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thetexanator
04-11-2006, 10:27 PM
Overrated
Young. He has a long way to go to be an NFL quarterback. He has magical skills, but he's never taken snaps from center.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/OFF/

From cbs.

Wasnt the knock on McNair coming out of college that he was from a DIV 3 school and only played out of the shotgun?

YodAa
04-11-2006, 10:34 PM
saying that u shouldnt draft a QB jus because hes never played undercenter is a really stupid thing to do. I mean if the guy has excelled at one area than hell most likely excel at the other because hes an athlete and hes got that magic "it" that jus makes him be so good at what he does. And if worse comes to worse and the guy cant work out of that formation u say "F*$3 it!" and jus do 75% of ur plays shotgun, i mean u already know he kicks *** there

texplayer2
04-11-2006, 10:47 PM
And if worse comes to worse and the guy cant work out of that formation u say "F*$3 it!" and jus do 75% of ur plays shotgun, i mean u already know he kicks *** there

That was in College, the pro ranks aren't filled with students and a few monsters on D. Offense's at the College level have a much better chance of success than at the pro level. Ex....74-10 blowouts.

whiskeyrbl
04-11-2006, 10:57 PM
McNair sat for 2 years before he took over ala VY 2-3 years on bench to learn an NFL system.

Big B Texan Fan
04-12-2006, 02:05 AM
When it's all said and done, VY will make McNair look like a practice squad QB.

HJam72
04-12-2006, 03:08 AM
I predict that Young will become the first QB ever to catch most of his own hail marry passes. :)

TreWardTxn
04-12-2006, 09:35 AM
No real scout will tell you that they don't think Young can take snaps from under center, all they can say is that he didn't do it much in college...

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 09:37 AM
playing under center means nothing. he actually took a lot of snaps under center his sophomore year. it's how he understands the offense that matters, and he didn't then, so i doubt he will anytime soon. he had success in a spread zone-read offense, and obviously, you won't find anything like that in the NFL. throw in his average arm, his poor mechanics and terrible footwork, and no, the CBS article isn't harsh, it's right on the money. he should be a WR.

Mike Kerns
04-12-2006, 09:44 AM
I predict that Young will become the first QB ever to catch most of his own hail marry passes. :)
Exactly. What's with these callers on 610am that say "After Vince wins 2 or 3 Super Bowls and is in Canton, we will know the Texans made the wrong decision." Tom Brady has won 3 super bowls and there are plenty who argue that he may not be a first ballot hall of famer. You can't KNOW that someone will win multiple super bowls and be in the hall of fame. Sorry, know I am rambling. I will get down now...


http://www.yankeepotroast.org/img/soapbox.gif

TreWardTxn
04-12-2006, 09:52 AM
Scouts have said his arm is just as accurate, and stronger than Leinart's, his footwork is the strongest part of his throwing mechanics, and every college QB has to learn reads in an NFL offense against an NFL defense. Even Carr, our 5 year "veteran" is going to be learning a system from virtual scratch...

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 09:55 AM
his footwork is the strongest part of his throwing mechanics
LMAO. are you kidding me? NO SCOUT has ever said that, NO ONE. if they have, they have NO clue what they're talking about. show me proof of this.

Lucky
04-12-2006, 09:55 AM
Young. He has a long way to go to be an NFL quarterback. He has magical skills, but he's never taken snaps from center.
Actually, Young has taken snaps from center. The Horns didn't switch to the spread offense until '04.

McNair did play in a shotgun offense at Alcorn. So did Alex Smith, last year's #1 pick. Ben Roethlisberger operated out of the shotgun for much of his collegiate career. As did Byron Leftwich. I could go on.

The difference that Savage and others are pointing to is that these QBs for the most part stayed back and looked for their secondary receivers. Young often took off after his primary receiver was covered. And why not? The results at that level speak for themselves. However, the critics will say that Vince won't last if he runs 10-12 times a game in the NFL as he did in college.

That Culpepper, McNabb, and Vick's rushing totals have dropped over the years is evidence that the running QB won't be able to run forever. If that holds true for Young, then he has to be evaluated by what he does with his arm. Who would you rather see passing the ball for your NFL team? Leinart, Cutler, or Young? That's the question teams have to be asking themselves.

BREAZE
04-12-2006, 10:14 AM
There are many certainties in the world. Death, taxes, Bush breaking long gains for the Texans, and VY getting a Super bowl ring fitted for his middle finger...

TreWardTxn
04-12-2006, 10:20 AM
LMAO. are you kidding me? NO SCOUT has ever said that, NO ONE. if they have, they have NO clue what they're talking about. show me proof of this.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9329030

http://football.about.com/od/nationalfootballleague/p/vinceyoung.htm

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9358699/2

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/don_banks/03/23/don/index.html

There are numerous more scouts I can't reference because I heard them on talk radio or TV and can't find their quotes in print, but you get the point. A guy can't have a good showing throwing a football if his footwork is trashy, that's where it all starts. The fact he did a good job let's you know his footwork is proficient. But who cares? QBs don't get to stand still as long as they want in the pocket, at some point they have to be able to roll out or scramble, and no one can argue with Young's ability to throw on the run...

BREAZE
04-12-2006, 10:30 AM
What did the scouts say about Joe Montana? Show me a group of scouts that are always right and I'll make :pigfly: ...

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 10:30 AM
*sigh*

only the about.com link said he has good footwork. which is hysterical as they say leinart's footwork isn't good yet vince's is. THAT'S a big joke. leinart has better feet than several NFL quarterbacks, i have NO clue what this guy is talking about.

the others didn't mention it at all. not sure why you would use those as examples.

that being said, watch the NFL draft special on ESPN. merril hoge went into detail on young's feet. his front leg is set wrong when he throws, and that's mostly due to just standing there behind texas's great line all day from the shotgun. throwing on a run isn't a problem.

jgite
04-12-2006, 11:51 AM
And Merril Hodge said that VY and Leinart are barely first round talents. Mel Kiper was about to flip his wig.

Vinny
04-12-2006, 11:52 AM
And Merril Hodge said that VY and Leinart are barely first round talents. Mel Kiper was about to flip his wig.If you have watched Hodge over the years you know he bags on QB's at the top of the draft every year.

Porky
04-12-2006, 11:56 AM
And Merril Hodge said that VY and Leinart are barely first round talents. Mel Kiper was about to flip his wig.

Actually, according to PFW draft circle insider, several teams have each as a 2nd rounder, but the consensus if you throw in all 32 teams, is that they are both top 10 talents. I actually think Young is going to be a much better pro than Lienart, but will need much more time. Lienart is what he is, but he can probably start as a rook.

dwilt72
04-12-2006, 12:03 PM
Merril Hoge smokes crack. There is no way he can actually believe the crap he says!

As far as taking snaps from center, I've heard VY say that the UT offense is an off-shoot of Indy's offense. And where does Peyton take most of his snaps? Could it be the shotgun?

Texans_Chick
04-12-2006, 12:08 PM
Overrated
Young. He has a long way to go to be an NFL quarterback. He has magical skills, but he's never taken snaps from center.



Yes.

That is too harsh. And untrue.

And is typical of sports reporting and talk radio these days. Formula: 1. Say something provocative without regard to the truth; 2. Get attention for yourself by saying the provocative thing; 3. If you are wrong, so what, by then there is some new pot to stir.

Sports reporting is not the only arena of attention hoing, it's just everywhere. As a society we put a premium on speed, sensationalism, and short-attention span gossiping and less on responsible accurate, meaningful reporting. Not a news flash, I know.

Dr. Toro
04-12-2006, 12:10 PM
No real scout will tell you that they don't think Young can take snaps from under center, all they can say is that he didn't do it much in college...

Fisher said he doesn't necessarily have to sit, he could play immediately. The comparison to McNair falls short cuz VY was as well scouted at this level as he will be at the next... nothing he was doing was a big surprise to anybody he was playing. You can study film and play against the scout team all you want, but nothing will adequately prepare you for a 6'5" 230 QB with the agility of a runing back.

TreWardTxn
04-12-2006, 12:17 PM
*sigh*

only the about.com link said he has good footwork. which is hysterical as they say leinart's footwork isn't good yet vince's is. THAT'S a big joke. leinart has better feet than several NFL quarterbacks, i have NO clue what this guy is talking about.

the others didn't mention it at all. not sure why you would use those as examples.

that being said, watch the NFL draft special on ESPN. merril hoge went into detail on young's feet. his front leg is set wrong when he throws, and that's mostly due to just standing there behind texas's great line all day from the shotgun. throwing on a run isn't a problem.


http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9358699/2

As an example, he cited Young's work on three-, five- and seven-step drops. When Rhome first demonstrated for his understudy, showing him how to retreat seven paces before steadying himself to throw, Young shook his head in disbelief.

"Man," he said, "that seems like a long way back there."

And it was. Especially after Young tried it. Where Rhome wanted him to set up eight-to-eight-and-half yards behind center, Young was taking it to 10 -- largely because he has such an enormous stride.

No problem. The two made corrections, and Young began to get his steps down. He shortened his stride. His confidence grew. Setting his feet wasn't an issue. Neither was delivering the football, and don't take it from me. Ask the people who attended his workout.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/don_banks/03/23/don/index.html

Scouts seemed to like Young's footwork enough when he went into three-, five- and seven-step drops after taking simulated snaps from center, and his athleticism was on full display when he threw the ball on rollouts. His 40 or so passes were equally divided among short, intermediate and deep patterns, and he threw them all with proficiency, albeit in that sidearm delivery that still makes some talent evaluators a bit nervous.

"He's a great athlete, and he looked very comfortable in dropping back,'' the NFC-club personnel man said. "His thing is going to be learning at the next level. He's going to have a learning curve like every other young quarterback. It'll be, with him, working to read defenses and recognize looks, and going through his progressions. But there's no question he had a great workout.''

Since I have to spell it out for you; what are you expecting scouts to say while a guy throws against air, how ecstatic about his feet can a scout be in that situation?
Now you find me something, anything that says Young's footwork was horrible during any of his workouts, 'cause I sure ain't seen it...

The scouts were all wrong on Montana because they didn't notice his footwork (Walsh did), they were all hung up over his lack of arm strength.

And let me just throw this in...
"If anyone is going to make a mistake on him," said Rhome, "it's because they're looking at him on film. He's not the most polished guy on film. But look at him now: He's such a quick learner. He did what he was asked to do."

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 12:21 PM
you're talking about his workouts? i thought we were discussing the footwork he's showed in the games he played. i don't care about that, it's very rare for anyone to show bad footwork during those workouts. guys like byron leftwich had great looking throwing mechanics during his workout at marshall, but if you watch him now, he's still doing that little hitch in his throwing motion.

young doesn't have good footwork. and nothing there really says he does, it just says they like his footwork "enough." also, no indication that they like his footwork more than his throwing mechanics. just watch the games, his feet are never set correctly.

and the joe montana thing sorta proves what i'm talking about.

dalemurphy
04-12-2006, 12:39 PM
If you have watched Hodge over the years you know he bags on QB's at the top of the draft every year.


exactly. he seems to know what he's talking about.

Alex Smith
Phillip Rivers
Tim Couch
David Carr... are all top 5 QBs drafted in the past 5 years who have far underperformed their draft position.

It usually takes 3 years before the rookie QB is an asset to the team, even if they aren't a bust. So, I agree with Merrill Hoge that very few QBs should be drafted high in the first round.

TreWardTxn
04-12-2006, 12:49 PM
Well, I like the fact that a guy can be a proficient passer at the collegiate level and still have room to improve his game. Look at the improvement Simms has made in his game once he received actual coaching. If Young were to be tutored by someone like Gary Kubiak, all that potential would be tapped into quickly. I like how you think the incorrect placement of a front foot, something that is so obviously correctable, deters you from thinking a player can be an awesome talent. Young's biggest question mark is being able to read and react to NFL defenses and that's what coaches are supposed to help facilitate...

cuppacoffee
04-12-2006, 01:03 PM
http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9358699/2

As an example, he cited Young's work on three-, five- and seven-step drops. When Rhome first demonstrated for his understudy, showing him how to retreat seven paces before steadying himself to throw, Young shook his head in disbelief.

"Man," he said, "that seems like a long way back there."

And it was. Especially after Young tried it. Where Rhome wanted him to set up eight-to-eight-and-half yards behind center, Young was taking it to 10 -- largely because he has such an enormous stride.

No problem. The two made corrections, and Young began to get his steps down. He shortened his stride. His confidence grew. Setting his feet wasn't an issue. Neither was delivering the football, and don't take it from me. Ask the people who attended his workout.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/don_banks/03/23/don/index.html

Scouts seemed to like Young's footwork enough when he went into three-, five- and seven-step drops after taking simulated snaps from center, and his athleticism was on full display when he threw the ball on rollouts. His 40 or so passes were equally divided among short, intermediate and deep patterns, and he threw them all with proficiency, albeit in that sidearm delivery that still makes some talent evaluators a bit nervous.

"He's a great athlete, and he looked very comfortable in dropping back,'' the NFC-club personnel man said. "His thing is going to be learning at the next level. He's going to have a learning curve like every other young quarterback. It'll be, with him, working to read defenses and recognize looks, and going through his progressions. But there's no question he had a great workout.''

Since I have to spell it out for you; what are you expecting scouts to say while a guy throws against air, how ecstatic about his feet can a scout be in that situation?
Now you find me something, anything that says Young's footwork was horrible during any of his workouts, 'cause I sure ain't seen it...

The scouts were all wrong on Montana because they didn't notice his footwork (Walsh did), they were all hung up over his lack of arm strength.

And let me just throw this in...
"If anyone is going to make a mistake on him," said Rhome, "it's because they're looking at him on film. He's not the most polished guy on film. But look at him now: He's such a quick learner. He did what he was asked to do."

Take all this with a grain of salt..........Rhome was on Youngs agents payroll at the time. VY may turn out to be a great QB..maybe not. Only time will tell.

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 01:09 PM
Well, I like the fact that a guy can be a proficient passer at the collegiate level and still have room to improve his game. Look at the improvement Simms has made in his game once he received actual coaching. If Young were to be tutored by someone like Gary Kubiak, all that potential would be tapped into quickly. I like how you think the incorrect placement of a front foot, something that is so obviously correctable, deters you from thinking a player can be an awesome talent. Young's biggest question mark is being able to read and react to NFL defenses and that's what coaches are supposed to help facilitate...
i nevre said that was his biggest flaw or what would keep him from being a bad player. in fact, i sorta just threw it in after i talked about the fact that he played in a zone-read offense at texas. his footwork is bad, but i know it's not his worst trait. and i don't think he's an awesome talent, i think he's just like any other QB to come out of a similar system. matt jones is an awesome talent, and had he played at texas, would be looked at in the same way as young is now. same with antwaan randle el.

and chris simms is still a ways off. ironically his biggest problem is his feet. he gets more passes batted down than anyone; he just can't step up and find the throwing lanes.

Dr. Toro
04-12-2006, 01:31 PM
i nevre said that was his biggest flaw or what would keep him from being a bad player. in fact, i sorta just threw it in after i talked about the fact that he played in a zone-read offense at texas. his footwork is bad, but i know it's not his worst trait. and i don't think he's an awesome talent, i think he's just like any other QB to come out of a similar system. matt jones is an awesome talent, and had he played at texas, would be looked at in the same way as young is now. same with antwaan randle el.

and chris simms is still a ways off. ironically his biggest problem is his feet. he gets more passes batted down than anyone; he just can't step up and find the throwing lanes.

Get out of town. Jones didn't get a sniff at QB in the draft, and you're gonna say he'd have been the best passer in college if he played for Texas? Workouts don't count, nor do on field results, nor do intangibles. Only minutiae, eh.

TheOgre
04-12-2006, 01:32 PM
If you have watched Hodge over the years you know he bags on QB's at the top of the draft every year.

I think Hoge takes some of his positions for ratings.

Vinny
04-12-2006, 01:37 PM
I think Hoge takes some of his positions for ratings.I agree...he constantly bashes QB's on NFL matchup with Jaws....its about the ratings. To him, it's all about the "factor back"

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 01:43 PM
Get out of town. Jones didn't get a sniff at QB in the draft, and you're gonna say he'd have been the best passer in college if he played for Texas? Workouts don't count, nor do on field results, nor do intangibles. Only minutiae, eh.
jones is a better athlete than young and has a better arm, so i don't see why he wouldn't have been a better passer at texas. as i said before, being a good passer at texas last year wouldn't be hard due to the offense. i'm just saying coming out as a prospect, jones would've been looked at the same way as young is now, because the offense as well as just being on texas makes a player look good. and if young went to arkansas (or indiana), we'd be looking at him like jones. an interesting athlete that you're not too sure what position he'll play, but he'll be good to have.

Vinny
04-12-2006, 01:50 PM
jones is a better athlete than young and has a better arm, so i don't see why he wouldn't have been a better passer at texas.Your credibility is shot. Nobody in the NFL projected Jones as an NFL QB...while obviously everyone projects Young as a first round QB. Your Young hatred ruins your otherwise coherent posts.

TreWardTxn
04-12-2006, 02:02 PM
Thank you for completly discrediting yourself. Matt Jones was nowhere near the passer Young was in college and the talent level around him doesn't account for how large that disparity was. Jones is probably faster than Young in a straight line, but Vince is much more elusive and can change direction quicker. The throwing comparison is Young in a landslide.

I will say if Randle El were 6'0'' he would be an NFL QB for some team, but once again, NFL biases and inability to tailor systems to great talents prevents that. Doug Flutie could easily play QB in the NFL if coaches weren't afraid of his height. On that same note, if Matt Jones could throw like Young or better, he would be an NFL QB. Scouts don't care about the talent you have if you are physically capable of making the throws, it's the organizations job to surround you with talent. So what other excuses do you have that need debunking?

Texans_Chick
04-12-2006, 02:03 PM
Your credibility is shot. Nobody in the NFL projected Jones as an NFL QB...while obviously everyone projects Young as a first round QB. Your Young hatred ruins your otherwise coherent posts.

Agreed.

From a statistical standpoint, Matt Jones and Vince Young in their last year of college aren't even close as QBs:

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Matt Jones (last college season), Drafted 21st (round 1) 6'6" 242 lbs

2073 passing yards
57.2 completion percentage
264 attempts for 151 completions, 7.9 av yards per attempt
15 passing TDs with 12 INTs
83 rushes for 622 yards, 7.5 av yards per attempt, 6 rushing TDs


If you say that Matt Jones' stats would be better if he played for Texas, I would say that VY's stats might be better had he played for Arkansas because he might not have been out of the game in the third quarter of many games because of the blow outs.

And if you talk about VY's stud receiving corp, I will point out that at the beginning of the season people were wondering if VY and Texas could succeed in the passing game because the receiving corp was so inexperienced.

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 02:36 PM
Your credibility is shot. Nobody in the NFL projected Jones as an NFL QB...while obviously everyone projects Young as a first round QB. Your Young hatred ruins your otherwise coherent posts.
it's almost like you just copied what i said word-for-word, since you're saying EXACTLY what i said (except for the part of me being stupid). did i say matt jones is a better QB prospect? no, i just said he'd be THOUGHT OF as a better NFL prospect by the general public and scouts had he played at texas, in the zone-read offense with the talent around him that young had last year. jones is NOT a NFL-calibur quarterback, and shouldn't be looked at as one. the same can be said for young. there is no young hatred here. i said the exact same thing about alex smith last year. there's nothing about either one of these guys that makes me want to draft them in the first round. if you ARE going to make them a quarterback, then you sure as hell shouldn't use a top 10 pick on them, as they're just too big of projects.

treward: during young's sophomore year, playing in a offense very similar to what matt jones ran at arkansas, jones had better numbers basically across the board. now if jones played in the same offense? who knows how his numbers would look compared to young's, but just based on pure talent, i would ASSUME jones' would be better. and scouts don't look if a QB can make all the throws, as evidenced with guys like michael vick. vick was never that accurate at vatech, but he was drafted as a QB because of the cannon he has. young put up good numbers, but doesn't have a great arm. and as discussed before, the good numbers are primarily a result of the zone-read offense, so IF he was at arkansas, he wouldn't be projected as a quarterback.

texans_chick: before the 2002 season, people doubted whether miami would be able to run the ball, because clinton portis left for the NFL and frank gore tore his ACL before the season. enter willis mcgahee, who had the best season ever at miami running the ball. it doesn't really matter what the preseason thoughts of the team are, it's what the results are. there was never a game this past season where texas' receivers didn't outmatch the opposition's defensive backs.

TreWardTxn
04-12-2006, 03:16 PM
This is getting more nonsensical as it progesses. So now talent evaluators only care about what school a prospect went to and that determines whether they THINK said prospect can be a success. If that's the case, then how the hell does someone like that Harvard kid get drafted at QB? If the school matters, he should have never even sniffed training camp. Listen, DJ Shockley is not going to play QB, Brad Smith is not playing QB in the NFL. It's not because of what school they went to, but because they have not exhibited adequate ability in throwing the football. Scouts care about arm strength, touch can be developed through experience, not power. That's why Vick is an NFL QB.

You have it confused; if Houston Nutt felt Jones could be successful in a zone-read offense, he would have put him there. Besides, Young's redshirt sophmore season was 2004-2005 and he ran the same offense he did his redshirt junior season, so you're comparison can't be correct. If you are alluding to Young's redshirt freshman season, in which he didn't get significant playing time until the OU game because Mack thought Mock would work out (dumbest move ever on his part), then you are making a completly unequal comparison in comparing a full year starter to a part-timer and a first year player to a second year starter...

It turned out Willis McGahee was a first round talent, despite having his knee obliterated in the final game of his collegiate career. It's also no coincidence, as Miami has come to be known as "Running Back U." The bottom line is, the receiving corp. was young, undeveloped, and paled in comparison to those they had in years before. However, Young called his own practices over the summer and developed the playing relationship they needed to be successful. By the time all those guys graduate, there may be one receiver (Sweed) who proves to be a first round talent, and I'm not even sure about him...

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 03:50 PM
it has nothign to do with what school they went to, it's with the talent on the team they play on, as well as the coaching staff and the general matching up against opposing defenses. and there were still plenty of scouts that had young pegged as an "athlete" and not a pure quarterback before the rose bowl. also, you're 100% wrong that mack brown used the same offense in the 2004 season as the 2005 season. there was a lot more I-formations and loneback sets with cedric benson, and young saw a lot of snaps under center. and i didn't say the receiving corps was great, i simply said they outmached every defensive back unit they faced, the lone exception POSSIBLY being ohio state, but even then they showed a much better physical presence than what ohio state expected. the mcgahee analogy was just to show that preseason projections aren't always accurate (duh).

and last, houston nutt didn't run a zone-read offense because of the quality runningbacks on the roster, and they were better utilized from a more traditional set. they've never had good receivers, as arkansas can't recruit for both a passing AND running offense. texas has blue-chippers at all the key positions.

Mailman04
04-12-2006, 04:16 PM
It's not too harsh. The truth hurts about the most overrated player in the draft....Vince Young.

TreWardTxn
04-12-2006, 04:27 PM
OK, so now Young has taken Texas to two Rose Bowl titles utilizing two separate offensive systems (which is somewhat accurate, and the reason why it makes no sense some people think Young can't take snaps undercenter).

If level of surrounding talent is what you are judging Young on, then you must think Leinart will be an absolute bust. You're claiming that Young had to raise his level of play to match his teammates, when every other person of merit on the subject notes that Young makes his teammates better. If WRs were wide open, it was because Young bought time by scrambling, if Thomas is wide open time and time again over the middle, it's because the LB or S is watching Young.

I'll say it again, if talent level is all it takes to win NCs, then why didn't Simms do it at Texas? He was surrounded by much more talent, and is a much more "prototypical" NFL QB. It could be that Simms sucks (that's what I thought, but he seems decent now) or maybe Young is actually a good QB; novel idea

All I can say is, Young is an NFL caliber QB, and if you refuse to believe that fine, but don't try to justify it with faulty rationalizations. You don't have to think he's the greatest thing ever, but you can't take away his exhibitions of talent and ability...

TheOgre
04-12-2006, 04:38 PM
I agree...he constantly bashes QB's on NFL matchup with Jaws....its about the ratings. To him, it's all about the "factor back"

You could almost have the "factor back" drinking game.

10 drinks every time Jaws supported a RB that didn't play for Vermeil or the Eagles, or Hoge supported a QB that didn't play for the Steelers. The 10 drink rule would come into play once or twice a season.

kastofsna
04-12-2006, 05:22 PM
OK, so now Young has taken Texas to two Rose Bowl titles utilizing two separate offensive systems (which is somewhat accurate, and the reason why it makes no sense some people think Young can't take snaps undercenter).

If level of surrounding talent is what you are judging Young on, then you must think Leinart will be an absolute bust. You're claiming that Young had to raise his level of play to match his teammates, when every other person of merit on the subject notes that Young makes his teammates better. If WRs were wide open, it was because Young bought time by scrambling, if Thomas is wide open time and time again over the middle, it's because the LB or S is watching Young.

I'll say it again, if talent level is all it takes to win NCs, then why didn't Simms do it at Texas? He was surrounded by much more talent, and is a much more "prototypical" NFL QB. It could be that Simms sucks (that's what I thought, but he seems decent now) or maybe Young is actually a good QB; novel idea

All I can say is, Young is an NFL caliber QB, and if you refuse to believe that fine, but don't try to justify it with faulty rationalizations. You don't have to think he's the greatest thing ever, but you can't take away his exhibitions of talent and ability...
actually that first rose bowl title is even more of a testament to how overrated he is. he has a below average year by any QB's standard on a team that talented, and they lose one game to oklahoma and find themselves in a BCS bowl. brown let young run loose in that game, he even said so himself.

i never said that. i said young is overrated and his teammates don't get the credit they deserve. all i've heard about leinart is how he had all these great players around him while young did everything by himself, which is RIDICULOUS. and yes, the safety would watch young, as they would alex smith in utah's offense. it's the zone read, it's designed to warrant the defense's attention towards the QB's scrambling ability, or the possibility of the handoff. young was very good at that. doesn't mean anything in relation to the NFL.

or maybe young is a good QB in the system brown implemented? if they ran the offense simms operated under (similar to what they ran the year prior when young was average at best), they wouldn't have won the championship. again, that's good for texas, but not good for young's projection into the NFL.

young should be a WR.

asteroidblues
04-21-2006, 05:42 PM
on sportcenter today:


He said as a QB, Vince Young should be drafted on the second day and any coach who takes him in the first round(or day for that matter) will be fired in 2 years.

He also said that Matt Leinart should be drafted in the second round not the 1st.

The only QB he said should be taken in the 1st rd was Jay Cutler.

wags
04-21-2006, 05:45 PM
Last year he said Mike Williams was the best player in the draft. :ok:

kastofsna
04-21-2006, 06:05 PM
actually hoge was very critical of mike williams. it was kiper who said williams was the best player in the draft.

wags
04-21-2006, 06:13 PM
actually hoge was very critical of mike williams. it was kiper who said williams was the best player in the draft.

Merrill said Mike Williams would be a beast in a WCO offense. Mike went to a west coast team and ...........

kastofsna
04-21-2006, 06:14 PM
no...hoge said many times he was THE most overrated player in the draft and he should bulk up and convert to TE. once again you're probably thinking of kiper.

wags
04-21-2006, 06:21 PM
no...hoge said many times he was THE most overrated player in the draft and he should bulk up and convert to TE. once again you're probably thinking of kiper.

You my friend are ............... correct!!!!!!!!!!

I thought it was Merril but apparently not. Damn, stupid, memory loss.

:bag: (Wipes egg off face and reads more about Dewey's presidency)

kastofsna
04-21-2006, 06:25 PM
all of those ESPN guys sort of melt into one giant talking mouth.