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dhaNim
04-19-2006, 12:34 PM
This question was asked to him during his chat this morning and the answer was quite suprising as to how high david carr is regarded...

Why would the Texans pay so much for Carr when he has not proved to amount to much,. they gave him a 8 mil roster bonus. Wouldnt they money been netter spent elsewhere..

Chris Mortensen: (12:28 PM ET ) It's funny, as I've spoken to these proven talent evaluators in the league, the consensus among them is that there have been only three "true" top-pick quarterback talents since 1998 - Peyton Manning, David Carr and Carson Palmer. Carr was mentioned by almost all of them. They had other issues on offense.

Errant Hothy
04-19-2006, 12:35 PM
Eric Warth Texas
Why would the Texans pay so much for Carr when he has not proved to amount to much,. they gave him a 8 mil roster bonus. Wouldnt they money been netter spent elsewhere..

CHRIS MORTENSEN
It's funny, as I've spoken to these proven talent evaluators in the league, the consensus among them is that there have been only three true top-pick quarterback talents since 1998 - Peyton Manning, David Carr and Carson Palmer. Carr was mentioned by almost all of them. They had other issues on offense.


Might shed some light on why Carr was kept. This is from Mort's current chat session.

dhaNim
04-19-2006, 12:36 PM
haha i guess we read this at the same time... i guess our posts with be merged...

tex
04-19-2006, 12:44 PM
Not suprising to me

Errant Hothy
04-19-2006, 12:44 PM
More about the talent on hand:

Dan, Pittsburgh
I know it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse, but how could the Texans NOT trade away Reggie Bush to pick up a couple O-linemen to protect their QB?

CHRIS MORTENSEN
The Broncos' system that Kubiak has brought to the Texans has never called for stud O-linemen. The running game offers the protection; also, the talent on hand is better than most people think.

MightyTExan
04-19-2006, 12:48 PM
That's cool. I posted this in the NFL section, but I think this is an interesting comment considering how similiar Carr and Harrington's careers are:

Harrington was interviewed on the draft show last night:

They did a quick interview. He said he likes competition. And then something to the effect that his problems in Detroit were because he was just handed the starting job and not having a good team.

Mike Kerns
04-19-2006, 12:57 PM
there have been only three "true" top-pick quarterback talents since 1998 - Peyton Manning, David Carr and Carson Palmer. Carr was mentioned by almost all of them.

Wow. That is some good company. Hopefully that is the 2006 or 2007 AFC pro bowl roster for QB's.:redtowel:

Mailman04
04-19-2006, 01:01 PM
Chris Mortensen is a good friend of mine and is one of the best sources for NFL football. He doesn't have all the biased crap ESPN has in baseball, etc. Gammons and those clowns are all Boston Red Sox fans, but Chris does a good job. his son is the 3rd string QB here at Arkansas and Chris lives in Bella Vista, just north of Fayetteville. He thinks the Texans will take Bush with the first pick.

chuckm
04-19-2006, 01:05 PM
Mortensen is going to be on Dan Patrick's show shortly ....

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 01:06 PM
Yeah I was going to start a thread on this, but I wanted to wait until after the draft ( to filter out the emotional cheerleader factor )

( not saying there is anything wrong with emotions or cheerleaders though. That's fine and they are fine. I cry too. )

When does it become a Carr problem or QB problem?

I had a hard time last season looking at Carr, when I watched Brett Favre and some others play. Toss that in with the Harrington implosion.

Can you blame it all on the OL? Favre is old and had a horrible line last season. His support problems were close to our own. They had to go 4 to 6 deep to find a running back to start.

Carr is young and Favre is on his last leg. Certainly if you cannot expect your quarterback to be better than a HOFer, you could at least expect him to be doing better than an ageing 'about to' retire HOFer.... but it didn't look that way.

Now I will tell you that Carr is my man, but when do I check myself and say... I have a worm instead of a butterfly? ( when it's past the time that I should be seeing wings )

Does anybody know of place that counts dropped balls? Is that it?

El Tejano
04-19-2006, 01:09 PM
Yeah I was going to start a thread on this, but I wanted to wait until after the draft ( to filter out the emotional cheerleader factor )

( not saying there is anything wrong with emotions or cheerleaders though. That's fine and they are fine. I cry too. )

When does it become a Carr problem or QB problem?

I had a hard time last season looking at Carr, when I watched Brett Favre and some others play. Toss that in with the Harrington implosion.

Can you blame it all on the OL? Favre is old and had a horrible line last season. His support problems were close to our own. They had to go 4 to 6 deep to find a running back to start.

Carr is young and Favre is on his last leg. Certainly if you cannot expect your quarterback to be better than a HOFer, you could at least expect him to be doing better than an ageing about to retire HOFer.... but it didn't look that way.

Now I will tell you that Carr is my man, but when do I check myself and say... I have a worm instead of a butterfly? ( when it's past the time that I should be seeing wings )

Does anybody know of place that counts dropped balls? Is that it?
Favre may have had a horrible offensive line but he also had a pretty good offensive scheme. Carr has had a very limited offense because of the staff that was brought in. Palmer is just a horrible offensive coordinator.

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 01:19 PM
Favre may have had a horrible offensive line but he also had a pretty good offensive scheme. Carr has had a very limited offense because of the staff that was brought in. Palmer is just a horrible offensive coordinator.

So are you saying this it then? If he doesn't fly like a champ this season, it's a problem with the quarterback.

chuckm
04-19-2006, 01:28 PM
Mort's take for those that don't have access to radio ....


Texan's are gathering data and will begin negotiating with both Bush and Williams ...... they are getting "virtually no action" for a trade out of #1 ... teams across the league are split on the best player in the draft between Bush and Williams .... he doesn't think they can trade out .... Texans have called the Jets 3 times inquiring about a trade only to be rebuffed each time ... thinks the Texans will take Bush ....

infantrycak
04-19-2006, 01:40 PM
Does anybody know of place that counts dropped balls? Is that it?

Carr had 21 drops last year or 5% of overall attempts or 12.6% of incompletions--from Stats, Inc. (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/index.asp)

Double Barrel
04-19-2006, 01:50 PM
I'm honestly up in the air about Carr. My eyes have seen many troublesome tendencies in his abilities, but my ears are being told that any QB will look horrible on bad teams with disfunctional coaching.

I really want to believe the dude has got the goods, but the proof is in action, not words. So he's our QB, and I'll root for him...but I just have this nagging doubt about the guy that I hope gets put to rest next season.

But better football minds that my feeble one have said that Carr has got the talent, so I suppose only time will tell.

Tulip
04-19-2006, 01:54 PM
How odd, given the constant arguments up to the 1998 draft: who's better - Leaf or Manning?

We all know how it turned out, but that's mere hindsight.

U4ikrob
04-19-2006, 01:55 PM
Favre may have had a horrible offensive line but he also had a pretty good offensive scheme. Carr has had a very limited offense because of the staff that was brought in. Palmer is just a horrible offensive coordinator.

And thankfully we moved on from Palmer/Capers and we still will get to see the results of their coaching this year since Dom is in Miami and Palmer is up in Dallas with Parcells again. Now we can see how good/or bad their coaching really is since both are in positions to make choices again. I'm really interested to see if Palmer succeeds or flops with Bledsoe and the Cowboys -Should make for a real interesting game come October.

IMO - A lot of players on this club need to prove some things on the field this year to keep their jobs.

nunusguy
04-19-2006, 02:02 PM
It's funny, as I've spoken to these proven talent evaluators in the league, the consensus among them is that there have been only three true top-pick quarterback talents since 1998 - Peyton Manning, David Carr and Carson Palmer. Carr was mentioned by almost all of them. They had other issues on offense.
Might shed some light on why Carr was kept.
That's fine, and reassuring I guess even though I'm never that impressed with these anonymous sources the media has.
But the endorsement that really means something to me is Kubiaks. His knowledge and credentials are well documeted. And his opinion of Carr is
well known. Its the one that really means something to me.

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 02:04 PM
I like Drew Bledsoe... he's a ProBowler.... he puts up good stats, doesn't make too many stupid mistakes.

But when he's messing up, I'll tell you.

Same with Peyton, Same with Donovan, and Culpepper.

Put any of those guys on bad teams, and I can tell you when they are playing well, or when they are playing bad. When they are lifting their teams, and when they are dragging them down.

Same thing with David. He may very well be as talented & smart as Peyton & Carson............ but he played very poorly the second half of 2004, & all of 2005(well most of it).

Put it this way. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to get a team to the SuperBowl. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to win a SuperBowl. & while he did take his team to the SuperBowl once, and he owns an NFL Championship ring........ he's never won the superbowl, and time is running out.

Nighthawk
04-19-2006, 02:04 PM
CHRIS MORTENSEN
It's funny, as I've spoken to these proven talent evaluators in the league, the consensus among them is that there have been only three true top-pick quarterback talents since 1998 - Peyton Manning, David Carr and Carson Palmer.


Somebody's sniffing somebody's jock big time. This is just plain silly.

Errant Hothy
04-19-2006, 02:09 PM
Somebody's sniffing somebody's jock big time. This is just plain silly.

Yup, cause we all know you know more then Mort or the magority of the NFL talent guys he's quoting.:rolleyes:

Why is it so hard for some of y'all to accept that Carr might be better then you think, and if given half a cahnce he ight just prove you wrong?

jaayteetx
04-19-2006, 02:22 PM
Yup, cause we all know you know more then Mort or the magority of the NFL talent guys he's quoting.:rolleyes:

Why is it so hard for some of y'all to accept that Carr might be better then you think, and if given half a cahnce he ight just prove you wrong?

Took the words right outta my mouth..

Runner
04-19-2006, 02:26 PM
Yup, cause we all know you know more then Mort or the magority of the NFL talent guys he's quoting.:rolleyes:

Why is it so hard for some of y'all to accept that Carr might be better then you think, and if given half a cahnce he ight just prove you wrong?

This answer doesn't necessarily relate to the Carr situation or any specific poster, but in general I've found that:

It is very hard for many people to change an opinion about some of these things. They may think it makes them look unintelligent to change their minds. In reality, only stubbornness is demonstrated when they hold their opinion no matter what evidence is presented. Many times they make up so much stuff to support their failing argument that they just look silly. For instance one that sticks in my mind from these boards:

"Reggie Bush has too much speed to be successful in the NFL. He'll get to the line before the hole opens up". Now that's a classic.

Don't worry though, when it becomes painfully obvious (in hindsight) they were wrong most will join the "knew it all along" bunch and no one will call them on it because everybody is happy.


Before everyone gets in an uproar, let me say the majority of people on this board try to argue their point of view with logic and some presentation of facts or solid opinion. Most of the time, people can honestly come to different conclusions. This is what makes discussion interesting - the opportunity to broaden yourself or convince someone else.

Kaiser Toro
04-19-2006, 02:32 PM
That is what I wanted to hear from the grapevine, Kubiak thinks that Carr will be incrementally better and the Oline was better than the past staff thought. Add in a #2 WR, a #1 pass catching TE, a FB that fits the Kubiak systrem and a new Center that can be a coach on the field for his former coach.

Now does anyone truly believe that we should spend 7-8 million on an uproven RB when we have made so many additions to the offense and the players that have been retained are expected to raise their game another level as well? Spend on the defensive side of the ball, the offense will be great next year with Carr zinging the ball and handing off to Davis and Morency.

CoastalTexan
04-19-2006, 02:49 PM
Look what Carr did to St. Louis in the first half calling his own plays, 24 points in ONE QUARTER. Then Pendry took over and we only scored a couple field goals in the second. I'd say Carr had the ability, just not the coaching.

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 02:57 PM
Look what Carr did to St. Louis in the first half calling his own plays, 24 points in ONE QUARTER. Then Pendry took over and we only scored a couple field goals in the second. I'd say Carr had the ability, just not the coaching.

he didn't call his own plays in the St Louis game, that was Pendry.

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 03:02 PM
Yup, cause we all know you know more then Mort or the magority of the NFL talent guys he's quoting.:rolleyes:

Why is it so hard for some of y'all to accept that Carr might be better then you think, and if given half a cahnce he ight just prove you wrong?

The second line item is what I want to get to.

( I don't know what to tell you other then humans are humans and I wouldn't be so hasty with experts. I wager you would take me up on more then a few dollars that a squad of Brownies could out coach at least one former NFL coach )

So I am thinking right now exactly what you are asking. Why is it hard for me to believe in what Mort is saying when I did to begin with before he said it?

The word is bad coaching, bad offense line, bad team.

So I really can't check myself on Carson and Manning. Carson got his Pro Bowl on the third run. Manning only really looked bad his first season, but still shined at times.

I took the Stats. Inc link and checked
Favre - bad line, bad team, ( coach got fired, most likely other issues )
Harrington - bad line, bad team, bad coaching ( supposedly )
Carr - bad line, bad team ( I don't agree ), bad coaching ( I am still learning )

The stats are telling me anything. Carr and Harrington have fairly close ratio's depending on how you bend the difference of attempts and games played.

The big difference I saw was this OTHER category... not sure what's up with that.

Favre had a few more attempts with the same dropped pass count and a higher poor throw count.

( granted I am not breaking down the strength of schedule )

SOoo I am asking you... where do you lay it down?

"if given half a chance he might just prove you wrong?"

We gave him 4 seasons already. Is it one more? Or is two more because he needs 'time' to adjust? I get nervous when I have to say 2 more, because then I am saying I will give him 6 seasons to shine like a pro-bowler.

the question is not so much about whether or not he is or isn't worth a damn... the question is how do I know? And how much time should be given to find out?

PokerStar
04-19-2006, 03:05 PM
Most people on this board do not dispute Carr's ability, but his production. I think Carr is an awesome QB that lost faith in his coaches and it showed the whole team over as the seasons and sacks wore on. He is the type of QB that needs to be pretty aggressive to be successful and he became gunshy for whatever reason.

In other football cities most fans think the Carr is a very talented QB. I hope that this year and next Kubiak and Carr develop this team into the playoff team we all want to see.

the wonger need food
04-19-2006, 03:07 PM
Look what Carr did to St. Louis in the first half calling his own plays, 24 points in ONE QUARTER. Then Pendry took over and we only scored a couple field goals in the second. I'd say Carr had the ability, just not the coaching.

It was against Arizona. Carr had a total of 150 yards passing and zero TD's for the game. He audibled to the offtackle run just about every play in that half. It was by no means an All Pro performance... just another example of evisionist history.

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 03:09 PM
In other football cities most fans think the Carr is a very talented QB. I hope that this year and next Kubiak and Carr develop this team into the playoff team we all want to see.

Yeah, that's what they say. & will continue to say as long as Carr is on our team. Ask them what they'll give you for him, and they'll rattle off the names of 2, maybe 3 players that shouldn't be on any NFL team.

Runner
04-19-2006, 03:15 PM
Most people on this board do not dispute Carr's ability, but his production. I think Carr is an awesome QB that lost faith in his coaches and it showed the whole team over as the seasons and sacks wore on. He is the type of QB that needs to be pretty aggressive to be successful and he became gunshy for whatever reason.


I think he will be more aggressive this year. I think this will lead to some big plays over the course of the season, but it will also lead to a few more interceptions. I think we should all be prepared for this increase and not see that one stat as an indicator of failure by itself, especially if the sack totals go down as well. We have some big play athletes. We need to challenge them to make plays.

wags
04-19-2006, 03:24 PM
This is pure poppycock! Mort just has a man-crush on Carr.


;)

Bear
04-19-2006, 03:33 PM
I'm just using this as an example for those of you that are native Houstonians and can relate to this.

Growing up here..

1) You thought Rice Military would never be more than a used car lot
2) You never, ever would be around the Dome at night unless you were visiting the "blue stop" on Main ;)
3) Downtown, as a whole, closed at 5:00 pm except for the bums

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Carr. I'm just saying that impressions can last a looooooong time. Even if things are changing, you still view it as the same.

:twocents:

Reddevil63
04-19-2006, 03:41 PM
he didn't call his own plays in the St Louis game, that was Pendry.
No, that was Carr. He called his plays at the line for the first half and scored 24 points. In the 2nd half Pendry took over to protect the lead and the rest is history.

eltoro
04-19-2006, 03:42 PM
That is what I wanted to hear from the grapevine, Kubiak thinks that Carr will be incrementally better and the Oline was better than the past staff thought. Add in a #2 WR, a #1 pass catching TE, a FB that fits the Kubiak systrem and a new Center that can be a coach on the field for his former coach.

Now does anyone truly believe that we should spend 7-8 million on an uproven RB when we have made so many additions to the offense and the players that have been retained are expected to raise their game another level as well? Spend on the defensive side of the ball, the offense will be great next year with Carr zinging the ball and handing off to Davis and Morency.

Do you really believe that Davis/Morency are even close to the talent level of Bush? Or is this where you try to come up with some intelligent "macro economic" analysis to justify taking Williams at #1?

Caphorn
04-19-2006, 03:47 PM
Davis is a VERY talented RB. Bush is unproven of course at the NFL level. Right now it seems utterly arrogant to say that DD is not "even close" to the talent level of Bush. I'd say he's not even close to the hyped, perceived value of Bush in the media. Only Chuck Norris or Ditka compare to Bush on that level. That's all.

Reddevil63
04-19-2006, 03:50 PM
Davis is a VERY talented RB. Bush is unproven of course at the NFL level. Right now it seems utterly arrogant to say that DD is not "even close" to the talent level of Bush. I'd say he's not even close to the hyped, perceived value of Bush in the media. Only Chuck Norris or Ditka compare to Bush on that level. That's all.
Its not arrogance, Davis doesnt have near the break away speed of Bush or the ability to make people miss in the open field. Davis is a decent back, Bush has the physical abilities to be a great homerun hitting back.

eltoro
04-19-2006, 03:59 PM
Davis is a VERY talented RB. Bush is unproven of course at the NFL level. Right now it seems utterly arrogant to say that DD is not "even close" to the talent level of Bush. I'd say he's not even close to the hyped, perceived value of Bush in the media. Only Chuck Norris or Ditka compare to Bush on that level. That's all.

Davis is "average" NFL talent - very good for a fourth round pick, but nothing special. While I agree that Bush has to prove himself at the next level, I would rather start a season with him in the backfield than DD - just my personal preference. However, next year when DD goes down to yet another injury and we have Morency "tearing it up," we very well might regret not taking Bush...

Caphorn
04-19-2006, 04:00 PM
No disrespect Red, but when Bush was faced with a speedy D like Texas he ran off a whopping 83 yards. Against an NFL D, I'm not sure but I'd imagine his numbers are likely lower than that. He's not a between-the-tackles guy like DD. I just think that factor alone gives DD more value from an NFL perspective. So, maybe, for whatever reason, you've equated open-field running ability with NFL RB talent. Not the same though.

Caphorn
04-19-2006, 04:03 PM
Davis is "average" NFL talent - very good for a fourth round pick, but nothing special. While I agree that Bush has to prove himself at the next level, I would rather start a season with him in the backfield than DD - just my personal preference. However, next year when DD goes down to yet another injury and we have Morency "tearing it up," we very well might regret not taking Bush...

I agree that Davis is average to above average for NFL guys. Bush has yet to prove he's in that category is my point, especially since he was so infrequently used and most of his highlight reel plays were not run inside the tackles.

I think the latter part of your post might be understood by keeping in mind that the RBs that Kubiak succeeded with in prior stints were probably on the same level of a Morency or Davis.

eltoro
04-19-2006, 04:06 PM
Well, I don't necessarily put Portis in that category, but your point is well-taken. I just don't think anyone can/should be too critical/supportive of these kids until they prove themselves at the NFL level...However, that should apply across the board - Ferguson, Bush, Young, etc.

I like DD and have admired his tough running. But I would love the idea of putting Bush in the backfield with him and seeing what types of opportunities open for them both.

dalemurphy
04-19-2006, 04:07 PM
Look, the QB's performance is much more reliant on circumstance (coaching, surrounding talent, system) than any other position. Obviously there is a feeling out there that the previous staff and situation did not tap into Carr's abilities. Furthermore, Kubiak seems confident that he will be able to tap into that. Saying Carr didn't play well last season is to acknowledge that he's not John Elway... because only John Elway had the talent to overcome the situation with the Texan's offense last year.

Facts:

1. Most routes were hooks and outs
2. the system was totally unimaginative
3. there were constant breakdowns in protection
4. Corey Bradford can't catch but he still started
5. TEs were poor
6. Carr was not allowed to audible to a pass- and the defenses knew it
7. Pendry is an idiot
8. the team acquired a defeatist attitude


Why people try to attack Carr, I don't fully understand. Obviously, the past 1.5 seasons, he has played poorly. However, most people would also acknowledge that the former coaching staff was an utter failure. So, isn't it reasonable to hope/think that many players, Carr included, will play much better with the new staff that everyone seems to be quite high on?

All Mort was saying is that there exists among NFL personnel men a consensus that Carr posesses the QB tools to be a very good QB- he's not saying that he has been or will be a very good QB.

Caphorn
04-19-2006, 04:16 PM
All Mort was saying is that there exists among NFL personnel men a consensus that Carr posesses the QB tools to be a very good QB- he's not saying that he has been or will be a very good QB.

I think you are just skewing what he said just a bit. The fact is that Peyton Manning could look like sh!t if he didn't get pass protection. I'd love to see Peyton regularly having to run for his life to get off a pass to a receiver who can't run a route or catch it when Peyton's worked his *** off to get it to him. It's just a bit discouraging what Carr's been though. I think that's what he's saying. Carr would - by most professional evaluator's estimations - be a top QB worthy of the No. 1 pick today and the Texans problems on offense were not reflective of the quality they have in Carr. Boom. End of story.

kiwitexansfan
04-19-2006, 04:29 PM
I think you are just skewing what he said just a bit. The fact is that Peyton Manning could look like sh!t if he didn't get pass protection. I'd love to see Peyton regularly having to run for his life to get off a pass to a receiver who can't run a route or catch it when Peyton's worked his *** off to get it to him. It's just a bit discouraging what Carr's been though. I think that's what he's saying. Carr would - by most professional evaluator's estimations - be a top QB worthy of the No. 1 pick today and the Texans problems on offense were not reflective of the quality they have in Carr. Boom. End of story.


Peyton himself blamed the playoff loss on poor line play. I think Carr would of taken that line play in a herat beat all season.

I think it is wrong to say that Mortenson has a man crush on Carr like has been suggested. It takes a bit of guts to still be saying that Carr is/was top pick quality after 5 years of inconsistent (at best) or dissappointing perfomances.

dalemurphy
04-19-2006, 04:33 PM
I think you are just skewing what he said just a bit. The fact is that Peyton Manning could look like sh!t if he didn't get pass protection. I'd love to see Peyton regularly having to run for his life to get off a pass to a receiver who can't run a route or catch it when Peyton's worked his *** off to get it to him. It's just a bit discouraging what Carr's been though. I think that's what he's saying. Carr would - by most professional evaluator's estimations - be a top QB worthy of the No. 1 pick today and the Texans problems on offense were not reflective of the quality they have in Carr. Boom. End of story.

You should reread my post more carefully. Then, reread what Mort said. I certainly haven't skewed anything.

Caphorn
04-19-2006, 04:47 PM
Maybe I'm misreading your post, but it seemed that Mort was saying that Carr was a talented QB (not just a guy who has the tools) and that his talent - even in light of the Texans poor team performance - is still viewed as worthy of a No. 1 draft pick. He's not just saying he has tools to succeed, but might not succeed. He's saying Carr is an elite QB talent that you pay a ton of money for to play the position.

Kaiser Toro
04-19-2006, 05:11 PM
Do you really believe that Davis/Morency are even close to the talent level of Bush? Or is this where you try to come up with some intelligent "macro economic" analysis to justify taking Williams at #1?

Never said that. Before you start worrying about macro economics, maybe a program for you like RIF would be better served.

Grid
04-19-2006, 05:34 PM
Bush's stats in the Rose bowl werent bad by any stretch of the imagination. And he would have had more than 100 yards rushing if he hadnt made that boneheaded lateral.

Rushing and Recieving, and considering that he had a spy on him the whole game.. Bush's stats were very good.

Mortenson is my new favorite talking head :)..Looks like he actually did some research.

swtbound07
04-19-2006, 05:40 PM
I think you are just skewing what he said just a bit. The fact is that Peyton Manning could look like sh!t if he didn't get pass protection. I'd love to see Peyton regularly having to run for his life to get off a pass to a receiver who can't run a route or catch it when Peyton's worked his *** off to get it to him. It's just a bit discouraging what Carr's been though. I think that's what he's saying. Carr would - by most professional evaluator's estimations - be a top QB worthy of the No. 1 pick today and the Texans problems on offense were not reflective of the quality they have in Carr. Boom. End of story.


The difference is david carr DOES look like poop on most occasions. Its nice and easy for nfl pundits to say "sure...that carr guy...he'll be great someday". They have no vested interest in our franchise...they dont have to sit through the 2-14 seasons, and if he never develops, they dont have to own up to being wrong. Who lost their jobs for talking on espn about ryan leaf being better than manning?

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 05:50 PM
No he did.

No he didn't

No, that was Carr. He called his plays at the line for the first half and scored 24 points. In the 2nd half Pendry took over to protect the lead and the rest is history.

You wish... that was Pendry, the whole game.

Do you really believe that Davis/Morency are even close to the talent level of Bush? Or is this where you try to come up with some intelligent "macro economic" analysis to justify taking Williams at #1?

Statwise, DD's Rookie year compares favorably to LT & Ronnie Browns Rookie years. Over his first three years, he's right there with the best of them. The man gets no love.......



Its not arrogance, Davis doesnt have near the break away speed of Bush or the ability to make people miss in the open field. Davis is a decent back, Bush has the physical abilities to be a great homerun hitting back.

So whose got more Talent?? Joey Galloway, or Peyton Manning..... Galloway has breakaway speed, Manning doesn't.

Davis is "average" NFL talent - very good for a fourth round pick, but nothing special. While I agree that Bush has to prove himself at the next level, I would rather start a season with him in the backfield than DD - just my personal preference. However, next year when DD goes down to yet another injury and we have Morency "tearing it up," we very well might regret not taking Bush...

Next year, we'll be looking at Adrian Peterson if that happens. The year after that, we'll be wishing Jamal Charles would leave school early. Being only the second Mack Brown player to leave school early.

I agree that Davis is average to above average for NFL guys. Bush has yet to prove he's in that category is my point, especially since he was so infrequently used and most of his highlight reel plays were not run inside the tackles.

I think the latter part of your post might be understood by keeping in mind that the RBs that Kubiak succeeded with in prior stints were probably on the same level of a Morency or Davis.

most of the plays on Bush's highlight real has him as a reciever, not a running back.

and You're correct. The highest Shanahan/Kubiak has drafted a running back, was Clinton Portis in the Third round. Then Terrell Davis, was a 4th rounder, and everyone else was either a sixth round pick, I think.


Why people try to attack Carr, I don't fully understand. Obviously, the past 1.5 seasons, he has played poorly. However, most people would also acknowledge that the former coaching staff was an utter failure. So, isn't it reasonable to hope/think that many players, Carr included, will play much better with the new staff that everyone seems to be quite high on?

All Mort was saying is that there exists among NFL personnel men a consensus that Carr posesses the QB tools to be a very good QB- he's not saying that he has been or will be a very good QB.

I know you don't want to hear this, and most people on this board are going to come up with another excuse........ but our offense has gotten simpler & simpler every year, less & less imaginative.


Carr would - by most professional evaluator's estimations - be a top QB worthy of the No. 1 pick today and the Texans problems on offense were not reflective of the quality they have in Carr. Boom. End of story.

How many times was Carr sacked in 2003?? How many other QBs need more than a ProBowl Reciever, and a solid running game before you can judge his NFL capabilities??

infantrycak
04-19-2006, 05:56 PM
It was against Arizona. Carr had a total of 150 yards passing and zero TD's for the game. He audibled to the offtackle run just about every play in that half. It was by no means an All Pro performance... just another example of evisionist history.

Yeah, nice revisionist history--but by whom. I guess they most have run a hundred or so offensive plays that half so that Carr's 16 of 20 passing qualifies (93 of the yards) as the fraction left over from just about every play. Let's see 20 passing attempts in the 1st half--13 in the second half--nope no difference there.

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 06:17 PM
Why people try to attack Carr, I don't fully understand. Obviously, the past 1.5 seasons, he has played poorly. However, most people would also acknowledge that the former coaching staff was an utter failure.
All Mort was saying is that there exists among NFL personnel men a consensus that Carr posesses the QB tools to be a very good QB- he's not saying that he has been or will be a very good QB.

that's fair enough. The thing though is that few attack Carr ( this includes myself ).

When should I? and when should they? That is what I am asking you to educate me on.

Or let me re-state that... When do I have a logically sound reason to think my quarterback isn't going to be able to hack it?

Plummer is a pretty aggressive 'decider'. It took him what 6 or 7 seasons on a bad team, before he started to shine a bit in Denver. But he got a Pro Bowl alt bid in his second season before getting another last season.

Is Carr suppossed to be like that? And the Plummer bowl nod was a fluke bid back then?

HoustonFan
04-19-2006, 06:21 PM
I'm hoping that Carr lives up to or exceeds what his supporters, myself included, thinks he can do.

The offseaon has been exciting though and I JUST CAN'T WAIT FOR THE SEASON TO START. NFL & COLLEGE!!!!

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 06:25 PM
that's fair enough. The thing though is that few attack Carr ( this includes myself ).

When should I? and when should they? That is what I am asking you to educate me on.

Or let me re-state that... When do I have a logically sound reason to think my quarterback isn't going to be able to hack it?

Plummer is a pretty aggressive 'decider'. It took him what 6 or 7 seasons on a bad team, before he started to shine a bit in Denver. But he got a Pro Bowl alt bid in his second season before getting another last season.

Is Carr suppossed to be like that? And the Plummer bowl nod was a fluke bid back then?

Nope, Plummer shined from day one.... it wasn't till his 4th, maybe 5th year that some thought he was ruined. Same with kitna, showed promise, but now........

Yeah, nice revisionist history--but by whom. I guess they most have run a hundred or so offensive plays that half so that Carr's 16 of 20 passing qualifies (93 of the yards) as the fraction left over from just about every play. Let's see 20 passing attempts in the 1st half--13 in the second half--nope no difference there.


I can't see the Wonger's reply....... I don't have him on ignore or anything??

Does he have me on ignore??

Caphorn
04-19-2006, 06:40 PM
Bush's stats in the Rose bowl werent bad by any stretch of the imagination. And he would have had more than 100 yards rushing [b]if he hadnt made that boneheaded lateral.[/b[

Rushing and Recieving, and considering that he had a spy on him the whole game.. Bush's stats were very good.

Mortenson is my new favorite talking head :)..Looks like he actually did some research.

Not to dispute, but it does seem a bit silly to say that I'm underestimating how good Reggie is because I'm not including yardage from a play on which he made very possibly the defining BONEHEADED play of the game. Maybe QBs should be given credit for yardage on intercepted passes while we are at it? :)

Bush didn't have a horrible game against Texas. But it was the best defense he faced last year and he ran for 83 yards and his receiving yards were nto stellar (the fumbled play was a pass reception). I think people wrongly assume that with more carries he would continue at the same yards per carry. The FACT that USC used him so infrenquently meant you could not focus your D on stopping him. You really had to deal with a balanced attack in situations where the odds heavily favor that the play will NOT be run to Bush. So while Texas spied Bush, the defense was more designed to deal with USC's amazing passing attack. What we couldn't account for was Lendale White's ability to run it up the gut.

I actually like Reggie Bush. But I don't think anyone can easily conclude that he's a more talented runner than a between the tackles guy like DD (just like its not fair to conclude that VY is better than Carr.

trutxn
04-19-2006, 07:01 PM
David Carr is a good player, but he has never been labeled a "phenom", not even in college. I have followed the Texans since they were only a hat, I loved the Oilers as well. When a team has a chance to draft a hometown hero they need to do it. Vince Young is the face of Houston and he is a real Texan. It would benefit the Texans to draft Vince and sit him a year behind Carr, let Carr prove his value as a number one pick and then trade next year for a top five pick. That would give the Texans two picks in the first round next year. That would also allow Vince to learn the entire playbook. Carr w/ Bush will not get us to the Super Bowl, sure our offense would be explosive, but that didn't help the Colts at all. The two additional picks for next year can be used to draft solid defensive help. One year of patience could turn the Texans into a dynasty, led by a real group of Texans!

Master Po
04-19-2006, 07:19 PM
No disrespect Red, but when Bush was faced with a speedy D like Texas he ran off a whopping 83 yards. Against an NFL D, I'm not sure but I'd imagine his numbers are likely lower than that. He's not a between-the-tackles guy like DD. I just think that factor alone gives DD more value from an NFL perspective. So, maybe, for whatever reason, you've equated open-field running ability with NFL RB talent. Not the same though.

Yeah, on just 13 carries. Also had 6 receptions for 95 yds, and 279 total yds against that great Longhorn D.

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 07:27 PM
Nope, Plummer shined from day one.... it wasn't till his 4th, maybe 5th year that some thought he was ruined. Same with kitna, showed promise, but now........


mmm I don't know. I am looking over his stats and it looks like he got into trouble the third season. He didn't toss more TDs/INTs until 2001. He didn't start putting up numbers that you want see from a franchise QB until his first year in Denver ( franchise QB meaning somebody that's in the top ten of his position in the league ).

You could make a case that Plummer 'could' be ranked top 10.

Kitna I would kick out. I don't see how he compares to Carr. He has been fighting uphill the whole way. Even when he was winning, he had more people saying he's not worth it to the ones that said he was. Plus I don't believe anybody ever claimed him to be a franchise QB. ( at best a good QB )

The thing about Plummer is that he had national rep for being a good QB without really doing anything special on the field ( that often ). This is how Carr is right now. We expect him to be franchise QB and a killer... not a Dilfer.

That is what Mort is saying. That Carr is worth the franchise QB money.

CHECK THAT:
I expect Carr to be a top5 Qb for #1 over-all draft spot. Not just a journeyman OK QB.
Looks like Plummer was a second rounder

trutxn
04-19-2006, 07:32 PM
That is were you are wrong. Way wrong. What Carr did with that Fresno team will never be forgoten, he is a King in Fresno and Bakersfield, even the whole state of California.

Carr played only 2 years, compare his 2 year stats to some guys that played 4 years or even compare just 2 years Carr kills.

You must be from Fresno. If Carr was all that in CA, the Texans would be getting a few more offers from the Raiders and Chargers. At least offers! And how come people can use Carr's college performance for support, but try to forget what Vince did? Carr is a good player, not great. I hope he does well, just not with the Texans. We need a player that is not going to run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage, no matter who is chasing him. I will compare Carr's last four years with the Texans to anyone, O-line or not his numbers should be better with a receiver like Andre Johnson on the field. It took four games for Carr to even throw his way last year, whats up with that?

Carr Bombed
04-19-2006, 07:51 PM
No disrespect Red, but when Bush was faced with a speedy D like Texas he ran off a whopping 83 yards. Against an NFL D, I'm not sure but I'd imagine his numbers are likely lower than that. He's not a between-the-tackles guy like DD. I just think that factor alone gives DD more value from an NFL perspective. So, maybe, for whatever reason, you've equated open-field running ability with NFL RB talent. Not the same though.No disrespect Caphorn, but when Bush faced the speedy D that Texas ran he had a whopping 6.3 ypc avg. a higher avg. than Lendale White had in the game that so many people were praising, until his horrible pro day.

Bush wasn't stopped by Texas, he was stopped by Pete Carroll. For some reason Carroll freaked and started playing Capers ball, he went with White, because he thought he could just pound the clock out and it absolutely killed him. I really don't think Texas would of stopped Bush on 4th and 2, I'm a Texas fan and I can honestly say I don't think Texas would of stopped Bush on 4th and 2. When Texas saw Lendale back there they knew all they had to do was clog the middle, with Bush they wouldn't have been able to jam everybody up on the line to plug the middle, Bush could of made one cut and easily picked up about 6 yards or more towards the outide, which Texas left extremely undefended.

mexican_texan
04-19-2006, 07:53 PM
which Texas left extremely undefended.
Because Mack wasn't worried about White making a six yard cut

Grid
04-19-2006, 08:15 PM
Not to dispute, but it does seem a bit silly to say that I'm underestimating how good Reggie is because I'm not including yardage from a play on which he made very possibly the defining BONEHEADED play of the game. Maybe QBs should be given credit for yardage on intercepted passes while we are at it? :)

Because its two completely different scenarios. A closer comparison would be a QB that made a completion, but then the WR fumbled it when he got tackled. The QB did his job and made the play. Bush's boneheaded mistake was just that.. a mistake.. and its not something he has made a habit of doing. The point was that he broke a huge run there, and if he had just held onto the ball instead of trying to make that lateral.. he would have had better stats.

Bush didn't have a horrible game against Texas. But it was the best defense he faced last year and he ran for 83 yards and his receiving yards were nto stellar (the fumbled play was a pass reception). I think people wrongly assume that with more carries he would continue at the same yards per carry. The FACT that USC used him so infrenquently meant you could not focus your D on stopping him. You really had to deal with a balanced attack in situations where the odds heavily favor that the play will NOT be run to Bush. So while Texas spied Bush, the defense was more designed to deal with USC's amazing passing attack.

He would be used in a similar way here. he wouldnt be getting 30 carries per game. As for his stats against Texas, they have already been quoted here. He had a great game.. not an average one.



I actually like Reggie Bush. But I don't think anyone can easily conclude that he's a more talented runner than a between the tackles guy like DD (just like its not fair to conclude that VY is better than Carr.

You cant conclude that any rookie is better than ANY NFL talent. Bush may not be any better than Stacy Mack.. VY may not be any better than Ryan Leaf.. Williams may never be more than a 3rd stringer. Ya dont know. All you can do is make an educated guess, based on potential. Bush has the potential to be one of the best RBs in the NFL..if not THE best.

hollywood_texan
04-19-2006, 08:49 PM
No disrespect Caphorn, but when Bush faced the speedy D that Texas ran he had a whopping 6.3 ypc avg. a higher avg. than Lendale White had in the game that so many people were praising, until his horrible pro day.

Bush wasn't stopped by Texas, he was stopped by Pete Carroll. For some reason Carroll freaked and started playing Capers ball, he went with White, because he thought he could just pound the clock out and it absolutely killed him. I really don't think Texas would of stopped Bush on 4th and 2, I'm a Texas fan and I can honestly say I don't think Texas would of stopped Bush on 4th and 2. When Texas saw Lendale back there they knew all they had to do was clog the middle, with Bush they wouldn't have been able to jam everybody up on the line to plug the middle, Bush could of made one cut and easily picked up about 6 yards or more towards the outide, which Texas left extremely undefended.

Bush basically made all of his yards on three plays during the game, not including that little catch he made on the second to the last play of the game.

My point is, Bush gets his nice average from 3 touches of his 15. The other 12 he probably doesn't average that high.

As for the 4 and 2 call, that was 2006 Trojan football. They used that play all year in similiar situations and against Texas in that game. Actually, that same play yielded a TD on a fourth down play in the second half.

I live in LA, went to the game, and enjoyed listening Trojan Confidential the next day on 710. Carroll said the 4 and 2 was the right play, all the talk show guys agreed, and most of the fans that called in also agreed. Their point was that play worked 8 of 10 times for them in 2006 and that's how they were in 2006, smash mouth football.

As for Reggie making a cut and picking up 6 yards, you should watch the game again. Reggie was held to bascially zero yardage several times on the play you described. I own the DVD and have watched the game several times. It is so enjoyable, espicially since I went to both of Vince Young's Rose Bowl performances.

LA has some upside from time to time, not taking into account the weather of course.

Trenches
04-19-2006, 09:27 PM
this isnt meant to bash on Bush at all, but, lets remember that he got away with alot because of his speed. there is a BIG difference in the speed of defenders in the NCAA vs the NFL.

I'm not saying he cant run away from people, just that he wont have as big of an advantage as he had.

Carr Bombed
04-19-2006, 09:44 PM
Bush basically made all of his yards on three plays during the game, not including that little catch he made on the second to the last play of the game.

My point is, Bush gets his nice average from 3 touches of his 15. The other 12 he probably doesn't average that high.

As for the 4 and 2 call, that was 2006 Trojan football. They used that play all year in similiar situations and against Texas in that game. Actually, that same play yielded a TD on a fourth down play in the second half.

I live in LA, went to the game, and enjoyed listening Trojan Confidential the next day on 710. Carroll said the 4 and 2 was the right play, all the talk show guys agreed, and most of the fans that called in also agreed. Their point was that play worked 8 of 10 times for them in 2006 and that's how they were in 2006, smash mouth football.

As for Reggie making a cut and picking up 6 yards, you should watch the game again. Reggie was held to bascially zero yardage several times on the play you described. I own the DVD and have watched the game several times. It is so enjoyable, espicially since I went to both of Vince Young's Rose Bowl performances.

LA has some upside from time to time, not taking into account the weather of course.

You can slice it any way you want, Bush had more than 3 big runs, he had 3 0f 9 or more a 18 yarder and a 26 yard scamper down the sideline for a td.

As far as the Trojans being a smash mouth football team, that isn't true, they were a high scoring, fast moving team, not smash football.

Its true Reggie was held to zero yards a couple of times, but that has nothing to do with the play I described, both Reggie and White should of been on the field, in the plays where Reggie was stopped they had sideling to sideling defensive coverage, in the play where they denied White they stacked the line and drove straight through the middle plugging the run, that kind of defense would of not stopped Bush cutting to the outside, sorry, it wouldn't.

As far as you calling 4th and 2- the 2006 Trojans, thats not true either, its true they gambled in games, but they gambled with their best players, The Bush Push, the entire Fresno State game, ect. The fact that Bush wasn't put in position to make a difference was a complete brain fart on the coaching staff. Even if he didn't get the ball on that play, just him being on the feild would of forced Texas to draw more coverage to the outside.

I also have the game on tape, I've watched it over 10 times....I love that game.

Also you saying that most people agreed going for it on 4th and 2 is a little misleading, yes most people agreed that it was right to go for it on 4th and 2, but a overwhelming majority agreed it was a bad idea not to have Bush on the field.

Bush isn't percieved as a pounder, the reason why he will be taken with the first ovrl. pick is because he is a gamebreaker, he multiple big runs in that game both passing and receiving. Texas went into the game keyed on Bush, that was evident from the first play of the game and he still walked away with a 6.3 ypc avg. If it wasn't for his bonehead play, we might be celebrating a different champion right now.

Carr Bombed
04-19-2006, 09:48 PM
this isnt meant to bash on Bush at all, but, lets remember that he got away with alot because of his speed. there is a BIG difference in the speed of defenders in the NCAA vs the NFL.

That can be said for just about every blue chip prospect in this draft, especially VY.

trutxn
04-19-2006, 10:22 PM
Davis is "average" NFL talent - very good for a fourth round pick, but nothing special. While I agree that Bush has to prove himself at the next level, I would rather start a season with him in the backfield than DD - just my personal preference. However, next year when DD goes down to yet another injury and we have Morency "tearing it up," we very well might regret not taking Bush...

Thank you for opening the door! Dominack Davis (DD) has ran behind the same terrible line that David Carr has. DD has been consistant even with his injuries while Carr has regressed behind the same offensive line as DD. DD has been 50% of the Texan offense each of his years, with the same team as Carr. Not only is DD in the backfield but Verand Morency is a speedy and shify change of pace back that can flourish in Kubiak's system. With the addition of Kub's new staff, it sounds to me like the running game will be fine with the addition of a few linemen.

The proof above would suggest that Carr is just "average" talent. Not any more average than DD, right? The Texans need a proven leader to lead them into battle. Someone who they know will dedicate their heart and soul to the team and city. Everyone in the state of Texas wants it to happen. The Texans should be at Vince's front door letting him know that he is the future of the Texan Organization. Vince Young is the face of Houston, he has roots that run deep in Texas, as do many of the new coaches. With Kub's guidance, Vince could become an unstoppable offensive weapon. Both of them would end up with bronzed statues in front of Reliant and their names on a lot of trophies.

I have season tickets to the Texans' games, and I make every game, no matter how good or bad they play. The stadium may be sold out, but its only half full (better than half empty). The fan support is not in the stadium on Sundays. Sure, Reggie would bring in many fans, although Vince would fill the stadium, the practice bubble, the parking lots, and the rest of Reliant Park. Texans love cheering for other Texans, and many times the rest of the U.S. does not understand. Maybe thats why everyone in Texas is praising Vince, while the rest of the football world has been attacking every aspect of his life. People don't like the truth, and Vince is it!

Real Texan football fans have been astonished by Vince Young's abilities since he was a child in pop warner football. We have followed his career from Madison, to UT, and hopefully finishing with the Texans. Vince is not capable of failing on the football field, no matter how many people insult his abilities. He has been a leader and a winner at every level and he will continue to do so. Reggie is not a Texan savior, Vince is, no matter what team he ends up with.

I would trade 5 more years of Carr's career for 10 more years of Vince's career any day. Carr will get better, and can definatly succeed in the NFL, but the ponding he has taken thus far will definatly shorten his career by a year or two. Ask Troy Aikman. The Texans need to groom Vince for a year, have Carr prove his value, and then trade him for a very high pick next year. Unless they choose to get another pick this year. After a 2-14 season we must face that we are rebuilding. How long we want to wait and how great we want to get is the unanswered question until draft day.

Don't be mad world when the Texans become IN-VINCE-IBLE!

Texans_Chick
04-19-2006, 10:23 PM
this isnt meant to bash on Bush at all, but, lets remember that he got away with alot because of his speed. there is a BIG difference in the speed of defenders in the NCAA vs the NFL.

I'm not saying he cant run away from people, just that he wont have as big of an advantage as he had.

Jerome Mathis.

Small school prospect. Questionable coaching. Not much experience. Not the best hands. Injured for much of the season.

But when he played, in the NFL, for a non-good team, you dint want to be outta of your seat getting beer.

Speed can make a difference in the NFL. That kinda speed. Plus moves. Plus hands. Plus strength. Plus confidence. Let's just say that since it has seemed just about inevitable Reggie Bush will play for the Texans, I've been imagining what is possible. A "Mathis +++++" It could be crazy sick--and that is not an exaggeration.

Texans_Chick
04-19-2006, 10:28 PM
The Texans need to groom Vince for a year, have Carr prove his value, and then trade him for a very high pick next year. Unless they choose to get another pick this year. After a 2-14 season we must face that we are rebuilding. How long we want to wait and how great we want to get is the unanswered question until draft day.


The problem with your scenario is that if Carr proves his worth, then he should stay. If Carr is sucko, then he has no trade value.

I love VY and agree with many of the points about his ability that you make, but I am guessing that there would be a lot of people wanting to see RB play.

trutxn
04-19-2006, 10:42 PM
The problem with your scenario is that if Carr proves his worth, then he should stay. If Carr is sucko, then he has no trade value.

I love VY and agree with many of the points about his ability that you make, but I am guessing that there would be a lot of people wanting to see RB play.

Carr doesn't have as many playing years left, he is nearly in the middle of his career. Vince could prove his value over Carr, while Carr does enough to get us another great player to join Vince next year. Carr is not the leader that Vince is if given the same opportunity.

Reggie will be great as well, for about 6-7 years. I'll take Vince's 10.

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 10:48 PM
The proof above would suggest that Carr is just "average" talent. Not any more average than DD, right? The Texans need a proven leader to lead them into battle. Someone who they know will dedicate their heart and soul to the team and city. Everyone in the state of Texas wants it to happen. The Texans should be at Vince's front door letting him know that he is the future of the Texan Organization.

Carr has given to the city. And we don't turn our backs on Sam Houston because he was from Virginia and Tennesse. Right?

So the Vince shouldn't have anything to do with the way we should treat Carr.

Carr is our man.

So I will kick it your way too. If Mort says that David Carr is still like Carson Palmer and Peyton Manning... how long are you going to keep him in the saddle before you call for change?

You are going to have to at least give him one season to dispel the bad coaching creedo. So is it 1, 2, or 3 seasons? Why would you go over 1?

mexican_texan
04-19-2006, 10:51 PM
Carr doesn't have as many playing years left, he is nearly in the middle of his career. Vince could prove his value over Carr, while Carr does enough to get us another great player to join Vince next year. Carr is not the leader that Vince is if given the same opportunity.

Reggie will be great as well, for about 6-7 years. I'll take Vince's 10.
I would say Carr is 1/3 through his career.

trutxn
04-19-2006, 10:57 PM
Carr has given to the city. And we don't turn our backs on Sam Houston because he was from Virginia and Tennesse. Right?

So the Vince shouldn't have anything to do with the way we should treat Carr.

Carr is our man.

So I will kick it your way too. If Mort says that David Carr is still like Carson Palmer and Peyton Manning... how long are you going to keep him in the saddle before you call for change?

You are going to have to at least give him one season to dispel the bad coaching creedo. So is it 1, 2, or 3 seasons? Why would you go over 1?

As good as Carr can be, Vince can be better. I have watched and played football my entire life. What some sports broadcaster says is not going to change my opinion. Bottom line is Vince's career will overshadow Davids when both of their careers are over. Vince is just better, it is hard for people to face that.

Reggie will be great as well, but the QB position is the most important position on the field. Reggie will touch the ball 10-15 times a game, Vince will touch it every single play. The odds are better with Vince.

trutxn
04-19-2006, 10:59 PM
I would say Carr is 1/3 through his career.

I'd say Vince is just starting!

Trap_Star
04-19-2006, 10:59 PM
As good as Carr can be, Vince can be better. I have watched and played football my entire life. What some sports broadcaster says is not going to change my opinion. Bottom line is Vince's career will overshadow Davids when both of their careers are over. Vince is just better, it is hard for people to face that.

Reggie will be great as well, but the QB position is the most important position on the field. Reggie will touch the ball 10-15 times a game, Vince will touch it every single play. The odds are better with Vince.

Does somebody have a man-crush on Vince???:whistle: :jk:

trutxn
04-19-2006, 11:04 PM
Carr has given to the city. And we don't turn our backs on Sam Houston because he was from Virginia and Tennesse. Right?


It doesn't matter, neither one played Texas football. No disrespect to Sam, because he did a lot for TX. But if you grew up in Texas and played the game, you know what I mean.

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 11:06 PM
As good as Carr can be, Vince can be better. I have watched and played football my entire life. What some sports broadcaster says is not going to change my opinion. Bottom line is Vince's career will overshadow Davids when both of their careers are over. Vince is just better, it is hard for people to face that.

I don't pick bones with you at all about those observations...

but we do have Carr. If you are signing the checks, what are you going to say to Carr? I mean if you are there in the stands and Carr is walking by... how are you going to justify in your mind telling him to beat it?

trutxn
04-19-2006, 11:08 PM
Does somebody have a man-crush on Vince???:whistle: :jk:



Just a true Texan as you can see, I'm not a sell out, I just support people from my state. And if an explanation is needed you wouldn't understand.

Wharton
04-19-2006, 11:10 PM
It's funny, as I've spoken to these proven talent evaluators in the league, the consensus among them is that there have been only three "true" top-pick quarterback talents since 1998 - Peyton Manning, David Carr and Carson Palmer. Carr was mentioned by almost all of them. They had other issues on offense. This is the most rediculous statement I've heard in a long time. Just because Carr was a consensus "true" top-pick doesn't mean squat now that he has been in the league for four years. The proof is in the play, and frankly, Carr stunk up the joint last year. I just hope the front office knows what its doing because I have my doubts.

The Broncos' system that Kubiak has brought to the Texans has never called for stud O-linemen. The running game offers the protection; also, the talent on hand is better than most people think.Another rediculous statement. The Broncos' system calls for a different type of o-lineman. Just because they aren't 350 lbs, doesn't mean they're not studs. Also, the running game doesn't offer protection to the passing game. The Texans actually had a decent run game last year, but it didn't offer any protection to our passing attack. Every team had our number last year by just sending a run blitz covering all the gaps. Our offense line was so porous on pass protection; it effectively shut down our passing game.

"the talent on hand is better then most people think" Must have been an Acid flashback!

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 11:16 PM
It doesn't matter, neither one played Texas football. No disrespect to Sam, because he did a lot for TX. But if you grew up in Texas and played the game, you know what I mean.

I did. You won't be getting any mouth from me on that subject.

But you know... we had kids move in from Louisiana and California and places like that growing up. We didn't kick them off the team for how they were born either. I mean if somebody showed up and could play... it was on.

Hell in Houston half the time my team was made up of Vietnamese and Korean dudes!

But if they cried too much or couldn't play... they had to go find something else to do.

Now certainly if a David Carr was your QB, you aren't going to like the idea of the mayor's son taking his role... just because he is the mayor's son.

Trap_Star
04-19-2006, 11:16 PM
Just a true Texan as you can see, I'm not a sell out, I just support people from my state. And if an explanation is needed you wouldn't understand.

:shocked Who's a sell out....:confused:

trutxn
04-19-2006, 11:18 PM
I don't pick bones with you at all about those observations...

but we do have Carr. If you are signing the checks, what are you going to say to Carr? I mean if you are there in the stands and Carr is walking by... how are you going to justify in your mind telling him to beat it?



Carr has been great for Houston, but he hasn't provided, he has regressed. I know he hasn't had a great supporting cast, but he had enough to do more. I was at the games last year, it looked like he gave up at times. With Kubiaks coaching Carr will be good, and Carr knows this. He will benefit from the learning experience alone. Then they can tell him that they'll see him when he comes back to town.

trutxn
04-19-2006, 11:21 PM
I did. You won't be getting any mouth from me on that subject.

But you know... we had kids move in from Louisiana and California and places like that growing up. We didn't kick them off the team for how they were born either. I mean if somebody showed up and could play... it was on.

Hell in Houston half the time my team was made up of Vietnamese and Korean dudes!

But if they cried too much or couldn't play... they had to go find something else to do.

Now certainly if a David Carr was your QB, you aren't going to like the idea of the mayor's son taking his role... just because he is the mayor's son.

Vietnamese dudes, Korean dudes, and the mayor's son are not Vince.

Roughnecks
04-19-2006, 11:24 PM
Lets face it VY is good but as far as saying he will be all that next year come on. You can sit hear and say RB was good in college because the speed is much slower than in the NFL the same can be said about VY the o-line the coaches and schemes from last year and the new every thing this year VY would have trouble getting away. RB is faster than VY and would get a head start VY would drop back than would have to run do you really think he is going to break a 60 yard run no and please give DC some credit the kid has taking a beating since we sign him and at times would take a hit to get the first down, is he great no not yet but I see him doing great things down the road. Are we a playoff team next year I do not think so and yes I bleed steel blue but I see improvement even with our schedule and next year when everybody has a year of the new Off. and Def. we will be a handful we have good coaches now new Def., a great off season and a really good draft class coming up we have a lot of upside coming but do not be ready to run DC out of town if we do not make it to playoff next year.

Carr Bombed
04-19-2006, 11:24 PM
It doesn't matter, neither one played Texas football. No disrespect to Sam, because he did a lot for TX. But if you grew up in Texas and played the game, you know what I mean.

What the heck are you talking about. Football is a game played all over America, not just Texas. Most of the greatest players that played the game have absolutely nothing to do with Texas and if you really want to use "Football" states as your argument, California is pumping out the same level of product, as is Florida.

Its these kinda statements that make outsiders think we are dumb hicks. "We can't take him or he can't play on our team, uh because, He don't play Texas' ball". :rolleyes:

Runner
04-19-2006, 11:28 PM
What the heck are you talking about. Football is a game played all over America, not just Texas. Most of the greatest players that played the game have absolutely nothing to do with Texas and if you really want to use "Football" states as your argument, California is pumping out the same level of product, as is Florida.

Its these kinda statements that make outsiders think we are dumb hicks. "We can't take him or he can't play on our team, uh because, He don't play Texas' ball". :rolleyes:

Not to mention QB country is Western PA/OH.

trutxn
04-19-2006, 11:28 PM
What the heck are you talking about. Football is a game played all over America, not just Texas. Most of the greatest players that played the game have absolutely nothing to do with Texas and if you really want to use "Football" states as your argument, California is pumping out the same level of product, as is Florida.

Its these kinda statements that make outsiders think we are dumb hicks. "We can't take him or he can't play on our team, uh because, He don't play Texas' ball". :rolleyes:

You show me a 24 hour Super Wal-Mart outside of Texas that will shutdown for a highschool football game.

Enough said.

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 11:29 PM
mmm I don't know. I am looking over his stats and it looks like he got into trouble the third season.

Kitna I would kick out. I don't see how he compares to Carr. He has been fighting uphill the whole way. Even when he was winning, he had more people saying he's not worth it to the ones that said he was. Plus I don't believe anybody ever claimed him to be a franchise QB. ( at best a good QB )

Looks like Plummer was a second rounder

Stat wise you're right....... neither were really amazing. Watching them, though was totally different. They both looked like they were ready to break out at anytime. Using their legs, and their arms making plays, carrying their team.....

You'd watch them, and you'd say, "man if they ever get this kid some help" no one was talking about their offensive line. They had the ability to get themselves out of trouble, keep plays alive, and make the play down the field.

Neither were/are however strong leaders.a
Because its two completely different scenarios. A closer comparison would be a QB that made a completion, but then the WR fumbled it when he got tackled. The QB did his job and made the play. Bush's boneheaded mistake was just that.. a mistake.. and its not something he has made a habit of doing. The point was that he broke a huge run there, and if he had just held onto the ball instead of trying to make that lateral.. he would have had better stats.


He was on the one...... why wouldn't he just put his head down, and drive through?? he had 80 yards of momentum built up....

I don't talk much about that play........ it's not the ill advised lateral, Vince did the same thing......... got away with one. But what running back wouldn't push through 1 guy...... 2.... maybe even three, from the one??

Carr has given to the city. And we don't turn our backs on Sam Houston because he was from Virginia and Tennesse. Right?

Carr is our man.


Signing Vince Young, or Reggie Bush, means we've got to get ready to say good bye to either Carr or DD. One of the other is going to go. Yeah, you can play DD & Reggie on the same down, but that wont' happen very long. It will be one or the other.

If either of these two guys earned their keep, it's DD.

trutxn
04-19-2006, 11:32 PM
Not to mention QB country is Western PA/OH.

Not any more. I do agree that CA and FL are good football states. But football is like religion in Texas.

kbourda
04-19-2006, 11:35 PM
For once i'd like to see Mr. Bush play where he is the featured back, period. And not sharing time. I hope we all get a chance to see that.

Carr Bombed
04-19-2006, 11:35 PM
You show me a 24 hour Super Wal-Mart outside of Texas that will shutdown for a highschool football game.

Enough said.

Wow thats a great argument, lets take a player, because his hometown Walmart shuts down on friday nights. What exactly does that have to do with the heart and drive in a football player that lives and plays outside of Texas. There are kids all across America that train, sweet, and bleed just as much as any kid inside this state.

To think that a prospect is subpar just because where he grew up is extremely close minded and ignorant.

This isn't High School Football, its the NFL

Mr. White
04-19-2006, 11:37 PM
Man...just to think of all the time I've spent pimping VY while refuting the "Homer argument."....."naw man, it ain't where he's from, it's the wins."

"Texas ball"... I guess it IS where he's from.

kbourda
04-19-2006, 11:37 PM
That is were you are wrong. Way wrong. What Carr did with that Fresno team will never be forgoten, he is a King in Fresno and Bakersfield, even the whole state of California.

Carr played only 2 years, compare his 2 year stats to some guys that played 4 years or even compare just 2 years Carr kills.

HEY Trap_Star, this is the definition of a man-crush! :)

kbourda
04-19-2006, 11:41 PM
For once i'd like to see Mr. Young play a game where he plays under center, and not playing in an option based offense, and playing in an NFL style offense and not scrambling half the time. I hope we all get a chance to see that.

We all will. And you'll love it.

TwinSisters
04-19-2006, 11:41 PM
of upside coming but do not be ready to run DC out of town if we do not make it to playoff next year.

What does he have to do to not be run out of town? Or deserve to be run out of town?

I am saying he hasn't done anything yet to deserve it ( since we blame it all on the coaching ). If you have a guy telling you to do all the wrong things and you do all the wrong things... well then how can you say the guy is bad?

tulexan
04-19-2006, 11:45 PM
I must have missed Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Dan Marino, Lawrence Taylor... being from Texas

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 11:45 PM
mmm I don't know. I am looking over his stats and it looks like he got into trouble the third season.

Kitna I would kick out. I don't see how he compares to Carr. He has been fighting uphill the whole way. Even when he was winning, he had more people saying he's not worth it to the ones that said he was. Plus I don't believe anybody ever claimed him to be a franchise QB. ( at best a good QB )

Looks like Plummer was a second rounder

Stat wise you're right....... neither were really amazing. Watching them, though was totally different. They both looked like they were ready to break out at anytime. Using their legs, and their arms making plays, carrying their team.....

You'd watch them, and you'd say, "man if they ever get this kid some help" no one was talking about their offensive line. They had the ability to get themselves out of trouble, keep plays alive, and make the play down the field.

Neither were/are however strong leaders.a
Because its two completely different scenarios. A closer comparison would be a QB that made a completion, but then the WR fumbled it when he got tackled. The QB did his job and made the play. Bush's boneheaded mistake was just that.. a mistake.. and its not something he has made a habit of doing. The point was that he broke a huge run there, and if he had just held onto the ball instead of trying to make that lateral.. he would have had better stats.


He was on the one...... why wouldn't he just put his head down, and drive through?? he had 80 yards of momentum built up....

I don't talk much about that play........ it's not the ill advised lateral, Vince did the same thing......... got away with one. But what running back wouldn't push through 1 guy...... 2.... maybe even three, from the one??

Carr has given to the city. And we don't turn our backs on Sam Houston because he was from Virginia and Tennesse. Right?

Carr is our man.


Signing Vince Young, or Reggie Bush, means we've got to get ready to say good bye to either Carr or DD. One of the other is going to go. Yeah, you can play DD & Reggie on the same down, but that wont' happen very long. It will be one or the other.

If either of these two guys earned their keep, it's DD.

kbourda
04-19-2006, 11:45 PM
What does he have to do to not be run out of town? Or deserve to be run out of town?

I am saying he hasn't done anything yet to deserve it ( since we blame it all on the coaching ). If you have a guy telling you to do all the wrong things and you do all the wrong things... well then how can you say the guy is bad?

Honestly, I believe Carr is a lifetime QB here. Good or bad. I really hope he does well next year considering the commitment the franchise made to him. I have to see it on the field. You can tell me for so long about this and that. Show me. That's all i'm saying.

kbourda
04-19-2006, 11:47 PM
Man...just to think of all the time I've spent pimping VY while refuting the "Homer argument."....."naw man, it ain't where he's from, it's the wins."

"Texas ball"... I guess it IS where he's from.

To quote my legendary hip-hop poet..........."It ain't where you're from, It's where you at!"

Roughnecks
04-19-2006, 11:48 PM
Hey I like VY and I am a Aggies fan but he is not going to be a Texan being from Houston on knowing what that Oiler did to us ( @#$%*&^ Bud Adams) he should try to be a Oiler oops I mean a Titian and just suck it up for him a little pay back for the folks back home. JK:wacko: I hope he makes it were ever he goes. LETS BRING BACK THE HOUSE OF PAIN DAYS PLEASE!!!!!

trutxn
04-19-2006, 11:55 PM
Wow thats a great argument, lets take a player, because his hometown Walmart shuts down on friday nights. What exactly does that have to do with the heart and drive in a football player that lives and plays outside of Texas. There are kids all across America that train, sweet, and bleed just as much as any kid inside this state.

To think that a prospect is subpar just because where he grew up is extremely close minded and ignorant.

This isn't High School Football, its the NFL

You obviously are not from Texas! True there are football players all over the world dedicated to the game, no doubt. But the football fans in Texas are different, they love the game more than anything. They will drive thousands of miles to watch a game, ask USC if they expected to see that much burnt orange in their home town. It would be the same for any Texas college, not only UT.

Speaking of colleges, every college in the nation comes to Texas looking for players. Sure we look everywhere, but a majority of the colleges in Texas have all Texas players. It is not to say that we always have the best players, we just have a lot more of them on a consistent basis.

kbourda
04-19-2006, 11:55 PM
Signing Vince Young, or Reggie Bush, means we've got to get ready to say good bye to either Carr or DD. One of the other is going to go. Yeah, you can play DD & Reggie on the same down, but that wont' happen very long. It will be one or the other.

If either of these two guys earned their keep, it's DD.


Since VY won't be the pick and Bush will most that likely be, DD has to go. I can't see a RB getting QB money splitting time with a host of players. I respect all the players and the commitment that they have shown to the city but this makes no sense whatsoever (signing a RB @ QB money). Do I know that's the ballpark figure he wants? No. But why should he ask for less? Pay Bush and trade Davis for a 3rd round pick.

Roughnecks
04-19-2006, 11:58 PM
Since VY won't be the pick and Bush will most that likely be, DD has to go. I can't see a RB getting QB money splitting time with a host of players. I respect all the players and the commitment that they have shown to the city but this makes no sense whatsoever (signing a RB @ QB money). Do I know that's the ballpark figure he wants? No. But why should he ask for less? Pay Bush and trade Davis for a 3rd round pick.



Come on we could at lease get number 2 don't you think if not this year but next.

TwinSisters
04-20-2006, 12:01 AM
Vietnamese dudes, Korean dudes, and the mayor's son are not Vince.

In the context that we are talking about they are.

You have guys playing on your team already ( not born in your city ). You don't move them down to second string or kick them off the team because the mayor's son showed up.
That's what Vincent Young is in the context of what we are talking about. A guy that is supposed to be leading us, without ever playing down for us, solely because he was born in the city.

Understand I am not dishing on Young. What I want see is how you are going to tell Carr he is not wanted. How you would justify it.

I take it that you believe David Carr to be not as good as what we pay him to be and that is enough to eject him. Your reason is that he failed to do anything spectacular in the past four years.

Now on the off-hand chance that we do not draft Vince... Is David Carr still not worth it for us? Do we need to start shopping for a new leader? When would you start? mid season? after the season? After two seasons??
( under this scenario Vince is flying new colors and not going be available for a long time, so we would have to rule out getting him )

Roughnecks
04-20-2006, 12:01 AM
I say fight for a 2nd rounder if no one will bite and all else fails take the 3rd but at lease fight for a 2nd.

Carr Bombed
04-20-2006, 12:09 AM
You obviously are not from Texas!

Actually I'm a 4th generation Texan, I was born and raised right there in Houston, I'm just not close minded or under some kind of delusion that there aren't great players outside of Texas.

True there are football players all over the world dedicated to the game, no doubt. But the football fans in Texas are different, they love the game more than anything. They will drive thousands of miles to watch a game, ask USC if they expected to see that much burnt orange in their home town. It would be the same for any Texas college, not only UT.

What in the world does this have to do with anything, when did we decide we were drafting the "Texas football fan", Im sorry, but if Charlie starts drafting Fans, I'm done.

Speaking of colleges, every college in the nation comes to Texas looking for players. Sure we look everywhere, but a majority of the colleges in Texas have all Texas players. It is not to say that we always have the best players, we just have a lot more of them on a consistent basis.

Florida was just recognized as having the best recruiting class this year and almost all their recruits came from in state.

USC was just back to back champions and lost the bid for their third and their program was almost solely built on in-state products.

Texas just like every other great football state is able to grow their own recruits and field a power house with them, but like I've stated above, they aren't alone. That is the advantage every football state has.

Just because football players don't play in front of huge crowds on friday nights doesn't mean they are any less of football players. Football is nation wide.

hollywood_texan
04-20-2006, 12:33 AM
You can slice it any way you want, Bush had more than 3 big runs, he had 3 0f 9 or more a 18 yarder and a 26 yard scamper down the sideline for a td.

As far as the Trojans being a smash mouth football team, that isn't true, they were a high scoring, fast moving team, not smash football.

Its true Reggie was held to zero yards a couple of times, but that has nothing to do with the play I described, both Reggie and White should of been on the field, in the plays where Reggie was stopped they had sideling to sideling defensive coverage, in the play where they denied White they stacked the line and drove straight through the middle plugging the run, that kind of defense would of not stopped Bush cutting to the outside, sorry, it wouldn't.

As far as you calling 4th and 2- the 2006 Trojans, thats not true either, its true they gambled in games, but they gambled with their best players, The Bush Push, the entire Fresno State game, ect. The fact that Bush wasn't put in position to make a difference was a complete brain fart on the coaching staff. Even if he didn't get the ball on that play, just him being on the feild would of forced Texas to draw more coverage to the outside.

I also have the game on tape, I've watched it over 10 times....I love that game.

Also you saying that most people agreed going for it on 4th and 2 is a little misleading, yes most people agreed that it was right to go for it on 4th and 2, but a overwhelming majority agreed it was a bad idea not to have Bush on the field.

Bush isn't percieved as a pounder, the reason why he will be taken with the first ovrl. pick is because he is a gamebreaker, he multiple big runs in that game both passing and receiving. Texas went into the game keyed on Bush, that was evident from the first play of the game and he still walked away with a 6.3 ypc avg. If it wasn't for his bonehead play, we might be celebrating a different champion right now.

Carroll said on Trojan Confidential they did play smash mouth football all year. That play that you say was a bonehead play, worked everytime that night.

Most people in LA agreed with the call that I talk to. Their point to me is that Texas got lucking in stopping it because it was such a high percentage play for them.

That is what I heard on the radio in Carroll's interview and what I discussed with Trojan fans. Most of them would disagree with you.

Take it for what it's worth.

It really doesn't matter.

The Horns won and I was there.

If the Texans want to draft Bush, I really don't care. I am getting tired of talking about that.

hollywood_texan
04-20-2006, 12:48 AM
You obviously are not from Texas! True there are football players all over the world dedicated to the game, no doubt. But the football fans in Texas are different, they love the game more than anything. They will drive thousands of miles to watch a game, ask USC if they expected to see that much burnt orange in their home town. It would be the same for any Texas college, not only UT.

Speaking of colleges, every college in the nation comes to Texas looking for players. Sure we look everywhere, but a majority of the colleges in Texas have all Texas players. It is not to say that we always have the best players, we just have a lot more of them on a consistent basis.

I was at the game, I think they were more surprised about all the beer drinking. We tore that place up.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3060/hell3eb.jpg

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9479/rosebowl9ht.jpg

DocBar
04-20-2006, 01:37 AM
IMO Carr will have his best year(but short of Pro Bowl). Kubes is adaptable and plays to his team's strengths. Carr will bootleg more and stop running out of bounds for a loss AND sack. I think the O-line will surprise us. From most of what I've read from the "experts", coaching was our main problem. Capers was/is more comfortable with proven talent and veterans (see Panthers 2nd year and subsequent meltdown due to salary cap issues) than with evaluating talent and implementing systems to maximize the talent available. Davis IS a talented back but simply isn't durable enough. Bush will make this offense SCARY good. Imagine Bush AND DD in the same backfild with AJ, Moulds and Armstrong/Mathis/Walters at receiver. Poses some problems. Add to that a true tight end that might block OR receive(they actually CAN do that) on any given play and you have a world of opportunity on the O side of the ball. I agree with the post that said Carr is a gambler. Give him the freedom to improvise some and he can shine. He has a lot of talent. Kubes will let it show with his tutoring and gameplanning. Watch some films of Carr. He is pretty accurate throwing on the run(he's rushed for like 25,000 yds. before being sacked...lol... should be a category for that!!!) and can find open receivers or scramble for decent yardage. Just my :twocents:

dirty steve
04-20-2006, 01:44 AM
No, that was Carr. He called his plays at the line for the first half and scored 24 points. In the 2nd half Pendry took over to protect the lead and the rest is history.

that was the Arizona game, right?

infantrycak
04-20-2006, 01:53 AM
Not any more. I do agree that CA and FL are good football states. But football is like religion in Texas.

And out of that we have ... Drew Brees, Chris Simms and Vince Young as potential QB's from Texas next year starting? May be missing some but we sure aren't dominating as you state.

MikeMc
04-20-2006, 01:56 AM
QB is but one position on a football team. Kevin Kolb will be starting in the NFL before long!

Malloy
04-20-2006, 04:55 AM
You show me a 24 hour Super Wal-Mart outside of Texas that will shutdown for a highschool football game.

Enough said.

Well, then it's not really a 24h joint is it?

dalemurphy
04-20-2006, 08:59 AM
Maybe I'm misreading your post, but it seemed that Mort was saying that Carr was a talented QB (not just a guy who has the tools) and that his talent - even in light of the Texans poor team performance - is still viewed as worthy of a No. 1 draft pick. He's not just saying he has tools to succeed, but might not succeed. He's saying Carr is an elite QB talent that you pay a ton of money for to play the position.


Well, if you are saying that a player has talent and that's the end of your statement then you are certainly not asserting that he will live up to that talent. The context of Mort's conversation wasn't a defense for David Carr. He was simply outlining how few college QBs the past few years have been graded out by NFL people to be worthy of the #1 overall pick. He is talking about the assessment made 4 years ago- not commenting on the player he is now or will neccessarily become. Otherwise, shouldn't Tom Brady be in that group he listed?

Big B Texan Fan
04-20-2006, 09:36 AM
This question was asked to him during his chat this morning and the answer was quite suprising as to how high david carr is regarded...
2 out of 3 isn't bad:stirpot:

U4ikrob
04-20-2006, 11:49 AM
It was against Arizona. Carr had a total of 150 yards passing and zero TD's for the game. He audibled to the offtackle run just about every play in that half. It was by no means an All Pro performance... just another example of evisionist history.


Well your facts are right allthough your slant seems a bit partial. Here are a few articles that might freshen some memories about what happened that day against Arizona.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3533916.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/3533856.html
http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&fr=slv1-&p=David+Carr+calls+his+own+plays&u=www.nfl.com/news/story/9118613&w=david+carr+calls+own+plays&d=U7uPpxbfMnbq&icp=1&.intl=us

Heres an excerpt to think on

"Carr was 16-of-20 for 93 yards in the first half, and after Pendry took over the play calling in the second half, the QB was 6-of-13 for 57 yards.

"In the second half, we didn't execute as well," Pendry said. "We didn't convert enough on third down, but the defense controlled the game, and that was enough."

I'm not a Carr Lover or Hater - I just want the team to do well myself - But IMO - The difference shown in the game overall was how Carr was efficient and played a solid first half of offense and helped the team score 24 points - What more is a good QB supposed to do? He showed his ability to play the position well when given the reigns - to recognize what the Defense was giving and capitalizing on it - He ran the offense and held onto the ball and didnt turn it over for near 10 minutes in the second quarter alone while driving for another score - Thats on just one drive - IMO It's not just his ability to throw the TD that made his playcalling good on that day but his overall effectiveness at the position. I got the impression you thought his effort was lackluster and not special at all based on your comments and I would totally disagree with that PoV.

El Tejano
04-20-2006, 12:25 PM
The other thing was that when Mathis lined up wide Carr was able to throw 50 yard bombs and totally had a wonderful first half against the Rams but defense killed us.

the wonger need food
04-20-2006, 01:00 PM
I got the impression you thought his effort was lackluster and not special at all based on your comments and I would totally disagree with that PoV.

I was at the stadium and watched him closely the entire game. Believe me, there was nothing "special" about his performance. The offense consisted of Off tackle left (with an occassional off tackle right) and a bunch of hitch passes.

I guess by Carr's standards throwing for almost 100 yards in a half is considered "special". Any time there is a chance to go over 200 yards it's a special day for Dave.

hollywood_texan
04-20-2006, 01:19 PM
The other thing was that when Mathis lined up wide Carr was able to throw 50 yard bombs and totally had a wonderful first half against the Rams but defense killed us.

St. Louis had one of the worst defenses last year. I am not sure you want to use that defense as a measuring stick for our offense.

thunderkyss
04-20-2006, 01:26 PM
Well your facts are right allthough your slant seems a bit partial. Here are a few articles that might freshen some memories about what happened that day against Arizona.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3533916.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/3533856.html
http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&fr=slv1-&p=David+Carr+calls+his+own+plays&u=www.nfl.com/news/story/9118613&w=david+carr+calls+own+plays&d=U7uPpxbfMnbq&icp=1&.intl=us

Heres an excerpt to think on

"Carr was 16-of-20 for 93 yards in the first half, and after Pendry took over the play calling in the second half, the QB was 6-of-13 for 57 yards.

"In the second half, we didn't execute as well," Pendry said. "We didn't convert enough on third down, but the defense controlled the game, and that was enough."

I'm not a Carr Lover or Hater - I just want the team to do well myself - But IMO - The difference shown in the game overall was how Carr was efficient and played a solid first half of offense and helped the team score 24 points - What more is a good QB supposed to do? He showed his ability to play the position well when given the reigns - to recognize what the Defense was giving and capitalizing on it - He ran the offense and held onto the ball and didnt turn it over for near 10 minutes in the second quarter alone while driving for another score - Thats on just one drive - IMO It's not just his ability to throw the TD that made his playcalling good on that day but his overall effectiveness at the position. I got the impression you thought his effort was lackluster and not special at all based on your comments and I would totally disagree with that PoV.

So then it is a fact that Pendry called the whole St Louis Game.

tsip
04-20-2006, 01:30 PM
5.8 ypc???!!!...that's like a lateral...let's hope we see some passes 'down' the field this year! 5.8ypc, WOW!

U4ikrob
04-20-2006, 01:59 PM
I was at the stadium and watched him closely the entire game. Believe me, there was nothing "special" about his performance. The offense consisted of Off tackle left (with an occassional off tackle right) and a bunch of hitch passes.

I guess by Carr's standards throwing for almost 100 yards in a half is considered "special". Any time there is a chance to go over 200 yards it's a special day for Dave.

He threw close to 100 yards - no pics 80% completions on 20 passes and the team scored 24 points and you still say it was nothing special??? :confused:
For the record I watched the game on TV - What I saw was an example of how a guy can play his positon pretty well and make an offense work. More to the point is that the team scored 24 points in a half - but only 6 more under the coaches playcalling - To me it showed that DC had talent and can make plays when given a chance. The coaching in the second half reflected it alot - the playcalling was scaled down tremendousely and par for the course Palmer/Capers tried to play the secodn half "Not to lose - instead of Playing to win". Honestly I'm not sure what your gripe is Wonger - allthough I would hazard a guess it comes from VY man-love/Carr-hater disease. :rolleyes: :sarcasm:

and also for the record - I havent sent you hate mail or bad rep just because were disagreeing like some other folks do.

jmlockett
04-20-2006, 02:52 PM
well I be, so now what do we do? I mean here we are with a new system, and coaches and too numerous other personel. Do we give the guy (Carr) some more time and say something like, Well we'll let him slide another year if he screws up or has a bad year for what ever reason. I hate to say it but yes. 2006 and 2007 are the years that will make or break Carr. I sincerely hope that we are able to give him a chance to show us what he can do. Hell I would like to come home and turn the DVR on and look forward to watching our team play. Instead of thinking about drinking a few to kill the pain of seeing us play and I don't even drink.

Porky
04-20-2006, 06:58 PM
I was at the Arizona game. It's the only Texans game I have ever been too. I was sitting about 10 rows back behind the Texans bench so had a great seat. Carr was nothing special. Trust me. First half, second half, halftime, during timeouts, in the shower, the parking lot, or anywhere else. If that is anyone's idea of "special" then I feel really sorry for ya. And yes, I know how many points were scored. I was there. :redtowel:

the wonger need food
04-20-2006, 07:27 PM
He threw close to 100 yards - no pics 80% completions on 20 passes and the team scored 24 points and you still say it was nothing special??? :confused:
For the record I watched the game on TV - What I saw was an example of how a guy can play his positon pretty well and make an offense work. More to the point is that the team scored 24 points in a half - but only 6 more under the coaches playcalling - To me it showed that DC had talent and can make plays when given a chance. The coaching in the second half reflected it alot - the playcalling was scaled down tremendousely and par for the course Palmer/Capers tried to play the secodn half "Not to lose - instead of Playing to win". Honestly I'm not sure what your gripe is Wonger - allthough I would hazard a guess it comes from VY man-love/Carr-hater disease. :rolleyes: :sarcasm:

and also for the record - I havent sent you hate mail or bad rep just because were disagreeing like some other folks do.

Gee... thanks. I just can't get enough hate mail or bad rep points for stating that Carr is a sub-par NFL quarterback.

Actually, Palmer was fired about 3 months before the Arizona game.

If handing off to a running back and throwing a bunch of hitch passes for 100 whole yards and zero touchdowns is your idea of a "special" performance...

dalemurphy
04-20-2006, 07:43 PM
If handing off to a running back and throwing a bunch of hitch passes for 100 whole yards and zero touchdowns is your idea of a "special" performance...


Well, hand offs and hitches are all Pendry's playbook consisted of. In 2004 David Carr had the highest completion percentage of deep balls in the NFL. Recall the Minnesota game? I don't remember nothing but handoffs and hooks in that one.

the wonger need food
04-20-2006, 08:17 PM
Well, hand offs and hitches are all Pendry's playbook consisted of. In 2004 David Carr had the highest completion percentage of deep balls in the NFL. Recall the Minnesota game? I don't remember nothing but handoffs and hooks in that one.

Carr has one above average half his entire career and the apologists chomp at the bit to site it... over and over again...

tsip
04-20-2006, 08:20 PM
"In 2004 David Carr had the highest completion percentage of deep balls in the NFL"

Thats not saying much if he threw the fewest--got a link/source?

the wonger need food
04-20-2006, 08:25 PM
"In 2004 David Carr had the highest completion percentage of deep balls in the NFL"

Thats not saying much if he threw the fewest--got a link/source?

It's all fantasy in Davie Carr Super Happy Funland.

Frank_The_Tank
04-20-2006, 10:17 PM
You know a guys stinks when fans consider his most prolific day was when he threw for 100 yrds in the first half.... Oh and if you are going to claim Carr as leading in any category for NFL QB's you better have a link to back that up because saying saying David Carr leads the NFL in completing Deep Balls makes me think your experience with Madden 2006 has gone to the point off a loss from reality, maybe you should seek psychological help.

OzzO
04-20-2006, 10:36 PM
Special or not... whoopty. I did enjoy the game alot more when it was that half that Carr apparently called the plays. Whether it was deep passes, handoffs, laterals, granny shots... whatever - I enjoyed it because then the team seemed to move down the field as a cohesive unit on the same page and was moving pretty easily.

That's what I'm looking for this year. The team to be on the same page, dominating teams they should, playing quality against better teams, quality coaching, and a loud home field advantage.

Ibar_Harry
04-20-2006, 11:46 PM
Special or not... whoopty. I did enjoy the game alot more when it was that half that Carr apparently called the plays. Whether it was deep passes, handoffs, laterals, granny shots... whatever - I enjoyed it because then the team seemed to move down the field as a cohesive unit on the same page and was moving pretty easily.

That's what I'm looking for this year. The team to be on the same page, dominating teams they should, playing quality against better teams, quality coaching, and a loud home field advantage.

Yes, the press, team members and others were commenting how they felt they were a part of it and David was reacting to the input he was receiving from his players coming back to the huddle. Yep, it was a team and they moved the ball. They reacted to what the other team was doing defensively. I want a QB calling the play not the coach, particularly given who was calling them in the past. I'm just old fashioned about that.

TexanSam
04-21-2006, 12:52 AM
I don't care if David Carr is special or not. He doesn't have to be an All-Pro year after year. He doesn't even have to be a Pro Bowler year after year. But to say David Carr sucks is hogwash. He improved year to year in our first 3 seasons. Almost everyone on our team took a step back last season. Domanick Davis had a worse season that one the before. Andre Johnson had an even worse year than his rookie season. Our offensive line..well it's hard to tell if they got worse because they've been so crappy every single year. Our defense was one of the worst in the NFL. It's a team game. David Carr is not solely to blame on last year's nightmare of a season. Look at who David Carr had around him. Mark Breuner and Marcellus Rivers at tight end. Oooo, that makes NFL defenses shiver. Corey Bradford and Jabar Gaffney to take pressure off of Andre Johnson. You could join Bradford and Gaffney's talent together, and they still won't be a #2 reciever. We had Victor Riley start half of our games at tackle last season. Victory Riley is the Matt Stevens of our offense. Do you remember how bad Matt Stevens was? Riley wasn't much better. David Carr can be a good QB for us and I'll be happy. Brad Johnson is a good QB. They won a Super Bowl in Tampa with them. Trent Dilfer and Kerry Collins both had teams that went to the Super Bowl. I think David Carr will turn into a very, very good QB, but you can win with a merely "good" QB on your team.

Runner
04-21-2006, 01:09 AM
...Almost everyone on our team took a step back last season...

Which is the reason I don't give last season much weight when evaluating our roster players. Everything was a mess.

michaelm
04-21-2006, 02:18 AM
Vietnamese dudes, Korean dudes, and the mayor's son are not Vince.


Yes, we all get the fact that you love VY.
I'm not usually bored enough to go through other people's past posts, but I did go through yours.
You have 27 total posts at this time, and at least 18 of them mention VY (I wouldn't be surprised if I missed one or two additional ones).
I admire your loyalty, but it is hard to think that you might have any unbiased opinion with a skewed ratio like that.

Texas
04-21-2006, 02:49 AM
This might help :brickwall

thunderkyss
04-21-2006, 08:30 AM
I want a QB calling the play not the coach, particularly given who was calling them in the past. I'm just old fashioned about that.

That's old fashioned??

To think Parcells, Gibbs, Shanahan, Holmgren, Martz, Green, Gruden........ all of them been doing it wrong for so long....

Kaiser Toro
04-21-2006, 08:40 AM
I don't care if David Carr is special or not. He doesn't have to be an All-Pro year after year. He doesn't even have to be a Pro Bowler year after year. But to say David Carr sucks is hogwash. He improved year to year in our first 3 seasons. Almost everyone on our team took a step back last season. Domanick Davis had a worse season that one the before. Andre Johnson had an even worse year than his rookie season. Our offensive line..well it's hard to tell if they got worse because they've been so crappy every single year. Our defense was one of the worst in the NFL. It's a team game. David Carr is not solely to blame on last year's nightmare of a season. Look at who David Carr had around him. Mark Breuner and Marcellus Rivers at tight end. Oooo, that makes NFL defenses shiver. Corey Bradford and Jabar Gaffney to take pressure off of Andre Johnson. You could join Bradford and Gaffney's talent together, and they still won't be a #2 reciever. We had Victor Riley start half of our games at tackle last season. Victory Riley is the Matt Stevens of our offense. Do you remember how bad Matt Stevens was? Riley wasn't much better. David Carr can be a good QB for us and I'll be happy. Brad Johnson is a good QB. They won a Super Bowl in Tampa with them. Trent Dilfer and Kerry Collins both had teams that went to the Super Bowl. I think David Carr will turn into a very, very good QB, but you can win with a merely "good" QB on your team.

Your post is spot on. This is why many are scratching their heads to why we pay him 7+ million a year when we could pay a veteran QB half of the jack and spend those dollars elsewhere.

the wonger need food
04-21-2006, 09:30 AM
I don't care if David Carr is special or not. He doesn't have to be an All-Pro year after year. He doesn't even have to be a Pro Bowler year after year. But to say David Carr sucks is hogwash. He improved year to year in our first 3 seasons.

No, he doesn't have to be an All-Pro, but it would be nice if he looked like an average NFL QB with any kind of consistency.

I would disagree that he improved in year 3. He started his regression half way thru the 2004 season and had a terrible second half of that season. It continued into 2005.

thunderkyss
04-21-2006, 09:36 AM
I don't care if David Carr is special or not. He doesn't have to be an All-Pro year after year. He doesn't even have to be a Pro Bowler year after year. But to say David Carr sucks is hogwash. He improved year to year in our first 3 seasons. Almost everyone on our team took a step back last season. Domanick Davis had a worse season that one the before.
Domanick Davis was ranked 9th (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2005/regular) amoung all NFL runningbacks last year.... he was ranked 15th (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2004/regular), in 2004 and 19th (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2003/regular)the year before that, his Rookie Year.

DD is a stud.

Texans86
04-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Domanick Davis was ranked 9th (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2005/regular) amoung all NFL runningbacks last year.... he was ranked 15th (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2004/regular), in 2004 and 19th (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2003/regular)the year before that, his Rookie Year.

DD is a stud.

I think he was pointing out that DD had his lowest yardage output and was on the sideline for much of last season. He had his statistically worst season because of injuries.

U4ikrob
04-21-2006, 11:54 AM
No, he doesn't have to be an All-Pro, but it would be nice if he looked like an average NFL QB with any kind of consistency.

I would disagree that he improved in year 3. He started his regression half way thru the 2004 season and had a terrible second half of that season. It continued into 2005.

I'm guessing you dont recall anything changing in 2004 that might have helped that decline in the second half of the season then?? No injuries, Player cahnges or Perhaps a blocking scheme change that lead to a rise in sacks and loss of games because of confusion??

Its fairly obvious to me yours and many others distaste for DC - but at least lets agree on the facts before we move forward.

IMO David has played pretty average for the most part his whole career in the nfl. What has been below average is the teams ability to protect him. Protect him enough so he could develop adequate pocket presence and avoid some sacks. Between signal caller changes, blocking scheme changes, coach and player changes etc... for a young QB he's had to overcome alot - The performance of the team is and should certainly not all be on his shoulder's. But because he is the QB and face of the franchise he has to accept the blame - thats where I think DC needs to man up more - He needs to take this season square on the chin and get up and fight to take this team to the next level and IMO your going to see a very different DC this year because of it. He's always been a passing QB his whole career even at Fresno and then when he got to this team we had a run -ball control minded coach who under-utilized and ignored the talent he had on the team and forced them all to fall in line to the point it cost him his job. DC lit it up at Fresno and set passing records but has been held back thus far by lack of protection and playcalling which has hindered his development overall.

His play at times and esp in that one game [Arizona] reminded me of one of the most prolific and best QB's ever to play - Joe Montana - or what I called "Average Joe". His stats were pretty average for most of the year, but bottom line more than anything - he was efficient at running the offense. Thats why I felt that game with Arizona was special for DC because rather than trying to force big plays into the game - DC sat back and just ran the offense and made it work. Not because it was his biggest passing day or the day he scored the most TD's on. That day in Arizona there were alot of short passes and runs - Get used to it - because thats exactly what Kubes is got coming - The West coast Offense thrives on that stuff and is what took Montana, Young, and Elway to the superbowl. It wasnt the big spectacular plays on the highlight reels - Those are nice, but those are not usually what win you the game - Those alot of times are desperation heaves to catch up. But the WCO thrives with a calm cool efficient QB just running the offense. IMO thats what wins the games and got those teams to the championships. By their QB's being efficient and just playing inside the scheme and not trying to force anything. By doing just that they racked up score after score. The same thing happenened with DC and our squad against Arizona.

Does DC have things he needs to improve on - Sure - Just about every player on the squad does after a 2-14 season. But I think its hogwash to say DC is not an average NFL QB and I hope to see the "Wonger" along with some others getting full "Eating some Crow" this year.

:redtowel:

TwinSisters
04-21-2006, 12:14 PM
Your post is spot on. This is why many are scratching their heads to why we pay him 7+ million a year when we could pay a veteran QB half of the jack and spend those dollars elsewhere.

Remember though that Mort was tossing the #1 overall pick into the evaluation.

It's reasonable to expect to get a guy that is at least in the running for an alt spot on the Pro-Bowl roster with a top ten pick.

so IF ( emphasis on the IF )
He does not play at the pro-bowl level ( or alt pro-bowl level )
THEN
You should cut and bail. Get a cheaper "good" Johnson/Dilfer and spend the extra 4-5 million on two better lineman or something.

Do you agree or disagree?

Why do you agree or disagree?

the wonger need food
04-21-2006, 12:40 PM
I'm guessing you dont recall anything changing in 2004 that might have helped that decline in the second half of the season then?? No injuries, Player cahnges or Perhaps a blocking scheme change that lead to a rise in sacks and loss of games because of confusion??

Its fairly obvious to me yours and many others distaste for DC - but at least lets agree on the facts before we move forward.

Excuses, excuses. That's all the apologists have at this point.

I don't know if anyone has a "distaste" for DC. How could ya, he's a good human being. However, he is a below average NFL QB. I welcome facts and statistics that will prove otherwise. Excuses and sympathy fail to cut it after 4 years and several (wasted) million dollars.

thunderkyss
04-21-2006, 01:07 PM
Does DC have things he needs to improve on - Sure - Just about every player on the squad does after a 2-14 season. But I think its hogwash to say DC is not an average NFL QB and I hope to see the "Wonger" along with some others getting full "Eating some Crow" this year.

:redtowel:

Overall a good post........ a lot of good points...... you need to post more often.


but I'll eat Crow, when David shows to be better than avg two years in a row. Then, I'll start to believe.

You've brought up some good points that seem reasonable to believe this could happen. You've mentioned he has some things he needs to work on.

but do you see he does things a 4th year QB shouldn't be doing??

chuckm
04-21-2006, 01:09 PM
I'm guessing you dont recall anything changing in 2004 that might have helped that decline in the second half of the season then?? No injuries, Player cahnges or Perhaps a blocking scheme change that lead to a rise in sacks and loss of games because of confusion??

Its fairly obvious to me yours and many others distaste for DC - but at least lets agree on the facts before we move forward.


There are some things in your post with which I agree and some things with which I do not. However, if you're trying to convince wonger, forget it .... he's a Carr basher from way back .... even if Carr has an awesome year in 2006 it'll be because Kubiak's quarterback coaching skills helped him to overcome his obvious lack of ability and leadership skills ... right wonger?

the wonger need food
04-21-2006, 01:21 PM
There are some things in your post with which I agree and some things with which I do not. However, if you're trying to convince wonger, forget it .... he's a Carr basher from way back .... even if Carr has an awesome year in 2006 it'll be because Kubiak's quarterback coaching skills helped him to overcome his obvious lack of ability and leadership skills ... right wonger?

No, I am a Carr realistic. I don't let his looks and character get in the way of my observations and critiques of him as a player.

Believe me, if Carr somehow breaks out and finally lives up to his alleged potential (and salary), I will be as happy as anyone else. I am a Texans fan first and whatever it takes for them to win I am all for. I just don't believe in giving any player a penny (much less 8 million dollars) for performing like Carr has the past 25 games just because he poses for magazines and is a good christian/family man.

chuckm
04-21-2006, 01:30 PM
No, I am a Carr realistic. I don't let his looks and character get in the way of my observations and critiques of him as a player.

Believe me, if Carr somehow breaks out and finally lives up to his alleged potential (and salary), I will be as happy as anyone else. I am a Texans fan first and whatever it takes for them to win I am all for. I just don't believe in giving any player a penny (much less 8 million dollars) for performing like Carr has the past 25 games just because he poses for magazines and is a good christian/family man.


Well count me in as one that thinks he hasn't lived up to his potential. However, our differences begin when we try to explain why. Has he made crappy decisions? Absolutely. Has he ran out of bounds when he could've thrown the ball away? Yep. Has he been running for his life for the better part of his career? Yep.

I suppose that means I have a man-crush on him, or am enamored with his spirituality, or that I'm a Carr apologist, ..... or whatever.... Peace.

Texans86
04-21-2006, 01:36 PM
No, I am a Carr realistic. I don't let his looks and character get in the way of my observations and critiques of him as a player.

Believe me, if Carr somehow breaks out and finally lives up to his alleged potential (and salary), I will be as happy as anyone else. I am a Texans fan first and whatever it takes for them to win I am all for. I just don't believe in giving any player a penny (much less 8 million dollars) for performing like Carr has the past 25 games just because he poses for magazines and is a good christian/family man.


Unfortunately, the $25 million is just the way rookie contracts work. Carr has too much "what if..." left in the tank to just let him go. The same thing will come up if we give a big contract to RB or Mario, there will be an extension clause put into the contract with a very large number attached to it.

Through the first three year Carr made marked improvement with very little help from coaches, from talent around him, and from the scheme. Playing to not lose is probably difficult for a guy with a cannon for an arm. (I doubt if even you doubt the physical aspects of his game...he is probably the best quarterback physically to come out in the past 5 years, including Mike Vick).

I've wiped last year from my mind, and we are now on year 4 of our 5 year plan. Playoffs 2007, with Carr at the helm.

Kaiser Toro
04-21-2006, 01:39 PM
Remember though that Mort was tossing the #1 overall pick into the evaluation.

It's reasonable to expect to get a guy that is at least in the running for an alt spot on the Pro-Bowl roster with a top ten pick.

so IF ( emphasis on the IF )
He does not play at the pro-bowl level ( or alt pro-bowl level )
THEN
You should cut and bail. Get a cheaper "good" Johnson/Dilfer and spend the extra 4-5 million on two better lineman or something.

Do you agree or disagree?

Why do you agree or disagree?

DC is our QB this year and expect his growth in the new system to be persistently monitored by the staff. I have no idea what their timeline or metrics will look like to measure him, but I would expect that he will get a full year and then it will be decision time come June 1 of 2007.

TwinSisters
04-21-2006, 02:04 PM
DC is our QB this year and expect his growth in the new system to be persistently monitored by the staff. I have no idea what their timeline or metrics will look like to measure him, but I would expect that he will get a full year and then it will be decision time come June 1 of 2007.

:challenge

dodger!

:)

I agree completely. That is what is most likely going to happen.

But what do 'you' feel like is the right thing to do?

You being defined as the Kaiser Toro. Your opinion. Certainly your opinion isn't whatever they do is great, so long as my beer doesn't get warm.

So you agree that he gets one season ( I think that is a gimmie though ).

You do not agree that Pro Bowl caliber play should mesh into whether or not he should be getting 7+ million a season? I take it that is your opinion because of the misdirection counter play you just called.

Kaiser Toro
04-21-2006, 03:15 PM
:challenge

dodger!

:)

I agree completely. That is what is most likely going to happen.

But what do 'you' feel like is the right thing to do?

You being defined as the Kaiser Toro. Your opinion. Certainly your opinion isn't whatever they do is great, so long as my beer doesn't get warm.

So you agree that he gets one season ( I think that is a gimmie though ).

You do not agree that Pro Bowl caliber play should mesh into whether or not he should be getting 7+ million a season? I take it that is your opinion because of the misdirection counter play you just called.

My past posts speak for themselves on this worn out topic and I have committed to myself, and some other posters, not to provide my opinions on DC, as an individual contributor, until the ball is hiked. Sorry for the virtual dodgeball but my position has been overstated exponentially.

TwinSisters
04-21-2006, 03:32 PM
My past posts speak for themselves on this worn out topic and I have committed to myself, and some other posters, not to provide my opinions on DC, as an individual contributor, until the ball is hiked. Sorry for the virtual dodgeball but my position has been overstated exponentially.

Ok fair enough. I am still getting around to diggin into the wood pile, so to speak... to see what has already been chopped on.

I figured since Mort brought it up again, it was worth looking at it again.
( for me )

Jwwillis
04-21-2006, 08:16 PM
Yeah I was going to start a thread on this, but I wanted to wait until after the draft ( to filter out the emotional cheerleader factor )

( not saying there is anything wrong with emotions or cheerleaders though. That's fine and they are fine. I cry too. )

When does it become a Carr problem or QB problem?

I had a hard time last season looking at Carr, when I watched Brett Favre and some others play. Toss that in with the Harrington implosion.

Can you blame it all on the OL? Favre is old and had a horrible line last season. His support problems were close to our own. They had to go 4 to 6 deep to find a running back to start.

Carr is young and Favre is on his last leg. Certainly if you cannot expect your quarterback to be better than a HOFer, you could at least expect him to be doing better than an ageing 'about to' retire HOFer.... but it didn't look that way.

Now I will tell you that Carr is my man, but when do I check myself and say... I have a worm instead of a butterfly? ( when it's past the time that I should be seeing wings )

Does anybody know of place that counts dropped balls? Is that it?

Carr problems:

1.) Holds onto the ball to long trying to make something happen.

2.) Not very good at avoiding the rush IN the pocket.

3.) Happy feet, Gun Shy, and does not chk off more than 2 recievers.

4.) Leadership skills questionable

Carr Disadvantages:

1.)Started as a Rookie

2.) On a 1st year expansion team:

A. No depth

B. No Cohesivness (sp)

C. Having to work with an O. not suited for the available talent.

As for Carr 1,2,3 and 4 were not listed as concerns coming out of college. I content they are a nasty bi-product of A, B, C.

Let look at each problem:

1.) Carr was on a losing team with no debth and only 1 true pro bowl caliber teammate on O (Johnson, lucky he is a WR). But without a legit #2 WR Johnson was taken out of the game by opposing D's, also injuries.

2.) I dont think Carr ever had to avoid a pass rush like what he has seen in the NFL. But this is something he is going to have to work on.

3.) This one is easy. Carr wasn't like that when he came into the league. Right now Carr reminds me of Fran Tarkington and Archie Manning. The diffrence is the Vikings and Saints were not expansion teams when they played. Carr has an average of 1.7secs to make a play or get rid of the ball.

4.) It will come with wins

Looking at disadvantages

Now, last season was a bust mainly because of A,B,C. Lot-o-injuries, crappy O coaching, and a O-line that has never had the same guys at the same positions 2yrs in a row. Same on D. Beat up front 5, 3-4 did not suit the talent on hand. Seconday is hard to judge since we did not give ANY QB trouble. Remember the Bills game?

I'll remind all of you that there are a lot of great QB's that never won the big one. Archie Manning is a perfect example since we are talking about Carr.
How about Dan Marino? There are also a lot of QB's drafted with high expectations but it took 8+ yrs. for them to win a championship.

Plunket
Kelly
Elway

Does anybody remember or know how long it took Bradshaw to be succesful?
As I recall Steeler fans wanted Bradshaw gone.

Does anybody remember how long Tampa Bay, San Diego, Dallas, New England, were around before they had any success or won a championship? Or even worse, what if the Texans become like the Oilers, Lions,Cardnals and get to the superbowl 1 time in like 45yrs. Or get into the playoffs on an average of twice a decade.

The Texans will get better. The owner is 1st rate.

Lastly, experiance out weighs youth and athleticism at the QB position in the NFL. So the Farve, Carr comparison is a little off base IMO. Sure they didnt have a great o-line but they also lost Green to injury, also they only won 2 more games than the Texans did. They also have been around since the NFL was formed, meaning they have had a system and 10+yrs worth of drafts to work with for there current team.

TwinSisters
04-21-2006, 10:38 PM
The only reason I brought Favre up with Carr was to try and compare a known good QB with a bad offensive line and somewhat suspect help ( Gado turned out to be ok, but he had problems with WR's; one wants a trade because of Favre )

Not so much to expect Carr to be Favre, but to see what is different.
---

The Bradshaw example is pretty neat. I was thinking about that too. He's a guy that was never really super accurate and he's considered a HOFer ( he is a HOFer ). I am not sure if you can compare Carr with him because of the time difference though.

---

I am thinking the dropped balls issue with Carr is a myth. Yes it is possible that once he figured out who couldn't catch, he stopped throwing that way as much, but still his dropped pass stats are not higher than most of the other QBs in the NFL.
---

I am not so sure how much the expansion franchise factor plays in the Texans now and what to expect from Carr in the next season or two.

Think about the Bengals. Surely after spending 10 years in the gutter they would be on the same level as an expansion team, but they picked up Carson Palmer #1 pick over all ...added Chad Johnson. And bam they are winning.

( that's not the whole story... but that's not the point. The point is that the Bengals were a crap hole no good for nothing not worth a damn laughing stock franchise for ten years and then turned it up at about the same time the Texans hit the scene. I'll add a short story to this soliloquy. I witnessed a guy getting laughed at for wearing a Bengals shirt in a diner a few years ago. Just some old guy trying to enjoy his eggs and bacon and he was getting laughed at... it was like a contagious yawn... one guy saw the shirt and started to laugh..and then another guy looked to see what he was laughing about and started laughing.. I heard them laugh and looked to see what was going on and started to chuckle myself. That's how bad it was for the Bengals )

Jwwillis
04-22-2006, 12:28 AM
The only reason I brought Favre up with Carr was to try and compare a known good QB with a bad offensive line and somewhat suspect help ( Gado turned out to be ok, but he had problems with WR's; one wants a trade because of Favre )

Not so much to expect Carr to be Favre, but to see what is different.

The diffrence is a decade of expierance and as bad as the Packers line was it was still better than the Texans. Also, there are 11 players on the field and a good team should have 22 starter quality players. 2 deep. I dont think the Packers have a whole bunch more talent than the Texans at the starter position. It is the depth that is hard to achieve in 4yrs.

---

The Bradshaw example is pretty neat. I was thinking about that too. He's a guy that was never really super accurate and he's considered a HOFer ( he is a HOFer ). I am not sure if you can compare Carr with him because of the time difference though.

Comparing Carr to Farve isnt any more out of line than comparing Bradshaw and Carr.


---

I am thinking the dropped balls issue with Carr is a myth. Yes it is possible that once he figured out who couldn't catch, he stopped throwing that way as much, but still his dropped pass stats are not higher than most of the other QBs in the NFL.

agreed
---

I am not so sure how much the expansion franchise factor plays in the Texans now and what to expect from Carr in the next season or two.

They should be in good shape after the next 2 seasons. Does ANYBODY remember the 5yr building program?

Think about the Bengals. Surely after spending 10 years in the gutter they would be on the same level as an expansion team, but they picked up Carson Palmer #1 pick over all ...added Chad Johnson. And bam they are winning.

Ownership plays a big roll in this, as well as astute player evaluation and cap managment.Remember the Oilers were one of the original teams to join the NFL after the merger. The Oilers won championships as well as Detroit when they were in the AFL, then nothing after the merger. This is why i am so puzzled with the "Whats wrong with the Texans." threads. I mean why does everbody think 3-5yrs to get to the playoffs and then a Superbowl shortly thereafter? The truth is we will be lucky if the Texans EVER make it to the Superbowl.

( that's not the whole story... but that's not the point. The point is that the Bengals were a crap hole no good for nothing not worth a damn laughing stock franchise for ten years and then turned it up at about the same time the Texans hit the scene. I'll add a short story to this soliloquy. I witnessed a guy getting laughed at for wearing a Bengals shirt in a diner a few years ago. Just some old guy trying to enjoy his eggs and bacon and he was getting laughed at... it was like a contagious yawn... one guy saw the shirt and started to laugh..and then another guy looked to see what he was laughing about and started laughing.. I heard them laugh and looked to see what was going on and started to chuckle myself. That's how bad it was for the Bengals

Thats absurd. Just because my home team is bad doesnt mean i wont support them with t-shirts caps etc. Besides the Bengals have had more success as a franchise than any Houston NFL franchise. As a matter of fact ANY Houston sports franchise except possably the Rockets. The Bengals have also had more success than many teams that have been around longer, Detroit, Houston,St. Louis/Arizona, NO Saints, NY Jets. Also, the Browns havent done much lately either.

The Texans will get better fast. They had more talent than 2-14 to begin with.

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 01:01 AM
The only reason I brought Favre up with Carr was to try and compare a known good QB with a bad offensive line and somewhat suspect help ( Gado turned out to be ok, but he had problems with WR's; one wants a trade because of Favre )

Not so much to expect Carr to be Favre, but to see what is different.
---


Let's go with that... Bret had bad offensive line play.... Carr had bad offensive line play... Andre got hurt, was out a few games... Bret's main target also didn't play 16 games...... Carr had a 1000 yrd back. Houston avg'd 113 yards/game, Greenbay avg'd 84.5 yards/game.

so..... that's about even right....... two great QBs, on bad teams....
David Carr..... passing yards: 2488....... 60.5% completion..... 155 yards/game.... 14 TDs

Brett Farve...... passing yards: 3881.... 61.3% completion... 242 yards/game.... 20 TDs...

Now...... should be easy to see the difference between a ProBowler on a bad team, and an average QB on a bad team.

infantrycak
04-22-2006, 01:14 AM
Now...... should be easy to see the difference between a ProBowler on a bad team, and an average QB on a bad team.

Right you are... David Carr--TD-INT/Attempts = 1.2%. Brett Favre--TD-INT/Attempts = -2.42%.

Good job--clear conclusion, a probowler on a bad team is worse than an average QB on a bad team. Hmmm. that doesn't sound right...maybe the 2nd one should say worse team...wait, that kind of analysis is too complex. Nah, draft VY--whoohooo. (Geez, and I really like VY but this has gotten ridiculous).

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 01:30 AM
Right you are... David Carr--TD-INT/Attempts = 1.2%. Brett Favre--TD-INT/Attempts = -2.42%.

Good job--clear conclusion, a probowler on a bad team is worse than an average QB on a bad team. Hmmm. that doesn't sound right...maybe the 2nd one should say worse team...wait, that kind of analysis is too complex. Nah, draft VY--whoohooo. (Geez, and I really like VY but this has gotten ridiculous).

My take, is that Bret Gave his recievers more opportunities to make plays, move the team down the field....

Bret wants to win, and works that way..... I guess, Carr is worried about his stats........ TD-Int/attempts........ wooooooo........ I'd take the wins, the yards, the first downs...... I'll take a few Int's sprinkled here and there...

Master Po
04-22-2006, 02:04 AM
Who is Bret?

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 02:13 AM
Who is Bret?

if I type two t's in a row like that, it sets off my carpal tunnel thing...... hence, Brett(ouch) becomes Bret......... lettuce(ouch) becomes letuce........ shew....

Carr Bombed
04-22-2006, 02:32 AM
Bret wants to win, and works that way

That has nothing to do with what happened with Brett last year. Ever since Brett threw that ball up in the air against the Eagles to blow the playoff game a couple of years ago, he hasn't been the same. I love Brett, but I'm tired of people making excuses for his poor decisions. If he plays poorly he doesn't have to worry about someone above him ripping in to him, Brett's problem is he hasn't been the same since Holmgren left. Holmgren kept him in check and since his departure Brett has reverted back to the player that Holmgren pulled out of games and benched. Farve's gun slinger mentality,AKA "Bad decision making and throwing into double coverage" is a big reason for his bad season. Yes Brett had to deal with alot of injuries on his team, but that doesn't explain throwing the ball up for grads, he needs to stop forcing the issue. I'll take a QB that will rather take a sack than just throw a football up for grabs.

TwinSisters
04-22-2006, 04:00 AM
Thats absurd. Just because my home team is bad doesnt mean i wont support them with t-shirts caps etc.

nah... you are reading that all wrong. I am just illustrating how bad it was for the Bengals from 1991-2002. That's a full decade of being losers. It has nothing to do with what shirt you should wear.

The reason for bringing it up is to say 'well the Bengals at 10 years of being losers shouldn't be that far off from a team starting from scratch like Houston.' Unless you are going to say losing all that time somehow is teaching them something. Doubt it. Possible, but I doubt it.

It's not to say they have the exact same conditions either, however Mortensen put Carson Palmer and David Carr on the same level... hence Bengal reference.

infantrycak
04-22-2006, 09:25 AM
My take, is that Bret Gave his recievers more opportunities to make plays, move the team down the field....

Bret wants to win, and works that way..... I guess, Carr is worried about his stats........ TD-Int/attempts........ wooooooo........ I'd take the wins, the yards, the first downs...... I'll take a few Int's sprinkled here and there...

My guess is this kind of comment comes more from wanting to bash than any informed guess. Want to bet on what the answer is on whether Capers/Pendry wanted Carr airing it out on a hope with a few int's sprinkled here and there? Yeah, that couldn't have been part of the equation--it must have been Carr worrying about his stats. C'mon, you do some good analysis, but the when in doubt bash Carr thing is overdone.

Jwwillis
04-22-2006, 09:56 AM
nah... you are reading that all wrong. I am just illustrating how bad it was for the Bengals from 1991-2002. That's a full decade of being losers. It has nothing to do with what shirt you should wear.

The reason for bringing it up is to say 'well the Bengals at 10 years of being losers shouldn't be that far off from a team starting from scratch like Houston.' Unless you are going to say losing all that time somehow is teaching them something. Doubt it. Possible, but I doubt it.

It's not to say they have the exact same conditions either, however Mortensen put Carson Palmer and David Carr on the same level... hence Bengal reference.

My reply was misleading as well. Absurd is a bit strong. Man, 10yrs being losers is bad but not unusual.

Lets look at current SB winners and determine how long it took them to get there or get back.

Patriots - 3 SB wins, 4 appearances - 85,02,03,05
It took 26 years for them to get to the SB and 43years to win one.

Professional football arrived in New England on Nov. 16, 1959, when a group of local businessmen, led by former public relations executive William H. "Billy" Sullivan Jr. was awarded the eighth and final franchise in the new American Football League. One week later, Northwestern University running back Ron Burton was selected as the franchise's first draft choice and Syracuse running back Gerhardt Schwedes was selected as the team's first territorial choice.

In1982, Schaefer Stadium was renamed Sullivan Stadium. In 1985, the Patriots gained a wild-card berth in the playoffs and went on to defeat the New York Jets, Los Angeles Raiders and the Miami Dolphins on the road to win their first AFC Championship and a trip to Super Bowl XX. Unfortunately, the Patriots faced one of the dominant teams of the '80s as the Chicago Bears rolled to a 46-10 Super Bowl victory. Following that season, Patriot greats John Hannah and Julius Adams retired.

Steelers - 5 SB wins, 6 appearances - 75,76,79,80,96,06 all wins except for the '96 loss to Dallas. You can see that after free agency it took 16 and 10 years to get back to the dance. Also it took them 8 yrs to post a winning record.

After founding the Pirates in 1933, Rooney watched his club struggle through its first seven seasons with just 22 wins and five different head coaches. While home games were played at Forbes Field, Rooney often took his team to such cities as Johnstown, Latrobe, Youngstown, New Orleans, and Louisville in the 1930s due to competition with baseball and college football.

In 1940 Rooney changed the team name to the Pittsburgh Steelers, representing the heritage of Pittsburgh. The first winning record in the organization's history came in 1942 when head coach Walt Kiesling led the Steelers to a 7-4 finish with the league-leading rushing of rookie Bill Dudley. But the next year Dudley joined the Armed Forces along with many other NFL players as the nation went to war. With rosters depleted, Rooney merged the Steelers with the Philadelphia Eagles in 1943 (Phil-Pitt "Steagles") and with the Chicago Cardinals (Card-Pitt) in 1944.

Denver - 2 SB wins, 6 appearances

Established 1960, 1st playoff appearance 1977, 1st SB appearance 1978, 1st SB win 1998. It took 17yrs to appear in the playoffs, 18yrs to get to the SB and 38yrs to win one.

Im running out of time ( i was gonna do the last 8 teams that have won the last 10 SB's ). However, the theme is the same on all.

BTW. The Bengals had 11 wins last year, the same as the Steelers. The Browns were in last place. Are you sure that guy wasnt wearing a Browns shirt?

TwinSisters
04-22-2006, 01:38 PM
Lets look at current SB winners and determine how long it took them to get there or get back.

Im running out of time ( i was gonna do the last 8 teams that have won the last 10 SB's ). However, the theme is the same on all.

BTW. The Bengals had 11 wins last year, the same as the Steelers. The Browns were in last place. Are you sure that guy wasnt wearing a Browns shirt?

That's kinda what my point is. The Bengals are winning now, when their club was in the same shape as the Texans back in 2001. ( not exactly the same shape, but losers )

On the Super Bowls: We are not talking about winning Super Bowls. Palmer/Manning/Carr/Couch went overall #1 and only one QB is considered a bust. Most of the level headed fellas don't expect a Super Bowl win every year, but they do expect to be relieved of nesting the #1 overall pick in the draft.

EDIT: I better add... Looking at Carr has nothing to do with who is picked up in the (#*%^&^$#&* draft this season.

"It was to surmount the stigma once articulated by LaDainian Tomlinson of the San Diego Chargers, who said, "You play not to get laughed at and not to be called the Cincinnati Bengals of the league." "

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060422/SPT03/604220382/1022

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 04:00 PM
My guess is this kind of comment comes more from wanting to bash than any informed guess. Want to bet on what the answer is on whether Capers/Pendry wanted Carr airing it out on a hope with a few int's sprinkled here and there? Yeah, that couldn't have been part of the equation--it must have been Carr worrying about his stats. C'mon, you do some good analysis, but the when in doubt bash Carr thing is overdone.

So, to clarify....... are you saying the pass is more likely to be intercepted, imcomplete, or a completion??
Yes, it is a bit of speculation on my part.

I think we had this discussion before.

Bret has more INTs that Carr.... so what.... he also has more TDs.. more yards, more wins, and what ever other stats I've mentioned. I mentioned those stats to show, illustrate what it looks like to have a proBowl... future HOF QB behind a bad offensive line, with no running game, only one recieving threat, compared to an avg at best QB behind a poor offensive line...... a productive running game, a real threat at WR.

Texans86
04-22-2006, 04:04 PM
So, to clarify....... are you saying the pass is more likely to be intercepted, imcomplete, or a completion??
Yes, it is a bit of speculation on my part.

I think we had this discussion before.

Bret has more INTs that Carr.... so what.... he also has more TDs.. more yards, more wins, and what ever other stats I've mentioned. I mentioned those stats to show, illustrate what it looks like to have a proBowl... future HOF QB behind a bad offensive line, with no running game, only one recieving threat, compared to an avg at best QB behind a poor offensive line...... a productive running game, a real threat at WR.

I think it has something to do with the coaching mindset. Yes, we will not throw as many TDs, but we won't have as many INTs either. The risk/reward factor comes into play. Capers and Co. didn't want to make big risks to try to win, they wanted to be conservative. Since Favre took more risks, he made enough completions to make up for his INTs. The playcallling also has something to do with it.

sprtsfanatic
04-22-2006, 10:06 PM
I like Drew Bledsoe... he's a ProBowler.... he puts up good stats, doesn't make too many stupid mistakes.

But when he's messing up, I'll tell you.

Same with Peyton, Same with Donovan, and Culpepper.

Put any of those guys on bad teams, and I can tell you when they are playing well, or when they are playing bad. When they are lifting their teams, and when they are dragging them down.

Same thing with David. He may very well be as talented & smart as Peyton & Carson............ but he played very poorly the second half of 2004, & all of 2005(well most of it).

Put it this way. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to get a team to the SuperBowl. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to win a SuperBowl. & while he did take his team to the SuperBowl once, and he owns an NFL Championship ring........ he's never won the superbowl, and time is running out.

....eh...huh????:confused:
and this rambling was going where???

sprtsfanatic
04-22-2006, 10:22 PM
[/quote]So whose got more Talent?? Joey Galloway, or Peyton Manning..... Galloway has breakaway speed, Manning doesn't.[/QUOTE]

That was the lamest coment I've seen you post...the comment that you replied at least compared two players at the same position...you could atleast give a decent argument.

I usually enjoy reading your post and hearing most of your opinions on the Texans but your past couple of post have me wondering what in the hell your smoking.....where's the real thunder and what have you done with him???:challenge

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 11:33 PM
....eh...huh????:confused:
and this rambling was going where???

how long we gonna wait??