PDA

View Full Version : Kubiak's Ultimate Challenge


Tha_Tinman
04-03-2006, 03:22 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that drafting Vince Young would be Coach Kubiak's ultimate challenge!

Why? Think about it ...underneath it all he's a QUARTERBACK's COACH ...he's played the position (Broncos), he's played with one of the best (Elway), and as a coach he's largely responsible for turning a guy's career around (Plummer). Been there ...done that! Right?

Next challenge? Turn ANOTHER guy's career around? I think not! I think the risk is too high ...If he tries and fails with Carr ...then, in my opinion he begins to lose some of that credit that he got with Plummer. Ya know, maybe Plummer just sucked it up on his own ...that kinda talk. I say he cut from that mold and do what the critics say is gonna take year's of expert coaching to do ..........

MAKE VINCE YOUNG THE SUPERSTAR THAT EVERYONE SWEARS HE HAS THE ABILITY TO BE!

And do it with some efficiency ...i.e. within 2 years ...i.e. redshirt him his rookie season ...and start him in '07

Davis and Morency can handle the RB load ...we need a charismatic leader that players and fans are gonna follow! I think Vince is our man and Kubiak's Greatest Challenge!

KSig44
04-03-2006, 03:27 PM
And what if Young craps out and Carr goes somewhere else and becomes a pro bowler. I feel that the risk kubes has in Carr is less than Young. With Carr the investment is low, if he busts, he busts. he was heading that way anyways. With Young it's his project. If he busts it's all on Kubes. Bush is still the better pick for the overall team no matter how many ways you VY fans slice it.

jacquescas
04-03-2006, 03:30 PM
Kubiack isn't looking for a challenege. getting a 2-14 team respectable again is challenge enough.

I think he needs to use a pick that he can "set and forget'"

texasguy346
04-03-2006, 03:32 PM
Kubiak's Ultimate Challenge is bringing the Texans back to respectability this next season, and quite possibly making a push for the playoffs within the next few seasons. That will bring him a ton more respect around the league than bringing in VY, an already phenomenally talented QB, and making him successful in the NFL.

Making VY a successful QB isn't much of a challenge at all. There are many coaches and OC around the league that would be capable of achieving that feat, but not many would be capable of turning around a beleagured franchise like the Texans. I have faith that Kubiak knows what's best for this organization, and what will get them back on track.

Tha_Tinman
04-03-2006, 03:33 PM
And what if Young craps out and Carr goes somewhere else and becomes a pro bowler. I feel that the risk kubes has in Carr is less than Young. With Carr the investment is low, if he busts, he busts. he was heading that way anyways. With Young it's his project. If he busts it's all on Kubes. Bush is still the better pick for the overall team no matter how many ways you VY fans slice it.

That's Why It's Called a CHALLENGE! The word connotates that there is some risk involved. If Carr goes somewhere else and become's a pro bowler then we congratulate him and his family. They were all good for Houston the past few years.

Besides, I think we should keep Carr for next season and bring Vince up slowly ...so hey ...maybe good ole Kubes can do BOTH!

KSig44
04-03-2006, 03:35 PM
Young won't start first year no matter where he goes, he couldn't gasp the UT playbook in a year (or two years), how in the hell will he grasp an NFL playbook in a training camp? You forget he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, how many brain farts was he good for during UT's season 2 years ago? The picks, the turnovers. He will need time. This is another reason he won't fit here, McNair want's to win now. Not in 3 years when VY will be ready.:brickwall

Tha_Tinman
04-03-2006, 03:36 PM
Kubiak's Ultimate Challenge is bringing the Texans back to respectability this next season, and quite possibly making a push for the playoffs within the next few seasons. That will bring him a ton more respect around the league than bringing in VY, an already phenomenally talented QB, and making him successful in the NFL.

Making VY a successful QB isn't much of a challenge at all. There are many coaches and OC around the league that would be capable of achieving that feat, but not many would be capable of turning around a beleagured franchise like the Texans. I have faith that Kubiak knows what's best for this organization, and what will get them back on track.

As do I! Call it selfish ...but for some reason, as a fan of the game, I'd prefer he did it with Vince.

Hey, its still not too late to make a trade for that #2 pick ....#1 pick AND #2 pick ...you thinking what I'm thinking? LOL!

jgite
04-03-2006, 03:37 PM
Young won't start first year no matter where he goes, he couldn't gasp the UT playbook in a year (or two years), how in the hell will he grasp an NFL playbook in a training camp? You forget he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, how many brain farts was he good for during UT's season 2 years ago? The picks, the turnovers. He will need time. This is another reason he won't fit here, McNair want's to win now. Not in 3 years when VY will be ready.:brickwall

Actually Vince got the playbook in a redshirt year. He never had issues with the playbook. The playcalling and the schemes didn't fit his playing style

KSig44
04-03-2006, 03:39 PM
And yet he has played about 2 1/2 years and only looked comfortable for 1. His big knock was reading and understanding playbooks, it doesn't go away because he finally learned the UT offense in 3 years.:challenge

Tha_Tinman
04-03-2006, 03:45 PM
And yet he has played about 2 1/2 years and only looked comfortable for 1. His big knock was reading and understanding playbooks, it doesn't go away because he finally learned the UT offense in 3 years.:challenge

Find me a QB that read the playbook and "GOT IT" the first time around ...or even after a year. Did that QB EVER lead the nation in QB efficiency? Back to Back Rosebowl Victories? Game MVP in one or both of those games? How bout a National Championship?

If Vince needs time ...WE WAIT !!!!!

KSig44
04-03-2006, 03:56 PM
Not hard to lead in QB rating when you play dump off for most of your pass plays. And no, QB's take a while learning playbooks, but not 2-3 years to grasp the basics. Mack Brown even said they scrapped the playbook and went with a "simplified" one that led to VY strengths. Basically saying he wasn't getting the plays and they went with one that was 4-5 basic plays with his scrambling. Here is his playlist

Handoff (left or right)
dumpoff to RB (left or right)
pass to TE
playaction pass to TE
pass to WR (against the KU and Baylors of the world)
and the bread and butter
RUN!!!

Tha_Tinman
04-03-2006, 04:11 PM
Not hard to lead in QB rating when you play dump off for most of your pass plays. And no, QB's take a while learning playbooks, but not 2-3 years to grasp the basics. Mack Brown even said they scrapped the playbook and went with a "simplified" one that led to VY strengths. Basically saying he wasn't getting the plays and they went with one that was 4-5 basic plays with his scrambling. Here is his playlist

Handoff (left or right)
dumpoff to RB (left or right)
pass to TE
playaction pass to TE
pass to WR (against the KU and Baylors of the world)
and the bread and butter
RUN!!!

Big Deal!
If you havta run one play over and over ...if you can do it good enough to win a championship ...Lets get it done!

KSig44
04-03-2006, 04:14 PM
I don't disagree Tha, but that won't work in the NFL. Ask Ty Detmer. Ask David Klingler or Andre Ware. They did well in college and where are they now?

tulexan
04-03-2006, 04:38 PM
Vince was actually 3rd in QB efficiency.

Rudy Carpenter from Arizona State and Brian Brohm from Louisville were ahead of him.

Tha_Tinman
04-03-2006, 04:51 PM
Vince was actually 3rd in QB efficiency.

Rudy Carpenter from Arizona State and Brian Brohm from Louisville were ahead of him.


That is the biggest crock of cow dung I've ever heard. Everybody knows that Vince Young was the Efficiency leader!!!!!!

Wasn't he? :confused:

chuckm
04-03-2006, 04:54 PM
That is the biggest crock of cow dung I've ever heard. Everybody knows that Vince Young was the Efficiency leader!!!!!!

Wasn't he? :confused:


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/ncaa/stats/2005/divia/individual/passing_efficiency_byQB_RATING.html


crock of cow dung?

jgite
04-03-2006, 05:28 PM
They installed the zone read formation halfway through the 2004 season, so its was more like he mastered it in 1 1/2 seasons. How many QB's you know can basically learn a new offense in the middle of the season and almost get maximum results. BTW they never had the zone read at Madison, they ran mostly under the center.

P.S. Vince lead the nation in efficiency unti the Rose Bowl, his 30-40 267 yard performance caused him to drop to third

MasterC25
04-03-2006, 05:53 PM
Actually Vince got the playbook in a redshirt year. He never had issues with the playbook. The playcalling and the schemes didn't fit his playing style

Well in the NFL they don't design the playbook to fit for only on player only. If he could adjust to Mack Brown scheme how the hell will he adjust to Kubes scheme. Does that make sense. Not even the colts designed there playbook to only fit Manning, much less some other team do that for Vince Young.

MasterC25
04-03-2006, 05:56 PM
Find me a QB that read the playbook and "GOT IT" the first time around ...or even after a year. Did that QB EVER lead the nation in QB efficiency? Back to Back Rosebowl Victories? Game MVP in one or both of those games? How bout a National Championship?

If Vince needs time ...WE WAIT !!!!!

Have you heard of Matt Leinart he did "pretty" well in his first year.

jgite
04-03-2006, 06:04 PM
Well in the NFL they don't design the playbook to fit for only on player only. If he could adjust to Mack Brown scheme how the hell will he adjust to Kubes scheme. Does that make sense. Not even the colts designed there playbook to only fit Manning, much less some other team do that for Vince Young.

Well for the Kubiak scheme he is tailor-made for it. It has a lot of roll outs, naked bootlegs, and play action. More or less a lot of throws on the run, and frankly that is what Vince is an expert of off. Kubiak said it himself thats what he wants to do is to move the pocket. Every team can retrofit their schemes to match the personnel. Are you trying to say that the Colts offense doesn't take advantage of Mannings strengths?
The NFL has a bad habit of not changing with the times anyway in my opinion. It was a thread on here quoting Brian Billick about the NFL downgraded VY because they don't know exactly what to do. The Falcons are already stating that they are going to be looking at Texas film to try to borrow some formations and plays for Vick. Put him in the Kubiak offense and see what he could do.

MasterC25
04-03-2006, 06:14 PM
Well for the Kubiak scheme he is tailor-made for it. It has a lot of roll outs, naked bootlegs, and play action. More or less a lot of throws on the run, and frankly that is what Vince is an expert of off. Kubiak said it himself thats what he wants to do is to move the pocket. Every team can retrofit their schemes to match the personnel. Are you trying to say that the Colts offense doesn't take advantage of Mannings strengths?
The NFL has a bad habit of not changing with the times anyway in my opinion. It was a thread on here quoting Brian Billick about the NFL downgraded VY because they don't know exactly what to do. The Falcons are already stating that they are going to be looking at Texas film to try to borrow some formations and plays for Vick. Put him in the Kubiak offense and see what he could do.

With rollouts naked boots and play action those three things all need the ability to not only move but be accurate at it Vince can not throw accurate stand still much less moving. Lets be real for a second. The colts do take advantage of Mannings strengths but not to the point it affects Harrison,Wayne or James. In UT they pretty much said hey Vince is our running back and our do to guy will be the TE. The NFL is not that basic. The Falcon's realize that this season is there last resort with Vick so they are desperate why else would you go to Mack Brown for offensive tips.

TreWardTxn
04-03-2006, 09:19 PM
This is the one thing that people tend to gloss over; the fact that Vince Young won a National Championship in any Mack Brown/Greg Davis system is amazing in and of itself. Mack has been notorious for underdeveloping his players while they are at Texas, he is a motivator/recruiter/"great guy", not an X n O'er. Simms played horribly in big games at Texas due to the stagnant gameplans and his own personal tendency to choke (IMO), but Gruden has made him look like a decent QB. He always had the arm and the head (NFL QB son), but could simply never get the job done. Why? Survey says...poor coaching.

The fact of the matter is that Young has not even begun to have his full potential tapped into, nowhere close, while players like Leinart have already had top-notch coaching. I have already heard people say that Brady Quinn is going to rip up the NCAA next year, and he might do that. But does anyone here think it'll be because he was just meant to be good? Nope, it's because he's got a 3X Superbowl winning coach drawin' em up for him and he has the skills to execute. If a guy has the physical ability, coaching counts for a helluva lot.

TexansLucky13
04-03-2006, 09:30 PM
You seem to overlook the fact that Kubiak picked up a lot of experience with Runningbacks with the Broncos as well. Much of that came from Terrell Davis. Kubiak is known for his proficiency with QBs, but that is not his limit. He is very much into the run... don't expect Carr to be even close to throwing the ball on every play. Reggie Bush fits his rushing playbook to perfection, quick routes and a slant blocking scheme which he will concentrate on next season with the O-line. Besides... With Elway... Kubes wouldnt have even dreamed of having to deal with the aspect of "running QB" alongside his pocket passing style. I think it is in the better interest of Vince Young to go to a team like the Raiders.... who would love to have that aspect in a QB.

So if you are a "true" Vince Young fan... At least realize that he may very well lose a portion of his talents when playing under Coachiak.

Go Texans!

TreWardTxn
04-03-2006, 10:03 PM
I think you have some things confused; Elway was well known for his scrambling and ability and play outside the pocket. Plummer is a much better QB on the move than from within the pocket. The Broncos drafted Bradlee Van Pelt b/c of his mobility/athleticism. Kubes offense focuses on bootlegs, playaction, and pocket movement for the QB, the kind of system Young will thrive in. The Raiders? Al Davis brought in Kerry Collins to throw deep to Moss. Although he throws a good deep ball, Young would not materialize in a rigid system like that with a head coach who hasn't designed an offense in 10 years. Additionally Davis hires/fires coaches every two years, no young QB will develop in that environment.

Nevermind that, the primary point was that a Kubiak system and a coach who has worked with both "pocket" and "mobile" QBs would be one of the best fits for Young...

The fact Kubiak likes to run first and throw off that is the reason why Young could be successful. Limiting the throws a QB has to make is the best way to make them look better. If Young is in 3 and 5 he will be deadly, coordinators will be too afraid not to spy or rush and Young can easily spot the open man and get them the ball, or make a man miss and get the first himself. Simply put he is a playmaker, who will impact the game every snap he is on the field.

Nighthawk
04-03-2006, 11:31 PM
Mack Brown even said they scrapped the playbook and went with a "simplified" one that led to VY strengths. Basically saying he wasn't getting the plays and they went with one that was 4-5 basic plays with his scrambling. Here is his playlist

Handoff (left or right)
dumpoff to RB (left or right)
pass to TE
playaction pass to TE
pass to WR (against the KU and Baylors of the world)
and the bread and butter
RUN!!!

Dear Bozo--
Not that it makes any difference, but I suggest you get a friend of a friend to give you a look at the UT playbook. That by itself ought to shut you up tight.

VY, who we aren't going to take in this draft, is an accomplished QB who will probably be a superstar at the next level. I can guarantee you he won't spend 4 NFL years as Carr has, being the limpest wrist in the west.

KSig44
04-04-2006, 07:56 AM
Uhh, you lost credability when you called me Bozo.

And I have watched UT football, for the last 5 years thank you. I have followed the team, heard all the stories of VY inabilities to grasp the Brown/Davis offense so they had to "simplify" it. I gaurentee you, you watch a game and the plays above are 90%+ what is run for VY.

You call VY accomplished, I call him a one year wonder. There were so many nocks against him coming into this year, but win a NC and it's all gone? Not when you are under the microscope for the first pick in the NFL draft. VY beats teams with his legs, that won't happen in the NFL. There is not one college game against a average to good team where he sat in the pocket and just passed his way to the win. You say it's not his game, well in the NFL it is the game. If you think he will run like he did in college, you are delusional. Every LB runs around a 4.6 or faster, the secondary runs a 4.4. That is up to 7 players on an opposing defense that will catch him. How does the run work fir Vick?

And yes, he won't spend his first years like Carr. No one should go through that punishment. 200+ sacks in 4 years is a unimaginable stat, and one that tells me he never had a fair chance. And you think VY could have done better under those circumstances, well, he has never had to behind the OL of UT. It's one of the best in the nation every year.:brickwall

TEXANRED
04-04-2006, 08:06 AM
Do the Vince Young supporters know that he is not the Best player in the draft? Or the second, third, or the fourth?

Bush
Lienart
Williams
D-Brick
Young


When is the draft?

Maddict5
04-04-2006, 08:16 AM
As do I! Call it selfish ...but for some reason, as a fan of the game, I'd prefer he did it with Vince.


yeah dont lie- just type what is obvious to every1 ie- as a fan of VY, id prefer he did it with vince.....

well heres my hope- as a fan of the texans id prefer him to do it with the players that will help turn this franchise around quickly

Tha_Tinman
04-06-2006, 01:12 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/ncaa/stats/2005/divia/individual/passing_efficiency_byQB_RATING.html


crock of cow dung?


What? Doesn't cow dung still comes in crocks? I thought for sure VY led the nation in something!

jgite
04-06-2006, 01:50 AM
With rollouts naked boots and play action those three things all need the ability to not only move but be accurate at it Vince can not throw accurate stand still much less moving. Lets be real for a second. The colts do take advantage of Mannings strengths but not to the point it affects Harrison,Wayne or James. In UT they pretty much said hey Vince is our running back and our do to guy will be the TE. The NFL is not that basic. The Falcon's realize that this season is there last resort with Vick so they are desperate why else would you go to Mack Brown for offensive tips.

Vince is very much accurate on the run and standing still, check out the wheel route play vs. Oklahoma where he went right, stop and threw across the field to billy pittman and hit him in stride for a touchdown. Check out ohio state when he hit sweed in a tight spot for the go ahead touchdown.
If you need even more evidence look at the all-star challenge when he damn near hit every bulleyes and the only quarterback to hit the 40 yard net on scramble and throw contest. He won the entire competition BTW.
Manning's job is to get the ball to his playmakers, so his receivers will never be at a disadvantage. Same thing with Young except you got a guy who has an extra weapon (his legs) to help you out on 3rd or 4th down. I've been a fan of this team since McNair dropped his first payment, and I am always frustrated by the lack of 3rd conversions in all 4 seasons.
You are correct that the NFL is not that basic, but who said it was gonna be that hard anyway. VY ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to make decisions. Remember that was and still is one of David Carr's weakness along with getting rid of the football.
And if UT is so simple why would the Falcons risk their $100 Million quarterback with some plays that won't work. I don't think that's desperation that's them realizing they had been screwing up.:twocents: