PDA

View Full Version : Steve Jackson - How 'Bout Dem Rams!


Mistril48
08-28-2004, 11:45 AM
Many draft prognosticators thought that the C'boys were fortunate indeed that Steve Jackson had fallen into their laps at the 22nd pick. Exactly what they needed ... a better RB than Troy Hambrick to help in the development of Quincy Carter. Most were shocked when the C'boys passed on Jackson, or any first round selection, by trading with the Bills. It will be great for them to have an additional first round pick in 2005, but after 3 years of 5-11 and finally showing some improvement last year, should they have delayed trying to improve their team?

How did Steve Jackson do last night, against C'boy rival Redskins?

25 runs for 125 yds (5.0 yd ave), plus 1 TD - 2 rec for 10 yds.

How 'Bout 'Dem Rams!

texasguy346
08-28-2004, 11:55 AM
Here's a story on the game.

St. Louis 28, Washington 3

By JIM SUHR, Associated Press Writer
August 28, 2004

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- Steven Jackson is quickly showing the St. Louis Rams that he is as good as advertised.

The 6-foot-2, 230-pound rookie out of Oregon State bowled over the Redskins for 125 yards on 25 carries and scored on a 5-yard run to help the Rams to a 28-3 victory Friday night over Washington.

Rams coach Mike Martz said his brawny runner "just keeps getting better and better.''

"When he hits that pile, he's relentless,'' Martz said. "You'd better be prepared to tackle him. He's what everyone at Oregon State said he was.''

Jackson ran for 3,625 yards and 39 touchdowns in three seasons at Oregon State and was the first running back taken in April's draft. He said he simply wanted to make a good impression and perhaps move up the depth chart behind Marshall Faulk, who had 11 yards on four carries.

The bruising back got better as the game went on, rushing for 103 yards in the second half.

"I tend to wear down the defense in the latter part of the game,'' Jackson said. "That's where I get my big runs. That's Steven Jackson of college football and what helped me get to this level.''



http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/recap;_ylc=X3oDMTBpZ2NvMjltBF9TAzk1ODYxMDU5BHNlYwN 0aA--?gid=20040827014&prov=ap

beerlover
08-28-2004, 01:12 PM
Vindication :hehe: oh its only pre-season :crazy: Steven Jackson was in my top 10 draft board, his intelligence & character where completly over looked for him to slip this far. Dallas looks like *****s.

This guy is special, he is a five tool rb that has sure hands, does not fumble, great footwork, speed, power & catches the ball out of the backfield as well as Marshall Faulk with much bigger size.

Huge
08-29-2004, 10:18 AM
2004 Pre-season stats...

Steven Jackson - 54 carries, 251 yards (4.6 avg.), 2 TDs, long of 18

Julius Jones - 22 carries, 113 yards (5.1 avg.), 1 TD, long of 16

A couple of other points...

1. Because Jones was a 2nd round pick, his contract isn't near what Jackson's is. So which team is getting more value from their pick?

2. Dallas also has an extra first round pick in the next draft.

Yeah, Dallas really came out looking stupid in this deal. :rolleyes:

Fiddy
08-29-2004, 11:33 AM
I'll wait till next years draft to see who Dallas gets with the Bills first round pick before I pass a judgement on this deal....

JustBonee
08-29-2004, 02:06 PM
He runs in an upright style a lot like Eric Dickerson. If he turns out to be anything like E.D., the Rams got a gem.

Huge
08-29-2004, 03:56 PM
Julius Jones looks good, but I think Steven Jackson will be the better back overall. Dallas might get a high first round pick out of the deal, b/c Buffalo more than likely will have a bad record, unless of course Buffalo improves on offense. Is Gilbride still in Buffalo??

I think he's (Jackson) a better RB overall as well. But to say Dallas looks stupid in this deal (not implying you're the one that said it) when Jones is performing at the same, if not higher, level as Jackson (while paying him less than what the Rams are paying Jackson) ON TOP of getting an extra first round pick is asinine.

But that's just my thinking.

cuppacoffee
08-29-2004, 10:59 PM
I think he's (Jackson) a better RB overall as well. But to say Dallas looks stupid in this deal (not implying you're the one that said it) when Jones is performing at the same, if not higher, level as Jackson (while paying him less than what the Rams are paying Jackson) ON TOP of getting an extra first round pick is asinine.

But that's just my thinking.

Not too sure Jackson is better overall.
I still think Dallas made out like a bandit getting Julius Jones when they did.
We will have a better idea by the end of the year. :twocents:

And I don't even like the boys, or most of their fans.
(Huge excepted :thumbup )

Ihategeeks
08-30-2004, 02:13 AM
Jackons on paper, wow he's a good back

When you watch him.


Who is this chump?

beerlover
09-01-2004, 04:49 AM
Yeah HUGE good to see you return to the Texans board as in the past we disagree :rolleyes: Your rationalizing that Julius Jones is a better back than Steven Jackson because the Cowboys saved money, picked up a high pick in 2005 from Buffalo & Julius Jones is performing @ a higher level. OK maybe your right, good luck to you & your beloved Cowboys, ride Julius onto the Superbowl, if he has anything left by the time your ready to compete at that level which I'm sorry to inform you isn't anytime soon.

Seriously Julius Jones is a one dimensional back, he does have break away speed but hey so does Tony Hollings. He cant' block worth ****, he fumbles and his hands somehow fail to grasp a football in pass routes. When Dallas had the chance to draft the best all around back Steven Jackson who CAN block, respectable solid avg. yard per carry, rarely fumbles has the best pair of receiving hands coming out of the backfield since Faulk (who is mentoring him) & rock solid family background with straight A's in College. :crazy:

Enough I digress Buffalo looks the worst for the deal, granted. Dallas raked them bad of course who would have known J. P. Losman would get hurt so early on. That draft pick should help the Cowboys NEXT year. Julius looks like a solid prospect but NOT A FRANCHISE RB. The Dallas Cowboys passed on the best who was still available at their pick, because they wanted to save money? How do they save money when the pick from Buffalo may be a high 1st round selection? If Jones is successful won't he demand a big, fat Emmitt Smith re-negoiated contract? Either way Dallas is screwed, meanwhile the RB they passed on succeeds Marshall Fauk in St. Louis, better for Steven anyway he gets to play in a great offense desinged to take advantage of mismatches & atheltic abilties something that does not happen near as often at least since Michael Irvin in Dallas. :cool:

Huge
09-01-2004, 07:22 AM
Yeah HUGE good to see you return to the Texans board as in the past we disagree Your rationalizing that Julius Jones is a better back than Steven Jackson because the Cowboys saved money, picked up a high pick in 2005 from Buffalo & Julius Jones is performing @ a higher level. OK maybe your right, good luck to you & your beloved Cowboys, ride Julius onto the Superbowl, if he has anything left by the time your ready to compete at that level which I'm sorry to inform you isn't anytime soon.

And drafting Steven Jackson instead of Julius Jones would've helped Dallas reach the Super Bowl quicker how?

Seriously Julius Jones is a one dimensional back, he does have break away speed but hey so does Tony Hollings. He cant' block worth ****, he fumbles and his hands somehow fail to grasp a football in pass routes. When Dallas had the chance to draft the best all around back Steven Jackson who CAN block, respectable solid avg. yard per carry, rarely fumbles has the best pair of receiving hands coming out of the backfield since Faulk (who is mentoring him) & rock solid family background with straight A's in College.

2003 NCAA Stats -

Jones - 229 carries, 3 fumbles/2 lost (1 fumble every 76 carries)

If Jackson averaged fewer fumbles than that per carry, I'll concede this point. But 1 fumble every 76 carries is pretty good.

Marshall Faulk came in to the league in '94. That was 10 years ago. Are you sure Jackson has the best hands since then or are you just exaggerating in hopes of making your point look better?

BTW, Jones has almost as many yards receiving (31) with his 3 catches as Jackson does (34) with his 8 catches in the pre-season thus far. With a 4.3 yards per reception average, Jackson would be better off running the ball instead (4.6 avg). But hey, Jackson sure is catching a lot of balls in an offense that will take advantage of his athletic ability. :rolleyes:

Julius Jones went to Notre Dame. Do you understand the significance of just being able to enroll into an academic institution like that? It's certainly more impressive than pulling down straight A's at Oregon State (Tier 3).

Enough I digress Buffalo looks the worst for the deal, granted. Dallas raked them bad of course who would have known J. P. Losman would get hurt so early on. That draft pick should help the Cowboys NEXT year. Julius looks like a solid prospect but NOT A FRANCHISE RB. The Dallas Cowboys passed on the best who was still available at their pick, because they wanted to save money? How do they save money when the pick from Buffalo may be a high 1st round selection? If Jones is successful won't he demand a big, fat Emmitt Smith re-negoiated contract? Either way Dallas is screwed, meanwhile the RB they passed on succeeds Marshall Fauk in St. Louis, better for Steven anyway he gets to play in a great offense desinged to take advantage of mismatches & atheltic abilties something that does not happen near as often at least since Michael Irvin in Dallas.

Had Losman not broken his leg, the Bills would've gotten the better end of the deal?

And if the pick will help NEXT year...how is that bad? Would you rather build a team that can win one Super Bowl then disappear or have a team that will have the opportunity to win many Super Bowls? I'm not saying this is the situation Dallas is in but the concept is the same.

And where did I say Dallas drafted Jones because they wanted to save money? I just said they were getting better value out of him. And if you can dispute this given both RB's production in pre-season thus far and the differences in their contracts, knock yourself out.

Will Jones want a bigger contract if he's successful? Sure. Is Steven Jackson going to ask for the same contract he signed this year if he's successful?

cuppacoffee
09-01-2004, 09:23 AM
:
Julius Jones went to Notre Dame. Do you understand the significance of just being able to enroll into an academic institution like that? It's certainly more impressive than pulling down straight A's at Oregon State (Tier 3).

Ahh, common ground between a girls fan and a Texans fan. :thumbup

Can you tell I'm also an Irish fan? ;)

WWJD
09-01-2004, 10:22 AM
You won't be able to tell for a year or more who got the best of the deal here.

Bill Parcells said he wanted JJ all along. That would seem to be the truth since he traded down to get him and also got a 1st round pick for next year.

As far as Hollings he's done great for a guy in his situation. He hasn't even been a running back that long. Excuse the fumbles and what is his weakness? He runs hard and he gets tough yards.
I don't think he's done badly at all.

Mistril48
09-01-2004, 03:05 PM
Julius Jones went to Notre Dame. Do you understand the significance of just being able to enroll into an academic institution like that?
Can someone refresh my memory. Wasn't 'Dr.' Julius Jones out of Notre Dame for a year with academic problems? Granted, picking up a player who lets his teammates down one year (see Keyshawn) doesn't seem to be a problem with the C'boys ...

WWJD
09-01-2004, 04:58 PM
I think he did miss a year because of academics. But he came back for his senior year I guess and had a good one so I guess he got his grades back to an acceptable level. I'm sure he probably wish it hadn't happened but I don't know that it makes much of a difference as to what kind of running back he is or even what sort of person he is.

Lots of kids have trouble in school. I've never heard him speak about it but I would guess he probably disappointed a lot of people including himself. You live and learn and move on. And he's moving on.

HowBoutThemCowboys!
09-01-2004, 05:30 PM
Parcells will do the same thing he did when be gambled with Curtis Martin and make JJ the a great running back. Besides guys we dont know who's better yet, though JJ has had a great pre season we're not sure if he's better than Jackson. We got to wait and see.

Now do I say that move was stupid? Absolutely not, if JJ performs like he's been doing in the pre season, it was a steal, plus we get a 1st round pick in 05'. I say BP made the right call and I tip my hat to him

beerlover
09-01-2004, 07:16 PM
And drafting Steven Jackson instead of Julius Jones would've helped Dallas reach the Super Bowl quicker how?

Julius or Steven Jackson either one would be used like a workhorse since Parcells has nothing to work with, Jackson simply stated is multi talented & not as one dimensional.



2003 NCAA Stats -

Jones - 229 carries, 3 fumbles/2 lost (1 fumble every 76 carries)

If Jackson averaged fewer fumbles than that per carry, I'll concede this point. But 1 fumble every 76 carries is pretty good.

Marshall Faulk came in to the league in '94. That was 10 years ago. Are you sure Jackson has the best hands since then or are you just exaggerating in hopes of making your point look better?

No reason in particular other than Faulk has been outstanding catching out of the backfield & that he will help mentor Steven Jackson accelerating his learning curve just that much faster.

BTW, Jones has almost as many yards receiving (31) with his 3 catches as Jackson does (34) with his 8 catches in the pre-season thus far. With a 4.3 yards per reception average, Jackson would be better off running the ball instead (4.6 avg). But hey, Jackson sure is catching a lot of balls in an offense that will take advantage of his athletic ability. :rolleyes:

Its just pre-season HUGE, the only numbers that count are during the regular season & post season, these numbers mean nothing.

Julius Jones went to Notre Dame. Do you understand the significance of just being able to enroll into an academic institution like that? It's certainly more impressive than pulling down straight A's at Oregon State (Tier 3).

Here are some of their wonderlick results...

Steven Jackson, Oregon State - 28
Kevin Jones, Virginia Tech - 15
Chris Perry, Michigan - 20
Greg Jones, Florida State - 25
Tatum Bell, Oklahoma State - 18
Julius Jones, Notre Dame - 16
Michael Turner, Northern Illinois - 35
Maurice Clarett, Ohio State - 20


Had Losman not broken his leg, the Bills would've gotten the better end of the deal?

We won't know this year now will we?

And if the pick will help NEXT year...how is that bad? Would you rather build a team that can win one Super Bowl then disappear or have a team that will have the opportunity to win many Super Bowls? I'm not saying this is the situation Dallas is in but the concept is the same.

It should help having a high draft pick as long as the salary can fit under the cap, look at what the Texans gave up to pick Babin, this free'd up enough room to sign Babin quickley and before training camp while the Titans struggled and let quality FA's walk.

And where did I say Dallas drafted Jones because they wanted to save money? I just said they were getting better value out of him. And if you can dispute this given both RB's production in pre-season thus far and the differences in their contracts, knock yourself out.

How is Julius Jones a better value, what did I miss? A late 1st round pick who becomes the franchise seems high in value indeed.

Will Jones want a bigger contract if he's successful? Sure. Is Steven Jackson going to ask for the same contract he signed this year if he's successful?

No hopefully Steven Jackson will become a Texan at that point. :hehe:

Mistril48
09-01-2004, 07:56 PM
I think he did miss a year because of academics. But he came back for his senior year ... I guess he got his grades back to an acceptable level ... Lots of kids have trouble in school.
I agree that lot's of college football players don't take their academic requirements seriously. I would not have mentioned it if HUGE had not suggested that being admitted into Notre Dame (apparently his SAT had just one question - what's your 40 time?) gave him some kind of free pass in a character comparison with Steve Jackson.

I think he did miss a year because of academics ... I'm sure he probably wish it hadn't happened but I don't know that it makes much of a difference as to what kind of running back he is or even what sort of person he is.

... I've never heard him speak about it but I would guess he probably disappointed a lot of people including himself ...
I disagree. I think it is one thing to choose not to try and better yourself in school, perhaps because you feel you're going to the NFL. Its another thing entirely to ignore your academic responsibilities to the extent that you are not available to help the team. It may not happen again, but he still should be viewed as someone who previously let those down who were counting on him.

Mistril48
09-01-2004, 07:58 PM
... though JJ has had a great pre season ...
Any word on when the C'boys are going to turn him out against players who will actually make NFL rosters?

Huge
09-01-2004, 08:08 PM
Can someone refresh my memory. Wasn't 'Dr.' Julius Jones out of Notre Dame for a year with academic problems? Granted, picking up a player who lets his teammates down one year (see Keyshawn) doesn't seem to be a problem with the C'boys ...

The fact he was able to make it back into Notre Dame speaks volumes about his character. Funny how that's overlooked in this discussion.

And drafting Steven Jackson instead of Julius Jones would've helped Dallas reach the Super Bowl quicker how?

Julius or Steven Jackson either one would be used like a workhorse since Parcells has nothing to work with, Jackson simply stated is multi talented & not as one dimensional.

Parcells doesn't have Eddie George? The RB who happens to have the highest average of attempts per game of any RB in the league over the past several years? Not to say I expect a lot of production from George (I'd be shocked if he eclipsed the 4.0 mark). But I'd like your opinion as to why you think Jones will be carrying the load. If so, why would that be a bad thing?

2003 NCAA Stats -

Jones - 229 carries, 3 fumbles/2 lost (1 fumble every 76 carries)

If Jackson averaged fewer fumbles than that per carry, I'll concede this point. But 1 fumble every 76 carries is pretty good.

Marshall Faulk came in to the league in '94. That was 10 years ago. Are you sure Jackson has the best hands since then or are you just exaggerating in hopes of making your point look better?

No reason in particular other than Faulk has been outstanding catching out of the backfield & that he will help mentor Steven Jackson accelerating his learning curve just that much faster.

So if the San Francisco Giants draft a new LF, should Barry Bonds be able to teach him to hit HRs in the same fashion? This is basically what you're saying. Faulk is great at catching the ball (be it out of the backfield or lined up as a WR) so he'll be able to pass this on to Jackson. As far as having a mentor, refer to the fore mentioned George.

Any luck coming up with Jackson's fumbles this past year or were you going to dodge that topic since Jones' were brought up?

BTW, Jones has almost as many yards receiving (31) with his 3 catches as Jackson does (34) with his 8 catches in the pre-season thus far. With a 4.3 yards per reception average, Jackson would be better off running the ball instead (4.6 avg). But hey, Jackson sure is catching a lot of balls in an offense that will take advantage of his athletic ability.

Its just pre-season HUGE, the only numbers that count are during the regular season & post season, these numbers mean nothing.

Agreed. So what are you basing Jackson's superiority on? What he did in college?

Julius Jones went to Notre Dame. Do you understand the significance of just being able to enroll into an academic institution like that? It's certainly more impressive than pulling down straight A's at Oregon State (Tier 3).

Here are some of their wonderlick results...

Steven Jackson, Oregon State - 28
Kevin Jones, Virginia Tech - 15
Chris Perry, Michigan - 20
Greg Jones, Florida State - 25
Tatum Bell, Oklahoma State - 18
Julius Jones, Notre Dame - 16
Michael Turner, Northern Illinois - 35
Maurice Clarett, Ohio State - 20

You just used the Wonderlick test as a measuring device for academic standards. I'd explain how dumb this look but I don't think you'd get it.

Need a better example? Quincy Carter scored a 30 on his test. Guess after football he'll be finding a cure for cancer.

And if the pick will help NEXT year...how is that bad? Would you rather build a team that can win one Super Bowl then disappear or have a team that will have the opportunity to win many Super Bowls? I'm not saying this is the situation Dallas is in but the concept is the same.

It should help having a high draft pick as long as the salary can fit under the cap, look at what the Texans gave up to pick Babin, this free'd up enough room to sign Babin quickley and before training camp while the Titans struggled and let quality FA's walk.

Who says they have to use both first round picks on players? I'm actually hoping they trade one of them and try to pick up two more 1st rounders (a late first in '05 and another in '06).

Fitting them under the salary cap will not be a problem. Teams (especially Dallas after all the trouble they had) are much better at managing the cap now than they were 10 years ago.

And where did I say Dallas drafted Jones because they wanted to save money? I just said they were getting better value out of him. And if you can dispute this given both RB's production in pre-season thus far and the differences in their contracts, knock yourself out.

How is Julius Jones a better value, what did I miss? A late 1st round pick who becomes the franchise seems high in value indeed.

As of now, neither have proven to be of any value.

A late 1st rounder that becomes your franchise RB is a great value. But a mid-2nd rounder that also fetched you an additional 1st round pick and plays with a lesser contract that becomes you franchise RB is a better value.

And spare me the "Jackson is a franchise RB...Jones is not" because you've got nothing to base it on other than Jackson's first round draft status. If this is your logic, you must not have high hopes for Domanick Davis.

Will Jones want a bigger contract if he's successful? Sure. Is Steven Jackson going to ask for the same contract he signed this year if he's successful?


No hopefully Steven Jackson will become a Texan at that point.

Again, you must not hold a high opinion of Davis.

Huge
09-01-2004, 08:18 PM
These two posts came from the same poster...

Any word on when the C'boys are going to turn him out against players who will actually make NFL rosters?

That was Mistril's latest post. This was his first...

How did Steve Jackson do last night, against C'boy rival Redskins?

25 runs for 125 yds (5.0 yd ave), plus 1 TD - 2 rec for 10 yds.

How 'Bout 'Dem Rams!

Interesting to note: Of Jackson's 125 yards, 103 came IN THE SECOND HALF. Guess he was playing against the 1st teamers all game though, eh?

:rofl:

Mistril48
09-01-2004, 08:31 PM
I'll wait till next years draft to see who Dallas gets with the Bills first round pick before I pass a judgement on this deal....
I don't believe I agree with your approach. I believe the deal has to stand on its own merits when made as well, not just later after uncertain, interwening events.

When the Texans drafted Tony Hollings, I believe they declined to use their own 2nd round pick in the supplimental draft (which as I understand how the suppplimental picks are assigned, must have been in the first bundle of picks). Later in the round, they used the Raiders' 2nd round pick that they had previously acquired (presumably, because the Raiders supplimental pick was in the last bundle). After the draft, the Texans signed Hollings to a contract comparable to those signed by late 2nd round picks.

Subsequent event - the Raiders go in the tank and the 2nd round pick the Texans used ended up the 33rd.

I believe that Casserly's work should be evaluated based on the fact that he felt Hollings was worth investing the second of two 2nd round picks, that other teams were poised to use third round picks and that he could be signed like a late second round pick. In addition, while it only cost a 2004 pick, Hollings had a year of learning in 2003.

I believe it was an excellent move by Casserly. The fact that uncontrollable, subsequent events moved the pick up is irrelevant.

Evaluating the C'boy move now. They traded a chance to have the first choice of running backs for a future #1 pick. It will inevitably help the future team, but will also slow current development by definition (for example, they could have made the same trade only taken a player instead of a pick, which would have helped the current team).

One also has to question their commitment to Professor Jones. Of course, we will hear now that he was their choice, but it still comes down to the fact that they weren't prepared to use their first pick on him, and indeed they were prepared to risk drafting after the Broncos (generally accepted as a franchise that understands the running game) had selected who they felt was the most appropriate prospect.

I evaluate the Bill/C'boy trade now like this. I love it for both teams.

Buffalo gets to work all through 2004 (the injury was an unfortunate, subsequent event that will affect the physical side of this benefit) with a QB and use next years pick. If they waited until next year to draft a QB, they lose that year of development. They also improved this years' team with 1st round WR. The C'boys will benefit from a future 1st round pick to improve the future team, but I'm surprised the fans are calm with this approach after having endured 3 years of 5-11 and then a questionable playoff appearance with a QB whose now gone.

Mistril48
09-01-2004, 08:50 PM
These two posts came from the same poster ... That was Mistril's latest post. This was his first ...
Thank you for taking the time to look up when Jackson got his yards. I had not. I think that is a relevant rebutal to my first observation. We should consider this when reflecting on how well Jackson is doing.

I would have preferred you addressed the issue of who Professor Jones faced when he had his 'great pre season' (quote - HowBoutThemCowboys!) rather than trying to make me part of the argument.

Is this appropriate?

WWJD
09-01-2004, 09:23 PM
I agree that lot's of college football players don't take their academic requirements seriously. I would not have mentioned it if HUGE had not suggested that being admitted into Notre Dame (apparently his SAT had just one question - what's your 40 time?) gave him some kind of free pass in a character comparison with Steve Jackson.


I disagree. I think it is one thing to choose not to try and better yourself in school, perhaps because you feel you're going to the NFL. Its another thing entirely to ignore your academic responsibilities to the extent that you are not available to help the team. It may not happen again, but he still should be viewed as someone who previously let those down who were counting on him.


I'll stand by what I said. Lots of young athletes don't take their academics seriously enough. I wouldn't know for certain because I've never heard him speak about it but I am guessing that Julius learned his lesson because he came back his senior year and did well. We all make mistakes. He got punished for what he did. And deservedly so. He deserved to miss the year.
I'd love to see one person alive that hasn't done something wrong and let somebody down somewhere.

I have no idea how hard Notre Dame is to get into as a student or even as an athlete. It's certainly a big name school; maybe the biggest name school. I'm sure it's a real honor for those young men who represent the school on the football team.

Mistril48
09-01-2004, 09:51 PM
... I have no idea how hard Notre Dame is to get into as a student or even as an athlete ...
I would venture that it's much harder to get back in after you left as a non-athlete.

As I understand the situation (although I haven't researched it), he was not academically eligible to play football ... so he left. I believe that the academic institution would have preferred that he continued his academic career and then resumed his football career when his grades justified it. Quiting wasn't the right course. I doubt other students could just quit and then get back in.

You are right. He certainly should be given another chance and he may well have learned a valuable lesson. That's what school is supposed to be about.

HowBoutThemCowboys!
09-01-2004, 11:11 PM
Thank you for taking the time to look up when Jackson got his yards. I had not. I think that is a relevant rebutal to my first observation. We should consider this when reflecting on how well Jackson is doing.

I would have preferred you addressed the issue of who Professor Jones faced when he had his 'great pre season' (quote - HowBoutThemCowboys!) rather than trying to make me part of the argument.

Is this appropriate?

Thanks for that beautiful qoute. When did I say that Jeff?

Huge
09-02-2004, 12:12 AM
Thank you for taking the time to look up when Jackson got his yards. I had not. I think that is a relevant rebutal to my first observation. We should consider this when reflecting on how well Jackson is doing.

I would have preferred you addressed the issue of who Professor Jones faced when he had his 'great pre season' (quote - HowBoutThemCowboys!) rather than trying to make me part of the argument.

Is this appropriate?

They weren't hard to find...they're posted right after your first post in the article texasguy346 pasted.

If you don't want to be a part of the "argument"...don't post. If you don't want somebody to point out the egg on your face...don't contradict yourself when trying to make somebody else look bad.

As I understand the situation (although I haven't researched it), he was not academically eligible to play football ... so he left. I believe that the academic institution would have preferred that he continued his academic career and then resumed his football career when his grades justified it. Quiting wasn't the right course. I doubt other students could just quit and then get back in.

Er...no. He didn't quit. He was dismissed from school as well as the football team. In order to be readmitted, he had to take care of classwork at another school.

Schools like Notre Dame don't make exceptions. This is why we've got village *****s like Paul Hornung on the radio saying Notre Dame needs to lower their standards in order to "get the black athlete".

'Course, when mentioning the "character" comparison of the two and the differences in their academic achievements, it's funny how the fact Jackson is the one that left school early while Jones worked to get back into school. But I can see why nobody here would want this mentioned.

beerlover
09-02-2004, 04:26 AM
'Course, when mentioning the "character" comparison of the two and the differences in their academic achievements, it's funny how the fact Jackson is the one that left school early while Jones worked to get back into school. But I can see why nobody here would want this mentioned.

:crazy: maybe Jones was at least smart enough to know he would not be drafted.


Just for the record Jackson has promised his mom that he will finish school, however I guess you need to be reminded that the NFL career life span for RB's is very short, who can blame him for making 7 million over the next 5 years with (as stated earlier) re-structuring based upon performance. Looks like a win win situation to me.

I'll tell you what you just keep following the Cowboys (like you do) and report back with Julius Jones acomplishments and I'll give you the :thumbup I shall follow the Rams and keep a thread posting Jacksons then we can objectively compare notes. We'll see who is the top NFL RB, personally I think that Greg Jones is better than Julius Jones & he can play fullback :hehe:

Huge
09-02-2004, 07:07 AM
maybe Jones was at least smart enough to know he would not be drafted.


Just for the record Jackson has promised his mom that he will finish school, however I guess you need to be reminded that the NFL career life span for RB's is very short, who can blame him for making 7 million over the next 5 years with (as stated earlier) re-structuring based upon performance. Looks like a win win situation to me.

Maybe he was smart enough to realize going back to school was his best option. Maybe the fact that he didn't attempt to come out early is more relevent when discussing "academic character"...which is what got us to this point in the discussion. But that's a nice diversion tactic about Jackson's "promise". And I don't doubt he made it.

I've watched Steven Jackson since high school in Vegas. As stated above, I too feel he's a better all around RB and I'm pulling hard for him. I simply pointed out that it's a dumb statement to say Dallas looks like dummies for passing him up because of how productive Jones has been thus far and because of the extra 1st we'll get this year. Again, if you can explain your reasoning for this comment, I'd love to hear it.

I'll tell you what you just keep following the Cowboys (like you do) and report back with Julius Jones acomplishments and I'll give you the I shall follow the Rams and keep a thread posting Jacksons then we can objectively compare notes. We'll see who is the top NFL RB, personally I think that Greg Jones is better than Julius Jones & he can play fullback

I'm sure you do feel Greg is better than Julius. 'Course, you also felt Julius had a fumbling problem 'till I blew that theory out of the water. BTW, what led you to this idea that J. Jones fumbles in the first place?

So far I haven't seen anything but a bunch of feces thrown against the wall in hopes that something would stick. Y'all have got to do a better job than this.

TheOgre
09-02-2004, 09:15 AM
Yeah, Dallas really came out looking stupid in this deal. :rolleyes:

That has yet to be determined. Lets wait to see how Jackson, Jones, and the Cowboy's extra 1st turn out before patting the 'Boys or the Rams on the back.

Mistril48
09-02-2004, 11:44 AM
Thanks for that beautiful qoute. When did I say that Jeff?
Post #18

Who is Jeff?

Mistril48
09-02-2004, 12:37 PM
If you don't want to be a part of the "argument"... don't post ...
What I post should be subject to scrutiny, not me. You were right to clarify that only 22 of Jackson's yards (approximatley 17%) came in the first half, assumedly against first teamers.

We know JJ had 0 carries against first teamers when he played against the Texans. We are still waiting to hear how many yrds Prof. Jones has against first teamers.

If you don't want somebody to point out the egg on your face ... don't contradict yourself ...
People (lawyers, for example) often have to put forth arguments on behalf of various points of view. For example, one day, representing an insurance company and the next day opposing it. It goes without saying that a lawyer would look pretty foolish if he stood up and said "your Honor, we don't have to listen to this arguement. Why just the other day my opponent was opposing the husband in a divorce case and here he is today representing a husband." I'm sure the lawyer doesn't feel he is contradicting himself in such cases anymore than I feel I have egg on my face.

In my initial post I pointed out that Jackson had 125 yrds in his last game. I did not hold myself out as an expert on him. Later, after another poster suggested that Jones has had a 'great preseason' and having observed that he didn't play against first teamers, I raised the issue of how many of his yrds were against first teamers. I see no contradiction.

I may well have said that Kendrick Starling has had a nice camp and that it looks like he's forcing his way onto the team. He may have not played against a first teamer, I really have not idea. I see no contradiction in raising the issue of another player playing against first teamers in response to someone else's post.

I'm still curious to hear how many yrds JJ has against first teamers, if you have that information. I don't follow the C'boys as closely you do. It felt like BP was managing DH and JJ very carefully when they played against the Texans and I'm curious if he's continuing to do so.

aj.
09-02-2004, 12:46 PM
People ... often have to put forth arguments on behalf of various points of view. Often, that's the only way to have any fun around here. Otherwise it would be just like the titans board -- all daisies and perfume -- we're the best -- floyd's a genius -- rah rah sis boom bah....

I have no clue what this thread is about but what Mistril posted caught my attention. I have argued positions for and against almost every Texans player over the last few years. Makes for good debate and less blind homerism.

OK, back to your thread.

Mistril48
09-02-2004, 12:52 PM
Schools like Notre Dame don't make exceptions. This is why we've got village *****s like Paul Hornung on the radio saying Notre Dame needs to lower their standards in order to "get the black athlete".
Please state your authority for this statement about not making exceptions.

I seriously doubt that Notre Dame holds it's athletes (football players) to the same standards as other entrants. Normally, I believe, schools with higher academic standards hold their student athletes to higher standards than the NCAA, but lower standards than the student population as a whole. They do this in the belief that there is no point in admitting athletes who merely meet the minimum NCAA standards, because they won't pass the courses anyway and will ultimately leave the school (see: Prof. Jones). I believe that Paul Hornung's comments were aimed at lowering the already lowered athletic standard to something closer to the minumum NCAA requirement.

beerlover
09-02-2004, 01:54 PM
Maybe he was smart enough to realize going back to school was his best option. Maybe the fact that he didn't attempt to come out early is more relevent when discussing "academic character"...which is what got us to this point in the discussion. But that's a nice diversion tactic about Jackson's "promise". And I don't doubt he made it.

I've watched Steven Jackson since high school in Vegas. As stated above, I too feel he's a better all around RB and I'm pulling hard for him. I simply pointed out that it's a dumb statement to say Dallas looks like dummies for passing him up because of how productive Jones has been thus far and because of the extra 1st we'll get this year. Again, if you can explain your reasoning for this comment, I'd love to hear it.

I'm HUGELY impressed that you've followed Steven Jackson since High School in Vegas so I don't feel the need to expound on his abilites as a franchise NFL RB because you undoubtly share the same view. That being said and I could very well be wrong if Julius Jones is the future feature back for the Cowboys I just don't share that view. If I where the GM of the Cowboys I would have filled the #1 need (RB at draft time) with the best available player in the draft still there @ this position. One has to wonder now with the QB vacancy if Dallas not Buffalo takes J.P. Losman @ pick @ 22? Maybe that 1st pick they aquired from Buffalo will be used on a QB next year, although I'm not sure that class is as deep as this past was.



I'm sure you do feel Greg is better than Julius. 'Course, you also felt Julius had a fumbling problem 'till I blew that theory out of the water. BTW, what led you to this idea that J. Jones fumbles in the first place?

you can look it up for yourself in the INSIDERS NFL DRAFT GUIDE I'm not making this stuff up to prove any point to anyone. I'll admit I haven't followed Notre Dame football since Theisman played there but thats besides the point. Julius Jones moved up the draft board after his career with Notre Dame finished posting strong performances @ the Senior Bowl & Combine. I might add that he moved according to the same source toward the top 45 picks, this seems pretty accurate since the Cowboys picked him @ # 43.

So far I haven't seen anything but a bunch of feces thrown against the wall in hopes that something would stick. Y'all have got to do a better job than this.

In the final anaylsis we both agree who is the better back. We disagree in that you feel Dallas was justfied by addition of a 1st round pick, I stand by my feeling that was a dumb mistake to pass on Steven Jackson who should not have even been still available to the Cowboys to begin with little lone pass up the opportunity to rebuild their draft pick structure in spite of it. Now how do you like them feces :wacko:

WWJD
09-02-2004, 02:03 PM
There are so many variables in this discussion that it really won't be decided until after the year and draft and maybe into next year.

If JJ goes on to run for 1,400 yards and wins game for the Cowboys and they pick up a high draft choice that can step right in and play well well then it was a good deal for the Cowboys.

If JJ gets hurt and Jackson runs for miles well then it's not.

If the Bills win the SB and the Cowboys get little from that draft and JJ is hurt than it was not a good deal for them.

It was above everything a risk as all trades are because you NEVER know what's going to happen from week to week in the NFL.

And that's the beauty of the game. Fans can never get ahead of the game and it always keeps up guessing and discussing.

infantrycak
09-02-2004, 03:08 PM
I seriously doubt that Notre Dame holds it's athletes (football players) to the same standards as other entrants. Normally, I believe, schools with higher academic standards hold their student athletes to higher standards than the NCAA, but lower standards than the student population as a whole. They do this in the belief that there is no point in admitting athletes who merely meet the minimum NCAA standards, because they won't pass the courses anyway and will ultimately leave the school (see: Prof. Jones). I believe that Paul Hornung's comments were aimed at lowering the already lowered athletic standard to something closer to the minumum NCAA requirement.

Mistral has this one right at least in my experience. While I was at UC Berkeley, a school with far less pressure to succeed in football than Notre Dame, it was clear that standards were lower to get in as an athlete at least for basketball and football. Plus there was a whole support structure to help them succeed with a separate building and school paid for tutors to try to keep them academically eligible.

Huge
09-02-2004, 04:03 PM
That has yet to be determined. Lets wait to see how Jackson, Jones, and the Cowboy's extra 1st turn out before patting the 'Boys or the Rams on the back.

Agreed, Ogre.


What I post should be subject to scrutiny, not me. You were right to clarify that only 22 of Jackson's yards (approximatley 17%) came in the first half, assumedly against first teamers.

We know JJ had 0 carries against first teamers when he played against the Texans. We are still waiting to hear how many yrds Prof. Jones has against first teamers.

What I (we) know for sure is that he played against the Texans' 2nd/3rd teamers. I know he played a little in the 2nd qtr against the Raiders. What his success was and whether or not the Raiders had pulled their starters is not known. He played some against the Titans 1st teamers. I think he had 2 carries (Dallas as a team only had 10 rush attempts in the first half that game) for 4 yards. His success in the 2nd half was against/with the 2nd teamers.


People (lawyers, for example) often have to put forth arguments on behalf of various points of view. For example, one day, representing an insurance company and the next day opposing it. It goes without saying that a lawyer would look pretty foolish if he stood up and said "your Honor, we don't have to listen to this arguement. Why just the other day my opponent was opposing the husband in a divorce case and here he is today representing a husband." I'm sure the lawyer doesn't feel he is contradicting himself in such cases anymore than I feel I have egg on my face.

Before a lawyer goes to court, does he prepare his case by doing research on what he's defending? Did you do your research on who Jackson got his yards against? This was my point.


Often, that's the only way to have any fun around here. Otherwise it would be just like the titans board -- all daisies and perfume -- we're the best -- floyd's a genius -- rah rah sis boom bah....

I have no clue what this thread is about but what Mistril posted caught my attention. I have argued positions for and against almost every Texans player over the last few years. Makes for good debate and less blind homerism.

OK, back to your thread.

:thumbup

Please state your authority for this statement about not making exceptions.

Jones is my authority. He didn't make the grades, he was dismissed from school. Can you provide an example proving otherwise?


I seriously doubt that Notre Dame holds it's athletes (football players) to the same standards as other entrants. Normally, I believe, schools with higher academic standards hold their student athletes to higher standards than the NCAA, but lower standards than the student population as a whole. They do this in the belief that there is no point in admitting athletes who merely meet the minimum NCAA standards, because they won't pass the courses anyway and will ultimately leave the school (see: Prof. Jones). I believe that Paul Hornung's comments were aimed at lowering the already lowered athletic standard to something closer to the minumum NCAA requirement.

I doubt they do (hold athletes to the same standards) as well. But it's still a much tougher institute to get into. Easier if you're an athlete but still difficult. What's the minimum...790 on the SAT (I'm guessing)? Somehow I'm not buying that ND is going to accept an application anywhere near this ballpark.


I'm HUGELY impressed that you've followed Steven Jackson since High School in Vegas so I don't feel the need to expound on his abilites as a franchise NFL RB because you undoubtly share the same view. That being said and I could very well be wrong if Julius Jones is the future feature back for the Cowboys I just don't share that view. If I where the GM of the Cowboys I would have filled the #1 need (RB at draft time) with the best available player in the draft still there @ this position. One has to wonder now with the QB vacancy if Dallas not Buffalo takes J.P. Losman @ pick @ 22? Maybe that 1st pick they aquired from Buffalo will be used on a QB next year, although I'm not sure that class is as deep as this past was.

Refresh my memory ('cause I honestly don't know)...when did the Texans trade Henson to Dallas, before or after the draft? Using the 22nd overall on Losman would be a collossal mistake...with or without Henson on board. But that's just me...I don't like Losman.


you can look it up for yourself in the INSIDERS NFL DRAFT GUIDE I'm not making this stuff up to prove any point to anyone. I'll admit I haven't followed Notre Dame football since Theisman played there but thats besides the point. Julius Jones moved up the draft board after his career with Notre Dame finished posting strong performances @ the Senior Bowl & Combine. I might add that he moved according to the same source toward the top 45 picks, this seems pretty accurate since the Cowboys picked him @ # 43.

I don't need to read INSIDERS NFL DRAFT GUIDE. I can look up his stats and see that he fumbled once every 76 carries (about once every 4 games). Tell the guys over at the Insider that that's not very often.

Completely off topic, why would you follow ND when Theisman was there? ;)


In the final anaylsis we both agree who is the better back. We disagree in that you feel Dallas was justfied by addition of a 1st round pick, I stand by my feeling that was a dumb mistake to pass on Steven Jackson who should not have even been still available to the Cowboys to begin with little lone pass up the opportunity to rebuild their draft pick structure in spite of it. Now how do you like them feces

Haven't you wondered WHY he was available for the Rams to take at the #24 spot? There's GOT to be a reason why 23 other teams passed on him.

Seriously, this is just an idea that I've come up with...

Jamal Lewis - 5'11"
Priest Holmes - 5'9"
Clinton Portis - 5'11"
Ahman Green - 6'0"
Stephen Davis - 6'0"
Deuce McAllister - 6'1"
Shaun Alexander - 5'11"

Those were the RBs that were voted/played in last year's Pro Bowl. Call me crazy but it seems that it's the shorter RBs that are having the most success these days. Here are some others...

Ladanian Tomlinson - 5'10"
Domanick Davis - 5'9"
Edgerrin James - 6'0"

Am I saying this is why Dallas passed on Jackson? No...but it's one reason why I'm glad they did. I just think the taller RBs (even guys like Eddie George) present TOO big of a target. The smaller/shorter guys can hide behind their OL then hit the hole. With the athleticism of the guys on defense these days, the bigger RBs just can't consistently run over the defenders anymore.

Who was the last really successful RB over 6'2"...Eric Dickerson?

HowBoutThemCowboys!
09-02-2004, 05:22 PM
Post #18

Who is Jeff?

Know I didnt

lol, I just guessed the guy on your avatar was Jeff Gordon. I dont know a think about NASCAR

Anyway to answer your question of when JJ's going to play players that can make a roster, the answer is tonight, though he did run against starters on Monday Night

beerlover
09-02-2004, 07:26 PM
HUGE- Jones vs. Jackson tonight. Total yards for a beer of your choice. Its time for some football, even though I'm on record that pre season is meaningless at least we can agree to disagree tonight, are you game? :cool:

Huge
09-02-2004, 11:19 PM
Sorry, bud...just got back from Dallas (had to pick up a friend at the airport). Apparently J. Jones didn't play tonight. So I'm thinking that would've been a bad bet. ;)

Tell you what though, if/when I'm down for the Jacksonville game, first one's on me.

beerlover
09-03-2004, 12:30 PM
HALLOWEEN eek:

I can agree with that :headbang: Jackson only 12 carries last night, 6.0 yds avg. 72 yds total with no catches. The Cowboys never turned to rookie Julius Jones, because he hurt his ribs Monday night. Though I swear I knew nothing about that when I made the bet, otherwise the way that Cowboy line was blocking I would not have been surprised if I had lost that bet.

LEAGUE LEADERS

1. S. Jackson STL 323
2. R. Dayne NYG 263
3. C. Taylor BAL 216
4. W. Parker PIT 202
5. Q. Griffin DEN 199

Mistril48
09-03-2004, 07:27 PM
Know I didnt ...
I don't understand. Your post, #18 on this board said JJ had a "great preseason." Now you say you didn't say it? What am I missing?

lol, I just guessed the guy on your avatar was Jeff Gordon. I dont know a thing about NASCAR
The avatar is Jimmie Johnson, who drives the #48 car sponsored by Lowe's

HowBoutThemCowboys!
09-03-2004, 07:34 PM
I don't understand. Your post, #18 on this board said JJ had a "great preseason." Now you say you didn't say it? What am I missing?


The avatar is Jimmie Johnson, who drives the #48 car sponsored by Lowe's

Oh miss read, my bad.

Mistril48
09-04-2004, 12:27 PM
Leading rusher of the 2004 Preseason ... Steven Jackson (how 'bout 'dem Rams!) with 323 yards

http://www.nfl.com/stats


"IRVING, Texas - The Cowboys never turned to their future at the position, rookie Julius Jones, because he hurt his ribs Monday night.

"If this was the regular season, there would've been a lot more pressure on him to play," Parcells said. "He's going to have to suck it up when it counts.""

by JAIME ARON, Associated Press

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/sports/football/9568311.htm

At least amateur psychologist Bill Parcells didn't call Jones "she".

This is going to be a fun matchup to watch all season long (Jackson v. Jones), much like people will be interested to see if the Broncos can replace Clinton Portis' rush yards. I think the C'boys did the disciplined thing by trading to get an extra pick, but I believe it probably hurt the current team.

beerlover
10-10-2004, 10:07 PM
I wish the Texans game turned out the same way. Talk about back to back exciting games, is the NFL great or what? The underdog Rams go into Seattle & beat the previously undeafeated Seahawks in overtime. Love the progression that is Steven Jackson, he is primarily the blocking back in passing situations but show'ed his effectivness as a release valve, excellent hands holding onto the ball as defenders tried to rip it away, the aire-apparent to Marshall Falk indeed. Just in case Huge if your still reading the Cowboys will benifit from the trade with a very high draft pick. Looks like a win win situation.

Huge
10-11-2004, 07:17 PM
Yeah, I'm still here.

And with Buffalo still sitting 0-fer...it's looking pretty good. I was expecting a mid-first rounder out of our own pick (anywhere from a 7-9 to 9-7 record) and a top 10 pick from Buffalo.

Now what we do with those picks I'm not sure of. I'm always a fan of trading down but we'll see.

As for the RBs...Jones' season is pretty much done. But from what I've been told so far...there will indeed be a football season in '05. I'd bet the house there'll be one in '06, '07, etc.

In the meantime...Go whoever is playing Buffalo!

cuppacoffee
10-11-2004, 07:35 PM
[QUOTE=Mistril48]I agree that lot's of college football players don't take their academic requirements seriously. I would not have mentioned it if HUGE had not suggested that being admitted into Notre Dame (apparently his SAT had just one question - what's your 40 time? gave him some kind of free pass in a character comparison with Steve Jackson.

No need to remain ignorant about Notre Dame academic/athletic standards.

Admittedly these standards do cause the Irish to lose out on many of the premier athletes.

"Notre Dame Ranked Third In National Collegiate Scouting Association Power Ranking
NCSA's determines rank based on high academic and athletic standards and performance.

Aug. 18, 2004

Notre Dame, Ind. - The National Collegiate Scouting Association (NCSA) has ranked Notre Dame third overall among Division I institutions in its Top 25 Power Ranking for 2004.

The study was conducted by the company for the second year and is used to determine the top college and universities in the country according to the most recent US News and World Report rank and student-athlete graduation rate reports as well as the final year-end United States Sports Academy Directors' Cup all-sports competition sponsored by the National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics (NACDA). The final rankings were based on figures released during the 2002-03 school year.

Notre Dame finished with a total of 58 points. Stanford was first among all Division I institutions with 36 points, followed by Duke with 50. Providence College was fourth (70 points), followed by Santa Clara (99 points), Rice (105 points), Manhattan (107 points), Vanderbilt (117 points), Virginia (118 points) and Xavier-Ohio (121 points). "
Read More (http://und.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/nd-m-footbl-body.html)

I believe that improving his grades and rejoining the team speaks volumes about Julius Jones character.

Just thought you might like to know. :cool: