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View Full Version : Reggie Bush?? Ronnie Brown??


thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 07:55 AM
I don't know either of these guys. I heard(read) a couple of guys here mention that Ronnie Brown is better than Reggie Bush....... But Ronnie Brown couldn't get the #1 overall over AlexSmith who went to SanFran, because nobody else wanted the spot...... SanFran had to take the BPA @ #1, and it was AlexSmith. I understand they took a RunningBack in the 3rd round of the 2005 draft, but c'mon........ Ronnie Brown is better than Reggi Bush, the best player/running back to come out in decades.

Of course, that has me wondering.... if Reggie Bush would be behind Ronnie Brown in the draft, why would we want to take him with the #1 overall?? Is it just the hype??

So it's changed from Reggie being the best RB in Decades to the Best player in decades....... & it's obvious, I'm not looking at this correctly. I'm thinking you guys want to draft a running back, who can catch out of the backfield. When it looks like you guys want to draft a slot reciever that will occasionally line up in the backfield.

But let's look at what Ronnie Brown has done his rookie year.

Ronnie Brown.. 15games
RushingYards: 907 on 207 carries(13.8/game) 4 for touchdowns, 5 longer than 20 yards, and 41 first downs......
Recieving yards: 232 on 32 catches(2.1/game)....... 7.3avg..... 1 TD, 12 Firstdowns....
That's 1139 total yards.... on 15.9 touches/game.(4.7 yards/touch)

Is this the kind of performance we expect from Reggie his Rookie year?? or better??

If Ronnie Brown is better than Reggie, I can't imagine Reggie Performing better on a younger team...

But if he's the best player to come out in Decades, I'd expect him to perform better than LT his rookie year.

Ladainian Tomlinson 16games, started
Rushing Yards: 1236 on 339 carries(21/game).. 10 TDs, 7 runs over 20, 67 First downs....
Recieving yards: 367 on 59(3/game) catches, 6.2 avg........ 0 TDs....... 12 FDs
That's 1603 total yards from scrimmage. on 24 touches/game.(4.2yards/touch)

I mean Reggies the best player in decades, surely he can best 1603 total yards right??

DD 14 games......... 10 started
Rushing Yards: 1031 on 238 carries(17/game).... 8 TDs...5 runs over 20, 47 first downs....
Recieving Yards: 351 on 47 catches(3.35/game).... 7.5avg..... 0 TDs..... 15 first downs.
That's 1382 total yards from scrimmage, on 20 touches/game.(4.9 yards/touch)

Of course, these are just stats.... they don't tell the whole story, unless they are in Reggies Favor, or detrimental to DD.
Of course we've had the best run blocking team in the NFL, bar none for three years running.
Of course, SanFran & Miami were worse teams than we were in that same period...

But according to these stats, DD although he was a lowly 4th round Draft pick(Terrell Davis), is comparable to both these guys.

If you had Ronnie Brown on your team, would you still use your #1 to draft Reggie Bush?? If you had LT?? would you??

IF you had a guy who had a better rookie year than one of those two, and came up 221yards shy of the best Running back to come out of college in the last decade(110.5 yards per game, 14 vs 16) when LT started all 16 games, would you still draft Reggie Bush??

Personally, I think it would be foolish if you had any of the three aforementioned players.

But like I said, I'm missing something, looking at this all wrong....... if you could point me in the right direction, I'd much appreciate it.

Dr. Toro
04-19-2006, 08:19 AM
I don't know either of these guys. I heard(read) a couple of guys here mention that Ronnie Brown is better than Reggie Bush....... But Ronnie Brown couldn't get the #1 overall over AlexSmith who went to SanFran, because nobody else wanted the spot...... SanFran had to take the BPA @ #1, and it was AlexSmith. I understand they took a RunningBack in the 3rd round of the 2005 draft, but c'mon........ Ronnie Brown is better than Reggi Bush, the best player/running back to come out in decades.

Of course, that has me wondering.... if Reggie Bush would be behind Ronnie Brown in the draft, why would we want to take him with the #1 overall?? Is it just the hype??

So it's changed from Reggie being the best RB in Decades to the Best player in decades....... & it's obvious, I'm not looking at this correctly. I'm thinking you guys want to draft a running back, who can catch out of the backfield. When it looks like you guys want to draft a slot reciever that will occasionally line up in the backfield.

But let's look at what Ronnie Brown has done his rookie year.

Ronnie Brown.. 15games
RushingYards: 907 on 207 carries(13.8/game) 4 for touchdowns, 5 longer than 20 yards, and 41 first downs......
Recieving yards: 232 on 32 catches(2.1/game)....... 7.3avg..... 1 TD, 12 Firstdowns....
That's 1139 total yards.... on 15.9 touches/game.(71 yards/touch)

Is this the kind of performance we expect from Reggie his Rookie year?? or better??

If Ronnie Brown is better than Reggie, I can't imagine Reggie Performing better on a younger team...

But if he's the best player to come out in Decades, I'd expect him to perform better than LT his rookie year.

Ladainian Tomlinson 16games, started
Rushing Yards: 1236 on 339 carries(21/game).. 10 TDs, 7 runs over 20, 67 First downs....
Recieving yards: 367 on 59(3/game) catches, 6.2 avg........ 0 TDs....... 12 FDs
That's 1603 total yards from scrimmage. on 24 touches/game.(67 yards/touch)

I mean Reggies the best player in decades, surely he can best 1603 total yards right??

DD 14 games......... 10 started
Rushing Yards: 1031 on 238 carries(17/game).... 8 TDs...5 runs over 20, 47 first downs....
Recieving Yards: 351 on 47 catches(3.35/game).... 7.5avg..... 0 TDs..... 15 first downs.
That's 1382 total yards from scrimmage, on 20 touches/game.(69 yards/touch)

Of course, these are just stats.... they don't tell the whole story, unless they are in Reggies Favor, or detrimental to DD.
Of course we've had the best run blocking team in the NFL, bar none for three years running.
Of course, SanFran & Miami were worse teams than we were in that same period...

But according to these stats, DD although he was a lowly 4th round Draft pick(Terrell Davis), is comparable to both these guys.

If you had Ronnie Brown on your team, would you still use your #1 to draft Reggie Bush?? If you had LT?? would you??

IF you had a guy who had a better rookie year than one of those two, and came up 221yards shy of the best Running back to come out of college in the last decade(110.5 yards per game, 14 vs 16) when LT started all 16 games, would you still draft Reggie Bush??

Personally, I think it would be foolish if you had any of the three aforementioned players.

But like I said, I'm missing something, looking at this all wrong....... if you could point me in the right direction, I'd much appreciate it.

Well, I'd take LT, as he matched Bush's 40 at 220 pounds, was a workhorse at TCU, can catch, run inside, break the long one, and had proven to be exceptionally durable. Brown just got people excited with his size/speed combo. But generally, you're right. Heck, Carroll said it, "you can find great running backs late in the draft". Additionally, running back is about fit with existing scheme/surrounding talent. Think about lil' Priest Holmes hiding behind Willie Roaf and exploding outside, Lewis trucking behind Ogden, Droughns, Anderson, Davis in Denver. The running back's production is largely impacted by the performance of the team, which might mean Domanick is better than advertised.

I'll even throw this out there, if there's a rookie running back starting in Indy next year, he'll be your AFC ROY.

texasguy346
04-19-2006, 09:52 AM
Ronnie Brown doesn't really compare to Bush. They are two very different types of RBs. Bush is more like the guy Ronnie Brown played second fiddle to at Auburn, Cadilliac Williams. Both are shifty RBs who have great speed & are big play threats. They both are good receivers out of the backfield (Reggie is better than Cadilliac in this aspect by leaps and bounds), and both were believed not to be able to run the ball between the tackles. Cadilliac has proved that he can run between the tackles, and he was the OROY I believe. I'm sure Reggie will prove that he, too, can run between the tackles.

However, if you're looking for specific numbers from a rookie RB just based on comparisons then you'll be in for a disappointment. You've got to look closely at the situation each RB is in with their new team. Ronnie Brown, for instance, shared time with Ricky 'I've got the munchies' Williams. Whereas Cadilliac was the main guy in Tampa, but he missed a couple games with an injury. Reggie will most likely be in a situation where he shares time with DD. So anyone thinking he'll be putting up 1500 yards in his first season might be in for a surprise. I think Reggie will be closer to 900 yds rushing in his first season if both he and DD stay healthy all season. I'd also expect him to have 400+ receiving yards. Once RB is the main guy then you're more likely to see him putting up 1300+ yd seasons.

TreWardTxn
04-19-2006, 10:34 AM
[QUOTE=texasguy346]Ronnie Brown doesn't really compare to Bush. They are two very different types of RBs. Bush is more like the guy Ronnie Brown played second fiddle to at Auburn, Cadilliac Williams. Both are shifty RBs who have great speed & are big play threats. They both are good receivers out of the backfield (Reggie is better than Cadilliac in this aspect by leaps and bounds), and both were believed not to be able to run the ball between the tackles. Cadilliac has proved that he can run between the tackles, and he was the OROY I believe. I'm sure Reggie will prove that he, too, can run between the tackles. /QUOTE]

I've got to disagree with that. The concern with Cadillac was whether he could carry an NFL load, but he was very much a between the tackles runner at Auburn who kept a low pad level and ran through and over many defenders. Cadillac is fast, but he is not a scat back who always looks to make people miss, even though he can do that. Scouts felt Brown was the better receiver of the two and combination of size and speed is impressive.
There is nothing he can't do with the best in the league, short yardage, 3rd down, make LBs miss, and run past or over safeties.

Some people believe that Bush can be Steve Smith-like in the passing game, and that's what makes him a better offensive threat, but not necessarily a better tail back, IMO..

texasguy346
04-19-2006, 10:48 AM
I've got to disagree with that. The concern with Cadillac was whether he could carry an NFL load, but he was very much a between the tackles runner at Auburn who kept a low pad level and ran through and over many defenders. Cadillac is fast, but he is not a scat back who always looks to make people miss, even though he can do that. Scouts felt Brown was the better receiver of the two and combination of size and speed is impressive.
There is nothing he can't do with the best in the league, short yardage, 3rd down, make LBs miss, and run past or over safeties.

Some people believe that Bush can be Steve Smith-like in the passing game, and that's what makes him a better offensive threat, but not necessarily a better tail back, IMO..

All valid points, but when I say Caddy had questions about being able to run between the tackles I'm referring mostly to what his detractors claimed were his weaknesses. Caddy ran plenty of times between the tackles at Auburn, and did so very well. Just as Bush has run between the tackles plenty of times at USC, and also did so with great results. Often times the knocks you see on a player are based more on their size or speed moreso than their play, and often times prove to be untrue. Caddilliac was a smaller back like Bush, and he faced some of the same questions/doubts as Bush based on their size on not on their play. Both guys also had running mates who often saw the field in short yardage or goal line situations in Brown and White.

As for Caddy's hands they were questioned coming out of Auburn, and it's true that Brown was seen as the more polished receiver out of the backfield. However, based on Gruden's reaction to Williams during his rookie minicamps it's clear that Williams is in fact a good receiver as well. He just wasn't used in that capacity much at Auburn. Once Tampa Bay drops Pittman you'll see Cadilliac take a larger role catching passes out of the backfield in Gruden's system. Both Brown and Caddy aren't nearly the receiver Bush is, and that's not an insult to either player but just illustrates how special Bush can be in the receiving game.

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 01:32 PM
All valid points, but when I say Caddy had questions about being able to run between the tackles I'm referring mostly to what his detractors claimed were his weaknesses. Caddy ran plenty of times between the tackles at Auburn, and did so very well. Just as Bush has run between the tackles plenty of times at USC, and also did so with great results. Often times the knocks you see on a player are based more on their size or speed moreso than their play, and often times prove to be untrue. Caddilliac was a smaller back like Bush, and he faced some of the same questions/doubts as Bush based on their size on not on their play. Both guys also had running mates who often saw the field in short yardage or goal line situations in Brown and White.

As for Caddy's hands they were questioned coming out of Auburn, and it's true that Brown was seen as the more polished receiver out of the backfield. However, based on Gruden's reaction to Williams during his rookie minicamps it's clear that Williams is in fact a good receiver as well. He just wasn't used in that capacity much at Auburn. Once Tampa Bay drops Pittman you'll see Cadilliac take a larger role catching passes out of the backfield in Gruden's system. Both Brown and Caddy aren't nearly the receiver Bush is, and that's not an insult to either player but just illustrates how special Bush can be in the receiving game.

First of all, Cadillac is one inch shorter, and 17 pounds heavier than Bush. He's a good NFL size back........ 5'11" 217lbs....... that's what he is supposed to be. Reggie is (or at least was listed) @ 6'0" 200lbs........ if those numbers are correct, then everyone had every right to question his size. While that is perfect for a Reciever, it is small for a RB...... Density is the goal. Shorter, heavier..... 5'10" 237lbs, while shorter than Reggie, is huge by comparison.

I think, Pittman(who I've liked since Arizona) sticks it out with Tampa Bay. He'll have to come to terms with being a backup. I like him, but I hate to see players move around. I hope he's found a home in Tampa, and is comfortable being a role player.

kastofsna
04-19-2006, 01:46 PM
i definitely expect bush to have better numbers than brown his rookie season. for a few reasons. first, brown missed 2 games. secondly, he split carries with ricky williams. 3rd, when he split carries, neither one got the ball much, as scott linehan is an idiot. you'd see gamelogs where ricky and ronnie have 15 rushes between the two of them, while gus frerotte is chucking the ball up 40 times. yeah, i know, great logic. bush will definitely get more carries, and more catches as well.

in terms of their roles in college, brown and bush are very similar. cadillac was the short yardage and TD guy, like lendale white, and brown was the guy who would split out at receiver and generally was a much more reliable target out of the backfield, like bush. both brown and bush are "special" players. brown combines the power of larry czonka with the breakaway speed of clinton portis. he's an EXCELLENT blocker (he saved at least one game last year just from his blocking), and has hands as good as any back in the league.

brown has more to offer a team than bush, believe it or not. he doesn't have the kick return abilities, but bush is just average in that category anyway.

gtexan02
04-19-2006, 01:49 PM
What in the world? Where did you ever get that Ronny Brown was better than Reggie Bush? Only in VY-lala land. Anyway, see this thread for a comparison of Brown and Bush:

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=21235

Heres a summary if you don't want to read the whole thing (College stats only, since Bush hasn't played in the pros yet):

Yards per carry: R Bush (7.32) > R Brown (5.28) > C Williams (5.17) > C Benson (4.98)

Receiving Yards Per Catch: R Bush (13.69) > R Brown (11.5) > C Benson (9) > C Williams (7.6)

Touchdowns Per Rushing Attempt: C Williams (16.46 carries) > R Bush (17.32 carries) > C Benson (17.375 carries) > R Brown (18.3 carries)

Touchdowns Per Receiving Catch: R Bush (7.3 catches) > C Benson (23 catches) > R Brown (29 catches) > C Williams (45 catches)

Overall touches Per Touchdown Scored: R Bush (13.89) > C Williams (17.08 touches) > C Benson (17.63) > R Brown (19.033 touches)

So every 14 times Bush touches the ball, he scored, whereas it took the others nearly 3 extra touches every time. And all the rest of the stuff, plus this isn't even considering all purpose (return) yards.

PS: Reggie Scored this often EVEN THOUGH all the Goal line carries went to Len Dale White (52 Rushing TDs)

Dr. Toro
04-19-2006, 02:11 PM
You don't think Brown's 30+ extra pounds are worth anything in that equation?

edo783
04-19-2006, 02:28 PM
You don't think Brown's 30+ extra pounds are worth anything in that equation?

No.

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 02:30 PM
What in the world? Where did you ever get that Ronny Brown was better than Reggie Bush? Only in VY-lala land. Anyway, see this thread for a comparison of Brown and Bush:


I didn't say it, it was a couple of Vince Haters who said it.

PokerStar
04-19-2006, 02:38 PM
Bush's stats for the season should looks something similar to this:

Attempts= 256
Rush yards= 1152
Rushing TDs= 12
Rush Avg.= 4.5
Receptions= 64
Rec Yards= 480
Rec. TDs= 4

This is my thought on Bush's production offensively. Now he should return some punts in key situations, but these are pretty accurate for his abilities. This assumption also means he is getting the ball 20 times a game 16 rushing and 4 receiving. Denver loves to throw to their backs in the redzone so he should be able to do somethings, but having Jameel Cook will take away from that, plus DD or Morency will get some nods in close.

Sutton=08Heisman
04-19-2006, 03:18 PM
ronnie isnt even better than cadillac williams

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 05:14 PM
Bush's stats for the season should looks something similar to this:

Attempts= 256
Rush yards= 1152
Rushing TDs= 12
Rush Avg.= 4.5
Receptions= 64
Rec Yards= 480
Rec. TDs= 4

This is my thought on Bush's production offensively. Now he should return some punts in key situations, but these are pretty accurate for his abilities. This assumption also means he is getting the ball 20 times a game 16 rushing and 4 receiving. Denver loves to throw to their backs in the redzone so he should be able to do somethings, but having Jameel Cook will take away from that, plus DD or Morency will get some nods in close.


So you're saying we won't get any more production out of our running game than we already are, and we should spend the#1 draftpick on Reggie for this produciton that we are already getting??

Sorry, but I'd just as soon have Vince watching the game if Reggie isn't going to give us anything we don't already have with DD & Morency.

gtexan02
04-19-2006, 05:21 PM
So you're saying we won't get any more production out of our running game than we already are, and we should spend the#1 draftpick on Reggie for this produciton that we are already getting??

Sorry, but I'd just as soon have Vince watching the game if Reggie isn't going to give us anything we don't already have with DD & Morency.

If you post a thread asking a legitimate question you ahve to be able to handle a legitimate answer. You don't want to accept the logical answer, which is that we ARE NOT getting those stats from our current back. If we could get a consistent 250 @ 4.5 ypc for 12+ tds from DD he would be much better. The problem is that he is so inconsisent. He has a nagging problem here, he fumbles twice there, he has 65 yards on 25 carries here, etc. Plus, if DD gets 10-15 carries a game and Bush gets 10-15 carries a game, and both average greater than 4.5 ypc, we will have the best rushing attack in football

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 05:28 PM
If you post a thread asking a legitimate question you ahve to be able to handle a legitimate answer. You don't want to accept the logical answer, which is that we ARE NOT getting those stats from our current back. If we could get a consistent 250 @ 4.5 ypc for 12+ tds from DD he would be much better. The problem is that he is so inconsisent. He has a nagging problem here, he fumbles twice there, he has 65 yards on 25 carries here, etc. Plus, if DD gets 10-15 carries a game and Bush gets 10-15 carries a game, and both average greater than 4.5 ypc, we will have the best rushing attack in football

So Let's apply the same reasoning to our QB.

We aren't getting 3000 passing yards out of our QB, we aren't getting 30 TDs a year, we aren't getting 24 points per game.

I'm with you. get rid of Carr, let's draft Vince.

thunderkyss
04-19-2006, 10:53 PM
Hello?? Is this discussion over??

thunderkyss
04-20-2006, 07:54 AM
If you post a thread asking a legitimate question you ahve to be able to handle a legitimate answer. You don't want to accept the logical answer, which is that we ARE NOT getting those stats from our current back. If we could get a consistent 250 @ 4.5 ypc for 12+ tds from DD he would be much better. The problem is that he is so inconsisent. He has a nagging problem here, he fumbles twice there, he has 65 yards on 25 carries here, etc. Plus, if DD gets 10-15 carries a game and Bush gets 10-15 carries a game, and both average greater than 4.5 ypc, we will have the best rushing attack in football
Okay, let me put it to you this way.....

250@ 4.5 ypc........ 12TDs......... what are you talking about??

250 yards per game?? is there anyone(other than a QB) who gets 250 yards per game?? I'd definitely want that guy on my team....... and I'll trade DD and the #1 pick to get him............ but not if that includes Punt/Kick-off returns.

Ronnie Brown, who I'm being told is better than Reggie Bush, only scored 5 touchdowns his Rookie season, DD scored 8, and LT scored 10......

In three years, DD fumbled the ball twice..... that's 40 games, more games played than most of the NFL 1st tier Runningbacks in their first three years. Ronnie Brown has already fumbled & lost 4 fumbles....

770 attempts, again, more than most NFL 1st tier running backs, their first three years, the guys you call super stars.

DD is no more injury prone than Tiki Barber, Shaun Alexander, Edgerin James, Clinton Portis, or Larry Johnson......... 2005 regular season rushing leaders. Of whom, DD Ranked ninth(that's top ten for you guys who can't read) (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2005/regular)

That's ahead of Warrick Dunn, Cadillac Williams, WIllie Parker, Willis McGahee, Reuben Droughns, Julius Jones, Fred Taylor, Stephen Jackson, Mike Anderson, Duece McAllister, etc.. etc...

In 2004, he was ranked 15 (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2004/regular) out of all NFL running backs... Duece McAllister, 18. Still ahead of Jerome Bettis, Willis McGahee, Stephen Jackson, Emmitt Smith, Brian Westbrook, Larry Johnson, Warrick Dunn, etc... ect...

In his Rookie Season (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2003/regular) he ranked 19th..... out of all the other NFL backs... not too bad, for a 4th round pick. Do you think Reggie Bush is going to rank higher than 19 his rookie season?? Ronnie Brown didn't, and he's better than Reggie Bush..... so I'm told.

Coach C.
04-20-2006, 08:43 AM
Thunder since I have read Pokerstar's other posts I would say that he was saying that Reggie Bush will do a little more than Davis, but nothing substantial. He is a Mario Williams guy. I refuse to buy into the hype that Reggie Bush a guy that has produced for one year and a half years and is not a true RB is the next HOF runningback. I laugh when people say he is the best back to come out in 10 years. That is a discredit to LT, LJ, Shaun Alexander, and the host of other guys that came out. Shaun Alexander is a HOFer he has been productive his whole career. LT and LJ are two of the best RBs in the league. Now I think Reggie is good, I think he can possibly be great, do I think he will ever be a great RB no, I think he can with the right scheme be a great offensive specialist.

Hey there is an article on cbssportsline about VY that says he is big time, but lists the serious questions with him, you should check it out.

thunderkyss
04-20-2006, 11:44 AM
Hey there is an article on cbssportsline about VY that says he is big time, but lists the serious questions with him, you should check it out.

Without a doubt, I'd like for the Texans to draft Vince Young..... the writing on the wall says otherwise, and I'm fine with that. But I've been against Reggie Bush from the get go...... I understand we may very well draft another running back, but we don't need to draft a guy on the first day.

Let's get at least one year with Kubiak's offensive scheme to see what we got. Denver targeted DD as a third Round pick back in the day. The only other RB they targeted that high in recent memory was Clinton Portis. I know DD will never be Portis, but I get goosebumps thinking about what Kubiak can do with a Portis/Davis like back. He's already above average, in my book, I think Kubiak can make him a Star.

No doubt, DD & Reggie can play on the same team..... the starting job would be DD's to loose, & I'm not afraid that DD will loose out in the competition, but for what we want Reggie to do, it would be silly, IMHO, to draft him with the #1 overall.

infantrycak
04-20-2006, 12:45 PM
Denver targeted DD as a third Round pick back in the day.

Denver wanted to take DD in the 4th with the #108 pick but Houston got him first with the 101st pick. Denver ended up picking Quentin Griffin.

hollywood_texan
04-20-2006, 12:52 PM
Denver wanted to take DD in the 4th with the #108 pick but Houston got him first with the 101st pick. Denver ended up picking Quentin Griffin.

Did the Front Office know Denver wanted Davis at #108?

I am asking because I wonder if they were just following some other scouting or at least using it as a guide?

Just curious because of Denver's history of picking running backs.

thunderkyss
04-20-2006, 04:22 PM
Denver wanted to take DD in the 4th with the #108 pick but Houston got him first with the 101st pick. Denver ended up picking Quentin Griffin.

Don't know what I was thinking.... you're right, we drafted DD in the 4th.

Still, only Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis was rated higher by Denver.