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Porky
04-25-2006, 04:36 PM
For those of you who keep insisting that the Texans use high picks on offensive lineman, HPF (http://www.houstonprofootball.com/draft/) has an excellent analysis of the last 11 Bronco drafts. As it relates to offensive lineman, this is how it breaks down:

C: 1st: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 1, 5th: 1, 6th: 1, 7th: 1
OG: 1st: 0, 2nd: 1, 3rd: 1, 4th: 0, 5th: 0, 6th: 2, 7th: 1
OT: 1st: 1, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 2, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 1


True to their reputation for building top lines primarily from late-rounders and undrafted free agents, the Broncos only used three first-day picks on offensive linemen: first-round OT George Foster in 2003, second-round OG Lennie Friedman in 1999, and third-round OG Dan Neil in 1997. They also only selected 13 O-linemen total during the 11 drafts, which is not many at all considering that there are five line positions. So Kubiak probably will not try to solve the offensive line problems that have plagued the Texans throughout the franchise’s history with a lineman-heavy draft.


Think about that people. THREE picks in the first 3 rounds in 11 years time. All of you "must draft olineman high" people. Prepare now for disapointment Saturday. :stirpot:

kiwitexansfan
04-25-2006, 05:11 PM
I'm sorry are we the Broncos now, did Kubiak make draft decisions in Denver or does that take into account the BPA at their pick in those drafts.??

Denver does not equal Houston. :brickwall

Double Barrel
04-25-2006, 05:14 PM
Hopefully Sherman can coach the players we've got to be a much better unit next season. I think a lot of it comes down to coaching leadership and implementing schemes that utilize the players' strengths, something the previous regime seemed to be sorely lacking.

Porky
04-25-2006, 05:17 PM
I'm sorry are we the Broncos now, did Kubiak make draft decisions in Denver or does that take into account the BPA at their pick in those drafts.??

Denver does not equal Houston. :brickwall

Well, since he was the OC in Denver those 11 yrs, you would think he would have some pull in who was drafted in the line. Since we will be using the same exact line technique and style, I think you can draw some parellels. It's a matter of finding prospects to fit the system, not neccesarily where they are drafted. It's going to be hilarious on this board come Saturday if no Olineman are taken, which would not shock me.

HJam72
04-25-2006, 05:18 PM
At one time, I was saying we should use high picks on linemen, but I stopped feeling that way when we got Kubiak. It's his show.

Goatcheese
04-25-2006, 05:28 PM
They drafted depth on the second day and molded them into solid players over the course of years. There was also a heafty dose of luck in finding good players. You can't pin the future of your franchise on the chance of an undraft LT becoming Matt Lepsis. For every undrafted guy who becomes AVERAGE there are hundreds or thousands who wash out and end up working at McDonalds. The line needs to get better now. Not in 3 years when Carr is a quad. We need to draft atleast 1 starter this year, and a few players to develope behind Wiegert, McKinney and Flanagan.

The type of players the Broncos needed for their line have also become more valuable. Teams have seen their success and started to use their scheme. It wasn't that long ago that 3-4 teams could get ideal DE/OLB tweeners in the later rounds. Now we have seen Suggs, Merriman and Ware go at 10 and 11. Denver showed that undersized linemen can be effective and it has driven their stock up. Greg Eslinger would have been a late round pick a decade ago, and now he's likely to go in the 3rd or 4th.

Denvers line is also over rated. They are very good at run blocking in the zone scheme, but in pass protection they use Plummers mobility to avoid sacks. Look at the Steelers game in the playoffs. If not for Plummers mobility they gave up 5+ sacks. David Carr has decent speed, but is nowhere nere Plummers agility and escapability. We need a line than can hold up. If you are hoping to find those guys on the second day or in the undraft pool... Lets just say the odds are against success.

kiwitexansfan
04-25-2006, 05:33 PM
At one time, I was saying we should use high picks on linemen, but I stopped feeling that way when we got Kubiak. It's his show.

It is his show, well hopefully, Casserley is still saying it is his show.

We will begin to see from this draft on exactly what our attitude to the draft will be.

RBforRB
04-25-2006, 05:48 PM
I just don't get this arguement completely. Sure the broncos have done well with a 7th rounder in Nalen and an undrafted Lepsis, but isn't left tackle the most critical position for pass protection and doesn't their one 1st round pick play that position? I just don't see how you can say Kubiak won't want to use a high pick for an OL simple because they drafted Foster in the first. If at #33 a quality LT like Winston is available, why wouldn't they look at him as an option? They may not take OL in the 2nd, but it's a possibility.

with a quick look up:
Broncos OL:
Foster - 1st round
Carlisle - 4th
Nalen - 7th
Hamilton - 4th
Lepsis - UD

Texans currently:
Wand - 3rd
Pitts - 2nd
Flanagan - 3rd
McKinney - 4th
Wiegert - 2

Wade was a second, but doesn't look to fit the system.

By comparing draft rounds, we look better or equal in all but LT and LT has been our biggest line problem. If we improve our LT quality, we can spread some of the other talent to other positions. Wiegert is injury prone. I'm not saying OL in the 1st, but 2nd or 3rd likely. Hopefully whoever we select can start off working under Wand at LT and provide depth under Wiegert if he gets hurt. If our draft pick proves a better option at LT than Wand, could Wand play RT? Upgrade?

I don't really care where we get the talent. I just want the line to be solid, but don't see why we should just plan on finding late round gems. In Kubes we trust......

nunusguy
04-25-2006, 06:00 PM
The type of players the Broncos needed for their line have also become more valuable. Teams have seen their success and started to use their scheme. It wasn't that long ago that 3-4 teams could get ideal DE/OLB tweeners in the later rounds. Now we have seen Suggs, Merriman and Ware go at 10 and 11. Denver showed that undersized linemen can be effective and it has driven their stock up.
Good points Goat, very insightful.
But there are only 'bout 3 - 4 teams that use full time Zone Blocking schemes,
which tends to use smaller OL because that scheme places more emplasis on
speed and athleticism than bulk and strength, which the more traditional power schemes ephasize. And while the popularity of the 3-4 D is growing,
can we say with accuracy the same thing about the use of ZBs by offensive lines ?
One thing is for sure though, ZB has nothing to with pass blocking, and that's
why teams will pay big premiums for steller pass blockers, especially LTs.

Scooter
04-25-2006, 06:56 PM
stats are fun.

Denver Broncos, over that same span ...

RB: 1st: 0, 2nd: 2, 3rd: 1, 4th: 2, 5th: 1, 6th: 2, 7th: 4
QB: 1st: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 1, 4th: 1, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 3

the broncos havent used a first rounder on an RB or QB since '92 when they took tommy maddux, and i cant find them using a first on a runningback since steve sewell in '85. neither of which were during kubiak's tenure.

i also have the current champ's listings if you'd prefer to see the contrast in drafting. outside of that, i couldnt have said it any better than goatcheese already has.

utahmark
04-25-2006, 06:57 PM
For those of you who keep insisting that the Texans use high picks on offensive lineman, HPF (http://www.houstonprofootball.com/draft/) has an excellent analysis of the last 11 Bronco drafts. As it relates to offensive lineman, this is how it breaks down:

C: 1st: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 1, 5th: 1, 6th: 1, 7th: 1
OG: 1st: 0, 2nd: 1, 3rd: 1, 4th: 0, 5th: 0, 6th: 2, 7th: 1
OT: 1st: 1, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 2, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 1


True to their reputation for building top lines primarily from late-rounders and undrafted free agents, the Broncos only used three first-day picks on offensive linemen: first-round OT George Foster in 2003, second-round OG Lennie Friedman in 1999, and third-round OG Dan Neil in 1997. They also only selected 13 O-linemen total during the 11 drafts, which is not many at all considering that there are five line positions. So Kubiak probably will not try to solve the offensive line problems that have plagued the Texans throughout the franchise’s history with a lineman-heavy draft.


Think about that people. THREE picks in the first 3 rounds in 11 years time. All of you "must draft olineman high" people. Prepare now for disapointment Saturday. :stirpot:

how many rb's have they drafted in the first round?

Scooter
04-25-2006, 06:59 PM
how many rb's have they drafted in the first round?

:BananaWav

infantrycak
04-25-2006, 11:11 PM
how many rb's have they drafted in the first round?

Well, looking at the same kind of break down hpf did:

1995 Terrell Davis 6th
1996 Detron Smith 3rd
1996 LT Levine 7th
1998 Curtis Alexander 4th
1998 Chris Howard 5th
1999 Olandis Gary 4th
2000 Mike Anderson 6th
2002 Clinton Portis 2nd
2003 Quentin Griffen 4th (wanted DD here)
2003 Ahmad Galloway 7th
2004 Tatum Bell 2nd
2004 Brandon Miree 7th
2005 Maurice Clarett 3rd

Looks like 13 picks (to fill two positions instead of 5) and 4 from the 1st day of the draft.

The Dude Abides
04-25-2006, 11:16 PM
Well, looking at the same kind of break down hpf did:

1995 Terrell Davis 6th
1996 Detron Smith 3rd
1996 LT Levine 7th
1998 Curtis Alexander 4th
1998 Chris Howard 5th
1999 Olandis Gary 4th
2000 Mike Anderson 6th
2002 Clinton Portis 2nd
2003 Quentin Griffen 4th (wanted DD here)
2003 Ahmad Galloway 7th
2004 Tatum Bell 2nd
2004 Brandon Miree 7th
2005 Maurice Clarett 3rd

Looks like 13 picks (to fill two positions instead of 5) and 4 from the 1st day of the draft.

Had some good/great hits, and some pretty bad misses.

Runner
04-26-2006, 08:18 AM
Texans currently:
Wand - 3rd
Pitts - 2nd
Flanagan - 3rd
McKinney - 4th
Wiegert - 2

Wade was a second, but doesn't look to fit the system.

By comparing draft rounds, we look better or equal in all but LT and LT has been our biggest line problem. If we improve our LT quality, we can spread some of the other talent to other positions. Wiegert is injury prone. I'm not saying OL in the 1st, but 2nd or 3rd likely. Hopefully whoever we select can start off working under Wand at LT and provide depth under Wiegert if he gets hurt. If our draft pick proves a better option at LT than Wand, could Wand play RT? Upgrade?


Congratulations on acknowledging the o-line as the coaches have been running it in the weeks they've had the team together. Many posters ignore or write off the report as an "experiment". The experiment must be going well since they haven't tried any other combination yet.

It would be an exceptional 2nd or 3rd rounder who could step in and start on the line and improve it, especially at LT. There is a learning curve that might be painful to watch. We'll see how training camp goes.

RBforRB
04-26-2006, 04:23 PM
I wasn't trying to suggest that I believed whoever we drafted at OL in the 2nd or 3rd would beat the current starters. I agree it would be very unlikely for them to step in and start. I see it as a long term upgrade. This is why I believe they are trying Wand again at LT. To give him a new chance with a new coaching staff to prove himself as well as hold the spot for a drafted OT to learn. The general consensus here is that Pitts is good, but he might be a better fit at G or RT. Would our future look better having Pitts at LT or moving him to a position he might be better and drafting someone with better potential to compete and adjust to the LT position?

I don't believe the staff's "expirement" at OL is a ringing endorsement for Wand at LT, but a belief that Pitts will be a better gaurd and the availabilty of draft picks to fill LT in the future. My question still is, if we draft a LT to learn this year under Wand, in the following year will Wand make a good RT? I know LT is usually more difficult, but not all LT's make good RT's. Could Wand make this transition? I haven't seen anything about him as a possibility at RT and I'm trying to get an outlook on the future of the line.

Wolf
04-26-2006, 06:42 PM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/draft/

Drafting the Bronco Way
by Warren DeLuca
HoustonProFootball.com

The approach Gary Kubiak brings to the job of head coach of the Houston Texans has been shaped dramatically by his experience as offensive coordinator of the Denver Broncos under Mike Shanahan. The Broncos have a clear offensive philosophy, which includes a strong running game, an undersized but highly effective offensive line, and a mobile quarterback, and Kubiak is expected to implement that style in Houston. Do the Broncos also have a distinct approach to the draft, which Kubiak will bring to the Texan war room?

Shanahan ran the Bronco drafts, and Kubiak is expected to have a major say, if not the final one, on the Texans’ selections this weekend. Kubiak was on Shanahan’s staff for 11 drafts, which is long enough that most positions on the Denver depth chart turned over more than once and covers enough choices to make up a decent sample size so that patterns may emerge.

Of course, the Broncos’ draft record is far from an exact gameplan of what the Texans may do this weekend. The extent of Kubiak’s authority is unclear, and even if he is making the call, he may want to adopt a different draft philosophy than the one his mentor employed in Denver. The Broncos never picked as high as the Texans will this year, so what they did in the lower half of a round may not be what they would have done had they been at the top. They also had different rosters with different needs than those that the Texans need to address. Still, taking a look at how the Broncos have worked the draft may give some general indication as to the approach the Texans will take under Kubiak.

Quarterback
Denver’s picks: 1st round: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 1, 4th: 1, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 3
With the exception of third-rounder Brian Griese, the Broncos tended to go with veteran quarterbacks rather than drafting and developing them. They used some Day Two picks on projects (Jeff Lewis, Jarious Jackson, Matt Mauck, and Bradlee Van Pelt). Kubiak could look for an athletic prospect in the late rounds to compete with Dave Ragone.

Wolf
04-26-2006, 07:27 PM
makes me wonder if we will try to get Mcneal out of A&M as a project if he is available late on 2nd day :hmmm:

WiiBrawler
04-26-2006, 07:30 PM
makes me wonder if we will try to get Mcneal out of A&M as a project if he is available late on 2nd day :hmmm:

That would be nice, but then again why did we sign Sage Rosenfiels and Dave Ragone

CoastalTexan
04-26-2006, 07:42 PM
How long is Ragone signed for? Nealy would be nice in the 6th.

thunderkyss
04-26-2006, 07:43 PM
That is one way of looking at it. Or... that they've had the best QB in the league for a good spell. The only one to take that franchise to a superbowl. The only one that has won a superbowl with that franchise........

I wonder....... in the history of that franchise........ if it means anything like that snippet of an article suggests.....how many times have they drafted a running back on the first day??

Wolf
04-26-2006, 07:52 PM
That is one way of looking at it. Or... that they've had the best QB in the league for a good spell. The only one to take that franchise to a superbowl. The only one that has won a superbowl with that franchise........

I wonder....... in the history of that franchise........ if it means anything like that snippet of an article suggests.....how many times have they drafted a running back on the first day??

Running Back
RB: 1st: 0, 2nd: 2, 3rd: 1, 4th: 3, 5th: 1, 6th: 2, 7th: 3
FB: 1st: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 1, 4th: 0, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 0
While the Broncos didn’t use a first-round pick on a running back, they haven’t been shy about taking backs that they liked even when it didn’t appear to be a pressing need, including two in the second and two (including a fullback) in the third. The only year that the team didn’t draft at least one runner was 1997, when they only had three picks. They’ve earned a reputation for being able to find capable running backs outside of the first round, including 1,000-yard rushers Terrell Davis (6th round, 1995), Olandis Gary (4th round, 1999), Mike Anderson (6th round, 2000), and Clinton Portis (2nd round, 2002), which some interpret to mean that they wouldn’t “waste” an early pick on a back. However, their record of going after running backs could also indicate how much importance that they put on the position, so using the top pick on Reggie Bush may not be as out of character as some believe.

Wide Receiver
1st: 2, 2nd: 1, 3rd: 2, 4th: 0, 5th: 4, 6th: 3, 7th: 3
The only drafts in which the Broncos didn’t select a wide receiver were 1997 and 2005, and they took multiple wideouts four times. They drafted two receivers, Marcus Nash (1998) and Ashley Lelie (2002), in the first round. Since the Texans added Eric Moulds and Kevin Walter to a receiver corps that already included Andre Johnson and the speedy (but unproven) Jerome Mathis, the position shouldn’t be a top priority. But based upon the Broncos’ fondness for taking wideouts, it wouldn’t be a huge surprise if the Texans picked one on the second day of the draft.

