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View Full Version : O-Line, Still not addressing the problem!


War_Eagle
03-19-2006, 01:55 PM
It is the same old song and dance again. There were alot of good free agent offensive lineman available and the Texans were asleep at the wheel again! This team NEEDS O-lineman it doesn't matter if they take Reggie Bush with the first pick, he will be a BUST this year behind this line! It doesn't take an engineer to figure out the problem year in and year out, THE O-LINE STINKS. ESPN hit it right on the head with the commercial they had a year or so ago, about what does your team need in the drat and there stood Carr with no line at all in front of him against the Cowboys. That hits home every year. This is pathetic.:brickwall

mexican_texan
03-19-2006, 02:02 PM
This is a good sign. By not getting anyone in the offseason, besides the very good center we're going after, we're saying that we are waiting for the big paydays to pass and draft OLmen and sign some vets later.

War_Eagle
03-19-2006, 02:07 PM
It hasn't occured to you that by then the better players have signed with other teams? Then were left with the hand me downs that couldn't make it with anoither team.....If they want to be a top notch organization then they need to pick up top notch players and not wait for the scraps.........

jacquescas
03-19-2006, 02:07 PM
I think we are doing a decent job. We bring in Flanagan and Ashworth and ill be pretty stocked about the upgrades to the line. Ashworth is the quick mobile O-lineman that Kubiack likes. Flannagan is a former Sherman guy.

If we sign these two guys who we are targeting, and have brought in for visits. Our line will be much upgraded. Albiet we will not have the most crucial position in LT, all other spots on the line will be quite solid with Mckinney playing guard, Flannangan at center. Pitts at the other guard and Ashworth at tackle. We will probably move Pitts back to LT and let weigart and wade fight for the last guard spot.

I think we are going to spend a first day pick on the O-line too. probably our second rounder. We pick up a left tackle prospect there and our line could be solid. The oldest starter flannagan would have young hodgon learning behind him.

But its all on getting the players we have targeted. Flannagan and Ashworth.

TEXANS84
03-19-2006, 02:09 PM
This team NEEDS O-lineman it doesn't matter if they take Reggie Bush with the first pick, he will be a BUST this year behind this line!

Pass protection and run-blocking are two totally different things.

TexanBacker93
03-19-2006, 02:10 PM
It is the same old song and dance again. There were alot of good free agent offensive lineman available and the Texans were asleep at the wheel again! This team NEEDS O-lineman it doesn't matter if they take Reggie Bush with the first pick, he will be a BUST this year behind this line! It doesn't take an engineer to figure out the problem year in and year out, THE O-LINE STINKS. ESPN hit it right on the head with the commercial they had a year or so ago, about what does your team need in the drat and there stood Carr with no line at all in front of him against the Cowboys. That hits home every year. This is pathetic.:brickwall

Who are the all-pro linemen you are wanting the Texans to target? I'm not saying the line play does need improving. There are still linemen that haven't signed and adding a couple of them is still a possibility. Bentley was never going to come to Houston so if that's the main guy you are thinking of you can't place the blame on the Texans doorstep.

mexican_texan
03-19-2006, 02:14 PM
It hasn't occured to you that by then the better players have signed with other teams? Then were left with the hand me downs that couldn't make it with anoither team.....If they want to be a top notch organization then they need to pick up top notch players and not wait for the scraps.........
The closer we are to the start of free agency, the more likely it will be that we overpay for a FA. Besides, there are still some guys that could be cut.

PapaL
03-19-2006, 02:16 PM
This team NEEDS O-lineman it doesn't matter if they take Reggie Bush with the first pick, he will be a BUST this year behind this line! It doesn't take an engineer to figure out the problem year in and year out, THE O-LINE STINKS.

Yeah because the guy with lesser talent (DD) has run for a 1000+ yards, so obviously the guy with more talent (Bush) will do less with the 15th ranked rushing offense from last year (from ESPN.com) (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=teamrush&sort=yds&pos=off&league=nfl&season=2&year=2005). Stop watching commercials and pay more attention to your team.

zeplin
03-19-2006, 02:22 PM
It is the same old song and dance again. There were alot of good free agent offensive lineman available and the Texans were asleep at the wheel again! This team NEEDS O-lineman it doesn't matter if they take Reggie Bush with the first pick, he will be a BUST this year behind this line! It doesn't take an engineer to figure out the problem year in and year out, THE O-LINE STINKS. ESPN hit it right on the head with the commercial they had a year or so ago, about what does your team need in the drat and there stood Carr with no line at all in front of him against the Cowboys. That hits home every year. This is pathetic.:brickwall



AMEN

I have said this so many times over the last 5 months. I think Kubiak is aware of this fact and he has a method to his madness.
D'Brickshaw Fergusen is looking pretty good. If we get GB's Center then this seems to be the next logical step.
We do not need a high dollar RB from USC. Kubiak is a Offensive Coordinator and a successsfull one at that. Capers never had a clue and he failed to suround himself with a good OC for four years and that is why he is gone.


A real every down TE would be a big help too.:homer:

Carr Bombed
03-19-2006, 02:22 PM
Pass protection and run-blocking are two totally different things.

Don't you ever get tired of saying that. I have to constantly remind people that on the jags board and now we have to do it here. :brickwall

jacquescas
03-19-2006, 02:24 PM
Ill keep saying we walk out of free agency with Flanagan and Ashworth and we are doing great.

War_Eagle
03-19-2006, 02:33 PM
Who are the all-pro linemen you are wanting the Texans to target? I'm not saying the line play does need improving. There are still linemen that haven't signed and adding a couple of them is still a possibility. Bentley was never going to come to Houston so if that's the main guy you are thinking of you can't place the blame on the Texans doorstep.
Guard Toniu Fonoti,
Tackle, L.j. Shelton
Center, Kevin Mawae
Center, Justin Hartwig
Tackle, Stocker McDougal
Tackle, Mike Williams
Guard, Jason Whittle
Tackle, Jason Fabini
Guard, Juaquin Gonzalez
And possibly a couple others if they don't resign with there currant team

War_Eagle
03-19-2006, 02:36 PM
And as far as run bloking and pass protection being two different things they are, BUT if you can't throw, teams will stack the line of scrimmage and beat your running game to death, So they are connected as far as having a complete and balanced team.

PokerStar
03-19-2006, 02:40 PM
Hey Seth McKinney is out there we could sign him to compete at C. He fits the system and has started in Miami for a year or two now. Not sure we want another McKinney on the line, but he is pretty talented. War_Eagle just looking at your list other than Hartwig the rest of the guys dont really fit our system. Juaquin Gonzalez is from the U and can play a little Tackle in a pinch though. Not overly anxious for the Texans to go hard in FA. Yeah the OL has suffered, but right now I would think our line just penciled in looks something like this
LT Chester Pitts-LG Steve McKinney- C Drew Hogdon-RG Fread Weary-RT Zach Weigert.

To me that is a pretty solid line that could use upgrades at C and RG. Also would need to bring in a RT later in the draft to be mentored by Weigert for a year.

Wolf
03-19-2006, 02:40 PM
Guard Toniu Fonoti,
Tackle, L.j. Shelton
Center, Kevin Mawae
Center, Justin Hartwig
Tackle, Stocker McDougal
Tackle, Mike Williams
Guard, Jason Whittle
Tackle, Jason Fabini
Guard, Juaquin Gonzalez
And possibly a couple others if they don't resign with there currant team

if this is a list of current players still available ..then I believe Fabini,williams (jacksonville) and Mawae .. are gone already

if this was a list of people we should have hit earlier in FA..then forgive me for not reading this right

Carr Bombed
03-19-2006, 02:42 PM
And as far as run bloking and pass protection being two different things they are, BUT if you can't throw, teams will stack the line of scrimmage and beat your running game to death, So they are connected as far as having a complete and balanced team. Despite being a 4th round pick with below avg. speed DD has come in and put up two 1000 yard seasons and would of put up a third if he could just stay healthy and we are about to install Denver's running scheme. I really don't think Bush or the Texans are going to have a problem running the ball.

War_Eagle
03-19-2006, 02:43 PM
Yeah because the guy with lesser talent (DD) has run for a 1000+ yards, so obviously the guy with more talent (Bush) will do less with the 15th ranked rushing offense from last year (from ESPN.com) (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=teamrush&sort=yds&pos=off&league=nfl&season=2&year=2005). Stop watching commercials and pay more attention to your team.Making a point! I do pay attention to my team, thats the problem, the team doesn't pay attention to itself. Everything begins up front. You honestly think that this team will be saved by Reggie Bush alone? Ashworth and Flanagan are not a sure thing.

War_Eagle
03-19-2006, 02:45 PM
if this is a list of current players still available ..then I believe Fabini,williams (jacksonville) and Mawae .. are gone already

if this was a list of people we should have hit earlier in FA..then forgive me for not reading this rightNo these were all FA at the beginning and most have already signed with other teams

Carr Bombed
03-19-2006, 02:46 PM
Can we please wait until FA and the draft has passed before we blast the team for moves not made.

Mattheus_Rex
03-19-2006, 02:46 PM
What do we have to do to get rid of Casserly

jacquescas
03-19-2006, 02:49 PM
Ashworth and Flanagan are not a sure thing.

True they are not sure things, but they are still upgrades to what we currently have on the roster. the "sure things" went for 7 years 49 million (Hutchinson) and 6 years 36 million (Bently) and neither was a left tackle.

TexanSam
03-19-2006, 02:49 PM
And as far as run bloking and pass protection being two different things they are, BUT if you can't throw, teams will stack the line of scrimmage and beat your running game to death, So they are connected as far as having a complete and balanced team.

Well seeing as our passing game was basically a 2 step drop and throw a screen pass, you figure teams would have stacked the line of scrimmage last year. But, Davis, Morency, and Wells combined for 1485 yards last year. Not too bad when you have 8 man fronts.

As for getting an O-lineman, I made the same complaint a couple of days ago. My thread is probably on the 2nd page somewhere. We are looking at Tom Ashworth and Mike Flanagan. Ashworth would provide better depth than we've ever had and Flanagan would be an immediate upgrade over anyone else, assuming he stays healthy. We aren't going to remake the entire offensive line in one offseason. McKinney, Pitts, and Wade or Weigert will probably all be starters next year.

YoungTexanFan
03-19-2006, 03:26 PM
Youe forgetting the June 1st cuts.

Mathis13
03-19-2006, 05:37 PM
Well seeing as our passing game was basically a 2 step drop and throw a screen pass, you figure teams would have stacked the line of scrimmage last year. But, Davis, Morency, and Wells combined for 1485 yards last year. Not too bad when you have 8 man fronts.

As for getting an O-lineman, I made the same complaint a couple of days ago. My thread is probably on the 2nd page somewhere. We are looking at Tom Ashworth and Mike Flanagan. Ashworth would provide better depth than we've ever had and Flanagan would be an immediate upgrade over anyone else, assuming he stays healthy. We aren't going to remake the entire offensive line in one offseason. McKinney, Pitts, and Wade or Weigert will probably all be starters next year.
Even if we don't sign any big name FA O-linemen we have Mike sherman one of the greatest O-Line coaches so i guess it cant get any worse than last year :ok:

Ibar_Harry
03-19-2006, 05:42 PM
Even if we don't sign any big name FA O-linemen we have Mike sherman one of the greatest O-Line coaches so i guess it cant get any worse than last year :ok:

With Sherman in place even Mr. B might even think about coming out of retirement.

mexican_texan
03-19-2006, 05:42 PM
Can we please wait until FA and the draft has passed before we blast the team for moves not made.
You might as well ask a 2-year old to sit down and be quiet for a few hours. It just won't happen.

TEXANS84
03-19-2006, 05:49 PM
Don't you ever get tired of saying that. I have to constantly remind people that on the jags board and now we have to do it here. :brickwall

If I had a dollar for everytime I've said that, I'd be a rich man.

mexican_texan
03-19-2006, 05:53 PM
I'd be a rich man.
in my eyes, you are

Even Mark Shlerith of NFL Live, who was a fan of trading down and played OG for the Broncos, doesn't know the difference.

pearland
04-01-2006, 08:18 PM
I still think an OT/OG should be our second round pick. If the OT/OG pool is gone, I think we should pick either a DB (I do not think this year's draft is that deep in DBs) or a TE (just because I think there is good talent at this pos. this year).

OL tales longer to develop. CB can be addressed in other ways. FS & SS upgrades/depth... should be easily addressed in FA, not needing to spend draft choice.

dat_boy_yec
04-01-2006, 09:59 PM
Well, nobody is complaining anymore about not signing linemen anymore. We've picked up 2 and still have the draft. Yup, this looks like a very solid off-season.

Bobo
04-01-2006, 10:57 PM
It is the same old song and dance again. There were alot of good free agent offensive lineman available and the Texans were asleep at the wheel again! This team NEEDS O-lineman it doesn't matter if they take Reggie Bush with the first pick, he will be a BUST this year behind this line! It doesn't take an engineer to figure out the problem year in and year out, THE O-LINE STINKS. ESPN hit it right on the head with the commercial they had a year or so ago, about what does your team need in the drat and there stood Carr with no line at all in front of him against the Cowboys. That hits home every year. This is pathetic.:brickwall

Many of these folks are simply living in Dreamland like they did last year, talking about 11 wins and making the playoffs. Same song, same tune this year. They think that everything will be just fine if the Texans perform a Chinese fire drill in the OL and then Kubiak waves his hands, shouts, "Abracadabra!" and all will be right with the world as the Texans magically reduce their sacks by 60% with the same personnel, just changing their position on the field. Meanwhile, the Texans go out and grab folks like Rosenfelds, Cook and Walter and people yell, "Great offseason! We're headed to the playoffs!" Tsk, tsk. Yeah, right.

Bobo
04-01-2006, 10:58 PM
Well, nobody is complaining anymore about not signing linemen anymore. We've picked up 2 and still have the draft. Yup, this looks like a very solid off-season.

Yeah, right.

edo783
04-01-2006, 10:59 PM
Well, nobody is complaining anymore about not signing linemen anymore. We've picked up 2 and still have the draft. Yup, this looks like a very solid off-season.


Weeelll, yes we picked up 2 O-line guys. One pretty darn good at a real need position, but probably not going to play for more than 2-3 years IF he stays healthy. The other guy looks like a fairly solid depth guy and while that is very important to have around, we are sorely lacking yet on the right side of the line. Weigert is good, but old and having trouble staying in the game while Wade has feet that are in cement and won't fit this scheme at all. Wand MAY wind up working ouy, but that is very much TBD at this point. Have we improved the line......probably, but how much is very much up in the air at this point IMO and the draft will not likely have much of an effect on the line until the 07 season, so probably not much this year as it usually takes a year or two for an O-line guy to get used to the NFL.

Bobo
04-01-2006, 11:00 PM
I still think an OT/OG should be our second round pick. If the OT/OG pool is gone, I think we should pick either a DB (I do not think this year's draft is that deep in DBs) or a TE (just because I think there is good talent at this pos. this year).

OL tales longer to develop. CB can be addressed in other ways. FS & SS upgrades/depth... should be easily addressed in FA, not needing to spend draft choice.

If it takes longer to develop, then you'd better draft a whole bunch of them and get started. And throw some picks at the defense, too, because that part of the team needs a whole lot of help as well.

Bobo
04-01-2006, 11:01 PM
Weeelll, yes we picked up 2 O-line guys. One pretty darn good at a real need position, but probably not going to play for more than 2-3 years IF he stays healthy. The other guy looks like a fairly solid depth guy and while that is very important to have around, we are sorely lacking yet on the right side of the line. Weigert is good, but old and having trouble staying in the game while Wade has feet that are in cement and won't fit this scheme at all. Wand MAY wind up working ouy, but that is very much TBD at this point. Have we improved the line......probably, but how much is very much up in the air at this point IMO and the draft will not likely have much of an effect on the line until the 07 season, so probably not much this year as it usually takes a year or two for an O-line guy to get used to the NFL.

If you're an offensive lineman and can't start on the Texans, then you are pretty sorry.

dat_boy_yec
04-01-2006, 11:54 PM
Ok, let me break down our current line. We got a center in Flannagan older yes, but capable of handling the duties while Hodgdon is prepared behind him. Last season Hodgdon stepped in during his rookie season to play for a joke of an o-line scheme and did well while he was there. McKinney moved over to LG his natural position. True McKinney is no spring chicken, but he has enough gas in the tank to last while another prospect is groomed. Pitts and Wand are both capable tackles and young IF you drafted a tackle this yr. it would more than likely be for depth. Which I wouldn't be against because Wade needs to be replaced. Weigart should be able to hold it down until Weary can step in, contrary to popular belief Weary can handle the RG pos. We got another G for depth that fits the Z-scheme. So, at Center we're set. G we could use a draftee for future development, but have good players for the short term. Tackles need depth. The line has been drastically improved. The biggest improvement should come from the coaching though. Last yr. they mocked the schemes we were using on National TV and all the previous line coaches are now unemployed. We don't have the greatest line in the world but we have set a platform on which the team can build something that has been absent in this franchises history. The current line and coaching alone at the current level should not allow more than 25 sacks. With whoever we take in the draft the 2007 line should be much better. It's a progressive improvement.

TexanFanInCC
04-02-2006, 12:04 AM
Pass protection and run-blocking are two totally different things.

i agree. if domanick davis can rush for over 4 yds per carry, then certainly bush can do the same. the zone blocking is used primarily in the run game, not in passing situations. besides, to whoever started this topic...why are you so pessimistic?! mike flanagan is pro-bowl caliber, mckinney is playing is natural LG spot now and he has been arguably the texans' most consistent o-lineman in the history of the franchise. i like zach wiegert, and chester pitts is establishing himself has top-tier among LT's. the new coaching staff alone would help the o-line considerably even without the addition of flanagan. with him, he makes the line that much better.

wolf123
04-02-2006, 12:18 AM
I think we all agree that the secondary is one of our main concerns going into the draft b/c no key FA additions were made other than the re-signing of a few backups. Also, do to the fact that we made so many offensive FA moves, I can't believe that we would spend our second pick on an offensive player if we pick up Bush with the 1st. That being said, I believe one of the top corners will fall to the 2nd and that we will mostly likely pick him up whether its Cromatie, Joseph, or Richard Marshall. This would add a likely starter to CB position opposite Dunta. Next, in the third I could see an OT/OG going with our 1st and a FS pickup with our second 3rd. Pat Watkins would be an amazing steal if he made it to the 3rd (got size and skill). Also, Ko Simpson looks pretty good, along with Charlie Peprah and Greg Blue. Between Blue and Peprah, I believe Peprah would be a more solid FS, blessed with good coverage skills, a leadership mentality, and a desire to lay a good hit down. Many of the other safeties available are more suited as SS, lacking in the coverage area, and Lord knows we have that already with CC and Earl. Don't get me wrong, I like those two and they may do well together this season if they beat out any competition, but as of right now and the rookie mistakes made last season, drafting a solid FS would be smart. Other defensive and OL positions could be addressed with the final picks

With the 3rd pick we would probably pick up Jonathan Scott or Daryn Colledge for the OT position and possibly look at Rob Sims, Fred Matua, or Will Allen for OG in the 5th round, Sims would most likely have to be picked up in the 3rd if we wanted him. All of these guys have great footwork and could be dominant later on down the road (and I stress COULD be).

wolf123
04-02-2006, 12:20 AM
Mainly all that I am stressing is that the OT/OG depth is good this year and to reach in the 2nd would be a waste. Also, this has been broughten up countless times, but Kubiac is used to picking up lineman in the later rounds so I do not see him picking one up in the 2nd

Bobo
04-02-2006, 12:32 AM
Last yr. they mocked the schemes we were using on National TV and all the previous line coaches are now unemployed. We don't have the greatest line in the world but we have set a platform on which the team can build something that has been absent in this franchises history. The current line and coaching alone at the current level should not allow more than 25 sacks. With whoever we take in the draft the 2007 line should be much better. It's a progressive improvement.

A.) Who cares what the national media say? Those guys couldn't keep their jobs themselves, so how could are they? B.) Not only do the Texans not have the greatest line in the world -- it is indeed the joke of the league. But not because of what the national media says. They don't know diddly, as evidenced by the fact that two of those three guys are no longer going to be doing NFL games themselves. C.) So basically the same guys who started for the team are going to cut the amount of sacks down from 68 to 25??? Umm, pardon me for being skeptical.

el toro
04-02-2006, 01:46 AM
A.) Who cares what the national media say? Those guys couldn't keep their jobs themselves, so how could are they? B.) Not only do the Texans not have the greatest line in the world -- it is indeed the joke of the league. But not because of what the national media says. They don't know diddly, as evidenced by the fact that two of those three guys are no longer going to be doing NFL games themselves. C.) So basically the same guys who started for the team are going to cut the amount of sacks down from 68 to 25??? Umm, pardon me for being skeptical.


Yet another example of Capers' greatness.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-03-2006, 11:11 AM
This is the reason to try to get this guy in the draft and I think if the Texans trade down they can get him

NFL | More on W. Justice's Pro Day results
Sun, 2 Apr 2006 19:09:47 -0700

ESPN.com's Len Pasquarelli reports USC OT Winston Justice, who still must resolve some old character issues for NFL scouts before the NFL Draft, was the player who inarguably helped himself the most at his Pro Day Sunday, April 2. In the vertical jump, Justice did 39 inches, an incredible mark for such a big man. He registered 38 "repetitions" in the bench press. Justice pulled up toward the end of the 40-yard drill, clutching his right hamstring, but one AFC scout still said he clocked him at 5.03 seconds. In the pass-block drills, Justice looked very agile and naturally athletic, despite the sore hamstring. "Happy with what I did and happy it's over," said Justice, who missed time during his career because of two off-field incidents, one of which included pulling a pellet gun on a USC student. "We'll just have to see where it goes from here."


Or later if possible

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-03-2006, 11:12 AM
more info

NFL | W. Justice a limited participant at Pro Day
Sun, 2 Apr 2006 15:10:39 -0700

Gil Brandt, of NFL.com, reports USC OT Winston Justice measured 6-6 and weighed 320 pounds at his Pro Day workout Sunday, April 2. Justice had a 34-inch arm length, 39-inch vertical jump, and 38 lifts.

from KFFL.com

edo783
04-03-2006, 02:59 PM
Justice made himself several million dollars at the Pro Day. Probably the ones that Lindale blew away.

TexanFan881
04-03-2006, 03:03 PM
There's no way we get him in the second round. He just had to have a great pro day.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-03-2006, 04:00 PM
So where do you think he will go now with that awesome workout.

That dude is a freak... 39 in vertical??? That is WR heigth and 38 reps in the bench... oh my GOD... I think if he just extends his arms out he could just push half of the liine to the inside for DD to run outside

edo783
04-03-2006, 04:17 PM
So where do you think he will go now with that awesome workout.

That dude is a freak... 39 in vertical??? That is WR heigth and 38 reps in the bench... oh my GOD... I think if he just extends his arms out he could just push half of the liine to the inside for DD to run outside

My guess is he goes off the board between the 5 & 12 picks.

TheOgre
04-03-2006, 04:21 PM
I've stopped complaining about the O-line because I think we could get what would typically be a top 20 OT with our 2nd rounder. Plus we added Flanagan (2 years removed from the Pro Bowl). If we don't draft a top OT prospect, then I will be upset. We need to take care of that position in this draft, because 2007 will be all about defense (Pass rushing DE, MLB, CB, FS).

DominickDavisFan76
04-03-2006, 04:22 PM
I hoping for a miracle

I wish that Gary Kubiak will go tell Winston Justice to fake a serious Hamstring Injury, which he would easily pick him up, because we know he isnt injured, and then pay him 1st round money and go to the super bowl

HAHAHAHAHA:stirpot:

BuffSoldier
04-03-2006, 04:46 PM
Quick question, how long do you guys think that it will take the Texans to make a seriouse playoff run. Not just get to the WildCard and lose, but actually win a roudn or 2. I doubt that it will be this year, or next year, maybe the year after that, but by that time, 80% of our offensive line will be too old to play. Pitts and Hogdon are the only 2 young offensive lineman that are showing promise. Unless Sherman can do something with Wand, I think that he will forever be a backup in the NFL. To me it seems like the Texans are trying to put together a temporary patchwork o-line.

Texans Horror
04-03-2006, 08:08 PM
IMHO, they have upgraded tremendously by (hopefully) fixing the coaching. Flanagan is an added bonus, and I really don't think we'll see any other new names on the line.

I would like to see us pull a lineman with #33, though. It would be nice to have a lineman in the wings to take a spot from one of our older guys.

carrstud34
04-03-2006, 08:24 PM
we just need to get some more talent in the mix. some of these guys wouldnt even make rosters of other teams. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE.

dalemurphy
04-03-2006, 08:35 PM
Quick question, how long do you guys think that it will take the Texans to make a seriouse playoff run. Not just get to the WildCard and lose, but actually win a roudn or 2. I doubt that it will be this year, or next year, maybe the year after that, but by that time, 80% of our offensive line will be too old to play. Pitts and Hogdon are the only 2 young offensive lineman that are showing promise. Unless Sherman can do something with Wand, I think that he will forever be a backup in the NFL. To me it seems like the Texans are trying to put together a temporary patchwork o-line.


After last season, it's really impossible to know. There are just too many questions. That is the million dollar question. How much of last year's struggles were a result of a lack of talent and how much was coaching. If season #3 was an accurate representation of the talent, I'd say we are in the playoff hunt this year. Whether we have the talent to compete seriously for championships will depend on how high the ceiling is for guys like Carr, AJ, McKinney, Pitts, Wand, Mathis, Robaire, Dunta, TJohnson, etc... I'd say the even if many of them are potential probowlers, it will still take a season under the new staff to grow and develop before we become a force.

My prediction for this season: 5-11 wins... that's about the best I can do right now. I have to say, though, this kind of uncertainty is a lot of fun... After all, where there is uncertainly there also is HOPE!

TexanFan881
04-03-2006, 09:39 PM
Offensive Lineman are able to play good when they are up to about 35. Our O-line has a few more years left in them and over the next two years we can draft several prospects from the draft who will be able to take their place eventually.

Runner
04-03-2006, 09:58 PM
we just need to get some more talent in the mix. some of these guys wouldnt even make rosters of other teams. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE.

I thought about it for more than a minute - Milford Brown (who was basically written off until injury allowed him into the line-up) signed a $12M contract with another team this year. Don't under estimate our talent level or the negative effect of Joe Pendry.

Ibar_Harry
04-03-2006, 10:02 PM
I thought about it for more than a minute - Milford Brown (who was basically written off until injury allowed him into the line-up) signed a $12M contract with another team this year. Don't under estimate our talent level or the negative effect of Joe Pendry.

A lot of us have been saying that for a long time. Same can perhaps be said of Wand. Very few comments from the coaches in this respect. You kind of wonder what they are thinking. I know he can be had for not too much, but is that because they think there will be no takers.....

Kaiser Toro
04-03-2006, 10:04 PM
I thought about it for more than a minute - Milford Brown (who was basically written off until injury allowed him into the line-up) signed a $12M contract with another team this year. Don't under estimate our talent level or the negative effect of Joe Pendry.

Totally agree. Our best talent acquisitions could conceivably be dormant on our roster.

Runner
04-03-2006, 10:24 PM
A lot of us have been saying that for a long time. Same can perhaps be said of Wand. Very few comments from the coaches in this respect. You kind of wonder what they are thinking. I know he can be had for not too much, but is that because they think there will be no takers.....

You can make a guess at what they are thinking by looking at the number of free agent tackles they pursued vs. interior lineman. I'm concluding they think they have starters at tackle on the roster and will draft for depth and grooming.

The way I understand it, even if someone makes an offer to a RFA (Wand in your example) the Texans could then negotiate a longer term or larger deal with that player and keep him. The tender just locks the player in at a good price and makes sure the Texans receive draft compensation if they leave.

Ibar_Harry
04-03-2006, 10:26 PM
You can make a guess at what they are thinking by looking at the number of free agent tackles they pursued vs. interior lineman. I'm concluding they think they have starters at tackle on the roster and will draft for depth and grooming.

The way I understand it, even if someone makes an offer to a RFA (Wand in your example) the Texans could then negotiate a longer term or larger deal with that player and keep him. The tender just locks the player in at a good price and makes sure the Texans receive draft compensation if they leave.

That's what it looks like to me. There have been almost zero comments in requard to Wand. I would really like to know what Sherman thinks of him.

Ibar_Harry
04-03-2006, 10:29 PM
If Kubiak has watched every film of Carr I would bet the same would be true of Sherman and the O-line. It would be fun to know what is going on in their heads with respect to the talent we have on this ball club. We know Brown was released because he doesn't fit and many think Wade is in the same boat. But in reality not a lot has been said....

dalemurphy
04-03-2006, 10:33 PM
If Kubiak has watched every film of Carr I would bet the same would be true of Sherman and the O-line. It would be fun to know what is going on in their heads with respect to the talent we have on this ball club. We know Brown was released because he doesn't fit and many think Wade is in the same boat. But in reality not a lot has been said....


The sports media would rather ask 10 questions about drafting Vince Young or about the shape of David Carr's hair, and the interesting questions like, "how does your opinion on 'x player' differ from the previous staff's opinion?"... Or, "after looking at tape, why did Wand lose his job to Victor Riley last season?" or "do you think Greenwood is more suited for WLB in a 4-3 than the inside of a 3-4 and why?'

Runner
04-03-2006, 10:39 PM
The sports media would rather ask 10 questions about drafting Vince Young or about the shape of David Carr's hair, and the interesting questions like, "how does your opinion on 'x player' differ from the previous staff's opinion?"... Or, "after looking at tape, why did Wand lose his job to Victor Riley last season?" or "do you think Greenwood is more suited for WLB in a 4-3 than the inside of a 3-4 and why?'

Would that be refreshing or what?????

However, I'd probably miss the interview because I rarely listen to sports radio right now unless a big non-Bush/Young event has taken place, i.e. signing Flanagan or Putzier.

el toro
04-03-2006, 10:55 PM
They will be able to take at least one lineman prospect with one of the 2nd or 3rd round picks. Maybe there will also be a cap casualty in the league after June 1st worth picking up. You already have better coaching, a real center and a LG where he's supposed to be. I have a feeling that the Texans' improved line is going to be one of those early season stories that makes the rounds in the media.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-03-2006, 11:12 PM
Just a thought... I think this would be a great draft...

Trade down with Cleveland as they could really use a high caliber RB moving down to 13th pick and also get their (let's be generous) 3rd rounder as well.

#13 - Justice - OT
#33 - Bullock - S - Neb
#65 - Wilkinson - LB - GT
#66 - DeMario Winter - CB - Georgia
#78 - Joseph Addai - RB - LSU (clev pick)
the rest....

:redtowel: :redtowel: :crying:

TexansLucky13
04-03-2006, 11:12 PM
They will be able to take at least one lineman prospect with one of the 2nd or 3rd round picks. Maybe there will also be a cap casualty in the league after June 1st worth picking up. You already have better coaching, a real center and a LG where he's supposed to be. I have a feeling that the Texans' improved line is going to be one of those early season stories that makes the rounds in the media.

McNeil, OT, is projected by most mock drafts to be a priority for the Texans 2nd, 3rd round picks. He is an incredible player, shows much promise. He may end up being the only O-lineman that we get in the top 3 rounds... and I dont believe we need any more than him. So long as we remove Todd Wade from the line (terrible pass blocking), we should fair MUCH better than last year.

Mathis13
04-03-2006, 11:14 PM
McNeil, OT, is projected by most mock drafts to be a priority for the Texans 2nd, 3rd round picks. He is an incredible player, shows much promise. He may end up being the only O-lineman that we get in the top 3 rounds... and I dont believe we need any more than him. So long as we remove Todd Wade from the line (terrible pass blocking), we should fair MUCH better than last year.
I nvr saw McNeil falling all the way down to the 3rd round. however if it did happen that would be sweet

bdiddy
04-03-2006, 11:38 PM
Just a thought... I think this would be a great draft...

Trade down with Cleveland as they could really use a high caliber RB moving down to 13th pick and also get their (let's be generous) 3rd rounder as well.

#13 - Justice - OT
#33 - Bullock - S - Neb
#65 - Wilkinson - LB - GT
#66 - DeMario Winter - CB - Georgia
#78 - Joseph Addai - RB - LSU (clev pick)
the rest....

:redtowel: :redtowel: :crying:

Dude, if we are trading down to #13, we sure as hell are going to get more than a 3rd round pick. Try a 3rd round pick, a 6th round pick, and next years 1st rounder.

kcwilson
04-04-2006, 12:07 AM
Dude, if we are trading down to #13, we sure as hell are going to get more than a 3rd round pick. Try a 3rd round pick, a 6th round pick, and next years 1st rounder.

Totally agree... lest anyone forget, San Diego got huge trade value when they basically traded the #1 overall selection in Vick. There were like 4 or 5 selections they got, INCLUDING a top 5 overall.

I like taking Bush and take OL/DB in the 2nd and 3rd. Remember this is a fairly deep draft so we should get a strong value with the #33.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-04-2006, 08:19 AM
Dude, if we are trading down to #13, we sure as hell are going to get more than a 3rd round pick. Try a 3rd round pick, a 6th round pick, and next years 1st rounder.


Well even better, Like I said in my post BEING GENEROUS (on our part).

I have to believe add Justice to this current offensive line and Carr will have one fo the cleanest jerseys in the NFL, he will get sacked, but nothing like the past.

That would be one mean offensive line with huge protection.

TheOgre
04-04-2006, 09:33 AM
Quick question, how long do you guys think that it will take the Texans to make a seriouse playoff run. Not just get to the WildCard and lose, but actually win a roudn or 2. I doubt that it will be this year, or next year, maybe the year after that, but by that time, 80% of our offensive line will be too old to play. Pitts and Hogdon are the only 2 young offensive lineman that are showing promise. Unless Sherman can do something with Wand, I think that he will forever be a backup in the NFL. To me it seems like the Texans are trying to put together a temporary patchwork o-line.

Great question Buff. I think you have to look at this unit by unit and make some observations:

O-line Pitts, Hodgdon, Wand, and Weary are the only young guys in the squad. I expect Wiegert and Wade to be gone within 2 years. McKinney will probably play most of his contract extension, but not much more. Flanagan is at the tail end of his prime. We need to "restock the shelf". That is why I am big on us taking an OT with our 2nd rounder. Pitts and that rookie should be around for a while. There is no telling if Weary, Wand, and Hodgdon will pan out. It would be great to take an interior lineman with one a middle-round selection.

QB The verdict is still out on Carr. I think they give him 2 years to prove he is a quality starter or they start looking for a new signal caller. I am not fond of The Sage One, and I will leave it at that. The fact that they signed the Sage One tells you all you really need to know about what the new staff thinks of Ragone.

RB
I'm assuming Reggie Bush is our selection. This, along with WR, is one of the few areas of strength for the team. DD and Morency give us three starting quality backs on the roster. I don't think Wells is back due to the investment we have in the position. If we get Bush, I wouldn't be surprised if we tried to trade DD or Morency in the next two years. The fullbacks we have are functional and not much more.

WR Assuming we add Moulds, we are looking at AJ, Moulds, Walters, and Mathis. I think this is one area we are set for a while.

TE Putzier gives us a vertical threat at the position for the first time since Billy Miller was cut. Bruener continues to be a stud run blocker, but not much in the receiving department. Joppru is the "X" factor. He has to show something to stay on the roster. If Joppru actually plays and shows some skills, we could re-sign him. Otherwise I think we will still need to find an all-purpose TE.

Dline
Robaire Smith and TJ should be our starting DT's for years to come. Anthony Weaver is a versative player that can play any where on the line. It is hard to tell what position he will play say 2-3 years from now. Babin and/or Peek needs to step up and show some pass-rushing skills from the weakside. Regardless, I expect us to draft one early next year. We really need a DE stud.
LB's
Cowart is a stop-gap at MLB. Since MLB is a key position in the 4-3, I expect us to spend a first day selection on one either this year or next. Greenwood is a solid WLB with a big contract. I see him around for a few years. Wong just doesn't seem like our solution at SLB. Perhaps one of our many 3-4 tweeners can play the position, but I am not holding my breath. So to re-cap, we need to find a starting (stud) MLB and SLB over the next few years.

DB's
Robinson had an off year in 2005. He is the centerpiece for our secondary. I think it has been established that Buchanon and Faggins are nickel backs at best. We need to find someone to play opposite Robinson.
As for safety, we have two functional guys in CC Brown and Glenn Earl. Both are great against the run but liabilities in coverage. I think they should duke it out for the starting SS spot and we should look in a new direction for our starting FS. Perhaps our WIP, Jammal Lord, could be our backup FS for years to come. Keep an eye on that situation. Regardless, IMO we need to add a starting CB and a starting FS.

ST's
Brown and Stanley are coming off their worst seasons as Texans. They both need to rebound to keep their jobs. Mathis is a stud KR. We have several options at PR with Buchanon (might do something for us), Mathis, and perhaps even Bush (although unlikely).

We have a ton of questions, especially with respect to our defense and O-line. The area of strength for us is our skill positions. Lets just hope that Carr and the offense can improve dramatically with the new additions, because we cannot afford to draft any more skill positions early (1st or 2nd) any time soon (again assuming we take Bush and sign Moulds).

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-04-2006, 10:03 AM
Great question Buff. I think you have to look at this unit by unit and make some observations:

O-line Pitts, Hodgdon, Wand, and Weary are the only young guys in the squad. I expect Wiegert and Wade to be gone within 2 years. McKinney will probably play most of his contract extension, but not much more. Flanagan is at the tail end of his prime. We need to "restock the shelf". That is why I am big on us taking an OT with our 2nd rounder. Pitts and that rookie should be around for a while. There is no telling if Weary, Wand, and Hodgdon will pan out. It would be great to take an interior lineman with one a middle-round selection.

QB The verdict is still out on Carr. I think they give him 2 years to prove he is a quality starter or they start looking for a new signal caller. I am not fond of The Sage One, and I will leave it at that. The fact that they signed the Sage One tells you all you really need to know about what the new staff thinks of Ragone.

RB
I'm assuming Reggie Bush is our selection. This, along with WR, is one of the few areas of strength for the team. DD and Morency give us three starting quality backs on the roster. I don't think Wells is back due to the investment we have in the position. If we get Bush, I wouldn't be surprised if we tried to trade DD or Morency in the next two years. The fullbacks we have are functional and not much more.

WR Assuming we add Moulds, we are looking at AJ, Moulds, Walters, and Mathis. I think this is one area we are set for a while.

TE Putzier gives us a vertical threat at the position for the first time since Billy Miller was cut. Bruener continues to be a stud run blocker, but not much in the receiving department. Joppru is the "X" factor. He has to show something to stay on the roster. If Joppru actually plays and shows some skills, we could re-sign him. Otherwise I think we will still need to find an all-purpose TE.

Dline
Robaire Smith and TJ should be our starting DT's for years to come. Anthony Weaver is a versative player that can play any where on the line. It is hard to tell what position he will play say 2-3 years from now. Babin and/or Peek needs to step up and show some pass-rushing skills from the weakside. Regardless, I expect us to draft one early next year. We really need a DE stud.
LB's
Cowart is a stop-gap at MLB. Since MLB is a key position in the 4-3, I expect us to spend a first day selection on one either this year or next. Greenwood is a solid WLB with a big contract. I see him around for a few years. Wong just doesn't seem like our solution at SLB. Perhaps one of our many 3-4 tweeners can play the position, but I am not holding my breath. So to re-cap, we need to find a starting (stud) MLB and SLB over the next few years.

DB's
Robinson had an off year in 2005. He is the centerpiece for our secondary. I think it has been established that Buchanon and Faggins are nickel backs at best. We need to find someone to play opposite Robinson.
As for safety, we have two functional guys in CC Brown and Glenn Earl. Both are great against the run but liabilities in coverage. I think they should duke it out for the starting SS spot and we should look in a new direction for our starting FS. Perhaps our WIP, Jammal Lord, could be our backup FS for years to come. Keep an eye on that situation. Regardless, IMO we need to add a starting CB and a starting FS.

ST's
Brown and Stanley are coming off their worst seasons as Texans. They both need to rebound to keep their jobs. Mathis is a stud KR. We have several options at PR with Buchanon (might do something for us), Mathis, and perhaps even Bush (although unlikely).

We have a ton of questions, especially with respect to our defense and O-line. The area of strength for us is our skill positions. Lets just hope that Carr and the offense can improve dramatically with the new additions, because we cannot afford to draft any more skill positions early (1st or 2nd) any time soon (again assuming we take Bush and sign Moulds).


Good post..:yahoo: :superman:

TexHorns
04-04-2006, 10:39 PM
Pass protection and run-blocking are two totally different things.

Yeah and IMO this team sucked at both. DD made most of his yards by making guys miss after contact. They were usually all over him. Its not like there were many open holes for him to run through. DD's biggest problem on the field was he does not have the speed to break it all the way once he got into the secondary.

TheOgre
04-05-2006, 06:21 PM
Yeah and IMO this team sucked at both. DD made most of his yards by making guys miss after contact. They were usually all over him. Its not like there were many open holes for him to run through. DD's biggest problem on the field was he does not have the speed to break it all the way once he got into the secondary.

Actually there was a post a while back that showed statistical analysis that the Texans were good at run blocking. Sure it was a subjective formula, but isn't the same true of the QB rating (which I personally think is flawed)?

infantrycak
04-05-2006, 06:55 PM
Actually there was a post a while back that showed statistical analysis that the Texans were good at run blocking. Sure it was a subjective formula, but isn't the same true of the QB rating (which I personally think is flawed)?

Depends on how you define good. Here is the link (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php) to the analysis you were talking about.

It has the run blocking overall in 8th on adjusted line yards per play (this ranking is purely a ypc measure and doesn't consider whether the team averaged 4.8 ypc for 200 total yards or 4.7 ypc for 2000 total yards), but the power rank is 30th, the 10+ rank is 27th and the stuffed rank is 21st. Compare that to San Diego who they have at 9th overall (despite averaging .3 ypc more on the year and gaining 250 yds more) with a power rank of 2nd, 10+ rank of 11th and stuffed rank of 14th. Or Miami who they have at 11th overall (they actually average .1 ypc more than the Texans) with a power rank of 6th, 10+ rank of 14th and stuffed rank of 8th.

Seems like the Texans still have plenty of improvement to get to a top 10 running game IMO.

Mr Shush
04-05-2006, 09:14 PM
Well, the thinking on 10+ is that by the time the back's that far downfield the rest is all on him - nothing to do with the blocking (except maybe from receivers) - that's about the difference between Davis/Wells and Tomlinson or Brown/Williams.

Our numbers may be inflated compared to both those teams, and especially the Chargers, by the fact that their backs' reputations ensure regular 8-in-the-box, while a bad team like the '05 Texans, who are frequently behind in games, are not expected to run the ball so much and so seldom face an extra safety up.

The worrying number there is the atrocious "power" performance - ie, we sucked in 3rd/4th and short and in goal-line situations. Then again, Football Outsiders' research does suggest that poor third down performance relative to performance in other situations tends to correct the next year, so because of the importance of 3rd down performance teams that struggle in this area one year often have major rebound seasons the next.

TheOgre
04-06-2006, 11:31 AM
Depends on how you define good. Here is the link (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php) to the analysis you were talking about.

It has the run blocking overall in 8th on adjusted line yards per play (this ranking is purely a ypc measure and doesn't consider whether the team averaged 4.8 ypc for 200 total yards or 4.7 ypc for 2000 total yards), but the power rank is 30th, the 10+ rank is 27th and the stuffed rank is 21st. Compare that to San Diego who they have at 9th overall (despite averaging .3 ypc more on the year and gaining 250 yds more) with a power rank of 2nd, 10+ rank of 11th and stuffed rank of 14th. Or Miami who they have at 11th overall (they actually average .1 ypc more than the Texans) with a power rank of 6th, 10+ rank of 14th and stuffed rank of 8th.

Seems like the Texans still have plenty of improvement to get to a top 10 running game IMO.

I think a ranking of 8th is good to great. I give DD credit for the deficiency in 10+ yard runs. The line definitely gets more of the blame than DD for the bad stuffed ranking. They aren't a stellar run blocking crew, but they are clearly significantly better at run blocking than pass blocking (1 sack every 8 times the QB went back?). Perhaps I should have said "above average" run blocking instead of good. My point was that these linemen have some run blocking skills. When you compare it to their pass blocking, it is no contest.

infantrycak
04-07-2006, 01:30 PM
I think a ranking of 8th is good to great. I give DD credit for the deficiency in 10+ yard runs. The line definitely gets more of the blame than DD for the bad stuffed ranking. They aren't a stellar run blocking crew, but they are clearly significantly better at run blocking than pass blocking (1 sack every 8 times the QB went back?). Perhaps I should have said "above average" run blocking instead of good. My point was that these linemen have some run blocking skills. When you compare it to their pass blocking, it is no contest.

Absolutely they are better at run blocking than pass blocking. My only point was there is still a ton of room for improvement before the Texans' OL can be considered a dominant run blocking OL. They are no where near the class of KC, Denver, Seattle.

Runner
04-07-2006, 01:48 PM
Does anyone have any insight to who they have where on the o-line during workouts right now?

(By "they" I mean the coaches, not the newspaper).

Bobo
04-07-2006, 01:54 PM
The worrying number there is the atrocious "power" performance - ie, we sucked in 3rd/4th and short and in goal-line situations. Then again, Football Outsiders' research does suggest that poor third down performance relative to performance in other situations tends to correct the next year, so because of the importance of 3rd down performance teams that struggle in this area one year often have major rebound seasons the next.

How does this improvement come about? By magic?

Vinny
04-07-2006, 01:57 PM
Seems like the Texans still have plenty of improvement to get to a top 10 running game IMO.Considering our passing game was awful I'd consider our running game well above average. Nobody thought Carr could beat them last year throwing 20 hitch passes a game. It's tough to pass when you can't run and it is tough to run when you can't pass the ball. If Carr was able to make more teams pay then you would have seen even better running numbers.

TexanFan881
04-07-2006, 02:07 PM
I think the new Oline coaches plus the addition of Mike Flanagan greatly improves our Oline without doing much with it from last year. Sherman will fix our Oline a lot and I think we have a decent chance of doing good this year with the addition of a few early-mid round draft picks.

wags
04-07-2006, 02:13 PM
Considering our passing game was awful I'd consider our running game well above average. Nobody thought Carr could beat them last year throwing 20 hitch passes a game. It's tough to pass when you can't run and it is tough to run when you can't pass the ball. If Carr was able to make more teams pay then you would have seen even better running numbers.

You may have a point but I think people also overcalculate our ground game. If you look at only our RB production then we are actually below average (25th), but when you factor in Carr's scrambles it bumps us up to 15th I believe(in terms of yardage).

Vinny
04-07-2006, 02:15 PM
You may have a point but I think people also overcalculate our ground game. If you look at only our RB production then we are actually below average (25th), but when you factor in Carr's scrambles it bumps us up to 15th I believe(in terms of yardage).That just helps my point. If you can't pass, it is hard to run (and vice versa of course). The only functional part of our offense was our running game.

infantrycak
04-07-2006, 02:24 PM
Considering our passing game was awful I'd consider our running game well above average. Nobody thought Carr could beat them last year throwing 20 hitch passes a game. It's tough to pass when you can't run and it is tough to run when you can't pass the ball. If Carr was able to make more teams pay then you would have seen even better running numbers.

I'm not saying the run blocking was bad and it certainly was better than the pass blocking, but it is my impression from a number of posts around here that people think we have a "good" running game or one that doesn't really need much improvement. Above average?--maybe, slightly. Funny how the topic changes the posts--when the topic is DD several folks say no one game plans against him and teams give him yards/he gets lots of slop yards at the ends of games when the Texans are behind. When the topic is the run blocking the answer is it was good especially considering how bad the passing game was so teams could just play the run. In any event, take out Carr's ypc elevating 308 yds at 5.5 ypc and you get a team rushing average of 3.9 ypc--putting the Texans in the 16th-19th group. Maybe it is above average considering the circumstances but it sure isn't anything anyone was going to call dominant or game-controlling which is all my point was--there is plenty of room for improvement.

Vinny
04-07-2006, 02:33 PM
I'm not saying the run blocking was bad and it certainly was better than the pass blocking, but it is my impression from a number of posts around here that people think we have a "good" running game or one that doesn't really need much improvement. Above average?--maybe, slightly. Funny how the topic changes the posts--when the topic is DD several folks say no one game plans against him and teams give him yards/he gets lots of slop yards at the ends of games when the Texans are behind. When the topic is the run blocking the answer is it was good especially considering how bad the passing game was so teams could just play the run. In any event, take out Carr's ypc elevating 308 yds at 5.5 ypc and you get a team rushing average of 3.9 ypc--putting the Texans in the 16th-19th group. Maybe it is above average considering the circumstances but it sure isn't anything anyone was going to call dominant or game-controlling which is all my point was--there is plenty of room for improvement.I think we can all agree on that one.

Texans Horror
04-07-2006, 03:24 PM
I don't have a coach's inside perspective, but I think it is pretty obvious that Wand and Flanagan are playing Tackle and Center because Wand was recruited by Green Bay and Flanagan played there. McKinney and Pitts are your guards, leaving only the RT spot open. This spot will probably go to one of the vets, but as rich as this draft is in tackles, I could see a tackle brought in with the #33 pick. Not to play this year, necessarily, but to replace a vet.

Runner
04-07-2006, 03:25 PM
Let's do this mental exercise then. Throw out the 2005 season as if it never happened - no Riley, no players losing confidence in the coaching (or whatever happened), no further regression in many facets of the offensive game, no catastrophic change in the offensive game plan, we had a successful offense for half of the year, etc.

If we had gotten this coaching staff and picked up Flanagan under those conditions, what would we be predicting for our:

a) o-line personnel specifically
b) offense in general - running and passing

No fair using 2005 evidence - it is fairly useless evidence in player evaluation given how the problems compounded each other.



Under those conditions I would probably just have substituted Flanagan for McKinney and drafted a tackle to hopefully replace Wade if he didn't improve from his 2004 performance. I would also have expected the coaches to improve the "team game" of the offensive line to make the players make each other better. (i.e. have the LG help the LT against elite defensive ends).

Runner
04-07-2006, 03:40 PM
I don't have a coach's inside perspective, but I think it is pretty obvious that Wand and Flanagan are playing Tackle and Center because Wand was recruited by Green Bay and Flanagan played there. McKinney and Pitts are your guards, leaving only the RT spot open. This spot will probably go to one of the vets, but as rich as this draft is in tackles, I could see a tackle brought in with the #33 pick. Not to play this year, necessarily, but to replace a vet.

Given your scenario, I think that would leave Weigert in the RT position. We'd then need to draft and groom an RT prospect to back him up this season if (when?) he gets injured and replace him next year.

Maybe "targeted" is more accurate than "recruited" if you are talking about the 2003 draft.

Texans Horror
04-07-2006, 03:55 PM
Given your scenario, I think that would leave Weigert in the RT position. We'd then need to draft and groom an RT prospect to back him up this season if (when?) he gets injured and replace him next year.

Maybe "targeted" is more accurate than "recruited" if you are talking about the 2003 draft.

Whichever one (Wade/Weigert). Honestly, I never can remember which one is tackle and which one is guard.

My mind sometimes slips between college ball and pro ball - that's probably why I said recruited. Yeah, that sounds good.

Let me put it this way - I would have preferred for them to not bring back McKinney. I think he is a waste and it's an aggie thing that he's back. Pitts doesn't have the quickness that I like to see. I think he may be gone after this year, too.

Runner
04-07-2006, 03:58 PM
Whichever one (Wade/Weigert). Honestly, I never can remember which one is tackle and which one is guard.

My mind sometimes slips between college ball and pro ball - that's probably why I said recruited. Yeah, that sounds good.

Let me put it this way - I would have preferred for them to not bring back McKinney. I think he is a waste and it's an aggie thing that he's back. Pitts doesn't have the quickness that I like to see. I think he may be gone after this year, too.


Weigert has played tackle and guard; Wade is a tackle only IMO.

Ouch! I doubt Pitts will be gone any time soon.

Texans Horror
04-07-2006, 04:06 PM
I'm probably looking too far ahead, but I think there are some players who are average but not in the top 10, and never will be. IMO, Pitts is one of those guys. He can probably be upgraded.

Now, before I get stoned to death, let me say I think he is a good player and I hope the best for him, but as many people have recognized, the line needs to be upgraded. I think it will be a two-year process to get the line where Kubes wants, and let's face it, I don't think many of the guys here today will be there in two years (except Flanagan).

Runner
04-07-2006, 04:09 PM
I'm probably looking too far ahead, but I think there are some players who are average but not in the top 10, and never will be. IMO, Pitts is one of those guys. He can probably be upgraded.

Now, before I get stoned to death, let me say I think he is a good player and I hope the best for him, but as many people have recognized, the line needs to be upgraded. I think it will be a two-year process to get the line where Kubes wants, and let's face it, I don't think many of the guys here today will be there in two years (except Flanagan).

Well, the best thing I can say about this post is that it keeps the number of posts in this o-line discussion thread ahead of the number in the "What Will Reggie's Number Be" thread. For now.

Coach C.
04-07-2006, 04:13 PM
OSO Wand is not going to start and unless there is an injury likely will not see extensive playing time. The line as I have stated ealier is as of right now:
Pitts, McKinney, Flannigan, Weary, Weigert. That is the line, I understand that some people dont want to believe that Wand was a reach, but he was and unless he shows something this year in the pre-season he will be looking for another team.

swtbound07
04-07-2006, 04:18 PM
OSO Wand is not going to start and unless there is an injury likely will not see extensive playing time. The line as I have stated ealier is as of right now:
Pitts, McKinney, Flannigan, Weary, Weigert. That is the line, I understand that some people dont want to believe that Wand was a reach, but he was and unless he shows something this year in the pre-season he will be looking for another team.

Arent they paying Todd Wade too much to be a backup?

Runner
04-07-2006, 04:18 PM
OSO Wand is not going to start and unless there is an injury likely will not see extensive playing time. The line as I have stated ealier is as of right now:
Pitts, McKinney, Flannigan, Weary, Weigert.

Just to be clear, what is your basis for this? Are you saying that's how the Texans coaches have them lined up, is it what you think, or is that taking McClain's line-up as fact?

Texans Horror
04-07-2006, 04:19 PM
I see your point, Coach C, but I think Wand, who didn't fit well into Pendry's scheme, fits well into Sherman's/Kubiak's. Speed, strength, speed, and besides, Green Bay was already looking into him anyway. Did I mention speed?

Runner
04-07-2006, 04:19 PM
Arent they paying Todd Wade too much to be a backup?

I'd rank salary pretty far down on my evaluation of who to put on the field, especially if that salary can be passed off as the previous regime's mistake.

Coach C.
04-07-2006, 04:23 PM
This is what the coaching staff is thinking. I am not saying this is fact or anything, but let's just say dont be suprised if the lineup mentioned are the starters for week 1 barring injury. As far as Wand goes, he is doughy and we should have sent him to NFLE when we sent Ragone, that was a big mistake. His football IQ is terrible and that is the main reason he does not play. He probably has enough athleticism to at least battle Wade for the backup spot, but other than that he needs to live in the video room and really work his *** off. I have not seen it yet, but hey I dont live with the guy or stay at the stadium.

Texans Horror
04-07-2006, 04:30 PM
This is what the coaching staff is thinking. I am not saying this is fact or anything, but let's just say dont be suprised if the lineup mentioned are the starters for week 1 barring injury. As far as Wand goes, he is doughy and we should have sent him to NFLE when we sent Ragone, that was a big mistake. His football IQ is terrible and that is the main reason he does not play. He probably has enough athleticism to at least battle Wade for the backup spot, but other than that he needs to live in the video room and really work his *** off. I have not seen it yet, but hey I dont live with the guy or stay at the stadium.

Fat and stupid. Got it. But I've heard differently - mostly that he is one of the trimmer linemen and sprints with the linebackers, but who knows? Mayber they're a bunch of slow-asses, too. I wonder how he did on the wonderlic?

swtbound07
04-07-2006, 04:31 PM
I'd rank salary pretty far down on my evaluation of who to put on the field, especially if that salary can be passed off as the previous regime's mistake.


i agree with the principle from a football perspective, but if we are assuming the new regime can turn things around, wouldnt you start with trying to improve the most financially inflexible obstacles?

TheOgre
04-07-2006, 04:32 PM
Our 2nd/3rd round OT we draft will probably get the nod on the right side. If he doesn't start immediately, he will by the beginning of 2007.

Runner
04-07-2006, 04:33 PM
This is what the coaching staff is thinking.

Really. I'm pretty surprised to hear this.

I am not saying this is fact or anything, but let's just say dont be suprised if the lineup mentioned are the starters for week 1 barring injury.

Oh - so it's not a "fact" that that is what they are thinking. I won't be surprised. I hope you aren't surprised when it isn't that line-up as early as the first depth chart going into camp.

I have not seen it

I agree with this part. Although I am again surprised since you speak with such conviction and in such absolutes.

Texans Horror
04-07-2006, 04:34 PM
I agree completely, Ogre. What do you think of Scott's chance of coming here? As much as I like the Horns, I haven't been completely impressed with him.

Runner
04-07-2006, 04:38 PM
i agree with the principle from a football perspective, but if we are assuming the new regime can turn things around, wouldnt you start with trying to improve the most financially inflexible obstacles?

I just don't think he has the tools for our scheme. I think he'd do well in a power blocking system though. However, if the (Texans) coaches think he's the starter, I'll accept their evaluation.

Coach C.
04-07-2006, 04:43 PM
Oso I did not call him fat or stupid, I said that his football IQ is not starter material and he is doughy. Doughy does not mean fat. I also stated that his athleticism is good enough to be a quality back up and spot player. I really would like to know why you think he will be a major player on our team. What is your basis. I am basing my thoughts on him purely on his performance, and workouts that I have seen. I could ask some people with the Texans, but then I would still just be saying the same thing and you would think it was the cousin of a scout or something so that should not matter. Look at his performance and his workouts, look at how he reads plays when he does play and then tell me he is starter material.

Coach C.
04-07-2006, 04:46 PM
Runner I will place a bet with you right now on how the penciled depth chart looks. I say with conviction because, well I am pretty damn sure. I put the part about not being fact, because injury and hardwork could leapfrog someone like if Winston fell to the second it is likely he would start at RT and Weigert would move inside. Or if we picked Mangold who would likely start ahead of Weary. That makes it not fact.

Runner
04-07-2006, 04:47 PM
Wouldn't it be cool if we had reporters in this city that would ask the coaches about players that we have our team and write/talk about them so some of these discussions have a basis in fact?

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-07-2006, 04:49 PM
That just helps my point. If you can't pass, it is hard to run (and vice versa of course). The only functional part of our offense was our running game.

Yes, maybe, but ther eis a difference of running as a discipline and "running for your life"!!!

Runner
04-07-2006, 04:55 PM
Runner I will place a bet with you right now on how the penciled depth chart looks. I say with conviction because, well I am pretty damn sure. I put the part about not being fact, because injury and hardwork could leapfrog someone like if Winston fell to the second it is likely he would start at RT and Weigert would move inside. Or if we picked Mangold who would likely start ahead of Weary. That makes it not fact.

Internet bet? Nah, just come here and hit my rep button if I'm proven to be right. I've already bookmarked it in case I'm wrong and to forward it to you should you forget.

I've read in between the lines in other posts by you that you imply some insight into the Texans. I'm certainly willing to accept you know people in the organization; many posters do. Like any other company though, even employees have differing perceptions.

I got into these same arguments last year when I had the temerity to suggest that Riley wasn't starting LT material. Go figure.

Texans Horror
04-07-2006, 04:57 PM
Oso I did not call him fat or stupid, I said that his football IQ is not starter material and he is doughy. Doughy does not mean fat. I also stated that his athleticism is good enough to be a quality back up and spot player. I really would like to know why you think he will be a major player on our team. What is your basis. I am basing my thoughts on him purely on his performance, and workouts that I have seen. I could ask some people with the Texans, but then I would still just be saying the same thing and you would think it was the cousin of a scout or something so that should not matter. Look at his performance and his workouts, look at how he reads plays when he does play and then tell me he is starter material.

That's fine. I just disagree with you. He's known for his speed, and I don't think you can be doughy and fast. In my un-PC world, I define doughy as fat or overweight. But I digress. Let me throw this out there:

http://www.parisischool.com/programs/combine.asp

"Seth Wand: Ran the fastest 3 cone drill of any Tackle (7.57) at 321 pounds!"

Regardless of acumen or speed, however, I think the main reason you are going to see the dude on the field is that Sherman "targeted" him and his speed works well in Kubes' offense. For similar reasons we have Rosenfels, Flanagan, and will have Reggie Bush.

Runner
04-07-2006, 05:08 PM
"Seth Wand: Ran the fastest 3 cone drill of any Tackle (7.57) at 321 pounds!"


Don't start throwing facts around, or I'll have to mention that the best running stats in the history of the Texans were running outside left - behind the "doughy" Wand - in the 2004 season. Best by a pretty good margin too.

Runner
04-07-2006, 08:19 PM
That makes it not fact.

I forgot to add that what actually makes it not fact is that you don't know what the coaches are thinking. No matter how hard you believe it doesn't make it true.

Hypothetically, what would you think if your proposed line of Pitts - McKinney - Flanagan - Weary - Weigert was wrong by 2-3 people/positions from how they were practicing this week? If someone saw them working a different primary line-up at practice, what would that mean?

bdiddy
04-08-2006, 01:39 PM
Pure Speculation

This is the buzz circulating in Texans circles, but remember this stuff changes frequently and smoke screens are being setup as well.

The Texans are looking to draft one lineman with one of the three picks in 2nd/3rd rounds. If Eric Winston is available he will likely be picked with the 2nd round choice, he is there number one target - but they will not reach or trade up to get him.

If Winston is gone look for the team to trade down in the third round (trading second pick for later 3rd rounder, picking up a 6th rounder next year). W/ the lower 3rd round pick they will target Colledge.

If Winston is drafted look for him to play RT and Weigart to move back to guard, assuming Weary does not have a ridiculous training camp at guard.

If Colledge is drafted the status will be a little more up in the air. The team will try him out at both the RG and RT position. If he plays guard Weigart will stay at RT, otherwise, Weigart will move inside and Colledge will play RT.

Texans Horror
04-08-2006, 03:03 PM
Winston would be a great addition to our line, and I haven't seen any mocks that have him picked in the first round. By putting people in the positions they work best at (i.e., Pitts and McKinney at Guard) and by upgrading at Center, I think we have drastically improved the line. Oh, and getting rid of Pendry. I think that was more of a curse than we will ever fully comprehend.

bigTEXan8
04-08-2006, 03:11 PM
Winston would be a great addition to our line, and I haven't seen any mocks that have him picked in the first round. By putting people in the positions they work best at (i.e., Pitts and McKinney at Guard) and by upgrading at Center, I think we have drastically improved the line. Oh, and getting rid of Pendry. I think that was more of a curse than we will ever fully comprehend.

The removal of Pendry is a great move. Although, putting him in the position of o-line coach was one of the dumbest moves ever. I like Winston, and I think he would be a great addition to the o-line. Flannagan was a solid addition, and should anchor this line down. I'd rather have Pitts play LT because I, personally, am not comfortable with having a rookie at LT. JM:twocents:

Texans Horror
04-08-2006, 03:16 PM
I hear ya, man, and personally, I take it a step further and say that I think Capers is a fine coach. I think Pendry was the bigger problem. This can be a arguement - Capers hired Pendry. But to me, Pendry was a monumental, monolithic part of last year's demise. It will be interesting to see this line come September. The teams seems to be making the right moves.

Runner
04-08-2006, 03:17 PM
...I, personally, am not comfortable with having a rookie at LT. JM:twocents:

Relax, get comfortable - we'll have a 4th year player at LT.

Malloy
04-09-2006, 04:48 AM
I got into these same arguments last year when I had the temerity to suggest that Riley wasn't starting LT material. Go figure.

And you'll BURN for that kinda talk! ;)

TheOgre
04-09-2006, 09:55 AM
I agree completely, Ogre. What do you think of Scott's chance of coming here? As much as I like the Horns, I haven't been completely impressed with him.

I'd rather we take someone with our 2nd. Scott would be a fine addition to the team, but I really want one of the higher rated OT's.

Runner
04-17-2006, 09:47 AM
OSO Wand is not going to start and unless there is an injury likely will not see extensive playing time. The line as I have stated ealier is as of right now:
Pitts, McKinney, Flannigan, Weary, Weigert. That is the line, I understand that some people dont want to believe that Wand was a reach, but he was and unless he shows something this year in the pre-season he will be looking for another team.

...
I hope you aren't surprised when it isn't that line-up as early as the first depth chart going into camp.
...


Runner I will place a bet with you right now on how the penciled depth chart looks. I say with conviction because, well I am pretty damn sure. I put the part about not being fact, because injury and hardwork could leapfrog someone like if Winston fell to the second it is likely he would start at RT and Weigert would move inside. Or if we picked Mangold who would likely start ahead of Weary. That makes it not fact.

Internet bet? Nah, just come here and hit my rep button if I'm proven to be right. I've already bookmarked it in case I'm wrong and to forward it to you should you forget.



How's that bet looking right now?

thunderkyss
04-17-2006, 10:25 AM
i agree with the principle from a football perspective, but if we are assuming the new regime can turn things around, wouldnt you start with trying to improve the most financially inflexible obstacles?

Our new Regime got rid of Walker..... dam the cap hit, they weren't going to let this guy eat up a roster spot for someone who can play. I think salary is a lot lower on the list, than many think.

Wand--Pitts--Flanagan--McKinny--Weigart

Houston Pro Football (http://www.houstonprofootball.com/)
Houston Pro Football

April 16, 2006
Re-Starting Fresh

Out with the old, and in with the new. Such has been the case around Reliant Park this offseason with the changes on the Texans' coaching staff, but when it comes to the offensive line, it's more like back in with the old.

Assistant head coach Mike Sherman is working former starter Seth Wand at left tackle during offseason workouts, giving him special attention after practice to improve his pass blocking and restore his confidence. A third round pick of the team in 2003, Wand started all 16 games his second year in the league, only to be demoted in training camp last year in favor of the since-departed Victor Riley.

Wand's promotion to left tackle has caused a ripple effect to whom is filling the remaining positions on the offsensive line. Last year's starter at left tackle, Chester Pitts, has moved back to left guard, causing Steve McKinney to shift over to right guard.

McKinney's flip to the right side has pushed Zach Wiegert to right tackle, effectively benching the recovering Todd Wade, at least for the time being. Free agent signee Mike Flanagan has been working as the starting center.

The current depth chart is, of course, highly subject to change with the draft and further offseason workouts and coaching sessions. Heavy speculation suggests that the team is likely to consider adding a tackle before the first day of the draft is complete.

"There's a good chance that we may not address (offensive line) in the first round," general manager Charley Casserly said. "We might address it in another round. With the schemes that we're bringing in, I think we're going to be much improved with the players we have."