hater by any means...he just hasn't impressed me with his play. I don't look at him and say "Man if he only had a good line, Look out!!" No...I say "well lets give him a good line and see what he can do"....I hope David can prove himself this yr. because if he does poorly again there will be a lot of people calling for his head

1) I totally agree Carr does cause some of his sacks. I have seen on several occasions him run out of bounds for the sack rather than throw it away. Personally I don't really care about that. Running out of bounds for a 1/2 yard loss instead of throwing the ball away doesn't change a game. The problem I have is that Carr is under constant pressure, even when he isn't being sacked ,he is being totally harassed. His protection is just so inconsistent.

As of right now David Carr has done nothing to impress me. He has been average and he has happy feet in the pocket and his "pocket presence" is bordering on sad. I am just frustrated that the previous coaching staff didn't put him in a situation in which we could fairly evaluate how good the guy even is. If Carr isn't the man, I would like him yanked ASAP and replace with a guy who might be the man.
As of right now, I am going to sit back. Grab my lucky rabbits foot and pray that all the coaches that praise Carr are right.

oh yeah one more thing...
:redtowel: GO TEXANS!!!!:redtowel:

Double Barrel
05-24-2006, 01:02 PM
Our line often played much better than portrayed.

I agree with this, and I spent much of last season's home games specifically watching the o-line. There were many times that he had protection but failed to capitalize on it. Perhaps it's a trust issue, or a "gettin' in a groove" thing, or just skills...who knows, but I agree that the o-line has taken the brunt of our offense's poor performance last year, right or wrong.

I just keep looking back at the game where Carr was given total control of the offense in the 1st offense and we score 20, then Pendry takes over and we gain squat.

Exactly...but, what makes me wonder, though, is that if his o-line was so bad, why did he have such a good first half in this game? Obviously there were fundamental issues at play here, and the coaching just plain sucked. But if the line was good enough for Carr to have a good performance here, why not other times? idonno:

It's like there are so many things wrong with the 2005 Texans that you don't even know where to start the list. With that being said, wholesale changes have taken place, and we have a right to expect the light to be lit under all their butts. It's time to shape up or ship out, and if Carr looks the same this year as he has in the past, I think we'll need to be honest about things around here.

Ibar_Harry
05-24-2006, 01:10 PM
1) I totally agree Carr does cause some of his sacks. I have seen on several occasions him run out of bounds for the sack rather than throw it away. Personally I don't really care about that. Running out of bounds for a 1/2 yard loss instead of throwing the ball away doesn't change a game. The problem I have is that Carr is under constant pressure, even when he isn't being sacked ,he is being totally harassed. His protection is just so inconsistent.

As of right now David Carr has done nothing to impress me. He has been average and he has happy feet in the pocket and his "pocket presence" is bordering on sad. I am just frustrated that the previous coaching staff didn't put him in a situation in which we could fairly evaluate how good the guy even is. If Carr isn't the man, I would like him yanked ASAP and replace with a guy who might be the man.
As of right now, I am going to sit back. Grab my lucky rabbits foot and pray that all the coaches that praise Carr are right.

oh yeah one more thing...
:redtowel: GO TEXANS!!!!:redtowel:

I would say just sit back and watch. This is a great mistery, and yes, I have been a Carr defender. Vinny and I have disagreed on many an occassion, but we respect each other. What encourages me more than some is that everything so far from Kubiak is that he likes David a lot. Kubiak is a film buff and I would bet he has watched every game Carr has played, knows what the previous staff was doing, and how that impacted Carr.

Carr has always been a willing student, but he had no one on the previous staff that had a glimmer of what an offense is and how it should be run. In addition they tied the hands of the offensive coordinator and destroyed the O-line.

I also believe that Kubiak sees a lot of Elway in Carr, not necessarily to the same degree, but their are a lot of similarities. Carr can run the ball like Elway, but he's not as cunning and shifty. Carr is bright, but I wouldn't say as bright as Elway. Carr has a very good arm, but perhapes not quite as strong as Elway. It took Elway a long time to develop and learn to put touch on the ball. Receivers had a problem catching the ball from Elway just like Carr. Carr is tall and strong like Elway. Carr has taken a lot of sacks and kept on ticking.

Kubiak has played QB, played with great QB's and coached great QB's. Therefore when he says Carr can be a winner I tend to believe him. I think Kubiak feels Carr is much more than an average talent. There have been a few glimmers here or there, but those glimmers have been when the previous coaching staff took their hands off the game. Just as Kubiak saw something in the tapes to make him take Mario, I too believe he saw something in the tapes to make him think Carr will be just fine. Remember, he studied film of Carr long before he ever became the head coach.

Runner
05-24-2006, 01:16 PM
Our line often played much better than portrayed.

Even moreso in 2004. "Back then" the majority of fans blamed everything on the line and it wasn't until last year that Carr and the RBs started getting their fair share of attention as being part of the problem.

TEXANRED
05-24-2006, 01:17 PM
It amazes me. Truely. Every time someone in the media says somthing positive about Carr, instead of rejoicing and adding somthing constructive to the conversation, what takes place instead is bashing and negativity by the exact same people. Hey, we know, we get it, you dont like Carr. Thats O.K. But it is not necessary to jump onto every "Positive Carr post" and tinckle all over it. Just like I dont jump on every anti-Carr post and spray my own brand of sunshine.

And before someone says it, and I know your gonna, I know this is a message board where people come to express there opinions and views. So there, I just expressed my own oppinion and view on the, if not Carr hater, Carr dislikers.

But that is just how I feel about it.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-24-2006, 01:17 PM
I don't have a shred of evidence to back it up, but.....

And I have seen every game (most of the home games in person).....

One of my impressions of the offense is that it has never been able to consistently give Carr time and/or an open target in obvious passing situations. I believe that is why you saw Capers and Pendry running so many delayed screens on 3rd and long. The quick pass to Johnson behind the line of scrimmage worked well for about 5 games. Then the other teams started doubling him at the line.

The bottom line (no pun intended) is that I don't think any of the components of this offense have been consistently good enough for anyone to make a fair evaluation of Carr's ability to play quarterback in this league. No one can sway me to think otherwise. I have based my opinion on all of the available evidence.

I can tell you that when DD was healthy, and there was a consistent second option to Johnson, that Carr looked superb. With Moulds in the fold, better coaching, and comparable back-up options to DD, this offense should look at least above average.

You all have to remember the first half of that 2004 season. Carr, DD, and Andre were lighting people up. Then the injury bug hit and we were exposed for what we were - a decent team with absolutely no depth.

The best thing about this coming season is that I will no longer have to watch Carr hit Bradford or Gaffney in the chest on a dead run and watch one of them drop the ball.

Oh, by the way, go Texans and go Astros!!!

:texflag: texanpride :astros:

jerek
05-24-2006, 01:21 PM
Our line often played much better than portrayed.

Yes and no. First, remember that I, like many of you, believe that Carr "has the tools" but has lacked the coaching and supporting cast to get the job done. IMO, he now has both, so it is indeed a put-up-or-get-out year for David Carr. And yes, he has made his own mistakes, so please do not think that I seek to absolve him of any responsibility.

That said, it is not a question of Carr "never having time" but rather, in many cases (and I don't have the numbers, so FWIW), our offensive drive would sputter at some point down the field and we'd get caught in a 3rd and 8, something like that, and the linebacker blitz would walk untouched through the line to put Carr on his ass before he had finished his drop step. Or ... we'd be moving the ball fairly successfully in typical Pendry nickel-and-dime fashion, and say, on 2nd and 4 ... same deal ... Carr gets hit before he can look up for a huge loss, and now we're in 3rd and forever and the drive stalls. Yes, there were many plays in which Carr did indeed have time to make the throw (whether or not the WRs were open was a different story) and yes there were some plays in which our wideouts were indeed open and Carr didn't find them. But there were many more plays in which the drive was stalled on a key misstep by the OL and that is what contributed to our lack of offensive production.

Every OL breaks down on occasion and no blocking unit can or does prevent every rush. I don't believe Carr should require 5.6 seconds per play to find the open WR and yes, I will happily ascribe his obvious mistakes and deficiencies to the man himself and tell him to work on it. I could even agree that our line was unnecessarily villianized at points ... but to pretend that they were anything less than awful and one of the worst units in the league is revisionist, IMO. Now ... as far as the why of it? It was a combination of bad personnel (Victor Riley) and moreso the idiotic, predictable playcalling (not hard to defend us when the crowd can call out the play before the ball's snapped). In either event, I expect that Kubiak and Sherman can have much more success with much the same personnel.

Double Barrel
05-24-2006, 01:25 PM
It amazes me. Truely. Every time someone in the media says somthing positive about Carr, instead of rejoicing and adding somthing constructive to the conversation, what takes place instead is bashing and negativity by the exact same people. Hey, we know, we get it, you dont like Carr. Thats O.K. But it is not necessary to jump onto every "Positive Carr post" and tinckle all over it. Just like I dont jump on every anti-Carr post and spray my own brand of sunshine.

And before someone says it, and I know your gonna, I know this is a message board where people come to express there opinions and views. So there, I just expressed my own oppinion and view on the, if not Carr hater, Carr dislikers.

So you're a Carr-hater hater? :hmmm:

In fairness, some positive spins do get a little carried away. For instance, the title of this thread - "Carr : QB's to fear in the future..." - while shiny optimistic, it seems a tad bit unrealistic based upon what we have seen the past four seasons.

Now, if the premise had been "Carr : QB's to rise in the future..." (or something along those lines), I'd say it's a bit more realistic. But seriously, nobody in the NFL fears Carr right now...not to say that they won't someday...but no, not in the near future.

I also believe that Kubiak sees a lot of Elway in Carr, not necessarily to the same degree, but their are a lot of similarities. Carr can run the ball like Elway, but he's not as cunning and shifty. Carr is bright, but I wouldn't say as bright as Elway. Carr has a very good arm, but perhapes not quite as strong as Elway. It took Elway a long time to develop and learn to put touch on the ball. Receivers had a problem catching the ball from Elway just like Carr. Carr is tall and strong like Elway. Carr has taken a lot of sacks and kept on ticking.

I hope Coach Kubiak is right, Ibar, I really do. Even an Elway-lite is cool, and if Carr could have half the career that JE had, then I'd be happy.

With "In Kubiak We Trust" as our motto, we just have to drink the koolaide right now. Not to say we put on blinders or anything, but we have to believe in our new coach and what he decides is right for the team if we plan on having any optimistic momentum going into this season.

aj.
05-24-2006, 01:29 PM
Carr at a Crossroads would be the title if I was writing a truly objective piece.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-24-2006, 01:33 PM
Carr at a Crossroads would be the title if I was writing a truly objective piece.


Hopefully Carr has "had a moment of clarity".

I quoted a Samuel L. Jackson line out of Pulp Fiction for that.

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 01:48 PM
Wow........
Your right he sucks. :)

I don't think he sucks, he just makes poor decisions. He has the athletic tools but seems to lack the intangibles.

Hulk75
05-24-2006, 01:56 PM
I don't think he sucks, he just makes poor decisions. He has the athletic tools but seems to lack the intangibles.
Yea he makes bad decisions, your absolutly right, I guess making bad decicions in that Offense is normal considering how bad the scheme and offense and lack of playmakers around him actually was.

SESupergenius
05-24-2006, 01:57 PM
Not analogous...but it may be synonomous...IMO, Carr is not Steve Young...He is David Carr...I like everyone's optimism about him though...:)
It is very analogous. The analogy is that fans wanted to give up on Young and he wasn't good until he went to a newer system. The same thing is happening here, it's just that Carr is getting a new system and he doesn't have to go to another team to get that.

TexanFan881
05-24-2006, 01:57 PM
I don't think he sucks, he just makes poor decisions. He has the athletic tools but seems to lack the intangibles.

When you have barely any time in the pocket it is hard to make a good decision...just let his stats and our win column number this upcoming year to do the talking.

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 02:07 PM
I don't know. In life, Carr seems to be pretty successful. Money, family, great job. Looks pretty good from here.

In the game of football, who has succeeded with less than what David Carr has had to work with? Really, I'd like to know.

The answer to your question is really a subjective arguement. My point is really that making excuses for why you are not successful is not a productive measure. Carr hasn't made these excuses publicly and I hope really doesn't believe them.

You either get it done or you don't. If you lose, you lost and there are no excuses. You can come with reasons why, but you have to take responsibility and fix what you have control over. The people that believe Carr will be the greatest quarterback will not admit that he has played marginal his first four years, they just respond with for reasons why.

Here is one though, Earl Campbell.

Also, Joey Harrington has similar stats and was in a similar situation and has been traded by the Lions.

colts18288
05-24-2006, 02:09 PM
Carr makes poor decisions, that is his biggest problem.

His athletic ability is not in question and his mechanics aren't perfect but good enough.

Why would it matter if you have cannon for an arm and deadly accuracy if you can't read a defense and throw it to the right guy? Why would it matter if you are not a leader when you are the quarterback and everyone expects that from you? Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?

Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!

Your so wrong on this comment you have no idea. Carr never goes a game without being mauled by the defense. If you take Carr and put him in behind Indy's offensive line, this guy puts up some serious numbers. Texans, you have a very good, and could seriously be a top 5 Q.B. IF he gets protection. He cant throw sitting on his rear, or looking out the earhole of his helm cause he gets smaked around to much. I hate to see it with him, because I fear he may lose his confidence after getting beaten around, then again I really dont want him to florish in my division.

How is he supposed to step up in a pocket that is not there, read a defense when all he sees is a linemans jersey. So IMO its physical not mental, that poor Q.B. is is physically getting his brains kicked in.

New coach is gonna help you guys more then most belive, my suprise pick team this year is the Texans. you all come so close to the playoffs, but fall short........that happens next year. wild card.

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 02:12 PM
When you have barely any time in the pocket it is hard to make a good decision...just let his stats and our win column number this upcoming year to do the talking.


I don't see where you guys are holding Carr responsible for anything.

So if he turns it around this year, it isn't really Carr, it is Kubiak's coaching.

How can Carr get none of the bad stuff when it hits the fan and get all the good stuff if it works out?

