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LORK 88
05-15-2006, 01:54 AM
Marcedes Lewis Is As Good As Vernon Davis
By Brad Lorkovic


4.38 seconds. That’s all it took Maryland’s Vernon Davis to run 40 yards which is a faster time than all but 3 Wide Receivers. Not only that, but that is the fastest time a Tight End has ever run at the combine. He also set the bar for Tight Ends lifting 225 pounds 33 times. To top it all off, he had a 42 inch vertical and had the longest broad jump (10’8”) by almost 10 inches. At combine workouts, no other Tight End looked more impressive during workouts or perhaps raised his stock quite as high as Davis has. He is expected to be a top 10 lock now after the month of February. However, is he the best VALUE at Tight End?

The easy and oblivious answer to this question is of course! Any idiot can look at these numbers, put 2 and 2 together, and tell he’s got everything you look for. However, as any football fan knows, the position goes a lot deeper than simple tests of athletic ability. There are certain abilities that effect how well you play the position that can’t be tested: toughness, red zone presence, blocking ability, and several other key factors. Several other factors like these put some of the other Tight Ends up there (if not over) Vernon Davis. For this and several other reasons, I feel Marcedes Lewis is the best value at Tight End.

My 1st argument for saying Lewis is a better value than Davis is based on where these two players were drafted. With the 6th overall pick in the 2006 draft, Vernon Davis became a San Francisco 49er. In fact, he is only the 4th TE in the past 20 years to go top 10 overall (Kyle Brady in ’95, Rickey Dudley in ’96, and Kellen Winslow in ’04 being the other two). While you may be thinking that he is definitely worth that pick, out of those 3 above, none have made the pro bowl with the exception of Kyle Brady who was a 1st alternate in 2001. Now, compare that to Marcedes Lewis who got drafted by the Jacksonville Jaguars with the 29th pick in this year’s draft. In other words, there is a lot more pressure to statistically out-do Lewis by a great deal of yardage, but based on college production, this brings me to my second point, production.

Now you may be asking yourself, why did I bring up draft grades? Obviously Lewis and Davis got those grades for a reason! However, like I briefly mentioned above, Marcedes Lewis and Vernon Davis had very identical stats in college. In 2005, Lewis had 58 catches for 741 yards and 10 TDs while Davis had 51catches for 871 yards and 6 TDs. Lewis had more catches and TDs while Davis had 130 more yards. However, what jumps out most to people is the difference in TD totals, a crucial part of being a TE. Now days, Tight Ends are most known for being red zone targets and safety blankets over the middle. In fact, out of the top 25 leaders in TD receptions last year, 5 of them were Tight Ends.

“Okay, well Davis is still a physical freak compared to Lewis!” While he did post faster times, and bench press 225 more times (which is a test that still has very little football relevance), part of it boils down to potential. Davis at the combine came in at 6’3” 253 pounds while Lewis came in at 6’6” 256 pounds. Currently, Davis is listed at 6’3” 253 pounds still while Lewis is at 6’6” 262 pounds. In a matter of about three months, Lewis jumped up 6 pounds while Davis stayed the same. While this still might not seem like much, the point I’m trying to make is that Lewis has great size potential while Davis has peaked out. He can get bigger, faster, and stronger while it will be hard for Davis to do any of these things.

The final piece to this puzzle has to do with where these players where drafted. Like stated earlier, Davis went to the 49ers, while Lewis went to Jacksonville. Jacksonville’s offense finished a respectable 15th overall while being 19th in passing. Davis’ new team the 49ers finished last in total offense and passing. Not enough evidence you say? How about the fact that Jacksonville’s QB Byron Leftwich has never had a QB rating lower than 73 for his career, while Alex Smith (San Francisco’s QB) had a QB rating of 40.8 while posting a TD to INT ratio of 1 to 11 last year. In fact, Alex Smith’s rookie QB rating of 40.8 is one of the worst in NFL history. While Davis may help Smith out, Lewis obviously has the better QB. He also has more talent around him so he can go unnoticed and won’t get double teamed like Davis probably will.

So why did I do this? Am I a Vernon Davis hater extraordinaire? A hardcore Marcedes Lewis fan? To be honest, it’s neither. I just personally feel that because of the reasons listed above, Lewis will be just as great as Davis. It’s nothing personal against Davis, I just don’t agree with all this hype about him being all-world, kind of like Reggie Bush already being called a Hall Of Fame Player without having taken an NFL snap. And to think I call myself a Texan fan . . .

kiwitexansfan
05-15-2006, 03:16 AM
You are 100% correct neither has ever caught a ball or thrown a block in the NFL. Meaning they are just as productive and effective as one another.

thetexanator
05-15-2006, 05:54 AM
no way, lewis is soft, and is slower than davis. lewis is closer to billy miller than vernon davis

TexanFan881
05-15-2006, 06:45 AM
Vernon Davis is a freak of nature. There's no way you can compare any TE to him in the draft. Lewis is not a freak and he is nothing but maybe above average. That's why one was picked 6th and one was picked 28th.

SESupergenius
05-15-2006, 10:52 AM
Lewis is slow to get open and his hands are very questionable.

AtheGreat
05-15-2006, 12:03 PM
I really thought Lewis was pretty good but i looked at his stats last year, and for a TE of the year (if im not mistaken) its not that good. 714yds 10tds. May be the offense he was in, but...looking at sized and ability, there isn't much to compare him to VD.

gtexan02
05-15-2006, 12:45 PM
Sounds like the arguments made from someone who looked purely at stat sheets. Watch these guys and you would have known there as a huge difference.

By the way, arguing that a TE drafted at 6 won't live up to his hype because other top 10 TEs haven't isnt a great argument

Fldvldog
05-15-2006, 01:27 PM
...and his hands are very questionable.

You are 100% incorrect. He catches pretty much anything thrown in his direction. I'm not sure where you heard that bs (unless you made it up, of course).

But, i think that Vernon Davis will be a great player in this league, but not right away. Meanwhile, i think Marcedes will make an immediate impact in the Jags' offense, especially since Jimmy's departure. He will be that security blanket down the middle of the field for Leftwich. Great size, and apparently, is beginning to bulk up more.

And just for the record, while at Friday's mini camp, I noticed that Marcedes is exceptionally fast getting off the LOS. He has great hands, from what I saw, and has a great attitude. I am so glad we picked this kid up.

kastofsna
05-15-2006, 01:39 PM
no doubt about it, davis is the best h-back in the draft. lewis is the best tight end.

Fldvldog
05-15-2006, 02:20 PM
no doubt about it, davis is the best h-back in the draft. lewis is the best tight end.

I completely agree.

Huge
05-15-2006, 02:29 PM
Putting up ridiculous numbers at the combine makes you a better draft prospect.

Being a better draft prospect does not make you the better player.

SESupergenius
05-15-2006, 02:48 PM
You are 100% incorrect. He catches pretty much anything thrown in his direction. I'm not sure where you heard that bs (unless you made it up, of course).

But, i think that Vernon Davis will be a great player in this league, but not right away. Meanwhile, i think Marcedes will make an immediate impact in the Jags' offense, especially since Jimmy's departure. He will be that security blanket down the middle of the field for Leftwich. Great size, and apparently, is beginning to bulk up more.

And just for the record, while at Friday's mini camp, I noticed that Marcedes is exceptionally fast getting off the LOS. He has great hands, from what I saw, and has a great attitude. I am so glad we picked this kid up.
It's not BS I didn't make it up, saw him in person at the Sun Bowl where he seemed to have a case of the dropsies in a very big game. I looked at him feverishly considering that the Texans needed a TE and he was a prospect. I was very unimpressed with his catching abilities and his blocking was pretty weak.

Declaring Him as a ROY in 2006 states your bias towards him and your intellect, thanks for playing.

Trapped
05-15-2006, 03:25 PM
no doubt about it, davis is the best h-back in the draft. lewis is the best tight end.
Davis is the best h-back who i think can play the TE position better then Lewis too.

Davis in my opinion can't be nuetralized out their on the football feild. While i think a Good-Great Lber can completely shut Lewis down.

Of course we have to see them play football.

kastofsna
05-15-2006, 03:32 PM
davis got shutdown at the line many times, especially against FSU, BC, va tech and even wake forest. most of his success came from when he split out at WR or lined up as a h-back.

Fldvldog
05-15-2006, 03:32 PM
It's not BS I didn't make it up, saw him in person at the Sun Bowl where he seemed to have a case of the dropsies in a very big game. I looked at him feverishly considering that the Texans needed a TE and he was a prospect. I was very unimpressed with his catching abilities and his blocking was pretty weak.

Declaring Him as a ROY in 2006 states your bias towards him and your intellect, thanks for playing.

Your judging him on one game that you saw him play? Have you consistently seen him play throughout his career? I seriously doubt it. He has been in many big games thoughout his career, in which he shined. Judging him on one game is pure ignorance. But, from the two post I have seen from you, I don't expect much on your part.

I am not biased what-so-ever. He has the best hands out of anybody in the draft, bottom line. And his blocking isn't "pretty weak." It is his only flaw that seems to overshadow his total package. I know that he will need to improve it, but thats what practice does, there smart one.

Check mate.

kastofsna
05-15-2006, 03:37 PM
no one has better hands than mike hass. but lewis does have good hands, no doubt about it.

Fldvldog
05-15-2006, 03:47 PM
no one has better hands than mike hass. but lewis does have good hands, no doubt about it.

Touche. Totally forgot about Hass. :francis:

SESupergenius
05-16-2006, 02:43 PM
Your judging him on one game that you saw him play? Have you consistently seen him play throughout his career? I seriously doubt it. He has been in many big games thoughout his career, in which he shined. Judging him on one game is pure ignorance. But, from the two post I have seen from you, I don't expect much on your part.

I am not biased what-so-ever. He has the best hands out of anybody in the draft, bottom line. And his blocking isn't "pretty weak." It is his only flaw that seems to overshadow his total package. I know that he will need to improve it, but thats what practice does, there smart one.

Check mate.
Oh please, don't bring that "homer" weak take in here. Could you have more of a man crush on him right now? I've seen enough of Lewis to know what I see. Oh, and don't even let me mention him at the Senior Bowl. He did the same thing he did there that he did in the Sun Bowl, bobbled a catch and almost got run over on a blitz. He is far from a great player or rookie of the year. He's not tough to go over the middle against the big boys, but sure she can catch one over the shoulder when someone's playing him soft, making himself look all pretty. That won't translate in the NFL. He's SOFT! practice isn't going to help just like practice didn't help Billy Miller (going on his 4th team now). His hands are about as soft as you weak takes.

Fldvldog
05-16-2006, 05:32 PM
Oh please, don't bring that "homer" weak take in here. Could you have more of a man crush on him right now? I've seen enough of Lewis to know what I see. Oh, and don't even let me mention him at the Senior Bowl. He did the same thing he did there that he did in the Sun Bowl, bobbled a catch and almost got run over on a blitz. He is far from a great player or rookie of the year. He's not tough to go over the middle against the big boys, but sure she can catch one over the shoulder when someone's playing him soft, making himself look all pretty. That won't translate in the NFL. He's SOFT! practice isn't going to help just like practice didn't help Billy Miller (going on his 4th team now).

Homer weak take in? Man crush? All your credibility went down the toilet on that one, skippy :rolleyes:

Once again...2 games out of many. That shouldn't overshadow the fact that he has nearly dominated the position basically for his entire college career. And if your saying he wont get ROY because of the type of play you saw from him in 2 games, you are delusional. He has been fantastic in mini camp so far. Trust me, I've seen it first hand. yes, i know the pads were off, but he has proved alot this past week, such as how overrated the 40 time is. He wont go over the middle? We'll see about that. And I have a feeling you will see that first hand when we play the texans. Call him soft. You'll soon find out.


His hands are about as soft as you weak takes.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist this last one. My side is still hurting :tv:

SESupergenius
05-17-2006, 08:12 AM
First it was one game now it's two games, how many big games do you want me to point out. LOL, that was one of the weakest takes I've seen in a long while. Everyone looks good in minicamps, LOL. You've got a long way to go when you evaluate a talent just by peeking at them in shorts and T-shirts on a nice confortable day. Get the pads on and let him go against true NFL talent and balls out speed, you'll see him flop down like there's a insurgent RPG coming or something.

And if you want to talk about credibility:

07-12-2005 - "I expect Leftwich to excell this season. He has a young and talented wide reciever corps that can only get better. He has a cannon for an arm, and has worked on his accuracy pretty much the entire"

LOL!

kastofsna
05-17-2006, 01:09 PM
First it was one game now it's two games, how many big games do you want me to point out. LOL, that was one of the weakest takes I've seen in a long while. Everyone looks good in minicamps, LOL. You've got a long way to go when you evaluate a talent just by peeking at them in shorts and T-shirts on a nice confortable day. Get the pads on and let him go against true NFL talent and balls out speed, you'll see him flop down like there's a insurgent RPG coming or something.

And if you want to talk about credibility:

07-12-2005 - "I expect Leftwich to excell this season. He has a young and talented wide reciever corps that can only get better. He has a cannon for an arm, and has worked on his accuracy pretty much the entire"

LOL!
http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/lewis_marcedes

you're really reaching here in your bashing of lewis.

Fldvldog
05-17-2006, 02:50 PM
First it was one game now it's two games, how many big games do you want me to point out. LOL, that was one of the weakest takes I've seen in a long while. Everyone looks good in minicamps, LOL. You've got a long way to go when you evaluate a talent just by peeking at them in shorts and T-shirts on a nice confortable day. Get the pads on and let him go against true NFL talent and balls out speed, you'll see him flop down like there's a insurgent RPG coming or something.

And if you want to talk about credibility:

07-12-2005 - "I expect Leftwich to excell this season. He has a young and talented wide reciever corps that can only get better. He has a cannon for an arm, and has worked on his accuracy pretty much the entire"

LOL!

You're over-exaggerating his play in the senior bowl. It wasn't bad...but it also wasn't good. And I'm glad you decided to dismiss the fact that I did mention it was only mini camp, and there's still alot of proving to do. Doesn't every rookie? You're killing me!!!

Oh, and I'm glad you had enough time in your life to browse back and pick out a quote I had made over 10 months ago. And I still stand behind that statement, because had it not been for injuries, Leftwich was really uping his game (just coming off a 4 TD game before he was injured).

Read a book.

titan hater
05-17-2006, 03:12 PM
You're over-exaggerating his play in the senior bowl. It wasn't bad...but it also wasn't good. And I'm glad you decided to dismiss the fact that I did mention it was only mini camp, and there's still alot of proving to do. Doesn't every rookie? You're killing me!!!

Oh, and I'm glad you had enough time in your life to browse back and pick out a quote I had made over 10 months ago. And I still stand behind that statement, because had it not been for injuries, Leftwich was really uping his game (just coming off a 4 TD game before he was injured).

Read a book.

Troll!!

Fldvldog
05-17-2006, 03:16 PM
Troll!!

That means alot coming from you. It really does :rolleyes:

LORK 88
05-17-2006, 04:44 PM
a response to the writing in bold.
okay what kind of weight did lewis gain muscle mass or fat?
vernon davis is like pure muscle, how do you know he can't gain any more weight or strength? by a period of 3 months not taking into account any other weight ins?
you already stated he set the fastest 40-time out of all the TE's ever.
so do you think that Marcedes Lewis is going to beable to surpass that given a couple of pounds in weight increase and strength increase?
He benched 225lbs. 33x for his size and muscle per square inch of his body compared to all TE's wait... compared to all the players in the nfl he is purely muscle he's armor, just like bush is! even though both players are small tackling a smaller player w/ very high % if muscle mass, and tackling a bigger player w/ not nearly as much of muscle mass, favors the smaller guy ie: bush, V. davis, because they're smaller and stronger allows them to escape and break tackles. the player w/ the lowest center of gravity gets the best leverage.



to the response in the blue, does it matter? thats just like saying well if carr was drafted by the Steelers, or Pats with better players around him and a good line then he'll produce more.

thats just like saying if you and i have similar driving skills but i'm way better than you! but i get sponsored by Ford to drive a Mustang GT and you get sponsored by Chevy to Drive a Corvette, of course on paper you have a big advantage and if im really great than i should hopefully be able to keep up or even beat you.thats one of the lamest excuses for why lewis is better than davis! if you do that kind of comparison, than you have to break down every single player in the nfl by positions and teams and see well if peyton manning played for the texans behind our line and carr played under colts line hmmm... carr will prob be better...

sorry i still think Davis is a better player, he'll be able to show off his Potential if he played w/ the likes of Denver, Pats, Steelers, Seahawks, of course but no he's playing w/ the 49ers and if you compare the two than you have to compare them as if they were playing for the same team!

Who do you think will perform better if either Davis or Lewis played for the 49ers?:whip:

Isaac Sopoaga tied the bench press record 2 years ago and is a backup for SF. Jerome Mathis ran a 4.26 and is 5th on our WR depth chart. Your putting too much emphasis on combine numbers, ecpecially at a position where they dont matter as much. Randy McMichael (4.75), Jeremy Shockey (4.6), Alge Crumpler (4.73) all ran slower than 4.6 or at it and by the looks of it, all are doing great (I posted the links below if you dont believe me). Being a TE is all about soft hands, creating separation, and finding holes in zones.

As for your 'what if' situation, you blew that waaay out of proportion and totally misunderstood what I said. Im trying to prove the point that Lewis has the better QB in Jacksonville. Hell, name a WR on SF's roster worth mentioning. Antonio Bryant is the only one, who had a 1000 yard season last year with Cleveland. With nobody on that offense worth being scared of, tell me why teams wont try to focus on Davis? At least Jacksonville has Matt Jones, Reggie Wiliams, and Ernest Wilford at WR instead of Antonio Bryant, Arnaz Battle, and Jason McAddley.And if your trying to say that a QBs skill has no effect on a WRs production then your sorely wrong.

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives2001/draft_2001/scoutingreports_te.asp
http://espn.go.com/melkiper/s/2001/0307/1136944.html