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View Full Version : ferguson v.s. williams


baba ganoush
03-20-2006, 08:18 PM
why wouldnt anybody want ferguson over williams?
The texans need a franchise left tackle and we already signed weaver.

Mathis13
03-20-2006, 08:21 PM
Weaver is not a big playmaker or a pass rusher. He just plays the run very well

Grid
03-20-2006, 08:24 PM
1. Because we have a good LT already in Pitts.. he may not be Orlando Pace.. but it lowers the value of the Dbrickshaw pick.

2. This is the deepest OT draft in recent memory.. and the drop off in OT talent from the 1st to 2nd is miniscule.. we can get quality tackles in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, easily.

3. Dbrickshaw is a great prospect..but he isnt a rare prospect. Tackles like Ferguson come out every couple of seasons or so. Prospects like Williams are very rare. A DE of his size with his athletic ability is hard to come by. Julius Peppers is right up there with Dwight Freeney as one of the best DEs in the league, and Williams seems like a Julius Peppers clone.

Trap_Star
03-20-2006, 08:25 PM
why wouldnt anybody want ferguson over williams?
The texans need a franchise left tackle and we already signed weaver.

I want ferguson more than anybody, but the fact is williams is a freak of nature. He will most likely have an immediate impact, where as of ferguson will need a year or two to fully develope into the elite tackle he is destined to be.........I still want ferguson though!!!!:drool:

Kookus
03-20-2006, 09:52 PM
I would love to have williams if we could trade down to get him, but don't think we need to sell out the farm for D'Brick we should trust the system with the personnel we got and fix other holes on the team.

Trap_Star
03-20-2006, 10:03 PM
I would love to have williams if we could trade down to get him, but don't think we need to sell out the farm for D'Brick we should trust the system with the personnel we got and fix other holes on the team.

*starts to pout*

run-david-run
03-20-2006, 10:16 PM
Im still hoping for D'Brick or Mario, but Im coming to the realization that its gonna be Reggie...it was a good dream though...

Mathis13
03-20-2006, 10:17 PM
Im still hoping for D'Brick or Mario, but Im coming to the realization that its gonna be Reggie...it was a good dream though...
wats wrong with reggie? he's a playmaker and will improve our offense drastically :superman:

Bubbajwp
03-20-2006, 10:29 PM
1. Because we have a good LT already in Pitts.. he may not be Orlando Pace.. but it lowers the value of the Dbrickshaw pick.

2. This is the deepest OT draft in recent memory.. and the drop off in OT talent from the 1st to 2nd is miniscule.. we can get quality tackles in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, easily.

3. Dbrickshaw is a great prospect..but he isnt a rare prospect. Tackles like Ferguson come out every couple of seasons or so. Prospects like Williams are very rare. A DE of his size with his athletic ability is hard to come by. Julius Peppers is right up there with Dwight Freeney as one of the best DEs in the league, and Williams seems like a Julius Peppers clone.
On steriods he is bigger, faster, and stronger than JP. Which is hard to believe.

BuffSoldier
03-20-2006, 10:44 PM
3. Dbrickshaw is a great prospect..but he isnt a rare prospect. Tackles like Ferguson come out every couple of seasons or so. Prospects like Williams are very rare.

Although I do agree with most of your post, I must disagree on this one point. Both players are rare prospects. Just wait until his pro day tommorow. I think that his shuttle speed will be the most impressive out of all the o-lineman in the draft. Hes not big, but he is the most athletic prospect since Pace, just as Williams is to Peppers. Even players like Gallery who were top OT prospects in their own right were not in the same league as Ferguson.

This is because Gallery and other top OT prospects are more complete players than Ferguson, who is still head and shoulders over them in athletic ablility, but still has alot to learn and a lot of strenght to gain as well.

Scooter
03-21-2006, 01:09 AM
I would love to have williams if we could trade down to get him, but don't think we need to sell out the farm for D'Brick we should trust the system with the personnel we got and fix other holes on the team.

we can draft d'brick and address holes with our other picks....

it works in the draft bush arguements :ok:

TheOgre
03-21-2006, 07:25 AM
wats wrong with reggie? he's a playmaker and will improve our offense drastically :superman:

Well, Bush plays in a position of strength for the team and Williams and Ferguson play in positions/areas that have been team weaknesses since day 1.

Trap_Star
03-21-2006, 12:05 PM
Although I do agree with most of your post, I must disagree on this one point. Both players are rare prospects. Just wait until his pro day tommorow. I think that his shuttle speed will be the most impressive out of all the o-lineman in the draft. Hes not big, but he is the most athletic prospect since Pace, just as Williams is to Peppers. Even players like Gallery who were top OT prospects in their own right were not in the same league as Ferguson.

This is because Gallery and other top OT prospects are more complete players than Ferguson, who is still head and shoulders over them in athletic ablility, but still has alot to learn and a lot of strenght to gain as well.

Well said buff...:ok:

Dunta_23
03-21-2006, 12:09 PM
I just dont see Kubiak bringing in a player like D'Brick that high in the draft...he seems to prefer late round guys that he and his staff develop into the players they want them to be..I personally dont think we can go wrong with Brick, Mario, or Bush

beerlover
03-21-2006, 12:13 PM
I just dont see Kubiak bringing in a player like D'Brick that high in the draft...he seems to prefer late round guys that he and his staff develop into the players they want them to be..I personally dont think we can go wrong with Brick, Mario, or Bush

fair enough, but what about McNair and his promise to Carr "we must do a better job of protecting David" & will it be time for Casserly to step up to the coach and say "this is what we need the most". Not to mention D'Brickashaw is perfect for Kubiacs zone blocking scheme :twocents:

infantrycak
03-21-2006, 12:19 PM
I just dont see Kubiak bringing in a player like D'Brick that high in the draft...he seems to prefer late round guys that he and his staff develop into the players they want them to be..I personally dont think we can go wrong with Brick, Mario, or Bush

Just a couple of drafts ago they used the 20th pick on George Foster. Not saying they will take D'Brick, but if he is the value at the spot they are picking and fits the system the track record actually supports them being willing to spend a high pick on an OT.

el toro
03-21-2006, 01:23 PM
How good the Texans have it (on draft day) when the talk is of 'settling' for Reggie Bush.

stevo3883
03-21-2006, 01:25 PM
Although I do agree with most of your post, I must disagree on this one point. Both players are rare prospects. Just wait until his pro day tommorow. I think that his shuttle speed will be the most impressive out of all the o-lineman in the draft. Hes not big, but he is the most athletic prospect since Pace, just as Williams is to Peppers. Even players like Gallery who were top OT prospects in their own right were not in the same league as Ferguson.

This is because Gallery and other top OT prospects are more complete players than Ferguson, who is still head and shoulders over them in athletic ablility, but still has alot to learn and a lot of strenght to gain as well.

gallery was bigger(6'7" 325), stronger, ran a 4.98 40, 456-pound bench press, 620-pound squat 382-pound power clean,31-inch vertical jump, 4.38 20-yard shuttle, 7.43 three-cone drill

Ferguson is by no means "head and shoulders" above him. if he is even above him at all

Coach C.
03-21-2006, 01:36 PM
Stevo this may be one of the only times I agree with your horn loving behind. Anyway you are right on this one Gallery was a beast coming out and Ferguson is a very good blocker, maybe better technique than Gallery, but no were near the beast Gallery was and is. Mario or Bush are the only options worthy of a number 1 pick for us unless we go with Leinhart, but since that is not happening it is Mario or Bush. Bush is the pick and I am ok with that, but Mario will change the game so much more. It is easier for a defense to gameplan for speed and options, but it is harder for an offense to change what it wants to do because of a freakish pass rusher that gets sacks and pressures. Ask Carr, Peyton, or any other QB that you respect and they will tell you the same thing.

Dunta_23
03-21-2006, 01:40 PM
I agree that Brick would be a solid pick..I just think that the staff feels they can teach a guy to block but you cant teach a player Reggies skills or Mario Williams skills etc. I wouldnt be dissapointed with Brick at all.

As to Bob McNair's promise to help David Carr out...Drafting a LT # 1 overall doesnt solve that problem...it would help but it doesnt solve it....there are a number of good tackles in this draft but this line isnt 1 LT away from keeping DC in the pocket all the time...they need a solid C, a good G and a good T...and then time to work together...if they draft 2 linemen and pick up 1 or 2 in FA this yr then they will start to have the proper depth and players can start to fight for jobs and start to learn the system so that if 1 lineman goes down the entrie thing doesnt go to shambles.

BuffSoldier
03-21-2006, 01:48 PM
gallery was bigger(6'7" 325), stronger, ran a 4.98 40, 456-pound bench press, 620-pound squat 382-pound power clean,31-inch vertical jump, 4.38 20-yard shuttle, 7.43 three-cone drill
Ferguson is by no means "head and shoulders" above him. if he is even above him at all


Stevo this may be one of the only times I agree with your horn loving behind. Anyway you are right on this one Gallery was a beast coming out and Ferguson is a very good blocker, maybe better technique than Gallery, but no were near the beast Gallery was and is. Mario or Bush are the only options worthy of a number 1 pick for us unless we go with Leinhart, but since that is not happening it is Mario or Bush. Bush is the pick and I am ok with that, but Mario will change the game so much more. It is easier for a defense to gameplan for speed and options, but it is harder for an offense to change what it wants to do because of a freakish pass rusher that gets sacks and pressures. Ask Carr, Peyton, or any other QB that you respect and they will tell you the same thing.

Both of you guys are completely right and just proved my point, as a player, Gallery was the more complete tackle and a good OT prospect, but the better PROSPECT of the 2 is D'Brickashaw Ferguson. It is kinda like the Matt Leinart/VY comparison. Matt is better now without a doubt, but if VY pans out as he is supposed to, he may become one of the more dominant QBs ever.

Now with Gallery and Ferguson, you have one guy who was a big beast in the runnign game and also a great pass protector, but my point is that. Ferguson can and will get bigger and stronger, which we see that he already has. But Gallery, who is athletic in his own right, will never be able to match Ferguson at the prime of both of their careers, because he will never be able to learn the athleticism, unlike Ferguson, who can get bigger stronger and be coached to run block more effectively.

Kaiser Toro
03-21-2006, 02:52 PM
Now with Gallery and Ferguson, you have one guy who was a big beast in the runnign game and also a great pass protector, but my point is that. Ferguson can and will get bigger and stronger, which we see that he already has. But Gallery, who is athletic in his own right, will never be able to match Ferguson at the prime of both of their careers, because he will never be able to learn the athleticism, unlike Ferguson, who can get bigger stronger and be coached to run block more effectively.

Gallery looked pretty athletic to me and Dbrick has got slow hips and feet in my opinion. Brick may have the tale of the tape in potential, but I just can't get it out of my head how Tapp manhandled him with a speed rush and bull rush in the same game. Everyone has a bad game, but that was an awful performance against a poor man's Dwight Freeney.

Coach C.
03-21-2006, 03:02 PM
Ok well I wont say Fergy has slow hips and feet. KT he has stiffer hips now that he has gained weight, and the inside move that Tapp used well that was just funny. Tapp in an interview said "I know my measurables may not be up there with those considered the best at the position, but look at the Virginia v. Virginia Tech game and you see what I can do against the best out there." That was priceless to me. Tapp did use him and well he had a down year and that is why Winston won ACC Lineman of the Year a honor most people thought was Ferguson's to lose. Buff if anything Fergy and Gallery are equally athletic. Gallery has the ability to be right up there with the Pace's and Jones of the league. Unfortunately he is getting some questionable coaching in Oakland, could you imagine Gallery if he had Carl Mauck or Russ Grimm as a coach the kid would be an All Pro already. What a waste.

Kaiser Toro
03-21-2006, 04:21 PM
Ok well I wont say Fergy has slow hips and feet. KT he has stiffer hips now that he has gained weight

I would agree that I left myself open to perceived exaggeration there, but they are not as fast as I would expect to see from a prospect who is championed as a freak athlete but is relatively diminutive in girth.

infantrycak
03-21-2006, 05:16 PM
KT he has stiffer hips now that he has gained weight,

Just curious how you know this as his weight gain has been since the end of the season?

Coach C.
03-21-2006, 05:34 PM
Just curious how you know this as his weight gain has been since the end of the season?

Careful examination of his movements during the Senior Bowl and that was at 297. He is now 313 so he will still be stiff. Now I am not saying that he will not learn to play with the weight, but like most athletes who have had to gain weight, I being one, you just have to learn to play with the weight. So I think Fergy will be ok, but his hips are stiffer now that he has gained weight and it will be interesting to see how he reacts when put on a serious strength program.

BuffSoldier
03-21-2006, 05:36 PM
I would agree that I left myself open to perceived exaggeration there, but they are not as fast as I would expect to see from a prospect who is championed as a freak athlete but is relatively diminutive in girth.

Who are you comparing him to. If you saw his senior bowl, or regular season game film, you could tell that he is totally quicker than any other offensive lineman by far. Even when I watched clips from NFL.com I could tell how much quicker he was than evry other offensive lineman, including Winston.This s after he moved up to 297. Watching his film with Winstons to me is like watching Reggie Bush highlights, then DeAngelo Williams highlights. After watching the first guy, you are unimpressed by the second one, even though you know that he is still playing at a great level.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 08:12 AM
Who are you comparing him to. If you saw his senior bowl, or regular season game film, you could tell that he is totally quicker than any other offensive lineman by far. Even when I watched clips from NFL.com I could tell how much quicker he was than evry other offensive lineman, including Winston.This s after he moved up to 297. Watching his film with Winstons to me is like watching Reggie Bush highlights, then DeAngelo Williams highlights. After watching the first guy, you are unimpressed by the second one, even though you know that he is still playing at a great level.

Comparing him to what I have seen in past drafts.

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 01:21 PM
gallery was bigger(6'7" 325), stronger, ran a 4.98 40, 456-pound bench press, 620-pound squat … 382-pound power clean,31-inch vertical jump, 4.38 20-yard shuttle, 7.43 three-cone drill

Ferguson is by no means "head and shoulders" above him. if he is even above him at all

Gil Brandt on Dbrick during VA scout day:
Ferguson (6-5 7/8, 305) ran the 40s in 5.09 and 5.07. His measurements are 35½-inch arm and 10½-inch hand. He had a 30-inch vertical jump and an 8-foot-11 long jump. He ran 4.89 in the short shuttle and 7.64 in the three-cone drill, but slipped on both runs due to the hard surface.

http://nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts#va

Runner
03-22-2006, 02:38 PM
gallery was bigger(6'7" 325), stronger, ran a 4.98 40, 456-pound bench press, 620-pound squat 382-pound power clean,31-inch vertical jump, 4.38 20-yard shuttle, 7.43 three-cone drill

Ferguson is by no means "head and shoulders" above him. if he is even above him at all


Gil Brandt on Dbrick during VA scout day:
Ferguson (6-5 7/8, 305) ran the 40s in 5.09 and 5.07. His measurements are 35-inch arm and 10-inch hand. He had a 30-inch vertical jump and an 8-foot-11 long jump. He ran 4.89 in the short shuttle and 7.64 in the three-cone drill, but slipped on both runs due to the hard surface.

http://nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts#va


So, are any of these numbers truly outstanding? Which ones show significance for predicting game play, or is this just more stuff that should be taken with a grain of salt and probably shouldn't be measured anyway?

Opinions?

Texas
03-22-2006, 02:44 PM
Either way - reggie mario or d'brick we still come out winners!

Kaiser Toro
03-22-2006, 03:59 PM
So, are any of these numbers truly outstanding? Which ones show significance for predicting game play, or is this just more stuff that should be taken with a grain of salt and probably shouldn't be measured anyway?

Opinions?

My analysis based just on the numbers here show that DBrick's label as one of the most athletic OL in years is not failsafe, once again just on the numbers. With most claiming that he needs to put on more weight, teams that have zone blocking would most likely be expempted, it would make one think that there would be a drop off in his agility.

Runner
03-22-2006, 05:21 PM
My analysis based just on the numbers here show that DBrick's label as one of the most athletic OL in years is not failsafe, once again just on the numbers. With most claiming that he needs to put on more weight, teams that have zone blocking would most likely be expempted, it would make one think that there would be a drop off in his agility.

I'm glad you said that!

How about somebody at least as athletic (based just on the numbers) that already has the extra weight and costs about $30M less? Assuming Wand can improve through better coaching to reach his potential, does D'Brick have $30M worth of unteachable skill above that?

Ferguson (6-5 7/8, 305)
Wand (6'7" 321)

F: 40s in 5.09 and 5.07
W: 40 in 5.10

F: 35½-inch arm and 10½-inch hand
W: 34-inch arm and 10 ¼-inch hand

F: 30 inch vertical 8'11" long
W: 31½ inch vertical 8'11" long

F: 4.89 short shuttle 7.64 three cone
W: 4.50 short shuttle 7.57 three cone

For reference here are the averages for Wand's 2003 combine left tackles:
6’5 3/8” – 315
40 – 5.29
Vert – 28.5
Long 8’2”
Shuttle 4.79
Three cone 8.16

http://www.ffmastermind.com/2003/premium/madness/combineresults.html

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2003/CombineAnalysis2.htm

MorKnolle
03-22-2006, 08:51 PM
So, are any of these numbers truly outstanding? Which ones show significance for predicting game play, or is this just more stuff that should be taken with a grain of salt and probably shouldn't be measured anyway?

Opinions?

Ferguson's numbers weren't outstanding, even compared to the OLinemen this year. However, these measurables obvioulsy are not the only thing that matters, there is a lot of technique, intelligence, etc. that will have a great impact on how players play the game, these numbers just attempt to measure their athletic abilities compared to other guys at their position and give some kind of indication of what they are physically capable of doing. You can teach technique, you can teach some intelligence, but it's hard to teach any of these athletic abilities, although it is also hard to teach other intangibles that some players have.

I posted the top 10 results among OLinemen for most of the combine drills, at least the ones listed on NFL.com. Here is the thread I posted them in if you want to check those out and see how D'Brick stacks up against this year's competition.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=298997#post298997

Runner
03-22-2006, 08:55 PM
I posted the top 10 results among OLinemen for most of the combine drills, at least the ones listed on NFL.com. Here is the thread I posted them in if you want to check those out and see how D'Brick stacks up against this year's competition.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=298997#post298997

Thanks - I missed that one.

Note that both Wand and Ferguson had very good numbers against the average of tackles at the 2003 combine.