It's like the saying goes, you take the good with the bad.

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 02:13 PM
Your so wrong on this comment you have no idea. Carr never goes a game without being mauled by the defense. If you take Carr and put him in behind Indy's offensive line, this guy puts up some serious numbers. Texans, you have a very good, and could seriously be a top 5 Q.B. IF he gets protection. He cant throw sitting on his rear, or looking out the earhole of his helm cause he gets smaked around to much. I hate to see it with him, because I fear he may lose his confidence after getting beaten around, then again I really dont want him to florish in my division.

How is he supposed to step up in a pocket that is not there, read a defense when all he sees is a linemans jersey. So IMO its physical not mental, that poor Q.B. is is physically getting his brains kicked in.

New coach is gonna help you guys more then most belive, my suprise pick team this year is the Texans. you all come so close to the playoffs, but fall short........that happens next year. wild card.

How about a trade straight up for David Carr for Payton Manning.

If Carr is as good as you say, why should we have to wait two years to get a Wild Card? I believe Payton took the Colts to the Playoffs his first year.

As for Carr's sacks, a good portion of them were his own doing. Sprinting out of the pocket, running out of bounds behind the line scrimmage, and not throwing the ball away. When they played Pittsburgh, Joey Porter said that he thought Carr was running when he didn't have to and he was yelling at his offense line. Porter said you know you got it going when the QB yells at his offensive line. If the defesnse doesn't think the scheme, quarterback, and receivers can get a completed pass, the offensive line isn't going to be able to protect the QB. The main problem last year was two fold, coaching and Carr.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-24-2006, 02:14 PM
Your so wrong on this comment you have no idea. Carr never goes a game without being mauled by the defense. If you take Carr and put him in behind Indy's offensive line, this guy puts up some serious numbers. Texans, you have a very good, and could seriously be a top 5 Q.B. IF he gets protection. He cant throw sitting on his rear, or looking out the earhole of his helm cause he gets smaked around to much. I hate to see it with him, because I fear he may lose his confidence after getting beaten around, then again I really dont want him to florish in my division.

How is he supposed to step up in a pocket that is not there, read a defense when all he sees is a linemans jersey. So IMO its physical not mental, that poor Q.B. is is physically getting his brains kicked in.

New coach is gonna help you guys more then most belive, my suprise pick team this year is the Texans. you all come so close to the playoffs, but fall short........that happens next year. wild card.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Speaking of Indy's line - is the entire o-line returning?

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 02:18 PM
When you have barely any time in the pocket it is hard to make a good decision...just let his stats and our win column number this upcoming year to do the talking.

We shall see.

infantrycak
05-24-2006, 02:18 PM
I believe Payton took the Colts to the Playoffs his first year.

Not unless 3-13 got you in the playoffs that year.

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 02:26 PM
Not unless 3-13 got you in the playoffs that year.

The next year they went 13-3.

So his second year he went to the playoffs.

Peyton's been to the playoffs I think every year but 2 since 1998.

colts18288
05-24-2006, 02:29 PM
How about a trade straight up for David Carr for Payton Manning.

If Carr is as good as you say, why should we have to wait two years to get a Wild Card? I believe Payton took the Colts to the Playoffs his first year.


You believe wrong, he went 3-13 his first year, and he had Faulk and Marvin and the O line. What does Carr have? No protection, Nice W.R. but he is no Marvin and then R.B. Davis is a good but not a top 10 back. I never said that he would put up Peyton numbers, only real good numbers.

I remember after our first year, everyone around here was ready to throw Peyton to the wolves, saying we should have picked Ryan Leaf over Peyton. I was 1 of the few who believed given the protection and time under the right coaches and could be a pretty decent Q.B. never figured he would be this good:stirpot: , Secondly you would have to wait 2 years for a wildcard now because you now have a legit coaching staff that realizes what game plan means, he needs to get used to there style, alot of the times when we play it looks like no one really accounted for a game plan for your team.

From the year the Colts arrived here in Indy in 1984 to the time we got Peyton we were the laughing stock of the NFL, no one would admit in public they were a fan, I remember 1 year winning only 1 game. I remember 10 years of losing seasons, years that we stunk so bad a high school team could have beat us.

I dont think even Peyton could put up good numbers last year on your team, I may be wrong but even he could only take so much of a beating.......

Hulk75
05-24-2006, 02:35 PM
You believe wrong, he went 3-13 his first year, and he had Faulk and Marvin and the O line. What does Carr have? No protection, Nice W.R. but he is no Marvin and then R.B. Davis is a good but not a top 10 back. I never said that he would put up Peyton numbers, only real good numbers.

I remember after our first year, everyone around here was ready to throw Peyton to the wolves, saying we should have picked Ryan Leaf over Peyton. I was 1 of the few who believed given the protection and time under the right coaches and could be a pretty decent Q.B. never figured he would be this good:stirpot: , Secondly you would have to wait 2 years for a wildcard now because you now have a legit coaching staff that realizes what game plan means, he needs to get used to there style, alot of the times when we play it looks like no one really accounted for a game plan for your team.
From the year the Colts arrived here in Indy in 1984 to the time we got Peyton we were the laughing stock of the NFL, no one would admit in public they were a fan, I remember 1 year winning only 1 game. I remember 10 years of losing seasons, years that we stunk so bad a high school team could have beat us.

I dont think even Peyton could put up good numbers last year on your team, I may be wrong but even he could only take so much of a beating.......
Very True and those are FACTS NOT EXCUSES! am I right Colt or not.
We got the same thing going here.
And Peyton was not on an expantion team, that started from scratch.

Tex Trenches
05-24-2006, 02:37 PM
Carr improves this year because...

... Gary Kubiak knows a thing or two about developing quaterbacks.

... a new system will allow David to utilize his talents.

... more weapons will give Carr more opportunities to move the football.

... better protection will give more time to succeed.

... David needs to prove to "some" fans that passing on Young was the right choice.

TEXANRED
05-24-2006, 02:46 PM
So you're a Carr-hater hater? :hmmm:

In fairness, some positive spins do get a little carried away. For instance, the tital of this thread - "Carr : QB's to fear in the future..." - while shiny optimistic, it seems a tad bit unrealistic based upon what we have seen the past four seasons.

Now, if the premise had been "Carr : QB's to rise in the future..." (or something along those lines), I'd say it's a bit more realistic. But seriously, nobody in the NFL fears Carr right now...not to say that they won't someday...but no, not in the near future.





No I am not a Carr hater hater, I am a..........uh.........well.......um.........I guess I am a Carr hater hater.:chicken:


The tittle of this thread was from inside the NFL when discussing possible future QB's that may strike fear into the hearts of Defenses. Darren Woodson has said Carr would be as long as he had time and wasen't looking up at the sky.:francis:

real
05-24-2006, 02:50 PM
Your so wrong on this comment you have no idea. Carr never goes a game without being mauled by the defense. If you take Carr and put him in behind Indy's offensive line, this guy puts up some serious numbers. Texans, you have a very good, and could seriously be a top 5 Q.B. IF he gets protection. He cant throw sitting on his rear, or looking out the earhole of his helm cause he gets smaked around to much. I hate to see it with him, because I fear he may lose his confidence after getting beaten around, then again I really dont want him to florish in my division.

