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View Full Version : Kubiak Vs. Capers


amazingandre
05-16-2006, 05:50 PM
BOBO and I are in this heated debate. WHo is better Capers (any of his 4 years) or Gary Kubiak in his 1st year, as head coach????????

Exascor
05-16-2006, 06:30 PM
Depends on what the criteria are. Some people think wins are everything and a winning team can't have problems. I think you have to look at the entire picture when evaluating a coach. Are the players motivated? Are they playing hard? Did the coaching have a lot of influence on the wins (ie good play calling, basic team strategies...)? Did they play well and lose or did they play bad and lose? Lots of things to compare.

Capers has years of experience as a HC and had one OK season in Houston. 7-9. It wasn't a good season because the team seemed to lose it in the second half of the season. The first 2 seasons were about what was expected. Poor results from a team with little talent.

Kubiak has no experience as a HC but I believe in his systems more than Capers apparent play-not-to-lose gameplan.

That said...If Kubiak was hired in 2002, I don't see much changing in the first 3 years in the win column. I would have expected the team to be a little more competetive in the losses though. Year 4 could have been bad even with Kubiak but I doubt it. At worst either coach should have been able to repeat the previous year's performance of 7-9.

To answer the original question: I'm going with Capers. I don't think Kubiak will reach 7-9 this season but do feel the team will be in more games than games where they are just plain blown out.

amazingandre
05-16-2006, 06:51 PM
don't agree but i do like how you evaluated both and came to jogic, but bobo wow he makes me angry:brickwall anyway ya i know but you said they both should i least repeat the season of 7-9 right? well i htink they will do better because they have the same weapons and more now. i think that Kubiak is doing one thing superb he has the team so hyped it's unreal.... the fans are more excited than recent years. anyway i think that kubiak can take the talent we have and mould (lol) this team into a contender this year, i say w go wild card and possibly win, lets go TEXANS

thunderkyss
05-16-2006, 07:22 PM
Hey.... I'm siding with Bobo on this one.

It would be nice, if Capers would be a little more agressive, and play to win the game on both sides of the ball. That said, there's a fine line, between being aggressive, and being stupid. Why throw the ball, when all we have to do, is run out the clock??

Why Blitz, instead of keeping the ball in front of you, when it's 3rd and 34, and you've got the lead??

We have no clue where Gary is going to fall in regards to that line. & while we'd appreciate an aggressive offense, a complex offense, we don't know that Gary will deliver.....

How much worse can it get?? we may very well find out......

What if Dom did everything he could, to get this team over .500?? But the one thing he wanted to do...... replace David.... was something he couldn't do?? If David is still starting at the end of '06, then we can be assured, that was not the case. If Sage makes more than one start........

In all honesty... what did we expect Capers to do?? He started with nothing. We won some games in '02.... we won some in '03.... we won some in '04... We didn't make the playofs like Jacksonville/Carolina did. But those were different circumstances. different players......

The team went backwards, second half of '04, & in '05. why?? the play book has been scaled back since '02. why?? why have we never pulled our QB to protect him?? If my job is on the line, and I know we have to win games..... & I see my team moving the ball, scoring TDs..... why wouldn't I let them go?? It's not like they were losing their lead before I jumped in... & If I made that decision, to get in the way, and slow the offense down, why would I do it again, the next week..... and the week after, and the week after?? Don't forget, it's my job on the line.

Something doesn't sound right to me..... something else is/was going on, and we won't have a clue, till next season plays itself out.

Trap_Star
05-16-2006, 07:55 PM
This poll is best suited for after the 06 season...:poker:

Hulk75
05-16-2006, 08:53 PM
The people that voted for Dom are lying to themselves.

tsip
05-16-2006, 08:53 PM
"why??"

Your questions all have one thing in common--all were decisions/choices made by Capers. Too, these decisions all contributed to one thing-- a losing team. You've identified many of the things that Capers could have done to put us on a winning track but did not. Instead, he made choices that gave the team no chance to win. Coaches. Players. Game plans. Defense/offensive schemes. When you 'add up' all the choices'decisions that Capers made, they translate into 2/14.

Capers was in charge. He was not a puppet. McNair did not hire Caper's to build the worse team in the NFL but, rather--from day one-- to be a top team among its peers.

Brick wall. You can climb it. you can go around it. You can dig under it. Heck, you can even blow it up. But not Capers, no way. Dom was determined he was going to move that brick wall. He failed to do so in Houston. He failed to do so in Carolina, and not learning from his mistakes in those 2 places is probally why he'll never be a HC in the NFL again.:brickwall

Capers had one goal in mind and that was for 'his' team to be in a position to win the game in the 4th qtr, and his teams met that goal many times. Winning was not a requirement Think about it. If your goal is to win in the 4th qtr, you've got to do 1 of 2 things. If your'e ahead, you got to keep the other team from scoring. If you're behind, you've got to score. This means you have to prepare your team to be able to do both, and the Texans were not. The Texans were only coached to get to 'point A' and not 'point B.' Effective game planning and making adjustments were not a part of Caper's 'resume.' Unfortunately, getting to 'point A' meant success in Caper's Philosophy.

For me, it would be a 'hoot' to watch Capers be a HC of a losing NFL team, not a 'new' expansion team. However, for the Caper's supporters, I believe he would face many of the same obstacles as he did in Houston/Carolina--new coaches/players/new offense/defense.,etc. And, of course, he would face these challenges the same way he has in the past....sorry, but every year begins anew for every team, regardless of age.

Kubiak is nothing like Capers. Winning, like Lombardi said, is everything. More than ever, the NFL is becoming a part of the 'what have you done for me lately' concept. Each season is a new one and that means what worked last year or the year before or even the last game, may not work today. Too, being a winning coach in the past doesn't translate into tenure when you have a losing season-- gone are the coaching 'eras' of people like Tom Landry. Then, good/experienced coaches were 'few and far between'--now, these coaches are everywhere. Dom Capers got something another coach may never get again in the NFL-- 4 yrs to build winning programs on TWO NFL teams.

IMO, the Texans 2006 season will evolve into an 'eye opening' realization that will translate into a 'fan fun ' season. And, finally, this time next year-as it should be-Dom Capers will be a faded memory..............:texflag:

Bobo
05-16-2006, 09:23 PM
"why??"

Your questions all have one thing in common--all were decisions/choices made by Capers. Too, these decisions all contributed to one thing-- a losing team. You've identified many of the things that Capers could have done to put us on a winning track but did not. Instead, he made choices that gave the team no chance to win. Coaches. Players. Game plans. Defense/offensive schemes. When you 'add up' all the choices'decisions that Capers made, they translate into 2/14.

Capers was in charge. He was not a puppet. McNair did not hire Caper's to build the worse team in the NFL but, rather--from day one-- to be a top team among its peers.

Brick wall. You can climb it. you can go around it. You can dig under it. Heck, you can even blow it up. But not Capers, no way. Dom was determined he was going to move that brick wall. He failed to do so in Houston. He failed to do so in Carolina, and not learning from his mistakes in those 2 places is probally why he'll never be a HC in the NFL again.:brickwall

Capers had one goal in mind and that was for 'his' team to be in a position to win the game in the 4th qtr, and his teams met that goal many times. Winning was not a requirement Think about it. If your goal is to win in the 4th qtr, you've got to do 1 of 2 things. If your'e ahead, you got to keep the other team from scoring. If you're behind, you've got to score. This means you have to prepare your team to be able to do both, and the Texans were not. The Texans were only coached to get to 'point A' and not 'point B.' Effective game planning and making adjustments were not a part of Caper's 'resume.' Unfortunately, getting to 'point A' meant success in Caper's Philosophy.

For me, it would be a 'hoot' to watch Capers be a HC of a losing NFL team, not a 'new' expansion team. However, for the Caper's supporters, I believe he would face many of the same obstacles as he did in Houston/Carolina--new coaches/players/new offense/defense.,etc. And, of course, he would face these challenges the same way he has in the past....sorry, but every year begins anew for every team, regardless of age.

Kubiak is nothing like Capers. Winning, like Lombardi said, is everything. More than ever, the NFL is becoming a part of the 'what have you done for me lately' concept. Each season is a new one and that means what worked last year or the year before or even the last game, may not work today. Too, being a winning coach in the past doesn't translate into tenure when you have a losing season-- gone are the coaching 'eras' of people like Tom Landry. Then, good/experienced coaches were 'few and far between'--now, these coaches are everywhere. Dom Capers got something another coach may never get again in the NFL-- 4 yrs to build winning programs on TWO NFL teams.

IMO, the Texans 2006 season will evolve into an 'eye opening' realization that will translate into a 'fan fun ' season. And, finally, this time next year-as it should be-Dom Capers will be a faded memory..............:texflag:

Umm, when you add up all the decisions that Capers made, they also included a team that improved every year except the last and a team that hit 7-9 in just their third year of existence. It seems that your post indicates that you have a very selective memory indeed. As far as a "fan fun" season this year, I don't think so -- IMO. In fact, I think you'll find that aura of excitement and anticipation that characterized Capers tenure strangely missing this year. In fact, I know it will -- at least for me.

Kaiser Toro
05-16-2006, 09:39 PM
So may ways to qualify my answer, but to go with one it would be excitement. The fan in me desperately needs to be excited due to the last four seasons being anything but. I really do feel that I will be out of my seat this year due to cheers more so than jeers. I am a die hard, but even diehards need to be charged.

Bobo
05-16-2006, 09:46 PM
So may ways to qualify my answer, but to go with one it would be excitement. The fan in me desperately needs to be excited due to the last four seasons being anything but. I really do feel that I will be out of my seat this year due to cheers more so than jeers. I am a die hard, but even diehards need to be charged.

I think anybody who has actually been to the games in the past four years will see this statement as just another case of either revisionist history or a very, very failing memory. You can legitimately say that year four was not all that exciting -- though the Rams game was a great one, even though the Texans lost. But for those who were not there from 2002-4, let me clearly and succinctly inform you that Reliant Stadium was indeed rocking. And not just selectively. It was going crazy every ... single ... game. After all, the opposition doesn't get socked with those delay of game penalties if your fans aren't going crazy. And if Kaiser Toro was even in Reliant Stadium during the first three years, he must have been spending all of his time in the parking lot eating barbecue. Unfortunately, I do not see that same kind of intensity this year. I don't see Kubiak really bringing anything substantial to the table except a lot of years as an assistant -- some which have been good, others not so good. I think most fans will be sitting on their hands, waiting for something to happen.

powerfuldragon
05-16-2006, 09:55 PM
i think this year it could go either way. eventually, however, kubiak will emerge as the better coach.

Kaiser Toro
05-16-2006, 10:00 PM
I think anybody who has actually been to the games in the past four years will see this statement as just another case of either revisionist history or a very, very failing memory. You can legitimately say that year four was not all that exciting -- though the Rams game was a great one, even though the Texans lost. But for those who were not there from 2002-4, let me clearly and succinctly inform you that Reliant Stadium was indeed rocking. And not just selectively. It was going crazy every ... single ... game. After all, the opposition doesn't get socked with those delay of game penalties if your fans aren't going crazy. And if Kaiser Toro was even in Reliant Stadium during the first three years, he must have been spending all of his time in the parking lot eating barbecue. Unfortunately, I do not see that same kind of intensity this year. I don't see Kubiak really bringing anything substantial to the table except a lot of years as an assistant -- some which have been good, others not so good. I think most fans will be sitting on their hands, waiting for something to happen.

My whereabouts are definetely known during home games and it is in section 124. If Capers ball the last four years excited you then I have the Days of Our Lives: Let's Get Physical DVD box set for you at $99 in nine easy installments.

I will give you that the defense has been really the only side of the ball that brought us out of our seats.

I just do not understand why you are so spiteful regarding Kubiak. I am the first to critique someone as long as they have a record in their role as a Texan. But what gives you the goose bumps, or lack there of, from Kubiak not putting together a better product than Capers? Please give me something tangible.

Bobo
05-16-2006, 10:22 PM
My whereabouts are definetely known during home games and it is in section 124. If Capers ball the last four years excited you then I have the Days of Our Lives: Let's Get Physical DVD box set for you at $99 in nine easy installments.

I will give you that the defense has been really the only side of the ball that brought us out of our seats.

I just do not understand why you are so spiteful regarding Kubiak. I am the first to critique someone as long as they have a record in their role as a Texan. But what gives you the goose bumps, or lack there of, from Kubiak not putting together a better product than Capers? Please give me something tangible.

Umm, you just gave "something tangible" and you didn't even know it. And I quote: "I am the first to critique someone as long as they have a record in their role as a Texan." Fact is, Kubiak has NO RECORD AT ALL as a head coach anywhere -- maybe not even Pop Warner! And this is the guy they pick to replace a man who led the team to the cusp of a .500 record in just three years with nothing but NFL rejects and raw rookies to work with? Nuff said.

Kaiser Toro
05-16-2006, 10:32 PM
Umm, you just gave "something tangible" and you didn't even know it. And I quote: "I am the first to critique someone as long as they have a record in their role as a Texan." Fact is, Kubiak has NO RECORD AT ALL as a head coach anywhere -- maybe not even Pop Warner! And this is the guy they pick to replace a man who led the team to the cusp of a .500 record in just three years with nothing but NFL rejects and raw rookies to work with? Nuff said.

Nuff saying nothing about nothing. The subject was excitement. The tangible request has to do with your spite.

Coach C.
05-16-2006, 10:35 PM
Bottomline Kubiak comes from a nice pedigree. He may be one of those guys like Capers and Mularkey and Saunders who are better assistant coaches than head coaches, but from what I know of the man he should have the better results. Hell he definately has a better team than Dom ever had.

Bobo
05-16-2006, 11:19 PM
Nuff saying nothing about nothing. The subject was excitement. The tangible request has to do with your spite.

When somebody has no experience and a spotty record, that has nothing to do with spite but has everything to do with questioning somebody's qualifications. If you've ever been to a job interview, you should realize that. Just because somebody doesn't hire somebody for a job due to lack of qualifications does not mean they are being spiteful.

Kaiser Toro
05-16-2006, 11:22 PM
When somebody has no experience and a spotty record, that has nothing to do with spite but has everything to do with questioning somebody's qualifications. If you've ever been to a job interview, you should realize that. Just because somebody doesn't hire somebody for a job due to lack of qualifications does not mean they are being spiteful.

Yeah I know that side of the debate, but why do you dislike him? Is it the hype?

Bobo
05-16-2006, 11:24 PM
Bottomline Kubiak comes from a nice pedigree. He may be one of those guys like Capers and Mularkey and Saunders who are better assistant coaches than head coaches, but from what I know of the man he should have the better results. Hell he definately has a better team than Dom ever had.

A.) His "pedigree" has been spotty. Some success with Elway but spotty achievement after Elway left the building. B.) Capers was a fine head coach and to deny his accomplishments in his first three years is revisionist, disingenuous and unfair. C.) Seeing that he has absolutely no record as a head coach anywhere, I question your "knowledge of the man" in this capacity and your declaration of better results. D.) Seeing that most of the good players on his team are from the Capers era, I have to wonder why you say he has a better team than Dom ever had.

Bobo
05-16-2006, 11:27 PM
Yeah I know that side of the debate, but why do you dislike him? Is it the hype?

I think he is unqualified for the position and that he is several steps back from the person who should still be there. To think that I "personally" don't like him is pretty ridiculous since I wouldn't know him if I walked into him on the street. As far as the "hype" goes -- what hype?

Kaiser Toro
05-16-2006, 11:30 PM
I think he is unqualified for the position and that he is several steps back from the person who should still be there. To think that I "personally" don't like him is pretty ridiculous since I wouldn't know him if I walked into him on the street. As far as the "hype" goes -- what hype?

Easy Cochise. Thank you for the first sentence. I could care less if you know him or not and recognize the sarcasm regarding hype. Looks like a win/win.

Bobo
05-16-2006, 11:37 PM
Easy Cochise. Thank you for the first sentence. I could care less if you know him or not and recognize the sarcasm regarding hype. Looks like a win/win.

You know something? I could care less if I know him as well. As far as the sarcasm regarding the hype, heck. I didn't even know if there was or wasn't hype regarding him or not. So if that was your point, congratulations. I think.

texan279
05-16-2006, 11:55 PM
A.) His "pedigree" has been spotty. Some success with Elway but spotty achievement after Elway left the building. B.) Capers was a fine head coach and to deny his accomplishments in his first three years is revisionist, disingenuous and unfair. C.) Seeing that he has absolutely no record as a head coach anywhere, I question your "knowledge of the man" in this capacity and your declaration of better results. D.) Seeing that most of the good players on his team are from the Capers era, I have to wonder why you say he has a better team than Dom ever had.

Mario Williams, Eric Winston, Anthony Weaver, Kevin Walter, Charles Spencer, Ephraim Salaam, Wali Rainer, Eric Moulds, Mike Flanagan, Jameel Cook, Sam Cowart, N.D. Kalu, Jeb Putzier, all brought in during the Kubiak era,by far the best off season we have ever had and the most talent we have added in one offseason.

ledzeppelin229
05-17-2006, 12:09 AM
No record > 2-14 record

Kubiak has only been here for one offseason. I would only hope that the Capers era had more good players. Although the main "good" players that come to mind are...AJ, DD, D-Rob, Pitts, Mathis...ummm...AG was pretty good for awhile. Sharper had his moments. Both of those guys are gone though. Faggins was a pretty good value pick. Everyone else has something to prove or has proven to be crap or gone from the team due to FA/Age..

Bobo
05-17-2006, 12:19 AM
No record > 2-14 record

Kubiak has only been here for one offseason. I would only hope that the Capers era had more good players. Although the main "good" players that come to mind are...AJ, DD, D-Rob, Pitts, Mathis...ummm...AG was pretty good for awhile. Sharper had his moments. Both of those guys are gone though. Faggins was a pretty good value pick. Everyone else has something to prove or has proven to be crap or gone from the team due to FA/Age..

I notice you didn't say no record is better than 7-9. Tell me. Is no record better than, say, 6-10? How about 3-11? Be careful how you answer this!

Bobo
05-17-2006, 12:24 AM
Mario Williams, Eric Winston, Anthony Weaver, Kevin Walter, Charles Spencer, Ephraim Salaam, Wali Rainer, Eric Moulds, Mike Flanagan, Jameel Cook, Sam Cowart, N.D. Kalu, Jeb Putzier, all brought in during the Kubiak era,by far the best off season we have ever had and the most talent we have added in one offseason.

That is the mantra, but I would say that this is somewhat mediocre. Williams was a first rounder, so was AJ who was drafted by Capers. Winston was a third rounder. Davis was a fourth rounder, again, grabbed by Capers. The rest of these guys are highly questionable. It's not like they went out and grabbed a guy with the abilities of Muhsin Muhammad, Tony Gonzalez, Jonathan Ogden or Ray Lewis. After all, Cowart and Kalu may not even start, Weaver can't rush the QB effectively, Moulds is in his declining years and Flanagan is no spring chicken either, Cook can hardly be seen as any better than his predecessor, Putzier was not even necessary due to the need to keep the TE in to protect the QB until the situation gets straightened out, and Walter has a grand total of 30 catches in three years. Now, is that "by far the best off season" the Texans have had? If so, then the other offseasons haven't been much to write home about either. From what I see, these changes really weren't anything of much consequence and were simply transactions made so Kubiak could put his little stamp on his team and call it his own -- at least in some form or another since the core of the team still comes from the previous regime.

ledzeppelin229
05-17-2006, 12:26 AM
I notice you didn't say no record is better than 7-9. Tell me. Is no record better than, say, 6-10? How about 3-11? Be careful how you answer this!

The most recent record trumps the record before it. He might have been 7-9 at one point but as far as most recent samples, 2-14 carries more weight. We aren't talking about other coaches either or the hindsight associated with them. This is Dom Capers and the little team that couldn't.

Bobo
05-17-2006, 12:28 AM
The most recent record trumps the record before it. He might have been 7-9 at one point but as far as most recent samples, 2-14 carries more weight. We aren't talking about other coaches either or the hindsight associated with them. This is Dom Capers and the little team that couldn't.

SNAP! You fell into the trap! You get one chance to pull out of it before the trapper shows up!

ledzeppelin229
05-17-2006, 12:33 AM
You fell into the trap. I'll give you one chance to pull out of it.

I don't see any trap. Under Capers: 4-12, 5-11, 7-9....2-14. And not just a bad luck 2-14, an extremely inept looking 2-14. Of Capers records with the team, 2-14 is the most relevant because it's the most recent.

Bobo
05-17-2006, 12:39 AM
I don't see any trap. Under Capers: 4-12, 5-11, 7-9....2-14. And not just a bad luck 2-14, an extremely inept looking 2-14. Of Capers records with the team, 2-14 is the most relevant because it's the most recent.

When Paul Brown went 3-11, that was his most recent record. When Holmgren went 6-10, that was his most recent record. When Cowher went 6-10 as well, that was his most recent record. Of course, you can't simply say "other coaches' situations don't count." If you are going to pass judgment on a coach, you have to have some basis on making that judgment and the only way you can do it is by finding examples of what happened in previous and similar situations. Oops, here comes that trapper! he must have heard the trap snap! He sees his trapped prey and he ... :hunter:

ledzeppelin229
05-17-2006, 12:45 AM
When Paul Brown went 3-11, that was his most recent record. When Holmgren went 6-10, that was his most recent record. When Cowher went 6-10 as well, that was his most recent record. Of course, you can't simply say "other coaches' situations don't count." If you are going to pass judgment on a coach, you have to have some basis on making that judgment and the only way you can do it is by finding examples of what happened in previous and similar situations. Oops, here comes that trapper! he must have heard the trap snap! He sees his trapped prey and he ... :hunter:

Yes, I've seen this argument in your posts several times. I don't like comparing coaches to other coaches. You've picked 3 ideal turnarounds and conveniently ignored the multitude of mediocre to bad coaches that had crappy records and had crappy records the season after it. The judgement of Capers should have nothing to do with the careers of Brown, Cowher, Holmgren.

texan279
05-17-2006, 12:46 AM
That is the mantra, but I would say that this is somewhat mediocre. Williams was a first rounder, so was AJ who was drafted by Capers. Winston was a third rounder. Davis was a fourth rounder, again, grabbed by Capers. The rest of these guys are highly questionable. It's not like they went out and grabbed a guy with the abilities of Muhsin Muhammad, Tony Gonzalez, Jonathan Ogden or Ray Lewis. After all, Cowart and Kalu may not even start, Weaver can't rush the QB effectively, Moulds is in his declining years and Flanagan is no spring chicken either, Cook can hardly be seen as any better than his predecessor, Putzier was not even necessary due to the need to keep the TE in to protect the QB until the situation gets straightened out, and Walter has a grand total of 30 catches in three years. Now, is that "by far the best off season" the Texans have had? If so, then the other offseasons haven't been much to write home about either.

Moulds is 33 and had 816 yards receiving last season. Jimmy Smith just retired at the age of 37. I am not worried about Mould's or Flanagan's age. Putzier was #3 in receiving last season with the Broncos, he will be used in the passing game. Walter only had 30 catches in 3 seasons, but he was the Bengal's #4 WR behind Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, and Chris Henry. Those 3 guys are no scrubs. Walter also had 33 special teams tackles. Walter also has good size and speed being 6'3'' 214 and running a 4.59 40. He also catches everything thrown near him. In 3 seasons of college ball, he had 211 receptions for 2838 yards and an average ypc of 13.5 and 20 TD's. And yes, I still think this is the best offseason we have ever had.

Bobo
05-17-2006, 12:54 AM
Moulds is 33 and had 816 yards receiving last season. Jimmy Smith just retired at the age of 37. I am not worried about Mould's or Flanagan's age. Putzier was #3 in receiving last season with the Broncos, he will be used in the passing game. Walter only had 30 catches in 3 seasons, but he was the Bengal's #4 WR behind Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, and Chris Henry. Those 3 guys are no scrubs. Walter also had 33 special teams tackles. Walter also has good size and speed being 6'3'' 214 and running a 4.59 40. He also catches everything thrown near him. In 3 seasons of college ball, he had 211 receptions for 2838 yards and an average ypc of 13.5 and 20 TD's. And yes, I still think this is the best offseason we have ever had.

Moulds production has declined every year. That's been discussed previously. He did have more yards than Gaffney, but not any more catches. And he only had three TDs. That's not all that much of an improvement. If Flanagan's injury in 2004 and his age doesn't bother you, then perhaps it should. Putzier won't catch many passes if Carr is on his back because they are sending him out on futile passing routes instead of keeping him in to block. That's also been discussed. As far as Walter goes, you're only giving more cause for concern. His production has been non-existent and you are expecting a fourth-stringer for the Bengals to actually contribute to the Texans. That's asking quite a lot. The only stats that matter are the ones he has made in the NFL. His college days are way, way beyond him. As far as this being "the best offseason the Texans have had," well, I certainly don't see much there. Lots of second-team guys and over-the-hill gang members does not a great offseason make. Seems to me that its very easy for Kubiak to meet what I would see as minimal expectations of yours while you were expecting the moon from Capers.

texan279
05-17-2006, 01:19 AM
Moulds production has declined every year. That's been discussed previously. He did have more yards than Gaffney, but not any more catches. And he only had three TDs. That's not all that much of an improvement. If Flanagan's injury in 2004 and his age doesn't bother you, then perhaps it should. Putzier won't catch many passes if Carr is on his back because they are sending him out on futile passing routes instead of keeping him in to block. That's also been discussed. As far as Walter goes, you're only giving more cause for concern. His production has been non-existent and you are expecting a fourth-stringer for the Bengals to actually contribute to the Texans. That's asking quite a lot. The only stats that matter are the ones he has made in the NFL. His college days are way, way beyond him. As far as this being "the best offseason the Texans have had," well, I certainly don't see much there. Lots of second-team guys and over-the-hill gang members does not a great offseason make. Seems to me that its very easy for Kubiak to meet what I would see as minimal expectations of yours while you were expecting the moon from Capers.

Gaff had 55 catches for 492 yards, 8.9 ypc and 2 TD's last season. Moulds had 81 catches for 816 yards, 10.1 ypc, and 4 Td's last season. Moulds production has not declined every year, only fluctuated, he has had 4 seasons with over 1000 yards receiving, 2 season over 900 yards, and 4 season with less than 900 yards, and they have all been mixed. Flanagan's injury is done and over with, he started 14 games last season and only had 2 penalties against him and only allowed 2 sacks. That is just plain improvement on our offensive line, I don't care if he is 33 or 133, he got the job done. As far as Putzier, you act as if he doesn't stay in to block Carr will get killed or something, there are 5 guys on the line and a FB and RB who block also. As far as Walter, he has only been out of college 3 seasons, and what kind of stats do you expect him to put up behind Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, and Chris Henry? Last season Walter had 19 catches for 211 yards, 11.1 ypc, and 1 TD, all behind 2 great WR's and one good WR. Compare that to Derick Armstrong last season who had 9 catches for 115 yards and 0 TD's behind AJ, Gaff, and Bradford. I never expected the moon from Capers, but to go from 4-12 to 5-11 to 7-9 to 2-14 is pretty horrible IMO. By our 4th season we should at least have been up to 8-8, but we go from 7-9 to 2-14 instead.

Bobo
05-17-2006, 01:27 AM
Gaff had 55 catches for 492 yards, 8.9 ypc and 2 TD's last season. Moulds had 81 catches for 816 yards, 10.1 ypc, and 4 Td's last season. Flanagan's injury is done and over with, he started 14 games last season and only had 2 penalties against him and only allowed 2 sacks. That is just plain improvement on the offensive line, I don't care if he is 33 or 133, he got the job done. As far as Putzier, you act as if he doesn't stay in to block Carr will get killed or something, there are 5 guys on the line and a FB and RB who block also. As far as Walter, he has only been out of college 3 seasons, and what kind of stats do you expect him to put up behind Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, and Chris Henry? Last season Walter had 19 catches for 211 yards, 11.1 ypc, and 1 TD, all behind 2 great WR's and one good WR. Compare that to Derick Armstrong last season who had 9 catches for 115 yards and 0 TD's behind AJ, Gaff, and Bradford. I never expected the moon from Capers, but to go from 4-12 to 5-11 to 7-9 to 2-14 is pretty horrible IMO. By our 4th season we should at least have been up to 8-8, but we go from 7-9 to 2-14 instead.

Moulds YPC and his TDs have steadily declined. You forgot to note that Moulds has just 10 TDs in the last three years as well. If Carr would have been able to get some passes off, then perhaps Gaffney would have caught more passes for more yards. After all, the guy who led the team in TDs was Corey Bradford -- with three. Some guy who has been in the NFL 11 years and had an injury that kept him out for almost the entire season in 2004 isn't all that reliable a pickup, let's be realistic. As for the TE, the Texans had a hard enough time blocking folks with the TE in last year. And at times the opposition was only rushing three or four guys. It will be even worse with one less guy there. As for Walter, bottom line: He's been in the league 3 years with hardly any production. He's been a fourth stringer for Cincy and you are expecting that kind of guy to contribute? If you didn't like Capers going from 7-9 to 2-14, then you certainly wouldn't have stood for a guy named Cowher who went from 13-3 to 6-10 in just two years, now, would you? After all, let's be fair. Now, no one is arguing that the fourth season wasn't a setback. But as I've said plenty of times before, other coaches have had the same kinds of setbacks in similar situations and righted the ship. Capers didn't get that opportunity -- and he should have.

Bobo
05-17-2006, 01:35 AM
Yes, I've seen this argument in your posts several times. I don't like comparing coaches to other coaches. You've picked 3 ideal turnarounds and conveniently ignored the multitude of mediocre to bad coaches that had crappy records and had crappy records the season after it. The judgement of Capers should have nothing to do with the careers of Brown, Cowher, Holmgren.

If you don't compare coaches with other coaches, then how can you say that Kubiak is going to be better? After all, that is making a comparison, now, isn't it? Seems to me that if you are going to judge performance, the scale is set up by other coaches' achievements. It just seems to me that you "don't like comparing coaches" because you simply can't contradict the examples I have brought up.

ojthecat
05-17-2006, 01:40 AM
But as I've said plenty of times before, other coaches have had the same kinds of setbacks in similar situations and righted the ship. Capers didn't get that opportunity -- and he should have.

Bobo, Last year our Texans were one of the worst teams in the history of the NFL -- Period. They were a disgrace and Bob McNair had to do something.
Firing Capers was called for and I do not know of anyone other than you that thinks he should have been give one more year. The fans were not comming to the games what is the owner supposed to do?

Bobo
05-17-2006, 01:46 AM
Bobo, Last year our Texans were one of the worst teams in the history of the NFL -- Period. They were a disgrace and Bob McNair had to do something.
Firing Capers was called for and I do not know of anyone other than you that thinks he should have been give one more year. The fans were not comming to the games what is the owner supposed to do?

The owner was supposed to do what the owner of the Steelers, Bengals and Seahawks did. The fans would come to the games again if Capers was still here and you'd be offering the same arguments I'm offering now if he did just that. Firing Capers was as much called for as the dismissal of Cowher when he went from 13-3 to 6-10 and when Paul Brown went from 8-6 to 3-11. Yep, I may be the only guy on this board who wanted Capers to stay on. But then again, it seems like I'm also one of the few who knew the facts about Paul Brown and the two SB coaches of this year and one of the few folks who believe that Capers first three years were good ones. Obviously, those who think Capers was "awful" simply aren't giving Capers his just due and have somehow come down with selective amnesia when it comes to his tenure here. Sometimes it's better to be right rather than wrong, no matter how many people are mistaken. And I will also remind you that only two guys out of the entire Hebrew nation voted to go into the Promised Land.

texan279
05-17-2006, 01:47 AM
Moulds YPC and his TDs have steadily declined. You forgot to note that Moulds has just 10 TDs in the last three years as well. If Carr would have been able to get some passes off, then perhaps Gaffney would have caught more passes for more yards. After all, the guy who led the team in TDs was Corey Bradford -- with three. Some guy who has been in the NFL 11 years and had an injury that kept him out for almost the entire season in 2004 isn't all that reliable a pickup, let's be realistic. As for the TE, the Texans had a hard enough time blocking folks with the TE in last year. And at times the opposition was only rushing three or four guys. It will be even worse with one less guy there. As for Walter, bottom line: He's been in the league 3 years with hardly any production. He's been a fourth stringer for Cincy and you are expecting that kind of guy to contribute? If you didn't like Capers going from 7-9 to 2-14, then you certainly wouldn't have stood for a guy named Cowher who went from 13-3 to 6-10 in just two years, now, would you? After all, let's be fair. Now, no one is arguing that the fourth season wasn't a setback. But as I've said plenty of times before, other coaches have had the same kinds of setbacks in similar situations and righted the ship. Capers didn't get that opportunity -- and he should have.

Moulds production has not steadily declined, only fluctuated. And Moulds has been Buffalo's leading WR for 8 straight seasons.
Rec Yards Y/R TD

20 279 13.9 2
29 294 10.1 0
67 1368 20.4 9
65 994 15.3 7
94 1326 14.1 5
67 904 13.5 5
100 1287 12.9 10
64 780 12.2 1
88 1043 11.9 5
81 816 10.1 4

As far as Flanagan, the guy came back last season and started 14 games and did a helluva job with no problems. Just because he was injured in 2004 means squat. With that mindset we should give up on DD since he was injured last season and hasn't recovered from a knee scope in 5 months. As far as the TE goes, last season we had one good blocking TE in Bruener. And there is a difference between going from 7-9 to 2-14 and going from 13-3 to 6-10. 6-10 is one game off from where we were at two seasons ago which was our best season to date. And Cowher went from 13-3 to 10-5-1 then to 6-10 then to 15-1 then 11-5. So Cowher's worst season in 13 seasons is one game worse than our best season in 4 seasons.

Bobo
05-17-2006, 02:04 AM
Moulds production has not steadily declined, only fluctuated.
Rec Yards Y/R TD

20 279 13.9 2
29 294 10.1 0
67 1368 20.4 9
65 994 15.3 7
94 1326 14.1 5
67 904 13.5 5
100 1287 12.9 10
64 780 12.2 1
88 1043 11.9 5
81 816 10.1 4

As far as Flanagan, the guy came back last season and started 14 games and did a helluva job with no problems. Just because he was injured in 2004 means squat. With that mindset we should give up on DD since he was injured last season and hasn't recovered from a knee scope in 5 months. As far as the TE goes, last season we had one good blocking TE in Bruener. And there is a difference between going from 7-9 to 2-14 and going from 13-3 to 6-10. 6-10 is one game off from where we were at two seasons ago which was our best season to date. And Cowher went from 13-3 to 10-5-1 then to 6-10 then to 15-1 then 11-5. So Cowher's worst season in 13 seasons is one game worse than our best season in 4 seasons.

Moulds YPC -- declining. Catches -- also declining. TDs -- declining and not a lot of them there to begin with. The only thing that's not declining: his age. Too bad for him. As far as Cowher goes, he took over a team that had been around for a long, long time and had an infrastructure that had been around for, well, years. Capers took over a team that, well, hadn't even existed before! Of course his record over four years was not going to be as good as Cowher's since Cowher had a much more stable situation and took over a team that had been to Super Bowls! Seems like you're really stretching the bounds of credulity in trying to respond to my Capers vs. other coaches analogy. Actually, there is a difference in going from 7-9 to 2-14 and going from 13-3 to 6-10. Going from 13-3 to 6-10 is much, much worse both in terms of total games and also due to the fact that you have taken an established winning team and turned it into a loser. And let us also remember than Capers never will get a chance to right the ship like Cowher did. Thus your statement about what he did after going 6-10 only buttresses my argument about what Capers might have been able to do if he stayed on. I don't think that you can say if a guy who has been in the league for 11 years gets hurt and misses almost an entire year that his injury "doesn't mean squat." Especially a serious knee injury. That's being kind of naive, doncha think? When you go through something like that, it's sure to affect you in the long run. And I don't think you got anywhere when you said the Texans had one good blocking TE. If anything, it only helps bolster my point in that the Texans need to keep a TE in to block even moreso since they had problems with pass protection even when the TE stayed in.

texan279
05-17-2006, 02:17 AM
Moulds YPC -- declining. Catches -- also declining. TDs -- declining and not a lot of them there to begin with. The only thing that's not declining: his age. Too bad for him. As far as Cowher goes, he took over a team that had been around for a long, long time and had an infrastructure that had been around for, well, years. Capers took over a team that, well, hadn't even existed before! Of course his record over four years was not going to be as good as Cowher's since Cowher had a much more stable situation and took over a team that had been to Super Bowls! Seems like you're really stretching the bounds of credulity in trying to respond to my Capers vs. other coaches analogy. Actually, there is a difference in going from 7-9 to 2-14 and going from 13-3 to 6-10. Going from 13-3 to 6-10 is much, much worse both in terms of total games and also due to the fact that you have taken an established winning team and turned it into a loser. And let us also remember than Capers never will get a chance to right the ship like Cowher did. Thus your statement about what he did after going 6-10 only buttresses my argument about what Capers might have been able to do if he stayed on. I don't think that you can say if a guy who has been in the league for 11 years gets hurt and misses almost an entire year that his injury "doesn't mean squat." That's being kind of naive, doncha think? When you go through something like that, it's sure to affect you in the long run. And I don't think you got anywhere when you said the Texans had one good blocking TE. If anything, it only helps bolster my point in that the Texans need to keep a TE in to block even moreso since they had problems with pass protection even when the TE stayed in.

Who has Moulds had throwing to him the last 3 season? Kelly Holcumb, J.P. Losman, and Drew Bledsoe. Not an all star lineup at QB. And the last 2 seasons Buffalo has had Lee Evans across the field from Moulds, so neither will put up 1200 yards and 12 TD's, in fact the last 2 season they have put up similar numbers yardage wise. And as far as Cowher goes, before he came along the last time the Steelers won 10 games or more was 1983. Cowher took over in 1992 and went 11-5 in his first season. As far as Flanagan, the guy came back last season and did his job with no problems. As far as keeping a TE in to block, fullbacks and running backs can also block.

ojthecat
05-17-2006, 02:18 AM
Bobo, How many winning seasons has Capers ever had? Jimmy Johnson fired Tom Landry and no one can say that did not work out. You seam to think that Kubiak has no experiance that is flat out wrong. He was a NFL QB and we have had our best offseason to date end of story.

tsip
05-17-2006, 04:58 AM
"Seeing that most of the good players on his team are from the Capers era, I have to wonder why you say he has a better team than Dom ever had."

Aren't you kind of getting ahead of yourself on this one? Why don't you wait until the final roster is set before the first game. Of course, we can't replace the entire Caper's roster 'over night,' but I bet Kubiak gets better performace from the entire team, including Caper's selection of players.

I'm still waiting an answer from you on why Capers was 1 of only 2 HC that was not hired as a HC/Coor/ or position coach last year after leaving their previous job? And, for now, how many more years would it have taken for Capers to field a winning team if he'd stayed? Too, can you say anything about Capers without 'making excuses' for him?

tsip
05-17-2006, 05:03 AM
When Paul Brown went 3-11, that was his most recent record. When Holmgren went 6-10, that was his most recent record. When Cowher went 6-10 as well, that was his most recent record. Of course, you can't simply say "other coaches' situations don't count." If you are going to pass judgment on a coach, you have to have some basis on making that judgment and the only way you can do it is by finding examples of what happened in previous and similar situations. Oops, here comes that trapper! he must have heard the trap snap! He sees his trapped prey and he ... :hunter:

You set the trap for yourself!! What do these other coaches have in common that Capers never came close to? Hint--answer is kinda important.


" waiting for something to happen."
Bobo, what Texans games were you watching? First, what did Capers make happen last year except losing? Fans supporting Capers? Did you see the empty seats last year? My seats are on the 50 yd line, about 20 rows up--maybe I just missed all the excitement and happy fans...nottttttttttttt

SESupergenius
05-17-2006, 08:07 AM
Bobo, while I may agree with you that we jumped the gun a little and that Capers should have at least been here another year, your comparison of Capers 13-3 to 6-10 is off base considering that Cowher had already established himself as a a solid coach through the years, something that Capers hasn't. Cowher estabished a winner percentage of 67% his 1st 4 years after previous coach Chuck Noll notched only 47% his last 4 years. Capers' best year was a good one, but certainly not a trend nor in the neighborhood of Cowhers. If you saw the games last year you could just tell that the team had lost all confidence and wasn't playing with heart, something that is a direct reflection of the coaching staff. Once you lose that, just like he did with Carolina, it's extremely hard to get it back. Capers' biggest foley has always been his offense and it showed its head here in Texas.

TEXANRED
05-17-2006, 08:13 AM
To answer the original question: I'm going with Capers. I don't think Kubiak will reach 7-9 this season but do feel the team will be in more games than games where they are just plain blown out.
Has anyone ever called you a pessimist? Know of anyone?:)

tsip
05-17-2006, 08:50 AM
Bobo, while I may agree with you that we jumped the gun a little and that Capers should have at least been here another year, your comparison of Capers 13-3 to 6-10 is off base considering that Cowher had already established himself as a a solid coach through the years, something that Capers hasn't. Cowher estabished a winner percentage of 67% his 1st 4 years after previous coach Chuck Noll notched only 47% his last 4 years. Capers' best year was a good one, but certainly not a trend nor in the neighborhood of Cowhers. If you saw the games last year you could just tell that the team had lost all confidence and wasn't playing with heart, something that is a direct reflection of the coaching staff. Once you lose that, just like he did with Carolina, it's extremely hard to get it back. Capers' biggest foley has always been his offense and it showed its head here in Texas.

Your post starts out by saying Capers should have been given another year, and then you proceed to give most of the reasons he got fired. In light of what you said and the team in a 'state of flux,' what kind of record do you think the Texans would have had in year 5 if Capers was still the HC?

Exascor
05-17-2006, 09:18 AM
Has anyone ever called you a pessimist? Know of anyone?:)Hehe. Realist with a touch of pessimism would be more accurate. Has anyone called you sarcastic? :francis:

Back to the subject: The original question was "Who will have a better year?" I picked a 6-10 record for the Texans in 06. Capers went 7-9 once so the vote went to Capers.

Some posters make excuses for Capers using "expansion team" or "give it another year". I don't. If you can't see beyond the win-loss records (7-9 and 2-14) then how can Capers be properly evaluated? Capers had the team UNDERperforming. As has been stated, it started in mid 04 and carried through all of 05. Yes even with a weak roster they weren't performing well. His idea of staying in the game until the 4th quarter really was a horrible concept that backfired time and time again. Fangio ran a joke of a D. That's Capers field. Capers seemed incapable of adjusting his system. When things got bad it was always because the players weren't "executing".

I wanted Kubiak to be the initial coach of the Texans. I understood the logic behind bringing in someone that had experience with expansion teams so got completely behind Capers when he was hired. He was reported to have learned why the Panthers collapsed after the great season they had. He was detailed and methodical. Sounded great on paper. Capers failed to deliver a team that challenged the opponents. The team regressed and players like Sharper wanted some changes. He had 4 years. Enough was enough.

I believe in Kubiak. I'm not like Bobo that thinks Capers is better than Kubiak. I also think it is obnoxious to think that because Kubiak has no HC experience that he'll fail. Everyone has to get a chance sometime. But...I'm not a believer in a new coach, installing new systems in both offense and defense, turning over a large portion of a weak roster being successful in their first year. It could happen but I wouldn't bet on it.

Mr. White
05-17-2006, 09:28 AM
Capers' record as HC:
48-80
.375 winning percentage

He had 1 fluke season where any of his teams went above .500.
He should never have been hired on to start with.

Think I'll go with Kubiak.

Exascor
05-17-2006, 09:44 AM
Putzier was not even necessary due to the need to keep the TE in to protect the QB until the situation gets straightened outYou know, I blame the old regime completely for the sack problems. They addressed the problem without thinking of the consequences.

Problem: The QB gets pressured and sacked too much
Solution: Run more max-protection and run shorter routes

That was scary when I first heard it. Hmm...we have trouble protecting the QB so we're going to let the defense play a red zone defense every down? Short pass routes allow the safeties to play run support. Using a TE as just another o-linemen let's the defense attack the QB even more-not less. It was exposed in the preseason and they adjusted by changing the playbook and reducing it at the same time.

Scary.

TEXANRED
05-17-2006, 09:49 AM
Hehe. Realist with a touch of pessimism would be more accurate. Has anyone called you sarcastic? :francis:



Me sarcastic? Noooooooooooooooooo............:spy:

Just truethfull with a touch of humor.:whip: :bananasplit:

real
05-17-2006, 11:14 AM
Cowher estabished a winner percentage of 67% his 1st 4 years after previous coach Chuck Noll notched only 47% his last 4 years.

Just curious....Did you know those percentages, or did you look those up ?

SESupergenius
05-17-2006, 12:31 PM
Just curious....Did you know those percentages, or did you look those up ?
Looked them up, go look yourself, it's all over the internet.

SESupergenius
05-17-2006, 12:40 PM
Your post starts out by saying Capers should have been given another year, and then you proceed to give most of the reasons he got fired. In light of what you said and the team in a 'state of flux,' what kind of record do you think the Texans would have had in year 5 if Capers was still the HC?
In my mind Capers should have been given another year...if he had done the things to make him stay and Casserly had been fired right away in January. Capers should have brought in a good defensive coordinator, maybe from another 3-4 team's coaching staff and he should have brought in a West Coast style offensive coordinator to help out this aweful offense. He should have shaken up this team, instead he was too loyal. So since he didn't do all of that then I am ok to see a new start here.

If Capers was still here in year 5 we don't draft Mario Williams. More than likely we take D'Brickashaw as left tackle, and if we still did the same moves in the off season with Flanangan and E. Salaam and the others, you are looking at

D'Brick-Pitts-Flanagan-McKinney-(Salaam, Wiegert) as our offensive line.

I'd be ok with that.

The draft might have included CB Jimmy Williams to shore up our backfield a little, but that is looking in hindsight. If Capers did all the necessary things he needed to do to replace what was lost in Sharper, Glenn, and now Coleman, then I think he'd be sitting at 7-9 for this season, that is one better than I think Kubiak will do in his first year and all of the transitions the players and personnel had to go through.

Runner
05-17-2006, 01:06 PM
In my mind Capers should have been given another year...if he had done the things to make him stay and Casserly had been fired right away in January. Capers should have brought in a good defensive coordinator, maybe from another 3-4 team's coaching staff and he should have brought in a West Coast style offensive coordinator to help out this aweful offense. He should have shaken up this team, instead he was too loyal.

I heard from a fairly reliable source that Capers was told at the end of the 2004 season to replace his coordinators or his head would be on the chopping block too. If that's true, he went into 2005 with his eyes wide open, and 2005 was his "another year".

I was told this during the 2004 off-season, so it isn't revisionist history. Unless someone thinks I'm making it up, of course.

Scooter
05-17-2006, 02:16 PM
dom capers has had 1 winning season in 8 years of being a head coach. is there really need for any more discussion than that? if there is, how about every team got progressively WORSE during his tenure? kubiak has 3 superbowl rings as an assistant coach, and is a former player. that means that he knows how to play the game, and has been taught how to WIN games. shanahan has a career winning percentage of .607 as a head coach and dom is at .167 ... i think i'd rather have shanahan's waterboy than dom as a head coach. dom got DEMOTED this off season, kubiak got PROMOTED. i'm at a loss as to why this is being argued.

SES i'm at a complete disagreement regarding the offseason. if dom was here we would've drafted bush, and we would NOT have been nearly as active in free agency. why would you even assume that we would? i'm sure it's not by following dom's track record. putzier followed kubiak & flanagan followed sherman, scratch the biggest signings off the list right there. following dom's track record, we would've given up a 3nd rounder for moulds, thrown a ton of money at willie mcginest and that would be the extent of our free agency. we'd be running the same "read and react" 3-4 that has failed every season thus far, and we would not have adequate coaching nor personnel to solidify our offensive line (although we probably would've also overpaid for salaam since he's coming from jacksonville).

look at dom's history. then compare it to kubiak's. kubiak has yet to coach a single game and i firmly believe that he's done more for the texans in these past 4 months than capers did during his entire tenure.

TexanFan881
05-17-2006, 02:24 PM
The voting so far tells it all...

tsip
05-17-2006, 03:02 PM
In my mind Capers should have been given another year...if he had done the things to make him stay and Casserly had been fired right away in January. Capers should have brought in a good defensive coordinator, maybe from another 3-4 team's coaching staff and he should have brought in a West Coast style offensive coordinator to help out this aweful offense. He should have shaken up this team, instead he was too loyal. So since he didn't do all of that then I am ok to see a new start here.

If Capers was still here in year 5 we don't draft Mario Williams. More than likely we take D'Brickashaw as left tackle, and if we still did the same moves in the off season with Flanangan and E. Salaam and the others, you are looking at

D'Brick-Pitts-Flanagan-McKinney-(Salaam, Wiegert) as our offensive line.

I'd be ok with that.

The draft might have included CB Jimmy Williams to shore up our backfield a little, but that is looking in hindsight. If Capers did all the necessary things he needed to do to replace what was lost in Sharper, Glenn, and now Coleman, then I think he'd be sitting at 7-9 for this season, that is one better than I think Kubiak will do in his first year and all of the transitions the players and personnel had to go through.

...but the entire premise of the Capers 5 yr plan was to win in the 5th yr! Too, there would be no way Capers would make all those changes but--most important, even if he did--we'd never win with his coaching philosophy!! Who was it that was just posting about Capers blaming everything on 'execution.'

One of the knocks posted on the Bills board was that Capers was not considered for the Bills job because of the answer he gave in the interview when asked how he would coach the Bills--answer was 'same' as in Carolina and Houston!! Capers would not have changed his coaching style and the Texans would never had won with him as HC.

SESupergenius
05-17-2006, 03:06 PM
SES i'm at a complete disagreement regarding the offseason. if dom was here we would've drafted bush, and we would NOT have been nearly as active in free agency. why would you even assume that we would? i'm sure it's not by following dom's track record. putzier followed kubiak & flanagan followed sherman, scratch the biggest signings off the list right there. following dom's track record, we would've given up a 3nd rounder for moulds, thrown a ton of money at willie mcginest and that would be the extent of our free agency. we'd be running the same "read and react" 3-4 that has failed every season thus far, and we would not have adequate coaching nor personnel to solidify our offensive line (although we probably would've also overpaid for salaam since he's coming from jacksonville).

Oh I'm sure a ton of people will disagree with me on Capers. I think that Dom actually would be active in free agency because Casserly was still here, and despite what some people think, Casserly does have an active roll in selecting players. With Bradford and Gaffney gone, I am sure we would have still gone after Moulds. With the O-line still suspect I;m sure Dom would have gone after a lineman too. But read my post again, I'll make it clear, Capers needed to get rid of Fangio and put in a better defensive coordinator to run the 3-4. Without that then yes, Capers should have been fired. As far as overpaying, well, Kubiak overpaid for Weaver so that right there tells us nothing about the coaches signing players......but one commonality in the both coaches is Casserly.

tsip
05-17-2006, 03:07 PM
dom capers has had 1 winning season in 8 years of being a head coach. is there really need for any more discussion than that? if there is, how about every team got progressively WORSE during his tenure? kubiak has 3 superbowl rings as an assistant coach, and is a former player. that means that he knows how to play the game, and has been taught how to WIN games. shanahan has a career winning percentage of .607 as a head coach and dom is at .167 ... i think i'd rather have shanahan's waterboy than dom as a head coach. dom got DEMOTED this off season, kubiak got PROMOTED. i'm at a loss as to why this is being argued.

SES i'm at a complete disagreement regarding the offseason. if dom was here we would've drafted bush, and we would NOT have been nearly as active in free agency. why would you even assume that we would? i'm sure it's not by following dom's track record. putzier followed kubiak & flanagan followed sherman, scratch the biggest signings off the list right there. following dom's track record, we would've given up a 3nd rounder for moulds, thrown a ton of money at willie mcginest and that would be the extent of our free agency. we'd be running the same "read and react" 3-4 that has failed every season thus far, and we would not have adequate coaching nor personnel to solidify our offensive line (although we probably would've also overpaid for salaam since he's coming from jacksonville).

look at dom's history. then compare it to kubiak's. kubiak has yet to coach a single game and i firmly believe that he's done more for the texans in these past 4 months than capers did during his entire tenure.

...great post!!!...kinda scary--almost 'cult' like--the way some folks don't get it about Capers.

TexanFan881
05-17-2006, 03:10 PM
Capers' record as HC:
48-80
.375 winning percentage

He had 1 fluke season where any of his teams went above .500.
He should never have been hired on to start with.

Think I'll go with Kubiak.

I like how instead of just saying he had 1 season over .500 he had 1 fluke season over .500 :tv:

tsip
05-17-2006, 03:13 PM
"With Bradford and Gaffney gone"

...another assumption that would not have happened if Capers had remained!! Heck, he wouldn't even sit them down to play someone else and you think he'd get rid of them??? No way.

SESupergenius
05-18-2006, 10:57 AM
"With Bradford and Gaffney gone"

...another assumption that would not have happened if Capers had remained!! Heck, he wouldn't even sit them down to play someone else and you think he'd get rid of them??? No way.
Someone else? who's on roster would have replaced them? please, now you are reaching. You act like Capers & Casserly would have just sat on their hands this offseason.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
05-18-2006, 11:18 AM
That is the mantra, but I would say that this is somewhat mediocre. Williams was a first rounder, so was AJ who was drafted by Capers. Winston was a third rounder. Davis was a fourth rounder, again, grabbed by Capers. The rest of these guys are highly questionable. It's not like they went out and grabbed a guy with the abilities of Muhsin Muhammad, Tony Gonzalez, Jonathan Ogden or Ray Lewis. After all, Cowart and Kalu may not even start, Weaver can't rush the QB effectively, Moulds is in his declining years and Flanagan is no spring chicken either, Cook can hardly be seen as any better than his predecessor, Putzier was not even necessary due to the need to keep the TE in to protect the QB until the situation gets straightened out, and Walter has a grand total of 30 catches in three years. Now, is that "by far the best off season" the Texans have had? If so, then the other offseasons haven't been much to write home about either. From what I see, these changes really weren't anything of much consequence and were simply transactions made so Kubiak could put his little stamp on his team and call it his own -- at least in some form or another since the core of the team still comes from the previous regime.

BOBO BOBO BOBO... This is by far an addition in the offseason that does not compare to any of the years of capers. But in defense of Capers he came to a team that was just created brand new. On the other hand, they were compensated with other draft picks that he should have been able to make great decisions if he was "qualified" as you have put it in previous posts. Now, I can believe that maybe his hands were tied by management for players he may have wanted that Kube probably got easier and faster as coming in as a new head coach.

I do not know about you, but when I have gone to interviews they look at more than if you know that position. They look at the intangibles as well as the accomplishments you have made. many coaches are brought up through the ranks as a result of their pedigree. You hear it all the time. All you can do is take the chance. It was not working thus far and capers had several years to make improvements.

The WR corp is soo much stronger, and defenitely MORE reliable after adding Moulds and Walter to join AJ and Mathis alone.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
05-18-2006, 11:27 AM
In my mind Capers should have been given another year...if he had done the things to make him stay and Casserly had been fired right away in January. Capers should have brought in a good defensive coordinator, maybe from another 3-4 team's coaching staff and he should have brought in a West Coast style offensive coordinator to help out this aweful offense. He should have shaken up this team, instead he was too loyal. So since he didn't do all of that then I am ok to see a new start here.

If Capers was still here in year 5 we don't draft Mario Williams. More than likely we take D'Brickashaw as left tackle, and if we still did the same moves in the off season with Flanangan and E. Salaam and the others, you are looking at

D'Brick-Pitts-Flanagan-McKinney-(Salaam, Wiegert) as our offensive line.

I'd be ok with that.

The draft might have included CB Jimmy Williams to shore up our backfield a little, but that is looking in hindsight. If Capers did all the necessary things he needed to do to replace what was lost in Sharper, Glenn, and now Coleman, then I think he'd be sitting at 7-9 for this season, that is one better than I think Kubiak will do in his first year and all of the transitions the players and personnel had to go through.


Honestly I do not think he even gets 1/3 of the players from this offseason. the reason many of the players came here is because they could see a change in the schemes and methodology that has emptied the seats.

Second, if you brought him back for his 5th year. No coach is going to go somewhere for 1 year and end up getting fired at the end of it. That is just not smart.

Scooter
05-18-2006, 11:35 AM
Someone else? who's on roster would have replaced them? please, now you are reaching. You act like Capers & Casserly would have just sat on their hands this offseason.

i think he's saying that you're assuming we would've let bradford & gaffney go in the first place. we probably would have kept atleast one of them, negating the desire to even consider moulds.

Ibar_Harry
05-18-2006, 11:39 AM
i think he's saying that you're assuming we would've let bradford & gaffney go in the first place. we probably would have kept atleast one of them, negating the desire to even consider moulds.

We dumped our WR core for a reason. That will be apparent when the season starts.

rafterticket
05-18-2006, 11:45 AM
I think he is unqualified for the position and that he is several steps back from the person who should still be there. To think that I "personally" don't like him is pretty ridiculous since I wouldn't know him if I walked into him on the street. As far as the "hype" goes -- what hype?

Wow, I'm trying to catch up with this thread, and I just realized this. So, Dom...I mean BOBO, go back to work and get your defense together in Miami. You don't have time to go trolling around these message boards - you have a career to save.

And STOP comparing yourself to Brown, Holmgren and Cowher. Your peer group is named Fontes, Armstrong and Shula (not the good one).

Scooter
05-18-2006, 11:50 AM
We dumped our WR core for a reason. That will be apparent when the season starts.

i agree, but we only finally dumped them after kubiak got here. it's anyone's guess whether capers would've kept them or not.

the wonger need food
05-18-2006, 01:46 PM
Capers has 6 votes????

Bobo must have 6 different logins....

SESupergenius
05-18-2006, 05:45 PM
Honestly I do not think he even gets 1/3 of the players from this offseason. the reason many of the players came here is because they could see a change in the schemes and methodology that has emptied the seats.

Second, if you brought him back for his 5th year. No coach is going to go somewhere for 1 year and end up getting fired at the end of it. That is just not smart.
Yes I see your point and this is a good one, but realize that there are still several coaches right now looking for jobs. The intent isnt to be here just one year, thats why I would have like Capers to stay ONLY if major shakeups occured, but it was evident that that wasnt going to happen.

tsip
05-18-2006, 06:09 PM
Yes I see your point and this is a good one, but realize that there are still several coaches right now looking for jobs. The intent isnt to be here just one year, thats why I would have like Capers to stay ONLY if major shakeups occured, but it was evident that that wasnt going to happen.

I still don't see your point. In his 8 years of coaching as a HC, Capers never changed his philosophies or rigid ways of doing things--Bills didn't want him because he was going to coach them the same way as he did the Panthers and Texans. The only way he would have been kept for a 5th year is if he represented a 'greater' chance to win than a 'newbie. After 4 years of losing and a foundation based from day one on a 5 yr plan to win, why in the world would you bring him back to give us another losing season???

We're starting over and the future looks brighter and brighter. I'm not saying we will win in Kubiaks first year, but a losing season under him would be 'far different' than under Capers. So, SE, why would you bring Capers back in a 'lame duck' season?...even to go 7-9, what would that accomplish?

Please give us some specifics!:confused:

Brandon420tx
05-18-2006, 06:18 PM
I want to bring up something about last years sackings of our Carr. Stated earlier was that we shortened our playbook in order to protect David which backfired. I'll put it in simpler terms for dumb people like myself.:rolleyes:

At some point in the season opposing teams KNEW that our offense was

A.) Going to run the ball

B.) Going to audible into a run,and never going to audible into a pass.

C.) Going to pass with a TE on the line and one of the RB's staying back for extra protection. Leaving only 3 options for Carr to throw to, so they shut down the 2 receivers and had a safety or Linebacker go 1 on 1 with whichever back ran out of our backfield. .... Then brought the house....

This brought about many many 3 and outs, which means our defense was ALWAYS on the field .... well our defense and our KR unit....

One of the brightspot plays for our offense last year was a long-ball from Carr to Mathis, which actually freed up a few plays for the first half and it looked like we would finally have a productive day on offense... boy, weren't our dreams crushed by RUN RUN Max Protect RUN Audible Run don't even try send the punt unit out on first down...:sarcasm:

mapleleaf
05-18-2006, 07:16 PM
We'll wait and see...who knows maybe Kubiak might end up being like Capers.....well let's just pray and hope that doesn't happen.

rafterticket
05-18-2006, 07:43 PM
We'll wait and see...who knows maybe Kubiak might end up being like Capers.....well let's just pray and hope that doesn't happen.

Come on, buddy. You don't mean that. In the three months Gary's had the job, he's made more positive moves than the previous regime did in four seasons.

Be positive. This is really looking good.

SESupergenius
05-23-2006, 10:54 AM
I still don't see your point. In his 8 years of coaching as a HC, Capers never changed his philosophies or rigid ways of doing things--Bills didn't want him because he was going to coach them the same way as he did the Panthers and Texans. The only way he would have been kept for a 5th year is if he represented a 'greater' chance to win than a 'newbie. After 4 years of losing and a foundation based from day one on a 5 yr plan to win, why in the world would you bring him back to give us another losing season???

We're starting over and the future looks brighter and brighter. I'm not saying we will win in Kubiaks first year, but a losing season under him would be 'far different' than under Capers. So, SE, why would you bring Capers back in a 'lame duck' season?...even to go 7-9, what would that accomplish?

Please give us some specifics!:confused:I was actually quite happy that we went 7-9 the season before, it met my expectation for an expansion team. It was a good steady progress, you can't deny that. What did happen is that the offseason going into our 2005 was a complete fiasco, now who's fault is that is debatable, but I put it squarely on Casserly. Notice how our offseason was pretty good this year and Casserly's hands were restrained? I think that just one season as a set back should not get a coach fired, almost every coach goes through that. Capers has been in 2 very special parameters in being a coach; he's had to deal with 2 expansion teams, most coaches go into established teams, so the argument of his bad record should have an asterisk next to it because let's face it, expansion teams just don't do well no matter who is coaching. It takes time to build a team.

As far as a 'lame duck' season, in my mind every player, coach or GM is a lame duck in every season. The NFL is based on performance, and the most recent history of performance is what you are based on and the life span of players and coaches is pretty small compared to other occupations. George Siefert coached Super Bowl teams in San Franciso but couldn't get a winning season in Carolina after only 3 years, he wasn't guaranteed anything with his 5 year contract and Super Bowls to his name.

But my point was, was that Capers needed to change some things on this team and wasn't willing to do that, that is a fatal flaw of his. If he had made those changes; a west coast offense, new defensive coordiantor and management got rid of Casserly, addressed the offensive line, got a solid #2 reciever and had a good draft then I would have been ok with him staying. If you look at it, that's pretty much what we did in the offseason this year anyways.

Revolution
06-04-2006, 01:35 PM
A.) His "pedigree" has been spotty. Some success with Elway but spotty achievement after Elway left the building. B.) Capers was a fine head coach and to deny his accomplishments in his first three years is revisionist, disingenuous and unfair. C.) Seeing that he has absolutely no record as a head coach anywhere, I question your "knowledge of the man" in this capacity and your declaration of better results. D.) Seeing that most of the good players on his team are from the Capers era, I have to wonder why you say he has a better team than Dom ever had.

So the Carolina Panthers should have never hired Capers. The Texans should have never hired Capers because he should have never been head coach of the Carolina Panthers. How's that for logic?

John Fox, Bill Cowher and Marvin Lewis should have never been hired either. Big time mistakes by all three organizations! :sarcasm:

mancunian
06-04-2006, 02:28 PM
The people that voted for Dom are lying to themselves.

Go back 12 months are there was still support here for Capers. We'd gone 7 - 9 and were tipped as outsiders for the play offs.
Now I think there will be more positives in Kubiaks first year- and I've predicted 8 - 8 at least twice.

Revolution
06-07-2006, 08:39 PM
So the Carolina Panthers should have never hired Capers. The Texans should have never hired Capers because he should have never been head coach of the Carolina Panthers. How's that for logic?

John Fox, Bill Cowher and Marvin Lewis should have never been hired either. Big time mistakes by all three organizations! :sarcasm:

Funny how Bobo has no argument against this...

bayoudreamn
06-07-2006, 10:19 PM
Funny how Bobo has no argument against this...

shhhhhh......