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View Full Version : Career Numbers on RB/VY Take a LOOK...


Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 03:01 PM
Reggie Bush Career Stats
Games Played 39
RUSHING ATT 433 YRDS 3312 LOSS 143 NET 3169 TD 25 AVG 7.32
PASSING ATT 3 COMP 1 YRDS 52 TD 1 INT 0
Two Point Conv 0
Receiving NO 95 YDS 1301 TD 13 AVG 13.69474
Punt Returns No 44 559 TD 3 AVG 12.70455
Kick off Returns NO 67 YDS 1522 TD 1 AVG 22.71642
CAREER TOTAL TD 43 POINTS 258

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=657&player=5

Vince Young Career Totals
Games Played 37
RUSHING ATT 457 YRDS 3448 LOSS 321 NET 3127 TD 37 AVG 6.84
PASSING ATT 718 COMP 444 YRDS 6040 TD 44 INT 28
Two Point Conv 2
Receiving NO 1 YDS 48 TD 0
CAREER TOTAL TD 81 POINTS 488

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=703&player=10


Who is your #1 now that you can see the total career numbers!
I though Bush was a TD freak on Special Teams????? ONLY 4 TD's total???
Bush has a career Yard Per Carry higher at 7.32 VY 6.84
WOW I was a for sure gunner for Reggie Bush, I think this has me questioning the choice. I think Reggie Looked awsome, is the man more hype than truth??

Mike Kerns
04-05-2006, 03:03 PM
...........Yawn...

TheOgre
04-05-2006, 03:04 PM
It is obvious that the realization we are taking Bush hasn't sunk in for some fans. Compare all you want. It won't alter the outcome.

Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 03:04 PM
NOTE: I am Bias towards the #1 pick, I just found this mind blowing! And Vince played two fewer games as well!! Really odd in my opinion how the media makes things look in comparison to fact's!

Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 03:10 PM
I wonder if the non-bias scouts look at these numbers. I mean alot of people make comments based on either their hate towards Reggie or their hate towards Vince. If you are a bias thrid party, the numbers speak a different language than what the media prevails. There are alot of comments like, Bush average Yards per carry is what makes him special, Vince Youngs is higher. Vince is super sccurate, he had 28 INT. Just food for thought!

infantrycak
04-05-2006, 03:11 PM
FYI--3127 yds in 457 attempts is 6.84 ypc not 7.55. Whoever did the ypc calculation used net yards for Bush and gross yards for Young--not exactly apples to apples.

You also cannot just look at ypc on a QB and RB and conclude who is a better runner. The running is done at different times. By that standard, David Carr was a better rusher than every starting RB in the NFL last year since none averaged more than his 5.5 ypc. The comparison is simply spurious.

Texans_Chick
04-05-2006, 03:13 PM
Reggie Bush Career Stats
Games Played 39
RUSHING ATT 433 YRDS 3312 LOSS 143 NET 3169 TD 25 AVG 7.32
PASSING ATT 3 COMP 1 YRDS 52 TD 1 INT 0
Two Point Conv 0
Receiving NO 95 YDS 1301 TD 13 AVG 13.69474
Punt Returns No 44 559 TD 3 AVG 12.70455
Kick off Returns NO 67 YDS 1522 TD 1 AVG 22.71642
CAREER TOTAL TD 43 POINTS 258

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=657&player=5

Vince Young Career Totals
Games Played 37
RUSHING ATT 457 YRDS 3448 LOSS 321 NET 3127 TD 37 AVG 7.55
PASSING ATT 718 COMP 444 YRDS 6040 TD 44 INT 28
Two Point Conv 2
Receiving NO 1 YDS 48 TD 0
CAREER TOTAL TD 81 POINTS 488

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=703&player=10


Who is your #1 now that you can see the total career numbers!
I though Bush was a TD freak on Special Teams????? ONLY 4 TD's total???
I also thought Bush had a higher Yards Per Carry than VY??? VY 7.55 RB 7.32
WOW I was a for sure gunner for Reggie Bush, I think this has me questioning the choice. I think Reggie Looked awsome, is the man more hype than truth??


2006 is a scary good draft. Arguably, last year, both Young and Bush had performances that could easily rank among the best years ever for a college athlete AS JUNIORS.

See e.g.: Link: ESPN pg2 Best individual college football seasons (http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/collegefootball/seasons.html)

And you have Mario (measurables compared to Peppers), D'Brick and any number of guys that could be pretty dang good.

And you say "Only 4TDs?" Do you want him to walk on water too? :confused: After a while a great returner will stop getting challenged because they know what he can do and they will kick away.

We are gonna get a remarkable player. McNair has expressed an interest in a player that means we win faster. It is looking like that translates into a show of support for Carr and getting Bush.

You might be sad that VY is not likely to be a Texans player, but Reggie ain't chopped liver. We are not gonna be settling.

wags
04-05-2006, 03:15 PM
Stat lines don't define either of these players.

In regards to VY and his rushing avgerage, QB's should have a high ypc average because the defense is so spread out when they take off. You know who had the highest YPC for the Texans last year? David Carr at 5.5 YPC.

Eyeguy
04-05-2006, 03:33 PM
Reggie Bush Career Stats
Games Played 39
RUSHING ATT 433 YRDS 3312 LOSS 143 NET 3169 TD 25 AVG 7.32
PASSING ATT 3 COMP 1 YRDS 52 TD 1 INT 0
Two Point Conv 0
Receiving NO 95 YDS 1301 TD 13 AVG 13.69474
Punt Returns No 44 559 TD 3 AVG 12.70455
Kick off Returns NO 67 YDS 1522 TD 1 AVG 22.71642
CAREER TOTAL TD 43 POINTS 258

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=657&player=5

Vince Young Career Totals
Games Played 37
RUSHING ATT 457 YRDS 3448 LOSS 321 NET 3127 TD 37 AVG 7.55
PASSING ATT 718 COMP 444 YRDS 6040 TD 44 INT 28
Two Point Conv 2
Receiving NO 1 YDS 48 TD 0
CAREER TOTAL TD 81 POINTS 488

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=703&player=10


Who is your #1 now that you can see the total career numbers!
I though Bush was a TD freak on Special Teams????? ONLY 4 TD's total???
I also thought Bush had a higher Yards Per Carry than VY??? VY 7.55 RB 7.32
WOW I was a for sure gunner for Reggie Bush, I think this has me questioning the choice. I think Reggie Looked awsome, is the man more hype than truth??

Give it up, it's BUSH. The cards have been played.

KSig44
04-05-2006, 03:38 PM
WOW, VY was the better college player. But who owns a Heisman?

You can scrap those rushing yards for Young though, no way he runs like that against bigger and faster LB's and safteys. Esspecially at a 4.57.

Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 03:39 PM
FYI--3127 yds in 457 attempts is 6.84 ypc not 7.55. Whoever did the ypc calculation used net yards for Bush and gross yards for Young--not exactly apples to apples.

You also cannot just look at ypc on a QB and RB and conclude who is a better runner. The running is done at different times. By that standard, David Carr was a better rusher than every starting RB in the NFL last year since none averaged more than his 5.5 ypc. The comparison is simply spurious.

3127, where did you get that number???? OHHH I made a mistake, my bad, you are right 6.84

el toro
04-05-2006, 03:41 PM
The shotgun and ad-lib rushing play won't exist in the NFL so you can take Young's #s and flush them.

infantrycak
04-05-2006, 03:43 PM
3127, where did you get that number???? OHHH I made a mistake, my bad, you are right 6.84

A little further along the stat line in your original post:

RUSHING ATT 457 YRDS 3448 LOSS 321 NET 3127 TD 37 AVG 7.55

If you do the calculations you can see whoever did the calculation used gross yards on Young and net yards on Bush. Either way one should be used for both--I gave you the net since it is the more conventional measure.

Young gross ypc 7.55, net ypc 6.84
Bush gross ypc 7.64, net ypc 7.32

Italics being the original comparison. As you can see, Bush actually averaged higher in any apples to apples comparison.

Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 03:47 PM
The correction have been maid!

Texans_Chick
04-05-2006, 03:58 PM
Stat lines don't define either of these players.

In regards to VY and his rushing avgerage, QB's should have a high ypc average because the defense is so spread out when they take off. You know who had the highest YPC for the Texans last year? David Carr at 5.5 YPC.


If you look at Carr's YPC in college, they were dinky.

93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs in his final season.

David Carr has better than average wheels for a QB, but he does better when he stays in the pocket.

If Carr had 5.5 YPC after the anemic running he did in college, what would a Young be able to do, whose college stats are beyond comprehension?

I know people like to denigrate Young, partially because of the ardor of some of the pro-Young posters, (and maybe partly to make themselves feel a little better that he isn't coming here or is gonna go to a competitor), but if I were a betting person, looking at VY's stats and play, I wouldn't bet against him succeeding on the next level.

I just don't understand why people have to be ugly on this subject. It is funny to me because folks accuse us women folks about being all emotional about stuff, but the whole VY/Bush rhetoric is beyond hysterics.

KSig44
04-05-2006, 04:02 PM
And defenses don't expect Carr to run. He can't beat them running. defenses will be expecting Young to run, will he have some success, sure. But if Michael Vick struggles to scramble while running a sub 4.4, how will young do if he runs the same speed as most LB's?

Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 04:03 PM
The numbers prove that they are going to both be better at the next level! I just wanted to bring to life actuall facts based on performance of these two players. Agruments have been maid about their ability, I just found if funny that stats show a much more productive player out of Young, and the hype of Reggie Bush as this super special teams player is bogus! hE IS A GOOD special teamer but Mathis is way more of a threat!

wags
04-05-2006, 04:04 PM
If you look at Carr's YPC in college, they were dinky.

93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs in his final season.

David Carr has better than average wheels for a QB, but he does better when he stays in the pocket.

If Carr had 5.5 YPC after the anemic running he did in college, what would a Young be able to do, whose college stats are beyond comprehension?

I know people like to denigrate Young, partially because of the ardor of some of the pro-Young posters, (and maybe partly to make themselves feel a little better that he isn't coming here or is gonna go to a competitor), but if I were a betting person, looking at VY's stats and play, I wouldn't bet against him succeeding on the next level.

I just don't understand why people have to be ugly on this subject. It is funny to me because folks accuse us women folks about being all emotional about stuff, but the whole VY/Bush rhetoric is beyond hysterics.

:confused:

I wasn't knocking Young or comparing him to Carr. Just pointing out that QB's who scramble should have a high YPC.

KSig44
04-05-2006, 04:07 PM
But they are two differant animals. With Young, running will be a focus of defenses, with Carr it isn't. If D's focused on Carr running, it would be closer to the college YPC.

infantrycak
04-05-2006, 04:07 PM
If Carr had 5.5 YPC after the anemic running he did in college, what would a Young be able to do, whose college stats are beyond comprehension?

I know people like to denigrate Young, partially because of the ardor of some of the pro-Young posters,

There is nothing denigrating in what wags or I was observing. It is a simple fact that there is a difference between running as a RB and running as a QB. There is no relation between ypc for Young and for Bush just like there isn't for Carr and DD. Guaranteed you line up Carr and Young as RB's and they won't have the same ypc.

As for the Carr .8 ypc in college vs. 5.5 ypc in the pros you have a classic case of having to look beyond the stats. Carr had decent to good protection in college and no designed run plays. Folks have been very surprised at his mobility in the NFL because he didn't have to display it in college, but he still isn't such a rushing threat that teams are game planning against his rushing. The situation isn't the same for Young where he has had all sorts of designed running plays, option plays and has been game planned against as a rusher. There just isn't any realistic connection between .8 is to 5.5 so 6.8 is to 40 ypc.

Texans_Chick
04-05-2006, 04:49 PM
:confused:

I wasn't knocking Young or comparing him to Carr. Just pointing out that QB's who scramble should have a high YPC.


Apologies. I should have done my Carr/VY observation in a different post than my general observation about the vehement stuff that is flung back and forth as it relates to VY/Bush.

texplayer2
04-05-2006, 04:52 PM
Reggie Bush Career Stats
PASSING ATT 3 COMP 1 YRDS 52 TD 1 INT 0

Vince Young Career Totals

PASSING ATT 718 COMP 444 YRDS 6040 TD 44 INT 28


Wow I didn't know Reggie was such a good passer! Touchdown pass 33% of the time he threw the ball!??? It was a 52 yard avg. on the touch too! He is definitely not a short yardage guy! That just makes the pick real easy. Young was closer to 5% TD per attempt with all day to throw and actual training to be a QB.

Texans_Chick
04-05-2006, 04:54 PM
And defenses don't expect Carr to run. He can't beat them running. defenses will be expecting Young to run, will he have some success, sure. But if Michael Vick struggles to scramble while running a sub 4.4, how will young do if he runs the same speed as most LB's?

Just statistically, Young in college was a more accurate thrower than Vick was and had more YPC and more total yards.

At least in college, when teams played the run, he threw. When they played the throw, he ran.

Though VY is not as fast as Vick, he is bigger and harder to bring down. The way he runs makes it difficult to figure out tackle angles.

People who characterize VY as merely a running QB or a taller bigger Vick, I think are missing the boat.

Texans_Chick
04-05-2006, 04:58 PM
As for the Carr .8 ypc in college vs. 5.5 ypc in the pros you have a classic case of having to look beyond the stats. Carr had decent to good protection in college and no designed run plays. Folks have been very surprised at his mobility in the NFL because he didn't have to display it in college, but he still isn't such a rushing threat that teams are game planning against his rushing. The situation isn't the same for Young where he has had all sorts of designed running plays, option plays and has been game planned against as a rusher. There just isn't any realistic connection between .8 is to 5.5 so 6.8 is to 40 ypc.

Yeah, but it does make you ponder, just as a different way of looking at things.

With his ability as a passer and a runner, it does make you wonder what is possible for VY as a QB. Even when you compare him to good running QBs, his stats make other college QBs stats look anemic. There are no good college QB comparison's to VY, so it is hard to figure out how he might turn out.

KSig44
04-05-2006, 05:03 PM
Are we? I don't blame VY totally for this, it falls on Mack Brown to. VY will not get to run his improisational shotgun offense in the NFL, he will be under center. And the LB's are bigger and faster in the NFL than college. Brown comprimised VY's development to help the team win, can't really blame him for that, but it would have helped the arguments we are having if VY ran a bit more standardized and traditional offenses than one of his own. I for one do think he will be a Vivk type with less speed. He did have success in college passing, but it was primarily to RB's and the TE. When he did throw to WR's with any consistency, it was against lesser talent. Can VY succeed in the NFL, sure he can. But he will have to do like McNair did and sit and watch and learn for a few years and fight his instincts and take off past the line of scrimage at the first signs of trouble.

Texans_Chick
04-05-2006, 06:12 PM
Are we? I don't blame VY totally for this, it falls on Mack Brown to. VY will not get to run his improisational shotgun offense in the NFL, he will be under center. And the LB's are bigger and faster in the NFL than college. Brown comprimised VY's development to help the team win, can't really blame him for that, but it would have helped the arguments we are having if VY ran a bit more standardized and traditional offenses than one of his own. I for one do think he will be a Vivk type with less speed. He did have success in college passing, but it was primarily to RB's and the TE. When he did throw to WR's with any consistency, it was against lesser talent. Can VY succeed in the NFL, sure he can. But he will have to do like McNair did and sit and watch and learn for a few years and fight his instincts and take off past the line of scrimage at the first signs of trouble.

I guess USC was lesser talent: Rose Bowl Stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/bowls05/bowls?game=rose) It didn't look like the WR stats were particularly anemic.

They might not have had the highest ranked defense, but USC was ranked #1 in turnovers gained and turnover margin.

I really do not get the comparison between VY and Mike Vick. They appear to be very different players.

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs


Vince is slower but had more yards.

I think that Vince is way ahead of where McNair was at the same stage of development. He has certainly seen more complex defenses and harder competition.

Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 07:39 PM
The truth about this matter is that Vince had better numbers as a rusher than Bush did, and bush was a RB on a team with a Heisman Trophy QB and another first round running back. Vince created his numbers, and dominated opposing defenses with his Arm and Legs. It took Matt Leinart, and Lendale White to make Reggie what he was. Matt kept the safteys/corners in check, White wore down the linebackers, and all of thier work made Bush so effective to bounce the ball outside. Teams did not single handedly focus on Bush as they did with Young in fear of the deep ball by Leinart. The thing with Young is his passing was so great that the teams focusing on the run were picked apart in the passing game, and teams who tried to balance their defense to compensate for Youngs arm were destroyed with his running capabilities. Young will be more of a threat for opposing defenses than Reggie Bush do to the fact that he is harder to tackle, tough enough to have the ball in his hands every play, and he is Bushes equal in openfield running capability ( ie juking, and play faking). Which is better, having a guy who scares a defense every play of offense, or having Bush who will be scary for 17 plays a game.

Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 08:35 PM
In terms of Numbers, who helped their team more, Reggie or Vince? USC would be in the National Championship with or without Reggie, look towards previous years when he was a smaller factor in the scheme of things. Texas with out Vince would not have played in the BIG VII Championship Game!

thunderkyss
04-05-2006, 09:36 PM
Yeah, but it does make you ponder, just as a different way of looking at things.

With his ability as a passer and a runner, it does make you wonder what is possible for VY as a QB. Even when you compare him to good running QBs, his stats make other college QBs stats look anemic. There are no good college QB comparison's to VY, so it is hard to figure out how he might turn out.


One of the stranger things I've found about the VY/RB debate, is that the matchup problems Vince will create is underplayed, while the match up problems Reggie will create are overstated.......

Frank_The_Tank
04-05-2006, 09:50 PM
It is all media hype on Bush. Young has Ran better as a QB than Reggie as a Running Back, how sad is that! Don't get me wrong, Bush is great, a true gammer, but his stats do not measure up to the madness that is hyped about him! Looking at the numbers, I would say Vince has got the shaft from the media. They have been out to get the guy since day one. If you were to show these numbers I have posted on ESPN in front of the world, there would not even be a debate Vince being better than Bush, the numbers would say it all.

HJam72
04-05-2006, 10:19 PM
Blah, blah, blah....David Carr was a better rusher than every starting RB in the NFL last year....blah, blah, blah.

See, David rocks! :ok:

infantrycak
04-05-2006, 10:26 PM
See, David rocks! :ok:

Seriously. If you follow the non-logic/wilfull disregard of some folks in this thread the greatest single mistake of the ousted coaching staff was not designing rushing plays for Carr and going to an offense like VY ran since Carr is the greatest rusher in the NFL other than Vick---the ypc prove it.

Lucky
04-05-2006, 11:09 PM
Just statistically, Young in college was a more accurate thrower than Vick was...
Vick's redshirt soph season was marred by a high ankle sprain suffered in mid-season. That affected Mike's stats as a runner and a passer. During his freshman season, Vick led the nation in passing efficiency with a 180.37 QB rating. Vick was more of a downfield passer than Young, as his average completion went for over 20 yards. I don't think Vince would be considered as accurate if he had thrown downfield as often as Mike. As a pro, Vick is stifled in a short passing, ball control offense that is more suited for someone like...well, like Vince.

I agree with pretty much everything you said about Vince as a runner. He's great. It should also be noted that in the NCAA, sacks count against a player's rushing totals. Don't know why. That's why Carr's college totals are low compared to what he's shown as a pro.

texplayer2
04-05-2006, 11:15 PM
You guys have it wrong as far as Bush is concerned. Vince has good stats playing behind such a big line and being a good athlete.( he will not have as great an advantage in the pros. Reggie on the other hand was competing for time on a team with alot of stars. Good for the team, Bad for stats. Their was no waiting for white to tire out the defenseslol: . Reggie broke off runs early and often his junior year and as the competition was better so were his stats. Texas focused on stopping him and made white look unstoppable. fact is Reggie competed for his stats on a good TEAM and Vince was the Major part of his teams offense, which was designed just for his talents and that of a great line and D. If teams focus on Reggie their will be yards for DD,AJ and Moulds. If they play it straight up Bush will make them pay.:yahoo:

TexansLucky13
04-05-2006, 11:40 PM
I don't want to hear another post about Vince Young being "a better RB" than Reggie, and I CERTAINLY do not want to hear that "Vince Young did the job of Leinart, Bush and White all at the same time". It is a COMPLETELY different ANIMAL when you are dealing with a QB who can run as opposed to a RB. Do NOT bring that topic up again... it is uncomparable.

The fact is that by the end of Reggie's junior year, the hype was all on him. Vince Young was still a "who is that??", but Reggie took the stage long before the Rose Bowl. Defenses did everything they could to counteract him. When it is a QB, there is NO ONE who is set man-to-man with him unless they have a spy behind the line who acts both as QB contain and coverage. There is nothing more they can do in the NFL. That approach works fine to shut down Mike Vick, who you stated was a better runner that Vince is. So what does that mean?

Yes, it means that someone will be pulled off of a full zone coverage just to babysit Vince for the whole game. But what if Vince doesnt have his O-line anymore? What if he had an O-line that had no intentions of letting him break a 12 yard dash on every play? He would be forced to stay in the pocket.... which makes him less useful than Matt Leinart. Next year defenses will be taking away both Vince's running ability and his confidence. Leinart will go through the League as an above-average QB who never did anything unpredictable but was always reliable. How can you rely on someone who wants to play the entire game of football by himself? You can't.

The fact is, his abilities will be his downfall. He will end up being a Mike Vick (Overall rating of 73, and will be desperate this year to bring it up to a more respectable level if he wants to wear the Falcon helmet again in '07). Vince threw for more yards, but he wasnt injured like Mike was in college. Don't even make me get into the argument about how injury prone Vince will be in the NFL. All I have to say is.... one of the times that he tries to break a run and he doesnt notice an NFL LB closing on him fast, it will be his last game. He may be a big boy but he has never been a RB before, he has no idea what it feels like to take the hits.

Truth be told, I like the guys talent. Remember, my post is based on the idea of if Vince Young comes to the Texans, not any other team. If he goes to the Raiders, he may be able to generate huge numbers both with his feet and his hands. But not here. The O-line we have is not strong enough yet to support his habits. Maybe Todd Wade will go to the Raiders to help Vince.

tulexan
04-06-2006, 12:14 AM
Did I miss something? Since when is Reggie Bush a QB? How can we compare a QB to a RB, it makes no sense. Yes, they are two offensive players, but one throws the ball and one catches the ball. Of course Vince is going to have more yards and touchdowns because he is throwing to multiple targets while Reggie is one of a few targets for Matt Leinart.

MorKnolle
04-06-2006, 12:22 AM
I would certainly hope that a QB has more TDs than a RB, this stat comparison does not prove anything of who will be the better NFL player or who is the better fit for our team.

texan279
04-06-2006, 12:26 AM
This is getting funny, how can you compare college stats from a running back and a quarterback and use that as a determining factor to as who you should pick #1 overall to play in the NFL...

tulexan
04-06-2006, 12:27 AM
Maybe we should draft Mario Williams because he has more sacks than Vince and Reggie combined.

What a freak!!!!!

swtbound07
04-06-2006, 12:40 AM
I don't want to hear another post about Vince Young being "a better RB" than Reggie, and I CERTAINLY do not want to hear that "Vince Young did the job of Leinart, Bush and White all at the same time". It is a COMPLETELY different ANIMAL when you are dealing with a QB who can run as opposed to a RB. Do NOT bring that topic up again... it is uncomparable.

The fact is that by the end of Reggie's junior year, the hype was all on him. Vince Young was still a "who is that??", but Reggie took the stage long before the Rose Bowl. Defenses did everything they could to counteract him. When it is a QB, there is NO ONE who is set man-to-man with him unless they have a spy behind the line who acts both as QB contain and coverage. There is nothing more they can do in the NFL. That approach works fine to shut down Mike Vick, who you stated was a better runner that Vince is. So what does that mean?

Yes, it means that someone will be pulled off of a full zone coverage just to babysit Vince for the whole game. But what if Vince doesnt have his O-line anymore? What if he had an O-line that had no intentions of letting him break a 12 yard dash on every play? He would be forced to stay in the pocket.... which makes him less useful than Matt Leinart. Next year defenses will be taking away both Vince's running ability and his confidence. Leinart will go through the League as an above-average QB who never did anything unpredictable but was always reliable. How can you rely on someone who wants to play the entire game of football by himself? You can't.

The fact is, his abilities will be his downfall. He will end up being a Mike Vick (Overall rating of 73, and will be desperate this year to bring it up to a more respectable level if he wants to wear the Falcon helmet again in '07). Vince threw for more yards, but he wasnt injured like Mike was in college. Don't even make me get into the argument about how injury prone Vince will be in the NFL. All I have to say is.... one of the times that he tries to break a run and he doesnt notice an NFL LB closing on him fast, it will be his last game. He may be a big boy but he has never been a RB before, he has no idea what it feels like to take the hits.

Truth be told, I like the guys talent. Remember, my post is based on the idea of if Vince Young comes to the Texans, not any other team. If he goes to the Raiders, he may be able to generate huge numbers both with his feet and his hands. But not here. The O-line we have is not strong enough yet to support his habits. Maybe Todd Wade will go to the Raiders to help Vince.

So they invited him to new york as a finalist for the heisman....you know, BEFORE the rose bowl because he was a "who is that?" Stop rewriting history.

tulexan
04-06-2006, 12:43 AM
I think you could maybe say that about both players last season (soph seasons) before the bowl games

El Amigo Invisible
04-06-2006, 01:02 AM
There is nothing denigrating in what wags or I was observing. It is a simple fact that there is a difference between running as a RB and running as a QB. There is no relation between ypc for Young and for Bush just like there isn't for Carr and DD. Guaranteed you line up Carr and Young as RB's and they won't have the same ypc.

As for the Carr .8 ypc in college vs. 5.5 ypc in the pros you have a classic case of having to look beyond the stats. Carr had decent to good protection in college and no designed run plays. Folks have been very surprised at his mobility in the NFL because he didn't have to display it in college, but he still isn't such a rushing threat that teams are game planning against his rushing. The situation isn't the same for Young where he has had all sorts of designed running plays, option plays and has been game planned against as a rusher. There just isn't any realistic connection between .8 is to 5.5 so 6.8 is to 40 ypc.

The Eagles had their reasons for taking Mcnabb over Ricky Williams. We need to take the winner.

Frank_The_Tank
04-06-2006, 01:03 AM
The question how can we compare a RB and QB?, that is the amazing thing about it all, there should not be any debate about it, the Running Back should have way more yards rushing than the Quarterback, It just shows how special Vince Young is. Everyone in the media is compaing Reggie to the likes of Gale Sayers, people commenting on how great he is, if he is so great then Vince mush be by far the best talent in the history of the NCAA because he is a better rusher than Reggie Bush ( stats say it is so ) and he was the best thrower comming out (stats say its so). People are in awe of Reggies Moves, his special teams play, his catching ability. I look at his stats and I have to say he was a great running back. The fact that Young put up even better numbers as a rusher, and still dominated throwing the ball, makes me understand how much the media influence has on the draft. I guess it sucks to be from Texas, sorry Vince! Oh and as far as a shotgun QB, it sure did not hurt Alex Smiths stock last year!

El Amigo Invisible
04-06-2006, 01:07 AM
The question how can we compare a RB and QB?, that is the amazing thing about it all, there should not be any debate about it, the Running Back should have way more yards rushing than the Quarterback, It just shows how special Vince Young is. Everyone in the media is compaing Reggie to the likes of Gale Sayers, people commenting on how great he is, if he is so great then Vince mush be by far the best talent in the history of the NCAA because he is a better rusher than Reggie Bush ( stats say it is so ) and he was the best thrower comming out (stats say its so). People are in awe of Reggies Moves, his special teams play, his catching ability. I look at his stats and I have to say he was a great running back. The fact that Young put up even better numbers as a rusher, and still dominated throwing the ball, makes me understand how much the media influence has on the draft. I guess it sucks to be from Texas, sorry Vince! Oh and as far as a shotgun QB, it sure did not hurt Alex Smiths stock last year!
Reggie bulked up . Oh man i'm coniviced he will be perfect.I agree with you Dave.Poor Alex, He suck! I bet they wish Matteus came out early!

Frank_The_Tank
04-06-2006, 01:11 AM
Reggie Bulked up??? What????

El Amigo Invisible
04-06-2006, 01:13 AM
Reggie Bulked up??? What????
Not to impress. He did it because he was feeling a litte small.

texan279
04-06-2006, 01:19 AM
The question how can we compare a RB and QB?, that is the amazing thing about it all, there should not be any debate about it, the Running Back should have way more yards rushing than the Quarterback, It just shows how special Vince Young is. Everyone in the media is compaing Reggie to the likes of Gale Sayers, people commenting on how great he is, if he is so great then Vince mush be by far the best talent in the history of the NCAA because he is a better rusher than Reggie Bush ( stats say it is so ) and he was the best thrower comming out (stats say its so). People are in awe of Reggies Moves, his special teams play, his catching ability. I look at his stats and I have to say he was a great running back. The fact that Young put up even better numbers as a rusher, and still dominated throwing the ball, makes me understand how much the media influence has on the draft. I guess it sucks to be from Texas, sorry Vince! Oh and as far as a shotgun QB, it sure did not hurt Alex Smiths stock last year!

Just because player A has better or more impressive stats than player B does not automatically make player A the better player, especially when you're comparing two different positions.

Nighthawk
04-06-2006, 01:37 AM
You also cannot just look at ypc on a QB and RB and conclude who is a better runner. The running is done at different times. By that standard, David Carr was a better rusher than every starting RB in the NFL last year since none averaged more than his 5.5 ypc. The comparison is simply spurious.

Ordinarily, I'd agree. In cases where you're comparing 25 carries by a QB against 300 carries by a RB, the comparison would be spurious.

Here, however, when you are comparing approx the same number of carries for a RB and a runnign QB, the comparison is very apt.

The lore is that VY cannot and will not do that kind of running in the pro league.

The fact is we don't know what kind of running VY will do in the pros.

The statistics cited sure do suggest which of the two players is the bigger "difference maker" in the college game. But I think everybody already knew that. That's why people have been attacking VY since the Rose Bowl, citing time after time that what he did in college CAN'T be done in the NFL.

Tune in next year and see if the lemmings were right.

TreWardTxn
04-06-2006, 02:24 AM
Seriously. If you follow the non-logic/wilfull disregard of some folks in this thread the greatest single mistake of the ousted coaching staff was not designing rushing plays for Carr and going to an offense like VY ran since Carr is the greatest rusher in the NFL other than Vick---the ypc prove it.

You might feel a little bit differently next year when Carr bootlegs a lot, and on more than one occassion picks up a good 10-12 yard gain. Not exactly a designed run, but if it's there, why not? Kubiak's job is to get the most out of Carr as possible; he is athletic, he can run, he's not good enough to not use all his tools and still succeed...

Frank_The_Tank
04-06-2006, 02:30 AM
I think the problem with Carr is he tends to run out of bounds behind the line of scrimage alot on boot legs. If not that he gets sacked and or throws interceptions. He only ran a 4.8 40, its not like he has this breakaway speed! LOL Vince on the other hand I can see picking up those 20 to 30 yard runs when guys are not open!

TreWardTxn
04-06-2006, 02:46 AM
I don't want to hear another post about Vince Young being "a better RB" than Reggie, and I CERTAINLY do not want to hear that "Vince Young did the job of Leinart, Bush and White all at the same time". It is a COMPLETELY different ANIMAL when you are dealing with a QB who can run as opposed to a RB. Do NOT bring that topic up again... it is uncomparable.

The fact is that by the end of Reggie's junior year, the hype was all on him. Vince Young was still a "who is that??", but Reggie took the stage long before the Rose Bowl. Defenses did everything they could to counteract him. When it is a QB, there is NO ONE who is set man-to-man with him unless they have a spy behind the line who acts both as QB contain and coverage. There is nothing more they can do in the NFL. That approach works fine to shut down Mike Vick, who you stated was a better runner that Vince is. So what does that mean?

Yes, it means that someone will be pulled off of a full zone coverage just to babysit Vince for the whole game. But what if Vince doesnt have his O-line anymore? What if he had an O-line that had no intentions of letting him break a 12 yard dash on every play? He would be forced to stay in the pocket.... which makes him less useful than Matt Leinart. Next year defenses will be taking away both Vince's running ability and his confidence. Leinart will go through the League as an above-average QB who never did anything unpredictable but was always reliable. How can you rely on someone who wants to play the entire game of football by himself? You can't.

The fact is, his abilities will be his downfall. He will end up being a Mike Vick (Overall rating of 73, and will be desperate this year to bring it up to a more respectable level if he wants to wear the Falcon helmet again in '07). Vince threw for more yards, but he wasnt injured like Mike was in college. Don't even make me get into the argument about how injury prone Vince will be in the NFL. All I have to say is.... one of the times that he tries to break a run and he doesnt notice an NFL LB closing on him fast, it will be his last game. He may be a big boy but he has never been a RB before, he has no idea what it feels like to take the hits.

Truth be told, I like the guys talent. Remember, my post is based on the idea of if Vince Young comes to the Texans, not any other team. If he goes to the Raiders, he may be able to generate huge numbers both with his feet and his hands. But not here. The O-line we have is not strong enough yet to support his habits. Maybe Todd Wade will go to the Raiders to help Vince.


If you have a real point to make, then make it, but to sit here and say things like 'Young won't be able to take an NFL hit' are from beyond left field. Yeah, he's gonna get hit harder then he ever been in his life, every rookie get's that. But I bet you one thing, there's gonna be a time when an LB comes up on him and gets a two-step, and other times when he manhandles some DB on his way to a first down. If anyone has seen Young run they know he likes to take a good lick. He's already been hit by Hawk (said it was the hardest ever), got up and gave him a good pat on the helmet. He's not some Payton Manning type who gets pissy when he gets a grass stain.

99.9% of offensive players need a good line to be Pro Bowl successful (I'm only leaving out Barry) and of course both these guys will as well. If anything Young's ability to run will be a treat for an offense because it allows him to stay alive and make plays. His movement from the pocket isn't scripted and therefore the O-line doesn't need to block in any unified way once he's on the move, they just need to try to get in the way of a defender.

As for your "Who's that guy?" comment. Someone already pointed out how ridiculous that was...

thunderkyss
04-06-2006, 09:04 AM
Seriously. If you follow the non-logic/wilfull disregard of some folks in this thread the greatest single mistake of the ousted coaching staff was not designing rushing plays for Carr and going to an offense like VY ran since Carr is the greatest rusher in the NFL other than Vick---the ypc prove it.

The biggest mistake of the old regime, was coming up with that 1 step 3 step drop crap........ More shotgun, more bootlegs, more moving the pocket, tosses and pitches so the RBs attack the edges of the line.... there were so many things they could've/should've done to ease the pressure in the middle of the line.


Truth be told, I like the guys talent. Remember, my post is based on the idea of if Vince Young comes to the Texans, not any other team. If he goes to the Raiders, he may be able to generate huge numbers both with his feet and his hands. But not here. The O-line we have is not strong enough yet to support his habits. Maybe Todd Wade will go to the Raiders to help Vince.
:homer:
That's a homer argument if I ever heard one. Vince won't do well here, but if the Raiders picks up one of our discarded linemen, he'll excell...... :brickwall

infantrycak
04-06-2006, 09:50 AM
You might feel a little bit differently next year when Carr bootlegs a lot, and on more than one occassion picks up a good 10-12 yard gain. Not exactly a designed run, but if it's there, why not? Kubiak's job is to get the most out of Carr as possible; he is athletic, he can run, he's not good enough to not use all his tools and still succeed...

I won't be surprised at all if Carr bootlegs out frequently next year and picks up 10-12 yds--he did it last year to get his 5.5 ypc and picked up 1st downs 36% of the time he rushed. The point is everyone on this thread acting like a comparison of ypc between QB's and RB's is meaningful at all are simply making up an entirely specious argument in a transparent attempt to create yet another reason for drafting VY. Michael Vick and David Carr had higher average ypc last year than every starting RB in the league--they are not better rushers than Larry Johnson, LT, Portis, etc. David Carr has a career average of 4.8 (on 215 attempts) which is higher than every RB except Larry Johnson--he is not a better rusher than LT, Edge, Portis, etc..

This has to be one of the dumbest arguments ever cooked up around here.

Frank_The_Tank
04-06-2006, 10:24 AM
o.k. 214 carries, not minus all the sacks LOL If you measure that figure in Carr has negative rushing yards. You guys are trying so hard but your facts are way off. It is so funny how easy it is to prove that Bush is all hype! It amazes me what kind of crap you pro-Bush guys can come up with. LOL

Frank_The_Tank
04-06-2006, 11:45 AM
It is kinda weird that you pro-Bush guys are not responding so well towards the numbers, LOL. When can you bring a honest argument. Tell how Reggie Bush is a better runner than Vince Young. Show me numbers, you know what you can't! Bush, #1 overall, o.k. I just don't see it! All media driven. After we see that price tag we will trade down so it does not matter. He is not worth the money, given that we have a starting Rb and we drafted one last year.

CarrIsFine
04-06-2006, 12:16 PM
o.k. 214 carries, not minus all the sacks LOL If you measure that figure in Carr has negative rushing yards. You guys are trying so hard but your facts are way off. It is so funny how easy it is to prove that Bush is all hype! It amazes me what kind of crap you pro-Bush guys can come up with. LOL
Bush is all hype? He's rated # 1 overall by most scouts and anlaysts.

Seems to me Young fans are in denial. To ease the sorrow you have to harp on college stats. How many times have the college players with the best stats been a bust in the NFL?

So really we don't know at this point who will be better in the NFL. What we do know is the Texans signed Carr and have faith in him. Using simple logic, they are not drafting VY. But hey, if bashing Bush and Carr and projecting college stats to the NFL help pass the time unitl Bush puts on the Texans hat, be my guest.

Frank_The_Tank
04-06-2006, 03:26 PM
Projecting college stats is just a non-bias factual proof that Vince is better. 99% of the media were making quotes about how Lindale White would be a better NFL Running Back during the college season. Once Vince declared for the draft, Reggie Bush was all they wanted to talk about. Kinda wierd, HMMM? Now the media slams Vince as much as they possibly can. Look at many of the mock drafts, they all have problems with Vinces Accuracy, hello, have you seen his passing efficiency. They come up with the most off the wall crap; none of it has any factual base its all fiction. They have to dig and grind looking for reasons to Slam Vince. They portray Reggie as this special team superman, he only has 4 TDs total on special teams in three years. Yea he is something special.. O.K.

KSig44
04-06-2006, 03:32 PM
Which is harder to do, stand out on a team of superstars or stand out on a team of average players? VY has the luxury of touching the ball ever play. Unfortunatly, Bush plays runningback and he doesn't have that luxury. That is why this comparison is crap. Special teams aside, just counting passing attempts, rushing attempts and receptions by both players, VY has had his hand in 1176 total plays to Bush's 531. Yeah, that is fair statistical comparison.

TreWardTxn
04-06-2006, 04:19 PM
Thank you for making the exact point for the Draft Young" crowd. If you have the choice between a gamebreaking QB and gamebreaking RB you pick the QB every time because they will touch the ball every play and effect the defense every snap. If the general consensus is that QB is the most important position on the field (assuming you have the means to protect him), then of course the QB is going to impact the game more than a running back. Especially if its unknown whether the running back will be able to touch the ball for more than 25 plays. Young has the better chance of elevating the play of his teammates; miss a block, he buys time in the pocket. 3rd and 5, defenses must respect his ability to run and spy him, leaving backs and short routes wide open...

KSig44
04-06-2006, 04:54 PM
Yes, I don't disagree with that. But the fact is you will have to wait on Young for 2 years to learn the system behind the veteran while Bush is ready to contribute immediatly. And based on the Texans want to win immediatly that is why Bush will go #1. Never mind the cap hit you take on Carr if you trade or cut him. You don't have to trade or cut DD immediatly because more than two RB's can be on the field at the same time. Plus I did en evaluation on ypc for a QB in an earlier post. It's not vast enough of an imporvment from Carr to what a VY can offer to use the first pick on him.

TreWardTxn
04-06-2006, 06:13 PM
Let's not make it a financial decision, let's make it a football decision. And yes, if you want the best chance to win next year, then go with Bush, but if you're talking about the long term success of this team (runnings backs have the shortest careers of any position) you go with the QB.

KSig44
04-06-2006, 06:22 PM
The immidiate return outweighs the longterm success since we are looking at 3 things.

A) the talent difference is an unknown, both are coming in highly touted. In the end, they should both be great players so it is a wash.
B) A QB takes longer to groom in the NFL, Running Backs have lees of a learning curve. Advantage Bush
C) Both are marketable, but Bush gives you a greater national coverage while VY gives more of a regional one. Who will sell more jerseys? Advantage Bush

TreWardTxn
04-06-2006, 06:42 PM
The immidiate return outweighs the longterm success since we are looking at 3 things.

A) the talent difference is an unknown, both are coming in highly touted. In the end, they should both be great players so it is a wash.
B) A QB takes longer to groom in the NFL, Running Backs have lees of a learning curve. Advantage Bush
C) Both are marketable, but Bush gives you a greater national coverage while VY gives more of a regional one. Who will sell more jerseys? Advantage Bush

Since we're assuming both players will be good players then...

A)Quarterbacks last longer in the league than running backs on average
B)No one will realistically say this team is winning a championship next year,that only makes it a one year wait (McNair sat two years)
C)I could care less about their marketability, but I know Young would receive more fan support and make the Texans the most popular team in Texas. The national coverage comes by winning playoff games, and historically, QBs are given more media attention. If the Texans do win, all the credit (and commercials) will go to Carr. (moot point)