How is he supposed to step up in a pocket that is not there, read a defense when all he sees is a linemans jersey. So IMO its physical not mental, that poor Q.B. is is physically getting his brains kicked in.

New coach is gonna help you guys more then most belive, my suprise pick team this year is the Texans. you all come so close to the playoffs, but fall short........that happens next year. wild card.

People....Guys, Girls...Listen up.....Of course Carr can be a good QB...IF he has a good o-line...good coaches....good wide-outs...good plays to run...good running game... if,if,if,if..Man...Thats alot of if's...If alot of QB's would have had these things they'd have done better than what they did...Fact is Carr hasn't proven that he can be good despite problems,he has played poorly and has been sacked more times in his first 3 yrs than anyone ever...Alot of Qb's can be GOOD with a GOOD line....thats not saying much....He's not SPECIAL....Can he be Serviceable....Sure....Can he put up GREAT numbers in a GREAT offense...why not....But can He lead us to victory IF things aren't going our way...Can our line have a bad game and he stilll shine...IMO...NO....Carr is what he is....Not saying we cant win with Carr, because we can...He's just nothing special...And if Carr puts up pro-bowl numbers next yr. I'll be happy for the guy str8 up...But In my opinion he will be the product of the system whether its good or bad

Vinny
05-24-2006, 02:52 PM
No I am not a Carr hater hater, I am a..........uh.........well.......um.........I guess I am a Carr hater hater.:chicken:


The tittle of this thread was from inside the NFL when discussing possible future QB's that may strike fear into the hearts of Defenses. Darren Woodson has said Carr would be as long as he had time and wasen't looking up at the sky.:francis:Why is it some people can't see anything but black or white? You know, there is a middle ground between pollyanna and hatred. I think most people are somewhere in the middle. I don't see 'hatred' for a player when you critique his game when you are talking some football with your buddies...I just see guys talking football....I don't think these eyes see all the hatred your eyes do.

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 02:54 PM
People....Guys, Girls...Listen up.....Of course Carr can be a good QB...IF he has a good o-line...good coaches....good wide-outs...good plays to run...good running game... if,if,if,if..Man...Thats alot of if's...If alot of QB's would have had these things they'd have done better than what they did...Fact is Carr hasn't proven that he can be good despite problems,he has played poorly and has been sacked more times in his first 3 yrs than anyone ever...Alot of Qb's can be GOOD with a GOOD line....thats not saying much....He's not SPECIAL....Can he be Serviceable....Sure....Can he put up GREAT numbers in a GREAT offense...why not....But can He lead us to victory IF things aren't going our way...Can our line have a bad game and he stilll shine...IMO...NO....Carr is what he is....Not saying we cant win with Carr, because we can...He's just nothing special...And if Carr puts up pro-bowl numbers next yr. I'll be happy for the guy str8 up...But In my opinion he will be the product of the system whether its good or bad

Very nice and well put. My thoughts exactly.

I am going to leave the Carr thing alone. Everything has already been said about this subject.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-24-2006, 02:59 PM
Very nice and well put. My thoughts exactly.

I am going to leave the Carr thing alone. Everything has already been said about this subject.


I would like to hope that this is the end of the discussion til sometime mid season, but I don't think it is going to work out that way.

colts18288
05-24-2006, 03:05 PM
People....Guys, Girls...Listen up.....Of course Carr can be a good QB...IF he has a good o-line...good coaches....good wide-outs...good plays to run...good running game... if,if,if,if..Man...Thats alot of if's...If alot of QB's would have had these things they'd have done better than what they did...Fact is Carr hasn't proven that he can be good despite problems,he has played poorly and has been sacked more times in his first 3 yrs than anyone ever...Alot of Qb's can be GOOD with a GOOD line....thats not saying much....He's not SPECIAL....Can he be Serviceable....Sure....Can he put up GREAT numbers in a GREAT offense...why not....But can He lead us to victory IF things aren't going our way...Can our line have a bad game and he stilll shine...IMO...NO....Carr is what he is....Not saying we cant win with Carr, because we can...He's just nothing special...And if Carr puts up pro-bowl numbers next yr. I'll be happy for the guy str8 up...But In my opinion he will be the product of the system whether its good or bad


So I guess since Peyton has not won us a superbowl we should get rid of him also. He has all the things you talk about and still cant do squat......
Who holds the Rookie Q.B. sack record?????????It was Peyton Manning. I do not know if Carr has surpassed it but that proves the point that sacks dont mean squat, I guess he could just wing it down field and toss a pick, then watch teams blow you out every week by 40+ points.

As for the question can our line have a bad game and he still shine. Colts vs Steelers...Playoffs last year ring a bell........O line stunk.....Manning stunk and could not carry the team. If the d line does a 3 step drop faster then your Q.B. you may have a problem.

Double Barrel
05-24-2006, 03:09 PM
I would like to hope that this is the end of the discussion til sometime mid season, but I don't think it is going to work out that way.

You kiddin'? A football forum with over three months to go until football season...sheesh, I predict another couple of dozen threads of this nature. :shoot:

TEXANRED
05-24-2006, 03:11 PM
Why is it some people can't see anything but black or white? You know, there is a middle ground between pollyanna and hatred. I think most people are somewhere in the middle. I don't see 'hatred' for a player when you critique his game when you are talking some football with your buddies...I just see guys talking football....I don't think these eyes see all the hatred your eyes do.
True, there is a middle ground. However the middle ground would consist of both good and bad criitique. I would have to say that I have read alot of your posts in reguarding Carr and can not honestly recall ever seeing you post somthing positive about the man. So in my opinion, right or wrong, I would view you as a Carr hater. Now I know that you don't acctually hate the man, you wouldn't go off and burn his house down. Just like I dont really love Carr and bring him a dozen roses before each game, but for drama purposes these are the labels that have been asigned.

Hulk75
05-24-2006, 03:12 PM
Why is it some people can't see anything but black or white? You know, there is a middle ground between pollyanna and hatred. I think most people are somewhere in the middle. I don't see 'hatred' for a player when you critique his game when you are talking some football with your buddies...I just see guys talking football....I don't think these eyes see all the hatred your eyes do.
Your right, everyone has a right to critique anyones game.
But would you agree that some people know more then others about the game of football?

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-24-2006, 03:13 PM
As for the question can our line have a bad game and he still shine. Colts vs Steelers...Playoffs last year ring a bell........O line stunk.....Manning stunk and could not carry the team. If the d line does a 3 step drop faster then your Q.B. you may have a problem.[/QUOTE]


You make a good point. I think Freeney was getting to the pocket quicker than Carr most times when they faced each other.

Double Barrel
05-24-2006, 03:16 PM
Your right, everyone has a right to critique anyones game.
But would you agree that some people know more then others about the game of football?

ooooohh...can of worms, meet the can opener. :popcorn:

Hulk75
05-24-2006, 03:18 PM
ooooohh...can of worms, meet the can opener. :popcorn:
Not being mean or nothing, I am just saying.:cool:

real
05-24-2006, 03:18 PM
So I guess since Peyton has not won us a superbowl we should get rid of him also. He has all the things you talk about and still cant do squat......
Who holds the Rookie Q.B. sack record?????????It was Peyton Manning. I do not know if Carr has surpassed it but that proves the point that sacks dont mean squat, I guess he could just wing it down field and toss a pick, then watch teams blow you out every week by 40+ points.

As for the question can our line have a bad game and he still shine. Colts vs Steelers...Playoffs last year ring a bell........O line stunk.....Manning stunk and could not carry the team. If the d line does a 3 step drop faster then your Q.B. you may have a problem.
Hey I don't know about Indy but this is Houston...We aren't planning on Division Titles for the rest of our lives...WE WANT RINGS AND SHINY THINGS...and if DC cant get it done he's gone...and as far as ya'll gettin rid of Manning....If he can't perform adequately enough to win when the o-line is having an off game, or a couple things go wrong maybe ya'll do need to re-evalutate the guy and see just how good he really is...but thats not my concern....But lets not use peyton as the perfect qb...cuz he's not....and neither is anyone else...so for all these comparisons between Carr and whoever is ridiculous...CARR is CARR...OTHERS are WHO THEY ARE...Every Qb is in a totaly different situation than the next....Those other QB's aren't my concern...Im a houstonian...so I talk about Carr...I don't care what manning nor any other Qb did in comparison to Carr last yr. because they weren't in the same situation as him....He has to prove that he can win HERE, cuz i don't care if he can win in INDY...If he can't win IN HOUSTON he's gone....THE END

Vinny
05-24-2006, 03:18 PM
True, there is a middle ground. However the middle ground would consist of both good and bad criitique. I would have to say that I have read alot of your posts in reguarding Carr and can not honestly recall ever seeing you post somthing positive about the man. So in my opinion, right or wrong, I would view you as a Carr hater. Now I know that you don't acctually hate the man, you wouldn't go off and burn his house down. Just like I dont really love Carr and bring him a dozen roses before each game, but for drama purposes these are the labels that have been asigned.I don't hate David Carr. I talk about the most important position on the team and I am not sold on him. So, 60 games later I am still waiting for David to prove me wrong. That doesn't amount to hatred. I really don't carry much hate around in my heart. Don't let my sarcastic personality and bluntness fool you. I've sat with some of you guys during football games...I never hate on David. I will pick him apart on a football message board though...thats what these things are for.

Hulk75
05-24-2006, 03:23 PM
I don't hate David Carr. I talk about the most important position on the team and I am not sold on him. So, 60 games later I am still waiting for David to prove me wrong. That doesn't amount to hatred. I really don't carry much hate around in my heart. Don't let my sarcastic personality and bluntness fool you. I've sat with some of you guys during football games...I never hate on David. I will pick him apart on a football message board though...thats what these things are for.
Dont get upset or nothing put who on this team are we sold on?
Domanick we know what he can do........Dunta maybe he had one good year, when Glenn was oposite of him.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-24-2006, 03:23 PM
Your right, everyone has a right to critique anyones game.
But would you agree that some people know more then others about the game of football?

I'm not even going to respond to that question.

...other than to say I think a lot of us THINK we know more than others about football. I include myself in that "a lot of us". If we were all as knowledgeable as we think we are we'd have a job using our mastery of the game for something other than talking about it online.

That being said, I'm having fun killing time chatting back and forth with all you diehard fans.

TexansLucky13
05-24-2006, 03:24 PM
I really don't carry much hate around in my heart.

If you aren't carrying it in the form of hatred then you are carrying in a more self-deprecating fashion. That's not good.... hate a little. Yes, there are things much worse than an obvious hatred.

Truthfully, we know as much about David Carr as a QB as we do the outcome of next season. Nothing. It's all speculation and tiny observations.

real
05-24-2006, 03:25 PM
Truthfully, we know as much about David Carr as a QB as we do the outcome of next season. Nothing. It's all speculation and tiny observations.

We know a lil bit more than nothing about Carr....

Vinny
05-24-2006, 03:25 PM
Dont get upset or nothing put who on this team are we sold on?
Domanick we know what he can do........Dunta maybe he had one good year, when Glenn was oposite of him.I expect players to live up to their cap hit...that's pretty much what I look at. Carr has always been paid on potential and what he may become. This year is no different as he hasn't really lived up to his cap space over the first four years in my opinion. I hope that one year he is paid on how he plays instead of what he may become one day. Perhaps this is the year. I donno...thats why they play da game though.

real
05-24-2006, 03:26 PM
I expect players to live up to their cap hit...that's pretty much what I look at. Carr has always been paid on potential and what he may become. This year is no different as he hasn't really lived up to his cap space over the first four years in my opinion. I hope that one year he is paid on how he plays instead of what he may become one day. Perhaps this is the year. I donno...thats why they play da game though.

I feel ya Vinny...

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 03:30 PM
So I guess since Peyton has not won us a superbowl we should get rid of him also. He has all the things you talk about and still cant do squat......
Who holds the Rookie Q.B. sack record?????????It was Peyton Manning. I do not know if Carr has surpassed it but that proves the point that sacks dont mean squat, I guess he could just wing it down field and toss a pick, then watch teams blow you out every week by 40+ points.

As for the question can our line have a bad game and he still shine. Colts vs Steelers...Playoffs last year ring a bell........O line stunk.....Manning stunk and could not carry the team. If the d line does a 3 step drop faster then your Q.B. you may have a problem.

The analysis I read about Indy and Pittsburgh in the playoffs was that Manning and the coaching staff didn't make adjustments.

Indy has been running the same offense for several years and everyone knows Mannings calls the play at the line according to the defensive formation he sees. Pittsburgh studied and figured out their tendacies. Pittsburgh was purposely giving Manning certain looks so he would call certain plays. Basically, Pittsburgh knew the play Indy was running and the Colts didn't change their game plan.

The offensive line cannot overcome that obstacle. If you are going to throw the football you need to do these thing right and in this order.

1. Good play calling
2. Quarterback reads the defense
3. Receivers run correct routes according to the reading of the defense by the quarterback.
4. Offensive line protects quarterback for amount of time required by the play (also meaning the reading of the defense) and/or rush
5. Quarterback throws the football to the correct receiver and on target
6. Receiver catches the ball

The offensive line can only handle #4 and if a defensive coordinator believes an offense isn't getting the other five items done, he is probably going to be able to put pressure on the QB regardless of the protection. The other five items either make the offensive line's job easier or harder.

Hulk75
05-24-2006, 03:31 PM
I'm not even going to respond to that question.

...other than to say I think a lot of us THINK we know more than others about football. I include myself in that "a lot of us". If we were all as knowledgeable as we think we are we'd have a job using our mastery of the game for something other than talking about it online.

That being said, I'm having fun killing time chatting back and forth with all you diehard fans.
Dont take what I am saying the wrong way, most of us have broke bones and won and lost games, been in film rooms with some great coaches, broken down film and played against some of the best.
I am just saying that people see things different..............Just like Darren Woodson, Giff Nealson and guys like that sees things different then your average die hard Texan fan.

real
05-24-2006, 03:32 PM
The analysis I read about Indy and Pittsburgh in the playoffs was that Manning and the coaching staff didn't make adjustments.

