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View Full Version : Its funny (Young's Wonderlic score & 40 time excuses)


jacquescas
03-27-2006, 12:14 PM
I found it hilarious that the same people who say that VY's wunderlich test and 40 times mean nothing. Yet if he had posted amazing numbers that would be all we hear.

I'm also tired of him calling the scores disrespectful, if it is disrespectful its only to him. I hate people hiding behind terms of racisms and respect to cover their own shortcomings.

VY needs to grow up and be a man and accept that he had a poor combine and workout. He still has the potential to be an Awesome QB, but he needs to grow up, there was nothing disrespectful about the wunderlich test. the next thing is there will be a racial bias.

Wharton
03-27-2006, 01:05 PM
I'm too tired to argue about this anymore. Lets go to the next topic already.

:redtowel:

thunderkyss
03-27-2006, 01:14 PM
Not to argue...... but did he have a poor combine?? I'm hearing mixed reports. The speed thing, I never thought anybody said he was fast though. Fast for his size, and an elusive runner.

AJExplosion80
03-27-2006, 01:17 PM
Yeah he had a slow 40 time I mean at least Vick ran like a 4.2 Who knows it will be something we will have to wait and see:brickwall

Mike Kerns
03-27-2006, 02:01 PM
I had a thought. A lot of people are saying that Vince is ALREADY a better prospect than Michael Vick. Yet Vick was faster & has a more powerful arm. So, I was wondering, If Vick had single-handedly defeated Florida State in the Sugar Bowl the last year at V-Tech, like Vince did to USC, would he of been rated higher than he was ? I know he was a #1 overall, I just don't see how Vince is really a "Better Prospect." I know you can tell that I am a Draft Reggie camper & that isn't what this is about. I am just curious, because I think that Vick was a much more attractive prospect, aside from not actually winning the NCAA Championship. Thanks for listening to me ramble on. Just my opinion. :twocents:

Please_Evolve
03-27-2006, 02:48 PM
I had a thought. A lot of people are saying that Vince is ALREADY a better prospect than Michael Vick. Yet Vick was faster & has a more powerful arm. So, I was wondering, If Vick had single-handedly defeated Florida State in the Sugar Bowl the last year at V-Tech, like Vince did to USC, would he of been rated higher than he was ? I know he was a #1 overall, I just don't see how Vince is really a "Better Prospect." I know you can tell that I am a Draft Reggie camper & that isn't what this is about. I am just curious, because I think that Vick was a much more attractive prospect, aside from not actually winning the NCAA Championship. Thanks for listening to me ramble on. Just my opinion. :twocents:


I dunno I don't think Vick has done really anything since the GB playoff win. Nolan still might make him closer into a pocket QB but he'd likely turn out ala Cunningham. Which isn't bad i liked Randall a lot...he's oneo fthe reasons i became an Eagles fan. That and J Jones is an ***.

That aside i had hooped as a UT fan Vince would opt to stay another year but i understood the decision to strike while the iron is hot. I really thought another year would've helped him develop more. Vince in taller in stature and while he doesn't have the pure speed Vick has he has the same elusiveness. His throwing mmotion will need some work a higher realse point would make scouts more a comfortable. I think Vince will succeed but it'll take a coach who knows what he's got and how to work with him. See Donovan McNabb( who i more think Vince should be compared to instead of Vick) :twocents:

swtbound07
03-27-2006, 02:56 PM
I dunno I don't think Vick has done really anything since the GB playoff win. Nolan still might make him closer into a pocket QB but he'd likely turn out ala Cunningham. Which isn't bad i liked Randall a lot...he's oneo fthe reasons i became an Eagles fan. That and J Jones is an ***.

That aside i had hooped as a UT fan Vince would opt to stay another year but i understood the decision to strike while the iron is hot. I really thought another year would've helped him develop more. Vince in taller in stature and while he doesn't have the pure speed Vick has he has the same elusiveness. His throwing mmotion will need some work a higher realse point would make scouts more a comfortable. I think Vince will succeed but it'll take a coach who knows what he's got and how to work with him. See Donovan McNabb( who i more think Vince should be compared to instead of Vick) :twocents:

Do you do research? Do you even hear yourself? Do you not remember the Vick-led falcons in the NFC championship game? I seem to recall them destroying the rams with a playoff record rushing total.hasnt done anything huh?

Point 2. His throwing motion. Phillip Rivers had the most bootleg throwing motion i have ever seen and he still got drafted #4 overall

thunderkyss
03-27-2006, 02:58 PM
I had a thought. A lot of people are saying that Vince is ALREADY a better prospect than Michael Vick. Yet Vick was faster & has a more powerful arm. So, I was wondering, If Vick had single-handedly defeated Florida State in the Sugar Bowl the last year at V-Tech, like Vince did to USC, would he of been rated higher than he was ? I know he was a #1 overall, I just don't see how Vince is really a "Better Prospect." I know you can tell that I am a Draft Reggie camper & that isn't what this is about. I am just curious, because I think that Vick was a much more attractive prospect, aside from not actually winning the NCAA Championship. Thanks for listening to me ramble on. Just my opinion. :twocents:


Vince's running stats in college puts him in Vicks class as a mobile QB. His passing stats put him in a class way above Vicks, then & now.

SnakeOilTanker
03-27-2006, 03:46 PM
wunderlich .

wonderlic......good job jacquescas

kastofsna
03-27-2006, 09:28 PM
young had a poor pro day. i don't really care about the wonderlic, but the fact that he was unprepared for his pro day, after MONTHS of time to prepare, says a lot

D-ReK
03-27-2006, 09:32 PM
young had a poor pro day. i don't really care about the wonderlic, but the fact that he was unprepared for his pro day, after MONTHS of time to prepare, says a lot

Where did you hear that he had a bad pro day? Everything I have read said the he was in the above average to exceptional range...

MorKnolle
03-27-2006, 10:32 PM
Not to argue...... but did he have a poor combine?? I'm hearing mixed reports. The speed thing, I never thought anybody said he was fast though. Fast for his size, and an elusive runner.

Don't want to nitpick but Vince didn't do anything at the Combine other than botch up his Wonderlich test.

Where did you hear that he had a bad pro day? Everything I have read said the he was in the above average to exceptional range...

There have been mixed reports on how his pro day and private workouts went but I guess none of us will really know on those and will tend to view his workouts as a success/failure depending on our opinion of him. I'm sure there are the same discrepancies on Vince's talent among NFL personnel, but all it takes is one team to like him and want to draft him.

F-minus67
03-27-2006, 11:54 PM
While he didn't has a good pro day, he is probably saving it for when he works out for teams.

Also, Hulk no offense, but the first part of your post has to have some of the worst grammer I have ever read.

F-minus67
03-27-2006, 11:55 PM
While he didn't has a good pro day, he is probably saving it for when he works out for teams.

Peldon
03-27-2006, 11:58 PM
While he didn't has a good pro day, he is probably saving it for when he works out for teams.

Also, Hulk no offense, but the first part of your post has to have some of the worst grammer I have ever read.

Hello pot, meet Mr. Kettle. :jk:

Blake
03-28-2006, 09:22 AM
Yeah he had a slow 40 time I mean at least Vick ran like a 4.2 Who knows it will be something we will have to wait and see:brickwall

40 times are overrated. There is more to football than running a straight line for 40 yards. ya know, like running with your blocks, evading defenders, that kind of nonsense.

profan
03-28-2006, 10:40 AM
young had a poor pro day. i don't really care about the wonderlic, but the fact that he was unprepared for his pro day, after MONTHS of time to prepare, says a lot

Bad Pro Day? He completed 49 of 54 passes with one drop. Ran the 40 in 4.56. Most everyone left very impressed with his arm strength and accuracy. Had a great pro day.

Haams
03-28-2006, 01:46 PM
I had a thought. A lot of people are saying that Vince is ALREADY a better prospect than Michael Vick. Yet Vick was faster & has a more powerful arm...I just don't see how Vince is really a "Better Prospect."... :twocents:

Michael Vick (2000)
87-161 (54%) 1234 yards 8TD's 6 INT's
104 carries for 617 yards (5.9 avg) 8 TD's

Vince Young (2005)
212-325 (65.2%) 3,036 yards 26 TD's 10 INT's
155 carries for 1050 yards (6.8 avg) 12 TD's

So, in their final years Vince threw for more than twice as many yards and more than 3 times as many TD's (with a higher percentage.) He also averaged almost a yard more per carry. By the way, Vince is the size of a linebacker so injuries don't have to be such a concern. I'd call him a better prospect.

HoustonianStuckinCali
03-28-2006, 02:17 PM
First of all a QB's job at a pro day is to throw the ball effectively not post a fast 40 time. I think I can trust Sean's Salisbury an ex. QB instead of some unnamed scouts Chris Mortensen talks about (Who consequently is pulling for Jay Cutler). 49 out of 54 for passes in my book is getting it done. I really don't understand the comparison between Young and Vick. They're games are not even similar the only thing they have in common is a shared ethnic background and the fact that they are both great runners. Next Young's Forty time, have you ever seem him run, does he look fast like Vick, (no) but he's elusive and he runs very fluidly, making him a dual threat. He prepared himself which is obvious did you even see clips of him dropping back and hitting receivers before they came out of brakes (I know I did). I have never seen any draft prospect with as much scrutiny as Young. And don't give me the b.s (well he did it to himself). How? This Young man who had one of the best season's not just game's of any college Quarterback in history . (Remember Oklahoma State anyone). He also gives a great deal of his time off the field to community service he was one of eleven players named to the 2005 American Football Coaches Association Good Works Team for commitment to community service off the field. He's a leader, he has tremendous pose under pressure and he will in time be the greatest QB to ever play the game. People attack this guy because he will single handily change the game forever with his success which could have a detrimental economic impact on the game i.e. (The wavering fan base of the present day NBA) If you understand the demographics of America and understand which demographic is the quote on quote paying public and the importance of the Quarterback position in will all become clear. No longer will the All- American drop back passer (Code Word) be able to excel in the league. The league will have to have a QB with precession passing as well as athleticism (Code Word). That's why he draws so much scrutiny plane and simple. Wake up people these so called scouts are telling you not to believe your own eyes. I may not be a scout (part of the good old boy network) But I can tell you I have never seen anyone with the athletic talent, and all the intangibles that Young has. The only reason you knock him is because deep down inside you hate Young for playing the way he does and looking how he looks. I hate to be so blunt but someone had to say it. I know this post may cause some criticism but if you've heard of Occam's Razor the simplest explanation usually is the correct one. It just stands to reason the most scrutinized Quarterbacks in the league McNabb, Vick, Brooks, Cullpeper all seem to share one thing in common and it's not the fact they were all in the NFC at one time. :hmmm: :hmmm:

Big B Texan Fan
03-28-2006, 02:24 PM
Welcome HSC.

Good 1st post.

The guys will say "Paragraphs Plz" but all in all a good post. You can expect some kick-back on this.

Big B Texan Fan
03-28-2006, 02:26 PM
Michael Vick (2000)
87-161 (54%) 1234 yards 8TD's 6 INT's
104 carries for 617 yards (5.9 avg) 8 TD's

Vince Young (2005)
212-325 (65.2%) 3,036 yards 26 TD's 10 INT's
155 carries for 1050 yards (6.8 avg) 12 TD's

So, in their final years Vince threw for more than twice as many yards and more than 3 times as many TD's (with a higher percentage.) He also averaged almost a yard more per carry. By the way, Vince is the size of a linebacker so injuries don't have to be such a concern. I'd call him a better prospect.
I'd call him :superman:

Lucky
03-28-2006, 02:26 PM
Michael Vick (2000)
87-161 (54%) 1234 yards 8TD's 6 INT's
104 carries for 617 yards (5.9 avg) 8 TD's

Vince Young (2005)
212-325 (65.2%) 3,036 yards 26 TD's 10 INT's
155 carries for 1050 yards (6.8 avg) 12 TD's

So, in their final years Vince threw for more than twice as many yards and more than 3 times as many TD's (with a higher percentage.) He also averaged almost a yard more per carry. By the way, Vince is the size of a linebacker so injuries don't have to be such a concern. I'd call him a better prospect.
That's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison since:

1) Vick's Y2K season was hampered by a high ankle sprain during the Pitt game.

2) As a redshirt freshman, Vick led the nation in passing efficiency with a 180.37 per game average. Vick averaged over 20 yards per completion for the season, and was more of a downfield passer than Young was at Texas.

3) Vick only played 2 seasons in college, Young played 3. If you went strictly off their 1st 2 seasons, Vick would get the edge as a passer & Young would get the nod as a runner.

Vick & Young are compared to each other, not because they are exactly alike. But because they were both great college players with similar impacts on the game. The obvious differences - Young is bigger and a more productive runner. Vick is faster with a stronger arm.

Vick in '01 was a better prospect than Young is in '06, but Vick the NFL QB has had some influence on that. While the Falcons have won during Vick's time in Atlanta, he hasn't progressed as a passer as some observers had hoped. And experts are questioning how long Vick will be an impact player with his legs as injuries mount. NFL teams want QBs with mobility, but they don't want their QBs taking big hits while running downfield. Right now, it's not so great to be like Mike.

If Vince Young had been available for the 2001 draft, he would carry a higher rating than he does today. A Vick/Young battle over the top spot would have been interesting. Neither played in pro-style offenses. Both are fabulous runners. Young has the prototype size, Vick has the cannon and the quick release. It would have been close. But it's 2006, and the QBs who can manage the game and make plays with their arm are in vogue. That's why Young doesn't carry the grade now that he would have in '01.

HeartofHouston
03-28-2006, 02:43 PM
There is no doubt that Vince Young is a special talent and he will make some team very happen the only reason why I say anything negative about Vince Young is because 1, I know the type of person he is off the field.. alot of you may or may not have meet Vince off the field but I have.. Me and a couple of my friends got into a physical altercation with him and some of his friends from Madison. I personally know his REAL character. Not that b.s. television "Hi, I'm Vince Young.." act that he puts on for the people. I know the real Vince Young...

and on top of that with us just signing Carr back.. why would we draft Vince? So you're telling me that we should just pay Carr truckloads of momeny to sit behind Young and then we have the wait for another 3 years before Vince Young can pick up the NFL speed and style of offense.. (Might even be longer considering he didnt run an NFL style offense in college) ?? Or maybe you're saying sit Vince Young and have him learn the offense for a year or 2.??. I dont think so.. Ohhhh lemme guess we draft Vince and trade Carr?? Do you know what kinda salary cap hit we would take for doing something like that..?? Let's say we draft Vince and put him in front of Carr he has to get used to an NFL style offense, NFl speed and alsoo has to get used to not having that "zone-read-option" that allowed him to be the dominated college QB that he was.. so we lose for another 3 years.. but hey cause its Young and he's from Houston.. he'll sell a lotta tickets.. we'll guess what.. who cares?? Anybody with half a brain could tell you its all about winning the big game.

Cause with the people and the "FANS" they flip from from moment to moment.. so Young might be from houston and all but what happens when he flops then nobody's gonna care where he's from they're just gonna want him out. And then you're ticket sales drops.. But if you put together the proper formula to win a championship.. Then more people will be coming to your games and buying your jersey's and your franchise could be the next dynasty. So plan and simple if you wanna sell tickets then you draft Vince Young.. If you wanna sell tickets and win games then you draft somebody else.. (I refuse to turn this into another one of "THOSE" threads but you already know who)..

Nevertheless still a good first post tho..

infantrycak
03-28-2006, 02:47 PM
(Remember Oklahoma State anyone).

Yeah--Young had an absolutely fantastic game bringing UT back from a huge hole they had partially been put in by Young who had thrown an INT and given up a fumble in the 1st half. Read that for exactly what it says--he had a fantastic game, but he shouldn't have had to have that great game but for mistakes people tend to overlook because they won. In the NFL, a -2 on turnovers is a loss 90%+ of the time.

I know this post may cause some criticism but if you've heard of Occam's Razor the simplest explanation usually is the correct one. It just stands to reason the most scrutinized Quarterbacks in the league McNabb, Vick, Brooks, Cullpeper all seem to share one thing in common and it's not the fact they were all in the NFC at one time. :hmmm: :hmmm:

So a conspiracy of racism in sports owners, media and fans is a simpler explanation than the guys you have listed have had injury problems, inconsistancy problems and have been turnover machines?

By the way, you have a common misstatement of Occam's Razor--it actually says where two theories have equal predictive power, the one which makes fewer assumptions is more likely correct.

jerek
03-28-2006, 03:02 PM
First of all a QB's job at a pro day is to throw the ball effectively not post a fast 40 time. I think I can trust Sean's Salisbury an ex. QB instead of some unnamed scouts Chris Mortensen talks about (Who consequently is pulling for Jay Cutler). 49 out of 54 for passes in my book is getting it done. I really don't understand the comparison between Young and Vick. They're games are not even similar the only thing they have in common is a shared ethnic background and the fact that they are both great runners. Next Young's Forty time, have you ever seem him run, does he look fast like Vick, (no) but he's elusive and he runs very fluidly, making him a dual threat. He prepared himself which is obvious did you even see clips of him dropping back and hitting receivers before they came out of brakes (I know I did). I have never seen any draft prospect with as much scrutiny as Young. And don't give me the b.s (well he did it to himself). How? This Young man who had one of the best season's not just game's of any college Quarterback in history . (Remember Oklahoma State anyone). He also gives a great deal of his time off the field to community service he was one of eleven players named to the 2005 American Football Coaches Association Good Works Team for commitment to community service off the field. He's a leader, he has tremendous pose under pressure and he will in time be the greatest QB to ever play the game. People attack this guy because he will single handily change the game forever with his success which could have a detrimental economic impact on the game i.e. (The wavering fan base of the present day NBA) If you understand the demographics of America and understand which demographic is the quote on quote paying public and the importance of the Quarterback position in will all become clear. No longer will the All- American drop back passer (Code Word) be able to excel in the league. The league will have to have a QB with precession passing as well as athleticism (Code Word). That's why he draws so much scrutiny plane and simple. Wake up people these so called scouts are telling you not to believe your own eyes. I may not be a scout (part of the good old boy network) But I can tell you I have never seen anyone with the athletic talent, and all the intangibles that Young has. The only reason you knock him is because deep down inside you hate Young for playing the way he does and looking how he looks. I hate to be so blunt but someone had to say it. I know this post may cause some criticism but if you've heard of Occam's Razor the simplest explanation usually is the correct one. It just stands to reason the most scrutinized Quarterbacks in the league McNabb, Vick, Brooks, Cullpeper all seem to share one thing in common and it's not the fact they were all in the NFC at one time. :hmmm: :hmmm:

I was with you until about the second half of your post. The simple explanation as to why people aren't reserving him the automatic HOF spot that you ascribe to him is:

The guy has bad mechanics, hasn't played a pro offense, and hasn't taken a snap in the NFL yet.

You on the other hand provide the infinitely more complex conspiracy theory which - if I read correctly - is that Vince Young is black and thus people everywhere want to see him fail because of it.

Brooks is "scrutinized" because he flat out sucks (and it's been months since I've heard his name in the national press). Culpepper was scrutinized for sucking w/o Randy Moss this year and because he is [was] the de facto leader of a team caught with their collective pants down on a blow-n-BJs party boat. Vick because he was hyped just about to the level that VY is and has yet to demonstrate any real consistency in the league, and McNabb because he played with T.O, and QB/WR controversies are the rage. As for whitey, record-setting P. Manning came under fire this year and last after yet another sham of a playoff loss, guys like Kyle Boller and Joey Harrington don't have a lot of friends in the world right now, Eli Manning in NY last year, and maybe we should ask Ryan Leaf what he's up to these days? And do I need to talk about David Carr and the word 'scrutiny?'

Does Vince Young receive undue scrutiny? IMO yes. So do a bunch of other people who may or may not share the skin color. VY's performance at the Rose Bowl made him a star among stars: deal with it. When you are on top yes, people will take their shots, and some of them may even have closet racial motivations for doing so. But the press taking shots at the top dog is nothing new, and it certainly isn't limited to "people of color." Look around Washington these days if you think nationally-publicized witch hunts and sensationalistic reporting are just for non-whites. What's more, to talk as if the guy cannot be questioned or to speak of his success as guaranteed is every bit as foolish as some of these other little stories that the press won't let die (Wonderlic score, forgetting the suit, no Combine workout, slow 40, etc.).

Welcome to the MB, but don't expect that kind of argument to fly here. I for one am tired of the stigma that can be associated with questioning anyone not white about virtually anything, of people pointing fingers and crying racist when the exact same questions would be asked of a white guy with Young's exact game and same off-field decisions, displays, etc. It's America and you've got a right to believe that if it's what helps you sleep at night, but don't expect it to go uncriticized when you air it.

Young does not particularly deserve a lot of the flak he has caught, but it is the price of stardom. And I am sure his low-to-mid first round contract will be of some comfort to him as he laughs it off all the way to the bank.

thunderkyss
03-28-2006, 03:04 PM
No longer will the All- American drop back passer (Code Word) be able to excel in the league. The league will have to have a QB with precession passing as well as athleticism (Code Word). That's why he draws so much scrutiny plane and simple. Wake up people these so called scouts are telling you not to believe your own eyes.

Great Post, but let's keep it above the waist. In this forum, and in Houston, it's about David Carr, Vince Young, and Reggie Bush......... nothing else.

thunderkyss
03-28-2006, 03:10 PM
Do you know what kinda salary cap hit we would take for doing something like that..?? Let's say we draft Vince and put him in front of Carr he has to get used to an NFL style offense, NFl speed and alsoo has to get used to not having that "zone-read-option" that allowed him to be the dominated college QB that he was.. so we lose for another 3 years..

Nevertheless still a good first post tho..

First of all, David Starts 2006, no questions asked. As long as our season isn't in the can, Vince Rides the Pine.

We trade Carr in 2007..... a cap hit, but not as big. We'll still get value for him, because he is ours for two years still. Not like Franchising Brees, which makes him a FA at the end of the season. So, the Chargers get Nada.

& you do understand Carr still needs to get used to on NFL style offense, NFL speed, and reading NFL defenses don't you?? He also needs to work on his throwing motion.

stevo3883
03-28-2006, 03:19 PM
Yeah--Young had an absolutely fantastic game bringing UT back from a huge hole they had partially been put in by Young who had thrown an INT and given up a fumble in the 1st half. Read that for exactly what it says--he had a fantastic game, but he shouldn't have had to have that great game but for mistakes people tend to overlook because they won. In the NFL, a -2 on turnovers is a loss 90%+ of the time.


oh come on now, im assuming you actually saw the game. it was bad defensive play and a couple of really fluke plays that put UT behind.

don't even try to pin that on Young.

HoustonianStuckinCali
03-28-2006, 03:20 PM
Infantrycak
By the way, you have a common misstatement of Occam's Razor--it actually says where two theories have equal predictive power, the one which makes fewer assumptions is more likely correct.


Before you correct me at least have Occam's Razor stated Correctly. The main principal of Occam Razor actually states in latin entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem which can me be transalted in to english entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity. But Like Occam I am a reductionist so I chose to simplify what I was triying to state to get my basic premise across. And to the guy who know's Young off the field, I myself know Young as well. And I can not say what happened in your altercation with Young but I can say if you caught me in an altercation (And I consider myself a man with high ideals and principals) You would see me in a different light as well. The totlaity of a man can not be measured from one meeting do we agree. And no I don't think the Texas are going to draft Young. But my stament was made not it hopes to turn the tide but to stop the rediculous Young bashing and more importanlty make people think.

infantrycak
03-28-2006, 03:25 PM
oh come on now, im assuming you actually saw the game. it was bad defensive play and a couple of really fluke plays that put UT behind.

don't even try to pin that on Young.

I'm not pinning the whole thing on Young, I said partially. Yes the D was playing badly but Young did throw an INT and fumble the ball. Are you really saying his turnovers didn't contribute to them being behind? Don't take the comment for more than intended--like I said he had a fantastic game overall.

Like a lot of QB's Young needs to do a better job securing the ball at times--he runs with it in one hand away from his body too much. That's an easily correctable problem, or at least should be--seems like lots of QB's have that problem.

infantrycak
03-28-2006, 03:30 PM
But Like Occam I am a reductionist so I chose to simplify what I was triying to state to get my basic premise across.

Reductionism doesn't equate to being simplistic and changing the meaning. In any event, your "explanation" wasn't even simpler so it fails either way.

swtbound07
03-28-2006, 03:51 PM
There is no doubt that Vince Young is a special talent and he will make some team very happen the only reason why I say anything negative about Vince Young is because 1, I know the type of person he is off the field.. alot of you may or may not have meet Vince off the field but I have.. Me and a couple of my friends got into a physical altercation with him and some of his friends from Madison. I personally know his REAL character. Not that b.s. television "Hi, I'm Vince Young.." act that he puts on for the people. I know the real Vince Young...
and on top of that with us just signing Carr back.. why would we draft Vince? So you're telling me that we should just pay Carr truckloads of momeny to sit behind Young and then we have the wait for another 3 years before Vince Young can pick up the NFL speed and style of offense.. (Might even be longer considering he didnt run an NFL style offense in college) ?? Or maybe you're saying sit Vince Young and have him learn the offense for a year or 2.??. I dont think so.. Ohhhh lemme guess we draft Vince and trade Carr?? Do you know what kinda salary cap hit we would take for doing something like that..?? Let's say we draft Vince and put him in front of Carr he has to get used to an NFL style offense, NFl speed and alsoo has to get used to not having that "zone-read-option" that allowed him to be the dominated college QB that he was.. so we lose for another 3 years.. but hey cause its Young and he's from Houston.. he'll sell a lotta tickets.. we'll guess what.. who cares?? Anybody with half a brain could tell you its all about winning the big game.

Cause with the people and the "FANS" they flip from from moment to moment.. so Young might be from houston and all but what happens when he flops then nobody's gonna care where he's from they're just gonna want him out. And then you're ticket sales drops.. But if you put together the proper formula to win a championship.. Then more people will be coming to your games and buying your jersey's and your franchise could be the next dynasty. So plan and simple if you wanna sell tickets then you draft Vince Young.. If you wanna sell tickets and win games then you draft somebody else.. (I refuse to turn this into another one of "THOSE" threads but you already know who)..

Nevertheless still a good first post tho..


Seriously? You and somebody else got into a fight with vince young? First of all, not saying that i buy that, second of all.....so what? Football is a violent game...if he can throw down all the better in my book.

Runner
03-28-2006, 03:52 PM
Occam's Razor - if you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.:)

uhcougar08
03-28-2006, 04:57 PM
Do you do research? Do you even hear yourself? Do you not remember the Vick-led falcons in the NFC championship game? I seem to recall them destroying the rams with a playoff record rushing total.hasnt done anything huh?

Point 2. His throwing motion. Phillip Rivers had the most bootleg throwing motion i have ever seen and he still got drafted #4 overall

Actually, teams are catching up to Vick, even though he is my favorite player.

Oh ya, I forgot, Phillip rivers took the Chargers to the playoffs last year, and he is a great starter, and i loved him in the Pro Bowl, and what the heck has he done since he has come in.............I will let you answer that.

Do not try to make a point for your guy with a guy who hasn't even seen the grass on the field.

AJExplosion80
03-28-2006, 05:28 PM
Vince young this vince young that. Michael Vick this Michael Vick that. Ok people we are not going to draft Vince Young and if we do we should automatically fire Mr Casserly. We signed Sage Rosenfels who is not good and we have David Carr who has been good in his career due to circumstances he has had. No line, 1 good WR, and a good RB of course. But not even the almighty (Cough) VY could have escaped all that. Carr will be just fine and I was personally glad we kept him and didn't get rid of him. I think a better comparison for Young is Steve McNair who was as big as Young and maybe a tad slower but about the same. McNair was really good back in his younger days. I think if Vince really was looking at the best situation for him to succeed it would be Tennessee with Jeff Fisher and to be able to learn from Steve McNair. I am not a huge VY guy but I still have respect for any man that can do some of the stuff he can do. All I got to say is if we keep #1 we better take Bush because he will do really good with having DD to be there and they can split carries and we can keep them both fresh and healthy. Go Texans:stirpot:

MorKnolle
03-28-2006, 07:34 PM
Bad Pro Day? He completed 49 of 54 passes with one drop. Ran the 40 in 4.56. Most everyone left very impressed with his arm strength and accuracy. Had a great pro day.

It was pointed out that he did not throw a full range of routes (only threw the easier routes) and generally waited for his receivers to come out of their breaks rather than timing the routes properly, which didn't answer many questions about his throwing abilities.

As a side note, Jay Cutler was supposed to be very impressive at his pro day.

oh come on now, im assuming you actually saw the game. it was bad defensive play and a couple of really fluke plays that put UT behind.

don't even try to pin that on Young.

Since when is leading a comeback against Oklahoma State a great feat? I understand he had a great Rose Bowl, but come on, using Oklahoma State as an example of his merit?

hollywood_texan
03-28-2006, 08:31 PM
It was pointed out that he did not throw a full range of routes (only threw the easier routes) and generally waited for his receivers to come out of their breaks rather than timing the routes properly, which didn't answer many questions about his throwing abilities.

As a side note, Jay Cutler was supposed to be very impressive at his pro day.

I heard the opposite, he threw all routes but he did wait for them to break.

Bottom line, Vince Young was a winner in college and excelled under pressure.

Combine that with his talents and the right system for his talents, he will probably duplicate what he did in college in the NFL. The guy just finds a way and has the work ethic to do it.

I believe you really can't compare him to Michael Vick and the durability issue because he is bigger and he doesn't turn himself into a human catapult like Vick. I think of more Young like a John Elway, with regard to his running, that is elusive to buy more time or pick up some yards.

MorKnolle
03-28-2006, 08:39 PM
First of all, David Starts 2006, no questions asked. As long as our season isn't in the can, Vince Rides the Pine.

We trade Carr in 2007..... a cap hit, but not as big. We'll still get value for him, because he is ours for two years still. Not like Franchising Brees, which makes him a FA at the end of the season. So, the Chargers get Nada.

& you do understand Carr still needs to get used to on NFL style offense, NFL speed, and reading NFL defenses don't you?? He also needs to work on his throwing motion.

This idea that I've seen mentioned numerous times amuses me. Daunte Culpepper only yielded a mid-2nd round pick this year after having two of the best seasons ever by a QB (2000 and 2004). Granted he had a few rougher years in between, but all the Vikings got was a 2nd round pick. So either David Carr is going to have a phenomenal season and we can trade him for a 2nd round pick, or he's going to not do so well (which most of you VY people think he is not an NFL-quality QB, so why would he do well). If he doesn't do well, what kind of trade do you expect us to get for him? If he plays about like he did in his 3rd season, then we maybe get a 3rd round pick for him, and take a $5 million cap hit to do so, if he plays phenomenally then we might get a mid-high 2nd for him, still taking a $5 million cap hit which isn't really worth a 2nd round pick, and we'd be trading off a QB that apparently has become one of the NFL's elite if a team is offering that much for him. I don't see how that is a good situation for our team.

I heard the opposite, he threw all routes but he did wait for them to break.

Bottom line, Vince Young was a winner in college and excelled under pressure.

Combine that with his talents and the right system for his talents, he will probably duplicate what he did in college in the NFL. The guy just finds a way and has the work ethic to do it.

I believe you really can't compare him to Michael Vick and the durability issue because he is bigger and he doesn't turn himself into a human catapult like Vick. I think of more Young like a John Elway, with regard to his running, that is elusive to buy more time or pick up some yards.

That's the main difference in hearing the news from the local TV stations and from a national perspective. All the local people said he did great and threw all the routes, ESPN and the other national news said he didn't throw many of the difficult routes and didn't do much to improve his draft stock.

Lucky
03-28-2006, 08:55 PM
That's the main difference in hearing the news from the local TV stations and from a national perspective. All the local people said he did great and threw all the routes, ESPN and the other national news said he didn't throw many of the difficult routes and didn't do much to improve his draft stock.
There's a clip of Young's workout on houstontexans.com's Texans Internet TV (http://www.houstontexans.com/). Check it out, and see what you think.

Kaiser Toro
03-28-2006, 09:10 PM
Since when is leading a comeback against Oklahoma State a great feat? I understand he had a great Rose Bowl, but come on, using Oklahoma State as an example of his merit?

Rarely do I bleed orange, but I have to say something. You are correct in that he put some numbers against a bad team, but the way he led them in the come back from a first half debacle should get some kudos.

MorKnolle
03-28-2006, 10:39 PM
There's a clip of Young's workout on houstontexans.com's Texans Internet TV (http://www.houstontexans.com/). Check it out, and see what you think.

Didn't really see enough to tell, and what little they showed didn't show the whole route the WRs were running so you can't really tell much by it. He seemed to hit his guys fairly accurately but then again the clip only had maybe 10 throws and didn't seem to have many of the more difficult ones. His mechanics still look very awkward, that's about the only definitive thing I could see from it.

stevo3883
03-28-2006, 10:45 PM
Since when is leading a comeback against Oklahoma State a great feat? I understand he had a great Rose Bowl, but come on, using Oklahoma State as an example of his merit?

he set an NCAA record that game.

and do you not see the hypocrisy when Bush is enshrined into football lore because of his performance against FRESNO STATE!?!?

MorKnolle
03-28-2006, 10:56 PM
he set an NCAA record that game.

and do you not see the hypocrisy when Bush is enshrined into football lore because of his performance against FRESNO STATE!?!?

I have never put Bush on any kind of pedestal for his performance against Fresno. I was merely pointing out that you were using his performance against the 2nd worst defense they played all year as your example in that post as to why he was special.

Texans_Chick
03-28-2006, 11:05 PM
As long as we are discussing projected college stats, this is an interesting article:

Rookie QB Projection System (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5449322)

Basically, this guy has come up with a system to try to predict future QB success.

Conclusions
When I started developing the quarterback projection system, I was almost hoping that it would indicate that one of the three top prospects was going to be a bust, just so I could say that I called it. But the system projects all three to be good pros. Based on the numbers Leinart should go first of the three, and then Cutler or Young depending on whether the team is going to utilize Young's unique talents properly. This is exactly how it looks like things are going to go. The situation each quarterback is drafted into will probably end up being the deciding factor on which one has the most NFL success, although I expect Matt Leinart to do well no matter where he ends up.

For controversial predictions, you need to go to the second and third rounds. The system projects that Clemson's Charlie Whitehurst will be a good pro, Bowling Green's Omar Jacobs a solid starter, and Alabama's Brodie Croyle a bust. But the most interesting projection is for a player who isn't even in this year's draft. According to this projection system, Philip Rivers will emerge as one of the top quarterbacks in the league over the next couple of years. It turns out that letting Drew Brees go to New Orleans may not have been a mistake after all.


I'm not sure that I am buying all the premises in his article, and unfortunately the link that talks about his methodology seems to be broken. But for those peeps interested in QBs in the 2006 draft it is a good read.

(I'd be interested in trying to figure out the projections of QBs we are still waiting on--like Carr--but I don't particularly feel like wading through old Fresno State stats).

kcwilson
03-29-2006, 12:34 AM
Not to argue...... but did he have a poor combine?? I'm hearing mixed reports. The speed thing, I never thought anybody said he was fast though. Fast for his size, and an elusive runner.

I agree... Vince's speed is a non-issue. He is quick, fast, whatever you want to call it... Dude can move... if he runs a 4.5 or 4.6 or even a 4.7, all I know is that he shows tremendous game speed... it is tough to always use non-game scenarios as the be all and end all.

thunderkyss
03-29-2006, 12:49 AM
This idea that I've seen mentioned numerous times amuses me. Daunte Culpepper only yielded a mid-2nd round pick this year after having two of the best seasons ever by a QB (2000 and 2004). Granted he had a few rougher years in between, but all the Vikings got was a 2nd round pick. So either David Carr is going to have a phenomenal season and we can trade him for a 2nd round pick, or he's going to not do so well (which most of you VY people think he is not an NFL-quality QB, so why would he do well). If he doesn't do well, what kind of trade do you expect us to get for him? If he plays about like he did in his 3rd season, then we maybe get a 3rd round pick for him, and take a $5 million cap hit to do so, if he plays phenomenally then we might get a mid-high 2nd for him, still taking a $5 million cap hit which isn't really worth a 2nd round pick, and we'd be trading off a QB that apparently has become one of the NFL's elite if a team is offering that much for him. I don't see how that is a good situation for our team.



I see what you're saying. But I calculated a $4 mil hit next year, and $2 mill the year after. I believe McNair has a relationship with Carr. Because of that, he doesn't want to just drop Carr. Kubiak also said he was going to do everything he can to make sure Carr experiences some success.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, we may only get a 4th rounder, or a 7th, who knows.

I wanted to let Carr walk at the end of 2005. I wanted to continue with the 3-4. I wanted to get a pass rushing DE, Darren Howard like, I wanted to keep Gafney, and pay Wells already.

there's a handful of people on this board who think what I want matters a great deal(hence they get so worked up when I don't want what they want) but I'm just a fan who wants what I want....... even if it doesn't make financial sense.

kcwilson
03-29-2006, 12:49 AM
Hey E(USC)PN is not a reliable source dude. I have read about 100 or so news articles from all over the country and they all said Vince did great. You haters should just give it up, you are really making yourselves look ridiculous

Ron Jaworski, ESPN, on the Colin Cowherd show this week said that VY made every throw he was asked to make and performed very well. His thought is the release is a little low, but it was still quite fast and not an issue because of his height.

The only real negative pointed out was that the shorter routes, he seemed a little too relaxed. But having seen many of the games, most everyone knows that short route throwing, he can be very efficient.

thunderkyss
03-29-2006, 01:10 AM
Ron Jaworski, ESPN, on the Colin Cowherd show this week said that VY made every throw he was asked to make and performed very well. His thought is the release is a little low, but it was still quite fast and not an issue because of his height.

The only real negative pointed out was that the shorter routes, he seemed a little too relaxed. But having seen many of the games, most everyone knows that short route throwing, he can be very efficient.

I just got finished watching it, and the first thing I noticed, there were ony two throws, where he had that sidearm thing going. On every other throw, he had a wierd tomohawk looking motion, and then when his arm got to the bottom of it's travel, he'd shake it off, like he wasn't completely comfortable with what he was doing.

There was only one throw shown, that went deep. I think the reciever slowed down a bit to get it. but everything coming out of the backfield, were on the money. the RB didn't have to break stride.

Everything else, were mainly crossing patterns. not much to be excited about.l

I've never seen a QB's workout before........ I don't think I'd have made the trip, knowing that he'll be coming to Houston in a week or two.


One thing I must say I'm very disappointed in, is that Vince really didn't put too much of an effort into his buttKiss'n. I mean McNair was right there. I'd have expected him to go to one knee at least...... but no. nothing.

I bet Reggie wouldn't let an opportunity like that go to waste. I know I wouldn't.

kbourda
03-29-2006, 01:17 AM
One thing I must say I'm very disappointed in, is that Vince really didn't put too much of an effort into his buttKiss'n. I mean McNair was right there. I'd have expected him to go to one knee at least...... but no. nothing.

I bet Reggie wouldn't let an opportunity like that go to waste. I know I wouldn't.

What else does he need to say? We all are aware how much he wants to play here. I'm sure the FO knows as well. I think he would just be playing himself at this point to keep mentioning his desires to play here. Especially knowing what we all know. Believe me, i'm with you 100%. I want us to take him but I know it isn't happening. Reguardless of what he does or says.