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Nighthawk
04-07-2006, 07:48 PM
This is the triumph of the small-minded. I'm stunned. This board has gone dead.

Yeah, I know it's unlikely we'll make the smart move and take Young, or better yet, trade down and still take Young, but for his workout here not to cause the slightest stir is thought prokoking.

Maybe it's just as well. Bush will be fine, or, if we're lucky, somebody else will want Bush enough to make a decent offer for him (and I think we'd trade the #1 for anything approaching a decent offer).

Right now Bush is the greatest college football player who ever played the game who nobody in the NFL really wants! Crazy!

Mike Kerns
04-07-2006, 07:52 PM
I am pro bush, but I was surprised there wasn't that much discussion on here as well.:confused:

texan279
04-07-2006, 07:53 PM
Once again, I'll ask the question that I have asked on here so many times and never gotten a response to...If we were going to draft a QB, why would we draft Vince Young when he is not even the top rated QB in this draft?

Maddict5
04-07-2006, 07:54 PM
weren't you listening to reggie? whats the point in fans discussing it when they know we're not taking him...

Riley
04-07-2006, 08:02 PM
Once again, I'll ask the question that I have asked on here so many times and never gotten a response to...If we were going to draft a QB, why would we draft Vince Young when he is not even the top rated QB in this draft?


Actually, according to many of the draft experts VY is the top QB in the draft. ML has fallen.

swtbound07
04-07-2006, 08:06 PM
This is the triumph of the small-minded. I'm stunned. This board has gone dead.

Yeah, I know it's unlikely we'll make the smart move and take Young, or better yet, trade down and still take Young, but for his workout here not to cause the slightest stir is thought prokoking.

Maybe it's just as well. Bush will be fine, or, if we're lucky, somebody else will want Bush enough to make a decent offer for him (and I think we'd trade the #1 for anything approaching a decent offer).

Right now Bush is the greatest college football player who ever played the game who nobody in the NFL really wants! Crazy!


i live in florida and ahve gotten zero information about it...im dying of curiousity

tulexan
04-07-2006, 08:12 PM
I too am shocked at the lack of discussion. I must have missed the white flags.

LoneStarState
04-07-2006, 08:13 PM
The Texans had VY in today for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. Out of obligation to all the VY fans - because if they didn't at least have him work out, there would always be smack talk.

2. Because they are actually considering him - and extended Carr's contract to help tutor him along.

I think we all know that it's 95-99% that the Texans will draft Bush. Sorry, no trade down. How many picks would it take to equal with Bush brings to the table. A running back with explosive and elusive speed. A reciever who can catch the ball who is explosive and has elusive speed. A kick returner who is explosive and has elusive speed. By all accounts, that may be equivalent to at least 2 high first round picks and maybe a high second round pick... this year. Hmmm... not one team has that to offer.

For those who think it will be a big mistake to pass on VY. It would be a bigger mistake to pass on Reggie Bush - the Texans know that.

Dr. Toro
04-07-2006, 08:15 PM
Once again, I'll ask the question that I have asked on here so many times and never gotten a response to...If we were going to draft a QB, why would we draft Vince Young when he is not even the top rated QB in this draft?

A. Leinart doesn't have decent mobility, which Kubiak's O demands. He would be a step back from Carr in this regard.
B. He gets a lot of pub because he's safe... i've never heard anybody talk of tremendous upside. He'll be good quickly but not necessarily great. He's not the prospect Palmer was.
C. Carr is servicable, but a truly dynamic QB like Young makes you think twice... just like the Bush/DD situation. Imagine if people thought Deangelo Williams was the top rated back (he was for a while), would you take him instead of a guy with better upside/playmaking ability and diverse talents.
D. Marketing matters. The biggest gaffe from a PR/marketing standpoint would be to pass on two unseen talents, a local hero at the same position and an exciting guy like Bush, for a pocket passer.
E. Top rated by national consensus doesn't necessarily mean the best thing for this team, staff, or town.

LoneStarState
04-07-2006, 08:17 PM
E. Top rated by national consensus doesn't necessarily mean the best thing for this team, staff, or town.
Just as local consensus doesn't necessarily mean the best thing for this team, staff, or town...

Maddict5
04-07-2006, 08:19 PM
E. Top rated by national consensus doesn't necessarily mean the best thing for this team, staff, or town.

true, but in this case, it does

El Amigo Invisible
04-07-2006, 08:25 PM
Does anyone know if David was around? How is he taking it?

LoneStarState
04-07-2006, 08:27 PM
What's interesting is that even the Chronicle is relatively subdued about the VY visit, too...

Of course, Rich Lord makes up for it all...

tulexan
04-07-2006, 08:32 PM
Did Rich Lord ask Vince about Reggie?

Napa Auto Parts
04-07-2006, 08:35 PM
Once again, I'll ask the question that I have asked on here so many times and never gotten a response to...If we were going to draft a QB, why would we draft Vince Young when he is not even the top rated QB in this draft?



Matt is good he is a safe pick but for our style of football he would be no bueno. matt is just the most NFL ready QB now but he's upside is no were near what VY is and that has nothing to do that VY is from houston.
the only time i saw Matt Leinart VS Vince Young they both had great games VY just proved he wanted it more. by me saying this doesnt mean i want VY i want what is best for the team.:stirpot:

Mailman04
04-07-2006, 08:36 PM
Good, no use to waste the top pick in the draft on Vince Young.

MasterC25
04-07-2006, 08:52 PM
This is the triumph of the small-minded. I'm stunned. This board has gone dead.

Yeah, I know it's unlikely we'll make the smart move and take Young, or better yet, trade down and still take Young, but for his workout here not to cause the slightest stir is thought prokoking.

Maybe it's just as well. Bush will be fine, or, if we're lucky, somebody else will want Bush enough to make a decent offer for him (and I think we'd trade the #1 for anything approaching a decent offer).

Right now Bush is the greatest college football player who ever played the game who nobody in the NFL really wants! Crazy!

Every team in the league knows that in order to get Bush then they would have to surrender this draft and maybe all of next years pick to the Texans. So everybody is just surrendering the idea that Bush will be a Texans. Nobody tried to trade up to Houston or Chicago when they both got Hakeem and Jordan in the 86 NBA Draft.

Runner
04-07-2006, 08:56 PM
This is the triumph of the small-minded.

What does that mean? Whose responsibility is it to discuss Young's visit? Are the ones who can't enough of Vince and don't discuss him now the small minded ones, or the ones who aren't interested in Vince required to discuss him?

swtbound07
04-07-2006, 08:58 PM
What does that mean? Whose responsibility is it to discuss Young's visit?

not only that, i dont know how it freaking went...anybody got some info?

Ibar_Harry
04-07-2006, 08:58 PM
I believe their are a lot of NFL types who think Cutler might be the best of the QB's. I think its in the eyes of the beholder and their is no clear cut best. That in facts helps Bush, because he is the best of his lot. This is why Bush probably is a safer choice to many. Each of the 3 QB's have their weaknesses and strengths. There are no guarnatees not even Bush and I favor Bush at this point over others.

El Amigo Invisible
04-07-2006, 08:59 PM
What does that mean? Whose responsibility is it to discuss Young's visit? Are the ones who can't enough of Vince and don't discuss him now the small minded ones, or the ones who aren't interested in Vince required to discuss him?

Whose? LOL. Do DAt Dere.

Mr. White
04-07-2006, 09:04 PM
I missed the interview today, but I caught a highlight of it on the 610 Sportsflash....

All I heard was him talking about the drills he ran....can't remember specifics. It was about a 10 secound blurb.

Runner
04-07-2006, 09:06 PM
Whose? LOL. Do DAt Dere.

Please clarify your comment.

Honoring Earl 34
04-07-2006, 09:11 PM
It would be a true stunner if the Texans drafted VY and kept Carr . With all the upper level talent in the top 10 players if we don't come up with a starter I'm giving up and joining Football Anonimous .

Reggie may also be the best WR in the draft along with being the best RB . I also think he is a guy you can build around .

Texans_Chick
04-07-2006, 09:20 PM
Link AP "Young says Texans may make him No. 1 pick" (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12211961/)

The former Texas quarterback said Friday he still thinks his hometown team is open to drafting him.

“That’s why I believe that I came here today,” Young said. “You never know what is going on. A lot of people say Reggie is going to be here, but you never know.”

You know, here is my random thought of the evening. I know that all sorts of people think that Brees played better because of Phillip Rivers pushing him.

It may be that the Vince talk, the Vince on-site interviews, etc, is a way of pushing Carr even if we don't draft Vince. That there is the spector of the Texans Vince that coulda been that might give Carr an extra nudge this season. Anyone who is competitive in Carr's shoes would feel that way.

I saw only a part of an interview with Vince on local TV. Only caught enough of it to say that he had a really sharp suit on.

kcwilson
04-07-2006, 09:27 PM
You know, here is my random thought of the evening. I know that all sorts of people think that Brees played better because of Phillip Rivers pushing him.

I don't buy the Rivers pushing him theory... maybe the 'no one can cover Gates and Tomlinson' theory had more to do with it.

Brees 2005 - 89.2 rating 24TD 15 INT Gates 1101 yds 10 TD
Brees 2004 - 104 rating 27TD 7 INT Gates 964 yds 13 TD
Brees 2003 - 67.5 rating 11TD 15 INT Gates 389 yds 2TD
Brees 2002 - 76.9 rating 17TD 16 INT Gates not in league

Surround a QB with talent, and the talent will show. Football is a team sport and I believe with AJ, Moulds, Bush, Davis, that Carr has a solid year.

tulexan
04-07-2006, 09:28 PM
It may be that the Vince talk, the Vince on-site interviews, etc, is a way of pushing Carr even if we don't draft Vince. That there is the spector of the Texans Vince that coulda been that might give Carr an extra nudge this season. Anyone who is competitive in Carr's shoes would feel that way.


Interesting idea. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the logic behind their pursual of Vince this offseason.

Dr. Toro
04-07-2006, 09:28 PM
To further illustrate my point about Young's unique talent, in Len Pasquarelli's latest tipsheet on ESPN insider, he says Green Bay is seriously considering him regardless of what Brett Favre does next year, and regardless of the fact that they drafted a 1st round QB in '05.

tulexan
04-07-2006, 09:32 PM
I don't buy the Rivers pushing him theory... maybe the 'no one can cover Gates and Tomlinson' theory had more to do with it.

Brees 2005 - 89.2 rating 24TD 15 INT Gates 1101 yds 10 TD
Brees 2004 - 104 rating 27TD 7 INT Gates 964 yds 13 TD
Brees 2003 - 67.5 rating 11TD 15 INT Gates 389 yds 2TD
Brees 2002 - 76.9 rating 17TD 16 INT Gates not in league

Surround a QB with talent, and the talent will show. Football is a team sport and I believe with AJ, Moulds, Bush, Davis, that Carr has a solid year.

I might be wrong, but I believe Texans Chick was saying that making David think that he might be replaced by Vince would motivate him to work harder. The Texans might have had no intention of ever drafting him, but by making David think that it was possible, they could push him a little to be more competitive and work harder in the offseason.

Runner
04-07-2006, 09:34 PM
I think better questions would be:

Why is it that the new coaching staff is working with the entire team for the first time and nobody cares?

The roles and repsonsibilities of the players on the roster are being worked out right now. Where's the press? Where's the discussion?

kcwilson
04-07-2006, 09:37 PM
I might be wrong, but I believe Texans Chick was saying that making David think that he might be replaced by Vince would motivate him to work harder. The Texans might have had no intention of ever drafting him, but by making David think that it was possible, they could push him a little to be more competitive and work harder in the offseason.

I see what she is saying with regards to the 'threat' of Young being a motivator for Carr to learn the playbook, work with Kubes, etc.

However, I don't buy the fact that the threat of Rivers playing all of a sudden made Brees focus more etc. I think that they just got great talent around him at the receiving corps... that was a bigger help more than any other factor.

Bringing in VY, which may be great for the Texans, wouldn't make Carr that much better if they didn't upgrade the talent around him... Long story short, talent helps more than position battles.

kcwilson
04-07-2006, 09:38 PM
I think better questions would be:

Why is it that the new coaching staff is working with the entire team for the first time and nobody cares?

The roles and repsonsibilities of the players on the roster are being worked out right now. Where's the press? Where's the discussion?

I think it is a telltale sign that they had that discussion with Reggie Bush, and even though the press clippings for VY haven't made it out, we should see if the 'role' conversation was had with VY and what arises out of that.

tulexan
04-07-2006, 09:40 PM
I see what she is saying with regards to the 'threat' of Young being a motivator for Carr to learn the playbook, work with Kubes, etc.

However, I don't buy the fact that the threat of Rivers playing all of a sudden made Brees focus more etc. I think that they just got great talent around him at the receiving corps... that was a bigger help more than any other factor.

Bringing in VY, which may be great for the Texans, wouldn't make Carr that much better if they didn't upgrade the talent around him... Long story short, talent helps more than position battles.


I agree with you. The Rivers pushing Brees argument wasn't that great because Rivers didn't cause Gates to be one of the best TEs in the league or make the defense play better.

Frank_The_Tank
04-07-2006, 09:40 PM
Some one should inform the admin guys on this message board to just segregate this message board into Bush :homer: only, and Young :homer: only. You go to the area that you belong and stop writing complete B.S. just to P.O. the other people. I respect a good debate based off of fact, and when credible information and statistics are made to argue a position. Most people on this board write complete nonesence, and when credible post are made haters and basher make S.A. comments to show there aliance. It is so childish and immature, sort of like the idiots who call 610 and just scream pick Bush of scream pick Vince. That is so stupid and I am sure that some of you :homer: in this blog are the ones doing it.

nunusguy
04-07-2006, 09:41 PM
I caught VY on 610 this afternoon with Rich and Marc.
He was sincere, genuine, and thoughtful. Said he had workouts and/or
visits planned with the Jets, Titans, Vikings, Browns, and Dolphins after
todays visit with the Texans.
I wish him nothing but the best in his NFL career.

Runner
04-07-2006, 09:42 PM
I think it is a telltale sign that they had that discussion with Reggie Bush, and even though the press clippings for VY haven't made it out, we should see if the 'role' conversation was had with VY and what arises out of that.

Not Reggie. Not Vince. The players currently on the roster and in off-season workouts. Right now the coaches are figuring out how to use the linebackers they have, the o-lineman they have, etc. Yes these decisions are fluid with free agency and the draft, but wouldn't you like to know what the depth chart looks like right now?

kcwilson
04-07-2006, 09:49 PM
Not Reggie. Not Vince. The players currently on the roster and in off-season workouts. Right now the coaches are figuring out how to use the linebackers they have, the o-lineman they have, etc. Yes these decisions are fluid with free agency and the draft, but wouldn't you like to know what the depth chart looks like right now?

Agreed, but those competitions will be decided in camp. This is Kubes first run with players during practices... needs a little more time to decide on depth.

I have seen plenty of threads with speculation (read the one with Babin as the MLB, that was comedy). With 15 LBs on our roster right now, that seems to be the biggest one unknown and the remainder is the secondary, which we won't know much about until after the draft since we expect to take 1 or 2, plus talking with SS Stone from NE today.

Runner
04-07-2006, 09:51 PM
Agreed, but those competitions will be decided in camp. This is Kubes first run with players during practices... needs a little more time to decide on depth.

I have seen plenty of threads with speculation (read the one with Babin as the MLB, that was comedy). With 15 LBs on our roster right now, that seems to be the biggest one unknown and the remainder is the secondary, which we won't know much about until after the draft since we expect to take 1 or 2, plus talking with SS Stone from NE today.

Right - with so many threads of speculation, it would be nice to get some real info - there is a lot of interest. Some people may be tired of reading/hearing the same stuff over and over.

Texans_Chick
04-07-2006, 09:54 PM
I see what she is saying with regards to the 'threat' of Young being a motivator for Carr to learn the playbook, work with Kubes, etc.

However, I don't buy the fact that the threat of Rivers playing all of a sudden made Brees focus more etc. I think that they just got great talent around him at the receiving corps... that was a bigger help more than any other factor.

Bringing in VY, which may be great for the Texans, wouldn't make Carr that much better if they didn't upgrade the talent around him... Long story short, talent helps more than position battles.


Tulexan was right with what I was saying. I wasn't making the argument for picking Young in that post. I was just saying what "some" think, but maybe that it is craftier to put the pressure on Carr without going through with picking VY if he really doesn't fit your team.

(This of course is assuming that there might be a little truth to the babying Carr/not working hard enough rumors and that they are actually going through that thought process--a couple of big assumptions and really I am just thinking outloud.)

As for the reality of the Brees/Rivers thing, you really can't figure out alternative history thing one way or another. (I lean against that point of view but you never know). I personally don't believe the pressure argument of the guy on the bench motivating the starter is a good use of a #1 pick.

kcwilson
04-07-2006, 09:56 PM
Right - with so many threads of speculation, it would be nice to get some real info - there is a lot of interest. Some people may be tired of reading/hearing the same stuff over and over.

Agreed. What do you do with 15 LBs and 3 spots... Babin and Peek play De, so now you have 13.

They signed Terry Pierce, Cowart, Rainier, Moreno... they have Greenwood, Wong, Polk, and Orr. Re-signed Evan... Acholonu, Chamberlain, Torrey, and Anderson are practice squadders?

You're right... some thought process would be nice.

kcwilson
04-07-2006, 10:00 PM
Tulexan was right with what I was saying. I wasn't making the argument for picking Young in that post. I was just saying what "some" think, but maybe that it is craftier to put the pressure on Carr without going through with picking VY if he really doesn't fit your team.

(This of course is assuming that there might be a little truth to the babying Carr/not working hard enough rumors and that they are actually going through that thought process--a couple of big assumptions and really I am just thinking outloud.)

As for the reality of the Brees/Rivers thing, you really can't figure out alternative history thing one way or another. (I lean against that point of view but you never know). I personally don't believe the pressure argument of the guy on the bench motivating the starter is a good use of a #1 pick.

The way I see it, we are lucky to just get a player like Young or Bush that will have a tremendous marketing value, not just with the fans, but the league and other players in the league. I just think Gates made Brees and hope that Moulds, Bush, etc make Carr.

Ok, beer time now.

Runner
04-07-2006, 10:05 PM
Ok, beer time now.

I was participating in parallel.

tulexan
04-07-2006, 10:06 PM
I too am enjoying a nice cold Restoration Ale

thunderkyss
04-07-2006, 10:14 PM
The Texans had VY in today for 1 of 2 reasons:

2. Because they are actually considering him - and extended Carr's contract to help tutor him along.


I doubt seriously that Carr will be tutoring Vince.

In a perfect world, Vince will be drafted by Houston. Ragone will be gone. David & Sage would give us the best chance to win. Vince would sit till next season, or 'til we are mathmatically out of the playoffs.

$8million for David to play this year, isn't a lot of money. If we trade him next year, it'll be a $4million hit........ not too bad. Not that anyone wants to take a $4million dollar hit, but hopefully David plays well enough that we are well compensated.


chances are slim, that this is what Kubes has in mind....... but that's what I'd do.

Every team in the league knows that in order to get Bush then they would have to surrender this draft and maybe all of next years pick to the Texans. So everybody is just surrendering the idea that Bush will be a Texans. Nobody tried to trade up to Houston or Chicago when they both got Hakeem and Jordan in the 86 NBA Draft.


or......... or, maybe no one else thinks he's worth it... no one was willing to trade up for Carr in 2002, or Alex last year.

I don't buy the Rivers pushing him theory... maybe the 'no one can cover Gates and Tomlinson' theory had more to do with it.

Brees 2005 - 89.2 rating 24TD 15 INT Gates 1101 yds 10 TD
Brees 2004 - 104 rating 27TD 7 INT Gates 964 yds 13 TD
Brees 2003 - 67.5 rating 11TD 15 INT Gates 389 yds 2TD
Brees 2002 - 76.9 rating 17TD 16 INT Gates not in league

Surround a QB with talent, and the talent will show. Football is a team sport and I believe with AJ, Moulds, Bush, Davis, that Carr has a solid year.

The only talent we lost in 2005, was Billy Miller. In 2004, Carr has enough talent to get it done. In 2005, same players, same coaches.... he doesn't... hmmm.


To further illustrate my point about Young's unique talent, in Len Pasquarelli's latest tipsheet on ESPN insider, he says Green Bay is seriously considering him regardless of what Brett Favre does next year, and regardless of the fact that they drafted a 1st round QB in '05.

If we can't afford to pay Vince and Carr, there is no way the Packers can pay Brett & Vince. No way.
I might be wrong, but I believe Texans Chick was saying that making David think that he might be replaced by Vince would motivate him to work harder. The Texans might have had no intention of ever drafting him, but by making David think that it was possible, they could push him a little to be more competitive and work harder in the offseason.
You shouldn't have to do this with a #1 overall QB......

Runner
04-07-2006, 10:23 PM
The only talent we lost in 2005, was Billy Miller. In 2004, Carr has enough talent to get it done. In 2005, same players, same coaches.... he doesn't... hmmm.



They also benched Wando and the line play plummeted. Not saying it is strictly cause and effect, but he was superior to Riley.

Texans_Chick
04-07-2006, 10:30 PM
The only talent we lost in 2005, was Billy Miller. In 2004, Carr has enough talent to get it done. In 2005, same players, same coaches.... he doesn't... hmmm.


"Talent" has to mean more than a gimpy AJ.

And a Oline that never got it together and was injured and had everybody playing in musical chair positions.

And canning the offensive coordinator in week 3. And then putting the training wheels on with Pendry. (BTW, no more freaking swing passes to a Andre Johnson--that's like getting Pavarotti to sing Mary Had a Little Lamb).

BREAZE
04-07-2006, 10:38 PM
Based on the moves the Texans have made these last few weeks, anyone with half a brain knows who the Texans are selecting. Perhaps that's why its so quite.

The VY workout was a PR move. The only chance the Texans consider taking VY is if Bush and his agent convey too much greed during negotiations. Otherwise its a done deal IMO...

Daonly
04-07-2006, 10:44 PM
Texans bringing in Young, has nothing to do with Football related issues; it's all about Marketing. If you can bring in a local kid, and not have to fly him in, or spend tremendous amounts of money on advertising, and you can get NATIONAL FREE ATTENTION to your club that's worth MILLIONS of dollars!

If you don't have to pay for it, you'll do it time and time again. That's why keeping the #1 overall pick, is much more valuable than taking the best player available. It's all about all the free media attention, and branding of your franchise that comes along with it.

The Texans NEED all the media attention it can get it's hands on since they don't have any National games. They doing Young a favor by keeping his stock up as high as possible; and the Texans are getting free Pub; That's all what this visit is about. :homer:

tulexan
04-07-2006, 10:44 PM
I did like that Vince hoped for the best for Reggie and said that he will be pulling for him if he plays for the Texans or any other team.

I suspect that the media is going to try to make a rivalry out of Vince v. Reggie eventhough there is no animosity between the two guys and both like each other.

Hervoyel
04-07-2006, 10:47 PM
This is the triumph of the small-minded. I'm stunned. This board has gone dead.

In what way have the "small-minded" triumphed? Are you saying that those who never felt Vince Young was the right pick have won? If so why are people who don't agree with you "small minded"? You think Young is the way to go and I think Bush is the better choice. You're not small minded IMO, you just have a different opinion. I think this was a poor choice of words on your part.

Yeah, I know it's unlikely we'll make the smart move and take Young, or better yet, trade down and still take Young, but for his workout here not to cause the slightest stir is thought prokoking.

It is interesting. The massive outpouring for Vince seems to be fading as quickly as it appeared following the Rose Bowl. Prior to that game there was barely a peep out of anyone on the board at that time about Vince Young. Then suddenly everyone it seemed had always wanted us to take Vince but just didn't think it was possible. Now the Texans make a few moves that seem to indicate that they're not going to take a QB and just like that the support for taking Vince just dries up? It's strange how fast that happened.

Maybe it's just as well. Bush will be fine, or, if we're lucky, somebody else will want Bush enough to make a decent offer for him (and I think we'd trade the #1 for anything approaching a decent offer).

Right now Bush is the greatest college football player who ever played the game who nobody in the NFL really wants! Crazy!

"Bush will be fine". How magnanimous of you. I'm glad that he's going to be "ok". Good to know that "he'll do".

You might be willing to trade the #1 for anything approaching a decent offer but the Texans haven't done anything to make me think they'd swwap it for the first package that doesn't look too pitiful. You act like they're dying to get out of the top spot or something. Where are you getting that?

I also don't see anything outside of you Vince fans posts that would tell me that nobody in the NFL really wants Reggie Bush. I think the number of people watching his pro-day pretty much puts the lie to that.

tulexan
04-07-2006, 10:55 PM
If they are so interested in trading down for a decent offer, why are they only working out Vince and Reggie of the big prospects? Don't you think that they would be bringing in Mario, D'Brick, AJ Hawk, Vernon Davis, etc.?

Everyone knows that the Vince workout was for show, which means that they have set their sights on Reggie and Reggie alone.

swtbound07
04-07-2006, 11:08 PM
If they are so interested in trading down for a decent offer, why are they only working out Vince and Reggie of the big prospects? Don't you think that they would be bringing in Mario, D'Brick, AJ Hawk, Vernon Davis, etc.?

Everyone knows that the Vince workout was for show, which means that they have set their sights on Reggie and Reggie alone.

I dont know that tule. I still think its a lot closer to 50/50 then people on this board think. What do Derrick Johnson, Troy Williamson, Sean Taylor, Robert Gallery, Charles Rogers, Joey Harrington, Julius Peppers, Alex Barron, Kellen Winslow, and Deangelo Williams have in common. They are ALL players that people on this board have SWORE that the Texans were going to draft.

Therefore, until that pick is called, you can speculate all you want, but the collective wisdom on this board doesnt amount to a hill of beans. Somebody show me their mock draft from last year with travis johnson on the board and then we can talk.

Besides, even if the pick is reggie RIGHT NOW, a lot can change between now and the 29th. Nothing is guaranteed folks.

tulexan
04-07-2006, 11:22 PM
I dont know that tule. I still think its a lot closer to 50/50 then people on this board think. What do Derrick Johnson, Troy Williamson, Sean Taylor, Robert Gallery, Charles Rogers, Joey Harrington, Julius Peppers, Alex Barron, Kellen Winslow, and Deangelo Williams have in common. They are ALL players that people on this board have SWORE that the Texans were going to draft.

Therefore, until that pick is called, you can speculate all you want, but the collective wisdom on this board doesnt amount to a hill of beans. Somebody show me their mock draft from last year with travis johnson on the board and then we can talk.

Besides, even if the pick is reggie RIGHT NOW, a lot can change between now and the 29th. Nothing is guaranteed folks.


I think you mean DeAngelo Hall, not DeAngelo Williams. All of those players, except Harrington and Peppers, are different because in those drafts we didn't have the first pick. We didn't pass on any of them because they were all picked ahead of us (except Barron and Johnson). I agree that nothing is guaranteed, but this is as close as you can get to a guarantee that we will pick him and I think that we will know who we are picking long before the 29th because we will have Reggie signed or close to being signed.

swtbound07
04-07-2006, 11:27 PM
I think you mean DeAngelo Hall, not DeAngelo Williams. All of those players, except Harrington and Peppers, are different because in those drafts we didn't have the first pick. We didn't pass on any of them because they were all picked ahead of us (except Barron and Johnson). I agree that nothing is guaranteed, but this is as close as you can get to a guarantee that we will pick him and I think that we will know who we are picking long before the 29th because we will have Reggie signed or close to being signed.

Good call on the deangelo hall..im tired. Harrington and peppers arent different because we had the opportunity and the 1 pick, and like you said, barron and johnson, ESPECIALLY JOHNSON, were different because everyone said if they got to us we would be all over them. We passed on DJ. I would bet that nobody on this board could have seen us passing on him. Nobody on this board thinks we could pass on Reggie....I do. Just FYI on the contract bit, San Francisco had contract negotiations going with alex smith, Braylon edwards, AND Aaron Rodgers up until draft day, so negotiating a contract doesnt mean anything. Also, you cant actually sign a player until the draft, so there are no guarantees until the 29th. Dont get your mind locked in, and think outside the box.

thunderkyss
04-07-2006, 11:31 PM
I also don't see anything outside of you Vince fans posts that would tell me that nobody in the NFL really wants Reggie Bush. I think the number of people watching his pro-day pretty much puts the lie to that.

So I guess it was only Houstonians and UT alum at Vince's ProDay...... or does that lie fall to a different set of rules??

tulexan
04-07-2006, 11:50 PM
Good call on the deangelo hall..im tired. Harrington and peppers arent different because we had the opportunity and the 1 pick, and like you said, barron and johnson, ESPECIALLY JOHNSON, were different because everyone said if they got to us we would be all over them. We passed on DJ. I would bet that nobody on this board could have seen us passing on him. Nobody on this board thinks we could pass on Reggie....I do. Just FYI on the contract bit, San Francisco had contract negotiations going with alex smith, Braylon edwards, AND Aaron Rodgers up until draft day, so negotiating a contract doesnt mean anything. Also, you cant actually sign a player until the draft, so there are no guarantees until the 29th. Dont get your mind locked in, and think outside the box.

All of those players, except Harrington and Peppers, are different

I understand that we can negotiate with multiple players and that a lot of teams do that. But all signs point to Bush. Whether it is the extension of Carr to 3 years, the signing of Rosenfels, the signing of Weaver, the multiple sources saying that Bush the pick, Kubiak saying that Davis needs another quality back to be successful, Wells still being a UFA, the Texans signing no RBs, Reggie saying that he is 99.9% sure that he will be a Texan, Reggie saying that the FO said they were excited for Reggie to be a Texan, Reggie playing 3 years in the system that we will be running next year, McNair, Casserly, and Kubiak saying that their draft strategy is BPA and Reggie being the consensus #1 prospect, Reggie looking at real estate in Houston, I can go on and on.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Texans did not contact Vince again. They had their little show with him and made it look like they are interested in him to placate the Longhorn fans. We aren't going to trade down or pick anyone else because we are only looking at Vince and Reggie.

Nighthawk
04-07-2006, 11:54 PM
Once again, I'll ask the question that I have asked on here so many times and never gotten a response to...If we were going to draft a QB, why would we draft Vince Young when he is not even the top rated QB in this draft?

Because he's the QB with the greatest upside. As has been said here so many times. ML is top rated because he can come in and right away be a fair QB in the league. That puts him only 1 step ahead of our 8 million dollar QB, and well behind VY & his prospects.

Nighthawk
04-08-2006, 12:02 AM
How many picks would it take to equal with Bush brings to the table. A running back with explosive and elusive speed. A reciever who can catch the ball who is explosive and has elusive speed. A kick returner who is explosive and has elusive speed. By all accounts, that may be equivalent to at least 2 high first round picks and maybe a high second round pick... this year. Hmmm... not one team has that to offer.

Bushies -- you live in La La Land.

First, forget kick returner. Bush is nNOT a threat as kick return guy cause nobody but a complete fool would use him that way. Repeat: HE WILL NOT RETURN KICKS IN THE BIGS.

Second, he's got is speed, but, amazing as it may seem, everybody else in the NFL also has speed. It's unlike playing Fresno State.

Third, I think Bush will be good, successful, but I don't buy him setting the league on its ear. He may be a top of the line Dorsett-style player, but that's it, that's the limit.

So, if we could trade down it wouldn't take many picks to get better value (insert list of usual suspects here). Almost any two picks in first round would be better.

Finally, note that nobody ELSE thinks Bush is worth the big offer, or even the little offer as far as I've been able to uncover. As I said, he the greatest college player of all time that apparently nobody wants (including, I suspect, the Texans front office).

Cheers--

infantrycak
04-08-2006, 12:02 AM
"Talent" has to mean more than a gimpy AJ.

And a Oline that never got it together and was injured and had everybody playing in musical chair positions.

And canning the offensive coordinator in week 3. And then putting the training wheels on with Pendry. (BTW, no more freaking swing passes to a Andre Johnson--that's like getting Pavarotti to sing Mary Had a Little Lamb).

Thank you for injecting some sanity to the MB.

thunderkyss
04-08-2006, 12:05 AM
Thank you for injecting some sanity to the MB.


ho-hum........

infantrycak
04-08-2006, 12:33 AM
ho-hum........

Yeah, I guess it is boring for someone like you to read posts from a Vince Young fan like Texans Chick who would really love to have him here but can't buy into every slam Carr, slam RB argument you and others can come up with in your deluded quest that if somehow you create enough arguments real or more often purely made up, that VY will come here.

By the way, made up arguments aren't corn and this isn't the VY field of dreams.

swtbound07
04-08-2006, 01:02 AM
I understand that we can negotiate with multiple players and that a lot of teams do that. But all signs point to Bush. Whether it is the extension of Carr to 3 years, the signing of Rosenfels, the signing of Weaver, the multiple sources saying that Bush the pick, Kubiak saying that Davis needs another quality back to be successful, Wells still being a UFA, the Texans signing no RBs, Reggie saying that he is 99.9% sure that he will be a Texan, Reggie saying that the FO said they were excited for Reggie to be a Texan, Reggie playing 3 years in the system that we will be running next year, McNair, Casserly, and Kubiak saying that their draft strategy is BPA and Reggie being the consensus #1 prospect, Reggie looking at real estate in Houston, I can go on and on.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Texans did not contact Vince again. They had their little show with him and made it look like they are interested in him to placate the Longhorn fans. We aren't going to trade down or pick anyone else because we are only looking at Vince and Reggie.


Its the time before the draft. There are smokescreens. The entire month of april is basically predicated on deception. All Im saying is the past 2 years i've listened to people "reading the signs" and prognosticating about what we are going to do based on their analysis of move X vs. move Y. Bottom line is you see what you want it to see. I see them bringing in Reggie AND Vince, and that leads me to believe they are still somewhat torn. You see it as a pacification to UT fans, and having no bearing on intent. You know absolutely as much as I know, and as many signs as you can see, they still dont mean jack. Im just tired of people pretending they know what they dont. I've said 50 times the pick is up in the air, but you want to assume Reggie is all but a guarantee. How many times have you watched the NFL draft and been completely shocked??? And the crazy thing is, if I told you what was going to happen last year before the draft, I would have been laughed at.

If i had come on this board and said we would pass on Derrick Johnson for Travis Johnson, I would have been mocked, called crazy, and ignored. Kind of the same treatment I am getting for saying the Texans won't take Reggie. Everyone finds it inconcievable. Just wait until the 29th to close your mind, thats all I am asking.

Nighthawk
04-08-2006, 01:23 AM
In what way have the "small-minded" triumphed? Are you saying that those who never felt Vince Young was the right pick have won? If so why are people who don't agree with you "small minded"? You think Young is the way to go and I think Bush is the better choice. You're not small minded IMO, you just have a different opinion. I think this was a poor choice of words on your part.

Actually, while I recognize we have different views, I nevertheless still consider the pro-Bush view "small minded" for this reason: Bush is the safe, conventional, consensus-style choice, a guy it's easy to choose because it appears he's can't miss as far as he goes.

My problem is that overall I don't think he's going to go that far, and the argument is that the better, harder choice is VY, because basically he looks like he might rewrite the NFL book on QB--he brings together all the best qualities of some of the best QBs in the league Favre, Cunningham, Vick, Big Ben, etc. etc. I don't want to rehearse the argument here, but I still believe it.

Wherever VY goes I think that team is guaranteed playoffs and championships because of VY. I don't think we get that out of Bush.

And I'll add this--if we had a top-tier QB now, or even a guy who I really believed had it, or "it," in the parlance, I might not think the VY choice was necessary. But we don't have such a QB (and I don't want to rehash that argument, either) and thus VY seems to be the "smart," or "large-minded" choice for the Texans.

Maybe not the "popular" choice on this board, but the one most likely to bring the best results over the mid- to long-term.

Runner
04-08-2006, 01:36 AM
Actually, while I recognize we have different views, I nevertheless still consider the pro-Bush view "small minded" for this reason: Bush is the safe, conventional, consensus-style choice, a guy it's easy to choose because it appears he's can't miss as far as he goes.

My problem is that overall I don't think he's going to go that far, and the argument is that the better, harder choice is VY, because basically he looks like he might rewrite the NFL book on QB--he brings together all the best qualities of some of the best QBs in the league Favre, Cunningham, Vick, Big Ben, etc. etc. I don't want to rehearse the argument here, but I still believe it.

Wherever VY goes I think that team is guaranteed playoffs and championships because of VY. I don't think we get that out of Bush.

And I'll add this--if we had a top-tier QB now, or even a guy who I really believed had it, or "it," in the parlance, I might not think the VY choice was necessary. But we don't have such a QB (and I don't want to rehash that argument, either) and thus VY seems to be the "smart," or "large-minded" choice for the Texans.

Maybe not the "popular" choice on this board, but the one most likely to bring the best results over the mid- to long-term.

Again: small minded - disagree with you; large minded = agree with you.

Nighthawk
04-08-2006, 02:05 AM
Again: small minded - disagree with you; large minded = agree with you.

No, it's an argument. A case is presented for the argument. If you can make a better case, you win.

Runner
04-08-2006, 02:08 AM
No, it's an argument. A case is presented for the argument. If you can make a better case, you win.

Who's the judge?

Peace man - the boards been really interesting the past couple of weeks.

DRAMA
04-08-2006, 02:59 AM
Actually, while I recognize we have different views, I nevertheless still consider the pro-Bush view "small minded" for this reason: Bush is the safe, conventional, consensus-style choice, a guy it's easy to choose because it appears he's can't miss as far as he goes.

Maybe not the "popular" choice on this board, but the one most likely to bring the best results over the mid- to long-term.

Id say first of all, if Reggie is a can't miss - you draft the can't miss! Why would I want to draft a 2nd to 3rd rated QB who actually MAY miss. You say draft the MAY miss over the CAN'T miss? You lost me.... Safe? You call Bush safer than Brick? Safer than Williams? Safer than Leinart? Lost me again...

You're saying that we should take the QB, who's a leader, who has the charisma, teammates love, wins the big games, makes the big plays, and has won at the ultimate level in college? We should draft that guy? The problem is that I don't think we need Leinart. You HAD to be talking about Matt right? I mean, he is THE consensus #1 QB in this draft... There's no way you're advocating taking Vince because he's from here, are you?

Whew, because if we were all to be so 'small minded' as to simply draft a guy because he's from here, well, maybe we could take Reggie McNeal and call it even?

Small minded because I think Bush is the best 'runner' that I've ever seen and not 'large minded' because I see flaws with Vince Young and would rather have Matt Leinart? Mel Kiper, Herbstreit, ESPN, whoever drafts at #2, gary Kubiak - Bob McNair, etc... actually ALL DO disagree with you but hey, what do they know right? They're just being small minded, I guess!

I actually like Vince alot (Even though that does wane somewhat after being called small-minded...) but I just feel that Bush is our homerun threat and I want our homerun threat now..and I promise, my mind is HUGE!! :)

JAXwithanX
04-08-2006, 05:21 AM
Id say first of all, if Reggie is a can't miss - you draft the can't miss! Why would I want to draft a 2nd to 3rd rated QB who actually MAY miss. You say draft the MAY miss over the CAN'T miss? You lost me.... Safe? You call Bush safer than Brick? Safer than Williams? Safer than Leinart? Lost me again...

You're saying that we should take the QB, who's a leader, who has the charisma, teammates love, wins the big games, makes the big plays, and has won at the ultimate level in college? We should draft that guy? The problem is that I don't think we need Leinart. You HAD to be talking about Matt right? I mean, he is THE consensus #1 QB in this draft... There's no way you're advocating taking Vince because he's from here, are you?

Whew, because if we were all to be so 'small minded' as to simply draft a guy because he's from here, well, maybe we could take Reggie McNeal and call it even?

Small minded because I think Bush is the best 'runner' that I've ever seen and not 'large minded' because I see flaws with Vince Young and would rather have Matt Leinart? Mel Kiper, Herbstreit, ESPN, whoever drafts at #2, gary Kubiak - Bob McNair, etc... actually ALL DO disagree with you but hey, what do they know right? They're just being small minded, I guess!

I actually like Vince alot (Even though that does wane somewhat after being called small-minded...) but I just feel that Bush is our homerun threat and I want our homerun threat now..and I promise, my mind is HUGE!! :)


thats may be the most rambling, nonsensical post i've ever read....i'm still trying to figure out if it was translated from another language....

Sportsfan
04-08-2006, 07:42 AM
VY worked out and nobody cares?

No.

tulexan
04-08-2006, 11:21 AM
Second, he's got is speed, but, amazing as it may seem, everybody else in the NFL also has speed. It's unlike playing Fresno State.



Well Vince won't be playing against a USC defense ever again. Isn't it funny how Fresno State's defense is actually better than USC's?

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2005&div=4&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org

SteelBlueToro
04-08-2006, 11:23 AM
Well Vince won't be playing against a USC defense ever again. Isn't it funny how Fresno State's defense is actually better than USC's?

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2005&div=4&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org
Just wait until Blitzburgh gets a hold of him!

bad
04-08-2006, 11:32 AM
thats may be the most rambling, nonsensical post i've ever read....i'm still trying to figure out if it was translated from another language.... Id say first of all, if Reggie is a can't miss - you draft the can't miss! That seems pretty straightforward to me.

Texans_Chick
04-08-2006, 11:39 AM
Well Vince won't be playing against a USC defense ever again. Isn't it funny how Fresno State's defense is actually better than USC's?

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2005&div=4&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org


This is not completely fair.

Last season, USC was #1 in both turnover margin and turnovers gained. Seeing that the other team has over 20 interceptions is not exactly a heartwarming stat to see if you are an opposing QB.

Just saying.

tulexan
04-08-2006, 11:43 AM
This is not completely fair.

Last season, USC was #1 in both turnover margin and turnovers gained. Seeing that the other team has over 20 interceptions is not exactly a heartwarming stat to see if you are an opposing QB.

Just saying.

Turnover margin is a very misleading stat. I suspect it was high because they were consistently blowing out teams and forcing them to throw the ball which is riskier because there is a better chance for a turnover. Look at the Bengals this year. They had one of the highest turnover margins in the league but once they played against a good team like the Colts, they couldn't stop them. This is also similar to the Chiefs a few years ago when they lost to the Colts in the playoffs.

Texans_Chick
04-08-2006, 12:12 PM
Turnover margin is a very misleading stat. I suspect it was high because they were consistently blowing out teams and forcing them to throw the ball which is riskier because there is a better chance for a turnover. Look at the Bengals this year. They had one of the highest turnover margins in the league but once they played against a good team like the Colts, they couldn't stop them. This is also similar to the Chiefs a few years ago when they lost to the Colts in the playoffs.


I recognize that it doesn't tell the whole story, I was just bringing it up to round out the picture and not just leave the impression that the USC defense totally stunk. (Just like it is unfair to blow off Reggie's performance against Frenso State as well it was just Fresno State).

Texas in the Rose Bowl had to throw the ball, and did it effectively against a team that had demonstrated the entire season that it was able to pick off the ball. A team that had all the time in the world to game plan against Texas' offense.

Honoring Earl 34
04-08-2006, 12:19 PM
John Elway was the best QB prospect in the last thirty years . John stuggled his first couple of years . Reggie Bush will play at a high level right of the bus while it will take VY three years .

The Texans staff says Carr is good enough to win so the debate is over about VY . The debate should be between RB , Mario , and DBrick .

vtech9
04-08-2006, 12:55 PM
John Elway was the best QB prospect in the last thirty years . John stuggled his first couple of years . Reggie Bush will play at a high level right of the bus while it will take VY three years .

The Texans staff says Carr is good enough to win so the debate is over about VY . The debate should be between RB , Mario , and DBrick .
that's a good argument...since a running backs carreer usually averages about 4 years, Reggie Bush could be done by the time that Vince Young is coming into his prime.

So, that would be 3 years with David Carr and Reggie Bush. Since I have my doubts that Carr can turn his carreer around enough to be anything more than average, I can't see the Texans going very far. In saying that, I can see Bush getting more touches, and in turn, getting hit more, which could shorten his carreer.

tulexan
04-08-2006, 12:59 PM
that's a good argument...since a running backs carreer usually averages about 4 years, Reggie Bush could be done by the time that Vince Young is coming into his prime.



You're right it could be like that. Anything can happen in the NFL. On the other hand, Reggie could be a two time pro bowler, rookie of the year, and be in the playoffs before Vince starts his first game.

barzilla
04-08-2006, 01:03 PM
I guess my question is how many people outside of Houston think VY SHOULD be the number one pick. Some people are saying that Matt Leinert is the number one quarterback and some people are saying that VY is number. Isn't the confusion a sign that maybe VY isn't viewed the same way he is here. I hear this talk about the "majority" preferring Bush and about the Bush folks being "small-minded". I don't get it. If we were in another city, very few people would even be bringing VY up. It seems like we have more VY folks here than Bush folks, but maybe that is just my impression.

Listen, I have said this before and I'll say it again: I don't have anything against VY. I think he'll be a very good QB at the next level and he may very well lead his team to a championship. However, I don't understand why it is so bad to go with the safe pick. It's not like we're talking about Alex Smith here. Bush has A LOT of upside in addition to being as close as you can get to a guarantee. I don't think that makes us in the Bush camp or the Texans small-minded. It simply means they may not be risk takers. Or, it means they really do believe Bush has a higher ceiling.

What we don't know is how the coaches and FO feel about his workout yesterday. Maybe he showed them he can make the throws he didn't attempt on the pro day. Maybe he didn't make the throws. VY is an exciting player and I'll be happy if they take him. I'll be happier if they take Bush.

Honoring Earl 34
04-08-2006, 01:10 PM
Since we have already paid Carr ... how smart would it be to sign Vince to an even bigger contract . I guess we can go to the NFL Euro to backfill our roster .

QB is the biggest risk in a draft . There are not gaurantees for any position ,its just QBs have the highest risk . What if VY really did score a 7 on his test before the NFL swept it under the rug ... his risk factor goes up a great deal . Whats the risk factor for RB , Williams and DBrick ?

vtech9
04-08-2006, 01:30 PM
Since we have already paid Carr ... how smart would it be to sign Vince to an even bigger contract . I guess we can go to the NFL Euro to backfill our roster .

QB is the biggest risk in a draft . There are not gaurantees for any position ,its just QBs have the highest risk . What if VY really did score a 7 on his test before the NFL swept it under the rug ... his risk factor goes up a great deal . Whats the risk factor for RB , Williams and DBrick ?
Hey, I have NO PROBLEM with trading down and taking SuperMario, DaBrickishaw, or even Bush, but what I have a problem with is taking Bush with the 1st overall pick. I wouldn't mind having Bush, Mario, Brick, Hawk, or Young, but I just think the 1st overall pick is too high for Bush. If I use the 1st overall pick, I want a player that is going to have a long carreer. Running Backs generally have the shortest carreers of any position.

Runner
04-08-2006, 01:31 PM
Hey, I have NO PROBLEM with trading down and taking SuperMario, DaBrickishaw, or even Bush, but what I have a problem with is taking Bush with the 1st overall pick. I wouldn't mind having Bush, Mario, Brick, Hawk, or Young, but I just think the 1st overall pick is too high for Bush. If I use the 1st overall pick, I want a player that is going to have a long carreer. Running Backs generally have the shortest carreers of any position.

I consider this your best argument, as opposed to the part-time back one.

tulexan
04-08-2006, 01:35 PM
Hey, I have NO PROBLEM with trading down and taking SuperMario, DaBrickishaw, or even Bush, but what I have a problem with is taking Bush with the 1st overall pick. I wouldn't mind having Bush, Mario, Brick, Hawk, or Young, but I just think the 1st overall pick is too high for Bush. If I use the 1st overall pick, I want a player that is going to have a long carreer. Running Backs generally have the shortest carreers of any position.

Do you have a crystal ball that can predict the length of a prospect's career?

Any player at any position can have a long career or a short career. Running backs do have on average the shortest careers, but there have been many backs who have played 10+ years and Bush splitting time with Davis should not only extend the career of Bush but also Davis who has had injury problems from being over worked.

JAXwithanX
04-09-2006, 02:17 AM
That seems pretty straightforward to me.

Oh my bad man....i guess i overstepped a boundary and actually made someone stick up for their internet friend. Stepping up to respond for another man online is pretty weak....its not like i ripped him a new one. Regardless i was talking about the whole post....yes your right....he said one sentence in that essay that was actually coherent.

Frank_The_Tank
04-09-2006, 02:54 AM
I would have to say the avg. life span for a RB is longer than four years I would give it 5 to 9 years as a productive big bodied runner. If you have Reggie Bush he will be more of a reciever than a running back anyways. He is to small to run inside the tackles, and he will never be our starting running back while D.Davis is here so I could see Bush last 6 to 8 years. I think Houston will have the highest paid backup running back in the History of the NFL, if they take him.

thunderkyss
04-09-2006, 07:23 AM
Yeah, I guess it is boring for someone like you to read posts from a Vince Young fan like Texans Chick who would really love to have him here but can't buy into every slam Carr, slam RB argument you and others can come up with in your deluded quest that if somehow you create enough arguments real or more often purely made up, that VY will come here.

By the way, made up arguments aren't corn and this isn't the VY field of dreams.

Which slams have I bought into??

that he sacks himself?? I think Kubiak has said the same..

that a 4 year player should know not to run out of bounds with the ball behind the L.O.S.?? have you ever seen another starter do that after four years??

the fetal position thing?? You haven't seen it??

that Carr doesn't throw well on the move?? I'd like to see the numbers, but I truly believe he's better off tucking and running.

that he leaves the pocket early....... often?? tell you what, if he weren't running into the sacker, I'd overlook this one. but being as leaving the pocket early is a fault many see in Vince, I think it's a wash..... well, till you look at David's sack numbers.......

I'm sorry I can't conform to the "norm" and pat your back, and rub your belly with the "consensus" norm", when what I see tells me that Vince is that special kind of QB, & I'd like for this team to be the one that will ride his coat tails, as he turns this league inside out.

Reggie..... If he's everything ya'll think he'll be, I'd still want the QB that in my eyes will be just as spectacular.... In my book, amazing QB trumps amazing Running Back all day long.

Is Vince a sure thing?? no. are their questions about his game?? sure.

1) can he run a pro style offense??

there isn't a QB whose entered/will enter the draft, that you can't/shouln't ask that question about....... Matt Lienart may seem to be a no brainer, but they thought the same about Charlie Batch, Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, etc.. etc.. etc.....

2) he's got that funny side arm thing......

So does our 4 year QB..... but Vince has a little height advantage to help him out.

3) How will his game translate??

His passing stats are on par with Lienart, with Carr...... completion percentage, YPA, passing effieciency.... his arm is stronger than Lienarts, he's demonstrated, IMHO, that the college game is too slow for him.

his rushing stats, are on par with Randal Cunningham's, Michael Vick, Donavan McNabb, Dante Cullpepper....

I think he'll be able to play, and make whatever team he plays for competetive(sp).

4) He should sit out his first year..........

Looking back, I wish Carr had.

I don't think I've made any insane arguments in favor for Vince Young. I don't believe I've made any insane arguments against Reggie.....

I agree, and have agreed for some time now, it doesn't look like they are going to draft Vince Young........ but..........

is it insane to think a new coach would like to pick the guy who will be his field general?? An extension of himself??

is it insane to think extending Carr's contract 3 years, roughly $5 mil/year was the best option considering the FAs who were out there at the time?? If I could've got Drew Bledsoe for $2mil/year, I woud. but he wasn't on the block this go 'round. Kitna?? $2mil?? you're just wasting your time...... he's a back up only.... Jeff Garcia?? I'm surprised that he's got a gig. If You weren't happy with Carr, who would you have picked up to lead your team??
No one is going to drop Carr (who we don't know about yet..........(4 years, and you don't know??)) and look to draft a QB in the draft that you(he.....Kubiak) hadn't even talked to... remember he was still in the hunt for the SuperBowl two weeks(??) before Carr's extension came due.

We've got soooooo much talent on the offensive side of the Ball right now, I don't think Reggie is going to add too much anyway..... You've got Moulds, Jeb, AJ, Armstrong, Walther, and Mathis........ three of those six guys will be on the field on every play.... what does Reggie add?? The ability to score from the 80?? nope, all ready got it....... the ability to break an 80 yard run for a TD?? I can live without it...... get DD to our 45, with GK's run blocking, and he poses the same threat.

2006 will tell us what we need to know about David Carr...... needing to go into a season thinking that you have to evaluate your 5 year starter should tell you something.

When Denver looked at Jake, do you think there was any question as to what his abilities were?? Time and Time again, he played well, on a bad, bad team. I'm not talking about INTs, and sacks. The only reason anyone watched an Arizona game was to watch the opposing team dominate, or to watch Jake the Snake play.

Sanity would be realizing your QB isn't perfect.

Sanity would be realizing there is a potentially great QB in the Draft.

The only teams who shouldn't be interested, is Indy, Philly, Miami, Jacksonville, Tampa, Cincinatti, Seattle, & Arizona. I may have left someone out accidentally...... but the Texans, IMHO don't belong on the list.

================================================== ================


You're saying that we should take the QB, who's a leader, who has the charisma, teammates love, wins the big games, makes the big plays, and has won at the ultimate level in college? We should draft that guy? The problem is that I don't think we need Leinart. You HAD to be talking about Matt right? I mean, he is THE consensus #1 QB in this draft... There's no way you're advocating taking Vince because he's from here, are you?

Whew, because if we were all to be so 'small minded' as to simply draft a guy because he's from here, well, maybe we could take Reggie McNeal and call it even?


Small minded, because this is what you see...... you just happen to believe the Garbage that Matt's Pro day says isn't, and never was there. Yet you still don't want to believe it.......... not until all the papers tell you so I guess.

If you're looking at drafting a QB, you've got to hope he is better than the one you've got now......... I've seen nothing in Matt, to make me think he is any better than Carr. If they were both in the draft right now, I'd rank Carr over Matt...

The only positive you see in Vince, is that he is from Houston.......... small minded.

I actually like Vince alot (Even though that does wane somewhat after being called small-minded...) but I just feel that Bush is our homerun threat and I want our homerun threat now..and I promise, my mind is HUGE!!

agian, small minded....... AJ, Moulds, Mathis all homerund threats, from anywhere on the field. More so, than Reggie Bush....... DD..... get him inside the 50, he's a homerun threat.

This is not completely fair.

Last season, USC was #1 in both turnover margin and turnovers gained. Seeing that the other team has over 20 interceptions is not exactly a heartwarming stat to see if you are an opposing QB.

Just saying.

I remember them saying USC had the best Secondary Vince had seen...

Turnover margin is a very misleading stat. I suspect it was high because they were consistently blowing out teams and forcing them to throw the ball which is riskier because there is a better chance for a turnover. Look at the Bengals this year. They had one of the highest turnover margins in the league but once they played against a good team like the Colts, they couldn't stop them. This is also similar to the Chiefs a few years ago when they lost to the Colts in the playoffs.

Wasn't UT down by two scores in the last 6 minutes of the game?? Didn't Vince have to make some pretty good throws to move the ball??

that's a good argument...since a running backs carreer usually averages about 4 years, Reggie Bush could be done by the time that Vince Young is coming into his prime.

So, that would be 3 years with David Carr and Reggie Bush. Since I have my doubts that Carr can turn his carreer around enough to be anything more than average, I can't see the Texans going very far. In saying that, I can see Bush getting more touches, and in turn, getting hit more, which could shorten his carreer.

& don't forget, no one believes Carr will turn it around in one year. Minimm two years...... Reggie will have 2 years left(if you believe the 4 year thing)

infantrycak
04-09-2006, 08:37 AM
Which slams have I bought into??


Whatever--by your own admission you have said you have become an advocate for Vince Young and are going to spin everything pro him and that bending everything against Carr aids in the VY cause. Giving a "ho hum" to an objective post from a VY fanatic demonstrates yet again your desire to advocate rather than be objective.

Untamed Guerillaz
04-09-2006, 08:42 AM
Yo Thundekyss thats was an excellent post dawg...but to state my opinion why would we want to spend that much money on RB when the Texans said he would be used similiar to what the USC used him if they were to draft him...see i think that is crazy and if i spend that much money on a player he will be on the field full time and not part time.

TexanFan881
04-09-2006, 09:16 AM
Yo Thundekyss thats was an excellent post dawg...but to state my opinion why would we want to spend that much money on RB when the Texans said he would be used similiar to what the USC used him if they were to draft him...see i think that is crazy and if i spend that much money on a player he will be on the field full time and not part time.

Just because he might be a part time player the first year doens't mean he won't be a full time back by the beginning of next year or earlier. He might not live up to what we are paying him in his first year but by the second he will be worth it. When, and not if, we draft Reggie, I could see him having all the carries by week 8.

Runner
04-09-2006, 09:19 AM
Is Vince a sure thing?? no. are their questions about his game?? sure.

1) can he run a pro style offense??

there isn't a QB whose entered/will enter the draft, that you can't/shouln't ask that question about.......

It's the answer that counts, not the question. Just because you ask the same question about all of the prospects doesn't mean they are equal.



& don't forget, no one believes Carr will turn it around in one year.

Really? The coaches think differently, but what do they know? Maybe you mean everyone on this board. Well no, that's not true either. Who is everybody - all "right thinking" people?

infantrycak
04-09-2006, 09:39 AM
Really? The coaches think differently, but what do they know? Maybe you mean everyone on this board. Well no, that's not true either. Who is everybody - all "right thinking" people?

Must be the folks that didn't see Drew Brees go from:

Pass comp % 57.6 Yds 2108 ypa 5.92 TD's 11 INT's 15 QB rating 67.5--in other words worse on every stat than DC to:

Pass comp % 65.5 Yds 3159 ypa 7.90 TD's 27 INT's 7 QB rating 104.8

Or Jon Kitna in his 7th season going from:

Pass comp % 53.9 yds 3216 ypa 5.54 TD's 12 INT's 22 QB rating 61.1
Pass comp % 62.2 yds 3178 ypa 6.72 TD's 16 INT's 16 QB rating 79.1

to

Pass comp % 62.3 yds 3591 ypa 6.91 TD's 26 INT's 15 QB rating 87.4

Or Daunte Culpepper in his 5th year going from:

Pass comp % 60.7 yds 3853 ypa 7.02 TD's 18 INT's 23 QB rating 75.3

to

Pass comp % 65.0 yds 3479 ypa 7.66 TD's 25 INT's 11 QB rating 96.4

QB's make often make big one year performance jumps. Doesn't mean Carr will, but there is no basis for saying it will necessarily take several years.

TexanBacker93
04-09-2006, 10:10 AM
Right now Bush is the greatest college football player who ever played the game who nobody in the NFL really wants! Crazy!

Why do you get the impression nobody wants him? Do NFL GMs call you to ask if the Texans would part with the pick? Just curious.

Young seems to be the guy to me that less and less teams want. He could slip to 10 and might only get picked there if Green is convinced he can keep his job for another 2 years. In Arizona that's never a given.

If the 1st pick gets traded, it's Bush they are after.

thunderkyss
04-09-2006, 10:17 AM
It's the answer that counts, not the question. Just because you ask the same question about all of the prospects doesn't mean they are equal.


Really? The coaches think differently, but what do they know? Maybe you mean everyone on this board. Well no, that's not true either. Who is everybody - all "right thinking" people?

I wouldn't start any rookie, under any circumstance, week 1, and unless I'm already rebuilding, he might not start year 1...... I'm not the only one who thinks this way.... many NFL coaches approach the QB the same way.

Must be the folks that didn't see Drew Brees go from:


Or Jon Kitna in his 7th season going from:

Or Daunte Culpepper in his 5th year going from:

QB's make often make big one year performance jumps. Doesn't mean Carr will, but there is no basis for saying it will necessarily take several years.

#1, none of these QB's suffered from the mistakes Carr makes...... or have the problems Carr has.... not even in their rookie years.

#2 If you think we will be clicking on all cylinders, and playing in January 2007, that's you. I haven't heard the "consensus" make such claims yet.

TexanBacker93
04-09-2006, 10:24 AM
I dont know that tule. I still think its a lot closer to 50/50 then people on this board think. What do Derrick Johnson, Troy Williamson, Sean Taylor, Robert Gallery, Charles Rogers, Joey Harrington, Julius Peppers, Alex Barron, Kellen Winslow, and Deangelo Williams have in common. They are ALL players that people on this board have SWORE that the Texans were going to draft.


Well, some of these players were drafted before the Texans picked so there is no way of knowing if the Texans would have taken them had they been there. Since the team owns the 1st pick, it's going to be difficult for another team to draft ahead of them. They'll get the player they want. Some fans want Young. Some fans want Bush. Some fans want them to trade down.

In my opinion, some of the Young fans are just that; Young fans. They haven't been huge Texans fans. Sure, they might have cared at some level about the team, but they didn't go to the games, and they weren't members of this board until after the Rose Bowl. That doesn't make their opinions less valid, but it doesn't mean they know what is going to happen anymore than those fans that have been following the Texans since the day the team was awarded to Houston. I would be willing to bet that if we could poll 31 GMs around the league and asked them what they would do if they were running the Texans; all 31 would say draft Bush. It's a smarter football pick.

infantrycak
04-09-2006, 10:26 AM
#1, none of these QB's suffered from the mistakes Carr makes...... or have the problems Carr has.... not even in their rookie years.

So those QB's didn't have any problems with their games they just had bad stats and had big jumps in their performance without improving their games. :ok: They're not named Carr either which is more likely the real distinction.

#2 If you think we will be clicking on all cylinders, and playing in January 2007, that's you. I haven't heard the "consensus" make such claims yet.

I think what I said above--QB's make big jumps in performance often. That addressed your specific comment about Carr not having a one year turnaround. If you had said the Texans O will not be fully up and running in the 1st year I would have agreed with you.

thunderkyss
04-09-2006, 10:51 AM
So those QB's didn't have any problems with their games they just had bad stats and had big jumps in their performance without improving their games. :ok: They're not named Carr either which is more likely the real distinction.

are those my only choices?? they weren't prone to running into sacks.... I don't think any of them ran out of bounds with the ball behind the L.O.S. & if they did, I'm sure it was only once. I can't recall Dante falling down, and curling up in the fetal position... I don't think staring at a reciever was a problem any of them had(I'm not a big Drew Brees Fan, so I may be wrong here, on all accounts).
for the most part, interceptions, sacks and all, Dante, and Kitna, I was very high on when they came into the league. I always thought of Kitna as a smart Bret Favre(I see the error in that now). I think both needed time to adjust to the NFL, learn their schemes, and the talent around them needed to be improved. But through all their faults, I saw many, many sparks of greatness.
In all honesty, I thought Holmgren held on to Kitna 1 year to many, but it seems to have worked out for Mike anyway...... great guy, you gotta love him.



I think what I said above--QB's make big jumps in performance often. That addressed your specific comment about Carr not having a one year turnaround. If you had said the Texans O will not be fully up and running in the 1st year I would have agreed with you.

I said no one expects Carr to turn it around in one year......... not that no one expects Carr to turn around in one year. It was in response to someone saying it'll take Reggie 2 years before he becomes a bigger part of the O

TexanBacker93
04-09-2006, 10:51 AM
that's a good argument...since a running backs carreer usually averages about 4 years, Reggie Bush could be done by the time that Vince Young is coming into his prime.


That's averaging every running back to be on any roster. There are normally twice as many running backs on rosters each year than QBs. More than that if you count training camp rosters as well. Running backs don't necessarily last only 4 years. The good ones last much longer. People keep throwing out the 4 year rule like every running back is gone in 4 years. If Walter Payton plays 13 years and 3 late round picks or undrafted FA that get cut during training camp and never make onto another team are lumped together, the average life is 4 years. Look at the last round of the 2004 draft (Luke Staley, Jarrett Ferguson, Leonard Henry, Antwoine Womack) these guys lower the average life of a running back. They're drafted for training camp and possibly special teams spots. The next year the teams will find someone else and these players move on.

Focus on these numbers instead of the 4 year average:
Emmitt Smith 15 years
Walter Payton 13 years
Barry Sanders 10 years (still had gas in the tank)
Curtis Martin 11 years
Jerome Bettis 13 years
Eric Dickerson 12 years
Tony Dorsett 12 years
Jim Brown 9 years (still had gas in the tank)
Marshall Faulk 12 years
Marcus Allen 16 years

Earl Campbell had 9 years and probably could have had a longer career if he hadn't been overused in his first few years.

Reggie Bush has a much better chance of being in that class than a guy that is done in 4 years. Can he get hurt and have a shortened career like Terrell Davis? Of course. Although, Davis did have injury problems at Georgia. Young could also get hurt. I think it's unlikely, but Carson Palmer might never play again. A team can't draft or not draft someone because they might get hurt.

texman8
04-09-2006, 06:40 PM
Yes, Carr stunk it up last season. Did everyone forget DC threw for over 3400 yards in 2004 and that Texans won 7 games (shoulda been 8 wins). They had lowered the sack total by some 40 % from 2003.

Mmm...Capers decided to tinker with OL.....fired Palmer....put Pendry at OC..The results were a 2 - 14 season.

Now we have a new coaching staff...we've done a good job in FA season in bolstering our talent and depth. I have faith Kubiak can get Carr to perform to his ultimate abilities.

So, alot of ya believe Carr is a dawg; I'll just say with a better offensive scheme and coaching and more weapons, Carr can do it. IMO

swtbound07
04-09-2006, 07:52 PM
]Well, some of these players were drafted before the Texans picked so there is no way of knowing if the Texans would have taken them had they been there.[/B] Since the team owns the 1st pick, it's going to be difficult for another team to draft ahead of them. They'll get the player they want. Some fans want Young. Some fans want Bush. Some fans want them to trade down.

In my opinion, some of the Young fans are just that; Young fans. They haven't been huge Texans fans. Sure, they might have cared at some level about the team, but they didn't go to the games, and they weren't members of this board until after the Rose Bowl. That doesn't make their opinions less valid, but it doesn't mean they know what is going to happen anymore than those fans that have been following the Texans since the day the team was awarded to Houston. I would be willing to bet that if we could poll 31 GMs around the league and asked them what they would do if they were running the Texans; all 31 would say draft Bush. It's a smarter football pick.


Then you miss my point. The point wasnt who was drafted, its that the texans somehow didnt manipulate the system to get the guy that people SWORE would be wearing our colors. Im just saying, this board has quite a track record of being grandly wrong on draft day.....i remember a number of people promising that ernest shazor wouldnt be available in round 4 and if he was there at the pick then we had to jump on him...dude went undrafted. People swearing derrick johnson was the consensus best defensive player in the draft and every gm was calling him linebacker of the century and the texans should TRADE UP to get him, much less pass on him for travis johnson. My point in all this is to say: Every year we get worked up, and have theories and conjectures and hypothesis. This year is no different. No matter what circumstantial evidence you see, i call BS until the 29th. You dont know, so quit pretending like you do. is that unreasonable?

HJam72
04-10-2006, 03:54 AM
The title of this thread is, "Vince Young worked out and nobody cares?"

It should be, "Vince Young worked out and nobody cares!" :)

Hervoyel
04-10-2006, 09:45 PM
So I guess it was only Houstonians and UT alum at Vince's ProDay...... or does that lie fall to a different set of rules??

I didn't say anything about Vince's pro day so I don't know what "lie" you are talking about. Many people seem to think that he'll go the Raiders in the first round so obviously somebody other than the Texans wants him. If he miracled his way into the second round (I know it will never happen, I'm speaking hypothetically) then I'd be surprised if the Texans didn't take him and I'd think they got a steal.

I was responding to Nighthawks post where he suggested that nobody in the NFL wanted Reggie Bush. That was an absurd thing to say.

jerek
04-11-2006, 10:00 AM
are those my only choices?? they weren't prone to running into sacks.... I don't think any of them ran out of bounds with the ball behind the L.O.S. & if they did, I'm sure it was only once. I can't recall Dante falling down, and curling up in the fetal position... I don't think staring at a reciever was a problem any of them had(I'm not a big Drew Brees Fan, so I may be wrong here, on all accounts).
for the most part, interceptions, sacks and all, Dante, and Kitna, I was very high on when they came into the league. I always thought of Kitna as a smart Bret Favre(I see the error in that now). I think both needed time to adjust to the NFL, learn their schemes, and the talent around them needed to be improved. But through all their faults, I saw many, many sparks of greatness.
In all honesty, I thought Holmgren held on to Kitna 1 year to many, but it seems to have worked out for Mike anyway...... great guy, you gotta love him.

I said no one expects Carr to turn it around in one year......... not that no one expects Carr to turn around in one year. It was in response to someone saying it'll take Reggie 2 years before he becomes a bigger part of the O

I will take Carr running out of bounds behind the line before I take Daunte fumbling or throwing a bonehead INT. Both are stupid mistakes, but one of them costs your team the ball, and the other doesn't. As for Kitna ... how long has he been in the league? Two pretty good years out of nine in the league ... that makes him better than Carr how? Do the math. Some people like Vince Young, some people don't like David Carr, and you've lost just about all objectivity in being both.

thunderkyss
04-11-2006, 12:21 PM
I will take Carr running out of bounds behind the line before I take Daunte fumbling or throwing a bonehead INT. Both are stupid mistakes, but one of them costs your team the ball, and the other doesn't. As for Kitna ... how long has he been in the league? Two pretty good years out of nine in the league ... that makes him better than Carr how? Do the math. Some people like Vince Young, some people don't like David Carr, and you've lost just about all objectivity in being both.

I don't like Kitna........ I was a fan of his when he got drafted. I trusted Holmgrens judgement of talent, and was impressed with his play, the first 3 or so years of his carreer. I don't think he stepped up to what he needed to do...... I'll agree it's kind of hard to take control of an offense with Holmgren on the sideline, but Kitna needed to establish himself as Field General..... like Hassleback has done....... He also had to get better, and make less mistakes the more he played. He didn't do either...... he didn't take charge in Cincy, and he kept making the same mistakes, so he's not in Cincy either.......

Dante hasn't had a running game since Robert Smith retired. They've been one dimensional for the longest time, with a WR who "takes" plays off. Robert Smith, and Chris Carter...... that's what made the Vikings back in the day. no doubt, Randy helped, but I don't think he was worth keeping trough all his baggage.

I can't wait to see Dante in Miami.... with Chris Chambers, and Ricky Williams(fingers crossed) or Ronnie Brown....... oooohhhh... oooooohhh.... weeeee........ very exciting indeed....

texan279
04-11-2006, 12:29 PM
I don't like Kitna........ I was a fan of his when he got drafted. I trusted Holmgrens judgement of talent, and was impressed with his play, the first 3 or so years of his carreer. I don't think he stepped up to what he needed to do...... I'll agree it's kind of hard to take control of an offense with Holmgren on the sideline, but Kitna needed to establish himself as Field General..... like Hassleback has done....... He also had to get better, and make less mistakes the more he played. He didn't do either...... he didn't take charge in Cincy, and he kept making the same mistakes, so he's not in Cincy either.......

Dante hasn't had a running game since Robert Smith retired. They've been one dimensional for the longest time, with a WR who "takes" plays off. Robert Smith, and Chris Carter...... that's what made the Vikings back in the day. no doubt, Randy helped, but I don't think he was worth keeping trough all his baggage.

I can't wait to see Dante in Miami.... with Chris Chambers, and Ricky Williams(fingers crossed) or Ronnie Brown....... oooohhhh... oooooohhh.... weeeee........ very exciting indeed....

Robert Smith retired after 2000, he and Daunte only played one season together. Minnesota's running game didn't go to crap until last season. In 2004 their rushing offense was ranked 18th in the NFL, in 2003 it was ranked 4th in the NFL, in 2002 it was ranked 1st in the NFL.

jerek
04-11-2006, 12:48 PM
I can't wait to see Dante in Miami.... with Chris Chambers, and Ricky Williams(fingers crossed) or Ronnie Brown....... oooohhhh... oooooohhh.... weeeee........ very exciting indeed....

I could agree with that. Saban is making himself a squad out there.

tulexan
04-11-2006, 01:10 PM
If Daunte is healthy, Miami could very well be the team to beat in the AFC next year.

Chicagotexan1
04-11-2006, 01:50 PM
This is the triumph of the small-minded. I'm stunned. This board has gone dead.

Yeah, I know it's unlikely we'll make the smart move and take Young, or better yet, trade down and still take Young, but for his workout here not to cause the slightest stir is thought prokoking.

Maybe it's just as well. Bush will be fine, or, if we're lucky, somebody else will want Bush enough to make a decent offer for him (and I think we'd trade the #1 for anything approaching a decent offer).

Right now Bush is the greatest college football player who ever played the game who nobody in the NFL really wants! Crazy!


Nope, he's not the player I want. At least not at #1 overall. The fervor for VY coming to Houston is only contained to Houston. And mainly because he's from Houston. That's not good enough. ConVINCE me he is the BPA, then I'll want him, but Reggie Bush is the BPA and that's who I want.

hollywood_texan
04-11-2006, 02:31 PM
Nope, he's not the player I want. At least not at #1 overall. The fervor for VY coming to Houston is only contained to Houston. And mainly because he's from Houston. That's not good enough. ConVINCE me he is the BPA, then I'll want him, but Reggie Bush is the BPA and that's who I want.

We shouldn't draft the best player available. We should draft the best player that fits our system.

First figure out the system that has the best chances of winning championship and then evaluate the talent and draft accordingly.

Bush will probably have an amazing career, but that doesn't guarantee he will win a championship. It's amazing how many one-in-a-lifetime talents are unable to win a championship in any sport at the highest level.

My opinion, the best system to win a Super Bowl is a stout defense and churning up yards between the tackles. Living off of creating mismatches with defenses works in the regular season and can put up gaudy stats, but when crunch time hits, those teams have a hard time succeeding. Most recent example is the Colts.

thunderkyss
04-11-2006, 02:43 PM
Robert Smith retired after 2000, he and Daunte only played one season together. Minnesota's running game didn't go to crap until last season. In 2004 their rushing offense was ranked 18th in the NFL, in 2003 it was ranked 4th in the NFL, in 2002 it was ranked 1st in the NFL.

Hey, I've always said I've got a bad memory...... I thought he Smith & Dante were together for two years....... I'm almost sure of it. as for the Vikings running game ranking 18th, 4th, and 1st......... shew, I can't remember that either....... who was doing all that runnig?? I didn't think they had a running back worth taliking about.

DRAMA
04-11-2006, 02:49 PM
That's true at 25 but not necessarily true at 1. If we could pick a player that would guarantee championships then of course we should do it. However, there are no guarantees so you take best player in the country. Granted, there are several who could be considered BPA - Bush, Vince, Mario, Brick but how do you decide? None are locks to be champions.

Kubiak, I believe, thinks with Bush he'll have a weapon that is unique at this point in the NFL. It's not a bad strategy if the other holes are filled as well...which have been pretty well addressed so far. Add Winston at #2, Hali, Tapp, Colledge or Eslinger at 3's and maybe a fast WR like Orr at 4 and you're doing pretty well, IMHO.

JAXwithanX
04-11-2006, 07:19 PM
I personally believe we will be taking Bush because of more than anything...our circumstances. First year head coach, team who tumbled from average to abyssmal, and the need to win now in this city are all aspects that have to be considered. These are the times when you take the player that best insures an immediate impact. To draft someone with the Number 1 pick right now....and have them bust....would be detrimental to all levels of the organization. More FO staff would be fired, people would lose faith in coach, player morale would be down further. Because even if Number 2 goes on to be better than the player you drafted number 1, as long as your pick did his part to improve the record and fill a need, no one is going to revolt. To sum up my feelings really, I think VY will end up being the best player, I think Bush is going to great maybe even as good, and I don't blame our team one bit for not gambling on VY. We just can't do it in this situation. Especially after the way people are excited from our offseason transactions already.

Chicagotexan1
04-12-2006, 08:04 AM
We shouldn't draft the best player available. We should draft the best player that fits our system.

First figure out the system that has the best chances of winning championship and then evaluate the talent and draft accordingly.

Bush will probably have an amazing career, but that doesn't guarantee he will win a championship. It's amazing how many one-in-a-lifetime talents are unable to win a championship in any sport at the highest level.

My opinion, the best system to win a Super Bowl is a stout defense and churning up yards between the tackles. Living off of creating mismatches with defenses works in the regular season and can put up gaudy stats, but when crunch time hits, those teams have a hard time succeeding. Most recent example is the Colts.

No one player guarantees a championship. Not Reggie, not Vince not a one. As far as drafting for our system, well we have a O-minded HC so why not give him the best Offesive player available. Reggie Bush.

thunderkyss
04-12-2006, 09:03 AM
I personally believe we will be taking Bush because of more than anything...our circumstances. First year head coach, team who tumbled from average to abyssmal, and the need to win now in this city are all aspects that have to be considered. These are the times when you take the player that best insures an immediate impact.
Well.......
Trust me..... if Houston picks up Vince Young, The need to win now is greatly diminished......... even if we start Carr.

Prior to Jan 5, we all thought our biggest need was OL...... so much so, that taking an OL with the #1 overall wasn't out of the question. Things said about Pitts, Resigning Weary, and solidifying McKinney's position at LG pretty much killed that idea.
Next, we thought our pass rush was the next biggest need to pick up our defensive play. We thought Mario Williams would be a good pick with the #1 overall. Gary Kubiak seems to have the stop the run first defensive mindset, and picked up Anthony weaver...... $13 million contract, big bonus, he's going to start. GK has said that he believes A.Peek, an J.Babin will provide a decent if not good pass rush. Then we've got Nd Kalu........ who I believe is a pretty balanced end...... decent against the run, strong enough to bull rush the QB...... IF we keep Weaver, Peek, Babin, and Kalu, that'll be a really nice defensive rotation.
I'm more than happy giving Buchanon the starting job to open the season, especially in the 4-3. I think he & Faggins will play alot better with the CB responsibilities more streamlined. I like CC Brown at Free Safety........ I've never thought CB, FS, WR was that big of a need.
T.E. we did need. Jeb Putzier is young, he's good, and he is versatile. Good size, good hands, and good speed. He was the top rated T.E. in FA, with other notables, like Chad Lewis, and Dan Campbell. Two Prety good TEs.
And that's it...... our biggest needs.

We're down to two runnigbacks....... we need to add another RB to our roster. I've got a mancrush on a particular QB... though. For me, a perfect Draft would be to trade down with New York. They take Reggie, we take Vince @4, then we take D'Angelo, Mauroney, or Addai with the 29th....... or put our 32nd & 33rd together to move up and get one of them.

To draft someone with the Number 1 pick right now....and have them bust....would be detrimental to all levels of the organization. More FO staff would be fired, people would lose faith in coach, player morale would be down further.
I don't think so. We've dealt with #1 overall busts pretty well so far. Capers is gone, Cass will be leaving pretty soon. If the NFL front office rumors are true. So we don't have many more F.O. positions we really care about. I mean No one even remembers Feren....Pheren(sp)??

Now, I addressed needs earlier.......... Let's talk about wants.
There are alot of Texans fans that wanted another playmaker to take pressure off David Car, and Andre Johnson. Reggie Bush was/is thought to be that guy. But think about it. Andre, Moulds(two #1 WRs, two ProBowlers)... Jeb Putz..... let's look at his scouting report:
Acquired: Draft #6 (191st overall), 2002

• Putzier enjoyed the finest season of his career in 2004 as he ranked fourth among AFC tight ends (9th in NFL) with 572 yards receiving and placed 12th in receptions by an AFC tight end with 36.
• His 15.9 yards-per-reception average led the AFC (2nd in NFL) among eligible tight ends and was the best average by a Broncos tight end in 25 years (No. 3 all-time).

2004: Putzier’s athleticism gave Denver the ability to stretch the field during the 2004 regular season game, and the former college receiver led the Broncos’ tight ends with 36 catches for 572 yards (15.9 avg.) in 16 games (5 starts). He ranked fourth in the AFC (9th in NFL) among tight ends in receiving yards while he placed 12th in receptions by an AFC tight end. He led the AFC (2nd in NFL) among eligible tight ends with a 15.9 yards-per-reception average, which was the best average by a Broncos tight end in 25 years (No. 3 all-time). In addition to his duties at tight end, Putzier took on added responsibility as an H-back for Denver in certain formations. In Denver’s regular-season finale vs. Ind. (1/2), he recorded a career-high 67 yards receiving on three catches (22.3 avg.) as Denver clinched a playoff spot for the second consecutive year. He enjoyed one of his strongest games of the season at Tenn. (12/25) with four receptions for 60 yards (15.0 avg.). He used his speed to pick up 34 yards on a reception against the Titans that moved Denver to the Tennessee 6-yard line on its way to a touchdown. With the Broncos opening their game at K.C. (12/19) in a two tight-end set, he started and caught three passes for 30 yards (10.0 avg.). Putzier converted a fourth-and-6 in the fourth quarter vs. Mia. (12/12) with a 19-yard reception, and he totaled two catches for 30 yards (15.0 avg.) in Denver’s win against the Dolphins. He kept the Broncos’ comeback attempt alive at S.D. (12/5) with a career-high 39-yard catch, his only reception, in the fourth quarter. Putzier’s lone catch vs. Oak. (11/28) was an 18-yard reception in the first quarter. He was significantly involved in Denver’s offense at N.O. (11/21), catching four passes for 36 yards (9.0 avg.). In the third quarter against the Saints, he caught three passes (10, 9 and 11 yds.) that went for first downs. Putzier hauled in a highlight-reel worthy 34-yard touchdown in the first quarter vs. Hou. (11/7) as part of a two-catch, 48-yard (24.0 avg.) receiving day against the Texans. On his touchdown reception, Putzier caught the pass from Jake Plummer and then froze Texans cornerback Dunta Robinson with a stutter step along the left sideline before he raced in for the score. His speed turned a short catch into a career-long 38-yard reception in the second quarter vs. Atl. (10/31) during a two-catch, 47-yard (23.5 avg.) day against the Falcons. On Monday Night Football at Cin. (10/25), Putzier was held without a catch for only the second time this season. With three catches for 52 yards (17.3 avg.) along with his first career touchdown, Putzier led all Broncos in receiving at Oak. (10/17) while making his first start since the opener. Putzier’s day against the Raiders was highlighted by a 12-yard scoring catch in the first quarter as well as a 28-yard reception, which tied a career high, in the second quarter.

mmmm..hmmm....... pretty exciting stuff.

So we've got 2 #1 WRs on the field for every play. Both ProBowlers. then we have another WR playing T.E. who can be split out to the slot or moved to the HB position if needed. We've already got a pass catching H.B.who has avg 4.1 YPC over 3 years & a pass catching F.B.

Without Reggie Bush, or Vince Young, we've got one heck of a team..... a heck of a team........ Offense anyway....... a capable defense.

jerek
04-12-2006, 09:23 AM
If Daunte is healthy, Miami could very well be the team to beat in the AFC next year.

Let's not go that far.