Indy has been running the same offense for several years and everyone knows Mannings calls the play at the line according to the defensive formation he sees. Pittsburgh studied and figured out their tendacies. Pittsburgh was purposely giving Manning certain looks so he would call certain plays. Basically, Pittsburgh knew the play Indy was running and the Colts didn't change their game plan.

The offensive line cannot overcome that obstacle. If you are going to throw the football you need to do these thing right and in this order.

1. Good play calling
2. Quarterback reads the defense
3. Receivers run correct routes according to the reading of the defense by the quarterback.
4. Offensive line protects quarterback for amount of time required by the play (also meaning the reading of the defense) and/or rush
5. Quarterback throws the football to the correct receiver and on target
6. Receiver catches the ball

The offensive line can only handle #4 and if a defensive coordinator believes an offense isn't getting the other five items done, he is probably going to be able to put pressure on the QB regardless of the protection. The other five items either make the offensive line's job easier or harder.

I think Hike the ball should be number one....J/K

Kaiser Toro
05-24-2006, 03:33 PM
Jimmy McGinty: You know what seperates the winners from the losers?
Shane Falco: The score.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
05-24-2006, 03:34 PM
Dont take what I am saying the wrong way, most of us have broke bones and won and lost games, been in film rooms with some great coaches, broken down film and played against some of the best.
I am just saying that people see things different..............Just like Darren Woodson, Giff Nealson and guys like that sees things different then your average die hard Texan fan.

I'd be willing to bet that most of the people on this board have never played a down of organized football above the YMCA level. I haven't. I was too small and too slow, but it doesn't take away from my appreciation of the game.

hollywood_texan
05-24-2006, 03:35 PM
I think Hike the ball should be number one....J/K

Funny but good point, but shouldn't it be inserted at #3?

real
05-24-2006, 03:36 PM
I'd be willing to bet that most of the people on this board have never played a down of organized football above the YMCA level. I haven't. I was too small and too slow, but it doesn't take away from my appreciation of the game.

I'd be willing to take you up on that bet and say most board members have played some sort of organized ball past YMCA....

Kaiser Toro
05-24-2006, 03:41 PM
I'd be willing to take you up on that bet and say most board members have played some sort of organized ball past YMCA....

I played the Z in a flag football tourney last weekend. :)

Hulk75
05-24-2006, 03:51 PM
I expect players to live up to their cap hit...that's pretty much what I look at. Carr has always been paid on potential and what he may become. This year is no different as he hasn't really lived up to his cap space over the first four years in my opinion. I hope that one year he is paid on how he plays instead of what he may become one day. Perhaps this is the year. I donno...thats why they play da game though.
I am mean really what else could he have done, these last couple of years.
What would you ask of him, people can only do so much with what they have around them.
Kubiak or Dom
Palmer Pendry or Kubiak
Sherman or the slap we had here for the line.
Roman or Callohon
Moulds or Bradford
Gaffney or Walters
Wells or Antwain Smith
Billy or Jeb
Victor Rilley or Charles Spencer
Steve McKinney or Mike Flanagan
Carolina Panthers with Dom or The Denver Broncos with Kubiak.....
All I am saying is that Carr has done what he can with the guys and staff he use to have, did we really expect Carr to go the Super Bowl or even the Playoffs with these guy and coaches, or even be consistant in a predictable Offense.
Yes he has a lot of money, he took what THEY offered, he did not hold out or ask for more money when he really could have. Trust me Carr does not play for money he loves what he does and works hard at it, I am guessing that is how he was raised.
He is going to do great things this year, cause he finaly has some talent around him and some depth in front of him and some awsome coaching in his ear. This is a big year for him, I am sure he is ready he has not backed down yet.

edo783
05-24-2006, 03:59 PM
And if Carr puts up pro-bowl numbers next yr. I'll be happy for the guy str8 up...But In my opinion he will be the product of the system whether its good or bad

Nice way to set it up to dog Carr no matter what. If he doesn't do Pro Bowl numbers then he's a loser, cut em lose. If he does do Pro Bowl numbers...heck that means nothing...just a product of the system. You and Hollywood are just trying to create an atmosphere of excessivly elevated expectations in order to dog him even more than you do now.

cuppacoffee
05-24-2006, 04:14 PM
"If the d line does a 3 step drop faster then your Q.B. you may have a problem."

Truer words were never spoken.

Maybe all the Carr haters here should ponder this for a minute?.:um:

Nah. Their minds are made up, facts just confuse them.. :violin

:coffee:

real
05-24-2006, 05:16 PM
Nice way to set it up to dog Carr no matter what. If he doesn't do Pro Bowl numbers then he's a loser, cut em lose. If he does do Pro Bowl numbers...heck that means nothing...just a product of the system. You and Hollywood are just trying to create an atmosphere of excessivly elevated expectations in order to dog him even more than you do now.

What do you mean i set him up to be a loser...I wasn't out ther sackin his ASSets.....or givin em up for that matter....DC set himself up...and what i mean by him being a product of the system is that alot of people keep saying what he needs to be successful and they name a million different things...Guess what....it's the freakin NFL...and this is TEXAS...No one is going to baby DC...He has time to prove himself, which I totally think he should have...if he doesn't then he's gone...period...so don't make me out to be someone that wants to see the guy fail...cuz honestly i don't care about the guy, but i want houston to win and...duhhh...that means Carr has to do well....BTW...if DC a.k.a mr product of the system does good, then he deserves his props...I really think that a lot of these so called great QB's aren't that much greater than Carr....A lot of them look better because of whats around them, but at the same time....WHO CARES...he is a texan..and i said it once and i'll say it again...I don't give a flyin pig....:pigfly: ......what he'd look like behind , in some one elses, playing next to, handing off to, throwing passes to, in someone elses offense...he is a texan and this is where he has to perform...

mexican_texan
05-24-2006, 05:22 PM
? i thought McNair was the one signing the checks?
We're the ones paying for the team, so he's just giving players money that he made off of us fans, therefore, we have a right to say "us" or "we."

Sarg01
05-24-2006, 06:05 PM
I don't see where you guys are holding Carr responsible for anything.

So if he turns it around this year, it isn't really Carr, it is Kubiak's coaching.

How can Carr get none of the bad stuff when it hits the fan and get all the good stuff if it works out?

It's like the saying goes, you take the good with the bad.

It's not our job to hold Carr responsible. It's our job to argue the truth as we see it. The truth is that David Carr has been set up to fail - and we have a league record book that says he's been more set up to fail than any QB who's ever played in the NFL. He almost got a chance to break his own record last year. No one is saying he is perfect. However, he did manage to put together something statistically in years 2 and 3 - probably not coincidentally the same years he wasn't in danger of setting the sack record.

You never hear Carr making these "not responsible" statements, incidentally, so all the "a good leader wouldn't make excuses" arguments are DOA as far as I'm concerned. Heck, you rarely hear him bash the O-Line!

SESupergenius
05-24-2006, 07:14 PM
If it were up to me they would be paid according to the minutes they've been on the field and payed on an even scale. It's a team game. Irvin need Aikman to throw him the ball for a TD and can thank Emmitt for keeping the defense respectful all the while there is no gain without the offensive line and a defense to hold the other team, and even a kick to kick the extra points. So you see it takes a whole team. Is Carr overpaid for his perfomance. Yeppers, but so is the whole team. Get it, THE WHOLE TEAM! You can't just single out one player here.....unless his name is Matt Stevens or Phillip Buchanon. OOOPS did I say that? Shhhhhhhhhhhhh.

real
05-25-2006, 02:05 PM
Look...Just to settle it all...Carr is a good QB...He can win....He has made mistakes....The previous regime also made mistakes....Some feel Carr may never be anything....some feel he's serviceable(me)...and some think he's the greatest thing since.....Fast food....How ever the only FACT is that Carr HAS been givin time to prove himself...he HAS been given a better line...He has gotten a better defense....Heck he's got almost all the things that the Carr apologist have asked for...Now it's time to put up or shut up...This season shall tell the story

DocBar
05-25-2006, 02:12 PM
Carr makes poor decisions, that is his biggest problem.

His athletic ability is not in question and his mechanics aren't perfect but good enough.

Why would it matter if you have cannon for an arm and deadly accuracy if you can't read a defense and throw it to the right guy? Why would it matter if you are not a leader when you are the quarterback and everyone expects that from you? Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?

Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!
WOW!!! Awful hard on a guy who's been sacked 208 times in 4 years in a system coached by...I'm not sure HOW to describe the former regime. The Seth Wand saga is enough to clue me in that Capers & Co. had precious little
knowledge on the offensive side of the ball. Kubiak thinks Wand is THE prototypical Left Tackle. Capers kept yanking him in and out of the line up and neither Palmer nor Pendry seemed to have a clue as to how teach a young player how to properly play a position. Capers only success as a head coach came with an overpriced group of aging but talented veterans. It also ruined the club for a few years due to salary cap concerns. Let's see how Carr fares in a more favorable atmosphere. I bet ANYONE would make dumb mistakes if harrassed as much as Carr has been. :lightbulb:

michaelm
05-25-2006, 03:40 PM
It is hard to fathom that we are 32 million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.

It is hard to fathom that we are 750+ million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.

DocBar
05-26-2006, 02:02 PM
It is hard to fathom that we are 750+ million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.
There seems to be a lot of potential in this line of thinking. :hmmm:

Meloy
05-26-2006, 02:22 PM
I'd be willing to bet that most of the people on this board have never played a down of organized football above the YMCA level. I haven't. I was too small and too slow, but it doesn't take away from my appreciation of the game.In my own mind, I was the greatest flag footballer at Highlands Junior High. My "gang" of kids played whatever sport was in season before class began and then during the lunch hour. We were ridiculed as the "high nooners" because we usually skipped lunch. Seldom played basketball cause that meant we had to go indoors! Never quite understood the idea that if you've never done something, you just can't possibly understand it.

kcwilson
05-26-2006, 02:35 PM
Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?


How can you step up in the pocket when the top, right, and left side of the pocket has collapsed? If one guy gets through you can step up... but when multiple breaks in the protection happen... there is no pocket. You just have to bust a$s out of there, if no one is open.

I agree that once he is outside the tackles, that if he is not going to run up field, then he has to throw it out of bounds. That needs to be corrected.

Vinny
05-26-2006, 02:52 PM
How can you step up in the pocket when the top, right, and left side of the pocket has collapsed? If one guy gets through you can step up... but when multiple breaks in the protection happen... there is no pocket. You just have to bust a$s out of there, if no one is open.

I agree that once he is outside the tackles, that if he is not going to run up field, then he has to throw it out of bounds. That needs to be corrected.He has had plenty of pockets to step up into in 5 years. He just hasn't been very good in the pocket to date.

Porky
05-26-2006, 03:02 PM
He has had plenty of pockets to step up into in 5 years. He just hasn't been very good in the pocket to date.

Come on Vinny, why you always got to dog the guy. :)

hollywood_texan
05-26-2006, 03:02 PM
How can you step up in the pocket when the top, right, and left side of the pocket has collapsed? If one guy gets through you can step up... but when multiple breaks in the protection happen... there is no pocket. You just have to bust a$s out of there, if no one is open.

I agree that once he is outside the tackles, that if he is not going to run up field, then he has to throw it out of bounds. That needs to be corrected.

Are you saying he never has had a chance to step up in the pocket? Come on now. He rarely steps up when the opportunity presents itself and that is my point.

Passing the football is a team effort and Carr is going to have to do as much work as the offensive line and receivers to be successful. There are a lot of things that must be done right to complete a pass, and most of those things are not the responsibility of the offensive line. Those items are and in this order:

1. Play calling/scheme
2. Quarterback reads the defense
3. Offensive line provides protection taking into consideration the play and the rush applied
4. Receivers run correct routes.
5. Quarterback throws the ball to the correct receiver
6. Receiver catches the ball

Depending how good 1-2 and 4-6 are done, it makes the offensive line's job easier or harder. If you can't do any of those things correctly, it doesn't matter if you have nothing but all pros on your line, the quarterback is going to get nailed. Which is why the offense was so horrible at protecting the quarterback. The complete offense was horrible from the coaching staff to the players. No one shined, except for maybe Domanick Davis when he was healthy.

Think of this, if Carr doesn't have things to work on, why is he working harder this off season than any other season? And it can't be just learning a new system.

The entire offense has a lot of work to do, top to bottom. Remember this though, the better the coaching/playing calling and quarterback play, the easier it is on the offensive line. The offensive line should never touch the football expect of the center during the snap, so they really have limited responsibility and control.

Besides, if Carr turns into an All Pro next year, he will get all the glory but he doesn't get any of the blame of the first four years. Does that make sense?

Long Baller
05-26-2006, 03:04 PM
I will call my shot now. Carr will be a pro bowl QB within the next 3 years.

There will always be those that knock Carr, but prior to the abomination of last season I donít think that number would have been as great as it is today. I think if VY would have come out prior to last year the amount of people calling for the dumping of Carr in favor of VY would have been a lot less. In year 3 he put up real solid numbers and going into last year we all expected great things because of his performance in the 7-9 campaign. Yes he regressed and he does have to prove something this year, but IMO we have no reason not to think he canít. I remember Mclain on 610 prior to last year talking about a guy that had a system that studied decision making ability of QBs. They made a statement that during year 3 he made the least amount of poor decisions of any starting QB in the NFL. I am not saying that this statement is true and I have no documentation regarding this stat, but what I am saying is with this and the fact that many NFL insiders hold Carr in high regard, I for one really canít argue against that opinion. I am going to give him a chance and I truly believe we will flourish in the not to distant future. If he doesn't, I will be the first one to step up and eat crow....

Vinny
05-26-2006, 03:06 PM
I will call my shot now. Carr will be a pro bowl QB within the next 3 years.....I would hope a 1st overall draft pick makes the Pro Bowl at least once in his first 8 years myself.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 03:09 PM
I will call my shot now. Carr will be a pro bowl QB within the next 3 years.

There will always be those that knock Carr, but prior to the abomination of last season I donít think that number would have been as great as it is today. I think if VY would have come out prior to last year the amount of people calling for the dumping of Carr in favor of VY would have been a lot less. In year 3 he put up real solid numbers and going into last year we all expected great things because of his performance in the 7-9 campaign. Yes he regressed and he does have to prove something this year, but IMO we have no reason not to think he canít. I remember Mclain on 610 prior to last year talking about a guy that had a system that studied decision making ability of QBs. They made a statement that during year 3 he made the least amount of poor decisions of any starting QB in the NFL. I am not saying that this statement is true and I have no documentation regarding this stat, but what I am saying is with this and the fact that many NFL insiders hold Carr in high regard, I for one really canít argue against that opinion. I am going to give him a chance and I truly believe we will flourish in the not to distant future. If he doesn't, I will be the first one to step up and eat crow....

Sir, please. Get in line as I have been waiting for the crow entree for sometime now. Please stay optimistic for Carr to live up to his contract as that is the best way for this offense to get to where it needs to go. That in itself is what we all want and us who just do not see it from the Fresno Freakazoid are dying for that crow.

Long Baller
05-26-2006, 03:17 PM
I would hope a 1st overall draft pick makes the Pro Bowl at least once in his first 8 years myself.

I agree, but I think that has a lot to do with him going to an expansion team. I actually think he can make the pro bowl by next year but I did not want to be too much of a homer.

colts18288
05-26-2006, 03:43 PM
How can you step up in the pocket when the top, right, and left side of the pocket has collapsed? If one guy gets through you can step up... but when multiple breaks in the protection happen... there is no pocket. You just have to bust a$s out of there, if no one is open.

I agree that once he is outside the tackles, that if he is not going to run up field, then he has to throw it out of bounds. That needs to be corrected.

I've been saying this since day 1 around Colts games versus Texans. This poor guy gets no protection. He has about as much protection as a catholic house wife with 13 kids:tease: .

When alot of Carr haters around here see a turn around this season, I just hope most come to realize it was your coaching staff. The coaching tenure was the 2nd worst debacle that I have seen in my entire life. (Take some pleasure in knowing that the Colts had the worst IMO). No coach on the team ever took into account of your teams strenghts and weaknesses. If the blitz get to your Q.B. repeatedly, then you put him in shotgun with 1 or even 2 R.B........They serve as pass protect or a quick screen. The screen works simple because other teams entire front line is in your backfield.

No passing game kills the running game. Your new coach knows passing games. Great Q.B. coach, Dave will progress rapidly and suprise alot of people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt Kub come from Denver? You got to believe playing there he learn quite a bit about the running game. I mean who knows how better to make a running game go better then Denver? How many diffrent 1000+ runners. Some were good yea, but can you honestly say the line had nothing to do with it.

Kub's gonna turn you guy's around, this year close to .500, next year wild card. You guy's got a coach to be proud of, a team that WAS a result of poor coaching. The right approach is all it takes and it all starts in the office.

A lot of you probably think that it's a bit strange a division rival talking up another team, but I see alot of negative posts on the team. I seen them alot as a Colts fan, many of you older fans remember the early Indy Colts.

Peyton's 1st season everyone saying O we should have picked Ryan Leaf:stirpot: Alot of fans dogging their own team that year, but now most believe him to be the best pocket Q.B. in the game, others will believe if and when he gets his ring.

David will come around, play better, impress some people, suprise alot of people. And then :yahoo: .

My predictions for your team this year are Carr wont put up moster stats, but his int ratio is cut by 1/2, sack ratio cut by 2/3, TDs up by 7, Q.B. rating up by 20 to 25 points.

Running game inmproves also by 300+ yards and and 5 TDS.

You guys hit or barely break .500, but everyone sees light at the end of the tunnel.

Long term 2 years consistent wild card hunt for 3-4 years, then possibly division champs for a few more. I have 2 family members that are BIG Denver Fans, I know there coaching staff really well. I knew your old staff well also simple fact of I need to your a division rival. The coaching upgrade is like saying you traded Peyton Manning for Joey Harrington. Yea that much of an upgrade. You guys are gonna be :ok:

hollywood_texan
05-26-2006, 03:47 PM
Here is quote from Carr in the Chroncile:

"There's a place for you to go in this offense every time," Carr said. "There's always an outlet. There shouldn't be any reason to have sacks. They set it up to have three or four guys in the route. There's less pressure on the offensive line. It's on me to get it out of my hands."

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 04:00 PM
Here is quote from Carr in the Chroncile:

"There's a place for you to go in this offense every time," Carr said. "There's always an outlet. There shouldn't be any reason to have sacks. They set it up to have three or four guys in the route. There's less pressure on the offensive line. It's on me to get it out of my hands."

Why reinvent the wheel when he had such success with dump offs to Davis?

Double Barrel
05-26-2006, 04:08 PM
Come on Vinny, why you always got to dog the guy. :)

Dogging someone and telling the truth seem to be divided by very fine line.

I'm no where near as hard on Carr as Vinny, but I don't disagree with his points. The truth hurts sometimes.

Vinny
05-26-2006, 04:19 PM
Dogging someone and telling the truth seem to be divided by very fine line.

I'm no where near as hard on Carr as Vinny, but I don't disagree with his points. The truth hurts sometimes.
All you have to do is search my posts to see that I don't talk crap about Carr. I never start threads about Carr and generally keep out of the Carr discussions for the most part. I have been talking about the same things in his game WAY WAY WAY before most of you other guys caught on to his problems. I haven't said anything new since like 2003....but you can't find one single post in my 8k posts where I knock his character or some of the other silly things I see the so called "Carr-haters" do when they exaggerate for effect. All I do is talk about his game and give my opinion about what I am observing.

Double Barrel
05-26-2006, 06:18 PM
I have been talking about the same things in his game WAY WAY WAY before most of you other guys caught on to his problems.

yep, so true. I really started focussing on your evaluations and how they related to Carr, and they were spot on (I've always appreciated your insight into football). That's why I really paid a LOT of attention to the o-line last year when at the games, and it became evident that it wasn't all the line's fault. This perspective was vindicated when our new coaches admitted that approximately 20 sacks last year were our QB's own doing.

I have the utmost respect for David Carr, the person (as I'm sure Vinny does, as well). But c'mon, we're football fans in a football forum. Personality has nothing to do with on-field performance, and many of the honest evaluations around here seemed to be labeled as "hater" talk.

Things always get tagged with extremes. But somewhere in the middle is honest evaluation, and sometimes it's not pretty. I don't think someone should be called a "homer" or a "hater" because they don't subscribe to one of the blindingly extreme points-of-view.

Ibar_Harry
05-26-2006, 07:49 PM
Be your own judge:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3898813.html

Real interesting read from Justice from interviews with Kubiak and Calhoun.

Kaiser Toro
05-26-2006, 08:05 PM
Be your own judge:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3898813.html

Real interesting read from Justice from interviews with Kubiak and Calhoun.

Serenity now! Honestly I have zero expectations for the offense given a new playbook and question marks on the line and in the backfield. Can't wait to see how the defense looks.:mario:

HOOK'EM
05-28-2006, 03:40 PM
Man, I cant wait for this season to start! Carr's going to tear it up this year!:redtowel: