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View Full Version : Not another McKinney!!! (update - Dolphins resign Seth)


Ibar_Harry
03-21-2006, 02:06 AM
Read this and weep!!!!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3737075.html

dalemurphy
03-21-2006, 02:21 AM
It appears that either the new staff believes in Pitts, Wade, Wand at tackle or they have already targeted an OT for the draft- probably Ferguson... I say this because almost all of the free agent OLmen we've shown interest in are interior linemen.

I think it's at least possible that they are in love with Winston. After all, he has the ideal physical features for the zone blocking scheme... pure speculation.

Ibar_Harry
03-21-2006, 02:23 AM
It appears that either the new staff believes in Pitts, Wade, Wand at tackle or they have already targeted an OT for the draft- probably Ferguson... I say this because almost all of the free agent OLmen we've shown interest in are interior linemen.

I think it's at least possible that they are in love with Winston. After all, he has the ideal physical features for the zone blocking scheme... pure speculation.

According to John, Steve's brother Seth will be here tomorrow....

Buzz
03-21-2006, 03:05 AM
They're bringing in New England guard Stephen Neal on Wednesday after Kubiak returns from the University of Texas pro day in Austin.

In my opinion, Neal is the second best guard available behind Hutchinson. He would make a great addition to the team, but I hope he doesn't ask for too much money.

Runner
03-21-2006, 06:30 AM
It appears that either the new staff believes in Pitts, Wade, Wand at tackle or they have already targeted an OT for the draft- probably Ferguson... I say this because almost all of the free agent OLmen we've shown interest in are interior linemen.

I think it's at least possible that they are in love with Winston. After all, he has the ideal physical features for the zone blocking scheme... pure speculation.

I haven't seen a post from you in a long time.

I can see Pitts and Wand fitting the scheme, but Wade's skills seem much better suited to a power blocking scheme than ours. If the coaches don't see something in Wade, you're probably right. Either they think they have pretty good shot at Ashworth or they are considering a OT in the draft as a possible starter or 3rd tackle.


According to John, Steve's brother Seth will be here tomorrow....

I had heard a rumor about this, but I was hoping if I didn't say something it would go away. :)

Johnny Utah
03-21-2006, 07:42 AM
Stephen Neal sounds like he'll fit perfectly into a zone-blocking scheme. Hope we get him.


He lacks the bulk and strength you would like, but his movement skills make up for his shortcomings. He has a good understanding of leverage and plays with a good level of intensity. He is explosive coming off the ball, takes a good first step and takes good angles to his blocks. He shows that he can get to the second level and get to a moving target. He has very good quickness and running ability and he does a good job of pulling on traps and screens. He needs a lot of work and improvement in technique. He is a very good athlete who needs to work on the little things like his base and keeping his head up and locking on with his hands. He has good lateral movement, but does a poor job of picking up stunts and twists because he gets his head down and he lacks anticipation. He can be knocked back into the pocket by the strong bull rush. He is at his best when he can fire out and attack and when he is in space. He has the raw athletic ability to be an outstanding player but he needs to improve his technique. He does not appear to have the versatility to line up anywhere else on the offensive line than at the guard position.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/fa?playerId=3509

bdiddy
03-21-2006, 07:59 AM
Read this and weep!!!!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3737075.html

McKinney's brother is actually a pretty good player. He is a much better center than Steve, and would be an immediate up grade over any centers on our rosters.

keyfro
03-21-2006, 08:33 AM
seth mckinney i'm not too surprised for because we all know the aggie motto stick to their own...aggies help aggies or something like that...let's just hope kubiak has enough sense not to just give him the starting job...stephen neal on the other hand would be a good addition especially if they plan to use weigert at RT and keep wade on the bench

nunusguy
03-21-2006, 08:47 AM
In my opinion, Neal is the second best guard available behind Hutchinson. He would make a great addition to the team, but I hope he doesn't ask for too much money.
I dunno.....is he really that good ? That means he'd be really expensive for a
guard and on top of that we'd have to pay the "2-14 premium" to secure him.
But he is a San Diego native, maybe he'd like to block for Reggie ?

Coach C.
03-21-2006, 09:04 AM
Seth McKinney plays C, and he plays it rather well. He has started for Miami the past two years and has been very solid. Miami wants him back, but they want to get him at good value. Most people dont pay high dollar for Centers unless they are Bentley, Kruetz, or Mawae in his prime. I was wondering is Matt Birk out their or are the Vikings holding on to him. He would be a nice addition and can also play G.

Marcus
03-21-2006, 09:55 AM
In my opinion, Neal is the second best guard available behind Hutchinson. He would make a great addition to the team, but I hope he doesn't ask for too much money.

You know good and well that in order to get him, you're gonna have to overpay him. That's just the way it works.

You take your shot. If he doesn't play up to your expectations, then it's another example you can dream up that CC is a bad GM.

Right?:rolleyes:

edo783
03-21-2006, 10:27 AM
You take your shot. If he doesn't play up to your expectations, then it's another example you can dream up that CC is a bad GM. Right?:rolleyes:

Yup, that's pretty much how it works.

keyfro
03-21-2006, 10:40 AM
i think the important thing is with signing neal he would give us more lean-way with our offensive line...we could move weigert to RT if eric winston doesn't fall to us at the 33rd pick...or if he did we could pick him up with while knowing that we now have the depth at both tackle and guard so when/if weigert get's hurt we don't just fall apart

keyfro
03-21-2006, 10:41 AM
as for seth mckinney...i didn't think he did that good of a job down in miami otherwise why did they replace him with rex hadnot at center?

el toro
03-21-2006, 10:46 AM
One thing's for certain, the front office is looking to improve the O-line via free agency, contrary to claims in this forum. They've had interest in Ashworth and Flanagan, among others. Now there is interest in (and visits of) McKinney and Neal.

The draft should also give the team a chance to land a serious lineman prospect in round 2 or 3.

profan
03-21-2006, 11:15 AM
Read this and weep!!!!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3737075.html
Why weep? Seth is a good center who would be an instant upgrade at that position. Sherman and Kubiak would like to have him on board. Your boy carr's sacks are not all the fault of McKinney. If you want to see dave off his back, you would like this pick.

Porky
03-21-2006, 11:17 AM
I have a slight perference for Flanigan than Seth Mckinney, but I think Seth could hold down the fort a yr or two, and could even develop into a long term starter as I think he fits this blocking scheme nicely, and he is still young. He is a good upgrade considering our options at this time.

In regards to Neal, I am really excited by this guy. I didn't realize that he didn't play football in college. He was a wrestler in college, and I guess simpply tried out, and eventually made the squad. So, he is about 30, but his best football could still potentially be ahead of him, and at that age, he doesn't have the football wear and tear many guys have, so he is a young 30 at that. PLus, I feel he fits this scheme very nicely. If he would sign, we can nail down RG for at least a half decade. That signing would be huge.

All I see on these boards is nothing is being done for the line. Hogwash. You are not going to sign every player you have an interest in. But, so far, we have has serious discussions with Ashworth, Flanigan, Mckinney, and Neal, and I am sure feelers were sent out on various other guys. It's a two way street gang. Just because you pick up the phone, doesn't mean the other party is interested. Let's give it time. I am very happy with the offseason to date (unlike many of my brethern) :redtowel:

Frills
03-21-2006, 11:24 AM
Seth was one of the only ones to throw Ricky under the bus when he quit...the man has some stones and an attitude whick this line needs.

Ibar_Harry
03-21-2006, 11:25 AM
Seth was one of the only ones to throw Ricky under the bus when he quit...the man has some stones and an attitude whick this line needs.

I would say that is a McKinny trait.....

done88
03-21-2006, 12:31 PM
I played with both Steve and Seth at Clear Lake High School. Seth has always been the better lineman. Steve will tell you that. Steve is more aggressive and Seth is very results based. I believe Seth would be an upgrade over anyone we have at center. He will also tell David how it is. He is not one to sit around and take the blame while David does not throw the ball. I think it would be a great pick up.

David's Busted Carr
03-21-2006, 12:51 PM
i think it could be good to the brother's competing together. you know how it is... you never want your brother to show you up. so you get seth it could make both of them work harder and play better...

beerlover
03-21-2006, 01:03 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again the Texans two biggest needs remain Center and a MLB. so it would be a plus to bring home Seth, for a hometown discount & the draft won't hinge on need:)

Dunta_23
03-21-2006, 01:06 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again the Texans two biggest needs remain Center and a MLB. so it would be a plus to bring home Seth, for a hometown discount & the draft won't hinge on need:)

Not drafting on need is a great luxury to have...BPA is or is almost always better than taking a need player

cuppacoffee
03-21-2006, 01:15 PM
My preference at C would be Flanagan, obviously because of the Sherman connection.

As a fall back, or plan B, would it make any sense to work out a trade with Cleveland for Faine. The Browns have given him permission to seek a trade.

Link To Article (http://www.cleveland.com/browns/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1142933877138980.xml&coll=2)

What would be considered an acceptable trade?

Or would he not fit into the zone blocking scheme?

:coffee:

Hardcore Texan
03-21-2006, 01:17 PM
Maybe we pick up Cowart, Hilliard, and Seth this week. Sounds like a proactive FA to me, I hope we get all 3 of these guys. :redtowel:

Hervoyel
03-21-2006, 01:28 PM
Read this and weep!!!!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3737075.html

Why? There's nothing wrong with a "McKinney" that putting him in the right position won't fix. The guy (Steve) wasn't a lousy LG, he was just asked to be a C and did not excel at it. From all the optimistic posts I've seen out of you lately I'd assume you would be the last person to be worried about signing Seth McKinney.

Hervoyel
03-21-2006, 01:32 PM
It appears that either the new staff believes in Pitts, Wade, Wand at tackle or they have already targeted an OT for the draft- probably Ferguson... I say this because almost all of the free agent OLmen we've shown interest in are interior linemen.

I think it's at least possible that they are in love with Winston. After all, he has the ideal physical features for the zone blocking scheme... pure speculation.

Yes he'd be a great addition but I'm not surprised that the team is going after interior linemen because a) we need a different type of lineman across the board so the interior of the line is just as needy and b) the inside of our line was really, really bad. Lots of people noticed that we needed tackles but a lot of the blow ups were the fault of the interior.

They'll get it sorted out this year I think and build a good foundation finally.

F-minus67
03-21-2006, 01:35 PM
I would definitly want Faine over McKinney, but if McKinney is the only option I would have to take him.

jacquescas
03-21-2006, 01:40 PM
I'd like Flanagan and McKinney both. we can have McKinney guards. Let Pitts play the left side this year, and draft a LT on day one of the draft.

2 years from now it will be LT draft pick, Mckinney, hogdon, mckinny, pitts

for now Pitts is the best LT we are gonna get.

el toro
03-21-2006, 01:42 PM
If Seth McKinney will come for a reasonable price he'd be a nice pickup. As stated above, the line needs help in multiple spots. Getting a solid center and moving Steve back to his natural spot would be a nice first step. Adding one of the New England linemen would be great.

TexansFanatic
03-21-2006, 01:53 PM
I think having Seth McKinney playing right next to his brother is very intriguing. How often do you hear the cliche that a team "needs to gel" or the offensive line "needs to gel" ? How do you get better communication between a center and a guard than to have them as a set of brothers?

Eyeguy
03-21-2006, 02:00 PM
How can those same people who are promoting drafting VY because he is a hometown boy not support McKinney, or for that matter why were they not screeming from the moutian top when we tried to low ball localboy Givins?
We should have drafted Seth in 2002 instead of Charles Hill.

Runner
03-21-2006, 02:03 PM
How can those same people who are promoting drafting VY because he is a hometown boy not support McKinney, or for that matter why were they not screeming from the moutian top when we tried to low ball localboy Givins?
We should have drafted Seth in 2002 instead of Charles Hill.

Because they are different guys at different positions?

Eyeguy
03-21-2006, 02:07 PM
Because they are different guys at different positions?

Good point. We don't need a QB but we do need OL and WR.

Texas
03-21-2006, 03:07 PM
I'd really like to see us pull one of the OL players. I mean we really need depth there to compete with who we have because right now our OL just isnt working. I think if we grab some more OL players it will help us to see what combinations work best and then carr may be able to stay in the pocket for more then 1.2 seconds.

Coach C.
03-21-2006, 03:42 PM
I know alot of people on the board are big on Flannigan and I understand why the guy has been solid for the last 3yrs discouting the year he was hurt in 04. My thing is he is 33. Let's give that money to Seth who is younger and has the ability to be just as good. Seth is not as strong against the run as some of our linemen, but he is very solid against the pass. Seth and Hog could have a good battle going through TC and our line would be better because of it.

Dunta_23
03-21-2006, 03:45 PM
I think the reason people here want Flanagan is the fact that he is 33 and is still a good player...Meaning that in 2-3 years Hogdon will step in...as the starter

Bearfan Blue and Orange
03-21-2006, 03:49 PM
I think the reason people here want Flanagan is the fact that he is 33 and is still a good player...Meaning that in 2-3 years Hogdon will step in...as the starter


My thoughts exactly. You need a proven general at Center to orchestrate the "new" offensive line and he is the guy to do that. Give him 2-3years and then the backup will be ready to step in as he retires.

If do not put a solid guy in there, especially if you are going to be running with the combo of Bush and DD (oh that sounds like a good combo, not just in football, oops digressing) not just pass blocking.

This way you could throw in a top Guard between the center and a great Tackle and not see many flaws.

Coach C.
03-21-2006, 03:53 PM
In 2-3 years I would assume we would have a better option at center than Hogdon. Plus McKinney is good general and one that anchored two ok lines in Miami.

Texans_Chick
03-21-2006, 03:54 PM
Why? There's nothing wrong with a "McKinney" that putting him in the right position won't fix. The guy (Steve) wasn't a lousy LG, he was just asked to be a C and did not excel at it. From all the optimistic posts I've seen out of you lately I'd assume you would be the last person to be worried about signing Seth McKinney.


Agreed. I know Steve takes a lot of grief on the MB, but I appreciated his willingness to do what the team needed, even if it wasn't what best suited him.

Personally, I think it sounds like a good pickup if we can do it at the right price.

LOL, about your tag line on the bottom of your posts, BTW.

Kaiser Toro
03-21-2006, 03:56 PM
Hey, hey we're the McKinney's. Some say we McKinney around. :monkey:

Light day at work and counting the clock.

TEXANS84
03-21-2006, 05:01 PM
Steven Neal (Patriots) only allowed 2.50 sacks in 16 games played last year, and 3.50 in 2004.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5862&Submit=Go

Seth McKinney (Dolphins) allowed 0.00 sacks last year in 13 games, and 6.00 sacks in 16 games in 2004.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5976&Submit=Go

Second Honeymoon
03-21-2006, 06:04 PM
You know good and well that in order to get him, you're gonna have to overpay him. That's just the way it works.

You take your shot. If he doesn't play up to your expectations, then it's another example you can dream up that CC is a bad GM.

Right?:rolleyes:

So are we to understand that you feel CC is NOT a bad GM. If that is the case you really should really follow the team more closely imho. Anyone who is honest with himself has to know that Casserley has turned this franchise from a promising and optimistic expansion franchise into a national embarassment with all the bad draft picks, bad signings, bad coaching hires, bad player performances, just about everything has been bad with the Texans except the cheerleaders.

Oh and is it just me but those guys running around the field with flags after we score is quite possibly the most non-hetero thing ever for a NFL team. That stuff might be ok for teams with all-male cheerleading squads (hooray for you TAMU, you lose at life) and Arena football but this is the NFL. Give me silicone enhanced stripper pole cheerleading anyday...even if it is to the same songs by such luminaries as Nickelback, 3 doors down,Disturbed and AC/DC over and over...at least the Trailer Park Rock is a diversion from the product on the field.

doug from the woodlands

el toro
03-21-2006, 06:41 PM
Kubiak was a bad hire?

Anyways, the truth lies somewhere between 'Casserly is a horrid GM' and 'it's not his fault'. But this is the internets, home of armchair GMs ready to castigate those who do not recognize their brilliance.

4Texans
03-21-2006, 07:22 PM
i think it could be good to the brother's competing together. you know how it is... you never want your brother to show you up. so you get seth it could make both of them work harder and play better...

I agree! It would definitely add something to the competition.

Hervoyel
03-21-2006, 10:29 PM
So are we to understand that you feel CC is NOT a bad GM. If that is the case you really should really follow the team more closely imho. Anyone who is honest with himself has to know that Casserley has turned this franchise from a promising and optimistic expansion franchise into a national embarassment with all the bad draft picks, bad signings, bad coaching hires, bad player performances, just about everything has been bad with the Texans except the cheerleaders.

Oh and is it just me but those guys running around the field with flags after we score is quite possibly the most non-hetero thing ever for a NFL team. That stuff might be ok for teams with all-male cheerleading squads (hooray for you TAMU, you lose at life) and Arena football but this is the NFL. Give me silicone enhanced stripper pole cheerleading anyday...even if it is to the same songs by such luminaries as Nickelback, 3 doors down,Disturbed and AC/DC over and over...at least the Trailer Park Rock is a diversion from the product on the field.

doug from the woodlands

How about the middle east doug? Is Casserly responsible for the problems in the middle east?

Just checking.

HJam72
03-21-2006, 10:30 PM
I'm pretty sure Pendry is the one who screwed up the middle east. :)

throwANDREtheBALL
03-21-2006, 11:26 PM
I want Neal

keyfro
03-21-2006, 11:52 PM
why not take both of them and start having quality depth on the offensive line?

Texans Pride
03-22-2006, 09:45 AM
In my opinion, Neal is the second best guard available behind Hutchinson. He would make a great addition to the team, but I hope he doesn't ask for too much money.


Stephen Neal will also visit the Texans. He spent the past five seasons as a defensive tackle with the New England Patriots.

The Chronicle has him listed as a defensive tackle ???????????

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/3739840.html

U4ikrob
03-22-2006, 09:57 AM
IMO - Neal and Mckinney both would be nice pickups and quality depth/competition for the O-line. Hope we pickup both - would be nice to have some good depth on the line for a change.

el toro
03-22-2006, 10:21 AM
IMO - Neal and Mckinney both would be nice pickups and quality depth/competition for the O-line. Hope we pickup both - would be nice to have some good depth on the line for a change.


Sign those two and then add the best lineman available at #33 in the draft. Not bad.

Runner
03-22-2006, 10:30 AM
Sign those two and then add the best lineman available at #33 in the draft. Not bad.

How many o-linemen will we carry on the roster?

el toro
03-22-2006, 10:34 AM
Dunno. With the amount of interest they have in free agent linemen I suspect that they will add at least one more.

TEXANS84
03-22-2006, 10:47 AM
Texans | Ruegamer drawing interest; no visit planned
Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:47:42 -0800

PackersNews.com reports free agent OL Grey Ruegamer (Packers) said he has drawn some interest from the Houston Texans, but no visit has been scheduled.

el toro
03-22-2006, 10:49 AM
Texans | Ruegamer drawing interest; no visit planned
Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:47:42 -0800

PackersNews.com reports free agent OL Grey Ruegamer (Packers) said he has drawn some interest from the Houston Texans, but no visit has been scheduled.


...and another. The FO is certainly not done.

Runner
03-22-2006, 11:10 AM
This is the Texans o-line roster from the home page:

Center
McKinney, Steve
Washington, Todd
Hodgdon, Drew
Walter, Tyson

Guard
Weary, Fred

Guard/Tackle
Pitts, Chester
Wiegert, Zach

Tackle
Jones, Garrick
Wade, Todd
Wand, Seth

I have labeled the players by positions that are listed on the roster. I thought both McKinney and Washington were guard/centers, but for this discussion that really doesnít matter.

We currently have 10 o-lineman on the roster. Training camp will thin that down some. If we assume Washington, Walter, and Jones get cut before the final roster is set, that leaves us with 7 lineman.

If we sign one free agent and draft two, or sign two and draft one, that leaves 10 lineman on our roster. We normally dress about 8 on game days.

I donít know all the rules for using the practice squad to protect players, but if we add 2-3 lineman through whatever means we are going to have to make some deeper cuts.

Comments?

el toro
03-22-2006, 11:11 AM
Well, if they land some better quality linemen, cut out the chaff.

Runner
03-22-2006, 11:21 AM
Well, if they land some better quality linemen, cut out the chaff.

Ok. That was easy.

The coaches are looking at a lot of centers. Say they sign a good one. Who gets cut?

Who do they cut if they sign a tackle?

Who do they cut if they sign two interior lineman and a tackle, two of which are rookies?

wags
03-22-2006, 11:24 AM
This is the Texans o-line roster from the home page:

Guard
Weary, Fred

:sos:


Tackle
Jones, Garrick
Wade, Todd
Wand, Seth


:eek:

I just don't think Wand is starting quality. He can't read a defense, locks into one receiver, runs OB behind the ...oh wrong guy.

wags
03-22-2006, 11:27 AM
Ok. That was easy.

The coaches are looking at a lot of centers. Say they sign a good one. Who gets cut?

Who do they cut if they sign a tackle?

Who do they cut if they sign two interior lineman and a tackle, two of which are rookies?

If they sign two interior linemen then I would cut Weary.

Runner
03-22-2006, 11:39 AM
If they sign two interior linemen then I would cut Weary.

They just resigned him this off-season. There are some complexities here that make these less than straight-forward questions. For instance, Wade is an obvious choice because he clearly doesn't fit the scheme, but cutting him would be a huge cap hit.

wags
03-22-2006, 11:41 AM
They just resigned him this off-season.

Dammit. I think I repressed that memory.

chuckm
03-22-2006, 07:45 PM
profootballtalk.com is reporting that he's resigned with Miami ...

TexanFan881
03-22-2006, 07:50 PM
profootballtalk.com is reporting that he's resigned with Miami ...

darn, I guess :brickwall

Erratic Assassin
03-22-2006, 08:17 PM
seth mckinney i'm not too surprised for because we all know the aggie motto stick to their own...aggies help aggies or something like that...

Awesome. We have Kubiak and Sherman and we signed Steve McKinney to a new contract, we might get Seth McKinney and we're going to pass on Vince Young and we'll probably pick up Reggie McNeal in later rounds. I wonder if coach Slocum needs a job?:stirpot:

Texans Pride
03-22-2006, 08:20 PM
Here ya go. . . Not just on the rumor mill:

The Dolphins re-signed center Seth McKinney on Wednesday to a two-year, $5 million contract.

Agent Ralph Cindrich said McKinney will receive a $915,000 signing bonus along with a $585,000 base salary for 2006. McKinney is slated to receive $1 million in base salary in 2007 plus a $2.5 million roster bonus.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-0322dolphinsmckinney,0,3266887.story?coll=sfla-dolphins-front

V Man
03-22-2006, 08:54 PM
One more FA linemen not signed by us. I really thought we had the inside track on him. I wonder did we offer him give him an offer sheet, or was management not interested.:confused:

Mailman04
03-22-2006, 09:19 PM
You better hope they pass on Vince Young. Houston drafts Vince Young would be the biggest mistake in this franchise's history. Geez people, some of you need to realize all the talent in the world isn't in Austin Texas.

sprtsfanatic
03-22-2006, 09:24 PM
looks like the mailman has gone postal :crazy:

Mailman04
03-22-2006, 09:44 PM
Call me anything you want, but if you look at this with any semblance of objectivity you know the Texans shouldn't draft Vince Young or any other rookie QB. If they didn't feel Carr is the answer, they should have gone after Culpepper or Brees, but Young won't be a winning QB in the NFL. Before you act like I'm dumb or something, just wait and see. If they do draft a QB, it should be Matt and not Vince, but they shouldn't take either.

texasguy346
03-22-2006, 11:36 PM
Guys try to stay on topic or I'm going to have to start deleting the off topic posts. This is not a VY thread.

Mailman04
03-22-2006, 11:50 PM
Sorry about that. I'm new, but I knew better than to do that. Sorry.

texasguy346
03-23-2006, 12:14 AM
My post was directed more towards Bamboo than anyone else since he does this sort of thing repeatedly. We don't mind the occasional off topic post, but when it becomes a habbit then we tend to start deleting posts.

outofhnd
03-23-2006, 01:26 AM
Why not cut wiegart I just dont see him fitting the new scheme too well he isnt mobile enough in my estimation to handle the denver Zone.. But like I said a whole new scheme could make a world of difference.