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Dr. Toro
03-21-2006, 10:32 PM
"Young, Huff and defensive tackle Rod Wright will go through position drills today. They will run 40-yard sprints and participate in speed, strength and agility drills."

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sports/stories/longhorns/03/22TEXFOOT.html

Might be vague reporting or some worthwhile news.

4.4?

Dunta_23
03-21-2006, 11:11 PM
I say if he runs it is a 4.54 tops

BuffSoldier
03-21-2006, 11:26 PM
I think VY at least runs a 4.4 if not better. I wouldnt be suprised if he was in the low 4.4s maybe somewhere near a high 4.3

Texas
03-21-2006, 11:40 PM
It was actually a 4.45...For young that is!

kiwitexansfan
03-21-2006, 11:41 PM
do you have a link for that time?

Texas
03-21-2006, 11:45 PM
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/qb/vinceyoung.html

jayj0225
03-22-2006, 12:05 AM
Texas' pro day is not till wed Mar 22

MorKnolle
03-22-2006, 12:18 AM
Texas has their pro day Wednesday March 22, so no one has run yet. I doubt Huff runs the 40 and such after his great run at the Combine, but he'll probably do position drills. I don't know if Vince will run the 40 or not. If he is going to run in the mid-4.4s, then if he's smart he'll run just in case he doesn't wow people with his throwing so they at least know he's fast. If he won't be able to run in the 4.4s and will be more like the 4.5s then I'm not sure he runs since "everyone knows what he can do with his legs" and he won't be proving any kind of amazing speed with those times. Bottom line Vince's draft stock comes entirely down to how well he throws the ball tomorrow, that will be the #1 remaining factor in where he goes in the draft since he's done nothing since January 4th to improve his stock. His 40 time is going to be just a little icing on the cake or a little consolation prize depending on how his arm looks.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 01:11 AM
Texas has their pro day Wednesday March 22, so no one has run yet. I doubt Huff runs the 40 and such after his great run at the Combine, but he'll probably do position drills. I don't know if Vince will run the 40 or not. If he is going to run in the mid-4.4s, then if he's smart he'll run just in case he doesn't wow people with his throwing so they at least know he's fast. If he won't be able to run in the 4.4s and will be more like the 4.5s then I'm not sure he runs since "everyone knows what he can do with his legs" and he won't be proving any kind of amazing speed with those times. Bottom line Vince's draft stock comes entirely down to how well he throws the ball tomorrow, that will be the #1 remaining factor in where he goes in the draft since he's done nothing since January 4th to improve his stock. His 40 time is going to be just a little icing on the cake or a little consolation prize depending on how his arm looks.

I agree completely. If he does run, it should be because he's been burning the track up lately. Hasn't Texas track been slow in recent years?

Nighthawk
03-22-2006, 01:25 AM
Seems like the only way Vince Young can stop his (very expensive) slide is to throw the bejesus out of the ball, make every throw, look great doing it, have perfect timing, have his release look reasonably like a regular QB, run a 4.3, and have other great drills. I don't expect half of this to happen.

Then I expect him to go 7-13 in the draft and sit for half a year before starting a career I think (and hope) will be exceptional. Look forward to watching him play at "the next level" and seeing just how much of the domination of the college game falls away in the pros.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 01:28 AM
I think he will have to sit for longer than half of a season. I would say a full season minimum, possibly two seasons.

gtexan02
03-22-2006, 01:30 AM
I think he will have to sit for longer than half of a season. I would say a full season minimum, possibly two seasons.

Except for the Brees/Rivers situation, no top 10 draft pick should sit for more than 1 season. It just seems counterproductive. THe best learning is on the field during game time

tulexan
03-22-2006, 01:38 AM
Vince is a very raw player who will need a lot of work. He isn't the typical top 10 draft pick QB.

powerfuldragon
03-22-2006, 09:09 AM
I think VY at least runs a 4.4 if not better. I wouldnt be suprised if he was in the low 4.4s maybe somewhere near a high 4.3

maybe if super mario was chasing him.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 09:12 AM
The guys on 610 am said Vince is not going to run or lift at his pro-day.

Runner
03-22-2006, 09:17 AM
The guys on 610 am said Vince is not going to run or lift at his pro-day.

What does this mean?

I haven't followed real close because i've never been a real draftnik, but he didn't run or lift at the combine, correct? Does this mean he won't ever have a timed 40 or lift before the draft? I find that unsettling for a guy who's list of strengths always include fast and strong.

Is this unusual for guys who already think they have guaranteed themselves a high draft slot?

Vinny
03-22-2006, 09:24 AM
What does this mean?

I haven't followed real close becuase i've never been a real draftnik, but he didn't run or lift at the combine, correct? Does this mean he won't ever have a timed 40 or lift before the draft? I find that unsettling for a guy who's list of strengths always include fast and strong.

Is this unusual for guys who already think they have guaranteed themselves a high draft slot?Yeah, if he is going to play WR. Nobody really cares about the top end speed of a QB in the NFL. They just want to see him throw the ball like an NFL QB.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 09:25 AM
What does this mean?

I haven't followed real close becuase i've never been a real draftnik, but he didn't run or lift at the combine, correct? Does this mean he won't ever have a timed 40 or lift before the draft? I find that unsettling for a guy who's list of strengths always include fast and strong.

Is this unusual for guys who already think they have guaranteed themselves a high draft slot?

My impression is most guys even at the top do these tests at their pro-day although many skip doing them at the combine. Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning all did strength and speed tests. It probably should be irrelevent because there is plenty of tape of him running and they can judge his arm strength from the passing. I wonder if this isn't a mistake by his handlers though--it never seems like a good idea IMO to stand out for not doing something.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 09:26 AM
In the end it'll be irrelevant .... but you can bet that if he (or his management) were confident that he could rip off a 4.4 40 or 25 reps on the bench that he'd be doing it ....

Vinny
03-22-2006, 09:29 AM
In the end it'll be irrelevant .... but you can bet that if he (or his management) were confident that he could rip off a 4.4 40 or 25 reps on the bench that he'd be doing it ....Frankly, they just want everyone with the mindset that he is a QB and probably only want to showcase his arm. If people can't tell he is fast by watching him play, then they have issues. If Young is going to be a top 5 pick it will because he throws well, not because he runs a 4.43

Runner
03-22-2006, 09:40 AM
OK, thanks for the answers. At the risk of being thrown into a variety of hater/lover camps, I'd like to make one point. If VY is truly a guy who can "redefine the position of quarterback" and is being evaluated that way, I would think that he'd start writing that definition now and do the workouts.

I am prepared to stop, draw, and roll. :)

Coach C.
03-22-2006, 09:42 AM
Why is this a suprise to people, he has not worked out at all and all of a sudden he would not work out at his designated Pro day. What the hell people come on VY is not a god and he has to prove himself like every other prospect.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 09:42 AM
OK, thanks for the answers. At the risk of being thrown into a variety of hater/lover camps, I'd like to make one point. If VY is truly a guy who can "redefine the position of quarterback" and is being evaluated that way, I would think that he'd start writing that definition now and do the workouts.

I am prepared to stop, draw, and roll. :)

You may want pull out the duck and cover move as well. ;)

Vinny
03-22-2006, 09:44 AM
OK, thanks for the answers. At the risk of being thrown into a variety of hater/lover camps, I'd like to make one point. If VY is truly a guy who can "redefine the position of quarterback" and is being evaluated that way, I would think that he'd start writing that definition now and do the workouts.

I am prepared to stop, draw, and roll. :)He's not out to "redefine the QB position today", hes protecting his draft stock. Let's say he runs a 4.2 and throws horribly. He drops like a rock. If he throws well and captures the imagination of cynics who don't think he can throw the deep out he stays a top-5 candidate. How much he benches and if he runs a 4.4 or 4.5 has nothing to do with what he is trying to accomplish today.

Frills
03-22-2006, 09:44 AM
VY's work ethic is starting to come into question,

The debalce at the combine, not working there, not running or lifting today, it just doesn't seem like he understands what it will take at the next level.

Its not any one event but all of them combined that makes me hope he goes to Dallas or Tenn.

Vinny
03-22-2006, 09:44 AM
Why is this a suprise to people, he has not worked out at all and all of a sudden he would not work out at his designated Pro day. What the hell people come on VY is not a god and he has to prove himself like every other prospect.Some people think they know a good football player by watching games.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 09:46 AM
He's not out to "redefine the QB position today", hes protecting his draft stock.


and choosing to not run and lift "protects" his stock? Doesn't that foster a perception of "something to hide"? Jeeez you'd think his first reaction would be to run because that's his strength.

Vinny
03-22-2006, 09:47 AM
and choosing to not run and lift "protects" his stock? Doesn't that foster a perception of "something to hide"? Jeeez you'd think his first reaction would be to run because that's his strength.If you scroll up I already gave you my answer. I know why I stay out of these kinds of threads all of a sudden. Carry on with your hate for Young...Sorry to interrupt.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 09:48 AM
This is what I don't like about Vince and what I like about Jay Cutler. Seems like there is always some mystery to Vince. He doesn't seem like he is willing to completely showcase the player that he is. Cutler on the other hand does everything that is asked to show the GMs, scouts, and owners exactly who he is. Could Cutler potentially hurt his stock by participating in all of these drills? Sure, but at least people know.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 09:50 AM
If you scoll up I already gave you my answer.


yea i read your take .... just not sure that choosing to skip drills is "advisable" at this point .... but he hasn't asked my opinion ..

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 09:54 AM
So much hate, so little time.

nunusguy
03-22-2006, 09:55 AM
Frankly, they just want everyone with the mindset that he is a QB and probably only want to showcase his arm. If people can't tell he is fast by watching him play, then they have issues. If Young is going to be a top 5 pick it will because he throws well, not because he runs a 4.43
Yea, this would seem to be a logical strategy at this point in time. Afterall, VYs running skill set, to include his sprinting speed, has probably already got too much exposure. I dunno....the whole run first, pass second label has been afixed on VY, rightly or wrongly. Concentrading on his passing skills would be the area to dwell on right now, even to the extend of ignoring his running skills.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 09:57 AM
If you scroll up I already gave you my answer. I know why I stay out of these kinds of threads all of a sudden. Carry on with your hate for Young...Sorry to interrupt.

Seems a little fast on the hate 6 shooter. Anyway, I agree that teams should be able to judge Young's speed from game tape. Of course the same thing could be said for his throwing--there is tape of hundreds of throws in real game conditions, what difference should 50 throws in non-game conditions make? In fact, you could chuck the whole pro-day thing out as silly.

My only comment was to question his management. Flip this around--how bad would VY have to run or lift to hurt his draft stock?--my guess would be 4.7 or above and under what 12 lifts. Why not go ahead and knock out a 4.5 and 18 lifts and have this all be a non-issue? I see where you are coming from on concentrating on the passer image, but JMO his management has to weight that goal against a predictable reaction to not participating in drills as well.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 09:59 AM
Why not go ahead and knock out a 4.5 and 18 lifts and have this all be a non-issue?


I can feel your anger ... Darth Sidious

Frills
03-22-2006, 10:03 AM
Could he be a little dinged, and not wanting to risk showing it via running/lifting?

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 10:04 AM
Why not go ahead and knock out a 4.5 and 18 lifts and have this all be a non-issue?

But why is it an issue? Manufactured doubt is a powerful tool for nay sayers. I could care less, because I do not think we are drafting him, nor do I want us to draft him. However, I cannot wait to watch the guy play in the NFL. I just do not understand how people just want to tear down a guy that has zero impact on their fandom, unless they are aggies of course.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 10:06 AM
I'm thinking Bush should refuse to catch passes at his pro draft. He'll want to downplay the mindset that's he a good receiver.

Frills
03-22-2006, 10:06 AM
But why is it an issue? Manufactured doubt is a powerful tool for nay sayers. I could care less, because I do not think we are drafting him, nor do I want us to draft him. However, I cannot wait to watch the guy play in the NFL. I just do not understand how people just want to tear down a guy that has zero impact on their fandom, unless they are aggies of course.


Don't forget about the Sooners.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 10:07 AM
Don't forget about the Sooners.

I stand corrected.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 10:08 AM
But why is it an issue? Manufactured doubt is a powerful tool for nay sayers. I could care less, because I do not think we are drafting him, nor do I want us to draft him. However, I cannot wait to watch the guy play in the NFL. I just do not understand how people just want to tear down a guy that has zero impact on their fandom, unless they are aggies of course.

Holy madre de jezus--I am not naysaying him or tearing him down. It is an issue IMO only from a management perspective. Most players even at the top of the draft run a 40 at some point and lift. By not doing that VY is taking a less travelled path. Whenever you take a less travelled path the decision is going to be analyzed. Why not avoid the distraction and make it a non-issue? Vinny has given one reason, emphasis on his passing ability. I'm just not sure that outweighs having the issue predictably raised.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 10:08 AM
I'm thinking Bush should refuse to catch passes at his pro draft. He'll want to downplay the mindset that's he a good receiver.

I hope he does not as his value to us is as RB and WR. Moreover, I want to see him catch a Carr type ball more so than a Leinart ball.

Frills
03-22-2006, 10:10 AM
If he wants to come to Houston, he should show how well he can run...Its key to his survival

chuckm
03-22-2006, 10:11 AM
I hope he does not as his value to us is as RB and WR. Moreover, I want to see him catch a Carr type ball more so than a Leinart ball.


oh I am soooo there with you ... I'm just trying to point out the fallacy of Young not wanting to run because he wants to foster the mindset that he's a QB..... the guy has more physical gifts than 99.999999% of people ever to pull on pads .... For God's sake, SHOW THEM OFF

Lucky
03-22-2006, 10:13 AM
Vince Young doesn't need to run today. If a team interested in taking Vince needs a 40 time (he hasn't had an injury, why would they?), they can ask him to run at a private workout. This pro day, which will be scripted by Young's tutor Jerry Rhome, is not as important as the private workouts where teams can get a hands-on evaluation of Vince with their coaches.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 10:17 AM
Holy madre de jezus--I am not naysaying him or tearing him down. It is an issue IMO only from a management perspective. Most players even at the top of the draft run a 40 at some point and lift. By not doing that VY is taking a less travelled path. Whenever you take a less travelled path the decision is going to be analyzed. Why not avoid the distraction and make it a non-issue? Vinny has given one reason, emphasis on his passing ability. I'm just not sure that outweighs having the issue predictably raised.

Simmer down, I was not saying you are a naysayer or tearing him down. We have talked about the management which has been a disaster to date from a PR standpoint. However, when one brings a player to market one does it with a bifurcated scheme - promotion and skill development. They have hired Jerry Rhome to work with VY. NFL personell will be speaking with Rhome about the football side of VY, count on it, they will not be speaking with VY's agent until there is a need to organize 1x1 meetings with VY and the teams. And then ultimatley Adams will be there to work VY's contract.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 10:18 AM
Lance and John say it doesn't matter that Young isn't running or lifting ... close this thread immediately

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 10:19 AM
Vince Young doesn't need to run today. If a team interested in taking Vince needs a 40 time (he hasn't had an injury, why would they?), they can ask him to run at a private workout. This pro day, which will be scripted by Young's tutor Jerry Rhome, is not as important as the private workouts where teams can get a hands-on evaluation of Vince with their coaches.

Not to often are we in harmony, but my sentiments exactly.

Runner
03-22-2006, 10:28 AM
To summarize the points I was interested in:

1) It is an unusual move, which invites scrutiny.
2) There is a logical reason behind the decision.
3) There is equal logic to why the decision may backfire and raise questions.
4) He may run these drills privately for teams that are interested in drafting him.

So it is basically a risk/reward decision based on protecting (but maybe not enhancing?), his draft stock.

Thanks for the discussion.

edo783
03-22-2006, 10:28 AM
VY is a QB, QBs throw the ball, he is throwing the ball. Not much else for him to do. Nice if he ran and lifted, but not really part of the QB story.

Lucky
03-22-2006, 10:29 AM
Not to often are we in harmony, but my sentiments exactly.
Let's take this opportunity to make up. :grouphug:

BTW, there are other Horns that should be on the Texans' radar. Cedric Griffin can play CB or FS and would be a good pick in the 3rd round.

Edit: This is my 2112th post & I'd like to pay tribute to Rush, one of my favorite arena rock bands.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 10:30 AM
Let's take this opportunity to make up. :grouphug:

BTW, there are other Horns that should be on the Texans' radar. Cedric Griffin can play CB or FS and would be a good pick in the 3rd round.

Its all good in the hood. I have got my sights on Grif in the 3rd as well.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 10:51 AM
Edit: This is my 2112th post & I'd like to pay tribute to Rush, one of my favorite arena rock bands.

I knew my wife was different when I found out she was a rare woman who had Rush as their favorite band. I'm not as big on the new stuff but absolutely love their older work.

wags
03-22-2006, 10:56 AM
Just curious, but when was the last time a top QB had a bad workout on his pro-day. It's always Smith, Rodgers, Cutler impress at pro-day. Do these guys ever puke on themselves and hit a scout in back of the head on a 15 yard out?

Dunta_23
03-22-2006, 11:11 AM
I think he should do anything he can at this point to show that he is more spectacular than Jay Cutler...who at the moment is the player moving up most people boards...if he doesnt throw the ball great he doest have his supposed "4.3-4.4" time to say that if he works on his throwing he could be the leagues most dynamic... Running the ball is part of his game... its just a cop out in my opinion

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 11:25 AM
I think he should do anything he can at this point to show that he is more spectacular than Jay Cutler...who at the moment is the player moving up most people boards...if he doesnt throw the ball great he doest have his supposed "4.3-4.4" time to say that if he works on his throwing he could be the leagues most dynamic... Running the ball is part of his game... its just a cop out in my opinion

And are you suggesting that no one has seen him run within the confines of a live game or at least on video? Moreover, are you suggesting that the rules committee will be offering bonus points for QB's who can run 40 yards in a straight line under 4.5 before the game or half time?

People need to see more of Jay Cutler, because those that saw Cutler saw it against opponents that were not that good or he did not perform that well against the better SEC teams.

http://vanderbilt.rivals.com/schedule.asp?SID=1087&TEAM=VANDERBILT&Year=2005

tulexan
03-22-2006, 12:49 PM
He had a pretty good game against Florida. They lost 42-49, but look at his stats

28-42 361 yards 4 TDs 2 INTs

Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 01:13 PM
VY won't run the 40 because he is not that quick from a dead stop ~ Vince has long legs which take a bit longer to set into a full stride. When Vince is scrambling around - then breaks he is exceptionally fast, but of course this can't be recreated in a stop n' go 40 dash.

I would put Vince in the 13-18 rep range on the 225 test.



Today he will show off his arm.

Wild.Bill
03-22-2006, 01:57 PM
Vince Young did run the 40 once in 4.57 seconds.

Jerry
03-22-2006, 01:57 PM
TEXAS: MARCH 22
Texas' Pro Day got under way with 31 teams in attendance, including over 150 coaches, general managers and scouts. Among the team personnel in attendance were three key members of the Texans (owner Bob McNair, head coach Gary Kubiak and GM Charley Casserly), Green Bay head coach Mike McCarthy and GM Ted Thompson, Dolphins head coach Nick Saban and general manager Randy Mueller, Titans general manager Floyd Reese and offensive coordinator Norm Chow, Rams defensive coordinator Jim Haslett, Ravens quarterbacks coach Rick Neuheisel, and Cowboys new quarterbacks coach Chris Palmer. Titans head coach Jeff Fisher will visit Texas tonight and Tennessee will have a private workout with Vince Young Thursday morning.
Player Position Gil's comments
Vince Young QB Young (6-4 5/8, 228) ran the 40 once in 4.57. He didn't do the vertical or long jumps.
Will Allen G Allen (6-4 7/8, 306) measured 26½ inches in the vertical jump.
Brian Carter WR Carter (5-10 5/8, 185) had a 38-inch vertical jump.
Larry Dibbles DT Dibbles (6-1 3/8, 290) had a 27½-inch vertical jump.
Cedric Griffin DB Griffin (6-0 3/8, 202) had a 35-inch vertical jump.
Ahmard Hall RB Hall (5-10Ύ, 232) was clocked at 4.56 and 4.49 in the 40 and had a 35-inch vertical jump.
Aaron Harris LB Harris (5-11 3/8, 225) had a 27½-inch vertical jump.
Michael Huff DB Huff (5-11 7/8, 198) stood on his Combine numbers.
Jonathan Scott OL Scott (6-6, 322) has an arm length of 33 7/8 inches and a hand size of 10 inches.


http://nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts

Looks like he ran a 4.57 and did nothing else.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 01:58 PM
He is running.

http://blogs.chron.com/vincewatch/

Vinny
03-22-2006, 02:02 PM
per Gil Brant Vince Young QB Young (6-4 5/8, 228) ran the 40 once in 4.57. He didn't do the vertical or long jumps.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts

Vinny
03-22-2006, 02:03 PM
you guys are fast

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 02:05 PM
http://nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts

Looks like he ran a 4.57 and did nothing else.

I'd be interested to see the splits... he'll never run from a dead stop, the second 20 yards are what matters for him.

SnakeOilTanker
03-22-2006, 02:13 PM
Vince ran one 40 at 4.57

http://nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts#texas

It doesn't say how he looked throwing. Lance Zerline is suppose to have a report on the afternoon show about it.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 02:15 PM
So the VY has something to hide fan fare can calm down now?

SnakeOilTanker
03-22-2006, 02:18 PM
4.57 doesnt make me wet myself...I wonder how his throwing went

I think a 4.42 like he said he could run would have helped things out alot.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 02:21 PM
So the VY has something to hide fan fare can calm down now?

how about us "his management is minor league" crowd? he's not running, he's running, he runs a 4.57 .... is that what was expected? I thought he was in the 4.45 range?

Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 02:21 PM
No shocker on that 40 time -- the real surprise is that he even ran.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 02:25 PM
how about us "his management is minor league" crowd? he's not running, he's running, he runs a 4.57 .... is that what was expected? I thought he was in the 4.45 range?

Why do you care? Do you want VY or not?

I do not want VY myself, but try to frame the debate from both sides. 4.57 is what I would have expected, but even if he ran a 4.3 it would not change my opinion of the kid nor my opinion that the Texans will be passing.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 02:31 PM
how about us "his management is minor league" crowd? he's not running, he's running, he runs a 4.57 .... is that what was expected? I thought he was in the 4.45 range?

A lot of kids have run slower than expected times on Texas' surface. In contrast, the Combine surface was ridiculously slick (from reports and measured times). So, I think that's understood by the NFL folk... however, if he was that concerned about the time, the logical thing would have been to run at the Combine, post a gaudy time and give 'em something to talk about, throw at the friendly confines of the pro-day. That's hindsight, however, and more than a few eyebrows would have been raised at a QB willing to run, but not throw. Along those lines, I imagine he abstained from the jumping exercises to not allow anyone to talk about him at WR... certainly nothing to hide there, just check out some old basketball highlights.

He is right about team's knowing what he could do with his legs, he was seldom caught from behind.

nunusguy
03-22-2006, 02:33 PM
4.57 doesnt make me wet myself...I wonder how his throwing went
I think a 4.42 like he said he could run would have helped things out alot.
I dunno.....forget about making it as a NFL Matt Jones type, because his time is turtle like compared to the former Razorback QB. VY had better keep
his day job, looks like QB is his only option unless he could beef up, learn how to block and play TE.

jerek
03-22-2006, 02:36 PM
lol ... 4.57.

Hear that whistle? That's the sound of draft stock ... dropping.

Hopefully the guy can redeem this showing with throwing drills.

IMO, Vince's only real goal today was (or should have been) to "not screw up." Stand on the strength of the still impressive Rose Bowl performance, and don't do anything to tarnish it. Running a 4.57 doesn't dillute his Rose Bowl/collegiate career runs, but it does help to frame the relativity of his competition in completing those runs ... something I and others have been pointing to all along.

Then again I suppose we will hear soon enough how the timekeepers screwed up the score and Vince will run again and notch a 4.41.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 02:39 PM
Actually it was a mistake. Vince ran a 3.57 40

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 02:53 PM
i wouldn't hold much weight on that time..

chuckm
03-22-2006, 02:53 PM
Why do you care? Do you want VY or not?

I do not want VY myself, but try to frame the debate from both sides. 4.57 is what I would have expected, but even if he ran a 4.3 it would not change my opinion of the kid nor my opinion that the Texans will be passing.


I've said this before (many times) and I'll say it again just for you ... here's my opinion in an easy to read format

1) Give Carr a chance with a real offense and a real offensive scheme
2) Draft Bush because IMO Kubiak's offensive scheme is tailor-made for his cutback ability and Kubiak is imaginative enough to use him correctly
3) Young is the second or third best QB in this draft almost everywhere except Southeast Texas


My disdain for the Young disciples is approached but not surpassed by the Carr apologists. The blame for last year's debacle should be spread around.

awaiting your witty reply ....

Texans_Chick
03-22-2006, 02:56 PM
The most interesting part was who was in attendance, esp the key personnel:

"Texas' Pro Day got under way with 31 teams in attendance, including over 150 coaches, general managers and scouts. Among the team personnel in attendance were three key members of the Texans (owner Bob McNair, head coach Gary Kubiak and GM Charley Casserly), Green Bay head coach Mike McCarthy and GM Ted Thompson, Dolphins head coach Nick Saban and general manager Randy Mueller, Titans general manager Floyd Reese and offensive coordinator Norm Chow, Rams defensive coordinator Jim Haslett, Ravens quarterbacks coach Rick Neuheisel, and Cowboys new quarterbacks coach Chris Palmer. Titans head coach Jeff Fisher will visit Texas tonight and Tennessee will have a private workout with Vince Young Thursday morning.

After the workout is over in the bubble, Vince Young will go into the main meeting room with Texas offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach Greg Davis for a Chalkboard Session, where team representatives get the chance to ask Young questions about his on-field decision-making in different situations."

tulexan
03-22-2006, 02:59 PM
Didn't Carr run a 4.67 40? Not too much faster by Vince

Coach C.
03-22-2006, 03:05 PM
Jerek, I remember several non-VY supporters saying that he would not run in the 4.4s that he was about as fast as Gaffney. Huh, weird how we knew, but that VY brand Koolaid makes things appear better than they are. Anyway, hope you enjoy collecting on those bets, eventhough I think most are going to welch on you.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 03:05 PM
Didn't Carr run a 4.67 40? Not too much faster by Vince

I've read VY was reported at 4.49 elsewhere. Everybody has their own watch. Carr really utilized that speed in the WAC... nope he was still sack prone and didn't run effectively.

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 03:06 PM
Dan Patrick was just saying VY was timed @ a 4.49

Johnny Utah
03-22-2006, 03:25 PM
Dan Patrick was just saying VY was timed @ a 4.49

Here we go, another Wonderlic fiasco. :)

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 03:25 PM
Lance Z says it wasn't planned for him to run. He got sucked into the competition and wanted to run. No telling if he was training for the time like a lot of guys do. Sounds like he just went for it. Also said former players told him VY doesn't run a fast 40 because it "takes him a long time to warm up". That would indicate his game speed is better than his track speed. I don't know about all that, but his top gear seems pretty solid.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 03:25 PM
LanceZ couldn't give the exact number (some UT restriction) but said it was slower than 4.5 ... FWIW

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 03:26 PM
Here we go, another Wonderlic fiasco. :)


it's not that big a deal.

he ran once & there were what, like 40 people with stopwatches? obviously they got different times.

whomever reported to patrick times a 4.49.

whomever reported to nfl.com got a 4.57

tulexan
03-22-2006, 03:29 PM
They really should have electronically timed 40 times at all of these pro days, private workouts, and Combine. There is so much variation in the amount of time that it takes between the player crossing the finish line and the timer pressing stop.

All of these times could be uniform if they just timed them like they do for track events where the clock stops when the runner crosses the laser.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 03:32 PM
They really should have electronically timed 40 times at all of these pro days, private workouts, and Combine. There is so much variation in the amount of time that it takes between the player crossing the finish line and the timer pressing stop.

All of these times could be uniform if they just timed them like they do for track events where the clock stops when the runner crosses the laser.

Agreed. Then there's the question of uniform surface.

jerek
03-22-2006, 03:37 PM
i wouldn't hold much weight on that time..

Why wouldn't you? It was timed at UT. If there is one place on the planet where timekeepers err on the side of VInce, it is there.

Or are you saying don't hold much weight because Vince didn't try? Wtf would he run it for if he wasn't going all out?

Or maybe it is just part of the ongoing conspiracy to discredit Vince? nfl.com is in on the action now? Vince ran this in front of a crew of scouts and personnel: it isn't a guy scoring it in a backroom somewhere.

Incredible the lengths people will go to. VY drinkers are ten times worse than the "Carr lovers" because it isn't even a case of questioning intangibles or things on which opinions can exist and differ, but you want to question a forty-time on the UT campus of all places.

Unbelievable. Or maybe I am just overreacting. Please clarify.

ArlingtonTexan
03-22-2006, 03:41 PM
Agreed. Then there's the question of uniform surface.

Honestly, this is why the combine is the fairest measure. They are all running under the same conditions.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 03:42 PM
Why wouldn't you? It was timed at UT. If there is one place on the planet where timekeepers err on the side of VInce, it is there.

Or are you saying don't hold much weight because Vince didn't try? Wtf would he run it for if he wasn't going all out?

Or maybe it is just part of the ongoing conspiracy to discredit Vince? nfl.com is in on the action now? Vince ran this in front of a crew of scouts and personnel: it isn't a guy scoring it in a backroom somewhere.

Incredible the lengths people will go to. VY drinkers are ten times worse than the "Carr lovers" because it isn't even a case of questioning intangibles or things on which opinions can exist and differ, but you want to question a forty-time on the UT campus of all places.

Unbelievable. Or maybe I am just overreacting. Please clarify.

It's not a basketball game, it's a bunch of scouts with stopwatches. There is no homer timekeeper. Brandt was initially reporting the slower of two times at the combine, not even averaging the times (Jackson at 4.37 not 4.29, for example). He's been conservative with times in the past, and times varying by 8/100 of a second shouldn't be a surprise. It's not automated.

EDIT: Jackson times

Johnny Utah
03-22-2006, 03:43 PM
Word around the UT campus is that VY ran that 40 time backwards.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 03:45 PM
Word around the UT campus is that VY ran that 40 time backwards.


I heard he ran it with the entire UT football team on his back ....

Wild.Bill
03-22-2006, 03:49 PM
What does it matter? A QUARTERBACK who is almost 6'5" and 228 lbs. who can run the 40 in a 4.57 seconds is cruising. Besides, track speed doesn't really matter. What his game films. You will see what kind of speed and quickness that he has. On top of that, he is strong.

This kind of stuff always gets blown out of porportion. I'm anxious to see how he throws.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 03:55 PM
According to Lance Z. he was perfect on the short stuff, slants, and deep balls. Adequate but not "muscling" the 20 yard digs. Footwork was really good. Arm slot a little better, and VY sounds out to prove people wrong.

Blake
03-22-2006, 03:56 PM
nfl.com reports he started out 7 for 7 passing.


http://www.nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts#texas

jerek
03-22-2006, 03:57 PM
They really should have electronically timed 40 times at all of these pro days, private workouts, and Combine. There is so much variation in the amount of time that it takes between the player crossing the finish line and the timer pressing stop.

All of these times could be uniform if they just timed them like they do for track events where the clock stops when the runner crosses the laser.

Definitely, makes no sense why they wouldn't. Human reaction time alone would provide variance in the tenths of second I believe. So from this standpoint, you have an excuse. Not much of one though. 4.49 is still well short of these 4.3+ to low 4.4 predictions I have been reading of for weeks now.

Johnny Utah
03-22-2006, 03:59 PM
Said velocity was okay, but was very accurate on his passes.

Wild.Bill
03-22-2006, 03:59 PM
Lance Z says that he through the ball very well.

66cobra
03-22-2006, 03:59 PM
For the record I am a Longhorn fan and Vince will always hold a place in my heart for what he did in the Rose Bowl, but I did go back and watch some game film (specifically the USC Rose Bowl and the Michigan Rose Bowl).

In the USC Rose Bowl, Vince ran about 55 yards before being tackled and I reviewed it until I determined what his fastest 40 yard burst was and accounted for his running crossfield before going in a straight line, I timed him (using a track stopwatch) at 4.43.

In the Michigan game, I found his 60 yard run and started the stopwatch at the 40 yard line (when he crossed it) to the goal line (at this point he is running hard because 2 defenders are close and in chase) and after several times rewinding and retiming, I timed Vince in the range between 4.48 and 4.52 for an average of 4.50 (actually 4.4975) so the 4.56 could be legit.

Txn_in_FL
03-22-2006, 04:00 PM
What does it matter? A QUARTERBACK who is almost 6'5" and 228 lbs. who can run the 40 in a 4.57 seconds is cruising. Besides, track speed doesn't really matter. What his game films. You will see what kind of speed and quickness that he has. On top of that, he is strong.

Don't forget leader. He has great leadership.

Besides, I heard he was tired from delivering babies all night at the county hospital, and that was right before he parted the Rio Grande so some nice families could make it across safely.

The guy is a great athlete, there is no dispute about that. I think what most people on this board are tired of is all the grandstanding and leg humping that make it sound like he is the greatest player ever and he will change the league, adding to that the idea that everytime he does something that isn't quite perfect you have people rushing to cover and make excuses.

The 40 was skewed because the grass was too long.
The Wonderlic was bad because they misgraded.
His passes are off because of this.
Blahzee-Blah-Blah.

I wish him all the luck in the world. He will play for someone, and play well. He will be awesome and amazing and you will see flash bulbs everytime he plays. I just don't want him playing for Houston.

bkimble
03-22-2006, 04:12 PM
I found this posted on UT football board. I thought it was a great article about VY. It was written by a local high coach who had to devise a plan to defend against VY. I hope the Texans are paying attention.

:fans:




"I have been coaching football for many years and I have never had to gameplan for a player like we did for VY as a senior at Madison. I coach at a "speed" school and we had never seen anyone like him. We had several guys run in the high 4.4's low 4.5's on the team (handheld watches) and we were still aghast at his speed.

I was actually at the Dome his senior year waiting for Madison to complete their practice so we could have ours (they were preparing for Katy and us for Northshore). All of the coaches, some of them had been coaching for 30+ years, all stared in amazement at him running around the field. We knew then that we would be in for the longest of long afternoons when we sat down to devise a plan to defend him.

I have never seen anyone with his speed and size on a football field and regardless of his 40 "time" he will never be caught from behind and he is so strong that any contact made while he is gaining momentum is normally shrugged off or has minimal effect on him gaining speed. Any coach/scout who concerns himself with his speed on a timing day need only get on field level during game time to fully undertand what he is capable of. "

ArlingtonTexan
03-22-2006, 04:22 PM
Rumors from a UT paysite..Said Jerry Rhome reported that Young 55/57 good passes (some drops)...The site said various people not paid by Vince Young thought he threw well with good accuracy and strength. Overall, a very good work out, but did not blow people away.

Apparently, did nothing to hurt himself.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 04:27 PM
Didn't Carr run a 4.67 40? Not too much faster by Vince

Yes Carr ran a 4.67. Here are the agility stats from his NFL.com prospect profile:

AGILITY TESTS
4.67 in the 40-yard dash … 4.28 in the 20-yard shuttle … 7.05 in the three-cone drill … 390-pound bench press … 500-pound squat … 210-pound snatch … 300-pound power clean … 35-inch vertical jump … 9'0" broad jump … 31 Ύ-inch arm length … 9 Ύ-inch hands … Right-handed.

That said, all that proves is there is a ton more to being a good runner than speed because Carr while mobile will never be confused with the running talent VY has.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 04:30 PM
He did pretty much what I thought. Threw the ball well, confirmed his spot as a legitimate top 10 pick and did nothing to hurt his stock.

I believe he will go #7 to the Raiders

Huge
03-22-2006, 04:30 PM
I think that pretty much settles it, Reggie McNeal is the better QB because his 40 time smoked Vince Young's.

:rolleyes:

jerek
03-22-2006, 04:30 PM
I found this posted on UT football board. I thought it was a great article about VY. It was written by a local high coach who had to devise a plan to defend against VY. I hope the Texans are paying attention.

:fans:




"I have been coaching football for many years and I have never had to gameplan for a player like we did for VY as a senior at Madison. I coach at a "speed" school and we had never seen anyone like him. We had several guys run in the high 4.4's low 4.5's on the team (handheld watches) and we were still aghast at his speed.

I was actually at the Dome his senior year waiting for Madison to complete their practice so we could have ours (they were preparing for Katy and us for Northshore). All of the coaches, some of them had been coaching for 30+ years, all stared in amazement at him running around the field. We knew then that we would be in for the longest of long afternoons when we sat down to devise a plan to defend him.

I have never seen anyone with his speed and size on a football field and regardless of his 40 "time" he will never be caught from behind and he is so strong that any contact made while he is gaining momentum is normally shrugged off or has minimal effect on him gaining speed. Any coach/scout who concerns himself with his speed on a timing day need only get on field level during game time to fully undertand what he is capable of. "

Are you ****ting me? Who in the NFL couldn't you have said this kind of thing about when they were in HS? This means what, exactly? It's another opinion, but you quote it as if it is supposed to impress someone that a high school coach on a UT website said this. It doesn't.

Don't forget leader. He has great leadership.

Besides, I heard he was tired from delivering babies all night at the county hospital, and that was right before he parted the Rio Grande so some nice families could make it across safely.

The guy is a great athlete, there is no dispute about that. I think what most people on this board are tired of is all the grandstanding and leg humping that make it sound like he is the greatest player ever and he will change the league, adding to that the idea that everytime he does something that isn't quite perfect you have people rushing to cover and make excuses.

The 40 was skewed because the grass was too long.
The Wonderlic was bad because they misgraded.
His passes are off because of this.
Blahzee-Blah-Blah.

I wish him all the luck in the world. He will play for someone, and play well. He will be awesome and amazing and you will see flash bulbs everytime he plays. I just don't want him playing for Houston.

I second the motion.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 04:30 PM
Rumors from a UT paysite..Said Jerry Rhome reported that Young 55/57 good passes (some drops)...The site said various people not paid by Vince Young thought he threw well with good accuracy and strength. Overall, a very good work out, but did not blow people away.

Apparently, did nothing to hurt himself.

What I heard Zerlein say (may have missed part of the clip--I am sure they will replay it) was he did very well on all the west coast offense throws--short to intermediate throws. Did less well on 20 yd crossing route (underthrown) and 20 yd come back.

2nd clip: Said talked to some scouts and showed the difference between amateur and professional eye--nothing bad to say talking to scouts but nothing wowed. Big issue by a couple scouts was the work out was very protective/scripted to keep VY from throwing routes he couldn't throw well. One scout not in the VY hunt said he would have been very ticked off if they had actually been interested but a team interested could have him in for a private work out. One scout noted VY throws as well as Delhomme but doesn't panic like Vick--same scout was dissappointed VY didn't do all the agility drills especially with McNair sitting there.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 04:39 PM
I've said this before (many times) and I'll say it again just for you ... here's my opinion in an easy to read format

1) Give Carr a chance with a real offense and a real offensive scheme
2) Draft Bush because IMO Kubiak's offensive scheme is tailor-made for his cutback ability and Kubiak is imaginative enough to use him correctly
3) Young is the second or third best QB in this draft almost everywhere except Southeast Texas


My disdain for the Young disciples is approached but not surpassed by the Carr apologists. The blame for last year's debacle should be spread around.

awaiting your witty reply ....

If you spent more time reading my posts and less time snipping quotes from different forums you would know that I am not a VY disciple nor a Carr apologist. Snip away.

El Amigo Invisible
03-22-2006, 04:45 PM
He may be the best thing that could have happened for football:yahoo:

Htown34s
03-22-2006, 04:54 PM
how about us "his management is minor league" crowd? he's not running, he's running, he runs a 4.57 .... is that what was expected? I thought he was in the 4.45 range?

Never happy are you? Geez your hating is getting old.

I liked how you trashed him about not running before he actually ran. That was great. Can't miss a chance to hate on someone huh? I am SO glad you're a Texan fan.

Look, VY is a playmaker. If he gets a chance he will make plays in the NFL. Everyone can nit-pick all they want in the mean time.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:04 PM
Questioning anything to do with Young is almost always considered hating ....

I said that I thought he should've run but that if he did not it was irrelevant to his eventual draft position ... he ran and I was surprised it was 4.57 because in reading some of the propaganda on this board I expected it to be in the 4.4 range ....

I questioned his management team ...

I think Bush is a better fit for the Texans (as is MWilliams, DBrick, and AJHawk) ....

I've said over and over that he's extremely talented but isn't the right fit for the 2006 Texans ....

if all that is hating then, fire away ....

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:05 PM
If you spent more time reading my posts and less time snipping quotes from different forums you would know that I am not a VY disciple nor a Carr apologist. Snip away.


I have read a good number of your posts .... my post in no way hinted at you being a VY disciple or a Carr apologist ...

Frills
03-22-2006, 05:10 PM
I hereby give VY props for running today

ya I of all people said that

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 05:20 PM
Why wouldn't you? It was timed at UT. If there is one place on the planet where timekeepers err on the side of VInce, it is there.

Or are you saying don't hold much weight because Vince didn't try? Wtf would he run it for if he wasn't going all out?

Or maybe it is just part of the ongoing conspiracy to discredit Vince? nfl.com is in on the action now? Vince ran this in front of a crew of scouts and personnel: it isn't a guy scoring it in a backroom somewhere.

Incredible the lengths people will go to. VY drinkers are ten times worse than the "Carr lovers" because it isn't even a case of questioning intangibles or things on which opinions can exist and differ, but you want to question a forty-time on the UT campus of all places.

Unbelievable. Or maybe I am just overreacting. Please clarify.


lol... you sure have a lot of pent up anger over something so stupid.

a time comes out like 10 minutes after he runs in front of 50 or so people, and you want to take that as a concrete time?

this isnt the combine, its guys with stopwatches. the 4.57 could be the slowest time anyone recorded, and if it was someone like you writing the times, that is the time that would go down.



its people like you that jump on every attempt to make fun of vince that are so annoying. first the "6" and you go and make an avatar and call him a retard. then a 4.57 forty and people are saying Carr is faster than vince. we know we're not drafting vince, but seriously get over your hatred of a guy who has done nothing to you.

TexasDiehard
03-22-2006, 05:21 PM
Not surprisingly, the Texans showed up in force today at the UT pro day with the sole purpose of creating the impression that they seriously considered Vince Young.

After attending the UT pro day today, Ed Werner said on his Dan Patrick appearance:

"he got the impression that "the Texans were looking to make the case to their fans why they will not draft Vince Young" a little convoluted, but that is what he said. he believes they are all there so they can say, "we really scouted him. but we are going with bush"

Pathetic. No amount of this kind of PR nonsense will distract from the fact that they are going to make the dumbest PR and draft mistake in the history of the NFL by passing on Vince Young. I guess if 80%+ of Houstonians want the Texans to take Vince Young and you can't make your case with logic, then you have to be dishonest. I can hardly wait to see the false public praise of VY coming from the Texans which will then be followed by the dropping of back door negatives about Vince Young to the press. The problem with this approach is that it assumes Houstonians are dumber than they are which is a impossible on its face.

Way to go Bob! I guess you just have to make sure you stamp as much remaining goodwill as you can instead of doing the obvious.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:23 PM
wow ... way to represent ....:rolleyes:

Porky
03-22-2006, 05:24 PM
(there is a thread discussing this in the proper forum)

I don't disagree with part of your conclusion. I already called this a "dog and pony show".

As to the rest of your diatribe, well let's just say you have seen one tsip with a wunderlich of 6, you have seen them all. :brickwall

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 05:25 PM
We have our QB in Carr. Why spend another 8 million dollars for a guy to sit the bench? ~19 million out of a 102 million cap is ridiculous to have at the QB position.

TexanSam
03-22-2006, 05:25 PM
I don't know how you can say it's going to be the biggest draft mistake in history if we don't take Vince Young. Last I looked, neither Vince nor Reggie had played a down in the NFL. So how it's a mistake is beyond me.

By the way,Vince Young, in a lot of mock drafts, and by other teams apparently, isn't rated as high as Matt Leinart and in some cases Jay Cutler.

Porky
03-22-2006, 05:32 PM
I hate to say this, but I am actually beginning to hate Vince Young, the thought of him in Steel blue is beginning to turn my stomach. I was a huge VY booster in Jan, but his fans are just a total turnoff to me. I am also a big Texas fan. Root for them every game. But, If these are the kind of fans we are going to add to the bandwagon, let Possum Holler or some other locale far, far away have them. Seriousely.

I am relishing the thought of laughing my *** off as team after team passes on VY, and the burnt orange faces get redder and redder until they explode. :yahoo:

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 05:33 PM
I hate to say this, but I am actually beginning to hate Vince Young, the thought of him in Steel blue is beginning to turn my stomach. I was a huge VY booster in Jan, but his fans are just a total turnoff to me. I am also a big Texas fan. Root for them every game. But, If these are the kind of fans we are going to add to the bandwagon, let Possum Holler or some other locale far, far away have them. Seriousely.

I am relishing the thought of laughing my *** off as team after team passes on VY, and the burnt orange faces get redder and redder until they explode. :yahoo:

what are you talking about? there is ONE person who could be viewed as a blind VY supporter.

yet there are 10+ blind VY detractors, and this ONE guy makes you hate him?

right...

Htown34s
03-22-2006, 05:37 PM
After attending the UT pro day today, Ed Werner said on his Dan Patrick appearance:

"he got the impression that "the Texans were looking to make the case to their fans why they will not draft Vince Young" a little convoluted, but that is what he said. he believes they are all there so they can say, "we really scouted him. but we are going with bush"

If so, its a smart move on McNair's (or whomever's) part. Can't deny that there is a portion of fans who want their man, and having a good excuse can save their butts later.

beerlover
03-22-2006, 05:43 PM
If so, its a smart move on McNair's (or whomever's) part. Can't deny that there is a portion of fans who want their man, and having a good excuse can save their butts later.

pre-emptive damage control :stirpot:

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:46 PM
winning is in it's nature, damage control .... if the 2006 Texans are successful, then a large majority of the fans will be ok with whoever we pick .... if the 2006 Texans, suck then all bets are off, IMO

Porky
03-22-2006, 05:47 PM
what are you talking about? there is ONE person who could be viewed as a blind VY supporter.

yet there are 10+ blind VY detractors, and this ONE guy makes you hate him?

right...

Apparently, you haven't been paying attention. Almost daily we get a post similar to this one. A bunch of UT blinders with an IQ as big as Vince's foot size, that come here and act like a bunch of two year olds throwing a temper tantrum. What a big bunch of cry babies. Yes, THOSE people are making me hate him.

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 05:49 PM
Apparently, you haven't been paying attention. Almost daily we get a post similar to this one. A bunch of UT blinders with an IQ as big as Vince's foot size, that come here and act like a bunch of two year olds throwing a temper tantrum. What a big bunch of cry babies. Yes, THOSE people are making me hate him.


give me a break. for every "GET VINCE OR ELSE hook'em!!" post there are "10 VINCE YOUNG SUX GIG EM!!!1"

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 05:51 PM
I hate to say this, but I am actually beginning to hate Vince Young, the thought of him in Steel blue is beginning to turn my stomach. I was a huge VY booster in Jan, but his fans are just a total turnoff to me. I am also a big Texas fan. Root for them every game. But, If these are the kind of fans we are going to add to the bandwagon, let Possum Holler or some other locale far, far away have them. Seriousely.

I am relishing the thought of laughing my *** off as team after team passes on VY, and the burnt orange faces get redder and redder until they explode. :yahoo:Join the club, I'm a huge Texas fan and appreciate everything VY did for texas, but his fans or "trolls" that flooded the board are starting to make me sick. I can't wait for the draft to come and pass.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 05:53 PM
If so, its a smart move on McNair's (or whomever's) part. Can't deny that there is a portion of fans who want their man, and having a good excuse can save their butts later.

Honestly, that's the impression I was getting from the beginning. The Texans would draft me #1 before they draft Vince at #1. I have no problem with them setting up smoke screens but they can do that with other players, too. That is ticking me off more than anything about this whole process. The fact that the Texans had to intention to pick him at all. It just seems as if they are playing some of the fans, and VY, for fools.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 05:53 PM
I can't wait for the draft to come and pass.


amen brother

Grid
03-22-2006, 05:55 PM
give me a break. for every "GET VINCE OR ELSE hook'em!!" post there are "10 VINCE YOUNG SUX GIG EM!!!1"


I think the only people on these boards who use the rivalry as an excuse... are UT fans.

I havent seen any Aggies on here spouting nonsense because they dont want a UT guy on their team.

Kinda ironic that you claim the UT/A&M rivalry is the root of all the problems... and you are the only guy that acknowledges the rivalry on these boards :P

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 05:55 PM
give me a break. for every "GET VINCE OR ELSE hook'em!!" post there are "10 VINCE YOUNG SUX GIG EM!!!1"Yeah I know, its that aggie conspiracy again :rolleyes:

kbourda
03-22-2006, 05:55 PM
Apparently, you haven't been paying attention. Almost daily we get a post similar to this one. A bunch of UT blinders with an IQ as big as Vince's foot size, that come here and act like a bunch of two year olds throwing a temper tantrum. What a big bunch of cry babies. Yes, THOSE people are making me hate him.

You don't like him cause you felt he disrespected Bush (the president). You are so fake it isn't even funny.

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 05:56 PM
I havent seen any Aggies on here spouting nonsense because they dont want a UT guy on their team.



?????????????????? did you really just say that?

Grid
03-22-2006, 05:57 PM
Honestly, that's the impression I was getting from the beginning. The Texans would draft me #1 before they draft Vince at #1. I have no problem with them setting up smoke screens but they can do that with other players, too. That is ticking me off more than anything about this whole process. The fact that the Texans had to intention to pick him at all. It just seems as if they are playing some of the fans, and VY, for fools.

I dont think there is any reason to take it personally. Its not like on the flight over there they were belly laughing at all the fans who are gonna think we will draft VY. They went there because they dont want the fans to think that they arent even going to consider a hometown prospect like him. It was more of a kindness than a stab in the back.

Porky
03-22-2006, 05:57 PM
give me a break. for every "GET VINCE OR ELSE hook'em!!" post there are "10 VINCE YOUNG SUX GIG EM!!!1"

Let's see. You have a set of UT horns as your avatar, and I am supposed to believe you are a neutral observer, with no ax to grind. Try again.:ok:

Grid
03-22-2006, 05:57 PM
?????????????????? did you really just say that?

Yes I did... why? is there some proof somewhere that I didnt see?

kbourda
03-22-2006, 05:58 PM
I dont think there is any reason to take it personally. Its not like on the flight over there they were belly laughing at all the fans who are gonna think we will draft VY. They went there because they dont want the fans to think that they arent even going to consider a hometown prospect like him. It was more of a kindness than a stab in the back.

So is it fair for me to call it a "token" visit? That's all I see it as.

stevo3883
03-22-2006, 05:59 PM
Let's see. You have a set of UT horns as your avatar, and I am supposed to believe you are a neutral observer, with no ax to grind. Try again.:ok:


considering I want the team to get Bush.

yeah, im really grinding that axe.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:01 PM
I dont think there is any reason to take it personally. Its not like on the flight over there they were belly laughing at all the fans who are gonna think we will draft VY. They went there because they dont want the fans to think that they arent even going to consider a hometown prospect like him. It was more of a kindness than a stab in the back.

I understand what you're saying but i'd perfer the brutal honesty.

MikeMc
03-22-2006, 06:02 PM
WOW, VY ran a 4.58 40.....very avg/slow for a "great athlete". A RB runs a 4.58 (call it 4.6), it is sloooow!


Not the 4.2 that Jose Canseco.....errrrr.....VYoung said he could run!

Grid
03-22-2006, 06:03 PM
So is it fair for me to call it a "token" visit? That's all I see it as.

I wouldnt necessarily call it a token visit. We would have had people there regardless. We just sent in the head honchos to make sure it was recognized that we were there and giving him a serious look.

If you were doing a project for your boss.. and he was sitting in your office while you were doing it.. would you make sure that you were diligently working on the project and giving it your full attention, or would you skim over it while you talked on the phone? Thats all it is.. making sure that the fans realize that they are taking it seriously...even though they arent incredibly interested.

El Amigo Invisible
03-22-2006, 06:03 PM
Aggies come on now! This is not A & M vs UT . Vince is a freak of nature! You know he can BALL.: Don't hate him because he was a Longhorn and you can't stand to see him in a Texan uniform. I love A & M football but the fans have got to grow up and start showing some love for his ability lead us to a Superbowl.That is the most important thing , isn't it? Go Texans!!!!:redtowel:

chuckm
03-22-2006, 06:03 PM
WOW, VY ran a 4.58 40.....very avg/slow for a "great athlete". A RB runs a 4.58 (call it 4.6), it is sloooow!


Not the 4.2 that Jose Canseco.....errrrr.....VYoung said he could run!


oh Mike ... take it back

Grid
03-22-2006, 06:04 PM
btw.. for the people who want to say "he just takes longer to reach full speed".. so do Mathis and AJ.. watch them at at fastest man competition at the probowl. They will be in last coming off the line..and pass people up about midway. They dont run 4.58s.

Porky
03-22-2006, 06:05 PM
You don't like him cause you felt he disrespected Bush (the president). You are so fake it isn't even funny.

I dare you to go back in my profile and look up some of my posts from around January. You have absouletely no idea how wrong you are. I was leaning toward drafting Young in January. This has nothing to do with Bush, or any disrespect. Find one post I have ever made that even mentions the subject. Go ahead, I dare ya. :challenge

jerek
03-22-2006, 06:11 PM
lol... you sure have a lot of pent up anger over something so stupid.

a time comes out like 10 minutes after he runs in front of 50 or so people, and you want to take that as a concrete time?

this isnt the combine, its guys with stopwatches. the 4.57 could be the slowest time anyone recorded, and if it was someone like you writing the times, that is the time that would go down.



its people like you that jump on every attempt to make fun of vince that are so annoying. first the "6" and you go and make an avatar and call him a retard. then a 4.57 forty and people are saying Carr is faster than vince. we know we're not drafting vince, but seriously get over your hatred of a guy who has done nothing to you.

I made the avatar because I derive twisted pleasure in reading sub-literate posts attacking my avatar. Proves my point, or just an observation? You decide.

As far as this "hatred" you speak of ... how could any of my words be construed as hatred? And how do I "jump on every attempt?" Were you looking for the word "opportunity," or was the self-contradiction intentional?

Vince is a cool guy. Never done a thing to me, never would, and if I saw him in the HEB tomorrow, I'd congratulate him on kicking my USC team's asses all over the field, and wish him good luck in his pro game. I have stated over and over again that I think he is a good player who will probably do well in the NFL, possibly very well.

Making fun of him is how I get my jollies. No, seriously, his work since the Rose Bowl practically satirizes itself, and my jibes are debatedly far less "hateful" than most of the crap leveled at guys like Carr, and yet you say nary a peep about that. If David Carr showed up to the White House in sweats or scored a retard's rank on an IQ test, I would make fun of him for it too.

Does that make you a hypocrite, or are we two hypocrites pointing the proverbial finger at each other right now?

Seriously, I enjoy the football talk, and jokes about VY are just that: jokes. Don't get lost in the words as to their meaning there, Steve-O.

As far as VY's 40 time: I know that different people time it differently, and obviously, the 4.57 is hardly "concrete." I just find it odd, humorous, and sad that the tsips rush to question the 4.57 and point out that it is obviously false, but those same tsips will sit here and outright invent stories about David Carr and his film study habits and his teammates hating him, or Reggie Bush and his gang ties or one of a hundred other ridiculous lies I have read here in recent weeks, let alone the fradulently slanted opinions in favor of drafting Vince Young or castrating our collective self in repentance for not doing so. In this case, I know you are a proponent of Bush, and if anything, this is something we pretty much agree on - though I would still love to see Mario Williams a Texan in 06.

Keep on churning, if it is working for you it works for me.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:11 PM
I wouldnt necessarily call it a token visit. We would have had people there regardless. We just sent in the head honchos to make sure it was recognized that we were there and giving him a serious look.

If you were doing a project for your boss.. and he was sitting in your office while you were doing it.. would you make sure that you were diligently working on the project and giving it your full attention, or would you skim over it while you talked on the phone? Thats all it is.. making sure that the fans realize that they are taking it seriously...even though they arent incredibly interested.

Sorry, I should clarify myself. Bob McNair going is making it look like a token visit. I know he'll probably go with the FO to see Bush. But why stop there? If you want the fans to believe you are really evaluating all options on the best guy, do it for Leinart, Ferguson, etc.

CarrIsFine
03-22-2006, 06:13 PM
Vince's biggest problem is his agent with no experience. Has he dropped this guy yet? The wonderlic incident and not doing a full workout are the result of bad management.

Telling everyone to wait until pro day to see VY and then having him skip common workouts is not smart. There goes another million.

El Amigo Invisible
03-22-2006, 06:13 PM
People want to draft Bush because he is well spoken! Oh and that Vince was a horn !:brickwall
Vince is just a product of HISD .How can you hate him for that?

I saw a post earlier about Mario and how he didn't play big against the better schools.
Is that true?

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 06:14 PM
Find one post I have ever made that even mentions the subject. Go ahead, I dare ya. :challenge

You mean other than this one:

This is the first thing he has done that has really bothered me. I can't say I was wild about gouging for his sig, or how the very first thing he did was go out and buy an expensive sports car, but those were just the marks of someone getting money for the first time, and I overlooked them. But, when you go to meet the President at the White House, show some friggin respect, and wear a suit. Is that too much to ask? While I can appreciate the differences between the NFL and his private life, it says something to me, and it's not good. You have to conform on a football team too, and play by the rules, and show respect to the coaches and elders on the team. It gives me the feeling he thinks the rules may not apply to him because he is BMOC. No one player is above the team, and when you see every single one of these young men show the proper respect at the WH, and then you see him in casual clothes, it shows a complete lack of maturity and understanding. While I am still not entirely opposed to us drafting him, it's made me really think, and I am now teetering for sure. I guess it's safe to say I am off the "draft Vince" bandwagon. And, it's enough for me to change my avatar, which I will do some time today.

:stirpot:

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:14 PM
I dare you to go back in my profile and look up some of my posts from around January. You have absouletely no idea how wrong you are. I was leaning toward drafting Young in January. This has nothing to do with Bush, or any disrespect. Find one post I have ever made that even mentions the subject. Go ahead, I dare ya. :challenge

I read your post when this whole "Vince didn't wear a suit to see Bush, BS". You know I have no problem putting you on blast. I dare you to go back and read it.

Dunta_23
03-22-2006, 06:15 PM
I really dont think that anyone hates Vince Young...and if they do it has nothing to do with him, and only to do with the "Vince Young is God crowd" that is on the message board. I have to agree that I watched the Rose Bowl and was in awe of his performance but I am also not naive enough to think that he can do that in the NFL. He may have been a great college player but I take NFL scouts and front offices opinions in higher regards than to fans of a certain player on a message board.

Before the Rose Bowl....Texans fans were DREAMING about Reggie Bush, and then in 1 nite, Vince had a great game and this place became a Vince vs. Reggie war. The only thing wierd to me is that if we need a QB so bad that we must draft Vince why would we not go with the higher rated QB's in the draft..which by MOST peoples account is Matt Leinart...It only makes sense to take the best player at his position if you are drafting for that position right?

I posted earlier that I thought Vince would run a 4.54 because I have seen him run and it isnt 4.-4.4 material that we have heard he can run by some people on the board...I also said that he would be copping out if he didnt run at his pro day because he brings that element to the table as a QB...if all other QB's are running then why shouldn't he if he is the best? His reported 4.57? is quick but is similar to a player like Marcus Vick...fast but not lightning fast or electric...

This thread has totally gotten away from Texas' pro day and has become nothing but bashing of boardmembers of who said what and who hates who and what not...So can we get it back to talking about what the players did today :redtowel:

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:15 PM
You mean other than this one:



:stirpot:

Should I even bother making a reply to this?

gtexan02
03-22-2006, 06:17 PM
They were both interviewed for about 30s - 1 minute regarding Vince Young, and said that they were very impressed with his thorwing accuracy and arm strength, and that he was very active and athletic. The commentators went on to comment that he is a proven winner who is calm under pressure (as seen by his apparent 'boredom' during passing drills) and would definitely not rule out the possiblity of Young working out for the Texans in April and convincing them to draft him #1.

We all know that whether or not the Texans really want VY, its a good PR move to go out there and scout out the potential #1 draft choice. Are they going to take him #1? Are they trying to increase interest in him? Who knows, but lets not get into another endless debate about it

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 06:19 PM
You mean other than this one:



:stirpot:

ouch

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:23 PM
OMG. I was just watching Bob McNair on SC. He even sounds like some of you guys (speaking about VY throwing motion). He really sounds like he was schooled on what to say. He honestly gave that look like "I'm here but I was told not to say anything encouraging when a camera was put in my face." It's sad when the National Media can see that the owner was there only to make excuses not to draft this guy (according to Salisbury). Salisbury said he had an excellent workout.

infantrycak
03-22-2006, 06:24 PM
Should I even bother making a reply to this?

Probably not productive.

Frankly JMO but folks are throwing around way, way too many accusations in the VY discussions. There are far less haters than alleged--everyone who discusses VY being anything less than perfect or the best ever or the only choice is not a hater. There are far less blind followers/UT blind fans than alleged as well--VY legitimately deserves to be considered by the teams at the top of the draft. IMO the discussion would be much better if folks would stop labeling, hurling insults, calling people racist, etc. and just discussed the subject without all the emotional baggage.

Dunta_23
03-22-2006, 06:28 PM
Probably not productive.

Frankly JMO but folks are throwing around way, way too many accusations in the VY discussions. There are far less haters than alleged--everyone who discusses VY being anything less than perfect or the best ever or the only choice is not a hater. There are far less blind followers/UT blind fans than alleged as well--VY legitimately deserves to be considered by the teams at the top of the draft. IMO the discussion would be much better if folks would stop labeling, hurling insults, calling people racist, etc. and just discussed the subject without all the emotional baggage.

Very well said

El Amigo Invisible
03-22-2006, 06:30 PM
Where are all the DD supporters? We were dreaming about drafting Bush ??!!?? It was all about how many OT's are coming out and why we drafted TJ instead of Jamal ( The Guy New Orleans drafted). What about DJ??? KC will never part with him . Oh how I hate what CC has done to our wonderful team!!!

Grid
03-22-2006, 06:30 PM
OMG. I was just watching Bob McNair on SC. He even sounds like some of you guys (speaking about VY throwing motion). He really sounds like he was schooled on what to say. He honestly gave that look like "I'm here but I was told not to say anything encouraging when a camera was put in my face." It's sad when the National Media can see that the owner was there only to make excuses not to draft this guy (according to Salisbury). Salisbury said he had an excellent workout.

Was there a black helicopter hovering silently behind him? Maybe a couple guys in black suits wrestling an alien in the background. Or perhaps a guy standing on a grassy knoll with a rifle. Big foot? Area 51?

its all a conspiracy!

:spy:

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 06:31 PM
Was listening to the radio on the way home and some dude Ketchum from rival sports was giving his take, here are some comments (I caught it in the middle):

- no one he talked to brought up the wonderlic
- Mean Joe Greene commented on VY playing with the crowd that if you can't have fun, then how will you have fun playing football.
- 55 out of 57 passes completed


- Ahmad Hall turned some heads with a great workout. May be a late 2nd day or FA now.
- Jon Scott's father said it was more important to go with the right team. They are planning on a 1st day call.

Not a lot here, but thought I would share.

MightyTExan
03-22-2006, 06:33 PM
'I love this guy,' Texans coach Kubiak says of ex-Longhorns quarterback

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11964367/


/runs

jerek
03-22-2006, 06:33 PM
Probably not productive.

Frankly JMO but folks are throwing around way, way too many accusations in the VY discussions. There are far less haters than alleged--everyone who discusses VY being anything less than perfect or the best ever or the only choice is not a hater. There are far less blind followers/UT blind fans than alleged as well--VY legitimately deserves to be considered by the teams at the top of the draft. IMO the discussion would be much better if folks would stop labeling, hurling insults, calling people racist, etc. and just discussed the subject without all the emotional baggage.

Agreed, and even I do my part to perpetuate the mud slinging. Apologies to the good posters (and there are quite a few) for my role in the bickering.

Truth be told, I post because I enjoy talking football and learning with the good posters. Forgive me if I am still so easily amused as to take shots.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:34 PM
Probably not productive.

Frankly JMO but folks are throwing around way, way too many accusations in the VY discussions. There are far less haters than alleged--everyone who discusses VY being anything less than perfect or the best ever or the only choice is not a hater. There are far less blind followers/UT blind fans than alleged as well--VY legitimately deserves to be considered by the teams at the top of the draft. IMO the discussion would be much better if folks would stop labeling, hurling insults, calling people racist, etc. and just discussed the subject without all the emotional baggage.

I agree with that. But I don't feel that most VY detractors won't be man or woman enough to admit that he indeed deserves to be considered for the #1 pick.

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 06:35 PM
OMG. I was just watching Bob McNair on SC. He even sounds like some of you guys (speaking about VY throwing motion). He really sounds like he was schooled on what to say. He honestly gave that look like "I'm here but I was told not to say anything encouraging when a camera was put in my face." It's sad when the National Media can see that the owner was there only to make excuses not to draft this guy (according to Salisbury). Salisbury said he had an excellent workout.

I'm not trying to say your wrong or anything, but you should never use Salisbury as a source to anything, that guy is absolutely worthless.

He also said Young had unworldly arm strength or something like that and even the biggest Young homer knows he doesn't have a elite arm.

It doesn't matter what Sean is talking about he has to over hype it (I'm not talking about Vince's workout, because I didn't see it, just what he said about his arm strength). Sean is a tool, that has lost all credibility.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:37 PM
Was there a black helicopter hovering silently behind him? Maybe a couple guys in black suits wrestling an alien in the background. Or perhaps a guy standing on a grassy knoll with a rifle. Big foot? Area 51?

its all a conspiracy!

:spy:

See, now you trying to be funny.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 06:38 PM
Agreed, and even I do my part to perpetuate the mud slinging. Apologies to the good posters (and there are quite a few) for my role in the bickering.

Truth be told, I post because I enjoy talking football and learning with the good posters. Forgive me if I am still so easily amused as to take shots.

Does this mean we aren't going to need the virtual guilliotine? I hate mea culpas (not that I was looking for one). :)

Porky
03-22-2006, 06:38 PM
I read your post when this whole "Vince didn't wear a suit to see Bush, BS". You know I have no problem putting you on blast. I dare you to go back and read it.

Okay, now I am confused. When you said Vince disrecpected the President I thought you were referring to Reggie Bush, whose nickname is the President. I thought you meant that I had stated Vince disrespected Bush somehow. Now, I see you were actually referring to his lack of suit and tie at the Whitehouse. To be honest, I had pretty much forgotten about that, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the reason I don't want him. I wasn't wild about that no. But, after thinking it over (ask Vinny, I discussed with him) I wasn't AS upset about it as it seemed in that post. At this point, here is how I feel:

I just don't want his fans to be Texans fans. Seriousely. 90% of them are arrogant childish jerks. Not all, but enough to wear and grate on my nerves. I have just had enough. I am waving the white flag. I surrender. You have made me do something I didn't think possible. Every man has his breaking point, his ephinany if you will, his straw that broke his camel's back. I am ready to turn on Vince just for the sheer pleasure of rubbing it in the T-Sips noses. And, yes, I was a big Vince, and UT fan all year, and was wildly happy when they won the Championship, but I almost now wish they hadn't so these numbskulls wouldn't have the pleasure.

Grid
03-22-2006, 06:41 PM
Honestly.. I dont think Young needs to be considered for the #1 pick. I am not a Young hater. Meaning, i dont have any preconceived notions about him or groundless hatreds that keep me from thinking of him as #1 talent.

I dont like how he has presented himself, and I dont think he has the right skillset to be a #1 pick. If he wasnt from Houston, I doubt he would even be considered a possible top 5 pick. With New Orleans getting Brees.. Young will not be picked ahead of Bush, Lienart, Ferguson, or Williams. That leaves him as POSSIBLY the #5 pick. Green Bay isnt going to take him though.. so he will fall to #6.. San Fran isnt going to take him..so he will fall to #7. Oakland I see as the first real opportunity he has to get drafted. If Oakland doesnt take him..he MAY get grabbed by Arizona. If Arizona passes..he is out of the top 10.


That is my take on it. I dont need to go into WHY I think he isnt #1 talent.. ive gone over it before. Plus, I need to get to class :)

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:42 PM
I'm not trying to say your wrong or anything, but you should never use Salisbury of a sourse to anything, that guy is absolutely worthless.

He also said Young had unworldly arm strength or something like that and even the biggest Young homer knows he doesn't have a elite arm.

It doesn't matter what Sean is talking about he has to over hype it (I'm not talking about Vince's workout, because I didn't see it, just what he said about his arm strength). Sean is a tool, that has lost all credibility.

Anyone that knows me knows I abhor Salisbury. He made the comment based on what he saw. I hardly consider his words to be the "perse" Gospel, especially considering that he was a career journeyman/ 2nd string QB. So should I be worried that our HC was the same? J/K

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 06:42 PM
Okay, now I am confused. When you said Vince disrecpected the President I thought you were referring to Reggie Bush, whose nickname is the President. I thought you meant that I had stated Vince disrespected Bush somehow. Now, I see you were actually referring to his lack of suit and tie at the Whitehouse. To be honest, I had pretty much forgotten about that, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the reason I don't want him. I wasn't wild about that no. But, after thinking it over (ask Vinny, I discussed with him) I wasn't AS upset about it as it seemed in that post. At this point, here is how I feel:

I just don't want his fans to be Texans fans. Seriousely. 90% of them are arrogant childish jerks. Not all, but enough to wear and grate on my nerves. I have just had enough. I am waving the white flag. I surrender. You have made me do something I didn't think possible. Every man has his breaking point, his ephinany if you will, his straw that broke his camel's back. I am ready to turn on Vince just for the sheer pleasure of rubbing it in the T-Sips noses. And, yes, I was a big Vince, and UT fan all year, and was wildly happy when they won the Championship, but I almost now wish they hadn't so these numbskulls wouldn't have the pleasure.

Yep the guilliotine is going back in the closest. Maybe we can bring it out on the next blood boiling pro day, USC. :)

Grid
03-22-2006, 06:42 PM
See, now you trying to be funny.

"Trying" being the key word :redtowel:

Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 06:45 PM
“I love this guy. He’s got a big arm,” Texans coach Gary Kubiak said, the newspaper reported. “He was very impressive.”
__________

With the #1 pick the Houston Texans select VINCE YOUNG...





/sprints off with sub 4.5 40 burst

:stirpot: :)

Tha_Tinman
03-22-2006, 06:46 PM
I agree with that. But I don't feel that most VY detractors won't be man or woman enough to admit that he indeed deserves to be considered for the #1 pick.

Ya know what ...I'm certainly all for taking Vince with the pick. I think he's the truth.

But take him ...pass on him ...trade the pick ...hell even forfeit the draft ...You just gotta love the way this whole thing is playing out.

I mean, after the Rose Bowl ...Vince leaps from being a potential late 1st round early 2nd round pick to a LOCK for the top 3 picks.

He is rumored to have bombed on the Wonderlic (I never even heard of that thing til now) AND some key Free Agency moves with QBs and his stock plummets ...now he's maybe not even in the top 10 picks.

AND how does he respond??? He has a near perfect Pro Day ...runs a 4.5 40 ...completes 49 of 54 passes (2 of the INCs were drops).

WOW! Is anybody getting this on tape ...I want the DVD Collection, lol.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:53 PM
“I love this guy. He’s got a big arm,” Texans coach Gary Kubiak said, the newspaper reported. “He was very impressive.”

Hey Carr_Bomb! See what coach said! I tell you the truth, those career back up QB's!

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 06:53 PM
Anyone that knows me knows I abhor Salisbury. He made the comment based on what he saw. I hardly consider his words to be the "perse" Gospel, especially considering that he was a career journeyman/ 2nd string QB. So should I be worried that our HC was the same? J/K

There's no doubt in my mind Vince has enough arm strength to get it done and be successful, but Sean made it sound like he was Elway, which isn't the case.

This is how Sean gets his opinions, he takes someone elses' opinions and then overhypes the same opinions.

He was probably interviewing many of those GMs and Coaches that were shown on the clip saying that Young had a impressive workout and showed solid arm strength (which he does, his arm is solid) and between the time his brain can processes that information and they stick a camera in his face, "Sean's opinion" is that Young has unhuman like arm strength. Sean is the biggest Hack on TV today.

Mel Kiper is the best because he can look through the hype if any player and can give you a well thought out and educated opinion of the true ability of a player and he actually knows what he's talking about.

SESupergenius
03-22-2006, 06:54 PM
I don't care but kbourda wife is hot. (that's a compliment) I can't focus on the discussions when you post a hottie like that.

Anywhoo. Young deserves whatever he can get, if it's a number 1 then fine, but it won't happen because we upped Carr. If we had not upped for Carr then yes I would definitely consider him on of the top two QB's in this draft. He lacks a few skills but really not too many QB's coming out of college don't. The only thing that I am skiddish about is how coaches are going to treat him and his style. If they try to conform him to a certain offensive philosophy based on the coaches way of thinking instead of using Youngs talents as they were in his senior year, then I think it's a wasted pick and will take many years for him to "get it".

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 06:55 PM
Hey Carr_Bomb! See what coach said! I tell you the truth, those career back up QB's! I just said he has a solid arm, big arm and unworldly arm (or whatever that tool said)-two different things

kbourda
03-22-2006, 06:56 PM
There's no doubt in my mind Vince has enough arm strength to get it done and be successful, but Sean made it sound like he was Elway, which isn't the case.

This is how Sean gets his opinions, he takes someone elses' opinions and then overhypes the same opinions.

He was probably interviewing many of those GMs and Coaches that were shown on the clip saying that Young had a impressive workout and showed solid arm strength (which he does, his arm is solid) and between the time his brain can processes that information and they stick a camera in his face, "Sean's opinion" is that Young has unhuman like arm strength. Sean is the biggest Hack on TV today.

Mel Kiper is the best because he can look through the hype if any player and can give you a well thought out and educated opinion of the true ability of a player and he actually knows what he's talking about.

Well, I won't go that far and say Mel Kiper knows what he's talking about. I just like to hear the opinions of players (past and present) when talking about draft prospects.

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 07:01 PM
Well, I won't go that far and say Mel Kiper knows what he's talking about. I just like to hear the opinions of players (past and present) when talking about draft prospects. I'm talking about strictly commentators, Mel Kiper is the smartest one out there at fair evaluations

I agree past players can be insightful, but Sean is horrible, its almost funny listening to his preseason predictions then watching what happens to all his picks, I'm still waiting for him to walk naked from Bristol to D.C.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 07:01 PM
I don't care but kbourda wife is hot. (that's a compliment) I can't focus on the discussions when you post a hottie like that.

Anywhoo. Young deserves whatever he can get, if it's a number 1 then fine, but it won't happen because we upped Carr. If we had not upped for Carr then yes I would definitely consider him on of the top two QB's in this draft. He lacks a few skills but really not too many QB's coming out of college don't. The only thing that I am skiddish about is how coaches are going to treat him and his style. If they try to conform him to a certain offensive philosophy based on the coaches way of thinking instead of using Youngs talents as they were in his senior year, then I think it's a wasted pick and will take many years for him to "get it".

Hey thanks!

That's a concern with Young. The team he goes to will be vital (although not necessary) for his learning curve.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 07:02 PM
I just said he has a solid arm, big arm and unworldly arm (or whatever that tool said)-two different things

BTW I was J/K

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 07:05 PM
You should really go back and read some of the pieces Sean wrote about Vince, before the Rosebowl, you know he's from USC right, its almost laughable the tune he's singing now.

Dr. Toro
03-22-2006, 07:05 PM
I don't think there are any conspiracies going around. I think the biggest haters are in the media. It seems like there are a lot of savvy football fans on here that have concerns about his game translating, love Bush or some other great prospect in this draft, want to get better quickly, and think Carr can be great/good enough. I'm not really concerned with media/pundit reports about VY, because the gametape and stats, the only empirical football data we have, testify to the strength of his game.

Concerning haters in the media, they're all about circulation and hits. As much as some people complain about Justice/McLain in Houston, the opposite is largely true in the national media. Texas antipathy goes a long way, especially in California right now (Cowherd), and Young is an outsider. He is an outgoing, inarticulate (to some), independent minded, inner city Houston kid with an inexperienced agent... do you think Steinberg would let these harsh and oftentimes inaccurate reports slide? He's an easy target. After all the praise he got after the Rose Bowl (which he seemed to earn), he's getting torn down. Part of that is desperate writers, part of that is NFL poker-playing. Look how quickly his passing success has been dismissed? Huh?

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 07:05 PM
BTW I was J/Kits cool

Tha_Tinman
03-22-2006, 07:06 PM
I don't care but kbourda wife is hot. (that's a compliment) I can't focus on the discussions when you post a hottie like that.

Anywhoo. Young deserves whatever he can get, if it's a number 1 then fine, but it won't happen because we upped Carr. If we had not upped for Carr then yes I would definitely consider him on of the top two QB's in this draft. He lacks a few skills but really not too many QB's coming out of college don't. The only thing that I am skiddish about is how coaches are going to treat him and his style. If they try to conform him to a certain offensive philosophy based on the coaches way of thinking instead of using Youngs talents as they were in his senior year, then I think it's a wasted pick and will take many years for him to "get it".


New Orleans picked up Brees and they are STILL rumored to have an interest in Lienart. Now if that be true ...certainly the Texans could still have an interest in Young ...even with David Carr.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 07:07 PM
You should really go back and read some of the pieces Sean wrote about Vince, before the Rosebowl, you know he's from USC right, its almost laughable the tune he's singing now.
You can say that about over 75% of the nation. I've seen em'. I've seen em' all. I have a very good memory (ask Porky).

jerek
03-22-2006, 07:08 PM
I agree with that. But I don't feel that most VY detractors won't be man or woman enough to admit that he indeed deserves to be considered for the #1 pick.

Now this has something to do with manhood? I am going to assume that you were not trying to call "detractors" out by insulting their "manhood," which has little to nothing to do with intelligence and the ability to form a wise opinion. Moving past that ...

Honestly, I think that because of his potential, VY should receive mention and discussion for the #1. That is easy to say. But I'm not sure that - even if we were Carr-less, looking at starting Ragone this year - I would support us drafting Vince over Leinart or Cutler. If by "considered" you mean exactly that - considered - then of course, I agree with you, he should be considered. That's where it stops for me, after consideration.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 07:09 PM
New Orleans picked up Brees and they are STILL rumored to have an interest in Lienart. Now if that be true ...certainly the Texans could still have an interest in Young ...even with David Carr.

Though that could be true in the Saints case, in our case, I don't see it. Brees has 10 mil guaranteed for 1 year. After that, all bets are off!

tulexan
03-22-2006, 07:09 PM
New Orleans picked up Brees and they are STILL rumored to have an interest in Lienart. Now if that be true ...certainly the Texans could still have an interest in Young ...even with David Carr.


Brees' contract is structured in a way that it is in effect a one year deal with an option to extend it to a six year deal. Carr's contract is structured much differently.

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 07:10 PM
You can say that about over 75% of the nation. I've seen em'. I've seen em' all. I have a very good memory (ask Porky).Thats true, I loved seeing the rug pulled out from underneath them. I taped the "Greatest team ever" crap they shoved down our throats for a week and taped the Rosebowl right behind it, about every two weeks I put it on, I never get tired of watching that tape.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 07:14 PM
Now this has something to do with manhood? I am going to assume that you were not trying to call "detractors" out by insulting their "manhood," which has little to nothing to do with intelligence and the ability to form a wise opinion. Moving past that ...

Honestly, I think that because of his potential, VY should receive mention and discussion for the #1. That is easy to say. But I'm not sure that - even if we were Carr-less, looking at starting Ragone this year - I would support us drafting Vince over Leinart or Cutler. If by "considered" you mean exactly that - considered - then of course, I agree with you, he should be considered. That's where it stops for me, after consideration.

Where did you come from? Why are you always reading into something other than what people post. I guess in your mind it's making an attempt (albeit weak) to try and justify your posts with no substance. I've been past that.....

kbourda
03-22-2006, 07:15 PM
Brees' contract is structured in a way that it is in effect a one year deal with an option to extend it to a six year deal. Carr's contract is structured much differently.

I thought it was something like that. So I can see why they may draft Leinart still.

Nighthawk
03-22-2006, 07:19 PM
This is what I don't like about Vince and what I like about Jay Cutler.

Could Cutler potentially hurt his stock by participating in all of these drills? Sure, but at least people know.

Some people just don't "get it." Cutler was a nobody, a low draft choice, maybe 2nd round. He had EVERYTHING to prove at the combine and so he worked out and did well. Now he's a top 3 QB. He probably COULD NOT have hurt his stock at the combine because his stock was so low.

Vince Young is a different case entirely. He had a brilliant season capped by an out-of-this-world performance in the Rose Bowl, probably a little more difficult venue than the combine. He ran, he threw, he QB'd the offense, he did everything and if you were grading him on a scale of 100 points for that performance you could not possibly drop below 98-99.

Since then, Vince has not done so well. He made a mistake in representation which just shows that he's a little more unsophisticated than you would like, he's not already a professional player with a professional's view of the game. Then he gets the lousy Wonderlic score, and he's black, so everyone assumes he's not the brightest light on the tree. Then he doesn't work out at the combine and people start whispering he's hiding something.

Bottom line, the football people really already know pretty much what they need to know about Vince Young. If they want a personal workout (as the Titans apparently do) they get it.

I've said before I think the Texans are fools to pass on him, because he alone has the chance to be the mold-breaker in the NFL. But I agree, it's a terrific risk. Maybe he'll only turn out real good. Or worse, a bust (though that seems far-fetched even to his most avid haters).

The Texans real difficulty is they don't WANT a brilliant QB under Kubiak, they want a pretty good, careful, sufficient QB. Under Kubiak, the SYSTEM is the thing. Once you understand that you understand why trade down is the only route to take, why Sage Rosenfels makes sense, why Carr is kept, why the middlin' players who really are pretty good are picked up in free agency. Kubiak does not want stars, he wants a workaday team that executes the SYSTEM.

And THAT is why we're not drafting Vince Young.

kbourda
03-22-2006, 07:20 PM
Thats true, I loved seeing the rug pulled out from underneath them. I taped the "Greatest team ever" crap they shoved down our throats for a week and taped Rosebowl right behind it, about every two weeks I put it on, I never get tired of watching that tape.

A week?! That's all? It was a nightly thing on SC. That was on TV so much there was a point that not even VY's mom thought they would win. J/K

jerek
03-22-2006, 07:45 PM
Where did you come from? Why are you always reading into something other than what people post. I guess in your mind it's making an attempt (albeit weak) to try and justify your posts with no substance. I've been past that.....

I re-read your post and noticed (for the first time) the initial "don't" in front of your statement. My honest apologies, as its presence substantially changes the meaning of your post.

I will ignore your reply as I am going to assume you were making it in light of my own misunderstanding. My posts are 100% homegrown full of substance, buddy.

Mightymike
03-22-2006, 07:55 PM
does anyone know how the other texas players did?
Johnathan Scott
Huff
Ced Griff
Aaron Harris
David Thomas

?????

Tale Gator
03-22-2006, 07:55 PM
My posts are 100% homegrown full of substance

They're full of something all right...



:)

tulexan
03-22-2006, 08:05 PM
It will be interesting to see how Vince does tomorrow when Norm Chow puts him through the gauntlet using Tennessee receivers.

Mightymike
03-22-2006, 08:08 PM
http://nfl.com/draft/story/9329030
other texas players' pro day
cedric griffin weighed in at 6'0 3/8 202lb. & had a 35-inch vertical jump and a 3.97 short shuttle.
Johnathan Scott 6'6 322 has an arm length of 33 7/8 inches and a hand size of 10 inches. Did 17 bench presses.
david thomas longsnapped

Vinny
03-22-2006, 08:48 PM
some Texas pro day footage...

http://www.statesman.com/news/mplayer/m/2909

uhcougar08
03-22-2006, 09:04 PM
New Orleans picked up Brees and they are STILL rumored to have an interest in Lienart. Now if that be true ...certainly the Texans could still have an interest in Young ...even with David Carr.

You must be smoking pot.

Htown34s
03-22-2006, 09:30 PM
Frankly JMO but folks are throwing around way, way too many accusations in the VY discussions. There are far less haters than alleged--everyone who discusses VY being anything less than perfect or the best ever or the only choice is not a hater.

I was really just calling out ChuckM. To make everything better for myself I re-discovered the "Ignor List". RIP Chuck.

Htown34s
03-22-2006, 09:42 PM
they attended it.

why is it not important here????

VY kicked ***. hope we draft him.

when is usc pro day??

Sorry Bamboo, they attended it to look good for the fans. Also, they may be looking at (IMO) Scott, Griffith, and Thomas in later rounds.

Everyone should watch the video of the pro day at UT on the Statesman website. Not too many chances to see what happens at a pro day event like that. Koodos for the online version of the Statesman paper posting the video, but to show their VY focus or just their naiveté, the paper's headline writer called it "Pro Timing Day".

gtexan02
03-22-2006, 09:49 PM
Nice little article on the pro day:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2380236

run-david-run
03-22-2006, 09:49 PM
nfl.com reports he started out 7 for 7 passing.


http://www.nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts#texas
yay! he completed 7 passes to receivers running around, now all we are missing is the defensive backs!

Tulip
03-22-2006, 10:05 PM
I like that Kubiak commented on Vince's competitiveness. He's going to have a lot of flashbacks to this offseason when his team is facing Vince once every 3 or 4 years (or worst case - twice a year).

Watching the FO is pretty funny. They are walking a tightrope. If they express too much enthusiasm for Vince, they keep an almost-dead trade option alive, but then the fans won't understand why they didn't pick him on draft day.

When reading the espn.com article, I wondered if Chris Mortensen's "one scout" has a vested interest in Vince's stock dropping. The comments just sounded a little too hyper in their negativity.

I don't know if anyone watched PTI today, but Wilbon said that he doesn't buy that Vince's stock has dropped at all.

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 10:29 PM
I wondered if Chris Mortensen's "one scout" has a vested interest in Vince's stock dropping. The comments just sounded a little too hyper in their negativity.

My...god, it has to be an Aggie

Tulip
03-22-2006, 10:35 PM
My...god, it has to be an Aggie

That's not a "vested interest". Not a real one, anyway.

I meant more like the scout was from a team picking mid-round or something like that. NFL teams try playing mind games with each other from the end of the season all the way through draft day.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 10:36 PM
That's not a "vested interest". Not a real one, anyway.

I meant more like the scout was from a team picking mid-round or something like that. NFL teams try playing mind games with each other from the end of the season all the way through draft day.


Is it possible the scout was being honest? I know, I know, I'm obviously a hater......

Carr Bombed
03-22-2006, 10:36 PM
That's not a "vested interest". Not a real one, anyway.

I meant more like the scout was from a team picking mid-round or something like that. NFL teams try playing mind games with each other from the end of the season all the way through draft day.i was just joking

Tulip
03-22-2006, 10:40 PM
Is it possible the scout was being honest? I know, I know, I'm obviously a hater......

Anything is possible.

It's possible that Vince Young is the next Ryan Leaf.

Or the next Peyton Manning.

Or somewhere in between.

If the draft were an exact science, it'd be a heck of a lot easier.

bkimble
03-22-2006, 10:42 PM
Some people just don't "get it." Cutler was a nobody, a low draft choice, maybe 2nd round. He had EVERYTHING to prove at the combine and so he worked out and did well. Now he's a top 3 QB. He probably COULD NOT have hurt his stock at the combine because his stock was so low.

Vince Young is a different case entirely. He had a brilliant season capped by an out-of-this-world performance in the Rose Bowl, probably a little more difficult venue than the combine. He ran, he threw, he QB'd the offense, he did everything and if you were grading him on a scale of 100 points for that performance you could not possibly drop below 98-99.

Since then, Vince has not done so well. He made a mistake in representation which just shows that he's a little more unsophisticated than you would like, he's not already a professional player with a professional's view of the game. Then he gets the lousy Wonderlic score, and he's black, so everyone assumes he's not the brightest light on the tree. Then he doesn't work out at the combine and people start whispering he's hiding something.

Bottom line, the football people really already know pretty much what they need to know about Vince Young. If they want a personal workout (as the Titans apparently do) they get it.

I've said before I think the Texans are fools to pass on him, because he alone has the chance to be the mold-breaker in the NFL. But I agree, it's a terrific risk. Maybe he'll only turn out real good. Or worse, a bust (though that seems far-fetched even to his most avid haters).

The Texans real difficulty is they don't WANT a brilliant QB under Kubiak, they want a pretty good, careful, sufficient QB. Under Kubiak, the SYSTEM is the thing. Once you understand that you understand why trade down is the only route to take, why Sage Rosenfels makes sense, why Carr is kept, why the middlin' players who really are pretty good are picked up in free agency. Kubiak does not want stars, he wants a workaday team that executes the SYSTEM.

And THAT is why we're not drafting Vince Young.


It's a terrific risk. OMG, you sound like those *****s on ESPN (err USC network). How do you clairify that statement? Where are the empirical evidence to support your position. Frankly, I don't see it. The last I checked, VY lead the nation in passing rating, and was the MVP in the last two Rose Bowl games. He lead the longhorns a national championship. And he's a tremendous leader as well a proving winner. Something that we don't have on the Texans. I don't hear y'all saying that ML is a "terrific risk". I just replayed the Rose Bowl game on my DVR, and VY preformance was better than ML and anybody else on the field. The only risk I see is that the Texans would pass of such as great talent and stay with the shockly terrible David Carr. Too bad our front office is egregiously flawed.
:yahoo:

Tulip
03-22-2006, 10:42 PM
i was just joking

Yeah - I really didn't get that at all.

sakebomb
03-22-2006, 10:47 PM
To bad for Vince that the Rose Bowl wasn't April 28, 2006. That way his stock would only have a day to fall rather than three months.

texasguy346
03-22-2006, 10:58 PM
That's not a "vested interest". Not a real one, anyway.

I meant more like the scout was from a team picking mid-round or something like that. NFL teams try playing mind games with each other from the end of the season all the way through draft day.

I really doubt the scout was trying to effect VY stock because frankly other NFL teams aren't going to trust what some annoymous scout for another team thinks about VY. They take what their scouting department gives them & use it to put their final grade on a particular player, in this case VY.

Some teams might be quite high on him, but that doesn't mean they'd give him a significantly lower grade based upon the evaluation by some other scout from a different team. While there are plenty of smoke & mirror tactics going on during draft time I don't think many teams actually take the bait hook, line, & sinker.

tulexan
03-22-2006, 11:07 PM
USC had the one of the greatest offenses of all time, not one of the greatest overall teams.

outofhnd
03-22-2006, 11:12 PM
There is no way to know who is doing what till Paul Tagliabue announces "with the first pick in the draft" at 11:30...

The Jets were figured to take a QB with their pick @ #4, However with thesigning of chat and ramsey, Maybe they want Reggie and got this deal done to pony up their 2 1st rounders for Reggie Bush with the first overall pick...

Maybe we take Reggie, Maybe we take Vince, Maybe we trade down, but with all the players working out there was more to look at than just Vince.

The only thing that bugged me, is the Q&A session was more an explanation for certain things he did at the college level rather than giving him an NFL scenario like what would you do if the defense came at you this way.

Nighthawk
03-23-2006, 01:04 AM
My...god, it has to be an Aggie

Don't be daft. Mortensen has been consistently and nastily anti-Young since last year. He was also reporting the surface was "fast" when everyone else was reporting it was slower than the combine surface by a good amt. And if you looked at the video, I can't imagine you thought that was a reasonable test of 40 yd dash for anybody--it's like running the 40 in a bathroom.

Nighthawk
03-23-2006, 01:08 AM
It's a terrific risk. OMG, you sound like those *****s on ESPN (err USC network). How do you clairify that statement? Where are the empirical evidence to support your position. Frankly, I don't see it. The last I checked, VY lead the nation in passing rating, and was the MVP in the last two Rose Bowl games. He lead the longhorns a national championship. And he's a tremendous leader as well a proving winner. Something that we don't have on the Texans. I don't hear y'all saying that ML is a "terrific risk". I just replayed the Rose Bowl game on my DVR, and VY preformance was better than ML and anybody else on the field. The only risk I see is that the Texans would pass of such as great talent and stay with the shockly terrible David Carr. Too bad our front office is egregiously flawed.
:yahoo:

Well, you missed my point. We should take Young, but we're not going to. We're building a system and it's not the kind of system you build around a probable mega-star like Young. You build it around a reasonably good QB like Carr or Rosenfels. And BTW, I'm not in favor of it, I'm just reporting what I think the Texans FO is doing.

nunusguy
03-23-2006, 08:43 AM
"Asked to compare Young's workout to one given last Friday by Vanderbilt's Jay Cutler in cold weather and swirling winds, one scout said told Mortensen, "There was no comparison. Cutler made all the throws in tough conditions while Young limited his range of throws and he was indoors."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2380236

Mr. White
03-23-2006, 08:49 AM
4.8 in the 40.

Tale Gator
03-23-2006, 08:58 AM
The rumor building now is that Vince coasted in at the end of his 40-yard dash instead of accelerating all the way through it... :shocked

:stirpot:

Seriously you've got to love it. :)

Kaiser Toro
03-23-2006, 09:20 AM
It is funny how everyone is stuck on the 40 time for this QB. The people that constantly throw that out probably never watched him play or have an agenda in my opinion.

nunusguy
03-23-2006, 09:29 AM
I'm listening to 610 right now, and they (UT homer Richard Justice is also
with them), are all defensive about Young's 40 time, saying he didn't get someone to help him prepare for this. Anybody seeing a pattern here , first VY flunks the Wonderlic, and everyone says that test score is irrelavant (except maybe not for a QB). Well the 40 time is not too meaningful for a QB, but its just one more thing a player prepares for and rehearses for during the whole process leading up to the Draft in NYC late in April. Really part of the job interview process. But one's self discipline and organizational skills are
called into question when everyone is constantly defending the results. And
those skills are definitely important for an NFL QB.

chuckm
03-23-2006, 09:35 AM
I myself don't think it's all that important. However, is it good business to initially say you're not running, then run and have it be slightly less than expected? I've read didn't warm up, slow track, pulled up at the end, shows competitive nature, .... who knows? I'm braced for impact ...

Frills
03-23-2006, 09:36 AM
I myself don't think it's all that important. However, is it good business to initially say you're not running, then run and have it be slightly less than expected? I've read didn't warm up, slow track, pulled up at the end, shows competitive nature, .... who knows? I'm braced for impact ...


He also said he would throw at the combine as well

Kaiser Toro
03-23-2006, 09:40 AM
Anybody seeing a pattern here , first VY flunks the Wonderlic, and everyone says that test score is irrelavant (except maybe not for a QB). Well the 40 time is not too meaningful for a QB, but its just one more thing a player prepares for and rehearses for during the whole process leading up to the Draft in NYC late in April. Really part of the job interview process. But one's self discipline and organizational skills are
called into question when everyone is constantly defending the results. And
those skills are definitely important for an NFL QB.

Yes I do see a pattern here. So VY flunked the wonderlic, does this mean he has to go to NFL Europe first? Did not realize there was a failing grade.

When VY separates from players during live games and passes for 300 yards those are the tangible results people are looking for. I have never recalled someone get so ripped apart as this kid whether it was in Basketball or Football. If he were a delinquent or was coming off an injury then I could see where the ultra criticism would be coming from.

If you want to talk about VY then talk about him in football parlance and ding him for what is waiting for him at the next level because there is plenty to discuss (which Jerek does a fine job doing) - zone read, throwing motion (be careful as we have a QB who was dinged on that), five step and seven step drops, being under center, etc. But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.

jacquescas
03-23-2006, 09:45 AM
So at what point will the negatives start to outstrip the positives. If he just flunked the wunderlich it would be one thing.

He didn't make every throw, he ran slow and speed is supposed to be one of his weapons.

AJ Hawk ran faster than Vince. He is a hardcore project because he is going to have to learn to throw better.

He has dropped to the last half of the top 10 in my estimation.

chuckm
03-23-2006, 09:54 AM
But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.

I completely agree but if you had Young's ear, would you not use this to your advantage?

prepare for the Wonderlic...I agree it's not a be all end all for an NFL QB, but for Heaven's sake prepare for it and make it a NON-issue ...

this guy has awesome physical gifts, so use them ... prepare for the 40 ... blaze it .... make it a NON-issue ....

sometimes perception, unfortunately, IS reality ... and in the case of the NFL draft where the difference between going 1st and 7th means millions of dollars, go ahead and play hype game and beat them at it ....

Htown34s
03-23-2006, 09:54 AM
So at what point will the negatives start to outstrip the positives. If he just flunked the wunderlich it would be one thing.

He didn't make every throw, he ran slow and speed is supposed to be one of his weapons.

AJ Hawk ran faster than Vince. He is a hardcore project because he is going to have to learn to throw better.

He has dropped to the last half of the top 10 in my estimation.


At what point does football skills play into the equation?

Runner
03-23-2006, 09:57 AM
It is funny how everyone is stuck on the 40 time for this QB. The people that constantly throw that out probably never watched him play or have an agenda in my opinion.

I think it is more just backlash to all the speculation (guarantees?) about Young "redefining the position of quarterback" that have been seen and heard for the past couple of months. If he's supposed to break the mold because he's bigger, stronger, faster - people want to see the proof and will harp on it if he doesn't meet the expectations that have been touted.

I think much of the VY pro and con analysis comes from the two sides of the argument being tired of, and irritated with, each other. There is plenty of blame on both sides for the over the top posts - as they say "you've made your bed, now sleep in it". (That was the global "you").

SteelBlueToro
03-23-2006, 09:59 AM
All of the media coverage is over the top and completely ridiculous. To hear the rabidly drooling talking heads that VY is the ONLY QB to EVER have a pro day. Oooooh - he threw passes, and he ran. Big deal. Good grief. Enough already. :brickwall

Kaiser Toro
03-23-2006, 09:59 AM
I completely agree but if you had Young's ear, would you not use this to your advantage?

prepare for the Wonderlic...I agree it's not a be all end all for an NFL QB, but for Heaven's sake prepare for it and make it a NON-issue ...

this guy has awesome physical gifts, so use them ... prepare for the 40 ... blaze it .... make it a NON-issue ....

sometimes perception, unfortunately, IS reality ... and in the case of the NFL draft where the difference between going 1st and 7th means millions of dollars, go ahead and play hype game and beat them at it ....

It became a non issue after he retook it, which is something that all of us do in our stages in life. I only got a 1050 on the SAT, I took it again and did better. Did my college ding me for it? No. At work we take competency tests and trainigns with assessments where you need to have a passing grade. If we fail them we are able to take them again to get credit. No big deal. Why is it that we talk about this more than the NFL personnel? Because most of us do not understand what really matters to the team. Could the test hurt him on his leverage for the signing bonus? I believe so, but not his draft position.

nunusguy
03-23-2006, 10:01 AM
Yes I do see a pattern here. So VY [B]When VY separates from players during live games and passes for 300 yards those are the tangible results people are looking for.
If you want to talk about VY then talk about him in football parlance and ding him for what is waiting for him at the next level because there is plenty to discuss (which Jerek does a fine job doing) - zone read, throwing motion (be careful as we have a QB who was dinged on that), five step and seven step drops, being under center, etc. But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.
Wonderlic scores and 40 times are very real and tangible to, and they are used for comparitive purposes. I gather they are important, or they wouldn't
be performed each year by the prospective draftees. VY is now competing with Leinert & Cutler, and if his competition gets the edge in a single category used to compare the 3, they are maybe in the top 5 and VYs isn't.
You have to remember, all of these things are used to measure the players
"up side" and "down side", and the latter may be more importatn to a team
making a 30-50 million $ investmetn than the former. Its business, and there's
nothing more important to these teams than minimizing the risk of their investment.

Kaiser Toro
03-23-2006, 10:03 AM
Wonderlic scores and 40 times are very real and tangible to, and they are used for comparitive purposes. I gather they are important, or they wouldn't
be performed each year by the prospective draftees. VY is now competing with Leinert & Cutler, and if his competition gets the edge in a single category used to compare the 3, they are maybe in the top 5 and VYs isn't.
You have to remember, all of these things are used to measure the players
"up side" and "down side", and the latter may be more importatn to a team
making a 30-50 million $ investmetn than the former. Its business, and there's
nothing more important to these teams than minimizing the risk of their investment.

Agreed as my post above the one I quoted meets you half way on your position.

chuckm
03-23-2006, 10:06 AM
It became a non issue after he retook it, which is something that all of us do in our stages in life. I only got a 1050 on the SAT, I took it again and did better. Did my college ding me for it? No. At work we take competency tests and trainigns with assessments where you need to have a passing grade. If we fail them we are able to take them again to get credit. No big deal.

once again, Yes a million times Yes ....

But my point is, why HAVE to retake a pointless test to prove to people that you have walking around sense?

A 1 minute conversation something like ....

Management: Vince you'll be given a short test at the combine. It's given to all the players. It's fairly straightforward. We're going to spend a half hour a day for about a week preparing you for it.

Vince: OK


My take on this has absolutely nothing to do with his mental competency or with the Wonderlic's relevance to NFL success. It has everything to do with his management's on the job training ....

Kaiser Toro
03-23-2006, 10:13 AM
My take on this has absolutely nothing to do with his mental competency or with the Wonderlic's relevance to NFL success. It has everything to do with his management's on the job training ....

I agree that his management was a problem, and may still continue to be. Maybe that is the answer you are looking for, but I do not know what it has to do with the Texans situation or VY losing the shine of a top 10 pick.

I need a new dancing partner Chuck, us going aournd in cricles is beginning to hurt my head, my fingers and my demand. :)

chuckm
03-23-2006, 10:16 AM
I agree that his management was a problem, and may still continue to be. Maybe that is the answer you are looking for, but I do not know what it has to do with the Texans situation or VY losing the shine of a top 10 pick.


Not looking for an answer .... just making (or trying to make) a point


I need a new dancing partner Chuck, us going aournd in cricles is beginning to hurt my head, my fingers and my demand. :)

yea lately you're always on my toes anyway .... :)

infantrycak
03-23-2006, 10:17 AM
If you want to talk about VY then talk about him in football parlance and ding him for what is waiting for him at the next level because there is plenty to discuss (which Jerek does a fine job doing) - zone read, throwing motion (be careful as we have a QB who was dinged on that), five step and seven step drops, being under center, etc. But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.

I agree generally with your post. One point I will differ on is taking issues off the table (actually I agree the 40 time should be taken off the table but that detracts from the general rule of leaving the discussion open). VY's ability to run a conventional NFL O is in question--it was before he ever took the Wonderlic and that incident didn't help. Before folks start pulling out the stones and looking for the H key consider this outside of the MB context--everyone on 610 am loves VY even if not all think he will be the pick. Every one of them also feels like drafting VY to adapt him to a team's system would be a mistake, that VY has to have a system built around him. However you phrase it--ability to run a NFL O or needing a special system to take full advantage of his talents--we are talking about a major committment to a non-interchangeable part. That is worth evaluating.

Kaiser Toro
03-23-2006, 10:22 AM
yea lately you're always on my toes anyway .... :)

Nice.

Big B Texan Fan
03-23-2006, 10:57 AM
Nice.
Which one of y'all is leading?

jerek
03-23-2006, 11:10 AM
Yes I do see a pattern here. So VY flunked the wonderlic, does this mean he has to go to NFL Europe first? Did not realize there was a failing grade.

When VY separates from players during live games and passes for 300 yards those are the tangible results people are looking for. I have never recalled someone get so ripped apart as this kid whether it was in Basketball or Football. If he were a delinquent or was coming off an injury then I could see where the ultra criticism would be coming from.

If you want to talk about VY then talk about him in football parlance and ding him for what is waiting for him at the next level because there is plenty to discuss (which Jerek does a fine job doing) - zone read, throwing motion (be careful as we have a QB who was dinged on that), five step and seven step drops, being under center, etc. But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.

Thanks for the nod: it means something to me and I am glad that at least some people on this board who don't necessarily agree with me all of the time still possess basic reading comprehension skills (not that I ever questioned yours, KT, but you know what I mean.)

I don't have a problem with Vince's 40 time: IMO, it would be relevant if he were a track athlete or if he ran a 4.27 or a 4.95 -- scores that were significantly different than expected. Instead, he ran in upper 4.4s-mid 4.5s; exactly what we expected him to run. For that matter, his passing workout was cool and all, but it was a scripted event and likewise did nothing to alter VY's past play -- you know, what he's done in games on the field, which counts a lot more than his IQ test that I enjoy to make fun of but understand is pretty irrelevant -- or my opinion of him: namely, great talent, still question marks.

The man's on-field resume wasn't changed a bit at yesterday's pro day: still the same Rose Bowl performer, still the same exciting athlete with questionable management and big reason to believe he will succeed at the next level, given time and hard work. Sucks that some people miss the boat entirely and want to think I have a Vince Young voodoo doll at the crib, sit around at work thinking up stuff I want to say bad about the guy and all, but we are here to talk football and I will tell you what I think. As I say, the good posters are what keep me here, and I enjoy the talk ya'll. Or should I say, y'all?

edo783
03-23-2006, 11:17 AM
Looks like ChuckM and KT are gettin all brokeback on us. Make a guy just dab a tear to see such harmony.

beerlover
03-23-2006, 11:35 AM
the fact Vince Young dominates this forum, the radio airwaves on 610 and shop talk around the water cooler means one thing- Vince Young is one of those rare athletes who transcends sport into icon status. forget football stats, wonderlick scores & Pro Days for a minute and look at Vince Young as a franchise and buisness entitiy onto itself.

Were people talking about MJ like this when he came out of North Carolina? I lived in Portland at the time & it seemed to me the hype, even though not as overpowering, was a draft factor with the Blazers & they did not want the circus to come to town & went with need, less contorversial prospect. The Texans, unlike the Blazers got lucky, because Reggie Bush is no slouch, he is a very dynamic young man with unlimited upsided out of the backfield, he just does not play the QB position :redtowel:

Vince Young is the player of a generation, he just so happens to come from Houston and played for the Texas Longhorns :homer:

Vinny
03-23-2006, 12:04 PM
I hate to say this, but I am actually beginning to hate Vince Young, the thought of him in Steel blue is beginning to turn my stomach. I was a huge VY booster in Jan, but his fans are just a total turnoff to me. I am also a big Texas fan. Root for them every game. But, If these are the kind of fans we are going to add to the bandwagon, let Possum Holler or some other locale far, far away have them. Seriousely.

I am relishing the thought of laughing my *** off as team after team passes on VY, and the burnt orange faces get redder and redder until they explode. :yahoo:If an ugly fan (or fans) change your opinion of a football player than you never had a clue to begin with. Fans have no bearing on what a guy can do on the field, and once you start incorporating them into your opinion you lose me as someone who respects your football opinion. I lost a lot of respect for a lot of you fans this year...on both sides of this debate.

chuckm
03-23-2006, 01:04 PM
If an ugly fan (or fans) change your opinion of a football player than you never had a clue to begin with. Fans have no bearing on what a guy can do on the field, and once you start incorporating them into your opinion you lose me as someone who respects your football opinion. I lost a lot of respect for a lot of you fans this year...on both sides of this debate.


:eek:

thunderkyss
03-23-2006, 01:21 PM
I don't have a problem with Vince's 40 time: IMO, it would be relevant if he were a track athlete or if he ran a 4.27 or a 4.95 -- scores that were significantly different than expected. Instead, he ran in upper 4.4s-mid 4.5s; exactly what we expected him to run.
Exactly....... nobody said Vince had Break away speed, or could score from anywhere on any rush. We said he can run. If they wanted to test that ability, they should have played tag with him.

For that matter, his passing workout was cool and all, but it was a scripted event and likewise did nothing to alter VY's past play -- you know, what he's done in games on the field, which counts a lot more than his IQ test that I enjoy to make fun of but understand is pretty irrelevant -- or my opinion of him: namely, great talent, still question marks. I thought his throwing went over well...... after reading some posts in this thread(not particularly this one), I'm wondering if I'm getting the right news....... I heard he made every throw, and missed one out of 50 targets or something. I heard that he showed he was comfortable under center, 3, 5, & 7 step drops.... probably should have shown the 1 step drop............ for the heck of it.

But I agree with Jerek, you've got 4 years of tape on the guy....... College, and Highschool..... The guys who'll be making the decisions can/will talk to him. They'll talk to every one that knows him, coached him, roomed with him, took his test for him....... everything. They already know more about Vince Young, than they learned at his Pro-Day... They'll learn more about him in the days to come....... that Pro-Day, is more about exposure for UT.

The man's on-field resume wasn't changed a bit at yesterday's pro day: still the same Rose Bowl performer, still the same exciting athlete with questionable management and big reason to believe he will succeed at the next level, given time and hard work. Sucks that some people miss the boat entirely and want to think I have a Vince Young voodoo doll at the crib, sit around at work thinking up stuff I want to say bad about the guy and all, but we are here to talk football and I will tell you what I think. As I say, the good posters are what keep me here, and I enjoy the talk ya'll. Or should I say, y'all?

I think the only time you & I have crossed, is when discussing David Carr. David has just as many issues, and as far as proving what they can do in the NFL, I think David is only slightly ahead. I'd like to see him take a 5 step drop. .. correctly execute a 3 step drop. Read a defense, and work a progression. I agree it's not his fault, but I don't think that should hurt Vince's chance of coming to Houston.


dang chuckm, I did it again didn't I.