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texansfaninla
04-14-2006, 08:41 PM
Vince Young: Still The One:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/michael_silver/04/14/young/index.html

kastofsna
04-14-2006, 08:53 PM
i'm not one to change my opinion (or form an opinion on a player based on one game. so if a team felt young was a mid-round pick before the rose bowl, then thought he was worth the #1 pick after the rose bowl, then NOW they think he's a mid-round pick, then all things are normal again. they've had time to watch more film, talk to him, talk to teammates, etc etc, so i'll trust the team that did their homework and didn't just make a snap decision based on one game.

jgite
04-14-2006, 11:16 PM
Well it's never been totally one game. He has been doing this for a year and a half. The Rose Bowl was his coming out party. I think of it as if he was a musician. You might have wrote him off as being not worth it, but that was the one album that caught your ears and you become a fan. Look at winston justice and vernon davis, they went from second round or low first round to the top 10 or top 15 all because of their combine. Whats the difference with one game vs. one combine.

tulexan
04-14-2006, 11:23 PM
Well it's never been totally one game. He has been doing this for a year and a half. The Rose Bowl was his coming out party. I think of it as if he was a musician. You might have wrote him off as being not worth it, but that was the one album that caught your ears and you become a fan. Look at winston justice and vernon davis, they went from second round or low first round to the top 10 or top 15 all because of their combine. Whats the difference with one game vs. one combine.


Mel Kiper has been saying all season that Vernon Davis will be a top 10 pick. He said that his workout would be more impressive than Shockey's or K2

texansfaninla
04-14-2006, 11:40 PM
I must say - I've watched a ton of Vince Young video and Reggie Bush video online over the last several days, and I just go back and forth and back and forth. Here's what I think - my :twocents: - Reggie Bush has an amazing amount of athletic skill, work ethic, etc., but he's just a vital cog to a larger well-oiled engine. In other words, he's not a guy to take the wheel, put the team on his shoulders, and lead it to a win.

As perspective, for years I was a Lions fan - during the Barry Sanders era after the Oilers were ready to be gone. Barry was and is my all-time favorite RB. The guy was flat out unbelievable in spite of playing on a bad team with a poor surrounding cast, esp. QB. He could make great plays, but just couldn't take the team on his shoulders and deliver a W. It's not the nature of the position. It's a role most suited for a quarterback.

Now, what I'm getting to is, the Texans need a star to identify it in the NFL galaxy. And as a dedicated Texans fan now, I don't want to see them make the same mistake the Lions did with Barry. He had some years when he was surrounded with talent, but he could only do so much. The ball was in Scott Mitchell's hands a heckuva lot more than his, and it could only go so far. What's Barry remembered for? Being a stellar athlete on an underperforming team, which ultimately drove him to early retirement.

In that respect, the linked article really nails it on the head. Reggie Bush can make some fantastic plays, but...Vince Young could be the real catalyst of this team - the guy whose leadership and mere will carries the team when it needs him most.

Make no mistake - Bush is an incredible prospect. But I just have a sense that he's not quite the leader that Vince is.

Add to that the genuine desire on the part of Vince to be The Guy in Houston, and the connection he would have with the fans, and the instantaneous widespread fan growth that would take place throughout what presently is Cowboy Country, and it just seems that Vince is too right for the Texans to pick. (Plus, it would be extremely awkward to attend a Texans-Titans game, with VY at QB for Tenn., and have half the crowd secretly cheering for a Titans win and/or disappointed with a Titans loss.)

And I by no means am a VY homer. Hell, I'm an LSU alum who would love to see either Bush or Young in a Texans uniform - and that's with Domanick Davis in the backfield.

But you watch the big plays Vince makes in crunch situations, see how his teammates gravitate to him, and keep in mind that the combine has been completely wrong about guys before...the question becomes, who do you want to lead this team?

Reggie Bush would be a great addition, but he's not in a position to lead the team like a QB. He just isn't. Vince is, and would be a much better leader than David Carr has been. And I think that's what this team needs. David Carr has had four years - FOUR YEARS - to do something. The article makes a great point - what if Carr's problems are not because of the OL, but are because Carr just isn't as good as we'd like him to be? At some point you have to take the right step forward.

Add to that the comments by Gary Kubiak about how he wants Carr to be able to throw on the run, and tuck the ball and run...is there anybody better than doing that who's in the draft than Vince? As for right now, Vince Young just feels so right, more so than Reggie Bush.

Feel free to disagree. Just my :twocents: . All I really know is, April 29 can't come soon enough.

bad
04-14-2006, 11:54 PM
Feel free to disagree. Just my :twocents: . All I really know is, April 29 can't come soon enough. Well said. :ok: Those words would fit in perfectly in just about every post in this forum.

LoneStarState
04-14-2006, 11:55 PM
Reggie Bush would be a great addition, but he's not in a position to lead the team like a QB. He just isn't. Vince is, and would be a much better leader than David Carr has been. And I think that's what this team needs. David Carr has had four years - FOUR YEARS - to do something. The article makes a great point - what if Carr's problems are not because of the OL, but are because Carr just isn't as good as we'd like him to be? At some point you have to take the right step forward. And as for right now, Vince Young just feels so right, more so than Reggie Bush.
Reggie Bush will be a great addition. More talent on the offensive side of the ball - which used to feature Jabar Gaffney and Cory Bradford and no TE to speak of. With Reggie, you get a running back and a receiver and a leader.

Vince is definitely an outstanding athlete. But he is not a fit for the Texans. First, he is primarily a running qb. The type of offense he excelled in at UT is not an NFL offense. He will not be able to tuck the ball and run on every play like he did at UT. That means at least a 2 year learning period. Carr has had a rough go of it. I've done my share of name calling and yelling for Tony Banks after the first sack. BUT - honestly, do you think the Texans gave him much of a chance to succeed? No true QB coach or coaching, no OL to speak of, 2 years of setting records for sacks (yes - some of which were his fault), 1 reciever to speak of, and a running back, who when healthy (and that's key here) can manage to produce enough to open up the offense a little.

Year 5 and the jury is still out on the Texans front office and Carr. BUT they have to give him the tools to succeed. If he can't prosper under Kubiak or with weapons including AJ, DD, Moulds, Putzier, AND Bush, then we got problems. BUT Bush makes the biggest impact now to improve the offense, play to WIN the games (not just stay close) and put butts in seats.

Nighthawk
04-15-2006, 12:00 AM
I must say - I've watched a ton of Vince Young video and Reggie Bush video online over the last several days, and I just go back and forth and back and forth. Here's what I think - my :twocents: - Reggie Bush has an amazing amount of athletic skill, work ethic, etc., but he's just a vital cog to a larger well-oiled engine. In other words, he's not a guy to take the wheel, put the team on his shoulders, and lead it to a win.

As perspective, for years I was a Lions fan - during the Barry Sanders era after the Oilers were ready to be gone. Barry was and is my all-time favorite RB. The guy was flat out unbelievable in spite of playing on a bad team with a poor surrounding cast, esp. QB. He could make great plays, but just couldn't take the team on his shoulders and deliver a W. It's not the nature of the position. It's a role most suited for a quarterback.

Now, what I'm getting to is, the Texans need a star to identify it in the NFL galaxy. And as a dedicated Texans fan now, I don't want to see them make the same mistake the Lions did with Barry. He had some years when he was surrounded with talent, but he could only do so much. The ball was in Scott Mitchell's hands a heckuva lot more than his, and it could only go so far. What's Barry remembered for? Being a stellar athlete on an underperforming team, which ultimately drove him to early retirement.

In that respect, the linked article really nails it on the head. Reggie Bush can make some fantastic plays, but...Vince Young could be the real catalyst of this team - the guy whose leadership and mere will carries the team when it needs him most.

Make no mistake - Bush is an incredible prospect. But I just have a sense that he's not quite the leader that Vince is.

Add to that the genuine desire on the part of Vince to be The Guy in Houston, and the connection he would have with the fans, and the instantaneous widespread fan growth that would take place throughout what presently is Cowboy Country, and it just seems that Vince is too right for the Texans to pick. (Plus, it would be extremely awkward to attend a Texans-Titans game, with VY at QB for Tenn., and have half the crowd secretly cheering for a Titans win and/or disappointed with a Titans loss.)

And I by no means am a VY homer. Hell, I'm an LSU alum who would love to see either Bush or Young in a Texans uniform - and that's with Domanick Davis in the backfield.

But you watch the big plays Vince makes in crunch situations, see how his teammates gravitate to him, and keep in mind that the combine has been completely wrong about guys before...the question becomes, who do you want to lead this team?

Reggie Bush would be a great addition, but he's not in a position to lead the team like a QB. He just isn't. Vince is, and would be a much better leader than David Carr has been. And I think that's what this team needs. David Carr has had four years - FOUR YEARS - to do something. The article makes a great point - what if Carr's problems are not because of the OL, but are because Carr just isn't as good as we'd like him to be? At some point you have to take the right step forward.

Add to that the comments by Gary Kubiak about how he wants Carr to be able to throw on the run, and tuck the ball and run...is there anybody better than doing that who's in the draft than Vince? As for right now, Vince Young just feels so right, more so than Reggie Bush.

Feel free to disagree. Just my :twocents: . All I really know is, April 29 can't come soon enough.

Great post. I made the same argument (somewhat less eloquently) a month or more ago. If they were both leaders it would be a different story, perhaps, but combining the leadership with the touching the ball on every play makes VY the better choice, especially if we were able to move down a bit and save some money.

Alas, I don't think it'll happen. There's too much lemming in all of us.

In any case, the Texans will be a MUCH more interesting team next year than in ANY year previous. We've all got that to look forward to.

el toro
04-15-2006, 12:05 AM
You know what the Texans need to do? Win. Now. Enough with all of the sentimental crap about VY and UT and Houston and what not. He's not going to do anything in this league for the next 2 seasons, if ever. If the NFL was about something else other than winning might I care about the VY drama. Take away the Rose Bowl win against a weak *** USC defense and VY would be lucky to break the top 15 in the draft.

Bush will be ready to play on the 1st down of the season. He won't be holding a clipboard. He fits your offense. VY doesn't even fit in the NFL. Forget about trading down for the sake of trading down because you're afraid or because your lust for VY cannot be sated.

LoneStarState
04-15-2006, 12:11 AM
You know what the Texans need to do? Win. Now. Enough with all of the sentimental crap about VY and UT and Houston and what not. He's not going to do anything in this league for the next 2 seasons, if ever. If the NFL was about something else other than winning might I care about the VY drama. Take away the Rose Bowl win against a weak *** USC defense and VY would be lucky to break the top 15 in the draft.

Bush will be ready to play on the 1st down of the season. He won't be holding a clipboard. He fits your offense. VY doesn't even fit in the NFL. Forget about trading down for the sake of trading down because you're afraid or because your lust for VY cannot be sated.
Yeah - what el toro said...

TexansLucky13
04-15-2006, 12:18 AM
Well it's never been totally one game. He has been doing this for a year and a half. The Rose Bowl was his coming out party. I think of it as if he was a musician. You might have wrote him off as being not worth it, but that was the one album that caught your ears and you become a fan. Look at winston justice and vernon davis, they went from second round or low first round to the top 10 or top 15 all because of their combine. Whats the difference with one game vs. one combine.

I call Vince Young a "One Hit Wonder". Remember those? Guys that had one awesome trip to the top, but then fell back down again, never to be seen again. Will Vince fall into obscurity? Of course not. He will make a bad-**** Raider. But considering him with the #1 pick? It's a bad joke.

axman40
04-15-2006, 12:22 AM
Bush will be ready to play on the 1st down of the season. He won't be holding a clipboard. He fits your offense. VY doesn't even fit in the NFL.
What you say about Bush is true!
Your take on VY ,IMO is crap! We will see how well VY plays in the NFL soon enough!
:cool:

TexansLucky13
04-15-2006, 12:32 AM
Reggie Bush would be a great addition, but he's not in a position to lead the team like a QB. He just isn't. Vince is, and would be a much better leader than David Carr has been. And I think that's what this team needs. David Carr has had four years - FOUR YEARS - to do something. The article makes a great point - what if Carr's problems are not because of the OL, but are because Carr just isn't as good as we'd like him to be? At some point you have to take the right step forward.

Hmm. At some point you have to look at some stats. John Elway was not a SB QB his first four years. David Carr's stats match him almost perfectly. Want to compare him to someone in the NFL right now? Joey Harrington has the exact same stats as David Carr.... and they were drafted the same year. What is the only difference between Elway, Harrington and Carr? SACKS. David has a record breaking number of sacks, stemming from the inaugural year. Neither Harrington nor Elway had that kind of pressure. So before I go on, tell me this.

Do you honestly believe that David wouldn't have performed better if he had not had the pressure? I want you to post the answer to that. Explain to me how a QB with less pressure... a QB with time to step back, set his feet, and go through progression.... would perform the same under a stressful situation? Would Peyton Manning (Dan Marino the 2nd) perform like he does if his O-line couldn't stop the rush? Not a chance.

I am not a Carr :homer: . Honestly I don't know what to think. But I wont sit and watch people say that he should have performed better. Try putting VY in that situation. UT had a fabulous OL. The Texans do not, at the moment. I would not want to see the young stud get creamed, but I think he will understand the true meaning of pain when he is tackled by quick, unhesitant and thick LB'ers in the Big League.

Frank_The_Tank
04-15-2006, 12:49 AM
I do not agree that David Car had identical stats as John Elway for their first 4 years in the league. I do not even believe you can compare the two guys.


Games Started
Carr yr1 16 yr2 12 yr3 16 yr4 16
Elway yr1 11 yr2 15 yr3 16 yr4 16
YARDS
CARR: YR1 2592 Yr2 2013 Yr3 3531 Yr4 2488
Elway: Yr1 1663 Yr2 2598 Yr3 3891 Yr4 3485
Touchdowns
Carr: 9, 9, 16, 14
Elway: 7, 18, 22, 19

Frank_The_Tank
04-15-2006, 12:51 AM
There is a lot of hatefull commints about Vince carr in this thread?

TexansLucky13
04-15-2006, 01:23 AM
I do not agree that David Car had identical stats as John Elway for their first 4 years in the league. I do not even believe you can compare the two guys.


Games Started
Carr yr1 16 yr2 12 yr3 16 yr4 16
Elway yr1 11 yr2 15 yr3 16 yr4 16
YARDS
CARR: YR1 2592 Yr2 2013 Yr3 3531 Yr4 2488
Elway: Yr1 1663 Yr2 2598 Yr3 3891 Yr4 3485
Touchdowns
Carr: 9, 9, 16, 14
Elway: 7, 18, 22, 19

Hmm. Elway has less than 1000 more yards and 18 more TDs. I agree that the TD difference is significant, but the yardage was what I was looking at. They are close enough for comparison, but I agree if you say that they didnt have "identical" stats. I was just making a point. Harrington probably has more TDs than Carr too... but I know for a fact that Joey, David and John had only 10,000 yards by the end of their 4th season as starter. I am arguing that David could have had more impressive yardage and TDs with less pressure. Thanks for the stats, though. IMO they can be easily compared.

Frank_The_Tank
04-15-2006, 02:51 AM
Carr 60 Starts 10624 48 TD
Elway 58 Starts 11637 66 TD
1000 more yards - 18 more TDs - two fewer starts

I agree that Carr is in the same league as Joey Harrington but
David Carrs does not belong anywhere near, or in any comparison to John Elway

JAXwithanX
04-15-2006, 03:04 AM
I'm telling you guys....Reggie is the safe pick. But when it comes down to it....who is better David Carr or Domanick Davis? Sure we don't know what Carr can do with an O-line....but we do know what DD can do....and when he is healthy....its 'one of the best RB in the league' type stuff. Can we say Carr is going to be a top QB in the league with an O-line. On the other side, who knows whether Vince will pan out, now saying he is a run first QB is dumb, and apparently you never watched any of his college games (just because he took an entire team on his back and ran in the touchdown to take out the back to back defending National Champs doesn't mean he was doing it all year or hell, even game, look up the stats) but he is still a risk so thats why i am offically in the trade down camp. We have an above average RB already to justify taking Bush, and we aren't in a position to start taking risks with Vince (especially with a entirely new coaching staff...they don't want to start making those mistakes yet), so the obvious safest thing here....trade down. Could end up making the biggest impact anyways.

And when i say an above average RB im not saying DD is as good as BUsh by any means. I'm just saying that he is a RB that a team can win a Super Bowl with, and we could use talent in several other places. Now when i say trade down....i'm talking about still satying in the top 6-7. ANything below that and we better snap up Bush.

Untamed Guerillaz
04-15-2006, 10:02 AM
You know what the Texans need to do? Win. Now. Enough with all of the sentimental crap about VY and UT and Houston and what not. He's not going to do anything in this league for the next 2 seasons, if ever. If the NFL was about something else other than winning might I care about the VY drama. Take away the Rose Bowl win against a weak *** USC defense and VY would be lucky to break the top 15 in the draft.

Bush will be ready to play on the 1st down of the season. He won't be holding a clipboard. He fits your offense. VY doesn't even fit in the NFL. Forget about trading down for the sake of trading down because you're afraid or because your lust for VY cannot be sated.
what runningback ever took their team to a superbowl and dont say walter payton b/c he didn't go until they got the best defense known to man.....f.y.i......gayle sayers never went to the superbowl despite what he did for the team...oh yea barry sanders, earl campbell,jim brown,and i think eric dickerson never went also, so what does that say, if you dont know then let me tell you it means that RB is not the answer guy and QB's are the General's on the field and they make things happen.......like my mom always told me "people are afraid of what they don't understand(referring to VY)"

Texan in Japan
04-15-2006, 10:47 AM
Nicely written article, was entertaining to read. However, it still boils down to how our coaching staff and front office evaluate our current talent and draft talent. I'll be happy with any of the following guys Bush, Mario, Vince, AJ, D'Brick or VD(avis).

cap1
04-15-2006, 11:14 AM
what runningback ever took their team to a superbowl and dont say walter payton b/c he didn't go until they got the best defense known to man.....f.y.i......gayle sayers never went to the superbowl despite what he did for the team...oh yea barry sanders, earl campbell,jim brown,and i think eric dickerson never went also, so what does that say, if you dont know then let me tell you it means that RB is not the answer guy and QB's are the General's on the field and they make things happen.......like my mom always told me "people are afraid of what they don't understand(referring to VY)"

Untamed,
To answer your question. Terrell Davis won two superbowls. One of those seasons he rushed for 2,000 yards. Another running back was Jamal Lewis and he rushed for 2,000 yards. True both of these guys had other people on thier teams, but you cannot say this guy never won a superbowl. It is a team game.

vtech9
04-15-2006, 11:44 AM
Untamed,
To answer your question. Terrell Davis won two superbowls. One of those seasons he rushed for 2,000 yards. Another running back was Jamal Lewis and he rushed for 2,000 yards. True both of these guys had other people on thier teams, but you cannot say this guy never won a superbowl. It is a team game.
Hmmm, so what you are saying is we should get a 6th round RB like Terrell Davis to take us to the super bowl? Jamal Lewis was drafted with the 5th pick in the 1st round, but the year they won the Super Bowl, the Ravens won because of their defense. Lewis had 1364 yds rushing and 296 yds recieving that year. His best year, 3 years later, he had over 2000 yds rushing and 205 yds recieving, but he couldn't carry them to a super bowl.

Vinny
04-15-2006, 11:49 AM
Untamed,
To answer your question. Terrell Davis won two superbowls. If the Broncos had to get rid of Davis or Elway for whatever reason, they would get rid of Davis not Elway. RB's are a dime a dozen....QB's who come thru in the clutch are rare.

Lucky
04-15-2006, 12:17 PM
Nicely written article, was entertaining to read.
Yeah, but it was an opinion piece from the John McClain school of journalism. Make sure you only grab quotes from sources that agree with your slant. These type articles have been a dime a dozen since the Rose Bowl. Nothing new here.

MorKnolle
04-15-2006, 01:04 PM
what runningback ever took their team to a superbowl and dont say walter payton b/c he didn't go until they got the best defense known to man.....f.y.i......gayle sayers never went to the superbowl despite what he did for the team...oh yea barry sanders, earl campbell,jim brown,and i think eric dickerson never went also, so what does that say, if you dont know then let me tell you it means that RB is not the answer guy and QB's are the General's on the field and they make things happen.......like my mom always told me "people are afraid of what they don't understand(referring to VY)"

So why should any team ever draft a RB since they have never led a team to a Super Bowl? Should the Colts go drat another QB in the 1st round since RBs don't lead their teams to the Super Bowl and Peyton Manning hasn't done so either? Every player drafted has a certain degree of uncertainty, every player is a part of a team and is pretty worthless on their own, you have to draft whoever you think will improve your overall team the most and give your team the most chance to win, and that is what Kubiak will do.

Untamed Guerillaz
04-16-2006, 03:15 PM
Terell Davis had all american team with him just like walter did b/c he didnt go until they posted the best defense ever known in football just like the batimore ravens had an awesome defense when they went to the superbowl. The last time i checked isnt Elway one one of the greatest QB to play the position.....i rest my case its more elway doing than TD

MorKnolle
04-16-2006, 05:56 PM
Terell Davis had all american team with him just like walter did b/c he didnt go until they posted the best defense ever known in football just like the batimore ravens had an awesome defense when they went to the superbowl. The last time i checked isnt Elway one one of the greatest QB to play the position.....i rest my case its more elway doing than TD

Elway is indeed among the top 10 QBs of all time, but it could be equally argued that Elway was 0-4 in Super Bowls without Terrell Davis while he was 2-0 in Super Bowls with TD. I'm not sure this has become a very valid argument on either side, as anyone who wants to prove the worth of a QB (such as yourself) could find gobs of examples that "prove" your side, while someone arguing against it could just as easily come up with a list of good QBs that didn't lead their teams to championships or RBs, defenses, whoever else that were the "main" reason their team won it all. As I said a couple posts ago, every player in the entire league is just a piece of their team, and without a pretty complete team they obviously will not get very far, football is not a sport in which one guy can carry a team on his own, the old cliche is true that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. You have to find the pieces that will make the overall product as good as it can be.

kastofsna
04-16-2006, 06:08 PM
actually he was 0-3. ;) i doubt there would've been 3 if not for elway.

MorKnolle
04-16-2006, 06:22 PM
actually he was 0-3. ;) i doubt there would've been 3 if not for elway.

My bad, I knew the Broncos were 0-4 before those last two and figured Elway was there for all four of them, should have checked that before posting it.

Texansbacker
04-16-2006, 11:28 PM
Nicely written article, was entertaining to read. However, it still boils down to how our coaching staff and front office evaluate our current talent and draft talent. I'll be happy with any of the following guys Bush, Mario, Vince, AJ, D'Brick or VD(avis).


I really do hope the pick is V. Young, because every good team needs a GREAT GENERAL as we have seen with B. Rothleisberger, T. Brady, T. Aikman, J. Elway, S. Young, J. Montana, T. Bradshaw, J. Unitas....and Vince Young certainly seems to have that can do anything amaze you ability seen in both his college and high school games.....most recently the Rose Bowl. The bigger the game the better he played. The guy that can take you to, and the guy who you want leading your team in, the big game.

If Carr is indeed the man, he will have a new coaching staff with a former NFL quarterback as head coach and with a former head coach leading the o-line, along with some great weapons and firepower in A. Johnson, E. Moulds, J. Putzier, K. Walter, D. Armstrong, J. Mathis, D. Davis and V. Morency to help make his case. Should he excel in the new offense, then we can easily trade a Vince Young especially after increasing his value by having him annihilate teams during the exhibition season(s). Then again, we may still want to trade Carr. Or we may try to keep both for a while. Either way, I like the insurance V. Young provides.....outside of the mighty Sage Rosenfels or Dave Ragone (who strike fear in defenders everwhere!).

Texans draft Reggie Bush, we have a bonafide LaDanian Tomlinson.......a great back no doubt, but he has not led his team to the big game or I believe even the playoffs in the NFL. Dominick Davis is a 1,000 yard back and great receiver. 70% of the Texans offense is not the problem. It is the the other guys making up the remaining 30%. Most importantly the Capitan.