Tight End
1st: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 0, 5th: 0, 6th: 2, 7th: 1
Surprisingly for a team that had its greatest success with a star at the position, the Broncos only selected three tight ends, and all of those came in the last two rounds of the draft. They had Shannon Sharpe for part of the time, but they didn’t invest any early-round picks trying to find a replacement for him or someone to play with Sharpe in double-tight sets. Even after the Texans signed Jeb Putzier, a Denver sixth-rounder in 2002, they could still use more help at tight end, but if the Texans follow the Bronco plan that help is not going to be a highly-rated prospect, if it comes at all.

Offensive Line
C: 1st: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 1, 5th: 1, 6th: 1, 7th: 1
OG: 1st: 0, 2nd: 1, 3rd: 1, 4th: 0, 5th: 0, 6th: 2, 7th: 1
OT: 1st: 1, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 2, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 1
True to their reputation for building top lines primarily from late-rounders and undrafted free agents, the Broncos only used three first-day picks on offensive linemen: first-round OT George Foster in 2003, second-round OG Lennie Friedman in 1999, and third-round OG Dan Neil in 1997. They also only selected 13 O-linemen total during the 11 drafts, which is not many at all considering that there are five line positions. So Kubiak probably will not try to solve the offensive line problems that have plagued the Texans throughout the franchise’s history with a lineman-heavy draft.

Defensive Line
DT: 1st: 1, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 2, 4th: 1, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 1
DE: 1st: 0, 2nd: 2, 3rd: 1, 4th: 1, 5th: 0, 6th: 1, 7th: 1
The Broncos spent six first-day picks on defensive linemen, including one first rounder (DT Trevor Pryce in 1997). This doesn’t appear to be a major area of emphasis for the Broncos, unlike other teams who will never pass on a quality D-lineman. The Texans could use a top pass rusher, but will not take one in the first round unless they trade down and take Mario Williams.

Linebacker
1st: 3, 2nd: 2, 3rd: 0, 4th: 1, 5th: 2, 6th: 0, 7th: 2
Denver drafted at least one linebacker in seven of the 11 years of the Shanahan era, including three first-rounders (John Mobley (1996), Al Wilson (1999), and D.J. Williams (2004)) and a pair of seconds (Ian Gold (2000) and Terry Pierce (2003)). While some teams, particularly those that run 4-3 schemes, feel that they can find capable linebackers at bargain prices in the later rounds, the Broncos appear to believe that ‘backers are worth investing early picks. The Texans could use a talent upgrade at linebacker so the Day One selection of one is a distinct possibility.

Safety
1st: 0, 2nd: 2, 3rd: 0, 4th: 2, 5th: 0, 6th: 1, 7th: 1
The Broncos drafted a half-dozen safeties, including a couple second-rounders (Eric Brown (1998) and Kenoy Kennedy (2000)). Safety wasn’t a major priority for Denver and it isn’t expected to be for the Texans this year, either.

Cornerback
1st: 2, 2nd: 2, 3rd: 4, 4th: 1, 5th: 2, 6th: 0, 7th: 0
Having spent eight Day One picks on cornerbacks, including first-rounders Deltha O’Neal (2000) and Willie Middlebrooks (2001), the Broncos take the approach that a team cannot have too many quality covermen. With that mindset, and the facts that Demarcus Faggins may not be what the team is looking for in a starter, Phillip Buchanon, even if he lives up to his potential, is in the last year of his contract, the Texans play the Colts twice a year, and new coordinator Richard Smith wants to play more aggressively up front, the likelihood of the Texans using a first-day pick on a corner appears high.

Specialists
P: 1st: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 1, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 1
PK: 1st: 0, 2nd: 0, 3rd: 0, 4th: 0, 5th: 0, 6th: 0, 7th: 1
The Broncos used a fourth rounder and a seventh rounder on punters, and a seventh on a placekicker. They did not draft a long snapper. The Texans could spend a late pick on a punter to challenge Chad Stanley, but they have much greater needs.


link also talks about the trades the bronco's have made and some other stuff

Wolf
04-29-2006, 02:00 PM
well round one goes the bronco's way
no rb

:stirpot: