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Marcus
03-15-2006, 07:58 AM
If John played back what he was saying about a month ago, his face would be redder then a beet.

Saints acquire Brees, shaking up NFL draft (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/mcclain/3724186.html)

Before we analyze how Brees' decision will impact the second pick in the draft, we have to determine what the Texans are going to do with the first pick.

Although the Texans insist they still are involved in the evaluation process, it's looking more and more like it will be running back Reggie Bush, the Heisman Trophy winner from USC.

The more time coach Gary Kubiak, offensive coordinator Troy Calhoun and assistant head coach/offense Mike Sherman spend evaluating David Carr, the more they seem to be convinced that they can win with him. And win big.

No one in the organization is saying anything publicly, of course, because they want to protect their hand. But if they pass up Vince Young for Bush, you might consider a couple of things.

As a player and coach, Kubiak has been to six Super Bowls and has earned three rings. He was part of five Super Bowl teams on which John Elway was the quarterback. If Kubiak believes in Carr and doesn't think the Texans need to replace him with Young, it's hard to argue with him.

Sherman, of course, is coming off six seasons as Green Bay's head coach, and his quarterback was Brett Favre.

Elway and Favre.

We're not comparing Carr to Elway and Favre. We're just pointing out that Kubiak and Sherman have the credentials to make the kind of decision that should affect the direction the organization will take for years to come.

The top pick never has been a decision about Bush vs. Young. It's about Carr vs. Young. If Kubiak, Sherman and Calhoun not to mention owner Bob McNair and general manager Charley Casserly evaluate every piece of information and still come to the conclusion they can win a Super Bowl with Carr, they would be foolish to draft Young.

:stirpot:

bdiddy
03-15-2006, 08:43 AM
Imagine that a headline leading one to believe the article is about the signing of Drew Brees and the McClain goes on to spout off his Vince Young propoganda.

It is not Carr vs. Young. It is Carr+Bush vs. Young.

KSig44
03-15-2006, 09:00 AM
People think that is is a Carr vs. Young decision, but we are the top pick. Wouldn't it be a Carr vs. Lienahrt decision? :stirpot:

I've said it before, if Young wans't from Houston and didn't go to UT, he would not evem be a consideration for the first pick. He has too many holes in his game compared to the NFL game to be number 1.

TexasDiehard
03-15-2006, 09:01 AM
If you are right bdiddy, its carr + Bush vs Young only because the rest of the NFL would not give a top player or draft pick in trade for carr. Accordingly, carr is worthless on the NFL market and its back to Bush vs Young. Noone spends the top draft pick and $50MM on an undersized running back, especially one with no proven track record of running between the tackles. Running backs don't lead teams to championships and Bush is no leader. VY is a proven championship leader.

The truth is that no one but the Texans thinks that carr has big time NFL potential or they would be offering the Texans top draft picks for carr instead of offering huge money to QBs (Miami and New Orleans) with injury problems. carr is an overrated disaster and only the Texans can't see it and this franchise will suffer until they are forced to accept that reality. The problem is that VY will be leading someone else to championships long before then.

chuckm
03-15-2006, 09:05 AM
45 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes ..... tick, tick, tick

TEXANS84
03-15-2006, 09:32 AM
Noone spends the top draft pick and $50MM on an undersized running back, especially one with no proven track record of running between the tackles.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41109000/jpg/_41109286_bush_getty_203.jpg

I'm sure a Heisman Trophy is just a paper-weight.

Coach C.
03-15-2006, 09:45 AM
Texans84 you know I am not a RB or VY supporter, but watching tape on both I am much more impressed than I once was.

VY has a high risk factor, but if he brings it together he is gonna be a really good QB. Look at Randall Cunningham and imagine him with a little more speed and not as strong an arm, but more charasmatic and you will have Vince. It will take him 2 years to really get the nuances of the NFL, but year 3 he should start coming into his own and by year 4 he will either be really solid or just athletic.

RB is a big time back. Can he handle 30 carries with half of them short yardage? No. Can he run up the middle? Yes. He runs up the middle more often than given credit for, he just breaks it outside as soon as he can. Not sure if his cutting style while going through the line will translate with the more athletic LBs he will face in the NFL, but his speed and track record says that is probably will. He will be a solid back, the more I watch him he reminds me of a cross between Clinton Portis and Dave Meggett. I know that is a broad spectrum but check out Meggett in his prime.

Cant blame John for wanting VY, it is a good story, but Carr is our guy and VY will not be coming here. Look for him to land with Arizona or Oakland.

thunderkyss
03-15-2006, 09:53 AM
Ahh yes...... the Heisman........ RBs who win the heisman command $40 million & the #1 pick......... Did Ricky Williams win something similar to the Heisman?? Because it couldn't have been the Heisman the way that turned out. It may have been converted to some kind of bong by now. Ron Dayne may be using his as a paperweight, because it ain't helping his pocket book none either.

Sides, I've always seen it as Carr Vs Young...... that dang Kubiak screwed that up for me. Sage Rosenfell(sp) humph....... but it's all good.

If San Diego had the #1 overall this year, no one would be talking about Reggie Bush going #1. If it were the Eagles, no one would be talking about VY. It's that simple. Last Year, Matt Lienart would've been the #1 pick, no questions asked.

Now all you folks, who think Lienart is rated above Vince, let me put it to you this way.

Who do you take with the #1 overall, Reggie Bush or Lendale White?? I haven't checked. Didn't even look, but I here their stats are comparable. TDs.. Rushing yards..... etc... but who do you think is more exciting to watch??

Who runs more like an NFL style Running Back?? Who's game is most unlike most NFL runningbacks?? Who is more exciting to watch??

Same thing with Vince. Statwise, they are a lot closer than most want to admit.......... passing the ball their senior season. But Vince Brings athleticism into the picture. Vince Brings a leadership quality that is very much desired in starting QBs......... most of them don't have it..... not even in the NFL.

el toro
03-15-2006, 10:07 AM
As much as fans want an immediate impact they should be happy that the team has retained Carr and is apparently going to go with Bush in the draft.

texan279
03-15-2006, 10:08 AM
I cannot believe McClain wrote that...

pittbull
03-15-2006, 11:47 AM
i still don't understand why some of the talk in the area hasn't focused on Matt Leinart. Although he may not be as athletic as Young, he has proven to be a leader, and very good pocket passer, and shown the ability to also lead his team to championships, two! (Although one is up for debate) I still believe this is a heart-felt decision in the great city of Houston, and that if any QB change needs to be made, go with a guy who has shown just as much and more of a NFL style QB. I personally think Carr can get the job done, and love the guy, therefore Bush would be my pick, but if your going tot make the switch, go for the consensus sure shot, rather than the great hope!:twocents:

run-david-run
03-15-2006, 12:03 PM
Ahh yes...... the Heisman........ RBs who win the heisman command $40 million & the #1 pick......... Did Ricky Williams win something similar to the Heisman?? Because it couldn't have been the Heisman the way that turned out. It may have been converted to some kind of bong by now. Ron Dayne may be using his as a paperweight, because it ain't helping his pocket book none either.

Sides, I've always seen it as Carr Vs Young...... that dang Kubiak screwed that up for me. Sage Rosenfell(sp) humph....... but it's all good.

If San Diego had the #1 overall this year, no one would be talking about Reggie Bush going #1. If it were the Eagles, no one would be talking about VY. It's that simple. Last Year, Matt Lienart would've been the #1 pick, no questions asked.

Now all you folks, who think Lienart is rated above Vince, let me put it to you this way.

Who do you take with the #1 overall, Reggie Bush or Lendale White?? I haven't checked. Didn't even look, but I here their stats are comparable. TDs.. Rushing yards..... etc... but who do you think is more exciting to watch??

Who runs more like an NFL style Running Back?? Who's game is most unlike most NFL runningbacks?? Who is more exciting to watch??

Same thing with Vince. Statwise, they are a lot closer than most want to admit.......... passing the ball their senior season. But Vince Brings athleticism into the picture. Vince Brings a leadership quality that is very much desired in starting QBs......... most of them don't have it..... not even in the NFL.
This is a very good point, except for some major omissions. Barry Sanders showed that speedy, elusive runners who break the big runs can make it in the NFL, can even make it in the Hall of Fame. Randall Cuningham is the only running QB to ever get anywhere in the NFL. Sure Mark Brunell, John Elway and Brett Favre used their legs some, but none of the above mentioned rellied on their legs more then VY.

As much as there is a question mark as there is over RB, he is not the first of his kind to enter the NFL, especially with such a high draft pick and such a high risk.

thunderkyss
03-15-2006, 12:04 PM
i still don't understand why some of the talk in the area hasn't focused on Matt Leinart. Although he may not be as athletic as Young, he has proven to be a leader, and very good pocket passer, and shown the ability to also lead his team to championships, two! (Although one is up for debate) I still believe this is a heart-felt decision in the great city of Houston, and that if any QB change needs to be made, go with a guy who has shown just as much and more of a NFL style QB. I personally think Carr can get the job done, and love the guy, therefore Bush would be my pick, but if your going tot make the switch, go for the consensus sure shot, rather than the great hope!:twocents:

Main Reason N.O. isn't even interested in Vince, is because they just got rid of a stupid athletic QB that runs like a Deer.

In Houston, just the opposite.

Plus, if you're going to take a QB, you can't pass on the Talent hometown kid...... I mean you can, but I wouldn't. If Reggie McNeal were from Houston, and Vince were from McAllen Texas....... everything else the same, Lienart would get more play. But Vince would still hold the edge, because he doesn't look anything like David Carr.

F-minus67
03-15-2006, 12:37 PM
Is Young really the best QB in the draft? If you just read this board, you would think so. But look at the national media, Young is starting to drop behind Cutler. While I think that Young way better than Cutler. He just seems to be missing something that I can't put my finger on right now. He will mostly likely be a good pro, but I don't think he will live up to his hype.

whiskeyrbl
03-15-2006, 12:45 PM
If you are right bdiddy, its carr + Bush vs Young only because the rest of the NFL would not give a top player or draft pick in trade for carr. Accordingly, carr is worthless on the NFL market and its back to Bush vs Young. Noone spends the top draft pick and $50MM on an undersized running back, especially one with no proven track record of running between the tackles. Running backs don't lead teams to championships and Bush is no leader. VY is a proven championship leader.

The truth is that no one but the Texans thinks that carr has big time NFL potential or they would be offering the Texans top draft picks for carr instead of offering huge money to QBs (Miami and New Orleans) with injury problems. carr is an overrated disaster and only the Texans can't see it and this franchise will suffer until they are forced to accept that reality. The problem is that VY will be leading someone else to championships long before then.

Boy where do you people come up with undersized RB.If he is undersized i would take my chances on him.Your comment provided me the will to do some searching,so i went to google and looked up the top 5 RB in NFL history. Well,well,well guess what i found out:

PLayer RD DRAFTED PICK HEIGHT WEIGHT
Emmit Smith 1 17 5'9 209
Walter Payton 1 4 5'10 200
Barry Sanders 1 3 5'8 200
Eric Dickerson 1 2 6'3 220
Tony Dorsett 1 2 5'11 192

Reggie Bush PROJECTED 1 1 FACT 6'0 200
Not bad company to have as being not big enough or worthy of the 1st pick overall.

TEXANS84
03-15-2006, 12:49 PM
Also, to add to whiskey's post, that many of the press has indicated that the 6'0 listing for Bush is very generous. Many people have indicated he's more 5-11/10' size.

thunderkyss
03-15-2006, 12:50 PM
PLayer RD DRAFTED PICK HEIGHT WEIGHT
Emmit Smith 1 17 5'9 209
Walter Payton 1 4 5'10 200
Barry Sanders 1 3 5'8 200
Eric Dickerson 1 2 6'3 220
Tony Dorsett 1 2 5'11 192

Reggie Bush PROJECTED 1 1 FACT 6'0 200
Not bad company to have as being not big enough or worthy of the 1st pick overall.

5'9" 210 lbs, is equal to 6'3" 220lbs. The only one really close to Reggie's size on that list is Tony Dorsett, who looked much bigger back then...... of course, I was much smaller.

bigTEXan8
03-15-2006, 12:52 PM
Bloody hell...I thought this was a dead issue. I thought everyone on the board was in concurence that McLain was a moron?

VY is going to Tenn, not Houston. Lienart is the best QB in this years draft. If the Texans took Lienart over Carr, I would be less fighting for Carr, because it would be more understanding. Lienart is a great QB, certainly better than Carr ever was in college.

chuckm
03-15-2006, 12:53 PM
from the combine

5'10"7
201

has anyone weighed or measured his heart lately?

O.G.
03-15-2006, 01:02 PM
Boy where do you people come up with undersized RB.If he is undersized i would take my chances on him.Your comment provided me the will to do some searching,so i went to google and looked up the top 5 RB in NFL history. Well,well,well guess what i found out:

PLayer RD DRAFTED PICK HEIGHT WEIGHT
Emmit Smith 1 17 5'9 209
Walter Payton 1 4 5'10 200
Barry Sanders 1 3 5'8 200
Eric Dickerson 1 2 6'3 220
Tony Dorsett 1 2 5'11 192

Reggie Bush PROJECTED 1 1 FACT 6'0 200
Not bad company to have as being not big enough or worthy of the 1st pick overall.

Correction.......Reggie Bush is 6'-0", 211lbs

aj.
03-15-2006, 01:03 PM
Bloody hell...I thought this was a dead issue. I thought everyone on the board was in concurence that McLain was a moron?

.

I happen to know that McClain isn't a moron, but I'm not so sure about everyone on the board.

chuckm
03-15-2006, 01:06 PM
I happen to know that McClain isn't a moron, but I'm not so sure about everyone on the board.



except you and me, right aj? :rolleyes:

WWJD
03-15-2006, 01:10 PM
This is a very good point, except for some major omissions. Barry Sanders showed that speedy, elusive runners who break the big runs can make it in the NFL, can even make it in the Hall of Fame. Randall Cuningham is the only running QB to ever get anywhere in the NFL. Sure Mark Brunell, John Elway and Brett Favre used their legs some, but none of the above mentioned rellied on their legs more then VY.

As much as there is a question mark as there is over RB, he is not the first of his kind to enter the NFL, especially with such a high draft pick and such a high risk.


Isn't Mike Vick considered a running QB?

And he's doing ok so far...the Falcons have been in the playoffs.

Dr. Toro
03-15-2006, 01:20 PM
This is a very good point, except for some major omissions. Randall Cuningham is the only running QB to ever get anywhere in the NFL. Sure Mark Brunell, John Elway and Brett Favre used their legs some, but none of the above mentioned rellied on their legs more then VY.

Steve Young, Mcnabb, Culpepper, McNair. What's the difference? VY is a better athlete, let's not hold that against him. Using the 'theres never been anyone like him' argument to highlight risk isn't very solid. There have been guys like him, just not as fast/big/shifty or some combination thereof. He only ran 11.5 times per game this year... he can do 6-8 per game in the NFL.


BTW, there are alot of guys in theNFL more like vy than rb. Not that it matters, but RB is like a Sayers/Ismail hybrid. There's just as much risk if you try to shoehorn him iinto a typical nfl role.

infantrycak
03-15-2006, 01:47 PM
The truth is that no one but the Texans thinks that carr has big time NFL potential or they would be offering the Texans top draft picks for carr instead of offering huge money to QBs (Miami and New Orleans) with injury problems.

Nobody is offering Indy picks for Manning--I guess he is worthless too. Carr was never put up for sale--that's why no one was making an offer. Talk about made up arguments.

Mailman04
03-15-2006, 01:54 PM
Houston just can't be stupid enough to draft Vince Young. if they passed on Reggie Bush to take Young it would be the stupidest thing they could do. If Carr wasn't the answer, they should have gone after Culpepper or Brees, but Young isn't the answer.

CarrIsFine
03-15-2006, 01:56 PM
Bloody hell...I thought this was a dead issue. I thought everyone on the board was in concurence that McLain was a moron?

VY is going to Tenn, not Houston. Lienart is the best QB in this years draft. If the Texans took Lienart over Carr, I would be less fighting for Carr, because it would be more understanding. Lienart is a great QB, certainly better than Carr ever was in college.
Certainly better than Carr ever was in college? I've seen both play in college, and that is not my opinion. Carr was a stud in college and as I have pointed out to the blind, he had some huge games against good college defenses, not just WAC teams.

But as we all should know, college is college and the NFL is the NFL. I think Leinart's mobility is his biggest liability. His 40 time is projected at 4.85 - 4.90. He better have a decent line in the NFL.

run-david-run
03-15-2006, 01:57 PM
Bloody hell...I thought this was a dead issue. I thought everyone on the board was in concurence that McLain was a moron?

VY is going to Tenn, not Houston. Lienart is the best QB in this years draft. If the Texans took Lienart over Carr, I would be less fighting for Carr, because it would be more understanding. Lienart is a great QB, certainly better than Carr ever was in college.
What???? Leinart was on one of the best teams of all time. DC was on an avergae Fresno State team and he threw for 48 TD's and 4800 yards his senior year. From an individual standpoint, its not even close.

Meloy
03-15-2006, 02:07 PM
If you are right bdiddy, its carr + Bush vs Young only because the rest of the NFL would not give a top player or draft pick in trade for carr. Accordingly, carr is worthless on the NFL market and its back to Bush vs Young. Noone spends the top draft pick and $50MM on an undersized running back, especially one with no proven track record of running between the tackles. Running backs don't lead teams to championships and Bush is no leader. VY is a proven championship leader.

The truth is that no one but the Texans thinks that carr has big time NFL potential or they would be offering the Texans top draft picks for carr instead of offering huge money to QBs (Miami and New Orleans) with injury problems. carr is an overrated disaster and only the Texans can't see it and this franchise will suffer until they are forced to accept that reality. The problem is that VY will be leading someone else to championships long before then. I must have missed it. When exactly did the Texans announce they were shopping Carr? And if they did not, how do you know Carr is worthless? My recollection was McNair has always said he was going to pay Carr the full bonus (and he did) and he thought DC could take the Texans to Super Bowl. I can't imagine Kubiac turning down Leinhert or Young if he thought DC was a "worthless" QB regardless of what McNair said. I think it has also been mentioned that Ladamlian Thomlison (sp) and Shaun Alexander are close to the weight of 210lbs that Bush is expected to play @ in NFL. Finally, do you really care if your back gets 100yds per game on 25 carries between the tackles or 100 yds outside tackles in 15-20 carries plus perhaps another 80 to 100 in reverses and receptions? What does seem to be true is that outside of Texas, Bush is consider to be the best prospect at r.b. coming out of college ever. Bush won the Heisman for the best player last year. Young led a team to a win in the national championship and may be drafted anywhere from 2nd to 10th. Bush will be # 1. Just so everyone knows, I wanted a trade down.

el toro
03-15-2006, 02:26 PM
It's not like taking Young would mean that you don't have to improve the Oline. You'd also have to wait while he developed and that's not going to happen overnight. Carr + Bush gives you the chance for a more immediate impact and also a more diversified offense. Otherwise you are hoping that the shotgun, pulldown and rush would work against NFL defenses that have a tad bit more speed than anything Young has seen in college. Kubiak knows a thing or two about building and running a proficient NFL offense. I'd have a little more faith in him and a little less in the Rose Bowl.

Meloy
03-15-2006, 03:02 PM
except you and me, right aj? :rolleyes:
I am too a moron! Ya'll must be Baptists.:homer:

Texans_Chick
03-15-2006, 03:23 PM
i still don't understand why some of the talk in the area hasn't focused on Matt Leinart. Although he may not be as athletic as Young, he has proven to be a leader, and very good pocket passer, and shown the ability to also lead his team to championships, two! (Although one is up for debate) I still believe this is a heart-felt decision in the great city of Houston, and that if any QB change needs to be made, go with a guy who has shown just as much and more of a NFL style QB. I personally think Carr can get the job done, and love the guy, therefore Bush would be my pick, but if your going tot make the switch, go for the consensus sure shot, rather than the great hope!:twocents:

My post on this topic from Statorific Sunday-click here (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=290137&postcount=56) of why Leinart isn't much in the discussion.

Wouldn't it be absolutely hilarious if we drafted Leinart, maybe doing some sort of trade shenannigans on draft day?? People would absolutely freak at the draft party.

thegr8fan
03-15-2006, 03:38 PM
I happen to know that McClain isn't a moron, but I'm not so sure about everyone on the board. As much as it pains me to say this, and hopefully hidden in a thread so McLame won't read it, but I gotta agree with aj on this topic. Having had a conversation with him in person (he likes my nickname of McLame so much he looked me up at a tailgate party) he actually has some pretty good thoughts and knowledge of the NFL. He ain't got squat for contacts or 'insider info' as this article shows. But he is brave enough to pick a side of the fence and stand on it. Until at least the 'winds of change' blow in and he climbs to the other side for protection, that is. :stirpot:

Course I still like to read his column where he is brave enough to put out an opinion that ends up totally wrong and 'cuts off the limb he is standing on' so to speak. :yahoo:

Bronco Texan
03-15-2006, 04:34 PM
Did I miss something? When was VY the highest rated player in the draft? Hell when was he even the highest rated QB?

I use to be a trade down guy but now it seems like as FA goes on trading down to a decent pick is getting harder and harder. We can't trade for the Jets now because they probably wont have JA anymore plus they could get a better deal with the Saints. So I guess we will just have to take Bush. It is okay atleast we will have a top 5 offense.

HJam72
03-15-2006, 04:51 PM
McClain: "If Kubiak believes in Carr and doesn't think the Texans need to replace him with Young, it's hard to argue with him."

lol:

That's funny, because McClain's been doing just that for months now. I just can't believe the bologne that sports writers come up with sometimes.

TEXANFAN23435
03-15-2006, 05:58 PM
I'm going to change directions. I've been behind trading the #1 pick but this new wave of FA has changed the landscape. I'm going to agree with the idea of taking RB and after reading some of the post only hope he can become a similar back like LT, ES, BS and T. Dorsett who without a doubt I thought had the coolest slice moves in the face of would be tacklers with no noticed deceleration.

The only thing that keeps me hoping for the trade down is if our phones get hot and Tenn feels someone else wants ML more than they do.

aj.
03-15-2006, 06:07 PM
McClain: "If Kubiak believes in Carr and doesn't think the Texans need to replace him with Young, it's hard to argue with him."

lol:

That's funny, because McClain's been doing just that for months now. I just can't believe the bologne that sports writers come up with sometimes.

That's his consent to what he now believes is inevitable. The guy changed his mind. So what?

Hervoyel
03-15-2006, 06:53 PM
If John played back what he was saying about a month ago, his face would be redder then a beet.

Saints acquire Brees, shaking up NFL draft (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/mcclain/3724186.html)



:stirpot:


If he thought it would sell significantly more papers tomorrow McClain would contradict himself again in a heartbeat and there would be narry a blush in sight. He writes for a newspaper and newspapers are about circulation not news or facts or any of that other junk. John's selling papers and telling people what they want to hear or rather in this case he's easing himself into position to be the biggest Reggie Bush fan in the world if that should become necessary.

HJam72
03-15-2006, 07:03 PM
They should be called "Circulation Papers", not "Newspapers". They might as well just be full of polls. Just poll everyone in Houston once a week on what they think should be done, whether they even know what football is or not. :)

It's OK for McClain to change his mind, but his mind is nothing more than a mirror of what the hype is in Houston at the time, or what he thinks it will soon be. At this point, I wonder if he even thinks about what's actually best for the team or not. It's just all about saying what he thinks people want to hear.

Just to be clear though, I do agree with Kubiak, or at least I did when I didn't know they'd pay Carr so much. Now, I just don't know, but the decision has been made.

el toro
03-15-2006, 07:11 PM
What's the quickest way to winning? Drafting a young QB with questionable arm mechanics or sticking with your current QB and drafting a stud RB with the multi-purpose game. I'd also add that you just made a coaching change and now have a top flight offensive mind as your head coach who just turned around the career of a QB who had the tools, but had never put them together.

For all of you who want to win now, well, the Texans seem to be going in that direction.

Koolbrz
03-15-2006, 07:39 PM
If you are right bdiddy, its carr + Bush vs Young only because the rest of the NFL would not give a top player or draft pick in trade for carr. Accordingly, carr is worthless on the NFL market and its back to Bush vs Young. Noone spends the top draft pick and $50MM on an undersized running back, especially one with no proven track record of running between the tackles. Running backs don't lead teams to championships and Bush is no leader. VY is a proven championship leader.

The truth is that no one but the Texans thinks that carr has big time NFL potential or they would be offering the Texans top draft picks for carr instead of offering huge money to QBs (Miami and New Orleans) with injury problems. carr is an overrated disaster and only the Texans can't see it and this franchise will suffer until they are forced to accept that reality. The problem is that VY will be leading someone else to championships long before then.


Let me see, should i believe in what you have to say or should i believe in the decision to keep Carr and possibly draft Bush by a couple of coaches that only have what 6-8 Super Bowls between them. I think i will lean towards the coaching staff. Oh by the way, Bush is a leader on and off the field. He is just as much a leader as VY. He can run between the tackles and take them corners and recieve the ball coming out of the backfield, and lineup in the slot. Hhhmmmm...sounds like a M. Faulk type of back to me. I would rather they draft a back with the potential to be a Faulk type back than to draft a QB that is at best a big project. If VY is so great, why did NO not consider picking him up with the second pick. Why did Miami not try and position themselves in a spot where they might have a shot at him in the draft. Beats me!! Carr, Bush, AJ, DD, Mathis, Putzier maybe...we will do better than what you think. GO TEXANS!!!!:gotexans1

aj.
03-15-2006, 08:35 PM
It's OK for McClain to change his mind, but his mind is nothing more than a mirror of what the hype is in Houston at the time, or what he thinks it will soon be. At this point, I wonder if he even thinks about what's actually best for the team or not. It's just all about saying what he thinks people want to hear.


I think it's natural for human beings and even sportswriters to react to sqeaky wheels and whatever is buzzing.

As far as what's best for the team, I'm more concerned about what Casserly, Kubiak, Calhoun and Smith think than the Chronicle guys.

I want the Chronicle guys to let us know what our GM and coaches think about the direction of the team ... and every once in a while I guess we'll let them offer us their opinions which we should take with a grain of salt because after all, they are simply sportswriters and fans like the rest of us, and not general managers.

I expect a morsel of insight now and then from the beat writers and op-ed guys because of their access but I sure don't look to them to shape my opinion on anything, and it almost seems like some people want their beatwriters to establish their platforms for them.

Signed,

Jack Webb

southtexan
03-15-2006, 09:14 PM
Personally I enjoy reading Mclain's columns, he's closer to the team than most of the people in this forum, he is entitled to change his mind and he is entitled to make mistakes. I also enjoy reading this forum, the one thing that I dislike is all of the negative comments. Being realistic and being negative are two different things.

Nighthawk
03-15-2006, 09:48 PM
Imagine that a headline leading one to believe the article is about the signing of Drew Brees and the McClain goes on to spout off his Vince Young propoganda.

What, you can't read well? It's a pro-Bush, Bush-all-the-way article in which McJerk comes to terms with the Texans not drafting Young.

And when it comes right down to it, with Vince falling in the draft, it's really a Carr/Bush vs Young/D.Davis/Unknown Player-Or-Late-1st/Top-2nd plus other picks, because now you can trade down to 7, maybe even 10, and still get Young and a player or 2 other 1st day picks, and maybe a 1st day in 2007.

I never understand why people won't look at the whole picture.

Carr Bombed
03-16-2006, 01:04 AM
What, you can't read well? It's a pro-Bush, Bush-all-the-way article in which McJerk comes to terms with the Texans not drafting Young.

And when it comes right down to it, with Vince falling in the draft, it's really a Carr/Bush vs Young/D.Davis/Unknown Player-Or-Late-1st/Top-2nd plus other picks, because now you can trade down to 7, maybe even 10, and still get Young and a player or 2 other 1st day picks, and maybe a 1st day in 2007.

I never understand why people won't look at the whole picture.


Ah, No its not, because nobody in those slots WANTS TO TRADE UP TO THE #1 SPOT when New Orleans is sitting there looking to trade down at #2. Holding the #1 pick is only HALF the story, you also have to have a trade partner.

Huge1
03-16-2006, 01:29 AM
Correction.......Reggie Bush is 6'-0", 211lbs

Wow! Not only did Reggie gain 10 lbs. since the combine but he also grew over 1" in height! :confused:

The New England Journal of Medicine states that it is impossible for synthetic growth hormone to allow an adult, post-pubescent male to grow linearly after the ages of 19-20. So GH is out of the question. Makes you wonder what futuristic sports enhancer Mr. Bush has taken in the last two weeks. :rolleyes:

Double Barrel
03-16-2006, 02:22 AM
We're not comparing Carr to Elway and Favre. We're just pointing out that Kubiak and Sherman have the credentials to make the kind of decision that should affect the direction the organization will take for years to come.

This part pretty much sums it up. Trust in the coaching staff. We'll find out in a few months if they are right or not.

Nighthawk
03-16-2006, 06:14 AM
What???? Leinart was on one of the best teams of all time. DC was on an avergae Fresno State team and he threw for 48 TD's and 4800 yards his senior year. From an individual standpoint, its not even close.

Isn't Fresno State like a junior college or something? Since when did it become big time college football?

Nighthawk
03-16-2006, 06:29 AM
Ah, No its not, because nobody in those slots WANTS TO TRADE UP TO THE #1 SPOT when New Orleans is sitting there looking to trade down at #2. Holding the #1 pick is only HALF the story, you also have to have a trade partner.

As I've said elsewhere, the ONLY reason N.O. is getting play now is that the Texans have played the #1 pick hand very poorly.

We've got to back off Bush and be ready to take Leinart with the #1 pick. We also should be actively courting offers for the #1 pick (I do not know that we aren't doing this) and we should be doing it VERY publicly--the #1 Pick is For Sale. Make Offer. People need to know we want out. Charley and the other Deadheads think they're cagey, I guess.

Any trade with N.O. with the idea that the trading up team will get a specific player can be trumped by a trade with Houston for the #1.

But if we don't take Leinart we lose all leverage. We should announce now that we are taking Leinart and begin contract talks. Bush will fall to 2,3,4,5. If you want the top QB in the draft you have to talk to us.

If we get "stuck" with Leinart (not likely one way or another), we keep him behind Carr for a couple years and then keep the best one and trade the other for good value.

I admit this is potentially weak point. If Carr continues Dumpster diving he's not going to bring good value two years from now, not in a league where Culpepper went for a 2nd. Imagine what Carr's real worth is today! A mid-third? Less? No wonder they don't want to trade him.

Anyway, unless the Texans start playing hardball we're going to have our a55es handed to us in the draft.

They have to say it and they have to mean it. Leinart.

threetoedpete
03-16-2006, 06:54 AM
This part pretty much sums it up. Trust in the coaching staff. We'll find out in a few months if they are right or not.

No it'll be september the first time RB has to step up and take on a blitzing DE or lineback. Long way till April, but I believe RB will be the guy. I don't like it. But unless Norm Chow & Reese wet their britches, I don't see anyone giving up their 2nd & 3rd or equivilent to move into the one spot. This draft is just too deep with great prospects. Which begs the question if RB is such a lock to be trhe next Gale Sayers, Tony D. ( pick your Icon) why aren't people forking over two ones and breaking their necks to get at him ? They are passing the Brick up because they believe it's been a scheme problem and not a personel problem...we'll see.The games will be fun. They'll sell a lot of jerseys but in the end will RB help us is pass Dungie and his two deep zone ? We'll see. Lot of folks have already annointed him a HOFer. Hope you're correct.

I do now know what a frachise stud left gaurd is worth. Hutchinson's a good 'un. It'll be interesting to see if Paul Allen will swallow that posion pill. We got anyone on our sqaud making fifty mill. ?

threetoedpete
03-16-2006, 07:10 AM
Isn't Fresno State like a junior college or something? Since when did it become big time college football?

Cute. The fact IS everyone and I mean everyone in the pack-Ten has been ducking Fresno St. for the last decade. Yeah USC stomped'em this year. But even undermaned the didn't quit. We'll see who has the most guys drafted in April. You play Pat Hill's club, you better pack a lunch
and get the ice tubs ready. They bring it. I'm just wondering which part of your anatomy you'll show next. You stuck your south end out prety good on this one.

threetoedpete
03-16-2006, 07:50 AM
As I've said elsewhere, the ONLY reason N.O. is getting play now is that the Texans have played the #1 pick hand very poorly.

We've got to back off Bush and be ready to take Leinart with the #1 pick. We also should be actively courting offers for the #1 pick (I do not know that we aren't doing this) and we should be doing it VERY publicly--the #1 Pick is For Sale. Make Offer. People need to know we want out. Charley and the other Deadheads think they're cagey, I guess.

Any trade with N.O. with the idea that the trading up team will get a specific player can be trumped by a trade with Houston for the #1.

But if we don't take Leinart we lose all leverage. We should announce now that we are taking Leinart and begin contract talks. Bush will fall to 2,3,4,5. If you want the top QB in the draft you have to talk to us.

If we get "stuck" with Leinart (not likely one way or another), we keep him behind Carr for a couple years and then keep the best one and trade the other for good value.

I admit this is potentially weak point. If Carr continues Dumpster diving he's not going to bring good value two years from now, not in a league where Culpepper went for a 2nd. Imagine what Carr's real worth is today! A mid-third? Less? No wonder they don't want to trade him.

Anyway, unless the Texans start playing hardball we're going to have our a55es handed to us in the draft.

They have to say it and they have to mean it. Leinart.


Well you were on a roll what the hey......

If they don't fix this thing, Carr won't be worth two six packs and a ham sandwich. The problem is not leinart.....the problem is VY and RB. The league has NOW seen the game tapes and they are not worth what you feel they are worth. N.O. don't care. There are seven great prospects who are not QB's and if they don't trade back too far, they gonna get one. And they don't care who it is. They got their QB. So you suggest we pay two #1 QBs for how many years Einstien ? And on top of that balderdash you're expecting NFL people to buy it ? Nope it comes down to what Reese and Chow want to do. Risk the Jets moving up with us or standing pat and taking one of the
best position prospects who is not a QB. Either way Tennesse & N.O. are smiling. Cutler has moved ahead of VY in most books I've seen. That has muddy the waters. RB goes one. leinart 2, Best position prospect or cutler 3. Jets hold 4 with Mario and Brick and Hawk and Huff and Davis starin at them. Not bad pickins. No one wants to trade their 2's and threes this year. Too many great prospects between 32 and 64. It's nothing CC "did". Just they way it worked out.

Marcus
03-16-2006, 08:19 AM
We've got to back off Bush and be ready to take Leinart with the #1 pick. We also should be actively courting offers for the #1 pick (I do not know that we aren't doing this) and we should be doing it VERY publicly--the #1 Pick is For Sale. Make Offer. People need to know we want out. Charley and the other Deadheads think they're cagey, I guess.
Well, I guess when I decide to sell my beachfront property on the dark side of the moon, you'll be numero uno on my sucker list.

Casserly is "playing his hand" very well, IMO. Neither he, or anyone else in the Texans organization, McNair included, has come out and publicly announced that they are taking Bush. They ARE though, indeed talking him up. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Marcus
03-16-2006, 08:38 AM
That's his consent to what he now believes is inevitable. The guy changed his mind. So what?

It's not so much that he "changed his mind". It's just that he was so emphatic about it. "They WILL take Vince Young, count on it, bet on it." "The fans will burn down Reliant Stadium if they don't take him" "All Kubiak has to do, is interview Vince Young, and he will be convinced that Young is the man." All that huey. As if he thinks we all get amnesia or something.

As for you "not thinking McClain is a moron", you didn't always feel that way. What changed your mind? ;)

bdiddy
03-16-2006, 08:41 AM
What, you can't read well? It's a pro-Bush, Bush-all-the-way article in which McJerk comes to terms with the Texans not drafting Young.

And when it comes right down to it, with Vince falling in the draft, it's really a Carr/Bush vs Young/D.Davis/Unknown Player-Or-Late-1st/Top-2nd plus other picks, because now you can trade down to 7, maybe even 10, and still get Young and a player or 2 other 1st day picks, and maybe a 1st day in 2007.

I never understand why people won't look at the whole picture.

I have no problems reading, you can ask the Texas Medical Examiners Board!

If you look to my point, even when McClain starts on another topic, i.e., the Drew Brees signing, he manages to find a way back to how great Vince Young is and the Texans are going to may a huge mistake by not drafting him. I do not think it is impossible to right an article regarding the Texans without mentioning Vince Young, especially during free agency period.

This is coming from the guy who would rather have an "exciting" year than win the Super Bowl. That is enough said.

jerek
03-16-2006, 11:02 AM
If you are right bdiddy, its carr + Bush vs Young only because the rest of the NFL would not give a top player or draft pick in trade for carr. Accordingly, carr is worthless on the NFL market and its back to Bush vs Young. Noone spends the top draft pick and $50MM on an undersized running back, especially one with no proven track record of running between the tackles. Running backs don't lead teams to championships and Bush is no leader. VY is a proven championship leader.

The truth is that no one but the Texans thinks that carr has big time NFL potential or they would be offering the Texans top draft picks for carr instead of offering huge money to QBs (Miami and New Orleans) with injury problems. carr is an overrated disaster and only the Texans can't see it and this franchise will suffer until they are forced to accept that reality. The problem is that VY will be leading someone else to championships long before then.

:blah:

Culpepper demanded a trade, he got it. Brees was an unrestricted free agent.

We resigned Carr to a heavy guaranteed-money contract. At no point in time were we were shopping him around. Meanwhile, a couple of "proven winners" like Kubiak and Sherman (what the hell do they know, any way?) have chosen Carr to be our QB.

Do you see the difference here?

"No one" spends 50M on an "undersized RB" with "no proven track record of running between the tackles."

Right.

Because we should spend 55M+ on an "unproven" QB with questionable throwing mechanics who played a kindergarten offense at UT and who has done nothing but work his damndest to drop his draft stock ever since? These same analysts whom you so proudly agreed with after the Rose Bowl are now dropping Vince, and now they are all just *****s?

Your post isn't about winning, or "proven" anything, as you blatantly ignore the only things proven about any of the people you target. It is about your favorite hero Vince Young.

Enjoy watching him wherever he lands. I know I will.

thunderkyss
03-16-2006, 11:03 AM
Scratch New York from the list(for the sake of Argument).... Who else may be interested in trading up for Bush??

regardless how far down they are in the first round, who are they, what do they have to offer, and why does it have to be Reggie Bush for them, and not D'Angelo, Lendale, Adai, or any of the other RBs in the draft.

Huge1
03-16-2006, 07:24 PM
Cute. The fact IS everyone and I mean everyone in the pack-Ten has been ducking Fresno St. for the last decade. Yeah USC stomped'em this year. But even undermaned the didn't quit. We'll see who has the most guys drafted in April. You play Pat Hill's club, you better pack a lunch
and get the ice tubs ready. They bring it. I'm just wondering which part of your anatomy you'll show next. You stuck your south end out prety good on this one.

Totally agree with you on this one, except......USC got their butts kicked up and down the field by Fresno State's offense this year. I unfortunately live in Pac-10 country (Arizona) and watched every USC game this past season. If it wasn't for Bush's heisman clinching performance in this game USC would not have met UT in the Rose Bowl. Final score USC 50 Fresno State 42. Fresno State led for most of the game until USC pulled a rabbit out of their *** late for the win.

MorKnolle
03-16-2006, 08:23 PM
I am shocked to see John McClain sticking up for David Carr like this, it is a refreshing alternative to his usual articles.

aj.
03-16-2006, 08:46 PM
As for you "not thinking McClain is a moron", you didn't always feel that way. What changed your mind? ;)

On the contrary, I haven't changed my mind about McClain's work. I think I've been fairly consistent in that regard.

I thought his best work was back in the 80's when he was the beat writer for the Oilers. Part of that issue is that it's easier now for people to keep up with NFL news since it's right here at our fingertips and we don't need to rely on the newspaper to bring us the news. Another issue is that the Chronic is the only paper in town so those guys don't have to hustle nearly as hard as a two paper town. I think he's too consumed in his movie interests and his titans love was hard to handle - but he's toned that down quite a bit since he started Texans beat writing vs. his NFL gig.. I know he's heard an earful from me and about a thousand others on that subject.

So I'm not quite sure where you're coming from on this since that's the same stuff I've always criticized McClain for ... on the boards and to his face.

I've also had the opportunity to meet John several times over the past three or four years and he's a lot of fun to hang out with... Plus, he's a Baylor grad so he must have at least average intelligence.

thegr8fan
03-16-2006, 08:54 PM
I've also had the opportunity to meet John several times over the past three or four years and he's a lot of fun to hang out with..aj hey, lets not get too radical now. I said he was fairly intelligent, for a newspaper boy. I don't recall anything about 'fun to hang out with'. :stirpot:

aj.
03-16-2006, 09:00 PM
Okay, let me clarify: let's try "fun to listen to" since I enjoy listening to people (like you) who are full of ****

thegr8fan
03-16-2006, 09:04 PM
Okay, let me clarify: let's try "fun to listen to" since I enjoy listening to people (like you) who are full of ****hmmm, how come when I type 'news' it doesn't put astericks like it did yours. :yahoo:

Carr Bombed
03-16-2006, 10:53 PM
As I've said elsewhere, the ONLY reason N.O. is getting play now is that the Texans have played the #1 pick hand very poorly.

We've got to back off Bush and be ready to take Leinart with the #1 pick. We also should be actively courting offers for the #1 pick (I do not know that we aren't doing this) and we should be doing it VERY publicly--the #1 Pick is For Sale. Make Offer. People need to know we want out. Charley and the other Deadheads think they're cagey, I guess.

Any trade with N.O. with the idea that the trading up team will get a specific player can be trumped by a trade with Houston for the #1.

But if we don't take Leinart we lose all leverage. We should announce now that we are taking Leinart and begin contract talks. Bush will fall to 2,3,4,5. If you want the top QB in the draft you have to talk to us.

If we get "stuck" with Leinart (not likely one way or another), we keep him behind Carr for a couple years and then keep the best one and trade the other for good value.

I admit this is potentially weak point. If Carr continues Dumpster diving he's not going to bring good value two years from now, not in a league where Culpepper went for a 2nd. Imagine what Carr's real worth is today! A mid-third? Less? No wonder they don't want to trade him.

Anyway, unless the Texans start playing hardball we're going to have our a55es handed to us in the draft.

They have to say it and they have to mean it. Leinart.

Are you serious, any GM with half a brain KNOWS WE AREN'T TAKING LIENART. Saying that we are isn't going to help our trade down efforts. How do you expect Casserly to do this, do you expect him to say, " Um, guys were going to take Lienart, even though we extended our very expensive QB 3 years, so we must be deadset on Lienart, since were going to take on that outragous cap hit at the QB position, but if you guys want him you can have him", does that make any sense. You are asking Charlie to play roulette with the draft, either some GM is dumb enough to bite, which isn't likely or the gun goes off and Charlie is stuck with a player he nor Kubiak ever wanted, yeah I would like him to sell that to Bob Mcnair.

That would make us more of a laughing stock than we already are. Any GM including Millen would see straight through that bluff.

If fact whens the last time you've ever seen a GM do that. Casserly is doing what other GMs do in his spot and that is give the company line "We are evaluating all options, including trade down offers, we are just excited we have the opportunity to draft a great player", and then tries not to show his hand to much.

Plus the only teams that are in extremely in dire need of a QB are slated to have one of the top 3 fall to them, which only weakens our trade down options.

NO has all the trade power, GMs know they aren't taking a QB and they KNOW Tenn. is.

We don't have hardly any trade down power anymore, because teams KNOW we aren't taking a QB and the KNOW NO isn't taking a QB either and that isn't even half of it.

If a team knows they don't have to go to the top spot to get their QB (or any other player) and can grab him at #2 then thats what they are going to do, first off the trading price is less and they don't have to worry about the kind of signing bonus a QB drafted #1 ovrl. is going to command.