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HoustonFrog
04-23-2006, 11:42 PM
Just said that if it weren't for Weaver than Mario would be the top pick, no doubt...paraphrase. He could mean, like he said the other day, that he is the top guy on D. Not sure what that tells you except that I still think they are going Bush and are just trying to stay quiet.

Goatcheese
04-24-2006, 01:31 AM
If it were not for Weaver I would want Mario.
If it were not for Davis I would want Reggie Bush.
If it were not for Wand I would want D'brickawall.
If it were....wait... what the fu...Wand? :brickwall

Sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to understand the Texans front office. :confused:

Grid
04-24-2006, 01:53 AM
Drafting for need is a bad idea with the #1 pick. You dont draft for need that high..you draft for talent.

That being said.. there is NOT a large dropoff in talent between Brick and Justice/Winston/McNiel.. so why blow your pick on Brick when we can get one of these other three in the second round?

finally, yah..we have Weaver..but who is gonna play DE on the other side? Yah..we have Davis, but do we have Wells? Who is going to backup Davis when he gets injured (and he always does)? Morency? Morency is not ready to be starting.. he can barely stay on his feet when he starts running.

And btw.. we HAVE talent on the line.. what we didnt have was a competent Oline coach or a competent person calling plays on offense. We fixed that this season and its going to make our line look ALOT better.

Does that spell it out for you? Are ya starting to understand? Or have I not quite broken through the whole "OMG WE NEED LINEMEN OR WE ARE GOING TO IMPLODE!!!" brainwashing?

Goatcheese
04-24-2006, 02:21 AM
Drafting for need is a bad idea with the #1 pick. You dont draft for need that high..you draft for talent.

Every team drafts for need. They won't take a 2nd round guy in the top 10, but the #2/3 talent in the draft is not exactly a reach at #1. If it was strickly best player availble a QB wouldn't go first every year. Players would be picked based on their draft grade. Teams take the best player they can get at a position they need.

That being said.. there is NOT a large dropoff in talent between Brick and Justice/Winston/McNiel.. so why blow your pick on Brick when we can get one of these other three in the second round?

Justice could be gone in the top 10 picks, Winston may never be 100% of what he was, and McNiel is regarded as a RT. Thats a huge drop off.

finally, yah..we have Weaver..but who is gonna play DE on the other side?

Babin, Peek, Kalu, later round draft pick. Lots of options besides Williams. Or are you saying we need to draft for need? :confused:

Yah..we have Davis, but do we have Wells? Who is going to backup Davis when he gets injured (and he always does)? Morency? Morency is not ready to be starting.. he can barely stay on his feet when he starts running.

Davis gets hurt when he is overused. Look at last year. When he got 25+ touches for several weeks in a row he started missing time. As long as they limit him to 15-20 carrys and 3-5 catches per game he should be fine. Why do we need the best running back in the draft to spell him? I was alittle down on Morency during the season, but I've gone back and watched some tape. He looked pretty good towards the end of the season. Not amazing but servicable as a #2/spot starter. Kubiak and the Denver scheme should enable even an average back to excel.

And btw.. we HAVE talent on the line.. what we didnt have was a competent Oline coach or a competent person calling plays on offense. We fixed that this season and its going to make our line look ALOT better.

We have talent at some positions. Pitts is a guard. Wiegert and Flanagan are not getting any younger and have both been injury prone. Do you want to start Wand at LT? Are you willing to stake our whole 2006 season on Winston MAYBY falling to #33? Coaching can help alot, but they can't make the worst line in the NFL into a decent one over night. They need a LT and they need depth.

Does that spell it out for you? Are ya starting to understand? Or have I not quite broken through the whole "OMG WE NEED LINEMEN OR WE ARE GOING TO IMPLODE!!!" brainwashing?

I understand perfectly. I think you may be alittle confused though. :)

Grid
04-24-2006, 04:04 AM
Every team drafts for need. They won't take a 2nd round guy in the top 10, but the #2/3 talent in the draft is not exactly a reach at #1. If it was strickly best player availble a QB wouldn't go first every year. Players would be picked based on their draft grade. Teams take the best player they can get at a position they need.

No, people draft for talent at the top of the draft. The #1 pick is always based on talent, not need. I dont know how else to explain this. I figured everyone knew this.

Justice could be gone in the top 10 picks, Winston may never be 100% of what he was, and McNiel is regarded as a RT. Thats a huge drop off.

Justice will go that high because there are people that need an elite LT and he is next on the list after Dbrick. DBrick has the potential to be great, but so do all of the guys mentioned. As for Winston..plenty of players come into the draft with question marks surrounding an injury.. many turn out just fine in the NFL, especially with an Olineman. We tend to overanalyze things the closer we get to the draft. And McNiel.. well..heck.. all of these guys should be regarded as RTs with the potential to be an LT. Look at Robert Gallery. He was a better prospect than Dbrick.



Babin, Peek, Kalu, later round draft pick. Lots of options besides Williams. Or are you saying we need to draft for need? :confused:

Babin and Peek are both tweeners. They were drafted to be 3-4 OLBs. Babin came from a small school. Niether of these guys are locks at DE. Kalu is depth at best, unless he makes some huge breakthrough this offseason. And I never said you dont draft for need.. I said you dont draft for need at the top of the draft. yes you are very :confused:

Babin and Peek may be able to hold down the fort next season, but it would not be a bad idea for us to draft a REAL defensive end, to be safe.



Davis gets hurt when he is overused. Look at last year. When he got 25+ touches for several weeks in a row he started missing time. As long as they limit him to 15-20 carrys and 3-5 catches per game he should be fine. Why do we need the best running back in the draft to spell him? I was alittle down on Morency during the season, but I've gone back and watched some tape. He looked pretty good towards the end of the season. Not amazing but servicable as a #2/spot starter. Kubiak and the Denver scheme should enable even an average back to excel.

#1. Davis wont get limited to 15-20 carries unless we have a good running back to use with him. The offense that Kubiak is going to run requires that you have a strong running game. Davis cannot do that on his own. Morency looked fine when he was sharing carries with Wells, but Wells was the workhorse. Morency is not ready to become a key part of our offense.

#2. We were running the Denver scheme last season..at least with the running game, so dont expect a big change there. Whether we take Bush or not..we need to think about how we are going to make our running game work when we need to have a dual RB system.. and we only have 2 good RBs on the roster, one of which is prone to injury.


We have talent at some positions. Pitts is a guard. Wiegert and Flanagan are not getting any younger and have both been injury prone. Do you want to start Wand at LT? Are you willing to stake our whole 2006 season on Winston MAYBY falling to #33? Coaching can help alot, but they can't make the worst line in the NFL into a decent one over night. They need a LT and they need depth.

Pitts is a tackle that might do alright at guard. Id prefer to see him at LT or RT, but we will see what happens. And I wouldnt mind seeing Wand actually get snaps at LT or RT.. our last staff did not give him a chance.

If Winston isnt available at #33.. we dont need to throw in the towel :P.. god.. why do people think that our Oline has no talent? Can no one see how much or old staff mucked things up? Yes..coaching can make the worst line in the NFL decent over night.. look at San Diego. Coaching makes ALL the difference.

With Wand, Pitts, Wade, and possibly Wiegert as potential Tackles.. no, we are NOT hurting for a starting LT.. we CAN function without one. However, we do need depth on the line, and traditonally.. depth and projects are taken in the 3rd round and later. Heck, MOST linemen are taken in the 3rd round or later.. starters too.


Our needs as of this moment are CB/FS, MLB, RB, DE, OT and Interior Linemen.. not necessarily in that order. Of those positions..the ONLY ones that NEED to be addressed in the first and second round, are CB/FS and RB. Those are skill positions that need a high draft pick to get an immediate starter. RB is something that we could possibly get in a later round, and just hope that Morency and Davis can do the job without getting injured. Either way though, we need more depth at the position.

If we trade down and take Williams.. then I would expect us to get either another first rounder this year, or a second rounder this year (with other stuff of course).. which would enable us to still address RB and CB/FS in the first two rounds.

If we stay at #1.. then we need to take the most talented player available.. in my mind that means either Reggie Bush, or Mario Williams. Prefferably Reggie Bush.. he is the more "elite talent" of the two. Taking Williams #1 overall would be fine with me, but it would put us in a tough spot when it comes to addressing our other needs. We may be forced to take an RB #2, and then get a project CB/FS in the 3rd. We would have to start Buchannan and Brown in the secondary again.


(BTW.. im stating my opinions here, im not trying to state my opinions as fact, even though it may sound that way.)

Frank_The_Tank
04-24-2006, 04:07 AM
After this latest update on Bush taking gifts during college, perhaps costing him the Hiesman, his team Nation Championships, there is no way he will be wearing a Texans Uniform nest season you guys can kiss that dream good bye.

Goatcheese
04-24-2006, 05:42 AM
No, people draft for talent at the top of the draft. The #1 pick is always based on talent, not need. I dont know how else to explain this. I figured everyone knew this.

So Alex Smith was better than Ronnie Brown(Who Belicheck called the best back in 15 year, and imo is better than Bush)? Teams take the best player available at one of their needs. If the Pats suddenly collapsed and had the #1 pick in 07 because they couldn't protect Brady they would be looking at OT Joe Thomas, not QB Brady Quinn, who will undoubtedly be rated higher.

Justice will go that high because there are people that need an elite LT and he is next on the list after Dbrick. DBrick has the potential to be great, but so do all of the guys mentioned. As for Winston..plenty of players come into the draft with question marks surrounding an injury.. many turn out just fine in the NFL, especially with an Olineman. We tend to overanalyze things the closer we get to the draft. And McNiel.. well..heck.. all of these guys should be regarded as RTs with the potential to be an LT. Look at Robert Gallery. He was a better prospect than Dbrick.

You were saying Justice would be available in the 2nd. Yes Winston has the potential to be great if he recovers, and he probably will. But it's also possible he never regains his lateral movement and continues to be dominated by speed rushers. McNiels stock has been sliding almost as much as Jon Scotts and both are considered to have little chance of being LTs. D'Brick, Justice and Winston are our only chances at an elite tackle prospect. Some people like Colledge, but I don't think he will ever be more than above average, and we would still have to trade up/down into the mid 2nd to get him.

Some tackles can play both ways, like Gallery, some are strickly RTs, Like Wade, and some are Strickly LTs, like D'Brick. They are very different in skill requirements.

Babin and Peek are both tweeners. They were drafted to be 3-4 OLBs. Babin came from a small school. Niether of these guys are locks at DE. Kalu is depth at best, unless he makes some huge breakthrough this offseason. And I never said you dont draft for need.. I said you dont draft for need at the top of the draft. yes you are very confused

Babin and Peek may be able to hold down the fort next season, but it would not be a bad idea for us to draft a REAL defensive end, to be safe.


Babin was very highly rated as a DE by most experts. He played at 280 in college and was strong enough to move inside to DT. I'm optimistic about his return to the D-line. Peek will probably be a situational pass rusher. Kalu was a starter for the Eagles until a rash of injurys, no reason he couldn't start on the worst defense in the league.


#1. Davis wont get limited to 15-20 carries unless we have a good running back to use with him. The offense that Kubiak is going to run requires that you have a strong running game. Davis cannot do that on his own. Morency looked fine when he was sharing carries with Wells, but Wells was the workhorse. Morency is not ready to become a key part of our offense.

#2. We were running the Denver scheme last season..at least with the running game, so dont expect a big change there. Whether we take Bush or not..we need to think about how we are going to make our running game work when we need to have a dual RB system.. and we only have 2 good RBs on the roster, one of which is prone to injury.


If they over use him like capers he will miss 5 games. If they limit his carrys to 15-20 per game he can contribute the whole season with ~300 carrys. Or they can run him into the ground averaging 21 carrys per game and he can get 230 carrys and miss 5 games. I do think we need another running back, but don't think it needs to be the #1 pick in the draft, or even a first day pick. Wells only got 90 carrys, to Morencys 46. A 2/3 split isn't that big. And Morencys YPC was higher than Wells(albiet skewed by his 1 long run).



Pitts is a tackle that might do alright at guard. Id prefer to see him at LT or RT, but we will see what happens. And I wouldnt mind seeing Wand actually get snaps at LT or RT.. our last staff did not give him a chance.

If Winston isnt available at #33.. we dont need to throw in the towel.. god.. why do people think that our Oline has no talent? Can no one see how much or old staff mucked things up? Yes..coaching can make the worst line in the NFL decent over night.. look at San Diego. Coaching makes ALL the difference.

With Wand, Pitts, Wade, and possibly Wiegert as potential Tackles.. no, we are NOT hurting for a starting LT.. we CAN function without one. However, we do need depth on the line, and traditonally.. depth and projects are taken in the 3rd round and later. Heck, MOST linemen are taken in the 3rd round or later.. starters too.

Pitts is supposedly already practicing at guard, and alot of people think he will be very good there. At LT he wasn't outstanding and was even embarrased by the ammount of help he got from the guard and TE. Starting Wand on the hope that the last staff was completely incompetent doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. :eek:

They do have talent, they just lack a starting LT. :) The rest of the line is in good shape for the next year or 2. Lt-Pitts-Flanagan-McKinney-Wiegert. Release Wade (mumble)into a lions den(/mumble) he has been pretty aweful. Yes our old staff was terrible, everyone can see that. But there is only so much a good scheme can do with the available talent. A better coach won't chisel the lead off of Wades shoes or make Wiegert less injury prone. Much like San Diego, we need to add 2 or 3 new starters and fire the slackers.

I don't like anybody on our roster as a starting left tackle, and I think we have to draft D'brick or Winston to fill that hole. Pitts will most likely play guard, Wand has embarrased himself on several occasions by being thrown on his butt, and Wiegert is a RT if anything. We need a LT, the rest of the line needs depth.


Our needs as of this moment are CB/FS, MLB, RB, DE, OT and Interior Linemen.. not necessarily in that order. Of those positions..the ONLY ones that NEED to be addressed in the first and second round, are CB/FS and RB. Those are skill positions that need a high draft pick to get an immediate starter. RB is something that we could possibly get in a later round, and just hope that Morency and Davis can do the job without getting injured. Either way though, we need more depth at the position.

I agree we need starters at FS, Oustide Linebackers(Cowart should be solid at MLB for a season or 2), and LT. We could be in position to upgrade DE, CB #2, RB, OG. We know DD can do the job, and it's been beaten to death that the Denver scheme can make any rb look good. On a related note, we didn't run the same scheme as Denver. It was a bastardized version that didn't utilized the cut block and didn't have the right kind of linemen. The results were un inspiring. DD 4.2ypc, Morency 4.0(3.5), Wells 3.6. A real Alex Gibbs scheme will be a big improvement, especially with quicker linemen. I wish we hadn't released Hollings. Everyone liked to bash him, but in limited action he looked pretty good(when he managed to hold onto the ball). We do need more depth at the position as insurance, but I don't see a problem with the talent level.

If we trade down and take Williams.. then I would expect us to get either another first rounder this year, or a second rounder this year (with other stuff of course).. which would enable us to still address RB and CB/FS in the first two rounds.

If we stay at #1.. then we need to take the most talented player available.. in my mind that means either Reggie Bush, or Mario Williams. Prefferably Reggie Bush.. he is the more "elite talent" of the two. Taking Williams #1 overall would be fine with me, but it would put us in a tough spot when it comes to addressing our other needs. We may be forced to take an RB #2, and then get a project CB/FS in the 3rd. We would have to start Buchannan and Brown in the secondary again.

I'm in favor of a trade down targeting Hawk or D'Brick personally. Other than Cowart our linebackers look realy bad. With the extra ammo we get in a trade down we could trade up to insure the (well apparently only imo) all important LT. I would like to get J.Joseph in the second, andK.Simpson if he slips to the third. Love those SC DBs. :)

Taking Bush and Williams does put us in a tight spot, and it's why I favor a trade. We can fill our glaring needs or watch them get abused all season. Seems like an easy choice to me.


(BTW.. im stating my opinions here, im not trying to state my opinions as fact, even though it may sound that way.)

I'm just suffering from insomnia and looking to argue. I'm actually more or less resigned to the Bush pick. :yahoo:

Runner
04-24-2006, 07:31 AM
If it were not for Weaver I would want Mario.
If it were not for Davis I would want Reggie Bush.
If it were not for Wand I would want D'brickawall.


I didn't see the show - are these quotes? If so, what was the context? I'd think these bold quotes were tempered by something or were just more pre-draft obfuscation.

Goatcheese
04-24-2006, 07:36 AM
Just me wishing they would trade down.

Just said that if it weren't for Weaver than Mario would be the top pick, no doubt...paraphrase.

I was just rambling based on this.

threetoedpete
04-24-2006, 08:00 AM
Just me wishing they would trade down.



I was just rambling based on this.

Great ramble. I think you hit 'em all. Every body's in their on little camps. Hunkered down in thier bunkers. Gonna be fun Saturday. I'm fool enough to believe there have been no offers for the Bush pick. Doesn't surprise me. 201 is still 201.

HJam72
04-24-2006, 08:34 AM
I'm not really in a camp. I've always wanted to Trade Down, but it has to be a descent deal. I want Bush, but I still have some doubts and I THINK I'd be OK with Williams. I know 2 things for sure: Ferguson and Hawk are not worth a #1 overall and I don't want Vince Young (or Leinart) at all because we're stuck with Carr for better or worse.

thunderkyss
04-24-2006, 08:40 AM
No, people draft for talent at the top of the draft. The #1 pick is always based on talent, not need. I dont know how else to explain this. I figured everyone knew this. So Alex Smith is more talented than Ronnie Brown.... Ronnie Brown is as good as, if not better than Reggie....... But Vince is more talented than Alex Smith.........


hmm..

Coach C.
04-24-2006, 08:56 AM
thunderkyss yes VY is more talented than Alex Smith and had it not been for whatever the RBs name is Ronnie Brown could have been the number 1 pick. I thought they should have went after a veteran or player that is on the cusp like Volek, Boiman, or Garrard. Alex Smith was not an overly solid pick and he would be a second rounder this year or the VIkings would take him late in the first.

Casserly was saying what he has been saying Bush is pretty much the guy, but Mario as a player and prospect is rated slightly higher. Why, well just watch his tape. He also said that if they had not signed Weaver to such a large deal then Mario would be the pick no discussions or Bush talk about it. Most teams do not want to take a RB that there is a question about 20+ carry games. Reggie did have two this year, but still there is a question. It will be a somewhat sad day when Cass heads on to NYC.

SteelBlueToro
04-24-2006, 09:21 AM
After this latest update on Bush taking gifts during college, perhaps costing him the Hiesman, his team Nation Championships, there is no way he will be wearing a Texans Uniform nest season you guys can kiss that dream good bye.
:wacko:

Did you READ the article? If any season is affected - it will be the 2005 season. They didn't win the National Championship that season...

Glad to see you support the notion "innocent until proven guilty..."

bad
04-24-2006, 09:28 AM
After this latest update on Bush taking gifts during college, perhaps costing him the Hiesman, his team Nation Championships, there is no way he will be wearing a Texans Uniform nest season you guys can kiss that dream good bye. One of the problems inherent in predicting the future is the fact that the future is unpredictable.

You might be better served by holding off on the gloating until after the draft.

Texans_Chick
04-24-2006, 10:09 AM
Babin was very highly rated as a DE by most experts. He played at 280 in college and was strong enough to move inside to DT. I'm optimistic about his return to the D-line. Peek will probably be a situational pass rusher. Kalu was a starter for the Eagles until a rash of injurys, no reason he couldn't start on the worst defense in the league.



If you talk to players on the defense, they think that Babin is going to have a good year. Assuming that he doesn't get injured, they think that this new scheme and position suit him much better.

And that in general, this year more players will be playing in positions/roles that suit them better.

Oh, and they think that this defense is more fun. There is something to say for that. Fun doesn't necessarily translates into mo better, but it is a start.

thunderkyss
04-24-2006, 10:22 AM
thunderkyss yes VY is more talented than Alex Smith and had it not been for whatever the RBs name is Ronnie Brown could have been the number 1 pick. I thought they should have went after a veteran or player that is on the cusp like Volek, Boiman, or Garrard. Alex Smith was not an overly solid pick and he would be a second rounder this year or the VIkings would take him late in the first.

Casserly was saying what he has been saying Bush is pretty much the guy, but Mario as a player and prospect is rated slightly higher. Why, well just watch his tape. He also said that if they had not signed Weaver to such a large deal then Mario would be the pick no discussions or Bush talk about it. Most teams do not want to take a RB that there is a question about 20+ carry games. Reggie did have two this year, but still there is a question. It will be a somewhat sad day when Cass heads on to NYC.

I understand what Cass is saying...... my response was to Grid, on drafting for talent with the 1st overall. SF drafted on need more than anything, and I think that is why they were stuck with the #1..... if they would have gone into the draft saying they were taking Ronnie, they might have had more trade offers, and more than likely ended up with Alex, if that was the guy they wanted(all speculation of course).

But San Fran didn't want to spend #1 money on a RB who shared the load of Auburns running attack(by the way, I think Auburn should have played USC for the national Championship). Funny though, how both those guys went 2 & 3, and have had great rookie years.

Hervoyel
04-24-2006, 10:33 AM
Oh, and they think that this defense is more fun. There is something to say for that. Fun doesn't necessarily translates into mo better, but it is a start.

It's huge actually. The players believe that it's possible to succeed in this defense which is something that was apparently missing the last couple of seasons. I think we absolutely saw Marcus Coleman quit on this team last year and I think we saw Patrick Buchanon never buy into what he was being asked to do. Gary Walker was consistently disgruntled the past year or two. By the time Vic Fangio was cleaning out his desk I think pretty much everyone on that side of the ball hated the defense we were running.

Runner
04-24-2006, 10:59 AM
... The players believe that it's possible to succeed in this defense which is something that was apparently missing the last couple of seasons...

Yep. That's what makes it fun.

MorKnolle
04-24-2006, 10:38 PM
Every team drafts for need. They won't take a 2nd round guy in the top 10, but the #2/3 talent in the draft is not exactly a reach at #1. If it was strickly best player availble a QB wouldn't go first every year. Players would be picked based on their draft grade. Teams take the best player they can get at a position they need.

DE is more of a need than RB, so you are taking one step in the direction of saying Mario is the better pick.

Justice could be gone in the top 10 picks, Winston may never be 100% of what he was, and McNiel is regarded as a RT. Thats a huge drop off.

There is not that big of a drop off between Ferguson and the next 2-3 OTs, plus Denver's system has shown that you don't need to get the conventional top OLinemen in the draft to enjoy great success with their blocking scheme and offense. Ferguson fits zone blocking well, but so do several other OLinemen in this draft that won't require us to use a top 5 pick on them.

Babin, Peek, Kalu, later round draft pick. Lots of options besides Williams. Or are you saying we need to draft for need? :confused:

Babin, Peek, and Kalu are weakside DEs. Anthony Weaver is a strongside DE that provides no pass rushing threat. Mario Williams can play either DE position and either DT position as well. He can play weakside with Weaver at strongside and provide big-time run stoppers on both sides of the DLine while improving the pass rush over having Peek/Babin in there at weakside. Mario can play strongside DE and leave Peek in there at weakside to provide just as good of a run stopper on strongside as a Weaver/Peek combo would have and it greatly increases the pass rush and draws blocking attention away from Peek to allow him to get in more easily. Mario is arguably the best player in this draft on his own, and he creates so many opportunities and different looks for our defense with his multi-faceted talents.

Davis gets hurt when he is overused. Look at last year. When he got 25+ touches for several weeks in a row he started missing time. As long as they limit him to 15-20 carrys and 3-5 catches per game he should be fine. Why do we need the best running back in the draft to spell him? I was alittle down on Morency during the season, but I've gone back and watched some tape. He looked pretty good towards the end of the season. Not amazing but servicable as a #2/spot starter. Kubiak and the Denver scheme should enable even an average back to excel.

Your first part is true, Davis wears down much faster when he carries the ball too much. Reggie Bush would be a definite improvement over at RB over Domanick and would allow both of them to split time to keep both fresh throughout the season, so Davis would be spelling Bush rather than the other way around. Your last sentence is one main reason why I think Mario would add more to our defense than Bush would add to our offense.

We have talent at some positions. Pitts is a guard. Wiegert and Flanagan are not getting any younger and have both been injury prone. Do you want to start Wand at LT? Are you willing to stake our whole 2006 season on Winston MAYBY falling to #33? Coaching can help alot, but they can't make the worst line in the NFL into a decent one over night. They need a LT and they need depth.

Pitts is a good LT, he would be a great RT if we can get a better OT in there, but I think he is definitely a good enough LT for the Broncos system. While the Broncos system can make average RBs look great, it does the same thing for OLinemen. We don't need to spend our top pick on an OT that is only marginally better than the next few options that are available, especially when one of those three is virtually guaranteed to be there at #33 (Marcus McNeill) and would be a solid RT with Pitts at LT, and there is a chance Eric Winston will be there at #33 as well and he could challenge for the LT spot within a year. I realize Wiegert and Flanagan are getting old, but that is hardly reason to grab an OT with our top pick. I don't want to start Wand anywhere on the OLine, but D'Brickashaw is not going to come in and instantly make our OLine one of the tops in the league on his own, our interior OLine is probably a bigger concern and one good pass-blocking LT that isn't overly effective at run blocking is not going to fix our OLine in this system we're running. If we were running a conventional system then he would maybe have a bigger impact, but not as much so for Kubiak's system.

Grid
04-24-2006, 10:45 PM
BTW.. about the whole "Alex Smith wasnt drafted 1st for talent"

Yah I suppose he wasnt. And he also threw ONE touchdown and eleven interceptions last season.

Ronnie Brown on the other hand, rushed for 907 yards at a 4.4 ypc average and scored 4 TDs.

So, again... you draft for talent, not for need.. with the #1 pick.

thunderkyss
04-24-2006, 11:04 PM
DE is more of a need than RB, so you are taking one step in the direction of saying Mario is the better pick.



There is not that big of a drop off between Ferguson and the next 2-3 OTs, plus Denver's system has shown that you don't need to get the conventional top OLinemen in the draft to enjoy great success with their blocking scheme and offense. Ferguson fits zone blocking well, but so do several other OLinemen in this draft that won't require us to use a top 5 pick on them.


Your first part is true, Davis wears down much faster when he carries the ball too much. Reggie Bush would be a definite improvement over at RB over Domanick .....
........ Your last sentence is one main reason why I think Mario would add more to our defense than Bush would add to our offense.

If we were running a conventional system then he would maybe have a bigger impact, but not as much so for Kubiak's system.

From what I just read, drafting Reggie makes about as much sense as drafting Ferguson........ for the system Kubiak is bringing in, he isn't a necessity........ imagine D'angelo in Denver........ or Addai...... or Moroney.......

thunderkyss
04-24-2006, 11:07 PM
BTW.. about the whole "Alex Smith wasnt drafted 1st for talent"

Yah I suppose he wasnt. And he also threw ONE touchdown and eleven interceptions last season.

Ronnie Brown on the other hand, rushed for 907 yards at a 4.4 ypc average and scored 4 TDs.

So, again... you draft for talent, not for need.. with the #1 pick.

So you're saying San Fran screwed the pooch...... no one is arguing that drafting for talent isn't the right thing to do, but that people like Sanfran draft for talent in respect for need...

Alex, they felt was the most talented QB which they needed.

We drafted Carr, when (by your example) we should have drafted JP.

MorKnolle
04-25-2006, 12:06 AM
From what I just read, drafting Reggie makes about as much sense as drafting Ferguson........ for the system Kubiak is bringing in, he isn't a necessity........ imagine D'angelo in Denver........ or Addai...... or Moroney.......

Exactly, Mario should have the biggest impact on our team of anyone in this draft. I think there is a bigger gap between Bush and the rest of the RBs than between Ferguson and the rest of the OTs and Bush would definitely be a better pick than Ferguson, but Mario is still #1 IMO.

As a side note, can you imagine if we had drafted Peppers and still ended up with the #1 pick this year and drafted Mario Williams? Mario and Peppers would be huge together, I could see both of them picking up 15+ sacks if you have any kind of decent DBs. Anyways, that obviously isn't a reality except on Madden, just wanted to throw that out there.

Grid
04-25-2006, 12:22 AM
hmm.. yah I would like to have JP on our team :)

I like Carr and all and think he can be great.. but in retrospect... Julius Peppers... man...

Texans86
04-25-2006, 01:46 AM
hmm.. yah I would like to have JP on our team :)

I like Carr and all and think he can be great.. but in retrospect... Julius Peppers... man...

I thought Julius Peppers ran a 4-3. Maybe I'm wrong, but he wouldn't be nearly the beast he is now in our old system.

Goatcheese
04-25-2006, 03:05 AM
DE is more of a need than RB, so you are taking one step in the direction of saying Mario is the better pick.

I'm not really against Super Mario at #1. I would be much happier with him than Bush.



There is not that big of a drop off between Ferguson and the next 2-3 OTs, plus Denver's system has shown that you don't need to get the conventional top OLinemen in the draft to enjoy great success with their blocking scheme and offense. Ferguson fits zone blocking well, but so do several other OLinemen in this draft that won't require us to use a top 5 pick on them.

I like Winston, but I don't think he is as close to Brick and Justice as you do. If we end up with Williams at #1 or Hawk in a trade down I'm still going to be excited to get Winston as he is very talented in his own right.



Babin, Peek, and Kalu are weakside DEs.

I know. I was responding to the question "Who will play Weakside DE opposite Weaver?"

Anthony Weaver is a strongside DE that provides no pass rushing threat. Mario Williams can play either DE position and either DT position as well. He can play weakside with Weaver at strongside and provide big-time run stoppers on both sides of the DLine while improving the pass rush over having Peek/Babin in there at weakside. Mario can play strongside DE and leave Peek in there at weakside to provide just as good of a run stopper on strongside as a Weaver/Peek combo would have and it greatly increases the pass rush and draws blocking attention away from Peek to allow him to get in more easily. Mario is arguably the best player in this draft on his own, and he creates so many opportunities and different looks for our defense with his multi-faceted talents.

Nobody can deny Williams insane talent and he is a good pick. I just think a weakside combo of Babin/Hawk + extra picks, looks better than Williams/Greenwood. I won't go into the reason I dislike Morlon "50/50" Greenwood here. Oops guess I did. :embarrass

Your first part is true, Davis wears down much faster when he carries the ball too much. Reggie Bush would be a definite improvement over at RB over Domanick and would allow both of them to split time to keep both fresh throughout the season, so Davis would be spelling Bush rather than the other way around. Your last sentence is one main reason why I think Mario would add more to our defense than Bush would add to our offense.

The only part I don't agree with is who would start. Bush has to adapt to the NFL running style. He won't take the job from DD until he learns to run North-South. And yes, Mario is the better pick.:)



Pitts is a good LT, he would be a great RT if we can get a better OT in there, but I think he is definitely a good enough LT for the Broncos system. While the Broncos system can make average RBs look great, it does the same thing for OLinemen.

The system helps them look better in the running game, but I'm not sure it has that big of an effect on pass protection where we are weakest.

We don't need to spend our top pick on an OT that is only marginally better than the next few options that are available, especially when one of those three is virtually guaranteed to be there at #33 (Marcus McNeill) and would be a solid RT with Pitts at LT, and there is a chance Eric Winston will be there at #33 as well and he could challenge for the LT spot within a year.

I would hope they trade up if Winston isn't going to slip to us. I would love to have a Winston-Pitts duo on the left side. I like Pitts at guard, as do most nfl talent evaluators. He has the size and power to handle DTs but not the quick feet to take on speed rushers 1v1 as a tackle. He will almost always need a TE to help with the outside or the guard to cover the inside move so he can cheat outside.

I realize Wiegert and Flanagan are getting old, but that is hardly reason to grab an OT with our top pick. I don't want to start Wand anywhere on the OLine, but D'Brickashaw is not going to come in and instantly make our OLine one of the tops in the league on his own, our interior OLine is probably a bigger concern and one good pass-blocking LT that isn't overly effective at run blocking is not going to fix our OLine in this system we're running. If we were running a conventional system then he would maybe have a bigger impact, but not as much so for Kubiak's system.

I think Brick would have a bigger impact in a zone scheme because it masks his weakness in the run game and nobody rates out as high as a pass protector. The way D'Brick makes the line better isn't only by starting, but by allowing Pitts to move to guard or even RT depending on where they like Wiegert. Winston does the same of course and I'm not going to be upset if we get him and take a defender first. Defender + oline in the first 2 rounds(any order) will make me happy. D'brick and J.Joseph or Williams/Hawk and Winston. Both improve our team alot.

McNiel looks more like Todd Wade than a zone blocking tackle, so don't think we would be looking at him.

Ofcourse if Pitts does start at tackle, then the interior line needs to be adressed, possibly Matua OG USC, or Colledge could play guard.

My preference has always been a trade down to nab D'Brick or Hawk, but the more I see of Mario the more impressed I am. An ESPN article addressed my concern about his motor and taking plays off by explaining it was the scheme that had him reading and reacting instead of attacking. Sound familiar? As long as we make a smart football move(Williams/trade down) I'm going to be happy. If we take Bush, I'll sigh and get ready to watch some exciting football and impending cap hell(j/k).

Our vision on what the Texans should do is fairly similar. Defense, improve the O-line(although we have different views on position). The biggest coup would be to get Williams in a trade down, now thats good stuff. :redtowel:

thunderkyss
04-25-2006, 08:24 AM
Exactly, Mario should have the biggest impact on our team of anyone in this draft. I think there is a bigger gap between Bush and the rest of the RBs than between Ferguson and the rest of the OTs and Bush would definitely be a better pick than Ferguson, but Mario is still #1 IMO.
the gap may be bigger, but the need is far less..... you'll still need pass protection every now and then, while Denver has made a habit of taking 4th & 6th round backs to ProBowl status.

As a side note, can you imagine if we had drafted Peppers and still ended up with the #1 pick this year and drafted Mario Williams? Mario and Peppers would be huge together, I could see both of them picking up 15+ sacks if you have any kind of decent DBs. Anyways, that obviously isn't a reality except on Madden, just wanted to throw that out there.

That would be scary...... Travis Johnson last year to boot....... mmmmm mmmmm.....

I thought Julius Peppers ran a 4-3. Maybe I'm wrong, but he wouldn't be nearly the beast he is now in our old system.

Most likely why we'd be at the top of this years draft.

MorKnolle
04-25-2006, 08:45 PM
I would hope they trade up if Winston isn't going to slip to us. I would love to have a Winston-Pitts duo on the left side. I like Pitts at guard, as do most nfl talent evaluators. He has the size and power to handle DTs but not the quick feet to take on speed rushers 1v1 as a tackle. He will almost always need a TE to help with the outside or the guard to cover the inside move so he can cheat outside.

I see Pitts the other way, I think he is a better quickness/finesse guy than a power guy, he handled Dwight Freeney (the best speed rusher in the NFL) quite well both games this year, and I think you lose out on his mobility advantage by moving him in to LG. If we get Eric Winston or whoever else that ends up playing LT, I'd much rather have Wiegert at LG and Pitts at RT than the other way around, and I'm not sure Winston/McNeill/whoever would be able to beat Pitts out for the LT spot in 2006.

I think Brick would have a bigger impact in a zone scheme because it masks his weakness in the run game and nobody rates out as high as a pass protector. The way D'Brick makes the line better isn't only by starting, but by allowing Pitts to move to guard or even RT depending on where they like Wiegert. Winston does the same of course and I'm not going to be upset if we get him and take a defender first. Defender + oline in the first 2 rounds(any order) will make me happy. D'brick and J.Joseph or Williams/Hawk and Winston. Both improve our team alot.

I think the opposite again, the Broncos system is one predicated on establishing the run first and then setting up the passing game by dominating on the ground. The Broncos system isn't built on drop back passing first and setting up a pocket around the QB (D'Brick's strength), it runs first and then uses play actions and rollouts a lot in the passing game. D'Brick is the best pass blocker in the draft and would probably be better in a zone blocking scheme than a traditional one, but I think he's a little soft and I think he's not a real good run blocker, which is more important in the Broncos system IMO.

McNiel looks more like Todd Wade than a zone blocking tackle, so don't think we would be looking at him.

I somewhat agree, McNeill is fairly athletic but moreso in straight-line running than in side-to-side motion, but he is pretty talented and would be an option, but I agree he's not the optimal fit for us.

My preference has always been a trade down to nab D'Brick or Hawk, but the more I see of Mario the more impressed I am. An ESPN article addressed my concern about his motor and taking plays off by explaining it was the scheme that had him reading and reacting instead of attacking. Sound familiar? As long as we make a smart football move(Williams/trade down) I'm going to be happy. If we take Bush, I'll sigh and get ready to watch some exciting football and impending cap hell(j/k).

Glad to see you're warming up to Mario, I wish he had gotten more attention from the media like this before so people would be more aware of his talents.

Our vision on what the Texans should do is fairly similar. Defense, improve the O-line(although we have different views on position). The biggest coup would be to get Williams in a trade down, now thats good stuff. :redtowel:

Agreed, but I don't see us being able to trade down more than a pick or two and having any chance of getting Mario, and I don't see us getting any kind of offer from those top couple teams.

I thought Julius Peppers ran a 4-3. Maybe I'm wrong, but he wouldn't be nearly the beast he is now in our old system.

True he would not, although he is athletic enough you could have played him at OLB in a 3-4, that would be even scarier having him not have to play with his hand down and getting more of a running start around the edge, but either way that is just dreaming at this point.