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Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 09:13 AM
A few notable quotes from the article...
______

Texans to take a closer look at Young

"I'm excited to watch Vince throw because he's a really talented young man, but the Longhorns have a lot of other good prospects, too," McNair said. "I'm looking forward to watching all of them."

"Since Vince didn't participate in the drills at the combine, this is our first chance to see him since the Rose Bowl," McNair said. "I can listen to the coaches and scouts tell me about Vince. I can watch him on film, too, but I still like to watch him work out. "We plan to bring Vince and Reggie to Houston, too, so we can meet with them."

Asked what Davis told him about Young, Kubiak smiled and said, "A lot of great things, naturally."

"Hey, it's how the kid plays the game," Kubiak said. "Greg Davis said Vince was a great kid who's very coachable. Greg feels like Vince is just getting started as far as reaching his full potential as a quarterback."

Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3739988.html)

texan279
03-22-2006, 09:15 AM
On the Cold Pizza preview a few minutes ago, they said Casserly, Kubiak, and McNair were all going to Austin to watch Young's workout. They said the Texans are undecided between Young and Bush...

Runner
03-22-2006, 09:22 AM
I'm surprised. I thought the front office was going to officially announce their first pick on Cold Pizza this morning. :sarcasm:

SteelBlueToro
03-22-2006, 10:47 AM
It's a courtesy call. Imagine the reaction if the Texans sent only the scouting staff! :redtowel:

Tha_Tinman
03-22-2006, 10:53 AM
It's a courtesy call. Imagine the reaction if the Texans sent only the scouting staff! :redtowel:

Spoken like a fine Sam Houston State University Bearkat, lol.

Kinda like JOSH MCCOWN ...I STILL can't believe the Texans didn't look at him.

But anyway, The Texan coaching staff almost HAD to be there for this thing. They also hinted that they might be looking at some other players there ...like Michael Huff. Hmm...

el toro
03-22-2006, 10:55 AM
UT does have other guys slated to go in the 1st 3 rounds. Jonathan Scott comes to mind as a guy likely available at #33.

Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 11:04 AM
It's telling indeed that McNair himself will be there to judge talent.

thunderkyss
03-22-2006, 11:41 AM
I think it is a good move to bring such an entourage. Hopefully Vince will go off, and the hype will be back on... So that folks will want our #1..

I also read in that article, that Vince will be interviewed in Houston...... another good move.

I liked how the chronicle "drew" out the 6 point of reference map from Kubes to Greg Davis, to Vince...... kinda get that inside good ole boy rumor mill rolling.

TheOgre
03-22-2006, 11:44 AM
Kinda like JOSH MCCOWN ...I STILL can't believe the Texans didn't look at him.

It doesn't matter. He wanted to go to a situation where he had a chance to start this season. Detroit gives him that. Houston would not have.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 11:51 AM
I think it is a good move to bring such an entourage. Hopefully Vince will go off, and the hype will be back on... So that folks will want our #1..



Even if Vince has a great pro day, and everyone does, it will not affect any team in wanting to trade up to #1 to get Vince Young. Vince is a great prospect, but is not #1 quality because he isn't even the best player at his position.

Porky
03-22-2006, 12:00 PM
This is nothing more than a dog and pony show to appease the Horns out there. Sending Mcnair gives the appearance that we are really undecided between Bush and Young, and gives them a bit of ammo against the Tsips. Unless VY has the best workout of any QB ever, this decision is all but signed, sealed, and delivered. In fact, the envolope is already at the podium just waiting for Tags to open it Apr 29th.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 12:02 PM
I heard somewhere that Bush is coming in as well ....

tulexan
03-22-2006, 12:04 PM
Didn't people say last year that Alex Smith had the best workout since Troy Aikman? I don't think the results of his pro day will change anything.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 12:05 PM
Even if Vince has a great pro day, and everyone does, it will not affect any team in wanting to trade up to #1 to get Vince Young. Vince is a great prospect, but is not #1 quality because he isn't even the best player at his position.

You say that like it's a fact. According to scouting services, Leinart is #1. NFL Teams have to make picks, they aren't scouting services. They have preferences and schemes and their own draft grades; their picks aren't always based on consensus evaluations. If they have the same arm strength, but Leinart is more accurate and wiser in the pocket, while Young is a vastly superior athlete, how is it that cut and dry that Leinart is the guy? Young's passing efficiency was superior to Leinart's with a lesser supporting unit, so the argument that Leinart is a better passer isn't that cut and dry either. Young seems to possess some rare winning and playmaking attributes. He shouldn't be written off so quickly. Here's a quick question, who would Denver pick between Young and Leinart? That's not so simple.

That being said, I don't think anyone moves up to #1 for Young, because now it seems that he will slip out of the top 3. However, that doesn't mean guys drafted in front of him are better prospects. Randy Moss anyone?

tulexan
03-22-2006, 12:19 PM
The reason why he isn't the #1 QB prospect is because he has the most risk. Sure, he may have the highest potential returns of all of the QBs, but people don't like to pick extremely risky players that high. Think of it like investing in a junk bond. You can potentially get really high returns then you would on a safer company, but you also have the risk of losing all of your invested money. Vince is a junk bond, Leinart is a Coca Cola bond.

F-minus67
03-22-2006, 12:24 PM
Like everyone said, this is just a bad smoke screen to try to make someone nervous and want to trade up.

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 12:36 PM
The reason why he isn't the #1 QB prospect is because he has the most risk. Sure, he may have the highest potential returns of all of the QBs, but people don't like to pick extremely risky players that high. Think of it like investing in a junk bond. You can potentially get really high returns then you would on a safer company, but you also have the risk of losing all of your invested money. Vince is a junk bond, Leinart is a Coca Cola bond.


You just never know what a team might value. And usually, they are not shouting what they want from the mountaintops during the draft period. Typically the top picks are overvalued statistically, and partially that is because of the hype and marque value of those positions.

2001 Mike Vick was taken with the 1st pick even though he wasn't nearly a finished product but finished strong that year. VY's stats make Vick's college stats look anemic. Stats combined with his intangibles and size make VY an intriguing choice.

With all the hype and noise and whatnot, it would not surprise me at all if someone reached up and got him. Personally, I would not be someone that would bet against him achieving good things on the next level.

(It would non-surprise me if Dallas was working to try to get him. JJ is known for his flamboyant flash picks, he reached to get Quincy Carter as an attempt to get a Vick, even though statistically QC isn't in the same universe and JJ is all about sales and winning and betting on the upside and plastic surgery, but that last bit there has nothing to do with the draft, other than potentially frightening recruits and small children.).

el toro
03-22-2006, 12:43 PM
I would definitely not be surprised to see Jones make a serious play to land a top 5 pick in order to land Young.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 12:45 PM
I believe there is a bit of a misunderstanding and it's my fault because I didn't clarify my point too well. A team might trade up to get Vince Young, but it won't be with any of the teams in the top 3 because teams know that they can trade with a team like the Packers or the Niners and still get him. There is no point in paying more than you have to for a player.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 12:46 PM
2001 Mike Vick was taken with the 1st pick even though he wasn't nearly a finished product but finished strong that year. VY's stats make Vick's college stats look anemic. Stats combined with his intangibles and size make VY an intriguing choice.

With all the hype and noise and whatnot, it would not surprise me at all if someone reached up and got him. Personally, I would not be someone that would bet against him achieving good things on the next level.

All good points, but one counter/question. Vick was the consensus best QB prospect. There wasn't even another 1st round QB taken. Do you have any examples of a guy who was not the consensus #1 jumping the #1 guy?

Please_Evolve
03-22-2006, 12:47 PM
You just never know what a team might value. And usually, they are not shouting what they want from the mountaintops during the draft period. Typically the top picks are overvalued statistically, and partially that is because of the hype and marque value of those positions.

2001 Mike Vick was taken with the 1st pick even though he wasn't nearly a finished product but finished strong that year. VY's stats make Vick's college stats look anemic. Stats combined with his intangibles and size make VY an intriguing choice.

With all the hype and noise and whatnot, it would not surprise me at all if someone reached up and got him. Personally, I would not be someone that would bet against him achieving good things on the next level.

(It would non-surprise me if Dallas was working to try to get him. JJ is known for his flamboyant flash picks, he reached to get Quincy Carter as an attempt to get a Vick, even though statistically QC isn't in the same universe and JJ is all about sales and winning and betting on the upside and plastic surgery, but that last bit there has nothing to do with the draft, other than potentially frightening recruits and small children.).


hahah nice shot.

In truth though i have to agree with the Mike Vick part.

IMHO though i might get flamed to hell...Mike Vick is one of the most overated players in the NFL. Hasn't really done anything since the Green Bay playoff defeat(Unless you're playing Madden). But i'm sure there are statues being planned in Atlanta.

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 12:53 PM
I believe there is a bit of a misunderstanding and it's my fault because I didn't clarify my point too well. A team might trade up to get Vince Young, but it won't be with any of the teams in the top 3 because teams know that they can trade with a team like the Packers or the Niners and still get him. There is no point in paying more than you have to for a player.


And I am saying I think it is a little early to say that nobody will reach up into the top three for VY.

Nobody "knows" anything thing for certain until the draft goes down. Teams reach for picks all the time if they really want a particular guy. Though you might disagree with it, there is a case that can be made that VY is the type of player worth reaching for.

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 01:02 PM
All good points, but one counter/question. Vick was the consensus best QB prospect. There wasn't even another 1st round QB taken. Do you have any examples of a guy who was not the consensus #1 jumping the #1 guy?


True about Vick. Though he was a bit of a reach for an overall #1--everyone was all betting on his upside. This is what happens when someone falls in love with a particular guy. That happens all the time. Especially, when marketing starts easing into the conversation.

It is end of March. More Pro Days are coming and individual workouts for teams. I think it is early to be talking about what the consensus anything is.

Hype is a weird animal and things can change over short periods of time.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 01:05 PM
All good points, but one counter/question. Vick was the consensus best QB prospect. There wasn't even another 1st round QB taken. Do you have any examples of a guy who was not the consensus #1 jumping the #1 guy?

At RB I remember Ricky Williams getting some play as a top #3 pick and Edge going ahead of him. Surely he was the consensus guy, but Indy wanted a superior receiver if I recall correctly, a guy closer to Marshall Faulk's abilities.

At QB, McNair had many of the questions Young had, but went ahead of Kerry Collins. Collins led the NCAA in passing efficiency in 1994, but wasn't as highly regarded as McNair.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 01:11 PM
At QB, McNair had many of the questions Young had, but went ahead of Kerry Collins. Collins led the NCAA in passing efficiency in 1994, but wasn't as highly regarded as McNair.

That isn't the scenario I am asking about. What I am asking is can anyone think of an example(s) where there was a consensus #1 QB and come draft day a team fell in love with the #2 QB and took him above the consensus #1--basically one team disagreed with the consensus and drafted against it?

Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 01:16 PM
There is no way to totally throw away the chance that VY may still be the #1 pick -- if Vick doesn't prove that i'm not sure what will...

tulexan
03-22-2006, 01:22 PM
Your right.

There is a 99.999% chance that he won't be the #1 pick

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 01:23 PM
That isn't the scenario I am asking about. What I am asking is can anyone think of an example(s) where there was a consensus #1 QB and come draft day a team fell in love with the #2 QB and took him above the consensus #1--basically one team disagreed with the consensus and drafted against it?

I do not know how anyone could answer that question. I tried looking, but it is an exercise in futility. However, in my research I was looking at the 83 draft. We always hear about the QB's from that draft, but man were there some great players other than QB's that came out of it.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/1983

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 01:29 PM
Your right.

There is a 99.999% chance that he won't be the #1 pick

Can you please share with us the model that helped you form that conclusion? I do not want VY, but that is a pretty high number.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 01:29 PM
I do not know how anyone could answer that question. I tried looking, but it is an exercise in futility.

Well it would pretty much have to at least start with a personal memory--something like knowing Leaf was ranked higher by most folks than Manning (IMO that wasn't true but just as an example). I just don't recall a QB shocker pick at the top of the 1st round where people were surprised by who went 1st. Doesn't mean it won't happen--just an observation/question.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 01:33 PM
Can you please share with us the model that helped you form that conclusion? I do not want VY, but that is a pretty high number.


Of course, let me just review my notes for a few minutes.

thunderkyss
03-22-2006, 01:33 PM
All good points, but one counter/question. Vick was the consensus best QB prospect. There wasn't even another 1st round QB taken. Do you have any examples of a guy who was not the consensus #1 jumping the #1 guy?


Wasn't Ryan Leaf the consensus #1 when Manning got picked ahead of him??

chuckm
03-22-2006, 01:34 PM
Wasn't Ryan Leaf the consensus #1 when Manning got picked ahead of him??


uh no

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 01:37 PM
Wasn't Ryan Leaf the consensus #1 when Manning got picked ahead of him??

My recollection is more people favored Manning as the more polished/NFL ready QB while some folks favored Leaf's superior athletic ability (now that I type that it has overtones of this debate while involving totally different players).

From an outside source:

There was actually significant debate over whether Leaf or Manning should be selected first. Leaf (6'5", 235 lbs) had a considerably stronger arm, but most analysts agreed that Manning was the more mature player. On draft day Manning seemed to be the consensus top choice and was selected first by the Indianapolis Colts.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Leaf)

thunderkyss
03-22-2006, 01:39 PM
Even if Vince has a great pro day, and everyone does, it will not affect any team in wanting to trade up to #1 to get Vince Young. Vince is a great prospect, but is not #1 quality because he isn't even the best player at his position.

Says you.., and a bunch of other people who have been wrong about QBs more times than I can shake a stick at. It is in our Best interest, to make it appear that we are interested in taking Vince, especially if he has a great pro day, like he's had a great junior year, and two great Rose Bowl performances.

Your Vince Young bias is not helping us at all.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 01:40 PM
That isn't the scenario I am asking about. What I am asking is can anyone think of an example(s) where there was a consensus #1 QB and come draft day a team fell in love with the #2 QB and took him above the consensus #1--basically one team disagreed with the consensus and drafted against it?

Jim McMahon was drafted immediately after Art Schlichter. Don't think we've got draft grades from 1982 though. Any historians out there? A lot of people preferred Leaf's tools to Manning, but I've read psychological profiles of the two revealed Manning to be a stud and Leaf a loser, so Indy took Peyton. There was Bledsoe and Mirer in 1993, with Bledsoe going #1. That was a Parcells pick, was that one of "his guys" that he fell in love with? Mirer had a superior rookie year. Don't know if he was the consensus guy though.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 02:08 PM
Says you.., and a bunch of other people who have been wrong about QBs more times than I can shake a stick at. It is in our Best interest, to make it appear that we are interested in taking Vince, especially if he has a great pro day, like he's had a great junior year, and two great Rose Bowl performances.

Your Vince Young bias is not helping us at all.


Everyone knows that the Texans aren't taking Vince Young. Well I shouldn't say everyone, because there are still the few delusional fans that believe we will, but besides them everyone knows that he isn't going to the Texans. If we were going to draft Vince Young we wouldn't have extended David Carr to a 3 year contract and given him an $8 million signing bonus. He would have been either transitioned tagged, franchise tagged, or signed to a 2 year extension with a $5 million bonus. We also have Kubiak talking about how much he loves Carr, we know that Reeves loves Carr, we know that the Texans went to several talent scouts across the league who all said that Carr was not the problem. Not to mention all of the subtle and overt statements from Casserly, Kubiak, and various other team sources that imply that we will be drafting Reggie Bush.

His pro day will have little effect on his draft status. If he throws well then he will remain a top 10 pick most likely going to the Raiders at 7. If he throws poorly, he will probably fall to the Cardinals at 10. If he has a terrible pro day (which never happens), he might fall a few spots lower. He will probably have a Big Ben type fall rather than an Aaron Rodgers lead balloon fall.

But if you look at the projections before the Rose Bowl, this is the area where he was projected to be drafted anyways. That is why it isn't really even a fall. It's not like he had been the consensus top pick and has dropped. He was originally a top 10 pick, after the Rose Bowl the hype machine was firing on all cylinders and he rose to a top 3 pick, and then reality set in and emotions cooled and he returned back to where he should be. He had a momentary spike, but returned to where he should be.

Like in most situations, emotion produces short term results, but logic wins out in the long run.


That being said, Vince could eventually turn out to be the best QB of this years draft class. But so could Matt Leinart, so could Jay Cutler, so could Brody Croyle, so could Omar Jacobs, and every other QB in this draft class. The reason why he won't be drafted #1 is because that would require some other team trading up to get him. We have already said that we want a Godfather deal. That would mean that some team would have to give up multiple high draft picks in this years draft and next years (two draft classes deep with talent) for someone who is a risk/high return player. Not only that, but he most likely won't see the field for at least a season or two. In this age of producing results right now or being fired, I don't believe that any coach/gm will give up multiple high draft picks for a player that they may never see play while they are employed.

If you are going to give up that many picks in the next two talent deep drafts, you are going to want to get a player that you are confident will be successful as soon as possible. That is why if any team is going to trade up for a QB, it will be for Leinart.

jerek
03-22-2006, 02:15 PM
Can you please share with us the model that helped you form that conclusion? I do not want VY, but that is a pretty high number.

I would put it closer to 95%.

If Vince puts together a phenomenal pro day, it will cause a public buzz, but unless he truly has tricks he hasn't shown us yet, how will that truly elevate his draft stock? Pro days demonstrate measurables (like speed, though I still predict Vince running in the low 4.4s, and I predict generosity from the timekeeper) and past that, not much, as the conditions tend to be controlled and not particularly gamelike.

He came out this year because of his phenomenal Rose Bowl, and he can't do much better than that to show what he's got. Unless he times at 4.29 or guns the rock 75 yards off his back foot, don't expect much to change. Same QB, same positives, same negatives. Pro days are like car shows: lots of gleam, but won't tell you a whole hell of a lot that you don't already know.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 02:17 PM
I would put it closer to 95%.

That is where I have it. DC+8mil/year+Rosenfels+many needs= No VY.

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 02:18 PM
IIRC, last year early in the draft period people were picking Aaron Rodgers as the possible #1 pick over Alex Smith--Rodgers made Cal overachieve and had a fat completion percentage. As it got closer to the draft the choice between Rodgers and Smith got more muddled, as not too many people in that draft had a need at QB and there were worries with Rodgers size and the whole Tedford thing. Smith got more hype closer to the draft after the workouts and the Wonderlic business and whatnot.

Maybe not the best example, but it was a try off the top of my head.

I'm just saying there is still a lot of hype time between now and then. That, and VY is such an intriguing prospect that he is the sort of non-fungible player that a team might want to particularly get.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 02:23 PM
A lot of the reason why people saw Aaron Rodgers as a favorite to go #1 was because he went to Cal Berkley and was from northern California. I believe he was also a big Niners fan.

I never really liked him. I thought he was really arrogant in the interviews of him that I saw.

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 02:26 PM
I would like to also add that Casserly's rep on the MBas a riverboat gambler is not completely undeserved. He has made a point repeatedly in talking about the draft (not just this year), that they way that he value players is not necessarily the same as what the pundits say. Rightly or wrongly, he prides himself for seeing things that others do not necessarily see. And he was behind the whole Ricky Williams blockbuster trade.

He's had his knees cut out from him some this year, so a bizarre move with the first pick is not likely, but what is considered a "Godfather" trade to him isn't necessarily what it would be for others.

In other words, nothing would surprise me in this draft.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 02:30 PM
The difference this year is that Casserly has to consult his decisions with Kubiak, Reeves, and McNair.

thunderkyss
03-22-2006, 02:40 PM
Everyone knows that the Texans aren't taking Vince Young. Well I shouldn't say everyone, because there are still the few delusional fans that believe we will, but besides them everyone knows that he isn't going to the Texans. If we were going to draft Vince Young we wouldn't have extended David Carr to a 3 year contract and given him an $8 million signing bonus. He would have been either transitioned tagged, franchise tagged, or signed to a 2 year extension with a $5 million bonus. We also have Kubiak talking about how much he loves Carr, we know that Reeves loves Carr, we know that the Texans went to several talent scouts across the league who all said that Carr was not the problem. Not to mention all of the subtle and overt statements from Casserly, Kubiak, and various other team sources that imply that we will be drafting Reggie Bush.
We were implying that we would be drafting Reggie before Kubiak even interviewed for the job...... it's just a cowinkydink, that hasn't changed even though we were pretty solid at the RB position.... Signing David Carr to a 2 year extension instead of a 3 year extension is almost as bad as franchising Drew Brees......... we'd be forced to try to trade David in the second year... 3 year contract, while we can trade him in his second year, we might want to keep him as a backup while Vince starts in year two..... heck Vince might get hurt...... Then we'll still have year three to trade him.

It's just a guess, but I doubt Carr is the only QB Kubiak, Reeves, Casserly, and possibly Bob Mcnair is in love with.

His pro day will have little effect on his draft status. If he throws well then he will remain a top 10 pick most likely going to the Raiders at 7. If he throws poorly, he will probably fall to the Cardinals at 10. If he has a terrible pro day (which never happens), he might fall a few spots lower. He will probably have a Big Ben type fall rather than an Aaron Rodgers lead balloon fall.

There are about half a dozen things the Texans brass can say after a great Workout, that will shoot Vince's stock up.

But if you look at the projections before the Rose Bowl, this is the area where he was projected to be drafted anyways. That is why it isn't really even a fall. It's not like he had been the consensus top pick and has dropped. He was originally a top 10 pick, after the Rose Bowl the hype machine was firing on all cylinders and he rose to a top 3 pick, and then reality set in and emotions cooled and he returned back to where he should be. He had a momentary spike, but returned to where he should be.

Like in most situations, emotion produces short term results, but logic wins out in the long run.
The objective of the salesman is to play on those emotions, and guide the prospect into making a decision the prospect believes is beneficial to them.

That being said, Vince could eventually turn out to be the best QB of this years draft class. But so could Matt Leinart, so could Jay Cutler, so could Brody Croyle, so could Omar Jacobs, and every other QB in this draft class.

If I were running the show, I would have sent a high profile team to look at Cutler, and lienart also. a team to look at Omar, maybe not as high profile, but I'd be well represented.

The reason why he won't be drafted #1 is because that would require some other team trading up to get him. We have already said that we want a Godfather deal. That would mean that some team would have to give up multiple high draft picks in this years draft and next years (two draft classes deep with talent) for someone who is a risk/high return player. Not only that, but he most likely won't see the field for at least a season or two. In this age of producing results right now or being fired, I don't believe that any coach/gm will give up multiple high draft picks for a player that they may never see play while they are employed.

If you are going to give up that many picks in the next two talent deep drafts, you are going to want to get a player that you are confident will be successful as soon as possible. That is why if any team is going to trade up for a QB, it will be for Leinart.

Again, I'd be out in full force to see Lienart also..... media is going to ask about Bush, and I'll look at Bush, but I'll show lots and lots of interest in Lienart...... and a little at ole Lendale.

You do understand that the more people we are interested in, the more people will be willing to offer us that landmark deal. It will help, if N.O. announces early that they've made a deal with a team believed to be seeking a QB......... Dallas, maybe Denver, Oakland.... etc...

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 02:46 PM
Good post T-Kyss.

thunderkyss
03-22-2006, 03:07 PM
Good post T-Kyss.


Yeah yeah, show me some love, and hit the reputation points....


:redtowel:

tulexan
03-22-2006, 03:38 PM
You are assuming that the Texans actually want to trade the pick. I believe they have no intention of trading it and never have.

All of this "we still don't know who we will take between Vince and Reggie" is coachspeak, gmspeak, ownerspeak, and attempts to appease the Longhorn fanatics. If the Texans were really interested in replacing Carr, we would have heard them talking about Cutler and Leinart as well. But we haven't.

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 03:45 PM
You are assuming that the Texans actually want to trade the pick. I believe they have no intention of trading it and never have.

All of this "we still don't know who we will take between Vince and Reggie" is coachspeak, gmspeak, ownerspeak, and attempts to appease the Longhorn fanatics. If the Texans were really interested in replacing Carr, we would have heard them talking about Cutler and Leinart as well. But we haven't.

Because Cutler and Leinart don't give you much more than Carr gives you--fat college stats and an arm. But you would have to do a do-over.

VY is something different. And if he meets his potential, there are going to be a lot of teams that feel pretty stupid looking at this draft in retrospect. And if doesn't, well then they will be patting themselves on the back.

I don't think the Texans are going to trade the pick because nobody is going to be willing to give up the value for it, but I don't see CC doing his normal draft dance just because of the PR of it. He wants to see what he can get from whomever and have options. But yeah, they are gonna want a lot for the pick and it is not likely they are gonna get it, but you never know.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 03:48 PM
Because Cutler and Leinart don't give you much more than Carr gives you--fat college stats and an arm. But you would have to do a do-over.

VY is something different.


he's from Houston and went to college at UT

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 03:57 PM
he's from Houston and went to college at UT


And he had the highest completion percentage in the regular season out of all the college QBs.

And had more rushing than Reggie Bush or the top two RB picks of last year.

You know, you can make it just a homer thing, or you can recognize that VY's talent is something that is remarkable.

And so as not to offend people who don't like looking at actual facts, I will put this in a link: The Link that VY haters don't like looking at in case it means that we passed on the BPA. (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17246)

I cannot find any player's college careers that are comparable to VYs. That is what makes him different. Be smug about that all you want, it just is what it is.

Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 04:19 PM
he's from Houston and went to college at UT

Another remarkable post regarding Vince Young from you chuckm. Congrats.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 04:19 PM
And had more rushing than Reggie Bush or the top two RB picks of last year.

Not disputing the main point of your post, but where did you get this part?

Bush 1740 yds this year, 3169 college total vs. Young 1050 this year, 3127 college total.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 04:27 PM
And he had the highest completion percentage in the regular season out of all the college QBs.

And had more rushing than Reggie Bush or the top two RB picks of last year.

You know, you can make it just a homer thing, or you can recognize that VY's talent is something that is remarkable.

And so as not to offend people who don't like looking at actual facts, I will put this in a link: The Link that VY haters don't like looking at in case it means that we passed on the BPA. (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17246)

I cannot find any player's college careers that are comparable to VYs. That is what makes him different. Be smug about that all you want, it just is what it is.

Texans Chic, you make a bunch of sense. Don't you see by now. No matter what Vince does people in here will find fault with it. Them just flat out dissing his talent will look like fools when it is all said and done. Just keep your peace and know that there are people who agree with you (like myself).

El Amigo Invisible
03-22-2006, 04:41 PM
I just do not see anything that I do not like about the guy.
He should have stayed in college but he wasn't going to learn anything anyway. I think he needs to go back to school and try for a degree,maybe he could just take some grammer lessons and a speech class .Football players have never been known for being thats smart anyway). What's the problem?:stirpot:

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 04:51 PM
And he had the highest completion percentage in the regular season out of all the college QBs.

And had more rushing than Reggie Bush or the top two RB picks of last year.

You know, you can make it just a homer thing, or you can recognize that VY's talent is something that is remarkable.

And so as not to offend people who don't like looking at actual facts, I will put this in a link: The Link that VY haters don't like looking at in case it means that we passed on the BPA. (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17246)

I cannot find any player's college careers that are comparable to VYs. That is what makes him different. Be smug about that all you want, it just is what it is.

well said

Nighthawk
03-22-2006, 05:11 PM
Not disputing the main point of your post, but where did you get this part?

Bush 1740 yds this year, 3169 college total vs. Young 1050 this year, 3127 college total.

Is that VY's total college yards or just rushing? And is that Bush's total rushing or total rushing and catching?

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:11 PM
Young isn't the the highest rated QB in this draft, much less the highest rated player ... the 1 and only reason he gets so much run in this part of the world, is that's he's local ....

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 05:13 PM
Not disputing the main point of your post, but where did you get this part?

Bush 1740 yds this year, 3169 college total vs. Young 1050 this year, 3127 college total.

My bad. This is what I get from relying on memory. I was looking at a bunch of 2004 stats, not 2005.

Thanks for the catch.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 05:13 PM
Is that VY's total college yards or just rushing? And is that Bush's total rushing or total rushing and catching?

That is just Bush's rushing yds against Young's rushing yds. Texans Chick said running so that was what I listed.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 05:14 PM
My bad. This is what I get from relying on memory. I was looking at a bunch of 2004 stats, not 2005.

Thanks for the catch.

No problem. Do you know of any site that lists fumbles for college QB's?

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 05:17 PM
Young isn't the the highest rated QB in this draft, much less the highest rated player ... the 1 and only reason he gets so much run in this part of the world, is that's he's local ....

Yeah, that is why he is getting all the national media attention and have all those NFL team reps at his pro day.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:20 PM
Yeah, that is why he is getting all the national media attention and have all those NFL team reps at his pro day.


true, very true ... and the fact that the translation of his skills from college to the NFL is more questionable than most of the other top QBs.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 05:21 PM
Yeah, that is why he is getting all the national media attention and have all those NFL team reps at his pro day.

He must be confused with other QB's who won a National Championships, Gino Torretta or Jason White.

Frills
03-22-2006, 05:24 PM
He must be confused with other QB's who won a National Championships, Gino Torretta or Jason White.


White never won one at OU...Heuple was the QB in 2000, but point taken he never did anything in the pros...He's not QB coach at OU

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 05:28 PM
White never won one at OU...Heuple was the QB in 2000, but point taken he never did anything in the pros...He's not QB coach at OU

Thank you for correcting me. How about 'dem Sooners?

kbourda
03-22-2006, 05:31 PM
true, very true ... and the fact that the translation of his skills from college to the NFL is more questionable than most of the other top QBs.

Why are his skills "questionable"? Are you of the opinion that he slipped up and got 4,000 yards by accident? Maybe a 1,000 by accident but 4,000! No, I get it, when he got on the field teams just sat on the sideline while the UT offense was there. "Questionable"? Sorry but the only thing questionable thing here is you and the Anti-Vince crowd (you know who you are) spewing your flat out hatred for the man.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:35 PM
Why are his skills "questionable"? Are you of the opinion that he slipped up and got 4,000 yards by accident? Maybe a 1,000 by accident but 4,000! No, I get it, when he got on the field teams just sat on the sideline while the UT offense was there. "Questionable"? Sorry but the only thing questionable thing here is you and the Anti-Vince crowd (you know who you are) spewing your flat out hatred for the man.


there you go again with the h-word ..... do we need to discuss our mortgages again? My questions about Young center around him running out of the shotgun for a huge amount of the time .... his game starts with his legs and that's great in the Big12 ... not sure how it'll play in the NFL ...

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 05:37 PM
there you go again with the h-word ..... do we need to discuss our mortgages again? My questions about Young center around him running out of the shotgun for a huge amount of the time .... his game starts with his legs and that's great in the Big12 ... not sure how it'll play in the NFL ...


this season, his game did not start with his legs.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 05:45 PM
there you go again with the h-word ..... do we need to discuss our mortgages again? My questions about Young center around him running out of the shotgun for a huge amount of the time .... his game starts with his legs and that's great in the Big12 ... not sure how it'll play in the NFL ...

What are you talking about? How can a person pass for over 3,000 yards by his game starting with his legs? His legs are a weapon. Everybody knows that. But that is part of his game.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:51 PM
What are you talking about? How can a person pass for over 3,000 yards by his game starting with his legs? His legs are a weapon. Everybody knows that. But that is part of his game.


common ground, common ground, ...... it's a beautiful thing ....

I could give a crap what his Wonderlic, 40 time, bench press, blah blah blah are ...


my concern is that he ran a very simple offense and was in many games a "man among boys" .... in the NFL his legs will be negated to a degree and he'll have everything that the best defensive minds in the world can conceive thrown his way ...

my take on this doesn't put me on an island, neither does yours ... we both have plenty of company .... I guess we'll see how the NFL feels about it next month .... I haven't a clue how it'll come out

Nighthawk
03-22-2006, 05:58 PM
Apparently the offense wasn't so simple as VY detractors imagine. This is an interesting interview about VY in any case. Clears up some of the usual complaints, half-truths, misunderstandings.

http://www.gotitans.com/artman/publish/article_001362.shtml

chuckm
03-22-2006, 06:06 PM
Apparently the offense wasn't so simple as VY detractors imagine. This is an interesting interview about VY in any case. Clears up some of the usual complaints, half-truths, misunderstandings.

http://www.gotitans.com/artman/publish/article_001362.shtml


http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review40.html


The Texas coaches tried to change Vince into more of the prototype quarterback with poor results until midway in the 2004 campaign when they accepted Young's plea to let Vince be Vince. They switched to a read option offense where Young always had the choice to tuck and run. He hasn't lost a game since. To succeed with Young, any offensive coordinator will need to let Vince be Vince rather than attempting to change him into Donovan McNabb or Tom Brady.

Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 06:07 PM
Again, that Bob McNair was down there in person to watch Vince perform speaks volumes.

Nighthawk
03-22-2006, 07:26 PM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review40.html


The Texas coaches tried to change Vince into more of the prototype quarterback with poor results until midway in the 2004 campaign when they accepted Young's plea to let Vince be Vince. They switched to a read option offense where Young always had the choice to tuck and run. He hasn't lost a game since. To succeed with Young, any offensive coordinator will need to let Vince be Vince rather than attempting to change him into Donovan McNabb or Tom Brady.

Sorry I was trying to provide some information you might not have. If you prefer the opinion of the HPF.com guy, have at it.

If I were saying what you're saying in a less biased way I might say the OC will want to take advantage of Vince's extraordinary talents, or maybe, of Vince's talents beyond the usual QB talents.

dirty steve
03-22-2006, 07:41 PM
And he had the highest completion percentage in the regular season out of all the college QBs.

And had more rushing than Reggie Bush or the top two RB picks of last year.

You know, you can make it just a homer thing, or you can recognize that VY's talent is something that is remarkable.

And so as not to offend people who don't like looking at actual facts, I will put this in a link: The Link that VY haters don't like looking at in case it means that we passed on the BPA. (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17246)

I cannot find any player's college careers that are comparable to VYs. That is what makes him different. Be smug about that all you want, it just is what it is.

wow, another person in the Texans front office that posts on this message board, i am glad you have broken away from VY's pro day long enough to grace our presence and tell us what kubes and CC are thinking.

i have never said that VY was an other-worldly talent, and i'll look at that thread all day and can still have the same opinion, that ferguson is the better fit for this team. not a vince hater-it's my opinion.

jerek
03-22-2006, 07:53 PM
Apparently the offense wasn't so simple as VY detractors imagine. This is an interesting interview about VY in any case. Clears up some of the usual complaints, half-truths, misunderstandings.

http://www.gotitans.com/artman/publish/article_001362.shtml

It clears up some of the writer's ___. Virtually everything she is asked about consists of opinion, which either you agree with or don't. In my case, still not so much.

Better stop myself before I get labeled a "hater" again.

And as far as the "dumbed down" offense (stop reading if you are already preparing your whining rant about my obvious bias) ... of course the point is to use Vince for Vince. Why put the guy in a pocket-only playbook when he obviously can run, even in the NFL? You'd be stupid to do it. There is nothing wrong with Mack Brown winning game after game letting Vince play whatever offense is going to get the job done. If running flea-flickers every play was what got the job done, then run flea-flickers every play. If Vince is a great athlete who can make big plays with his legs, then let him makes big plays with his legs. That is winning, and any OC worth his salt would know and understand that.

The question is - if it is even possible to address on this board any more without being labeled a "hater" - is whether or not Vince can do some of the things he did so successfully (and easily, for that matter) in the NFL. Defenses will be much more disciplined, coordinated, faster, and will take better pursuit angles. Questions of his management, which can have a dramatic impact on his career, since even Vince Young will leave the clubhouse and deal with things like signing contracts negotiated by someone other than his divine behind. These are the questions that I am asking, and apparently, others with me.

There is no denying Vince can be great. Pretending that there isn't a chance he won't be is just as stupid as these great ignorances the "VY set" (grouped together for convenience) accuse us "homers" of.

thunderkyss
03-22-2006, 08:00 PM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review40.html


The Texas coaches tried to change Vince into more of the prototype quarterback with poor results until midway in the 2004 campaign when they accepted Young's plea to let Vince be Vince. They switched to a read option offense where Young always had the choice to tuck and run. He hasn't lost a game since. To succeed with Young, any offensive coordinator will need to let Vince be Vince rather than attempting to change him into Donovan McNabb or Tom Brady.

So if we stick David Carr in that simple offense, we can get a winning season?? Brilliant...... forget Young, let's put Carr in a simpler system.


Yeah, that's the ticket.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 08:44 PM
So if we stick David Carr in that simple offense, we can get a winning season?? Brilliant...... forget Young, let's put Carr in a simpler system.


Yeah, that's the ticket.


how does Carr always sneak his way into your posts about Young?

thunderkyss
03-22-2006, 08:46 PM
how does Carr always sneak his way into your posts about Young?


Your sig, gets me thinking about him.

Buffi2
03-22-2006, 08:53 PM
I just heard McNair on Channel 13 and he said about Young, in a nutshell, that one also had to look at how a person would fit into your organization, with the current players and coaches, etc. I looked on the channel 13 website, but couldn't find that quote.

dirty steve
03-22-2006, 09:02 PM
Yeah, that is why he is getting all the national media attention and have all those NFL team reps at his pro day.

i guess said franchises weren't there to see david thomas, rod wright, jon scott, etc...good call.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 09:08 PM
i guess said franchises weren't there to see david thomas, rod wright, jon scott, etc...good call.

You must be mistaken. It wasn't the Texas pro day, it was the Vince Young pro day.

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 09:13 PM
wow, another person in the Texans front office that posts on this message board, i am glad you have broken away from VY's pro day long enough to grace our presence and tell us what kubes and CC are thinking.

Whoa bigboy, why's your sarcastometer set on high in my general direction? You must have me mistaken for somebody else. I wish I had some contact with the front office because I'd have better PSLs. I've never stated what kubes and CC are thinking, and have repeatedly stated that I do not think they will choose VY, believe that they will choose Bush, but at the end of the day, you don't know until the draft actually happens.

My post was merely in response to someone who said that the only reason why VY is in the discussion is because he is from Houston and went to Texas. My own pov is that he is in the national discussion because he has done some pretty remarkable things, things that I've never seen a QB of his size do, and the stats say the same thing.


i have never said that VY was an other-worldly talent, and i'll look at that thread all day and can still have the same opinion, that ferguson is the better fit for this team. not a vince hater-it's my opinion.

I can understand the reasoning of wanting D'Brick instead of VY for the Texans even though for me personally, would never pick D'Brick #1 in this draft. If they happen to do that, or trade down and get him, I will be his biggest supporter. That being said, I've given stats that demonstrate that VY's stats are in historical elite college QB territory and has done stuff that other college QBs could only dream of, and in response all you offered me was a blast of sarcasm and nuthin.

You know, it is completely OK to think that all of these elite guys in the draft are pretty darned good without feeling the need to blast them in order to support your guy. If you think other people are overhyping a particular individual, it is quite possible to make your point using facts and logic and reasoning without exaggerating the other direction.

Some of my favorite posters to read on the MB are people whose opinion on the draft and the players are different than mine and make their opinion whilst showing how they came to that conclusion.

I am not a stat freak by any stretch of the imagination, but I looked up the comparison information on VY and on Bush to various names that people kept carelessly throwing around as comparisons. Because I wanted to know if my eyes were tricking me. I wanted to have a better truth than some guy saying that VY was like this, or Bush was like that. Stats can't tell a whole story but they are a start.

After I did that, I realized that a lot of those comparisons were not supportable statistically. (Such as VY=Vick or VY=Akili Smith--such garbage).

My eyes told me that VY and Bush were not like other players I have seen, and I looked up stats for the comparisons, and the stats were telling me the same thing. And I was actually LOOKING for someone to come up with a grand argument for why VY isn't gonna work in the NFL, and haven't really seen a good argument. Because I am pretty darned sure the Texans aren't gonna take him, and wanted to know how bummed I should be if one of my most hated teams took him.

So there you have it. I'm in the "please Texans do your durned homework and make a good decision cuz I don't do film and prodays camp." I don't know what is the best decision, but I am always looking for reasons to be happy with and understand the decisions that they have made. I have a lot of empathy for the folks in the front office and coaching staff because they work really hard at doing something that you can work really hard at doing and still fail.

Sorry about the long response but I really am searching for truth amidst the posturing and rhetoric. I don't feel comfortable with the hyperbole in any direction, but if it can be supported by the facts as humans can know them, well then, bring it on.

:redtowel:

sprtsfanatic
03-22-2006, 09:17 PM
and lets not forget who's defense young did that damage against...it was a former NFL coach with a team stacked with future NFL players...so I think the arguement about young not being able to do anything vs NFL teams is quite bogus imo.

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 09:22 PM
i guess said franchises weren't there to see david thomas, rod wright, jon scott, etc...good call.

C'mon now, you are not being reasonable.

Read the write up on the day: http://nfl.com/draft/story/9329030. I like these other guys OK, but the other guys were lagniappe for the main course of VY. You don't get that sort of attendance unless VY is finally going to throw.

El Amigo Invisible
03-22-2006, 10:09 PM
Amen Brother! Preach on! I like Carr Bomber too ! Maybe they could learn something from each other.:pigfly:
I just thought it was a gimme and we would help ourselves through the FA market.

Tale Gator
03-23-2006, 08:50 AM
Reactions from the Texans' entourage:
__________

"One of the things that impresses me about him is the way his teammates gravitate to him, which I think is important for a player at that position," Kubiak said.

"He did a great job," Texans coach Gary Kubiak said. "I was real impressed. He showed a very strong arm, and he was accurate on the move. He looked like he could have thrown all day. He made every throw. He did everything you could ask a guy to do in this situation."

"I was impressed, but I wasn't surprised because we already knew Vince was a great athlete," Texans owner Bob McNair said. "He showed a super arm. He was really accurate. He put the ball on the numbers. He was accurate throwing on the run, and he didn't have to break stride. It was a great performance."

"Rhome did a good job with him, which I fully expected him to do," Texans general manager Charley Casserly said. "He threw the ball well, and his footwork was good."

Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3742439.html)

BigBull17
03-23-2006, 09:04 AM
It clears up some of the writer's ___. Virtually everything she is asked about consists of opinion, which either you agree with or don't. In my case, still not so much.

Better stop myself before I get labeled a "hater" again.

And as far as the "dumbed down" offense (stop reading if you are already preparing your whining rant about my obvious bias) ... of course the point is to use Vince for Vince. Why put the guy in a pocket-only playbook when he obviously can run, even in the NFL? You'd be stupid to do it. There is nothing wrong with Mack Brown winning game after game letting Vince play whatever offense is going to get the job done. If running flea-flickers every play was what got the job done, then run flea-flickers every play. If Vince is a great athlete who can make big plays with his legs, then let him makes big plays with his legs. That is winning, and any OC worth his salt would know and understand that.

The question is - if it is even possible to address on this board any more without being labeled a "hater" - is whether or not Vince can do some of the things he did so successfully (and easily, for that matter) in the NFL. Defenses will be much more disciplined, coordinated, faster, and will take better pursuit angles. Questions of his management, which can have a dramatic impact on his career, since even Vince Young will leave the clubhouse and deal with things like signing contracts negotiated by someone other than his divine behind. These are the questions that I am asking, and apparently, others with me.

There is no denying Vince can be great. Pretending that there isn't a chance he won't be is just as stupid as these great ignorances the "VY set" (grouped together for convenience) accuse us "homers" of.

You took it to the hole and slammed it home. Great post.

Mike Kerns
03-23-2006, 07:18 PM
I wish him the best, wherever he may land.

thunderkyss
03-23-2006, 08:33 PM
It clears up some of the writer's ___. Virtually everything she is asked about consists of opinion, which either you agree with or don't. In my case, still not so much.
You are correct...... the interview was prefaced with an explanation of why her opinion is credible... I don't think they were good reason, but they were what they were. Kubiak has expressed his opinion of David Carr.... granted it should hold more weight than hers, but I can understand with folks disagreeing with him... We all have experiences that we base our judgement of players on. You have your opinion of Milford Brown, Denny Green has his.... is his more correct than yours?? I doubt it, you sound like you know what you are talking about. But he's privy to information that you're not, same as the person interviewed in this article. He has access to Milford, you(I'm assuming does not). She's been face to face with Vince, his teammates, his coaches.... again, I assume you have not.


Better stop myself before I get labeled a "hater" again.
ONce a Hater, always a hater.

And as far as the "dumbed down" offense (stop reading if you are already preparing your whining rant about my obvious bias) ... of course the point is to use Vince for Vince. Why put the guy in a pocket-only playbook when he obviously can run, even in the NFL? You'd be stupid to do it. There is nothing wrong with Mack Brown winning game after game letting Vince play whatever offense is going to get the job done. If running flea-flickers every play was what got the job done, then run flea-flickers every play. If Vince is a great athlete who can make big plays with his legs, then let him makes big plays with his legs. That is winning, and any OC worth his salt would know and understand that. I don't even have salt, so I'll go anyway. I've said before(on this MB) that if we are going to put together an Offense to "let Vince be Vince", then I'd rather not draft him. I don't care how many NFC championship games the Falcons get to. If it were that simple in the NFL, more folks would be doing it. This is a team game, and every piece of that team has a job. For that team to be successful, each part has to do that job. QBs have to be QBs. LTs have to be LTs.. Safeties have to be Safeties, and Running Backs need to be Running Backs...
The offensive production Vince gets out of his legs do not impress me, as much as what that opens up. What impressed me most about Vince, is the improvement he's made in his game from the 2004 RoseBowl, to the 2005 RoseBowl. No one expected him to repeat what he did in 2004, much less show marked improvement. He took it upon himself to work on his game. And he did very well.
My assessment of Vince, is that he is on route to being like McNabb, only better. He'll be starting his NFL career from a stage that is more advanced than where McNabb started his. He also won't be the offense in Houston, where McNabb still has no stars around him........... oh yeah, I guess you can count Westbrook.... I guess.

Edit: One more thing. If our team was polished, and had more veterans..... I wouldn't be looking at Vince Young. I might be more inclined to go with Matt Lienart. But with our Young Offensive line, we are better off with more mobile/athletic QBs..... Until we've got a line, where we've got that one or two players that can compensate for the younger/poorer players, we need someone who can help the offensive line, by avoiding sacks, and keeping plays alive. When the front 5 have learned to play their positions, and are able to protect their qB, you don't need a pocket passer.....
This is the same argument I used for Quincy in Dallas. after 2003, the Cowboys were in no position to draft a qB, and there were no young prospects available in FA you could consider to be the future. Quincy would have bought them time to allow the OL to learn to work together, and still give them an opportunity to win games. The Only difference here, is that Vince I think has the potential to be ther future, where I didn't see that in Q

The question is - if it is even possible to address on this board any more without being labeled a "hater" - is whether or not Vince can do some of the things he did so successfully (and easily, for that matter) in the NFL. Defenses will be much more disciplined, coordinated, faster, and will take better pursuit angles. Questions of his management, which can have a dramatic impact on his career, since even Vince Young will leave the clubhouse and deal with things like signing contracts negotiated by someone other than his divine behind. These are the questions that I am asking, and apparently, others with me. & this is why you are a hater. Yes, these are legitamate questions. Yet they only apply to a QB, and then only to Vince. Matt's game will transfer over, no problem. Doesn't matter that NFL Corners are faster (recovery speed) than the fastest Corner's he's seen. LBs are smarter, craftier, and more athletic....... better in coverage than before, and there are very few Offensive lines in the league today that will give him the protection he's accustomed to.

All those angles, better tackling, better pursuit, and plain ol coverage is going to affect Reggies Game just as much, maybe even more.... if his break away speed is his ticket to fame, it doesn't even come into play, till he gets behind the defense..... something that is also not as easy to do in the NFL.

There is no denying Vince can be great. Pretending that there isn't a chance he won't be is just as stupid as these great ignorances the "VY set" (grouped together for convenience) accuse us "homers" of.
There are very few of us on this MB, that would trade/cut Carr right away. We understand we still need him next year.

YoungnotBush
03-23-2006, 09:06 PM
[QUOTE=tulexan]Everyone knows that the Texans aren't taking Vince Young. Well I shouldn't say everyone, because there are still the few delusional fans that believe we will, but besides them everyone knows that he isn't going to the Texans. If we were going to draft Vince Young we wouldn't have extended David Carr to a 3 year contract and given him an $8 million signing bonus. He would have been either transitioned tagged, franchise tagged, or signed to a 2 year extension with a $5 million bonus. We also have Kubiak talking about how much he loves Carr, we know that Reeves loves Carr, we know that the Texans went to several talent scouts across the league who all said that Carr was not the problem. Not to mention all of the subtle and overt statements from Casserly, Kubiak, and various other team sources that imply that we will be drafting Reggie Bush.



Could it not be possible that the Texans want everyone to think they are taking Bush, because he would bring the most trade offers? Is that not even a possibility?

If there was one player in this draft that could command the most trade value, it would be Bush, and if I was picking first that is who I would want the rest of the world to think I was picking, regardless of who I was really targeting.

If they really are targeting VY, then the way everything is going is the perfect scenario, considering they could trade down to the 10 or 11 pick to get him at this point.

Texans_Chick
03-23-2006, 09:15 PM
Could it not be possible that the Texans want everyone to think they are taking Bush, because he would bring the most trade offers? Is that not even a possibility?

If there was one player in this draft that could command the most trade value, it would be Bush, and if I was picking first that is who I would want the rest of the world to think I was picking, regardless of who I was really targeting.

If they really are targeting VY, then the way everything is going is the perfect scenario, considering they could trade down to the 10 or 11 pick to get him at this point.



Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.
Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You've made your decision then?
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're just stalling now.
Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!
Man in Black: Then make your choice.
Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?
Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.
Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]
Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha -
Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]
Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.
Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

Classic. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/quotes)

kcwilson
03-23-2006, 10:35 PM
I think the title of the thread was mis-labeled... it ought to read

"Texans expressing fake interest in person from the community and building him up as a potential pick in order to increase the trade value of the top draft pick because we are obviously taking Bush and therefore all the QB needy teams won't trade with us if they know that they can have the Saints spot for less because we aren't taking a QB."

MorKnolle
03-23-2006, 10:54 PM
Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.
Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You've made your decision then?
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're just stalling now.
Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!
Man in Black: Then make your choice.
Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?
Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.
Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]
Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha -
Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]
Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.
Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

Classic. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/quotes)

Inconceivable

Long-Spurs-Texan
03-24-2006, 09:24 AM
You speak the truth. Much respect.

You are correct...... the interview was prefaced with an explanation of why her opinion is credible... I don't think they were good reason, but they were what they were. Kubiak has expressed his opinion of David Carr.... granted it should hold more weight than hers, but I can understand with folks disagreeing with him... We all have experiences that we base our judgement of players on. You have your opinion of Milford Brown, Denny Green has his.... is his more correct than yours?? I doubt it, you sound like you know what you are talking about. But he's privy to information that you're not, same as the person interviewed in this article. He has access to Milford, you(I'm assuming does not). She's been face to face with Vince, his teammates, his coaches.... again, I assume you have not.


ONce a Hater, always a hater.
I don't even have salt, so I'll go anyway. I've said before(on this MB) that if we are going to put together an Offense to "let Vince be Vince", then I'd rather not draft him. I don't care how many NFC championship games the Falcons get to. If it were that simple in the NFL, more folks would be doing it. This is a team game, and every piece of that team has a job. For that team to be successful, each part has to do that job. QBs have to be QBs. LTs have to be LTs.. Safeties have to be Safeties, and Running Backs need to be Running Backs...
The offensive production Vince gets out of his legs do not impress me, as much as what that opens up. What impressed me most about Vince, is the improvement he's made in his game from the 2004 RoseBowl, to the 2005 RoseBowl. No one expected him to repeat what he did in 2004, much less show marked improvement. He took it upon himself to work on his game. And he did very well.
My assessment of Vince, is that he is on route to being like McNabb, only better. He'll be starting his NFL career from a stage that is more advanced than where McNabb started his. He also won't be the offense in Houston, where McNabb still has no stars around him........... oh yeah, I guess you can count Westbrook.... I guess.

Edit: One more thing. If our team was polished, and had more veterans..... I wouldn't be looking at Vince Young. I might be more inclined to go with Matt Lienart. But with our Young Offensive line, we are better off with more mobile/athletic QBs..... Until we've got a line, where we've got that one or two players that can compensate for the younger/poorer players, we need someone who can help the offensive line, by avoiding sacks, and keeping plays alive. When the front 5 have learned to play their positions, and are able to protect their qB, you don't need a pocket passer.....
This is the same argument I used for Quincy in Dallas. after 2003, the Cowboys were in no position to draft a qB, and there were no young prospects available in FA you could consider to be the future. Quincy would have bought them time to allow the OL to learn to work together, and still give them an opportunity to win games. The Only difference here, is that Vince I think has the potential to be ther future, where I didn't see that in Q
& this is why you are a hater. Yes, these are legitamate questions. Yet they only apply to a QB, and then only to Vince. Matt's game will transfer over, no problem. Doesn't matter that NFL Corners are faster (recovery speed) than the fastest Corner's he's seen. LBs are smarter, craftier, and more athletic....... better in coverage than before, and there are very few Offensive lines in the league today that will give him the protection he's accustomed to.

All those angles, better tackling, better pursuit, and plain ol coverage is going to affect Reggies Game just as much, maybe even more.... if his break away speed is his ticket to fame, it doesn't even come into play, till he gets behind the defense..... something that is also not as easy to do in the NFL.

There are very few of us on this MB, that would trade/cut Carr right away. We understand we still need him next year.

jerek
03-24-2006, 11:15 AM
You are correct...... the interview was prefaced with an explanation of why her opinion is credible... I don't think they were good reason, but they were what they were. Kubiak has expressed his opinion of David Carr.... granted it should hold more weight than hers, but I can understand with folks disagreeing with him... We all have experiences that we base our judgement of players on. You have your opinion of Milford Brown, Denny Green has his.... is his more correct than yours?? I doubt it, you sound like you know what you are talking about. But he's privy to information that you're not, same as the person interviewed in this article. He has access to Milford, you(I'm assuming does not). She's been face to face with Vince, his teammates, his coaches.... again, I assume you have not.

You are making a big deal out of a little thing here. The article didn't go into great detail about anything for which being "face to face" with Vince Young is relevant. I don't have to meet the guy to watch him run an entire playbook out of shotgun, run options, throw the occasionally awkward floaters, play behind an all-world line, or watch defenses take ridiculously awkward pursuit angles and 170 lb. froshes slip on the tackle.

If we were talking about, would I want Vince Young to date my daughter? ... then maybe the writer can provide me a character reference that I lack. As far as Vince having this "it" and casting a spell over the writer and an unhealthy percentage of this board ... not relevant where I'm standing, my friend. Now, has she watched more of Vince's tape/games? Probably so. Do I trust her an Austin writer to give me the "unslanted" view of Vince Young? Probably not.

ONce a Hater, always a hater.
I don't even have salt, so I'll go anyway. I've said before(on this MB) that if we are going to put together an Offense to "let Vince be Vince", then I'd rather not draft him. I don't care how many NFC championship games the Falcons get to. If it were that simple in the NFL, more folks would be doing it. This is a team game, and every piece of that team has a job. For that team to be successful, each part has to do that job. QBs have to be QBs. LTs have to be LTs.. Safeties have to be Safeties, and Running Backs need to be Running Backs...
The offensive production Vince gets out of his legs do not impress me, as much as what that opens up. What impressed me most about Vince, is the improvement he's made in his game from the 2004 RoseBowl, to the 2005 RoseBowl. No one expected him to repeat what he did in 2004, much less show marked improvement. He took it upon himself to work on his game. And he did very well.
My assessment of Vince, is that he is on route to being like McNabb, only better. He'll be starting his NFL career from a stage that is more advanced than where McNabb started his. He also won't be the offense in Houston, where McNabb still has no stars around him........... oh yeah, I guess you can count Westbrook.... I guess.

I can agree with all of that.

Edit: One more thing. If our team was polished, and had more veterans..... I wouldn't be looking at Vince Young. I might be more inclined to go with Matt Lienart. But with our Young Offensive line, we are better off with more mobile/athletic QBs..... Until we've got a line, where we've got that one or two players that can compensate for the younger/poorer players, we need someone who can help the offensive line, by avoiding sacks, and keeping plays alive. When the front 5 have learned to play their positions, and are able to protect their qB, you don't need a pocket passer.....
This is the same argument I used for Quincy in Dallas. after 2003, the Cowboys were in no position to draft a qB, and there were no young prospects available in FA you could consider to be the future. Quincy would have bought them time to allow the OL to learn to work together, and still give them an opportunity to win games. The Only difference here, is that Vince I think has the potential to be ther future, where I didn't see that in Q


I can understand and empathize with this take. That said, we have DC, and we just signed him to a hefty chunk of change. I believe Kubes/Sherman are going to make our line better, install a real offense (you cannot in any seriousness tell me that Vince would have played any better for Pendry), and that David Carr is going to shine in that offense, or at least play well enough to win games. That fact, plus our multitude of glaring holes, indicates that we simply do not have the luxury of pissing away 55M and our first round pick on a position that we are already solid in. That more than anything else is what drives my decision to pass on Young.

& this is why you are a hater. Yes, these are legitamate questions. Yet they only apply to a QB, and then only to Vince. Matt's game will transfer over, no problem. Doesn't matter that NFL Corners are faster (recovery speed) than the fastest Corner's he's seen. LBs are smarter, craftier, and more athletic....... better in coverage than before, and there are very few Offensive lines in the league today that will give him the protection he's accustomed to.

No one is kicking up an eternal ****storm about the invincible Matt Leinart. No one has even mentioned his name as a legitimate candidate. If we are so desperate to replace our QB, why not Leinart or Cutler? Why not talk about Cutler's rocket arm or Leinart's poise and ridiculous winning tradition. Yes, USC's offense was heralded as one of the best of all time, but it's not as if UT's wasn't good. UT had one of the very best recruiting classes and was a very strong offensive unit, so do not pretend as if there is some large difference between Leinart's supporting cast and Vince's. IMO, Mack Brown outcoached Carroll, straight up, and that game was only won by a whole 3 points.

Most of the cries for Vince on this board and in this community (and they are substantially here and not elsewhere: you will not hear much of Vince outside of this half of the state) are personal player/fan/UT agendas and have little to do with 'the best quarterback for the Texans.' Young is not by any stretch the consensus BPA.

All those angles, better tackling, better pursuit, and plain ol coverage is going to affect Reggies Game just as much, maybe even more.... if his break away speed is his ticket to fame, it doesn't even come into play, till he gets behind the defense..... something that is also not as easy to do in the NFL.

When did I disagree with this? Okay, I know the draft-Reggie crowd has its own contingent of REGGIE IS GOD!!!1, but you are getting lost here.

Conclusion: we do not draft Young because we are already solid at QB, we don't have 55M in free cap for a project QB, and because we have too many other holes to fill to become a winning team. Disagree with if you want, but understand my argument for what it is.

jerek
03-24-2006, 11:53 AM
And I should tag on to the end of that ... fan agendas are well and good. If you like Vince and just want to see him a Texan, cool. I am not going to argue you if that is simply your take. Guys like kbhourda said it earlier: they just like Vince and they like the Houston Texans and would love to see the two combined and want to see him continue his career in Houston and they enjoy watching him play. To which I say:

Fine, that is well and good. You'll get no argument from me.

Just don't be the "fan with the agenda" and talk about Vince's skill sets and what he is as a player and how that makes him such and such and expect that no one could or will possibly contest the opinions.

:twocents:

threetoedpete
03-24-2006, 02:58 PM
Again, that Bob McNair was down there in person to watch Vince perform speaks volumes.
Yeah it says he wants some fool to part with two ones and two twoes for the one pick....so far no takers. THAT speaks volumns in my book on RB and VY.

el toro
03-24-2006, 03:10 PM
Of course the Texans have to pretend to have some interest in Young. It's good for trying to scare up a motherlode trade offer and it's also needed since the team is undoubtedly being hounded locally to take Young.

MorKnolle
03-24-2006, 07:13 PM
It looks as if Houston is trying to trade down the #1 to take Young and also gain an extra pick. They have not been seeking any of the top back-up QB's in the off-season (look at who they picked up Sage ???), and Houston already has a proven starting RB with DD. I do not think they are 100% on David Carr and his lack of leadership skills. The UT pro day just solidified that Vince Young already has more talent than anyone else in the draft. He is leaps and bounds ahead of David Carr, and Coach K runs an offense that is built for a QB who can throw on the run which Vince does very well. Bush will run a mid 4.55 or maybe a 4.48 and it will be the end of his hype. If you watch the Game against Texas and Notre Dame you could see Linebackers chasing him down with ease. When USC played teams with talent his speed looked much slower than his break away runs against Fresno, yea o.k. he really did something there. He hits the hole really well but he also played on a team where everything was really balanced as far as talent so no team could really focus on just stopping bush do to the fact that USC had such great receivers on offense. Bush will not have this super fast time that people are expecting, and the fact that he was 5'10 1/2 203 at the combine leave much skepticism about his ability to stay healthy in the NFL.

Nothing that the Texans are doing looks like they are trying to trade down to draft Vince. The UT pro day did little to advance Vince into being considered as the top one or even two QBs in this draft, let alone the best overall player. Bush will run a 4.55? Bush is clearly faster than that. Another ridiculous post and a last-ditch effort to stir up some hope for Vince becoming a Texan.

As for the previous comment on McNair being at Vince's pro day, why wouldn't he go when it's a three hour drive away and UT always runs the best pro day in terms of taking care of the scouts and whoever else comes and attends, and as McNair said when interviewed about it "there are a lot of fine prospects here that we want to check out" (I realize this part of the interview conveniently got left off many reports in Houston, but ESPN had it).

axman40
03-24-2006, 07:29 PM
As for the previous comment on McNair being at Vince's pro day, why wouldn't he go when it's a three hour drive away and UT always runs the best pro day in terms of taking care of the scouts and whoever else comes and attends, and as McNair said when interviewed about it "there are a lot of fine prospects here that we want to check out" .

That is so true I hear the strip clubs had to call in extra dancers!
:spy:

thunderkyss
03-24-2006, 07:43 PM
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha -
Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]

Classic. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/quotes)

This is my bestest favoritest movie of all time.....

But Pirates of the Carribean is catching up.

Tale Gator
03-24-2006, 08:08 PM
But Pirates of the Carribean

Haven't seen that one yet...

don't think I will either. :shocked





:)

thunderkyss
03-24-2006, 08:25 PM
I can understand and empathize with this take. That said, we have DC, and we just signed him to a hefty chunk of change. I believe Kubes/Sherman are going to make our line better, install a real offense (you cannot in any seriousness tell me that Vince would have played any better for Pendry), and that David Carr is going to shine in that offense, or at least play well enough to win games. That fact, plus our multitude of glaring holes, indicates that we simply do not have the luxury of pissing away 55M and our first round pick on a position that we are already solid in. That more than anything else is what drives my decision to pass on Young.This is what makes you a hater.
I have not once seen you so vehemetly(sp) argue against Reggie Bush, even though you say you think we should trade down.... This is the same argument you should use against Reggie... the exact same thing.

You can not tell me you aren't impressed in the least, that Domanick has accomplished the things he has accomplished in Houston. His first three years are better than Tiki's, Alexander's, Larry Johnsons, You name it....(not LT, and his numbers are only comparable to Edge's.).

But our line is better at run blocking than they are in pass blocking....... why do you say that, because we have more rushing yards, and sacks??? 20 of which we can blame on Carr, which brings the sacks given up by the line to 48...... Tom Brady won a superbowl while getting sacked 41 times as a rookie.


Stacey Mack, Jonathan Wells, James Allen....... how good did the Offensive line look when they were in the back field??



No one is kicking up an eternal ****storm about the invincible Matt Leinart. No one has even mentioned his name as a legitimate candidate. If we are so desperate to replace our QB, why not Leinart or Cutler? Why not talk about Cutler's rocket arm or Leinart's poise and ridiculous winning tradition. Yes, USC's offense was heralded as one of the best of all time, but it's not as if UT's wasn't good. UT had one of the very best recruiting classes and was a very strong offensive unit, so do not pretend as if there is some large difference between Leinart's supporting cast and Vince's. IMO, Mack Brown outcoached Carroll, straight up, and that game was only won by a whole 3 points.So.... when was the last time you got on the Reggie Bush crowd about not having lighting up a ****storm over D'Angelo, Moroney, Addai........ etc.... etc... Why not tell them to trade down, get an extra pick and fill that desperate Running Back need with a less expensive pick... a safer pick, then use that extra pick to addreww another need??

Conclusion: we do not draft Young because we are already solid at QB, we don't have 55M in free cap for a project QB, and because we have too many other holes to fill to become a winning team. Disagree with if you want, but understand my argument for what it is.
Before free agency started, we were solid at Running back....... DD, Wells, Morency.... we weren't as solid at QB........ Carr...... might be somebody, but so far it doesn't look good....... Banks..... nobody wants him.... can't start on our team, can't be a back up on anyone elses........ Ragone..... management hasn't shown a lot of confidence in him...... hence they've kept Banks for soooo long. because we could afford him??

But this has been your position from the get go....... we don't need a backup that can be a possible starter... we need a washed up never was that will happily stand in till David gets better.....

That's the attitude you have, when you've got an Aikman, a Manning, a McNabb, a Jim Kelly, a Drew Bledsoe........ not if you've got a Jake Plummer, a Bob Griese, a Charlie Batch, or a Jeff Garcia.... until they prove anything, you load up on QB..... $13 million is too much to pay Carr for what we've seen...... no, not the 2-14, not the 2 thousand sacks, not the dropped balls, ints, or the worse offense in the league..... We payed him for running out of bounds with the ball in his hands behind the los, we are paying him for assuming the fetal positions, we are paying him for having no idea where the blitz is coming from. We are paying him for eyeballing one reciever, for running into sacks, for intentional grounding......... we're freak'n red shirting him at $5.25 millin dollars a year.

Kaiser Toro
03-24-2006, 08:33 PM
Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.
Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You've made your decision then?
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're just stalling now.
Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!
Man in Black: Then make your choice.
Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?
Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.
Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]
Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha -
Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]
Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.
Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

Classic. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/quotes)

Have fun stormin' the castle.

thunderkyss
03-24-2006, 08:37 PM
Haven't seen that one yet...

don't think I will either. :shocked





:)


If you liked the Princess Bride, you'll love Pirates of the Carribean......

outofhnd
03-24-2006, 08:38 PM
Needless to say it is all conjecture until its announced by the NFL commissioner on draft day.... Give the we are going to draft this person not this person argument a rest and simply state you hope they draft this player and why... :brickwall: I could care less about who we draft at this point because with our position its going to be a pretty darn good player. Unless we trade our #1 pick for a pair of a Reeboks.

Nighthawk
03-24-2006, 10:01 PM
As for the previous comment on McNair being at Vince's pro day, why wouldn't he go when it's a three hour drive away and UT always runs the best pro day in terms of taking care of the scouts and whoever else comes and attends --

Thanks for the Hippy-Dippy analysis--I am certain McNair has nothing better to do than drive/helicopter to Austin for a catered sandwich.

In fact, I think he was there for the PR point others have mentioned, to hold open in the eyes of other teams the (remote) possibility that we might be interested in VY. And, in fact, I have a suspicion that there remains a remote possibility that we're interested, depending on what comes along in terms of trade offers, etc.

Frankly, I do NOT see how we can take Bush with the #1 pick in the draft, he's simply not worth it. All the hoo-ha about him has died down, and I think he'll put in a respectable but not astonishing pro day performance, but at the end of the day we have greater needs, esp since running back is among our most well-stocked positions.

tulexan
03-24-2006, 10:15 PM
How has the hoo-ha died down with Bush, he hasn't done anything yet since the Rose Bowl. Last thing I heard about him was that he and Matt Leinart really impressed everyone at the combine because of how professional they acted in their interviews and press conferences.

I'll say it again. We have zero interest in Vince Young. The entourage showing up to Austin was there for two reasons. To make it look like we are interested to appease the Longhorn fans and because everyone else was there.

kbourda
03-25-2006, 01:30 AM
I'll say it again. We have zero interest in Vince Young. The entourage showing up to Austin was there for two reasons. To make it look like we are interested to appease the Longhorn fans and because everyone else was there.

You don't say much that I agree with. But with this statement, I couldn't agree with you more. Eventhough I hate to say it, the only way Vince will play in Reliant Stadium is in EA ESPN NFL Football 2007 (Madden).

thunderkyss
03-25-2006, 09:27 AM
How has the hoo-ha died down with Bush, he hasn't done anything yet since the Rose Bowl. Last thing I heard about him was that he and Matt Leinart really impressed everyone at the combine because of how professional they acted in their interviews and press conferences.

I'll say it again. We have zero interest in Vince Young. The entourage showing up to Austin was there for two reasons. To make it look like we are interested to appease the Longhorn fans and because everyone else was there.


Ahh the mighty and all knowing tulexan has spoken......... we can rest at ease now........... thank you oh intelligent, oh all-knowing, oh omni-present one...........


Did you see the Babin thing coming?? Or were you just as clueless about what the Texans were doing then, as you are nowl??

sprtsfanatic
03-25-2006, 10:10 AM
If you liked the Princess Bride, you'll love Pirates of the Carribean......

in your original post you had "but pirates of the carribean...."
so he was stating that he hasnt and doesnt think he will watch "BUTT PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN"...just a play on words and was joking around...trying to bring some humor into a heated discussion thats been going on all off season.:rolleyes:

Tale Gator
03-25-2006, 10:55 AM
in your original post you had "but pirates of the carribean...."
so he was stating that he hasnt and doesnt think he will watch "BUTT PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN"...just a play on words and was joking around

Exactly, just cracking a joke amongst friends. :)

whiskeyrbl
03-25-2006, 08:35 PM
Dude, have you been watching or free agency as of lately. Every thing they are doing is pointing towards trading the pick to #4 to The Jets. The jets are in dire need for a RB and the texans really need a QB. Every one knows the Option to pick up Carr was made to ensure a starting day QB. He will be cut at the end of this season, and Vince will be starting in 2007. We have a great RB, we answered all questions on the defensive front in the free agency. We picked up a less than solid third string QB, and we now have a legit center to lead our OL. All arrows point towards Vince Young at #4. You Bush worshipers are blind. If he runs faster then 4.45 in the 40 it will be a miracle. I don't see why Houston Fans are not puling for Vince. He has heart, he is a great leader, he is clutch, he doesn't puch people out of bounds after plays( Reggie Bush ),and he is by far the greatest athlete in this years draft.
:hairpull: :shocked :listening :thud:

jerek
03-25-2006, 10:39 PM
This is what makes you a hater.
I have not once seen you so vehemetly(sp) argue against Reggie Bush, even though you say you think we should trade down.... This is the same argument you should use against Reggie... the exact same thing.

You can not tell me you aren't impressed in the least, that Domanick has accomplished the things he has accomplished in Houston. His first three years are better than Tiki's, Alexander's, Larry Johnsons, You name it....(not LT, and his numbers are only comparable to Edge's.).

But our line is better at run blocking than they are in pass blocking....... why do you say that, because we have more rushing yards, and sacks??? 20 of which we can blame on Carr, which brings the sacks given up by the line to 48...... Tom Brady won a superbowl while getting sacked 41 times as a rookie.


Stacey Mack, Jonathan Wells, James Allen....... how good did the Offensive line look when they were in the back field??


So.... when was the last time you got on the Reggie Bush crowd about not having lighting up a ****storm over D'Angelo, Moroney, Addai........ etc.... etc... Why not tell them to trade down, get an extra pick and fill that desperate Running Back need with a less expensive pick... a safer pick, then use that extra pick to addreww another need??

Before free agency started, we were solid at Running back....... DD, Wells, Morency.... we weren't as solid at QB........ Carr...... might be somebody, but so far it doesn't look good....... Banks..... nobody wants him.... can't start on our team, can't be a back up on anyone elses........ Ragone..... management hasn't shown a lot of confidence in him...... hence they've kept Banks for soooo long. because we could afford him??

But this has been your position from the get go....... we don't need a backup that can be a possible starter... we need a washed up never was that will happily stand in till David gets better.....

That's the attitude you have, when you've got an Aikman, a Manning, a McNabb, a Jim Kelly, a Drew Bledsoe........ not if you've got a Jake Plummer, a Bob Griese, a Charlie Batch, or a Jeff Garcia.... until they prove anything, you load up on QB..... $13 million is too much to pay Carr for what we've seen...... no, not the 2-14, not the 2 thousand sacks, not the dropped balls, ints, or the worse offense in the league..... We payed him for running out of bounds with the ball in his hands behind the los, we are paying him for assuming the fetal positions, we are paying him for having no idea where the blitz is coming from. We are paying him for eyeballing one reciever, for running into sacks, for intentional grounding......... we're freak'n red shirting him at $5.25 millin dollars a year.

As to me being a "hater:" (why I dislike Pro-Vince more than I dislike Pro-Reggie)

(1) Reggie Bush is the "consensus" best RB available. Sure, there are scouts that have rated Lendale and DeAngelo well and some even above Reggie, but Reggie is substantially the front-runner in the RB debate. Only between Houston and Austin is Vince "consensus" anything, and that is the truth, whether or not you choose to believe it. I have talked to hundreds of people throughout the course of my regular job in multiple other states and no one holds Young in nearly the same regard as here. As far as Reggie, I have watched enough of his tape to be convinced that his game will translate to the NFL successfully and far more immediately than Young's. The nuances of transitioning from college to NFL RB are significantly lesser than that of QB. He is a bright kid, a hard worker, and as much a fantastic athlete at RB as Vince is at QB. IMO and because of aforementioned nuances, his success is more "assured."

(2) Davis, while good (and as I have said, in my opinion, at least certainly more than adequate) has consistently demonstrated injury problems. Carr has not: he has missed something like fifteen quarters in four years. Thus, drafting a 50M "partner" for Davis can be construed as the wise decision moreso than drafting a 55M "backup" or "replacement" for 24M (? not sure on the exact figure, but pricey) Carr.

(3) Bush and Davis can play tandem much more easily and effectively than can Carr and Young (Bush at WR, spelling each other, dual backs, etc.) You are simply being argumentative if you refuse to acknowledge that. Bush gives us multiple options and big play ability virtually anywhere on the field: something that previously only AJ has given us. We need another "big play" threat kind of guy before we need a dubious upgrade to QB that will take at least a year to get a handle on the pro game.

(4) I believe Carr is unequivocally the quarterback for this team, though I understand if you do not. I believe he can and will get the job done and done well under Kubiak, and that he has the arm to make all the throws: it's that simple. Regardless, we do not draft Bush to replace Davis: the two are highly probable to share a substantial majority of carries. If we draft Young, we do it either to replace Carr or sit behind him, but in either case, we are probably wasting a lot of money and valuable draft real estate in the process.

(5) The "pro Vince" arguments irritate me more than do the "pro Reggie" arguments. Partly because they are literally in 10:1 ratio on this board, and partly because they tend to be far more illiterate and lacking any sort of context/big picture for the Texans franchise. So there, I said it: that is part of my argument, I am human after all.

If it makes me a hater in your book, so be it, but understand that I think Bush is a far better option for the Texans team - as it exists now, all things considered - than Young. I've told you why and if you consider it pure prejudice, well, that's up to you and the rest of the bandwagon. Just know that it has nothing to do with me disliking the guy: I just believe he is not the right fit for us. It's that simple.

swtbound07
03-25-2006, 11:17 PM
As to me being a "hater:" (why I dislike Pro-Vince more than I dislike Pro-Reggie)

(1) Reggie Bush is the "consensus" best RB available. Sure, there are scouts that have rated Lendale and DeAngelo well and some even above Reggie, but Reggie is substantially the front-runner in the RB debate. Only between Houston and Austin is Vince "consensus" anything, and that is the truth, whether or not you choose to believe it. I have talked to hundreds of people throughout the course of my regular job in multiple other states and no one holds Young in nearly the same regard as here. As far as Reggie, I have watched enough of his tape to be convinced that his game will translate to the NFL successfully and far more immediately than Young's. The nuances of transitioning from college to NFL RB are significantly lesser than that of QB. He is a bright kid, a hard worker, and as much a fantastic athlete at RB as Vince is at QB. IMO and because of aforementioned nuances, his success is more "assured."

(2) Davis, while good (and as I have said, in my opinion, at least certainly more than adequate) has consistently demonstrated injury problems. Carr has not: he has missed something like fifteen quarters in four years. Thus, drafting a 50M "partner" for Davis can be construed as the wise decision moreso than drafting a 55M "backup" or "replacement" for 24M (? not sure on the exact figure, but pricey) Carr.

(3) Bush and Davis can play tandem much more easily and effectively than can Carr and Young (Bush at WR, spelling each other, dual backs, etc.) You are simply being argumentative if you refuse to acknowledge that. Bush gives us multiple options and big play ability virtually anywhere on the field: something that previously only AJ has given us. We need another "big play" threat kind of guy before we need a dubious upgrade to QB that will take at least a year to get a handle on the pro game.

(4) I believe Carr is unequivocally the quarterback for this team, though I understand if you do not. I believe he can and will get the job done and done well under Kubiak, and that he has the arm to make all the throws: it's that simple. Regardless, we do not draft Bush to replace Davis: the two are highly probable to share a substantial majority of carries. If we draft Young, we do it either to replace Carr or sit behind him, but in either case, we are probably wasting a lot of money and valuable draft real estate in the process.

(5) The "pro Vince" arguments irritate me more than do the "pro Reggie" arguments. Partly because they are literally in 10:1 ratio on this board, and partly because they tend to be far more illiterate and lacking any sort of context/big picture for the Texans franchise. So there, I said it: that is part of my argument, I am human after all.

If it makes me a hater in your book, so be it, but understand that I think Bush is a far better option for the Texans team - as it exists now, all things considered - than Young. I've told you why and if you consider it pure prejudice, well, that's up to you and the rest of the bandwagon. Just know that it has nothing to do with me disliking the guy: I just believe he is not the right fit for us. It's that simple.


I take issue with your first sentence. Reggie isnt even close to the consensus best RUNNING BACK. even from the reggie supporters, the arguement is that he is a threat at wide reciever and kick returner. He cant just be the running back, you have to supplement him with another back for him to be effective...or let him up to special teams. He isnt a pure running back, we have a great running back, and we dont need a wide reciever/kick returner high enough to draft at #1...we got a wide reciever/kick returner...his name is jerome mathis. And he's probably faster than reggie

tulexan
03-25-2006, 11:26 PM
Reggie's versatility is what makes him the #1 RB in the draft. He is without a doubt the best RB in the draft.

thunderkyss
03-25-2006, 11:26 PM
As to me being a "hater:" (why I dislike Pro-Vince more than I dislike Pro-Reggie)

If it makes me a hater in your book, so be it, but understand that I think Bush is a far better option for the Texans team - as it exists now, all things considered - than Young. I've told you why and if you consider it pure prejudice, well, that's up to you and the rest of the bandwagon. Just know that it has nothing to do with me disliking the guy: I just believe he is not the right fit for us. It's that simple.


Understood.

NederlandTexan
03-25-2006, 11:27 PM
I take issue with your first sentence. Reggie isnt even close to the consensus best RUNNING BACK.
Every mock draft site and magazine I've seen has Bush as the top back in the draft. Scouts.com has him rated at a 99. They must be wrong too.

thunderkyss
03-25-2006, 11:57 PM
Every mock draft site and magazine I've seen has Bush as the top back in the draft. Scouts.com has him rated at a 99. They must be wrong too.

what came first?? the Chicken or the Egg??

Did Houston Proclaim they will be taking Reggie #1 first, or was he rated #1 first??

Looking at our team, I can't see how someone who gets paid can say we need a running back more than anything else on this team.

We lead the league in sacks..... allowed. Our rushing game is better than half the teams in the league... Our passing game is worse than most. Our pass rush is non-existant, and we allow more rushing yards per game than any team in the league(I'm exagerrating for effect).

Now, I know the scouts can't see into the future, to see if we trade or not. It really depends on who has the #1 pick, to be able to say who that #1 pick will be. But if I were doing the Mock, considering the Texans having the #1 pick,

Let's imagine we draft DBrickshaw with the #1 pick.... do we address running back later in the draft?? Second Round?? there will be some great backs, that will do very, very well in a Denver type offense....... Denver, Seattle, Carolina, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis........... just some of the teams that prove you can go far with out that player that" is a threat to score from anywhere and cause match up problems".

I agree, The Texans have done all the right things to be able to address a non-need with the pick.......

I'm not denying that the Texans will more than likely take him....

I'm just saying I don't like it.

If Vince wasn't in this draft... I would...... after what we've done what we've done in free agency.

tulexan
03-26-2006, 12:01 AM
Reggie was the #1 prospect before the Texans locked it up.

Do you remember the Bush bowl?

swtbound07
03-26-2006, 12:45 AM
Every mock draft site and magazine I've seen has Bush as the top back in the draft. Scouts.com has him rated at a 99. They must be wrong too.


you really ignored the entire rest of what i said. I wasnt arguing his talent...but i was simply pointing out if he was JUST a running back, yall wouldnt be talking....you excuse our plethora at running back by saying he can pull at reciever too. If we really needed to supplement DD at running back, lendale white and deangelo williams would at least be in the discussion right? thats what yall say about leinart and young.

MorKnolle
03-26-2006, 02:59 AM
Dude, have you been watching or free agency as of lately. Every thing they are doing is pointing towards trading the pick to #4 to The Jets. The jets are in dire need for a RB and the texans really need a QB. Every one knows the Option to pick up Carr was made to ensure a starting day QB. He will be cut at the end of this season, and Vince will be starting in 2007. We have a great RB, we answered all questions on the defensive front in the free agency. We picked up a less than solid third string QB, and we now have a legit center to lead our OL. All arrows point towards Vince Young at #4. You Bush worshipers are blind. If he runs faster then 4.45 in the 40 it will be a miracle. I don't see why Houston Fans are not puling for Vince. He has heart, he is a great leader, he is clutch, he doesn't puch people out of bounds after plays( Reggie Bush ),and he is by far the greatest athlete in this years draft.

The Texans are not at all positioning themselves to trade down unless they get a huge offer, and if that happens they'll take Mario Williams or Reggie Bush at #4 and if both of them go in the top 3 then probably D'Brickashaw Ferguson. They do not need another QB, if they wanted another QB to seriously "challenge" David Carr then they would have gone after one of the many veteran ones that were available in free agency to have an experienced veteran option rather than bringing on a project rookie. Their answer at QB was signing Rosenfels, obviously indicating that David Carr is their man at #1 and Rosenfels is only meant as an emergency backup if Carr get hurt and that they don't feel the need to sign another ultra-expensive QB and have that much money riding the bench. Saying all this nonsense about Bush running a 4.45-4.55 is ridiculous. I'm not a huge Bush fan, but I realize that he's much faster football speed than that (you can't honestly say Vernon Davis is faster than Bush, and he ran a 4.38), plus Bush has significant experience running track so he knows how to properly run for those types of races, which will only help his time that much more.

I still don't know where you're getting this thing about Bush pushing someone out of bounds, in the four games I've recently rewatched of Vince I've seen him talk more trash and get in the faces of more opposing players than I saw out of Bush's 9 games I re-watched. Vince undeniably has some good physical gifts and exhibited good leadership and competitiveness at the college level, but there are more questions about his game translating to the NFL than Bush or any of the other top picks. Another interesting point on Vince, a buddy of mine recently went and watched every one of Vince's games from this year (not sure how he found the time/desire to do so, but I guess he was curious to revisit Vince, Reggie, Mario, and a few others) and Vince took a grand total of 43 snaps from under center in 13 games, add to that the nancy offense he ran at UT that will take extra time to adjust from, the questions about his technique, and some questions on his throwing ability and decision making.

As for your final comment, Mario Williams is quite clearly the best overall athlete available in this draft, a 6-7, 295 lb. guy that runs a 4.66 40, a 4.36 short shuttle and a 7.19 3 cone plus a 40.5 inch vertical and 35 bench press reps is truly rare. He is bigger, far stronger, and measured out to be faster than Julius Peppers in all these drills, and that kind of presence on defense creates some serious havoc on opposing offenses. Go find a tape of their game against Florida State, Virginia Tech, or especially Southern Mississippi and Maryland to see the kind of disruption he can cause on opposing offenses. I recently found tapes of those and a couple other games of his and was amazed, and anyone that really understands football and how defense works would be too. After Mario, Reggie Bush is the 2nd best athlete in this draft.

NederlandTexan
03-26-2006, 10:03 AM
...you excuse our plethora at running back...
It's your opinion that Bush is not very good, not worthy as the top back in the draft, that DD is a "great" back and we don't need another one. We can agree to disagree on that point.

jerek
03-27-2006, 10:43 AM
I take issue with your first sentence. Reggie isnt even close to the consensus best RUNNING BACK. even from the reggie supporters, the arguement is that he is a threat at wide reciever and kick returner. He cant just be the running back, you have to supplement him with another back for him to be effective...or let him up to special teams. He isnt a pure running back, we have a great running back, and we dont need a wide reciever/kick returner high enough to draft at #1...we got a wide reciever/kick returner...his name is jerome mathis. And he's probably faster than reggie

The Reggie Bush/KR argument IMO is ignorance. If we draft Bush at #1, we will be paying him something like 50M+. You do not shell out that kind of cash to a guy who will play special teams (increased likelihood of injury), past perhaps an occasional return. Especially if he is your featured RB. Just does not happen.

As I said, while some scouts do rate DeAngelo or even Lendale above Bush (more prototypical franchise back in terms of total package), Bush is substantially more the consensus best RB available than is Young the best QB available, as far as the national take goes. If you really want to argue me on this point, I can round up the published takes from the more "established" sources, let alone virtually any writer outside of Austin and McClain's office. While Reggie's size and durability are concerns (not that he has shown injury problems, only that we do not know how he would handle a full time NFL load with his 13 carries/per at SC), Bush is still one of the very best players available (with Williams making a strong case lately, and the steadily reliable but unheralded Leinart still at the top of that list.)

And Mathis is fast as hell, but I am going to be honest with you, I would not be surprised if Bush notches a 40 time that is very comparable. That is not the same thing as me saying he will run a time that fast, only that I would not be surprised if he did. As Mork noted, he has substantial track experience, and is simply ... very fast.

I too agree that Davis is a great back and I would hesitate to say we need to spend 50M on a tandem RB/slot receiver. Bush is an exciting athlete whom I believe would benefit this franchise much moreso than Young, and given our team as it stands now I believe he is a better use of that #1 than Young, but I still am very much hoping we can negotiate a good trade, maybe pick up Williams and other first day picks to round out the roster. That is my case.

el toro
03-27-2006, 10:48 AM
what came first?? the Chicken or the Egg??

Did Houston Proclaim they will be taking Reggie #1 first, or was he rated #1 first??

Looking at our team, I can't see how someone who gets paid can say we need a running back more than anything else on this team.

We lead the league in sacks..... allowed. Our rushing game is better than half the teams in the league... Our passing game is worse than most. Our pass rush is non-existant, and we allow more rushing yards per game than any team in the league(I'm exagerrating for effect).

Now, I know the scouts can't see into the future, to see if we trade or not. It really depends on who has the #1 pick, to be able to say who that #1 pick will be. But if I were doing the Mock, considering the Texans having the #1 pick,

Let's imagine we draft DBrickshaw with the #1 pick.... do we address running back later in the draft?? Second Round?? there will be some great backs, that will do very, very well in a Denver type offense....... Denver, Seattle, Carolina, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis........... just some of the teams that prove you can go far with out that player that" is a threat to score from anywhere and cause match up problems".

I agree, The Texans have done all the right things to be able to address a non-need with the pick.......

I'm not denying that the Texans will more than likely take him....

I'm just saying I don't like it.

If Vince wasn't in this draft... I would...... after what we've done what we've done in free agency.


The top pick gives you the opportunity to land a special player. That, coupled with a coaching staff who can use his talent is why you go with Bush. It's been covered ad naseum as to why adding Bush would not be overkill at that position. You can make the same case for QB and DE if you like.

thunderkyss
03-27-2006, 11:20 AM
The top pick gives you the opportunity to land a special player. That, coupled with a coaching staff who can use his talent is why you go with Bush. It's been covered ad naseum as to why adding Bush would not be overkill at that position. You can make the same case for QB and DE if you like.

All I'm saying in that post, is that I find it odd that every newspaper, and TV show has us picking Reggie with the #1 pick, considering the problems we have on this team.

I don't think I've heard one expert say, " The smart thing for the Texans to do, would be to draft D'Brickshaw Ferguson". Our QB spends the majority of his playing time looking up at the sky(or the roof if it's closed). Especially with our personnel at the end of 2005.

It's been said, it doesn't matter who our QB was, the results would have been the same. Adding another offensive threat, to me, would be just as futile. Especially if that threat, has to get to the corners, or is a "situational" reciever.

I can't think of one Reciever, not Terrell Owens, not Steve Smith, not Marvin Harrison who would have made the Texans a more potent offensive threat. We were taking sacks, when the opposing team would rush as little as 5 players.

There was no getting to the corner, by anybody.... there was no pass, by anybody(almost)... the defense was in our backfield....

I'm not saying we won't take Reggie Bush. But somewhere, someone has got to acknowledge that D'BrickShaw would be the most logical choice of the Houston Texans.

If we are looking from where we are at right now, then yes, I can see the consensus being Reggie Bush. But before Capers was fired, before Kubiak was hired, before FA........ I'm not buying it.......... looks like too much hype.

el toro
03-27-2006, 11:25 AM
Sometimes you can worry about "needs" so much that you talk yourself out of taking an awesome player. Sure, if someone shows up with a motherlode offer for Bush (multiple picks in this draft and perhaps a couple high ones next year) you probably have to take it.

jerek
03-27-2006, 11:41 AM
Sometimes you can worry about "needs" so much that you talk yourself out of taking an awesome player. Sure, if someone shows up with a motherlode offer for Bush (multiple picks in this draft and perhaps a couple high ones next year) you probably have to take it.

Lol, man ... don't say that and get the VY is awesome going again ... I know what you mean, but as you have left it, that is a weak argument.

thunderkyss
03-27-2006, 11:45 AM
Sometimes you can worry about "needs" so much that you talk yourself out of taking an awesome player. Sure, if someone shows up with a motherlode offer for Bush (multiple picks in this draft and perhaps a couple high ones next year) you probably have to take it.

If this is in reply to me, I understand that completely. I'm just saying no one even mentioned our need.