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gtexan02
05-02-2006, 03:21 PM
I got a lot of bashing for my post on this thread: http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=22754

I was going to reply there, and if a mod wants, this can be moved, but the topic sort of changed into why we didn't need another DL, and so I wanted to go ahead and start this topic. So here we go:

Let me just please say that our DL was fine, and didn't need a 54 million dollar project added to it. Heres why:
A) On our strong side we just signed Weaver, a proven run stopper who got 13 million dollars guaranteed. Thats a lot of money.
B) In the middle we have Payne (dominating force with a huge contract), Smith (see Payne), and Johnson (High 1st round pick, 1st DT taken)
C) On the week side we have both Babin and Peek. Yes, neither have played a down at DE in their respective NFL careers, but neither has Mario Williams. The fact of the matter is that Babin could turn out to be an incredible DE. Look at his college numbers:
2002 - Babin totaled 15 sacks and 26 tackles-for-a-loss last season. Defensive Anchor
2003 - racked up career-high 115 tackles and matched career high with 15 sacks for 71 yards. made 33 stops behind the line of scrimmage

So maybe Williams will turn out to be an incredible DE, but I simply don't buy the "football decision" that we really needed him. In fact, we have the potential to already have a fantastic DL. If anything, we shoul have traded the 1st pick and gotten OL and DBs and LBs.

Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams. Too bad we already had the potential for an amazing DL and just wasted 54 million on it

Double Barrel
05-02-2006, 03:26 PM
Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams.

So, just to be clear, you're calling Coach Kubiak a liar? :confused:

Our offensive line may have been fine...but now it's better than fine....finer, if you will. :yahoo:

A lot of folks said our running back situation was fine, too, and that we didn't really need Reggie Bush. Obviously, the Texans FO agrees with this perspective.

gtexan02
05-02-2006, 03:33 PM
I'm not really calling Kubiak a liar, more like Casserly. And it wasn't a lie so much as an overanalysis. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.

Basically, I think Casserly convinced himself that A) Bush wasn't durable enough and B) Bush wasn't an every down impact, because of signability and character concerns (the whole house scandal). So what he's doing now is defending his stance, which he believes, but for the wrong reasons. Sorry that didn't make more sense?

thunderkyss
05-02-2006, 03:38 PM
Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams. Too bad we already had the potential for an amazing DL and just wasted 54 million on it

First of all, I don't think you were getting bashed......... some where just saying a DT is not a DE.

Secondly Mario & Reggie agreed to the same $54 million....... the Garunteed might have been a little different, but for Reggie to think he's going to get more than $24 mill is just silly......... if that was the problem. He's already gauranteed more than AlexSmith was last year(Mario is)...... How much more did he need?? If he was serious about $30 mill, it was in hopes that we would trade the pick to NY or something........ and that wasn't happening.

Third...... why is it so hard to believe Kubiak doesn't value a runningback as much as fans do..... once a RB in Denver signs a long term deal, once he gets paid anywhere near $5 mil/yr, he is put on the fastest train leaving Denver..... That's why Kubiak is working sooooo hard to replace DD. He won't get rid of him, until he knows he has a replacement..... see Tatum Bell.....

There ain't nothing wrong with wanting to have a clean image. If there aren't enough kids coming out of college, to put together a 52 man roster squeaky clean roster, then we all worry about football too much.

gtexan02
05-02-2006, 03:40 PM
I would love RB, but if we didn't get RB, I still don't think Williams was the best choice. I would rather have Ferguson here than Williams. My main point was that our DL was already looking great (and expensive!), and I think we had more pressing needs elsewhere

thunderkyss
05-02-2006, 03:42 PM
I would love RB, but if we didn't get RB, I still don't think Williams was the best choice. I would rather have Ferguson here than Williams. My main point was that our DL was already looking great (and expensive!), and I think we had more pressing needs elsewhere


Ferguson was the only other player that many thought could have been the #1 overall....

He flat out didn't fit what we are going to be doing. On a normal pass blocking team yeah, but he's the wrong kinda guy for Denver.

We were stuck with that #1...... I truly believe we would've traded down if at all possible. Fair value in mind.

Mr. White
05-02-2006, 03:43 PM
I'm not really calling Kubiak a liar, more like Casserly. And it wasn't a lie so much as an overanalysis. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.

Basically, I think Casserly convinced himself that A) Bush wasn't durable enough and B) Bush wasn't an every down impact, because of signability and character concerns (the whole house scandal). So what he's doing now is defending his stance, which he believes, but for the wrong reasons. Sorry that didn't make more sense?

So, then you're calling this article (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AjZs3DwgeN6Nqm0.T3jg9M1DubYF?slug=whymar io&prov=tsn&type=lgns) a lie?

"BACK and to the left...BACK and to the left."

chuckm
05-02-2006, 03:43 PM
I'm not really calling Kubiak a liar, more like Casserly. And it wasn't a lie so much as an overanalysis. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.

Basically, I think Casserly convinced himself that A) Bush wasn't durable enough and B) Bush wasn't an every down impact, because of signability and character concerns (the whole house scandal). So what he's doing now is defending his stance, which he believes, but for the wrong reasons. Sorry that didn't make more sense?


Kubiak says that he also came to the same conclusion (picking Williams). How can you blame Casserly but not Kubiak? I know that the conventional wisdom is that CC is on his way out, so he's a convenient target. But please explain how CC merits your wrath without any for Kubiak. I for one am perfectly happy with the pick .... :twocents:

Texans_Chick
05-02-2006, 03:49 PM
Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams. Too bad we already had the potential for an amazing DL and just wasted 54 million on it


1. FWIW, according to Casserly (radio interview), moving to the 4-3 we needed more lineman and lineman suited to the scheme. Before he thought we didn't have enough, now he thinks we are fine.

2. Ryan Fitzpatrick

3. Casserly and McNair said it had nothing to do with money. That they were close enough to the money numbers with both players--and thought they could have signed both. You can keep saying it was about the money, but that seems inconsistent with just about every Texans move to date. I am pretty certain it wasn't about the money.

4. It is obvious by his public statements that Bush wasn't terribly enthusiastic about coming to Houston.

5. Ryan Fitzpatrick

6. The draft says a lot about the coach. It is obvious he is looking for smart players, who are very team and football focused. You can tell by who we picked (Ryans) and who we passed on (Simpson, Winston Justice) and what he has specifically said about our draft and about our team.

So many of Reggie Bush's statements and actions are so against team oriented football it is beyond belief. He was more interested in being the #1 pick than selling himself to the Texans. His actions related to the house situation, if even 1/10th of that is true, sure don't look like he cared at all about his teammates at USC, because he knew he eventually was gonna get paid. You can't just talk about being team focused, it has to show in your actions--I find it absolutely ironic that he found out he was not going to be chosen #1 during party where he was gonna be on the cover of the NCAA football game.

It is completely possible to be an exceptionally talented person without exhibiting lots of behaviors that demonstrate that you are a "me first" kinda person. Maybe he is a team oriented guy, but he certainly has had a strange way of showing it.

If Reggie were a smart guy, and a team oriented guy, he would have done everything in his power to sell himself to the Texans. He would have shouted from the mountaintops how much he wanted to play here. But he didn't have to because he was a part of Team Adidas/Subway/Etc.

Being a good teammate and being team focused is a football issue. Not just an image issue.

7. Ryan Fitzpatrick.

8. Oh, and some whining Peyton Manning for good measure.

Corrosion
05-02-2006, 03:51 PM
Lets put this in simple terms ... In NO WAY was the D-Line "Fine" prior to the draft ! Anyone who expects Babin and Peek to be anything more than Situational players is dreaming . I like them both better as LB's than DE's ...

This D-line is going to make the whole defense look better by leaps and bounds .... The LB's will be free to make some play's and the DB's wont be in coverage for two years (What it feels like when watching) on every pass play . Opposing QB's will make more mistakes because of better pressure which leads to more turn-overs and less completions and less time on the field for the defense ....

Add to that pass rush the fact that they SHOULD be much improved against the rush w/ the additions of Weaver and Williams ...I could easily see a top 10 defense by mid season .

Texans_Chick
05-02-2006, 03:52 PM
. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.

Have you ever seen Babin?

I like Babin better than many, but physically Babin and Williams are so different they could be different species from each other.

Just sayin.

gtexan02
05-02-2006, 03:56 PM
Yes Babin and Williams are different sizes, but they have the same strength. Babin was a beast in college (30 sacks in 2 years?) and much more consistent than Williams. Williams presents huge upside in his measureables, but at the moment, THATS ALL THEY ARE!!! I don't get why CONSISTENCY constantly gets thrown out the door for POTENTIAL. Bush was a stud for YEARS, while Williams was a stud for WEEKS. Babin was more consistent than Williams, why will no one give him a chance?

gtexan02
05-02-2006, 03:57 PM
PS: Just because everyone claims "it wasn't money" or "it wasn't character" or "it was a football decision" doesn't mean I buy into it. These guys are backed into a corner right now and are in 100% damage control mode. People have been calling and cancelling their season tickets, and they'll do anything to validate their choice. They believe its the best choice for whatever reason, but they want the fans to believe its the best choice for football reasons, whether it is or isnt

gtexan02
05-02-2006, 04:00 PM
Have you ever seen Babin?

I like Babin better than many, but physically Babin and Williams are so different they could be different species from each other.

Just sayin.

Last year's sack leader, Burgess from the Raiders, is 6-2 260, which is EXACTLY the same build as Babin. So whats your poitn?

Texans_Chick
05-02-2006, 04:01 PM
People have been calling and cancelling their season tickets, and they'll do anything to validate their choice.

It is actually not that bad. I am trying to get some even better tickets than what I have and so far, nobody is dumping them.

I've been told by ticketing people that the ticket sales are fairly strong. Better than what they thought they would have after last season.

I think some of the desire of the fan base to get Bush was that our offense was so blasted boring and inept looking for so long that we would like to see something that resembles NFL football. Reggie or no, that is gonna happen.

gtexan02
05-02-2006, 04:02 PM
It is actually not that bad. I am trying to get some even better tickets than what I have and so far, nobody is dumping them.

I've been told by ticketing people that the ticket sales are fairly strong. Better than what they thought they would have after last season.

I think some of the desire of the fan base to get Bush was that our offense was so blasted boring and inept looking for so long that we would like to see something that resembles NFL football. Reggie or no, that is gonna happen.

I was just quoting that article posted earlier from Sporting News. It said there were loads of calls from texans fans cancelling their tickets. Could be wrong

CoastalTexan
05-02-2006, 04:03 PM
I have a feeling Payne might be cut, that is ALOT of money on the D-line.

gtexan02
05-02-2006, 04:05 PM
I have a feeling Payne might be cut, that is ALOT of money on the D-line.

Its not like his bonus will disapear, and cutting two expensive DLs (Walker and Payne) will leave us with 10s of milliions in dead cap space. Why did we need to do this when Payne was still serviceable? Williams forces us to cut him now

Mr. White
05-02-2006, 04:09 PM
I was just quoting that article posted earlier from Sporting News. It said there were loads of calls from texans fans cancelling their tickets. Could be wrong


It just said some fans called to cancel season tickets.

Bobo
05-02-2006, 04:11 PM
I was going to reply there, and if a mod wants, this can be moved, but the topic sort of changed into why we didn't need another DL, and so I wanted to go ahead and start this topic.

I think you could make a lot better argument in regards to Bush over Williams than by saying that the DL doesn't need any help. I think everybody understands that the Texans DL needed plenty of help -- and I think you know enough about football where you realize that as well. Weaver cannot rush the passer, neither can Cowart, and the rest of the Texans DL did a real poor job at that last year as well. The stats you quote do not indicate last year's performance and the weakness in pressuring the passer is very evident as it resulted in absolutely zero turnovers (and zero wins as well -- see the correlation?) for the first several games of the season. This team desperately needs more pressure on the passer which would result in more turnovers, better field position, more scoring and more wins. I believe you understand that but I also believe you are trying to simply find any reason to justify your stance on Bush. Just sit back and relax -- it really was a good, smart football decision. Really, it was a no-brainer.

William.carter
05-02-2006, 04:14 PM
I'm not really calling Kubiak a liar, more like Casserly. And it wasn't a lie so much as an overanalysis. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.

Basically, I think Casserly convinced himself that A) Bush wasn't durable enough and B) Bush wasn't an every down impact, because of signability and character concerns (the whole house scandal). So what he's doing now is defending his stance, which he believes, but for the wrong reasons. Sorry that didn't make more sense?

I like Babin but if he had the same potential as Williams does he would have been a DE to begin with. And they surely wouldn't have gone after Williams in this draft. Secondly, Bush's "character concerns" have little if anything to do with the house scandel in my opinion. It had more to do with him wanting to be the #1 pick more than playing for the Texans. It's about him working out for other teams on his team visits and not for us. It's about him shouting show me the money and i'll have to get used to losing a few games rather than being excited about competing at the top level of his sport and saying how much he's love to play for New York.

wrestler4life
05-02-2006, 04:14 PM
I would love to think that we could trade Peek and get some picks next year or a higher price DB or RB

Bobo
05-02-2006, 04:16 PM
I would love RB, but if we didn't get RB, I still don't think Williams was the best choice. I would rather have Ferguson here than Williams. My main point was that our DL was already looking great (and expensive!), and I think we had more pressing needs elsewhere

I can see you wanting Ferguson. I would have been happy with either one. But Ferguson apparently was not as good an OL as Williams was a DE according to the Texans FO. They do this for a living -- I'll accept their assessment. However, like I said previously, there is no way you can say that the DL doesn't need help when it finished 31st out of 32 last year. It was a sieve that RBs ran through and failed to generate either sacks or turnovers. That is the core reason why the team did so poorly -- lack of turnovers. Williams will help both sides of the ball -- he will keep the other team from scoring and his pressure on the QB will result in better scoring position for the offense.

TheOgre
05-02-2006, 04:17 PM
Some people around here might even argue with you that RB was fine too with DD and Morency, and that Bush was merely an upgrade. Not my take on it though. I've never been a big DD fan. I like someone that either has raw power or is a home run hitter. DD is neither.

Bobo
05-02-2006, 04:19 PM
I'm not really calling Kubiak a liar, more like Casserly.

Kubiak with his own mouth said the decision was the right one, so if you condemn Casserly you've got to condemn Kubiak as well. You can bet that Kubiak got a huge say in this because his stake in it is probably higher than Casserly's.

William.carter
05-02-2006, 04:20 PM
2. Ryan Fitzpatrick

5. Ryan Fitzpatrick


7. Ryan Fitzpatrick.


Best argument i've heard yet. If that 3rd string newbie could come in and light us up for 300 yards anc a come from behind victory, obviously our D needed more help than the offense did.

Texans_Chick
05-02-2006, 04:23 PM
Last year's sack leader, Burgess from the Raiders, is 6-2 260, which is EXACTLY the same build as Babin. So whats your poitn?

Raiders run 3-4 as their base defense.

As Casserly said, we needed more and better d-line guys to have a good line in the 4-3.

And throughout the team, Kubiak wants more competition to get the best team on the field. I'm good with that.

BattleRedRaider
05-02-2006, 04:23 PM
Best argument i've heard yet. If that 3rd string newbie could come in and light us up for 300 yards anc a come from behind victory, obviously our D needed more help than the offense did.

No kidding. He became a Yahoo! Fantasy Sports "Pickup of the Week" after the Texans game........and he never had another "good game" after that.

jerek
05-02-2006, 04:23 PM
I got a lot of bashing for my post on this thread: http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=22754

I was going to reply there, and if a mod wants, this can be moved, but the topic sort of changed into why we didn't need another DL, and so I wanted to go ahead and start this topic. So here we go:

Let me just please say that our DL was fine, and didn't need a 54 million dollar project added to it. Heres why:
A) On our strong side we just signed Weaver, a proven run stopper who got 13 million dollars guaranteed. Thats a lot of money.
B) In the middle we have Payne (dominating force with a huge contract), Smith (see Payne), and Johnson (High 1st round pick, 1st DT taken)
C) On the week side we have both Babin and Peek. Yes, neither have played a down at DE in their respective NFL careers, but neither has Mario Williams. The fact of the matter is that Babin could turn out to be an incredible DE. Look at his college numbers:
2002 - Babin totaled 15 sacks and 26 tackles-for-a-loss last season. Defensive Anchor
2003 - racked up career-high 115 tackles and matched career high with 15 sacks for 71 yards. made 33 stops behind the line of scrimmage

So maybe Williams will turn out to be an incredible DE, but I simply don't buy the "football decision" that we really needed him. In fact, we have the potential to already have a fantastic DL. If anything, we shoul have traded the 1st pick and gotten OL and DBs and LBs.

Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams. Too bad we already had the potential for an amazing DL and just wasted 54 million on it

Weaver: run stopping DE. Virtually zero pass rush threat. Slow.

T. Johnson: people on this board keep sticking up for the guy, and I have no idea why. He had a very so-so senior season at FSU, and we absolutely reached to draft him at 16. He is a lazy player who put up extremely limited contribution and time last year, and will play even less this year. This guy isn't impact. He fills the roster until you get better.

Payne: dominating? He's okay. By what basis is he dominating?

R. Smith: 3-4 DE, 4-3 DT. Again he is a run-stopper, hole-plugger. Not fast, not particularly remarkable.

Babin/Peek: both are LBs whom I agree could be used for situational pass rush. However, neither are fast/strong/heavy enough to be in on running plays.

M. Williams: fast/strong/heavy enough to be a dominant run stopper and a dominant pass rusher. Freak of nature.

People want to pitch a fit about passing on Reggie Bush, well, I just don't understand that. Mario is every bit the physical freak of nature that Reggie Bush is. Opposing coaches will be required to gameplan for Mario Williams in much the same way they would Bush. IMO it is a matter of preference and that is fine -- I understand if people would rather watch dominating offense than dominating defense -- but I still fully defend the Williams pick as the right one for the Houston Texans to make.

Reggie is great, and probably will continue to be great in the NFL. But no matter how many times Skip Bayless says it, you don't draft Reggie, "just because he's Reggie." An ignorant argument, and we will see how far it gets New Orleans next year. Hopefully their coaches will be able to utilize him to the fullest.

And this was a football decision. You can call it by any other name, but it was and continues to be a -- and I believe, the correct -- football decision.

jerek
05-02-2006, 04:31 PM
Yes Babin and Williams are different sizes, but they have the same strength. Babin was a beast in college (30 sacks in 2 years?) and much more consistent than Williams. Williams presents huge upside in his measureables, but at the moment, THATS ALL THEY ARE!!! I don't get why CONSISTENCY constantly gets thrown out the door for POTENTIAL. Bush was a stud for YEARS, while Williams was a stud for WEEKS. Babin was more consistent than Williams, why will no one give him a chance?

Bush was a "stud" for two years, and he sat out for long stretches of the Rose Bowl, when the national championship was on the line, in favor of Manboobs White. If that doesn't spell inconsistency, I don't know what does. Just because ESPN consistently replays Bush's highlights does not ascribe to Bush anything near the level of consistency you are granting him.

Mario is himself somewhat inconsistent, but do not pretend as if Bush is wonderfully consistent when in fact it is just the media's portrayal of him that is the only thing consistent.

Your arguments are revealing of the sources of your logic. In this case, ESPN and the talking heads.

William.carter
05-02-2006, 04:44 PM
Bush was a "stud" for two years, and he sat out for long stretches of the Rose Bowl, when the national championship was on the line, in favor of Manboobs White. If that doesn't spell inconsistency, I don't know what does. Just because ESPN consistently replays Bush's highlights does not ascribe to Bush anything near the level of consistency you are granting him.

Mario is himself somewhat inconsistent, but do not pretend as if Bush is wonderfully consistent when in fact it is just the media's portrayal of him that is the only thing consistent.

Your arguments are revealing of the sources of your logic. In this case, ESPN and the talking heads.

I couldn't agree more. When Bush went up against the closest thing to an NFL defense in terms of speed (Texas) he would see in college, he had problems breaking tackles and reaching the edge which limited his role to more or less a slot receiver. That and it seemed to me that he was afraid of getting hurt before his big pay day. again, all about the money. He also showed some signs of mental weekness. After his showboating lost his team a sure touchdown he played the rest of the game like he couldn't shake that off. Stuff happens in this league and you have to be mentally tougher than that to survive. just my :twocents:

trutxn
05-02-2006, 04:45 PM
we didn't need another DL

Let me just please say that our DL was fine, and didn't need a 54 million dollar project added to it. Heres why:

A) On our strong side we just signed Weaver, a proven run stopper who got 13 million dollars guaranteed. Thats a lot of money.
B) In the middle we have Payne (dominating force with a huge contract), Smith (see Payne), and Johnson (High 1st round pick, 1st DT taken)
C) On the week side we have both Babin and Peek. Yes, neither have played a down at DE in their respective NFL careers, but neither has Mario Williams. The fact of the matter is that Babin could turn out to be an incredible DE.

Look at his college numbers:71 yards. made 33 stops behind the line of scrimmage

So maybe Williams will turn out to be an incredible DE, but I simply don't buy the "football decision" that we really needed him. In fact, we have the potential to already have a fantastic DL. If anything, we shoul have traded the 1st pick and gotten OL and DBs and LBs.

Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams. Too bad we already had the potential for an amazing DL and just wasted 54 million on it



Although the Texans did not pick Vince like I would have preferred, they did fill a majority of their needs. The Texans DL was not that good and Seth Payne has never been a "dominant force" ever in his career. He has been good but he does not have the physical abilities to change the game from a defensive standpoint. The Texans did not have any dominant player on the defensive side of the ball last year. The closest thing to that was Dunta Robinson. Mario Williams and Anthony Weaver will be solid bookends for the next 10 years. Mario is much better than any of the DL we have, compared to how much better Reggie Bush is than Dominack Davis. DD has provided for this franchise his entire career, you can't say that about any of our D-linemen.

Babin and Peek will also fit into the defensive scheme as well. When a defense is aggressive it tends to get the players tired more quickly. The Texans now have the ability to rotate out defensive lineman to keep the players fresh. With the DL that we will be sending in the games on Sundays, offensive coordinators will be on the edge of their seats and QBs will be on their backs.

The offensive line was also vastly improved in the draft. We picked up two very good O-linemen and a very good blocking tight end. Carr should have plenty of time to make his throws now, with no excuses.

Sure Reggie was the popular pick, but he is an individual in a team game. The Texans filled needs, no matter how unpopular the picks were. Besides, we needed someone to chase Vince down twice a year.

Power destroys speed!

Double Barrel
05-02-2006, 04:47 PM
Some season-ticket holders call to cancel their seats.

This is pure BS. This line was in the article describing Saturday, during the draft. The ticket office is closed on weekends, so whoever these season-ticket holders were calling, it wasn't doing much good.

My Texans ticket agent told me Monday that they were running at a 95% renewal rate, and NOBODY was calling on Monday to cancel season tickets (so no upgrade for me!).

So I hear a dog barking with no bite (because he doesn't have any teeth!!). These people need to go howl at the moon so the rest of us can get prepared to watch some football.

gtexan02, you'll always be welcomed back on the bandwagon...I'll save you a spot. Once this d-line gels and starts controlling their side of the ball, I have little doubt that you'll understand the nature of Kubiak's draft decisions.

trutxn
05-02-2006, 04:50 PM
Some people around here might even argue with you that RB was fine too with DD and Morency, and that Bush was merely an upgrade. Not my take on it though. I've never been a big DD fan. I like someone that either has raw power or is a home run hitter. DD is neither.

Exactly, he is a mixture of both. Morency is just as fast as Bush, check the 40 times.

trutxn
05-02-2006, 04:57 PM
I would love to think that we could trade Peek and get some picks next year or a higher price DB or RB

Peek is not going anywhere, he fits our scheme. This years pass rush will be relentless through all 4 quarters. The Texans will have one of the best DLs in the league, if not the best.

Williams
Weaver
Babin - Also can play cover LB
Peak - Also can play cover LB
Johnson
Payne
Smith

With that rotation we will get plenty of hits on the QB, which will make the LBs and CBs better as well. When you have D-lineman that can drop back into coverage and LBs that can blitz, it makes it hard for opposing QBs to know where the blitzes will come from. With the addition of Cowart as well, the Texans defense will be very stout this year.

ClintonPortis26
05-02-2006, 04:58 PM
Look, I know you guys wanted the hot pick in Reggie Bush or Vince Young but believe it or not your core sucks...


Listan, Kubiak knows what he is doing. You may think just becuase he knows how to run the Denver system he can run it with any old offensive lineman but he can't. He needs to find the right lineman to do that. He did that by getting Charles Spencer and Eric Winston.

Then you got Mario Williams supposedly the next Julius Peppers. He'd be perfect to be the anchor for your defense for the next 10-14 Years if everything goes as planned. Your gonna need him too especially since you have Peyton Manning and the Colts and the Jacksonville Jaguars on the rise. Not to mention Vince Young too.

TigerV1
05-02-2006, 05:02 PM
It just said some fans called to cancel season tickets.


That is a shame. No wonder Houston is considered one of the worst sports cities. The fair weather fans are trying to run the Texans out of town.(Matress Mac.....)

I haven't been to a Texans game due to budget constraints, but I am intentionally going to buy tickets this year to show my support.

TheOgre
05-02-2006, 05:04 PM
Exactly, he is a mixture of both. Morency is just as fast as Bush, check the 40 times.

DD doesn't break the long one and only occasionally plows through people, but he is a mixture of both? I guess he gets the worst of both styles of runners.

I like Morency and would like to see him get more p.t. if he can learn to pass block and stop running horizontally so much.

TheOgre
05-02-2006, 05:09 PM
Morency is just as fast as Bush, check the 40 times.


If you consider 4.67 the same speed as 4.35, then you are right.


http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2005/morency_vernand


http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/bush_reggie

thunderkyss
05-02-2006, 05:27 PM
Bush was a stud for YEARS, while Williams was a stud for WEEKS. Babin was more consistent than Williams, why will no one give him a chance?

Forget Bush..... he won't be a Texan.......... it ain't going to happen. Forget him. Show me where Denver has paid more than $6 million/yr to a guy, and didn't move him within a years time. Runningbacks are over rated as far as Shanahan & anyone remotely associated with him. They are not a "skilled" position..... so to speak.. Wide reciever is also on the short list in Denver..... prepare to be loosing AJ in the coming years.... the contract Molds got, is pretty close to max what a reciever should be getting....

I bet Kubiak damb near fainted when he saw our payroll.... $9 mil/yr for a DE, is also kinda high, so don't expect Mario to stick around after 6 years.

At the same time, don't expect us to ever draft so high again.

Now Babin.....

I'm with you, he's a stud, and he's going to be the one two punch other teams will fear(Mario being the one, and Babin the two actually). But imagine being able to put constant pressure on Peyton Manning down, after down, after down, for 4 full quarters..... from the front 4. throw a LB in there, or a CB every now and again.....

jerek
05-02-2006, 05:33 PM
Forget Bush..... he won't be a Texan.......... it ain't going to happen. Forget him. Show me where Denver has paid more than $6 million/yr to a guy, and didn't move him within a years time. Runningbacks are over rated as far as Shanahan & anyone remotely associated with him. They are not a "skilled" position..... so to speak.. Wide reciever is also on the short list in Denver..... prepare to be loosing AJ in the coming years.... the contract Molds got, is pretty close to max what a reciever should be getting....

I bet Kubiak damb near fainted when he saw our payroll.... $9 mil/yr for a DE, is also kinda high, so don't expect Mario to stick around after 6 years.

At the same time, don't expect us to ever draft so high again.

Now Babin.....

I'm with you, he's a stud, and he's going to be the one two punch other teams will fear(Mario being the one, and Babin the two actually). But imagine being able to put constant pressure on Peyton Manning down, after down, after down, for 4 full quarters..... from the front 4. throw a LB in there, or a CB every now and again.....

Disagree on AJ. They have retained Rod Smith for years. If AJ develops true consistency, and presuming AJ goes along with his established "team/character" guy, he will retire a Texan. RB might be fairly interchangeable.

Still disagree on Babin, but I've stated why plenty of times. Hope he can truly develop into the player we drafted him to be.

JAGumbo
05-02-2006, 06:03 PM
I don't understand the original post of this thread.
No disrespect, but your defense against the run was ranked 32nd in the league last year. I would think that's far from "fine."

I think you guys scored big time picking up Williams and Ryan.
Your front office did a great job in their picks in my opinion.

Bobo
05-02-2006, 06:05 PM
Some people around here might even argue with you that RB was fine too with DD and Morency, and that Bush was merely an upgrade. Not my take on it though. I've never been a big DD fan. I like someone that either has raw power or is a home run hitter. DD is neither.

Who needs a home run hitter when the defense sets you up at the opponent's 30? That's what Williams is designed to help do.

Bobo
05-02-2006, 06:08 PM
Listan, Kubiak knows what he is doing.

I agree with the pick, but certainly NOT for this reason!!!

footballguy69
05-02-2006, 08:56 PM
It is unbelievable to me that some people on this message board and on talk radio are saying they are cancelling their season tickets. You cannot "cancel" your season tickets at this time. This Thursday, May 4th, you must be paid up in full. 1/2 was already due two months ago. If you "really" had tickets you would know that. So if you are that stupid to think that now you can "cancel" your season tickets because you did not like the Texans drafting Williams, then I am willing to bet you are not even a season ticket holder. With most of the seats being PSL seats you would stand to lose a lot of money by forfeiting the PSL cost. So if you do not really have season tickets then.......spare us bonafide season ticket holders, from the cr*p and just tell us you will not watch on TV or listen on the radio. I'm still willing to bet you will! Now.....I feel better!:twocents:

* Peyton, playing the Texans will be like the Pittsburg game! And Vince, playing the Texans will be like the A & M game! Both of you will be looking at the Reliant roof.

thunderkyss
05-02-2006, 09:22 PM
Look, I know you guys wanted the hot pick in Reggie Bush or Vince Young but believe it or not your core sucks...


Listan, Kubiak knows what he is doing. You may think just becuase he knows how to run the Denver system he can run it with any old offensive lineman but he can't. He needs to find the right lineman to do that. He did that by getting Charles Spencer and Eric Winston.

Then you got Mario Williams supposedly the next Julius Peppers. He'd be perfect to be the anchor for your defense for the next 10-14 Years if everything goes as planned. Your gonna need him too especially since you have Peyton Manning and the Colts and the Jacksonville Jaguars on the rise. Not to mention Vince Young too.

Clit.... thanks for blessing us with your presence, but please don't act like the all knowing football guru. There are two..... maybe three guys in this thread, who don't get it......... don't talk to all of us like we're children, in need of your guidance........

Most of us in this thread, are saying the same thing you are.

Try not to take this the wrong way...... you're welcome here, if you want to talk football, we're game, and we welcome intelligent discussion...... but don't patronize us......... not all of us anyway.

thunderkyss
05-02-2006, 09:40 PM
Disagree on AJ. They have retained Rod Smith for years. If AJ develops true consistency, and presuming AJ goes along with his established "team/character" guy, he will retire a Texan. RB might be fairly interchangeable.

Still disagree on Babin, but I've stated why plenty of times. Hope he can truly develop into the player we drafted him to be.


You're right about Rod Smith.......... but AJ is making more than the multiple probowler right now...

Of course McNair will override him, but I'd hate for Kubes & Mac to go at it over something like this....... time will tell.

BigTimeTexanFan
05-02-2006, 09:49 PM
I do think the defensive line needed to be addressed especially considering trhe potential Mario Williams brings. My question is how much better will he make players like Travis Johnson. I know in the limited time TJ got in playing time last year, he wan't extremely effective, but he WAS a rookie. TJ was also a highly touted defensive lineman in last years draft with some speed himself (4.9 40 if i remember correctly). So with pressure taken off of him by a physical freak like Mario Williams, should we expect to see huge strides in T.Johnson's play???
I hope so

ensign_lee
05-02-2006, 09:55 PM
I am a big fan of having drafted Mario.

That being said, there is merit to the argument that our defensive line may have been fine by itself.

Sure, we were the 31st ranked defense last year, but back then, we were running the 3-4 defense, not the 4-3 that we are running now. Without Williams, we essentially added three linemen:

A) Anthony Weaver, LE (He'd play on top of the right tackle, for sure if Babin was opposite him)
B) Travis Johnson, DT (I include him as an addition, because now he will get to play differently than he did in a 3-4; he'll get to attack, rather than contain, making him a completely different player)
C) Jason Babin, RE (Moving to a new position, he could have been the monster that he was in college. Hell, even if he was merely mediocre at the position, it would be an upgrade over the pass rush we had previousy).

That makes 3/4 roster spots changed and upgraded. We added Williams, which further anchored the line, but our line wasn't looking SO bad without him.

Personally, I would like to see the line consist of
RE: Mario Williams
DT: Weaver, Johnson, Payne/Smith(whichever one stays on the roster)
LE: Jason Babin

as far as starters, but somehow, I doubt that will happen. That's my preferred DL lineup, however.

I'm really scared of what's going to happen to Babin. I don't relish the thought of discounting him completely. I'd rather have him out there on the line than riding the pine.

BigTimeTexanFan
05-02-2006, 09:55 PM
Also the notion that we have too many lineman is a little innacurate. Especiall with regards to Seth Payne. Had we not drafted Mario, could we really expect Seth Payne to contribute at a high level for several more years? Gary Walker is going to be cut. So excluding Paybe, we have Weaver, TJ, Kalu, Babbin, and Peek (Pre Draft). Tell me how comfortable you feel with that scenario for the start of the season.
*sorry I forgot about R.Smith

ensign_lee
05-02-2006, 09:57 PM
Oh, and take this for what it is (just a video game), but when you switch Babin from his OLB spot to a DE spot, his rating goes jumps at least 8 points to an overall 94. Something to think about.

Texans_Chick
05-02-2006, 10:05 PM
I like Babin but if he had the same potential as Williams does he would have been a DE to begin with. And they surely wouldn't have gone after Williams in this draft. Secondly, Bush's "character concerns" have little if anything to do with the house scandel in my opinion. It had more to do with him wanting to be the #1 pick more than playing for the Texans. It's about him working out for other teams on his team visits and not for us. It's about him shouting show me the money and i'll have to get used to losing a few games rather than being excited about competing at the top level of his sport and saying how much he's love to play for New York.

Well said.

BradK10
05-02-2006, 10:10 PM
And this whole thing about him petitioning to wear #5 IMO shows a little immaturity. It's a f'ing number.

And I think Travis Johnson is set up for a huge year moving back to a 3 tech where he is used to playing.

from a nifty little football site I found...for those of yall not "up to speed" on some of the more technical terms...
(http://football.calsci.com/Positions8.html)

A 3-technique tackle lines up between the offensive guard and tackle. A 3-technique tackle is supposed to run through his gap immediately. He is a 1-gap player. His job is not to block or get tied up in a block, but rather to be athletic and get himself into the offensive backfield and disrupt their plans. Because of this a 3-technique tackle is a lighter more athletic guy than a nose tackle, typically weighing more like 290 to 300 pounds.

That's TJ in a nutshell.

In the 3-4 he was playing a 4I technique (head up on the OT) or a 4 tech (inside shoulder of OT) and his job was to tie up OL.

BigTimeTexanFan
05-02-2006, 10:29 PM
Now with the addition of Mario William and TJ on the inside along with R.Smith and Weaver holding the other end spot, you could say that our front line is finally something that resembles NFL quality.

It has been said many times before that games are won and lost in the trenches. Well we sure have had our fair share of losses and we all know how bad our lines have been especially with the lack of pass rush on the defensive side. Hopefully this revamped (and younger) defensive line, maybe our entire defense will look much better:twocents:

Cincinnatikid
05-02-2006, 10:36 PM
Mario is going to be a freak for sure, but with weaver onthe other side that is a lot of beef for run stopping, and maybe not pass rush. Weaver is by no means a pass rushing end, he is a run stopping end. The problem with this comes when teams want to throw on 1 and 2nd downs, or 3rd and short. The pass rush may not be enough in those situations to have a much improved pass defense. Mario should be a left DE in the NFL, not a RDE, and i think playing these two the majority of the time together may be a problem.

whiskeyrbl
05-02-2006, 10:48 PM
I would love to think that we could trade Peek and get some picks next year or a higher price DB or RB

I wouldn't give up on Peek just yet,With all the new players and talentbase growing expect a couple of so-so players to become above average this year.I think Peek is going to be one of those guys.

Texans_Chick
05-03-2006, 09:31 AM
I wanted to add one more thing to this thread.

Unlike the offensive line, where you want the same guys in there as much as possible to get consistency, on the defensive line these days, because of the demands on that side of the ball, you want the ability to have a quality rotation of players.

IIRC, one of the reasons why the Cleveland defensive lineman had a much better result in Denver when they moved there is that they were a part of a rotation, and weren't getting gassed by the 4th quarter.

Moving to the 4-3, we were going to be hard pressed for good depth. I feel a whole lot better about our line.

Hawg
05-03-2006, 09:47 AM
I am a big fan of having drafted Mario.

That being said, there is merit to the argument that our defensive line may have been fine by itself.

Sure, we were the 31st ranked defense last year, but back then, we were running the 3-4 defense, not the 4-3 that we are running now. Without Williams, we essentially added three linemen:

A) Anthony Weaver, LE (He'd play on top of the right tackle, for sure if Babin was opposite him)
B) Travis Johnson, DT (I include him as an addition, because now he will get to play differently than he did in a 3-4; he'll get to attack, rather than contain, making him a completely different player)
C) Jason Babin, RE (Moving to a new position, he could have been the monster that he was in college. Hell, even if he was merely mediocre at the position, it would be an upgrade over the pass rush we had previousy).

That makes 3/4 roster spots changed and upgraded. We added Williams, which further anchored the line, but our line wasn't looking SO bad without him.

Personally, I would like to see the line consist of
RE: Mario Williams
DT: Weaver, Johnson, Payne/Smith(whichever one stays on the roster)
LE: Jason Babin

as far as starters, but somehow, I doubt that will happen. That's my preferred DL lineup, however.

I'm really scared of what's going to happen to Babin. I don't relish the thought of discounting him completely. I'd rather have him out there on the line than riding the pine.

I see your point but I realy dont see the pass rush being a whole lot better than last year if you dont get Williams. Maybe im wrong. Also at this point i dont see Johnson or babin starting. This is how i see our line shaping up.
RE:Williams
DT:Payne and Smith
LE:Weaver

thunderkyss
05-03-2006, 10:14 AM
even if our D line was fine, you have to understand, and take into consideration that Denver(Kubiak) does not value a runningback high enough to ever consider as a #1 overall selection. To think Reggie Bush was rated higher than Mario on Kubiaks card is silly.

His card more than likely looked like:
Mario Williams
D'Brick
Vince
Reggie

Mario over D'Brick, simply because he'll be looking to shed a few pounds on the OL anyway, in the near future.

edo783
05-03-2006, 10:40 AM
IMO, our D-line was going to be at best average. Above average against the run and below average against the pass for an overall of about average. Vertually everyone on this board complaind loudly about the lack of work on either the defnsive or offensive lines for 4 years as the game is won in the trenches and we had nearly zero pass rush. Well guess what, we did and are doing the adult thing. We are fixing the trenches and developing the means of a pass rush. Not chassing after the flashy pick, but rather the right pick. I to was looking forward to watching Reggie stop on a dime and give 9 cents change, but this is the right thing for the team to actually succeed now and in the future.

Mailman04
05-03-2006, 11:10 AM
The DL wasn't fine. I wanted Bush too, but this post is misleading and Houston needed a DE as much as they needed a RB. Kubiak has had success plugging in RBs drafted in all the rounds at Denver with virtually the same results so no surprise he didn't take Bush.

TheOgre
05-03-2006, 11:30 AM
Wide reciever is also on the short list in Denver..... prepare to be loosing AJ in the coming years.... the contract Molds got, is pretty close to max what a reciever should be getting....

I would imagine Javon Walker is making decent $$$'s. Also, how much is Rod Smith making? I agree about RB, but I am not sold on that statement about receivers.

BigBull17
05-03-2006, 11:32 AM
No, our most pressing needs going into the draft were oline and front seven. I think they did a great job addressing both and looked into other needs. Our tight ends arent world beaters and we needed a big brute RB and we got them. Overall a good, maybe great, draft.

Honoring Earl 34
05-03-2006, 11:37 AM
You know a Mercedes is really not as good of a car as a Lexus . If you ask though most people think its the best because of their name .

TheOgre
05-03-2006, 11:39 AM
Who needs a home run hitter when the defense sets you up at the opponent's 30? That's what Williams is designed to help do.

I like Williams. I just think the team might still need a new RB in the future. Despite how well Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell did last year, I thought their rushing attack was more fierce with Portis. They made a great trade because of the value they got (Champ and Tatum Bell). I'd do that same trade again. However, if I were them, I would upgrade over Bell.

The same is true for the Texans. DD is fine, but you could scare the heck out of a team if you had a back that could bust it long. Next year should be about fixing the secondary and possibly upgrading the RB position. LB will possibly be a need position as well.

gtexan02
05-03-2006, 12:34 PM
]']Sorry man, but I stopped reading right there and came to the conclusion that you are INSANE!

Not a personal attack, I really think he is insane...........

31st in overall defense does not make it "fine"

I stopped reading YOUR post when you proved that were too short-sighted to realize that WE SWITCHED DEFENSIVE SCHEMES!!!! AHHH, this board makes me so frustrated. Why do people not realize that players chaning positoins WILL CHANGE THEIR PERFORMANCE! Thanks for your medical opinion on my sanity Gary Kubiak, but heres my opinion: You clearly don't understand how coaching and schemes affect football. You must go by player ratings independently of anything else (which is fine, bc with madden+fantasy football a lot do this).

So let me educate you on this one. The Texans switched from a 3-4(!!!) to a 4-3(!!!) defense. This means that instead of having 3 down lineman occupying blockers (this is why ray lewis was pissed, bc his lineman couldn't occupy blockers) and 4 linebackers, one of which is supposed to rush the passer, we now have 4 down lineman trying to penetrate the backfield and 3 linebackers dropping into coverage or stuffing the run. Why does this matter? Let me tell you:

In the 3-4 our line consisted of Smith playing DE (he isnt fast enough to rush around the corner), and TJ playing DE (he played DT in college and couldn't get used to not attacking the QB). Our new line would have looked like this:

A)Babin at DE (This would IMPROVE his play bc in college he was a pass rushing monster, and by limiting his role to hit the QB, he would have excelled. He had a lot of problems identifiying holes the DL was making for him in the 3-4 and couldn't react fast enough to get by the OTs. In the 4-3, you simply attack and rely on speed from the weak side DE position, something that Babin has proven he CAN do in college)
B)TJ, Smith, and Payne at DT. All three of these guys were originally touted as DT. Smith and Payne are run stuffing hole pluggers, while TJ was great at penetrating the gap and attacking the QB. Switching back to their native positions will again, IMPROVE our OL
C)Weaver at DE. He was a starter on the Ravens 3-4 DE and was a fantastic run stuffer. Switching to the 4-3 he should continue to excel in this role (he better, we paid him 13million guaranteed!!).

SO my point? Our DL SUCKED last year (31st, ouch!), but by switching to the 4-3 (read the players comments about this) and adding key personel (Babin to DE, Weaver to DE, Peek to DE, Kalu to DE, TJ to DT) we WOULD have improved. We didn't need Williams to improve. Sure he is an upgrade, but that upgrade would have been better spent (54 million!?!) elsewhere. Now our DL consists of: Weaver, Williams, Payne, (HUGE contracts) TJ and Babin (1st round picks!), Smith (big contract) and Peek (HUGE potential who will never see the field). That is a lot of talent and money going to waste because of this pick

gtexan02
05-03-2006, 12:36 PM
PS: Why can people say that coaching will improve our offense, but when I say our DL will be improved by coaching, people start throwing out DSM diagnoses. Richard Smith + Kubiak + improved OL coaching would all have improved our DL regardless of additions. Loss of Capers alone would have inspired our boys

thunderkyss
05-03-2006, 12:42 PM
I would imagine Javon Walker is making decent $$$'s. Also, how much is Rod Smith making? I agree about RB, but I am not sold on that statement about receivers.


I think Rod's base salary is something like $3.4 mill........ I don't remember what kind of Bonus he got..... I'm interested to see what Javon Walker got also.... They've never had a "big time" reciever in Denver. The QB is the key, protect him, and get to him....... everything revolves around what the QB does.

You know a Mercedes is really not as good of a car as a Lexus . If you ask though most people think its the best because of their name .

I get your point, bad analogy though....... a lexus may be better than the "cheaper" more affordable Mercedes, but there is so much new engineering and inovation in a Mercedes, that it's worth the premium over a Lexus... which just a nice Toyota.....

I like Williams. I just think the team might still need a new RB in the future.

You're right..... first things first though. It starts on the line. which may take years to get to where it needs to be. Reggie is going to be running his but off in N.O. for nothing... they won't go anywhere, until they fix that OLine(can't believe I'm saying this about another team). There D looks good, so I can see the Saints doing something next year...... but if they don't do something to get some young guys to replace those old men on their line, in next years draft, then forget about them for a few years.

thunderkyss
05-03-2006, 12:58 PM
SO my point? Our DL SUCKED last year (31st, ouch!), but by switching to the 4-3 (read the players comments about this) and adding key personel (Babin to DE, Weaver to DE, Peek to DE, Kalu to DE, TJ to DT) we WOULD have improved. We didn't need Williams to improve. Sure he is an upgrade, but that upgrade would have been better spent (54 million!?!) elsewhere. Now our DL consists of: Weaver, Williams, Payne, (HUGE contracts) TJ and Babin (1st round picks!), Smith (big contract) and Peek (HUGE potential who will never see the field). That is a lot of talent and money going to waste because of this pick

PS: Why can people say that coaching will improve our offense, but when I say our DL will be improved by coaching, people start throwing out DSM diagnoses. Richard Smith + Kubiak + improved OL coaching would all have improved our DL regardless of additions. Loss of Capers alone would have inspired our boys

I don't know what it is you're getting at. Where else did you want to spend that money?? Runningback?? or OLine??

Look when these guys thought we were going to draft Reggie, they all said the same thing as you....... going to a 4-3 is going to help..... Weaver is a plus..... Kalu should add depth, more options, and a better rotation.

Kubiak made his decision..... Mario..... (which if you ask me, was the only real choice he had).... and everyone is now saying...... you know that really does make more sense. Because it does.

No matter how you try to look at it, our backfield was better, and more productive than our D-Line, or our pass rush. the only person we added to that line, was Weaver..... and he's not a pass rusher.

Tell you what..... I gaurantee you we will have a 1000+ yard season out of DD in 2006. and if he gets hurt, we'll still have over 1000 yards rushing. Expect us to have 1800 yards rushing as a team. that's what we had in 2005 overall, a bad year for our team. That's what we had in 2004, and we had 1600 yards in 2003. So we have good solid evidence that we will have 1800 rushing yards in 2006. Everything we've done so far has been to improve our team...... we should get better at running the ball.

We had no pass rush in 2005, 2004, 2003, or 2002........ adding Weaver does not change that. Sure we can tell ourselves that we'll have more sacks, QB hurries and what not in 2006, but we can't be going into a season with hopes and dreams, with no evidence to support them.

BigTimeTexanFan
05-03-2006, 01:18 PM
The sme can be said of Reggie bush, Vince Young, (insert any other rookie). It doesn't matter how great a college player is, they are all "projects".

gtexan02
05-03-2006, 01:37 PM
PS2: Please note that despite my anti-Williams postings, I think he's gonna be a monster. I love the guy's potential, I just don't think he was worth #1 overall

BigBull17
05-03-2006, 02:33 PM
Yeah but if he was your guy you had as the best and most needed, then you had to take him #1. That was hier problem, they wanted to trade down but there was no way they would have been able to trade down and get him.

William.carter
05-03-2006, 02:48 PM
PS2: Please note that despite my anti-Williams postings, I think he's gonna be a monster. I love the guy's potential, I just don't think he was worth #1 overall


So tell me what scenario you can come up with where the Texans trade down to pick up extra picks and are 100% certain that they still get their man. I'm not trying to attack you or your opinion. In fact I consider your point of view in every post of yours I read, but if the Texans feel like Williams is their guy, How can they trade down and know that they will get him? NO had him #2 on their hit list and would have snatched him up in a second.

So say you trade down with the Jets to get him and you pick up both their first rounders and a 2nd or 3rd. You'd have to give both of the 1st round picks to NO to trade back up to make sure they didn't take Williams theirselves. So what's the point, moving down 1 spot for an extra 3rd round pick? In the grand scheme of things the Texans trading down could have only been a benefit to New Orleans.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
05-03-2006, 03:03 PM
PS2: Please note that despite my anti-Williams postings, I think he's gonna be a monster. I love the guy's potential, I just don't think he was worth #1 overall


We were not the only teams that had Williams a #1 Pick. It was a toss up as far as talent between Bush and Williams. Williams was the best pick for the TEAM for the direction they need to go. It just so happens Houston had the #1 pick and noone to trade down with 1 spot to get Williams. If Houston took bush, NOLA would have taken Williams.

Williams is not going to "help improve" the defensive line, HE JUST SOLIDIFIED THE D-LINE.

Think about this for a minute. Williams lines up at DE on the Left, opposing Oline has to make sure they get to him leaving others open to the QB, Williams then moves to the DE Right side, same thing, Now he lines up at DT. The QB of the opposing team is freaking out because he does not know what direction he is coming from.

That, my friendly fan, is what Williams is bringing to this team!!! A threat from all directions and mismatched blocking assignments.

Kube already said he will be used at all 4 positions on the line. Wanna have some fun...

You can now put him at DT and now you have 3 or 4 pass rushing run stopping fast big guys on the front four. Not to shabby!!!

gtexan02
05-03-2006, 07:05 PM
So tell me what scenario you can come up with where the Texans trade down to pick up extra picks and are 100% certain that they still get their man. I'm not trying to attack you or your opinion. In fact I consider your point of view in every post of yours I read, but if the Texans feel like Williams is their guy, How can they trade down and know that they will get him? NO had him #2 on their hit list and would have snatched him up in a second.

So say you trade down with the Jets to get him and you pick up both their first rounders and a 2nd or 3rd. You'd have to give both of the 1st round picks to NO to trade back up to make sure they didn't take Williams theirselves. So what's the point, moving down 1 spot for an extra 3rd round pick? In the grand scheme of things the Texans trading down could have only been a benefit to New Orleans.

I think I may have confused my point again (I have trouble posting clearly on messageboards because you can't have inflections, etc). Anyways, here was what I was saying: A) I love Williams because I think he'll be amazing, but B) I don't think the Texans needed him, and C) I don't think he was #1 material anway

phan1
05-04-2006, 12:47 AM
No, it wasn't fine. Did you watch games last season? We were 32nd against the run. Larry Johnson and Shawn Alexander, while both good running backs, EMBARRASSED US ON NATIONAL TV! You can blame coaching for the lack of offensive production, but when guys are dominating you on the ground, that is simply because of the lack of talent, not schemes.

Peek and Babin are OVERRATED! Your average NFL fan has no idea who these guys are. And why would they? These guys are talked about so much yet they have done so little for us. We need Mario.

Cincinnatikid
05-04-2006, 08:47 AM
No, it wasn't fine. Did you watch games last season? We were 32nd against the run. Larry Johnson and Shawn Alexander, while both good running backs, EMBARRASSED US ON NATIONAL TV! You can blame coaching for the lack of offensive production, but when guys are dominating you on the ground, that is simply because of the lack of talent, not schemes.

Peek and Babin are OVERRATED! Your average NFL fan has no idea who these guys are. And why would they? These guys are talked about so much yet they have done so little for us. We need Mario.

They have done little because of the horrible react scheme they were in. THey were not allowed to play like a OLB or DE on any other team. Fangio made them sit and wait to see what they were going to do next instead of knowing before the snap. They have much more potential than they were allowed to show.

thunderkyss
05-04-2006, 09:20 AM
They have done little because of the horrible react scheme they were in. THey were not allowed to play like a OLB or DE on any other team. Fangio made them sit and wait to see what they were going to do next instead of knowing before the snap. They have much more potential than they were allowed to show.

That's not entirely true..... in our 3-4, the LBs, are supposed to read the line, much like a runningback does in a zone blocking scheme. Our biggest problem, was that our down linemen didn't buy into the system, and weren't playing like they were supposed to. We weren't asking our LBs to do anything other 3-4 teams weren't doing. We were not as aggressive as we should've been, and that's why Peek and Babin don't have a gazillion sacks.

As an OSLB in a 3-4, Peeks responsibilities were to attack the line, contain the run, and at times provide coverage....... The difference, going into a 4-3, is that he'll be asked to provide pass coverage a lot less, but with his size, & experience in coverage, he gives the coaches something to work with that he might not have with other linemen.

But in a 4-3, he's going to go head's up with the Offensive tackles.... more times than not, these guys will outweigh him by 50-60 pounds. He's fast, compared to these guys, but they only need to step aroung an "arc", while he has to run all the way around them. Unless he is incredibly strong for his size, don't expect him to bullrush anyone, or swim through an offensive line, or do the Reggie White club on anyone but a tightend.

Peek is more of a big linebacker, Where Babin is more of a small DE.

LIke I've said before, He's been my favorite Linebaker of our bunch, but if anyone is the odd man out, it's him. He's the most explosive, high energy aggresive guy we've had in our 3-4..... but in a 4-3, I can think of other LBs I'd rather keep... I can think of other Linemen I'd rather keep..... I see a spot for him on this team, but I don't think it is ideal for him.

Texans_Chick
05-04-2006, 09:25 AM
PS: Why can people say that coaching will improve our offense, but when I say our DL will be improved by coaching, people start throwing out DSM diagnoses. Richard Smith + Kubiak + improved OL coaching would all have improved our DL regardless of additions. Loss of Capers alone would have inspired our boys


FWIW, Kubiak yesterday said that it would be wrong to tell Richard Smith to run a 4-3 but make him do it with mostly personnel suited to a 3-4. That he had to get him more playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.

HJam72
05-04-2006, 09:43 AM
That's not entirely true..... in our 3-4, the LBs, are supposed to read the line, much like a runningback does in a zone blocking scheme. Our biggest problem, was that our down linemen didn't buy into the system, and weren't playing like they were supposed to. We weren't asking our LBs to do anything other 3-4 teams weren't doing. We were not as aggressive as we should've been, and that's why Peek and Babin don't have a gazillion sacks.

As an OSLB in a 3-4, Peeks responsibilities were to attack the line, contain the run, and at times provide coverage....... The difference, going into a 4-3, is that he'll be asked to provide pass coverage a lot less, but with his size, & experience in coverage, he gives the coaches something to work with that he might not have with other linemen.

But in a 4-3, he's going to go head's up with the Offensive tackles.... more times than not, these guys will outweigh him by 50-60 pounds. He's fast, compared to these guys, but they only need to step aroung an "arc", while he has to run all the way around them. Unless he is incredibly strong for his size, don't expect him to bullrush anyone, or swim through an offensive line, or do the Reggie White club on anyone but a tightend.

Peek is more of a big linebacker, Where Babin is more of a small DE.

LIke I've said before, He's been my favorite Linebaker of our bunch, but if anyone is the odd man out, it's him. He's the most explosive, high energy aggresive guy we've had in our 3-4..... but in a 4-3, I can think of other LBs I'd rather keep... I can think of other Linemen I'd rather keep..... I see a spot for him on this team, but I don't think it is ideal for him.


Good post. I agree and I think Peek needs to be traded somehow, but Kubiak has mentioned using Williams on the inside and putting Babin/Peek at the RDE position on 3rd and long (6 or more), so who knows. Maybe Peek stays just for that and as a backup LB and Babin goes or maybe Babin stays for that and as a backup RDE and Peek goes. Babin is bigger, but Peek is faster. How fast and small do you want to be at RDE on 3rd and long? I think Mario is exactly what we need at RDE on 3rd and Long anyway myself. Mostly, I really don't think they should both stay.

thunderkyss
05-04-2006, 09:50 AM
Good post. I agree and I think Peek needs to be traded somehow, but Kubiak has mentioned using Williams on the inside and putting Babin/Peek at the RDE position on 3rd and long (6 or more), so who knows. Maybe Peek stays just for that and as a backup LB and Babin goes or maybe Babin stays for that and as a backup RDE and Peek goes. Babin is bigger, but Peek is faster. How fast and small do you want to be at RDE on 3rd and long? I think Mario is exactly what we need at RDE on 3rd and Long anyway myself. Mostly, I really don't think they should both stay.

when all you've got is speed, it won't be too hard to take him out of the equation. He's got to play next to Robaire Smith, and Robaire has got to dominate his position, where the tackle has to help, leaving Peek one on one with a tight end..... or working stunts....

I'm not trying to get rid of Peek, just trying to be realistic. I don't think he, or Babin will be going anywhere, I'm just saying Peek would be a star in a real 3-4, if he could be taught to play smart. We don't have a lot of players that fit the 3-4, but Antwan is definitely one who does.

HJam72
05-04-2006, 10:22 AM
Seems to me that that means he ought to be worth more in a trade than he is to this team now that we're going to a 4-3. I don't know if that's actually true or not, but it seems like it ought to be.

Cincinnatikid
05-04-2006, 10:22 AM
when all you've got is speed, it won't be too hard to take him out of the equation. He's got to play next to Robaire Smith, and Robaire has got to dominate his position, where the tackle has to help, leaving Peek one on one with a tight end..... or working stunts....

I'm not trying to get rid of Peek, just trying to be realistic. I don't think he, or Babin will be going anywhere, I'm just saying Peek would be a star in a real 3-4, if he could be taught to play smart. We don't have a lot of players that fit the 3-4, but Antwan is definitely one who does.

Most of the time last season Peek was one on one with the LT anyway. I would also have to argue that he has some strength to do more than a simple speed rush. Its been stated he has gotten even bigger and stronger already this season. He is going to be similar in size to Freeny, so the issue is really just applying his skills to DE. Now that he may be back at DE he will be able to go back to his old moves from college. He has some strength because in college i saw use a simple bull rush and was able to pancake the Tackles, obviously they arent NFL tackles but still has the strength.

I do agree he would be a star in a real 3-4, but I also think he can be effective in the 4-3.

thunderkyss
05-04-2006, 10:36 AM
Most of the time last season Peek was one on one with the LT anyway.
Which proves my point.
1) he can't beat them
2) the downlinemen weren't doing their job
3) Antwan wasn't doing his job
I would also have to argue that he has some strength to do more than a simple speed rush. Its been stated he has gotten even bigger and stronger already this season. He is going to be similar in size to Freeny, so the issue is really just applying his skills to DE. Now that he may be back at DE he will be able to go back to his old moves from college. He has some strength because in college i saw use a simple bull rush and was able to pancake the Tackles, obviously they arent NFL tackles but still has the strength.
I don't watch much college football. But I doubt he was playing the big athletic Tackles you see in the NFL. If he was bullrushing tackles in college, that tackle more than likely didn't make it to the NFL.

I'd like to see how much weight he gains, and what that does to his speed/strength...... how much of a trade off. But at his size last year, there's no way he brings anything to the DE position but speed. I said he was outweighed by 50-60 pounds earlier, but it's more like 60-90lbs.

If he is happy about going to a 4-3..... if he brings the energy and aggresion he has in the past...... and if he's determined to make a difference, I'm all for him being a Houston Texan. I'd more than likely root for him, as much as I will for Mario(to get the numbers and shut up the critics).

I do agree he would be a star in a real 3-4, but I also think he can be effective in the 4-3.

& I prefer a 3-4 defense to a 4-3.... much less reliant on raw physical talent, and relies more on smarts, and fitting the system. Forget about match ups, and devise schemes to give you your advantage. But it takes longer to learn.

HJam72
05-04-2006, 10:38 AM
Quote from Cincinattikid:
************************************************** *************
Most of the time last season Peek was one on one with the LT anyway. I would also have to argue that he has some strength to do more than a simple speed rush. Its been stated he has gotten even bigger and stronger already this season. He is going to be similar in size to Freeny, so the issue is really just applying his skills to DE. Now that he may be back at DE he will be able to go back to his old moves from college. He has some strength because in college i saw use a simple bull rush and was able to pancake the Tackles, obviously they arent NFL tackles but still has the strength.

I do agree he would be a star in a real 3-4, but I also think he can be effective in the 4-3.
************************************************** ***************


I come to this site more to learn (and make stupid comments) :) than anything else, but you people confuse the **** outta me! :)

amazingandre
05-04-2006, 08:08 PM
Honestly there is nothing more to say than our dl SUCKED last year!!!!! We gave up more passes and td's than any other team. And as i recall we had the worse record? right? the offense may not have scored, but they didn't give up td's the defense did. Our whole d except a few players need to be dealt with. so stop *****in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and deal with MW:superman:

gtexan02
05-04-2006, 08:31 PM
Honestly there is nothing more to say than our dl SUCKED last year!!!!! We gave up more passes and td's than any other team. And as i recall we had the worse record? right? the offense may not have scored, but they didn't give up td's the defense did. Our whole d except a few players need to be dealt with. so stop *****in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and deal with MW:superman:

Please read the previous posts before posting. Our DL was possibly the worst in the league last year, yes, but a lot of that was because of injuries (GW), Motivation (TJ), and players being out of positiong (Smith, Johnson, Walker, etc). We added a stuffer in Weaver, and put Babin and Peek back at their natural position, thus CHANGING our DL, thus making it FINE. It wasnt fine last year, the topic title means it WOULD HAVE BEEN fine.

CoastalTexan
05-04-2006, 08:35 PM
I just wanna see us be aggressive and hit some QB's and RB's in the backfield. I can just picture TJ and Peek goin crazy after they level some poor Qb (insert name). Then we get a 15 yard penalty against us, but hey... its just entertainment right?

champ1234
05-04-2006, 08:55 PM
Please read the previous posts before posting. Our DL was possibly the worst in the league last year, yes, but a lot of that was because of injuries (GW), Motivation (TJ), and players being out of positiong (Smith, Johnson, Walker, etc). We added a stuffer in Weaver, and put Babin and Peek back at their natural position, thus CHANGING our DL, thus making it FINE. It wasnt fine last year, the topic title means it WOULD HAVE BEEN fine.

I just have to point out that over the last several games last season, we had Babin up on the line playing a 43 DE. He did decent, but in no way was he something to write home about. I remember a lot of posters ripping the FO a new one for signing Weaver b/c posters didn't think to highly of him. The truth is, we have no real clue how well our DL would have been without MW this year unless injury occurs (knock on wood). Relax and wait for what's to come.