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Runner
05-08-2006, 01:26 PM
Interesting article, excuse me if it's been posted before:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12679801/

66cobra
05-08-2006, 02:22 PM
good one, thanks....
I can't believe that Bush wanted $28 mill guaranteed, while Williams was happy with $24.5 guaranteed. Even though Dogra wanted the same $28M, I am glad to see that Williams was happy with the contract and settled for lesser guaranteed money. It kind of makes Bush look selfish...

TexanFan881
05-08-2006, 02:45 PM
good one, thanks....
I can't believe that Bush wanted $28 mill guaranteed, while Williams was happy with $24.5 guaranteed. Even though Dogra wanted the same $28M, I am glad to see that Williams was happy with the contract and settled for lesser guaranteed money. It kind of makes Bush look selfish...

good luck signing him New Orleans...:redtowel:

I still wish we would have just gave Bush the money though :shots:

dat_boy_yec
05-08-2006, 05:28 PM
I think the Bush camp would have come down a little bit had they kept negotiating. I think it was a matter of them wanting to get Williams and focusing on signing him.

Runner
05-08-2006, 05:32 PM
I though the article was interesting in that it showed some of the process during the decision.

Ironist
05-08-2006, 05:37 PM
good one, thanks....
I can't believe that Bush wanted $28 mill guaranteed, while Williams was happy with $24.5 guaranteed. Even though Dogra wanted the same $28M, I am glad to see that Williams was happy with the contract and settled for lesser guaranteed money. It kind of makes Bush look selfish...

Williams wasn't happy with 24.5; if he was, we certainly would have signed him for that. Why give him 26.5 when he's happy with 24.5? His asking price was actually above 26.5, rumored to be around 27 or 28 as well. What it came down to was that he was the first to budge; he agreed to 26.5 before Reggie.

And I dont think you can call Bush selfish...last year Smith got 26, and Bush is a much better player, so he probably deserved 28. Besides, thats the game of compromise; ask above what you're worth to get as close as possible.

Hulk75
05-08-2006, 06:03 PM
good luck signing him New Orleans...:redtowel:

I still wish we would have just gave Bush the money though :shots:
Yea no kidding

Double Barrel
05-08-2006, 06:12 PM
I'm seriously doubting if Bush ever wanted to be here to begin with.

Second Honeymoon
05-08-2006, 07:10 PM
dude is a troll but sadly i agree with him. sometimes you just have a gut feeling about something and this just doesnt feel like it was a well conceived decision with the #1 overall pick. it felt thrown together, last minute and a total panic by McNair/Kubes/Cass.

i have some big problems with the pick of Mario at #1 pick overall.

not the consensus #1 pick. the consensus pick was Bush. irregardless of whether Mario ends up being better for the Texans, the bottom line is that we didnt get the value for the pick that we could have gotten. trading down to #4 you are guaranteed to get either DBrick or Mario....period...end of story. Either pick would have been a GREAT pick at #4. with this scenario we dont have to pay the #1 overall draft pick premium, you probably get a couple 2nd-3rd round picks extra and MOST IMPORTANTLY you get a player that comes in without the weight of the world (well at least city) on his back. Trading down was ONLY smart decision once you decided Bush was not gonna be the pick at #1. but of course trading down would have been the smart thing to do but smart and Texans front office are rarely used in the same sentence.

spits in the face of the fans. i know we all love our team and can eventually delude ourselves enough to make peace with the pick, but the Texans mishandled PR across the board since the end of the season. if the offseason goal was to alienate the fanbase with arrogance and a holier than thou attitude then consider the mission accomplished. the front office had a good offseason overall but on the biggest stage they failed their fans. they failed their fans not by not picking Bush or Young but by not getting the most out of their 1st pick and then acting like they did the right thing. they did the right thing by drafting for need on the line but neither Mario or DBrick were worth the 1st pick overall....

drafting on measurables as opposed to results. mario is a freak of nature. we all know that. superior athlete yada yada yada. bottom line is dude did NOTHING at NC State to warrant #1 overall pick. he even played alongside 2 1st round defensive lineman and didnt dominate unless it was against an ACC basketball school (Wake Forest, Duke, etc.) Before the combine the guy was no higher than the #7 rated player on most boards....after combine he shoots up to #2 on a lot of boards...did NC State play a football game during that time? how does a player go from barely cracking Top 10 to being labeled the best player out of college that year? but leave it to Casserley to lay on egg on his Swan Song before he is 'promoted' to NFL Front Office....guy always has to prove that he is smarter than everyone else....he can never make the safe pick, always has to reach for the myopic mirage

but anywho, the draft pretty much fell right for us the rest of the way and the additions of Flanagan, Moulds and Weaver should really improve the team. I just think we could have really made a bigger splash in the draft and in the player's minds. Nowadays, the NFL is like college football..its all about the program and were still viewed as an expansion outfit, reaching for Mario reinforced that view in my opinion...i want players to want to come to Houston and drafting Bush or Young or trading down and doing smart thing would have helped us in that regards..by staying put and not drafting best player because of measurables and rumors just sends the wrong message...

well rant over, i am looking forward to the season and hopefully our first non-losing season...ill take 8-8 in a heartbeat.

oh another quick poll. would you rather beat colts or cowboys this year? i say without pause Colts, but i dont have the Houston Inferiority Complex that most Houstonians have towards Dallas....I want to punish Peyton this year :)

doug from the woodlands

66cobra
05-08-2006, 07:26 PM
I don't know if you are calling me a troll (been here since the Texans started up, went thru the first message board, now on this one since it got overhauled 2 years ago, I may only have 89 posts but I just don't have a lot to say, even though I really don't have the time since I DO coach), but I do agree with some of what you are saying. However, I think this was a smart pick because I think we need help on defense as well. Oh, yes I accidentally put $24.5M instead of $26.5M because that is what I remembered for some reason. Even so, $26.5 is still cheaper than $28M.

Texans86
05-08-2006, 07:28 PM
Wow. Just...wow.

Your arguement has been torn apart on many other threads so many times, I can't even begin to dissect it. It hurt my head to read. I kept blinking hoping it was simply a figment of my imagination. It never went away.

The draft is over now. Mario Williams plays for the Texans. Reggie Bush is supposed to play for the New Orleans Saints if they can sign him.

Simply put...please get over it.

Edit: Reflects opinion on Honeymoon's post

Second Honeymoon
05-08-2006, 08:09 PM
how can you tear apart someone's opinion? sorry that I dont think they got value out of their #1 pick. no amount of homering by anyone will make me change my mind until I see Mario produce consistently like a #1 overall pick against quality competition....which he has NEVER DONE IN HIS CAREER.

i would have loved the draft if we would have gotten Mario or DBrick at #4 and a few extra picks in a very deep draft. that sucking sound you are hearing is our secondary. trading down would have allowed us to bring in some depth at both the CB and FS position.

i am not saying the sky is falling but we failed once again to make a splash in this league. we are still david carr's team and that aint exactly a good thing. we are still viewed as an expansion franchise that blunders picks away by the vast majority of NFL players and fans. hopefully Kubes can work some magic on Carr and the offense, because the Carr experiment has been an abject failure so far.....thanks Casserley

btw I predicted last years embarassment last May and was called an idiot, moron, etc. so sorry if I am realistic about our teams moves...however this year I predict a 5-11 season with a lot of close games that expose Carr's inability to finish games and lead teams to victory....

Sorry I Am Not A Homer,


doug from the woodlands

Ole Miss Texan
05-08-2006, 08:51 PM
Been reading MB's for months now but just got around to "regestering".

First off, I'd say our FO and coaches know more about football and our team than we do, a lot more than me anyway. I'm really looking forward to all the changes, ie 4-3 defense and Kubes!

If they could have traded down and gotten Mario or D'brick and more picks maybe they would have done that, it would have been a good move. But in order to move down...somebody has to be willing to move up. It just seems like there wasn't a whole lot of interest from other teams to move up to our spot. Meaning they didn't see the benefit in getting Reggie Bush over a Top 5 guy plus several other picks (that wouldn't be in THEIR best interest).

At the end of the day I'm excited about the Mario pick. I was very pro bush all the months leading up to the 29th. I sure hope he can get to a better team some how to really showcase his stuff. I trust our new staff and think they know what their doing.

Just out of curiosity (sp?)...How many teams had Reggie Bush as #1 and how many had Mario at #1 ..bpa#1. I've heard anywhere from 0 to 8 teams. If up to 8 that shows he's pretty special (given all the reggie hype and certainty). I wish Mario could have gotten a lot more publicity last season and everyone actually know about him and that he was an option. Seems like he really just was picked up on the radar in the last few weeks before the draft and that's why everyone is frantic and confused/upset.

Texans86
05-08-2006, 09:39 PM
Thank you Ole Miss. Welcome to the board. One key thing that Honeymoon seems to be missing is the fact that no one wanted to trade. Yes it would have be awesome to pick at #4, but our record didn't warrant that. I was in the trade down camp as well, but we couldn't find a suitor. The arguement that we could have gotten so much for the #1 pick is irrelevant, since the Jets didn't want to move up.

For further proof that they didn't want Reggie that much, you need to look no further than the second pick. If the Jets wouldn't give up what it would take to move up to #2, then they sure as heck wouldn't move up to #1. We weren't moving anywhere, and took the person we rated as #1. The BPA has many different aspects, and is not just the best athlete available (which arguably could go to Vince Young anyway).

Reggie Bush could be great, he could be a bust. Mario Williams could be great, he could be a bust. Mr. Irrelevant could be great, he might not make a game in the NFL. You never know in the NFL. Let the guys put on some pads before passing judgement, please.

Huge1
05-09-2006, 12:25 AM
i would have loved the draft if we would have gotten Mario or DBrick at #4

You have said this twice already, but the fact is that Mario was going no lower than #2, period. So this theory is irrelevent. The Texans were not going to risk dropping down too low to miss out on Williams. D'Brick was never on our radar.

And as far as YOUR assessment that Bush was the "consensus" #1.....wrong again. Half of the GM's in the league had Bush and Mario tied atop of their draft boards. 6 are ON RECORD as having Mario as their #1 guy.

I'll take the POTENTIAL NFL life span of a possible Hall of Fame defensive end over that of a possible Hall of Fame running back. I can't remember the last Super Bowl champion team that had the league's leading rusher, but I can remember the last Super Bowl champion team with a dominate defense and dominate pass rush. 13 weeks ago.....

Texan in Japan
05-09-2006, 10:14 AM
Interesting article. No doubt it was a very tough decision and it seems they came to the conclusion not in a matter of days, but rather months of study and what ifs.

Bush may become a thrilling player on par w/ some of the greatest, however, Mario is Kubes guy. For an offensive guru to want a DE over the greatest show on earth, must mean he REALLY believes that DE is better for the TEAM.

As a fan, I can understand and support his decision. Doing the right thing, is sometimes the hardest thing to do.

TexanAddict
05-09-2006, 10:17 AM
...trading down to #4 you are guaranteed to get either DBrick or Mario....period...end of story. Either pick would have been a GREAT pick at #4...Trading down was ONLY smart decision once you decided Bush was not gonna be the pick at #1. but of course trading down would have been the smart thing to do but smart and Texans front office are rarely used in the same sentence.

The key to all trades is that you must have a trading partner. It has been stated over and over how the Jets at #4 had no interest in moving up to #1, and that it was the Texans that called them numerous times inquiring about a trade, not the other way around. This is further supported by the fact that once we did select Mario, the Jets made no real offer to even move up to select Bush at #2 from the Saints. You cannot force a trade to happen. There was no one willing to move up to our spot so our staff did the right thing by doing what is best for our TEAM.

spits in the face of the fans...they did the right thing by drafting for need on the line but neither Mario or DBrick were worth the 1st pick overall....

I personally am glad that this FO has the sense and confidence to make decisions that are right for the team without having to run them by the drooling fan base. This isn't American Idol, and this team isn't holding a popularity contest. Kubiak is trying to make sure that the pieces he needs to implement his brand of football will be in place when the season starts. So far I like the direction he seems to be taking, shoring up a horrible defense that gave games away last season and strengthening our O-Line that has been the biggest weakness of this team since year 1. I think that copping out for a flashier pick with marketability as opposed to trying to put the best product on the field possible would truly be like spitting in the face of the fans.

but anywho, the draft pretty much fell right for us the rest of the way and the additions of Flanagan, Moulds and Weaver should really improve the team.

This I agree with.

oh another quick poll. would you rather beat colts or cowboys this year? i say without pause Colts, but i dont have the Houston Inferiority Complex that most Houstonians have towards Dallas....I want to punish Peyton this year :)

I would also say the Colts, since I think that win would give us more credibility, but I'm hoping to beat em both! Go get em Mario!:twocents:

titan hater
05-09-2006, 10:20 AM
Been reading MB's for months now but just got around to "regestering".

First off, I'd say our FO and coaches know more about football and our team than we do, a lot more than me anyway. I'm really looking forward to all the changes, ie 4-3 defense and Kubes!

If they could have traded down and gotten Mario or D'brick and more picks maybe they would have done that, it would have been a good move. But in order to move down...somebody has to be willing to move up. It just seems like there wasn't a whole lot of interest from other teams to move up to our spot. Meaning they didn't see the benefit in getting Reggie Bush over a Top 5 guy plus several other picks (that wouldn't be in THEIR best interest).

At the end of the day I'm excited about the Mario pick. I was very pro bush all the months leading up to the 29th. I sure hope he can get to a better team some how to really showcase his stuff. I trust our new staff and think they know what their doing.

Just out of curiosity (sp?)...How many teams had Reggie Bush as #1 and how many had Mario at #1 ..bpa#1. I've heard anywhere from 0 to 8 teams. If up to 8 that shows he's pretty special (given all the reggie hype and certainty). I wish Mario could have gotten a lot more publicity last season and everyone actually know about him and that he was an option. Seems like he really just was picked up on the radar in the last few weeks before the draft and that's why everyone is frantic and confused/upset.

Bravo...Very good post...

chuckm
05-09-2006, 10:21 AM
i would have loved the draft if we would have gotten Mario or DBrick at #4 and a few extra picks in a very deep draft.


and I would have loved having Donald Trump for a father, Kay Parker for a mother, Lassie for a dog, Sharon Stone for a next door neighbor, ..... you make the best of your opportunities .....

David's Busted Carr
05-09-2006, 10:47 AM
until I see Mario produce consistently like a #1 overall pick against quality competition....which he has NEVER DONE IN HIS CAREER.

doug from the woodlands

First of all that arguement is stale. What do you expect Mario to do? Get a sack on EVERY play? The guy had double digit sacks and 54 tackles for loss! 54!!! Not to mention he made two of his Dline teammates (Lawson & McCargo) first round picks. He freed them up to make plays even when he wasn't directly involved.

Second If I'm not mistaken Mario's career hasn't even started yet. There is WORLD of difference between the NFL and college football. Lets see how the guy does when he has professional coaching and focuses on football 24/7.

Finally I see your arguement with trading down, BUT if they had Mario targeted where were they going to trade? You couldn't move down to #4 b/c Mario would have been GONE. New Orleans wouldn't trade with you b/c they were guaranteed Mario/Bush (whichever one the Texans didn't take) so they had no incentive to trade. Casserly mentioned numerous times they called EVERY team in the top of the draft and nobody was interested in trading.

And if you're so concerned with "value" how about the Texans making up for it by drafting Ryans (2nd) and Winston (3rd) which were both projected as 1st round picks!

:fireball:

GrandPa
05-09-2006, 12:11 PM
good one, thanks....
I can't believe that Bush wanted $28 mill guaranteed, while Williams was happy with $24.5 guaranteed. Even though Dogra wanted the same $28M, I am glad to see that Williams was happy with the contract and settled for lesser guaranteed money. It kind of makes Bush look selfish...
Wait until the season starts, you haven't seen anything yet...

Houston better hope Bush does not sign or is a total bust or this message board will light up like you have never seen before...

Things might quiet down for now but watch and see what happens when the season starts...

whiskeyrbl
05-09-2006, 01:25 PM
Wait until the season starts, you haven't seen anything yet...

Houston better hope Bush does not sign or is a total bust or this message board will light up like you have never seen before...

Things might quiet down for now but watch and see what happens when the season starts...

Sep 10 @Cleveland 1:00pm
Sep 17 @Green Bay 1:00pm
Sep 25 Atlanta 8:30pm
Oct 1 @Carolina 1:00pm
Oct 8 Tampa Bay 1:00pm
Oct 15 Philadelphia 1:00pm
Week 7 BYE
Oct 29 Baltimore 1:00pm
Nov 5 @Tampa Bay 1:00pm
Nov 12 @Pittsburgh 1:00pm
Nov 19 Cincinnati 1:00pm
Nov 26 @Atlanta 1:00pm
Dec 3 San Francisco 1:00pm
Dec 10 @Dallas 1:00pm
Dec 17 Washington 1:00pm
Dec 24 @N.Y. Giants 1:00pm
Dec 31 Carolina 1:00pm

Going against some pretty stoudt defenses,we'll see what he is made of.

thunderkyss
05-09-2006, 02:57 PM
not the consensus #1 pick.
Either pick would have been a GREAT pick at #4.
Trading down was ONLY smart decision once you decided Bush was not gonna be the pick at #1. but of course trading down would have been the smart thing to do but smart and Texans front office are rarely used in the same sentence.

The Jets didn't want to pony up to get Reggie at #2...... why do you still beleive they would have given us "fair value" at #1??

spits in the face of the fans.


Certain fans have been spitting in the face of this organization for a long time. Drafting Reggie, IMHO, would have been appeasing them.

drafting on measurables as opposed to results. mario is a freak of nature. we all know that. superior athlete yada yada yada. bottom line is dude did NOTHING at NC State to warrant #1 overall pick.

& what had Reggie done....... think about it. He's the #2 RB for a start studded team...... the #3 reciever. Reggie wasn't sitting on the sideline for one 4th and 1 play....... he was on the sideline twice, in the biggest game of his season. If anyone should've gone back to school their senior year, it's Reggie. He should have played when he could be considered the #1 option on 4th & Distance.

Nowadays, the NFL is like college football...

Well that explains your position right there.


well rant over, i am looking forward to the season and hopefully our first non-losing season...ill take 8-8 in a heartbeat.


That's another problem....... accepting mediocrity........ Oh, we'll be happy with a loosing season, as long as we sell a bunch of Reggie Bush Texans Jerseys.........................

pathetic

oh another quick poll. would you rather beat colts or cowboys this year? i say without pause Colts, but i dont have the Houston Inferiority Complex that most Houstonians have towards Dallas....I want to punish Peyton this year :)

doug from the woodlands

ummm............... Let's beat them both :fireball:

TexanFan881
05-09-2006, 03:02 PM
& what had Reggie done....... think about it. He's the #2 RB for a start studded team...... the #3 reciever. Reggie wasn't sitting on the sideline for one 4th and 1 play....... he was on the sideline twice, in the biggest game of his season. If anyone should've gone back to school their senior year, it's Reggie. He should have played when he could be considered the #1 option on 4th & Distance.

Why should Reggie have gone back to college another year when he wins the Heisman and is easily considered the #1 pick up until draft day? If it's a Duece + Reggie combo, than he won't need to be in there on 4th down. I don't think he should have gone back to school just so he could prove more when he's already proved he was worthy of being the #1 pick.

El Tejano
05-09-2006, 03:14 PM
I liked the link and I feel Gary Kubiak's quote about finally having a strength to this team is exciting.

tsip
05-09-2006, 03:20 PM
...kinda glad the VY supporters aren't flooding the board with threads about him still...hint

Second Honeymoon
05-09-2006, 08:31 PM
That's another problem....... accepting mediocrity........ Oh, we'll be happy with a loosing season, as long as we sell a bunch of Reggie Bush Texans Jerseys.........................

pathetic

accepting mediocrity?!?! hey who knows, maybe we can make the playoffs and catch lightning in a bottle with Carr and Co. and we blow up ala the Rams. I wouldnt hold your breath though. I think 8-8 would be a pretty good turnaround from 2-14 and would even still have us in the wild card hunt in week 12 or so...anything can happen but dont call me out for accepting mediocrity. I am just trying to be realistic towards our teams progress under Kubes....for all we know they could go 19-0 and win the Super Bowl but once again dont hold your breath.

to all the other people who say 'no one wanted to trade up' I say BS. we were just asking for too much. even a 2nd round pick would have been worth trading down to #4 based on the FO not wanting Bush and his baggage/agent. I think we set ourselves up for failure and embarassment with that pick...that is all. I feel sorry for Mario and hope he is all that he was 'measured' up to be at the combine because God knows we didnt see it on the football field. And saying that Mario made those other 2 DL at NCState is ridiculous, they all helped each other and Lawson was voted team MVP by his own players.....that should tell you something in itself

doug from the woodlands

Double Barrel
05-09-2006, 09:42 PM
to all the other people who say 'no one wanted to trade up' I say BS. we were just asking for too much.

How much were we asking? I've been unable to locate any news stories providing reliable details, so I'm glad you've got the inside scoop to share with us. :howdy:

thunderkyss
05-09-2006, 10:06 PM
Why should Reggie have gone back to college another year when he wins the Heisman and is easily considered the #1 pick up until draft day? If it's a Duece + Reggie combo, than he won't need to be in there on 4th down. I don't think he should have gone back to school just so he could prove more when he's already proved he was worthy of being the #1 pick.

Obviously not.... I mean, a bunch of people who don't make football decisions for a living may think so, but when it came down to the people that mattered, he didn't cut the mustard. He's a part time player..... and not the one you count on, when you need a yard.

Like I said, in the RoseBowl, 2006, there were two occasions that USC attempted to convert a 4th down....... Reggie was on the sideline, both times. The starting Running back was in on the play, a sophomore(JR??) WR, and the Heisman winning QB of 2005....... None of those players were even considered for the #1 pick, in actuality, and they were more integral to the USC offense than Reggie Bush.

I think Casserly/Kubiak were able to look past all the hype, and make a sound football decision.

But like I said..... If Reggie would have returned to USC, and was able to elude NCAA investigators for another year, he would have been the primary option for the team. He'd have been able to demonstrate that he can carry a team, that he is worthy of the #1 overall selection.

As it stands, like Ronnie Brown, and Caddillac Williams..... he wasn't worthy.

accepting mediocrity?!?! hey who knows, maybe we can make the playoffs and catch lightning in a bottle with Carr and Co. and we blow up ala the Rams. I wouldnt hold your breath though. I think 8-8 would be a pretty good turnaround from 2-14 and would even still have us in the wild card hunt in week 12 or so...anything can happen but dont call me out for accepting mediocrity.

I am truly sorry, for underestimating your zeal for our team. Please accept my apology.

I am just trying to be realistic towards our teams progress under Kubes....for all we know they could go 19-0 and win the Super Bowl but once again dont hold your breath.

I'll hold my breath if I wish......... Realistically, we're just dreaming right now anyway...... we won't have any clue of what kind of progress we're making(if any) until we can see them......... TC maybe?? Preseason most likely.

But we are not rebuilding..... I think the F.O. was pretty adamant about that. We're doing a little retooling, and a little fine tuning.....

We've been running Pendry's Zone Blocking offense since 2004..... and I think we can all agree, that even though we haven't been running it right(no cut block) We run it pretty well. The only thing I expect Kubiak to add, is a little more tightend play(if we can't get a recieving tightend into our offense in '06, then the man upstairs is trying to tell us something........ Joppru, Putz, Owens(is that his name??), and don't forget Halterman in NFLE), which we've been trying to do since '02. And a few more blocking schemes to either move the pocket, solidify the pocket, and/or get the ball out of the QBs hand quicker.

This is more of an evolution of a system, than it is a total rebuild. Kinda like in those old movies, where Jackie Chan already knows Kung Fu, his Tiger's style is strong, his Eagle's Claw is perfect. But the Master helps him refine his Tiger's Claw, and makes him niegh invincible.

Defensively, if we've been picking our personnel Wisely(fingers crossed), then we've got a football team full of intelligent players who understand what defense is all about, and switching to a 4-3 from a 3-4, is much easier than the other way around. Though Kalu may be aging, I think he rounds out a solid Defensive line rotation, that is balanced well, with size, age, power, and speed.


to all the other people who say 'no one wanted to trade up' I say BS. we were just asking for too much. even a 2nd round pick would have been worth trading down to #4 based on the FO not wanting Bush and his baggage/agent. I think we set ourselves up for failure and embarassment with that pick...that is all. I feel sorry for Mario and hope he is all that he was 'measured' up to be at the combine because God knows we didnt see it on the football field. And saying that Mario made those other 2 DL at NCState is ridiculous, they all helped each other and Lawson was voted team MVP by his own players.....that should tell you something in itself

doug from the woodlands

if we are going to "trust" Kubiak on the David Carr decision, then we've got to trust him on this one as well. I would bet money, that Kubiak evaluated the players himself, and didn't rely on media pundits as we have (me anyway).

Now if Taking Mario proves our folly, by not getting true #1 overall value, then play out your trade scenario in your mind. We give up the #1 to the jets, for their #1 pick, and their second round pick..... did we get fair value??

not by the point chart that's been floating around the MB.... we didn't set the price, it's already written in stone, so to speak.

So then we have to take AJ Hawk with the #4. and reach on a DE in the second, in order to replace what we got in Mario/Demeco..... Darryll Tapp, was the next DE taken, at pick 63..... Where's the value??

Or you'd have to go with a DB, or pick up an OL that we ended up getting in the third.......

We'd be the laughing stock for sure.

Even if no one else has Mario rated as a #1 pick, if he's on any board as the #2 overall pick, then it makes sense to take him with the #1, if he is the guy we wanted, and we could not trade down, and gaurantee that we'll get him at the same time.


PR wise, Drafting Reggie Bush seems to be working well for the Saints...... but you are fooling yourself, if you think he makes them a better football team. I don't care what Duece says, or what Payton says, or what their fans say.

You can almost make a case, saying we needed playmakers on our team. Before FA, all we had was DD and AJ. & only AJ was a scoring threat, but without a TE, and a WR....... he wasn't enough.

but N.O.?? Horn, Stallworth, Duece, and Bennette....... shiiiiiiiit........ Hakim... man, they've got all kinds of weapons already..... how does Reggie make them better?? Duece is making $50 million, Reggie's going to be making $50 million, Brees is already making $10 million, Bennett got a $2 million bonus..... all behind a $3 offensive line.

The right thing for them, would've been D'Brick(who doesn't fit our Zone Blocking scheme) or AJ Hawk, who they need.

TexanBorn51
05-09-2006, 10:36 PM
Hey as far as all the hoopla about the money(contract agreements) goes who knows maybe FEMA can indirectly make up the difference lol & being funny. Precious and historical New Orleans and the surrounding areas sure can use all the help they can get check out the disaster news as you well know and rebuilt New Orleans is there to stay and declaring a big come back for the city. Many lives died and were destroyed. I hear the fans and area citizens there are really looking forward to living there lives again in the "Big Easy." I've been all around there and the French Quarter and had a blast everytime. Just another positive way of looking at the end result of the draft and the teams effected by it.:fieldgoal

trublu
05-09-2006, 10:44 PM
Everyone keeps posting that the Jets weren't even interested in the #2 pick once we passed on Bush, but I was watching the draft on the NFL network and they were reporting that Jets were pushing hard for the pick while NO was on the clock. The Saint GM was was on Sirius radio stating that there was no way he was passing up on Bush. Pat Kirwin asked about the Jets offer and the Saints GM said that they were ultimatly not going to budge unless someone offered the farm. The fact that NO pick Bush with about 5min still on the clock let you know that they weren't interested in moving.

Im impartial either way, and in retrospect I like Williams on our team, but just hearing everyone testify that there was absolutly no interest in Bush is ridiculous.:brickwall

thunderkyss
05-09-2006, 10:54 PM
Everyone keeps posting that the Jets weren't even interested in the #2 pick once we passed on Bush, but I was watching the draft on the NFL network and they were reporting that Jets were pushing hard for the pick while NO was on the clock. The Saint GM was was on Sirius radio stating that there was no way he was passing up on Bush. Pat Kirwin asked about the Jets offer and the Saints GM said that they were ultimatly not going to budge unless someone offered the farm. The fact that NO pick Bush with about 5min still on the clock let you know that they weren't interested in moving.

Im impartial either way, and in retrospect I like Williams on our team, but just hearing everyone testify that there was absolutly no interest in Bush is ridiculous.:brickwall

Either way, they couldn't put together a package that would make it worth the #2 overall pick........ I heard they weren't even close........

Casserly said, they didn't make an offer...... in fact if I remember, we tried to initiate talks with them.

Even so, the Jets take Bush, the Saints take Mario, Titans stick with Young, and we don't get what we wanted......

trublu
05-09-2006, 10:58 PM
I can't remember the last Super Bowl champion team that had the league's leading rusher, but I can remember the last Super Bowl champion team with a dominate defense and dominate pass rush. 13 weeks ago.....

98 Terrell Davis
95,93,92 Emmit Smith

Why are you comparing one rusher to an entire defense and pass rush. Shouldn't you compare a rusher to one pass rusher and in that case who on the PIT defense was the league pass rusher. Seems to me that you're comparing one apple to a whole basket of oranges
...:twocents:

trublu
05-09-2006, 11:12 PM
Either way, they couldn't put together a package that would make it worth the #2 overall pick........ I heard they weren't even close........

Casserly said, they didn't make an offer...... in fact if I remember, we tried to initiate talks with them.

Even so, the Jets take Bush, the Saints take Mario, Titans stick with Young, and we don't get what we wanted......

OK we don't get Williams, the next player is Hawk. Plus we pick up extra early 2nd(Jimmy Williams,D'Qwell Jackson, Danieal Bullocks) and 3rd (Ashton Youboty). Three quality defense of players in exchange for one. PIT has a dominant defensive team not player.

thunderkyss
05-10-2006, 01:05 AM
OK we don't get Williams, the next player is Hawk. Plus we pick up extra early 2nd(Jimmy Williams,D'Qwell Jackson, Danieal Bullocks) and 3rd (Ashton Youboty). Three quality defense of players in exchange for one. PIT has a dominant defensive team not player.

Mario is the final piece of our dominant defensive team.

& don't tell me about the sense of trading down, I understand three starters in exchange for one..... but if you're continuing the discussion I was having with HoneyMoon, he suggested that we take any trade down, and his scenario had us getting the jets #4 overall, and their second, that's it. I wouldn't trade mario for AJ & Jimmy Williams, or AJ & D'Qwell........ when I should be able to get more than that with the #1 overall, and the guy I want the most will be gone after the second pick....

trublu
05-10-2006, 01:13 AM
Mario is the final piece of our dominant defensive team.

& don't tell me about the sense of trading down, I understand three starters in exchange for one..... but if you're continuing the discussion I was having with HoneyMoon, he suggested that we take any trade down, and his scenario had us getting the jets #4 overall, and their second, that's it. I wouldn't trade mario for AJ & Jimmy Williams, or AJ & D'Qwell........ when I should be able to get more than that with the #1 overall, and the guy I want the most will be gone after the second pick....

Alright, I can accept your stance on taking the player you want without compromising, but please don't tell me that Mario is the final piece of our dominant defensive team.:confused: Do you not remember that we pretty much had the worst defense in the league? We will need much more work on D.

Ole Miss Texan
05-10-2006, 01:46 AM
Alright, I can accept your stance on taking the player you want without compromising, but please don't tell me that Mario is the final piece of our dominant defensive team.:confused: Do you not remember that we pretty much had the worst defense in the league? We will need much more work on D.

Yea, we had a horrible D that was severely overlooked because of Carr's sacks and the O-line. Mario was a great pick up..kind of being the cornerstone and building block of our new D. Weaver was a great pick up in the offseason solidifying the other end position. We have a few tackles to see whos best with johnson, smith plus Babin and peek can fill in the end position while mario takes any spot along the line he wants each play. Because our Dline will be worlds better and decent linebackers it will help out the secondary so much. buchanon won't get shown up near as much because peyton,eli,vince, the other qbs wont have all day in the pocket. Dunta will hopefully continue what he's doing.

Just add Mario and Weaver makes the entire Defense so much better. Not so much that they will dominate..but that a better pass rush will help the other players out , etc etc etc. The intensity will be so high, this is going to be a great year.

Look at Peyton getting scared in the pocket = :chicken:

TexanBorn51
05-10-2006, 08:14 AM
bump

TexanBorn51
05-10-2006, 08:16 AM
You have said this twice already, but the fact is that Mario was going no lower than #2, period. So this theory is irrelevent. The Texans were not going to risk dropping down too low to miss out on Williams. D'Brick was never on our radar.

And as far as YOUR assessment that Bush was the "consensus" #1.....wrong again. Half of the GM's in the league had Bush and Mario tied atop of their draft boards. 6 are ON RECORD as having Mario as their #1 guy.

I'll take the POTENTIAL NFL life span of a possible Hall of Fame defensive end over that of a possible Hall of Fame running back. I can't remember the last Super Bowl champion team that had the league's leading rusher, but I can remember the last Super Bowl champion team with a dominate defense and dominate pass rush. 13 weeks ago.....
Earl Campbell (Offensive Player of the year again while claiming the NFL MVP, by rushing for an NFL best 1,697 yards, while scoring 19 TDs) and the Oilers were only one game vs Steelers from the Super Bowl 1978. I know real close but not close enough but it was Houston.

Maddict5
05-10-2006, 08:57 AM
i read the first few pages of the article but thought it was dumb the way they quoted Kubiak and Casserly evaluating Mario and how they quoted the conversation on picking him- like they were really in the room and all

thunderkyss
05-10-2006, 09:43 AM
Earl Campbell (Offensive Player of the year again while claiming the NFL MVP, by rushing for an NFL best 1,697 yards, while scoring 19 TDs) and the Oilers were only one game vs Steelers from the Super Bowl 1978. I know real close but not close enough but it was Houston.

Would it be okay, if someone on our team rushes for 1697+ yards in 2006?? Would that be enough to say we didn't make a mistake??

El Amigo Invisible
05-10-2006, 11:25 AM
I can't believe someone took out a 25,000 dollar ad to draft VY. I guess I was not alone.:twocents:

Ibar_Harry
05-10-2006, 12:38 PM
I can't believe someone took out a 25,000 dollar ad to draft VY. I guess I was not alone.:twocents:


Just think about how many people are going to pay for that add.

TexanBorn51
05-10-2006, 08:36 PM
You see, even when the RB rushes that many yards goes to show you that Super Bowl is not guarnateed. There have been RB teams without all that rushing yardage per year and they made it. All this Bush draft hype could it then not be in the same category. Geez what is there that fans can really complain about when you have a running back (DD) that rushes for over 1000 yards per year and with a claimed OL that is weak and getting injured prone and QB ( Carr) one of the most sacked in the league and quess what DD still does it. Now that's a talented and determined running back. So I guess the moral to the story is the final winner at the end of the season is the team that is most balanced in all areas. The Texans will be more balanced than ever before but in the new system they must learn it and how long to learn it. It's here where they must win to win games. :texans:

sprtsfanatic
05-10-2006, 09:29 PM
well its good to finally see the "old" thunder back on the board...had me wondering what happened to you for a while there...some of your post were off base there for a while but I couldnt agree with you any more on this entire thread.

thunderkyss
05-11-2006, 07:06 AM
You see, even when the RB rushes that many yards goes to show you that Super Bowl is not guarnateed. There have been RB teams without all that rushing yardage per year and they made it. All this Bush draft hype could it then not be in the same category. Geez what is there that fans can really complain about when you have a running back (DD) that rushes for over 1000 yards per year and with a claimed OL that is weak and getting injured prone and QB ( Carr) one of the most sacked in the league and quess what DD still does it. Now that's a talented and determined running back. So I guess the moral to the story is the final winner at the end of the season is the team that is most balanced in all areas. The Texans will be more balanced than ever before but in the new system they must learn it and how long to learn it. It's here where they must win to win games. :texans:

1800 total yards from scrimmage his sophomore season with the Texans........ & that's in the NFL, on a bad team........ nothing against Reggie, but I think we got the man we need.

TexanFan881
05-11-2006, 07:38 AM
1800 total yards from scrimmage his sophomore season with the Texans........ & that's in the NFL, on a bad team........ nothing against Reggie, but I think we got the man we need.

Exactly the way I look at it.

Reggie is a RB. A very good one at that. I would say that DD is an above average runner, so very slight upgrade.

A lot of people said that Reggie would have been a top 5 pick if he was a reciever. We traded for Eric Moulds and DD is already a big threat out of the backfield for a catch.

At kick returner we drafted Mathis and I couldn't see Bush come here and kick him out of a job.

So all together we wouldn't be able to use him to his full abilities and we wouldn't be able to use him as the weapon that he is as well as the New Orleans Saints. I think we made a good move with taking Mario as of now.

bad
05-11-2006, 08:21 AM
I think the Bush camp would have come down a little bit had they kept negotiating. I think it was a matter of them wanting to get Williams and focusing on signing him. I hope you're right. The official word from the Texans is that is was a "football decision", meaning they thought Mario was the best pick for this team.

One thing's for sure; Mario is signed, sealed and delivered. He's ours.

Hope he tears it up. It sure will be nice to see the other team's QB picking himself up off the turf, instead of ours.

Frills
05-11-2006, 09:21 AM
Moving from 4th to 2nd is alot cheaper than 4th to 1st.

Thats why the Jets were suddenly interested when we took Mario 1st

Seņor Stan
05-11-2006, 10:28 PM
And saying that Mario made those other 2 DL at NCState is ridiculous, they all helped each other and Lawson was voted team MVP by his own players.....that should tell you something in itself

doug from the woodlands

I've heard this one a few times in several incarnations and thought it was best to go straight to the source.

http://gopack.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121205aaa.html

*** there is a funky ad in the way but click on the "printer friendy" icon to see the story clearly
Mario Williams won the Governor's Award for team MVP, as the award is given to the player based on his ability, contributions, leadership and intangibles in helping the team to victory.

Manny Lawson was voted Most Valuable defensive lineman.

People are taking the fact that Manny Lawson won the Defensive MVP award out of context. Mario was voted TEAM MVP.

Just had to get that one out there.

JAXwithanX
05-11-2006, 10:32 PM
I've heard this one a few times in several incarnations and thought it was best to go straight to the source.

http://gopack.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121205aaa.html

*** there is a funky ad in the way but click on the "printer friendy" icon to see the story clearly


People are taking the fact that Manny Lawson won the Defensive MVP award out of context. Mario was voted TEAM MVP.

Just had to get that one out there.

nice find....lawson is good....but someone would have to be crazy to not realize what o-lines tried to do to stop williams....

BTW nice sig Senor Stan

Seņor Stan
05-11-2006, 10:34 PM
Moving from 4th to 2nd is alot cheaper than 4th to 1st.

Thats why the Jets were suddenly interested when we took Mario 1st

And STILL didn't want to pay the price.

Bobo
05-11-2006, 11:44 PM
I think the Bush camp would have come down a little bit had they kept negotiating. I think it was a matter of them wanting to get Williams and focusing on signing him.

I don't think so. From what I understand, they were very dogmatic that they believed Bush as a first-overall pick should get this kind of money. In fact, even though he wasn't even the first-overall pick, they are apparently claiming he is STILL worth that kind of money.

kfranco_utexas
05-12-2006, 12:46 AM
Bottom Line is this... The Texans had their mind set in on Williams. Hell, if you went to the Texans draft party and signed up for a locker room tour, you'd realize that they already had his Locker "Williams" picked up. The Texans obiously know what's better. After all, we were the worst football team last year. What do the other 31 teams know that we dont? Haha. We look pretty lame if you ask me.
Ill continue to root for the Texans, but they better pray and hope that when it is all set and done, Williams have a better career than both Young and Bush....or else,,,The Texans will be seen as the Ultimate Joke around the league.
BTW I agree in everything that HoneyMoonIsOver said. You guys need to stop bashing the man and admit that y'all were not thrilled when you initially heard the news of Williams as #1.

JAXwithanX
05-12-2006, 12:49 AM
Bottom Line is this... The Texans had their mind set in on Williams. Hell, if you went to the Texans draft party and signed up for a locker room tour, you;d realize that they already had his Locker "Williams" picked up. The Texans obiously know what's better. After all, we were the worst football team last year. What do the other 31 teams know that we dont? Haha. We look pretty lame if you ask me.
Ill continue to root for the Texans, but they better pray and hope that when it is all set and done, Williams have a better career than both Young and Bush....or else,,,The Texans will be seen as the Ultimate Joke aroung the league.
BTW I agree in everything that HoneyMoonIsOver said. You guys need to stop bashing the man and admit that y'all were not thrilled when you initially heard the news.
:challenge

i wasn't thrilled i was ecstatic....we are going to win a lot more games by putting pressure on the QB....than running for about 300-500 yards more per season. hell i don't care if he ran for 1000 more yards than Davis....there has to come a point where you can stop the offense....and although Weaver is a key piece....he wasn't going to do that. the way our offseason went before the draft....its not exactly hard to see why we went D. its better off for our team....no doubt in my mind.

kfranco_utexas
05-12-2006, 12:57 AM
i wasn't thrilled i was ecstatic....we are going to win a lot more games by putting pressure on the QB....than running for about 300-500 yards more per season. hell i don't care if he ran for 1000 more yards than Davis....there has to come a point where you can stop the offense....and although Weaver is a key piece....he wasn't going to do that. the way our offseason went before the draft....its not exactly hard to see why we went D. its better off for our team....no doubt in my mind.

I hope you are right...I was not too impressed with Williams videos. Never heard of the guy in college football, personally. Living here in Austin, all youd heard was VY, BUSH and LEINART. From the videos it seemed to me that he got most of his sacks against weaker competition.
I hope that Mario turns out to be the next Lawrence Taylor.

Who'd you rather have, Barry Sanders or Lawrence Taylor?
:lightbulb:

JAXwithanX
05-12-2006, 01:02 AM
LT!!! no question man. he had a much bigger effect on games and the league in general. its just the nature of the position for RB's....unfortunately....without tools on defense....the best RB in the world goes to waste....his stats don't....but his effectiveness on the game itself does. Like i've said before....defense can help your offense a ton of ways....turnovers.....good field positioning....even score points on turnovers. unfortunately all an O can do is score....it can never help the other part of the game....therefore the best offenses of all times have sometimes been on just mediocre teams....but the great D's of all time....they almost always were involved in the Super Bowl.

JAXwithanX
05-12-2006, 01:06 AM
But i'd like to add that a lot this has to do with the fact that while yes Bush is better than Davis most likely....there is only so much more effect he can have on our team and games. Our D on the otherhand had a ton to improve on....and getting a pass rush helps all that come together a lot easier. CB's don't finally lose their man....LB's can stay in for the run or short routes....it truly does provide the most immediate impact player we could have gotten in the draft.

Seņor Stan
05-12-2006, 09:53 AM
I hope you are right...I was not too impressed with Williams videos. Never heard of the guy in college football, personally. Living here in Austin, all youd heard was VY, BUSH and LEINART. From the videos it seemed to me that he got most of his sacks against weaker competition.
I hope that Mario turns out to be the next Lawrence Taylor.

Who'd you rather have, Barry Sanders or Lawrence Taylor?
:lightbulb:

Check out the Reggie videos. Frenso State anyone?