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View Full Version : Mario's success will not be measured by sacks!


[[Gary Kubiak]]
05-01-2006, 12:04 AM
It's the constant pressure that his presence will place on the opposing offense. That pressure will make EVERYBODY better.

People can't say, "Mario is a bust if he does not get X amount of sacks".
It's been overstated, but Mario is a physical freak. That's not even the best thing going for him. He is one, if not the best technician to come out in 10 years years from the DE position.

Youngstown Colt
05-01-2006, 12:10 AM
If you do go back to playing the 4-3, than it's very realistic to say his impact will be measured in sacks. He has all the tools to be a big time sack artist, not a big time pressure guy.

Texas
05-01-2006, 12:15 AM
Man I dont care..As long as he does his job and exceeds a bit then im happy!

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 12:28 AM
]']It's the constant pressure that his presence will place on the opposing offense. That pressure will make EVERYBODY better.

People can't say, "Mario is a bust if he does not get X amount of sacks".
It's been overstated, but Mario is a physical freak. That's not even the best thing going for him. He is one, if not the best technician to come out in 10 years years from the DE position.

Ahh I see the excuse for a potential bad first season have begun. Fact is fact this young man has to have a Reggie White kind of season right out of the gates. He has to be up to the levels of Freeny and Peppers. If he isn't he is going to be considered a flop by a massive majority of the fans. It might not be fair and it definatley isn't his fault but that is what is in front of Williams at this moment and will continue to be until he proves otherwise. Unfortunatly the city has be primed now to destroy this young man and like it or not that is just the way it is.

Texans86
05-01-2006, 12:35 AM
Ahh I see the excuse for a potential bad first season have begun. Fact is fact this young man has to have a Reggie White kind of season right out of the gates. He has to be up to the levels of Freeny and Peppers. If he isn't he is going to be considered a flop by a massive majority of the fans. It might not be fair and it definatley isn't his fault but that is what is in front of Williams at this moment and will continue to be until he proves otherwise. Unfortunatly the city has be primed now to destroy this young man and like it or not that is just the way it is.

Are we taking into account the fact that even the almighty Bush might not have a great season. He still has to get used to the NFL as well. What happens if he gets injured, or holds out or simply doesn't perform up to the highest standards. Does that make our pick a good pick or not. These drafts aren't scored for at least three years, usually four.

There's no reason to expect a pro-bowl season from a rookie, only two out of last year's draft actually accomplished that, and one played for the Texans. The other went #11 to San Diego. No one can seriously expect a pro-bowl from any rookie, including Mr. Bush. That's an unfair comparison. Once he gets a year under his belt, then the stakes are raised much higher.

LBC_Justin
05-01-2006, 12:41 AM
Ahh I see the excuse for a potential bad first season have begun. Fact is fact this young man has to have a Reggie White kind of season right out of the gates. He has to be up to the levels of Freeny and Peppers. If he isn't he is going to be considered a flop by a massive majority of the fans. It might not be fair and it definatley isn't his fault but that is what is in front of Williams at this moment and will continue to be until he proves otherwise. Unfortunatly the city has be primed now to destroy this young man and like it or not that is just the way it is.Bush is the best prospect in the last bazillion years. Right?! That's what everyone is saying.

So in my opinion the Texans made the right choice if he doesn't get 1500 rushing yards, close to 1000 recieving yards and score 25 TD's and make NFL primetime EVERY week.

That is the kind of presure he is facing.

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 12:41 AM
Are we taking into account the fact that even the almighty Bush might not have a great season. He still has to get used to the NFL as well. What happens if he gets injured, or holds out or simply doesn't perform up to the highest standards. Does that make our pick a good pick or not. These drafts aren't scored for at least three years, usually four.

There's no reason to expect a pro-bowl season from a rookie, only two out of last year's draft actually accomplished that, and one played for the Texans. The other went #11 to San Diego. No one can seriously expect a pro-bowl from any rookie, including Mr. Bush. That's an unfair comparison. Once he gets a year under his belt, then the stakes are raised much higher.

Uhh what does this have to do with determing if Williams is a flop or a success. Sure he is going to be compared to Vince and Bush thats to be expected but at the end of the day what is going to determine his status as a success or failure is how he plays on our team. And unfortunatley for him that bar hasn't been set high it has been set really really high. And thats just the way it is.

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 12:49 AM
Bush is the best prospect in the last bazillion years. Right?! That's what everyone is saying.

So in my opinion the Texans made the right choice if he doesn't get 1500 rushing yards, close to 1000 recieving yards and score 25 TD's and make NFL primetime EVERY week.

That is the kind of presure he is facing.

Thats very true. But the difference between the situations now is the fans. This city could have taken losing with Bush but with the way things have panned out now they will not tolerate losing with Williams. As I said this city has now been primed to come down on him if he dosen't perform to the expectations and hype that has been given to him in the last few days by his supporters.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
05-01-2006, 12:57 AM
Thats very true. But the difference between the situations now is the fans. This city could have taken losing with Bush but with the way things have panned out now they will not tolerate losing with Williams. As I said this city has now been primed to come down on him if he dosen't perform to the expectations and hype that has been given to him in the last few days by his supporters.

That is just plain dumb.. not you, but the fact that fans can "willing to lose with Bush" I would be more pressure as a fan to place higher standards especially the way Bush has protrayed himself. Williams has not protrayed himself and a GOD from the NCAA... He has protrayed himself as a player that will come with it all and leave nothing on the field and give everyone his best.

We are forgetting something here... ALL OF THESE ATHLETES ARE UNPROVEN IN THE NFL!!!

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 01:05 AM
That is just plain dumb.. not you, but the fact that fans can "willing to lose with Bush" I would be more pressure as a fan to place higher standards especially the way Bush has protrayed himself. Williams has not protrayed himself and a GOD from the NCAA... He has protrayed himself as a player that will come with it all and leave nothing on the field and give everyone his best.

We are forgetting something here... ALL OF THESE ATHLETES ARE UNPROVEN IN THE NFL!!!

I to agree that it is dumb but when you have known nothing but losing it is a reality that can be expected.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
05-01-2006, 01:08 AM
I to agree that it is dumb but when you have known nothing but losing it is a reality that can be expected.

As a Bear fan I know about losing... and I am not willing to LOSE with Cedric Benson because we picked him 4th overall. Nor am I willing to lose because we picked up Moose at WR either.

That is what Baseball is for Cubs fans talk like that.

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 01:18 AM
As a Bear fan I know about losing... and I am not willing to LOSE with Cedric Benson because we picked him 4th overall. Nor am I willing to lose because we picked up Moose at WR either.

That is what Baseball is for Cubs fans talk like that.

Yeah but you have tasted success as well. I mean your team has been a perennial playoff team.Your team has won like what 19 division titles, 8 NFL championships and a Super Bowl. One could expect your reaction with the success your franchise has had but one could also expect the reaction that I have mentioned with the performance the Texans have put forth as well.

I am not saying it is right. I am just saying that is a reality that can be expected.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
05-01-2006, 01:28 AM
Yeah but you have tasted success as well. I mean your team has been a perennial playoff team.Your team has won like what 19 division titles, 8 NFL championships and a Super Bowl. One could expect your reaction with the success your franchise has had but one could also expect the reaction that I have mentioned with the performance the Texans have put forth as well.

I am not saying it is right. I am just saying that is a reality that can be expected.

I know you guys will have success this season. I have no doubt you all will be over .500 this season or better. I will be cheering and watching every weekend as I have someone I know on your team. Kevin Walter the newly added WR. Having AJ, Moulds, and Kevin on the field at the same time is going to be so much fun to watch. and now that offensive line can start to gel with the addition I was hoping for in Justice. When I saw Flanigan went from GB to you guys I was excited even more. He reminds me of our General of our offensive line in Kreutz!!! Kreutz is better of course, but you would expect me to say that.

dalemurphy
05-01-2006, 01:37 AM
Ahh I see the excuse for a potential bad first season have begun. Fact is fact this young man has to have a Reggie White kind of season right out of the gates. He has to be up to the levels of Freeny and Peppers. If he isn't he is going to be considered a flop by a massive majority of the fans. It might not be fair and it definatley isn't his fault but that is what is in front of Williams at this moment and will continue to be until he proves otherwise. Unfortunatly the city has be primed now to destroy this young man and like it or not that is just the way it is.

Bruce Smith was considered a bust as a rookie in Buffalo. Besides, I think the point was that Mario will make significant contributions apart from the # of sacks he gets credited for. We are talking about a 300 lb DE. Aside from any stat he receives, he and Weaver will allow Greenwood and Ryans (undersized LBs) to play together and rome the field unscaved. Just watch how much better Greenwood looks this year.

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 01:52 AM
Bruce Smith was considered a bust as a rookie in Buffalo. Besides, I think the point was that Mario will make significant contributions apart from the # of sacks he gets credited for. We are talking about a 300 lb DE. Aside from any stat he receives, he and Weaver will allow Greenwood and Ryans (undersized LBs) to play together and rome the field unscaved. Just watch how much better Greenwood looks this year.

Yeah but Smith didn't have a whole city waiting to pounce on him and never recieved that kind of treatment either. This city is so primed right now to have at him I am afraid he won't recover if he performs poorly. Because if he has a bad season the attacks on him are going to be very bad and relentless. A person can only take so much before it starts to affect them permanetly.

Oh and I wasn't basing my arguement on just sacks. As I said before he is going to have to have a Reggie White, Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeny kind of season. He is going to have to be as good and consistent in all the aspects of the game as they were/are right now and he is going to have to do it right out of the gate and all season long or everyone is going to latch onto him like a rabid pitbull.

It isn't fair but as I said before that is the reality that is before this poor kid right now and things aren't looking very good for him right now.

1337texanfan
05-01-2006, 01:57 AM
if mario williams in his first season can impact our defense and bring us into the top half of the nfl defense's this season. i would say that's a bright ray of hope for the future of this defense and franchise. even if he doesnt get alot of sacks, his pressure on the pocket will cause timing issue for QB's. when a typical pocket passer(peyton manning, byron leftwich) get rattled by the continuing collapse of the pocket they start to rush thier progression and make quick and bad choices. if mario can provide constant pressure from the RE and collapse the pocket consistantly(that will be key issue:consistency) he will make any QB feel uncomfortable and will force him to either A) get rid of the ball and risk the INT B) throw the ball away or C) take the sack. either one of these options is fine by me, they all result in a loss of down. i looking forward to seeing this defense in action next season. it should be interesting to say the least.

tsip
05-01-2006, 02:29 AM
Bruce Smith was considered a bust as a rookie in Buffalo. Besides, I think the point was that Mario will make significant contributions apart from the # of sacks he gets credited for. We are talking about a 300 lb DE. Aside from any stat he receives, he and Weaver will allow Greenwood and Ryans (undersized LBs) to play together and rome the field unscaved. Just watch how much better Greenwood looks this year.

Good post.We did not get Mario just for the sacks but for everything he 'brings to the table.' First, he will get his sacks. Second, he will draw double teams which will free up other rushers. Third, he will stop runners behind the line of scrimage--set a new record at NCS for this! He is considered a 'beast' by the experts because he is not 'one dimensional.' He can do it all and do it all very well and-very important-he will help to make other players around him better.

Finally, Bush is all about Bush. Fans will warm up to Mario. We've got good RB's that have already proven they can play/produce in the NFL but-until now-we did not have a 'Mario.' You'll see...:yahoo:

Bobo
05-01-2006, 02:36 AM
If you do go back to playing the 4-3, than it's very realistic to say his impact will be measured in sacks. He has all the tools to be a big time sack artist, not a big time pressure guy.

That's not true at all. Mario's success will be measured in overall turnovers in the form of INTs caused by pressure on the QB as well as incomplete passes caused by the same pressure.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
05-01-2006, 02:38 AM
Mario's success will be measured by his impact to our team defense, not individual stats.

Bobo
05-01-2006, 02:41 AM
Ahh I see the excuse for a potential bad first season have begun. Fact is fact this young man has to have a Reggie White kind of season right out of the gates. He has to be up to the levels of Freeny and Peppers. If he isn't he is going to be considered a flop by a massive majority of the fans. It might not be fair and it definatley isn't his fault but that is what is in front of Williams at this moment and will continue to be until he proves otherwise. Unfortunatly the city has be primed now to destroy this young man and like it or not that is just the way it is.

A Reggie White season right out of the gates. That's a ridiculous statement. You are just trying to find a reason to bury the pick as quick as possible and set an unrealistic standard to hopefully prove you are right. That won't work. And I notice you haven't given any standards we can judge Bush by to declare him a bust. With McAllister in NO, Bush certainly is not going to score his 25 TDs in a season. So what stats does Bush have to meet to not be called a bust? I don't see you saying anything like that. This city isn't any more primed to "destroy this young man" than it would be if Bush came here. This city wants the team to succeed and that's the bottom line. Williams will definitely improve this team much, much more than Bush would have. You just watch what happens to Bush in NO. He's in even a worse position there (two 1,000 yard RBs already there, one a two-time Pro Bowler) than he would have been here. Do you think McAllister is just going to sit around and watch his #s get cut in half and affect his marketability?

Specter
05-01-2006, 02:43 AM
Man I dont care..As long as he does his job and exceeds a bit then im happy!


Exactly!

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
05-01-2006, 02:46 AM
Well since Reggie Bush is supposedly the greatest RB prospect to come out in the last decade, he needs to have 2,066 rushing yards this season to validate himself. Afterall, Jamal Lewis was able to do it in 2003 and he was nowhere nearly as hyped as Reggie Bush.

Specter
05-01-2006, 02:49 AM
if mario williams in his first season can impact our defense and bring us into the top half of the nfl defense's this season. i would say that's a bright ray of hope for the future of this defense and franchise. even if he doesnt get alot of sacks, his pressure on the pocket will cause timing issue for QB's. when a typical pocket passer(peyton manning, byron leftwich) get rattled by the continuing collapse of the pocket they start to rush thier progression and make quick and bad choices. if mario can provide constant pressure from the RE and collapse the pocket consistantly(that will be key issue:consistency) he will make any QB feel uncomfortable and will force him to either A) get rid of the ball and risk the INT B) throw the ball away or C) take the sack. either one of these options is fine by me, they all result in a loss of down. i looking forward to seeing this defense in action next season. it should be interesting to say the least.That's exactly what I'm thinking and I think that he's athletic enough to even if he doesn't collect a ton of sacks, he's going to improve us and I'm looking forward to seeing Dunta collect 7-9 INT's this year. You never know, Super Mario might even make Buchanon look like an NFL DB

:superman: He's our man

Specter
05-01-2006, 02:52 AM
Well since Reggie Bush is supposedly the greatest RB prospect to come out in the last decade, he needs to have 2,066 rushing yards this season to validate himself. Afterall, Jamal Lewis was able to do it in 2003 and he was nowhere nearly as hyped as Reggie Bush.

I think that Bush is overhyped and while he might have talent and potential gushing out of his ears, there is NO way that he can live up to all of it. I still think he'll have a decent shot at rookie of the year although I see Addai winning it since he's stepping into a dream situation where he will pick up big numbers right away and he has the talent to do it.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
05-01-2006, 02:58 AM
If Reggie Bush can't beat Jamal Lewis' 2066 rushing yards then he is a bust. Apparently that's how it works in GhostRaiders eyes. Did I mention he has to do that his rookie year? lol

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 03:05 AM
If Reggie Bush can't beat Jamal Lewis' 2066 rushing yards then he is a bust. Apparently that's how it works in GhostRaiders eyes. Did I mention he has to do that his rookie year? lol

That is a very weak attack. If you want to call me an idiot come right out and say it instead of hiding your insult inside a veiled comment. What does that have do with how Williams is going to be judged here in Houston anyway? I could care less about Reggie Bush. He is a Saint not a Texan.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
05-01-2006, 03:07 AM
Oh, was I attacking you? I'm just going by your "Guide to Measuring Success" theory. You know, the one where you said Mario Williams has to perform at a Reggie White level his rookie season in order to avoid criticism. :)

BradK10
05-01-2006, 03:10 AM
In his defense, I think he was saying that because since a majority of fans are so upset, they're going to have unrealistic expectations for Mario....which is unfortunate

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 03:14 AM
Oh, was I attacking you? I'm just going by your "Guide to Measuring Success" theory. You know, the one where you said Mario Williams has to perform at a Reggie White level his rookie season in order to avoid criticism. :)

Then enlighten us ole wise one. What kind of season will it take for this player to have (in which the majority of his fanbase of his team is ready to call him a bust) to avoid critiscim. I mean most here has said that he is better than Peppers. So what is it going to take?

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 03:15 AM
In his defense, I think he was saying that because since a majority of fans are so upset, they're going to have unrealistic expectations for Mario....which is unfortunate

That is EXACTLY what I was saying in every single post I made here on this thread. Thankyou Brad!!

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
05-01-2006, 03:21 AM
I can't speak on behalf of the majority of the fans, but I could assume that what they want more than anything is a competitive football team. If Mario Williams becomes a major piece to that puzzle, then Houstonians will open up to him and Mario Williams will have his acceptance.

GhostRaider2006
05-01-2006, 08:29 AM
[[Gary Kubiak]] what did either of your post have to do with what I posted in this thread. You need to go back and reread them. All of my post in this thread had to do with this. This was the point that I was trying to make:

In his defense, I think he was saying that because since a majority of fans are so upset, they're going to have unrealistic expectations for Mario....which is unfortunate

Which BradK10 correctly summarized.

Also were in my posts on this thread did you get that our offense will suck because we don't have Bush? I think I made it quite clear that I don't care about Bush anymore because he is a Saint and not a Texan. Infact I rarely mentioned Bush so were are you getting all that from?

Kaiser Toro
05-01-2006, 08:40 AM
We have two players to measure next year in my opinion - Carr and AJ.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
05-01-2006, 02:02 PM
That's not true at all. Mario's success will be measured in overall turnovers in the form of INTs caused by pressure on the QB as well as incomplete passes caused by the same pressure.


I agree 100% there is more than just sacks that you will not see him get. If he does his part, there is no reason why the rest of the guys cannot average decent sack numbers and the DBs should have multiple interceptions this season as well as a result of pressures and know downs on the opposing QBs.

Another thing the DBs need to do as a result of this is always hit a WR (Legally) on every attempt to catch the ball. They need to make a presence that you are going to get hit if you happen to get your hands on that ball.

With that combination, defense will become a 15 rank defense and that is a HUGE!!! impact from the draft and free agency and coaching in 1 year.

I do not thing Reggie would solely move you from bottom ranks to 15th offense alone. There are many additions made in the offseason that can move you up to 20 alone.

Not bad!!

eltoro
05-01-2006, 02:09 PM
I believe the entire defense is on the bubble this season - especially the line. With three first round picks playing on the line, they absolutely better have a solid pass rush. Simply no excuse.

Chance_C
05-01-2006, 02:46 PM
What kind of season will it take for this player to have (in which the majority of his fanbase of his team is ready to call him a bust) to avoid critiscim. I mean most here has said that he is better than Peppers. So what is it going to take?


I'll take Peppers' rookie season of 12 sacks! DROY in 12 games. Let's hope that Williams doesn't get any of those same "dietary" supplements...:rolleyes:

Porky
05-01-2006, 03:27 PM
Bruce Smith was considered a bust as a rookie in Buffalo. Besides, I think the point was that Mario will make significant contributions apart from the # of sacks he gets credited for. We are talking about a 300 lb DE. Aside from any stat he receives, he and Weaver will allow Greenwood and Ryans (undersized LBs) to play together and rome the field unscaved. Just watch how much better Greenwood looks this year.

That's a good point, and one I hadn't really considered. I do expect a better Greenwood this year. Ryans is a rook, but hopefully we just see steady play from him. I see him as more solid than flashy, but that's what we need. As far as the Dline, we should (on paper) have one of the best and deepest dlines in the league.

Kaiser Toro
05-01-2006, 03:31 PM
That's a good point, and one I hadn't really considered. I do expect a better Greenwood this year. Ryans is a rook, but hopefully we just see steady play from him. I see him as more solid than flashy, but that's what we need. As far as the Dline, we should (on paper) have one of the best and deepest dlines in the league.

I am all about setting realistic expectations, but must agree that on paper we do have a top tier DLine.

1337texanfan
05-01-2006, 06:05 PM
i have to say more i look at this defense the more i am liking it. whom ever is sloted to be the ROLB should have a nice season with mario in front of him. once mario polishes up his pass rushing move, he end up having to be double teamed to keep the pocket from collapsing on the blind side. if this does happen it will give the ROLB all kinds of room to make plays if he is coming off the edge. the blind side blitz will prolly be a effective tool by the end of the season. this year is gonna be a growing year for the defense as a unit with the adjustment back to the 4-3. with anthony weaver on the LE and mario on the RE, with travis johnson moved to DT and seth payne there we have a pretty heavy line and i dont figure that running lanes will stay open long with those guys on the field. with the Dline cloggin up the middle our linebackers should be free to wreak havoc where they see fit. alot of pressure should be takin off our secondary as well. it is a well know when QB's worry more about the rush then they are about reading the secondary, that cause's the INT. defense tells a NFL QB where he is too throw but without the time for them to make the right reads they screw up. a great example of this is david carr for the past 4 years. when you only have 2 to 3 seconds to try and make it threw your progressions then thing's are not going to bode well for your team on that sunday. one the one way to make sure you stop any team in the NFL is to get to the QB. if the QB is rattled then that offense is rattled. the QB's play in the game has the biggest effect of the outcome of the game.

Bobo
05-01-2006, 06:11 PM
i have to say more i look at this defense the more i am liking it.

Looking at where both the offense and the defense finished last year, both should show improvement.