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jacquescas
04-03-2006, 02:36 PM
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.

Tha_Tinman
04-03-2006, 02:41 PM
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.

The idea of a mobile QB in Houston is so admirable because of the agony we've endured the past few years. Ya know, breaking all the wrong sack records and all. We'd like to see a guy behind center that has the ability to make some guys miss. Leinart can't do it ...not even Peyton could do it ...and that plagued his team against Pittsburgh this year.

No MATT LEINART ...at least David Carr ran the 40. The guy's got heart!

jgite
04-03-2006, 02:44 PM
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.

You want a reason why he would be good for us or another team.

For us: Fits the Kubiak playcalling (roll outs, play action, bootlegs and throwing on the run in general.) Won't put too much pressure on the OL because he can escape the pocket. Makes better decisions based on his games at UT. Better arm strength than Matt Leinart. Leinart can move but not better than Young or even Carr. Leinart in my opinion is not even an upgrade over Carr. We would be going backwards. Head coaches even downgrade Young because he was too good to be true. (Billick & Fisher).

texan279
04-03-2006, 02:45 PM
The idea of a mobile QB in Houston is so admirable because of the agony we've endured the past few years. Ya know, breaking all the wrong sack records and all. We'd like to see a guy behind center that has the ability to make some guys miss. Leinart can't do it ...not even Peyton could do it ...and that plagued his team against Pittsburgh this year.

No MATT LEINART ...at least David Carr ran the 40. The guy's got heart!

David Carr is a mobile QB...

Frank_The_Tank
04-03-2006, 02:53 PM
Matt Leinhart is no where near the QB Vince young is, look at ESPN, watch the Video on Matt, and even they lean towards Young over Matt.

Frank_The_Tank
04-03-2006, 03:03 PM
Look at the video on the pro-day with Matts reported adequate arm strenght, and good but not great arm strenght. Oh and matt was what 46 of 55 and Young was 50 of 55. Young is faster, stronger, and better in the clutch! That why Texas won the Nat Champ with the ball in Young's hands, and USC lost with the Ball in Matts

Grid
04-03-2006, 03:08 PM
Quarterbacks who won the superbowl over the last 10 years.

1. Big Ben (Pocket QB)
2. Bradyx3 (Pocket QB)
3. Brad Johnson (Pocket QB)
4. Trent Dilfer (Pocket QB)
5. Kurt Warner (Pocket QB)
6. Elway x2 (Pocket QB)
7. Favre (Pocket QB)
8. Aikman (Pocket QB)

Some of those guys are CAPABLE of running when its necessary, but they arent running QBs like Vick and Young. For the most part, the key to a successful QB seems to be the ability to stay in the pocket and make plays happen with your arm, not your legs.

Young is not that kind of QB. Could we TRAIN him to be that kind of QB? possibly.. but Lienart IS that kind of QB. If I had to choose one or the other, id take Lienart. Not only is he in the same mold as all the most successful QBs.. he has been running an NFL offense all through college. He is ready to start right now.

Tha_Tinman
04-03-2006, 03:14 PM
[QUOTE=Grid]Quarterbacks who won the superbowl over the last 10 years.

1. Big Ben (Pocket QB)
2. Bradyx3 (Pocket QB)
3. Brad Johnson (Pocket QB)
4. Trent Dilfer (Pocket QB)
5. Kurt Warner (Pocket QB)
6. Elway x2 (Pocket QB)
7. Favre (Pocket QB)
8. Aikman (Pocket QB)

Some of those guys are CAPABLE of running when its necessary, but they arent running QBs like Vick and Young. For the most part, the key to a successful QB seems to be the ability to stay in the pocket and make plays happen with your arm, not your legs.


Some of those guys CAN STAY IN THE POCKET WHEN ITS NECESSARY!

Big Ben is not a Pocket QB ...If anything he's a Hybrid ...twhe new breed ...proof that it can be done. Just like Vince. Same wii

Grid
04-03-2006, 03:21 PM
Some of those guys CAN STAY IN THE POCKET WHEN ITS NECESSARY!

Big Ben is not a Pocket QB ...If anything he's a Hybrid ...twhe new breed ...proof that it can be done. Just like Vince. Same wii

you really didnt read my post.

They dont just stay in the pocket when it is necessary.. they stay in the pocket to make plays. Young will tuck the ball and try to make plays with his legs instead of waiting for someone to get open.

Carr is closer to Big Ben than Young is.

Vinny
04-03-2006, 03:26 PM
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.Would I rather have Carr - Bush or Leinart - Davis/Morency in by backfield for years to come? I'll take Carr - Bush and launch Carr in another year if he doesn't pick up his play. I don't like Leinart's lack of mobility and his arm so I'd rather have Bush than Leinart if I was choosing between them.

So, having said that, I'd rather have Young - Davis/Morency than Carr - Bush/Davis as the team I want to build my core team around. I don't want to rehash an old tired argument so yeah yeah yeah, been there.

I'd draft Young, move Carr in the next draft and never look back. I like Bush too so I won't be unhappy when we draft him since I have been wanting speed in the backfield for years. I just think we are passing on a future superstar QB and I'd rather build my team from there.

gg no re
04-03-2006, 03:43 PM
All you guys are whack.

Leinhart took ballroom dancing. THAT IS EVASIVE MOBILITY SKILLZ RIGHT THURR.

jacquescas
04-03-2006, 05:47 PM
All you guys are whack.

Leinhart took ballroom dancing. THAT IS EVASIVE MOBILITY SKILLZ RIGHT THURR.

i heard he failed the final. :brickwall

MorKnolle
04-03-2006, 08:09 PM
The idea of a mobile QB in Houston is so admirable because of the agony we've endured the past few years. Ya know, breaking all the wrong sack records and all. We'd like to see a guy behind center that has the ability to make some guys miss. Leinart can't do it ...not even Peyton could do it ...and that plagued his team against Pittsburgh this year.

No MATT LEINART ...at least David Carr ran the 40. The guy's got heart!

I would prefer a QB that has the awareness to move within the pocket and get the ball out of there when in trouble rather than trying to make too many plays with his legs. Peyton Manning isn't very mobile but yet he consistently averages less than one sack per game because he has a good OLine, a good offensive system, and he's great at reading defenses (unless he's playing the Steelers or Patriots, but that's what an effective 3-4 defense will do even to the best of QBs) and he knows when to throw the ball away, etc.

David Carr is a mobile QB...

People seem to keep forgetting this, he is one of the more mobile QBs in the league and is capable of making some plays with his legs and escaping the pocket, not as well as Vince, but plenty well enough for Denver's offense.

Quarterbacks who won the superbowl over the last 10 years.

1. Big Ben (Pocket QB)
2. Bradyx3 (Pocket QB)
3. Brad Johnson (Pocket QB)
4. Trent Dilfer (Pocket QB)
5. Kurt Warner (Pocket QB)
6. Elway x2 (Pocket QB)
7. Favre (Pocket QB)
8. Aikman (Pocket QB)

Some of those guys are CAPABLE of running when its necessary, but they arent running QBs like Vick and Young. For the most part, the key to a successful QB seems to be the ability to stay in the pocket and make plays happen with your arm, not your legs.

Young is not that kind of QB. Could we TRAIN him to be that kind of QB? possibly.. but Lienart IS that kind of QB. If I had to choose one or the other, id take Lienart. Not only is he in the same mold as all the most successful QBs.. he has been running an NFL offense all through college. He is ready to start right now.

Excellent work on this post. Elway was definitely a scrambler in his prime but by the time he won his two Super Bowls he was predominantly a pocket passer. You are right on about successful QBs being the ones that have the ability to stay in the pocket (move around in the pocket if they have to) and wait for plays to develop. Certainly the ability to make plays with your legs if you absolutely have to is a bonus, but Vince Young still gives up on plays and looks to run too early (from all the games I saw this year and the tapes I borrowed and re-watched) similar to Michael Vick. Both of them need to work on that and stay in the pocket longer if they want to preserve their careers longer and probably to have greater success.

Huge1
04-03-2006, 09:38 PM
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.

Leinert's pro day was average at best. He is NOT every single "expert" and "talent evaluator's" top prospect. Three different scouts that were just commenting on the NFL Network stated that his arm was WEAK on the 18-20 yard routes! 18-20 yards? Wow! He threw too many balls at receiver's feet and only a few were tight spirals. He is the 3rd rated QB on Mayock's board (behind Cutler and Young) and is being compared to Chris Simms, who was drafted in the 3rd round. The consensus now is that if the Titans pass on him (which looks very likely) that he may fall out of the top 10. Also, people need to stop comparing him to Carson Palmer. He has nowhere near that type of arm strength.

Just flip it over to the NFL Network, Total Access....they are talking about it right now.

TreWardTxn
04-03-2006, 09:38 PM
Why would we want a QB who is slower, weaker-armed, and thinks he is even prettier than our current QB? I once heard Michael Irvin say that he questioned Roy Williams' (Det. WR) heart about not coming out after his Junior year. I didn't necessarily agree because Roy hadn't won a NC and it was possible that he wanted that opportunity. But this guy had all the personal accolades and the hardware to go along with and he still came back to USC to ballroom dance and live like a playboy in LA. Not a redflag, but a headscratcher if you believe competitive spirit is one of the most important components to the pro game...

And I want to say this, alot of cats on this board are flip-flopping now. A month ago they swore they would slap their mama before they drafted VY over Leinart. I'm sure a few hearts have changed today. You (and the FO) might want to reconsider Young as that #1 pick or get used to having to rethink what they thought was right a year or two from now...

tulexan
04-03-2006, 09:43 PM
Why would we want a QB who is slower, weaker-armed, and thinks he is even prettier than our current QB? I once heard Michael Irvin say that he questioned Roy Williams' (Det. WR) heart about not coming out after his Junior year. I didn't necessarily agree because Roy hadn't won a NC and it was possible that he wanted that opportunity. But this guy had all the personal accolades and the hardware to go along with and he still came back to USC to ballroom dance and live like a playboy in LA. Not a redflag, but a headscratcher if you believe competitive spirit is one of the most important components to the pro game...


Leinart came back to USC because he had shoulder surgery in the offseason.

Huge1
04-03-2006, 09:46 PM
Leinert=Ryan Leaf

Lol...just kidding.

Napa Auto Parts
04-03-2006, 09:55 PM
i like matt lion heart i would love to have in out team i think he can be special and i think he is the most NFL ready Qb coming out with that said i really like young i think his upside is greater than any player coming out this year. so my choice would be V.Young but not with the 1st overall i would look to trade down with the titans or the jets to aquire any of this QB's.

TreWardTxn
04-03-2006, 10:00 PM
Leinart came back to USC because he had shoulder surgery in the offseason.

His shoulder surgery was minor, he still would have been the #1 QB picked in the draft. With all the bashing the new San Fran owner gets, he probably didn't want to play for him. I think he wanted to repeat, and with all his weapons coming back, he knew he had a great chance and just fell short.

texman8
04-04-2006, 12:04 AM
With Leinert's average workout on his pro day...I would rate
1. Young
2. Leinert
3. Cutler

Projected 2006 mock:

1. Reggie Bush - Texans
2. Mario Williams - Packers ( trade with Saints)
3. D' Brickashaw Ferguson - Titans
4. A. J. Hawk - Jets
5. Michael Huff - Saints
6. Vernon Davis - 49ers
7. Vince Young - Raiders
8. Haloti Ngata - Bills
9. Winston Justice - Lions
10. Matt Leinert - Cardinals

kiwitexansfan
04-04-2006, 12:16 AM
Leinert=Ryan Leaf

Lol...just kidding.


Why not??

Reggie Bush could be the next Ki-Jana Carter....

jacquescas
04-04-2006, 12:50 AM
all these people saying Leinart will drop out of the top 10 or be drafted number 10. I can assure you he will be one of the first 5 players taken in this draft.

Huge1
04-04-2006, 01:37 AM
all these people saying Leinart will drop out of the top 10 or be drafted number 10. I can assure you he will be one of the first 5 players taken in this draft.

Even though his pro day was across the board sub par, I believe you might be right. Mike Greenberg of ESPN has a man crush on this guy and would piss his pants if his beloved Jets took him at #4. Even though he is now being compared to Chris Simms by scouts who witnessed his workout, that is not a bad thing. Chris had a decent year and if Chuckie has enough faith in him to give him the reigns, then the kid must be good. But, after watching every one of Leinert's games here in Pac-10 country, I have agreed with what the scouts are saying right now for a long time.

tsip
04-04-2006, 06:05 AM
you really didnt read my post.

They dont just stay in the pocket when it is necessary.. they stay in the pocket to make plays. Young will tuck the ball and try to make plays with his legs instead of waiting for someone to get open.

Carr is closer to Big Ben than Young is.

Carr is a poor pocket 'mgr' .

thunderkyss
04-04-2006, 06:53 AM
IMHO, Lienart is the top QB in a week QB draft....... much like Carr. Only Carr's got a stronger arm, and is more mobile, so you are loosing quite a bit to go with Matt. If he was rated as high as Carson Palmer, I'd be surprised.


People seem to keep forgetting this, he is one of the more mobile QBs in the league and is capable of making some plays with his legs and escaping the pocket, not as well as Vince, but plenty well enough for Denver's offense.

When David Carr leaves the pocket, he needs to be thinking one of two things. First down, & Sideline...... If he can pick up the first, go get it. If he can make it to the sideline, go for it......... but get rid of the ball, or cross ahead of the L.O.S.
David isn't nearly as accurate as Jake Plummer, and his head isn't in the game as much as Vince's in while he is on the move....... watch the highlights, Vince is rarely looking at the guy in front of him, he's usually looking for his recievers as he moves, and using his periphial(sp) vision to identify and locate defenders close to him.....

Excellent work on this post. Elway was definitely a scrambler in his prime but by the time he won his two Super Bowls he was predominantly a pocket passer. You are right on about successful QBs being the ones that have the ability to stay in the pocket (move around in the pocket if they have to) and wait for plays to develop. Certainly the ability to make plays with your legs if you absolutely have to is a bonus, but Vince Young still gives up on plays and looks to run too early (from all the games I saw this year and the tapes I borrowed and re-watched) similar to Michael Vick. Both of them need to work on that and stay in the pocket longer if they want to preserve their careers longer and probably to have greater success.

I, and most people I know, sees Vince developing as we speak into a McNabb, Culpepper way........ pretty similar to Elway... Both are more mobile/athletic than Elway, and are well on thier way to becoming true pocket passers. Like McNair.... I for one, feel Vince is much closer to this than David Carr. Vince may give up on a play too early, and leave the pocket, but he's still looking for the play downfield, till he crosses the L.O.S.
Carr on the other hand, is either hitting the turf, running into a Defensive End, or trying to do the same thing Vince does so easily........ of course, it may/may not be so easy for Vince in the NFL...

But I tell you this. If there is any team in the NFL that is perfect for Vince Young right now, it's Denver. If I were Shanahan, I'd be itching to deal those two #1s for Vince....... heck, I'll give Houston Both #1s, and Ron Dayne. I can't see why Kubiak would look at it any differently.

all these people saying Leinart will drop out of the top 10 or be drafted number 10. I can assure you he will be one of the first 5 players taken in this draft.

I'll bring this back for you after the draft......... But right now, unless someone is willing to trade up for him......... their might not be a QB taken in the top 5. That depends alot on what Tennessee will do.

dalemurphy
04-04-2006, 07:31 AM
IMHO, Lienart is the top QB in a week QB draft....... much like Carr. Only Carr's got a stronger arm, and is more mobile, so you are loosing quite a bit to go with Matt. If he was rated as high as Carson Palmer, I'd be surprised.


When David Carr leaves the pocket, he needs to be thinking one of two things. First down, & Sideline...... If he can pick up the first, go get it. If he can make it to the sideline, go for it......... but get rid of the ball, or cross ahead of the L.O.S.
David isn't nearly as accurate as Jake Plummer, and his head isn't in the game as much as Vince's in while he is on the move....... watch the highlights, Vince is rarely looking at the guy in front of him, he's usually looking for his recievers as he moves, and using his periphial(sp) vision to identify and locate defenders close to him.....


I, and most people I know, sees Vince developing as we speak into a McNabb, Culpepper way........ pretty similar to Elway... Both are more mobile/athletic than Elway, and are well on thier way to becoming true pocket passers. Like McNair.... I for one, feel Vince is much closer to this than David Carr. Vince may give up on a play too early, and leave the pocket, but he's still looking for the play downfield, till he crosses the L.O.S.
Carr on the other hand, is either hitting the turf, running into a Defensive End, or trying to do the same thing Vince does so easily........ of course, it may/may not be so easy for Vince in the NFL...

But I tell you this. If there is any team in the NFL that is perfect for Vince Young right now, it's Denver. If I were Shanahan, I'd be itching to deal those two #1s for Vince....... heck, I'll give Houston Both #1s, and Ron Dayne. I can't see why Kubiak would look at it any differently.



I'll bring this back for you after the draft......... But right now, unless someone is willing to trade up for him......... their might not be a QB taken in the top 5. That depends alot on what Tennessee will do.


Let's get this straight. You are going to compare Carr's quarterbacking ability as an NFL Qb on a very bad offense directly with Young's quarterbacking ability on the most talented college football team in the nation?

How about comparing what Carr looked like his last year in college when he threw 42 TDs and only 7 interceptions playing for Fresno St., who played a number of teams with much more talent than they had. Compare Carr's production, poise, and accuracy in college with Young's production, poise, and accuracy in college.

TreWardTxn
04-06-2006, 02:47 PM
Anyone who was just watching ESPN heard Morten Anderson say that, "as scouts get back to watching more film before the draft," many are starting to say they believe "Young may be the number one quarterback in this year's draft." According to him, Leinart is not a lock to be the first QB picked and Tennesse could be go either way on the matter. I think the only team that really cares in the top 5 is the Jets, who I believe would prefer Leinart, because their current QB is made of paper machie.

He said both guys would have been rated above Smith and Rodgers from last year (no surprise there). This doesn't change anything for me, but I hope this will prevent people from using the, 'everyone outside of Texas thinks Young is not that good' argument...

kastofsna
04-07-2006, 12:33 PM
young isn't in leinart's class.

Mike Kerns
04-07-2006, 12:35 PM
Projected 2006 mock:

1. Reggie Bush - Texans
2. Mario Williams - Packers ( trade with Saints)
3. D' Brickashaw Ferguson - Titans
4. A. J. Hawk - Jets
5. Michael Huff - Saints
6. Vernon Davis - 49ers
7. Vince Young - Raiders
8. Haloti Ngata - Bills
9. Winston Justice - Lions
10. Matt Leinert - Cardinals


There is absolutely no way Leinart stays on the board until 10th.

stevo3883
04-07-2006, 12:47 PM
young isn't in leinart's class.

yeah, hes 1 above.

41-38

kastofsna
04-07-2006, 12:51 PM
yeah, hes 1 above.

41-38
zing!

KSig44
04-07-2006, 12:55 PM
If, and that is a big if, Leinart makes it to Oakland, do you really think Al Davis will pass on the homestate boy?

kastofsna
04-07-2006, 12:58 PM
from what i hear, davis likes cutler most of all, so if it's between leinart and cutler, he'll take cutler. i think both will be gone at that point though.